151112IT

Page 41232

1 Dr. Dunjic who has been on this Srebrenica case for a long time and has

2 provided multiple reports.

3 So we'll continue to discuss this, though. It shouldn't take us

4 very long and try to encourage the Defence to be able to get this done

5 hopefully before the year.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I see there's a lot of discussion, there's a lot of

7 problems, et cetera. Could you provide the Chamber by the beginning of

8 next week with a more concrete plan on how to proceed.

9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Then the witness may be escorted in the courtroom.

11 [The witness takes the stand]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Kijac.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I -- my first request would be to speak up a little

15 bit and to come a bit closer to the microphone. And I further like to

16 remind you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given

17 at the beginning of your testimony, that you'll speak the truth, the

18 whole truth and nothing but the truth.

19 WITNESS: DRAGAN KIJAC [Resumed]

20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.

23 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Q. Good morning, sir.

25 A. Good morning.

Page 41233

1 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 33182.

2 Q. Now, this is a document you sent as deputy prime minister -- and

3 we're waiting for the B/C/S.

4 It's a document you sent as deputy prime minister on the 24th of

5 December, 1997 to the chief of the VRS General Staff at the time, the

6 minister of the interior and the chairman of the state commission for the

7 exchange of prisoners of war and missing persons.

8 We see in the first paragraph that you are mentioning: "The

9 international community and the Muslim-Croatian side have lately

10 intensified their activities relating to the exhumation of alleged mass

11 graves in the territory of Republika Srpska and carried out other

12 activities aimed at achieving political and security-related effects

13 against our republic."

14 We see you're calling a joint meeting. And, at the end, we see

15 you describing it as significant and important and direct that attendance

16 is mandatory.

17 So it was your position that the exhumation of possible mass

18 graves in the Republika Srpska was a significant national security issue;

19 right?

20 A. I think that this was created on the basis of a letter from the

21 state commission for the exchange of prisoners of war, so they wrote to

22 me in order to convene a joint meeting, to agree on measures, if I can

23 put it that way, related to the exhumation of alleged mass graves in the

24 territory of Republika Srpska.

25 So this document was created at the request of the state

Page 41234

1 commission for the exchange of prisoners and missing persons.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please answer the question, Witness. The

3 question was not triggered this letter to be sent. The question was

4 whether you considered the matter of national security concern.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It doesn't say that anywhere here.

6 I don't see in which paragraph there's a reference to that or that

7 Mr. Traldi mentioned it. If I can see it well, there's no mention of

8 that. If that is not the case, please help me find it, national

9 security. This refers to joint activities of the army, the Ministry of

10 Interior, and the state commission for the exchange of prisoners of war

11 in order to harmonise procedures and agree on measures in that direction.

12 I don't see any reference to national security. Now, whether I'm right

13 or not --

14 MR. TRALDI:

15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... first, do you see at the end

16 of the first paragraph where you say that the exhumation of graves is in

17 your judgement aimed at achieving political and security-related effects

18 against what you describe as "our republic"?

19 A. Political security-related, yes; but not national security. And

20 there's a reference to alleged mass graves. So we're not saying mass

21 graves. Alleged mass graves. In the territory of Republika Srpska.

22 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 33237.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you not insisting on an answer to your

24 question? Your question has still not been answered.

25 MR. TRALDI:

Page 41235

1 Q. Sir, did you or did you not consider the exhumation of alleged

2 mass graves, as we see in the document, to be a national security issue?

3 A. Not national security. Again, I am talking about political

4 security-related effects and possible propaganda. Because, at that time,

5 we did not know what kind of graves were involved.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I may draw your attention to the fact that it is

7 not political security but political and security-related effects. Would

8 that change your position, your answer?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, no, I don't see it here.

10 This is a joint meeting in order to have measures taken because at that

11 time there's lots of propaganda. We still do not have - how I do put

12 this? - we do not know the proportions of the graves. We don't have

13 identified persons or exhumations --

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... would you

15 please answer my question.

16 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour --

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: First paragraph last sentence.

18 MR. LUKIC: It's in English only, and we can find only in

19 English, not in B/C/S.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The witness could have answered that but he

21 addressed another matter.

22 In English, it says: "Aimed at achieving political and

23 security-related effects ..."

24 Do you see the similar formulation in the first paragraph,

25 Mr. Kijac.

Page 41236

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do. In all fairness in the

2 Serbian version it's a bit different. But that's it.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: How is it --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The translation is not exactly the

5 way you had put it.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Then please read the end of the last sentence of

7 paragraph 1.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "As well as other activities

9 calculated at achieving political security-related effects against our

10 republic."

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, could you take care of a revised

13 translation.

14 MR. TRALDI: We will.

15 Can we have 65 ter 33237, please.

16 Q. And we see the B/C/S on the screen already. You mentioned your

17 document was issued in response to a document coming from the exchange

18 commission. We see this one is sent on 2nd of December, 1997, that it's

19 sent to the president of the Assembly, Mr. Kalinic, to you, and to

20 General Colic at the Main Staff. We see a handwritten note at the top

21 right to call a meeting. Do you recognise that handwriting?

22 A. Yes, yes. This precedes the paper that you showed.

23 Q. And whose handwriting is it?

24 A. Mine.

25 Q. Turning to page 3 in both languages, we read in the last

Page 41237

1 paragraph that the gentleman sending you the letter considers there to be

2 exceptional security and political significance and potential detrimental

3 consequences to realising the stated activities of the opposing sides.

4 And if we turn back to page 2, in both languages, we see a

5 reference, second paragraph in the English, to naming exhumation

6 priorities in the municipality of Nevesinje and we see just a little bit

7 lower down that someone has been identified who can -- who the exchange

8 commission thinks could provide information, a survivor,

9 Jasminka Ploskic, who was held captive. Now in that context can we have

10 65 ter 33253.

11 Now, this is a document coming from the Mostar sector of the

12 Bosnian committee for missing persons, dated 8 October 2007. We read at

13 the top -- top of the text so just below the subject line, that

14 Republika Srpska military and paramilitary units had captured group of 76

15 Bosniak civilians at Jasenovo Do on the 26th of June, 1992 while running

16 away; 20 children, 27 men, 26 women, the youngest child being only seven

17 days old.

18 Turning to page 3 in both languages, we read at the bottom of the

19 page in the English and near the top in the B/C/S that three prisoners

20 from the group survived. The first name being Ms. Ploskic's again and

21 all three being women.

22 Turning to page 5 in English, 4 in B/C/S, we see that as of 2007,

23 42 persons had still not been found.

24 So my question for you is, sir, why was the fate of these people

25 so secret that it required a meeting of the highest levels of the

Page 41238

1 military, political and police institutions in the Republika Srpska?

2 A. First of all, this federal list of the commission for missing

3 persons, there is the first time I see it.

4 Secondly, Mr. Rosic, in the document that you showed me a moment

5 ago, could you please have it returned? He is asking to have a meeting

6 convened in order to agree on activities. And on the basis of this

7 letter sent by Mr. Rosic, who chaired the commission for exchanges at

8 that point, I think so, later on he was a judge of our constitutional

9 Court so he asked for such a meeting at top level. There's no reference

10 to prevention, but just to determining all relevant elements regarding

11 the situation these requests of the commissions for exchanges of

12 prisoners of war. It was probably a joint commission of the Muslim,

13 Croat and Serb sides, and they proposed certain measures at certain

14 locations.

15 As for this meeting that I convened, there's nothing there except

16 saying what kind of logistical support we can provide, what kind of

17 security measures and so on. Because at the time --

18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... sorry, at the time? Go

19 ahead.

20 A. Well, you interrupted me. You interrupted my train of thought.

21 It's hard for me to think of what it was that I was trying to say then.

22 So, the meeting was convened at the initiative of the chairman of

23 the commission for exchange of prisoners of war, Mr. Rosic. That can be

24 seen from the previous document that you showed me. He mentions certain

25 locations.

Page 41239

1 As for this third document, this is the first time I see it.

2 That is to say I was not involved in the exchange of prisoners of war.

3 We, in the Ministry of Interior, were supposed to secure certain

4 locations, physically, where this was requested --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't hear the end of

6 the sentence.

7 MR. TRALDI:

8 Q. Sir, before I move on --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Can I ask you one question. When I read through

10 that letter from the federal committee for missing persons, there is

11 concern that one might find out. That's what that letter includes, isn't

12 it? They may be aware of the micro-locations. They even -- they make it

13 public, not, Let's assist those people in finding their deceased loved

14 ones, and let's secure the locations and give our assistance.

15 The gist of it is difficult to understand as you understand it,

16 isn't it?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I haven't read this

18 letter. I don't know who this letter was sent to. The sector of Mostar,

19 no, was it sent to the commission of Republika Srpska?

20 MR. TRALDI:

21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... sir, I think you've

22 misunderstood the Judge' question, he is speaking of the letter that was

23 sent to you that bore your handwriting in the top corner.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's -- it may be helpful to have that one on the

25 screen again.

Page 41240

1 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 33237.

2 JUDGE ORIE: It's the letter I think you said triggered writing

3 your letter. You said, although not asked, I wrote that letter because I

4 had received another letter.

5 Now, if I look at this letter of the federal committee for

6 missing persons, where we find your handwriting on top of it, that is not

7 a letter, Would you please assist with securing the exhumations and make

8 it all safe and secure, it is -- they're at a point not only to know

9 where the mass graves are, micro-locations, but also they are going to

10 make that public. They want public exposure. They want a public

11 interview with one of the persons and that's not exactly what you told

12 us, is this letter or this action is about.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean, I don't know how to explain

14 this to you, Your Honour. I am a co-ordinator only. I never worked in

15 the commission for prisoners of war and missing persons. So in order to

16 have something done there, the Ministry of the Interior and the army have

17 to be called -- I mean, I don't know anything about graves. Absolutely

18 nothing. I am deputy prime minister, co-ordinating the work of the army

19 and police, and nothing else. And that is why I convened this meeting at

20 the initiative of Mr. Rosic, so that they would say what it is that was

21 supposed to be done.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you are giving us a picture that your

23 assistance is requested so that everything could be secured, that

24 everything would be safe, and that is not the language we find either in

25 this letter nor in the letter in which you invite others to participate.

Page 41241

1 But I leave to that. If you say that's your explanation, then it's your

2 explanation.

3 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender the last three documents, 65

4 ter 33182, 33237, and 33253.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, in the same sequence, the numbers

6 assigned would be?

7 THE REGISTRAR: P7655, P7656, and P7657, Your Honours.

8 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

9 JUDGE ORIE: P7655 up to and including P7657 are admitted into

10 evidence, but with the caveat that one of them needs a revised

11 translation.

12 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Your Honour. And that's the first one, I

13 believe.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

15 Witness, you were -- I think Mr. Traldi started tendering the

16 documents when I gave you an opportunity to give any brief further

17 comment. If you have given your explanation and if there's no wish to

18 add anything to that, we'll proceed; otherwise, we'd like to hear what

19 you'd like to add.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I have nothing to add. I

21 mean, Your Honour. I told you what this is all about and --

22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... if you have

23 nothing to add, then we'll proceed.

24 Please proceed.

25 MR. TRALDI: Can we have P1586.

Page 41242

1 Q. Now we see here a document you forwarded on the 16th of January,

2 1996 enclosing the text of a dispatch from the Main Staff sector for

3 intelligence and security sent to the MUP, and the dispatch had

4 requested, inter alia, that the minister - at the time you - order the

5 Bijeljina MUP to issue IDs with Serbian first and last names to a group

6 of the 10th Sabotage Detachment. We see if we zoom in at the bottom of

7 the page in the English and the middle of the page in the B/C/S, that

8 these are identified as "foreign citizens or on a list of individuals who

9 have been indicted by The Hague Tribunal."

10 Now, turning to page 2 in the English and at the bottom of page

11 one in the B/C/S, we read: "You are required to act on the request by

12 the GS VRS."

13 And then below that, we see: Minister Dragan Kijac.

14 So you ordered your subordinates, pursuant to this document sent

15 you by the Main Staff, to issue fake IDs to people indicted by this

16 Tribunal; right?

17 A. Yes. That's completely all right, considering that there is an

18 instruction to have co-operation between security and intelligence

19 services and the ministry. The intelligence service can, at any time,

20 request surveillance, checking of correspondence and communication of any

21 person at any time.

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... sir, I hadn't asked you for

23 a list of the powers or responsibilities of the intelligence service.

24 I'd asked you what we see here is you ordering your subordinates to issue

25 fake IDs to VRS soldiers thought to be indicted by The Hague Tribunal.

Page 41243

1 That's what we see here; right?

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think he answered that question.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Traldi, in the legal system of

4 Republika Srpska, at that time, the Tribunal did not exist. We had our

5 laws at the time. I believe co-operation with the ICTY was adopted only

6 in 2001. In 1996, I had absolutely no obligation to co-operate with

7 The Hague Tribunal.

8 MR. TRALDI: [Previous translation continues] ... can we see

9 P1677?

10 Q. Now this is an authorisation by General Mladic for travel to the

11 FRY dated the 11th of February, 1996 sent to the MUP. We see three

12 names, and the first is Drazen Erdemovic. These are three of the people

13 who had been issued -- well, let's put it this way: He is one of the

14 people who was issued a fake ID, pursuant to your order; right?

15 A. Excuse me, I got away from the microphone.

16 As a rule when new identities are created, one doesn't know for

17 whom. That's to say, Mr. Salapura did not write me a list of persons for

18 whom new IDs are needed. He just gave me a list of eight persons and

19 said false identities have to be created.

20 False identities were created very frequently. You have

21 thousands of books describing how intelligence agents travelled abroad

22 with false identities, so you have the Presidency of the SFRY --

23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... sir, I'm not interested in a

24 literature review.

25 How common was it that you created false identities for people

Page 41244

1 thought to be indicted by The Hague Tribunal?

2 A. Mr. Traldi, at that time, The Hague Tribunal did not exist, as

3 far as I'm concerned.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

5 A. Second, I did not know who these persons were. It was not the

6 practice to communicate to me their identities.

7 Q. You could read in the document that they were thought to be

8 indicted by the Tribunal. The practice allowed you to do that; right?

9 A. Practice is one thing. However, this request of the military

10 intelligence service is one which does not have to state the reason.

11 They can even --

12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you're again --

13 A. -- deceive me --

14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you're again, stating points

15 of doctrine that don't respond to the question. Is it your evidence that

16 you somehow missed that the request sent to you, that you forwarded to

17 your subordinates in its entirety, referred to these as people thought to

18 be indicted by The Hague Tribunal. Did you somehow miss that?

19 A. I don't have the list of those people.

20 Q. Sir --

21 A. Nowhere in that dispatch do I see who they are.

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

23 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 33196a.

24 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for that.

25 Witness, I have the following question for you: You said well,

Page 41245

1 the Tribunal didn't exist for us. We were not under an obligation to

2 co-operate. Now, whether that's true or not, I just leave that apart.

3 But, here, this looks as if it is a small operation which is frustrating

4 and obstructing the work of the Tribunal. Would you agree?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From that point of view, yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But --

8 JUDGE ORIE: But you actively participated in an effort to

9 obstruct and frustrate the work of this Tribunal by sending -- by this

10 correspondence?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only sent a letter, if I had

12 wanted to hide something, if I had no authority to do this, I could have

13 made only a phone call. You have to understand that at that time I was

14 acting in accordance with the laws of Republika Srpska and the laws

15 governing security.

16 JUDGE ORIE: The laws, if I understand the meaning of what a law

17 is, never say, Do this or do that. They give powers, and by the use of

18 those powers - and that's what I'm asking you about - you actively

19 participated in an evident to obstruct and frustrate the work of this

20 Tribunal. Is that accurate?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm telling you again, that I had

22 absolutely no information which people are concerned. The letter doesn't

23 say it.

24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I -- I leave it

25 to that. I mean whether it's Mr. A, B, and C or X, Y, and Z who were

Page 41246

1 given fake IDs is not relevant if Mr. A, B and C and Mr. X, Y and Z are

2 defined as persons who were on a list of individuals who have been

3 indicted. I leave it to that.

4 Mr. Traldi please proceed?

5 MR. TRALDI: Can we have the bottom of this page in B/C/S.

6 Q. This is a portion of testimony by the Omarska commander

7 Zeljko Mejakic in his own trial in Bosnia and he is asked, "How did you

8 go to Serbia?"

9 He says, "I simply sat on a bus and used a forged identity card

10 issued to me by the people there. Actually, it was not a forged identity

11 card in terms of the authenticity of the document itself and the stamp.

12 The Ministry of Interior gave me an identity card with a different name,

13 and with this identify card I crossed into Serbia and stayed there until

14 I surrendered to the Tribunal.

15 Was Mr. Mejakic -- Mr. Mejakic was also one of the fugitives who

16 got a false ID from the MUP to avoid arrest by the Tribunal; right?

17 A. I'm hearing for the first time about Mr. Mejakic. I have no idea

18 who he is. I don't see that passage that you've read out, Mr. Traldi. I

19 would like to see it. If you can highlight it here, but I don't know

20 anything about Mr. Mejakic. Who is he? Is that the group?

21 JUDGE ORIE: It's at the bottom part in B/C/S.

22 MR. TRALDI: And.

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...

24 MR. TRALDI:

25 Q. You see the words "MUP" at the very end, and if we turn to the

Page 41247

1 top of the next page, you see him explain crossing into Serbia.

2 A. "How did you go to Serbia?" Is that the beginning of the

3 passage? It's the one paragraph before last.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... we need the top of the next

5 page to get his explanation of crossing --

6 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's for context it's good that the witness

7 reads the last few lines of the previous page in which he, indeed,

8 explains how he travelled using a forged identity card.

9 But could we go to the bottom of that page in B/C/S.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Of the previous page in B/C/S.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please read the part from where you

12 said -- it's the three, four last lines. And once you've done, please

13 tell us so that we can move to the next page.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can move to the next page.

15 JUDGE ORIE: First two lines is what you're supposed to read.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read it, Your Honour.

17 MR. TRALDI:

18 Q. Two follow-up questions, if we can have the previous page in

19 B/C/S back.

20 As we get it, yesterday you repeated to this Court as fact

21 evidence, you said you'd heard from other witnesses in other trials. If

22 you follow the trials at the ICTY, how could it possibly be true that you

23 have no idea who the Omarska camp commander is?

24 A. I don't follow trials, Mr. Traldi. I would have time to -- I

25 wouldn't have time to do anything in my life if I followed trials. But I

Page 41248

1 just happened to read something, one part of one trial. If I had been

2 following trials, I wouldn't have been able to do my normal job from 8.00

3 to 4.00 p.m. every day.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you keep your answers short.

5 Who provided you with the portion you did read?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe I've read it, maybe I've seen

7 it. I could have seen one bit of something. But I'm at work from 8.00

8 to 4.00.

9 JUDGE ORIE: My question is: Who gave it to you? You said you

10 read a certain portion. You happened to have read --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember that.

12 JUDGE ORIE: That's an answer to my question.

13 Mr. Traldi.

14 Could you please keep your answers short and just tell us what it

15 is.

16 MR. TRALDI:

17 Q. Now, looking about halfway down the page in the B/C/S,

18 Mr. Mejakic is asked how he left the police force and when and for what

19 reason. He answers: "In November 1996, simply put, in 1996, the

20 then-minister of the interior, Kijac, Dragan Kijac, told me through the

21 then-chief of the Security Services Centre, Ranko Mijic, to leave the

22 service and stay away."

23 How could you have relayed this message to him if you did not

24 know who he was?

25 A. Many people were terminated in 1996. I would like to see the

Page 41249

1 report. But I believe we terminated around 500 or over 500 employees for

2 different reasons. I don't have that report with me. I would like to

3 have it. But in 1996, a large number of people were let go. I would not

4 like to speculate now, but I think the figure could be as high as 500

5 because that is the year --

6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you are expounding on matters which are not

8 in the question. I do understand that without consulting documents, you

9 have no recollection about this individual case. That's how I understand

10 your answer.

11 Mr. Traldi, please proceed.

12 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 33179.

13 Q. You mentioned people dismissed in 1996. As we see here, one of

14 the people that you appointed to the MUP in 1996 assigned as your advisor

15 was Simo Drljaca, the wartime chief of the Prijedor SJB and Mejakic's

16 boss; right?

17 A. I see that. It's true. I see this, a decision concerning

18 Simo Drljaca; that is, that he is dismissed at -- as the chief of the

19 Prijedor public security centre and appointed advisor to the Ministry of

20 Interior of Republika Srpska.

21 MR. TRALDI: I tender the document, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

23 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 33179 receives exhibit number

24 P7658, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

Page 41250

1 MR. TRALDI: Now, can we have 65 ter 33255.

2 Q. As it comes up, we saw one of the people General Mladic was

3 telling your MUP to let cross the border was Drazen Erdemovic. This is

4 an article from 22 March 1996, titled: "I killed 'only' hundreds of

5 people." Looking at the third paragraph of the text, we see Erdemovic,

6 we see his name in the second and fourth paragraphs. We see he said that

7 at a place referred to as Pilice farm --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Could the portion in B/C/S be enlarged which is

9 relevant for the --

10 MR. TRALDI: It's below the words, "It was shot in the heads."

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but in the B/C/S those words do not appear.

12 Yes. A little bit to the left. Further to -- no, that's to the right.

13 Yes.

14 MR. TRALDI: And --

15 JUDGE ORIE: That's the portion you read, Mr. Traldi.

16 MR. TRALDI:

17 Q. We see a reference to place called Pilice Farm. We see a

18 reference to a lieutenant-colonel explaining the task, that a bus with

19 Muslim civilians, men who should be liquidated. Below that we read,

20 "Killing commenced immediately. Civilians in groups of tens were taken

21 out of the buses and were taken to the field." We read --

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please wait a moment. It has to be enlarged

23 again.

24 MR. TRALDI: At the top of the second column in the B/C/S,

25 please.

Page 41251

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Overlapping speakers] ... thank you.

2 MR. TRALDI:

3 Q. We read that Erdemovic thinks he killed between 70 to 100 people

4 himself and estimates the full number of killed as close to 1200. We

5 discussed when you acquired information about the genocide at Srebrenica

6 last time you were here. You would have noticed this article; right?

7 A. No. No, I don't even see when --

8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

9 A. -- this article was written. I've never read it.

10 Q. I'm now going to ask Ms. Stewart to show a video 65 ter 33270a.

11 The transcript has been confirmed so we can play it only once.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, do you have any information about date

13 of the publication of this document you just showed us.

14 MR. TRALDI: I believe I'd put it on the record.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I missed that.

16 MR. TRALDI: As 22nd of March, 1996.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yep.

18 MR. TRALDI: And I should have said that the name of the

19 newspaper is Slobodna Bosna.

20 [Video-clip played]

21 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

22 "Reporter: Immediately upon her arrival in Sarajevo, Madeleine

23 Albright held a press conference at the American embassy which focussed

24 on the work of the Hague Tribunal, and the visit to a mass grave near

25 Janja. She said that this was an important step that provides evidence

Page 41252

1 of systematic killing of about 1.000 people and that this place is also

2 different from other places because ...

3 "Madeleine Albright: [In English] ... we actually have evidence

4 supplied by the killers themselves and corroborating the story that we

5 saw. I was able to take with me on this trip investigators from the war

6 crimes Tribunal so that ... and they were able to explain to me what they

7 were seeing and were preparing their work.

8 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

9 "Reporter: 'Peace can be reached only if all the perpetrators are

10 punished, both collectively and individually.' Madeleine Albright says

11 she does not believe the entire people to be responsible for the crimes

12 but she thinks that is something that people from this region have to

13 face.

14 "Madeleine Albright: [In English] It is very difficult to deal

15 with the fact that scores of people must have known what was going on and

16 that this kind of barbarism took place in this area is disgusting.

17 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

18 "Reporter: After the formal meetings, Ambassador Albright was

19 welcomed at Dom Ljiljana by the US ambassador in our country, John

20 Menzies, after which the esteemed guest gave an inspired speech about

21 Bosnia in the time of war, Bosnia today and Bosnia in the future. Early

22 on during her first visit to Sarajevo when she came to set the

23 cornerstone of the US embassy, Albright expressed her country's political

24 viewpoint regarding our country, speaking about Sarajevo as an undivided

25 capital. 'Even though there was a lot of scepticism, the people of

Page 41253

1 Sarajevo proved that the opposite was true.'"

2 MR. TRALDI: I think for efficiency we've seen the part we need.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are at 2:16.6, where we stopped looking at

4 the video.

5 MR. TRALDI:

6 Q. Did you also miss Albright's press conference in Bosnia about

7 this mass grave?

8 A. Yes, I'm seeing this report for the first time.

9 MR. TRALDI: Can we have P348, page 47.

10 JUDGE ORIE: But, again you see this now for the first time. Did

11 you not know that such a press conference was given at all, I mean, apart

12 from whether you looked at this or not?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew that Madeleine Albright made

14 a visit to Bosnia-Herzegovina and that she visited someplace along the

15 Drina. I don't know exactly where. Security was provided by our State

16 Security Service.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And you didn't know that that was a place which was

18 considered to be a mass grave and that she was accompanied by

19 investigators of this Tribunal?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I must tell you that I learned that

21 later. Much later. I stopped being minister of the interior in

22 mid-1997, and in the beginning of 1998, I was already living in Serbia.

23 So from 1997, I've had absolutely nothing to do and no powers within the

24 Ministry of Interior.

25 JUDGE ORIE: So a non-evasive answer to the question that was

Page 41254

1 earlier put to you by Mr. Traldi would have been: I missed it at the

2 time, but I learned about it later. Where he asked whether you missed

3 Albright's press conference in Bosnia about this mass grave. You learned

4 about her visit and all that later and not when you provided security for

5 her visit?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, I see from this

7 press conference that it was broadcast by the Radio Television

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It's a big question what was transmitted by the

9 Radio Television of Republika Srpska. You have to understand at that

10 time --

11 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... witness, you're

12 evading my question.

13 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

14 MR. TRALDI: I apologise for my own ambiguity in calling the

15 document up, or error. Can we have page 44 and I'm asking for the B/C/S

16 original rather than the transcript.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that page 44 of P348.

18 MR. TRALDI: Of P348.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

20 MR. TRALDI: And we have the correct English page because I had

21 not made an error that time.

22 Q. Now, we see here an entry in General Mladic's notebook for a

23 meeting with Karadzic on 22nd March 1996, the same date as the Slobodna

24 Bosna article. We see he records Karadzic as saying: "A big show was

25 put on for Albright. She expected they would find 1200 Muslim bodies at

Page 41255

1 Pilica but they found some five bodies."

2 Now, 1200, that's the same number of bodies that's referred to in

3 the Slobodna Bosna article; right?

4 A. I cannot confirm that for you.

5 Q. Now, we see the fourth bullet, someone named Fico was here last

6 night and he says that those two would sell the story about Srebrenica to

7 The Hague.

8 You remember you confirmed last time that Frenki Simatovic had a

9 deputy named Dragan Filipovic, also known as Fico; right?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Do you remember that he had such a deputy or do you just fail to

12 remember that you confirmed it when you were testifying last month?

13 A. I think the answer is yes ... I don't see what the context is.

14 Fico can be this Fico or that Fico. It is correct that he had a

15 co-worker whose nickname was Fico. I cannot remember the name now but I

16 think it was Filipovic, Fico, or something like that.

17 Q. And looking above that, if we can zoom in on the third hyphen, we

18 see a name. The first name is Dragisa and the last name is a little bit

19 difficult to read in the original. Can you help us with that?

20 A. It's very hard for me to read this text, but I'll make an effort.

21 I can't read it. Could you please try to read it for me, if you have the

22 text? I really cannot. He will ...

23 Q. It starts in the English that Dragisa, and in English, it's

24 translated as: "Milic will come and he will show a cassette about her

25 visit ... we will see it ..."

Page 41256

1 Now, you had a deputy named Dragisa Mihic; right?

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it Mihic or Milic?

3 MR. TRALDI: The deputy is Mihic.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mihic.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Mihic, I don't see the date.

6 It's the 28th of March, 1993, is it, Mr. Traldi? I can't see the date up

7 here.

8 MR. TRALDI:

9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... sir, the 22nd of March,

10 1996. Same date as the Slobodna Bosna article; reference to the Albright

11 press conference we just saw.

12 A. Yes, I see here the 22nd of March, but I don't see exactly which

13 year. So 1996? Well, at that time, Dragisa Mihic was not my deputy.

14 Q. What was his position at that time?

15 A. At that time, in 1996, Dragisa Mihic was head of the state

16 security sector. He was not deputy minister of the interior. He was

17 head of the state security sector.

18 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I see the time. I'd tender the two

19 documents I used on this topic, 65 ter 33255, and --

20 JUDGE ORIE: That's number one. Madam Registrar.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Receives Exhibit number P7659, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.

23 MR. TRALDI: And 33270a, the video.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Receives exhibit number P7660.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.

Page 41257

1 Yes, and it's time for a break. It's already beyond the time.

2 Witness, would you please follow the usher. We'd like to see you

3 back in 20 minutes.

4 [The witness stands down]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, about time.

6 MR. TRALDI: I was about to address that, Your Honour. Though

7 it's been a little bit more difficult than usual to anticipate time with

8 this witness, I do have one very brief topic to deal with. I wouldn't

9 think it would be more than ten minutes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break, and we'll resume at five minutes

11 to 11.00.

12 --- Recess taken at 10.37 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.

15 MR. TRALDI: Just for ease of reference in the record, Your

16 Honours, I'm told the image at 1:1.7 seconds in the video just admitted,

17 which is P7660, appears -- or a very similar image appears at P7267.

18 And while the witness comes, in for efficiency, if we could have

19 P4234.

20 [Prosecution counsel confer]

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the number, Mr. Traldi. I

23 think I heard P4234 but ...

24 MR. TRALDI: You did. And my speed of speech must have been off,

25 but it is 4234 that I'd asked for.

Page 41258

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 [The witness takes the stand]

4 MR. TRALDI:

5 Q. Sir, finally and briefly, I want to return to your evidence about

6 the Milos group. Now this is a proposal to the RS MUP, attention the

7 deputy secretary of the SNB, sent on the 20th of October, 1993. At that

8 time this proposal would have gone to you; right?

9 A. [No interpretation]

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you repeat your answer. We didn't receive

11 interpretation because you were not close to the microphone, I suppose.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was sent to me.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

14 MR. TRALDI:

15 Q. And in the second paragraph, we read: "In July 1991," and this

16 is a proposal for promotion and decoration for Predrag Radulovic. We

17 read: "In July 1991, he was appointed before the Banja Luka SNB sector

18 as a liaison officer for the contact with the MUP Serbia."

19 So you knew that Mr. Radulovic, who you discussed last time, was

20 responsible for liaising with MUP Serbia; right?

21 A. Yes, that's what this letter says.

22 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 33289.

23 JUDGE ORIE: But the question was whether you knew that. You are

24 not invited to tell us what the letter says because we can read that

25 but -- therefore, you did know that?

Page 41259

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. In June 1991, I worked at the

2 Banja Luka Security Services Centre, and I did not have any duties in the

3 state security.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, again, the question is not whether you were

5 in a position where you should have known or could have known. The

6 question is whether - and this letter is presented to you which makes it

7 very likely - that you knew about this appointment and this position of

8 Predrag Radulovic. Did you know that or did you not know that?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

10 JUDGE ORIE: You received the letter in which that is stated, but

11 you did not read it or you did not ... what made it that this letter

12 which you said would reach your desk or your office, that that

13 information didn't come through.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to take a look at the

15 second page as well, if possible, Your Honour, where the text continues.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Well --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may --

18 JUDGE ORIE: You're not here to interpret letters. You're here

19 to answer questions.

20 Did you know --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I just need to read it.

22 JUDGE ORIE: No. Whether you know it or not is your own

23 recollection. If you say, I don't remember, then perhaps it may be that,

24 looking further at the document may refresh your recollection.

25 But did you know or did you not know that he was appointed as --

Page 41260

1 to liaise with the MUP Serbia?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

4 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 33289. And it's only in B/C/S at

5 the moment. So if we could zoom in on point 1. This is a document dated

6 29 July 1994 and coming from Nedjelko Kesic, the head of the -- by then

7 the RDB in Banja Luka. At point 1 we see that Mr. Radulovic is put in

8 charge of line 2 of the RDB in Banja Luka; right?

9 A. I think I did not approve this reassignment.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This was not the question. Please answer the

11 question.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat the

13 question again.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all other

15 microphones please be switched off when the witness is speaking. Thank

16 you.

17 MR. TRALDI:

18 Q. Could you just read for us beginning at the word "Radulovic" and

19 ending with the semi-colon, before the number 2.

20 A. "Radulovic Predrag, to the position of head of department O 2 in

21 the centre of the RDB Banja Luka." If that's the paragraph you had in

22 mind.

23 May I proceed, Mr. Traldi?

24 JUDGE ORIE: No, you should wait for a question.

25 MR. TRALDI:

Page 41261

1 Q. What we see here is Mr. Kesic recommending him for a promotion;

2 right?

3 A. Yes. But, Mr. Traldi, do allow me to continue. Just two

4 sentences.

5 This was done by the minister of the interior of

6 Republika Srpska. This is his request sent to me. As far as I can

7 remember, I did not approve this.

8 Q. Now, Mr. --

9 A. That is to say --

10 Q. Mr. Kesic, who worked with Radulovic, seems to think he was doing

11 a pretty good job; right?

12 A. That was probably his opinion, but this was the opinion and

13 position of the minister of the interior. And this was explicitly done

14 at the proposal of the minister of the interior. You see that it's the

15 minister's office there, and what is sent to me is a request --

16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... witness, you've

17 answered the question by the first one line. Stop discussing the whole

18 of the document to -- just limit yourself to answer the question.

19 Please proceed.

20 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 33314.

21 Q. Now, this is one of the Milos documents dated 5th of August, 1992

22 that says: "We've been asked by the chief of the Banja Luka SNB to urge

23 through you that the agreed help in technical equipment be provided."

24 Now, what we see here is the Milos group relaying a request from

25 SNB Banja Luka to MUP Serbia, consistent with their role as a liaison;

Page 41262

1 right?

2 A. I'm sorry, I see what it is that the Milos group is asking for.

3 However, there is not going through the under-secretary. This does not

4 go through the state security sector. For five times now I have told you

5 and I've pointed out that they were not allowed to communicate with other

6 services. The service of Serbia, the service the Montenegro, without the

7 agreement of the head of the sector.

8 So they did this incognito. I am not aware of that.

9 Q. So when Mr. Kesic wrote to you in October 1993 and said, Promote

10 Predrag Radulovic because I appointed him liaison with MUP Serbia, did

11 you fire Kesic for appointing a liaison rather than going through you?

12 A. That's not exactly that the situation was like that. It's not

13 that I just could have dismissed people. You have my document in which

14 I'm responding to the Minister of the Interior that I do not want to act

15 on his orders because I thought that at that moment that, as the head of

16 the state security, I need to appoint people at my own discretion. You

17 have that document.

18 And that's not the only time when the minister tried on his own

19 to promote certain people precisely for these reasons, and we did not

20 allow that. And that's why, in 1994, I was replaced because I did not

21 want to promote certain people to certain positions as had been suggested

22 to me by the minister of the interior.

23 MR. TRALDI: Can we have P3211.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do that, I noticed that in this Milos

25 document it specifically said that the activity was approved also by the

Page 41263

1 minister of the MUP of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

2 You have read that? Any comment on this specific reference to

3 this approval?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We supported that proposal, yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

6 Please proceed.

7 MR. TRALDI:

8 Q. Now, this is one of the Milos reports, this one from 30

9 April 1992. We see at the first sentence that it reports on the

10 take-over of Prijedor on that date.

11 Sir, you don't contest that this Milos report is accurate; right?

12 A. I cannot give any comment on this. I don't know about this. The

13 Milos group never addressed the state security sector, and it can be seen

14 that this document was not sent to us --

15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Sir. Sir.

16 A. -- and, at that time --

17 Q. All I asked you was: Do you or don't you contest the accuracy of

18 this report, that the most important buildings in Prijedor were occupied

19 and all roads leading to the town were blocked by armed formations of the

20 Serbian people on 30 April 1992.

21 You know that to be true; right?

22 A. I cannot confirm that for you, Mr. Traldi. In April 1992 I was

23 in Sarajevo. You know --

24 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

25 A. -- Prijedor --

Page 41264

1 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We do not understand what

3 the witness is saying. We cannot hear him at all.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, again, even if you are in Sarajevo, you

5 sometimes have knowledge of what happened elsewhere. The simple question

6 is: Wherever you were, but you can confirm that these first two lines of

7 this report reflect what actually happened.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, really, I cannot

9 confirm that for you because I worked --

10 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... no, no -- the

11 reasons why you can't confirm. You can't confirm. Leave it to that.

12 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

13 MR. TRALDI: Can we have P6890. It will be another Milos report.

14 Q. As it comes up, the Chamber has received evidence from

15 Mr. Radulovic that he signed reports to MUP Serbia Milos but did not sign

16 reports to the Republika Srpska national security sector that way. Would

17 that explain why you don't recognise the format of the Milos reports?

18 A. This is the first time I see this format. This kind of format

19 could not have reached me.

20 First of all, we have to look at the date. What is the date? It

21 is only from August --

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... sir, I'm going to be very

23 quick with this document. This is the Milos report that Mr. Lukic showed

24 you during direct examination. You have no explanation for how this

25 report could have wound up in the DB Serbia archive, do you?

Page 41265

1 A. Well, yes, to the DB of the Republic of Serbia, but not the DB of

2 Republika Srpska. Obviously it did arrive somewhere, but the archives

3 that Republika Srpska had, no, this did not reach that. This kind of

4 report would have to be addressed to someone. In our case, everybody

5 would have to write up exactly who composed this, who drafted it, and so

6 on, and pseudonyms could not be used for signatures. This is the first

7 time I see this document. Actually, it was first shown to me in court

8 and I don't see the date, and at that time I don't know whether I was

9 head of the sector or whether it was the late Slobodan Skipina who was

10 there. Because I came to head the sector only at the end of August,

11 beginning of September.

12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... sir --

13 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, that completes my questions for this

14 witness.

15 I tender 65 ter 33314 and ask that 65 ter 33289 be marked for

16 identification. 33314 being the Milos request that had been approved by

17 the RS minister of the interior; and 33289 being Kesic's proposal to

18 promote Radulovic in July 1994.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, 33314 would receive number.

20 THE REGISTRAR: P7661, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

22 65 ter 33289.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Receives exhibit number P7662, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Marked for identification.

25 Mr. Lukic, are you ready to re-examine the witness?

Page 41266

1 MR. LUKIC: Give me one second, Your Honour.

2 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Kijac.

4 A. Good day.

5 Q. You started a long time ago, so I will try to remind you of

6 certain things.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P7586 on our

8 screens.

9 Q. While we're waiting for the document, I'm going to start

10 explaining to you.

11 This is the document where it says that you chaired the meeting

12 on the 10th of November, 1993 and that on the 11th of November, the

13 acting minister Tomo Kovac chaired the meeting?

14 MR. LUKIC: Can we have pages 4 in both versions, please. And

15 we'll need paragraph 2.

16 Q. [Interpretation] You explained that it wasn't possible for you to

17 chair this session and that, indeed, you did not chair it.

18 This is what I'd like to ask you: Was Tomo Kovac ever minister

19 of the interior of Republika Srpska?

20 A. If I can remember, acting minister, yes; minister, no.

21 The document says "acting minister Tomo Kovac" as well, if I can

22 see this paragraph well.

23 Q. Now, in relation to this chairmanship, could it happen sometimes

24 that the collegium of the National Security Service would be chaired by

25 someone from public security?

Page 41267

1 A. No, not even the minister. The collegium of the National

2 Security Service is chaired by the head of the National Security Service

3 or the head of the state security sector, irrespective of the presence of

4 the minister or the deputy minister of the interior who were above them

5 in terms of hierarchy. It could never happen that someone from public

6 security even including the minister of the interior who was the highest

7 in the hierarchy, no one like that could have chaired the meeting. So I

8 couldn't have chaired it either. There are about ten assistant ministers

9 here and I don't know anything about the fields that they deal with.

10 Legal affairs, finance, and so on. So crime prevention as head of the

11 state security sector, I'm not involved in that, or general

12 administrative affairs, or police affairs or police --

13 I really do apologise to the interpreters. I get so carried

14 away.

15 And, in addition to that, as far as I know, the chiefs of public

16 security are there, and they were not under the head of state security.

17 Q. Thank you. Let us look at P7577. We'll see on the screen that

18 photograph showing people about whom you were asked if they shared the

19 same goals.

20 Do you recall it now?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And then you were shown the following document.

23 Could we see P7578. It's a document from the Ministry of

24 Interior, the public security sector -- state security sector -

25 correction - dated 5 July 1994, Belgrade, the Republic of Serbia.

Page 41268

1 And below, it's written in the last sentence that was put to you:

2 "We are now entering the decisive phase of the fight to achieve the

3 common goals of all the Serbian lands ..."

4 Before 1994 - so we are talking about 1991, 1992 - do you

5 remember whether the Croatian and Muslim leadership received offers to

6 remain in the joint, the common state?

7 A. Before the war, yes. There was also the initiative of

8 Adil Zulfikarpasic that Bosnia remain whole, and if I remember correctly

9 an offer was made to them that Alija Izetbegovic become the president of

10 the federal government and that Bosnia remain whole and part of the

11 then-Yugoslavia, the so-called rump Yugoslavia as it was at the time.

12 Q. What was the answer of Mr. Izetbegovic?

13 A. Organising the referendum in which the Serbian people did not

14 participate and proclamation of independence, which actually led to the

15 conflict.

16 Q. Thank you. Now I should like to call up P7581.

17 We will see a transcript of a video-clip where

18 Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, is speaking. On this page, only one sentence

19 is left where Arkan says:

20 "We don't take any more prisoners. We will kill every Fascist

21 soldier we catch. They must know that."

22 Below that, among the participants in the middle, there's a

23 letter Z, and it says "captured Croatian soldier."

24 So contrary to this claim, we see that one of the participants in

25 this conversation is a captured Croatian soldier. What was the

Page 41269

1 information available to your service? Did you know how Arkan treated

2 prisoners?

3 A. You see, I said last time, and I said that in my statement, Arkan

4 appeared in Bijeljina at the time when Bosnia-Herzegovina was united as a

5 state. After that, he was no longer present in those lands until the

6 fall of Krajina, and then occurred the misunderstanding and the strenuous

7 demand of General Mladic that he withdraw, because he had taken upon

8 himself to acted as military police. And as far as I know, at the

9 demands of General Mladic, he left. He had been there for 15 or 20 days

10 in the areas of Banja Luka and Sanski Most, but we did not deal with

11 Raznjatovic at the time because we had different concerns. Our

12 municipalities were falling, the regular Croatian army was entering the

13 territory of the Republika Srpska together with the 5th Corps and within

14 that month or month and a half, from August and September, nine or ten

15 municipalities fell. Prijedor and Banja Luka were in danger and Arkan

16 probably appeared to assist, as he saw it, the Serbian people. However,

17 since I knew from before about the clear stance of General Mladic, namely

18 that he did not allow any paramilitary organisation and as soon as the

19 Army of Republika Srpska was established, he chased out across the Drina

20 river all paramilitary units or placed them under his command. Because

21 in those first two month, April and May, there were paramilitary units

22 along the entire bank of the Drina, from Bratunac onwards. These were

23 people who mostly came were Serbia who imposed themselves because the

24 authorities were not functioning, and they created some independent

25 paramilitary units which, in that vacuum before the army was established,

Page 41270

1 became an important factor. And then there was the arrest of

2 Yellow Wasps in Zvornik.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.

4 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, if the witness is going to gave

5 page-long speeches that go well beyond every question Mr. Lukic asks it

6 creates risk -- and that raise new topics and at the end of the last

7 answer, a new event that hadn't been discussed on cross-examination, it

8 raises the possibilities of going into new areas on recross, and I just

9 ask that Mr. Lukic exert some control.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: And I have another observation to make at this

13 moment.

14 Mr. Lukic, earlier you said that the presence of -- you -- first

15 of all, you referred us to letter Z --

16 MR. LUKIC: Yes --

17 JUDGE ORIE: And that's the list of those who are present that

18 appears in the B/C/S version; however, not in the English version so

19 would you take care in order for English-speaking persons to be able to

20 follow, to take care that that will be translated as well. Because it is

21 only in B/C/S.

22 Second, would you refrain from doing the job of the Chamber,

23 because you said: So contrary to this claim, whether the presence of a

24 Croatian soldier contradicts what Mr. Arkan said, that is, that they are

25 going to kill every prisoner, is for the Chamber to determine, and

Page 41271

1 certainly not something you should put to a witness.

2 And I think, if Mr. Traldi would not have intervened, we soon

3 would have done so. Long speeches; link with the question very weak, if

4 at all. So would you please keep better control of the testimony of your

5 witness.

6 Please proceed.

7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Although this witness did

8 answer my several following questions, but I will move on to the next

9 topic.

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kijac, you were asked last month if there

11 were non-Serbs in the National Security Service, and you said there were

12 none at Pale. You said that the people who joined the service were Serbs

13 who managed to leave the city -- to get out of the city.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us a reference, Mr. Lukic, so that I

15 can re-read that portion of the evidence of the witness.

16 MR. LUKIC: I don't have it with me. I don't know how it

17 happened.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Was it when he answered one of your questions or was

19 it when he answered one of Mr. Traldi's questions.

20 MR. LUKIC: Mr. Traldi's questions. We'll find it.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Did it ever happen that somebody applied to the National Security

24 Service and was rejected if he was a Muslim or a Croat?

25 A. You mean in Sarajevo? No. People even got out with a five- or

Page 41272

1 six-month delay because they had been so badly abused in Sarajevo.

2 Q. Did Muslims and Croats apply to you? Did they come to you in

3 Pale and say, We want to work?

4 A. No.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at P7587. We need

6 page two in both versions. Let us just see what kind of document this

7 is. It's dated 2nd July 1995, RDB, the state security sector of the

8 Ministry of Interior of Republika Srpska, sent to the deputy minister of

9 the interior and the public security sector of Bijeljina to the chief in

10 person.

11 Q. One paragraph was put to you from the second page in both

12 versions, so let's move to the second page, paragraph 2 in B/C/S, and

13 paragraph 3 in English.

14 The discussion was about whether it was possible to get

15 information directly from these people or information was derived by

16 surveillance and interception.

17 A. It says here based on comments made by two Muslims, it can be

18 concluded it's probably a conversation that was caught by ham radio

19 operators.

20 Q. Just a moment. In the last third of that paragraph, it says:

21 "One of the collocutors who is abroad, advised his friend," does this

22 indicate surveillance or a direct interview with you?

23 A. No, no, they did not talk to us. We didn't have such

24 communication. All that we caught from Sarajevo were intercepted

25 communications.

Page 41273

1 Q. Thank you. Let us look briefly at P7025. You were asked,

2 regarding this document, if you were listening or watching Studio B. You

3 said it was a local radio station and then the suggestion was that

4 Belgrade was dozens of kilometres away from you.

5 How far is Belgrade from the place where you were working in

6 July 1995?

7 A. 350 kilometres.

8 Q. Were you able, ever, to follow Studio B from Pale?

9 A. Even with their current equipment, Studio B covers only a few

10 municipalities in Belgrade. It's a city station.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see P3355.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your microphone.

14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

15 Q. [Interpretation] We can see here that the Ministry of Interior of

16 Republika Srpska, the office of the minister, on 23rd September 1996 is

17 sending to the minister of justice and administration, Mr. Goran

18 Neskovic, the following report.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's see the next page.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Do we have a full translation in English?

21 Especially for the first page.

22 Could we go back for a second.

23 B/C/S as well, please. I see some kind of a title below where it

24 says Ministry of Justice and administration, Mr. Goran Neskovic. Then I

25 see something which looks like "predmet."

Page 41274

1 MR. LUKIC: You are right, Your Honour, this line is missing from

2 the English version. I can read it.

3 JUDGE ORIE: If you would briefly read it.

4 MR. LUKIC: Yes. It says -- I'll read in B/C/S.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] "Reference information, submitted

7 to."

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

10 Q. [Interpretation] At the top of the page, the first paragraph in

11 this document, it says: "When Muslim forces made a breakthrough from

12 Srebrenica last year along the Buljim, Konjevic Polje, Cerska, Kamenica,

13 Baljkovici stretch, there were several individual and mass killings among

14 the Muslims. These killings were organised by senior officers so that

15 the chaos in one part of the column would draw the attention and combat

16 activities of the VRS to that part of the column. Thus, the Muslim side

17 created more favourable conditions for the breakthrough of the front part

18 of the column where most military and civilian municipal leaders were."

19 MR. LUKIC: And can we see the last page of this document,

20 please.

21 Q. [Interpretation] You remember this document, Mr. Kijac?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I'm going to show you another document and then I'm going to put

24 a question to you.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need 65 ter number 4079.

Page 41275

1 Q. While we're waiting for the document, let me ask you: Did you

2 have any knowledge about what was happening in Srebrenica? What kind of

3 knowledge did you have? What kind of knowledge did you not have?

4 A. Well, all our knowledge is contained in the dispatches, as

5 regards what operatives wrote and what reached me, I mean, I don't know

6 what period you're referring to now but we were following what was

7 happening in Srebrenica through two operatives who were in the area of

8 Srebrenica in the period between, say, the 8th, 9th until, say, 15th or

9 16th, until the column went through. Because basically we were

10 interested only in the column as regards Srebrenica, because the column

11 could inflict a great deal of harm if it had moved in a different

12 direction through certain villages, Serb villages and you can see this on

13 the basis of our dispatches that most of our operative efforts were in

14 that sense. That was our main work to collect intelligence as to where

15 the column would pass. So that our forces could adapt to that situation

16 in that sense.

17 I don't know what knowledge you mean, I mean, what other

18 knowledge you mean.

19 Q. What was put to you was --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could I first seek clarification in the report we

21 saw before this one, reference was made to the 280th IBLB and it is

22 suggested to us, although with a question mark, that that would stand for

23 the Eastern Bosnia Light Battalion.

24 First of all, is that your understanding as well of the 280th

25 IBLB.

Page 41276

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably. I don't know. I don't

2 know these military formulations. I know that the 28th Division operated

3 there, and I mean, I don't know. I don't know these names, but I assume

4 that that could be that.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I then take it that it's a reference to a

6 unit not of the VRS but of the opposing forces?

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the

8 witness.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Context. Context, in what context

11 is it mentioned? I don't have that paper before me. I cannot see where

12 it is mentioned, so I cannot give you an answer.

13 MR. LUKIC: Could we go back to P3355, please.

14 JUDGE ORIE: And then second page.

15 MR. LUKIC: Second page. Thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: The first large paragraph, a few lines from the

17 bottom, reference is made to the 280th IBLB and its commanding officer,

18 Ibrahim Mandzic.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, that's it. I

20 cannot confirm that because this was written by state security, and we

21 just --

22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... you don't have

23 to explain why you do not know something. If you don't know, just tell

24 us. That's sufficient.

25 Do the parties agree that this is a unit not of the VRS but from

Page 41277

1 Bosnian forces, if it exists.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, it is a reference to what the document

3 believes is a Muslim force.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

5 Please proceed. And perhaps we then move again to the next

6 document.

7 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. We should move to 65

8 ter number 4079, please.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just say the number again, please, Mr. Lukic.

10 MR. LUKIC: Yes, it's 4079. Thank you.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. On the 14th of July, 1995 -- your name is typed down there as if

14 you had type-signed this document. But, I mean, since it's a telegram,

15 there is no signature. It says here: "We have information that in the

16 general area of Pobudje, Bratunac municipality, a large Muslim group

17 (reports mention a figure of 5.000 of whom 500 are armed) which is still

18 present is allegedly planning during the coming night a breakthrough

19 through the Milici-Konjevic Polje-Drinjaca road in an attempt to advance

20 towards Tuzla."

21 Is that the column that you mentioned?

22 A. Well, yes, one of the columns. Later on -- I mean, there were

23 several columns. Up until the 16th, until reaching territory that was

24 controlled by the 2nd Muslim Corps, these columns met up and I think that

25 in the evening or afternoon of the 16th, they crossed over. Because

Page 41278

1 there were several columns. There were several leaders, several units,

2 that were independently trying to get out of the siege, and then most of

3 them linked up on the afternoon of the 16th and then they managed to

4 cross over to the area held by the Tuzla Corps, the 2nd corps.

5 MR. LUKIC: We tender this document, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 04079 receives exhibit number D1350.

8 JUDGE ORIE: D1350 is admitted.

9 MR. LUKIC:

10 Q. I'm going to ask you more about what you knew in relation to

11 developments concerning Srebrenica.

12 MR. LUKIC: We need 65 ter 4075.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.

14 MR. TRALDI: I'd ask that the witness take his headphones off.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, do you understand the English language?

16 Witness? Witness, one second, please. One -- one second.

17 Do you understand or speak the English language?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you then take your earphones off.

20 MR. TRALDI: Just to avoid being overtaken by the process of the

21 question and answer and to lay down a marker at this time, I'd ask that

22 Mr. Lukic elicit a basis of knowledge for this document and the date

23 contained in it.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, we'll hear whether you follow the

25 suggestion made by Mr. Traldi.

Page 41279

1 Could you put your earphones on again.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. LUKIC: This document or the previous one?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, this document, which is now on our

5 screen, or the previous one?

6 MR. TRALDI: The current one. I had no objection as to the

7 previous one.

8 MR. LUKIC: Can we see the bottom part of the document in both

9 versions, please. More, more, more, please, in B/C/S. Yeah.

10 Q. [Interpretation] My colleague would like to ask you where you

11 received your information from regarding information contained in this

12 document. We see that you signed the document.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Is that -- or was it more -- whether the witness

14 knows where this document comes from.

15 MR. TRALDI: If he could just take the headphones off again.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Could you take off your headphones again for a

17 second.

18 MR. TRALDI: Because my understanding of his claim in his

19 statement is that he was out of the country at the time this was issued.

20 I'm asking for a basis of knowledge as to the information contained in

21 it.

22 JUDGE ORIE: For the information contained in it, not for his

23 knowledge of the document itself.

24 MR. TRALDI: For provenance, right but yeah.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please explore whether the witness is

Page 41280

1 familiar with this document, whether he was the one who takes

2 responsibility for the content. His name is under it. And then, after

3 that, what the basis of his knowledge for the content is. Perhaps we do

4 that now and then take a break.

5 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

6 Q. [Interpretation] Could you please put your headphones on again.

7 MR. LUKIC: Can we go up now and -- yeah, in English version

8 first page, and in B/C/S see the top of the document.

9 Q. [Interpretation] The document is dated 16th of July, 1995. You

10 are mentioned further down as the signatory.

11 At this point in time, where were you?

12 A. I was in Budva. I was in Budva, attending my deputy's wedding, I

13 think from the 14th to 18th. So I am the signatory because that's the

14 way it has to be. However, it's the head of the department that deals

15 with this that actually signed it but he had to sign my name. But I was

16 not in the territory of Republika Srpska. I was in Montenegro attending

17 my deputy's wedding from the 14th until 18th of July, 1995.

18 Q. So in this document, there is a reference to the morning hours of

19 the 16th of July, 1995. Fighting started with Muslim soldiers, at their

20 main part surrounded by the group of Muslim soldiers located west of the

21 Caparde-Zvornik road. Since --

22 JUDGE ORIE: I suggested some questions to you and you dealt with

23 one of them but not with the others.

24 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, I have to present what is in the document to

25 ask if the witness knows about the content.

Page 41281

1 JUDGE ORIE: No. The first -- I suggested a few other questions.

2 Witness, this document which bears your name, have you seen it at

3 the time that it was sent; that is, the 16th of July?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

5 JUDGE ORIE: When have you become familiar with this document, if

6 at all.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, my practice was usually, once

8 I'd returned from the field, I would familiarize myself with documents

9 that were sent to the Main Staff and the president of the republic or,

10 rather, such information that was created on the basis of this kind of

11 information.

12 As for this particular document, I cannot say whether I read it

13 or not, but I certainly read it when I was preparing to testify in the

14 Karadzic case. Now, whether, on that day, the 19th or 20th, whether I

15 read it then, that is what I cannot recall.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic -- no. We take a break.

17 I have -- because you now go to the content and --

18 We take a break, and we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

19 You may follow the usher.

20 [The witness stands down]

21 JUDGE ORIE: No speaking aloud, Mr. Mladic, again.

22 We take a break and we resume at 20 minutes past midday.

23 --- Recess taken at 11.58 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 12.20 p.m.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, it happened a few times recently that if

Page 41282

1 you present a 92 bis witness that the Prosecution and I think we more or

2 less have always invited the parties to do so, to add some portions of,

3 for example, the testimony of that witness in another case. If we don't

4 hear any objections to that, we consider this to be accepted. Well, it

5 happened now and then.

6 MR. LUKIC: I don't know which witness do you have in mind? In

7 general. Okay.

8 JUDGE ORIE: In general. It happened, I think, at least two

9 times recently.

10 MR. TRALDI: It has, Your Honour. And I can think of one

11 occasion where the Defence didn't object -- or didn't accept and did a

12 filing to reflect that they were withdrawing the motion as a result and

13 in the other occasions I don't recall that they've done any filings.

14 JUDGE ORIE: So if there's no specific answer to such an

15 additional request, then the Chamber -- or -- is -- always inclined to

16 extend the portion of the testimony in accordance with what the

17 Prosecution has requested.

18 I just wanted to make that clear on the record, that that's how

19 we procedurally proceed in those cases.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 [The witness takes the stand]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. We would offer this document

24 into evidence.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

Page 41283

1 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 04075 receives exhibit number

2 D1351, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

5 Can we have 1D06118 on our screens, please.

6 Can we have top of the page enlarged, please, first.

7 Q. [Interpretation] This is from RDB, state security sector,

8 Sarajevo, sent to the deputy minister of the interior in person, the CRDB

9 Banja Luka, and the public security chief in person.

10 MR. LUKIC: Can we see the bottom of the page, please.

11 Q. [Interpretation] You see your signature? These are the correct

12 pages.

13 So, second paragraph from the bottom, in page -- on page 1 in

14 B/C/S and the second paragraph from the bottom as well on page 2 in

15 English.

16 We've seen that the document is dated 14 August 1995, and in this

17 paragraph, we read: "Another two groups of Muslim soldiers from Zepa and

18 Srebrenica were neutralised on 13 August."

19 What was your information, until when did fighting continue with

20 those straggler groups from Srebrenica and Zepa who were trying to break

21 out?

22 A. Almost the whole year. My signature is at the bottom but you see

23 that this paper is actually sent to me. If you can go back to the first

24 page.

25 Do you see "the chief of RDB in person." At that time I was in

Page 41284

1 Banja Luka. So from the head office to inform me about a situation on

2 the ground is sent to me in person. At that time I was in Banja Luka

3 because of the well-known situation in Krajina. So this is one of my

4 subordinates who was at that time in the head office at Pale dealing with

5 those problems, and I remember several similar dispatches referring to

6 groups of soldiers who, after the fall of Srebrenica, were moving through

7 that area, because it's a huge area.

8 MR. LUKIC: We would offer this one into evidence, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

10 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 1D06118 receives exhibit number

11 D1352.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

14 Q. [Interpretation] Did you deal with Srebrenica before July 1995?

15 A. Yes, we did. Srebrenica was a subject of our interest from the

16 outbreak of the war, and it was within the jurisdiction of our detachment

17 in Zvornik, our operative section in Zvornik, which covered that area.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see 1D6116. We don't

19 have the translation of this document, as far as I know.

20 Q. So I will read out what it's about. We see at the top MUP of

21 Republika Srpska, RDB state security sector, Sarajevo. On 28th

22 June 1995, it was sent to the deputy minister of the interior of

23 Republika Srpska in person and the chief of the RDB in person.

24 In the third paragraph --

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, was it to the chief of RDB or RJB.

Page 41285

1 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... RJB. I said RJB.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, you misspoke.

3 MR. LUKIC: Okay.

4 Q. [Interpretation] So we see that third paragraph. It says: "The

5 units of the so-called BH army, around 500 hours on 28 June 1995 attacked

6 VRS positions at Tuk and Cecavka."

7 What did you say?

8 A. Nothing, nothing. Excuse me.

9 Q. "Ten fighters were wounded and, at the same time, there was an

10 attack at Jasen in the area of responsibility of the 3rd SPB."

11 And in the last sentence, it says: "In parallel with the

12 infantry attacks, the enemy shelled civilian targets as well."

13 And let's look at the second page. It says: "In a sabotage

14 terrorist action carried out by Muslim units in the area of Han Pijesak

15 municipality on 27 June this year, one of the groups, according to

16 available information, was led by Avdo Palic himself."

17 A bit further below, it says: "In his report to the higher

18 command, Palic stated that in that action 40 Serb soldiers were killed,

19 several dozens were wounded, and one was taken prisoner."

20 What kind of reports did you get before the operation against

21 Srebrenica? What were the actions of the Muslim forces from Srebrenica

22 and Zepa?

23 A. Sometime in mid-June, and even before, we had operative

24 information, that is to say, intelligence, about a high concentration of

25 Muslim forces in the area of Sarajevo and that a breakout operation from

Page 41286

1 Sarajevo was being prepared. Except the 7th and the 5th Corps, all corps

2 provided their numerical strength. Even those from Srebrenica. We got

3 reports that units from Srebrenica, including sabotage groups, were being

4 pulled out of Srebrenica and moving towards Sarajevo, preparing for that

5 action to cut off the western part of Sarajevo, and this indicates that,

6 at the same time, on -- at the same time, the 28th Division was given the

7 task to launch surprise attacks against our forces in that area so that

8 we, that is to say, the Army of Republika Srpska, would not be able to

9 send part of our forces from that area to Sarajevo.

10 You've shown me only one or two reports, but I believe there are

11 more, describing actions launched from the protected areas in order to

12 bind our forces and to prevent them from sending reinforcement to

13 Sarajevo in which a fierce offensive by Muslim forces was underway.

14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kijac.

15 We would like to tender this document. And I would like to show

16 only one more document and conclude with this.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

18 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 1D06116 receives exhibit number

19 D1353, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

21 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Should be marked for identification because there's

23 no translation. Therefore, D1353 is marked for identification.

24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

25 Can we have on our screens P01677, please.

Page 41287

1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kijac, this document was shown to you

2 earlier today. It's a document from the Main Staff of the VRS granting

3 approval for travel to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and we see a

4 list of four persons. The first is Drazen Erdemovic.

5 We see the approval was given. Drazen Erdemovic is travelling

6 under his true name. Would this approval be valid if he had carried

7 documents with a different name? Would it be able -- would it have been

8 possible to compare it at the border?

9 A. No, it wouldn't have been. Because if Erdemovic had received our

10 documents he wouldn't know in which name it would be. We issue IDs with

11 certain names, and we register them in a log-book, and only if there

12 occurs a problem and we cannot find out who is carrying that document,

13 then we pull out that log-book and we see on whose request - not to which

14 person, only on whose request - a new identity was given to someone.

15 So this is a bit strange because we see that it was on the 11th

16 February 1996, and we had issued that paper, according to the other

17 document, in January on that year. We did issue papers, but we don't

18 know to whom.

19 Q. So Drazen Erdemovic could use this certificate only on his true

20 name?

21 A. Yes, he could cross the border only as Drazen Erdemovic.

22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kijac. That's all the we had for you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

24 Mr. Traldi, any further questions for the witness.

25 MR. TRALDI: Just very briefly, Your Honour. Can we have 65 ter

Page 41292

1 JUDGE ORIE: And you wanted --

2 MR. TRALDI: If the Defence have no objection, we ask that be

3 admitted.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar, you're hereby instructed to

5 attach the document just referred to by Mr. Traldi which appears on the

6 transcript to P7590.

7 P7590 is admitted into evidence, and as always, 48 hours to

8 revisit the matter if need be.

9 Good afternoon, Mr. Kovac. First of all, our apologies for

10 dealing with other matters when you entered the courtroom. Before you

11 give evidence, the rules require that you make a solemn declaration, the

12 text of which is now handed out to you. May I invite you to make that

13 solemn declaration.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 WITNESS: MITAR KOVAC

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Kovac.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kovac, you'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic.

22 You find Mr. Ivetic to your left. Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence

23 team of Mr. Mladic.

24 Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.

25 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 41293

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It would be more convenient if you put your

2 earphones from the top of your head and not from the back.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 MR. IVETIC:

5 Q. Good day, General.

6 A. Good day.

7 Q. Could you please state your full name, first and last, for of the

8 purposes of the record.

9 A. Mitar Kovac.

10 Q. I would like to first call up your curriculum vitae, 1D6015, in

11 e-court. I also have a hard copy in Serbian which, with the assistance

12 of the usher and after Prosecution counsel has looked at it, I would ask

13 to be given to the witness.

14 And my first question, sir, is: Have you had a chance to review

15 this document in full prior to today?

16 A. Yes, I did have an opportunity.

17 Q. And is your CV up to date, or does it need to be updated with

18 additional information?

19 A. Well, there are some elements pertaining to the last two years

20 that have not been included.

21 Q. If we look at page 1 in both versions, your current post since

22 January 2013 is listed as chief of the strategic planning administration,

23 Ministry of Defence, Republic of Serbia. What, if anything, do we need

24 to add here to bring this CV current?

25 A. It is necessary to add that on the 22nd of December, 2014, at my

Page 41294

1 own request, I was retired from the mentioned position.

2 Q. And apart from retiring from the mentioned position within the

3 Ministry of Defence, has that retirement affected your other positions,

4 such as the research or teaching positions, listed later on in your CV?

5 A. No. On the contrary. I've already said that I retired at my own

6 request, precisely for the purpose of devoting myself to scientific

7 research. What I did throughout my career so I remained there at the war

8 college for officers' training for doctoral thesis and so on. And also I

9 work with several schools of the University of Belgrade and also with a

10 private university.

11 Q. And I see, sir, up to 1991 you had various commands in army units

12 and I'd like to ask you about the time-period between 1991 and 2004 while

13 you were at the institute. Did you have occasion to be assigned anywhere

14 to combat units?

15 A. As I arrived in the institute in 1991, certain units became

16 involved in the theatre of war so at the end of November 1991, I was sent

17 to the JNA units that were in the theatre of war in the Republic of

18 Croatia where I was commander of an artillery battalion for six months.

19 I did not give back the post that I had held until then. That is to say

20 that this was a temporary assignment. After that I returned to the same

21 post that I held at the institute of the art of war. And then at the end

22 of January 1993, I was temporarily assigned yet again to be at the

23 Herzegovina Corps of the Army of Republika Srpska --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We missed the exact post.

25 The witness is speaking too fast.

Page 41295

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After these six months --

2 MR. IVETIC:

3 Q. Sir, the translators said that they missed the exact post that

4 you had in the Herzegovina Corps and they've asked that you try to speak

5 slower. So if you could repeat your answer beginning right after your

6 assignment to the Herzegovina Corps of the Army of Republika Srpska.

7 A. At the end of January 1993, I was temporarily reassigned to the

8 Herzegovina Corps and it was Chief of Staff of the artillery regiment.

9 That was the post I held until the beginning of August 1993. And I

10 returned to the institute of the art of war yet again.

11 Q. And could you tell us, apart from that which we have just gone

12 through, is the rest of your CV complete and up to date?

13 A. I think that the rest of my CV has remained unchanged.

14 Q. Okay. Then I'd like to focus a bit on the part of your CV that

15 lists your scientific research and teaching career. This is on the

16 bottom of page 1 in English and it is on the top of page 2 in the

17 Serbian. So I'd ask that we go to page 2 in the Serbian version and, of

18 course, you have a hard copy in front of you.

19 I'd like to ask you, first, in relation to your time at the

20 Strategic Research Institute, if you could tell us what kinds of topics

21 or subjects were covered by your work there.

22 A. The institute of the -- of strategic research and before that,

23 the art of war institute, was an institution of the JNA that dealt in

24 research pertaining to art of war --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please

Page 41296

1 slow down.

2 MR. IVETIC:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

4 A. I do apologise. I do apologise.

5 As a young officer, I started working at that institute, that is

6 to say in 1991, and when I was sent to JNA units in the theatre of war in

7 the Republic of Croatia, I carried out part of a project that had to do

8 with the activity the JNA units in crisis areas during the civil war in

9 the SFRY. Gradually I developed as a researcher, and gradually I

10 attained all levels from researcher to scientific advisor in 2004.

11 As a scientific advisor and as a senior scientific associate, I

12 was the leader of several significant projects in that institute.

13 Q. And if we can now turn the page in the English version and stay

14 on the same page in the Serbian version, we see here a reference to both

15 the Military Academy and the University of Defence in this same section.

16 Could you tell us what subjects or topics or themes were the

17 focus of your activities at these institutions.

18 A. At the academy and later on at the University of Defence, I

19 taught primarily at doctoral studies, masters studies, in the field of

20 strategy, military strategy, strategic management, strategic planning,

21 programming, and the system of planning, programming, budgeting and

22 execution.

23 Q. And you've mentioned earlier and here we have listed two

24 faculties at Belgrade university, the faculty of security and the faculty

25 of political science, can you tell us precisely what your positions at

Page 41297

1 these faculties entailed.

2 A. At the faculty of security for a rather long period of time,

3 about five years, I taught at the level of masters studies and doctoral

4 studies in the field of defence systems and at the faculty of political

5 science, the primary subject had to do with the strategy of national

6 security, the strategy of defence, security challenges and threats from

7 global to national levels.

8 Q. Now, in relation to the areas of research and professional focus

9 and it is towards the bottom of the page in English but we have to go to

10 the next page of your CV that is page 3 in the Serbian --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic [sic], before we continue, is this the

12 same version we have before us as the one that was submitted earlier? Or

13 is it a new one or ... because the text seems to be not exactly the same.

14 MR. IVETIC: I would have to check on that, Your Honours. It's

15 the only CV I know of, so I would imagine ... that it ought to be.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the headings of the one we have seen, for

18 example, if we look at research area and professional focus, the version

19 we have says research area and professional focus, whereas the one we are

20 looking at now says areas of research and professional focus. Under --

21 so at least the text is not the same. So -- and then, of course, we

22 could go through it and find out what is different. But it seems that

23 there are two versions. The one which you submitted earlier, and now the

24 one we have on our screen, and I think they both come from you, isn't it?

25 MR. IVETIC: Without knowing which one you have in front of you,

Page 41298

1 I can't say with certainty but it could be a translation --

2 JUDGE ORIE: What we have in front of us is the one you asked to

3 be on our screens. I mean, we didn't.

4 MR. IVETIC: Yes. And I don't have access to the other one that

5 you have in front of you that you say is different, therefore I can't --

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... submitted, which has the

7 numbers of filing on top it. That's, of course, the ones you have

8 submitted earlier.

9 MR. IVETIC: And that's why I suggest I look at that during the

10 break since I'm ill prepared to address that now.

11 JUDGE ORIE: We see it one second.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In my view it was attached to defence notice of

13 disclosure of expert report filed 16 February 2015. This is the hard

14 copy we have in front of us.

15 MR. IVETIC: It may be and I will check to see whether this is an

16 updated version or an updated translation, perhaps. I don't know.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We are comparing the English. Only the English.

18 MR. IVETIC: Yes, and the English would be a translation,

19 Your Honours.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but apparently then you provided two different

21 translations. I mean, I don't know where you got them from, but it's

22 your responsibility, whatever you submit, and we're now looking at a

23 document we prepared for the other one and we noticed that they're not

24 the same. And I have one additional question in this context for the

25 witness.

Page 41299

1 Witness, you told us that your CV didn't cover the last two

2 years, or at least the last two years since 2013 were not reflected.

3 What caused that, that you have not dealt with the last two years?

4 Could you tell us why the last two years are not in your CV as it

5 was presented to us?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I said at the

7 beginning that the only essential difference is in my retirement. All

8 the other elements of my biography are --

9 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't ask you what is the difference. I asked

10 you why the last two years, if that includes your retirement, fine, why

11 the last two years are not to be found in your CV, as it was presented to

12 us.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I arrived here, I communicated

14 that change in my professional career. Before that, I did not have any

15 opportunity to make a change in my CV.

16 JUDGE ORIE: But the previous one, was that prepared for another

17 case or ... your previous CV.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that earlier CV I submitted

19 together with my expert report.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 Mr. Ivetic, if years are missing and if the witness draws your

22 attention to that, rather than to ask him to explain all that in court it

23 would have been better that a revised CV and then preferably one where

24 there exists only one version to be presented. Let's move on.

25 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, if I may. With multiple Prosecution

Page 41300

1 witnesses they've walked in with updated CVs and it's been the practice

2 in this courtroom to update them because time sometimes passes between

3 when the materials are filed and when the witness comes to testify. So

4 quite frankly, I'm a little surprised by Your Honours' instruction now

5 with relation to just bringing current a CV for two years since the

6 report was drafted. I don't understand why this is becoming such an

7 issue when with Prosecution witnesses it was not an issue. I'm frankly

8 quite concerned about the manner in which this witness is being treated

9 by this Chamber.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. --

11 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not treating this witness at this moment. The

12 CV presented is dated, initially presented, is dated Belgrade, 2013. The

13 only thing I am --

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ORIE: That's the report.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The problem, Mr. Ivetic, is that under the

17 document number 1D06015, we obviously have two different versions. This

18 is a problem. That was listed in your list of Defence exhibits as CV of

19 this witness, but you submitted, with your Defence notice, another

20 version of the CV. That is the problem. And it's obviously the same

21 number. That has to be clarified.

22 MR. IVETIC: And that will be clarified, but again, I note

23 Ewa Tabeau, expert witness of the Prosecution had a second CV. I believe

24 Mr. Dannatt had a second CV. It's a situation that has come up before

25 and so I'm quite surprised to be getting the responses that I'm getting

Page 41301

1 that we need to --

2 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Overlapping speakers] ...

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I would not have dealt with it if you

5 would not have presented two different CVs under the same number to this

6 Chamber, where we have to find out that there are two versions without

7 any further explanation. I would not have dealt with the other matter if

8 this would not have triggered it.

9 Please proceed.

10 MR. IVETIC: Okay. Now that the translation is completed --

11 Q. Sir, in relation to areas of research and professional focus,

12 that is towards the bottom of the page in the English and is now at the

13 top of the page in the Serbian version, the sixth entry lists

14 co-operation with NATO within the framework of the DRG, the Defence

15 Research Group.

16 Can you tell us a bit more about what your work in this regard

17 entailed.

18 A. With my appointment to the head of administration in this group

19 in the Ministry of Defence which is in the defence sector, I co-operated

20 ex officio with representatives of NATO, primarily with the sector for

21 the planning of forces and defence policy, and through that co-operation,

22 this DRG group was established. It was the instrument for co-operation

23 between member states of NATO and the Republic of Serbia and its Ministry

24 of Defence. I can say that this co-operation is ongoing. It continues

25 through various mechanisms, including meetings, and various groups that

Page 41302

1 have been established to deal with a variety of issues covered by the

2 defence ministry and the Army of Yugoslavia -- and the Army of Serbia,

3 beginning with charting of policies and the establishment of forces to

4 work under the UN mandate.

5 Q. And could you provide us a few more details about the subject

6 matter of that work when you say, "policies and establishment of forces

7 within the Army of Serbia."

8 What precisely was the type of tasks that were being analysed and

9 worked upon by way of this co-operative group with NATO?

10 A. Groups were formed following the principle of work tables. Every

11 work table had several functions falling within the defence system. The

12 most active were four work tables. One was for defence policy; and

13 second for the preparation of army units and army units reform; the third

14 for logistics within the defence system; and the fourth security and

15 intelligence sector.

16 Now, I don't know if it's necessary to speak about these various

17 sectors in detail. Essentially, every work table included co-operation

18 with several NATO member states and the partnership for peace.

19 Q. Thank you, sir. I don't think we need any more details beyond

20 what you've given but I would like to know the time-period that you

21 participated in such workings with the DRG group and NATO. What

22 time-period during your career in terms of years?

23 A. From 2007 until I retired in 2014; that is to say, seven years.

24 I had a position in the defence ministry, then became head of the

25 administration for technical planning, and then head of administration

Page 41303

1 for planning and development in the General Staff of the Army of Serbia

2 where I spent three years.

3 Q. And now, sir, I'd like to take a moment looking at the listing of

4 publications which is to be found on page 4 in both English and Serbian.

5 And the first question I have for you, sir: Are these all the

6 books, monographs and publications that you have published during your

7 career?

8 A. There should be a sentence saying that this is only an excerpt of

9 all the papers and books that I published during my research scientific

10 and professional career. Monographs are all there. Studies, only

11 partially. And as for articles, there are just a few listed because I

12 published more than 100 in domestic and foreign magazines.

13 Q. I'd like to focus on just a few items we see here.

14 We see in the second and third items under books, "History of the

15 Art of War." And we see under item number 2 of the research projects -

16 which will be on the next page in the Serbian - the same title with the

17 dates 1995 to 2000. What exactly is this publication?

18 A. It was a fundamental research project designed by the institute

19 for the art of war, and on average, eight researchers were involved.

20 This fundamental research was done for educational and scientific and

21 research motives because it was estimated that there was a need for

22 the -- for monographs to be published at the end of that research, that

23 is to say, publications that could be used in education, in the education

24 of officers and cadets in the Military Academy. The purpose of this

25 project has been accomplished in full, and to the great joy of the

Page 41304

1 authors of this monograph, it has been used with great success in

2 teaching.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a question for clarification.

4 Sir, what is the substantive difference between these two

5 publications. One is "History of Art of War," the other one is "History

6 of Military Art"?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this part under the

8 subheading "Studies and monographs," is the entirety of the project which

9 includes all the methodological aspects of the project beginning with the

10 development of the concept, the observation of all the elements required

11 for the manufacturing of instruments, developments of plans and

12 engagement, and this period was two years before research itself began.

13 The connection between these two subheadings, between these two titles is

14 spans a period of time in which three monographs were published that fall

15 within one volume of "The History of the Art of War" that is the

16 essential connection. The -- as the output of the project, these

17 monographs and books were published.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I probably didn't express myself very clearly. My

19 question was: What is the substantive difference between "The History of

20 Art of War," and "History of Military Art"?

21 Although the headings are slightly different, they seem to

22 connote to me the same kind of topic, and I'm just trying to find out if,

23 indeed, they deal with two different areas and what is that difference?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the same field. But, first of

25 all, comes the research procedure and, at the end of the process, are the

Page 41305

1 monographs listed here.

2 It's the same field of science: The art of war.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The reason I'm asking is because in item 3, it

4 covers the period 1920 to 2000 and the other one, "The History of

5 Military Art" covers 1995 to 2000; and if it's the same field, it looks

6 like 1995 to 2000 is a duplication of what is already contained in "The

7 History of Art of War."

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do not see 1995 up

9 till 200 anywhere. Maybe that's a mistranslation.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe we are looking at two different reports now

11 that we realise there are two different reports. The hard copy I have

12 before me, under management and participation in managing scientific

13 research projects, item 2 says: "History of Military Art, 1995 to 2000."

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And you have it in front of you on the screen in

15 the B/C/S version.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not the way it is here in

17 the printed version.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we are dealing with different versions of

19 the CV, perhaps.

20 Mr. Ivetic, since you will pay attention to that matter anyhow

21 during the next break perhaps you could also look at this aspect of it.

22 MR. IVETIC: I can. I can already note that number 2 on the

23 screen has "History of the Art of War," but that is in the "Lead

24 researcher and research projects" and I think that seems to be what

25 Your Honour is asking about, since I don't see any reference to 1995

Page 41306

1 through 2000 under the books.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, it's not under the books.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] It's not under the

4 books. As I indicated, it's under the heading, "Management and

5 participating in managing in scientific research projects." That's the

6 heading I have on this.

7 MR. IVETIC: And that's bottom of the page in the English on the

8 screen.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your microphone was off.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry. Apparently my microphone was off.

11 I was saying this one is under the heading, "Management and

12 participation in managing in scientific research projects," and it's item

13 2, under that heading which says "History of military art (1995 to

14 2000)."

15 And I think my colleague is quoting from the written version and

16 on the screen we see "Lead researcher and researcher in scientific

17 projects." Again, that's not exactly the same text, where under 2 we

18 find "The History of the Art of War (1995-2000)." So, again, in order to

19 find the right places, we have to carefully compare the various English

20 versions of this. But that's what apparently Judge Moloto focussed on

21 that.

22 Could you perhaps look at that as well during the break.

23 MR. IVETIC: Absolutely.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kovac, we'll take a break. We'd like to see you

25 back in 20 minutes. You may follow the usher.

Page 41307

1 [The witness stands down]

2 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break, and we'll resume at quarter to

3 2.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 1.25 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 1.50 p.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for the witness to be escorted

7 into the courtroom, Mr. Ivetic, could you further inform the Chamber

8 about the versions, at least in the English language of the CV.

9 MR. IVETIC: I can. During the break I have confirmed that the

10 B/C/S version attached to the motion filed on the 15th of February and

11 the one in e-court are the exact same. What is at issue are the

12 translations of the English. The one that was attached to the motion is

13 a draft translation that was prepared at the behest of OLAD when seeking

14 appointment of this witness insofar as the CLSS official translation was

15 not ready at that time. The CLSS official translation only was completed

16 a few days before the filing of the 94 bis notice for this witness and

17 somehow the old CV was copied onto that filing. We've checked the text

18 of the two and the main difference comes in the inartful translation of

19 the headings and, for instance, the use of the word "the head" instead of

20 "chief," then use of the word "multiple" instead of "numerous" articles,

21 and as Judge Moloto pointed out the inartful number 2 under lead

22 researcher items where it's "The History of the Art of War" in both the

23 B/C/S original and the CLSS translation, and the draft translation had

24 the words transposed in the manner that we discussed before the break.

25 I apologise for any confusion caused by that since I only knew of

Page 41308

1 one B/C/S original, that is why I was confused by the existence of

2 differences, where now we know where they come from and, again, the

3 version in e-court if we scroll down can be even seen as the CLSS

4 official translation.

5 [The witness takes the stand]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Judge Moloto has a question.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do I understand, then, that the one that we are

8 going to be using during this witness's testimony is the one that's on

9 e-court.

10 MR. IVETIC: That is correct.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Then, in response to one of my observations,

13 Mr. Ivetic, you said that we treated the Defence different from the

14 Prosecution. I tried to just find out about updated CVs in relation to

15 Tabeau, and I think twice even, in relation to Mr. Donia, in relation to

16 Witness Brunborg, I think also in relation to Witness Haglund. There are

17 always written new versions of the CV, and when there was only a verbal

18 update in relation to Witness Radovanovic. The Chamber didn't make that

19 much of a fuss about that. We were -- well, without any comment, it was

20 done. So I don't know whether you wanted to refer that I was -- blaming

21 the Chamber for accepting updates from the Prosecution and not accepting

22 updates from the Defence or - and that's what I had on my mind - is to

23 have uploaded an updated CV and I see -- I may not have checked all of

24 them but most of the expert witnesses of the Prosecution if there was an

25 updated CV it was presented in written form and that's what I thought I

Page 41309

1 would encourage the Defence to do the same, and that was all triggered by

2 the fact that there were even several English versions, two different

3 English versions of the CV.

4 Let's move on. Let's leave all this behind us and let's focus on

5 what we're here for, that is, to hear the evidence of this witness.

6 Please proceed.

7 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. General, sir, I'd like to follow up some more on the publication

9 the "History of the Art of War," and I'd like to ask you how it has been

10 received within the industry since being published?

11 MR. WEBER: Objection. Vague. It's not really clear. Industry?

12 What industry? What are we talking about? The relevance of the question

13 is also not exactly clear.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Let me first check.

15 Do you understand the question, what Mr. Ivetic is asking you,

16 Witness?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: What -- how do you understand "the industry," what

19 that means in this context?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My understanding is that this meant

21 being leader of a project because I really did lead that project in the

22 second half. And that is something that was discussed a moment ago and

23 that is written here.

24 The result of this project are these three books, out of which

25 two were mentioned in the part that pertains to books. Numbers 2 and 3.

Page 41310

1 And the only thing missing here is the "History of Serbian Art of War."

2 So this is three volumes. And all three were well received. I

3 understand that that was the question, how they were received. All three

4 were well received and -- oh, okay.

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... the question was

6 mainly received well by whom? Because Mr. Weber and the same is true for

7 me, by the way, was not clearly clear yet whether was meant by "the

8 industry" which received your books well.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My understanding was that the

10 question was how they were received in military practice and the school

11 system. That is to say, how they were received by the readers.

12 JUDGE ORIE: If you --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Although --

14 JUDGE ORIE: If that is how you understood the question and if

15 Mr. Ivetic wanted to ask you this, then I think you've answered the

16 question, that they were received well and we now also know by whom.

17 Next question, please, Mr. Ivetic.

18 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

19 Q. Is that work, "The Art of War," a Serbian-only publication or is

20 it available in other languages?

21 A. First, it was published in Serbian and then in English and it's

22 used in the exchange of literature with universities of defence of other

23 countries with which the University of Defence has co-operation. There

24 are a few proposals and requests to have this translated into the

25 national languages of these academies, and, as far as I know, talks are

Page 41311

1 underway right now. That's what the publisher said.

2 Q. And has this or any other publication that you have authored

3 received any awards?

4 A. This publication did receive a reward at the book fair in Nis.

5 The name of the award is Transplantation of Wisdom. Also there is an

6 article about functions of combat that was rewarded in 1997. This is a

7 reward from Vojno Delo. It was called the 22nd of December. And it was

8 the top reward in the then-Yugoslav army.

9 Q. And earlier before the break you mentioned foreign publications.

10 In which countries have some of your publications been published?

11 A. Mostly in the recent past, when we've established co-operation

12 with other scientific institutions in the world and when we had

13 opportunity to attend international meetings and publish articles. For

14 now, a part of my monograph was published in a very prestigious magazine

15 in the UK, in India, in Austria in a national magazine dealing with

16 national security and defence and in some other countries.

17 Q. And just one last item that I'd like to look at, and that's item

18 number 7 under your publications, and it is entitled: Determining the

19 effectiveness of systems of military organisation.

20 What can you tell us about this publication?

21 A. First of all, I led this project at the institute, as you can see

22 in the next chapter, from 2002 to 2004. The result of that project is

23 the monograph published in the military publishing institute. The

24 monograph is a theoretical basis for determining the efficiency of all

25 military organisational systems from the highest to the lowest

Page 41312

1 organisational structures. As such, it introduced a number of novelties

2 in mathematical modelling and the methodology of determining the combat

3 functionality of units. Part of this article was published in a

4 prestigious English magazine. At their request, a smaller part of the

5 article was published at symposium and then this article as a chapter of

6 the monograph was expanded.

7 Q. And this work that we've just discussed, did it relate to

8 examining only the Serbian army or did it relate to any other armies?

9 A. Well, it's a scientific research project which is applicable to

10 many armies in the world, and we know that part of that research has been

11 accepted in the US army as well, in the modelling of new instructions for

12 determining the combat value of units. In evaluating combat units, using

13 mathematical models given in this paper.

14 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, the Defence would tender 1D06015 into

15 evidence as the next public exhibit.

16 MR. WEBER: No objection.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

18 THE REGISTRAR: It receives exhibit number D1354, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

20 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

21 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

22 Q. General, did you prepare an expert report for the instant case,

23 the case we're here for today?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Prior to this case, the Mladic case, have you ever appeared

Page 41313

1 previously as an expert in any other court proceedings?

2 A. No, never.

3 Q. I'd like now to call up 1D05358 in e-court. I don't know if you

4 have a copy. If not, I have a hard copy that I can provide to the usher.

5 While we wait for that, if you could look on the screen, do you

6 recognise the report that is now on our screens?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. And could you tell us when you were first asked to -- I'm sorry,

9 I see counsel rising?

10 MR. WEBER: I have no objection to copy of the report that's been

11 handed to me although I do see that the witness has other prepared papers

12 in front of him which I believe to be the report.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, do you have the report in front of you or

14 is there anything else you have -- could you tell us what is on the desk

15 before you?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only have the report and blank

17 paper.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Blank paper, no problem, Mr. Weber.

19 MR. WEBER: No. If there are any markings in the copy in front

20 of him though the Prosecution would like to have the opportunity to see

21 it.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Is your copy marked in any way? Anything added to

23 it? Or is it a clean copy? Well, it's only if -- if it's a clean copy

24 then ... okay.

25 Mr. Weber, you look at it at least at the same time we give

Page 41314

1 the --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's an identical copy. Exactly

3 the same as the report.

4 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether there were any annotations

5 on it made by you.

6 MR. WEBER: There are some small markings but the Prosecution

7 doesn't have any problem with it.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So you can use either version of the report

9 you'd prefer.

10 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

11 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

12 Q. General, when you were first asked to prepare an expert report

13 for this case, what precisely was your assignment?

14 A. My task was to try to write in keeping with the indictment, a

15 military expert report on the civil war in Bosnia-Herzegovina. During my

16 talks with lawyer Nenad Petrusic, I tried to gain an idea about the scope

17 of the work, for what period it is to be done, what material is available

18 for my research and study, and all the other issues that were important

19 to me.

20 Q. And could you tell us how you set out to perform your assignment?

21 What types of things did you review?

22 A. I reviewed various sources, primarily of original material

23 originating from the warring parties in Bosnia-Herzegovina, plans of

24 action, material about various levels of organisation of these armies,

25 plans of warfare, all the planning related to the Sarajevo theatre of war

Page 41315

1 and the protected areas of Srebrenica and Zepa. Along with the primary

2 sources, I also used the published works by authors, leaders, commanders

3 in the Croatian army, in the HVO; in the Muslim army, that is to say, the

4 BH army; as well as the Army of Republika Srpska.

5 The problem that I felt during my entire work on the report was

6 the lack or shortage of documents related to the BH army, the Croatian

7 army, and the Croatian Defence Council. I tried to solve this problem

8 partially by locating documents in monographs that have been published

9 about the war between these armies in this period of the civil war.

10 Also, I used reports or expert reports from the Office of the

11 Prosecutor and from Defence experts in various cases heard before this

12 Tribunal, primarily those written by General Radinovic, and an expert

13 report related to the command and control and the system of command in

14 the Army of Republika Srpska made for the OTP.

15 Q. And you mentioned the review of expert reports of Prosecution

16 experts. Which ones?

17 A. Primarily the Butler and --

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the other name.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Reports in the Krstic case and the

20 Karadzic case, I believe.

21 MR. IVETIC:

22 Q. And if you could just repeat after Butler the interpreters did

23 not catch the name of the second name that you used for the Prosecution

24 expert reports that you reviewed?

25 A. General Dannatt.

Page 41316

1 Q. And in terms of the documentation that was cited in the footnotes

2 of your report, how did you determine what would be used or cited

3 therein?

4 A. In view of my experience in writing in general, for many

5 paragraphs and chapters, I could name more than one source, but I usually

6 cited the source that was the closest to me at the moment and which

7 covered the greatest number of facts concerning a given qualification.

8 Q. And out of this wide variety of sources that you consulted, what

9 was the main type of document that you relied upon in reaching your

10 conclusions?

11 A. For the most part, I relied on documents of command, of different

12 types and different levels of command, reports, studies and monographs,

13 as well as video footage of specific events.

14 Q. And the last question before we get to the break for today, as to

15 the organisation and functioning of the VRS, did you consult any

16 additional sources of information; and, if so, which ones?

17 A. As for the functioning of the Army of Republika Srpska, I used

18 reports about the combat readiness of VRS units that were done

19 periodically. I used my personal knowledge and the personal knowledge

20 and personal interviews with various officers who held different

21 positions in the Army of Republika Srpska and I used written sources,

22 monographs or books, that have been published about the VRS in that

23 period.

24 Q. Thank you, sir?

25 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, we are at the break.

Page 41317

1 JUDGE ORIE: Before we take that break, one very short question:

2 Do you have a list of those officers you interviewed so we would know

3 which your sources are?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Specifically, I talked to --

5 JUDGE ORIE: I just wondered whether you have listed them

6 somewhere. I'm not asking you at this moment to -- to read or to -- that

7 list but whether you have a list.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know with whom I talked. It's

9 not a great number of people. It's two or three men. And I know, of

10 course, their names and I can tell them.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if is just two or three, perhaps you write

12 them down so that if, at any point in time, we or the parties would be

13 interested in it, that you would have them available.

14 Mr. Weber.

15 MR. WEBER: Of course, Your Honour, we would interested in the

16 names, we would also, if there's any recording or information about the

17 substance that was provided during the interviews, we'd also appreciate

18 that. And just on a related matter, but based on the witness's answer,

19 he made reference to multiple combat readiness reports. We do see that

20 there are a number that are referenced in his report. We have asked the

21 Defence for the ones that we don't have. If there are any that we do not

22 current possess, which I don't think we do possess all of them, if the

23 Defence could please provide them to us today.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's not for the witness but it's, rather,

25 for the Defence.

Page 41318

1 Witness, if you could, if it's only two or three names perhaps

2 you mention them now and we don't have to -- we don't have to ask you to

3 write them down, give them to VWS. If you know these two or three names,

4 then please give them now.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can tell you right now. I

6 spoke with General Vinko Pandurevic; with General Grubac, commander of a

7 corps; and Colonel Milenko Lalovic, who was battalion commander in

8 Nevesinje Brigade.

9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear which corps

10 General Grubac was commander of.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us which corps you referred to in

12 relation to General Grubac.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Herzegovina Corps.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Then last, very short question. Have you recorded

15 any of those conversations, either audio or video.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. These interviews were not

17 prepared or official. It was an informal talk where I, as a researcher,

18 tried to check out some of my knowledge, and hear the opinion of people

19 from whom I should try to get some sort of position that I would later

20 evaluate in my own way.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I said the last question, but I'm joining

22 in a bad practice, that -- to make my last question not a last question.

23 Did you make any notes of those interviews which would be

24 available?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't. It was not a --

Page 41319

1 methodologically speaking, a interview. It was informal talk.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you relied on your recollection of those

3 conversations, not on any note?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In these specific conversations,

5 yes. Because I was just confirming and evaluating personal views.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers. This really was my

7 last question.

8 We'd like to see you back tomorrow. But before you leave this

9 courtroom, I would like to instruct you that you should not speak or

10 communicate with whomever about your testimony, that is testimony given

11 today or testimony still to be given the day or the days to come. If

12 there's clear to you, you may follow the usher --

13 MR. IVETIC: One item. Your Honour said tomorrow. I believe you

14 meant next week.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's true.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's true. Because tomorrow is Friday; we're

17 not sitting.

18 Witness, you even have more than a weekend. We would like to see

19 you on Monday, the 16th of November, rather than tomorrow. Therefore,

20 you may follow the usher.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 [The witness stands down]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently, Mr. Ivetic, I always think that a week

24 is longer than it actually is.

25 MR. IVETIC: As do I sometimes, Your Honour.

Page 41320

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps that's wishful thinking.

2 We adjourn for the day and we resume Monday, the 16th of

3 November, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.22 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Monday, the 16th day of

6 November, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.