1 Thursday, 9 March 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. May I remind you of the

7 affirmation that you made at the beginning of your evidence, which still

8 applies.

9 Now, Mr. Smith, you're continuing.

10 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honours.

11 WITNESS: WITNESS P-011

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Examination by Mr. Smith:

14 Q. Witness, we left off yesterday when you stated that you were taken

15 to Sremska Mitrovica and you left there -- you were taken away from there

16 on the 4th of February, 1992; is that correct?

17 A. No, that's not correct.

18 Q. And how long did you stay at Sremska Mitrovica for?

19 A. There seems to be a misunderstanding about this. Can you please

20 repeat the previous question?

21 Q. You testified yesterday that you arrived at Sremska Mitrovica in

22 November 1991, and can you tell the Court how long you stayed there and

23 approximately what date you left?

24 A. Yes, it appears that it is correct that I spent the period up

25 until the 4th of February 1992 in Sremska Mitrovica. After that I was

1 transferred to the military investigations prison in Belgrade.

2 Q. Thank you. And when you gave -- when you were at Sremska

3 Mitrovica, were you interviewed by an investigative judge from the

4 Belgrade court?

5 A. Yes. Yes, I was.

6 Q. And what was that interview about, briefly?

7 A. In actual fact, there was a series of interviews, but essentially

8 they all focused on my involvement in Vukovar's defence.

9 Q. Thank you. And where were you taken to after Sremska Mitrovica?

10 A. As has been mentioned, I was taken to the military investigations

11 prison in Belgrade.

12 Q. And how long were you detained there?

13 A. I was detained until the exchange on the 14th of August, 1992.

14 Q. And before the exchange on the 14th of August, were you accused

15 and placed on trial of the crime of armed rebellion and crimes against

16 humanity?

17 A. Yes. Charges were brought against me. First a trial was

18 announced and the next time around there was a trial that actually began,

19 but was stopped at one point and we were exchanged.

20 Q. And did you testify on the 11th of August, 1992 at that trial?

21 A. Yes. I testified as an accused though.

22 Q. And do you know why the trial was stopped at one point and not

23 proceeded with?

24 A. You mean the one that was first announced and then cancelled or do

25 you mean the other one that was actually interrupted?

1 Q. The one in which you testified on the 11th of August.

2 A. I don't know the reasons for the interruption. However, the trial

3 was interrupted and I told you what happened afterwards.

4 Q. And then after being released from prison, did you return to

5 Zagreb?

6 A. Zagreb was not my original place of residence. I was sent back to

7 Zagreb. You can hardly call that a return.

8 Q. I apologise, that was my mistake. When you were in Zagreb on the

9 20th of August, 1992, did you give a statement?

10 A. Soon after my release from captivity I did give a statement, yes.

11 Q. And then on the 13th of March, 1993 did you give a statement to

12 some Canadian investigators?

13 A. Yes. I gave a statement to some Canadian investigators also.

14 Q. And then on the 14th of June, 1995 did you give a statement to

15 Tribunal investigators?

16 A. Yes, the Tribunal investigators too.

17 Q. And then did you give a second statement to the Tribunal

18 investigators on the 14th of September, 1995?

19 A. I did. The statements were recorded. I'm not sure about the

20 dates; I shall take your word for it. But I did give a number of

21 statements, more than one.

22 Q. And did you also give a statement in 1996, in April 1996, in

23 relation to an investigation -- investigative judge and the trial of

24 Kadijevic?

25 A. Yes. I gave that statement in Zagreb.

1 Q. And also do you agree that you testified at this Tribunal on three

2 occasions prior to coming on this occasion?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 MR. SMITH: I would now ask that Exhibit 156 be placed on the

5 screen, please. And if that could be enlarged one level higher, please.

6 And if it can be moved up the screen a few centimetres too, please, to the

7 top of the map. Thanks. Thank you.

8 Q. Witness, looking at this map in front of you, do you recognise

9 it?

10 A. Yes. This is a geographical map of Vukovar, the town or the

11 municipality.

12 Q. Witness, you testified that you laid some mines on the

13 confrontation lines when you commenced your job about the 14th or 15th of

14 September, 1991. Are you able to draw an approximate line as to where

15 those lines of confrontation were, just approximately? And if you take

16 your time to do that.

17 A. Fine. [Marks].

18 Excuse me, there is something I have to point out. The map is

19 rather small, or, rather, the scale is rather small, so this is a rough

20 depiction of the lines. That's about it.

21 Q. Thank you, Witness. We understand that. And this reflects what

22 you believe to be some of the confrontation lines at what period of time?

23 A. This is in relation to October and November. Late in 1991.

24 Q. And you testified yesterday that as -- as the attack on the town

25 ensued, that the lines -- some of the lines shifted towards the centre of

1 the town; is that correct?

2 A. That's right. The free area was getting smaller and smaller by

3 the day.

4 Q. And at these new confrontation lines, as the free area became

5 smaller and smaller, did you lay mines at those locations?

6 A. Yes, it was necessary at the time.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender that map, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 240.

11 MR. SMITH:

12 Q. And Witness, you mentioned that -- I can see from the exhibit that

13 you have a confrontation line near the JNA barracks. Can you tell the

14 Court, when you took up your position, in mid-September, whether the JNA

15 barracks was in the hands of the Croatian defence or the JNA and the

16 paramilitaries?

17 A. As far as I know --

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic.

19 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies for interrupting my

20 learned friend, but this is a twice leading question, in a manner of

21 speaking. Nobody ever mentioned that it was in the hands of the Croatian

22 forces to begin with. On the other hand, it's quite leading to say that

23 it was in the hands of the JNA and paramilitary forces. I don't think the

24 witness can testify to this. And I think the OTP is just trying to pin

25 this on this particular witness, as it were.

1 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Smith, your question is not as it should be.

2 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. Perhaps we can approach it

3 another way. If we can call for Exhibit 156 again in the original form,

4 and then perhaps if we can enlarge it a couple of sizes, please. And if

5 we can enlarge it perhaps one more, one more level. Thank you.

6 Q. Witness, you drew a confrontation line that was near the JNA

7 barracks in the previous exhibit. Now that this is enlarged, can you draw

8 the confrontation line again that was near the JNA barracks on the last

9 exhibit?

10 A. Confrontation line. Do you mean just the barracks or the entire

11 thing?

12 Q. If you could draw the confrontation line that existed near the

13 barracks, the one that you drew on the other map, when you first took up

14 your post in September.

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. Thank you, Witness. And just to be clear, these confrontation

17 lines reflect what period?

18 A. This is in relation to October and onwards.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender that exhibit, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 241.

23 MR. SMITH: If I can call for Rule 65 ter number 228, please.

24 Q. Witness, this is a series of photographs that I would like you to

25 comment on as we -- as we look at each one.

1 A. The Vukovar Hospital building. View from Gunduliceva Street.

2 Q. Thank you. And this is ERN number 0053-1231-A. If we can go back

3 to that original photo, please.

4 Witness, are you able to say where the buses were parked when you

5 got on them or got on one of them on the 20th of November, on that map

6 [sic]?

7 A. Yes. They were on Gunduliceva Street.

8 Q. And with the pen can you just draw a line to the approximate

9 location of those buses, please.

10 A. [Marks].

11 Q. Thank you. And on that photograph can you see the exit or

12 entrance that you left when you went towards those buses? And if you can,

13 can you mark that with an X, please.

14 A. [Marks].

15 Q. Thank you. And with the letter A can you mark the exit or

16 entrance that you left when you left from the hospital, from the inside of

17 the hospital to the outside, please.

18 A. I understand. [Marks].

19 Q. Thank you. And can you also mark with a double line the place

20 where you were searched as you were heading towards the buses?

21 A. [Marks].

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender that, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 242, Your Honours.

1 MR. SMITH: If we can look at the next photograph, please. This

2 is ERN 0053-1232.

3 Q. Witness, do you recognise that photograph?

4 A. Yes, I do. This is Gunduliceva Street, facing the centre of town.

5 Q. And if we can look at the next photograph, please. 0053-1233.

6 Witness, do you recognise this photograph?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. And the road that leads up the right-hand side of that photograph,

9 what road is that?

10 A. That's the street that we mentioned, Gunduliceva Street.

11 Q. And the hospital, do you see that on the photograph?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. And can you ring the hospital, please? Sorry, if just the usher

14 could assist with the pen, please. Thank you.

15 If you could place a ring around the hospital, please.

16 A. [Marks].

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. SMITH: And Your Honour, I ask that we now move into private

19 session.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 MR. SMITH:

20 Q. Witness, we had a slight technical error when we marked the

21 previous photograph. So could you, with a line again, draw the location

22 of the buses, please.

23 A. [Marks].

24 Q. Thank you. And with the letter A could you place that at the

25 location of the exit in which you took?

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. Thank you. And with two double lines can you show the location of

3 where you were searched before you were placed on the buses?

4 A. [Marks].

5 Q. And that letter X, does that depict the location from where you

6 left the hospital grounds and went to the buses? Is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I seek to tender that.

10 JUDGE PARKER: That will be received as Exhibit 242, in place of

11 the faulty one.

12 MR. SMITH: I ask if we could move to photograph number 5, please.

13 It should be ERN number 0053-1234. My mistake. Perhaps photograph

14 number 4, thank you.

15 Q. Witness, do you recognise that photograph?

16 A. Yes. This is a picture of the bridge across the Vuka River.

17 Q. Thank you. If we can go to photograph 5, please.

18 Witness, do you recognise this photograph?

19 A. Yes, that's the inner centre of Vukovar.

20 Q. And the bridge that you saw on the previous photograph, could you

21 mark that with an X, please.

22 A. [Marks].

23 Q. Thank you. And with an arrow, can you draw the direction of the

24 hospital, please.

25 A. [Marks].

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender that photograph, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE PARKER: That will be received.

4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 244.

5 JUDGE PARKER: The previous photograph, you didn't tender? Was

6 that intentional?

7 MR. SMITH: Absolutely. I think really I'd like to tender the

8 whole package in addition to the ones that were marked.

9 If we can go to the next photograph, please. This is 0053-1236.

10 Q. Witness, can you indicate any of those -- any of those buildings

11 in the centre of that photograph? And what does that photograph generally

12 describe or show?

13 A. You can see the centre of Vukovar.

14 Q. And are there any particular buildings in the centre that you can

15 recognise?

16 A. I can recognise most of them.

17 Q. Do you recognise the Danube Hotel in that photograph?

18 A. Yes, you can see the Danube Hotel. Should I indicate where it is?

19 Q. If you can mark that with an A, please.

20 A. [Marks].

21 Q. Thank you. Do you recognise the post office in that photograph?

22 And if you can mark that with a B, please.

23 A. [Marks]. Yes.

24 Q. And can you see the municipal building in that photograph? And if

25 you do, if you could mark that with a C, please.

1 A. [Marks]. I've marked it.

2 Q. Thank you. And also can you recognise, I think, the defence

3 building in that photograph?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And if you can mark that with a D, please.

6 A. [Marks].

7 Q. And that building is a separate building to the municipal

8 building; is that correct?

9 A. The buildings are across from each other. It's on the very edge

10 of the photograph, perhaps you cannot see the municipal building, but they

11 were about 10 to 15 metres apart.

12 Q. And was the municipal building the headquarters of the Croatian

13 defence?

14 A. No. The municipal building was not the headquarters. The

15 headquarters was in the old military department building.

16 Q. And is that building on the photograph?

17 A. Yes, you can see a part of it.

18 Q. And can you mark that with an E, please.

19 A. [Marks].

20 Q. Was the defence building the same as the old military department

21 building?

22 A. Yes, it's in the same area.

23 Q. And the defence building, what was that being used for during

24 October and November 1991?

25 A. That's where the Vukovar defence command was.

1 Q. Thank you. If we can --

2 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender that photograph, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Before you do, I am somewhat confused. We have

4 three markings. Are they three distinct buildings? C, D and E? Or are

5 there two buildings? Could that be clarified.

6 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honour.

7 Q. Yes, Witness, it's a little bit unclear, and I may have made it

8 unclear myself. But are there two defence buildings or, in fact, is it

9 just the one?

10 A. There was one part of the defence ministry. However, inside that

11 compound there was several buildings. But as far as the military sector,

12 military department was concerned, that was one position. And then there

13 was the other position, and that was next to it. So the two positions

14 were alongside each other.

15 Q. And were -- sorry, both those buildings were in the same compound;

16 is that correct?

17 A. I'm talking about both of these areas. One of them was the

18 military part, and the other part belonged to the municipality. Both the

19 municipal and the military departments had their own buildings. I'm only

20 talking about the military, the recruitment office that was in one area,

21 and the municipal offices were next to that. So these were several

22 buildings that were next to each other.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Smith, perhaps if I asked.

24 You have marked as a C the municipal office. Is that in a

25 building that is entirely distinct from the buildings marked D and E?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they are completely separate

2 buildings.

3 JUDGE PARKER: The buildings marked D and E, are they also

4 separate buildings?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Each building is separate.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Now, the old military department is building E; is

7 that correct?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what it should be.

9 JUDGE PARKER: During October and November, or September, October

10 and November 1991, what was building E used for?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was used as the command for the

12 defence of the town of Vukovar.

13 JUDGE PARKER: And in that -- at that same time, what was

14 building D used for?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For military purposes also. Because

16 it was part of the recruitment office. The buildings marked as D and E

17 are actually one whole. It was the area that used to be used by the

18 recruitment office.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

21 JUDGE PARKER: That will be received, Mr. Smith.

22 MR. SMITH: Thank you for clearing that up, Your Honour.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 245.

24 MR. SMITH: If we can look at the next photograph, 0053-1237,

25 please.

1 Q. And, Witness, looking at this photograph, do you recognise that?

2 And, if you do, can you explain briefly what it is?

3 A. You can see the centre of Vukovar again. You can see the hotel,

4 the post office, the public accounting service. You can see the

5 high-storey building. You can see the market. You can see the old

6 workers' hall. You can see the Zagreb Nama department store building.

7 You can see the rowing club. Also the three bridges across the Vuka

8 River, and also the delta of the River Vuka, when it flows into the

9 Danube.

10 Q. Thank you. Could you mark the location of the market with an A,

11 please.

12 A. [Marks].

13 Q. And can you mark the post office with a B, please.

14 A. [Marks].

15 Q. And can you mark the public accounting service with a C, please.

16 A. [Marks].

17 Q. And you said that you could see the high-storey building. Can you

18 mark that with a D and tell the Court what that was being used for during

19 October and November 1991, please.

20 A. [Marks]. I don't know to what purposes the building was used.

21 All I know is that it was very damaged in the war.

22 Q. And you also said you could see the Zagreb Nama department store.

23 Could you mark that with an E, please.

24 A. [Marks].

25 Q. And the rowing club, can you mark that with an F, please.

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. And the old workers' hall, could you mark that with a G, please.

3 A. [Marks].

4 Q. And I think this is looking at Vukovar from the opposite direction

5 of the previous photograph. Can you see the municipal building on this

6 photograph, please.

7 A. You can't see it.

8 Q. Thank you. Are there any other central or public or obvious

9 locations that you can see on that photograph that you can point out to

10 us, please.

11 A. There is an Orthodox church here.

12 Q. If you can mark that with an H, please.

13 A. [Marks]. It was the occupational training school.

14 Q. Thank you. And are there any other public facilities that you can

15 identify on that photograph?

16 A. There was the old pensioners' home or settlement.

17 Q. If you can mark that with an I, please.

18 A. [Marks]. The Danube Hotel.

19 Q. If you could mark that with a J, please.

20 A. [Marks].

21 Q. Do you see a large building to the right of the Danube Hotel in

22 the centre of the photograph?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And do you know what that building is?

25 A. I don't know which building you mean, but it's a little bit hard

1 to see.

2 Q. Perhaps if you can just let us know whether there are any other

3 locations that would be publicly known in this photograph that you can

4 identify. Or have we run out?

5 A. I mentioned the school, the occupational training school. That

6 wasn't marked, especially. In the centre of town there were mostly shops.

7 There were no large companies or buildings of any particular cultural

8 significance in the centre.

9 Q. Can you mark the occupational training school with a K, please.

10 A. [Marks].

11 Q. And you said in the centre of town there was mostly shops. Is

12 there an area in that photograph where those shops are congregated

13 specifically or not?

14 A. It's hard to tell from this angle, but you could tell

15 approximately where it is.

16 Q. Perhaps if you can try and place a circle around the area of where

17 these main shops are, or were.

18 A. [Marks].

19 Q. Thank you. And those shops, were they the central shops for the

20 town, the main shops for the town?

21 A. Well, you could conclude that.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender this photograph, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 246, Your Honours.

1 MR. SMITH: If we can look at the next photograph, 0053-1238,

2 please.

3 Q. Witness, do you recognise this photograph?

4 A. Yes. This is Zmaj Jovanovica Street in Vukovar at that time.

5 Q. And when we look at this photograph, looking forward, are we

6 heading away from the centre of town or towards the centre?

7 A. This is leading in the direction away from the centre.

8 Q. Thank you. If we can look at the next photograph, please,

9 0053-1239.

10 Do you recognise this photograph?

11 A. Yes. It's the continuation of street that flows into Krasova

12 Street.

13 Q. And as we look at the photograph, does it head away from the

14 centre or towards the centre?

15 A. It leads away from the centre of town.

16 Q. Thank you. If we can look at the next photograph, please,

17 0053-1240.

18 Witness, do you recognise this photograph?

19 A. Yes. This is the far end of Krasova Street leading from the

20 centre of town towards Sajmiste.

21 Q. Thank you. If we can look at the next photograph, please,

22 0053-1241.

23 Witness, do you recognise this photograph?

24 A. Yes. This is the crossing of Krasova Street and Sajmiste, and

25 then the road runs on towards the barracks.

1 Q. Can you draw an arrow on the photograph to indicate the direction

2 of the barracks, please.

3 A. [Marks].

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender this photograph, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 247, Your Honour.

8 MR. SMITH: If we can look at the next photograph, please,

9 0053-1242.

10 Q. Witness, do you recognise this photograph?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And what area does it generally show, and are there any locations

13 within that photograph that you can identify?

14 A. This is an area known as Sajmiste, and this is the crossing that

15 we looked at a while ago. The cemetery is here, the firemen's hall, the

16 health centre, and the rest are private homes for the most part. But you

17 can also see the Stjepan Supanc school building.

18 Q. Could you mark the crossing that we saw in the previous photograph

19 with the letter A, please.

20 A. [Marks].

21 Q. Can you draw with an arrow, the direction of the JNA barracks,

22 please.

23 A. [Marks].

24 Q. And if you can mark with a B the cemetery, please.

25 A. [Marks].

1 Q. And the firemen's -- Witness, it appears that you've marked two

2 place was a B; is that correct?

3 A. Correct. Two cemeteries.

4 Q. And if you can mark with a C the health centre, please.

5 A. [Marks].

6 Q. And with a D, the Stjepan Supanc school building, please.

7 A. [Marks].

8 Q. Thank you. Are there any other particular locations of a public

9 nature that you can see in that photograph?

10 A. I mentioned the firemen's hall too.

11 Q. Can you mark that with an E, please.

12 A. [Marks].

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender that photograph, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 248, Your Honour.

17 MR. SMITH: If we can look at the next photo, please, 0053-1243.

18 Q. Witness, do you recognise the picture in this photograph?

19 A. Yes. This is the barracks in Vukovar.

20 Q. You mentioned that the buses or the bus that you were on and the

21 other buses were taken to the barracks and you parked inside in a circle.

22 Are you able to draw, with a line, the general location of where those

23 buses were parked?

24 A. [Marks].

25 Q. Thank you.

1 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender this photograph, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 249.

4 MR. SMITH: If we can look at the next photograph, please,

5 0053-1244.

6 Q. Witness, looking at this photograph are you able to recognise it?

7 A. This is the path leading into the barracks from Sajmiste.

8 Q. Thank you. If we can look at the next photograph, please. This

9 is 0053-1245.

10 Do you recognise that photograph?

11 A. Yes. That is the barracks reception facing Sajmiste.

12 Q. Thank you. And if we can look at the next photograph, please,

13 0053-1246. If this can be enlarged one level, please.

14 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think we had 247,

15 that number in the photograph, a while ago, and maybe my learned friend

16 could check if the correct photographs are being shown. Thank you.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Tapuskovic, thank you very much. The error was

18 just being spotted at that time as well.

19 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 If we can look at 0053-1246, please. It should be the previous

21 one. Thank you.

22 Q. Witness, do you recognise this area in the photograph?

23 A. I do.

24 Q. And can you tell us what the general area is, and if there is any

25 particular buildings that you can identify within that?

1 A. This is the far end of Sajmiste Street, outside the town itself.

2 In actual fact, it's the road to Negoslavci. This is the Vupik building.

3 They produce drinks. The other building is the old railway station. It's

4 called Vukovar Stari. And the brick works, Vukovar's brick works, the

5 brick factory itself. You can see part of the Velepromet compound, their

6 warehouses.

7 Q. If you could mark the Vupik factory with an A, please.

8 A. [Marks].

9 Q. And the old railway station with a B, please.

10 A. [Marks].

11 Q. And the brick factory with a C, please.

12 A. [Marks].

13 Q. And the part of the Velepromet compound that you can see with a D,

14 please.

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. And with an arrow, can you show the direction of Negoslavci,

17 please.

18 A. [Marks].

19 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender that photograph, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 250, Your Honour.

22 MR. SMITH: If I can call for 0053-1247, thank you. The next

23 photograph.

24 Q. Witness, are you able to identify the area in that photograph?

25 A. I assume that this is the road between Vukovar and Negoslavci, but

1 it's difficult to say which is where.

2 Q. Thank you. And if we can look at the next photograph, 0053-1248,

3 please.

4 It may be difficult, Witness, but can you recognise this area?

5 A. It's not easy, but I suppose that this is the junction along the

6 Vukovar-Negoslavci road, and this must be -- the road that's forking off

7 is the road leading to that farm.

8 Q. Are you able to show the direction of Negoslavci on this

9 photograph? And if you can, can you mark that with an arrow, please.

10 A. I may be wrong about this, but I think it's like this. [Marks].

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender this photograph, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 251, Your Honour.

15 MR. SMITH: And if we can show the witness 0053-1249, please.

16 Q. Witness, are you able to recognise the area in this photograph?

17 A. This is an area between the town of Vukovar. If you take the side

18 roads, and then you eventually end up at the Ovcara farm.

19 Q. Are you able to indicate the direction of Ovcara with an arrow,

20 please.

21 A. I'll do my best. [Marks].

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender that photograph, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 252, Your Honour.

1 MR. SMITH: If we can look at the next photograph, 0053-1250,

2 please.

3 Q. Witness, do you recognise the area depicted in this photograph?

4 A. I do. This is the Ovcara farm.

5 Q. Can you draw a ring around the Ovcara farm, please.

6 A. [Marks].

7 Q. You said you were taken off the buses at Ovcara. Can you draw a

8 line locating the approximate place where the buses parked, please.

9 A. [Marks]. Perhaps around here.

10 Q. Are you able to recognise the hangar that you were taken into,

11 that warehouse?

12 A. That's possible. I'm not positive from this angle, but it might

13 be the case.

14 Q. Okay. We understand that it would be an estimation at this stage,

15 but can you mark the place where you think it is, please, with an A?

16 A. [Marks].

17 Q. Are you able to mark the route that you took when you were placed

18 on the military truck before you jumped off? If you can do it on this

19 photograph, could you mark it? If not, we can go to another photograph.

20 A. [Marks].

21 Q. And, Witness, you've marked that photograph with an X. What does

22 that X represent, please?

23 A. This is where I might have jumped off that vehicle.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender this photograph, Your Honour. And I

1 ask that this one be tendered confidentially, please.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Why?

3 MR. SMITH: Just from the point of view that this witness may be

4 identified in relation to other people that might know that he was the

5 witness that jumped off that truck.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Too big a shot, I think, Mr. Smith.

7 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour, we'll leave it then. Thank

8 you.

9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 253, Your Honours.

10 MR. SMITH: If I could ask for the next photograph, please. This

11 is ERN number 0053-1251.

12 Q. Witness, looking at this photograph, do you recognise it?

13 A. Yes. This is the Ovcara farm.

14 Q. And do you see the hangar in which you were placed at Ovcara? And

15 if you do, could you mark it with an A, please.

16 A. Yes. [Marks].

17 Q. And if are able, can you mark the route that the military truck

18 took before you jumped out of it?

19 A. [Marks].

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender this photograph, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 254, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Smith, how many more of these are there?

25 MR. SMITH: I would say, Your Honour, about another five or six,

1 and then we're finished.

2 JUDGE PARKER: I think we might adjourn now and resume after the

3 break.

4 It's necessary to make two adjustments to our normal programme

5 today. First, it will be necessary for this break to be for half an hour,

6 so that we will resume at 10 minutes past 4.00. Secondly, because of a

7 meeting with some other Judges at 6.30, it will be necessary for us to

8 adjourn for the night at about 6.25. That's unavoidable, I'm sorry about

9 that. So that we will have a shorter two sessions when we resume at 10

10 past 4.00, and with a break somewhere around 5.10, 5.15, and then carrying

11 on.

12 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 4.21 p.m.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Smith, among the number of things that proved a

15 bit of a set-back during that break for me, and I'm sorry that one matter

16 delayed us, I am also told that one of the exhibits marked by the witness

17 did not take electronically and will need to be redone. It was, I think,

18 Exhibit 241, the main confrontation lines on the Exhibit 156 map.

19 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. I think --

20 JUDGE PARKER: On the witness's arrival.

21 MR. SMITH: Yes. I believe that was the second map that he

22 marked, the large version.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

24 MR. SMITH: For a moment, I thought the Defence had a secret

25 button to unmark the map, but I've spoken to them and I believe they

1 haven't.

2 JUDGE PARKER: I don't think you can blame the Defence, Mr. Smith,

3 nor yourself, nor us. I don't yet know why we lost two but -- yes.

4 MR. SMITH: I think e-court is good, Your Honour, it's just a

5 little bit cumbersome on some occasions.

6 JUDGE PARKER: I think we moved from one enlargement to another

7 before it was tendered.

8 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. Perhaps if -- I'll ask the

9 witness to remark that one after we finish this series of photographs.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.

11 MR. SMITH:

12 Q. Witness, do you see in front of you photograph 0053-1252, if you

13 look at that photograph on your screen, do you recognise that photograph?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. And on this one, if could you put a ring around the hangar that

16 you were taken into, and perhaps mark with an arrow the entrance to the

17 hangar in which you were taken, please.

18 A. [Marks].

19 Q. Thank you. And just a ring around the hangar. Thank you.

20 A. [Marks].

21 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender that photograph, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 255, Your Honour.

24 MR. SMITH: If we can look at the next photograph, 0053-1253.

25 Q. Witness, do you see that photograph in front of you, and do you

1 recognise what it's a photograph of?

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic.

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. In order for the witness

5 to be able to answer this question, maybe he should first be told when

6 this photograph was taken, which year, in view of what we can actually see

7 in the photograph.

8 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber has had in mind getting that clarified

9 when we reached the end of this batch. It seems fairly clear that they

10 are photographs some years after the relevant events. But I don't know

11 that the actual year will help the witness.

12 Carry on, Mr. Smith.

13 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. We will provide that

14 information at the end.

15 Q. Witness, are you able to recognise that photograph?

16 A. This is the hangar in question, and we're looking at it from the

17 inside, and towards the door leading to the outside.

18 Q. And this door, was this the door that you came in, or another one?

19 A. That's the door.

20 Q. And in the photograph we can see some tractors and farm machinery.

21 Was that machinery inside the hangar when you arrived in it, and perhaps

22 if you could explain again other than the people in the hangar, was there

23 any machinery in the hangar when you arrived there on the 20th of

24 November?

25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Smith, that's a complex way of going about it.

1 If this photograph was taken at the time of the others, it's clearly some

2 years after the events. We can hardly take the photograph as evidence

3 about machinery at the time.

4 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honour.

5 I ask that we look at the next photograph, which is 0053-1254.

6 Q. Witness, looking at this photograph, do you recognise -- do you

7 recognise it?

8 A. Yes, I do. This is the hangar at Ovcara, I assume.

9 Q. Thank you. I ask that we produce 0053-1255.

10 Witness, are you able to recognise this photograph?

11 A. It's similar to the one before. This is, I assume, the hangar at

12 Ovcara.

13 Q. Thank you. And I ask that we look at 0053-1256. If that could be

14 enlarged one level, please. And if it can include a little bit more of

15 the right-hand side. Thank you.

16 And, Witness, do you recognise that photograph?

17 A. It would be better if you could zoom in a little bit more. No,

18 no, it's not necessary, actually. I recognise what this is now. I can

19 see what the position is.

20 Q. And what does it depict?

21 A. This is the Ovcara farm, and this is a broader image of it.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I seek to tender the photographs in --

24 the whole group of photographs, the 26, in an unmarked form. I'm just

25 getting confirmation, but I believe these photographs were taken in 1997,

1 under the direction of an investigator at the Tribunal by someone from

2 outside of the Tribunal. And I have the information here that the

3 photograph album was made by Andrew Wright. He's the head of the

4 photographic unit in the U.K., and the photos were taken under the

5 supervision of the investigator working on the case in July 1997.

6 JUDGE PARKER: The 26 unmarked photographs will be received as a

7 group exhibit.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 256.

9 MR. SMITH: Thank you. And I would ask that we go back to

10 Exhibit 156, which is the map of Vukovar, and if we can enlarge it two

11 levels, please. That should suffice. Thank you.

12 Q. Witness, looking at this map of Vukovar again, unfortunately the

13 markings that you made in relation the confrontation lines in October,

14 November 1991, they weren't recorded on the exhibit earlier, so we

15 apologise, but we just ask, if you can take your time again, and mark the

16 confrontation lines that you were first aware of when you took up your

17 position with the defence of the town. And please take your time.

18 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic.

20 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would just like to

21 help both the witness and the Prosecutor. We're talking about the

22 continuous line that the witness drew, so he doesn't need to mark each

23 individual line. So we're talking about the full line with which you

24 indicated all the lines of defence.

25 Thank you.

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

2 MR. SMITH: Thank you.

3 Q. If you can mark the confrontation lines, please.

4 A. [Marks].

5 Q. Thank you. And, Witness, if we look at the confrontation line by

6 the JNA barracks, can you explain whether that line is going through the

7 barracks or whether it's on the centre of Vukovar side, or on the

8 Negoslavci side of the JNA barracks, if you can just clarify. It's a

9 little bit difficult to see.

10 A. The line of confrontation or separation was between the barracks

11 and the town. It actually went through the middle of the town. The front

12 lines were also on the approaches to the town at Mitnica, Borovo Naselje,

13 Borovo Selo, towards Brsadin. They went through the town itself as well

14 as around the town.

15 Q. Thank you very much. That's clarified that.

16 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I seek to tender that map.

17 JUDGE PARKER: I think it should be received as Exhibit 241 in the

18 place of the one that we tried before.

19 MR. SMITH: Yes, I believe that's the number.

20 And the next exhibit I'd like to show the witness is exhibit

21 number 103, which is the map of Eastern Croatia. If we can have the

22 bottom half of the map showing, please, from Vukovar down to the end. And

23 if we can enlarge it one further layer, please. I think that's good.

24 Thank you.

25 Q. Witness, this is a map of Eastern Croatia, showing the southern

1 part. Do you see Stari Jankovci on the map, the place where you were

2 taken before you were taken to Sid, then Sremska Mitrovica?

3 A. Yes, you can.

4 Q. And can you circle that village, please?

5 A. [Marks].

6 Q. Now, you mentioned that you were first detained in a village

7 called Ceric. That village doesn't appear on the map. Can you tell us

8 about how far away Ceric is from Stari Jankovci?

9 A. Perhaps a few kilometres. Three or four kilometres.

10 Q. And would that be three to four kilometres towards Vinkovci or

11 Vukovar or further south?

12 A. Towards Vukovar. From Stari Jankovci towards Vukovar, some

13 five -- four to five kilometres.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender that map, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 257, Your Honour.

18 MR. SMITH:

19 Q. Now, Witness, yesterday you told us some of the people that you

20 identified as being detainees in the hangar at Ovcara, and you mentioned

21 about seven or eight names, and then you said it was difficult for you to

22 remember the other names at that time, but you would be able to perhaps

23 identify them if you saw a list. We'll now produce to you a list of

24 people, and if you can have a look at that list and go through it page by

25 page, and mark anyone that you may have seen at -- you did see at Ovcara.

1 And if you can mark the page and then hand that page to the usher and then

2 that will be shown on the ELMO, please.

3 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, this is the annex to the indictment.

4 Q. Perhaps if you can underline the name, and if we need a pen, it

5 might be better.

6 A. I have a question, please.

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. Is it just in the hangar, or also when I was taken away?

9 Q. Also when you were taken away. Thank you.

10 A. Thank you.

11 I would just like to say something. The person next to whose name

12 I wrote Kemo, I assume that that's the person who was very close to me in

13 the hangar. So I wrote their nickname next to the name. I think that's

14 the name and nickname that go together.

15 Q. Thank you. And just to clarify: The names that you have

16 underlined in red, they are people that you saw at the hangar and include

17 the people that were taken on the military truck to the direction of

18 Grabovo; is that correct?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. If I can ask you to look at page 3 that you marked. And is there

21 anyone on that list that you can identify that you saw at the hospital

22 before you were taken to the JNA barracks?

23 A. Gudelj was in the hospital.

24 Q. And can you mark alongside of his name with, say, a VH, the

25 initials, please?

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. Thank you. And you if could look at page 4 of the annex, is there

3 anyone else on that page that you saw at the hospital?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And if you can look at page 5 and 6.

6 A. Mandic, Marko was a staff member at the hospital. I saw him at

7 the hospital often.

8 Q. I would just like you to mark any name of anyone that you saw at

9 the hospital on the 20th of November, or between the 19th and the 20th.

10 Thank you. Witness, I noticed the name of Marko Mandic, you had

11 the letters VH and then you crossed the initials out. Does that mean that

12 you didn't see him on the morning of or the evening before the 19th to

13 the 20th of November?

14 A. Yes, I'm not sure that I saw him there that day, but he was a

15 member of staff, so I saw him during that period. But I really am not

16 sure whether I saw him on that exact day.

17 Q. Thank you. Witness, you've testified that you left the Vukovar

18 Hospital on the 20th of November, and in a number of your prior statements

19 you state that you may have left on the -- you may have left on the 19th

20 and arrived at the hospital on the 18th. Are you uncertain about the date

21 that you arrived at the hospital and left the hospital? Can you explain?

22 A. Well, in a way there was a dispute whether it was the 18th,

23 the 19th or the 20th. But the way things seem, in actual fact, I arrived

24 in the hospital compound on the 19th, and it was on the 20th that we were

25 taken away from the hospital. And I spent a total of one night at the

1 hospital.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I have no further questions for the

4 witness.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Smith. Did you mean to

6 tender the marked list?

7 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 258.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good

11 afternoon to all. My learned friend has tendered this list into evidence,

12 and one thing I would like to ask him is to provide copies, if possible,

13 for the Defence teams, the ones marked by the witness, since we don't have

14 those.

15 MR. SMITH: We will do that.

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

17 Cross-examination by Mr. Vasic:

18 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Let me introduce myself. I'm Miroslav Vasic

19 on behalf of Mr. Mrksic.

20 A. Good afternoon to you too, sir.

21 Q. There is one thing I would like to ask you before we start. We

22 both speak a language that we understand. Since there are protective

23 measures in place for you, please make a break after each of my questions.

24 There are two reasons for this: Firstly, to keep your voice from carrying

25 over my microphone and give me sufficient time to switch my mic off; the

1 other reason being to give the interpreters sufficient time to interpret

2 everything that is being said in its entirety, so that everybody else in

3 the courtroom knows exactly what transpires between the two of us. Thank

4 you.

5 You testified in chief about a number of statements that you gave.

6 You confirmed what he put to you. I want to ask you several questions

7 that were not encompassed by my learned friend's questions.

8 On the 27th of April, 2004 at the municipal court in Zagreb, were

9 you not heard by the investigating magistrate of the district court in

10 Belgrade in relation to the so-called Belgrade Ovcara case?

11 A. Yes, I gave a statement there.

12 Q. Thank you, sir. You testified yesterday about the late spring and

13 early summer of 1991 when you heard explosions in Vukovar. You talked

14 about that yesterday. What I would like to ask you: Did you at that time

15 hear about some people disappearing from Vukovar, going missing, residents

16 of Vukovar?

17 A. I don't know about anyone disappearing. I didn't hear anything

18 like that, but perhaps if you clarify. I'm not sure what you have in

19 mind, sir.

20 Q. Thank you very much. I will try to substantiate. Were there

21 rumours in Vukovar that certain people had been led away in the evenings

22 and that all trace of them was lost? Did you hear anything about that?

23 A. I didn't hear a thing about anything like that. I really don't

24 know.

25 Q. Thank you very much.

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like now to move

2 on to a topic which relates to this witness's position in September 1991.

3 I fear that perhaps his identity may be in danger of being revealed, and I

4 surmise that this might call for private session.

5 JUDGE PARKER: We will move to private and see whether it's proven

6 necessary.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Q. Sir, in addition to this group that we have mentioned, did you

1 know that there were other groups doing the same sort of job in Vukovar,

2 laying mines?

3 A. I don't know if there were any other such parallel groups, but I

4 do know that there were groups laying mines, and my predecessor told me a

5 thing or two about that. In essence, however, at individual positions

6 there were people laying mines independently. I even think that the

7 police, the MUP, had their own units in charge of similar work. But I'm

8 not certain about it.

9 Q. Thank you. Within the scope of your tasks related to the laying

10 of mines, did you ever hear of a person named Franjo Kracak? Was he one

11 of the people going about the same tasks and assignments? Are you

12 familiar with that name?

13 A. I wasn't familiar with this name at the time. I did meet the

14 gentleman later on, but I really can't say what his activities were at the

15 time. I didn't know then and I still don't know.

16 Q. Thank you. Was your group based in the building of the

17 occupational training school?

18 A. Yes. It was in the basement of the former occupational training

19 school.

20 Q. You say the former school. Does this mean that it was no longer

21 an occupational training school back in 1991? If this was the case, what

22 was it?

23 A. It was something like a social hall. Occasionally used as a

24 disco. It was a building used by the young of Vukovar.

25 Q. Thank you very much. As the group was going about its activities,

1 I assume that you got your explosives from the mine bases. Where exactly

2 were these mine bases or storages that you used for your own explosives

3 and for your own missions?

4 A. They were in warehouses and storages where mines and explosives

5 were stored. This was in several different locations.

6 Q. Would you be so kind as to share with us what these locations were

7 of these various warehouses? I'm talking about September, October and

8 November 1991.

9 A. One such storage place was in the basement of Vukovar's high

10 school. There were two more storage rooms along the street near the

11 water-tower, and two more along the street leading to the high school.

12 Q. Thank you very much. Were any of these storage rooms located in

13 what used to be known as the JNA street?

14 A. Yes, the JNA street, that's near the water-tower.

15 Q. Thank you. You said yesterday that those were anti-personnel and

16 anti-tank mines which were standard weapons in the JNA. Do you know how

17 the mines got to be there in those storage rooms and what quantity are we

18 talking about? What was the quantity at the time when you became a member

19 of that group?

20 A. I don't know where they came from or the exact quantity, but there

21 were quite a number of mines there. Several hundred, several thousands,

22 if you like.

23 Q. Thank you very much. You said that it was the defence commander

24 of Vukovar personally who handed out missions and assignments to your

25 group, having previously agreed those with certain local commanders and

1 commanders that acted along certain defence lines. Is that right?

2 A. Yes, you could say that.

3 Q. The commanders of individual defence lines had to be familiarised

4 with these activities in order to be able to know where mines were being

5 laid on the one hand, and on the other to provide security for you as you

6 were going about your assignments laying mines; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you very much. You said yesterday that you kept records,

9 didn't you? What I wish to know is whether you gave a set of your entire

10 documentation to the defence commander and whether another set or copy was

11 given to the commander of whichever defence line it was that the mines had

12 been laid at?

13 A. This would not have been possible at the time. It wasn't possible

14 to have daily reporting or to send anything in writing to Jastreb on a

15 daily basis. But each and every commander working along the confrontation

16 line had the duty to report exactly on how many mines had been laid and

17 where, and they had to report to Jastreb directly.

18 Q. Thank you. So the commanders of certain defence lines were

19 duty-bound to submit these reports. Do you know if the commanders of

20 certain defence lines sometimes laid mines along their own stretches even

21 without previously consulting the commander or one of your own group?

22 A. I did have information to indicate that there were groups who

23 determined their own areas and made decisions in relation to those.

24 Q. Thank you very much.

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know if this is

1 the right time for a break.

2 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues] ... interrupt

3 mine-laying, Mr. Vasic, but if we've reached a convenient point we'll

4 break now. And we'll resume at 25 minutes to 6.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 5.15 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 5.40 p.m.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Vasic.

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Sir, before the break we talked about some activities undertaken

10 by the commanders of certain lines along their axis in respect of laying

11 down mines. What I'm interested in is if they had their own stockpiles of

12 mines which they used in order to block certain sections. Do you know

13 anything about that?

14 A. I don't know whether they had their own separate sources or

15 warehouses for mines, except for the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

16 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell me when you took up your duties

17 when the group started to operate? You explained that at one point the

18 group laid down minefields along the Mitnica line, near the Resa

19 restaurant; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, amongst other places.

21 Q. Thank you. At the time was the commander in this section

22 Mr. Soljic, Ivan Soljic?

23 A. It's possible. I'm not quite sure.

24 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell me where did you lay down

25 minefields in Borovo Naselje along the line of separation. If you can

1 recall, then please tell us.

2 A. This was, for example, in the area of Trpinja and Borovo Selo.

3 Q. Thank you. Your group also laid down anti-personnel and anti-tank

4 mines in the Bogdanovci sector; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, in the direction of Bogdanovci as well. I mean, it depends

6 on the time period that we're talking about.

7 Q. Could you please tell me, this laying down of minefields in the

8 direction of Bogdanovci, which month as this in 1991, if you can recall?

9 A. It was, I assume, sometime in October.

10 Q. Thank you. You also laid down mines in Luzac and also in the

11 cornfields around Luzac; is this correct?

12 A. Yes, our unit did do that also.

13 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell me whether this was also done in

14 October 1991?

15 A. Probably.

16 Q. When it laid down mines in the area of Bogdanovci, did your unit

17 lay down mines in the cornfields and did you also lay down mines some --

18 in some areas of the Vukovar-Vinkovci road?

19 A. We did not lay down mines around the village of Bogdanovci. We

20 did it around the settlement of Luzac, so it was in the direction of the

21 village of Bogdanovac. As for the direction leading to Vinkovci, we did

22 not lay down mines on the actual road.

23 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to ask you to take Exhibit 240.

24 That's the map where you marked the lines, the front lines at the request

25 of my learned friend. So using the map, could you indicate with crosses

1 the positions of minefields in these sectors? Could you please use a

2 different colour though? And can we also zoom in a little bit, this map,

3 zoom in by one step.

4 JUDGE THELIN: Don't you mean 241, Mr. Vasic?

5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] No, because I would like the witness

6 to draw in the positions which are on the Mitnica-Luzac-Bogdanovci spots,

7 so I would like to look at the previous map. I think that we can see it

8 there. Later we will take the map 241 to indicate the minefields in the

9 town itself.

10 So can we zoom out for one degree, one step, as we had it at the

11 beginning so that we can see? Perhaps we can start from Mitnica, as it

12 is.

13 Could the usher please give the witness a different colour marker?

14 Q. And you, sir, can mark on the Mitnica line by crosses where you

15 recollect the minefields were that your group laid down.

16 A. Well, the map is a little bit small. I'm not sure if I will be

17 able to do it properly.

18 Q. Thank you very much. Well, maybe we can zoom in the map in the

19 Mitnica sector. This is the lower right-hand portion of the map. And

20 then we will take it section by section.

21 Can you see it well now?

22 A. Well, it's a little bit better now.

23 Q. Thank you. So could you please indicate with crosses where these

24 minefields were in the Mitnica sector?

25 A. [Marks].

1 Q. Thank you. Can we now move to the next sector; that's the

2 Sajmiste sector? This is the sector in front of the JNA barracks.

3 A. Very well. [Marks].

4 Q. Thank you. Could we now move to the left section of the map where

5 we can see Luzac and Bogdanovci, and this middle part we will deal with on

6 the other map.

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps in order to save

8 this as an exhibit, maybe we could tender it as an exhibit. I don't know

9 how much time we have before what the witness has indicated will

10 disappear.

11 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 259.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

14 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, just a small comment. I think this

15 cross-examination will become quite detailed, and it's not clear at this

16 stage at what time-frame these mines were laid, and I'm just wondering for

17 the transcript whether that could be clarified so that it's not confusing

18 when we get to the end of all of this.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Well, the confusion has already started, Mr. Smith,

20 with your evidence. And Mr. Vasic's will add to it. And when it's all

21 over, I hope you will be able to show me how relevant it is to our issues.

22 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Because at the moment, it escapes me.

24 MR. SMITH: We'll do that, Your Honour.

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

1 I would ask the usher to move to the left section of the map where

2 we could see Luzac and Bogdanovci; perhaps we can move to that section of

3 the map now. Left section of the map. Can we move the map towards the

4 right so that we can see the left section of the map? Very well. We need

5 to move it a little more to the right. Thank you.

6 Q. I would like to ask the witness to mark in the Luzac sector the

7 minefields that were laid down.

8 A. [Marks].

9 Q. Thank you. Can you mark the minefields in the Bogdanovac sector?

10 JUDGE PARKER: Before you move on, Mr. Vasic, one at least of the

11 blue crosses that has just been marked seems to have no relationship to

12 the previous red-line marking. Do you want to find out whether that is

13 additional to the red line?

14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

15 Q. Well, my question was in that general area, but I will be more

16 specific.

17 Sir, this blue cross that is outside of this red line, I would say

18 it's somewhere below the Luzac neighbourhood, can you please tell us what

19 it represents?

20 A. It's a minefield that is outside of the Luzac neighbourhood.

21 Q. It was outside of the front line?

22 A. No, this was not strictly along the front line, but it was a place

23 where a possible attack by the enemy forces was expected.

24 Q. Thank you very much.

25 Your Honours, I think that the answer is now clear.

1 Thank you very much. Now I would like to ask you to draw the

2 minefields or indicate where the minefields were in the -- in the

3 Bogdanovci area?

4 A. I already did that.

5 Q. Oh, thank you. I didn't notice that.

6 Can we move the map to the right a little bit, so that we can see

7 Bogdanovci?

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I suggest that -- I

9 would like to tender this map into evidence as an exhibit.

10 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 260.

12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

13 Can we shift the map to the right so that we can see Bogdanovci?

14 Thank you. A little bit more to the right, please. Thank you, thank you.

15 Q. Can you please indicate now where the minefields were in the

16 Bogdanovci sector?

17 A. Unfortunately, I cannot. Because I don't know.

18 Q. All right. Very well. Thank you. I will not be needing this map

19 anymore. I would like to ask to see Exhibit 241 now. That's the other

20 map.

21 And while we're waiting to see that map, I would like to ask you

22 the following, sir: These positions that you indicated at Mitnica, Luzac

23 and near the barracks, when were these minefields laid, in which month in

24 1991?

25 A. This was in the course of October and November 1991.

1 Q. Thank you. Can we please zoom in on the centre of Vukovar? A

2 little. By one degree.

3 Can you use crosses to mark the minefields along this part of the

4 front line? Perhaps the usher could help you with the magic pen.

5 A. This is going to be slightly difficult, but I can make a rough

6 sketch for you. [Marks]. This is about it. By no means everything, but

7 most of it.

8 Q. Thank you. You said yesterday there were over 50. I won't make

9 you mark all the positions now because I know that's an impossible task.

10 My apologies, can you hear me now? Because I think my microphone

11 was on.

12 Needless to say, I am not going to make you mark all the positions

13 you mentioned yesterday; there were over 50, you said. But what I want it

14 know is: In addition to these minefields that you have indicated, along

15 the front lines or near the front lines, did you also -- did you also

16 booby-trap or block any areas along the Danube?

17 A. No, not particularly. Unless you consider the area between

18 Mitnica and Sotin to be along the banks of the Danube. It's not far from

19 the Danube.

20 Q. Thank you. What about the Vuka? Did you lay any mines along

21 Ivana Gorana Kovacica Street?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Could you please be so kind as to mark those minefields near the

24 Vuka for us?

25 A. [Marks].

1 Q. Thank you very much.

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I move that this map be admitted into

3 evidence. Just one question before that.

4 Q. These minefields, when were these laid, the ones you've just

5 marked?

6 A. That's while I was still active on these missions, and it may have

7 been early November or sometime around then.

8 Q. Thank you very much.

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I move that the map be

10 admitted into evidence before we lose it.

11 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 261, Your Honours.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Q. Did your unit or any other unit that you heard of booby-trap the

15 area around the Eltz Palace?

16 A. I didn't know about that. My group didn't. If there were any

17 mines being laid there at all.

18 Q. Thank you. Were there any minefields anywhere else in addition to

19 what you've mentioned, the Resa restaurant at Mitnica, any minefields to

20 prevent the enemy from crossing the Danube?

21 A. I do not know of any.

22 Q. Thank you. Did your group lay mines along the following

23 check-points: Osa 1, Osa 2, and Osa 3 check-points under the command of

24 Commander Josip Tomasevic?

25 A. Yes. My group did lay mines in some of those areas.

1 Q. Did your group lay mines along Patkovica Street and Kras Street

2 and the Stjepan Supanc school?

3 A. There were no mines along Patkovica Street but there were some

4 along Kras Street. And last but not least, there were no lines at the

5 Stjepan Supanc school.

6 Q. Thank you very much. In reply to one of the questions asked by my

7 learned friends, you said that for the most part you would scatter mines

8 and you explained exactly what that means. I suppose it was when you had

9 to lay mines on top of asphalt surfaces or surfaced roads and other such

10 areas?

11 A. Yes, I think that applies.

12 Q. Thank you very much. What about when you had to lay mines on the

13 ground in areas such as gardens and cornfields? Did you not dig the mines

14 into the ground and conceal them?

15 A. No, not for the most part.

16 Q. Thank you. What about your group in the firemen's hall sector,

17 and did they not lay any anti-personnel mines there?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What about Slavonskih Brigada and Irinej? Were mines not laid

20 between the houses so as to prevent any break-throughs by the enemy?

21 A. Yes, but only along the confrontation line.

22 Q. Thank you. Do you know if throughout October and November 1991,

23 surprise mines, so-called surprise mines were used to booby-trap discarded

24 weapons and tanks belonging to the JNA? Were these discarded weapons

25 booby-trapped in any special way?

1 A. No, not that I knew of. My group certainly didn't do that. I

2 wonder if anyone at all did.

3 Q. Thank you very much, sir. You said that at one point in time you

4 advised the members of your unit to leave town. You stayed behind with

5 your parents. What I want to know is: Did you conceal any of the maps in

6 your possession before you left for the hospital? Did you store them in a

7 safe place?

8 A. Yes. I buried them in the ground.

9 Q. Did you later find them, or did anyone else find them, and were

10 they used when the area was cleared?

11 A. The JNA soldiers found it, or the Yugoslav soldiers. After I

12 provided them with the relevant information during one of my interviews

13 that I was made to give while in captivity.

14 Q. Throughout all these activities that you've told us about, were

15 you wearing uniform?

16 A. When I joined the armed forces there were no uniforms available,

17 but I did have certain parts of the military outfit. For example, I had

18 the boots, but there was a severe shortage of military equipment, and I

19 did not have the full kit.

20 Q. Thank you very much. You did not have the entire outfit, but did

21 you have certain distinguishing marks or insignia that you placed on your

22 uniform in order to display them?

23 A. We were given ZNG insignia. I didn't have time to pin them on to

24 my clothes, to fasten them, but I did have them on me at all times.

25 Q. Thank you very much. Those who had no uniform to wear would

1 attach these insignia to their civilian clothes, right?

2 A. Probably.

3 Q. Thank you. On your group's missions was there a number of ZNG

4 people from Nasice involved? They came to Vukovar from Nasice?

5 A. Yes, that's true.

6 Q. Were there ZNG members from any other part of Croatia, and did

7 they have uniforms when they came to Vukovar?

8 A. Yes, they did. They had better outfits than we did, those of us

9 locals. People from the area who only got involved later on, at a later

10 stage.

11 Q. Thank you very much. This group that you belonged to, did it have

12 permanent radio communication with the Vukovar defence headquarters,

13 Vukovar defence command headquarters?

14 A. You could say there was a permanent radio link. I personally had

15 one.

16 Q. Thank you. I hope we're not -- we're not getting too close to

17 revealing your identity, but I'm about to change the subject anyway.

18 Do you know if the defence headquarters had the same sort of radio

19 link linking them to the commands of other theatres of battle?

20 A. Yes, there was a high degree of communication by using radio

21 links.

22 Q. Thank you. How did units on the ground get in touch with any

23 medical staff? For example, if somebody got wounded in the course of an

24 operation, was there a radio link to the hospital as well?

25 A. Yes, I do remember there being one.

1 Q. Yesterday in answer to a question by my learned friend you spoke

2 of the personnel changes in the Vukovar defence command headquarters.

3 When Mr. Dedakovic left Vukovar, we assume that he went to Zagreb to get

4 help. At a later time, did Mr. Dedakovic perhaps return to Vukovar with

5 the help?

6 A. That wasn't the only change in the command's personnel. But as

7 far as I know, Dedakovic never returned.

8 Q. So he didn't bring any help to Vukovar, no relief, the relief that

9 he had left in order to get?

10 A. That's what I believe.

11 Q. Thank you. You spoke about certain other changes to the

12 headquarters personnel. Can you please mention any major ones and specify

13 when they occurred, in as far as anywhere of relevance to Vukovar's

14 defence as a whole?

15 A. It's not my place to say what's relevant and what isn't, but I do

16 know about this one replacement when Commander Soljic left and Mr. Filip

17 Karaula replaced him.

18 Q. Thank you very much. Can you remember the month that this

19 occurred?

20 A. Probably sometime in November 1991.

21 Q. Thank you. You testified in chief yesterday about the fact that

22 on the 16th of November you were on a mission. Were you laying mines

23 along Kras Street?

24 A. Yes, that's right.

25 Q. Two members of your group were killed on that occasion and one was

1 wounded. Subsequently you went straight to the Vukovar defence command

2 headquarters, right?

3 A. No, it wasn't quite like that. We first evacuated the wounded and

4 got them to the hospital, after which we evacuated the dead. The next

5 morning I came to the headquarters, but there was no effective command

6 anymore.

7 Q. On the 16th of November, the evening of the 16th of November or

8 the morning of the 17th, did you have a radio link to the command

9 headquarters? Were you in touch at the time?

10 A. While on a mission we would often switch our radios off, or at

11 least I did, to make sure the mission was safe. Therefore, I was not in

12 touch with them at the time.

13 Q. Thank you very much. But at no point in time were you informed

14 that the command -- defence command headquarters were bent on leaving

15 town. You actually only realised once you were there and saw for yourself

16 what the matter was; is that right?

17 A. Yes, that's right.

18 Q. Before the Vukovar defence command left the headquarters, do you

19 remember if there had been a meeting held at the command at which

20 Dr. Bosanac put forward a proposal to the effect that those who would not

21 be joining the attempt to break out, to break through the enemy lines

22 should go to the hospital, discard their uniforms, put on white overcoats

23 and that she would do her best to arrange for them to join the convoy of

24 medical staff and humanitarians?

25 A. I don't know about that meeting.

1 Q. Thank you. What about once you arrived at the hospital? Did you

2 notice that any of the wounded there were putting on white overcoats,

3 applying plaster-casts although there was no need in order to be able

4 to -- or, rather, in the hope of joining the medical humanitarian convoy?

5 A. I know nothing about that.

6 Q. I have one more question from this set of questions before we run

7 out of time. Yesterday you said --

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Actually, Your Honours, I think it

9 might be a good idea to go into private session for this question. It

10 relates to the witness personally.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Vasic.

7 We resume tomorrow at 2.15. Hopefully in another fortnight when

8 we have the third court available we will get a little more reasonable

9 share of morning sittings, which may make people a lot happier.

10 We will now adjourn for the night.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.26 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Friday, the 10th day of March,

13 2006, at 2.15 p.m.

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