1 Tuesday, 14 March 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. My apologies for having kept

7 everybody waiting.

8 Sir, could I remind you of the affirmation you made at the

9 beginning of your evidence, which still applies.

10 Mr. Vasic.

11 WITNESS: EMIL CAKALIC [Resumed]

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Good

14 afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.

15 Cross-examination by Mr. Vasic: [Continued].

16 Q. Mr. Cakalic, good afternoon. I would just like to remind you

17 yesterday at the start of my cross-examination, I would like to ask you

18 after I put my question, that you wait a little bit before you start

19 answering so that the interpreters can complete their interpretation of

20 the question. Thank you.

21 Yesterday you mentioned the nature of your contacts with Mr. Marin

22 Vidic. We've heard from Mrs. Bosanac here that Marin Vidic, shortly

23 before the fall of Vukovar, intended to talk to Mr. Goran Hadzic, and I

24 think that this was also the topic of a government meeting of the Republic

25 of Croatia on the 11th of November, 1991. Did you know anything about the

1 intention of Mr. Vidic to speak to Mr. Hadzic?

2 A. That's the first time that I'm hearing of it.

3 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you mentioned members of the Vukovar

4 Territorial Defence. Did you know a person by the name of Stanko

5 Vujanovic?

6 A. No. Perhaps I knew him just superficially.

7 Q. What about Mr. Milan Vujovic?

8 A. Well, it's a question which Vujovic. There are many Vujovics in

9 Vukovar. We clarified this in Belgrade that that wasn't the person that I

10 meant.

11 Q. Did you know Mr. Dusan Jaksic?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Very well. Thank you very much. Could you please tell me if you

14 remember that at one point the JNA barracks in Vukovar was blockaded and

15 it was supposed to surrender to the Croatian defence forces. Do you

16 remember that?

17 A. Yes, I do. The soldiers apparently flew the white flag and then

18 when the soldiers were supposed to -- when they were on the point of

19 entering the barracks, the flag had disappeared.

20 Q. Can you remember what time of the year it was, if you are unable

21 to remember the exact day?

22 A. It was perhaps in mid-November or maybe a little bit earlier. I

23 cannot remember the exact day.

24 Q. Thank you. You're talking about 1991; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Do you know that from September 1991 there was the staff and

2 logistics of the Serb Territorial Defence at Velepromet?

3 A. Yes, we all knew that something was going on, even where it was

4 going on. It obviously was happening at Velepromet because we could

5 observe the consequences of that.

6 Q. Thank you very much. Yesterday we talked about how you got to the

7 hospital and also about the time that you spent there. What I would like

8 to know is if you remember when you boarded the bus going from the

9 hospital to the barracks. Do you remember seeing people wearing hospital

10 uniforms or white coats or jackets but who were not hospital staff?

11 A. You mean inside the hospital or in front of the hospital?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. I didn't really pay any attention to that. I was just thinking

14 about the future.

15 Q. Did you see people dressed like this in the bus, the bus that you

16 boarded once you left the hospital?

17 A. I don't remember, no.

18 Q. Can I just remind you that in the conversation you had with the

19 Canadian lieutenant-colonel, Ms. Kim Carter, you said that these people

20 were in the buses and that you even advised them that they should take off

21 these coats? Do you remember that?

22 A. Well, if you had put the question like that, I would have replied,

23 yes. These were people who were supposed to go to the same place that I

24 was going to, but they had put on white coats in order to possibly protect

25 themselves.

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Cakalic. Do you know a person by the name of

2 Zdenko Novak?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. Thank you. Do you know him from before these events or did you

5 meet him during these events in 1991 in Vukovar?

6 A. Well, we all knew each other by sight, we knew each other by

7 nicknames or first name or our last name. I learnt a lot about Zdenko

8 Novak when he was taken to Belgrade when his father made great efforts to

9 save him. And it wasn't just his father, it was others too.

10 Q. Thank you. I mentioned the buses that took you to the barracks

11 from the hospital. Am I right when I say that these were Cazmatrans

12 buses, the company from Vukovar with Vukovar registration plates?

13 A. I thought that these were Vukovar buses, but the young men told me

14 that these were not Vukovar buses, so I believed them. I don't always

15 have to be right. Don't ask me about the colour either. I don't recall

16 the colour at all now.

17 Q. I'm not going to ask you about the colour, of course. But I will

18 ask you the following: In 1993 in this interview you had with the

19 Canadian army lieutenant-colonel said that these were Cazmatrans buses

20 with Vukovar licence plates?

21 A. Yes, I thought that these were our buses, our buses from Vukovar.

22 Q. Thank you. At one point the soldiers who were searching you as

23 you were leaving the hospital said that you were supposed to be exchanged

24 for officers, soldiers and their families who were in the territory of

25 Croatia in the hands of the Croatian armed forces. Not you personally but

1 you as a group.

2 A. I really don't remember. The thinking was that we were all going

3 to be saved together. This is what we were aiming for, what we were

4 thinking of, but this didn't happen.

5 Q. Thank you. I am not going to deal with the barracks and the

6 hospital anymore. My colleagues will deal with that, because we're trying

7 to save time.

8 What I will ask you is it the following: What time did you leave

9 the barracks to go to Ovcara? Did you look at a watch or can you tell us

10 approximately what time it was?

11 A. It was sometime after 2.00. We arrived at Ovcara at around 2.30,

12 I think.

13 Q. Did you look at a watch or is this just an assessment?

14 A. Well, no. I mean, you know that everything that we were going

15 through, that whole process was quite difficult and painful.

16 Q. Yesterday you described how you disembarked from the buses at

17 Ovcara, and you told us that the buses in front of you emptied first and

18 then the next bus would come and so on. Is that how it happened?

19 A. Yes. The buses stopped in front of the hangar, maybe 10 or 15

20 metres away. In Belgrade three lawyers asked me about that, one after the

21 other, and then finally I said it was between 10 and 30 metres. Don't

22 hold me to my word. I wasn't sure what the distance was, but the next

23 time, as soon as I get to Vukovar, I'm going to measure the exact

24 distance.

25 I'm sorry, you put a question to me but I was talking about

1 something else. Could you please repeat your question?

2 Q. No problem at all. What I asked was that the bus that was

3 emptied, would it leave and then be replaced by the next bus so that

4 people could disembark from that bus?

5 A. Yes. The place where people were getting off the buses would be

6 where one bus after another unloaded its passengers. Once that bus left

7 the next bus would come, the second, the third bus, and finally the fifth

8 bus. I don't know where they turned around.

9 I mean do you know how we were running into the hangar? We kept

10 our heads down, we needed to protect our heads. It didn't even occur to

11 me to think about where the buses were turning around and where they were

12 going after.

13 Q. I'm not going to ask you that. I'm not going ask you about where

14 they turned around. All I was asking you is how they were moving in front

15 of the hangar.

16 A. Yes, that is how they moved.

17 Q. Yesterday you talked about the gauntlet in front of the hangar

18 that you had to run through on your way out of the bus. Can you remember

19 how far the gauntlet was from the bus that would stop to unload its

20 passengers? You don't have to give us the exact distance. Approximately.

21 A. Well, more than a metre and a half away for sure.

22 Q. And can you please tell me if you can tell how long was the

23 gauntlet? Did it reach the hangar itself or did it stop short before the

24 hangar?

25 A. They asked the same question in Belgrade, and I said that the next

1 time I go I'm going to please get your address and then I can let you know

2 exactly how far it was from the entrance of the hangar.

3 I don't know. I mean, I think that as soon as -- I already showed

4 you under which conditions we were entering the hangar. This was an

5 unpleasant event that I'm trying to forget as much as possible, so it's

6 not so easy for me every time to recall these painful memories.

7 Q. I'm sorry that I am in the position to contribute to your

8 discomfort, but I do have to ask you anything that I believe would be of

9 importance for these proceedings. Of course I don't need to know

10 precisely how long the gauntlet was. What I'm interested in is how much

11 distance did you have to cover before you reached the hangar?

12 A. Probably around 10 metres, something like that. I said probably.

13 I didn't really give you the exact timing.

14 Q. You said that you saw Slavko Dokmanovic standing in front in an

15 air force lieutenant-colonel's blue uniform. Did you think that he was an

16 officer, since you knew that he was the president of the municipal

17 assembly?

18 A. Excuse me. I said that he was -- did I say that he was wearing

19 the uniform of an air force soldier?

20 Q. You said that he was wearing a blue uniform?

21 A. Yes, but I didn't say anything about an air force soldier.

22 Q. Yes, you said he was wearing a blue uniform of a

23 lieutenant-colonel.

24 A. Yes. And he had a Tito-style cap on his head.

25 Q. Thank you very much. Yesterday you told us how they broke your

1 glasses when you descended from the bus, but you didn't tell us what

2 strength glasses you had, what was the prescription of your glasses at the

3 time?

4 A. Well, I didn't say that yesterday, but I can -- I have it here. I

5 can tell you now. Just a little bit of patience, please.

6 I don't think I have it with me. I didn't bring it with me. Ah,

7 here it is. I've found it. The right eye plus 3.00, and the other eye is

8 plus 2.75. Actually, that's both the right eye, and the left eye is

9 plus 3.25, and plus 3.00. And then you know that you actually to get the

10 right figure you add the two figures together. I always find it very

11 difficult to remember that. I mean it is my -- they are my glasses, but I

12 just never seem to remember the exact strength.

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry for interrupting my learned friend. I know

15 he asked the question for the prescription at the time, but I've seen

16 the -- the translation. And I wonder perhaps if he could just clarify if

17 that is actually the prescription then as opposed to now, so there is no

18 confusion.

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Of course. I'm going to do that, if

20 this is something that my learned friend would like.

21 Q. I was asking you about the prescription of your glasses at the

22 time. Did you give us the strength at the time?

23 A. No, this is the situation right now, and it always changes, it

24 varies. And I did feel a worsening, a difference recently, so I did go to

25 check my eyes again.

1 Q. Thank you. But can you tell us what your prescription for your

2 glasses was then in November, 1991, if you remember?

3 A. Well, I should know that, but I don't.

4 Q. At the time was your prescription plus or minus; do you remember?

5 A. I think it was the same as it is now, but only less.

6 Q. Do you remember telling the Canadian lieutenant-colonel that your

7 prescription at the time for one eye was 2.15 and the other one was 0 --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Oh, sorry, interpreter's correction, 3.95.

9 A. This is possible. I responded to all sorts of questions, so I

10 could have responded to that one as well. Perhaps I recall that at the

11 time. Well, they broke my glasses, I've already told you about that, and

12 I was without them for all of that time. When I returned to Croatia, I

13 went to have my eyes tested then, and then it was important to get the

14 right prescription.

15 Q. Thank you. Can you wear glasses only for certain types of

16 activity or all the time?

17 A. I wore them all the time. All the time. I don't know exactly

18 since when.

19 Q. Just to make this perfectly clear and to give you a chance to

20 remind yourself of what you said, I'll read out a portion of the

21 transcript. This is your interview with lieutenant-colonel --

22 A. It's a lady, you know.

23 Q. Yes, Kim Carter. The date is the 6th of March, 1993.

24 For the benefit of my learned friends, the page is 00596187.

25 The translator: "Can you tell us what your prescription is for

1 your glasses, how near-sighted are you and are you able to see without

2 your glasses?"

3 Your answer: "2.15 for what's up close and 3.95 for reading."

4 A. If that was my answer, then it should be correct, I assume.

5 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry, I've got a different reading on my -- my

6 translation. If it's page 6187, the English translation that I have

7 is 2.15, and then for looking at distance, and then 3.5 for reading.

8 That's what I have.

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes. You're quite right. That's what

10 I read out. At least I think so.

11 JUDGE PARKER: So in the two places where you mentioned 3.95 it

12 should be 3.5. Is that correct, Mr. Vasic?

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. It says 3.95. Oh,

14 right, my apologies. I've just looked at the English. In the Croatian

15 copy it says 3.95 and in the English it says 3.05.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I try to say something about

17 this?

18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Please go ahead.

20 A. As I just told you, my right eye now is 3.00, and 2.75. That's my

21 present prescription for my right eye.

22 For my left eye, it's 3.25 over plus 3. This was made on the 12th

23 of December, the new prescription, because I knew you'd ask and I didn't

24 really know it by heart, what the index was.

25 Q. Thank you very much. You've shared this with us, and I think this

1 is now beyond dispute.

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, am I expected to further

3 clarify this or may I just move on with my questions?

4 JUDGE PARKER: No, I bid you to move on, Mr. Vasic, reminding you

5 that you almost have spent three quarters of the time that the Prosecutor

6 spent examining on your own cross-examination. That gives your learned

7 colleagues very limited scope of time. So I think they would urge you,

8 along with the Chamber, to get to matters that are important. Thank you.

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Honour. I have

10 less than 10 questions to go; therefore, it shouldn't take too long.

11 Q. Sir, while you were inside the hangar you did not see any pieces

12 of machinery there? You said so to the lieutenant-colonel, the Canadian

13 lady, as well as at the Dokmanovic trial here in The Hague, didn't you?

14 A. Well, if I said so, then that must be right.

15 But there's something else I have to tell you. On our way into

16 the hangar, there were those two men leaning against the wall with their

17 legs spread and their hands pressed against the wall. On our way in we

18 saw this, and there were stacks of hay inside. That was another thing we

19 saw. There was plenty of that and that's where we sat down.

20 Q. Thank you. You said you were then taken outside the hangar. What

21 I want to know is, roughly speaking, what time it might have been, if you

22 can say?

23 A. There was still natural light, if that's what you mean, outside.

24 Q. Thank you. Can we please have ERN 00531231 shown, page 22? Just

25 briefly, please. This is the photograph of the hangar that my learned

1 friends showed you yesterday. And if the usher could please just hand the

2 witness a pen so that you can mark for us the exact spot where you were

3 standing when you had just been taken outside the hangar and before you

4 reached that vehicle that was later to drive you to Velepromet. Thank

5 you.

6 Should I repeat the number for you?

7 A. I'll describe that for you, if there is no way you can track it

8 down.

9 Q. Well, for the sake of saving some time, maybe that would be our

10 best shot at it. It would be simpler and quicker, too, if you could just

11 point it out for us. But meanwhile, please try to describe how far that

12 was from the hangar door and to which side?

13 A. Please try to be more specific.

14 Q. Where were you exactly when you were taken outside the hangar

15 waiting for the vehicle that eventually drove you to Velepromet to fetch

16 you, to pick you up?

17 A. You know that the hangar walls were made of tin and they had

18 sliding doors. Have you ever been at Ovcara yourself? Because that might

19 help me give you a better idea.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel's answer inaudible.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You know that when you approached

22 the hangar there's a rather large building there perhaps 200 metres long

23 and there was a well there.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Thank you very much. But here is the photograph and it might be

1 easier to do it like this.

2 Just zoom in slightly, please, the area where the hangar is.

3 Sir, is this large enough for you to mark the spot for us?

4 A. This is three different hangars you're showing me now, aren't

5 they?

6 Q. I mean the one that you were in.

7 Zoom in a little more, please. That might help the witness see

8 clearer.

9 Do you now recognise the hangar in which you were?

10 A. We were in the first one.

11 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I have a hard copy. I don't know if that

12 will help in any way.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore.

14 MR. MOORE: Certainly my picture is very poor, as normal.

15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Sir, is this photograph clear enough for you?

17 A. There are other hangars that I can see. Right behind there is the

18 oblong one partly obscured by trees and three other ones.

19 Q. Thank you very much. But do you recognise the one in which you

20 were?

21 A. That should be the one that is in front of those other two, the

22 one to the right. Because this is where the large door is. There's one

23 window to the right, and then several windows on the other side. Then

24 there's a tree and the exit.

25 Q. Can you please mark the spot where you were standing once you were

1 outside the hangar waiting for that vehicle to take you to Velepromet, if

2 you could use a cross, please, or --

3 A. A little cross right here. [Marks].

4 Q. This is a letter A, right? So that was the spot where you came

5 out and waited for the vehicle. You remained in that spot until the

6 vehicle arrived?

7 A. Yes, we never went far from this spot. We were there all the time

8 and we were speaking to those TO people that we knew and also to the man

9 who eventually saved my life.

10 Q. Thank you very much.

11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek that this be

12 admitted into evidence.

13 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit 267.

15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

16 Q. Mr. Cakalic, you said yesterday that you left Ovcara at dusk. Do

17 you remember that on the 6th of March, 1993 you stated to the Canadian

18 lieutenant-colonel that it was passed 6.00 p.m. when you left Ovcara, you

19 couldn't say exactly, but it was already dark. That's what you said?

20 A. Yes. But even at half past 5.00 in the afternoon it's already

21 dark that time of the year. But if that's what it says, then I must have

22 said it and I stand by that.

23 I have warned you about this already, please bear this in mind.

24 We talking about the time-line, I tried to be not very specific because I

25 simply can't say. I usually say it was around this time or around that

1 time, and I see that you are just holding me to it all the time, which

2 shouldn't be the case.

3 Q. Yes, Mr. Cakalic, that's precisely what I said. I quoted you as

4 saying that you couldn't say exactly, but I'll just read out the relevant

5 portion to see what exactly it was hat you said.

6 The translator: "Can you remember, at least in very rough terms,

7 what the time was when you and the other six men left Ovcara?"

8 My apologies. For my learned friends, this is 00596178 and

9 00596179.

10 And your answer was: "Sometime past 6.00. I can't say exactly.

11 It was dark already."

12 A. If that's what I said.

13 Q. Thank you very much. Do you remember how long it took you to get

14 from Ovcara to Velepromet, roughly speaking of course?

15 A. The distance must be five or six kilometres. Half an hour at the

16 very most. I'm doing this deliberately and this is just a speculation or

17 an estimate. And may that be recorded, please. It's an estimate on my

18 part, nothing more.

19 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry to interrupt again. The translation that I

20 have is different from the translation that's coming across on the

21 LiveNote. What I have is: "It could have been after 6.00 p.m., but I

22 can't tell you precisely."

23 And that's the translation that I have.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that's precisely what I

25 said to the witness.

1 Q. In the Croatian language, which I suppose was the original

2 language of your statement, and the language you used in the interview,

3 the substance is the same. "Sometime past 6.00. I can't say exactly. It

4 was dark already."

5 I don't see there's really that much difference from what my

6 learned friend is suggesting.

7 Thank you. When you reached Velepromet you said that there was a

8 person there whom you knew well, because he took some exams with you. He

9 was one of the persons in charge of Velepromet and he did not -- was he in

10 charge of Velepromet when you came there?

11 A. We were brought to Velepromet under escort. There were armed

12 soldiers escorting us, and they were to leave us there. There was this

13 one lad who was on duty who said, "I'll call the commander now."

14 It was then that I saw him. I think he was a sales assistant

15 somewhere in Negoslavci and he had taken one of his exams with me. But

16 that's got nothing to do with this. I'm trying to say something else.

17 Those soldiers who had brought us, not the one who was driving,

18 said this: "Here you have the worst criminals from Vukovar and we are

19 turning them over to you. You keep watchful eye on these. If we're not

20 here by 7.00 tomorrow morning, you have to kill them."

21 Q. You said that yesterday, but what I want to know is this person

22 who came and who was supposed to decide whether they will take you in or

23 not, this person's last name, can it possibly be Bingulac? Just wanted to

24 check if you knew that.

25 A. Yes, that's right.

1 Q. Thank you. Throughout your stay in Sremska Mitrovica, were you at

2 any point questioned by anyone from the Eastern Slavonia and Srem

3 government?

4 A. You're skipping a huge chunk of my story there.

5 Q. Yes, my other friends and other Defence teams will be asking you

6 about that.

7 A. Yes. I was interviewed, and I was met by Hadzic in

8 Sremska Mitrovica. It was a Saturday, and there were no JNA officers

9 around at that time, which is an important point.

10 Q. Did you meet anyone else from the government from the Eastern

11 Slavonia and Srem government there?

12 A. Yes, Borislavic. He kept saying it's not true that I saw him, but

13 I did. He was a neighbour of mine.

14 Q. Tell me something else, sir. In Sremska Mitrovica were you

15 questioned by a security officer, perhaps someone by the name of Bogdan

16 Vujic, also known as Colonel Branko? It was a code-name that he was using

17 at the time.

18 A. Colonel Branko, Colonel Branko. Yes, there was a man called

19 Colonel Branko who questioned me at least about 10 times. I can tell you

20 what he looked like, but I'm not sure if that's the name. Quite tall, a

21 colonel by rank. He had greying, wavy hair. And he was quite an all

22 right person to work with.

23 Q. In late February 1991, you were exchanged for a JNA colonel,

24 weren't you?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Thank you very much. To wrap up my cross-examination, I would

2 like to play you a brief clip. The 65 ter number is video 31 V0001260.

3 [Videotape played]

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I think that we didn't freeze the

5 frame in the best possible place. Can we try again, please? What I'm

6 interested in is this person on the right-hand side.

7 Q. Do you recognise this person on the right side?

8 A. Slavko Dokmanovic.

9 Q. The Defence claims that this was taped on the 20th of November,

10 1991. Do you still abide by your statement that he was at Ovcara in a

11 blue uniform with lieutenant-colonel insignia?

12 A. Also on the day that I mentioned before that was when we were

13 beaten severely.

14 Q. Mr. Cakalic, thank you very much for all your answers.

15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like this to be

16 tendered into evidence.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Before that, Mr. Cakalic, you said that Dokmanovic

18 was on the right side. Do you mean the man who is in the reddish or brown

19 jacket or the man with the moustache who is shorter, to the right of him?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Actually, he is on his left side,

21 but on the right side as I am looking at the image. Dokmanovic is the

22 person with the moustache. He looked exactly like that. I knew him.

23 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 268.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Vasic.

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for your

2 help.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic, I'm sorry, I diverted my mind for a

4 moment. Now this tape that has been played, that's not yet an exhibit?

5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I would like to have

6 it tendered into evidence. Actually, just this segment of the tape number

7 V0001260, and the length of the segment is seven seconds. And you can see

8 Slavko Dokmanovic giving an interview on this segment.

9 JUDGE PARKER: I would propose that we receive the whole of the

10 tape as marked for identification, Mr. Vasic. And we have the clip, the

11 one still, as a photograph, as Exhibit 268. So marked for identification

12 will be 269, the whole video. That should be enough for your purposes,

13 should it not?

14 MR. MOORE: Might I respectfully inquire, while it's clearly a

15 65 ter document, what is the purpose of the document? I don't dispute the

16 document, but is it being tendered to suggest that Dokmanovic was

17 therefore not at Ovcara? My learned friend could perhaps clarify that

18 issue.

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. With all due

20 respect for my learned friend, I think that the purpose of this exhibit is

21 to show that Dokmanovic, on the 20th of November, in this footage, was

22 dressed differently than the description given by the witness of how he

23 was dressed at Ovcara.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Is there anything about date that's material to it,

25 or place?

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] The date is the 20th of November,

2 1991. That's the date that the witness is talking about. The time is

3 1500 hours and 27 minutes on that day.

4 JUDGE PARKER: And the place?

5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] The place is the centre of Vukovar.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, probably he returned from

7 Ovcara and came to the centre, but I claimed that that was him. I

8 identified Dokmanovic, but I did not identify the place where he was. I

9 would like that to be recorded as well.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Vasic.

11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic.

13 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Cross-examination by Mr. Borovic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon. I am Borivoje Borovic, Defence

16 counsel.

17 You provided a large number of statements. You have already told

18 my learned friend that, so if anything is in dispute, we can always check

19 whether what I am presenting to you is correct.

20 The Centre for Human Rights in Zagreb, you gave a statement and

21 you confirmed that. My question is: Who did you give that statement to?

22 Who questioned you?

23 A. It was the medical centre for human rights. I'm talking about

24 Ms. Kim Carter.

25 Q. You have to respond yourself. It was on the 18th of March, 1992,

1 and it was the centre for human rights in Zagreb?

2 A. If that's how I wrote it down, then that's what it is. But I

3 don't remember whether -- where that centre is in Zagreb.

4 Q. Does that mean you didn't give that statement?

5 A. No, it does not. It just means that I don't know where the centre

6 is.

7 Q. Do you know that in some centre, it doesn't matter now what it's

8 called, you provided a statement in Zagreb that year, and do you remember

9 who you gave the statement to?

10 A. I gave a lot of statements.

11 Q. Very well.

12 A. I probably cannot remember all the places where I provided

13 statements.

14 Q. Very well. Do you know who the barracks commander in Vukovar was

15 when you were living in Vukovar?

16 A. I would see two -- two lieutenants when I was in Vukovar, but I

17 don't know exactly who do you mean.

18 Q. When you were at Ovcara, do you know who the commander of the

19 Vukovar barracks was?

20 A. No, I don't.

21 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that no barracks commander from Vukovar

22 mistreated you when you were at Ovcara? Is that what that means, since

23 you don't know who it was?

24 A. No, I don't.

25 Q. Does that mean that you don't know?

1 A. I don't know who the commander of the barracks was, perhaps I used

2 to know that at one point, but please understand that this was a very

3 difficult period. You had to accept or reject all of that.

4 Q. Very well. So do we agree that you don't know whether you were --

5 you don't know if were you beaten by the commander of the Vukovar barracks

6 at Ovcara?

7 A. No, I don't.

8 Q. Yesterday you were shown a statement which is entitled, "What my

9 experience of the fall of Vukovar is," "how I experienced the fall of

10 Vukovar." You agree that you provided you that statement?

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please pause between question

12 and answer.

13 A. I think I provided the statement to a journalist. I think I gave

14 it to a journalist.

15 Q. All right. Thank you very much. You were also reminded of a note

16 which you say you didn't sign. You said that you gave that statement, and

17 in that note dated the 15th of May, 1992, drafted in the Vukovar police

18 station, on page 1 of the B/C/S version, and also of the English version

19 it says that as a sanitary inspector you went to inspect the kitchens in

20 the Dunav Hotel and also in the city restaurant where food was prepared

21 for the ZNGs and the MUP?

22 A. I said for the Croatian army.

23 Q. Very well. Was this in the Dunav Hotel and also in the city

24 restaurant?

25 A. At the Dunav Hotel food was prepared for the police.

1 Q. And the city restaurant?

2 A. For the soldiers, for the army.

3 Q. Thank you. You would go to inspect the preparation of the food at

4 the Dunav Hotel and in the city restaurant?

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. And in the Dunav Hotel, were there any people from outside of

7 Vukovar there?

8 A. I don't know that.

9 Q. All right. Very well. My learned friend, Mr. Vasic, asked you a

10 little bit about that, about how the ZNG blockaded the barracks, that the

11 barracks was surrendering, that they had even exhibited the white flag.

12 You stated this in the Milosevic case on page 24537. You also said that

13 an agreement was reached for the barracks to surrender, but an order had

14 arrived from Belgrade that they shouldn't surrender. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes, these were the stories going around in Vukovar.

16 Q. Thank you. Can you please explain to us what was the reason for

17 the surrender of the barracks and to whom was it supposed to surrender?

18 A. You were probably aware that at the time a large number of

19 barracks were surrendering en masse in Croatia from Varazdin all the way

20 to the south. So it was logical for that particular barracks as the last

21 one in Croatia to surrender.

22 Q. Thank you. And to whom was it supposed to surrender then?

23 A. To the Croatian army. To the citizens of the town of Vukovar and

24 to the Croatian army.

25 Q. Thank you. In November 1991, was there a regular Croatian army or

1 was this a paramilitary force called the National Guards Corps?

2 A. It was called the National Guards Corps which then became the

3 regular Croatian army.

4 Q. Which year was that?

5 A. As far as I'm concerned, that was always the Croatian army.

6 Q. I'm asking you officially.

7 A. Well, I don't know which year. I don't know which year that was.

8 Perhaps in 1962 or 1963, or perhaps at the time that I was in the

9 detention camp or centre.

10 Q. Which year were you in the Detention Centre?

11 A. Well, I think that you know that. It was in 1991.

12 Q. Which month?

13 A. I arrived in November and then I left in January. So I came to

14 Zagreb on my birthday, on the 5th of January.

15 Q. Very well. So it is your opinion that the Croatian army was

16 established in 1963 or in late November or early December 1991? Is that

17 correct?

18 A. In any case that was the Croatian army, regardless of its name.

19 Q. And regardless of whether it was a regular army?

20 A. Well, it was regular, but it was a volunteer force as well.

21 Q. Thank you very much. Doesn't it sound a little bit illogical for

22 you that a regular army would also be a volunteer army? In order for an

23 entity to be regular in terms of military duty, then there is an

24 obligation or a duty to be a member of that regular army and not to sign

25 up on a volunteer basis?

1 A. We all signed up voluntarily. Nobody ever in Vukovar was forced

2 to join the Croatian army. I'm talking about Vukovar. I'm not talking

3 about the whole of Croatia, sir.

4 Q. Very well. I think it is quite clear what you are asserting and

5 what I am driving at.

6 At the district court in Zagreb on the 26th of April, 2004 you

7 gave a statement on the events of Vukovar, and you stated this yesterday.

8 If you wish, I can show you this statement. On page 4 of the statement,

9 paragraph 5, you said that the Croatian army comprised the following

10 formations: Volunteers, MUP members, ZNG members, HOS members, civilian

11 protection members, Croatian units, Croatian defenders, members of the

12 HVO, but you think that there were very few of those, I think that that's

13 what you said.

14 A. So what is strange about what I said?

15 Q. My question is: Is everything that I read out to you and that you

16 stated at the time correct?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. In the Belgrade Ovcara case you stated that you were a retired

19 officer of the Croatian army?

20 A. Yes, that is correct, but I resolved my status quite late.

21 Q. What rank did you receive in the army?

22 A. Captain first class.

23 Q. So now you are a retired captain of the Croatian army?

24 A. No, no, I'm not a captain. I am not a captain, "kapetan," but I

25 am a "satnik." Can you please tell me the difference? One is an apple

1 and the other is an apple.

2 Q. So you gave me an integral answer in the Serbo-Croatian language.

3 A. Well, you can take it however you like. We understand each other

4 well, don't we?

5 Q. You responded to my learned friend Mr. Vasic's question that there

6 were many volunteers from throughout Croatia?

7 A. Well, that's a relative term. There were volunteers from many

8 parts of Croatia.

9 Q. Do you know from which towns they came? Would you be kind enough

10 to repeat those towns?

11 A. They came from Zagreb, Sisak, Slavonski Brod, Varazdin, Cakovec.

12 Those were mostly -- that's where most of the men that I communicated or

13 had contacts with came from. Maybe there were some other places too.

14 Q. Do you know in which period they arrived at Vukovar, because you

15 were in Vukovar throughout that whole period. Is that correct?

16 A. Dear, sir, if I were to write a diary, then I could reply

17 precisely to each of your questions. However, I didn't keep a diary and

18 none of my co-fighters kept one. Perhaps some did keep some records, but

19 the things you are asking me about are difficult, so I have to speculate.

20 Q. Let's take it like this, Mr. Cakalic: When was the first time

21 that you saw volunteers from outside of Vukovar arriving at Vukovar? What

22 month was it?

23 A. Well, let's say that -- well, I can't tell you exactly, but it was

24 probably already September. I can't tell you exactly.

25 MR. MOORE: I object --

1 JUDGE PARKER: Sorry, Mr. Moore.

2 MR. MOORE: That's all right.

3 JUDGE PARKER: One of those, anyway.

4 MR. MOORE: Obviously not being a B/C/S speaker, one waits for the

5 translation, but the nature of the cross-examination is the witness is not

6 being allowed to complete his answers, and there is a dialogue going on

7 which does not allow for correct interpretation or indeed the witness to

8 have a chance to answer. I merely ask my learned friend to allow the

9 witness to reply. I have no objection to him going along this line, but

10 the witness must not be bullied in this way.

11 JUDGE PARKER: I don't think it's a matter of bullying at all,

12 Mr. Moore. But I believe, Mr. Borovic, that your old enthusiasm is back,

13 and if you could just hold yourself back until the witness is finished

14 before you burst forth with the next question, it would make it easier for

15 the witness, the interpreters, the transcript, and even for the Chamber.

16 Thank you.

17 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I entirely agree with your remark,

18 Your Honour. This is not meant to bully the witness. It's my

19 modus operandi which I shall try to --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not afraid of you, if that's

21 what you want to know.

22 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] It appears that Mr. Moore is the

23 only one who is.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Interpretation remains a

25 technical impossibility unless speakers are heard one at a time.

1 JUDGE PARKER: You have heard then what I was about to say. The

2 importance is that the record reveals what it is that the two of you are

3 discussing. And to get little bits of it is not enough. Thank you.

4 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Fine.

5 Q. In September, at least that's what you seem to believe, you said

6 some volunteers started to arrive?

7 A. Perhaps even earlier, perhaps even earlier, I really can't say. I

8 know they started coming but I can't say when exactly. It's asking too

9 much even for me to specify the month.

10 Q. Thank you. So the first time you saw volunteers arriving, who

11 brought them there, how, and where exactly did they arrive? Is this

12 something you remember, sir?

13 A. They were arriving on buses or on foot wearing different kinds of

14 uniforms, many with no uniform whatsoever, wearing their civilian clothes.

15 I was wearing my civilian clothes all the time, just for you to know.

16 Q. Were most of them wearing military uniforms? If so, can you

17 please describe them?

18 A. You see what happened. When Dokmanovic was shown, he was in

19 civilian clothes, but when he came to Ovcara he was wearing a military

20 uniform. The soldiers arrived from Sisak were dressed like this, and

21 those who from Zagreb were dressed like that. I can't give out statements

22 like these. I myself didn't know for a long time who belonged to which

23 unit and who came from where.

24 Q. Can you please be so kind as to describe some of the volunteers'

25 uniforms, those who came to Vukovar. Can you tell us about that, please?

1 I'm not asking about civilian clothes. I'm asking about some of the

2 uniforms, some of the insignia. Did you see that at all?

3 A. As for the defenders, I think most of them were wearing civilian

4 clothes.

5 Q. Let's go back to the issue concerning the uniforms. I heard about

6 the civilians. Can you remember any uniforms at all, any insignia that

7 you saw the volunteers wearing?

8 A. Those were camouflage uniforms.

9 Q. What about the insignia?

10 A. I don't know. I really can't say. I can't answer that one.

11 Q. Do you know what type of weapons they had, they carried?

12 A. The same type of weapons carried by the JNA.

13 Q. Thank you. We spoke about water yesterday and water-related

14 problems. My question is: You as a sanitation inspector, do you know

15 about what sort of water was used for the barracks supplies? Was that

16 from the city's water system?

17 A. I had no access there.

18 Q. Yes, but do you know about it?

19 A. Their water came from the town's central water system,

20 water-supply system. My inspection rounds did not include the barracks

21 back in the former Yugoslavia. There was a special military team carrying

22 out inspections there.

23 Q. When you mention the barracks and about them wanting to surrender,

24 where were the positions of the ZNG people in relation to the barracks?

25 A. In relation to the barracks. Probably -- mind you, I'm saying

1 probably. They were expecting something or there was an agreement for the

2 barracks to surrender. Since a white flag had been hoisted, that probably

3 was an indication of their intention to surrender. Now which parts of the

4 Croatian army were there, I don't know.

5 Q. I asked you about trying to remember where the military positions

6 of the Croatian army were at the time in relation to the barracks. It was

7 supposed to surrender to someone, wasn't it?

8 A. I didn't know.

9 Q. You didn't know.

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get the witness's answer.

11 Q. Very well. Thank you. There is a statement that we defined as --

12 that we defined as the statement with the following heading: "How I

13 experienced the fall of Vukovar." You said on page 1, paragraph 3 of the

14 English, page 1, paragraph 3 that on the 18th of November at about 2200

15 hours your wife and you left your building and headed towards the

16 hospital. Further, you stated that those on duty did not allow you to

17 enter the hospital. Would you please be so kind as to say who were these

18 people on duty who refused to let you in? And who was standing at the

19 hospital entrance at the time you came? Police officers or ZNG men?

20 A. I know I did eventually get into the hospital. I wasn't looking

21 because the door was wide open. For the most part --

22 Q. Please be so kind, sir, I have to interrupt you. Is it true what

23 I read from your statement?

24 A. If I wrote that and signed that, then it must be true.

25 Q. Thank you. That's what the statement says, that some men who were

1 on duty refused to allow you into the hospital. My question is perfectly

2 simple. Who were these mean at the entrance who were checking who was

3 coming in or leaving the hospital?

4 A. I don't know their names, but I know what I told them, to call

5 Vukovic, Milicko.

6 Q. Who did you ask?

7 A. Somebody who was there at the door, because you couldn't get

8 further in.

9 Q. Thank you. Was this person wearing a uniform? Was this person a

10 police officer or a soldier of some kind?

11 A. I don't think that person was a soldier at all. I think it was a

12 civilian.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. I don't remember specifically. But then Milicko Vukovic came to

15 get me and he was a civilian.

16 Q. In your statement to The Hague Prosecutors, page 4, paragraph 2,

17 in English, page 4, paragraph 2, you stated you were already inside the

18 hospital, and you described what's happening before you were about to

19 leave. And you said: "I personally at the time did not see any other

20 soldiers of the so-called JNA or Chetniks inside the hospital."

21 Is it true that at the time there were no such persons there, the

22 persons you described in this way?

23 A. I stand by what I stated.

24 Q. Thank you. In your statement to the OTP, page 4, last paragraph,

25 page 4, paragraph 5 in English, you stated in relation to what happened on

1 the morning of the 20th of November, more specifically at 7.30 a.m. You

2 said you saw two JNA soldiers who then frisked you or searched you

3 outside, right?

4 A. Yes, outside.

5 Q. You said one of them was called Pero?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the other was a Muslim, right? That's what your statement

8 says.

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. Can you tell us how come you know this man called Pero? Who was

11 he?

12 A. The person wearing JNA uniform.

13 Q. How did you know him?

14 A. It's a bit of a long story, really. They called us to -- they

15 called on us to leave the hospital and to go to the courtyard outside.

16 Q. I'm not trying to interrupt you, but this is all very nice and

17 swell. However, we are running out of time. How come you know this man's

18 name was Pero?

19 A. This soldier Pero was the one who drove us from Vukovar to

20 Belgrade.

21 Q. Where did he come from?

22 A. Somewhere in Bosnia.

23 Q. Very well. How do you know that the other soldier was a Muslim?

24 A. He said so.

25 Q. Fine.

1 A. He probably said so. I didn't make it up, you know.

2 Q. Fine. Next question: How do you know that they followed you all

3 the way to Sremska Mitrovica?

4 A. I recognised them. I realised that those were the same men who

5 rounded us up at the Vukovar Hospital and was the same two persons who

6 drove us to Sremska Mitrovica. I know that for a fact. I even spoke to

7 them along the way.

8 Q. In your statement to the Canadian investigators back in 1993 - on

9 page 10, both English and B/C/S - you stated that you were mentally abused

10 at the Vukovar barracks, but you referred to no physical abuse whatsoever.

11 A. No, not in relation to myself. But on my bus --

12 Q. There was no physical mistreatment, was there?

13 A. I'm not so sure about Samardzic. He might have been slapped once

14 or twice. But I think only the soldiers were allowed on to the bus.

15 Q. So is this portion of your statement correct, where you say that

16 at the barracks you were, for the most part, mentally abused?

17 A. Yes, that's right. But not by the soldiers.

18 Q. Thank you very much. My learned friend, Mr. Vasic, asked you

19 several questions about this yesterday. I'll just expand on that a

20 little. It's also in relation to the statement you gave. Page 45,

21 page 44 and 45 of both the B/C/S version and the English statement. The

22 investigator asked you whether there were any people on the buses wearing

23 medical uniforms. And your answer was: "I advised many people back in

24 the barracks to take those off. Some decided to listen to me, and those

25 were the ones who fared better eventually."

1 Today in reply to a question by Mr. Vasic, you said: "I told them

2 to do that in order to protect themselves." Is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Would you be so kind as to explain to the Chamber why first of all

5 you saw it fit to advise them; and secondly what you mean by protecting

6 themselves?

7 A. If only they'd all listened to me. If only they'd all followed my

8 advice. When we came to Ovcara there were three or four of them wearing

9 white overcoats, medical uniform, the kind worn by doctors. You know what

10 I mean. One of them was Veliki Bojler, Samardzic.

11 Q. You said that yesterday; we know that.

12 A. He was wearing that sort of uniform, and there were others who

13 were. I tried to persuade them to take those off because they weren't who

14 they were pretending to be. Those uniforms belonged to someone else, and

15 they should put their own uniforms back on, otherwise something bad would

16 happen to them, I said.

17 Q. Mr. Cakalic, sir, we can agree that those people on the buses who

18 were wearing medical uniforms or overcoats, as you say, it makes no

19 difference, that those people tried to pass themselves off as medical

20 staff in order to avoid arrest or whatever it was that they were trying to

21 escape from?

22 A. Only they can tell. I didn't ask them. All I did was try to talk

23 them into discarding those uniforms.

24 Q. Was there a considerable number of people wearing those uniforms

25 on your bus?

1 A. Damjan Samardzic, I did see him. There may have been two or three

2 other people, but I can't say.

3 Q. Thank you very much. When you assembled outside the hospital, did

4 you see a rather large number of people getting onto the buses wearing

5 those white overcoats?

6 A. Yes. Those were the people who were supposed to go to Ovcara

7 together with me.

8 Q. Thank you. Yesterday while testifying in chief you said that

9 there were people on the buses. He asked what ethnicity and you said

10 Croats, right?

11 A. There was a person there who was not a Croat, I now remember.

12 Q. At this point in time -- you're still inside the hospital, before

13 you get on those buses. Inside the hospital were most of people there

14 Croats?

15 A. Look, sir, I didn't ask people about their ethnicity at the door

16 or inside the hospital.

17 Q. Thank you. Fair enough. Did you know all the people on your bus

18 or not?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Thank you. Would you then allow for the possibility that there

21 may have been quite a number of Serbs on that bus unbeknownst to you, just

22 because you didn't ask?

23 A. I there was one, I know that.

24 Q. Do you --

25 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry, how can a witness answer a question if he

1 doesn't know who they are? He can only say the ethnicity surely of the

2 people if he knows them. It's complete speculation.

3 JUDGE PARKER: The effective evidence of the witness, Mr. Moore

4 and Mr. Borovic, is that he knew -- identified people, he knew they were

5 Croats, he did not know the other people, he did not know their ethnicity.

6 I think that's where the witness is. That's the clear effect of the

7 evidence. No further questions are needed on that subject.

8 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I hope you won't hold

9 this against me, but the Prosecutor asked yesterday -- I'll try to be as

10 brief as possible. They asked who were the people getting on to those

11 buses, and the witness said they were Croats. The general impression was

12 that all the people who got on that bus were Croats. It's for the sake of

13 this Chamber and for the sake of my own defence case that I'm trying to

14 verify this fact.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Now you've shown that it can't be proved by this

16 witness. You've made your point, you've got there. So you have no need

17 to go any further. He can only speak about the ethnicity of those he

18 knows.

19 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Fine, Your Honour. Thank you.

20 Q. This is a very specific question. Were all the people on that bus

21 Croats or not?

22 A. There was a man named Kemal on my bus and he was not a Croat.

23 Q. What about all the others or the -- is it just that you don't

24 know, as simple as that?

25 A. I don't know.

1 Q. Thank you.

2 A. Can I add something, please?

3 Q. Please go ahead.

4 A. On another bus there was a man named Mitar Pucar, a Serb. He was

5 not allowed to leave the hangar or taken outside, but rather was killed

6 along with everybody else in there.

7 Q. Thank you very much. Mr. Cakalic, how long does it take to get

8 from the centre of Vukovar to Ovcara?

9 A. If I walked, it would take me about two and a half hours.

10 Q. What about if you drove?

11 A. Between 10 and 15 minutes. 15 tops.

12 Q. Thank you. You said 10 minutes from the barracks, between 10

13 and 15 to reach Ovcara, right?

14 A. Yes, but I did say that, but why. When I went to Ovcara, I took

15 the road to Belgrade, if you know what I mean. This was a different road,

16 the road to Negoslavci, and that appears to be a shorter route to get

17 there.

18 Q. Thank you. You mentioned a captain who searched you at Ovcara.

19 You provided a detailed description of this. You said he had four stars

20 on his epaulet and he had a large stomach, right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was he a captain first class?

23 A. I don't believe he was a captain at all. He was just one of those

24 people who put on an ill-fitting uniform and attached a random rank to his

25 shoulder strap or something like that.

1 Q. Fine.

2 A. But he did have the insignia corresponding to a captain, to the

3 rank of captain.

4 Q. Captain first class?

5 A. Yes, I think so.

6 Q. In the Ovcara case in Belgrade, page 33, and the English reference

7 is 31, the date is the 25th of October, 2004. I'll just read this to you.

8 The president of the Chamber asked you: "Were there people outside?" And

9 he means outside the hangar because we're talking about the hangar now.

10 Witness Cakalic: "Well, there were people. I don't know who they

11 were."

12 Presiding Judge: "No, no, it's fine. But now, according to your

13 assessment, that's all I'm asking, according to your own assessment, how

14 many people were there?"

15 Witness: "Well, I don't know. I can't say whether there were 10

16 or nine or eight of them. I can't say. Anyway, it was around that number

17 in the evening."

18 And then the presiding judge asks a very direct question: "Could

19 there have been over a hundred people maybe, 200, or perhaps 300?"

20 Witness - that's you answering: "No, no."

21 Is that true what you stated before the Belgrade chamber?

22 A. My answer is still the same.

23 Q. Therefore, there was the gauntlet. You've described that; I'm not

24 going into that now. And in addition to that, there was a small number of

25 people but not --

1 A. They were turning around in a circle or, rather, rotating. Some

2 were coming and some were leaving, but they were all coming there to watch

3 us.

4 Q. But certainly not a number as great as the one specified by the

5 presiding judge in Belgrade?

6 A. For as long as I was there, it was as I told you.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Have you drawn breath, Mr. Borovic?

9 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I'm trying to finish as quickly as

10 possible, Your Honours, just to allow Mr. Lukic sufficient time. I have

11 more questions, and you gave us three thirds of the entire time, and then

12 I'll just pass the floor to Mr. Lukic, but I do have some --

13 JUDGE PARKER: We're going to have to break because of the tape,

14 Mr. Borovic. And Mr. Lukic wants to get his breath back.

15 So we will resume at five minutes past 4.00.

16 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic.

19 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 Q. In your various statements you described your stay in

21 Sremska Mitrovica. You said that, among other things, you were questioned

22 on one day, on the 14th of December, 1991. And you were questioned by

23 Goran Hadzic. Is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And then the other person you said was called once Borivoje Jocic,

1 and the other time you said it was Borivoje Savic. So is it Jocic or

2 Savic?

3 A. It's Savic. I have to clarify something else.

4 Q. Please go ahead.

5 A. You registered some errors that I made, important ones.

6 Q. No, but you made very few mistakes. You seem to be -- to have

7 good concentration.

8 A. Well, you probably didn't read my statements carefully, because

9 there is a major mistake that runs through all of my statements. And

10 there is an error in four statements, and in the fifth statement that fact

11 was stated correctly.

12 Q. Can you tell us in what capacity did Goran Hadzic question you on

13 that occasion, and can you describe to the Trial Chamber who Goran Hadzic

14 was at that time?

15 A. Goran Hadzic didn't interview or question only me in

16 Sremska Mitrovica. He also interrogated some other citizens of Vukovar.

17 For example, Ljubo --

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the last name.

19 A. He was interested in knowing the living conditions in Vukovar, and

20 as regards my job, he was interested in that as well, and I told him that.

21 Q. All right. Thank you. Were you also questioned by the colonel

22 that we mentioned just a little bit ago?

23 A. I think that he was the commander of the camp. Yes. He did.

24 Will you be putting some more questions? In that case, I will refrain

25 from saying anything else other than that this colonel did interrogate me.

1 Q. Thank you. Goran Hadzic, accompanied by Borivoje Savic, did he

2 come during working days or did he come during the weekend or outside of

3 business hours?

4 A. It was mostly on Saturday and Sunday when the JNA officers had

5 days off.

6 Q. Thank you. Sremska Mitrovica is a town in Serbia; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did this area also include Baranja, Western Srem and Backa or not?

9 A. It was on the road to Belgrade.

10 Q. Did Goran Hadzic ever beat you while questioning you?

11 A. He slapped me twice as I was leaving.

12 Q. Thank you. Did a judge from Vukovar on any of those occasions

13 attend these interrogations?

14 A. Yes. He guarded the door. He was the judge of the Vukovar court

15 and he stood by the door while Savic and Hadzic interrogated people.

16 Q. And what was his name?

17 A. He died -- just give me a second to remember his name.

18 Q. Is it Branko Kovacevic?

19 A. Yes, that's right, Branko Kovacevic.

20 Q. Thank you. Can you explain to us how come you were interrogated

21 outside of business hours on weekends when there were no JNA officers?

22 A. The judge did not interrogate me.

23 Q. All right. Very well. So what is your explanation? Why were

24 they doing it only on non-business days? Were they doing something that

25 was permitted or impermissible?

1 A. I think that they either did something that was not permitted, or

2 what they did was pursuant to an agreement with people in

3 Sremska Mitrovica.

4 Q. You mean the jail officials?

5 A. No. I mean the officers who were there. You know that the

6 Yugoslav army officers were there.

7 Q. Thank you. When asked by my learned friends that there was a

8 Colonel Branko, do you think that there was an agreement with him?

9 A. I never knew this colonel's name. He never introduced himself,

10 but he did know my full name.

11 Q. All right. Thank you.

12 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have concluded my

13 cross-examination.

14 Mr. Cakalic, I hope that you found this entire process to be

15 decent.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. And my

17 suggestion to you is to look for the error that I have mentioned.

18 JUDGE PARKER: That can be your homework, Mr. Borovic.

19 Mr. Lukic.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps I will raise this issue again.

21 Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon, Mr. Cakalic. And

22 good afternoon to everybody else in the courtroom. Same to you,

23 Mr. Cakalic.

24 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] My name is Novak Lukic. I am counsel for

1 Mr. Sljivancanin, and I will putting questions to you now. We are always

2 the last to cross-examine witnesses, and I seem to be in the habit of

3 crossing out many questions put previously by my colleagues. I will try

4 not to repeat any of the questions you heard earlier, and I will do my

5 best to conclude this as soon as possible.

6 Right at the outset I will ask our assistant to show you a short

7 videotape. Please look at this video clip.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is Exhibit 118,

9 which we saw in the courtroom previously.

10 [Videotape played]

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Q. Mr. Cakalic, I will put three very simple questions to you and

13 then afterwards we will revisit this event.

14 First question: Have you ever seen this clip before?

15 A. I have.

16 Q. That's what I supposed. Can you tell me roughly how many times

17 you saw it in your life?

18 A. Once.

19 Q. Only once?

20 A. I saw him live only once.

21 Q. No, no, no, I'm not talking about my client. I'm talking about

22 this videoclip.

23 My question is: How many times so far -- this seems to be a

24 leading question indicating that you saw this a number of times. Can you

25 tell us how many times you saw this altogether?

1 A. I don't know. I never counted.

2 Q. May I suggest to you that this was shown on television at least

3 every year on the anniversary of the fall of Vukovar?

4 A. Most likely so, yes.

5 Q. Another question relating to this video clip. Do you remember

6 perhaps when you saw it for the first time? If you left prison in

7 February of 1992, can you tell us if you saw that clip that year again, or

8 for the first time?

9 A. First of all, I was in the sports hall for quite a long time.

10 There was no television there. Then for a while I lived at Sljeme. I

11 didn't watch television there either. Then I lived in Samobor, and I

12 still didn't have television there. After Samobor I went to Jelsa, and I

13 had a TV set there.

14 Q. Can you give us some indication of what year it was?

15 A. When I came to Jelsa, it was 1960 --

16 Q. You mean ninety --

17 A. Yes, in 1996.

18 Q. You were quite active in your contacts with the commission for the

19 missing persons and you attended negotiations in Budapest in 1992?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. During that period of time, when you were quite active and saw

22 Mrs. Bosanac, Professor Hebrang and so on?

23 A. I didn't see Professor Hebrang.

24 Q. All right. In that period of time, after your release from

25 captivity, did you see a photograph of my client somewhere?

1 A. Many times. I saw his photograph many times.

2 Q. I suppose that it dates back to Vukovar days?

3 A. Yes. Those days and later.

4 Q. Thank you. Now I will go back to your testimony in chronological

5 terms. I will be mostly interested in your stay at the hospital and also

6 in some aspects of the barracks and Ovcara.

7 You already said this to my colleagues, and I will cover this

8 briefly. First you were a volunteer, if I may call it that, within the

9 ZNG and later the Croatian army. We heard that later you were given a

10 rank as well. Based on what I heard yesterday from you, it seems that you

11 were also decorated -- no, that was the Red Cross. Were you ever

12 decorated by Croatian authorities?

13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's didn't hear the answer.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

15 Q. What I was able to see is that you never served a military service

16 within the JNA?

17 A. That's right. I didn't.

18 Q. Your previous answer was not recorded. You said that you were

19 never decorated by Croatian authorities?

20 A. Correct. I received nothing, not even a badge. I received a

21 commendation from the association of camp-mates. Let's leave it at that.

22 Q. Let us go back to your youth. I saw that you were exempted from

23 serving in the JNA due to the fact that you had been wounded in

24 World War II. You must have been a child there; is that right?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Is that the reason that you were exempted from serving JNA ever?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. Would you please wait for me to conclude with my question before

4 answering.

5 You said that during the events in Vukovar you were in your house

6 practically throughout the entire time until the 17th, or rather not in

7 your house, in your apartment where you lived with your wife. You were

8 there until the 17th of November and that sometime in the evening hours -

9 you may have said at around 2200 hours - you decided to go to the hospital

10 with your wife. Is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You worked at the Vukovar Hospital up until 1968; is that right?

13 A. I came in 1960 -- I worked there for 10 years.

14 Q. In one of your statements I saw that you worked at the hospital as

15 the head of the medical laboratory and transfusion department from 1958

16 to 1968. I found this in one of your statements.

17 A. Yes, that's correct. That's what it says.

18 Q. Your wife was never employed at the Vukovar Medical Centre; is

19 that right?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You covered this with my friend -- my learned friend Mr. Borovic,

22 and we'll also interested in this. Based on what you said, I gather it

23 wasn't easy to enter the hospital on the 17th in the evening and that via

24 contacts with your friends with whom you used to work, you were able to

25 enter the hospital and that after that you made it possible again through

1 your contacts for your wife to enter the hospital; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. That was on the evening on the 17th, late evening, after 2200

4 hours. At that point in time in the late evening hours, were there any

5 civilians in the hospital yard?

6 A. Yes, there were.

7 Q. Can you remember how many of them were there that evening in the

8 hospital yard, just roughly?

9 A. I can't give you a figure. But there were many of them.

10 Q. Since you remained in the hospital on the 18th and the 19th, did

11 you hear or did you see that in the course of these two days the civilians

12 from the yard entered the hospital on the first floor? Do you know

13 anything about it?

14 A. Yes. They entered the hospital premises. I was one of them.

15 Q. I'm referring to this large group of people. A figure of 1.000

16 or 1500 civilians were mentioned. Did they enter the hospital premises in

17 those two days?

18 A. I don't think they did. Only those who had been at the hospital

19 for a long time before that were there.

20 Q. I will ask you this specifically. In the course of the following

21 two days, if you ever left the X-ray department, did you see that there

22 were a large number of civilians in the hospital yard?

23 A. I never went outside until we were arrested.

24 Q. Did you see -- did you hear from somebody who was with you in the

25 X-ray department that civilians had entered the hospital?

1 A. I've already said that I saw civilians once I entered the

2 hospital -- or as I was entering the hospital. And I never left the X-ray

3 department. So I'm not saying that there were many civilians there.

4 Maybe somebody would have done it, but I'm not saying that.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we go into private session for a

6 moment, please?

7 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. From the point in time you arrived at the hospital, and you

5 mentioned this yesterday to Mr. Moore, so perhaps you can clarify a little

6 bit more, if you remember. In the course of that night from the 18th,

7 19th -- the 17th, the 18th and the 19th, did you hear any combat

8 operations, shelling, shooting in the vicinity of the hospital? Do you

9 recall anything like that?

10 A. I remember hearing shooting. As I was going to the hospital, I

11 did, yes. There was -- they were shooting when my wife and I were going

12 there. It was the middle of the night. You could hear the -- the sounds

13 of steps and somebody fired in our direction, not behind us, but in our

14 direction, and I explained the circumstances in which we went to the

15 hospital.

16 Q. And the next few days, the 18th and the 19th, did you hear any

17 combat operations during those nights?

18 A. No. We were in a room, it was the dark room, so from there it was

19 not possible to hear anything.

20 Q. In response to questions you mentioned your pre-war activities in

21 the headquarters of the Red Cross in Vukovar, and you mentioned Zeljka

22 Zgonjanin?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know if she made any lists of civilians, I'm talking about

25 civilians, regarding the evacuation of Vukovar? Do you know anything

1 about that?

2 A. I know that she was very active in finding blood donors for all

3 who came, even for one of your officers. He also received blood. Yes,

4 she was making lists of people from Vukovar who were not only at the

5 hospital but probably in other places.

6 Excuse me, allow me just to finish my sentence. Since she was --

7 since the secretary of the Vukovar Red Cross fled without letting me know,

8 I appointed Zeljka Zgonjanin town of Vukovar Red Cross secretary without

9 consulting the assembly, because it wasn't possible to consult the

10 assembly any longer.

11 Q. You said during the examination-in-chief yesterday that you had an

12 ID pass which was confiscated from you later at Velepromet and that you

13 wanted to identify yourself using that so that you could take part in the

14 negotiations.

15 My question is: At the time you were in the hospital, did you

16 know that negotiations were being conducted amongst the Zagreb side, the

17 hospital and the JNA?

18 A. Well, these were just children's tales. People were saying there

19 will be boats or ships from Hungary and we will be taken to Hungary, or we

20 will be allowed to go into unoccupied parts of Croatia. But all of these

21 were just -- this was just speculation.

22 Q. So you understood these just to be stories or tales?

23 A. Well, I understood them to be wishful thinking.

24 Q. Did you hear maybe that some sort of agreement was signed between

25 Mr. Hebrang and General Raseta of the evacuation of the sick and the

1 wounded?

2 A. I heard that Mr. Raseta -- and I can't remember if he was a

3 colonel or a general. Yes, he was a general. I heard that there was some

4 negotiations. I don't know if the negotiations were conducted with

5 Mr. Hebrang or someone else.

6 Q. All that I'm asking you is still while you were at the hospital.

7 So during those couple of days when you were at the hospital, did you hear

8 that lists where being compiled of the sick, wounded and the medical staff

9 there? Did you hear of any lists being made at the departments?

10 A. No. The first time I'm hearing it is now from you. Perhaps it

11 did happen, I don't know.

12 Q. Well, I just want to let you know that we heard testimony about

13 that here already. You came to the hospital as a civilian; is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes, I was always wearing civilian clothing. If I hadn't been

16 wearing civilian clothing, I wouldn't be here with you today.

17 Q. And now with this answer you're telling me that I shouldn't put

18 the next question to you, but I will put it to you anyway.

19 A. Go ahead.

20 Q. When the JNA arrived on the 20th in the morning and when you were

21 going towards the buses, did it occur to you to tell any of the JNA

22 soldiers there that you were a member of the ZNG, that you were a

23 volunteer who had taken part in some manner in the defence of the town?

24 Did it occur to you to say that to anyone?

25 A. No, I wasn't crazy to say that.

1 Q. Did you hear that on the 18th at Mitnica that Mitnica Battalion

2 surrendered? In any case, that it was over 185 members of the ZNG, they

3 said they were members of the ZNG, headed by Filip Karaula and they

4 arrived at Sremska Mitrovica? Are you aware of that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you know that when you were at the hospital at the time?

7 A. No.

8 Q. So let's conclude the following on the bases of what you said.

9 You came to the hospital as a civilian and you left the hospital as a

10 civilian on the 20th when you were told to go to the buses?

11 A. The whole time I was in civilian clothing.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like the usher to show the

14 witness Exhibit 67.

15 Q. You will now see the floor-plan of the hospital, which we used

16 during Dr. Njavro's testimony. To tell you the truth, this floor-plan is

17 quite unclear to me. If the same is in your case, we will perhaps look at

18 something else.

19 Could you please show us where Marin Vidic was? Which room was

20 Marin Vidic in? Now I'm talking about that time in the evening when you

21 came. Perhaps we can turn the floor-plan.

22 Mr. Cakalic, if this is too complicated for you, perhaps we'll try

23 with a photograph, except I'm not sure that that can be seen on the

24 photograph. But in any case, look at the floor-plan, and can you mark on

25 the floor-plan the room where Marin Vidic was on the 19th in the evening?

1 If it's too complicated, just please let us know.

2 A. I wasn't actually in that section of the building for a long time

3 before that. The X-ray department was on the left side, and his office or

4 room was entered directly. I remember entering it like that. We had a

5 conversation before the fall of Vukovar.

6 Q. Is that room in the -- on the ground floor?

7 A. It was in the basement.

8 Q. Was that the exit that was used when you were going out near the

9 emergency department?

10 A. Yes, that is correct.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now show the witness

12 photograph 00531264? I think that's also an exhibit. The photograph of

13 Vukovar Hospital. It's photograph number 9 from this set. No, not this

14 one. This one.

15 Q. Is it possible to see on this photograph Mr. Vidic's room, where

16 Mr. Vidic was when Sljivancanin came? Can you see that room on this

17 photograph?

18 MR. MOORE: Surely the witness should be told that, since these

19 photographs were taken in 1997, were they not, six years after the event?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, lots of changes had happened

21 since then. Thank you very much.

22 It's like this: It's possible that the passage goes this way or

23 that it goes that way. Vidic was in a room like this one, so directly

24 when you enter the corridor, you go straight and then you would get to his

25 room.

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Since it's quite clear to us in the courtroom where the plaster

3 room is, was that other room close to the plaster room; do you remember

4 that?

5 A. The X-ray was on the left side, that's where we were, and that

6 room was further towards the middle or the central part of the hospital.

7 Q. Very well. Let's continue. Now I'm asking you about this

8 encounter when Mr. Vidic was taken away. Yesterday during the questioning

9 by the Prosecutor you said that this was when Sljivancanin came, sometime

10 around midnight, between the 17th and the 18th.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, between the 18th and

12 the 19th.

13 Q. But in all your statements you say that this was the evening

14 before the evacuation, so according to you am I right that it was actually

15 on the night between the 19th and the 20th?

16 A. I always confused those two dates, but I think it was on the night

17 between the 18th and the 19th. I really couldn't swear by it, but I think

18 that that was on the night between the 18th and the 19th. Others tried to

19 convince me that it wasn't like that, that it was on the night of the 19th

20 and the 20th, but it actually doesn't substantially change anything.

21 Q. Well, let's leave the dates aside. Was that the night before you

22 were taken away, let's put it that way?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. Did you personally see Sljivancanin come to see Marin Vidic?

25 Where were you at the time?

1 A. I happened to be in that very corridor. We had stepped aside a

2 little bit not to be in the way. Mr. Sljivancanin came in his military

3 uniform, dressed very nicely, the way he usually behaved, he was very

4 charming, and he was accompanied by Bogdan Kuzmic.

5 Q. You already said that.

6 A. Shall I continue?

7 Q. Well, I'm going to just put questions to you. I'm just interested

8 in certain sections. I don't want to repeat myself.

9 So you said that he came in the evening, it was quite late,

10 sometime between 11.00 and 12.00?

11 A. I said it was around midnight.

12 Q. You weren't able to hear their conversation. You stayed outside.

13 After that they came out and Vidic was taken away. Was he taken away by

14 Sljivancanin, did you see that?

15 A. He was walking either in front or behind. There was another

16 person there, Bogdan Kuzmic. He was -- Sljivancanin was accompanied by

17 Bogdan Kuzmic, so they took Marin Vidic. I didn't see him until

18 Sremska Mitrovica, when I was delousing.

19 Q. Before I continue with my question, I'm going to do something that

20 the Prosecutor likes the best. I'm going to state my client's

21 position. My client states, and in that sense I would like you to think

22 before you give an answer. I know what you said during the

23 examination-in-chief. So he claims that he came to the office of Marin

24 Vidic sometime in the afternoon, at around 1600 hours, 1530 to 1600 hours.

25 That at the time he was together with Nicholas Borsinger, that they were

1 sitting together. Borsinger is a representative of the International

2 Red Cross. They were sitting down and talking to Vidic and then that they

3 left. And that Vidic was taken to Negoslavci at around 2000 hours.

4 Before you give me an answer, I'm going to tell you two more

5 things. That's why I would like you to think carefully. We have

6 statements from certain Prosecution witnesses who are going to testify

7 here, specifically captain first class who claims or asserts that at 2000

8 hours he escorted Vidic away. I'm going to tell you something else also.

9 A. That could be so. But --

10 Q. But just one moment. I would like to say one more thing. I don't

11 want to cause any confusion.

12 A. Well, we already have a confusion here.

13 Q. Then I am going to tell you one more thing, because it's not my

14 goal to confuse you. I'm going to say one more thing.

15 Mr. Vidic asserts that he was taken away at 2000 hours by this

16 captain and not by Sljivancanin, because Sljivancanin had been to see him

17 at around 1600 hours.

18 A. That is something that I don't know, who saw whom at what time,

19 because we were not permitted to monitor that. All I know is that I

20 remember when Major Sljivancanin entered Vidic's room, the major was

21 accompanied by Bogdan Kuzmic. Bogdan remained outside in front of the

22 door. I don't know what Sljivancanin talked about and how long they

23 talked about, but he came out with Vidic, and Vidic was taken away. Now

24 you say it was Negoslavci. I'm hearing of that for the first time, that

25 he was taken to Negoslavci.

1 Q. You say that was late at night, right?

2 A. Yes, I'm saying that, just because Dr. Bosanac left the same

3 night. And sometime in the morning at about 3.00 a.m., that's what I

4 heard at least, she returned to the hospital. I think that was it.

5 Q. I'm not trying to confuse you, so I will not be putting to you

6 what Vesna Bosanac herself claims, but let's go back to something you said

7 in answer to my learned friend from the OTP yesterday. Was he wearing a

8 JNA uniform?

9 A. Who are you talking about?

10 Q. Sljivancanin. Moustache, at first you thought he was 180

11 centimetres tall, later you thought even taller, he was wearing a Tito

12 cap. So these are the details that remain etched in your memory. And he

13 was a major?

14 A. I keep saying was, was. I keep talking in the past. He was a

15 major at the time. You can ask him if he really was.

16 Q. Did you hear at the time that he was a major? Did you see that he

17 was a major? I'm talking about then, not what you saw later.

18 A. I saw that he was a major by rank. He had a single star down the

19 middle.

20 Q. While testifying in chief yesterday, you were asked if you had

21 heard of him at the time, and you said on page 11 of yesterday's

22 transcript that all of Vukovar had heard about him. That was my

23 understanding at least. So you heard his name mentioned, right?

24 A. Yes, and I'd seen him on TV too.

25 Q. Even before you saw him in person, right?

1 A. Yes. And I saw him when he was standing outside the hospital,

2 perhaps even -- he was stamping his foot on the ground saying, "This is

3 Serbian soil, this is Serbian soil." Well, dear, sir, I have news for

4 you. It's not.

5 Q. Was he perhaps not saying, "This is my country, this is my

6 country"?

7 A. What I am telling you is the way I remember it.

8 Q. And you saw that on TV just before you saw him in Marin Vidic,

9 Bili's, office, right?

10 A. Yes. I do remember that very clearly, you know, sir.

11 Q. Thank you. I will go back to some of the statements that you

12 made, only those you actually signed.

13 [In English] Mr. Usher.

14 [Interpretation] Let's briefly go back to one of your statements.

15 I think that's the first one, VU hospital 46. I hope my learned friends

16 have a copy of this statement in front of them. This is page 1; it's

17 dated the 18th of March, 1992.

18 You confirmed that you actually hand wrote this statement. I will

19 be reading something on page 1, paragraph 3, it's the middle paragraph,

20 last sentence: "In addition to this, I noticed a major enter Marin Vidic,

21 Bili's, room and take him away. He was being escorted by Bogdan Kuzmic,

22 who formerly used to work as porter at the hospital."

23 You don't mention the name of my client here, although you knew of

24 him at the time, right?

25 A. Yes. If I can explain, please.

1 Q. Please go ahead.

2 A. All of this is true. About half an hour or an hour before Marin

3 Vidic was arrested, I was in his room. I asked him, "Marin, is there

4 anything I can do for you?"

5 And he said, "No, they'll be coming for me soon."

6 Q. No doubt about that but I'm putting it to you that he was arrested

7 at 8.00 and that he was arrested by Captain First Class Paunovic, that's

8 my theory, and that Major Sljivancanin had been to see him at 1600 hours.

9 All I'm asking you now is whether you mentioned his name in this

10 statement or not, and you said you didn't. You have just confirmed that

11 for me. His name is not mentioned anywhere in the statement?

12 A. Whose name?

13 Q. Sljivancanin?

14 A. It is. Of course it is.

15 Q. Can you find that spot for me? Can you find that reference?

16 A. No, I'm saying it's not mentioned.

17 Q. Oh, so then we agree.

18 Let's move on in that case. What about that other statement, "How

19 I experienced the fall of Vukovar." Page 2, please. Last

20 paragraph. "After about 10 minutes I realised that a major entered his

21 room who then took him away."

22 Again, you failed to mention the name of that major, right?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. Can we please briefly go into -- or, rather, not go into private

25 session and then I'll be asking you a question about this later on.

1 At any rate, it is still your theory that the man who came and

2 took Marin Vidic away was Veselin Sljivancanin?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. This was on the 19th in the evening hours?

5 A. Yes, it was at around midnight.

6 Q. Thank you. Let's move on to something else now.

7 MR. MOORE: In fairness to the witness, you did not, I would

8 submit, my learned friend unintentionally did not refer to the person who

9 was accompanying the major. That is something certainly I don't have it

10 on my transcript. If it's going to be put, and it's going to be suggested

11 that there are inconsistencies, the Court have got to have an opportunity

12 of checking whether those inconsistencies are correct. And there is

13 reference to Kuzmic at that same time. Certainly in my English

14 translation there is.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It is beyond dispute that the witness

16 does mention Kuzmic. What I have tried to show now is that in the

17 statements he provided back in 1992 and later ones, we don't know the date

18 of that other statement, but it's obviously after Vukovar. The witness

19 never mentions my client by name. As for Kuzmic, I can hardly dispute

20 that.

21 MR. MOORE: No. But all I'm saying is, quite simply, if there is

22 going to be an inconsistency suggestion, it has to be looked at in

23 context. I accept entirely what my learned friend says, that

24 Sljivancanin's name is not mentioned, but the text or the context has to

25 be looked at, and there is reference to Kuzmic. My learned friend didn't

1 read that out. That's all I'm objecting to.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore.

3 Mr. Cakalic, did you want to say something?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. If I didn't mention Major

5 Sljivancanin's name, it was for a reason. I knew it full well that

6 Vukovar would fall. We all did. And none of us wanted to mention anybody

7 else. I think it should be easy for you to understand this. There were

8 reasons for us doing so, and you have a thought and try to see if you can

9 work out the reasons.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Can you go back to those two statements, just tell me yes or no,

12 please. Do you mention any other JNA officers in those statements? Just

13 if you do or if you don't. Don't mention their names, please.

14 A. This is what I am saying here.

15 Q. Please, no names. The question is: Did you mention any JNA

16 officers there or not? No names, please?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Thank you. Thank you. I won't be pressing you on this. You

19 stand by your previous statement that it was Sljivancanin.

20 Another question in relation to my client's arrival when he came

21 to Mr. Vidic's office. If, as you say, you saw him at the time, you said

22 in a statement to the OTP, and you said yesterday you believed he was

23 about 180 centimetres tall. My question to you now is without wishing to

24 create further confusion, but is it possible that another officer with a

25 moustache arrived at the time who was 180 centimetres tall and took Marin

1 Vidic, Bili, away? Could you rule out that possibility?

2 A. Yes. I definitely rule out that possibility.

3 Q. That's all for this topic.

4 Let's move on now to the next morning, the morning of the 20th.

5 My learned friend Mr. Moore was quite quick when dealing with this

6 yesterday. Do you remember whether in the morning of the 20th Dr. Matos

7 appeared, telling you that all the civilians were to walk down the

8 corridor and leave the hospital?

9 A. Yes. That had previously been ordered by Dr. Vesna Bosanac.

10 Q. Did you see Dr. Bosanac in the corridor that morning?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So he just conveyed her words to you?

13 A. Yes. He and -- there was another man with him. I didn't know who

14 that man was. It was said that all those who were inside the building and

15 were not employees of the hospital should leave. And we complied.

16 Q. We heard about you being searched outside the emergency ward.

17 Many witnesses have testified to that. During the search, was

18 Mr. Guncevic near you; if so, how far from you was he?

19 A. When we were outside the hospital, you mean?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. He was on the bus. How far, I don't know. They were cursing us,

22 cursing our mothers and our fathers, those two soldiers who were given the

23 task of getting us all in a line and taking us away.

24 Q. But during the frisking itself, you don't know how far from you he

25 was standing at this in time point?

1 A. I don't know. He may have been standing next to me, but I really

2 don't know.

3 Q. I'm not pressing the point at all. But do you remember that as

4 you were being searched you were also searched for sharp implements but

5 none of your personal belongings were taken away? I mean money,

6 documents, watches, that sort of thing? The searching in the corridor

7 outside.

8 A. Yes, there was a man called Pero. There was another one -- there

9 was another man with him whose name I don't remember. All the dangerous

10 implements in our pockets were to be pulled out and placed on the ground

11 in front of us. And we obliged.

12 Q. Your money wasn't taken, your documents weren't taken from you?

13 A. No, those things weren't taken away. At least my weren't. But I

14 think the same applies to all the rest.

15 Q. Can you now please have a look at your statement to the OTP? This

16 is page 6. The English reference is page 4. Page 6, last paragraph.

17 Would you please just follow, sir?

18 A. The -- wooden club, is that what you mean?

19 Q. No, page 6. Do you have the statement you gave to the OTP?

20 A. "How I experienced the fall of Vukovar," this is mine. 537459.

21 Q. I have a different copy of the statement, but I'm sure we can find

22 our way around this.

23 The passage, the paragraph begins with: "At 9.30 or 10.00 a.m."

24 It should be page 4 or page 5. We obviously have different copies of the

25 same statement.

1 A. So we're talking about 537463, right?

2 Q. I can't confirm that. I gave you a copy that's marked differently

3 from mine, but it's the same statement. The paragraph begins with the

4 following words: "At 9.30 or 10.00 a.m." This is page 6 in my copy.

5 It's about what's going on at the hospital before you leave and go to the

6 barracks.

7 A. "At 9.30 or 10.00 a.m."?

8 Q. Yes. I'll read the next paragraph to you, it says that: "At 9.30

9 or 10.00 a.m." -- I'll read it slowly. "At 9.30 or 10.00 a.m. those two

10 soldiers told us to get on the buses parked outside the auxiliary entrance

11 to the hospital on Gunduliceva Street. When I reached the place where the

12 buses were parked, I saw five buses, and we were told to get on the buses.

13 There was no special system to decide who would be getting on which bus.

14 As soon as one bus was full, they would send people on to the next bus.

15 And no records were kept as to who was getting on the buses."

16 Did I read this correctly?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you stand by this, because you haven't actually testified to

19 this now?

20 A. Yes, I do stand by it. What I wrote here is my account of what

21 happened.

22 Q. Thank you. Let's move on, please. You testified in chief

23 yesterday mentioning a number of names of people who you remembered were

24 with you on the bus, Berghofer, Guncevic, Damjan Samardzic. First of all,

25 do you know a man called Professor Licina, and do you remember if this man

1 was on your bus?

2 A. I don't remember him as being on my bus.

3 Q. In that case we might as well move on.

4 What about the name of Rudolf Vilhelm? Does that ring a bell?

5 Was he on the bus with you?

6 A. I know him. He was a tall lad. I don't know. I don't know.

7 Q. Do you remember where exactly you were seated inside the bus?

8 Maybe I'm asking too much. Was it down the middle of the bus?

9 A. It was probably towards the rear of the bus.

10 Q. Left or right, because there are seats on either side of the bus?

11 A. Sir, what did you have for lunch on that particular date? Yes, I

12 was seated on that bus and I was seated on the left-hand side.

13 Q. There you go. You probably know why I'm asking.

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. I will be pursuing that through my next questions. Very well. A

16 couple more questions relating to the situation before you left.

17 Can you give us the approximate time when you all got on to the

18 bus and before the buses left from Gunduliceva, how long did you spend in

19 the bus?

20 A. It was approximately at 8.00 in the morning, but don't take my

21 word for it.

22 Q. I'm just interested in the time-frame, approximately.

23 A. Well, perhaps it was about an hour or so.

24 Q. During that hour did anybody enter the bus; do you remember?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. I'm talking about the hospital.

2 A. Major Sljivancanin entered.

3 Q. The bus?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did anybody leave the bus?

6 A. Yes. Some people whose wives worked at the hospital left the bus.

7 I think that was the question. I don't know the names of all the people,

8 but I don't think you can ask me for that anyway. But anyway, a number of

9 men or several men went out.

10 Q. So you assert that Major Sljivancanin got on the bus, said if

11 there were any people there that had any connection with hospital staff,

12 and then those few people left the bus with him. Is that what you're

13 saying?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Are you sure that it was him?

16 A. Yes. I think that he was.

17 Q. I'm going to tell you, we heard a lot of testimony here that a

18 lieutenant did enter the bus, but that it wasn't my client, that's why I'm

19 asking you. Are you sure that it was him? You didn't say that any time

20 before, so that's why I'm asking you.

21 A. As to whether it was him or somebody else, I don't know. I

22 couldn't really be specific.

23 Q. Well, I'm even more happy with the answer if you are not sure.

24 Very well.

25 Now I'm going to move to the part about when you set off for the

1 barracks. You described these events yesterday, you described an event

2 that I heard about for the first time yesterday. In no statement did you

3 describe a situation that you were crossing a bridge and that you could

4 see another bridge. What I understood was that you said that you were

5 going past the old pastry shop?

6 A. It was Capiks [phoen] pastry shop.

7 Q. Well, so I understood you properly, but the English interpretation

8 was incorrect. Then you said that you saw a man standing there who you

9 thought was Vance but then it turned out not to be Vance, and then there

10 was Sljivancanin there, according to you, and they were there -- or he was

11 there as you were crossing the bridge. Will you agree with me that the

12 fact that you saw Sljivancanin there at that place you did not mention in

13 any previous statement?

14 A. I really don't remember anymore.

15 Q. I spent all night going through it and checking.

16 A. Well, then I believe you.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we ask the registry to show us a

18 photograph. That is photograph marked 00531236. It's exhibit number that

19 I already provided earlier to the registrar. I don't have it written here

20 with me.

21 Q. Now you will see a photograph. I think it's Exhibit 256.

22 Do you see the photograph in front of you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What do we see on this photograph?

25 A. A lot of things.

1 Q. All right. Then we will be more specific. Can you see the bridge

2 which you took across the river when you were going from the hospital to

3 the barracks, or shall we zoom in a little bit more?

4 A. No, no, it's okay. I can see that bridge.

5 Q. Now we're going to zoom in a little bit on the middle part of the

6 photograph. Excellent.

7 Could the usher please go to the witness.

8 If you can, can you mark your movement on the photograph, the

9 direction that the bus moved in across the bridge, and can you mark the

10 place from the bridge where you saw my client?

11 A. This is the bridge. Are you following?

12 Q. Could you indicate the direction of your movement with an arrow,

13 please, if you can?

14 A. [Marks].

15 Q. And next to that can you place the number 1?

16 A. [Marks].

17 Q. Now can you mark on the photograph where you saw -- where you saw

18 that scene that you saw from the bridge?

19 A. This high-rise building, actually, is in the way.

20 Q. Would you like us to zoom in a little bit?

21 A. It's quite clear.

22 Q. Well, I assume that we will then have to take a different

23 photograph.

24 A. Very well.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps we can tender

1 this photograph into evidence first, and then if we manage to zoom in,

2 then we can see what the witness can do, and we can use this one to show

3 the direction in which his bus was moving. We could tender that as the

4 first piece of evidence because then I am afraid we will not be able to

5 zoom in.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Can it being clear what is the precise place that

7 is marked? Is it the tip of the arrow? Or a dot or what?

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] What I would like to try to find out

9 from the witness is the place where he saw allegedly my client. What he

10 indicated now is the direction in which his bus was moving as he was going

11 from the hospital to the barracks.

12 Q. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And he marked that with a number one?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to zoom in more with this

17 photograph, but since he's already marked it, I wanted to tender this into

18 evidence first, and then we can go back to the next step.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. It will be received.

20 THE REGISTRAR: This will be exhibit number 270, Your Honours.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I marked is the bridge along

22 which we were moving.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Well, you can just wait a little bit and then we will zoom in a

25 little more on that section of the photograph.

1 Can you see that area now where you saw my client with the man who

2 you thought was Cyrus Vance?

3 A. We were moving along the right bridge. We were moving along the

4 right bridge, and here, near the Njegica house, I saw at a slant --

5 Q. Can you mark that with a pen? Mark the right bridge which you

6 were moving along on which you were moving with an arrow, and now where

7 did you see my client?

8 A. [Marks].

9 Q. Was this on the bridge itself or somewhere next to the bridge?

10 A. It was maybe a little bit more to the right, but that's where I

11 saw it.

12 Q. Could you mark with the number 1 the direction in which you were

13 moving, and with number 2, the place where you saw Sljivancanin?

14 A. [Marks].

15 Q. Can you please tell us approximately how far apart these two

16 bridges were?

17 A. About 50 metres, perhaps. Maybe less.

18 Q. At the time you still had the glasses that were later broken?

19 A. Yes, that is correct.

20 Q. Of the prescription strength that you mentioned?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we tender this photograph into

23 evidence now, because we don't want to lose the marking.

24 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 271.

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]. I have a couple of more questions on

2 this topic, but perhaps we could go on a break now, Your Honours. I don't

3 know if we're approaching the time for the break? No? All right then, we

4 will just continue. If it's still not time, then I will continue.

5 JUDGE PARKER: We could take the break now, or you could have

6 about five minutes.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would prefer to take the break now,

8 Your Honours, because I wanted to refer to some text later, so I would

9 prefer that to be in one piece.

10 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at 10 minutes to 6.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 5.28 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 6.00 p.m.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.

14 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, would you allow me just to deal with two

15 very short matters?

16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

17 MR. MOORE: The first relates to the following witness.

18 Mr. Smith, as you can see, is here and ready to proceed, and the witness

19 is outside court. We've spoken to Mr. Lukic. I think he has said that he

20 will take the rest of the day, there or thereabouts. From what I can

21 understand, this is his indication. I have a small amount of

22 re-examination, and I therefore anticipate that we will not get on to the

23 next witness.

24 Might I ask that that witness be released? If not, then the

25 witness can remain and we can start as and when Your Honour wants.

1 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I've been dreadfully bad at assessing

3 how long I will take. All I can say is that I am two-thirds through my

4 cross-examination. There is one-third of my questions to go. I'm not

5 sure how much time that will take. But I think at least 30 minutes, up to

6 40 minutes. My self-assessment is horribly poor. I apologise.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Well, we will assist you. What about 20 minutes

8 then, Mr. Lukic?

9 In view of that, and in view of Mr. Moore's anticipation of some

10 re-examination, we might have at the best perhaps quarter of an hour,

11 perhaps nothing, for the next witness. In those circumstances, we again

12 could say that the next witness will not be called before tomorrow.

13 But that brings me to a contingency, which is besetting us at the

14 moment. We were listed tomorrow for a late start at 3.45 because of a

15 decision being given in another case. We've been informed during this

16 last break that the decision in that other case will take longer, and, in

17 fact, could go well until 5.00. The trial presently being conducted in

18 Courtroom II, which is the only other courtroom, may, by 7.00 tonight

19 reach the position where a witness is finished, in which event they will

20 not have a witness tomorrow, in which event we could use Courtroom II and

21 we could start at 2.15, which, I think, would be desirable, if there is no

22 problem with any counsel. But we won't know that until the end of the

23 sitting in the other court tonight.

24 So I cannot give your next witness and Mr. Moore any confident

25 statement about when we will be able to reach the next witness. The worst

1 scenario is that we would have only one session late tomorrow in this

2 courtroom. But I would hope it will be possible to start earlier than

3 that. If not at 2.15, at least at sometime before 5.00 in Courtroom II.

4 I'm sorry, but as we are reduced to two courtrooms, we have these constant

5 pressures.

6 So subject to the contingency of an unknown starting time tomorrow

7 afternoon, the witness need not remain tonight.

8 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. Your Honour probably saw I was

9 trying to indicate to Mr. Lukic one other matter.

10 We had, the Defence and myself, or the Prosecution, had decided to

11 have a meeting tomorrow through that period, trying to resolve

12 difficulties in relation to agreed facts. The agreed facts are 98

13 per cent done, quite simply. There are other matters that we were just

14 going to try and fine-tune, but if needs be, we can bring that back in

15 time sometime tomorrow morning. It's rather difficult just to say exactly

16 where we stand, whether we should bring that meeting back or whether we

17 should keep it where it was at about 2.15, and then as soon as the Court

18 is ready to resume, we can come straight in.

19 JUDGE PARKER: At the moment, I would suggest keep it where it is

20 to minimise disruption. If it becomes clear by 7.00 that we can start

21 at 2.15, you would be invited then to arrange an earlier time, if you

22 could, for your meeting.

23 MR. MOORE: Certainly. Thank you very much.

24 May I just deal with a second matter? It's -- it's simply this:

25 The witness sometimes comes into court, this witness perhaps because of

1 Your Honour's requirements and the present scenario, and is often in court

2 for 10 or five minutes sitting by himself. I know that the witness

3 service finds that the witnesses themselves find it an unpleasant

4 experience; they feel very isolated. I wonder if it's possible for a

5 witness to come in after the Bench has come in? I know that occurs in

6 other Trial Chambers, and that way then they don't have to sit and listen

7 to conversations.

8 JUDGE PARKER: It is possible. It would lose a little more time.

9 I am conscious that just at the moment our resumption times tend to be

10 delayed simply because there are so many other pressing matters filling

11 every moment of the break and they are unpredictable. We can try and make

12 some administration arrangement to ensure a witness doesn't come in unduly

13 before us.

14 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

15 JUDGE PARKER: And it may be that on occasions we can leave it

16 that they come in after us.

17 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much for that courtesy.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

19 Mr. Lukic, when should I start my clock running on the 20 minutes?

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'll see how fast registrar is able to

21 help me. I would like to bring back that photograph showing the bridges

22 and show it to the witness.

23 Q. One thing I would like to ask you firstly, could you please repeat

24 the name of the pastry shop; it wasn't recorded. And if you could please

25 mark its spot on the photograph, just those two things.

1 A. The pastry shop owner is called Djordje Njegic.

2 Q. Do you know the name of that street or square?

3 A. I don't know what the new name is.

4 Q. What about the old name?

5 A. I used to live on that street a while ago. But I can't remember.

6 Look, that wasn't my last address. That was the first address I had when

7 I first arrived in Vukovar, when I came to live there.

8 Q. If you could just mark the location of that pastry shop in this

9 photograph for us, please.

10 A. [Marks].

11 Q. Thank you. I seek that this be admitted, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE PARKER: It will be admitted.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 272.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. You needn't look at the photograph now. You testified yesterday

16 that you saw outside that shop a man who you believed at the time to be

17 Cyrus Vance, right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When did you find out that this man was not Cyrus Vance, that you

20 mistook a different person for him?

21 A. Once photographs were shown to me.

22 Q. When?

23 A. It was then that I established that this person was not Cyrus

24 Vance but a different person.

25 Q. Can you try to be more specific? Which year was that? From 1992

1 onwards?

2 A. The day I was taken to the Vukovar barracks.

3 Q. It was in Vukovar while all of this was still going on?

4 A. It was after the fall as we were being taken to the Vukovar

5 barracks.

6 Q. It was as early as that that you knew for a fact that that man was

7 not Cyrus Vance, the man you had seen?

8 A. Yes, it wasn't him.

9 Q. I will now read to you a portion of your testimony in the Belgrade

10 trial dated the 25th of October, 2004.

11 For the benefit of my learned friends from the OTP, the English

12 reference is 10, page 10. The Prosecutor will be making sure if my

13 reading is accurate, so I don't need to show you the transcript, just to

14 speed things along a little.

15 Your words, sir, on that page: "At that point in time when Marin

16 Vidic, Bili, was arrested, Mr. Vance was nearby. At this time I thought

17 to myself, Well, we will probably not come to any grief because one of the

18 greatest peacekeepers in all of Europe is here. However, I think he was

19 in the company of Mr. Carrington. I can't swear, though, but based on a

20 photograph that I saw, I think that it was Mr. Carrington. I did see

21 Mr. Vance."

22 In Belgrade in 2004 you were still positive that you saw Cyrus

23 Vance in Vukovar at the time. That was back then. And yet now you are

24 telling us that it was as early as 1991 that you understood that that

25 person was not Cyrus Vance. Which is true?

1 A. It's how memory plays tricks on you.

2 Q. You testified in Belgrade under oath; you are now testifying here

3 under oath. This detail may strike you as unimportant, but it certainly

4 matters to me. It matters to the overall picture. Did you not state in

5 Belgrade that you had seen Cyrus Vance in Vukovar?

6 A. Yes, that's what it says. I read the statement myself. However,

7 I did some soul-searching afterwards, and I realised that that person was

8 not Cyrus Vance.

9 Q. Thank you very much. Yesterday while testifying in chief you said

10 you were not certain whether you saw any military officers standing next

11 to Mr. Sljivancanin and that man?

12 A. I think I did see Mr. Sljivancanin on the bridge, near the edge of

13 the bridge, right next to the pastry shop you asked me about.

14 Q. Can you please now look at that statement with the heading "How I

15 experienced the fall of Vukovar." Page 3. The ERN is 00593578.

16 A. Which page, sorry?

17 Q. This is page 3. I'm reading the last paragraph. And I'll read a

18 portion in relation to the barracks, because that's what we're moving on

19 to next. "We are crossing the bridge, and on the adjacent bridge I see

20 people in white watching the ruins of the town."

21 A. I can't see that on page 3.

22 Q. It's your statement "How I experienced the fall of Vukovar."

23 03571625, that's the page number down at the bottom. The last paragraph.

24 I'm reading the second sentence of that paragraph to you the last

25 paragraph: "We are crossing the bridge," can you see that?

1 A. Yes, "down Gunduliceva Street."

2 Q. Yes, I'll read on from there.

3 "We are crossing the bridge, and on the adjacent bridge I see

4 people in white watching the ruins of the town. They are bringing us to

5 the barracks. We are entering the compound, the buses, one by one, about

6 30 to 40 metres. Once we stop, some Chetniks approach us and several

7 soldiers wearing olive-drab uniform. The bus on which I was was next to

8 the hangar where the ammunition was kept. Chetniks start approaching the

9 buses and then the mental abuse begins."

10 Did I read it accurately?

11 A. Yes, you did.

12 Q. We'll move on to the barracks, but there is another thing in

13 relation to the our previous subject. In this statement you only mention

14 seeing people in white on the adjacent bridge, but no reference there to

15 my client, is there?

16 A. Yes, that's right. And the reason I'm saying this is because my

17 view was -- you see, this is the bridge. Can you see that? Do you have

18 the photograph?

19 Q. We don't, unfortunately. But please describe that for us because

20 we still remember the area.

21 A. There's the pastry shop there, and then there's the bannister of

22 the bridge, and then the trees that you can see in the photograph, they

23 were standing right there. My view was to the left, and I could actually

24 see that from the bus.

25 Q. Fair enough. There is another thing --

1 A. But I have something to add.

2 Q. Please go ahead.

3 A. When were these photographs taken?

4 Q. I suppose the OTP could tell you, but I assume they were taken in

5 1997, weren't they?

6 A. If I remember correctly. Can you see these trees between this

7 building and the River Vuka. I think the trees, too, were destroyed by

8 shells. And that may be why I was better able to get a clear view.

9 Q. Just another question for me to assess your powers of perception.

10 You said that the distance between these two bridges may be about 50

11 metres. My question: You see the high-rise building right there, how

12 high do you think it is?

13 A. I think that's probably seven or eight floors, thereabouts.

14 Q. How high could that be?

15 A. Well, say, one floor is about 280 centimetres or 300 centimetres,

16 so there you have it. You just add it up.

17 Q. Fair enough. We no longer require this photograph.

18 What I've read to you now nearly concerns the barracks. Based on

19 the statements that I have shown you and what you told my learned friend

20 Mr. Borovic today, those people mentally abused you, mistreated you. You

21 defined those people as Chetniks or reservists?

22 A. Yes, indeed.

23 Q. I came across the concept of reservists in one of your statements,

24 so that's why I'm saying this.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have a couple of questions in

1 relation to Ovcara now, if we can please go into private session. I will

2 be mentioning persons whose names should not be uttered in public

3 session.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

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9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. We are now to move to the other facilities. I must admit that

13 your movements between Ovcara, Velepromet and the barracks is a bit

14 unclear -- are a bit unclear to me and I wanted to clarify.

15 Yesterday you stated that as far as you can remember you spent two

16 days at Modateks. Do you still agree with that?

17 A. We came in the evening. I said that we were not taken in at

18 Velepromet and that we were taken to Modateks.

19 Q. You don't have to repeat all that. Yesterday you said that you

20 spent two nights at Modateks. Are you certain of that?

21 A. It may have been three, even.

22 Q. Apart from Modateks and the barracks, do you know the date at

23 which you arrived in Sremska Mitrovica?

24 A. No, I probably forgot it.

25 Q. In any case --

1 A. Well, we spent some time in Sid for about an hour.

2 Q. It is of no importance to me.

3 A. It is to me.

4 Q. What matters to me is the date, if you can remember it.

5 A. I can't.

6 Q. That's the part you were explaining is what we've had already

7 heard.

8 From Modateks you were taken to Velepromet to the death room and

9 the carpentry shop, as you explained. Can you remember what time of day

10 or night it was when you left Modateks for Velepromet?

11 A. It was still daylight, it was during the day. There was a man who

12 came to used to work at the bank; he was at the back. And another one we

13 used to call Dedica [phoen] was in the front. They took us to Velepromet

14 to the death room and they left us there.

15 Q. Yesterday you explained that some people there told you something

16 along the lines, "Let us have Berghofer" and this and that person. Where

17 were they in relation to the room of death? Were they inside the

18 Velepromet compound or outside?

19 A. "Let us have Berghofer, let us have Cakalic." I remember the

20 incident but not the exact place where they were.

21 Q. But those were people who knew you?

22 A. Now I recall. Thank you for reminding. They were outside the

23 compound on the right side of the road, and we were entering the compound

24 on the left side, depending on where one stands. We came from the

25 direction of Modateks, and they were on our right-hand side. Had we come

1 from Vukovar, they would have been to our left side.

2 Q. In response to Mr. Moore's questions regarding the room of death

3 and the two guards, you said that those were young soldiers wearing the

4 typical JNA uniforms, and you weren't able to say whether these were

5 regular soldiers or not. But I wanted to ask you the following: Were

6 they wearing the same uniform as the person you mentioned who was just

7 outside the hangar?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And approximately of his age?

10 A. Yes, more or less. They were his peers.

11 Q. If I may have a moment.

12 Yesterday you stated that Perkovic, Karlo Crk, Martin Sajtovic

13 were killed at Velepromet. What I gathered from your testimony is that

14 they were taken outside of that room and that you never saw them again?

15 A. Yes, and that's how I put it.

16 Q. But I needed to ask you this to make my conclusions. So you never

17 saw anyone killing them?

18 A. I didn't see them being killed, but I heard that somebody was

19 killing people.

20 Q. Based on the sounds you heard?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did anyone tell you that they were killing people there?

23 A. I can't recall.

24 Q. But it may be of importance for this Tribunal. Did you hear that

25 from anyone? If not, we may just continue.

1 A. Yes, I heard later that they were killed and buried. But not at

2 Velepromet. That's not where I heard that.

3 Q. Do you know whether their bodies were ever found?

4 A. I read somewhere or I may have been told by someone that Karlo

5 Crk's body was eventually found in a village in the direction of Tovarnik

6 and then to the left.

7 Q. You were told this by someone?

8 A. Yes, that his body was found there in the place where Croatians

9 were tied up and then shot at. But I believe you're familiar with what

10 I'm talking about.

11 Q. Thank you. After Velepromet you were transferred to the barracks;

12 you described that. And yesterday during your testimony you said that at

13 the barracks you saw the beating, once you were taken in, fed and given

14 cigarettes, that some people came in and administered beatings. My

15 question, hence, is whether the beatings took place in the room where you

16 were?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. In the very room where you were?

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please go into

20 private session for a moment?

21 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

22 [Private session]

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18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. We are about to conclude, but I wanted to clarify one last thing.

22 I'm interested in whether you could offer a comment.

23 This is a document, and I would kindly ask the registry to show

24 the witness a document bearing the number 2D 050018. These are the lists

25 provided by the OTP, the lists of detainees at Sremska Mitrovica, and not

1 all of the lists were admitted, and I believe the OTP was to do that at a

2 later stage. I just wanted to get a comment from this witness. Could we

3 please zoom in at number 206?

4 Mr. Cakalic, I can read the following data here: Your name and

5 last name, I believe the next name is your father's name, as well as your

6 date of birth, the 5th of January, 1934. What follows is what we use to

7 call the individual number of a citizen, and the date of capture. We see

8 here the 19th of November, 1991.

9 Hence, my question: Once you left the camp, and I believe the

10 date is mentioned here as well, could we please go to the right a bit

11 further? The 7th of February, 1992, that's the date of your release?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. But the 19th of November is what is confusing me. My question is

14 whether you provided this data to the Croatian authorities when you were

15 arrested, so to say, or was this introduced by someone else based on some

16 other information?

17 A. I don't understand.

18 Q. The date of your capture is the 19th of November, 1991. And I

19 believe that was not the date when you were taken away.

20 A. It may have been the 20th.

21 Q. That's why I'm confused with this date. Who provided this

22 information?

23 A. It may have been me. I told you already that I keep mixing those

24 two dates, the 19th and the 20th, even as we speak.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have this admitted as

1 evidence, although I believe this is a voluminous document.

2 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 273.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. No further questions.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just want to say one thing. I

6 came from captivity on my birthday. And that was my true birthday, when I

7 came back.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

9 Yes, Mr. Moore.

10 Re-examination by Mr. Moore:

11 Q. I have just three topics. Let's deal with your glasses. You have

12 told us about the prescription that you had, but let's forget about the

13 prescription for a moment. Were you long-sighted, short-sighted? How was

14 your sight in November 1991?

15 A. In 1991 they broke my glasses. I talked about that incident. It

16 was that soldier wearing captain's rank uniform, but I knew that that

17 didn't really fit him. That's when he took my glasses and he broke them.

18 He tried them on himself, they didn't fit, and then he threw them down and

19 stepped on them.

20 Q. Thank you. But I'm talking about your glasses being broken, and

21 what we want to know is without your glasses what could you see? Were you

22 able to read or were you able to see long distances? Can you tell us once

23 your glasses were broken whether you were long-sighted and short-sighted?

24 We need to know. Do you follow?

25 A. Yes, yes, it's clear to me. I was far-sighted. Even now I am

1 far-sighted, but close up, then I have to read like this.

2 Q. Thank you very much. Let's move on to the second topic.

3 You were shown a video with Mr. Dokmanovic. Do you remember

4 seeing that, about two hours ago, although it may seem much longer?

5 A. Yes, I do remember it, yes.

6 Q. Can we just put our minds back, please, to November 1991. How

7 well did you know Mr. Dokmanovic at that time? How long had you known

8 him?

9 A. I met him at least six or seven years before that. He was a

10 foreman at a plant. It was in the direction of Osijek, the turning to

11 Bobota. He was a foreman at an agricultural plant. I don't remember the

12 name. It was the Bobota agricultural farm, something like that.

13 Q. It's clearly the way I've asked the question. You see, what's

14 been suggested, probably, is that Mr. Dokmanovic was not at Ovcara and you

15 didn't recognise him correctly. Now, do you follow? So the Court needs

16 to know how well you knew Mr. Dokmanovic, and how reliable that

17 identification is. Do you follow? So can you tell us how well you knew

18 Mr. Dokmanovic before the 20th of November, 1991?

19 A. I saw him many times, I would go to Bobota -- actually to

20 Trpinja. He's from Trpinja. I knew his father and I knew him too. I'm

21 sure, I'm convinced, I could swear it was Dokmanovic. Not just me, all

22 the others said that also.

23 Q. Thank you very much. You were asked by Mr. Borovic, the gentleman

24 with -- to your left, I won't describe him. You were asked about the

25 dress at Ovcara, the way people were dressed. Now, you were asked about

1 volunteers, and this was the question, so please listen as carefully as

2 you can to it. I know it's been a long day: "Can you be so kind as to

3 describe some of the volunteers' uniforms, those who came to Vukovar?"

4 All right? Now, when we refer to "volunteers," we're referring to

5 volunteers on behalf of the JNA Serbian side. That's the way the

6 word "volunteers" is being used there.

7 Now, you made the following reply --

8 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours. Your Honours.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic.

10 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Of course I am objecting because the

11 context of "volunteers" was actually in the context of Croatian army

12 volunteers, the defenders of Vukovar, so I think that would have been the

13 correct context by the Prosecution. At that point in time "volunteers,"

14 in terms of Serbian volunteers, were not discussed. I think the witness

15 can also confirm that.

16 MR. MOORE: Well that's exactly the reason I'm asking the

17 question, because the witness says: "As for the defenders," and there is

18 a distinction being drawn by the witness between defenders and volunteers,

19 so I am asking the witness to clarify whom he means by volunteers, whom he

20 means by defenders. I can read out the context if my learned friend --

21 JUDGE PARKER: That's fine. The way you were posing the question

22 wasn't putting it that way. If you adjust your question, please proceed.

23 MR. MOORE: Certainly.

24 Q. The defenders of Vukovar, the Croatian defenders of Vukovar, the

25 ones who went to Ovcara, what way were they dressed?

1 A. We all wore civilian clothing. They had their own clothes. I

2 don't think that anyone came in any kind of particular uniform.

3 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you, then, about what I will call

4 Serbian or JNA volunteers or paramilitaries that you saw at Ovcara. Can

5 you tell us how they were dressed?

6 A. May I?

7 Q. I hope so.

8 A. Very well. Some were wearing civilian clothing, some had mixed

9 clothing. They wore uniform tops and just regular bottoms. For some it

10 was the other way around. These were paramilitary units at Vukovar and

11 men that I knew. For example, one of them came to me when we were already

12 out of the hangar, and he asked me, "Uncle Emil, what are you doing here?"

13 So I said, "What am I doing here, what everyone else here is doing." This

14 was --

15 Q. Can I ask you, please, just to focus on the uniforms now. Can you

16 please continue with your description of the way the Serbian

17 paramilitaries or paramilitaries were dressed, please.

18 MR. LUKIC: Objection, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I was obviously thinking for too long.

21 I should have objected earlier. I think putting the question in this way,

22 in the re-examination, arising from the cross-examination, is a very broad

23 interpretation of topics that can be dealt with in re-examination.

24 The Prosecutor now is initiating a topic that was not a topic

25 initiated during cross-examination. The topic was something that had to

1 do with the uniforms or clothing worn by the defenders of Vukovar. The

2 Prosecutor now is asking some question that is too broad. This is maybe

3 something that he failed to question the witness about, and now he's

4 trying to put the question to the witness, but it wasn't a topic put to

5 the witness during cross-examination.

6 MR. MOORE: It was a topic --

7 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, thank you.

8 MR. MOORE: Sorry, my apologies.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, my recollection of the

10 cross-examination, not of you, is that there were questions which went to

11 the capacity of this witness to recognise the various uniforms and to

12 identify them. And I think it gives rise properly to an attempt to

13 clarify just what is the extent of this witness's knowledge of that

14 matter.

15 Please continue, Mr. Moore.

16 MR. MOORE: I've virtually finished.

17 Q. Can I deal, please, with the paramilitaries and the uniforms that

18 you have described? What other uniforms did you see at the Ovcara hangar?

19 A. Stevan Zoric, who saved me and who was killed in a traffic

20 accident in Vukovar, which I am very sorry about because I would like to

21 pay him back for what he did, he was only wearing a jacket of the JNA and

22 a Tito cap, as well as a white ribbon, based on which I assume that he

23 belonged to the White Eagles. Others belonging to the Territorial

24 Defence, others that I saw there, Dr. Ivankovic's son had a cockade. He

25 had a Chetnik hat with a cockade on it.

1 Q. Thank you very much.

2 MR. MOORE: I have no additional re-examination.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore.

4 You will be pleased to know, Mr. Cakalic, that that brings to an

5 end the questions that we have for you. We thank you for your attendance,

6 your patient attention to the questions, and for the assistance you've

7 been able to give us. And you are, of course, now free to return to your

8 home.

9 If there is no other matter -- could I mention that we have been

10 told, unfortunately, that the trial in Trial Chamber II is now continuing

11 tomorrow, and inevitably, therefore, we are faced with a start at 1645 at

12 the earliest. It may be a little later than that, depending on how long

13 the decision takes in the other case.

14 Is there any concern that that is an inadequate time for us to

15 make use tomorrow? It does give us a full session, save an hour and a

16 half sitting. And I think we could use that time usefully, unless there

17 are significant concerns.

18 Very well. We will adjourn to tomorrow, it appears it will be in

19 this courtroom. It cannot be between -- be before 4.45, and it will be

20 then or as soon after that as we are able to regain possession of the

21 courtroom.

22 Thank you again, sir.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.54 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 15th day of

25 March, 2006, at 4.45 p.m.