1 Thursday, 6 April 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. Would you please stand and read

7 aloud the affirmation on the card?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

9 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.

11 Yes, Mr. Moore.

12 MR. MOORE: May I thank the Court.

13 WITNESS: WITNESS P-021 [Recalled]

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 MR. MOORE: Witness P-021, my name is Moore. I prosecute in this

16 case. I think you have seen Ms. Tuma we look a little different as others

17 know.

18 You have been recalled to deal with three documents which the

19 Prosecution served on the Defence after you had concluded your evidence.

20 I will tender this witness, if I may?

21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Moore.

22 Mr. Vasic.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good morning

24 to everyone.

25 Cross-examination by Mr. Vasic:

1 Q. Good morning, Witness. My name is Miroslav Vasic, in case you

2 don't remember from our last encounter. I would like to ask you to pause

3 after hearing my question so that everything we say can be interpreted and

4 so that your voice does not leak through my microphone.

5 Please tell me: On the 9th of June, 1994, did you speak with the

6 officials of the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Croatia about

7 the events which took place in Vukovar Hospital in 1991?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that on that occasion you spoke to a

10 gentleman called Miroslav Filipcic who drafted an official note following

11 his interview with you?

12 A. Yes, I remember that a certain gentleman talked to me. I'm not

13 sure about the name, but yes, I did talk to a man.

14 Q. Thank you. On the 22nd of February, 1996, did you also testify

15 before the investigative judge of the county court in Zagreb in a case

16 against the accused Veljko Kadijevic and others, and did you sign the

17 statement you gave to the investigative judge?

18 A. Yes, I did speak to him.

19 Q. Thank you. While you spoke to the officials of the Ministry of

20 the Interior, you covered the events from November of 1991 as well as some

21 documents which were drafted by you in November of 1991; is that right?

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 Q. Thank you. Before we go to look at these documents, let me ask

24 you this: In that period of time, 1994, 1996, 1997, did you also speak

25 with the officials of the security and information agency of the Ministry

1 of Defence of the Republic of Croatia?

2 A. I don't remember that.

3 Q. Thank you. Does it mean that you don't remember having a

4 conversation with them, or you did not speak to them at all?

5 A. The Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Croatia, no, I did not

6 speak to them.

7 Q. Thank you. Did you speak about the Vukovar events with some of

8 the officials of the security and information agency of the Ministry of

9 the Interior of Croatia?

10 A. If you are referring to the document, the document that you

11 mentioned just a little bit ago, then yes. But nothing outside of that.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will now turn to this

14 document. I think that it could potentially disclose the identity of this

15 witness, so perhaps we should go into private session.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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10

11 Pages 7249-7259 redacted. Private session.

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25

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

8 Would you please play this tape?

9 [Videotape played]

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I believe that we have a

11 sound problem.

12 MR. MOORE: Would my learned friend have any translation to help

13 us?

14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Well, unfortunately I must say that

15 the -- right now I do not have -- I do not have a translation. The

16 interpreters will follow the text on the screen and interpret it for you,

17 and I will submit you an official translation the minute I have one.

18 JUDGE PARKER: That's assuming we get some sound.

19 [Videotape played]

20 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Sinisa Glavasevic is reading this

21 indictment for Radio 101. We cannot claim with certainty that it was ever

22 published in the Croatian media.

23 This is an indictment whereby I charge the Assembly of the

24 Republic of Croatia for the participation of Croats in the greatest crime

25 in history over the Croatian people for taking part in the decision to

1 sacrifice tens of thousands of lives of Croats from Vukovar.

2 I accuse you, gentlemen, for having allowed for them to go hungry

3 while you were sated, because you were warm and they were cold, while you

4 were actually assuaging your thirst with drinks according to your own

5 choice and in desired quantities. You just left them to a cupful of

6 water, to a spoonful of water a day.

7 Assemblymen, you spent your days in your luxurious homes and your

8 impressive offices, and you gave the Vukovar people muddy and dark

9 dungeons, cellars. For your nights you chose warm and soft blankets, and

10 to them you left dirty and squalid quarters and blankets.

11 Do you really think that this is what these people voted for?

12 Why did you condemn our children and our babies to smallpox -- to

13 infection, rather. Are all the infections of the world reserved for the

14 children of Vukovar? I accuse you, assemblymen, for all their pain, for

15 all the dust filling the children's eyes, for every stifled shout, cry,

16 for all the shed tears and all that were unshed.

17 I accuse you, assemblymen, for every heroic hand, arm, which was

18 cut from living flesh, for every wound that was dressed without

19 anaesthetic, and for every surgery taken in this way. I accuse you for

20 all the pains of the hungry and thirsty, wounded, for all the desperation

21 and fatigue of our physicians and other medical staff. I accuse you for

22 all the deaths which resulted because of the lack of blood plasma and

23 adequate medicines.

24 I accuse you for all the desperation of the fighter when he

25 realised that he has nothing to use to fill his -- to use as ammunition

1 for his weapons. I accuse you, assemblymen, for the moment of surprise

2 when it -- the -- when material evidence, irrefutable material evidence

3 reached Vukovar to the effect that the Republic of Croatia have the

4 personnel and all the resources necessary to break through the road and

5 for the defence of Vukovar but does not want to use the same, i.e., to

6 submit the same to the command of the operation group of Vukovar,

7 Vinkovci, Zupanja, which command requested -- which the command requested

8 in order to carry out the tasks set before them.

9 I accuse you, gentlemen, for all the pain of the moment in which

10 Vukovar realised that between you, the Croatian Assembly, the Croatian

11 government, the president of the Republic of Croatia and the Chetniks was

12 no difference at all. I accuse you, gentlemen, for all the disgrace that

13 you inflicted on the Croatian people representing it. The Croatian people

14 did not authorise you for this, and therefore I accuse you of treason.

15 I accuse you, gentlemen, because you stood in front of the

16 sanctuary of the Croatian people, what is sacrosanct to the Croatian

17 people and the Croatian tri-colour, and traitors can never allow

18 themselves to do that. You have besmirched our flag and that is why I am

19 accusing you. I am accusing you for having sung with your criminal mouths

20 our beautiful anthem which used to be sung by the heroes of the Trpinja

21 road, the heros of Luzac, the heros of Mitnica, of Sajmiste,

22 Borovo Naselje, the heroes of Bogdanovci. The heroes of Vukovar sang it

23 as they were defending Vukovar in the thick of fighting, when they were

24 burying the dismembered remains of their friends. They sang it as they

25 were dying. I accuse you, gentlemen, for having arrogated that right unto

1 yourselves as well. It is inadmissible for you under whose blessing

2 Vukovar is dying to sing the song of the people whom you have condemned to

3 a martyr's death.

4 I accuse you for having participated in a massacre, in a massacre

5 of the population and defenders of Vukovar. I accuse you, gentlemen, for

6 the death of Vukovar. The material proof of your indubitable guilt will

7 be given to the Croatian people to see and to the entire world public.

8 Do not delude yourself that you will come before them. You

9 cannot. We are shelling. We are -- we are -- guarantee, sorry. We also

10 guarantee that in the future you shall enter the annals of history as

11 traitors and criminals and that until the end of your lives you will go to

12 bed and wake up with a memory of Vukovar. Signed Vukovar."

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

14 Q. I'd like to ask you whether you recognised the voice of Sinisa

15 Glavasevic?

16 A. Yes. Although the recording was quite bad.

17 Q. Did you have occasion to see the address he gave on the Radio 101

18 on the 18th of November, 1991?

19 A. No, this is the first time I heard it.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic, before you pass on, the Chamber would

21 like to record its appreciation of the interpreter who had a great

22 difficulty with the speed of that rather lengthy written passage.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would also

24 like to join in your remark. This was quite a task for the interpreters.

25 I would like to tender this audio recording into evidence. We

1 will provide the official transcription of this audio recording in English

2 as soon as we receive it.

3 MR. MOORE: We have no objection to it being tendered for the

4 truth of its content.

5 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 351.

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you kindly.

8 Q. Could you please tell me: Did the doctors know whether some

9 patients left the hospital, came back, were they able to follow the

10 whereabouts of each patient at any point in time?

11 A. It was impossible to know at all times where somebody is. One can

12 only be responsible for oneself. Sometimes I was unable to say where my

13 own nurse was, the nurse that always worked with me. One can only claim

14 with certainty about oneself.

15 Q. I fully agree with you. Similarly, one cannot really say where

16 the patients were, and what they did, unless they were under constant care

17 of their doctors. Is that right?

18 A. One can say with certainty where a person is if one is with that

19 person. And as for everything else, I apologise, a hospital is not a

20 prison, you know.

21 Q. Certainly, and fortunately that it isn't. Thank you for your

22 answers. I have no further questions for you.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

24 questions for this witness. I would like to ask the usher to give me back

25 the copies of official notes. We will submit a copy of these documents to

1 the registrar so that they can be filed electronically.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Do we understand you do not tender them?

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, I covered the most

4 important details the witness confirmed that and explained, I don't see

5 any reason to tender this into evidence. I think that transcript alone is

6 clear. At least in relation to what is important for the Defence.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that. The document will be marked

8 for identification, not as an exhibit.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document will be marked for

10 identification with number 352.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic.

12 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, Your Honours, I have

13 no questions for this witness.

14 JUDGE PARKER: That's not a misfortune, Mr. Borovic, for either of

15 us.

16 Mr. Lukic.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps this will be joyous news for

18 you, I have only one question for this witness.

19 [In English] [Previous translation continues] ... document in

20 front of the witness.

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

22 Q. Good morning, Witness. My name is Novak Lukic. I represent

23 Mr. Sljivancanin.

24 Let me remind what you stated in answer to the questions of the

25 Prosecutor on the 9th of November, 2005, relating to the meeting you had

1 in the plaster room with Mr. Sljivancanin.

2 On page 1371 of the transcript, you said that the meeting lasted

3 half an hour to 45 minutes. And then you stated as follows: [In English]

4 And during that time he spoke to us in general about the political

5 situation, about the break-up of Yugoslavia, how that came about. He told

6 us that he understood us as a medical staff. He realised that we just did

7 our job and that it was the natural that we did so. And that he wouldn't

8 take that against us. It was along these lines.

9 [Interpretation] That's how you described what you remembered

10 about Sljivancanin telling you on that occasion. You later said in

11 cross-examination that you did not remember a lot of details because you

12 had a lot of your own thoughts to deal with.

13 Now, this official note, which is a record of the conversation

14 that you had on the 9th of June, 1994, this record is in the third person

15 singular. I will now read to you page 2, paragraph 3, as to how you

16 described this back in 1994. I would like to see whether this would

17 refresh your memory. I'm interested in only one sentence you uttered on

18 that occasion.

19 A. I apologise, would you be so kind and translate for me what you

20 read out from the transcript? You read it out in English.

21 Q. I believe that you were receiving interpretation. You weren't.

22 All right. Let me go over it again.

23 "During that meeting, which lasted about half an hour to 45

24 minutes, Sljivancanin talked to in general about the political situation,

25 about the break-up of Yugoslavia, and how that came about. He told you

1 that he understood medical personnel, he understood that all you did was

2 do your job and that he wasn't going to take that against you."

3 Roughly this is what your recollections were. I will now read

4 this passage, and you can follow to make sure that I'm reading it out

5 correctly, this portion of the official note from 1994.

6 "On the 20th of November, 1991, early in the morning the head

7 nurse Binazija Kolesar" -- her name is recorded wrongly here, it should be

8 Kolesar -- "came into the room and told them to get ready and that they

9 were to come to the main surgical room for a meeting. When they arrived

10 there, they saw a former JNA officer who introduced himself as

11 Sljivancanin. He told them that he was a JNA officer, and that their army

12 had come to liberate them. He also said that they, hospital staff -- he

13 also said that they did not consider the hospital staff as war criminals,

14 because they, as medical staff, were duty-bound to help all the wounded.

15 He suggested that they should continue working in the Vukovar Medical

16 Centre, as there were many wounded, so that the hospital could be made

17 operational as soon as possible. He said that people who did not wish to

18 remain working in the hospital could say so openly and that they should

19 also indicate where they would like to be evacuated to and that a list

20 should be drawn reflecting who wished to go where."

21 So my question is a very simple one. Do you remember that you

22 gave this description to the police inspector, and does it refresh your

23 memory now that Mr. Sljivancanin, at the meeting, said that medical

24 personnel could stay if they wished so, and those who wanted to leave

25 should state whether they wanted to go to Croatia or to Serbia? Is that

1 right?

2 A. Yes. This is an account of our conversation, and I don't think

3 that there are any discrepancies in relation to what I stated previously.

4 I never claimed that medical personnel was denied the opportunity to state

5 whether they wished to stay or leave. Yes, that opportunity was given to

6 us, and I can confirm that.

7 Q. You didn't mention that while giving evidence, and that's why I

8 wanted to clarify that. Thank you.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

10 questions for this witness.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

12 Mr. Moore.

13 Re-examination by Mr. Moore:

14 Q. 0021 [sic], can I ask you questions arising out of the document

15 that Mr. Lukic has been referring you to? He quoted a passage to you, and

16 it ended with the words that: "They should also make a list who wanted to

17 go where."

18 Have you got that in front of you? Have you got the document?

19 A. [No interpretation].

20 Q. Can you just look at the next paragraph, please, so we have the

21 totality of what occurred. Can I just read it out and see if it

22 corresponds.

23 "While he/Sljivancanin was saying that, (redacted) 0021 turned

24 around and saw that the wounded people were being carried out through the

25 corridor. As she recognised some of her wounded patients, she ran to them

1 to talk to them, and asked them where they were being taken. But she was

2 ordered to go back."

3 Now, I am reading from the English translation. The phrase "while

4 he/Sljivancanin was saying that," I would suggest tends to indicate that

5 when you saw the patients being taken out Sljivancanin was present?

6 MR. LUKIC: Objection, Your Honour.

7 MR. MOORE:

8 Q. Do you know if that is right or not?

9 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a minute, please. I think that I

11 interrupted Mr. Moore, unfortunately.

12 My objection is as follows: Everything that Mr. Moore just read

13 out now was something that the witness told us in examination-in-chief.

14 She told us all about this. The question that I put to her was unrelated

15 to this. It was related to what Mr. Sljivancanin said at the meeting, and

16 what Mr. Moore is now raising is -- was covered in examination-in-chief,

17 which took place on the 9th of November, 2005.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.

19 MR. MOORE: The question that was put by my learned friend was to

20 convey an impression, in our submission, that Mr. Sljivancanin was a

21 gentleman who was ensuring that people could go about their business as

22 they wanted and was behaving in an honourable way.

23 In our submission, if there is going to be that submission made,

24 and it's a perfectly reasonable submission for my learned friend, then the

25 totality of the behaviour at that time has to be placed before the Court

1 so there is a general view of context, not just cherry-picking. And so I

2 am merely submitting that if that is going to be submitted by my learned

3 friend, and he opened the topic, then, quite simply, the totality of the

4 evidence should be before the Court in relation to this document.

5 JUDGE PARKER: I believe the witness is not getting a translation.

6 THE WITNESS: [In English] [Microphone not activated].

7 JUDGE PARKER: Okay. Thank you.

8 Mr. Lukic, your objection is overruled.

9 Yes, Mr. Moore.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I need interpretation because

11 occasionally I am unable to grasp the entire context.

12 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is obviously not on the English

13 channel.

14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think we had a

15 problem. The witness was not receiving interpretation into B/C/S.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I need interpretation into Croatian.

17 I understand English, but these are complex matters.

18 JUDGE PARKER: I understand that. Are you now getting an

19 interpretation of what I'm saying? I'm sorry about that. Hopefully you

20 can now hear. And while that happened, I have redacted a name that was

21 mentioned in the transcript.

22 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Moore.

24 MR. MOORE:

25 Q. Witness, I'll repeat it, if I may. You were asked a question by

1 Mr. Lukic, the gentleman with the beard, on behalf of Mr. Sljivancanin.

2 He asked you to -- or he read out a paragraph from the document that is

3 being produced called the official note. You've got that in front of you.

4 Is that right?

5 A. [No audible response].

6 Q. Now, can I deal then, please, you were asked about what

7 Sljivancanin had said. I would like you please, to deal with the short

8 paragraph. In English, it's only four lines. But I will read it out

9 again and we'll see if you can follow it. "While he/Sljivancanin was

10 saying that, turned around and saw that the wounded person" -- sorry, "the

11 wounded people were being carried out through the corridor. As she

12 recognised some of her wounded patients, she ran to them to talk to them

13 and ask them where they were being taken, but she was ordered to go back."

14 Now, this is what's called reported speech from the notes of June

15 the 9th, 1994. The question that I have is this: It would appear from

16 the way the paragraph is drafted, or written, and the use of the

17 words "while he was saying that," that you saw something.

18 Two questions: Firstly, who was it who ordered you to go back

19 away from your patients?

20 A. When I went out into the corridor, as I have told you here, I saw

21 patients leaving, accompanied by soldiers. And the soldiers warned me

22 that I needed to go back into the room.

23 Q. Can I deal, then, please, with another topic? It's in relation to

24 Mr. Vasic and the questions that he asked you about this same document.

25 Now, can I ask you, please, to open that document in English it's 27804,

1 but it deals with a list of people that are named by you during this

2 interview. I'd like you, if you would be kind enough, to look at a

3 document called MFI 345. Can I just indicate the reason why I'm going to

4 ask you to do so, because you indicated you would need to see the hospital

5 records of the level of injury of some of those individuals.

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. What I'm going to try and do to shorten matters, I'm going to

8 refer to the various numbers. So we have got number 2 is Vladimir Varga.

9 Now, this is what is called a redacted list from the hospital that was

10 collated in Zagreb. So the page that I'm going to ask you to look at is

11 going to be the bottom right-hand corner. The page number. Can you see

12 that? So if you look at the bottom right-hand corner, you will see a page

13 number. If we deal with number 2, and we go to page 76, and we look

14 halfway down the page - have you got that? - it seems to be the name of

15 Varga, Vladimir. Is that the same Varga Vladimir that you have been

16 referring to? Could you answer yes or no, please, for the record?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can we go, then, to number 4, please? Number 4, can we go to

19 page 38. Number 4, have you got that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is that the same name that is mentioned as number 4, the same

22 person? We look right down at the bottom.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can we look then at number 5? Page 63. Again, if we look right

25 at the bottom of the hospital record, is that the same person?

1 A. Number?

2 Q. Number 5.

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. Number 6, page 61. Dmitar Pucar, middle of the page, is that the

5 same person?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Thank you. Number 7, page 52. Towards the bottom of the page.

8 Can you just confirm each time, because we do by way of

9 microphone.

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. Number 11, please. Page 21. Robert Gajda, three-fifths of the

12 way down the page. Is that the same person?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. Number 15. Should be page 24.

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. Number 18, page 29. Is that the same person?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. Number 21, page 22.

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. This list of people that I think you have already told the Court

21 on a previous occasion, they are the people who were wounded and on your

22 ward; is that correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. And are you able to confirm that the people that you saw taken

25 away that day by the JNA included some of these people on this list?

1 A. Yes, I can.

2 Q. Are you able to approximate how many of these people that are

3 named by myself were actually -- you actually saw taken away on the

4 morning of the 20th?

5 A. From my list, two persons whose names I set aside.

6 Q. And who were those two that you actually saw?

7 A. The wounded from the hospital.

8 Q. I'm sorry, there may be a misunderstanding. You have told us

9 about a list of people that were wounded and on your ward, and we have

10 that list. You have told us about seeing patients being taken away on the

11 morning of the 20th. And I think it's right to say that some of those

12 patients that you saw taken away were your patients. What I'm trying to

13 clarify is whether you were able to recognise any of the patients that

14 were taken away on the 20th, whether they were any of the people on this

15 list.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And I'm asking you to estimate, if it's possible, whether it's all

18 of them, some of them, approximately how many?

19 A. I think that it was already said. I'm sure about two persons,

20 because I saw them personally.

21 Q. And the name of the two?

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know whether

23 this should be in a private or in a public session, since we are

24 mentioning the list from the ward, patients and so on. And even the

25 names.

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, but I -- I would I take it Mr. Moore

2 knows or expects a certain answer and that it would not cause a problem.

3 MR. MOORE: I would hope not.

4 Q. Is there any difficulty mentioning the names?

5 A. I don't think so.

6 Q. Can you tell us the names that you actually saw of the people

7 taken away that morning?

8 A. Mr. Milan Grejza, Mr. Nikica Holjevac.

9 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I have no further questions in relation

10 to this witness. I would ask that the document that my learned friend

11 produced and cross-examined extensively on be made an exhibit. I think

12 it's right to say that it actually links with the document that is already

13 before the Court. I think it's Exhibit 62, but I just can't remember off

14 the top of my head.

15 JUDGE PARKER: [Microphone not activated].

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Is that correct, Mr. Moore?

18 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I think it was marked. Yes, I think that

19 is correct. It was marked for identification. I would ask that it be

20 made an exhibit. I have no objection to that. And I would equally submit

21 that to some extent it marries up a document that is already before the

22 Court, the core document, which is Exhibit 62, the handwritten list.

23 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, are we speaking of 345, the blue folder,

1 or 352, the official note from 1994?

2 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, the document that I'm referring to is the

3 official note from the 9th of June, 1994. I apologise if I'm wrong about

4 that.

5 JUDGE PARKER: You gave just a lengthy explanation, I thought you

6 were trying to justify the blue folder. I'm glad you're not, because you

7 wouldn't have succeeded. But you will be allowed to tender Exhibit 352.

8 And it's probably a good precaution that that be under seal, it's

9 suggested by the court officer.

10 MR. MOORE: Yes, I have to problems for that. I think that is a

11 wise precaution.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, MFI 352 will become Exhibit 352.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Under seal.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Of course, Your Honour. Thank you.

15 JUDGE PARKER: May I thank you very much for coming again to The

16 Hague and for the further assistance you have given us. I thank you for

17 that and indicate that the questioning has now concluded. So, once again,

18 you are free to return to your work and home. Thank you indeed.

19 We will now have the first break. And because of a redaction, we

20 will resume at 11.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, sir.

24 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please read aloud the affirm on the card

1 that is given to you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Please sit down.

5 Mr. Moore. Mr. Smith.

6 MR. SMITH: I think he is enjoying a welcome day off, Your Honour.

7 Thank you, Your Honour.

8 WITNESS: SLAVOLJUB KACAREVIC

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Examination by Mr. Smith:

11 Q. Witness, could you please state your full name, your age, and your

12 current occupation, please?

13 A. I'm Slavoljub Kacarevic, I'm 49 years old, and I work in the

14 marketing department of a company.

15 Q. And you are based in Belgrade; is that correct?

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. When were you born, and where were you raised and schooled?

18 A. I was born in 1956 in Belgrade and was schooled there and reared

19 there.

20 Q. And after schooling I believe that you trained as a journalist at

21 the University of Belgrade?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. And when did you graduate from the university with the journalism

24 degree?

25 A. That was in 1985.

1 Q. Prior to that can you outline briefly your work experience,

2 starting from your experience experiencing -- experience managing a

3 private company in 1976. Can you explain what you did there, please?

4 A. After I had enrolled in the university I pursued a private

5 business for about three years, I had a small private company, until 1979.

6 At that time I started to publish my work in a students' magazine on a

7 regular basis, and since then have only been pursuing the journalistic

8 profession until two years. So first I worked in the magazine student,

9 then in the daily Politika, and then in Intervju, which was a magazine,

10 and then in the daily called Glas Javnosti, the voice of the public.

11 Q. If we can briefly run through your work career in journalism. In

12 1979 to 1980 you worked with the student magazine; is that correct?

13 A. Yes. Yes, for about a year or so, a bit more than a year.

14 Q. And at that stage you were about 23 years of age?

15 A. Yes. Yes, that is right. 23.

16 Q. Can you briefly tell the Court what your role was with that

17 magazine, and what type of magazine it was, what audience it was aimed at?

18 A. It was a state-owned paper, which was issued by the students'

19 organisation of Belgrade, namely the Belgrade university, and it was

20 intended primarily for students, but its readership also involved other

21 segments of the public because it was interesting because of the

22 free-thinking articles that were published in it, and could be published

23 in it.

24 Q. So the content of that magazine would have -- had political

25 commentary?

1 A. Yes, it was -- it would. Initially I worked as an associate, as a

2 junior journalist, and later I was on the editorial team and I was one of

3 the editors.

4 Q. Then you stated that you worked with the Politika newspaper. Was

5 that between 1980 and 1989, approximately, for nine years?

6 A. Yes, from the summer 1980 to the summer of 1989.

7 Q. Can you describe the type of paper that that was, the audience it

8 aimed at, and the subject content of that paper, back in those years?

9 A. At that time Politika was the most prestigious daily in Serbia and

10 probably in the then Yugoslavia. It was a general-type daily paper, which

11 dealt with politics, but its content also contained all other topics

12 interesting to a family. It had sports, cultural, and other topics, but

13 politics was the dominant theme, and it was the most influential daily of

14 its time in Serbia.

15 Q. And what was your job with that paper and what positions did you

16 hold during those years?

17 A. First I worked on the city column, and then the -- what was

18 referred as the internal rubric or column, and occasionally I would stand

19 in for the editor of the city column.

20 Q. And then in 1989 to 1995, did you work for Intervju magazine?

21 A. Yes, I did, from 1989 to 1995.

22 Q. What was the subject -- the subject matter of that magazine, and

23 what audience was it aimed at?

24 A. It was a bi-weekly magazine, which carried interviews with

25 personalities that the editors thought were in the limelight, were

1 interesting enough, and deserved to be presented to the public, so the

2 dominant content were such interviews. But apart from that, there were

3 different articles and analyses, with the topics predominantly being of a

4 political or historical character, but occasionally there would be some

5 other articles; for instance, fashion or sports and the like. At that

6 time it was a magazine that had the largest number of copies, one of the

7 largest magazines with the largest circulation.

8 Q. What was your role with that magazine? What did you do and what

9 positions did you hold during that period?

10 A. In the beginning I was journalist, associate; later I was the

11 deputy, or, rather, the assistant of the editor-in-chief; and later, after

12 that, I worked as a journalist again.

13 Q. And in 1991 were you working as a journalist in that position with

14 the magazine?

15 A. Yes, I was. Yes, I was, that year I was a journalist.

16 Q. And when you left Intervju magazine in 1995, what was the next job

17 you had, and for about how long did you have it before starting with the

18 other newspaper, Glas Javnosti?

19 A. After that I worked in a printing press for the printing of

20 newspapers, and I was the director there for four years, until 1990. And

21 then as of the beginning of -- 1999, and as of 1999 I worked as -- on

22 the -- as the editor of the Glas Javnosti, and from 2004 I was the

23 editor-in-chief of Glas Javnosti.

24 Q. And the name of the printing press company, was that ABC Graphic?

25 A. Yes, it was.

1 Q. And can you describe the newspaper Glas Javnosti, what type of

2 paper it is -- is it, what type of subject matter?

3 A. At that time when I worked on that paper, it was a daily of a

4 general nature, which dealt with the standard customary topics for such a

5 family-type daily, so politics was one of the major topics, given the

6 circumstances in the country in which the -- this paper was issued, but it

7 also dealt with other customary topics which are usually dealt with by

8 other papers; sports, culture, and the like.

9 Q. And there may be a small mistake in the transcript, but just to be

10 clear, you only started work with Glas Javnosti in 1999; is that correct?

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. And then from 2004 you took up your present position that you now

13 hold as chief of marketing in an IT company?

14 A. That is correct.

15 Q. Whilst you were working with Intervju magazine back in 1991, on

16 the 24th of November, 1991, did you decide to go to Vukovar?

17 A. Yes, I did. The fighting around Vukovar had ceased then, and we,

18 the editorial office, decided to try and obtain interviews from some

19 persons we assessed to have had a significant role in what had transpired

20 in Vukovar. Primarily we wanted to speak to Major Sljivancanin, given the

21 fact that several days before that he had been shown on all -- in many --

22 in -- news programmes on television, in a conversation, or rather having a

23 an argument with a Red Cross representative, and this particular footage

24 made Major Sljivancanin -- TV footage made Major Sljivancanin absolutely

25 the best-known officer of the then Yugoslav People's Army, so that we

1 decided to make an interview with him.

2 Q. Before you arrived in Vukovar on that day, had you organised, had

3 you made arrangements with Major Sljivancanin for that interview?

4 A. No. We had not. We had no way of contacting him and making any

5 arrangements. The only thing that we could arrange was to establish

6 contact through our journalists who had been to Vukovar before that and

7 had already written for our paper, so to organise -- to have him organise

8 for somebody to take us through Vukovar and establish contact with Major

9 Sljivancanin and try to be granted that interview from him.

10 Q. How did you get to Vukovar, and who travelled with you in your

11 group?

12 A. We travelled in a car of one of our associates, and that is a

13 journalist who have been to Vukovar before. There were four of us; three

14 of us journalists, and one photo reporter -- reporter/photographer.

15 At the entrance to Vukovar, we came met with -- we came across one

16 of the volunteers who had spent a long time there, and the agreement was

17 that he would meet us there and take us into Vukovar as we supposed, on

18 the basis of the information that we have gathered before that, that it

19 would indeed be difficult to get into the city because of all the

20 devastation in the streets and because the army would not allow civilians,

21 including journalists, to walk around the city.

22 Q. Thank you. About how long did you spend in Vukovar on that day,

23 the 24th of November?

24 A. Well, sometime from the morning hours, when we got there, until

25 4.00 or 5.00 p.m., not longer than that.

1 Q. And during that day, is it fair to say whilst you were at Vukovar,

2 that you didn't get to speak to Major Sljivancanin?

3 A. Yes. That is right. We did not get to speak to him that day. We

4 did not get to speak to him in Vukovar, better to put it, but only that

5 evening in Belgrade.

6 Q. And you conducted an interview with him that evening in Belgrade

7 that was published in the Intervju magazine a few days later; is that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes, that is correct.

10 Q. Whilst you were in Vukovar on that day, you interviewed one other

11 person; is that correct?

12 A. Yes. On that day I conducted an interview with Captain Radic in

13 Vukovar.

14 Q. And is it also correct that that interview was published in

15 Intervju magazine, the same issue as which Mr. Sljivancanin's interview

16 was published a few days later?

17 A. Yes, that is true. It was published -- this interview was also

18 published in the same issue.

19 Q. Now, I will ask you a few questions in detail about how both

20 interviews were conducted. But before we do that, perhaps if you could

21 describe to the Court what you did when you got to Vukovar that day, from

22 the time that you arrived to the time that you left. Just to put these

23 interviews in some sort of context. And take your time.

24 A. We arrived in Vukovar in the morning. At the approach to the

25 city, the entrance to Vukovar, we met this -- we were met by this

1 volunteer who took over as a driver of our car, and then he took some

2 roads that he knew and took us through to the centre of Vukovar. We then

3 asked him to take us to the very centre of Vukovar, because it seemed to

4 us that the most interesting area would be around the Vukovar Hospital,

5 which was already known on the basis of previous TV reports, so we wanted

6 to be there, in the vicinity of that hospital.

7 He drove us up to very near, a spot very near the hospital. We

8 dared not approach to the hospital, the hospital itself, because he

9 thought that there were troops there that would prevent us from taking a

10 tour of the hospital and that it would not be good for us to be seen by

11 them, that we should rather get out of the car and inspect the

12 surroundings.

13 So we were there, near the hospital, we parked our car. And the

14 moment we had just gotten out of the car, a group of officers came in a

15 car, in their car, and they pulled up and stopped by our car -- by us.

16 They were very surprised to see that we should be there as journalists, as

17 civilians, and they asked us to make ourselves scarce immediately, and

18 explained to us that, inter alia, that it was dangerous for us to be there

19 because the terrain was still being cleared up. There were still some

20 mines there, and they didn't want to assume any responsibility for

21 anything that might happen to us.

22 Nevertheless, we managed to make a -- to agree with -- to stay

23 there for a while, promising that we would not go far from the place where

24 they had found us, that later we would be leaving Vukovar, so that we had

25 occasion to spend some time in that street near the hospital.

1 And across from that point we could see a terrifying scene. There

2 was a yard, and some people in uniform who worked there told us -- who

3 worked removing corpses told us that that was the infirmary of the -- or

4 the dispensary of the hospital, and that in the yard of that infirmary

5 there were several tens of corpses, bodies. We recorded that, we actually

6 photographed that, and published in the same issue of the magazine

7 Intervju, where the talks, the interviews with these officers were

8 published.

9 After a short tour of sight-seeing, so to speak, we went away from

10 there, following -- on the proposal of Radak, I believe, who was our guide

11 through Vukovar, and we went up to a house on a hill, a bit farther from

12 the centre of Vukovar, and as they told us that was some sort of a

13 headquarters of the Territorial Defence, Territorial Defence staff, or the

14 house of the commanders of the Territorial Defence. That house was half

15 demolished, but there several people inside. We were introduced to them,

16 we said what our objective was, why we had come, and we asked them to help

17 us get in touch with representatives of the army, so that we could get

18 hold of Major Sljivancanin. But they were unable to arrange that for us,

19 but they told us that perhaps it would be good for us to talk to Captain

20 Radic, who was also a JNA officer, and who they expected would be arriving

21 at that house shortly, at a certain point in time, but they were not

22 actually sure that he would come, and they were not sure of the time when

23 he would come. So I decided to wait there to see whether this captain

24 would indeed show up and to try and obtain an interview from him.

25 After a while Captain Radic indeed appeared. I introduced myself

1 and proposed to him that we talk about or, rather, that I interview him

2 about what had happened in Vukovar and what his impressions were.

3 Initially he refused, but later on he did agree to it, so that we sat in

4 the kitchen of that house and had this talk, the content of which was

5 published in the next issue of Intervju.

6 My colleagues and some other people who were there around us told

7 me, after I had finished the talk with Radic, that they had somehow

8 managed to get in touch with representatives of the army and that they

9 were given a promise that we could try and obtain an interview from Major

10 Sljivancanin, but not there, not in Vukovar, but perhaps in Belgrade once

11 the army had gone from -- had withdrawn from Vukovar, and that had been

12 planned for exactly that day and was actually in course in Vukovar.

13 Then we set out for Belgrade and arrived there in the evening. In

14 the evening, we rang the phone numbers that we were given -- had been

15 given and established -- got in touch with Mr. -- Major Sljivancanin, and

16 he received us sometime around 10.00 p.m. And we met in the premises of

17 the Guards Brigade and had this talk or were given this interview that we

18 published a few days later in the next issue of Intervju.

19 Q. Thank you for that. Just to perhaps clear up one matter: In the

20 statement that you gave to the OTP, an investigator from the Tribunal back

21 in 2003, it states that you saw Major Sljivancanin in -- in Vukovar. Is

22 that correct or not? From what you've said, you didn't see him there but

23 saw him later.

24 A. I met Major Sljivancanin, saw him in the flesh, only in the

25 evening of the 24th, when we had the interview granted in Belgrade.

1 Before that I had had no occasion to ever meet him. I only saw him in TV

2 programmes in this famous footage which all TVs were playing in the days

3 before, with Major Sljivancanin prominently featuring, and it impressed

4 me, so I remember that. But I did not meet him in the flesh before

5 the 24th of November in the evening in Belgrade.

6 Q. And just very briefly, can you tell the Court the context in which

7 you saw Major Sljivancanin in that film clip that you saw before you went

8 to Vukovar? Just briefly.

9 A. It was a clip which was a photograph in front of the hospital or

10 thereabouts, Major Sljivancanin was talking to the representative of the

11 Red Cross or -- and explaining to him that he was the man in charge, that

12 Major Sljivancanin was the man in charge there, that people from the

13 Red Cross, from international organisations, could not come there and tell

14 them what to do or how things were to be done. And that was more or less

15 the content or the context of that programme.

16 Q. Thank you. And perhaps if we just go back to now to some

17 particular details of your day in Vukovar, I would just like it talk about

18 the driver, the guide that took you around Vukovar and then took you to

19 the Territorial Defence headquarters. You said his name was Radak; is

20 that correct?

21 A. Yes. Yes, Sasa Radak.

22 Q. Did he tell you his nickname?

23 A. Yes, he did. His nickname was either Cetinje, or Cetina.

24 Q. And can you describe him. Was he a civilian, a military person,

25 can you describe what group he may have belonged to?

1 A. To the best of my recollection now, he looked like someone who was

2 not a member of the regular army. He wore a beard and looked unkempt for

3 a regular army member. And I believe that he himself actually told me

4 that he was a volunteer in Vukovar, and that he had found himself in

5 Vukovar precisely in that capacity, having come there as a volunteer.

6 Q. Did he tell you if he belonged to a specific unit or not? And, if

7 he did, which unit?

8 A. He did not say anything directly to me. I did not talk much to

9 him. In the text which was published in the same issue of the Intervju,

10 which was made by a colleague who was there with me, Radak stated that he

11 was a member of a unit that they called the death squad, or the death

12 platoon.

13 Q. When you got to the headquarters of the Territorial Defence, you

14 said there were some people inside. Can you describe those people; were

15 they civilians or did they have something to do with -- with the military?

16 A. As far as I can remember now, all of them were civilians. More or

17 less they had some pieces of military clothing on them. I suppose that

18 they were perhaps members of the Vukovar Territorial Defence, but

19 definitely they were not regular soldiers.

20 Q. How long were you at the -- these headquarters before Captain

21 Radic came?

22 A. I suppose about one hour, not longer than that.

23 Q. And before he came, did any of the Territorial Defence members, or

24 people that you believed may have been part of the Territorial Defence,

25 did they talk about him? Did they talk about Captain Radic? And if they

1 did, what did they say?

2 A. I can't remember now what they said. I know that based on what we

3 heard we gained an impression that Captain Radic was a well-respected army

4 officer and that he was the person that we should interview and that we

5 should make public what he had to say, what his experiences were. This is

6 one of the main reasons why we decided to interview him.

7 Q. And when he arrived at the headquarters, what happened before the

8 interview started?

9 A. Yes. He greeted some of the people who were there. Since the

10 army was leaving on that day, as far as I could gather, he came precisely

11 to say good-bye to those members of the TO. Once they said their

12 good-byes, I introduced myself and suggested that we interview him.

13 Q. When you introduced yourself, I assume you stated your name and

14 the magazine that you worked for?

15 A. Yes, certainly.

16 Q. And I think your testimony has been that he was initially

17 reluctant to participate in the interview, but finally agreed?

18 A. That's correct. Initially he refused it, but after I insisted, as

19 did the people who were in the house, somehow we managed to convince him

20 to have a short interview. He excused himself, saying that he had a lot

21 of work, the army had to be evacuated from there, but we promised him that

22 it wouldn't take too long, and then we finally interviewed him.

23 Q. You may have said it already, but where in the house did you

24 interview Captain Radic?

25 A. As far as I remember, that was in some kind of a kitchen that was

1 in that house.

2 Q. Who was present at the interview, other than yourself and Captain

3 Radic?

4 A. We were mostly alone. I think that occasionally somebody would

5 come in, pass through the kitchen, but it would -- it was mostly just the

6 two of us, and this is how we managed to complete it rather quickly.

7 Q. Just going to ask you a few questions now about how the interview

8 was recorded and then we'll talk about the substance of some of it. When

9 you interviewed him, did you take notes?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How did you take the notes?

12 A. Well, I put questions and wrote down answers in my notebook by

13 hand.

14 Q. When did you type up those notes, or did someone type them up for

15 you?

16 A. As far as I remember, we did that on the following day. I retyped

17 them myself, because those were my notes, and I can decipher them best.

18 So I did that on the following day, on Monday.

19 Q. And then the interview was published in the magazine sometime

20 later that week; is that correct?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. Was the interview that was published accurate to the answers that

23 Captain Radic gave you when you spoke to him?

24 A. I suppose so. I tried to convey the conversation that we had as

25 accurately as possible.

1 Q. I would now like to give you a copy of the interview that was

2 published in the magazine with the usher's assistance. Thank you. This

3 is Rule 65 ter number 36, and the B/C/S version of the magazine interview

4 is 0119-2172 to 73. And the English version is 0059-3913 to 15.

5 Now, if I can ask that we call up the English version on Sanction,

6 which we have here.

7 I would now like to ask you a couple of questions. Is the

8 document in front of you the interview that was published with Captain

9 Radic?

10 A. Yes, that's it.

11 Q. In that interview you asked Captain Radic the question: "What was

12 the fighting that you took part in like?"

13 And he mentioned a little further down: "I lost three tanks the

14 first day. One of them was burnt completely, and the other two were

15 damaged, but not beyond repair."

16 Do you see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you see a burnt tank near the Territorial Defence headquarters

19 when you arrived?

20 A. Yes. In a street in the vicinity of that house we saw a tank, a

21 disabled tank, and somebody told us that that was one of the tanks which

22 had been put out of action there in the course of the combat.

23 Q. Now, of course I'm not going ask you to read out the whole

24 interview, because we have it here. But I would just like to focus on a

25 couple of points.

1 You asked Captain Radic: "Who were your soldiers?"

2 And then he responded, the people that he commanded. I was

3 wondering whether you could read that passage out to the Court. Do you

4 see that passage?

5 A. "When asked 'who were your soldiers,' he replied, 'at one point in

6 time, in the company which I commanded there were about 500 people of

7 different ethnicity and different party affiliations. There were active

8 servicemen, volunteers, reservists, Chetniks and Serbian volunteers among

9 them. I had to unite them all under one command to ensure success. That

10 was achieved with hard work at all times of day and night. It sometimes

11 happened that commanders would come to fetch me at 1.00 or 2.00 p.m. [as

12 interpreted] and ask for help. If a senior officer refuses to help people

13 under such circumstances, he loses his authority. I felt responsible, and

14 I had to do it, both for their sakes and my own.'"

15 Q. And you also asked him, if we look at the interview, the following

16 question: "When you analysed the course of the battle for Vukovar, it

17 seems as though the confrontation line did not move for weeks. What

18 exactly happened when Vukovar fell?"

19 And then he answered that question in a number of different ways.

20 But about halfway down that paragraph, he starts to talk about how he

21 commanded, how he exercised command over the different groups under him.

22 I've highlighted a passage in your original there. Could you read out the

23 passage that was in response to that particular question?

24 A. "It was then that I made it perfectly clear to all soldiers,

25 reservists, volunteers, active servicemen or Vukovar TO members, how they

1 could fight and who could do that. Active servicemen and reservists who

2 had come with me from Belgrade had to stay and fight because of

3 circumstances beyond their control. I did not give the TO members the

4 opportunity to decide whether they wanted to fight or not. It was their

5 town and they had to fight for it. The volunteers who had come from

6 Serbia and Montenegro and other parts belonged to different groups. Some

7 were adventurers who had come to experience the turmoil of war, some were

8 looters and robbers. Some simply tried to be patriots, realised it wasn't

9 for them and wanted to return home. That's why I gave the volunteers a

10 choice. The first one was to obey my every order and work according to my

11 plan; or, second, to go home without any further explanation."

12 Q. Thank you. And then if we go further down the interview, in

13 finishing up the interview, you asked him the question: "Today, as you

14 leave Vukovar, what is the most important lesson you have learned during

15 the fighting?"

16 Can you just read the first two paragraphs of that answer, and

17 then the rest we will tender to the Court later.

18 A. "Those who do not understand what a war is should come to Vukovar

19 and see how much sweat, pain and effort invested during the last 50 years

20 can be destroyed in just two months. Vukovar became a ghost town in just

21 two months. Previously I never had occasion to see a dead

22 man, and here in Vukovar I turned to stone in two months. For me, now,

23 to see in one place, 100, 200 or 500 dead, or just one dead person, and

24 then ... I mean, those who have survived the war in Vukovar cannot leave

25 this place with a clear conscience and the frame of mind they had before.

1 People bear deep psychological traumas, and this will certainly haunt them

2 for a very long time. I used to shy away from seeing a slaughtered animal

3 before, and now I've grown used to it all."

4 Q. Thank you. We've finished with discussing some aspects of the

5 interview.

6 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I would seek to tender the interview.

7 It's the ERN numbers I have read oath, the B/C/S and the English. And

8 it's under 65 ter number 36.

9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 353.

11 MR. SMITH: Thank you.

12 Q. Witness, about how long did the interview take?

13 A. About half an hour. I don't remember exactly, but half an hour.

14 Q. After the interview was finished, how long did you stay at the

15 headquarters before leaving?

16 A. As far as I remember, we didn't stay long following that. We got

17 ready to travel back, and then shortly thereafter we left.

18 Q. Was Captain Radic still there when you left, or had he left

19 earlier?

20 A. I'm not sure. I think that he had left earlier.

21 Q. In the Intervju magazine another article appears in addition to

22 the interview with Sljivancanin, Captain Radic and Sasa Radak, there was

23 an article about Spasoje Petkovic, a soldier in Vukovar. Did you meet him

24 that day?

25 A. I didn't meet with him, but as far as I remember, one of my

1 colleagues who were there with me talked to him approximately at the same

2 time when I talked to Captain Radic. I'm not sure whether the

3 conversation took place in front of the house, outside of the house, where

4 Radic and I were, or somewhere in the vicinity. But at any rate, it took

5 place simultaneously.

6 Q. Did you see Petkovic that day, or is it just the information you

7 received from your colleague that you understood that he was there?

8 A. I'm not sure whether -- whether I saw him that day or later. He

9 came to our office once he was no longer a soldier. I think I saw him

10 back in Vukovar, but I'm not certain.

11 Q. In any event, you received information from your colleague that he

12 interviewed Petkovic at that same headquarters; is that correct?

13 A. Correct. At the time while I talked to Radic.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic.

15 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Although I am a bit late with my

16 remark, the witness didn't say that the talk took place in the

17 headquarters. He said somewhere in the vicinity, and in the vicinity is

18 not the same as headquarters.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

20 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, that's technically correct. He did

21 earlier say that whether it was inside, outside, or in the vicinity, but

22 my friend is correct. I stand corrected.

23 Q. Witness, when you went back to Belgrade, you said that you

24 interviewed Major Sljivancanin. That's correct?

25 A. Yes. That evening, upon our return to Belgrade from Vukovar.

1 Q. Where did you interview him?

2 A. At the headquarters of the Guards Brigade. In one of the offices

3 there. I suppose that that was Major Sljivancanin's office. Or an office

4 of one of his colleagues.

5 Q. Did you record the interview in the same way that you recorded the

6 interview with Captain Radic, or did you do it differently this time?

7 A. I certainly did note it down. I wrote it by hand in my notebook.

8 And I think that we also taped it on a tape recorder, but I'm not sure

9 about that.

10 Q. And when you say "we," was anyone else present interviewing, in

11 addition to yourself?

12 A. Yes. There was a colleague of mine there, and also a

13 photographer. There were a total of three of us there.

14 Q. And the notes of that interview, when were they typed up?

15 A. On the following day, Monday.

16 Q. And the interview that appeared in the Intervju magazine on the

17 29th of November, 1991, is that an accurate record of the answers that

18 Mr. Sljivancanin gave you to your questions?

19 A. I hope so. We always tried to convey statements and interviews

20 correctly. I think that this is an accurate reflection of what he said.

21 Q. And is it correct that you met Major Sljivancanin on a number of

22 occasions after this interview over the last 15 years or so?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And about how many times did you meet him, and in what context

25 were those meetings?

1 A. Approximately 10 times under various circumstances. Sometimes we

2 sought help. We as editors, needed certain information. So we sought

3 help from Major Sljivancanin. One of the most interesting issues in which

4 he helped us was that after a year or so he enabled us to visit the White

5 Palace, which was presidential residence, and it was closed to the public.

6 Due to Major Sljivancanin's intervention, we were able to get inside the

7 building, tour it, and photograph it, and publish it. And then on some

8 occasions we would meet informally and greet each other.

9 Q. Would it be fair to say that the relationship you established

10 during that interview with Major Sljivancanin led to a good cooperation

11 between the two of you to enable these -- this type of contact to occur

12 later?

13 A. I think so. I think so.

14 Q. Perhaps now if we can look just briefly at the substance of some

15 of the answers given by Major Sljivancanin. Again, we won't read out the

16 interview, it's there to be read by others, but I'd like to concentrate on

17 a couple of parts.

18 And I'm referring to, for the record, 65 ter number 36, and the

19 English version is 0059-3890 to 95. And then B/C/S version is 0119-2169

20 to, last two digits again, 71.

21 Witness, if you look at tab 2, you will see the interview that you

22 had with -- the record of the interview with Major Sljivancanin.

23 And I've been advised that the English version of the interview is

24 in Sanction, and the witness has the B/C/S version in front of him.

25 Witness, do you have a copy of the interview in your language in

1 front of you?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Perhaps if we go to the first question after your introductory

4 remarks in the interview. You state: "You say that in the course of

5 fighting in Vukovar the last days were the most difficult for you. Why?"

6 Do you see that question?

7 A. I do, yes.

8 Q. If you can just take your time and read the highlighted text that

9 follows immediately after that question.

10 A. "First I have to say one thing. There were great heroes among

11 soldiers in Vukovar. These were young kids, younger than 18, whom I

12 admired. I am proudly stating that it was very good that there were

13 Macedonian, Muslims and Croats among them, people of all nationalities.

14 This war was a completely new experience, both for myself and my soldiers.

15 While we waged the war, in the evening we would plan what was to be done

16 at night and what tasks were to be completed on the following day.

17 "At night, after completing my work at the command and issuing

18 assignments, I would drive around with a driver. Initially it was the

19 late Slobodan Popovic, and later Rajko Tomic. We had a map of Vukovar and

20 knew exactly who was in which house at any given moment. We would pass

21 through one field to the next and spend most of the time where the main

22 combat took place. We even went to see our artillery observation post

23 officers who helped us adjust the distance to the target during the

24 shelling.

25 "During the day we killed all the Ustashas who had crossed our

1 path. You see, we had no other choice, they fired at us, and we fired at

2 them. And may the best man win. That was war, after all."

3 Q. Thank you. If we can look at a particular answer that appears

4 further down the interview, when you ask him the question: "What exactly

5 did the ICRC representative want from you?"

6 Now you had previously spoken about, I think, the video clip that

7 you saw before you went to Vukovar and asked some questions about that.

8 But particularly, what did he say in response to that question: "What

9 exactly did the ICRC representative want from you?"

10 A. Yes. That was the question aimed at clarifying how that infamous

11 footage came to be filmed and this was his response. He complained about

12 having to wait very long. Well, I had to wait very long, too, and I also

13 had to lead the fighting. So if we had to wait then you have to wait too,

14 until the following day, if necessary. It was probably all pre-staged.

15 Q. That's the -- the last part of that -- the last part of the

16 paragraph. And I think we can leave the previous bit for the moment.

17 And I would like to ask you one last question about this

18 particular interview. In the following question after that answer you

19 asked: "Did you know about a secret agreement between the Croatian

20 authorities and the International Red Cross?"

21 And he explains, he gives an answer to that. But I've highlighted

22 a portion that is at the end of that answer, and if you could read that

23 answer out to the Court, please.

24 A. "Regardless of all of their discussions, I did my job, just like

25 my soldiers and officers did. We tried to assist every citizen in danger

1 and carry out all of our tasks with precision, although we had lost many

2 soldiers, officers and volunteers, none of the soldiers of the territorial

3 forces under my command tried to take revenge when Ustashas surrendered to

4 us. They behaved with great dignity, heroism and chivalry. That was a

5 major thing. When my sergeant, Popovic, or perhaps it should be soldier

6 Popovic was killed, I also felt as though I should kill a thousand

7 Ustashas to avenge the death of that young person. He was killed and was

8 not at fault, because as a corporal of this country he was unable to move

9 freely through it and was fired upon. Nevertheless, when I saw all those

10 prisoners later, I never -- it never even occurred to me that all of them

11 should be killed."

12 Q. Thank you. After -- after that interview was completed and in the

13 following occasions where you met Sljivancanin because of that

14 relationship that developed, did he ever complain about the interview that

15 was published being inaccurate?

16 A. As far as I am aware, no.

17 Q. And after you had the interview with Captain Radic, did you ever

18 see or speak to him again?

19 A. No, no. We didn't see each other ever again.

20 Q. Thank you. I would now like you to say -- explain -- thank you.

21 MR. SMITH: Just being reminded, Your Honour, by the case manager

22 that I should not forget to tender that document. I've indicated the ERN

23 numbers, and it was from 65 ter 36, and I would seek to tender that

24 interview with Major Sljivancanin.

25 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

1 Oh, Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no objection to

3 this document being tendered as evidence, but I should like to ask you one

4 thing.

5 I have checked the English translation, or parts of this text, not

6 the entire text, and parts -- those parts which were important for me were

7 okay. But now, specifically speaking, when we are reading one part of

8 this transcript, I believe that the English part does not in some parts

9 correspond to the actual text when the -- specifically when the witness

10 was reading the first part of the interview, the B/C/S version

11 said: "Well, come what may or whatever, end of the sticker, whoever gets,

12 it is war," in the English, the official translation is: "May the best

13 man win."

14 Perhaps it seems to you that these things are too minor, but I

15 would like to ask verification of this translation for tomorrow. I should

16 just like to place this on record if there are no great discrepancies

17 between these two meanings in the English translation, then I shall be

18 satisfied. But we -- by the way, we only got the English translation this

19 morning. That is why I have only made this comparison now.

20 JUDGE PARKER: It's what the English call colloquial language, but

21 certainly I'll ask the court officer to try to arrange for just

22 verification of the interpretation of that passage for you, Mr. Lukic.

23 The document is received.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 354, Your Honours.

1 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Just for the record, an unrevised translation had been provided to

3 the Defence a long time ago. And the -- this particular English

4 translation was provided yesterday. It -- because it appeared more

5 revised.

6 Q. Witness, if we can go back now to when you arrived in Vukovar.

7 You said that you went to some sort of clinic or some place where you saw

8 a number of bodies, and that place was near the hospital. Is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you describe that place in relation to where it was from the

12 hospital, how far away was it?

13 A. It was several hundred metres away from the hospital. It was, as

14 they told us at the time, some sort of an infirmary, and in the court of

15 this -- in the yard of this infirmary there were bodies. Those that were

16 there, that we found there, the people namely, they all thought that these

17 were bodies of Serbian civilians.

18 Q. And who told you that?

19 A. Some of the soldiers or some of the men in uniform who were

20 working to pull out the bodies from that yard, and the pulling out of the

21 bodies from the yard was in course precisely [as interpreted] as we

22 arrived on the scene.

23 Q. I'll just now show you a video clip in Sanction. It's from

24 Exhibit 136. The timer is two minutes 58 to three minutes and 25, and

25 it's from a larger clip of six minutes and 15 seconds. And I would like

1 you to have a look amount the clip to see whether you recognise --

2 recognise it.

3 [Videotape played]

4 MR. SMITH:

5 Q. Witness, looking at that clip, are you able to say whether that

6 was the same place that you went to when you arrived at Vukovar that you

7 just talked about, or not?

8 A. It seems to be that place. It resembles very much the place that

9 I was at, and the photographs that we published from that place.

10 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, that exhibit has been tendered, so there

11 is no need for me to tender it again.

12 JUDGE PARKER: What was the exhibit number?

13 MR. SMITH: 136, Your Honour. Two minutes 58 to three minutes

14 and 25 seconds.

15 Q. Witness, can you -- firstly, did you go to the centre of town when

16 you were being shown around by Radak, Sasa Radak?

17 A. Yes. We were more or less near the centre of town. We passed by

18 some roads and came near the hospital. Then we walked for several hundred

19 metres around there to where the -- as long as it was safe, in our

20 assessment. There were some soldiers there, and we didn't want to draw

21 their attention. And these were the scenes that we saw there in Vukovar,

22 and then we went back to the hotel on foot.

23 Q. What are some of the buildings that you remember in the centre of

24 town when you walked there?

25 A. The hotel is actually a house, a building that I remember most

1 vividly, and of course I remember the other ruins. I remember the

2 hospital building.

3 Q. After leaving Vukovar on the 24th of November, did you ever return

4 to Vukovar? And, if you did, on about how many occasions?

5 A. Yes, I did. I was there later on a couple of occasions, two or

6 three times in the following two or three years --

7 THE INTERPRETER: But the interpreter is not sure she heard the

8 last part of the sentence correctly.

9 MR. SMITH:

10 Q. It's not completely clear from the transcript, Witness, about how

11 many times you went back to Vukovar. First, how many times did you go

12 back?

13 A. So after that, after this visit in 1991, I went to Vukovar two or

14 three times in the following two or three years, until 1994 or

15 thereabouts.

16 Q. And what was the purpose for you to go back there?

17 A. I took delegations of foreign journalists there, as well as the

18 representatives of different foreign political institutions in order to

19 show them what the result or war looked like. And then they themselves

20 wanted to see Vukovar, which had, by that time, become the symbol of the

21 conflict in our country.

22 Q. And when you went back on those occasions, would you take them to

23 the centre of town?

24 A. Yes, I would.

25 Q. Can you describe the destruction you saw in Vukovar when you went

1 there on the 24th of November, particularly in the town centre and

2 generally in other places?

3 A. What I remember is that we didn't see a single whole house that

4 had not been destroyed. The entire city was devastated and was very --

5 the whole city were impassable some of the streets were virtually

6 impassable, so that we could hardly pass by car to reach the hospital. I

7 really don't know what else I could say. The whole city was a shambles.

8 Q. In a minute -- in a moment we'll just show you a video clip to see

9 if you can recognise anything within it.

10 MR. SMITH: But shortly after that, I think because e-court takes

11 a little time to pull up a map, I would ask that through e-court the

12 Vukovar town map, 0468-7703, if that could be called up.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Exhibit 156 probably will do.

14 MR. SMITH: Unfortunately, you're not --

15 JUDGE PARKER: You mean you want the high-density one?

16 MR. SMITH: Neither. Your Honour, we're upgrading the map. We

17 haven't had a map in this case, unfortunately, with the street names as

18 specific as we would like and the street names that applied back in 1991.

19 This is a new map that we think will help connect some evidence in the

20 case.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. I was trying to help the registry. I

22 will be quiet again.

23 MR. SMITH: It's greatly appreciated in any event, Your Honour.

24 If we can show the video now, please. And it's 65 ter number 310,

25 at one hour 28 minutes and 39 seconds to one hour 29 minutes and 50

1 seconds.

2 [Videotape played]

3 MR. SMITH:

4 Q. Witness, were you able to see that video clip on your screen?

5 A. Yes, I was.

6 Q. And did you recognise what the video was of?

7 A. Yes, these are recognisable buildings from Vukovar. That is the

8 environment of the hotel, the surroundings of the hotel, more or less.

9 Q. And which hotel are you referring to?

10 A. This is a hotel in Vukovar on the river-bank, which is a symbol of

11 the devastated city. I believe that its name was the Dunav Hotel, the

12 Danube.

13 Q. And were there any differences in the video clip you saw to what

14 you saw when you arrived on the 24th of November and looked around the

15 city centre, in terms of the damage?

16 A. Well, there are no substantial differences.

17 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I would seek to tender that video. We

18 received it from an organisation called Filmske Novosti, it's a film

19 archive company in Serbia and Montenegro, and they provided that footage

20 to us in 2000. And the footage has been recorded as coming from a time

21 period after the fall of Vukovar. It may be after, it may be shortly

22 before, from the shooting, I'm not sure, but we would be seeking to tender

23 that video clip. And the ERN number is V000-0625.

24 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 355.

1 MR. SMITH: Thank you. And if I can call the Vukovar town map,

2 the new map with the street names, 0468-7703.

3 Q. Witness, do you see the map in front of you on your screen?

4 A. Yes, I do. I do see it.

5 Q. And if I could ask the registry assistant to enlarge, say, the

6 centre of Vukovar up a little further. Thank you.

7 Witness, on that map do you see the location of where the hospital

8 is? There is a legend on the left-hand side, but I believe you've seen

9 that legend before. Do you see where the hospital is on that map?

10 A. Yes, I think I do.

11 Q. And if I can ask you to mark that location, say, with a large

12 letter A, please.

13 A. Let me just see how.

14 Q. Thank you. And the Territorial Defence headquarters, which you

15 interviewed Captain Radic in, can you put the approximate location of

16 where that was, if you are able?

17 A. I could only do that approximately. I suppose it was in this

18 section which is called Petrova Gora, and I believe that that is somewhere

19 around here.

20 Q. And why do you think that the headquarters were in Petrova Gora,

21 just briefly?

22 A. Because in one of the texts which we published in that issue from

23 my colleague who talked to a soldier, I believe Petkovic, said that he had

24 found him in the settlement of Petrova Gora, and I suppose that that is

25 where I had been, and where I had talked to Captain Radic. I remember

1 that we had to climb uphill from the hospital up to this house where we

2 interviewed Radic, and that is all as far as my recollection and knowledge

3 of this particular topic goes.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I would seek to tender this annotated

6 map, and also a blank version of the map as well. And also I believe we

7 have a -- an English version of the legend of that map as well. So those

8 three -- three exhibits. And I believe that the procedure is that the

9 English version and the B/C/S version, which really relates to the legend,

10 normally gets one exhibit number. I'm in Your Honour's hands on that.

11 JUDGE PARKER: The map that has been marked will be received.

12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 356, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE PARKER: The map itself will be received.

14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 357, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE PARKER: And the legends will be received.

16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I may have confused the issue. We have a

18 map an English legend on it. So that we have two versions of the same

19 map.

20 JUDGE PARKER: The legend will be received, the English legend

21 will be received as part of Exhibit 357.

22 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. And, just for the record,

23 Your Honour, this map was obtained from the Vukovar museum. We received

24 it earlier this month; obviously the Defence have a copy. And it's a

25 street map of Vukovar which was dated in 1984. And the street names would

1 have been the names that applied in 1991.

2 If Your Honour just bears with me for 30 seconds, I'm just

3 finalising.

4 Q. Witness, you may have mentioned this already, but you did your

5 national service in Croatia in 1982 for 12 months; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, that is correct.

7 MR. SMITH: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Smith.

9 Obviously with the time we must take the second break now. And we

10 will resume at five minutes to 1.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 12.34 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Domazet.

14 MR. DOMAZET: Thank you, Your Honour. [Interpretation] Good

15 afternoon, everyone.

16 Cross-examination by Mr. Domazet:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Kacarevic.

18 A. Good afternoon

19 Q. Let me introduce myself. I am Vladimir Domazet, one of the

20 Defence counsel of Mr. Mrksic. I will be putting questions to you on

21 behalf of the defence of Mr. Mrksic.

22 Right at the outset let me please ask you to bear in mind that we

23 speak the same language and that there is a need to make a pause between

24 question and answer, so that the interpreters can do their job.

25 Mr. Kacarevic, when answering in examination-in-chief, you gave us

1 some information about your biography and career, and it seems that you

2 spent the majority of your career as a journalist, but you are not working

3 as one now; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How long has it been since you stopped working as a journalist?

6 A. Approximately two years, from the beginning of 2004.

7 Q. You said that you were employed in the marketing department of a

8 company. Unless it's a problem for you, would you tell us what company

9 you work for?

10 A. Is that necessary? I work for a company called Informatika A.D.,

11 from Belgrade.

12 Q. Mr. Kacarevic, if I understood it correctly, it seems that you

13 graduated when you were 28 or 29, but you had worked as a journalist prior

14 to that, first of all, for a paper called Student?

15 A. Yes. First for Student, and then for Politika.

16 Q. When answering my learned friend's questions you spoke about

17 Student and how influential it was at a certain point in time. Let me ask

18 you this: I can't remember exactly, although I did follow that paper for

19 a long time, did you work there during the period of time when it was

20 frequently banned from working by court injunction, due to its political

21 writings and so on?

22 A. Yes, I was there at the time when that paper had a lot of typical

23 problems with the authorities. When I was there, there were no

24 injunctions banning our work during that one year; however, there were

25 changes in the leadership, among the editors of the paper.

1 Q. And when you moved from Student to Politika, that was an

2 advancement in your career. You said that Politika was an influential

3 paper, and the same goes for the publishing company. Is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You described Politika as a prominent, influential daily; I will

6 fully agree with you. Especially given that it is one of the oldest

7 dailies, not only in Serbia, but perhaps in Europe as well. During the

8 period of time when you worked there, was there a time when, in view of

9 many in Serbia, Politika did not live up to its former glory, to its

10 former reputation, especially when it came to political articles and those

11 dealing with internal politics?

12 A. It depends on how you judge it. The period of time when I came to

13 Politika was not known as one of its golden days, hey days, but later on

14 it resumed its former influence. It depends on what the relations are

15 between the politicians and the paper. Sometimes one side is stronger and

16 sometimes the other one.

17 Q. Yes, I think that that period of time was not the most glorious

18 one for Politika. I think that that was the time when that there was that

19 infamous show-down between the late Milosevic and late Stambolic and that

20 the paper Politika was used as a means to fight each other.

21 A. I came to Politika immediately after the death of Josip Broz Tito,

22 and during that period of time the role of Politika was a much simpler

23 one. There were no particular diverse currents in the political life of

24 Serbia. Later on, after 1984 and 1985, certain factions became to emerge,

25 but soon thereafter I left Politika myself.

1 Q. Yes, that's precisely the period I was referring to, 1988 and

2 1989, when you left Politika. That was the period that I referred to.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When you moved to the paper called Intervju in 1991, you described

5 the kind of work that you did when you went to Vukovar, and at that time

6 you worked as a journalist in Intervju; is that right? You did not hold a

7 higher position?

8 A. I did prior to that. Several months upon starting to work for

9 Intervju I worked as assistant editor, and then I moved to a position just

10 below that, and then after that I was a journalist and a member of the

11 editorial board at the time when these interviews in Vukovar when made.

12 Q. While you were at Intervju, did you have any problems with -- with

13 anything? Did you leave that paper because of the problems you

14 encountered, or what was the reason when you moved to Glas Javnosti -- or

15 no, you went to the printing to the press first. Isn't that right?

16 A. Yes, initially there were no problems when I started working in

17 Intervju, and later on the leadership was removed, so all of us had to

18 step down, take a position a step below. That was a period of time when

19 it became increasingly difficult to work at Intervju, and it ended with my

20 resignation. That's when I moved to a different job.

21 Q. Am I to understand that the reasons were of political nature? Was

22 some political pressure exerted, or were they dissatisfied with your work,

23 that of yours and your colleagues?

24 A. The reasons were mostly of political nature.

25 Q. While you worked for the printing press, you certainly weren't

1 employed there as a journalist, so I'm not going to ask you about this.

2 But you said that starting in 1989 you began to work for Glas Javnosti.

3 I can't recall now precisely, but I think that that paper was created

4 once a conflict broke down in a paper called Blic, and so -- that was

5 another renowned daily, and after some journalists split from that paper,

6 Glas Javnosti was created. Was that when you started working for them or

7 a bit later?

8 A. A bit later, the following year. Glas Javnosti was established in

9 1988 and I started working for them in nineteen-eighty --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, 1998, and I started

11 working for them 1999.

12 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

13 Q. When in 1999?

14 A. In January. I was director from January to July, and then in

15 August I became editor-in-chief.

16 Q. When speaking of the period of time when you worked for Intervju

17 and the problems you had which led to your departure, was -- were the

18 reasons for your leaving Glas Javnosti similar? Did you have those

19 problems or other ones?

20 A. No, I had problems, but of different nature. Not the same ones as

21 when I worked for Intervju.

22 Q. I'm now going to turn to a different topic; namely, your trip to

23 Vukovar on the 24th of November. I think you said that there were a total

24 of four of you travelling there; three journalists and a photographer,

25 photo journalist. Who were your colleagues who travelled with you?

1 A. Dragan Vlahovic, Bosko Sajkovic, and Slavenko Bojovic, he was the

2 photographer.

3 Q. So the photographs of Vukovar were made by the photographer you

4 mentioned; is that right?

5 A. I'm not sure. We also had an amateur camera with us. The

6 photographer used his equipment, whereas the three of us shared that

7 camera among us, and we made pictures that seemed important to us at the

8 time.

9 Q. Now that we're dealing with this topic, let me ask you this: You

10 have in front of you the paper which published the interviews, and

11 interview with soldier Petkovic is among them. We can see his photograph

12 there, and it is indicated that Zeljko Sinobad was the photographer who

13 took that picture. Can you explain his involvement? How come his

14 photograph was included if he was not travelling with you on that

15 occasion?

16 A. I can only guess how this came about. Zeljko Sinobad, as far as I

17 know, worked for Ilustrovana Politika which was in the same building as

18 Intervju. I think that we borrowed that photograph from Zeljko.

19 Incidentally, Zeljko had spent a lot of time in Vukovar himself.

20 He most likely had a photograph with Petkovic, and our paper borrowed the

21 photograph from him. We indicated authorship, even though the photograph

22 was not made by our staff member.

23 Q. Thank you. You also spoke of some problems that you had in the

24 centre of Vukovar once they realised that you were a crew of journalists.

25 My question is: How did you reach Vukovar? Did you encounter any

1 problems, were there any check-points, did you need any kind of passes?

2 We have some witnesses who described that period of time to us, so I'm

3 interested in how you travelled from Belgrade to Vukovar?

4 A. Yes, one needed passes. We had one such pass. And we had to

5 produce it at the check-point near Sid. Later on we thought that those

6 passes would not be valid anymore, at least that's what we were told, so

7 we tried to find a local person, somebody with local contacts who would us

8 get through, so that we wouldn't be stopped at another check-point. This

9 is why a colleague of mine got in touch with Sasa Radak who then escorted

10 us through Vukovar to the place where we wanted to go.

11 Q. So if I understand you well, the only point where you had to

12 produce those passes was near Sid, and later on you had no other problems

13 in reaching Vukovar. Is that how it was?

14 A. Yes, as far as I can remember.

15 Q. Do you remember who gave you that pass? I'm not interested in how

16 you procured that pass but, rather, in who issued such passes.

17 A. As to who issued the pass for us on that occasion, I'm not sure.

18 I think it was some kind of a military service, but I don't know where it

19 was located or how one went about procuring one. I think that the

20 secretary of our paper obtained it for us, but I don't remember because we

21 personally did not participate in that process.

22 Q. The person that you mentioned, Sasa Radak, who was your contact,

23 who was supposed to facilitate your stay in Vukovar, did he wait for you

24 outside of Vukovar, or in Vukovar town?

25 A. As far as I remember, it was on the approach of Vukovar, outside

1 of Vukovar.

2 Q. But prior to that, or after meeting up with him, nobody stopped

3 you again except for that group of officers, JNA officers, whom you met in

4 the centre of the town; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You said that one of your colleagues got in touch with Sasa Radak.

7 Do you know additional details about that? How did they meet, did they

8 know each other personally, or was there a mediator who introduced them to

9 each other?

10 A. I'm not sure how exactly we got in touch with Radak. I knew -- I

11 know that this was the information we had from Belgrade. Prior to setting

12 out we knew that a local person who was well familiar with the terrain

13 would be awaiting us there. However, I wasn't the one establishing this

14 contact, so I don't know how it was done.

15 Q. Apart from this issue of the 29th of November when all these

16 interviews and articles were published, did you personally, or your paper,

17 write about Vukovar at all prior to that date?

18 A. Yes. The paper did publish accounts from the battlefield in

19 Vukovar, but I personally wrote nothing on the subject.

20 Q. Do you remember and can you say something about the general

21 atmosphere that prevailed there prior to the fall of Vukovar in the months

22 running up to the fall of the city? Was there anything like a media

23 campaign, you know what that is, where there are stories of Vukovar, about

24 the atrocities there, from the Croatian side, and how was this covered in

25 the media, generally speaking?

1 A. The atmosphere was one of -- such that one could experience the

2 conflict in Vukovar as a sort of a civil war, and it was expected for the

3 regular army, the troops of the JNA, to actually resolve that conflict.

4 When the fighting for Vukovar -- the battles for Vukovar ended, in the

5 public looked like the arrival of the American cavalry in western movies.

6 That is why some of the people, some of the officers from the army, like

7 Major Sljivancanin, who appeared on television precisely in those days was

8 so -- was so popular. He appeared in a very short clip. And because

9 before that the JNA had in no way been personified in the media.

10 They did talk about the Vukovar and the conflict in Vukovar, but

11 the public was not able to be acquainted with any particular officer or

12 person featuring there. It was all only very terse statements on the role

13 of the army. That was the first appearance of Major Sljivancanin, when

14 the public could see an officer talking to you, addressing you, someone

15 who was the personification of the people's army. Most of the public saw

16 this at that time -- for most of the public this was a relief. It was an

17 end of a terrible conflict on which horrible accounts had reached the

18 public in terms of what was happening inside Vukovar, which was controlled

19 by armed groups, who did this on behalf of the Croatian state, the nascent

20 Croatian state, so it seemed that the JNA was coming there to put an end

21 to all that chaos, to all that uncontrolled conflict and blood shed. And

22 that was more or less the context at the end of the battle for Vukovar,

23 that is.

24 Q. Precisely what you said just a while ago; namely, that I suppose

25 there were in the public and the -- also there were there stories in the

1 public that also reached you as journalists, were stories launched by the

2 other side on all the abominations and atrocities in Vukovar? Can you

3 explain to us in more detail what was being published in those days in the

4 media in that respect?

5 A. I cannot recall the details. I can just talk about my impressions

6 from that period.

7 There was a widespread conviction in the public which was also

8 pushed through the media, through rumours, and in different other ways,

9 seeing that Vukovar is quite near Belgrade and that there was a

10 circulation of people, there were refugees who were coming from there. So

11 there was an atmosphere in which people believed that in Vukovar, which

12 was controlled by the armed forces of the Croatian side, there were being

13 committed horrendous crimes against the Serb civilians there, that there

14 existed a different private prisons in cellars and basements of houses and

15 other private places, that it was necessary as soon as possible to deliver

16 those people there from such terror, and that was the widespread

17 conviction. It was the prevalent conviction at the time.

18 Q. When you speak about this, are you referring to things that were

19 heard and published in the media or both? Namely, was this something that

20 one could hear in Belgrade where you were also, from other sources, not

21 only from the media and from the media?

22 A. I'm not in a position to give you a precise answer to that

23 particular question. This was the public impression. Now how much of it

24 was from media sources and how much was from rumours, I really can't say

25 now.

1 Q. To wrap up this subject, at least as far as I'm concerned, my

2 colleagues might have more questions, to the best of your recollection as

3 a journalist, as a contemporary of the events, it was thus expected that

4 the disarming of the people involved would actually lead to some sort of a

5 peace in Vukovar, and this is what was expected in Belgrade and people

6 actually rejoiced in Belgrade when that indeed happened?

7 A. That is right.

8 Q. Thank you. Do you remember sometime around that year, in view of

9 the events that were transpiring in Croatia, do you remember the affairs

10 or the scandals known in the public and not only in the public as opera,

11 opera and Labrador, or more specifically, more concretely speaking --

12 A. I do remember.

13 Q. More specifically, it was the arrest of a large group in Croatia

14 accused of being the collaborators of civilian and military

15 counter-intelligence services for the account of the JNA, i.e.,

16 Yugoslavia?

17 A. Yes, I do remember.

18 Q. As a journalist, did you write anything about it, or did you have

19 any information about what that was particular -- specifically about?

20 A. No, I did not write about it. I tried to find out more at that

21 time, but I was not really successful. I really did not give a very good

22 account of myself in trying to find out what it was about. It was a very

23 interesting topic, and the media cover it widely. There were different

24 versions, but what was the actual truth was not quite certain. It is true

25 that there were arrests, that these secret operations under those

1 designations were indeed referred to and that people were arrested because

2 of that, but that's it.

3 Q. But -- and do you remember what happened to that entire group of

4 officers and others who were arrested in Croatia? Were they put on trial

5 eventually in Croatia or did they meet a different fate?

6 A. At this point in time I do not recall with precision, I could not

7 reply to the question.

8 Q. Perhaps if I could jog your memory in some way. Do you remember

9 that there was a significant exchange between Croatia and Serbia, or

10 Croatia and the JNA sometime in the period after the fall of Vukovar? I'm

11 talking about the exchange of people who were in Croatia and those who

12 were imprisoned in Serbia? If you can, if you recall that?

13 A. Yes, I do remember that there were such exchanges of prisoners in

14 several instances at that time. I know that there were prisoners from

15 Vukovar, not all of them, but most of them were in the Sremska Mitrovica

16 prison and were from there exchanged for some people from Croatia, so they

17 were let go to Croatia, and I -- that event is etched in my memory, but I

18 cannot recall the details.

19 Q. Of course I understand you cannot remember whether that particular

20 exchange was associated with a group that had been arrested as part of the

21 Labrador affair?

22 A. Yes, you are quite right.

23 Q. Do you remember both as a journalist and someone who was a

24 contemporary of important events, did you write about or did you have any

25 information about Kostic [as interpreted] sometime in September in 1991 --

1 Gospic, I'm sorry, about Gospic sometime in September in 1991 and

2 important things that were taking place there and could affect the

3 relations?

4 A. I did not write about that. I know that there was coverage in the

5 media of those developments. The civilians had been killed in Gospic and

6 in the surrounding area in some battles that were fought there, but I

7 cannot remember the details at this point. I know that Gospic was a topic

8 in the news.

9 Q. Mr. Kacarevic, when you referred to one of these people who

10 feature in your account, that is the soldier Petkovic, I believe that you

11 used the term he used to come many times to our paper, to the editorial

12 office. What were the reasons for his visits to the paper? Was this a

13 person who was desirous of some publicity, or was he after something else?

14 A. I know for a fact that he came to the editorial office at least

15 once. After that he didn't have much of a contact with me, but I do

16 remember that that time he came to our office because he had left the

17 army, he had taken off his uniform, and he came to say hello -- or

18 actually to say good-bye. What his motives were, I really don't know

19 whether he wanted more publicity, or was he after something else, I really

20 don't know. That I don't recall.

21 Q. Thank you. Let me just revert for a minute to my question

22 regarding Gospic to be more precise. You said what was -- what stories

23 were going on about -- were being bandied about about the killings of

24 civilians, what the nationality, what ethnicity were those civilians?

25 A. They were of Serb nationality.

1 Q. Gospic itself is a part of Croatia that prior to that war, had

2 been predominantly in a large measure populated by Serbs. Is that not a

3 fact?

4 A. Yes. In Gospic there was a Serb population, but whether it was in

5 the minority or in the majority, I don't remember that exactly.

6 Q. Please tell me: In these interviews that came out as regards the

7 titles of these interviews, who actually formulated those titles? Was it

8 you or somebody else in the paper?

9 A. The titles of my own text were mine. And the titles, the captions

10 of other texts were, I suppose, by the editor in charge, and the same goes

11 for the cover page. I -- it is always the duty of the -- or -- of the

12 editor in charge.

13 Q. Thank you. I should like to ask you a question given the fact

14 that you have a long journalistic career, and in view of what you yourself

15 have said about some tumultuous periods that we had occasion to witness

16 after Tito's death, after the advent of Milosevic, and after that as well,

17 and the question is: How big was the influence or, rather, was there any

18 pressure on the part of the political leadership while they were in power

19 on the journalistic profession of the time?

20 A. I shall try to be brief and if it is not enough, please say to.

21 There were pressures, and they were reflected mainly through the

22 election or the appointment of the key people in the different papers and

23 the editorial offices, so the influence of the state or the echelons in

24 power was actually reflected in the appointment of the editorial staff and

25 the management of the papers. And of course there was always some strife

1 there, because the people involved were the -- often argue between

2 themselves for the positions in question, and in between in the

3 interregnum there was some sort of media freedom as far as possible.

4 Q. Was it your experience from all these contacts, did the Security

5 Services in that period also have anything to say or influence the

6 appointment of editorial staff, or did they actually infiltrate their own

7 people in papers and editorial offices?

8 A. The influence of Security Services on different paper management

9 and editorial offices, still today a subject for which proof is very

10 seldom found. It was said at that time as well that such influence indeed

11 did exist, and it was quite blatantly obvious, but there was no evidence

12 to be produced to substantiate such impressions.

13 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Kacarevic. I have no more questions

14 for you. I thank you very much.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Domazet.

16 Mr. Borovic.

17 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if -- it seems to me

18 that perhaps, even though it is not yet the time for our break, that we

19 begin tomorrow, because we do not have a new witness tomorrow, and

20 Mr. Lukic and I will certainly finish tomorrow. So if it pleases the

21 Court, I should like to ask you to start tomorrow. But of course I am

22 prepared and can start now, but that would mean interrupting my

23 questioning at a certain point.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Smith, there is no further witness tomorrow; is

25 that the position?

1 MR. SMITH: Yes, I believe so, Your Honour. I think it was

2 believed that the people that were being recalled were going to be

3 cross-examined at greater length than they were, so maybe a slight

4 miscalculation on our part. We'll have one for Monday.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. I think you should take into

6 consideration in future, the increasing speed with which Defence counsel

7 are getting to the important matters, so we might be able to move more

8 quickly.

9 MR. SMITH: We will, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE PARKER: I think in view of that, Mr. Borovic, rather than

11 you spending eight minutes now and then continuing tomorrow, we will

12 adjourn now.

13 Counsel may remember that it was mentioned earlier this week that

14 tomorrow morning new Judges are being sworn in, so we will not be able to

15 commence until, I believe, 9.45.

16 We will adjourn until tomorrow morning.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.38 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Friday, the 7th day of April,

19 2006, at 9.45 a.m.

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