970403ED

Page 1702

1 that at about that time Mr Mucic caused an infirmary to

2 be set up in one of the buildings?

3 A. I don't know who it was who asked for that. It may have

4 been him; maybe somebody else. I am not sure. It's

5 probably him, because he was the only normal person down

6 there.

7 Q. Thank you. There plainly was difficulty and a shortage

8 of food, which became particularly marked in July 1992?

9 A. Yes. In July there was a food shortage. I think we

10 went without food for three days. I know that Pavo was

11 in Austria at the time on a business trip.

12 Q. In August 1992 the food situation improved considerably,

13 did it not?

14 A. It did not improve, not the food situation, but they

15 allowed our families to bring food in bags and the

16 guards gave us the food. They would hand over the bags

17 to the guards at the gate and they would write the name

18 on the bag and then the guards would bring in the food

19 to us, and cigarettes, things like that, clothes.

20 Q. And the person responsible for allowing that was none

21 other than Pavo Mucic. That is right, is it not?

22 A. I think that Pavo was responsible for allowing food

23 supplies.

24 Q. I want to turn now to the question of ill treatment that

25 was taking place, Mr Draganic, and I am sorry to go back

Page 1703

1 over that ground. It is right, is it not, that there

2 was a considerable contrast in the treatment of

3 prisoners between the times when Pavo Mucic was on the

4 camp and when he was absent?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Your observations have led you to this conclusion, that

7 when he was away the guards would take that as the green

8 light to start attacking people if they chose to?

9 A. Mostly. It depended on the guards. Some guards were

10 not, but most of them were beating us, especially when

11 Pavo was not there.

12 Q. For the most part beatings would take place at night; is

13 that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. That would be a time when Pavo was not at the camp, is

16 that right?

17 A. He usually was not in the camp at night.

18 Q. So that we can be clear about this, it was not too

19 difficult to work out if he was about, because he had a

20 particular car or a motorcycle that he would use to come

21 to the camp; is that right?

22 A. He had some kind of a van. I think it was an Iveco van,

23 and he had a motorcycle. It was a stronger type of

24 model. It was over 500 ccs. It was a large motorcycle.

25 Q. There was one occasion I think when you were being

Page 1704

1 beaten outside a building, and that beating came to an

2 end because a car arrived at the camp; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And as soon as the car arrived the beating stopped and

5 you were hurriedly taken back to the building; is that

6 right?

7 A. Yes. I was immediately brought back into Hangar Number

8 6.

9 Q. Was that because the guards were panicking that they

10 might be discovered in what they were doing?

11 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to object. It calls

12 for speculation. He cannot know what the guards were

13 thinking.

14 MR GREAVES: He may well have heard something being said, so

15 let us just explore it, if we may, please.

16 MS McMURREY: It calls for speculation.

17 MR GREAVES: It does not call for speculation. If he heard

18 something that the guards said, he can give evidence

19 about that.

20 MS McMURREY: That is not what the question was, Mr Greaves.

21 JUDGE JAN: How does it affect your defence? He is trying

22 to show that Pavo was not responsible.

23 MS McMURREY: He is asking about specific incidents with

24 the guards and I do not know --

25 MR GREAVES: I have mentioned no names and my learned

Page 1705

1 friend knows that I have mentioned no names. I want to

2 ask the question, please.

3 JUDGE JAN: It does not affect your defence at all.

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can put the question.

5 MR GREAVES: Thank you.

6 JUDGE JAN: Your case is that no beatings took place

7 probably.

8 MR GREAVES: When you were being hurried back into the

9 building when this car arrived, did you hear anything

10 that the guards said.

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear.

12 A. They said in a panicked manner that Pavo had arrived in

13 a car and that I should be taken back immediately. They

14 were really scared.

15 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you now about the injuries

16 that you showed us yesterday, the terrible mark on your

17 leg, Mr Draganic. It is right, is it not, that Pavo

18 Mucic did not know about those injuries?

19 A. No, he did not know at the very beginning, when it

20 happened. After two or three weeks, since Delic would

21 not allow me to go to the infirmary to have my wounds

22 cleaned, I asked Pavo to be allowed to have my wounds

23 cleaned and he let me go there.

24 Q. And you were treated?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1706

1 Q. Mr Draganic, I have no more questions for you. Thank

2 you.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ms Residovic, I think it is your turn

4 to cross-examine.

5 Cross-examined by Ms Residovic

6 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your

7 Honours. May I proceed with the cross-examination?

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.

9 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Good afternoon,

10 Mr Draganic.

11 A. Good morning.

12 Q. My name is Edina Residovic, and I am the defence counsel

13 for Mr Delalic. As regards the events that you

14 testified about before this court I would like to ask

15 you a couple of questions myself. I will try to keep my

16 questions short and clear and I would also appreciate if

17 you could to answer in the same manner?

18 A. I will try to do so.

19 Q. I would also like to ask you if you do not understand

20 something, I will then rephrase my question so that you

21 can understand me?

22 A. All right.

23 Q. Just to make it easier for me, sometimes I really get

24 carried away when I speak to a person whom I can

25 understand. I would now like to warn you that although

Page 1707

1 we could keep our questions and answers very fast, to

2 keep it slower because otherwise the court will keep

3 admonishing me that I am talking too fast. I think that

4 we understand each other?

5 A. Yes, we do.

6 Q. Thank you. Sir, I will try to clarify or confirm some

7 matters that you have already talked about. I will also

8 ask whether it is correct that you gave your statement

9 to the Prosecutor in October 1995; is that correct?

10 A. I do not know for sure, but I know that I gave a

11 statement to them.

12 Q. You surely remember that you gave the statement for two

13 days?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You can also confirm, sir, that on that occasion you

16 stated to the Prosecutor everything that you could

17 remember at the time?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. I also believe that your memory of some events at that

20 time was somewhat clearer or fresher than now, that is

21 almost one year after that initial statement?

22 A. One can say so, yes.

23 Q. Mr Draganic, at the time you also made some drawings

24 which we saw during your testimony here?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1708

1 Q. At the time when you were giving this statement there

2 was no kind of pressure or suggestions to you as to what

3 you were supposed to be saying?

4 A. No. There was no pressure, nor suggestions as to what I

5 had to say.

6 Q. Thank you. Since my learned colleague now presented you

7 with the statements, you were aware that this statement

8 could be used before this court?

9 A. Yes, I was.

10 Q. The representatives of the Prosecutor in the period from

11 October 1995, you met them for the first time after that

12 now when you came to The Hague?

13 A. I did not meet the same people.

14 Q. I just ask you whether you met the representatives of

15 the Office of the Prosecutor as an institution, not as

16 individuals?

17 A. Yes, I met the representatives of the Office of the

18 Prosecutor.

19 Q. I assume, Mr Draganic, and if I am correct, could you

20 please confirm that you spoke about your preparations

21 for your testimony before this court?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You did that immediately before your testimony here?

24 A. I did not talk to them yesterday, I think.

25 Q. I do not mean yesterday. A day or two before your

Page 1709

1 testifying here?

2 A. Yes, a couple of days before.

3 Q. You have been in The Hague for a few days?

4 A. That is correct.

5 Q. And you have been here in the witness room together with

6 the witnesses who testified before you, before this

7 court?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you very much. Mr Draganic, you testified before

10 the court that at the beginning of the war in

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina you were a student at the last grade

12 in high school?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You attended the school in Konjic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. As a young man you also spent quite some time in Konjic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You hang around with your peers regardless of their

19 ethnic background. As we have heard a little while ago,

20 your father worked in the Igman factory in Konjic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You also had an apartment in Konjic; is that right?

23 A. Yes, that is right.

24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please go a bit slower. Let them

25 translate, interpret it and then ...

Page 1710

1 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your family then had an

2 apartment in Konjic?

3 A. That is correct.

4 Q. You also spent quite some time with your family in that

5 apartment in Konjic, not only in your village of Cerici?

6 A. Well, when we were young, we used to live in the

7 apartment in Konjic. Then especially in winter time, as

8 there was a lot of snow, my brother and I would stay

9 there because otherwise it would be very difficult to go

10 to school. Then after the winter we used to go back to

11 Cerici, where we had our house.

12 Q. Thank you. You can confirm before this court that the

13 town of Konjic is not such a big town?

14 A. No, it is not a very big town.

15 Q. As a young man, you knew it quite well?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Regardless of the fact where you live now, you can

18 always recognise, identify the town of Konjic?

19 A. I think I should be able to do so.

20 Q. All right, Mr Draganic. Now for identification purposes

21 I will now ask the technical support people to show you

22 a picture. Please show to the witness for

23 identification purposes the picture of Konjic before the

24 war. That is picture Number 6.

25 MS McHENRY: May I ask if this is a picture that has

Page 1711

1 previously been provided to the Prosecution?

2 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): The Prosecutor had a

3 large number of documents that have been confiscated

4 from Mr Delalic, including the tape SDA, which includes

5 some footage and also the Prosecutor was shown in July

6 some file footage from the Konjic TV and they viewed the

7 tape together with their analyst.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That was not the question. Has this

9 been shown to the Prosecution?

10 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): The tape was shown to

11 the Prosecution.

12 MS McHENRY: If I may just say with respect to that tape,

13 I believe we asked for a copy of that tape and defence

14 counsel indicated she could not give us a copy because

15 of copyright protections but as soon as she obtained

16 authorisation she would do so. I would ask that

17 immediately after this hearing we be given copies. I do

18 not object to this being shown now, but immediately

19 after this hearing that we be given copies of any such

20 information. Thank you.

21 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): The defence will hand

22 over a copy, although I think that the entire film has

23 been submitted for translation and has been submitted to

24 the Tribunal. So now I ask the technical support

25 service to play tape Number 6, Konjic before the war.

Page 1712

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much.

2 (Videotape played)

3 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): That is okay. Thank you

4 very much. I would like to thank the technical support

5 service. I would now like to ask Mr Draganic whether he

6 recognised the town?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. Can you tell us what town was it?

9 A. This is Konjic. I saw parts of the town.

10 Q. You saw some parts of it. Thank you very much. I would

11 now like to suggest that this be marked as an exhibit of

12 the defence, as the Defence Exhibit, and of course we

13 have the duty to provide a copy of this footage both to

14 the Trial Chamber and to the Prosecution. Is my

15 suggestion accepted?

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you would have that undertaking.

17 MS McHENRY: We have no objection if there is some showing

18 of relevance, but as of now ... without some showing of

19 relevance, we would object. It is certainly not

20 impeachment of this witness. Therefore we would just

21 like to have an offer as to relevance.

22 MS McMURREY: Your Honours, if I might respond to the

23 relevance.

24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You were not the person speaking.

25 MS McMURREY: But it is on behalf of all the Defendants.

Page 1713

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Well, let Ms Residovic answer.

2 MS McMURREY: Okay.

3 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, this is

4 the background information for the entire indictment.

5 In the introduction to the indictment the Prosecutor

6 indicated that the actions took place in Konjic,

7 providing precise information about the population and

8 the way of life there. I think under normal

9 circumstances the courts sit in the region in which the

10 actions described in the indictment had taken place.

11 I think it is important for all of us here, in order to

12 be able to understand the events that took place, that

13 the Trial Chamber has at its disposal some images from

14 the town of Konjic where the events took place and that

15 the witness has just identified. So I think there is

16 some meaning for this exhibit to be accepted as such.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The video film is related to a

18 particular period with respect to a particular vicinity

19 which was affected. If it actually has anything to do

20 with it, it must reflect the life at that time but I do

21 not know how far that affects the Celebici offences and

22 the like.

23 MS McMURREY: If I might respond, your Honour, I would like

24 just on the part of Esad Landzo to add why it is

25 relevant to all of our cases, because all of the people

Page 1714

1 involved in these allegations, the accused and the

2 witness, are from the Konjic area. It puts into the

3 context how this affected all the people mentally from a

4 time where all people lived together peacefully to a

5 time where your neighbour was your enemy. I think it

6 shows you that at one moment they were in peace and the

7 next moment it was not so. That is why I think it is

8 important for the Trial Chamber to see that. Thank

9 you.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Well, if that is what it is worth. If

11 one thinks of Rwanda, one can say the same thing. You

12 could admit it into evidence.

13 THE REGISTRAR: The video will be marked as document D10/1.

14 JUDGE JAN: Use the word "exhibited", not "marked".

15 THE REGISTRAR: Marked as an exhibit.

16 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you very much.

17 Mr Draganic, I will now go back to a part of your

18 testimony. I will repeat what you have already said,

19 that you were assessed, as far as you know, on 23rd May

20 and that you were in Cerici?

21 A. Yes, that is correct.

22 Q. Did you know Milijan Cecez?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What about Lazo Cecez?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1715

1 Q. Do you know that Milijan Cecez left Cerici before the

2 events?

3 A. He did not live in Cerici.

4 Q. He left Donje Selo before the outbreak of the

5 hostilities in this area?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you know, Mr Draganic, that he was very closely

8 connected with the arming of the Serbian population in

9 the Donje Selo area?

10 A. I did not know about that, but I heard it later on, but

11 I can't judge from only the things I heard about.

12 Personally I did not see it.

13 Q. Thank you. Do you know that Mr Lazo Cecez used to work

14 in the MUP in Konjic?

15 A. Yes, I know that.

16 Q. Do you know, sir, that after Milijan Cecez left that

17 Lazo Cecez got involved in that business; in other

18 words, with organising checkpoints and arming people?

19 A. I'm not sure. I was never informed about that. I never

20 was present when people were talking about that, where

21 I would know exactly that he was the one who did it, so

22 I can't really tell.

23 Q. All right. Thank you. You just said to my learned

24 colleague that you were brought to Celebici by Miso

25 Jozic, nicknamed Aga; is that correct?

Page 1716

1 A. He did not bring us to Celebici. He was in front of the

2 house of Branko Sudar at Cericko Polje. He was there

3 when we were brought there and he told us we would be

4 going to for an informative interview and we would be

5 back by the evening, whereas I stayed there for 90 days.

6 Q. So the nickname of this gentleman is Aga. Can you

7 please confirm that this is the nickname?

8 A. That is his nickname.

9 Q. And that he is not a Bosnian Muslim?

10 A. He is not a Muslim.

11 Q. Thank you. Can you confirm that the unit commanded by

12 him, that that was the unit that brought you to

13 Celebici?

14 A. We were brought to Celebici by Muslims. They were there

15 together, the Muslims and the Croats, and then the one

16 who told us -- he was the one who told us where we would

17 be going, because he was our neighbour. So probably he

18 would be the one we would believe the most.

19 Q. So as far as I understand now, sir, he informed you that

20 these people would be bringing you to Celebici?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. You stated, Mr Draganic, that after your

23 arrival in Celebici you found already two people from

24 Brdjani who had been arrested earlier; is that correct?

25 A. Yes. There were some people from Brdjani. I can't tell

Page 1717

1 how many, two, three or four. I don't recall.

2 Q. In your statement you also said that from what they told

3 you at that time that they had been in Celebici at that

5 A. I am not sure.

6 Q. So if this is what is written down in your statement,

7 you say now that it may be the result of a lack of

8 confidence on your part, that you are not really sure?

9 A. I do not know for sure. I don't know for how long they

10 had been there.

11 Q. Can you please tell us: did these people tell you why

12 they had been taken to Celebici?

13 A. What people?

14 Q. The people from Brdjani?

15 A. Why they had been taken to Celebici? No.

16 Q. Did they tell you who had brought them to Celebici?

17 A. I am not sure who took them there.

18 Q. Mr Draganic, when you came to Celebici, do you remember

19 who was the Commander?

20 A. Some people were mentioning Rale, a name like that.

21 Q. Could this be Rale Miralet Musinovic, nicknamed Rale?

22 A. The only thing I know is Rale. I don't know his real

23 name.

24 Q. Thank you. Mr Draganic, you said that the very next day

25 after you had been brought to Celebici that you were

Page 1718

1 called out and questioned about certain things?

2 A. Yes, that is correct.

3 Q. You confirmed before this court that this statement was

4 taken by a certain police inspector by the name of

5 Stenek; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, that is correct.

7 Q. Can you please tell us did you state to that inspector

8 at the time that you did not have any weapons?

9 A. I said that I personally did not possess any weapons.

10 Q. Did you tell this gentleman that your father had a

11 semi-automatic rifle?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Did you state that your father, to the best of your

14 knowledge, had received this rifle from Milijan Cecez?

15 A. No, I did not.

16 Q. When this gentleman asked you a question did you also

17 say that Milovan Kuljanin, nicknamed Mici, had a rifle

18 with a sniper scope?

19 A. He did not have a rifle with a sniper. He had a hunting

20 rifle with a sniper on it.

21 Q. Thank you. Did you also tell that person that Miro

22 Golubovic had an anti-aircraft gun?

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the calibre.

24 Q. 162. It is a semi-automatic rifle. Actually of a rifle

25 7.62 mms. Did you see that?

Page 1719

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. Mr Draganic, did you also state at that time that during

3 the attack on your village that you and your brother,

4 Alexander, your mother and your father took shelter in a

5 stream bed and that you spent the night there?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you also testify that your father the next day, on

8 Friday, went to talk about the surrender of weapons and

9 to negotiate the surrender?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Mr Draganic, were these people, in fact, Mr Stenek? Did

12 he ask you some questions about some things that

13 concerned you in person, except for the weapons?

14 A. I can't remember that well.

15 Q. Is it correct --

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ms Residovic, we might rise for 30

17 minutes and you can continue your cross-examination at

18 11.45.

19 (11.15 am)

20 (Short break)

21 (11.45am).

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let us have the witness, please.

23 (Witness returned to court)

24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ms Residovic, you are continuing with

25 your cross-examination.

Page 1720

1 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your

2 Honours. Mr Draganic, we may continue, I think?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. You testified before this court that you

5 were released from Celebici some time in late August?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You were not very sure about the date?

8 A. No, I am not sure about the date.

9 Q. Can you tell me, Mr Draganic, were you the first from

10 your family to be released from Celebici?

11 A. Yes, from my immediate family, yes.

12 Q. After you your father and brother were released?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You also testified before this court that in your

15 opinion Mr Mucic, Mr Zdravko Mucic was responsible for

16 that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You also testified that Mr Mucic came to Donje Selo from

19 time to time. In fact, he came to your home to visit

20 you; is that correct?

21 A. Yes, to my home in Cerici.

22 Q. On those occasions, Mr Mucic was engaged, had a friendly

23 discussion with your father?

24 A. Yes, mostly so.

25 Q. Of course, you were not present during all those

Page 1721

1 discussions; is that correct?

2 A. I was mostly present.

3 Q. Thank you, Mr Draganic. I would now like to go back to

4 your release from Celebici. You have testified

5 yesterday before this court that you left Celebici in a

6 van; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. And that after that you went to the Third March School?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you confirm, sir, that the school at the time when

11 you went there was not an infirmary, as it was at the

12 beginning -- at the very beginning of the war?

13 A. As far as I know that used to be the staff or the

14 headquarters of the Territorial Defence, the TO.

15 Q. Thank you. Sir, you must have received some kind of

16 release form?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. This release form was signed by Mr Zdravko Mucic?

19 A. Yes, it was.

20 Q. On that release form there was no signature from any

21 other person?

22 A. No.

23 Q. I think that you can also confirm before this court that

24 on that release form or attached to this release form

25 there was no approval of some other person. The only

Page 1722

1 thing was this scrap of paper signed by Mr Mucic?

2 A. Yes, that was the only thing I received. It stated it

3 was Territorial Defence, Konjic, and signed by Zdravko

4 Mucic.

5 Q. Thank you. In order to confirm what you said to the

6 Prosecutor a year and a half ago and today what you said

7 to my learned colleague, Mr Greaves, I will now ask you

8 to state that to your knowledge it was Mr Mucic who was

9 a well respected man at his workplace and in the town of

10 Konjic; is that correct?

11 A. In the town of Konjic. I do not know about his

12 workplace. That is something I cannot say anything

13 about.

14 Q. I apologise. Actually it was his father that worked

15 with your father?

16 A. Yes, so I heard.

17 Q. I apologise. I have misunderstood what you said.

18 Mr Draganic, all contacts with regard to assistance in

19 releasing your relatives went directly with Zdravko

20 Mucic; is that correct?

21 A. Yes, that is correct.

22 Q. You did not know Mr Delalic previously?

23 A. I might have seen him at some stages, but I do not know

24 him. The only thing that I heard, that he had a disco

25 club in Konjic that used to be called "Delalic's".

Page 1723

1 Q. That he had a disco club in Konjic?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Will counsel please be careful in this

4 cross-examination because of the private section of the

5 earlier cross-examination to avoid repeating what has

6 transpired in the private session. There is a tendency

7 to slide into that.

8 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you. I am taking

9 care of that and I will not go back to this. I have

10 just one question in relation to this. You, sir, did

11 not have any contact during the war with Mr Delalic; is

12 that correct?

13 A. No, I didn't.

14 Q. Can you please confirm once again that everything in

15 relation to your release and the release of your family

16 was the result of your contact with Mr Mucic?

17 A. Mostly so.

18 Q. I would like to remind you, sir, in this respect that in

19 the statement that you gave to the Prosecutor over the

20 period of two days you never mentioned the name of

21 Mr Delalic?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Since you were able to see your statement now, I think

24 this fact is correct, because I did not have any reason

25 to mention his name; is that correct?

Page 1724

1 A. I might have mentioned him once or maybe I did not

2 mention him at all.

3 Q. You did not have any reason to talk about Mr Delalic.

4 Thank you very much.

5 A. No. There was no important reason to talk about him.

6 Q. Very well. Thank you. I would now like to go back to

7 some questions that I started asking before the break.

8 These questions have to do with the questioning

9 conducted by Mr Stenek on the occasion of your arrival

10 in Celebici. Mr Draganic, do you know Predrag Curic,

11 who used to have a cafe that was part of the sports hall

12 complex in Konjic?

13 A. Curic Predrad, nicknamed Tuta, you mean?

14 Q. Yes. Could you please confirm that the investigator who

15 questioned you asked you about an event that took place

16 in 1990 just before Christmas, when you allegedly had a

17 Cetnik cap with the kokarda, the Cetnik insignia, on

18 your head?

19 A. No, I did not have such a cap with a Cetnik insignia.

20 Q. The question was whether the investigator asked you

21 that?

22 A. I don't know but at that time I did not have such a cap

23 with Cetnik insignia.

24 Q. Mr Draganic, did the investigator ask you about singing

25 Cetnik songs in that cafe?

Page 1725

1 A. I don't know. I don't recall.

2 Q. Mr Draganic, in order to clarify things for the Trial

3 Chamber, can you please tell us: is it correct that in

4 our parts the Cetnik fur hat with the kokarda insignia

5 was the sign of Cetniks who had --

6 A. Madam, I am repeating to you I did not have such a fur

7 hat with Cetnik insignia. Can you make a difference

8 between a fur hat and a different type of head cover

9 that was something else?

10 Q. Mr Draganic, did you wear a kokarda insignia on that

11 occasion?

12 A. Yes, I did. It is not really the kokarda insignia. It

13 is a coat of arms. The kokarda is something different.

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Will counsel let translation take

15 place so that we will follow?

16 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Mr Draganic, can you

17 confirm that the kokarda is the insignia worn by Cetniks

18 during the Second World War?

19 A. Yes, I can.

20 Q. Can you also confirm that all kinds of atrocities were

21 committed under that insignia in the Second World War

22 and that in the Konjic area Cetnik forces suffered a

23 significant defeat?

24 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, may I object? I think this is

25 not relevant and I think it sort of opens up a whole

Page 1726

1 thing about the Second World War and who was the victim

2 and who was not. Unless defence counsel can indicate

3 that he was arrested and mistreated in Celebici because

4 in 1990 he had worn a hat with this symbol I do not

5 think it is relevant. If it is, any relevance it might

6 arguably have is outweighed by its prejudicial and

7 time-consuming nature, especially if it raises up a

8 whole host of other issues which have to be discussed.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Can I have your reaction about its

10 relevance?

11 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, the Cetnik

12 insignia, the insignia of those who assisted the Nazi

13 armies in our region is the insignia that was used when

14 in the Second World War the Muslim people were

15 slaughtered. When that insignia appeared again it

16 caused fear among the people. I do not have to continue

17 asking questions in this plane that have to do with the

18 kokarda insignia itself, but I think it is important,

19 especially when we bear in mind what the expert witness

20 has said here before this court. I think that we should

21 hear the facts that this witness has direct knowledge

22 of. That is the reason why I ask this question, and the

23 witness confirmed that he did wear this insignia. I do

24 not have to ask any more questions in relation to this

25 insignia.

Page 1727

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. There is nothing

2 to associate this part of evidence with his entire

3 evidence-in-chief, nothing to do with it. He never at

4 any stage said he had anything of that nature.

5 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your

6 Honours. When the witness answered a number of

7 questions, in particular those that I asked, he stated

8 that he did know various persons from his village and

9 neighbouring villages, and he also confirmed that they

10 did possess some weapons. For identification purposes

11 I would like the witness to be presented with attachment

12 number 2. Would technical services please show

13 attachment number 2. I would like to say in advance

14 that this is a video footage that we received from the

15 prosecution.

16 (Videotape played)

17 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, may I object? Your Honour, may

18 I object as to, among other things, relevancy. I do not

19 understand exactly what is being said. I do not -- we

20 were not given notice that this was going to be brought

21 up. If there is something specific about impeachment

22 that this witness is going to know about, then it may be

23 relevant, but given that he has already said he can

24 recognise certain weapons, I do not understand the point

25 of this and before we go on again and again with

Page 1728

1 something that we have not been informed about in

2 advance, and I have no idea what it is about, I must

3 object.

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ms Residovic, what is your reaction to

5 the objection?

6 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, this is

7 the evidence that we received from the Prosecution

8 regarding the weapons that this witness testified as

9 having recognised in the possession of some of his

10 neighbours. These are weapons in Cerici in the

11 possession of his neighbours, and maybe the witness may

12 be able to recognise some of the neighbours from his

13 village. I cannot see anything that could not be

14 allowed in cross-examination of the witness.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Your cross-examination is as to his

16 recognition of the weapons, is it?

17 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Yes. The weapons and

18 the people who talk about those weapons, and these

19 people are from his village, and that is the only reason

20 why we show this footage to the Trial Chamber and we

21 received that footage, as I repeat, from the

22 Prosecution.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Has he denied anything about these

24 weapons? Is there any denial in evidence about these

25 weapons, because he did not deny there are people who

Page 1729

1 have weapons in the village. He does not appear to be

2 in any video.

3 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, he talked

4 about hunting weapons. He talked about the hunting

5 sniper. I would just like him to identify the weapon.

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: In my memory all he spoke about was

7 hunting weapons in relation to the others. He did not

8 give a general testimony about everybody else's weapon.

9 He just mentioned about one in isolation, not for

10 everyone in the village. That would be preposterous.

11 He was not making clear that he knew about all the

12 weapons everybody had.

13 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, the

14 witness stated that Milorad Kuljanin, nicknamed Mici,

15 had a hunting rifle with a sniper scope. Here we see

16 military weapons and I would just like the witness to

17 see whether this is the kind of weapons he saw in the

18 possession of his neighbours.

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: As I say, he did not say he can vouch

20 for every person's weapon. He merely called about

21 Milorad's hunting rifle with the scope. That is what he

22 saved. You are now bringing everybody else's weapon for

23 him to identify. It does not come within the scope of

24 his evidence.

25 JUDGE JAN: Probably she wants to find out if these persons

Page 1730

1 are described as --

2 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): I accept then. Can the

3 witness identify the persons?

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The persons who he knows have

5 weapons?

6 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): The persons from his

7 village that will be discussed in the course of the

8 proceedings.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I am not too sure that this is the

10 right way to approach someone who has not been specific

11 about other persons other than one person and who he is

12 perhaps prepared to vouch for. These other persons,

13 possibly he does not even know the type of weapons he

14 has.

15 JUDGE JAN: Probably she wants to show that the population

16 of his village was not so innocently armed with merely

17 hunting rifles.

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is none of his business.

19 JUDGE JAN: He can certainly testify that these weapons

20 were also being possessed by his neighbours. In fact --

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If the administration went and

22 discovered other weapons which perhaps he does not know,

23 I think it is not for him to say whether he knew or not.

24 JUDGE JAN: The object of cross-examination is not merely

25 to impeach but also to get information which is --

Page 1731

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Not definitely from this witness.

2 JUDGE JAN: Which is useful to the defence. If she wants

3 to get that correct I do not see any objection.

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Do not ask these questions.

5 JUDGE JAN: I would dissent on that.

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you do. As I said at the

7 beginning, this evidence does not go, in fact, to make

8 claims that he knew about the weapons which others had.

9 He was specific about Kuljanin's weapon. He said it was

10 a hunting rifle which had a scope. When you introduce

11 other weapons of which he made no claims, there is no

12 point in asking him who knows what.

13 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, if I may,

14 just one sentence. According to the transcript and

15 according to what I asked, the witness confirmed that

16 his father had a semi-automatic rifle. He also

17 confirmed that he knew Milijan Cecez. He confirmed that

18 Mici Kuljanin had a hunting rifle with a sniper scope.

19 As for Milo Golubovic, he also confirmed that during his

20 course of national defence he was able to identify and

21 see the weapons in possession of his neighbours.

22 I would just like him to confirm whether this is the

23 kind of weapons that he saw in possession of his

24 neighbours. If this is not possible, in accordance with

25 the rules of this Tribunal, I would like you to allow me

Page 1732

1 to have him identify the neighbours?

2 A. I am sorry. I did not learn about these weapons in a

3 course which I had with the other villagers from my

4 village. I learned this in high school during the

5 course on all people's defence, which is one we all had.

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I said you could not ask those

7 questions about other people's weapons. You could not

8 ask that question. He has no real sense of knowing

9 that.

10 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, may he

11 identify the persons who do not discuss these weapons

12 but persons who are from his village? May I ask him to

13 identify these persons as locals who lived in the

14 village of Cerici where he lived himself.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. There is no harm in identifying

16 persons who lived in this place.

17 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you very much.

18 I would like to ask the technical service to start

19 showing the part where the people's faces are shown.

20 MS McHENRY: I believe it has already been shown. I would

21 suggest that we ask the witness if he can identify those

22 people so that we do not have to see the entire film

23 again.

24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let it be shown again so that it can

25 stop at the area and see if he can identify a particular

Page 1733

1 one.

2 (Videotape played)

3 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Can we stop?

4 Mr Draganic, do you recognise this person?

5 A. The image is not very clear, so I cannot say exactly who

6 he is.

7 Q. I would like to ask the technical service to make the

8 image clearer, if possible. If you can continue playing

9 this tape, because I think that later on the image of

10 this person becomes clearer. Please stop now. Do you

11 recognise him now?

12 A. I am not sure.

13 Q. All right. Can we go on? Can you recognise this

14 person?

15 A. I am telling you the image is blurred. I cannot

16 distinguish people.

17 Q. Please go on. Do you recognise this person? He should

18 be your age? Did you see any of these persons in

19 Celebici?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Can you please go on?

22 A. Me and my cousin was there and my brother and a few

23 other people from Cerici. We were the only ones at

24 Celebici. The other ones were at Musala.

25 Q. Do you recognise this gentleman?

Page 1734

1 A. His face is not very clear.

2 Q. And the next person?

3 A. I am telling you I can't see the faces well.

4 Q. So you cannot recognise the faces that were shown?

5 A. I mean, the image is so very bad, and I would not like

6 to try and guess. In case I know somebody and recognise

7 a person, I will tell so.

8 Q. Do they seem familiar to you and you are just not sure

9 --

10 A. Yes, they do seem familiar to me but I am not sure who a

11 particular person is, because the image is so very bad.

12 Q. Who would be the person that you would recognise the

13 easiest?

14 A. I don't know.

15 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I am going to object.

16 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, Mr Draganic.

17 Thank you for showing this tape to us. Maybe somebody

18 else will be able to recognise these persons from the

19 kind of images that we have at our disposal now.

20 Can I go on with the cross-examination?

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can but not with the images.

22 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): No, your Honours.

23 I understood the witness was not able to recognise these

24 persons, so I do not propose that for the time being we

25 try to identify the persons or to present this in

Page 1735

1 evidence. We will do that at a later time.

2 Mr Draganic, you said that you were a student in

3 the final grade of the high school; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. You know that in April 1992 Bosnia-Herzegovina was

6 recognised as an independent state?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In relation to questions asked by my learned colleague

9 you gave a statement yesterday about the national

10 service in the army?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You were born in April and your birthday was in April

13 1992?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You were 19 at the time?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You testified before this court that the military

18 service duty could be postponed for students?

19 A. Yes, that is correct.

20 Q. Will you agree with me that according to our regulations

21 people came of military age at the age of 18?

22 A. Yes, that is correct.

23 Q. Only if somebody was still at school, such a person was

24 able to postpone his national service in the army; is

25 that correct?

Page 1736

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is it correct also, Mr Draganic, that in April the

3 school was finished?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know that in April there was a state of imminent

6 danger of war that was proclaimed?

7 A. When in April?

8 Q. In April 1992?

9 A. They were proclaiming all kinds of things. I do not

10 really know what was really proclaimed.

11 Q. Do you know that general mobilisation was declared?

12 A. I'm not aware of that.

13 Q. But must know -- can you confirm that -- that you did

14 not report to the Territorial Defence headquarters in

15 Konjic?

16 A. Yes, that is true. I did not report at the territorial

17 headquarters in Konjic?

18 Q. All right. Thank you very much for answering my

19 questions. Since you had an apartment in Konjic, did

20 you go to Konjic in April and May?

21 A. In May certainly not, but in April I think that we still

22 went to school. I do not know until what date. I do

23 not remember when the school stopped. I think it was in

24 April 1992. I continued going to school up until the

25 day the tuition ended.

Page 1737

1 Q. So you did not go to Konjic in May?

2 A. No, I did not.

3 Q. Mr Draganic, you stated before this court how many

4 shells fell in a certain period of time on Donje Selo;

5 is that correct?

6 A. Yes. I only said roughly speaking. I did not give an

7 exact number.

8 Q. Were you aware of what was happening in Konjic and that

9 at that time Konjic was shelled?

10 A. Yes, Konjic was shelled.

11 Q. Since you were able to recognise your town and you lived

12 in that town, you were also able to recognise some of

13 the most important parts of that town?

14 A. Which parts of the town do you mean?

15 Q. I mean the town centre.

16 A. I probably can recognise them.

17 Q. I would like to ask you, Mr Draganic, to help me

18 identify some parts of the town, and I would, therefore,

19 like to ask the technical service to play tape Number

20 7. I apologise. Let me tell you immediately that this

21 is the tape that was used from the evidence provided to

22 us by the Prosecutor, MA and war in B&H?

23 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, may I object. I have several

24 objections but the main one would be relevance. The

25 prosecution is certainly willing to stipulate that

Page 1738

1 Konjic was shelled and, in fact, we have never denied

2 that. Rather than engage in a time-consuming showing of

3 videos, this witness has already stated that he was not

4 in Konjic in May when apparently it was shelled, and so

5 to have this witness identify buildings I think is

6 really just a waste of time, particularly when we are

7 not contesting that Konjic was shelled.

8 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, this Trial

9 Chamber is hearing the examination-in-chief and the

10 cross-examination because the Trial Chamber has to have

11 knowledge of the evidence, and I am happy that the

12 Prosecutor is aware of what was happening in Konjic and

13 around it. However, we would like the Trial Chamber to

14 inspect the evidence and for the witness to recognise

15 certain facts that we deem to be relevant for the

16 defence. We want all this to be presented before this

17 Trial Chamber, and I would like to ask the Chamber to

18 allow me to do that. The witness has said that he

19 should be able to recognise some of the vital parts of

20 the town of Konjic.

21 JUDGE JAN: But how would that help you? It has been

22 admitted the town had been shelled and it is admitted

23 certain parts must have been destroyed. So how does

24 that help you?

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Short of transporting everyone to the

Page 1739

1 scene -- I suppose that is what you are trying to do,

2 taking everyone to Konjic. Nobody is disputing that it

3 was shelled and that things were damaged. In fact, the

4 extent of damage perhaps does not reflect on what

5 happened in Celebici. It has nothing to do with it.

6 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, it has

7 bearing.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It might suit your emotion to get it

9 on but I do not think it has anything to do with the

10 trial.

11 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, just one

12 sentence, if I may.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can say something.

14 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): The defence even before

15 the commencement of the trial had certain suggestions

16 whereby we wanted to end the proceedings in the Celebici

17 prison. The prosecution is not dealing with just these

18 issues. My client is charged with much wider

19 responsibility than the direct act of the offences

20 committed in Celebici, and it is very important for the

21 defence of my client. We will have an opportunity in

22 the cross-examination and especially in presentation of

23 our evidence to show all the other relevant places,

24 Bradina, Pazaric, Tarcin, and all the other places where

25 my client participated in certain events. This is the

Page 1740

1 reason why I ask the Trial Chamber to allow us to have

2 this witness, who has knowledge of these facts, to

3 identify certain parts of the town. All this -- now we

4 are talking about events in the early May and the

5 incriminated events are in May.

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think we will allow it. Play it and

7 let us watch.

8 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you very much.

9 I would now like to ask the technical service to show

10 tape Number 7. Thank you, your Honours.

11 (Videotape played)

12 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Technical service,

13 I need tape Number 7. All right. Tape Number 7. Yes.

14 This is tape Number 7 that you just started showing us.

15 A. There is no image here. I haven't got an image.

16 Q. I apologise. The witness does not have the image.

17 A. I have got it. I have got the image on the screen now.

18 Q. Would you please repeat the tape Number 7. Thank you

19 very much. Mr Draganic, you recognised Konjic?

20 A. Yes, I recognised Prkanj. That's yes, the fire

21 station. That is the old part of Konjic.

22 Q. Yes. You also recognised that this happened on 6th May

23 1992. That is the date inscribed on the tape?

24 A. I did not pay any attention to the date.

25 Q. We can play the tape again, but I think that was the

Page 1741

1 date inscribed on the tape. If it is correct that it

2 was 6th May, can you tell me is it fifteen days before

3 the events in Cerici?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So Konjic -- that is the way that Konjic looked in early

6 May?

7 A. I did not see it. I only saw the video footage now, but

8 I did not see it with my own eyes on the 5th or 6th May.

9 Q. Very well. Thank you very much. You confirmed when

10 I asked you that Konjic had been shelled, and the events

11 of 6th May comes fifteen days before the events in

12 Cerici?

13 A. Konjic was not shelled from Cerici. You know it very

14 well, just as I know it.

15 Q. I would just like to ask you to answer my question?

16 A. Would you please repeat your question?

17 Q. The question is: was 6th May, when this videotape was

18 made, an event that happened fifteen days before the

19 events in Cerici?

20 MS McHENRY: I object. Asked and answered and I believe

21 the court is certainly able itself to figure out the

22 difference between 5th and 6th May and 21st. This

23 witness does not himself have any knowledge of this and

24 I object to this continued line of questioning and its

25 relevance.

Page 1742

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Any reaction? Even 6th May does not

2 speak of the day when the events that happened Konjic.

3 That was the date the video was taken. There are so

4 many things in this. Too many presumptions and guesses

5 as to what happened.

6 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, it is

7 sufficient for me that the witness was able to identify

8 the town and this is the way the town looked on 6th

9 May. That is what you heard from the witness. That

10 concludes my cross-examination. Thank you very much,

11 your Honours.

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. Ms McHenry, the

13 re-examination?

14 Re-examined by Ms McHenry

15 MS McHENRY: We would just like to clarify that exhibit

16 M1A, if it is not already in evidence, should be

17 admitted into evidence.

18 JUDGE JAN: M1A, what is that document?

19 MS McHENRY: That is the video that the defence counsel has

20 just shown to the witness.

21 THE REGISTRAR: I do not think it is yet evidence. We will

22 make it exhibit D11/1.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It was not tendered, was it?

24 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Only for identification

25 purposes. This time round this exhibit is here only for

Page 1743

1 recognising.

2 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I must object. If it is relevant

3 and he has recognised it, which is why she said she

4 showed it to him, it should be in evidence.

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It should be tendered. It should be

6 in evidence as part of his testimony, because if he has

7 to recognise anything, he has to recognise it

8 somewhere.

9 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, in that

10 case I would like to suggest that this exhibit be

11 accepted as Defence Exhibit.

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is admitted as a Defence Exhibit.

13 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, I will

14 have to apologise to you. It is clear that I am

15 gradually learning the technique of this type of

16 examination, so I apologise for sometimes making some

17 mistakes in the way I present things. I will try to

18 avoid that in the future.

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You do not have to apologise. You are

20 not familiar with this procedure. Everybody knows. It

21 is not even that of your background. It is nothing

22 against you at all. There is nothing seriously to

23 apologise for.

24 JUDGE JAN: In fact, you are doing a very good job.

25 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you very much,

Page 1744

1 your Honours.

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. Any re-examination?

3 MS McHENRY: Yes, your Honour, we do with respect to this

4 witness.

5 Sir, you stated before in cross-examination that

6 you had been involved in a scuffle prior to being in

7 Celebici with several persons. Was Mr Landzo involved

8 in the scuffle?

9 A. Yes, he was.

10 Q. Now, the incident that you described in

11 cross-examination when you were being hurried back into

12 the hangar by some guards who were afraid that Pavo

13 Mucic was coming, if you remember, who were the guards

14 who had been beating you and then hurried you back into

15 the hangar?

16 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to object to her

17 leading form of the question. He never said anything

18 about beating at this time. If she wants to let him

19 explain it, that is fine. This is re-direct, not

20 cross-examination by the prosecution.

21 MS McHENRY: May I respond?

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, do.

23 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, it is perfectly appropriate

24 for me to direct the witness's attention something he

25 said during many hours of cross-examination. He had

Page 1745

1 said that he was being beaten outside a hangar. A car

2 came. The guards were afraid it was Pavo and he was

3 hurried back to the hangar. My question in a very

4 non-leading way is with respect to this incident, which

5 I believe the transcript had reflected he has already

6 testified about, who, if he remembers, were the guards.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually the main object of

8 re-examination is to clear ambiguities even after

9 cross-examination. If there is any ambiguity arising

10 from cross-examination of the witness, you are entitled

11 to clear it.

12 MS McMURREY: Then my next objection is asked and

13 answered. It is in the transcript and in the record.

14 He explained that and said it yesterday.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I do not know about his answer to what

16 counsel has just asked. The answer to the

17 re-examination is that what you are suggesting has been

18 given.

19 MS McMURREY: Yes, your Honour, it has been given.

20 MS McHENRY: If so, in all frankness --

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let us hear your question.

22 MS McHENRY: My question is: The incident you described in

23 cross-examination where you were hurried back into the

24 hangar because the guards were afraid Pavo was coming,

25 if you remember, who were the guards who had been

Page 1746

1 beating you and who hurried you back into the hangar?

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: There is no such answer.

3 MS McMURREY: Your Honour, on his direct examination he

4 described that whole scenario.

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please, he has not answered this

6 particular question.

7 MS McMURREY: Okay.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let us hear your answer to that.

9 A. The guards were Zenga and Osmo Dedic. I know that for

10 sure. I think there was a third person there as well,

11 Lisko. I am not sure about the third name but I am sure

12 that Landzo nicknamed Zenga was there and Osmo, Osman

13 Dedic were there.

14 Q. If you remember, when approximately was this beating?

15 What month or how long had you been in the camp? A

16 rough idea, if you can?

17 A. I believe that it happened in July, but I do not know

18 exactly when.

19 Q. You indicated that you heard from others when you first

20 arrived that a person named Rale was in charge of the

21 camp. According to what you --

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I am not sure this arose in

23 cross-examination.

24 MS McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. I believe it was Mr Greaves

25 who -- your Honour, I can find it in the transcript if

Page 1747

1 you give me a minute but I am sure in cross-examination

2 he was asked about the fact that when he first arrived

3 at the camp he heard someone named Rale was commander.

4 JUDGE JAN: Not commander of the camp but of the forces

5 which had come to his village.

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He gave an answer, so it was not

7 ambiguous. That is what I mean. You can only learn

8 something on matters which are still ambiguous.

9 MS McHENRY: Yes, but I have a follow-up question to

10 clarify and give an accurate -- I have not even asked my

11 question yet, so maybe --

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You have. You were trying to find out

13 who was the head. This is what you were trying to do.

14 The question about Rale he has answered.

15 MS McHENRY: I am sorry, your Honour. I may have

16 misphrased my question. My question: your information,

17 for how long was Rale commander according to your

18 information.

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Frankly I keep saying you do not start

20 another examination-in-chief. All you need to do is to

21 re-examine on matters which are still in doubt arising

22 from cross-examination. That is all you are entitled to

23 do.

24 MS McHENRY: Yes, your Honour.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Do not lead any evidence-in-chief.

Page 1748

1 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I believe it is certainly my

2 right to bring out issues that are needed to give a fair

3 description. If I may just finish, this witness has

4 testified in cross-examination that when he first

5 arrived at the camp Rale was commander.

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes.

7 MS McHENRY: I would like to bring out how long it was that

8 Rale was commander, because my belief is -- I can tell

9 your Honours my belief and why it is relevant and it

10 will then explain why it is necessary for this small bit

11 of information to be clarified.

12 MR GREAVES: It sounds to me as though counsel is about to

13 try to give evidence herself and that is of course not

14 permissible.

15 MS McHENRY: That is why I stopped.

16 MR GREAVES: Thank you.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: No, you do not lead any evidence even

18 through him in re-examination, even through the witness

19 during the re-examination. You do not lead new

20 evidence.

21 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I believe when a new --

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: This is what you are trying to do

23 now. You are not clearing any ambiguities arising out

24 of cross-examination.

25 MS McHENRY: Okay. I will go on to my next question. Is

Page 1749

1 it the case that your information was Rale was commander

2 the entire time you were at the camp.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What type of question is that? It has

4 no bearing at all.

5 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I believe, given that the defence

6 counsel has in an effort to assist itself brought out

7 hearsay about who he heard was commander, I believe I am

8 allowed to explore that issue once they have opened it.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I am saying if he had given an answer

10 which is straightforward and not ambiguous, that is the

11 end of the matter.

12 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I believe that it is ambiguous as

13 to exactly when it was Rale was commander.

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: No, it is no. Nobody queried the

15 period. It was not queried.

16 MS McHENRY: Sir, with respect to your testimony on

17 cross-examination that you were sometimes aware from his

18 motorcycle or from the guards that Mr Mucic was in the

19 camp, can you tell us approximately when it was that you

20 first became aware that Mr Mucic was present in the

21 camp; not the exact day but approximately, if you can?

22 A. I do not know for sure, but more or less somewhere in

23 July.

24 Q. When you asked Mr Mucic if you could receive treatment

25 for your wounds, did he ask you how you received those

Page 1750

1 wounds?

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Frankly, why are you repeating all

3 these questions? Is it merely because someone has

4 cross-examined, you must re-examine on that issue?

5 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I believe that defence counsel

6 has been given a very wide latitude.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please slow down a bit?

8 MS McHENRY: We have rarely needed the occasion to even

9 engage in any re-direct examination. I believe --

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I do not know about your expression

11 re-direct. There is no such thing in our rules.

12 MS McHENRY: Re-examination, I am sorry.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: When you are re-examining, you are

14 confined to what arose out of cross-examination.

15 MS McHENRY: Yes, your Honour.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Do not lead new evidence. Even what

17 arose has to be ambiguous for you to deal with it. It

18 is not enough because someone has cross-examined you

19 must re-examine. It is not sufficient.

20 JUDGE JAN: In fact, you should have asked this question in

21 direct examination, because now you are opening up

22 another field and there will be cross-examination there.

23 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I believe that I am allowed to --

24 your Honour, I will go on.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Until we hear the nature of your

Page 1751

1 question ...

2 MS McHENRY: Sir, how do you know that Pavo Mucic was in

3 Austria in July during the period when you did --

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Why do you want him to say how he

5 knew?

6 MS McHENRY: Because, your Honour, I think it is relevant

7 who he heard it from, if he heard it from guards or if

8 he heard from --

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You are cross-examining your own

10 witness.

11 MS McHENRY: I am not cross-examining him. I think it is

12 relevant to clarify the ambiguity.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You mean the time that he was in

14 Austria?

15 MS McHENRY: I think it is ambiguous because the

16 reliability of this information may depend on how he

17 heard it.

18 MR GREAVES: That sounds like cross-examining your own

19 witness to me.

20 MS McHENRY: I am not suggesting that he was or was not but

21 I think it is relevant.

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The witness has told you he was and

23 I think that is sufficient.

24 MS McHENRY: Sir, do you know when approximately it was in

25 July when you came to know that Mr Mucic was in

Page 1759

1 (2.30pm)

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Can we have your next witness? The

3 last witness has been discharged now except you need him

4 any further. There is no reason for him to remain, he

5 can be discharged?

6 MR TURONE: No, your Honour. We now call Ms Milojka Antic

7 as a witness, your Honour.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Bring the witness in.

9 MS McMURREY: I apologise to the court for being late.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is accepted.

11 (Witness entered court)

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can sit down. You can take your

13 seat.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Could you please take the oath which is

15 written down on that paper, please? Would you stand up,

16 please?

17 Mrs Milojka Antic (sworn)

18 Examined by Mr Turone

19 MR TURONE: May I proceed, your Honour?

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.

21 MR TURONE: Thank you. Would you please state your full

22 name?

23 A. Milojka Antic.

24 Q. Mrs Antic, just for the record, to be clear, am I

25 correct that you have chosen not to seek any

Page 1760

1 confidentiality protection regarding your identity for

2 your testimony here as a witness?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What is your date of birth, Mrs Antic?

5 A. 18th August 1948.

6 Q. What is your ethnic background?

7 A. Yugoslav.

8 Q. But inside the former Yugoslavia your ethnic group,

9 I mean?

10 A. Serbian.

11 Q. Where were you born?

12 A. I was born in the village of Idbar in the municipality

13 of Konjic.

14 Q. Mrs Antic, what kind of schools did you attend?

15 A. At four grades of elementary school.

16 Q. What is your profession?

17 A. I worked as an ordinary worker with four years of

18 elementary school.

19 Q. Where did you live at the beginning of May 1992?

20 A. I lived in the village of Idbar, where I was born.

21 Q. Who lived with you in your house?

22 A. My mother, my old mother lived with me. We were the

23 only ones in the house.

24 Q. Was Idbar a village with Croatian or Muslim or Serbian

25 majority?

Page 1761

1 A. There were Serbs, Muslims and Croats.

2 Q. But I mean what was the majority? Was that a Muslim

3 majority?

4 A. There was a Muslim majority.

5 Q. Can you say approximately how many inhabitants did Idbar

6 have at that time?

7 A. I can only tell you the number of households. I don't

8 know the number of inhabitants. There may have been

9 about 130 Muslim households. As for us, the Serbs, 13

10 households, and there were less Croats, maybe four or

11 five households.

12 Q. Okay. Thank you. Can you say which is approximately

13 the distance between Idbar and Konjic town?

14 A. I think it's about 11 kms from Konjic to Idbar.

15 Q. Mrs Antic, was there a time when Idbar was affected

16 somehow by armed conflict in May 1992?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you say when?

19 A. On 9th March.

20 Q. Can you say briefly what happened that day in Idbar?

21 A. On 9th May I was sitting with my mother, who was ill, my

22 aunt, my sister-in-law, my brother and some more

23 neighbours, who were having coffee at my place. Then we

24 heard some shooting around the village. We did not know

25 what was happening, so we got out into the yard, and we

Page 1762

1 listened to the shooting that was getting closer and

2 closer to our house -- to the houses, in fact. We

3 stayed there. We waited until two unknown men in

4 camouflage uniforms appeared. They had weapons in their

5 hands. They told us that we should stay where we were

6 and to wait.

7 So we stood there. They approached us, and one of

8 them stayed with us to guard us. The other one left.

9 He went on from house to house. He was probably looking

10 for people, for some particular people. That man who

11 stayed with us to guard us told us that we should

12 accompany him to the main road. We were in the village

13 right next to the main road and there was -- this area

14 was paved. When we -- when he brought us there we

15 encountered three neighbours. They were already there

16 waiting. These are Izedin Subasic, Mirso Nujic and

17 Armin Nujic and the person who brought us was from

18 Konjic, but I did not know his name.

19 So they rounded us up there and I asked my

20 neighbours, since I thought they would help me, to take

21 me back home to my mother, since my mother stayed alone

22 in the house and she was ill, or at least to allow me to

23 take her with me, or to be allowed to go back home. My

24 neighbours did not allow me. So I started to cry and

25 I begged them, but they did not give me any answer,

Page 1763

1 whereas this person from Konjic, whose name I do not

2 know, he allowed me to go back to my home. I said that

3 I did not dare to go back alone. I was afraid that

4 somebody may think that I had escaped and I was afraid

5 that I would be killed, so he escorted me all the way to

6 my house, to where my mother was.

7 Q. Yes. Go ahead slowly, please.

8 A. So I was there with my mother for a short while and then

9 all the women came back and on that day nine men were

10 taken away, the men from my village. Among them was my

11 brother.

12 Q. Can you say your brother's name?

13 A. Yes, I can. Cedo Antic.

14 Q. Did you know or did you get to know where was your

15 brother brought?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you ever get to know that later?

18 A. I did not understand the question.

19 Q. When your brother was taken away with other men did you

20 ever get to know where he was brought?

21 A. Is it why? Is that the question? Why he was taken.

22 Q. Where?

23 A. Where. No, we did not know where he was taken. After a

24 month we learned that they were in Celebici, that they

25 were detained in Celebici.

Page 1764

1 Q. How did you get to know after one month that they were

2 detained in Celebici?

3 A. We asked. We did not know what had happened to them.

4 So we asked where they were and what happened to him and

5 a neighbour told us that they were detained in Celebici

6 in the camp, in the Celebici camp.

7 Q. Did you ever visit your brother in Celebici?

8 A. Yes. On one day when this neighbour of mine told me

9 that they were in Celebici, I went there one day.

10 I took him some clothes for him to change and when

11 I came there I encountered a guard at the gate. I asked

12 him for my brother. He did not give me any answer, so

13 I asked him if I would learn anything about him and if

14 I could hand over the clothes, since he had been

15 detained for a month there without any change of

16 clothes. He told me that he was not allowed to do so.

17 He said that he should ask Delic if he was allowed to do

18 that. So I waited there for a while and then he ordered

19 me to go home, that he couldn't give me any assistance

20 on that day. So I went back home on that day.

21 Q. Do you know, by the way, the name of this guard with

22 whom you had talked on that occasion?

23 A. I did not know his name. His last name was Masic, so

24 I did not know his first name.

25 Q. Was that the only time when you tried to visit your

Page 1765

1 brother in Celebici?

2 A. Yes. That was the first time that I visited --

3 Q. The first time. Do you mean there was a second time

4 when you tried to visit your brother?

5 A. The second time was on 15th June 1992, when an old woman

6 from the village told me that they allowed for the

7 clothes to be brought and that we could, therefore, go

8 there and try to give them the change of clothes, and on

9 that day, on 15th June, I went with three other old

10 women to Celebici to try and hand over the clothes for

11 them to change.

12 When we arrived there, there were many other women

13 who had come to visit their relatives. We waited there

14 for a long time until we were able to hand over the

15 clothes. When we were handing the clothes over, all

16 this had to be searched and they had to check what we

17 brought. If there was any food or some other articles,

18 we were not allowed to do that. They only accepted the

19 clothes. When we gave the clothes this was received by

20 Muharem Masic and a guard stood next to him. This was a

21 neighbour of mine, my next-door-neighbour. Izo Cosic

22 was his name. Then the four of them gave them the

23 clothes and we went back to our homes to Idbar.

24 Q. Mrs Antic, did you ask permission to see your brother on

25 this occasion?

Page 1766

1 A. Yes, I did. I asked him. I asked my neighbour Cosic.

2 I thought that he may be able to assist me to see my

3 brother since I didn't even believe that he was alive at

4 all. He told me that I couldn't, and he refused to talk

5 to me any more. So I wasn't able to learn anything.

6 When I came back my mother and my sister-in-law, that

7 was my brother's wife, they asked me about him and I did

8 not know what to tell them. I did not know if he was

9 alive or not. I just said he have received the

10 clothes. That was the only thing I knew and the only

11 thing I was able to tell them.

12 Q. Did the guard tell you why you were not able to visit

13 your brother?

14 A. He didn't give me any answer to that. He just said that

15 we should go straight home, so that we left the area and

16 went home. He didn't tell us anything as to the reason

17 why.

18 Q. Was there a time when you were also arrested?

19 A. On the same day, when we came back home, the four of us,

20 from Celebici, so I came home, I didn't know anything

21 about my brother, whether he was alive or not. So we

22 sat down and we discussed this and had coffee, and

23 I went to my garden to do some work there. Then my

24 mother went out with her cane into the garden. I helped

25 her to get out and she then sat next to me. Then three

Page 1767

1 men, three soldiers appeared. My garden was close to

2 the house. They entered the yard, the three soldiers.

3 One of them was a neighbour of mine, Zaim Cosic,

4 nicknamed Paja, and two soldiers who were unknown to

5 me. They told me that I should accompany them

6 somewhere. Since I was in my garden and I was quite

7 dirty -- I was wearing a tracksuit and it was all torn

8 and dirty -- I asked my neighbour if I could go home

9 inside the house to change, because I didn't want to go

10 anywhere so dirty. He did not allow me to do that. He

11 said that I wouldn't be detained for a long time, that

12 I would be questioned and that I would then go back

13 home.

14 If I can just go back to -- this is something that

15 I left out. When I talked to my mother and my

16 sister-in-law about my brother, how I wasn't able to see

17 him and how I didn't know anything about him, we again

18 heard some shooting in the village. Again two uniformed

19 men appeared at our gate. They wore camouflage uniforms

20 and they had rifles. They were leading a neighbour of

21 ours, Milorad Jovanovic, with them. They came to my

22 gate, to my yard, and they asked for me. I left the

23 house. I stood in the yard at the gate, and they told

24 me that they should enter the property and search my

25 house. They said that there was some kind of a radio

Page 1768

1 station or a transmitter in my house. Since I didn't

2 know anything about that, I was there and they told me

3 to take them inside the house. I went inside with

4 them. They drove me out of the house while Armin Nujic

5 guarded me in front of the house in the yard and Milorad

6 Jovanovic, and as for Dzevad Alibasic, he was searching

7 my house. He was looking for the transmitter.

8 Q. That happened a little while before they came to arrest

9 you; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that is correct. I had left that out. I forget

11 that.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. So they searched the house. They didn't find anything.

14 So Dzevad Alibasic left the house and they went on.

15 Milorad Jovanovic went with them, so they got out of my

16 yard. That's when I went to the garden to dig the

17 potatoes. My mother was there with me. I had led her

18 out into the garden to watch me while I worked, and that

19 was when the three soldiers appeared, the soldiers

20 I mentioned a little while ago, Zaim Cosic, nicknamed

21 Paja, and two unknown soldiers. This was when Paja told

22 me to accompany them. That's when I asked him if

23 I could go inside the house and change, since I was very

24 dirty. I didn't want to leave the house in that

25 condition. My tracksuit was all torn and dirty. He did

Page 1769

1 not allow me. He said that I -- that it wouldn't take

2 long, that I would be back home soon.

3 Q. Mrs Antic, can you say whether these persons who

4 apprehended you had any uniforms?

5 A. Yes. They were all in camouflage uniforms and they all

6 were armed. They carried weapons in their hands.

7 Q. Were there any insignia on their uniforms?

8 A. There were some insignia, but I did not observe that.

9 I did not dare to look, so I wasn't able to discern the

10 insignia. Since these were all my neighbours it was an

11 unpleasant situation, and I didn't want to look. So

12 I did not remember the insignia.

13 Q. Were you told why you were being arrested?

14 A. I asked my neighbour Zaim when they were taking me, and

15 he said that there was a transmitter at my place.

16 Q. Did you have any weapon at the time of your arrest?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you know whether your brother or anybody else in your

19 family had a weapon?

20 A. I don't know about that.

21 Q. Did you in any way take part in the defence of the

22 Serbian houses in your village?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Can you approximately say how many persons, if any, in

25 your village were armed at the outbreak of the conflict?

Page 1770

1 A. No. This is not something that I know.

2 Q. Now, Mrs Antic, where were you brought after you were

3 arrested?

4 A. When I went with the three soldiers, I encountered at

5 the main road, they had rounded up three men and a

6 woman. The fourth was Milorad, who had been with the

7 people who had been to my house. So that there were

8 four men and one woman and myself. I was the sixth

9 person to be brought there. When I was brought there

10 I encountered them there.

11 Q. When you say "there", Mrs Antic, where were you brought

12 actually after your arrest?

13 A. They brought us to the main road where they rounded us

14 up the first time, when they had taken us away. This is

15 the main road. When I say the main road, that's the

16 blacked up road leading through the village, through the

17 entire village. That was the main street, the main

18 road, and that's where they rounded us up. There was

19 already a car waiting for us. So that's where they

20 searched the men. If they had any documents, these

21 documents were seized, and then they ordered us to get

22 into the car that was already there waiting.

23 Q. After that where did they bring you with this car, if

24 anywhere?

25 A. When we got in that car, the car went to Celebici. As

Page 1771

1 we started there was a small car behind us. It was

2 driven also by a next-door-neighbour of mine, Sefik

3 Omerovic. He escorted the car in which we were. He

4 followed us and two unknown soldiers with us on the car,

5 on the vehicle and Izo Cosic, the third person who was

6 with them, he went back. So we were escorted by just

7 these two soldiers to Celebici, to the camp, where we

8 were brought.

9 Q. Mrs Antic, can you say approximately at what time of the

10 day did you arrive at Celebici?

11 A. It was somewhere in the afternoon. I do not know

12 exactly when, more towards the late afternoon, early

13 evening, but I do not know exactly the time.

14 Q. Would you now --

15 JUDGE JAN: You are just talking about 9th May.

16 MR TURONE: Pardon?

17 JUDGE JAN: We are just talking about 9th May.

18 MR TURONE: No, this is not any more 9th May?

19 A. No, it was 15th June.

20 JUDGE JAN: I beg your pardon. All right.

21 MR TURONE: You are welcome. Would you now say in some

22 detail what happened as soon as you arrived at

23 Celebici? I mean, on the very first day of your arrival

24 there, in the afternoon of 15th June?

25 A. When we drove into the Celebici camp, the car pulled up

Page 1772

1 and some soldiers came. They were looking us who were

2 in the car, and they did not let us get off. They were

3 saying that a person named Delic had arrived. We did

4 not know who he was. They were waiting for him to

5 come.

6 Then he came there, that person, and he took a

7 pencil and a piece of paper and he started to write down

8 our first and last names. When he made the list of our

9 names he told us to get off the car. We got off. Then

10 he separated men from us women. The men were taken in

11 one direction and a soldier took us two women into

12 another direction. He took us into a room where we

13 found some other women.

14 Q. Yes. Just a moment, Mrs Antic. When you say about

15 Delic, how did you get to know his name? I mean, how

16 did you get to know the name of this person?

17 A. We only heard from those soldiers who were there to

18 watch us while we were in the car. They only watch and

19 said: "We are waiting for Delic to arrive". That is how

20 we learned about it but at that time we did not know who

21 that man Delic was. We only heard the surname from

22 them. We only later -- learned later on who Delic was.

23 Q. What did you learn later on?

24 A. We learned later on that Delic was the Commander of that

25 camp that existed there in Celebici.

Page 1773

1 Q. All right, Mrs Antic. You were saying something. In

2 which building of the Celebici camp were you taken?

3 A. Us two women, we were taken into a building. We called

4 it the reception building. It was situated -- located

5 near the gate, towards the entrance of the camp.

6 Q. You said there were already other people inside?

7 A. Yes. When that guard brought us to that building we

8 found four women there, four women from Bradina, and a

9 fifth woman was Grozdana. Then the two of us arrived,

10 so we stayed there with them and the guard went back.

11 He went out of that building.

12 Q. Yes. Did anybody interrogate you on your arrival at

13 Celebici?

14 A. We sat down for a while, maybe for a short period of

15 time. I do not know exactly for how long. A guard came

16 to the door and he said to me and to this other woman,

17 Ljubica, who was there with me, he said: "These two

18 women who came only a while ago, could they please go

19 out?" We went out then in front of the door. There

20 stood four men wearing camouflage uniforms. Some of

21 them had weapons and I am not sure whether all of them

22 were armed. Then they started interrogating us. They

23 asked us also for our first and our last names. They

24 asked us where we were from.

25 Q. Do you know who were these people?

Page 1774

1 A. One person, the one person I knew best, was somebody who

2 used to work in the same company as I did. He was a

3 guard and his name is Sejo Mustafic. There was Delic,

4 there was Mucic and there was Delalic there. First Pavo

5 started to question me, Pavo Mucic. He asked me where I

6 was from, who was my family. He asked me where my

7 husband was, and upon that I answered that I was not

8 married, that I had no husband. He said to Delic: "This

9 is just the right type for you." Delalic asked me about

10 Srecko Antic. We had the same surname and he asked me:

11 "And where is Srecko?" Then they did not ask much more

12 that evening.

13 Q. How did you learn the names of these people that you

14 just mentioned? I mean, how did you get to know the

15 names of these persons, particularly Mucic and Delalic?

16 JUDGE JAN: Delic or Delalic, you said?

17 MR TURONE: She mentioned Delic, Mucic and Delalic.

18 A. Delalic, yes. As for Delalic, Sejo Mustafic told me

19 about him several days later, that that had been

20 Delalic, because I did not know him from before and

21 I never saw him afterwards. That was the first and the

22 last time I saw him in the camp. So Sejo Mustafic told

23 me that that was Delalic.

24 Q. What about Mucic? How did you learn his name? How did

25 you get to know that this man was Mucic, the one who

Page 1775

1 specifically questioned you?

2 A. I heard about him when I was there later on. I heard

3 about Mucic, that he was one of the heads of the camp,

4 but I did not see him. I mean, the second time I saw

5 him was only when he came to release the women from

6 Zukici that spent one evening with us. That is how

7 I learned that he was Pavo and that he was some kind of

8 a chief there.

9 Q. Did you get to know also the first name of Delalic?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Do you know in which capacity did they ask you those

12 questions? I mean, which role did they have for

13 interrogating you?

14 A. No, I do not know anything about that.

15 Q. Was the other woman also interrogated in the same

16 occasion and place? I mean, which questions she

17 received?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What did they ask her?

20 A. They asked her also her name, her surname, whether she

21 had a husband, whether she had any sons, but her son and

22 her husband were also brought at the same time as we

23 were to the camp. So she was asked which one was her

24 husband and which one was her son.

25 Q. Exactly who was the one who asked these questions to

Page 1776

1 this lady?

2 A. Mucic.

3 Q. Now, Mrs Antic, did anything happen after that and

4 during the first night after your arrival in Celebici?

5 A. They ordered us to go inside. We went inside and that

6 night it was dark. We were not allowed to put the

7 lights on. Somebody came to the door and opened the

8 door and said -- he called me out. He said my name,

9 first and last, and told me to go out.

10 Q. Who was this person?

11 A. At that time I did not know. When the person was still

12 at the door and while I was still inside the room I did

13 not know who he was. Yet when I asked him whether

14 I could stay in and leave everything for tomorrow and

15 then go out, he told me: "No" and said I had to go out

16 straightaway because the Commander was looking for me in

17 order to question me.

18 When I came to the door, I had to go out.

19 I recognised him. His name was Muharem Masic. I asked

20 him where he was taking me and he told me that the

21 Commander needed to question me. Then he took me into

22 another building.

23 Q. What happened then?

24 A. He took me into that building. There was a very large

25 corridor with many doors. He brought me in front of a

Page 1777

1 door and then he opened the door and took me into that

2 room, where we found Delic, who was sitting there.

3 Q. Do you know which building was this?

4 A. That building was not far away from the building in

5 which we were placed. That was probably the building --

6 I mean, that was the building with their command.

7 JUDGE JAN: Ask her to indicate it on the plan?

8 MR TURONE: I beg your pardon.

9 JUDGE JAN: Ask her to indicate this on this model.

10 MR TURONE: I will reach that later, your Honour, if you

11 allow me?

12 JUDGE JAN: Please do.

13 MR TURONE: So you said you arrived to a given room inside

14 this building, and can you go ahead with your account?

15 A. Yes. Then Masic returned and I stayed there. Delic

16 started to interrogate me. He questioned me again about

17 my first name, my last name, where I was from, why I was

18 brought there. I did not know what to answer. He

19 started to curse. He said that the Cetniks were guilty

20 for everything that was going on. He started to curse

21 my Cetnik mother. He told me that unless I did whatever

22 he asked from me that he would send me to Grude, where a

23 Croatian camp was, or else I will be shot. I started to

24 cry. He ordered me to take my clothes off. I was

25 constantly imploring and crying and asking him not to

Page 1778

1 touch me, as I was a sick woman. To no avail. He

2 started to threaten me with his rifle, saying that he

3 would kill me. He pointed the rifle at me. I got

4 scared. I was afraid he would kill me. So I had to do

5 what he asked from me. I had to take my clothes off as

6 he pointed the rifle on me, on the upper part of my

7 body.

8 Q. Mrs Antic, was the light on in the room?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did Delic wear a uniform in that occasion?

11 A. Yes, he did.

12 Q. Please go ahead in your account. What happened right

13 after that?

14 A. He asked me then why did I not dress more nicely, as

15 I came all torn and dirty from my garden. He asked me

16 why I wasn't dressed nicely. I did not know what to

17 answer. I said: "I was not allowed to go into my

18 house". Then he threatened me. He ordered me to go

19 into the bed and to lie down. Then he raped me. He

20 ordered me to take my tracksuit off. I had a jumper,

21 which I also had to take off. Then I had to go on the

22 bed.

23 Q. Sorry to ask you that, but could you please give us some

24 more details about the rape. Did he -- can you give us

25 some more details on the very event of the rape, if you

Page 1779

1 don't mind?

2 A. I then had to climb in the bed. Then he took his belt

3 off. On his belt he had a pistol. So he took some of

4 his clothes off and climbed into the bed and then he

5 started to rape me.

6 Q. Mrs Antic, did he penetrate your vagina?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did he ejaculate?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did he do that inside your body?

11 A. No. On the lower part of my stomach.

12 Q. Can you say approximately how long did all this last?

13 A. I do not know for how long. It seemed very long to me.

14 I don't know. When I was returned back to our room we

15 did not have any watch. We were not allowed to put any

16 lights on. I don't know how long it lasted but too long

17 for me.

18 Q. Did he say anything else to you during the rape?

19 A. He only threatened me, cursed me and he threatened me,

20 saying that I would be killed and so ...

21 Q. What happened right after that?

22 A. After that he got off -- got up and got off the bed. He

23 put his trousers on, went out of the door and told me to

24 get dressed. I got up and got dressed. Then Muharem

25 Masic came in and he brought me back to the room where

Page 1780

1 we women were staying.

2 Q. Did you say anything to the other women?

3 A. No. I did not say anything about that. I was all in

4 tears. They could not see because it was dark. I only

5 said: "Oh, fuck you, God, in case you exist. Why did

6 you not protect me from this?" I thought it would help

7 me to feel a bit more at ease. That was the only thing

8 I said.

9 Q. Madam, did you have occasion to see Delic again the

10 following day?

11 A. The following day he came at the door. He opened the

12 door and he only said from the door -- he asked me how

13 I was and how I felt. I was looking right in front of

14 me and started to cry straightaway. He said: "Why are

15 you crying? This will not be your last time".

16 Q. Anything else?

17 A. No.

18 Q. What was your reaction?

19 A. I felt so miserably, I was constantly crying. I was

20 like crazy, as if I had gone crazy.

21 Q. You said this happens, this visit happens at the door.

22 Which door?

23 A. He came at the door of that room where we women were

24 staying.

25 Q. You mean at the reception building?

Page 1781

1 A. Yes. I was taken back to that room in the reception

2 building. That room where other women were also, so

3 I was returned to those other women into that room, into

4 the reception building.

5 Q. By the way, Madam, how long did you stay in this

6 reception building at Celebici?

7 A. I stayed until 31st August.

8 Q. How long did the four women from Bradina stay?

9 A. The four women from Bradina, which I found thereupon my

10 arrival, when Ljubica and myself arrived, they only

11 stayed there for one night and the following day they

12 were released to go home. So only Ljubica, myself and

13 Grozdana remained there.

14 Q. Who came and picked them up, I mean the four women from

15 Bradina from the reception building when they were

16 released?

17 A. A guard came to the door and he told them they could go

18 home. So they prepared themselves, went out and I did

19 not see anything.

20 Q. So you only saw a guard coming to pick them up and you

21 do not know --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You do not know which guard was that?

24 A. No. No, I do not know, because they were constantly

25 changing. They were always new guards, so I do not know

Page 1782

1 who that guard was.

2 Q. How long did Ljubica Jovanovic stay at Celebici?

3 A. We were brought on 15th June. I think it was a Monday,

4 and she was released on Friday, so she was with us for

5 four days.

6 Q. Who came and picked her up from the reception building

7 when she was released?

8 A. Also a guard, a guard who came and told her she could go

9 home.

10 Q. Madam, did you suffer other sexual assaults after the

11 one you just described?

12 A. Yes. One day it was daylight. Delic came at the door

13 and with a very rough voice he ordered that we had to go

14 into the command building, that we have to wash there,

15 take a bath. We asked not to go there, to have a bath

16 in that other building, that we could do it where we

17 were in the reception building, and he said that we

18 should go there into that building where the command

19 was. Then he came back.

20 Q. You mean only you or both of you?

21 A. Both of us, yes. Myself and Grozdana, because there was

22 nobody else there, just the two of us. He told us that

23 both of us had to go to the building where the command

24 was to have a bath there that day.

25 Q. Just to have of a clear idea immediately, how long did

Page 1783

1 this happen after the first rape approximately?

2 A. I don't know. I couldn't tell you exactly how many days

3 had passed. I don't know.

4 Q. Go ahead in your account of this second sexual assault?

5 A. Delic then closed the door to our room and left and

6 after a short while Muharem Masic came at the door of

7 our room in which we were and he said that we had to go

8 with him to the building where the bathroom was and that

9 we had to have a bath. He said that he had been ordered

10 by Delic to bring us there. We had to go with him. He

11 took us there, to the building where the command was

12 located. He brought us in front of the bathroom and he

13 told Grozdana to get in, to be the first one to take the

14 bath. Grozda got in. She had a bath and she got out.

15 Then he ordered me to get inside. I got in. I started

16 to have my bath and then Muharem got into the bathroom

17 where I was having my bath. I started crying. I was

18 begging him to leave while I was in the bath. He told

19 me that he had to go in to tell me that I had to take a

20 really good bath to wash myself very clearly, very much

21 because some doctors would come to examine us. Then he

22 left the bathroom. So I had my bath and I got dressed

23 and when I left he was waiting for me at the door.

24 Q. He? Who?

25 A. Muharem Masic. He was waiting for me at the door. When

Page 1784

1 I left and encountered Masic, he led me down the same

2 corridor towards that same room in which I had been once

3 before, where I was raped for the first time. He took

4 me there. He opened the door. I saw that it was the

5 same room where I had been raped already. Delic was

6 sitting there. He was sitting at the desk. He was

7 sitting at the desk that was there and when I got in

8 Masic returned. Delic then asked me if I had had a good

9 wash. I immediately started crying. I was afraid that

10 the same thing would happen as the first time: he then

11 ordered me to take off my clothes. I kept saying that

12 I was sick. I was telling him not to touch me. Since

13 he again had a pistol and a rifle I was afraid that he

14 would kill me, so I had to do it. I had to take off my

15 clothes. So when I took off my clothes he told me to

16 get on the bed. Under duress and his threats I got on

17 the bed and then he told me in which way to turn, how to

18 position myself. He told me to turn around and to

19 kneel. He climbed on to the bed then and he started to

20 rape me in my anus. I started to cry. Actually I did

21 not cry. I screamed because it hurt very much. He did

22 not rape me in the anus. He then turned me on to my

23 back and then he raped me.

24 Q. Madam, again did he wear a uniform, Mr Delic?

25 A. Yes. He was always in a uniform and he was always

Page 1785

1 armed.

2 Q. During the rape was he completely undressed?

3 A. No. He would just pull down his trousers. The first

4 time he just took off his shirt and he was in his vest,

5 undershirt, and the second time he just pulled down his

6 trousers. He did not take off all his clothes

7 completely.

8 Q. Did he actually penetrate your anus?

9 A. No. It hurt me very much so he wasn't able to penetrate

10 me fully. I started to bleed. My anus started

11 bleeding, so he let me go, turned me on to my back and

12 then raped me into my vagina.

13 Q. Did he penetrate your vagina?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did he ejaculate?

16 A. Yes, again on my lower abdomen.

17 Q. What happened right after this second rape?

18 A. After the second rape again he called Muharem Masic to

19 take me back to the room, to the reception room, where

20 we were. Grozda was already there. When he took me

21 there, when Muharem Masic took me there to our room

22 I was all cried out. I did not tell Grozda anything.

23 She saw that something had happened to me and I went to

24 the toilet and I put cold compresses on the anus because

25 I was already bleeding. I was very ill. I was crying

Page 1786

1 all the time. So that next day Grozda had to seek a

2 doctor to see me. She asked a guard to ask the

3 Commander whether a guard could come to me because I was

4 so ill. Then one of the guards came and brought two

5 doctors with him. These doctors were also detainees.

6 They were prisoners in the camp. These are Relja

7 Mrkajic and Petko Grubac. So they brought them there.

8 A guard brought them there. They came. They measured

9 my blood pressure and they brought some tranquilisers,

10 some pills. They asked what had happened to me.

11 I couldn't tell them. I couldn't tell anyone about

12 that. So that they gave me those medicines and they

13 went back. In fact, the guard took them back from where

14 he had brought them.

15 Q. Right after the second rape did you realise your anus

16 was bleeding during washing yourself? Did you have

17 another shower after that?

18 A. Yes. I had to go to the toilet often and I realised

19 that my anus was bleeding. I didn't tell Grozda about

20 that. I just put some kind of cold compressions and

21 I asked her to give me some kind of ointment, because

22 she had a bag, a purse with her, and she had some cream

23 in the bag. So I asked her if she had some cream and

24 she gave me something so that I had to apply this cream

25 without telling her what had happened to me.

Page 1787

1 Q. Did you tell her anything at all?

2 A. I did not tell her anything about that. I just told her

3 that this was the first time that I had been with a

4 man. She then told me she assumed what had happened to

5 me and she asked me if I needed pills, the pills that

6 she had been taking. She had been taking them even

7 before the war. These were, I guess the birth control

8 pills.

9 Q. Madam, one question about this second event, about the

10 room in which this happened in the administration

11 building, in the command building. Can you say which

12 part of the camp could you see through the window of the

13 room in which the second rape and actually also the

14 first rape happened?

15 A. The only thing we could see through that window in that

16 room, I could only see the reception building where we

17 were located.

18 Q. Okay. Was this second rape the last sexual assault you

19 suffered in Celebici? Was there any other sexual

20 assault after these ones?

21 A. Yes. Well, there was the third time. It happened in

22 our room in the reception building, where we all were.

23 Q. By whom were you raped this third time?

24 A. Again by the same man who did it twice before, and that

25 was Delic.

Page 1788

1 Q. Now, Mrs Antic, before going ahead in your account about

2 the third rape and in order to maintain a rational order

3 in your account I would like you first to answer some

4 questions about the reception building in which you

5 stayed during your detention in Celebici.

6 Let us start from the room where you used to

7 sleep. Did this room have any window?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How was the window of this room where you used to sleep

10 in the reception building?

11 A. It was a large window and there were bars on the

12 window. It was actually some kind of wire. I don't

13 know how to describe it, what to call it.

14 Q. Which part of the camp could you see through this

15 window?

16 A. From the room, is that what you mean? From our room?

17 Q. Yes, from the room looking out through this window?

18 A. We could see the entrance gate and the road. That's

19 what we could see from our window, the road leading down

20 to the village of Celebici.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Excuse me. Can we have a break for at

22 least twenty minutes.

23 MR TURONE: Of course, your Honour.

24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will rise and

25 reassemble at 4.15.

Page 1789

1 (3.45pm)

2 (Short break)

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please invite the witness.

4 (Witness returned to court)

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Kindly remind the witness she is still

6 on her oath.

7 THE REGISTRAR: May I remind you that you are still under

8 oath?

9 A. Yes, under oath.

10 MR TURONE: May I proceed?

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, proceed.

12 MR TURONE: Madam, right before the break you were

13 describing the room where you used to sleep inside the

14 reception building. Can you describe the furniture in

15 that room?

16 A. There was an iron bed. There was also a wardrobe of

17 some kind and there was a hanger where you could hang

18 your coat. There was a mattress on the floor, where one

19 could sleep.

20 Q. I understand that in the very first night you were seven

21 women in that room. How did you sleep there with only

22 one bed and one mattress?

23 A. Three of us slept on the bed and four slept on the

24 floor, on that mattress.

25 Q. Madam, how many doors were in this room where you used

Page 1790

1 to sleep?

2 A. There were two doors, one that was used and we entered

3 and exited the room through that door and there was the

4 other door and this wardrobe was against that door.

5 Q. So the second door was actually not used; is that

6 correct?

7 A. No. I mean, yes, it was not used. Only one door was

8 used and we got in and out through that door.

9 Q. Were these two doors located in the same wall or in two

10 different walls?

11 A. On the same wall.

12 Q. What about the door which was actually used? Was that

13 usually kept open or closed or locked?

14 A. It was closed but not locked.

15 Q. Which kind of a door was that?

16 A. The door was made of wood, of planks. So it was not a

17 glass door but a wooden door.

18 Q. Where did this door lead to?

19 A. The door on our room where we were led to a large

20 corridor that was in front of our room.

21 Q. Was there any furniture in this other room which you

22 call a large corridor?

23 A. Yes. There was some kind of a wooden desk or a table,

24 and I think that there was also a chair, and you could

25 sit down on that chair.

Page 1791

1 Q. What was this room normally used for, this what you call

2 large corridor?

3 A. Well, while we were there it was used by the guards who

4 would stand guard. They would spend the night in that

5 corridor while they were on guard duty.

6 Q. How many windows did this room have?

7 A. Three.

8 Q. Which kind of windows were there?

9 A. These were not large windows. They were medium sized

10 windows, neither large nor small.

11 Q. I mean, were there glass windows? Did they have bars?

12 A. Yes. No, there were no bars, but they were glass.

13 Q. Which part of the camp could you see through these three

14 windows?

15 A. Through one of the windows we could see the entrance

16 gate leading to the compound, to the camp compound.

17 Through the -- through another window we could see a

18 large wall and above that wall there was the village,

19 the houses and the third window looked on to the Tunnel

20 Number 9 in which detainees or prison inmates were also

21 located.

22 Q. When you say that the second window looked to a wall,

23 was that wall inside the camp?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Madam, was the main entrance of the building visible

Page 1792

1 from any of these three windows?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. From which one?

4 A. From the window in the corridor, in the room that we

5 call the corridor.

6 Q. You mean the window that faced the gatehouse, or the

7 window which faced the wall, or the window which faced

8 Tunnel 9?

9 A. From the window that looked on to the entrance gate.

10 Q. So when you would get into this -- I beg your pardon.

11 Was there any other door in this second room, the

12 so-called large corridor? I mean, any other door

13 besides the one which led to your room?

14 A. Yes. There was a door leading to a small corridor that

15 was located in front of this large corridor.

16 Q. So when you would get into this third room, which you

17 call a small corridor, how many doors would you see

18 there?

19 A. There was one door leading to the toilet and a second

20 door was leading out into the yard.

21 Q. You mean the main entrance?

22 A. Yes. Well, towards the yard and then further on to the

23 entrance gate.

24 Q. What about the door which was not used and which should

25 have led to your room?

Page 1793

1 A. I think it was also in the small corridor.

2 Q. Would you now please describe the toilet?

3 A. When you get into the toilet, there is a tap with

4 water. We could wash there our faces and there was a

5 washbasin underneath the tap. There was another door

6 there leading to the toilet itself and there was a

7 squatting toilet. There wasn't a toilet bowl. So that

8 there were two doors.

9 Q. Was there any window in the toilet?

10 A. Yes, there was a small window in the toilet.

11 Q. Which part of the camp could you see through the toilet

12 window?

13 A. No, we could not see anything because the window was

14 very high up in the wall. It was high up so we couldn't

15 see anything through that window.

16 Q. Madam, was the main entrance of the building usually

17 kept open or closed or locked?

18 A. No. The door was half made of glass and half it was not

19 made of glass. It was not locked, but it was closed.

20 Q. How could the guards prevent you from escaping then?

21 A. Because the guards were always changing there and there

22 was always somebody standing guard there over us. We

23 were always under guard.

24 Q. All right. Now if I should show you a map of the

25 reception building, do you think you could recognise it

Page 1794

1 and orientate yourself on such a map?

2 A. I don't know. I might be able to. I am not sure, but I

3 will try to orientate myself.

4 Q. Then I ask the usher to provide the witness with exhibit

5 1. I think it is page ...

6 JUDGE JAN: Maybe 14.

7 MS VAN DUSSCHOTEN: Page 4.

8 THE USHER: On the ELMO?

9 MR TURONE: On the ELMO, please.

10 A. It's not very clear to me.

11 Q. It is not very clear to you. Okay. Never mind.

12 JUDGE JAN: Show her the photographs. Maybe she can do

13 that.

14 MR TURONE: Your Honour wants us to show her the photo,

15 photograph number 5 and Number 6 I suppose of Exhibit

16 Number 1. Do you recognise the building? Did you

17 recognise anything in this picture?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What did you recognise?

20 A. (Indicating).

21 Q. Is that the building you are talking about?

22 A. Yes. As far as I can see, it is.

23 Q. Mrs Antic, if you should see a model of the Celebici

24 camp, would you be in a position to orientate yourself

25 and recognise such a model? You see a model in front of

Page 1795

1 you. Could you recognise something in that model? You

2 can stand, Ms Antic, to see it better, if you wish?

3 JUDGE JAN: It is not the monitor?

4 A. I remember but I am not sure.

5 MR TURONE: All right. It does not matter. You can sit

6 down, Mrs Antic.

7 JUDGE JAN: This was made about four years after the

8 events. Maybe there has been some repainting, maybe

9 some changes possibly.

10 MR TURONE: Maybe she needed -- anyway ... Madam, before

11 going back to your account can you please tell the court

12 whether you had any other occasion to see Mr Delic

13 between the first rape and the second rape?

14 A. I would often see him in the courtyard, in the

15 compound. He would be walking around. He used to

16 sometimes come to our door just like that. He would

17 open the door and then sometimes he would say something

18 to us. Sometimes he would just turn. I saw him when

19 women were brought from Zukici.

20 Q. From when -- from where?

21 A. From the village of Zukici.

22 Q. Can you tell us details of this event, the coming of

23 women from Zukici?

24 A. One evening Grozda and myself were in that room where we

25 to be, and we heard female voices and females moaning,

Page 1796

1 and then we asked each other maybe somebody would come

2 to us so we would not be alone any more. Then after a

3 relatively short period of time -- I don't know how long

4 afterwards -- four women were brought in at the door and

5 they put them into our room. Those women were brought

6 by some guards. Then the lights were put on, because we

7 were never allowed to put the lights on. We were always

8 in the dark. Then the guards who brought them put the

9 lights on, so we could see that those women were heavily

10 beaten. An elderly woman, the oldest one among them,

11 was so severely beaten that she was not even able to see

12 with her eyes. Then they put them with us and with the

13 guards that brought them were accompanied by Delic. We

14 were there then. This elderly woman, the one who was

15 severely beaten, asked some help from us. She often she

16 asked us to take her to the toilet. Grozda constantly

17 kept taking her to the toilet. She asked us something

18 to eat, saying that she was hungry. We did not have

19 anything to give to her. After I don't know how much

20 time a fifth girl was brought in. She was a minor. She

21 might have had 12 -- she was 12 or 13 years old.

22 They put them there, brought them to us. At that

23 time they were threatening them, cursing. They cursed

24 their Cetnik mother and then they left them with us and

25 they spent the night with us there.

Page 1797

1 Q. Madam, can you say when did that happen, on which day,

2 approximately?

3 A. That happened somewhere in July. I do not know on what

4 day it was of the week, but I remember the date. It was

5 12th, because I knew one of the women. I recognised her

6 when they put the lights on, because I knew her from

7 before. She was a relative, an in-law of my sister's,

8 and as I knew her I asked her why they were brought

9 here. Then in a very low voice, because we were not

10 allowed to talk, so she whispered into my ear and told

11 me that they were arrested because on that particular

12 day or maybe the previous day -- I am not sure -- nine

13 Muslim soldiers had been killed somewhere between Zukici

14 and Bradina. They thought that the Cetniks killed them

15 and told so, and that is why they arrested them and

16 brought them to Celebici. I also whispered into her ear

17 and I asked her which date is it today and she said:

18 "Today it is a holiday, Saint Peter's day." As I know

19 on what date is Saint Peter's day, I knew it was 12th

20 July.

21 Q. Madam, did all this happen before the second rape you

22 suffered or after the second rape you have suffered?

23 A. After the second rape.

24 Q. After the second rape?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1798

1 Q. How long did these women remain with you in the

2 reception building?

3 A. Those women remained there just for one night, which

4 they spent with us there. The following morning when

5 day broke Mucic came at the door and he said that those

6 women from Zukici that they could go home. So they left

7 and only Grozda and myself remained.

8 Q. Could you tell us something about the conditions of life

9 inside this reception building for you? Did you receive

10 food regularly during your stay in this reception

11 building?

12 A. Even before, upon our arrival, until then we used to get

13 very little food. After that, as those women from

14 Zukici, after they were taken back home, we did not get

15 any food at all for three days. For three days we did

16 not eat anything. So that I was completely weakened,

17 and I was unable to stand up on my feet. Grozda had to

18 take me to the toilet.

19 When I saw I was so very weak, I asked one of the

20 guards to call the Commander of the camp to come to me

21 so that I could ask him either to let us go home or to

22 kill us, or else to give us something to eat. I do not

23 know whether the guard transmitted that. However, the

24 camp commander did not come, so for three days we were

25 without any food. After that we got one slice of bread,

Page 1799

1 thin as paper. After we got the slice of bread Delic

2 came and he asked why did he seek him and I repeated:

3 "Either let us go or kill us or give us something to

4 eat." He said: "What do you want? You see how it is

5 difficult to fast during Ramadan".

6 Q. Madam, did all this happen before or after the third

7 rape?

8 A. Before.

9 Q. When did the third rape take place? How much time after

10 that?

11 A. I do not know. I can't tell you exactly. I do not

12 remember. Maybe not long has passed, but I do not know

13 how many days.

14 Q. Now, Madam, could you please describe in detail the

15 third rape you suffered?

16 A. One day, it was daylight, he came at the door of our

17 room where we were.

18 Q. When you say "he came", who came?

19 A. Delic came to the door of our room, the room where we

20 were, and as soon as he came through the door he ordered

21 Grozda to go out into the corridor, which was in front

22 of our room. Grozda went out. As he was also armed on

23 that occasion, he also had hand grenades and a pistol

24 and a rifle, but he also had hand grenades on his belt.

25 He started threatening me and I repeated as usual not to

Page 1800

1 touch me, that I was a sick woman. He did not answer

2 anything to that. He only ordered me to take my clothes

3 off. Under pressure and under threat I had to do that.

4 After that he ordered me to go into the bed and lie

5 down.

6 Q. What happened then? Please give us some details about

7 what happened then?

8 A. Then he took his clothes off, his trousers. He did not

9 take his boots off, but the trousers were put down to

10 his boots. He went on to the bed and he raped me for

11 the third time.

12 Q. Again did he penetrate your vagina?

13 A. Yes. He did penetrate it but he was in a hurry.

14 I could see he did it in a hurry. So he did not stay

15 in.

16 Q. Did he ejaculate?

17 A. Yes, that time as well also on the lower part of my

18 abdomen.

19 Q. Was he completely undressed during the rape?

20 A. No. Only his trousers were pulled down. He still kept

21 his shirt and he kept his boots.

22 Q. Were you completely undressed during the rape?

23 A. I had only to take my tracksuit off and my underwear,

24 the lower part. I did not have to take the clothes on

25 the upper part of my body.

Page 1801

1 Q. What happened right after that?

2 A. We were not allowed to go to the toilet. We had a

3 plastic bowl, which we used to relieve ourselves during

4 the night. We had to urinate into that bowl during the

5 day, and during the day we would -- we were brought

6 water in that bowl and we had to drink out of that bowl.

7 Q. Did you have any further occasion to see Delic after the

8 third rape? Did he come to your room again?

9 A. Yes. Sometimes he would just come to the door, threaten

10 us, saying that we would never be released, that we

11 would be killed, and then he would turn around and go.

12 Sometimes he would just come in, open the door, not say

13 anything and straightaway turn his back.

14 Q. Did you have any occasion to talk to Delic after the

15 third rape?

16 A. Yes. On one occasion I only asked him. My sister

17 came. I saw my sister that was taking food to me.

18 I saw her through the window. She was waiting to give

19 food for me, so I asked one of the guards to ask the

20 Commander whether my sister could come inside so that

21 I could ask her about our mother, whether she was alive

22 and how she was. Then Delic went somewhere by car and

23 he pulled up just in front of the window of the corridor

24 and through the window I asked him. I told him:

25 "Commander, sir, please could I meet my sister to

Page 1802

1 enquire about my mother?" Then he told my sister that

2 she could come in, and my sister came and we met so that

3 I could enquire after my mother.

4 Q. Madam, did you suffer any other rape after the three

5 ones you described?

6 A. No. One night, it was very late, there was a guard

7 there was on night duty. Grozdana went to the toilet

8 and that guard who was on duty that evening entered the

9 room where I was. I got scared. I was afraid that

10 another rape would occur or something like that, and

11 I started crying. I said that: "I will call for help."

12 As all the guards were afraid of Delic because he was

13 their commander and they were all scared of him, he

14 became afraid and he went out. He did not abuse me or

15 rape me. He went out.

16 Q. You do not -- do you know the name of this man?

17 A. No. I do not know his name. Afterwards I was told that

18 that guard was somewhere from the region of Fojnica.

19 There is a town called Fojnica and that guard was from

20 there.

21 Q. Madam, going back for a moment to your third rape, can

22 you say approximately when did that happen?

23 A. I do not know exactly. I only know that it was after

24 that period when we had no food. When those women from

25 Zukici spent the night, it was also after that, but I do

Page 1803

1 not recall how much time had passed in the meantime.

2 Q. Mrs Antic, do you know whether Grozdana Cecez had

3 contraceptive pills with her?

4 A. Yes. Grozdana had that and she was taking that and she

5 also said that she was taking that even before the war

6 and for many years, that she has needed that for many

7 years and she used to take that even before coming to

8 Celebici.

9 Q. Did she ever offer such pills to you?

10 A. Yes. When that happened to me, I mean after that second

11 rape, she told me: "Yes, I have that. I used to take

12 that even while she was at home." She told me: "If you'd

13 like me, I will give that to you." I told her I did not

14 need anything like that but I did not say why, because

15 I --

16 Q. Can you tell now the court why you did not need such

17 pills, if you do not mind?

18 A. When I refused, saying that I did not need that, I did

19 not tell Grozdana the reason why, but I didn't need that

20 because in 1984 I was operated on. I had a tumour, womb

21 tumour. So I did not need that kind of pills, but I did

22 not tell that to Grozda. I was hiding it slightly. Not

23 everybody knew that I had been operated on and that

24 I suffered from that illness.

25 Q. All right. Thank you, Mrs Antic. Can you tell us: did

Page 1804

1 you see any mistreatment of other prisoners during your

2 stay in Celebici?

3 A. Yes. One day I saw, while I was going to the toilet,

4 I saw an inmate whose name was Slavko Susic. He was

5 against a big wall, the one wall that could be seen

6 through the window in the corridor where we were. So

7 when I went to the toilet, I saw Slavko leaning against

8 the wall. Next to him was a soldier wearing a

9 camouflage uniform. I recognised Delic. Delic was

10 holding a piece of wood while I was passing by coming

11 back from the toilet.

12 Q. Did you say this to Grozdana?

13 A. I said that to Grozdana and I said: "There is Slavko

14 leaning against the wall." Then Grozdana went out. I

15 don't know. I did not come back. I did not even dare

16 look at what was going on.

17 Q. Did you eyewitness Slavko Susic there against the wall

18 from where?

19 A. I saw him from the window and the door that was the

20 entrance door. As I was going towards the toilet,

21 that's the door leading on to the courtyard. It was

22 made of glass, so I was able to see both through the

23 window and through the door leading out of the

24 building. They opened up on to that wall where Slavko

25 was leaning against.

Page 1805

1 Q. From which distance could you eyewitness this scene?

2 A. Well, I don't know. It wasn't too far away. I don't

3 know exactly, but not too far away.

4 Q. Did you see that going to the toilet and coming back or

5 only going or coming back from the toilet I think?

6 A. When I went to the toilet, I saw and when I was going

7 back he was standing in the same spot.

8 Q. How could you recognise Susic? What was his position?

9 Was he facing to the window where you were?

10 A. Slavko was facing the wall, but since I knew him well,

11 we were very good friends. His wife worked with me

12 before the war, and we visit the each other very often,

13 so I saw when he was led out of the compound, the camp

14 compound to go looking for some radio transmitter.

15 I saw him being taken to the car. He wore a tracksuit

16 and a pair of large boots. They were rolled down, the

17 boots. Since I knew him well from before, I could see

18 that it was Slavko.

19 Q. When you had a chance to see this scene, did you see

20 whether there were other people with Mr Delic and

21 Mr Susic?

22 A. There was another soldier but I did not know him.

23 Q. Do you have any knowledge of what happened to Susic

24 after that?

25 A. Maybe a day or two after that -- I can't remember now --

Page 1806

1 two days later a guard told us that Slavko had died,

2 that he had died in Number 9. He was in the tunnel that

3 was called Number 9.

4 Q. Did Grozdana go and see this same scene through the

5 window before you or after you or both?

6 JUDGE JAN: She has already said that she went and informed

7 Grozdana who was happening so naturally Grozdana saw the

8 incident after she had seen it.

9 MR TURONE: Okay. Maybe I did not get the answer quite

10 clearly. Okay. Did you have occasion to clean the

11 place around the reception building?

12 A. Yes. Grozdana was taken out more often than I was to

13 sweep in front of the door, so she was going out more

14 often and she was in a better position to see what was

15 happening than I did, but we were never allowed to talk

16 about what we had seen and about what was happening,

17 since there was always somebody in front of the door and

18 we did not dare lest somebody should hear us talking

19 about those things.

20 Q. Madam, did you know Delic from before the war?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Can you describe Delic, please?

23 A. He was quite tall. He had short hair. He was balding.

24 He had receding hair. That's more or less it.

25 Q. Were you shown a series of photos a few days ago and

Page 1807

1 were you asked if you could recognise anybody in those

2 photos?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you sign a piece of paper containing your answer to

5 that question?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Your Honours, may I have this short statement with

8 photo-spread attachment be marked for identification as

9 Number 90 and shown to the witness for identification

10 purposes, if you do not mind.

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can show it to her.

12 MR TURONE: Could you please put it on the ELMO.

13 Madam, would you please look at the piece of paper

14 on your right, because you have the clear paper on your

15 right. Would the usher show the witness where to look

16 at. Do you recognise your signature on this paper down

17 at the bottom of this paper? You see there are a number

18 of signatures. Is your signature appearing on this

19 paper?

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear the witness.

21 MR TURONE: The interpreter cannot hear the witness.

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: She should speak into the microphone?

23 A. Yes, it is. My signature is on that paper.

24 MR TURONE: Does this paper reflect what you said? I will

25 read it for your convenience:

Page 1808

1 "The witness responded, indicated for the 4 and:

2 "This person seems to be familiar. I am not sure but

3 you must remember it has been five years since it

4 happened, so details are a bit vague, but the features

5 I remember are the forehead, the nose and the mouth. As

6 far as I can remember, since it was some time ago, he

7 looked like the perpetrator of the crime".

8 Does this reflect what you said, Mrs Antic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So, your Honour, I would like to tender this statement

11 and the attached photo-spread as Exhibit Number 90 for

12 admission.

13 MR MORAN: Your Honour, Tom Moran for Hazim Delic. We

14 object to the admission of the xeroxed photo-spread,

15 because you can't see anything. It is hard to tell. If

16 they want to admit the original photographs.

17 MR TURONE: Of course we can provide the original

18 photographs if this is your objection, Mr Moran.

19 MR MORAN: I would not object to that but the xerox copies

20 are so unclear.

21 MR TURONE: We have no difficulty in attaching the original

22 photo-spread certainly.

23 MR MORAN: Your Honour, as to the statement itself, we

24 would object that it is cumulative of what she can

25 testify to. Let her testify to what she saw.

Page 1809

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What is the objection? Is it that it

2 is not her statement?

3 MR MORAN: No, it is not an objection it is not her

4 statement, not at all. She adopted the statement.

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. I do not see what the objection

6 about the statement should be. For the photographs,

7 yes, I think it is possible there may be some doubts.

8 If they can bring the original photographs, it might

9 make things clearer.

10 MR MORAN: Your Honour, as long as the prosecution agrees

11 to substitute the original photographs for the xerox, we

12 have no objection.

13 MR TURONE: We will certainly provide the new attachment.

14 So the exhibit 90 is the statement of the witness and

15 the attachment will be changed as soon as possible and

16 substituted with the original photographs.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is neater.

18 MR TURONE: Thank you, your Honour. Mr Antic, were you

19 ever formally interrogated by military investigators

20 during your stay in Celebici besides the interrogation

21 of the first day?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When did that happen approximately?

24 A. I don't know how many days I had already been there. We

25 were called to the building where their command was to

Page 1810

1 be interrogated.

2 Q. Was that in the same room of the rapes?

3 A. No. It was in the same building but not in the same

4 room.

5 Q. Can you say which part of the camp could you see through

6 the window of this room?

7 A. From that room through the window in that room we could

8 see the building that was called 22.

9 Q. Were you accused of anything specific?

10 A. On that occasion I was asked about the radio transmitter

11 that they had been looking for when they came to my

12 house. Since they did not find this thing in my house

13 they told me that I kept it in my hair.

14 Q. How many people did interrogate you on this occasion?

15 A. The one who interrogated me was my first neighbour, my

16 next-door-neighbour. His name was Mirso Subasic. There

17 was another man with him but I did not know him.

18 Q. Were they in uniform?

19 A. Yes. They were in camouflage uniforms.

20 Q. Did you sign any piece of paper after that

21 interrogation?

22 A. I may have, but if I signed it, it was under duress.

23 I had to do whatever they wanted me to. Since I was

24 accused of all kinds of things, even of carrying a radio

25 transmitter in my hair, and my hair was always this

Page 1811

1 length, so I felt sorry for my neighbours for accusing

2 me of all those things. I believe that if I had signed

3 something I did that under duress.

4 Q. Was that a long interrogation?

5 A. I don't know exactly for how long, but it wasn't a very

6 long time.

7 Q. Was there any judicial proceedings against you after

8 that?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Ms Antic, did the Red Cross ever visit the camp?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was that several times or one time?

13 A. They visited for three days, the Red Cross visited the

14 camp, the Celebici camp.

15 Q. Can you say approximately when did that happen?

16 A. I don't know the exact date, but it was in August.

17 Q. Could you describe these visits? Did they visit you?

18 A. One day, the first day when we saw them enter the

19 compound through the gate, the camp compound, there were

20 two International Red Cross cars and we saw them visit

21 the prisoners who were in tunnel called Number 9 and on

22 that day they visited them and we saw them leave through

23 the gate on their way out, on their way back. Then the

24 next day when they came to the camp again, we saw the

25 same cars enter the camp. We did not see them because

Page 1812

1 they were not parked in that area which we could see

2 from our windows. I was called out to sweep the area

3 outside the door in the courtyard, so I got out and

4 I cleaned and swept the area and I saw the two cars of

5 the International Red Cross. They were parked in front

6 of the command building. So I cleaned and one guard was

7 guarding me and I saw that the International Red Cross

8 was supposed to leave at that time. Next to the car

9 there stood Delic. When the International Red Cross,

10 when the people got into their cars, Delic ordered the

11 guard who was guarding me to drive me inside the room

12 where Grozda was. I had to get in. I was afraid.

13 I told Grozda when I got in the room. I said: "We're in

14 trouble, Grozda. They probably are trying to hide our

15 existence. They will probably kill us since they are

16 not allowing them to see us women. It must be because

17 they will kill us".

18 Grozda was also scared. We both started crying.

19 We were afraid that we would be hidden somewhere and

20 killed. The cars left the compound and they left.

21 Then the third day we again saw them enter the

22 compound -- I mean the International Red Cross. Then

23 they visited the prisoners in the Number 6, where those

24 prisoners were located. When they visited those

25 prisoners in Number 6 they asked if there were any women

Page 1813

1 here in the camp and the other prisoners told them about

2 us, so we were visited by them. They came to our room

3 on that day.

4 Q. What did you tell them?

5 A. They asked us how we were, how we felt, whether we were

6 abused by anyone, whether anyone touched us, whether we

7 had enough food and hygiene facilities. They asked us

8 everything, about everything, but I could not give them

9 any answers. Grozda was speaking in my name too.

10 Grozda said about me, that I had been raped three

11 times. They asked me if it was true and then I said:

12 "Yes, it was." Then they asked me if this man who was

13 doing that, if he was still there.

14 Q. What did you say to that question?

15 A. Yes. I said that he was still there in the compound and

16 he was some kind of a commander.

17 Q. Ms. Antic, when did you leave Celebici camp?

18 A. On 31st August.

19 Q. How did that happen? I mean, were you given a release

20 document?

21 A. Yes. A guard came in the morning. He came at the door

22 and he said that we would be going home that day. We

23 were happy because of that, so that we were waiting to

24 be called and to be told to get ready, and after a short

25 while another guard came to the door and he said that we

Page 1814

1 should follow him. So we went with the guard who

2 brought us to the building where the command was. He

3 took us into a room and Pavo Mucic was sitting there,

4 and he released us and he told us that we would be going

5 home. He issued us with some kind of a release document

6 indicating that we were allowed to go home, that he was

7 setting us free and that we were free to go home.

8 Q. Who was exactly the person who gave you the release

9 form?

10 A. Mucic.

11 Q. By whom was the release form signed?

12 A. Mucic.

13 Q. Did he sign that in front of you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is it correct that you gave this document to the

16 prosecution a few days ago?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Your Honours, I would mark for identification this

19 release form as Exhibit Number 91 and 91A and then

20 submit it to the witness for identification purposes, if

21 you allow me.

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can do that.

23 MR TURONE: Could you place on the ELMO the original,

24 please? Ms Antic, would you please watch the document

25 which is on your right. Is this your release form?

Page 1815

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. Who did fill this document as for the limitation of your

3 movements?

4 A. It was filled in by Mucic. Mucic wrote down that my

5 freedom of movement was limited to Konjic and

6 Pokojiste. Pokojiste is where my mother had fled from

7 her home and I asked if possible at all if it is

8 possible, if he could also put down my village, Idbar,

9 to limit my freedom of movement to Konjic, Pokojiste and

10 Idbar, so that I could go to my garden and bring some

11 produce back, since my sister -- my mother was with my

12 sister -- since my sister had taken in a lot of

13 refugees. I wasn't sure whether we would have enough

14 food for all of us. So I asked him is it at all

15 possible for him to limit my movements to Idbar and he

16 did that to me, so that he wrote down Konjic, Pokojiste,

17 Idbar.

18 Q. Do you know which role did Mr Mucic have inside the

19 camp?

20 A. In the camp he was in charge. He was asked about

21 everything.

22 Q. While you were at the camp, did Mr Mucic ever ask you

23 about your treatment?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Were there other times besides the one you already told

Page 1816

1 us, any other time in which you know Mr Mucic was at the

2 camp, inside the camp?

3 A. He arrived on one other occasion to our room. Mucic

4 came to our room on one other occasion. He brought in a

5 girl. She was Grozda's -- she was from Grozda's

6 brother-in-law, so he brought her in to visit Grozda.

7 Q. All right, your Honour. This concludes my

8 examination-in-chief of witness Antic. I am sorry.

9 I tender as exhibit 91 and 91A for admission?

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Has the defence seen the release

11 documents?

12 MR MORAN: I have seen it and I have absolutely no

13 objection to it.

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Any objection?

15 MR GREAVES: I would like to see it myself and I would like

16 to show it to my client, if I may, please.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can see them.

18 MR GREAVES: Thank you very much.

19 MS McMURREY: We have no objections.

20 MR TURONE: I think you have received it already.

21 MR GREAVES: I have not received it. I have received a

22 translation of it but not a copy of this document.

23 MR TURONE: I am sorry.

24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The original, yes.

25 MR GREAVES: Would your Honours forgive me for a moment if

Page 1817

1 I turn my back on you, please?

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: No.

3 MR GREAVES: Yes, I have no objection to that document.

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The document is admitted.

5 MR TURONE: I am concluded. Thank you.

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I do not think we could start any

7 cross-examination now, the end of the day. I think we

8 can continue with cross-examination when we come on the

9 14th.

10 (5.30 pm)

11 (Hearing adjourned until 10.00am on 14th April 1997)

12 --ooOoo--