1 Tuesday, 22nd April 1997

2 (10.00 am)

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

4 We are back after so many days now, so we will try and

5 carry on from where we had stopped.

6 Before we start the proceedings of this morning,

7 I think we will try to deal with two outstanding

8 motions. The first one is the prosecution's intention

9 to show video excerpts to Witness N. We think we should

10 clear that up before we continue with the witness. The

11 second one is a video link as well. I think we can

12 clear these matters.

13 MR. OSTBERG: Your Honour, I have one -- concerning this

14 matter, pursuant to Rule 54, I have one request

15 concerning point two, the request for the inclusion of

16 the transcript of the audio-visual recordings that the

17 Prosecutor handed over in March and the admissibility of

18 evidence, point two in your order.

19 I would request, your Honour, that we have that

20 hearing after we have heard Witness I, that is I want to

21 ask your permission to have this discussion when we have

22 finished with Witness N and Miro Golubovic and with

23 Witness I. The motive for this request is the

24 flexibility of the witnesses. They are waiting to

25 appear before the court, and therefore I think we could

1 without harming anybody's interest have this discussion

2 after having heard these witnesses, your Honour. That

3 is my request.

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Do you think the motions we have

5 before us have anything to do with this matter, with

6 what you have raised?

7 MR. OSTBERG: Just a question of timing.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let us get what you have raised out of

9 our chest and then we can take up whatever you are now

10 raising.

11 MR. OSTBERG: Yes.

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Instead of bringing it in between what

13 we are doing.

14 MR. OSTBERG: Okay. We can take it up when it arises after

15 we have dealt with point one. Thank you, your Honour.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Now who is speaking to the motion? It

17 is the prosecution's motion. Who is speaking to it?

18 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, if you want me to start with the

19 first issue, which is the showing of an excerpt

20 videotape to Witness N, we have actually filed a short

21 motion on that, asking for the showing of this excerpt

22 video link to Witness N. We had already a response from

23 one of the defence parties, MR. Delic's defence lawyers.

24 We understand that he would not object to that, provided

25 we are not going to have the sound audible in this court

1 room, and we certainly assure you that the idea of the

2 prosecution is showing only the excerpt video without

3 any sound in order to have the witness recognise places

4 and persons and nothing else, and after that there would

5 be from the part of the prosecution let us say

6 provisional exhibiting of this excerpt video, which

7 might become definitive after the final exhibiting of

8 the original seized videotape. This is the sense of our

9 request, your Honours.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Any impression on the part of the

11 defence?

12 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, proceeding

13 from the argument presented by the distinguished

14 prosecution representative at the last sitting and what

15 has been said today, the defence of Zejnil Delalic is

16 opposed to the use and showing of the videotape to

17 Witness N; namely, as noted by the prosecution, it is an

18 excerpt of an allegedly seized tape found on the

19 accused. The prosecution has proposed on the list of

20 his witnesses an Austrian policeman as a witness, who

21 has to state before this Trial Chamber whether this is

22 seized material, first, and, secondly, whether this

23 material was lawfully seized. Both facts are essential

24 for a just trial and are in the interest of justice.

25 Explaining his request, the prosecution referred

1 to economical reasons, but these cannot precede the

2 interests of legality, fairness and justice. My client

3 has reason to claim that the evidence taken by the

4 prosecution is not evidence whose validity can be

5 established at this Trial Chamber, therefore, before it

6 is established that the prosecution has evidence in his

7 possession that has been obtained lawfully, for that

8 evidence to be shown to witnesses. Thank you, your

9 Honours.

10 MS. TAPUSKOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honour, referring

11 to the motion of the prosecution to show this videotape,

12 we must point out that it should be underlined that this

13 cassette is a compilation of extracts taken from the

14 apartment of the accused, Mr. Mucic, and we join in what

15 my learned colleague, Ms Residovic, said, that this

16 evidence may be shown only after the witness is heard

17 who first found that tape, and he is number 35 on the

18 prosecution's list. Regardless of the allegations made

19 by the prosecution now, that if the Trial Chamber allows

20 the presentation of this tape, the sound would be

21 switched off and only the pictures would be shown to the

22 witness in order to identify certain persons in the

23 Celebici camp, we still allege that when the witness

24 number 35 on the list appears, that is a member of the

25 Austrian police, I would ask your Honours to allow us to

1 reserve the right to discuss this question again,

2 whether the sound can also be used for the tape.

3 Therefore, the arguments should be made then

4 against the use of this tape with the sound. If the

5 prosecution feels that we should present arguments now,

6 we may do so. There is no problem on our side. We can

7 do that now, but otherwise we feel that this videotape

8 prepared by the prosecution could be shown only after

9 the appearance of witness number 35. I apologise. I do

10 not recall his name. It is a German name. Only then

11 can we discuss whether such evidence is acceptable, and

12 I support all that has been said by my learned colleague

13 Ms Residovic.

14 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, on behalf of Defendant Esad

15 Landzo, we, having not participated and not owned the

16 videotapes, have no standing to contest the legality of

17 the seizure. So we defer to our esteemed colleagues

18 representing Mr. Delalic and Mr. Mucic on those areas. As

19 far as the content of the videotape itself being shown

20 for identification purposes only, we have no objections

21 to that part as long as, of course, the tapes were

22 legally seized according to the other two defendants,

23 and as long as there is no audiotape. Thank you.

24 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, just so that the record is clear,

25 Mr. Delic has no objection to the admission of the

1 video. We have not agreed to the admission of the

2 audio, not just that it would not be played. We do not

3 agree to the admissibility of it. I think that is the

4 agreement we have with the prosecution, that the audio,

5 the words, would, in fact, not be introduced into

6 evidence.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually if I understand the

8 contention of the prosecution, at this stage all they

9 want are just excerpts of the video itself, not the

10 entire document.

11 MR. MORAN: That is correct, your Honour. With that entire

12 understanding, that the audio is not even introduced, we

13 have no objection to it.

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: So it is not admitting the video into

15 evidence, just identifying excerpts for purposes of

16 admission?

17 MR. MORAN: That is correct, your Honour.

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think this is all they are trying to

19 do.

20 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, have I understood in your

21 statement we only show the video without even a

22 provision of exhibiting?

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Well, you want to make it an exhibit?

24 MR. TURONE: Well, let us say -- I will repeat that we are

25 quite in agreement with --

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You have to show how it can be an

2 exhibit under this witness, who is merely identifying

3 certain excerpts in it.

4 MR. TURONE: The prosecution is very flexible on that. We

5 might simply have in the record of the testimony the

6 witness recognising places and persons and nothing

7 else. If the provisional exhibiting of the tape itself

8 is not deemed to be necessary anyway for reasons of the

9 record, but anyway, even in case of a provisional

10 exhibiting, in our submission, that would be provisional

11 in the sense that it might become definitive only when

12 we will be in a position to prove the legal seizure of

13 the tape and then reach the admission of the original

14 seized tape as a definitive exhibit.

15 Anyway our position is quite flexible. We

16 reassure the defence lawyers that we are not going to

17 play the audio of this videotape, and we simply would

18 like to have the witness recognise persons whenever he

19 is in a position to do that, and if there is no

20 objection to this kind of a provisional exhibiting, we

21 will be happy to do that. Otherwise we will not even

22 try to have this kind of a provisional exhibit.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I wish I understood all you have said,

24 because all you are trying to show is that this witness

25 identifies certain persons in the video? This is all

1 you say. It makes no claim as to how the video was

2 produced. He has no authority as to how it came into

3 possession. I do not see how you can even bring it into

4 exhibiting at all.

5 MR. TURONE: All right, your Honour. I agree.

6 JUDGE JAN: You want to identify them at a particular place

7 or a particular time? Why do you want to get them

8 identified? The witness knows the accused persons. So

9 why do you want this identification? For what purpose?

10 I just want information, nothing more than that.

11 MR. TURONE: The idea is to have the witness recognising and

12 identifying people inside the camp, the same way we did

13 in one of the past hearings with an excerpt video of the

14 same tape, I think, which defence counsels wanted to

15 show to some witnesses for the same reason. This is all

16 what we ask to do. In that case there was anyway an

17 exhibiting of the excerpt video shown to the witnesses,

18 but in our submission this does not make much difference

19 to the prosecution. So we could even be happy in simply

20 having the witness watch the tape and say whether he

21 recognises any person and nothing else, and we might not

22 even have this kind of a provisional exhibit, which

23 I understand the Chamber is sceptical about. I hope my

24 explanation was sufficient.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We are still in the process of

1 argument. Let us hear -- Ms Residovic wanted to say

2 something.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your

4 Honours. If the prosecution wishes the witness to

5 identify places and persons, he has already provided

6 evidence for the court, the model of the camp, the plan,

7 and the photo-spread, and he could have done that for

8 certain persons in this way. The explanation that the

9 defence also used a videotape for purposes of

10 identification I think is not acceptable, since this was

11 a cross-examination by the defence and, secondly, the

12 prosecution has the authority to be able to prove that

13 certain pieces of evidence are legally in his possession

14 before presenting it to the Trial Chamber.

15 MS. TAPUSKOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, in

16 addition to what colleague Residovic has said, that the

17 prosecution was able to carry out the identification in

18 other ways of the camp using the model and the

19 photo-spread and videotapes, the motion of the

20 prosecution of 10th April to allow such evidence in the

21 course of the hearing of Witness N. We were also

22 supplied with a transcript of those excerpts, which are

23 part of the compilation of the videotape which the

24 prosecution wishes to show. We see from the transcript

25 that, with the exception of one of the accused, among

1 the persons shown on the tape there are no other

2 accused, not a single witness, nor any of the guards

3 that are familiar to the participants in these

4 proceedings.

5 What the prosecution wishes to achieve is the

6 question; with the introduction of this videotape the

7 identification of which persons? I would like them to

8 answer this question. Do they wish to combine the

9 accused with third persons, the guards or anyone else?

10 I see no legal relevance of identifying persons and,

11 according to the transcript of the audiotape we were

12 supplied with by the prosecution, regardless of the fact

13 that the prosecution is now stating that for the moment

14 it has no intention of using the audio. Therefore, we

15 need to have proof of the legal relevance of the

16 introduction of such evidence, because we do not know

17 which persons the prosecution wants to be identified.

18 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, if I might add just one more

19 point just for clarification, the videotape excerpts

20 that have been played before were on cross-examination

21 and were solely --

22 JUDGE ODIO BENITO: Could you wait, please?

23 MS. McMURREY: Oh, I am sorry.

24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes? Let us hear you.

25 MS. McMURREY: The videotape before was solely used for

1 cross-examination purposes limited to the purpose of

2 impeachment of a prosecution witness. At this point the

3 prosecution is now putting on its case in chief, which

4 means they are presenting evidence in the case, which

5 I think is the clear difference between playing the

6 videotape before and offering the videotape at this

7 time. Thank you.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think we will later give our reasons

9 in full, but I think after listening to the arguments

10 the Trial Chamber is convinced that it is not really

11 necessary for any identification of any person through

12 the excerpts of these videos before they come into

13 evidence. It is not necessary.

14 The next motion is one from the prosecution also

15 to allow witnesses K, L and M to give their testimony by

16 means of videolink conference. So who is speaking to

17 that?

18 MR. TURONE: Yes, your Honour. I will do that briefly

19 again. We filed this kind of a motion because the two

20 witnesses L and K, have serious medical reasons which

21 prevent them from coming to The Hague concerning the

22 lady and the son of both witnesses. We maintain this

23 request for a videolink for these two witnesses. On the

24 other hand, we withdraw now the request concerning

25 witness M, because, concerning witness M, the host

1 country gave assurances that he will be readmitted into

2 the host country after the testimony.

3 So we maintain our request concerning witnesses K

4 and L and withdraw it concerning Mr. M. As for the

5 reasons why we requested this kind of protective

6 measures for these witnesses, now with these two

7 witnesses, I cannot say -- I would not add anything than

8 what is already written in our motion, your Honours.

9 Thank you.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Can we hear the defence on this? Any

11 reaction?

12 MR. MORAN: Your Honours, we made clear in our written

13 response so long as the prosecution complies with the

14 decision from the Tadic Trial Chamber on the procedural

15 requirements and logistical requirements and setting

16 things up, Mr. Delic would have no objection at all.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Any other ...?

18 MS. McMURREY: Yes, your Honour. Esad Landzo does object to

19 the videolink testimony of these witnesses as, pursuant

20 to Article 21 of the Rights of the Accused, 21.4(e), and

21 I believe Rule 89 of the Rules of Evidence, he has a

22 right to have the witnesses present in the court room to

23 testify. I do not believe that we have sufficient

24 evidence that these medical reasons of children or

25 siblings or whatever it is that they have presented

1 represent sufficient reason for them not to be presented

2 here in the court room. So the rights of the accused to

3 confront the accusers in person in the court room,

4 I believe, would be violated as far as Esad Landzo is

5 concerned. We do not object to any other protections as

6 long as the witness himself is present in the court

7 room. Thank you.

8 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I would respectfully concur with

9 my learned friend who has just spoken on that subject.

10 Thank you.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, the

12 defence of Zejnil Delalic also is on the position that

13 the witness needs to present his testimony confronting

14 the accused. However, we do accept that in certain

15 situations, which need to be reasoned in detail and

16 under very strict conditions, as in the Tadic case, at

17 the Prosecutor's as well as the defence request, there

18 could be some exceptions and the testimony could be

19 provided through videolink. In this specific case,

20 though, we do not see that the prosecution has offered

21 good enough reasons. How, it is our position that,

22 should the Trial Chamber accept this motion in this or

23 any future cases, an issue needs to be resolved which is

24 of some significance for the defence; in other words,

25 how can a witness be provided with some piece of

1 evidence which the defence might want to use in order to

2 impeach the witness or want to use in any other way?

3 The Delalic defence also wants to point out

4 another reason. We will submit in writing to this Trial

5 Chamber that some witnesses have been under a

6 significant influence of the Association of Detainees.

7 This Association has requested before the beginning of

8 this trial that defence get no contact with the

9 witnesses and that it is exerting strong influence on

10 the witnesses. Our learned colleague, Ms McHenry, also

11 pointed out that the Prosecutor does not always have

12 direct contact with the witnesses, but that it gets in

13 touch with the witnesses sometimes through the

14 Association of Detainees.

15 Therefore, the Delalic defence submits that if the

16 videolink is used, the location where this videolink is

17 coming from also needs a person, a representative from

18 both prosecution and defence present at that location.

19 Thank you, your Honours.

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr. Turone, do you want to add

21 anything? You can take a question from my brother

22 judge.

23 JUDGE JAN: I do not know; I am not really asking you to

24 make any predictions but how long do you think you will

25 take in concluding your evidence? A month, two months,

1 six weeks, how long?

2 MR. TURONE: You mean the whole prosecution case?

3 JUDGE JAN: Prosecution.

4 MR. TURONE: That is a good question, your Honour.

5 JUDGE JAN: As I said, I do not want you to make any exact

6 predictions. This has a bearing on the motion for us.

7 MR. TURONE: A couple of months. Maybe a couple of months.

8 MR. OSTBERG: Two months.

9 JUDGE JAN: Okay. Thank you.

10 MR. TURONE: May I add something else on this issue, your

11 Honour?

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, please. Let us hear you in

13 reply.

14 MR. TURONE: First of all, if there is simply a matter of

15 evidence, we are ready to prepare some affidavits and

16 enter some documentation concerning the medical reasons

18 a matter of evidence. On the other hand, I do not know

19 if this is very useful for our esteemed colleagues of

20 the defence lawyers, but we not only have no information

21 that this association is improperly behaving, but anyway

22 these two specific witnesses, K and L, had no contact

23 with this association, because they are in a host

24 country and they were not anyway contacted by us through

25 this association. Anyway, the real point I wanted to

1 point out, there is a matter of sufficient evidence. We

2 are ready to prepare -- have some affidavits and

3 documentation on the medical situation concerning these

4 two witnesses and their son. Thank you.

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Perhaps before you sit down, I think

6 what really bothers us is the point which has been made

7 by some defence counsel that a videolink conference by

8 itself is in violation of Article 21(e). I thought that

9 is what you should have directed your attention to.

10 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, we rely upon the case law in the

11 Tadic case. Of course, this measure has to be a very,

12 very exceptional measure, and in the Tadic case that was

13 stated, but since it was admitted in the Tadic case

14 under very strict conditions, we supposed -- in our

15 submission we think this might be anyway ruled in other

16 very exceptional circumstances like that. On the other

17 hand, the videolink can be done with particular careful

18 measures so as to respond to every single requirement

19 belonging to the right of correct cross-examination and

20 rights of the defence in general.

21 Of course, this needs some specific practical

22 measures which were anyway taken, as far as I know, in

23 the Tadic case. This is all I can -- this is what I can

24 say about this.

25 JUDGE JAN: I asked you that question about the estimate

1 you will take, because I had something in my mind. You

2 do not have to produce those witnesses immediately.

3 Wait for a month and a half. You will not conclude your

4 evidence before that. Maybe the health of the relatives

5 of these two witnesses will have improved by that time

6 and they are in a position to come. We will consider

7 that question at that stage. This is what I have in

8 mind. That is why I asked you.

9 MR. TURONE: This is anyway the other side of my views on

10 the proper evidence on this specific situation, because

11 the medical situation of these two persons is not a

12 medical situation which can really change better in a

13 couple of months.

14 JUDGE JAN: (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 MR. TURONE: (redacted)

17 JUDGE JAN: (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 MR. TURONE: We are not doing that, but there are some

20 particular medical situations, health situations,

21 because of -- I do not know -- heavy cancer or other

22 very, very grave illnesses which probably in any state

23 of the world can be --

24 JUDGE JAN: Why not wait and examine them later?

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please, your Honour.

1 JUDGE JAN: If they are still unable to come, you can

2 repeat your request.

3 MR. TURONE: All right. That might be also ....

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think we have heard you. I think

5 you are not entitled to tell the prognosis at this

6 stage. We will know what to do. We will come back in

7 30 minutes time and give you a ruling.

8 (10.45 am)

9 (Short break)

10 (11.25 am)

11 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, I know that the court has been

12 deliberating on this issue to give us a ruling on the

13 prosecution's motion at this moment, but the defence

14 attorneys have had a discussion in the defence room and

15 we have a little further argument to offer in relation

16 to this issue of videolink testimony, if the court would

17 so entertain. If not, we will be forced to file our own

18 motion and reopen this issue at another time. So

19 whichever way you would like to hear it. It is relevant

20 to the issue before the court, but if you would rather

21 hear our arguments at another time, we will file a

22 further motion and ask for another hearing on this

23 motion.

24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You assume too many things. You think

25 merely because you file a further motion, you get it.

1 MS. McMURREY: We hope so, your Honour.

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Do not make your own rulings before

3 you hear them. Nobody ever makes rulings when you are

4 asking somebody else for his decision. You have made up

5 your mind. You have to make further applications and

6 get it reargued on your own terms.

7 MS. McMURREY: I am sorry if I presented the question

8 improperly.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: As you have always done. In any

10 event, if it is necessary to put on further arguments,

11 the Trial Chamber will hear that.

12 MS. McMURREY: Okay. Thank you, your Honour.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We are supposed to hear these things.

14 MS. McMURREY: So I have permission to go into it now?

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If it is the decision of the defence.

16 MS. McMURREY: Yes, your Honour. Mme Residovic had already

17 mentioned this issue before about the evidence that we

18 have that there has been some -- I hate to use this

19 term; I am afraid to -- possible tampering of the

20 witnesses and not by the prosecution. We are not

21 alleging that any member of this Tribunal has had any

22 kind of contact with the witnesses that has been

23 improper. That is not the allegation of the defence at

24 all. But we believe that there is a foreign group which

25 has been soliciting testimony and prompting these

1 witnesses, and under its -- it is in violation of Rule

2 90(d) of the Statute of this Tribunal as construed by

3 the Trial Chamber in the Prosecution v Tadic. That

4 decision was number IT-94-1-T. It is about preventing

5 the contamination of witnesses in the case, whether it

6 is for the prosecution or for the defence.

7 We would like to bring to the court's attention,

8 and I have provided the prosecution with two articles

9 that have been in the clipping service provided to us by

10 the Tribunal. One of the articles -- we have the

11 English translation of it too. We will provide that to

12 the court after the prosecution gets through looking at

13 it. One of the articles is by -- The Congress of the

14 Serb Unity and Association of the Camp Prisoners warn

15 the Celebici victims. It says: "Stay away from

16 lawyers." It is dated May 25th, 1996, this article. I

17 will present the whole article to the court in a

18 moment.

19 There is another article, which is the newest

20 article -- do you have it, Tom? I have it. I am sorry,

21 your Honours. It is dated March 30th, 1997. It comes

22 from the newspaper clipping from the Belgrade Daily

23 newspaper. It talks about the testimony of Grosdana

24 Cecez and the testimony of Mirko Babic, and it also

25 talks about a counsellor named Slobodan Stojanovic, who

1 represents the Serbian witnesses, victims for the

2 International Tribunal, and how he coaches them, how he

3 talks to them, and further I think taints their

4 testimony in a way that has yet to be proven, but

5 I believe if we could have these people come forward --

6 they may even be in the court room today. The edition

7 of the Belgrade Evening News talks about a Serbian

8 attorney, Slobodan Stojanovic, who discussed the

9 testimony of Grosdana Cecez and Mirko Babic. In that

10 story Mr. Stojanovic says that they did not tell half the

11 story that they knew because they were too embarrassed

12 or because they did not feel like it was worth

13 repeating.

14 Additionally, on April 18th, 1997, which is from

15 our press clippings from the Tribunal, the Information

16 Office translated the Editiona Politika, which is a

17 story that quotes Dusika Bojic, the Secretary of the

18 Association of Detainees, discussing the testimony of

19 Witness N and Milojka Antic. In the article Mr. Bojic is

20 quoted as saying Witness N is the Association's key

21 witness. Mr. Bojic is further quoted as stating that

22 Witness N went through terrible tortures, and he further

23 indicates that he had access to the witness statements

24 of other witnesses who placed Ms. Antic in Celebici.

25 Rule 90(d) is being violated by persons

1 unconnected with the Office of the Prosecutor or the

2 Tribunal informing witnesses of the contents of prior

3 witness statements. It also is possible that someone

4 outside the Tribunal is preparing the witnesses for

5 their testimony and helping them shade their testimony

6 or even commit perjury. The Association of Detainees

7 now claim that their witnesses have told the OTP in

8 their written statements and they are alleging that they

9 have had testimony to statements that nobody else has

10 had access to. Also, if you look back on the testimony

11 of Mirko Babic and Ms. Cecez, a lot of it seemed

12 memorised. When asked outside her direct testimony

13 about questions, she would say she did not remember or

14 did not recall. It was very difficult for either one of

15 them to depart from the script.

16 Anyway, we feel that also they have had

17 discussions with Ms. Cecez and then discussed Ms.

18 Cecez's testimony with Ms. Antic, because she was well

19 aware that the defence had access to the medical records

20 and had time to prepare for that testimony coming up.

21 We are certainly not laying any suspicion on the

22 prosecution whatsoever, but we ask this court to take

23 into consideration the fact that by videolink testimony,

24 we have no access to these witnesses, that the

25 Association of Serbian witnesses has now told all the

1 witnesses not to talk to the defence attorneys and also

2 that because of the probability, the high probability,

3 with this association of tampering with the witnesses in

4 some sort, we feel it more desirable, and of course

5 under Rule 21.4(e) the rights of the accused would be

6 better preserved, if we could also have the witnesses

7 present in the court room.

8 We ask that this court conduct a hearing into this

9 matter to make sure that each witness knows that they

10 are not supposed to be coached by any outside sources;

11 they are not supposed to get information other than

12 their own personal knowledge about their testimony in

13 the court room, and if the court adopts that Tadic

14 decision, then each witness should be given some kind of

15 document telling them what it is that their conduct is

16 expected in this court room.

17 I would like to introduce both of these articles

18 to the court for your consideration on this matter.

19 They have been interpreted. The prosecution has the

20 original documents over there, but we would like to have

21 both marked as defence exhibits and presented to the

22 court. I believe my learned colleague Mme Residovic may

23 have a few more words to add to this argument, but we

24 would like the court to please conduct an investigation

25 into this area also. That is one of our main reasons

1 why we think the videolink testimony is not appropriate

2 in this trial. Thank you.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, Ms Residovic. Can we hear you?

4 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): My learned colleague, Ms

5 McMurrey, has presented all the arguments on behalf of

6 the defence. Presenting our views regarding the

7 videolink, I had these arguments in mind, and we thought

8 that it was necessary for the Trial Chamber to hear

9 these arguments in much greater detail as they were

10 presented by Ms McMurrey. We feel that this is in the

11 interests of a fair trial.

12 As I said at the beginning, when I spoke as

13 defence counsel for Zejnil Delalic, anything that might

14 impair the fairness of the trial in this Tribunal we

15 will be focussing on, and we will appeal to the Trial

16 Chamber to hear our arguments and to pass a ruling in

17 that sense. The defence of Zejnil Delalic concurs fully

18 with the statements of the defence of Mr. Landzo.

19 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, outside of this, we have one

20 more request too, that since Witness N has been

21 described by this organisation as their key witness, who

22 has been prompted, that perhaps we could have a voir

23 dire examination of Witness N to determine whether or to

24 what extent he has visited with people outside of the

25 Office of the Prosecutor and outside of this Tribunal.

1 Thank you: if I might have the usher, I will

2 offer these articles to the court for their

3 consideration.

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. I think we will

5 read them later. I do not know what useful purpose it

6 will serve at this stage. We have heard all the

7 arguments. Do you want to make any replies?

8 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, just briefly. It is not entirely

9 clear to me how any of this is relevant to videolink

10 testimony, since videolink testimony occurs under the

11 direction of the court and there are people from the

12 Registry handling it. So we, in fact, do not see the

13 relevance of this. It seems more a closing argument.

14 With respect to the particular issues, there is --

15 as far as I can tell, there is nothing in those articles

16 which suggests that the witnesses have been discussing

17 their testimony with other witnesses or that they are

18 being coached or tailored. We certainly do not believe

19 that there is any evidence before this court either from

20 their own -- from how the witnesses appeared or even

21 when the defence has attempted to get into this on

22 cross-examination.

23 The association, as I understand it, is not a --

24 it is certainly not a part of the Tribunal, but it is a

25 voluntary association that certain witnesses have chosen

1 to belong to. I do not believe it is within this

2 court's -- not authority, but I do not believe there is

3 any need for this court to get into what they have

4 done. The issue is: are the witnesses telling the

5 truth? Has anyone told them what to say? I can assure

6 the court that the Association does not have access to

7 any Office of the Prosecutor's statements and any

8 statements being referred to would be separate ones,

9 which we believe in some instances there are and have

10 been given to the defence.

11 So, your Honours, we do not believe that there is

12 anything suggesting that anything improper has happened

13 with respect to any of the witnesses, and, as far as the

14 allegation that an organisation in the US may have

15 advised witnesses to not speak with defence attorneys,

16 again that is certainly the office of -- I think it is

17 agreed that the Office of the Prosecutor has never done

18 that, but if an association decides to give advice,

19 I think it is up to the witness to take it or not take

20 it, but I do not believe that there is anything per se

21 improper in doing that.

22 So your Honours can look at the articles, but when

23 the prosecution has briefly looked at them, we have not

24 seen any evidence that anything that has gone on before

25 this court -- that the witnesses have behaved improperly

1 or that there has been any violation whatsoever of any

2 of the court's -- the Tribunal's rules, including Rule

3 90. I certainly believe the defence has and in

4 appropriate circumstances can continue to cross-examine

5 on that issue, but I do not believe anything further is

6 required.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. I am very

8 grateful for the assistance of all counsel in these

9 applications. Fortunately this is not the first time an

10 application of this nature has been presented and

11 I think it is necessary to understand that this Trial

12 Chamber will protect the interests of both the accused

13 persons, the witnesses and the prosecution also. It is

14 an impartial Trial Chamber, as the Tribunal is, and in

15 coming to our decision we have taken particular care to

16 ensure that none of the rights of the accused persons is

17 affected by the measure we adopt.

18 Now possibly there might be some misunderstanding

19 of the nature of the videolink conference. The Registry

20 of this Tribunal is fully in charge of the videolink

21 conference even outside the Trial Chamber here. A

22 member of the Registry will be sent abroad and will

23 conduct the examination and the arrangement for the

24 videolink conference. For whatever it may mean, there

25 is the assurance that the organisation will be perfect

1 and counsel will be able to cross-examine, see the

2 accused persons in the videolink, and the Trial Chamber

3 will be sitting to determine the nature of the

4 examination of the witnesses.

5 Now, the argument about witness tampering, that

6 might be quite new. I would not know. Perhaps

7 prosecution might also not know. Referring the Trial

8 Chamber into instituting an inquiry into that is

9 unnecessarily expanding our own horizon. Unless there

10 is sufficient evidence to show that any such thing is

11 going on and not that any meddlesome internal person is

12 doing that, there cannot be made out. In the present

13 circumstances of the conflict going on anything can

14 happen and one does not rely on much of the information

15 which is being dished out from all corners. As far as

16 we are concerned, we are more interested in the motion

17 before us and we deal with it in accordance with the

18 Rules and the Statutes of this court, of this Trial

19 Chamber I mean.

20 Now, the main argument has been that it is a

21 violation of Article 21.4(e). We do not think that is

22 correct, because the accused persons have all

23 opportunities to cross-examine and examine the witnesses

24 and the Trial Chamber also has an opportunity of

25 observing the demeanour of the witnesses. So no

1 provision is violated. For the inconvenience which

2 might be suggested, we have looked into it and we have

3 come to the conclusion that this is not outweighed by

4 the benefit that might arise from protecting the

5 witnesses and the interest involved.

6 So we agree with the prosecution application that

7 a video conference will be organised for K and L. M,

8 who was formerly included in the whole arrangement, the

9 prosecution has withdrawn its application, because the

10 circumstances are no longer the same. We grant the

11 application to issue the video conference. The Registry

12 will be informed to proceed accordingly.

13 Now, before we conclude this aspect, I have to

14 apologise, because my familiarity with this body is

15 breeding a little contempt in that I did not ask for

16 representation when we started. Counsel did not

17 announce their presence, both the prosecution and the

18 defence. I assume we have all been the same. I appeal

19 to everybody to forgive and kindly announce their

20 presence.

21 MR. OSTBERG: Thank you, your Honour. I will do that. I am

22 Eric Ostberg and I am accompanied in this trial by my

23 learned colleagues Mr. Giuliano Turone, Mrs. Teresa

24 McHenry and our case manager, Ms. Elles van

25 Dusschoten. Thank you, your Honour.

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Can we now hear the defence?

2 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): My name is Edina

3 Residovic, defence counsel of Zejnil Delalic. With me

4 is my colleague, Eugene O'Sullivan, Professor of

5 Criminal Law, and our colleague, Ekrem Galijatovic, will

6 not be participating for a time in the hearings in this

7 Trial Chamber, and we will announce his repeated

8 appearance in due time to the court. Thank you.

9 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I am Michael Greaves. I appear

10 on behalf of the defendant Mucic, and I am assisted

11 today by Mrs. Mira Tapuskovic, who appears as my legal

12 assistant in this case. He is also represented by Mr.

13 Branoslav Tapuskovic, who is lead counsel in the case,

14 but who is not present in court at the present time.

15 MR. KARABDIC (in interpretation): My name is Salih Karabdic,

16 defence counsel of the accused Mr. Hazim Delic. With me

17 in the team is Mr. Tom Moran, lawyer from Houston,

18 Texas.

19 MR. BRACKOVIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your

20 Honours. My name is Mustafa Brackovic, attorney from

21 Sarajevo, defending the accused Esad Landzo, together

22 with my learned colleague, Cynthia McMurrey, from the

23 United States. Thank you.

24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. I am happy that

25 you accept my apology for that.

1 We can now continue with our last witness and

2 I think break in about an hour's time. Can we have the

3 witness?

4 Witness N (continued)

5 Examined by MR. TURONE (continued)

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Would you kindly swear the witness?

7 THE REGISTRAR: I wish to remind you that you are still

8 testifying under oath.

9 MR. TURONE: May I proceed, your Honour?

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.

11 MR. TURONE: Thank you. So, Mr. N, last time you told us

12 something about your valuables having been taken from

13 you. Now my question is: did you ever get your

14 property back?

15 A. (In interpretation): no.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Would the witness

17 please move closer to the microphone?

18 A. I never received my property back.

19 Q. Okay. Thank you. My next and I would say last question

20 now. For the convenience of the Chamber and the defence

21 lawyers I am referring to the transcript on page 1914.

22 When I asked the witness:

23 "Do you remember approximately when you saw

24 Mr. Mucic for the first time?",

25 you answered:

1 "I don't know the exact date."

2 Now my question is: do you remember roughly in

3 which month you saw Mr. Mucic for the first time?

4 A. I cannot remember exactly which month it could have

5 been.

6 Q. All right, your Honour. My examination-in-chief is

7 finished. Thank you very much.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much, Mr. Turone. Has

9 the defence decided the order of their

10 cross-examination?

11 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, your Honour. We will proceed in the

12 following way. First, counsel for Mr. Mucic; second,

13 counsel for Mr. Delic; third, counsel for Mr. Landzo; and,

14 fourth, counsel for Mr. Delalic.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr. Greaves, you can now take the

16 witness.

17 Cross-examined by MR. GREAVES

18 MR. GREAVES: I am reminded to ask that the screen is

19 preventing Mr. Mucic from seeing the witness giving his

20 evidence. I would ask that he be able to do that

21 please. Perhaps your court usher can just make a slight

22 adjustment to make sure that he can see him.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: On the right side.

24 MR. GREAVES: It may be if I use the podium it will be

25 simpler. It is extremely loud and I have got a terrible

1 echo in my ... thank you.

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can control the sound.

3 MR. GREAVES: Yes. Mr. N, I want to ask you, first of all,

4 please, about the two interrogations which were carried

5 out with you at Celebici camp, about which you told us

6 when you were here some time ago. Do you remember

7 giving evidence about those two interviews?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The first of those two interviews was carried out by a

10 man you told us Mladen Zovko; is that right?

11 A. The first was by Mladen -- the first interrogation was

12 by Mladen Zovko.

13 Q. The second interrogation was carried out just prior to

14 your release by Pavo Mucic; is that right?

15 A. No. It was roughly some time in August. After that

16 I was transferred to another prison, to the sports hall.

17 Q. I am sorry. You are quite right. It was before your

18 transfer to the sports hall, the point I make is this:

19 the interrogation by Mr. Mucic, that was just before you

20 were moved from Celebici to the other camp?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. You have cleared up the bad question that

23 I asked and I apologise for asking it badly, Mr. N.

24 The two interrogations, Mr. N, would it be right to

25 say that they were quite different in their nature?

1 A. I cannot remember exactly whether they were different.

2 Q. Can I help you about this: the interview that you had

3 with Mr. Mucic, would you accept that that was a very

4 short interview?

5 A. It was short.

6 Q. Just two or three very quick questions being written

7 down?

8 A. There were several questions. I don't know exactly.

9 Q. But that interview was very much shorter than the one

10 that had been conducted by Mladen Zovko?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. The interview with Mladen Zovko, was that an unpleasant

13 experience for you?

14 A. When Mladen Zovko interrogated me, I had before that

15 been beaten up, so I can't remember very well what he

16 asked me even.

17 Q. Did it last for a long time?

18 A. Maybe roughly about an hour.

19 Q. The interview with Mr. Mucic lasted how long?

20 A. Maybe about 20 minutes or half an hour.

21 Q. I want to ask you this question now, and it is the last

22 one that I am going to ask you, Mr. N: it is right, is

23 it not, that some time during your stay in Celebici you

24 heard that Pavo Mucic had issued orders that no one

25 should be beaten. Do you accept that?

1 A. I heard of that, but I personally was beaten up after

2 those orders. I heard one of the guards say that orders

3 had come after the International Red Cross visit that

4 nobody should beat us, but I was beaten by Kemal Mr.dzic,

5 a guard, and Samir Honda.

6 Q. That may well be so, but the point is this, is it not,

7 that you heard that Pavo Mucic had issued such orders?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. No further questions.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you. Mr. Moran?

11 Cross-examined by MR. MORAN

12 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, if I can get a second to be

13 situated with earphones and things ... may it please the

14 court.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can take the witness.

16 MR. MORAN: Good morning, Mr. N.

17 A. Good morning.

18 Q. My name is Tom Moran and, as I am sure you noticed,

19 I represent Hazim Delic in this case. I am going to ask

20 you some questions and if you do not understand one of

21 them, will you stop me and ask me to explain it or break

22 it down, or whatever it takes, so you understand the

23 question that is asked; will you do that for me?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Would you just answer the question that I ask? Some of

1 them may just call for a "yes" or "no". Could you just

2 answer those with just "yes" or "no"?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you very much, sir. First thing I would like to

5 talk about is: you arrived in Celebici on May 23rd; is

6 that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You were taken to Hangar 22?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. That was the day that your property was taken; is that

11 correct?

12 A. That evening.

13 Q. So it was the evening of 23rd May 1992?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. You did not see Mr. Delic there at that time,

16 did you?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Okay. Let us go on to another subject. Let us talk a

19 little bit about the death of Scepo Gotovac; okay? As

20 I recall when you testified here last week, you

21 testified that when he was brought back into the hangar

22 that he had some kind of a badge nailed to his head; is

23 that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you testified at that time that you did not recall

1 whether it was an SDA badge or an SDS badge; is that not

2 correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. If I showed you an SDA badge, would you recognise one of

5 them?

6 A. I don't know that.

7 Q. If the usher could show him one, I have one in my

8 pocket.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I thought he said "no".

10 MR. MORAN: That is fine, your Honour.

11 A. I said that I did not know whether I would be able to.

12 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, whatever pleases the court. If I

13 can show it to him, I have it. If it would not be

14 helpful, that is fine too.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Well, it depends on you, because from

16 his answers -- it depends what you think you can get out

17 of it.

18 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, if the usher could show it to him.

19 We can mark it, if the court desires, and put it into

20 evidence.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: As what? (Badge handed to witness).

22 MR. MORAN: Is that the kind of badge?

23 A. I don't know if this is the one that was there. There

24 must be different kinds of badges.

25 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Do you remember talking to the

1 investigators from the Office of the Prosecutor on

2 February 23rd and 24th 1996 about that?

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can return his badge to him.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please, your Honour.

5 A. I don't know the exact date.

6 MR. MORAN: But you remember meeting with the Office of the

7 Prosecutor back in February of 1996. There was an

8 investigator there and an interpreter there; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was there anyone present during the interview?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you remember at that time you told them that it was

14 an SDS Bosnian-Serb political party badge that was

15 nailed to that man's forehead?

16 A. I don't remember.

17 Q. Has anyone talked to you about your testimony here today

18 in preparation for your testimony here today?

19 A. No, not now.

20 Q. No one at all?

21 A. Well, no one.

22 Q. So, for instance, you did not talk to Mr. Turone about

23 your testimony here today?

24 A. Not today.

25 Q. Okay. About your testimony here before this Tribunal

1 have you talked to anyone about your testimony before

2 the Tribunal here?

3 A. Well, yes.

4 Q. Who all was that?

5 A. With Mr. Giuliano.

6 Q. Was there anyone else that you discussed it with?

7 A. Well, no.

8 Q. Did anyone tell you that counts 1 and 2 of the

9 indictment allege specifically that an SDA badge was

10 nailed to that man's head?

11 A. Can you repeat this question, please?

12 Q. Sure. I am happy to. Did anyone tell you, after you

13 made your statement in February 1996, that count --

14 where you said that it was an SDS badge that was nailed

15 to Mr. Gotovac's head, that counts 1 and 2 of the

16 indictment, specifically paragraph 16 of the indictment,

17 say that the badge involved was an SDA badge?

18 A. No, nobody told me that.

19 Q. Your Honour, I am about to mention something that

20 I think we might want to go into private session for one

21 question. If we just turn off the audio outside?

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. Can we get into private

23 session. Tell them.

24 (In closed session)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. We can return to

11 open session

12 (In open session)

13 MR. MORAN: When Mr. Gotovac was taken out and beaten, that

14 incident that you recounted when you testified here last

15 week, who else would have seen that? Who else could

16 have seen that?

17 A. For Mr. Scepo Gotovac?

18 Q. That is correct, sir.

19 A. It could be seen by Mirko Babic and a group of men who

20 were sitting there in those rows next to the door.

21 Q. They could see just as well as you could?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You said that -- you testified that at some point

24 Mr. Delic came to you and asked you about some injuries

25 that you had received; is that not correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you get some medical care in any relationship to the

3 time after that? For instance, after Mr. Delic talked to

4 you?

5 A. I was taken to Number 22, where there were doctors Relja

6 and Petko, and there they changed the bandage that I had

7 on my arm. They did not have any other supplies to do

8 anything further.

9 Q. So immediately after Mr. Delic talked to you you received

10 what medical care was available?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You also testified about one incident where you say that

13 Mr. Delic beat you. Is that the incident you recounted

14 in your statement, where he talked to you about not

15 being allowed to walk around the Hangar 6?

16 A. Can you repeat this?

17 Q. Sure. I am happy to. You testified last week that

18 Mr. Delic personally beat you on one occasion. Do you

19 remember that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. That was the incident that you talked about in your

22 statement, where he said that prisoners were not

23 supposed to be walking around -- moving around inside

24 Hangar 6; is that not correct?

25 A. Yes, yes.

1 Q. In fact, that was the rule in Hangar 6, was it not?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And, in fact, you had violated that rule, had you not?

4 A. I was not moving.

5 Q. That is fine, sir. By the way, from your experience

6 being around the Celebici camp, was that camp, in your

7 opinion, a place that was designed to hold large numbers

8 of prisoners, or was it designed to do something else?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Well, for instance, from what you saw of the camp, were

11 there facilities that you would expect to see if a large

12 number of people were going to be kept there or

13 stationed there, barracks and showers and toilet

14 facilities and kitchens and recreational facilities and

15 that kind of thing?

16 A. I know that there was a room where there was the

17 administration building. I know that there was a mess

18 hall there, and there was also a toilet in there, but

19 for the rest I don't know.

20 Q. But you never saw large numbers of facilities for things

21 like toilets, or showers, or anything like that, did

22 you?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And, in fact, that place was designed -- the camp, when

25 it was built, was designed to do things other than have

1 large numbers of people living there; is that not right?

2 A. That I don't know.

3 Q. The food you received at Celebici, sir, do you know how

4 it compared to the food that the guards were eating,

5 whether you had greater rations or smaller rations than

6 the guards had?

7 A. I don't know what the guards were getting, but our food

8 was horrible. We would have a slice of bread and later

9 there was a period of three days and nights where we had

10 no food.

11 Q. Your Honour, at this point we will pass the witness.

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Any other cross-examination?

13 MS. McMURREY: Yes, your Honour.

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Take the witness.

15 Cross-examined by Ms McMurrey

16 MS. McMURREY: Good afternoon, Witness N. I am going to ask

17 you --

18 A. Good morning.

19 Q. You are right. I want to ask you to give me the same

20 courtesy that you gave Mr. Moran also and please attempt

21 to listen to the question and give the answer to the

22 question I am asking and then we will both be finished

23 before lunch, I think. Can you do that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. You stated earlier that the only person that

1 you spoke to before you came to testify before this

2 Tribunal was Mr. Giuliano Turone; is that correct?

3 A. I talked in the period before with -- and I can't recall

4 the names -- the gentleman asked me about that, but

5 I know that here I only talked to Mr. Giuliano.

6 Q. Let us go back to before you arrived in The Hague. You

7 know you spoke to the investigators for the prosecution,

8 did you not, in 1996?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You also spoke to a Dusika Bojic, who is Secretary of

11 the Association of Detainees, did you not?

12 A. No.

13 Q. So you never spoke to that person?

14 A. I have heard of this person, but I have not personally

15 spoken to her.

16 Q. Did you speak to a representative of hers before you

17 came to testify at this Tribunal?

18 A. I don't know who her representative is.

19 Q. You discussed this case with someone from the

20 Association of Detainees in Belgrade, did you not?

21 A. Not this case.

22 Q. Not your testimony, not the occurrence that happened in

23 Celebici?

24 A. Not about the testimony, but we talked about what

25 happened to me personally.

1 Q. You talked to them about the testimony of other

2 witnesses too, did you not?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You spoke to a man named Slobodan Stojanovic, did you

5 not?

6 A. No.

7 Q. So you never spoke to the attorney for the Association

8 of Detainees, did you? Is that what your testimony is?

9 A. I did not.

10 Q. Is it your testimony before this court today that you

11 have never been told what other witnesses have testified

12 to or will testify to in this Tribunal?

13 A. Not that.

14 Q. You have never been informed about any testimony of

15 anybody else before this Tribunal, only yours?

16 A. Not to me.

17 Q. Thank you very much. Now you stated before that your

18 occupation is still that of a refugee, but you have

19 training as a machinist and training in the restaurant

20 industry, do you not?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. It has been five years since your release from Celebici,

23 has it not?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So who is it that pays for you to continue being a

1 refugee?

2 A. I don't know that. I have no financial help. I work as

3 a waiter and I sort of make ends meet.

4 Q. You are no longer a refugee. You have a job now at this

5 point, do you not?

6 A. It is not a steady job. I make ends meet, and, of

7 course, I still am a refugee. I have nothing of my own.

8 Q. I want to go back to before the war started. You were a

9 member -- you served in the ex-JNA, did you not?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. That ex-JNA was really the Serbian JNA in 1992, was it

12 not?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Are you telling this court it was not predominantly

15 Serbian in 1992?

16 A. That I don't know, but I know that there were Muslims

17 and Croats in the JNA in 1992.

18 Q. You served in the area of Mostar in the fight against

19 the Croats for Dubrovnik and that area, did you not?

20 A. No. That is not correct. In 1987/1988 I did my

21 military duty in Tolmin in Slovenia.

22 Q. Thank you. As a JNA soldier you are aware that ordinary

23 soldiers are meant to follow orders, are they not?

24 A. Can you repeat the question, please?

25 Q. Ordinary soldiers -- you were an ordinary soldier in the

1 JNA, were you not?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. As an ordinary soldier, you have to follow the orders of

4 your superior, do you not?

5 A. It depends.

6 Q. Are you saying that you did not follow the orders of

7 your superior?

8 A. Whatever I considered as something that I should do,

9 I did that, but if there was something that for me

10 personally was something I shouldn't do, I would not.

11 Q. You would be punished if you did not follow orders,

12 would you not?

13 A. It depends. If I was right, I would not.

14 Q. You said you are from the village of Viniste; is that

15 right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In a little while after lunch I would like to show you a

18 map to show where it is. It is in the middle of the

19 area just north -- well, it is in the middle of the area

20 between Bradina and Donje Selo, is it not?

21 A. It depends on the position that you are looking from.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 Your Honour, if I might ask the usher to put this

24 on the ELMO, I would like for him to demonstrate where

25 his village is, so we can show why there was probably no

1 armed conflict there. Thank you. This is an exhibit

2 that has already been introduced in Ms Calic's

3 testimony.

4 A. (Pointing).

5 Q. Thank you. Viniste is a very small hamlet, is it not?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you just demonstrate one more time on this, right

8 there on the map, you can see Viniste up in the

9 mountains; right? Would you demonstrate one more time

10 where it is located, please?

11 A. (Pointing).

12 Q. Thank you. Viniste -- is it not true that on May 19th

13 1992, that all of the military-aged men from Viniste had

14 already gone to Donje Selo; is it not?

15 A. Not correct.

16 Q. There were no fighting-aged men left in your village the

17 day that the village was taken over, was there?

18 A. I said already that there were military manoeuvres going

19 past our village, and most of the people from that area

20 were within the Homolje and Galjevo area, which was

21 Muslim.

22 Q. In fact, most of the people had already left the village

23 and gone to either Cerici or Donje Selo, had they not?

24 A. No.

25 Q. There was no armed conflict in your village, was there?

1 A. No.

2 Q. You said that you were arrested in the -- arrested with

3 Branko and Jordan Gotovac, did you not?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So if Branko Gotovac stated that he had not seen you

6 until he got out of the van at Celebici, he would not be

7 speaking the truth, would he?

8 A. That I don't know, but Branko and myself and his son,

9 Jordan, were all in the same vehicle, but it is possible

10 that he did not notice it. Maybe he was afraid or

11 something. He was in the vehicle with us.

12 Q. So if Mr. Gotovac said that you were arrested with his

13 son Jordan at Dervo Badzac's house in Homolje, that

14 would not be the truth, would it?

15 A. Can you repeat?

16 Q. So if Branko Gotovac said you were arrested with his

17 son, Jordan, at Dervo Badzak's place, B-A-D-Z-A-K's

18 place, in Homolje, he would not be speaking the truth;

19 is that what you are saying?

20 A. The truth is that we were arrested in the house.

21 Q. You were arrested in your home or in the home of Dervo

22 Badzak?

23 A. That is a mistake. Dervo -- it was the house of Hasib

24 Jahic. They brought us there in order to protect us

25 from this military that was passing through our hamlet

1 and the day before, in fact, the same day, they were

2 taken to Konjic and released by the HVO and the TO.

3 Q. Then on your final arrest, you are stating to this

4 court, that you were with Branko Gotovac and Jordan

5 Gotovac at this gentleman's house just described. Was

6 it in Homolje?

7 A. This was in Galjevo. It is another hamlet just like

8 Viniste, near Homolje, maybe 100 metres away. The

9 distance between Galjevo and Homolje is 100 metres.

10 Q. Your testimony is arrested with Branko and Jordan

11 Gotovac, finally ultimately to go to Celebici at this

12 location in this village you just described?

13 A. Jordan and myself were in the house. Branko was in

14 Homolje in the house of Emir Alic. That same evening we

15 were together taken to Celebici.

16 Q. So you were not really arrested with them. You were

17 arrested separately and then put together; is that your

18 testimony?

19 A. No. I said that Jordan and I were together in this

20 house and this is the third time illustrating this, and

21 Branko was in Emir Alic's house, but we were taken all

22 together to Celebici. I hope I was clear.

23 Q. Okay. So it is clear that you were not with Branko

24 Gotovac at the time that you were arrested, were you?

25 A. At the moment I was in the van with Jordan and the van

1 was in front of the house where Branko was staying.

2 That is Emir Alic's house. Then he was put into the van

3 there.

4 Q. The gentleman's house where you and Jordan Gotovac were

5 located, he is a Muslim too, is he not?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In fact, at one time you and Branko Gotovac and the

8 Muslim soldiers, they were all drinking coffee at the

9 home of Branko Gotovac, were they not?

10 A. Yes. That same day when we were returned from Konjic we

11 first went to Branko Gotovac's house and on the

12 suggestion of these people, who had taken us back from

13 Konjic, we were in Branko Gotovac's house and then we

14 moved to Homolje in order to get protection so that we

15 would not be taken from Viniste again.

16 Q. So your arrest on that day was Serbians, Muslims,

17 friendly, no violence, and the atmosphere was

18 controlled, was it not?

19 A. In this village there was no armed conflict. The

20 relationships were friendly until the day when we were

21 taken to Celebici.

22 Q. Thank you. I suppose you did not know that Jordan

23 Gotovac was arrested in the possession of a

24 semi-automatic weapon, did you?

25 A. That I am not familiar with.

1 Q. I want to go back a little bit. You were born in

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, were you not?

3 A. I was born in Konjic.

4 Q. Okay. You could have voted in the referendum on March

5 1st, 1992, could you not?

6 A. I do not know.

7 Q. You could have voted in any election in

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, because you are a citizen of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina and you were of voting age, were you

10 not?

11 A. I participated in elections I do not know exactly now,

12 but in 1991. I did not participate in 1992.

13 Q. Thank you very much. You said you were not beaten when

14 you were arrested, nor when you were first taken to

15 Celebici; is that not true?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You said when you arrived at Celebici, you were placed

18 in Building Number 22, with some other detainees, were

19 you not?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You also stated that several nights later you heard some

22 -- you saw some people from Bradina being brought in,

23 did you not?

24 A. Not in the day-time. In the day-time, yes, I saw them

25 bringing in some people.

1 Q. You also testified that you knew these people from

2 Bradina, did you not?

3 A. Some of them.

4 Q. But you also stated that you did not know that they were

5 even from Bradina until later on when you got into

6 Building Number 6; is that not true?

7 A. Yes. Not that I did not know. I assumed they were from

8 Bradina, but later I saw some of them.

9 Q. Also you state that in Building Number 22, when you were

10 first placed in there, there were about 30-40 other

11 detainees in the building with you; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So there were not over 100 detainees in that building

14 during that time, were there?

15 A. At the time I arrived there were roughly that many that

16 I said, and I know that at one time, while I was in that

17 building, there were about 100 people.

18 Q. So are you saying that the population in Building Number

19 22 increased after you arrived, or after you went to

20 Hangar Number 6? Which one?

21 A. While I was in the Building Number 22 the number of

22 people increased.

23 Q. You and Mr. Branko Gotovac were neighbours and friends,

24 were you not?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. You knew about his hernia before you were taken to

2 Celebici, did you not?

3 A. I'm not familiar with that.

4 Q. You have discussed your experiences in Celebici with him

5 since 1992, have you not?

6 A. I do not remember talking to him in particular, but

7 I know what happened to Branko in Celebici.

8 Q. Are you telling us that since 1992 in casual

9 conversation you and Mr. Gotovac have not told each other

10 what happened to each other in Celebici?

11 A. We did not have any reason to talk about those things,

12 because we saw what had happened to him and me.

13 Q. Now you described three serious beatings that you allege

14 you received while at Celebici, did you not?

15 A. I described all the torture I was subjected to. Some of

16 them I failed to mention, this beating where they hit

17 me. I mentioned the worst ones.

18 Q. That is what my question was. You described three very

19 serious beatings, did you not?

20 A. I described the beating up and the burning with a heated

21 knife.

22 Q. The first beating that you described, I believe you said

23 took place on May 24th, 1992, did it not?

24 A. Yes. Yes.

25 Q. On that day you were beaten by the HOS soldiers, were

1 you not?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Well, the soldiers that you were beaten by were not

4 merely the people present in Celebici camp, were they?

5 They were MUP representatives and Croatian soldiers too,

6 were they not?

7 A. I don't know. I just know that I was beaten by Bato

8 Alikadic and Almir Nuhic, and the only Croat there was

9 Pero Blazevic, known as Srbija, as far as I knew.

10 Q. Thank you. In fact, Esad Landzo was nowhere around

11 Celebici during this period of the time, was he?

12 A. I do not know that.

13 Q. But you did not -- he was not beating you that day, was

14 he?

15 A. On that day, no.

16 Q. And, in fact, you never saw Esad Landzo present in the

17 camp until he came with some other guards around the

18 middle of June, did you?

19 A. I don't know the date exactly when he came.

20 Q. But it was after -- I am sorry -- but it was after you

21 were taken to Hangar Number 6, was it not?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You said you received broken ribs, severe beating in the

24 kidney area, a cracked jaw, two teeth knocked out and

25 several teeth cracked, all from the beating on May 24th,

1 did you not?

2 A. Yes, on May 24th two teeth were broken and my jaw was

3 fractured. After that I was beaten up several times and

4 I described those incidents in my statement, one of

5 those beatings.

6 Q. In the beating on May 24th, that is when you were beaten

7 so severely that you lost control of your kidneys; is

8 that not correct?

9 A. No. The second time when I was beaten up I had no

10 control over my kidneys.

11 Q. Well, you said on May 24th that in your testimony last

12 week that after the beating on May 24th your friends had

13 had to carry you to the toilet and you could not eat or

14 drink. In fact, they dropped some milk and some liver

15 on your lips; is that not correct?

16 A. Yes. Yes.

17 Q. You said you remained in Building Number 22 for 13 days

18 and then you were transferred to Hangar Number 6. So

19 that would be somewhere after June 5th, would it not?

20 A. Roughly 13 days. I did not say exactly 13 days, and

21 I was transferred. I don't know the date. I was moved

22 to Hangar Number 6.

23 Q. I would like to ask you some questions about Hangar

24 Number 6 right now. You spent most of your time there,

25 did you not?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And that is -- what would you estimate the dimensions of

3 that building were?

4 A. Well, roughly it was about 25 metres long and about 13,

5 14 wide. I didn't have a meter to measure it, so I

6 don't know exactly. That is my rough estimate.

7 Considering the condition I was in, I need not

8 necessarily know exactly.

9 Q. There were windows at the top of this building, if you

10 can call them windows, really more like air vents, that

11 were at least 3 metres above the ground, were they not?

12 A. I don't know exactly how high up they were but they were

13 in the corner, something like that.

14 Q. But you could not see out of them, could you?

15 A. Those windows were facing behind the part of the -- the

16 area where people were beaten. People were taken out of

17 the hangar and beaten and there were no windows there.

18 Q. The windows that you are describing, though, they were

19 too high for any human being to be able to see out of

20 without a ladder; is that not correct?

21 A. Nobody needed to look through those windows, because one

22 could not see anything through them anyway. There were

23 just some hangars further away.

24 Q. Were they too high to see out of or not?

25 A. I really don't know exactly. I never looked through

1 them.

2 Q. Now, the front of the hangar, or the walls of the

3 hangar, all four walls, there were no holes in the walls

4 that you could see out of, were there?

5 A. I didn't pay any attention, so I don't know whether

6 there were holes or not, any kinds of holes.

7 Q. And there was no electricity in Hangar Number 6, was

8 there?

9 A. I don't know, but the lights were never switched on for

10 us.

11 Q. So at day-time you had the natural light from the high

12 windows, but at night-time there was no electricity, no

13 light bulbs, no lights with which to see; is that

14 correct?

15 A. I don't know. I didn't notice. I'm speaking in my

16 personal name.

17 Q. Was there a light in the building at night or no light

18 in the building at night?

19 A. I didn't notice any light.

20 Q. Now you talked about the food being absolutely horrible,

21 did you not?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And the food came from outside of the camp, did it not?

24 A. I don't know where it came from.

25 Q. You knew that the food was not prepared in the camp, did

1 you not?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. You knew a young man named Sok, an Albanian, did you

4 not?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And he stayed at the Celebici camp after the JNA left,

7 did he not?

8 A. I don't know how he came to stay. I just know I would

9 see him there when I was brought there.

10 Q. And he was in charge of distributing the food in

11 Celebici, was he not?

12 A. I don't know that.

13 Q. Well, you knew that there were two prisoners from your

14 Hangar Number 6 that would come to the Albanian and get

15 the food and take it back to the hangar; is that not

16 right?

17 A. I know who went for the food, but I don't know where

18 they went.

19 Q. The names of the two prisoners who went for the food are

20 what?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I am asking you to please tell us the names of the

23 prisoners who went for the food, please.

24 A. I can.

25 Q. Okay. Please?

1 A. Ratko Cecez and Mladen Mrkajic went often.

2 Q. In fact, they were the representatives of the prisoners

3 in Hangar Number 6 that would communicate with the

4 guards, were they not?

5 A. I don't know whether they were representatives of the

6 prisoners.

7 Q. Mr. Esad Landzo never distributed any food, did he?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And he was just a prison guard, was he not?

10 A. I know that Esad Landzo was -- that he beat and tortured

11 prisoners. I don't know what he was.

12 Q. Do you remember our promise earlier that you would

13 answer my question. Esad Landzo was merely a prison

14 guard, was he not?

15 A. I don't know whether he was just a prison guard.

16 Q. Now, the people in charge of providing food for the

17 detainees and water for the detainees and medical

18 attention for the detainees, that would not be a prison

19 guard, would it?

20 A. I don't know who was responsible for that.

21 Q. You stated earlier that -- you drew a map and you showed

22 where you were sitting in the hangar in the summer of

23 1992, did you not?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You changed positions some time around 1st July, did you

1 not?

2 A. I don't know the exact date when I moved.

3 Q. I think it was some time during the middle of your stay

4 at Celebici that you changed positions; is that not what

5 you testified to last week?

6 A. I said roughly that it was then, but I don't know the

7 exact date.

8 Q. Now, you know that the prisoners were not allowed to

9 walk around Hangar Number 6 without permission, were

10 they?

11 A. Yes, there was a prohibition on movement in the hangar.

12 You weren't allowed to get up from your place either.

13 Q. Now, there was a time when you were allowed to wave and

14 communicate with your mother while you were in Hangar 6,

15 was there not?

16 A. On one occasion this was allowed, but I don't know who

17 of the guards was there at the time.

18 Q. You would not have been able to communicate with your

19 mother if you had not received permission to go to the

20 door and wave to her; is that not right?

21 A. No.

22 Q. In fact, you know that Esad Landzo was the one who gave

23 you permission to stand at the door for two or three

24 minutes and wave to your mother; is that not true?

25 A. It was not Esad Landzo.

1 Q. So are you telling this court under oath that Esad

2 Landzo -- that you did not tell Esad Landzo: "Thank you,

3 Zenga, for letting me see my mother. I won't forget

4 that ever." That is the truth, is it not?

5 A. Not for that. I do not remember saying that to him.

6 Q. Any guard who would have let you go to the door and let

7 you communicate to your mother, probably would have been

8 punished for that, would he not?

9 A. We did not manage to talk. We could just raise our hand

10 and I don't know what the consequences for the guard

11 could be.

12 Q. Now, last Monday, when you were giving testimony, you

13 were smiling at Mr. Landzo, were you not?

14 A. Yes, but because after all I survived, after all the

15 things he did to me. That's why I smiled.

16 Q. Now, the second beating that you described you allege

17 happened on July 15th, did you not?

18 A. I didn't say that the second beating happened on July

19 15th. On July 15th I was taken out and burnt with a

20 heated knife on my legs and arms.

21 Q. Well, I believe your testimony last Monday was that you

22 were taken out of the hangar and a gasmask was put on

23 your face. Is that not how it started?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Then you stated that the screw on the front of the

1 gasmask was tightened so you could not breathe. Is that

2 what you said?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Then you testified that there was a fire outside, that a

5 knife could be heated in; is that not true?

6 A. Yes. A piece of cloth was set fire to, first some paper

7 and then this cloth, some kind of a bag or something --

8 I don't remember was the material was. It was in this

9 fire that the knife was heated.

10 Q. So this was not a big bonfire or anything. This was a

11 linen bag that had been set on fire; is that what your

12 testimony is?

13 A. Yes, a linen bag was burning and in this fire the knife

14 was heated.

15 Q. So how long was this period of the alleged torture that

16 you described outside of Hangar 6? Five minutes, ten

17 minutes, fifteen minutes, 30 minutes?

18 A. Roughly about 30 minutes. I don't know exactly.

19 Q. Okay. You claim that Mr. Landzo heated this knife in

20 this fire of the burning bag and then he burned your

21 right hand; is that not what you stated?

22 A. First my left, then my right, then both my legs.

23 Q. Then you stated he heated the knife began in the fire

24 and then you stated he burned your left thigh; is that

25 correct?

1 A. Yes, it was my left hand, then he heated the knife

2 again, then my right hand, then the knife was heated

3 again, and then my left leg was burned below the knee,

4 and then two more burns on my left thigh and my right.

5 Q. Well, you are not telling this court there were sterno

6 inside that linen bag, are you?

7 A. I don't know what was there.

8 Q. So you have just described four times of heating a

9 burning knife all from the flame of a burning linen bag;

10 is that your testimony, over a 30 minute period?

11 A. I don't know exactly how many times he heated the knife,

12 but I know the first time he made three burns on my left

13 hand from this one heating. On my right hand he made

14 three or four burns. Again if you don't believe me, you

15 can look. You have the evidence. You have the

16 pictures.

17 Q. Well, I would like to look, but we talked about the

18 thighs before and I am going to spare both of us that

19 embarrassment right now. We are going to rely on

20 photographs later. Thank you, though.

21 All of this time, the 30 minutes that you have

22 been heating the knife, burning, heating the knife,

23 burning, heating the knife, burning, you have a gasmask

24 on and you cannot breathe; is that correct?

25 A. Yes. Occasionally he would take the stopper out so that

1 I could get some air, and when he made those burns, then

2 he would put the plug back in so that I couldn't scream

3 and I was, of course, choking, but I'm saying again I

4 didn't say that it was exactly 30 minutes. I said

5 roughly 30 minutes.

6 Q. Then you testified that the mask was removed and you

7 asserted that he hit you with a chain, did you not?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, the truth is there was not any chain around at

10 Celebici, was there?

11 A. I don't know, but a piece of chain about maybe 20 cms

12 long, which he took out on that occasion and started

13 hitting me with it on the neck. That I saw with my own

14 eyes and felt on my own skin.

15 Q. The truth is that the chain -- you were hit with a

16 chain, but it was on May 24th, and it was by Mr. Alikadic

17 and Nuhic, was it not?

18 A. No. On 24th I wasn't beaten with a chain. I was beaten

19 with a stick and a cable or whatever, but on this day,

20 when Esad Landzo burnt me, he hit me with a chain on the

21 neck.

22 Q. Now when you were in Hangar Number 6 -- and you walked

23 back to Hangar Number 6, did you not, after this

24 incident on July 15th?

25 A. Yes, on 15th.

1 Q. In fact, when you walked in, you stated last Monday that

2 your friend said: "Gosh! You escaped without any

3 problems, did you not, because we didn't hear you

4 scream?" Is that not what you stated?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So your friends must not have thought you were in very

7 much pain, did they?

8 A. They couldn't conclude that I had no pains, but it was

9 customary when people were taken out and beaten and

10 tortured we would hear the screams, but as I had a mask

11 over my head, they couldn't hear my voice. However,

12 when I showed them all those burns they were

13 flabbergasted, and the worst of it is that I was the

14 first victim. Afterwards others were victimised. There

15 was petrol poured over them and lit and in other ways --

16 Q. Excuse me. You knew another gentleman in Hangar

17 Number 6 named Miljanic, did you not?

18 A. Miljanic?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. Yes. Gojko Miljanic was there, his son Savo, Nedjo

21 Miljanic, Slovko Miljanic.

22 Q. In fact, the older men like Mr. Gojko Miljanic, or

23 whichever is the older Miljanic, they would save their

24 bread to eat at night, would they not?

25 A. I don't know that.

1 Q. In fact, you got in a fight with Mr. Miljanic, did you

2 not?

3 A. With Miljanic? Which Miljanic?

4 Q. The older gentleman Miljanic?

5 A. And his first name?

6 Q. I guess it is Gojko?

7 A. I think Gojko was dead by then. He died in his son's

8 arms.

9 Q. Well, one Mr. Miljanic you got in a fight with because --

10 it is Nedeljko Miljanic?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So you never got in a fight with Mr. Nedeljko Miljanic?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So if he stated that you -- well, if he had gone to the

15 guards and reported that you had been stealing the bread

16 from the old men, he would be lying then; is that what

17 you are saying?

18 A. That is not true, that I stole bread, because I couldn't

19 get up from my position, nor did any of the prisoners

20 steal.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think we can have a break for lunch

22 at this point. When we come back, you can continue with

23 your cross-examination.

24 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.

25 (1.00 pm)

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1 (2.30 pm)

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Kindly invite the witness. He is

3 still on his oath.

4 (Witness re-entered court)

5 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you that you are still testifying

6 under oath.

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can continue your

9 cross-examination.

10 MS. McMURREY: Thank you, your Honour. I believe that we

11 were about to talk about the third beating that you

12 described, but before I go into that one, I would like

13 to ask you: during this time you were beaten by the HOS

14 or MUP soldiers, when they put Serbian money in your

15 mouth and beat you, did they not?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Okay. Your Honours, I would like to bring out --

18 because I asked earlier about putting these on the video

19 thing, but Blaskic has the computer all tied up, so

20 I would like to bring out Prosecution Exhibit number 1

21 and ask that -- I think the Registrar will have to get

22 it out -- ask that drawing Number 7 be placed on the

23 ELMO?

24 JUDGE JAN: You mean photograph Number 7?

25 MS. McMURREY: Number 7 is the drawing of the inside, your

1 Honour.

2 JUDGE JAN: Quite right. It is Hangar Number 6.

3 MS. McMURREY: Yes, your Honour. It is the inside of

4 Hangar Number 6.

5 Witness N, you described two different locations,

6 one where you sat at the first of your stay at Celebici,

7 and one location where you stayed the second part of

8 your stay at Celebici. Can you, without making any

9 marks on, this because this is direct evidence, can you

10 point with your finger where inside the hangar was your

11 first location and then the second place that you sat?

12 A. I showed that last time. I thought it was not

13 necessary, but of course, I can do it. Roughly here

14 the first time and later here. (Pointing).

15 Q. The place where you sat the second time, which is

16 further back in the hangar, that is where you were

17 sitting when Mr. Esad Landzo first came to the camp, was

18 it not?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Okay. The second place that you were sitting, that is

21 where you were sitting at the time that Scepo Gotovac

22 was allegedly beaten; is that not true?

23 A. I don't know exactly whether I was there, but I do think

24 that it was in the first position that I was sitting at

25 the time.

1 Q. Can you show the court on this drawing, on this diagram,

2 where it was exactly that Mirko Babic was sitting?

3 A. I can. (Pointing).

4 Q. The truth is he was not in the second row?

5 A. Roughly here.

6 Q. He was in the third row back, was he not, not the first

7 row in the centre but the second row in the centre; is

8 that not true?

9 A. Mirko Babic was sitting in the second row in the middle

10 at first, roughly here. I can't tell you exactly. He

11 was facing this part of the hangar with his back. His

12 back was turned. (Pointing).

13 Q. Just for clarification, the first row was the group of

14 detainees against the wall. The second row was the row

15 closer to the door in the centre, and the third row was

16 the row in the centre that is furthest from the door.

17 That is where Mirko Babic was sitting, was it not?

18 A. He was not far from the door, because the difference

19 between this row and the other one was about a metre,

20 one and a half, so it wasn't far.

21 Q. So your testimony to this court was the two rows in the

22 centre were just one metre away from each other?

23 A. I am giving approximations. One metre, one and a

24 half. I don't know exactly. I didn't say it was one

25 metre.

1 Q. Okay. Could I please have the usher put Prosecution

2 Photograph number 27 onto the ELMO? No, that is not

3 number 27 according to my book. Yes. I cannot tell.

4 No, that is not the same photograph either that

5 I have. Oh, your Honour, I believe that the numbers we

6 have are different.

7 MR. TURONE: 27.

8 MS. McMURREY: Now, Witness N, can you look at this

9 photograph and do you recognise it?

10 A. The first or the second? The first or the second

11 photograph?

12 Q. The top one, the one at the top of the page.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. That is the front of Hangar Number 6, is it not?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. With your little pointer right there can you point on

17 this photograph where it is that the one opening that

18 was used in Hangar Number 6 was located?

19 A. What do you mean "opening"? You mean the door?

20 Q. Yes, I mean the door.

21 A. (Pointing).

22 Q. That is not a large hangar door, is it? It is a smaller

23 door, is it not?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Your testimony is that you could see out of this door

1 and see what was happening out of Hangar Number 6 when

2 you were in position number 1 in the hangar; is that

3 your testimony?

4 A. Yes. I could see in front of the door when they were

5 open.

6 Q. Now, the door opens not from the corner of the hangar

7 but it opens from the middle part of the hangar, does it

8 not?

9 A. I don't know exactly.

10 Q. The door does not swing open --

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can be running away with too many

12 imaginations here. This was a fairly difficult

13 thing. You cannot even know what the place looks

14 like. He has told you he could see from where he was

15 sitting. It depends on the way the door was opened.

16 If it was open, he might have seen it.

17 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, if I might, the way the door

18 opened obscures the way he would be able to see. If it

19 opens out --

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You did not open it, did you?

21 MS. McMURREY: No, but I know how it opens. I have a right

22 to test his knowledge.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You have too many rights. This is

24 not one of them. He has told you when the door was

25 open, he was able to see. You did not open the door

1 for him to see, so you do not know how much you opened

2 it for him to see.

3 MS. McMURREY: I am just trying to prove that if the door

4 were wide open that his line of vision is, one, obscured

5 by this hill here and, number two, that the door opens

6 in a way to limit his view, where all he has is the side

7 of the hill that he sees at that point. If the court

8 wants to cut me off from my questioning, fine.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If it is being unreasonable, I shall

10 tell you. If you want to push it, ask him.

11 MS. McMURREY: Does the door open from the corner of the

12 hangar out or does it open from the middle of the hangar

13 out?

14 A. I told you I don't know exactly which way it opens. I

15 didn't open it myself.

16 Q. But the truth is when you looked out of that hangar, all

17 you could see was the side of that hill, is it not?

18 A. No. We were not looking through the hangar, but through

19 the open door, so I could see in that direction what

20 there was in front of the door.

21 Q. Okay. Your Honour, could I please have Prosecution

22 photograph number 33?

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can have the exhibits -- you can

24 use as many of them as you want to. It is an

25 exhibit.

1 MS. McMURREY: I was just asking for him to place it onto

2 the ELMO for me, please.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can do that.

4 MS. McMURREY: Thank you. Now, Witness N, those windows

5 are the only windows on the front of this hangar, are

6 they not. I am referring to Prosecution witness (sic)

7 number 33 and Hangar Number 6.

8 A. Please repeat the question.

9 Q. The windows that you see here on the front of Hangar

10 Number 6 are the only windows on the front of Hangar

11 Number 6, are they not? I am referring to photograph

12 number 33, the Prosecution?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Those windows are --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Those windows are definitely too high for anybody to

17 look out of without a window (sic), are they not?

18 A. I don't know. I personally did not look. I didn't

19 even notice those windows.

20 Q. Okay. Let us go on to the third beating that you

21 described. That beating that you described was the day

22 that you said 22 people were taken out and beaten, were

23 they not?

24 A. Yes. It was the evening.

25 Q. That happened on July 17th, did it not?

1 A. I don't know. I didn't give the date.

2 Q. Well, you were given a reason why everybody was taken

3 out and beaten, were you not?

4 A. No.

5 Q. In fact, this was the day that the nine military police

6 were murdered near Bradina, is it not?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And you are positive that was not the same day?

9 A. It wasn't that day.

10 Q. You stated you were taken behind Hangar Number 6 and

11 another gasmask was placed over your head, did you not,

12 only this time it had a white cloth placed over the

13 front of it so you could not see; is that right?

14 A. Yes. I was taken out of the hangar, round the corner,

15 where the path led to the toilet, and that is where they

16 beat me from the front side of the hangar.

17 Q. When you say around the side, you can point on this

18 photograph where it was you were taken. You were taken

19 to the back left-hand side or right-hand side of the

20 hangar?

21 A. Here.

22 Q. You testified there were four or five people that held

23 you down and beat you; is that not true, with something

24 resembling a baseball bat?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Now you were --

2 A. It was a wooden object in the shape of a baseball bat,

3 and before that we were beaten with a baseball bat too.

4 Q. Now, you were not stripped naked at that time, were you?

5 A. Yes. They took off everything I had on me. They

6 forced me on my stomach and they beat me and they poured

7 water over me.

8 Q. The truth is that whatever happened back there, you do

9 not know who beat you. It just happened that the only

10 voice you recognised was Esad Landzo's; is that not

11 true?

12 A. No. Esad Landzo personally took me out of the hangar.

13 He put the mask on my head and Esad Landzo hit me

14 several times with his leg in the stomach and the ribs

15 until I fell, and Esad Landzo held me down until this

16 unknown -- while this unknown person was beating me.

17 Q. Okay. So now your story is that Esad Landzo held you

18 down while some unknown person beat you. Is that what

19 you are testimony is?

20 A. Yes. That's what I said, that Esad Landzo took me out

21 of the hangar, that there were another four or five

22 people there, that they held me and one of them was

23 beating me. So Esad Landzo was holding me down and two

24 or three other people, other persons. One was standing

25 on my legs and the other two on my hands.

1 Q. The truth is that once the gasmask was put on your face

2 and you had the white cloth over it, you do not know who

3 was beating you or who was holding you, do you?

4 A. I know that Esad Landzo was holding me, because when

5 they were beating me, he would speak some words that

6 I did not understand, but I recognised his voice.

7 Q. Let me ask you another question too. You have testified

8 many times about how you know that Mr. Landzo beat

9 people, because he took them out of the hangar. The

10 truth is that you assumed that Mr. Landzo was beating

11 people because he was the one who was ordered to take

12 the detainees out of the hangar; is that not true?

13 A. I don't know whether he was given such orders, but

14 Landzo came to the hangar often. He beat me in front

15 of all the prisoners. Afterwards he took me out and

16 beat me, but I don't know who gave him any orders and

17 whether those were orders that he was following.

18 Q. But this testimony that you just gave is certainly

19 different from your direct testimony a week ago Monday,

20 is it not?

21 A. Listen, after all, five years have gone by and what was

22 done to me during my stay in Celebici, it's a wonder

23 that I can talk at all and especially when I remember

24 all those things that I went through. This is the

25 clear evidence that can be confirmed by 200 people.

1 Q. You testified earlier that you did not know whether Esad

2 Landzo was a guard at Celebici or not. Was that not

3 your testimony?

4 A. No. I said that I didn't know whether he was a guard or

5 not. I just know that he beat people, that he came,

6 that he was there during that period non-stop. We were

7 all afraid.

8 Q. Now, Witness N, we had an agreement earlier that you

9 would answer my question. My question was: you said

10 earlier that you did not know whether Esad Landzo was a

11 prison guard or not. Did you or did you not say that?

12 A. No. I am repeating again what I already said. I do

13 not know whether he was a guard, but I know that he was

14 there. He beat people. He tortured people. I think

15 that is clear. I have nothing more to say.

16 Q. Now, Witness N, Mr. Landzo in 1992 was only 18 or 19

17 years old, was he not?

18 A. I don't know how old he was.

19 Q. But you knew he was very young, did you not?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. And in reality you don't know one way or the other

22 whether he was just following orders, do you?

23 A. No, I don't know.

24 Q. You stated you were outside with Branko and Danilo

25 Gotovac whenever Branko Gotovac was beaten. Is that

1 what your testimony was?

2 A. I said that I was with Branko Gotovac when Zenga beat

3 him, and on that occasion he stuck a match under my

4 thumbnail, after which I had a lot of trouble. It

5 became painful. It was very painful and it hasn't

6 healed properly to this day.

7 Q. So your testimony is that Branko Gotovac was outside

8 with you when this occurred. Is that your testimony?

9 A. Yes. Branko was there and Danilo, his son, was there

10 when this happened to me.

11 Q. So it is a little strange that Mr. Gotovac never

12 mentioned that incident, is it not?

13 MR. TURONE: Objection, your Honour.

14 JUDGE JAN: What is the objection?

15 MR. TURONE: He cannot be questioned about what other people

16 said.

17 MS. McMURREY: It is just his personal opinion about whether

18 it would be unusual that the other witness did not

19 mention it, if he was supposed to be present whenever

20 this occurred. I will change the question. When do

21 you allege that the incident involving fellatio

22 occurred? . Please do not mention any names, Witness

23 N.

24 A. Would you please repeat the question?

25 Q. When is it that you allege that the incident involving

1 the fellatio occurred and please do not mention any

2 names, just a date?

3 A. I don't know the date exactly.

4 Q. But you do know that you were sitting in your second

5 position in the hangar when that occurred, do you not?

6 A. I can't say for sure where I was sitting, but I know

7 I saw it and it's not important where I was sitting, but

8 I saw it and it was not just me who saw it; all the

9 prisoners who were there saw it.

10 Q. Okay. Last Monday on page 1913 of the court record you

11 stated that you personally viewed Mirko Babic, Vukasin

12 Mrkajic and Dusko Bendzo and one other person with their

13 pants still burning in the hangar. Did you not testify

14 to that on page 1913 of the court record?

15 A. I stated regarding Dusko Bendzo, I saw his pants

16 burning. As for Vukasin Mrkajic, I saw him when a fuse

17 was wound round him and a light was put to it and he was

18 running round. Regarding Mirko Babic, I saw burns.

19 Q. I am sorry. That is not my question. My question is:

20 you saw their pants still on fire in the hangar. Is

21 that your testimony?

22 A. I have just said I saw Dusko Bendzo's pants burning, and

23 in the case of Vukasin, he was naked to the waist and

24 this fuse was wound round his body and it was burning.

25 Mirko Babic, I saw the burn, the scar on his leg. I

1 didn't say that his pants were burning. Only Dusko

2 Bendzo's pants were burning inside. That is what I saw

3 and said.

4 Q. Now, you testified on Monday that Scepo Gotovac was

5 taken out of the hangar by Esad Landzo, did you not?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. The truth is that all you know is that Mr. Landzo took

8 him out of the hangar; is that not true?

9 A. I know that he was beaten by Esad Landzo there and in

10 front of the hangar and that he had taken him out.

11 That's what I know, and I also know that there was this

12 badge that had been nailed to his head, to his forehead.

13 Q. Witness N, the truth is that once Mr. Gotovac was taken

14 out of the hangar by Mr. Landzo, you did not personally

15 witness what happened to him outside, did you?

16 A. I did not see it personally, what happened outside, but

17 we heard the moans, cries for help of Scepo Gotovac and

18 then later there was somebody who had seen Esad Landzo

19 beat him. I don't want to --

20 Q. I am going to object. He is not testifying from any

21 personal knowledge. He is citing that somebody else may

22 have told him something later on. I asked him if he

23 saw it and he needs to answer that question. Could the

24 court instruct him?

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Instruct him to do what, to answer

1 your question?

2 MS. McMURREY: Yes, sir.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Answer the question.

4 MS. McMURREY: The truth is once he is outside, you do not

5 know what happened. You could not personally have seen

6 that, could you?

7 A. I said that I had seen when he was beaten inside. That

8 is what I saw with my own eyes and I saw that he took

9 him out and we heard the screams outside. That meant

10 that he was being beaten and then later the people were

11 saying --

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Are you satisfied with this?

13 MS. McMURREY: Yes.

14 JUDGE JAN: I have two questions for the witness. How wide

15 was this door out of which a prisoner was taken out?

16 How wide was it?

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I thought he had given answers to

18 that. He need not answer that. He has given answers

19 how he saw people were taken out. He has answered

20 that.

21 JUDGE JAN: How wide was the door?

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You do not have to answer that,

23 because he is not making any claims for seeing people

24 from inside. He did say that.

25 JUDGE JAN: The second question is: was the door allowed

1 to remain open after the prisoner was taken out?

2 A. It depended. Sometimes the door would remain open and

3 sometimes they would shut it.

4 MS. McMURREY: May I proceed?

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes.

6 MS. McMURREY: Thank you. The truth is, Witness N, that

7 you do not know whether Mr. Landzo was merely following

8 orders either, do you?

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: This is your third time of asking this

10 question and you do not have to continue with it that

11 way. This is your third question on that.

12 MS. McMURREY: I am asking specifically about Scepo Gotovac.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He had always told you he could not

14 know. This is your third time.

15 MS. McMURREY: You testified on Monday that an SDS badge had

16 been nailed into his forehead, did you not?

17 A. No. On Monday I stated that a badge had been nailed.

18 I don't know whether it was an SDS or SDA badge, but

19 I just know that there was a badge nailed to his head

20 through his skin.

21 Q. And the truth is you don't know who placed the badge on

22 Mr. Gotovac before he was brought back into the hangar,

23 so you could not personally know who placed it there,

24 could you?

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Did you know who placed the badge in

1 his forehead?

2 A. I heard from other people that it was Esad Landzo.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: No. Did you know who did it? Did you

4 see them?

5 A. I did not see it personally. I did not see the

6 instance when the badge was nailed but some people said

7 that it was Esad Landzo, because he had beaten him.

8 MS. McMURREY: In fact, Witness N --

9 A. That's what I heard. I said that I had heard. I saw

10 the badge that was nailed there.

11 MS. McMURREY: That was not the question. This all

12 happened at night, did it not, this whole incident with

13 Scepo Gotovac?

14 A. No. It happened during the day.

15 Q. So if Mirko Babic testified that Adem Cosic and someone

16 else other than Esad Landzo took Scepo Gotovac out of

17 the hangar, then he would be lying, would he not -- I am

18 sorry -- telling an untruth? I am sorry?

19 MR. TURONE: Objection.

20 A. I know that Esad Landzo took Gotovac out of the hangar

21 and I know that it was during the day. I don't know

22 what Mirko Babic stated and that's of no interest to

23 me. I know what I know and I didn't know those

24 persons.

25 Q. It is your testimony today that this all happened during

1 broad daylight, not at night; is that correct?

2 MR. TURONE: Objection. Asked and answered.

3 A. Yes, during the day.

4 JUDGE JAN: He said broad daylight.

5 MS. McMURREY: Did you not testify last Monday that you

6 merely found Mr. Gotovac dead the next morning? Is that

7 not true?

8 A. No, I did not say about Mr. Gotovac that he was found

9 dead in the morning, that he had died there.

10 Q. You did not say that he was brought back in in the

11 middle of the night?

12 A. No. No. I did not say that he had been taken in during

13 the night. I said that he was brought back and that he

14 died there. I did not say that it was in the morning

15 or during the night, as you say.

16 Q. Okay. You testified that with Simo Jovanovic, he was

17 taken outside of the hangar too; is that not true?

18 A. Yes. He was taken out of the hangar, beaten outside --

19 he was first beaten inside and then he was --

20 Q. I am going to object. He was testifying from no

21 personal knowledge outside. If he was beaten inside,

22 yes. He is not answering the questions. This is

23 going to take all day. Could I just ask for an

24 instruction from the court to have him answer the

25 questions, please? .

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Keep asking him.

2 MS. McMURREY: Okay. Mr. Simo Jovanovic was taken outside

3 of the hangar, was he not?

4 A. Yes, he was taken out and he was brought back, and he

5 was also beaten inside, so I saw when he was beaten

6 inside and I could hear when he was being beaten

7 outside.

8 Q. So then your testimony last Monday --

9 A. I saw him dead.

10 Q. Last Monday when you testified that you did not even

11 know who took him out of the hangar, then that is not

12 true, is it?

13 MR. TURONE: Objection. This is amounting to a

14 harrassment.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What is your answer to the question?

16 Ask him the question again.

17 MS. McMURREY: So when you testified last Monday that you

18 did not even know who took him out of the hangar, Simo

19 Jovanovic, that would not be telling the truth, would

20 it?

21 A. I said that there was a group of people who were from

22 the village of Idbar and Esad Landzo was with them.

23 That is what I said. I didn't say that I didn't know

24 who took him out. Maybe the interpretation was not

25 correct.

1 Q. So your testimony today is that there was a group of

2 people that took him out; is that correct?

3 A. There was a group of people standing at the door when

4 they called him out to get out of the hangar, and Esad

5 Landzo even beat him inside in front of everybody before

6 he went out. Then later he was beaten and we saw the

7 dead body behind our backs there.

8 Q. So all this is completely different from your testimony

9 a week ago last Monday, is it not, though?

10 A. It is not different at all. Maybe just a word or two

11 that are different. What is important is that I saw

12 his dead body and I saw him being taken out, and I saw

13 when he was beaten inside.

14 Q. And all of this happened at night, did it not?

15 A. No, it didn't happen at night. It happened in the early

16 evening, but it was still daylight.

17 Q. So was it before 9 o'clock or after 9 o'clock?

18 A. I don't know the exact time. We did not have any

19 watches.

20 Q. Okay. Now whenever you testified about the beating of

21 Bosko Samoukovic, you never mentioned that there were a

22 lot of other guards present at the time, did you?

23 A. I don't know who it was. I saw personally when Bosko

24 Samoukovic was beaten and I saw Esad Landzo beat him

25 with a plank across his back and then he was taken out

1 and I said that Dr Relja told us that he had died in

2 Building Number 22 and he had been brought there.

3 Q. This was July 17th, 1992, was it not?

4 A. I don't know what date it was. I don't know the date.

5 Q. Now, you left Celebici at the end of August; is that

6 correct?

7 A. On 31st August.

8 Q. You told the Prosecutor that while you were in Musala

9 that you saw Mr. Landzo occasionally, did you not?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And he was a member of the military police then, was he

12 not?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, you never saw Mr. Landzo in Celebici before the

15 middle of June and the HOS soldiers left, did you --

16 I mean, the HVO. I am sorry. It was the HVO

17 soldiers.

18 A. This is not clear to me. I do not know when the HVO

19 members were there. I just know that at the beginning

20 they were together. While I was in Building Number 22

21 I know that there were Croats there. After that I

22 don't know. I did not notice Croatian soldiers when

23 I was in Building Number 6.

24 Q. You were aware that there was a group of prison guards

25 that came together, like six or seven of them at one

1 time to Celebici; is that not true?

2 A. I don't know. I don't know the exact dates. I don't

3 know when these groups came and when it was that

4 somebody arrived, because there were many guards.

5 Q. Now, you left at the end of August. You never saw Esad

6 Landzo in the prison camp after the end of July, did

7 you, 1st August?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. I pass the witness, your Honour.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much.

11 Mrs. Residovic, I pass the witness to you.

12 Cross-examined by MS. RESIDOVIC

13 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your

14 Honour. Good afternoon, Witness N?

15 A. Good afternoon.

16 Q. My name is Edina Residovic. I am the defence counsel

17 for Zejnil Delalic. Mr. N, I will ask a few questions

18 on his behalf. I will also ask you, just as my

19 colleagues did, to answer my questions as briefly as

20 possible, and if you cannot understand my question,

21 please tell me that immediately and I will try and

22 rephrase the question in such a way that would be the

23 easiest for you to answer; is that clear?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. Witness N, before I start asking you

1 questions about the events that you are familiar with

2 and that you testified to before this court, I would

3 like to ask you to help me identify certain persons.

4 I would like to have these photographs marked for

5 identification purposes and to be shown to Witness N for

6 identification.

7 MR. TURONE: Sorry. We are not familiar with these photos,

8 so we would like to know what the defence lawyer is

9 going to --

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: They will be passed to you. They

11 will be passed to you first. Show it to the

12 prosecution: let the prosecution see them.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honour, yes. We

14 would ask the photographs to be placed on the ELMO so

15 that everybody can see them.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let them know what actually they

17 are.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Yes. Of course, yes,

19 your Honours.

20 MR. TURONE: We are very sorry, your Honours, but this is a

21 matter of general concern. We were not absolutely

22 informed about this possibility of showing pictures to

23 the witness and these seem not to be pictures intending

24 to impeachment but seem to be part of the defence case

25 maybe. I do not know. So we object to the proper way

1 of introducing evidence this way. I am very sorry.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, I very

3 clearly stated the request of the defence. For the

4 purpose of identification of certain persons I wish that

5 the witness be shown the statements or photographs and

6 then during the cross-examinations they can also be used

7 to verify whether the witness speaks truth about certain

8 facts, and that is the reason why I want these pictures,

9 as is my right, to be shown to the witness, and whether

10 they will be used as evidence or not, the defence will

11 decide on that after the cross-examination and possible

12 identification.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually I do not really know what it

14 is all about, but you do not spring a surprise on

15 somebody by merely showing him a picture unless he has

16 denied knowing who the person is in that picture. If

17 you actually want him to identify a person, there has to

18 be a background as to his knowledge of that person.

19 There is nothing now before the Trial Chamber to show

20 that he has ever denied knowing whoever you want to show

21 to him to identify it.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): It is clear that once

23 the picture is shown to him, that I will ask him

24 questions about these persons. This is an integral

25 part of the identification process. If the witness

1 does not have a picture in front of him, I cannot ask

2 him the question.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Are you trying to remind him about the

4 persons in the photograph or are you actually leading

5 him into telling you exactly what has transpired between

6 him and someone and this picture tells you who that

7 person is? You must lay the background of how this

8 picture comes into it. It is not fair on anybody just

9 to spring a surprise on him. I am sure you know why

10 you want to show him the photographs. You know in your

11 mind why you want him to see the photographs.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Naturally, your Honour,

13 during my cross-examination my intention is, depending

14 on whether the witness will or not identify the person,

15 I intend to ask him some questions. That is the reason

16 why I offer these photographs. They have a bearing on

17 his testimony before this court. I can't tell you more

18 at this point, because I would then reveal what

19 questions I intend to ask of the witness and that

20 witness had already --

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If he says he does not know, I do not

22 know what you will do.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): I will continue with

24 other questions. I do not expect the witness -- that

25 the witness will have to answer or recognise the

1 persons, but I think that -- since the witness is under

2 oath, I think that the witness will tell us what he

3 knows.

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Okay. Show it to him.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you.

6 MR. TURONE: I would add for the record that our objection

7 is based on Rule 67(c).

8 JUDGE JAN: It is a special defence taken by the accused.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Please, I would like

10 this photograph to be placed on the ELMO.

11 Mr. N, do you know who this person is?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Thank you. You can put the next picture.

14 Witness N, can you recognise the persons in this

15 picture, any of the persons?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Thank you very much. Please show the third picture to

18 the witness.

19 This is the picture of a man with long hair and a

20 ponytail?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you recognise this man?

23 A. I saw this man when he entered Hangar Number 6. I

24 don't know his name.

25 Q. If I can help you, can you remember if this is Emir

1 Delalic?

2 A. I don't know his name. I just saw his face when he

3 entered the camp. That's the only thing I know.

4 Q. Thank you. So you saw this man enter Hangar Number 6?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you please take the picture off the ELMO and we will

7 go back to it later. Can you please now show to the

8 witness the last photograph that we would like him to

9 see?

10 Mr. N, can you recognise the person in this

11 photograph?

12 A. I saw this person but I don't know his name.

13 Q. Can you tell us where did you see this person?

14 A. I can't remember now exactly. This is not -- it seems

15 to have been retouched, this photograph.

16 Q. Mr. N, did you see this person also in the Celebici

17 barracks, in the Celebici camp?

18 A. It is possible that I saw him there, but I am not

19 sure. I did see him somewhere.

20 Q. If I may help you to remind you, because so much time

21 has passed, is it true that this is Sefik Delalic?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. I would now like to ask you, Witness N, if you can, in

24 your own hand on pictures number 3 and 4, to state

25 before this court that you recognised the person who

1 entered Hangar Number 6, that is picture number 3, and

2 on photograph 4, if --

3 A. As for picture number 4, I am not sure. That's what

4 I said. As for picture number 3, I am sure about that.

5 Q. As for picture number 4, we will not write down those

6 things. As for picture number 3, if you can write down

7 what you said before this Court. Do you have a pen?

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What is the meaning of that? What is

9 the meaning of a witness writing down the record of the

10 court? It is a record here. If there is anything he

11 admitted, it is there.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): After this, your

13 Honours, I wish photograph number 3 to be submitted as

14 evidence for the defence.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You mean through the prosecution

16 witnesses?

17 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Yes, as evidence

18 identified by the witness in this Trial Chamber, and

19 afterwards it can be used as defence evidence by the

20 court. Maybe I was not precise enough. I apologise.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It could be tendered as what he has

22 identified. That is sufficient. It is an exhibit.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Yes. Thank you, your

24 Honours.

25 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, may I object to the admission of

1 this exhibit for a matter of principle, because we

2 object under Rule 67(c), because we have never been

3 given access to these pictures and it was not for

4 impeachment reasons. So this is our objection, and

5 I emphasise we object as a matter of principle.

6 Defence know that we are entitled to see what should be

7 used as evidence under Rule 67, paragraph C. Thank

8 you.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, the

10 defence will do that. Since the witness has identified

11 only one photograph, from that moment we are obliged to

12 discover evidence, because we intend to use this exhibit

13 as evidence. According to the cited Rule, we are

14 obliged to submit any evidence which we have in our

15 possession and submit for insight to the Prosecutor and

16 that is what we shall do now.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: This is evidence which should have

18 been submitted to them before now. The only relevance

19 I see here is merely for identification purposes. It

20 is merely identifying the particular photograph. I do

21 not see the basis on which it has now been admitted into

22 evidence, because there is nothing to follow that.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, the

24 defence will tender this identified picture when

25 presenting its case as evidence. At this moment it

1 realises that it is its obligation to submit it to the

2 Prosecutor in accordance with the Rule on reciprocal

3 disclosure. I thank you now. The witness has

4 identified the photograph. I would like to ask him to

5 note this identification on the photograph so that when

6 the defence uses it as evidence, it can be used as part

7 of all the evidence before this Trial Chamber, and, of

8 course, it will immediately be submitted to the

9 prosecution in accordance with Rule 67(c).

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The Trial Chamber notes it is for

11 identification. It is only in for identification

12 purposes.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, but I would

14 like to ask the witness to note on picture 3, to put

15 down with his hand that today he recognised on this

16 picture --

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I said you cannot do that. You

18 cannot do that.

19 JUDGE JAN: Why do you insist on that? It is already on

20 the transcript that he has identified this man.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, it is there.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you. I am not

23 insisting. I know it is in the transcript, but since

24 I have already noted that I am trying to discover how

25 other people behaved before this Trial Chamber, the

1 Prosecutor did the same, so I thought that was the

2 correct procedure. For me it is sufficient that it is

3 stated in the transcript that the witness has identified

4 photograph number 3, but I think I was not acting

5 improperly if I asked him to write that down in his own

6 hand. Thank you.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Except it is not in his handwriting or

8 you fear he is not the one giving the evidence ... The

9 whole process is a very strange way, in a strange Trial

10 Chamber, I suppose, but definitely he has answered. He

11 has identified it and it has been admitted for

12 identification purposes. This is sufficient.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): I will for the sake of

14 precision regarding this identification and what is --

15 what appears in the transcript, let me repeat that the

16 witness has identified the photograph submitted to him

17 as number 3, and in answer to my question whether this

18 was a man with long hair and a ponytail, and I named him

19 as Emir Delalic. I want to be sure we do not make any

20 mistake.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The witness did not give that

22 evidence.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Yes.

24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: His evidence is very clear in the

25 transcript as to the person he saw in the Hangar 6.

1 That is all he knew about it.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your

3 Honours. Mr. N, I should now like to pass on to some

4 questions that I am interested in hearing from you.

5 You told the Prosecutor in February 1996 a lengthy

6 statement; you made a lengthy statement for the

7 Prosecution?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You made it in Temisoara?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Like my learned colleague, in view of the next three

12 questions I intend to ask the witness, I ask that the

13 sound be switched off so as not to affect the protective

14 measures against this witness?

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Kindly inform them to cut off the

16 sound so it should be in private session.

17 (In private session)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redactedû

16 (redactedû

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

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21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (In open session)

4 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Mr. N, the statement of

5 February last year, which you gave to the prosecution,

6 you gave it over two days; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, about. I was there for two days. I can't

8 remember exactly the hours.

9 Q. That statement was quite an exhaustive one and with a

10 great deal of detail and precision?

11 A. I don't know what you think about it.

12 Q. I am asking you to answer my question rather than

13 answering with your questions.

14 Will you please, your Honours, ask the witness to

15 answer my questions, but not with counter-questions.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What was your question, because there

17 has been a dialogue between the two of you?

18 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Please, can you tell me

19 whether at the time you conveyed everything you knew and

20 that you could remember?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. At the time you said and mentioned people and events

23 that were linked to your arrest and your detention in

24 Celebici and Musala; is that true?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. That was February 1996; true?

2 A. I don't know exactly the date. Yes, I know it was

3 1996.

4 Q. At that time the proceedings before this court had not

5 yet started; is that correct?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. But at the time you, Mr. N, were not aware who might be

8 indicted by this Tribunal; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You were born in Konjic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You knew many people in Konjic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you could not know which of those people would be

15 indicted by the International Tribunal?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you remember, Mr. N, that at the time you told the

18 Prosecutor that all that you said in your statement was

19 true?

20 A. Yes, it was the truth that I said.

21 Q. You were aware at the time, and you were warned of this,

22 that this statement may be used in proceedings before

23 this Tribunal; is that correct?

24 A. I don't understand. I made a statement probably for

25 this Tribunal.

1 Q. Thank you. Mr. N, I just wish to go back to some of

2 your indications in connection with our questions. On

3 several occasions you testified that you wished to

4 forget many events, that you do not like to remember

5 what is behind you, and I fully appreciate that, because

6 all of us that have experienced the war wish to suppress

7 many of those memories. However, I would, after all,

8 like to ask you to tell me or to confirm that a year ago

9 you probably remembered some events better, some events

10 and people, than you can today, or maybe you will be

11 able to in a year's time; is that true?

12 A. Well, yes, of course.

13 Q. Thank you. After that statement in February last year

14 you had no need to look for the Prosecutor or the

15 Association of Detainees in connection with that

16 statement. Did you have any such need?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did the Prosecution or the Association of Detainees look

19 for you?

20 A. After that, after Temisoara?

21 Q. Yes. You told my learned colleague, Mr. Moran, that upon

22 your arrival in The Hague you spoke to the distinguished

23 representative of the prosecution, Mr. Turone; is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes, when I came here. I thought you were asking for

1 events over there.

2 Q. Well, after that statement in Temisoara and before this

3 interview in The Hague, did you make any additional

4 statements?

5 A. What do you mean? To whom?

6 Q. To the Prosecution?

7 A. I met the Prosecution here only when I came here.

8 Q. Thank you. Will you please tell me whether anyone

9 informed you that the defence of Mr. Delalic or my

10 learned colleagues, the defence counsel of the other

11 accused, wished to talk to you so as to have the same

12 chance as the prosecution?

13 A. No, nobody told me that.

14 Q. Thank you for this answer too. So let me repeat:

15 after Temisoara you had no talks with the prosecution

16 until you came to The Hague?

17 A. No. I met the prosecutors here.

18 Q. Mr. N, were you aware of the position of the Association

19 that witnesses should beware of defence counsel and

20 should not talk to them?

21 A. I really do not know anything about that.

22 Q. Mr. N, have you ever met with the investigator who

23 questioned you in Temisoara, Mr. Sergio Saxaca?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And have you met a Mrs Sabine Manke of Germany?

1 A. Yes, but not linked to this.

2 Q. So you are confirming that with Sabine Manke, that you

3 did not make any statements?

4 A. Not here.

5 Q. What about Mrs Teresa McHenry? You did not meet her

6 either before coming to The Hague; is that true?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you did not make any statement for Mrs. McHenry

9 either?

10 A. No.

11 Q. I would now, Mr. N, like to ask you to look at the

12 statement of November 14th. No. First let me ask you:

13 you were born on 3rd December 1968, is that true, and

14 the name of your father is Risto?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I would like the witness to be supplied with a copy of

17 his statement from November 1996, in which it says that

18 the statement was made before the interviewer Sabine

19 Manke and present during the interview was Mrs. Teresa

20 McHenry.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Do you recognise that as your

22 statement?

23 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Mr. N, if it is easier

24 for you, I can give you the first statement too, which

25 is a lengthy one, and you were interviewed by Sergio

1 Oaxaca?

2 A. Listen, this is all okay, but a moment ago when you

3 asked me about Sabine, whether I had had any talks with

4 her, you were talking about Temisoara. You didn't ask

5 me about these interviews.

6 Q. Will you give me this document?

7 So in this document you recognise the statement

8 you made?

9 A. Yes, but there must be a mistake in the translation,

10 though.

11 Q. This was a statement made in Belgrade?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Before Sabine?

14 A. But I didn't know the persons. I didn't know them.

15 Teresa McHenry either, I didn't know her by name.

16 Q. So, Mr. N, a moment ago in your testimony you said that

17 between Temisoara and here in the Hague you had not

18 given any statement, so that is not true?

19 A. This was not a real statement. It was just a checking

20 of what I had said. It's not a statement.

21 Q. Therefore, in Belgrade in the Association of witnesses

22 you made a supplementary additional statement?

23 A. It is not a statement and it was not given in the

24 Association of Detainees.

25 Q. It was in Belgrade on November 14th?

1 A. Yes, in Belgrade but not in the Association of

2 Detainees.

3 Q. Thank you. Allow me now, since you have recognised

4 this statement, after it was shown to you, to ask you a

5 few questions in this connection?

6 A. It is not a statement, I must repeat. A statement is

7 one thing; this is just a few words.

8 Q. Mr. N, will you please answer my questions, and what the

9 document means is stated clearly on the document.

10 Therefore, please, Mr. N, will you please confirm whether

11 after that also, as on the first occasion, you signed

12 the testimony in English?

13 A. My statement? Yes, I signed it.

14 Q. You had an interpreter during the interview?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is it true that you signed a certificate stating that

17 this statement had been read out to you in the Serbian

18 language and it is faithful to your knowledge and

19 memory; is that true?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you, Mr. N. Allow me now to go back to your

22 previous statement. You have already said, but please

23 confirm once again, that your first statement is much

24 longer than the second one; is that true?

25 A. I said once that it was not a statement. It was just

1 confirming the first statement.

2 Q. Mr. N, will you please answer my question?

3 A. I have answered it, and I don't wish to answer any more

4 questions that are not directly linked to this.

5 Q. Will you please remind the witness that he is obliged to

6 answer the questions put to him by the defence?

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually it is if he understands them,

8 is it not? I do not think a witness should not answer a

9 question. He should answer the questions. If he has

10 not understood them, phrase them better so that he can

11 understand what you are asking, because I think the

12 whole problem arises from what you think he said here

13 and over there. They are two places.

14 He has been insisting that he did not make any

15 statements in The Hague. It is possible he has made

16 several statements outside here. So you take each of

17 the statements and put them to him. If he says they

18 are not statements, what are they then; ask him that.

19 At least he was telling the prosecution what he knew

20 about the matter.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you for your

22 advice. I have just shown the witness his statement

23 carrying his personal data, which he confirmed, and

24 which he made on November 14th before Sabine Manke,

25 interpreter, Miodrag Savic, and in the presence of Mrs

1 Teresa McHenry, and which he signed carrying the

2 certificate that the statement was read to him in the

3 Serbian language and it corresponds best to his

4 knowledge and recollection. He confirmed just now that

5 he made this statement in Belgrade. So, your Honour,

6 since we are dealing now with two statements made by the

7 witness, allow me to ask him a few questions in that

8 question.

9 Mr. N, I will ask you with regard to facts linked

10 to events you are familiar with --

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ms Residovic, I think we can now rise

12 and you can continue your cross-examination tomorrow

13 morning.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Okay, your Honours.

15 (4.00 pm)

16 (Hearing adjourned until 10.00 am tomorrow)

17 --ooOoo--

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