1 Tuesday, 6th May 1997

2 (10.00 am)

3 MR. DRAGAN KULJANIN (continued)

4 Examined by MR. OSTBERG (continued)

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

6 Will you please invite the witness?

7 (Witness enters court)

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Remind the witness he is on his oath.

9 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you that you are still under

10 oath.

11 A. (In interpretation) it is clear to me.

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Now the appearances.

13 MR. OSTBERG: Thank you, your Honour. Good morning,

14 Mr. Kuljanin.

15 A. Good morning.

16 Q. We stopped yesterday --

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let us have the appearances before we

18 continue.

19 MR. OSTBERG: Thank you. I am Eric Ostberg, appearing

20 today which Mr. Giuliano Turone and Ms. Elles van

21 Dusschoten.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): My name is Edina

23 Residovic, defence counsel of Mr. Zejnil Delalic. With

24 me is Mr. O'Sullivan, Professor of Criminal Law from

25 Canada.

1 MR. GREAVES: I am Michael Greaves. I appear on behalf of

2 the defendant Mucic and I am assisted today by Mr.s Mira

3 Tapuskovic.

4 MR. KARABDIC (in interpretation): I am Salih Karabdic,

5 defence counsel of Mr. Hazim Delic. With me in the team

6 is Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney from the United States.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: I am John Ackerman, representing Esad Landzo,

8 and in the gallery is Mustafa Brackovic, also

9 representing Esad Landzo.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr. Ostberg, you are continuing with

11 your examination-in-chief.

12 MR. OSTBERG: Thank you, your Honour.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think it is better to settle your

14 witness down.

15 Do not be too anxious. Wait and answer just the

16 questions counsel has put to you and only that. It

17 will make things easier for you and make the time

18 shorter for you, and make life less complicated, because

19 all you need do is answer what you are asked and get

20 relaxed. There is nothing more of a problem now.

21 Thank you very much.

22 MR. OSTBERG: Thank you, your Honour.

23 We stopped looking at the list you had prepared of

24 persons who you knew were killed in the Celebici camp.

25 We finished with Zjelko Klimenta.

1 Taking you to number 5 on this list, I ask you,

2 Mr. Kuljanin, what you know about the fate of Milorad

3 Kuljanin. Try to be brief when you do the account of

4 that.

5 A. Milorad is a relative of mine. He was sitting close to

6 me one morning, the day of the Bairaim holiday. He was

7 called out. I didn't see who called him out. Behind

8 the hangar, that is on the side of the entrance, a shot

9 was heard. I heard the comments made loudly. They

10 said: "Today is Bairaim. We have another two days of

11 Bairaim. We have to kill two more men." I didn't see

12 who killed him or who called him out. That is what

13 I heard and he didn't come back.

14 Q. Thank you. Can you name the person you heard saying

15 that they were going to kill two others?

16 A. I cannot name that person, because I didn't recognise

17 the voice, and I didn't see him. He was behind the

18 wall; that person was the behind the wall.

19 Q. Thank you very much. We go on to Number 6 by the name

20 of Bosko Samoukovic. Can you tell us about him?

21 A. Bosko Samoukovic was a neighbour of mine. He was an

22 older man of about 60. Zenga came in, Zenga Landzo,

23 and he forced him to state his name out loud. As the

24 man didn't have any teeth and he always spoke very

25 quietly, so he was ordered to speak up. He tried

1 several times. Then Zenga said: "Shout as if you were

2 leading the Cetniks in the woods." The man tried to

3 speak up loudly, but his voice was not strong enough.

4 Zenga took a plank of about 1 metre, 1.20 metres, and he

5 started beating him with it behind the neck. The man

6 fell. Zenga ordered some other people who were nearby

7 to carry him out. They carried him out. I didn't see

8 where they took him, but the man never returned.

9 Q. Thank you. We go now to Number 7 on the list, Scepo

10 Gotovac. Could you please tell us about him?

11 A. I do not know who but it was the guards who called him

12 out several times. I don't know the name of the guard,

13 but one day towards nightfall he was brought in with a

14 badge on his forehead. As I was sitting quite far from

15 him, I couldn't see what the badge was. Zenga said:

16 "Who takes this off I will kill him", and he swore at

17 all of us. He cursed our mothers. The man was lying

18 down and he died afterwards. I heard him being

19 beaten. The man was crying and moaning and begging for

20 mercy: "Brothers, don't do this to me."

21 Q. How long after he was brought back did he die?

22 A. I can't remember exactly, but I think you could hear a

23 moan now and then throughout the night, and then he fell

24 silent, so I don't know exactly when he passed away.

25 Q. Thank you. Number 8 on the list is Zjelko Cecez.

1 Could you tell us about him?

2 A. Zjelko Cecez was called out frequently by a group of

3 guards also. He was taken out often. One night he

4 was taken out and he was beaten virtually in the same

5 place. I heard them saying to him: "How come you have

6 an apartment when you are so young?" It was night-time,

7 so I didn't see who brought him back and threw him in.

8 About ten minutes later the man begged for help and he

9 said: "Men, I am going stiff. I am dying", but no one

10 could help him. We had no water, no food, no

11 medicines, nothing to give him as first aid. I think

12 he didn't live more than for half an hour, and then he

13 died.

14 Q. Also in the hangar; he died in the hangar?

15 A. Yes, also in the hangar.

16 Q. Right. Thank you very much.

17 A. You are welcome.

18 Q. This takes us to Number 9 on the list, Cedo Avramovic?

19 A. Cedo Avramovic was brought --

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me, your Honour. I am hampered by

21 not having been here earlier, but it is my understanding

22 that the court has already ruled that since this

23 particular individual is not any part of the indictment

24 that any evidence regarding him is not admissible. I

25 don't know if that is the prior ruling of the court.

1 If it is not, I would make the objection that this

2 particular individual is not involved in any way in the

3 indictment and therefore any evidence regarding this

4 particular individual is not admissible.

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. I do not think

6 it is relevant making the objection at all, because it

7 is part of things which happened while the witness was

8 there and he should be able to give it in evidence. It

9 does not necessarily matter whether it is there or

10 not.

11 MR. OSTBERG: Thank you, your Honour.

12 Will you please go on to tell us about him, Cedo

13 Avramovic?

14 A. Cedo Avramovic was brought one day. I didn't see

15 anyone beating him. At night one could hear him trying

16 to climb up the wall, up a cable. He was trying to

17 climb up. He fell and in the morning he was found

18 dead. They said that it was probably a heart attack.

19 That's what people said.

20 Q. Thank you. Number 10 is not properly identified so

21 I have no question to put to you concerning him, which

22 brings us to number 11, Pero Mrkajic?

23 A. Pero Mrkajic is also a neighbour of mine. He was in

24 the group with me when we set off across

25 Mt Bjelasnica. He was, I think, over 60; 62, 63. I

1 don't know exactly. He only had one eye. He was a

2 very sickly man. After all the troubles, the torture,

3 Bjelasnica, the silo and Igman, he came to Celebici with

4 me. They beat him like they beat me. They questioned

5 him about his sons, where they were, what they were

6 doing. I think the man was half alive. He didn't

7 really know what he was doing or what he was saying any

8 more. He was held there. Nobody gave him any

9 treatment. He begged, but to no avail. I don't know

10 exactly for how long he was there. Then one day they

11 took him away and he never returned.

12 Q. Thank you very much. Now to the last name on the list,

13 number 12, Simo Jovanovic?

14 A. Simo Jovanovic was also captured some time after us,

15 much later actually. He was sitting quite a distance

16 from me. He was called out often. I really don't

17 know exactly what happened with him, but the man simply

18 disappeared one day. I can't say anything more

19 specific about him.

20 Q. Thank you very much? I have been using it as an

21 aide-memoire for this questioning and I will not ask

22 your permission to enter it into evidence. So I will

23 proceed now with other questions.

24 Did you ever see in Celebici detention centre any

25 women being detained?

1 A. In the Celebici camp I saw Kuljanin Darinka the day

2 I was taken in for interrogation to the command

3 building, because I was given a broom to clean around

4 the gate in the direction of Number 9 and even outside

5 the entrance gate for about 10 metres. She was at the

6 window. That's what I saw. What I heard, Mr. Delic

7 would come often. That is how we had to call him.

8 MR. MORAN: Objection, your Honour. He said he heard.

9 This is lack of personal knowledge. It is not

10 reliable.

11 JUDGE JAN: In any case he is anticipating you. It is not

12 part of your question.

13 MR. OSTBERG: No, it is not part of my question. My

14 question was if you saw any women. Did you see just

15 this woman that you talked about?

16 A. I saw Darinka Kuljanin at the window at the command

17 building.

18 Q. Thank you very much. That was the only one?

19 A. The only one I saw.

20 Q. Now over to something else. Do you know who was in

21 command of the Celebici camp?

22 A. The Commander of the Celebici camp was Pavo Mucic or

23 Zdravko Mucic.

24 Q. How did you get this information?

25 A. I obtained this information by observing the behaviour

1 of guards and his deputy Delic when they were

2 together. I also was able to gather this from many men

3 and women who went to Pavo and to Delic.

4 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, this is not his personal

5 knowledge and I object to him giving evidence of what he

6 heard from others, if it is not within his own personal

7 knowledge.

8 MR. OSTBERG: Could you tell us about what you saw yourself

9 of Mr. Mucic's way of -- his demeanour in the camp?

10 A. Pavo Mucic would come to the camp three or four times.

11 On one occasion he was going from one man to the other

12 asking for names and what weapons the people had. A

13 second time he would call out some names and he drove

14 them away somewhere. I don't know where. A third

15 time I saw him when I was going to the toilet. He was

16 with Delic, walking along (pointing) this path, and

17 I was here in the toilet.

18 Q. The witness is now pointing in the middle of the model,

19 the road going through the camp?

20 A. Our toilet was here (pointing) and they were walking

21 along this path. I also noticed -- that is what

22 I noticed and it is my conviction -- that this was how

23 it had to be.

24 Q. I did not quite understand your answer. "What it had

25 to be", what do you mean by that?

1 A. What I meant was that when he came and he called

2 somebody by name to take him somewhere, there was no way

3 anyone could react. There was no one was allowed to

4 make any objections to what he said.

5 Q. Thank you. Now I understand what you meant. How many

6 times did Mr. Mucic come to Hangar Number 6? Can you

7 summarise that during your detention?

8 MR. GREAVES: He has already answered the question in the

9 following way: "He came to the camp three or four

10 times".

11 MR. OSTBERG: I don't think so.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. Did you ever talk to him, speak with him

14 personally?

15 A. I did not.

16 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us something about Delic's

17 position in the camp more than you have already said?

18 A. Delic could be seen almost daily in the camp and in

19 Hangar Number 6, almost every day. Maybe there were

20 four or five days that he didn't come, and we rejoiced

21 on the days that he wasn't there. He would come by

22 car. He had a small Fiat. He would make circles with

23 the car between the rows. We were not allowed to budge

24 from our seats. He would enter often. He would beat

25 people with a big baseball bat. He had boots on his

1 feet. He would kick people.

2 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, objection.

3 Could you excuse me, please, sir?

4 Your Honour, this is not responsive to the

5 question that was asked. I object.

6 MR. OSTBERG: The question was his demeanour in the camp.

7 MR. MORAN: No, your Honour. The question was:

8 "Can you tell us something about Mr. Delic's

9 position in the camp more than you already said?"

10 That was the question, your Honour.

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Do you remember your question?

12 MR. OSTBERG: Yes, your Honour.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You did not follow up the question

14 about his not knowing his position in the camp.

15 MR. OSTBERG: I am quite content for that. Do you know,

16 Mr. Kuljanin, of others who had authority over the camp?

17 A. Are you thinking in addition to Pavo and Delic?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. To be quite frank, I thought and believed that Pavo

20 Mucic was in charge, and I know nothing more than that.

21 Q. Thank you very much. When initially you demonstrated

22 your knowledge of the camp, when you went around the

23 model, I remember that you said that you were questioned

24 at some opportunity. Will you tell us about how you

25 were questioned or if you were accused of anything

1 during your stay in Celebici?

2 A. During my stay in Celebici I was not accused in concrete

3 terms of anything. They took me in for interrogation

4 and they said to me that I had a rifle. That's all.

5 They accused me -- charged me with having a rifle.

6 That's all. They took me to the command building for

7 interrogation. I was interrogated --

8 MR. MORAN: Objection, your Honour. Non-responsive. The

9 question was:

10 "Were you accused of anything?"

11 It was not: "Where were you taken?"

12 MR. OSTBERG: The question was also about the questioning he

13 was submitted to. Go on and tell us about this

14 questioning. Did you tell us who interrogated you?

15 A. I don't know the man's name. They brought me -- us

16 from Number 6 to the command building with our hands

17 up. Before that, while we were waiting, I was told to

18 clean with a broom with my head down. I entered.

19 I sat down. I had to bow my head.

20 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, same objection, your Honour. The

21 question was:

22 "Who interrogated you?"

23 MR. OSTBERG: Yes, and how the interrogation went on.

24 There are follow-up questions.

25 MR. MORAN: The question was:

1 "Did you tell us who interrogated you?"

2 MR. OSTBERG: Will you then tell us what happened during

3 this interrogation?

4 A. I don't know the name or the surname of the man who

5 interrogated me.

6 Q. Will you tell us how long this interrogation went on?

7 A. It lasted about twenty minutes.

8 Q. Did you have to sign any statement taken from you during

9 this interrogation?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you recall what there was in this statement that you

12 signed?

13 A. Nobody read the statement to me. I was just told to

14 sign and then -- I apologise; this is how he spoke to me

15 -- and then he said: "Get lost!" I just had to sign

16 what they gave me.

17 Q. Did you have a chance to read what you signed?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Thank you. Were you ever examined by any doctor, get

20 any medical treatment in the camp?

21 A. I was not, although I asked for it.

22 Q. Thank you. Were you ever examined by any doctor after

23 your release from the camp?

24 A. Yes. Those were detailed examinations.

25 Q. When did that happen?

1 A. I cannot recall the exact date.

2 Q. Can you tell us where it happened?

3 A. This was in Belgrade in Bezanijska Kosa and I think that

4 -- I know that the doctor's name was Bjelica.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 A. You are welcome.

7 Q. I now want to ask you: do you still suffer physically

8 from the way you were treated in the camp?

9 A. Sometimes I urinate blood. I don't hear well on my

10 left ear. As you can see, my nose is like this.

11 I have pains and it impedes my speech. Sometimes

12 I have kidney pains. More recently it is less

13 frequently, because I went to spas and so on. Then

14 also you can see my teeth. It was a difficult surgery

15 but I fixed that.

16 Q. What you now told us, is that the result of what

17 happened to you in Celebici?

18 A. These are the consequences of everything that happened

19 to me between the day that I was arrested and the day

20 I was released from the camp.

21 Q. Will you go back to this day? When were you released

22 from the camp? What date was that?

23 A. I was released on 24th September 1992.

24 Q. You summarised this yesterday, saying you were detained

25 for 96 days; is that correct?

1 A. I need to make a correction there. That is from the

2 day of my arrest to my release from Celebici. That is

3 altogether 96 days, but when I was first detained until

4 I was brought to Celebici, that took about three or four

5 days, so altogether in Celebici I was 92 or 93 days.

6 After that I was moved to the sports hall in Konjic and

7 I stayed there for 24 days, and on 24th September I was

8 exchanged in Trnovo.

9 Q. Thank you very much.

10 A. You are welcome.

11 Q. I have one more question concerning what you said

12 yesterday. You mentioned at one point that you saw

13 trucks through the windows of the Hangar Number 6.

14 Could you explain for the court how you could see

15 anything through the window in Hangar Number 6? Were

16 there any windows?

17 A. They were not classical type of windows. Those were

18 openings that were open like this and I could see under

19 an angle (indicating) and I could even count them.

20 Q. So you saw through an angle trucks passing the hangar --

21 passing through the camp?

22 A. Yes, I could even count them.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 A. You are welcome.

25 Q. Just a second, your Honours. I will just check with my

1 colleagues. Can you tell us on what road and in what

2 direction these trucks went?

3 A. Yes. The trucks moved this way and I saw them going

4 this way. That means through this window here, because

5 I was sitting on the far side, under an angle. I could

6 even count them, how many trucks there were. They were

7 passing from this direction in that direction

8 (indicating).

9 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Kuljanin.

10 A. You are welcome.

11 Q. That concludes my questioning in examination-in-chief.

12 Thank you, your Honours.

13 JUDGE JAN: Are you supplying his medical record of the

14 examination in Belgrade?

15 MR. OSTBERG: Your Honour, it is like this. We are going

16 to call as a witness Dr Bjelica. Through his

17 examination we will enter the statement made about

18 Mr. Kuljanin.

19 JUDGE JAN: I have not been followed how at an angle,

20 because we have been told the windows were three metres

21 high. How could he see, sitting in one of the back

22 rows?

23 MR. OSTBERG: Tell us about this: was there any difference

24 in the elevation between the floor of the hangar and the

25 road or how was it possible? We are curious. We know

1 that these windows were sitting very high and that's why

2 we are curious about your account.

3 A. I was sitting on that side there (indicating) and

4 through the window under an angle there was a

5 difference, and you couldn't see all the truck. You

6 couldn't see the wheels, but you could see at least half

7 of the truck. So from here through that window under

8 an angle I could see it. I don't know what this is.

9 I think it is a fence or something, a fence that was --

10 that was about this colour here.

11 Q. Thank you very much.

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You say that is the end of your

13 examination-in-chief?

14 MR. OSTBERG: Yes, your Honour, it is.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The witness is open for

16 cross-examination. Have you agreed the defence on the

17 manner in which you are talking the cross-examination?

18 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, your Honours. We will proceed in the

19 following way: first counsel for Mr. Delalic; second,

20 counsel for Mr. Mucic; third, counsel for Mr. Delic; and,

21 fourth, counsel for Mr. Landzo.

22 Cross-examination by MS. RESIDOVIC

23 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your

24 Honours. Good morning, Mr. Kuljanin.

25 A. Good morning, ma'am.

1 Q. I am Edina Residovic. I am the defence counsel for

2 Mr. Zejnil Delalic. Mr. Kuljanin, I hope that you will

3 be able to answer the questions that I will pose and

4 that are of interest in determining the truth in this

5 case. Will you do that?

6 A. I hope I will, if I know these things.

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kuljanin. I have a habit to point to the

8 fact that we both speak the same language, and we can

9 get carried away and go very speedily. So in order to

10 help the interpreters and to help the judges I would

11 like to request of you that you pause before you answer,

12 and I will also pause before I ask the question, so that

13 everybody understands us well. Is that an agreement?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you very much. Mr. Kuljanin, before this Trial

16 Chamber you asserted that you lived in Konjic, Sarajevo,

17 Belgrade; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, and in Kula and Tuzla.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 A. You are welcome.

21 Q. You left Konjic -- you withdrew your residence in Konjic

22 in 1988?

23 A. That is correct but I never became resident anywhere

24 else.

25 Q. Following that you lived in Belgrade?

1 A. I did live in Belgrade and I was -- as full-time I took

2 residence there in 1990.

3 Q. Thank you, and, as you said, you were a field -- you

4 were a field commercial representative in Ruski Krstur

5 near Kula. You were coming to Bradina and Konjic

6 during the holidays and vacations; is that correct?

7 A. Correct. Sometimes more frequently; sometimes less

8 frequently. In fact, whenever it was on my way,

9 I would pass by, so there was no rule when I would come.

10 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you said, in fact, that in early

11 April 1992 you came to Bradina; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, on April 3rd. It was a Friday.

13 Q. And, as you just said now, since 1990 you had taken the

14 residence in Belgrade?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So in that time you were -- in March and April there was

17 no state of immediate war danger; is that correct?

18 A. I think in Bosnia-Herzegovina it was not the case.

19 Q. Will you just respond to my question? There was no war

20 threat, immediate war threat, in Belgrade and in Serbia?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You came to Bradina?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. At that time you did not have permanent residence in

25 Bradina, nor did you work there; is that correct?

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. In Serbia -- it was more safe in Serbia than in Bosnia?

3 A. It turned out that way.

4 Q. You spoke to it yesterday, but I would like to confirm

5 some details, if that's all right. When you came to

6 Bradina, you saw that people were preparing for

7 something; is that correct, for defence?

8 A. Let me tell you: I saw that things were not as usual,

9 not as they were before, but in terms of preparations, I

10 don't know that there were any preparations. It was

11 unusual.

12 Q. Yes, but you said that people did not go to work; is

13 that correct?

14 A. A lot of people did not go, because there was no traffic

15 and other people did go, mostly women, because women who

16 worked in Sarajevo were let through at the checkpoint,

17 whereas I was -- this was near Gradac in Zovik. I was

18 sent back three times there.

19 Q. My question was: people were not going to work.

20 Yesterday you said you mostly sat in the centre of

21 Bradina with other people, with other men.

22 A. Yes, in the centre. There were two cafes there and

23 that's where we sat.

24 Q. Yes, thank you. So since you were sitting there, you

25 could see that at the main highway there was a ramp?

1 A. No, I did not see a ramp and I don't think there was a

2 ramp.

3 Q. Did you see any barricades that people saw?

4 A. No, I did not see that.

5 Q. You would only see women coming back with cigarettes; is

6 that true?

7 A. Women and a few men.

8 Q. You were not asked to patrol and to keep watch; is that

9 correct?

10 A. That is correct.

11 Q. However, you did say that there were some negotiations

12 with the Konjic authorities?

13 A. That's not what I said.

14 Q. Do you know that there were such conversations?

15 A. No. With the Konjic authorities? I saw a

16 videocassette, which was taped before, but that was --

17 I was not in Bradina at that time. In fact, I saw a

18 tape that was in the hall in Bradina. They were

19 showing there.

20 Q. As an educated man, you must have followed media, news?

21 A. Yes, as much as I could.

22 Q. And you learned that on April 6th Bosnia-Herzegovina was

23 proclaimed as an independent state?

24 A. To be honest, I did not learn that at that time, and, to

25 be honest, I had not heard of that. I did not know

1 that it was 6th April. You just told it to me today.

2 Q. Yes, but when you were in Bradina you knew that it was

3 proclaimed as an independent state?

4 A. No. Thank you for this information. I really did not

5 know that.

6 Q. You know that at that time there was no railroad traffic

7 either?

8 A. I think it did run until mid-April. I am not sure, but

9 I think until mid-April trains went -- ran to Sarajevo

10 and to Konjic but I am not sure.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 A. You are welcome.

13 Q. You know Rajko Dordic, do you not?

14 A. I know Rajko Dordic.

15 Q. At that time you saw him in Bradina; is that correct?

16 A. Well, I saw him in passing in that last period of time,

17 but not after.

18 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, you know that Rajko Dordic -- before these

19 events, before the war, Rajko Dordic was a member of the

20 Territorial Defence of Konjic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you know that Rajko Dordic came to Bradina to

23 organise the defence of Bradina?

24 A. I don't know that and I don't even know when he came

25 there.

1 Q. In any event, he came during the period of time when you

2 were there, which was April and May?

3 A. Yes. I did see him two or three times in May perhaps,

4 because we don't live close by to one another. Maybe

5 I saw him two or three times in passing. Other than

6 that .. we would just exchange greetings.

7 Q. Do you know that Rajko Dordic led the digging of

8 trenches?

9 A. I don't know that. I don't know that there were any

10 trenches there.

11 Q. You said yesterday that when you were leaving Bradina

12 with some people that you passed some trenches?

13 A. Those were dug-outs of soldiers who were firing at

14 Bradina.

15 Q. Even though these were the dug-outs of these soldiers

16 who were shooting at Bradina, you were able to pass

17 through?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, you said that you tried to go towards the

20 Serbian territory?

21 A. Not towards the Serb territory. We went to Trnovo,

22 because while I was listening to the information, while

23 there was still electricity, they said that Trnovo was

24 quiet and the Serbs and Muslims were having joint

25 patrols there, and this would be the example of how it

1 would be together, and so that's where we went.

2 Q. Very well, Mr. Kuljanin. You were going through the

3 forest in Bjelasnica for about two days?

4 A. Yes, two days.

5 Q. As you described it, you were found by some soldiers

6 with green bandanas?

7 A. Yes, that is correct. They had green bandanas. Some

8 were in dress; some were not.

9 Q. They took you to Mount Igman; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You spent the night at Mount Igman; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. The next day you were taken to Tarcin?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. After one or two days in Tarcin you were taken to

16 Celebici. Did I describe this correctly?

17 A. Yes, yes, then we were taken to Celebici after 24 hours.

18 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, I would like to show you a map now, and

19 please, if you could put it on the ELMO and if you could

20 point the way you went to Celebici?

21 A. I could show that up to a point.

22 Q. Very well. I would like to ask you to point the part

23 that you can and for -- the defence would like to use it

24 as its evidence what the witness is able to show.

25 Would you please put it on the ELMO, and I would like

1 you to point what I am about to ask. Mr. Kuljanin, could

2 you point with your pencil where Sarajevo is? Will you

3 please circle that? Thank you.

4 A. (circling) You are welcome.

5 Q. Can you now know where Konjic is?

6 A. Here. It's right here (pointing).

7 Q. Since you -- as a commercial man, can you point us the

8 highway between Konjic and Sarajevo, since you covered

9 it in your car, the part that you covered?

10 A. (Pointing).

11 Q. Will you please circle Ivan Sedlo and Bradina? Maybe it

12 is not perfectly clear.

13 A. Here there is a tunnel here and then it is right there

14 (circling).

15 Q. Will you please indicate Tarcin on this map?

16 A. Here, here. Tarcin is here (pointing). I did

17 indicate it.

18 Q. Please, Mount Igman?

19 A. It's over on that side. It's here (circling).

20 Q. Please indicate that as well for me, Bjelasnica where

21 you passed through?

22 A. Here. Here it is (indicating).

23 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, could you confirm before this Trial Chamber

24 that the area that you went through is a mountainous

25 area?

1 A. There was the forest. There were ravines. We didn't

2 know the way very well.

3 Q. Bjelnasnica and Igman are very high mountains, about

4 2000 metres high; correct?

5 A. Yes. There was even some snow.

6 Q. Could you also confirm that if you come over these

7 mountains, you could come to Trnovo, where you were

8 headed?

9 A. I know that we could pass until the point where we were

10 stopped. After that none.

11 Q. Yes, but I am telling you about this time. You could

12 go to Kalinovik; correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you confirm that Kalinovik was a significant site

15 of the JNA compounds and its manoeuvering polygon?

16 A. I am not an expert.

17 Q. Do you know that this is the birthplace of General

18 Mladic?

19 A. I heard that later from the news media.

20 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, is it not a bit strange that you, as an

21 educated man, know what the situation is like in Trnovo

22 and you don't see a ramp in Bradina?

23 A. I did not see it. I really did not see it. I did not

24 see any ramp, and there was no ramp that I know of.

25 Q. And you don't know anything about the digging of

1 trenches and the arming of your fellow villagers?

2 A. I did not see any digging of any trenches and I did not

3 see any weapons.

4 Q. All right, Mr. Kuljanin. The road that you covered was

5 a difficult one. This morning, answering to our learned

6 colleague Ostberg, you said that there was Pero Mr.kajic?

7 A. That there was Dordic as well.

8 Q. Of the elderly people. Pero Mrkajic is the father of

9 Zare Mrkajic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And of Desimir Mrkajic? I am just confirming this is an

12 elderly man who is a bit weak.

13 A. That is correct.

14 Q. He was also a diabetic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And he went all that road?

17 A. Yes. He wanted to give up halfway through. He said:

18 "Just keep going and I will go back because I am too

19 old." However, he kept going.

20 Q. And Pero Mrkajic was in Tarcin and was subjected to

21 heavy abuse both in Tarcin and in Igman?

22 A. No. In Tarcin nobody touched us and only in Igman.

23 Q. And he came to Celebici in bad condition?

24 A. Yes. He was asking for help, for medicine. He was in

25 a pretty bad condition, yes.

1 Q. Very well, Mr. Kuljanin. Let us go back to the map and

2 then we can finish with that. You located Sarajevo,

3 Konjic, the highway of Sarajevo-Konjic, and the road

4 that you took through the mountains for those two or

5 three days; that is where you were taken prisoner and

6 abused?

7 A. Yes, that is in Igman.

8 Q. And where you were interrogated and detained, Tarcin?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. Since the witness has identified this map that I showed

11 to him, I would like it entered into evidence as a

12 defence -- I don't know what the Exhibit Number is.

13 Please, if you can help me there?

14 THE REGISTRAR: It is number D/16.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Is the map not already an exhibit? It

16 is not already tendered?

17 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Sorry. I did not

18 understand.

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The map is not already exhibited, is

20 it? I thought it was.

21 MR. OSTBERG: It is not tendered from our side, not this

22 one.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Not this one. How do you describe

24 this one?

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: I am sorry. I have trouble hearing.

1 MR. OSTBERG: It is up to Mme Residovic to describe this map

2 and tell us the relevance of this, why it has to be

3 introduced in evidence.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, I wasn't

5 able to follow the interpretation for a moment, so I

6 didn't understand you quite well. Now I understand.

7 The witness has indicated on this map the path they

8 covered and the region of which the prosecution alleges

9 that my defence client was responsible for this area,

10 according to the prosecution. May I continue with my

11 cross-examination?

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can. I still have not

13 understood what the significance of this map is.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, I said

15 that is one of the reasons. The other reason would be

16 shown when it presents -- the defence presents its own

17 evidence. This is the path covered by one of the

18 victims from the indictment, so it will be important in

19 establishing this count of the indictment. So there

20 are several reasons, since the witness has described and

21 marked the map on the basis of his own personal

22 experience, that it be tendered as evidence for the

23 defence.

24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I suppose for all that it is worth,

25 you might tender it, because I am sure all that the

1 witnesses are talking about is a camp, not journeys to

2 the camp. Let us tender it. What is the name of the

3 exhibit? What do you call it? Give it a number and at

4 least you can identify it by this number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: The number is D/16-1.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Mr. Kuljanin, in answer

7 to a question by my learned colleague, Mr. Ostberg, you

8 said that you were interrogated in Celebici?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You also said that you had to sign that statement?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you tell us, Mr. Kuljanin, what was your answer when

13 you were asked whether you had a rifle?

14 A. I didn't say much, nor did I dare to say anything.

15 I was asked about a friend of mine, Vaso Vujicic. He

16 was the same age as me: "What were you doing? Did Vaso

17 distribute weapons?"; and so on.

18 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, please answer my question. When you were

19 asked whether you were armed, what was your answer?

20 A. My answer was: "No".

21 Q. Thank you. You were also interrogated in Tarcin. You

22 said that you were interrogated there by a schoolfriend

23 of yours. He did not mistreat you?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And you answered the questions he put to you?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You signed that statement too?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kuljanin, speaking about the conditions

5 in Celebici, you said that one night some people came

6 from Sandzak?

7 A. Not night but during the day-time.

8 Q. One day then. I apologise, yes. Some people from

9 Sandzak came and mistreated some of the prisoners; is

10 that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You also explained to the court that they were Muslims

13 originating from a part of Serbia whom you recognised by

14 their dialect?

15 A. And also we were told by the guards that they were

16 people from Sandzak. I was convinced of that when

17 I heard them speak, because I am familiar with the

18 dialect.

19 Q. You also said, Mr. Kuljanin, that those -- they were

20 among those who came to "visit us"; is that correct?

21 A. Yes, but I said it ironically. They came to visit us

22 and beat us.

23 Q. So those people were not guards in Celebici, nor were

24 they people from Konjic, whom you knew; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, you also said that somebody called Salko

2 beat somebody, giving the following reason: "One of ours

3 was killed and I am taking my revenge"?

4 A. Yes. He beat me, and the man was Salko.

5 Q. You also said that some persons, ironically speaking

6 visitors, would come to settle certain private accounts;

7 is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Therefore during your stay you were a witness who saw

10 persons coming to the camp, who had nothing to do with

11 the prison and who mistreated the prisoners; is that

12 correct?

13 A. But they didn't come alone. They were always

14 accompanied by one of the guards or --

15 Q. My question was: did such people come?

16 A. Yes, they did.

17 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kuljanin, can you confirm that Pero

18 Mrkajic was brought to Hangar Number 6 in a condition

19 which later resulted in his death?

20 A. He was beaten up in front of the hangar like myself, and

21 he was brought in in a serious condition, and the

22 consequences of his illness, but mostly of the beatings,

23 resulted in that, when you take it all together.

24 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kuljanin, I shall now pass on to another

25 set of questions. In answer to questions put to you by

1 the prosecution you said that you started out with some

2 women and children?

3 A. Yes. I headed for the hamlet of Jasika with women and

4 children, who were -- a mass of people were gathering on

5 the road. I saw them from my basement window and

6 I joined the group and headed for this hamlet.

7 Q. But you know that many women and children stayed behind

8 in Bradina?

9 A. No, I was not aware of that at that moment. How could

10 I know, when I didn't dare go there?

11 Q. But, Mr. Kuljanin, you know that when you were arrested

12 and brought to Hangar Number 6, women and children from

13 Bradina were not brought to the camp?

14 A. I didn't know. I didn't see it. How can I say when I

15 didn't know? There were no women or children in Hangar

16 Number 6.

17 Q. Thank you. Your sister's name is Zeljka?

18 A. Yes, and I have another sister.

19 Q. This sister, Zeljka, is married to a Kuljanin; is that

20 correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So both her maiden and her married name is Kuljanin?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you confirm that in this part of Konjic there are a

25 number of families with the same family name, quite

1 widely spread out, who are not even inter-related? For

2 instance, Kuljanin, Mrkajic, Trnka, Delalic, and so on,

3 and among all the ethnic groups?

4 A. That is correct.

5 Q. In 1992 your sister, Zeljka Kuljanin, was living in

6 Bradina?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. After leaving the prison you met her and spoke to her;

9 is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. She told you then that she stayed behind in Bradina; is

12 that correct?

13 A. She was driven to Ostrozac in a truck together with

14 three children and she was also pregnant. She was

15 mistreated. She was taken by truck. Then she was

16 returned to Konjic with these small children, plus she

17 was about to give birth. Both she and her

18 sister-in-law were in this truck, that sister-in-law's

19 two children, and they drove them off to Ostrozac. Why

20 and how she doesn't know herself. Then she was

21 returned back to Bradina, to her own apartment.

22 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, you know that your sister spent a night

23 during the military operations in the school in Bradina;

24 is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. So it is not correct that she returned the next day?

2 A. I don't know when she returned. I just know that she

3 was taken there, and I don't know how much time she

4 spent at the school. I don't know exactly.

5 Q. Did your sister tell you that the next day she went back

6 to her apartment and lived there peacefully?

7 A. It is very difficult to say that she lived peacefully,

8 because she had various visitors. There were about 30

9 women there. Armed and unknown people would come to

10 frighten them, and the children -- the women and

11 children would scream and cry. There was firing

12 around. They were afraid. Then at one point they set

13 fire to the school, etc, etc. That's what she told me.

14 Q. Having told us this, would you say that the TO did not

15 treat your sister correctly?

16 A. I don't know who it was. I can't say that it was the

17 TO or somebody else. I really can't say. I didn't

18 ask her. I don't know who those people were.

19 Q. If your sister were to come to testify here, would she

20 confirm what you have just said?

21 A. I don't know.

22 MR. OSTBERG: I object to any suggestion what another

23 person, if she comes, would say in this court, your

24 Honour.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): I will change my

1 question. You heard what you just said from your

2 sister?

3 A. I didn't give you the whole story, of course. You

4 interrupted me when I was going to say something else of

5 importance and then you cut me short, because probably

6 you expect me to say something more important. If you

7 want to us to talk, I will listen to your question;

8 please listen to my answers.

9 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, we have been admonished by the court.

10 This is a court of law. It is our duty to put specific

11 questions to you and yours to give specific answers.

12 A. But in some cases it is not possible to answer questions

13 with "yes" and "no". Maybe that is your purpose, all

14 right, but then the Trial Chamber will not learn the

15 full story.

16 Q. So according to what your sister told you, your sister

17 did have problems after your arrest or rather after the

18 ending of combat operations?

19 A. Yes, she did have a lot of problems being with small

20 children and pregnant at the same time.

21 MR. OSTBERG: Your Honour, I object to this line of

22 questioning. I cannot see the relevance of the fate of

23 the witness's sister, that that is relevant to what the

24 court has to listen to. I cannot follow the logic in

25 it.

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You might not follow. Let us see

2 where it ends. You might not follow. The

3 cross-examiner has a strategy.

4 MR. OSTBERG: Hopefully.

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let us hear you. Go on.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your

7 Honours. Can we show the witness the film for the

8 purposes of cross-examination? It is evidence which is

9 important to establish the credibility of this witness,

10 the authenticity of his statements, and for these

11 reasons I would beg permission to show this film. It

12 is a videotape MA/1 which the prosecution has in its

13 possession since March 1996, and which it submitted to

14 the defence in the process of disclosure of evidence.

15 Is the tape ready, please? Insert number 5,

16 please.

17 (Videotape played)

18 Q. Thank you. I apologise, since this tape has been used

19 for the purposes of cross-examination, that the Trial

20 Chamber heard the words uttered by this person on the

21 tape. Will you please identify this person?

22 A. She looks like my sister, but did she have to make such

23 a statement? That is the question. Was she forced to,

24 and was I forced to say many things?

25 MR. OSTBERG: I know nothing about any statement. I have

1 not heard any statement made by this person. Is this

2 just for identification of the lady in question or is

3 what is said in question? This is another thing.

4 I never heard any statement. Did the court hear any

5 statement?

6 MR. ACKERMAN: No, it was not translated.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: There was no translation.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): I stated clearly that

9 the film was being used for the purposes of

10 cross-examination, of contradicting the impeachment of

11 this witness.

12 A. What I said was true.

13 Q. I also asked for the translation. This translation has

14 been given.

15 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry. The interpreters have not

16 received a translation.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is very difficult for you to

18 introduce evidence of someone else in that manner even

19 if you are contradictory, because it was not any part of

20 what he said he knew about before he started giving

21 evidence. I do not see how that would have come in.

22 If he was to recognise his sister as being in that video

23 film, one can understand, but to contradict what he said

24 with what she is now saying is a very difficult thing to

25 accept in such proceedings.

1 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, I have the

2 right to question the witness for the purposes of

3 impeachment. In answer to my questions the witness

4 said what his sister had told her (sic). At this

5 point, that is June 2nd, 1992, we have this statement by

6 his sister and I wanted to show it to the witness.

7 A. I heard my sister say that there are 30 of them in one

8 room.

9 MR. MORAN: Excuse me, your Honour. As an aside --

10 MR. OSTBERG: I think I stood up first.

11 MR. MORAN: Okay.

12 MR. OSTBERG: I object to introducing this statement of this

13 sister. If my learned colleague Ms Residovic wants to

14 introduce it, she will have during her case to bring the

15 sister so the prosecution will have a chance to

16 cross-examine her. Thank you, your Honour.

17 JUDGE JAN: There is one thing about it. He has made a

18 statement with regard to what his sister had told him.

19 Now probably the defence wants to show his sister had

20 not told the same things to him. She has made up a

21 story that she was taken under torture, taken to one

22 place. This is what the defence wants to say, to

23 contradict what he says she told him.

24 MR. OSTBERG: Nevertheless, I can't see how a statement of a

25 person can be introduced in this way, even if the

1 witness is able to comment on it. So I stay with my

2 objection, your Honour.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. I have already indicated that it

4 might be difficult to justify the contradiction of his

5 statement with respect to a statement on which he formed

6 no grounds, and of which he was not even aware when it

7 was being made. If you have any other arguments to put

8 as a matter of your reasoning, let us hear it.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, may I make two comments?

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: First of all, during the time that we are

12 discussing this, the witness is over there making

13 statements without any questions being put to him at

14 all. I would ask the court to instruct the witness not

15 to make statements unless questions are put specifically

16 to him. He is not here to engage in the legal

17 arguments that we are making to the court.

18 Second, as this court knows, I am sure, full well,

19 there are two kinds of evidence. There is evidence

20 that is admitted in a court for what it shows itself,

21 for its own content. However, when you are trying to

22 impeach a witness, it is appropriate for evidence to be

23 admitted only going to the issue of that witness's

24 credibility, and I think what Ms Residovic is offering

25 here is not a statement of this witness's sister for its

1 content to be considered by the Tribunal as evidence,

2 but only for the purpose of attacking the credibility of

3 the witness.

4 Once the witness takes the stand, his credibility

5 is always in issue, and what I see happening here is an

6 attempt by Ms Residovic to attack the credibility of

7 this witness by proving through an outside of court

8 statement that what he has been telling the court is

9 untrue; not to offer that statement as evidence itself,

10 but only evidence that the witness is being untruthful,

11 and that is a whole different thing. That is, I think,

12 the purpose for which it is being offered and that is an

13 appropriate purpose.

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think we accept you can challenge

15 credibility by so many methods but when the source of

16 the challenge itself could itself be suspect, I think it

17 is a fairly difficult one to anticipate. It depends

18 also on the weight of what attaches to these things.

19 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, as an aside, the court has ruled

20 some time ago that in legal arguments it is the business

21 of the lawyers to present arguments to the court and the

22 business of the court to decide what the outcome should

23 be. I would ask the court to instruct this witness in

24 the future, when people are making legal arguments, not

25 to get involved in them.

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. It is very

2 good. You see, sometimes -- I appreciate your

3 difficulties and mine. Occasionally you get in

4 litigation one or two witnesses who are a little

5 difficult to deal with, but we will try to contain it as

6 we go along.

7 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, your Honour.

8 MR. GREAVES: It was a point that I raised, I think, some

9 weeks ago, and it is particularly obnoxious that the

10 witness should be allowed to snigger at the comments of

11 counsel for the defence. That's particularly offensive

12 and, in my submission, that in particular should be

13 prevented by your Honours.

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. Please let the

15 witness know that he stops talking the moment counsel is

16 speaking. You say nothing until -- you wait when

17 questions are put to you, and after questions are put to

18 you and you have answered, I think that is the end of

19 your own contribution until another question is put.

20 There is no dialogue between you and counsel, even when

21 asking questions to you. When they are developing

22 legal arguments, you are not a party to it. You have

23 counsel for the prosecution who takes up your own legal

24 arguments for you. It is not for you to be a party to

25 such arguments. Try and comport yourself and realise

1 that you are before a Trial Chamber which has so many

2 other ways of dealing with recalcitrant witnesses.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your

4 Honours. Thank you, my learned colleagues. May we

5 repeat this evidence, because it is relevant for the

6 credibility of this witness, with the sound, and it will

7 be used only for that purpose?

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): (Not translated).

10 THE INTERPRETER: The booths do not have a text.

11 "Answer: We were there all night at the school.

12 On Wednesday they let us go. We went home. We were

13 told not to move, that they would protect us. We

14 didn't go anywhere. My family and the neighbourhood,

15 we all got together in one apartment. We slept there

16 all in together. We are still sleeping together.

17 Question: How are the armed forces of Konjic

18 treating you?

19 Answer: Fine. I have nothing to say really."

20 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): What your sister just

21 said and what you said that she said are two different

22 things; is that true? Is there a difference between

23 what you said your sister said and what she said?

24 A. Could you please assist me? I can't hear. Thank

25 you. It is different, but I can't say why she said

1 that. She was there only for another twenty days and

2 then she was expelled, and she ended up in Cerici.

3 Q. I have no more questions, your Honours.

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. This is a

5 convenient point to have a break and we will --

6 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): I hope this is accepted

7 as evidence.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We will reassemble at 12 o'clock.

9 (11.30 am)

10 (Short break)

11 (12.00 noon)

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Find the witness and let him come in.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, may I ask

14 whether the exhibit of the videotape has been accepted

15 into evidence?

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, it was.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you.

18 (Witness returned to court)

19 Cross-examination by MR. GREAVES

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Kindly inform him he is still on his

21 oath.

22 THE REGISTRAR: I am reminding you, sir, that you are still

23 under oath?

24 A. I understand that.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Okay. Mr. Greaves, the witness is for

1 you.

2 MR. GREAVES: May it please your Honour, thank you very

3 much.

4 Mr. Kuljanin, I am going to be very short with you,

5 about ten minutes at the most; do you understand that?

6 A. Yes. Thank you.

7 Q. The questions that I am going to ask you require only

8 from you the answers "yes" or "no". Do you understand

9 that?

10 A. Can I not answer if it was -- if there was just a simple

11 "no"?

12 Q. That is all we need, "yes" or "no", Mr. Kuljanin; all

13 right?

14 A. The ones that I can answer, I will answer, and the ones

15 that I cannot, I will not.

16 Q. Thank you. If you keep to that, we will be finished as

17 quickly as possible. So listen to the questions and

18 answer them carefully, please.

19 A. I understand.

20 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, all your personal knowledge of Pavo Mucic

21 is based only on this: seeing him three or perhaps four

22 times in the camp; yes or no?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. One of those occasions, Mr. Kuljanin, was when you were

25 at the toilet pit; yes or no?

1 A. I was not in the pit. I was at the pit. I was not in

2 the pit.

3 Q. During your visit to that pit you saw Pavo Mucic and

4 Hazim Delic together?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And that is all that you saw; is it not?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. The other occasions when you saw Mr. Mucic were when he

9 came into Hangar Number 6; yes or no?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that was two, or at most three, times; yes or no?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And the purpose of those visits was this, was it not:

14 to call out names and to take people away; yes or no?

15 A. I think yes.

16 Q. After the names had been called out, the people left and

17 Mr. Mucic left; yes or no?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And the people were then driven away, no doubt because

20 you heard them being taken away; yes or no?

21 A. I apologise. I did not fully understood the question.

22 Q. I am sorry; I will make it clearer: the people were

23 driven away, and you were able to hear them being driven

24 away; is that right?

25 A. I saw them leaving the hangar. I don't know where they

1 went at that point.

2 Q. They were driven away, I think your evidence has been?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And the duration of Mr. Mucic's visits were just long

5 enough to read out those names and for the people to be

6 taken away from the hangar; yes or no?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. On none of those occasions did you ever personally speak

9 to Mr. Mucic; yes or no?

10 A. No.

11 Q. What it comes to is this, Mr. Kuljanin: your evidence is:

12 "I thought and believed Pavo Mucic was the commander.

13 This was my conviction"; yes or no?

14 A. I believed that Pavo Mucic was the camp commander, yes.

15 Q. That opinion is based on seeing him at most two or three

16 times in Hangar 6?

17 A. It is the overall situation; just looking into the

18 overall situation, I inferred that Pavo Mucic was the

19 camp commander.

20 Q. Your opinion was simply based on seeing him two or three

21 times in Hangar 6, once on the path with Hazim Delic and

22 never speaking to him; yes or no, Mr. Kuljanin?

23 A. I never spoke to Pavo Mucic.

24 Q. Now please answer the question, Mr. Kuljanin. Yes or

25 no?

1 A. It wasn't based only on those two or three meetings, so

2 the answer is no.

3 Q. Those were the only occasions when you were able to see

4 Mr. Mucic, and I suggest to you that is the only possible

5 basis for your opinion, Mr. Kuljanin. That is right, is

6 it not?

7 A. It is correct that is the number of occasions that I saw

8 him, but there are additional facts, on the basis of

9 which I inferred that Pavo Mucic was the camp commander.

10 Q. I have no further questions. Thank you.

11 A. You are welcome.

12 Cross-examination by MR. MORAN

13 MR. MORAN: May it please the court?

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can continue with the

15 witness.

16 MR. MORAN: Thank you, your Honour.

17 Good morning, sir.

18 A. Good day to you.

19 Q. I am Tom Moran and I am the attorney for Hazim Delic.

20 I am going to ask you a series of questions. It may

21 take a while. Most of them are going to be "yes" or

22 "no" questions. Basically let me tell you how I am

23 going to proceed. First, I am going to go through your

24 statement in some detail. Then I am going to go

25 through some things that you testified about, and those

1 may not be in any kind of particular order, but just so

2 you know where we are going.

3 Now, sometimes I talk a little fast, and sometimes

4 my questions may be a little hard to understand. If

5 that occurs, would you please stop me and ask me to

6 rephrase it? I will do it until you understand the

7 question; is that fair enough?

8 A. Yes. Thank you.

9 Q. Your Honour, I will having a little problem, if I can

10 just have a second. I am having a problem with the

11 headsets here. If you would just listen to the

12 question and answer it directly, I think we can get you

13 out of here and back home as quickly as possible. Is

14 that fair enough?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. Let us start. Who have you discussed your

17 testimony with, the testimony you have given here

18 yesterday and today?

19 A. I did not understand the question. With whom?

20 Q. With whom? What people have you discussed your

21 testimony with?

22 A. My testimony? My testimony yesterday, I did not talk to

23 anyone, just here.

24 Q. How about in preparation for your testimony here? Did

25 you talk to anyone about that?

1 A. There was a conversation. It took about 20 minutes.

2 That was the day when I arrived and it was with

3 Mr. Prosecutor.

4 Q. That is the only person you have discussed your

5 testimony with?

6 A. Yes, the only person, and last night I didn't talk to

7 anyone.

8 Q. How about before you left to come to The Hague? Did you

9 discuss your testimony with anyone then?

10 A. No, I did not. I live far away by myself.

11 Q. So you didn't discuss it with, for instance, the

12 Association of Detainees or a representative of the

13 Association of Detainees?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Okay. Let us go on to the point where you were

16 initially arrested. As I recall, your testimony from

17 yesterday, you said that when you were initially

18 arrested, detained, whatever word you want to use, the

19 person that was in charge was a guy named Juka -- I am

20 going to mispronounce the last name and I apologise for

21 that -- Prazina; is that correct?

22 A. It was a group of his men together with Juka Prazina.

23 Q. You said -- I believe your exact phrase was yesterday

24 that they beat you a little; is that right? Is that

25 what you testified to?

1 A. They beat us at that point not very hard.

2 Q. So when you testified yesterday that they beat you a

3 little -- I believe that is your exact words -- it was

4 not much of a beating; is that correct?

5 A. In comparison to Celebici, they did not beat us that

6 hard, so it was harder down there than what they beat

7 me, because that was lighter.

8 Q. Yes, sir. Now if you would answer my question, we will

9 be done a lot quicker?

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: When you try to compare degrees, it

11 might not be "yes" or "no". You are talking about

12 beating one a little and beating one more. It is the

13 degree.

14 MR. MORAN: His testimony yesterday, your Honour, was he was

15 beat a little.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Now you try to compare.

17 MR. MORAN: Was Pero Mrkajic with you when you were with

18 that group?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In fact, he was with you when you were initially

21 detained until you arrived at Celebici, was he not?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you remember back on 21st October 1995 giving a

24 statement to a representative of the Office of the

25 Prosecutor, a written statement?

1 A. I don't recall the exact date, but I did give a

2 statement.

3 Q. By the way, have you seen that statement since you

4 signed it? Has somebody shown you a copy, possibly

5 translated into Serbo-Croatian?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When did they show you that?

8 A. When I had -- when I was consulting with Mr. Prosecutor.

9 Q. Mr. Ostberg, the gentleman that was asking you the

10 questions, is that the person you are talking about?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. Do you remember saying in that statement that:

13 "The soldiers proceeded to beat us for about a

14 hour. They used the butts of their rifles and various

15 objects to hit us"?

16 Do you remember saying that in your statement?

17 A. Yes, they did beat us.

18 Q. For about an hour?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. They used the butts of their rifles and various other

21 objects to hit you with?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did Pero Mrkajic get the same kind of treatment?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Then after they beat you for a while, for about an hour,

1 they loaded you on some trucks, did they not?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And they drove you to Mt Igman, to a hotel named Famos;

4 is that not right?

5 A. In front of the Hotel Famos. That is correct, but it

6 was in front of the hotel.

7 Q. Okay. Fair enough. When you got to the hotel you

8 were forced to lie down on the ground, were you not?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. The soldiers beat you for about three hours there, did

11 they not?

12 A. We lay there on concrete for about three hours. They

13 occasionally would come and beat us and then they would

14 stop. They did not beat us three hours

15 uninterruptedly. They would come and go and beat us.

16 Q. When you said to the Office of the Prosecutor: "The

17 soldiers beat us for about three hours", that was an

18 exaggeration, was it not?

19 A. No, it was not an exaggeration.

20 Q. So they did beat you for about three hours?

21 A. I can say they beat me for two minutes and then waited

22 for twenty minutes and then five minutes' beating and

23 three minutes' break. We lay there for three hours.

24 If they didn't beat me, they beat someone else. So it

25 all took three hours. So it wasn't a single person who

1 was beaten for three hours. There was twelve of us and

2 then there was another group off to the side.

3 I recognised another two persons and there were multiple

4 persons, and they were going back and forth, and we lay

5 there. I don't know how else to express it. We lay

6 there for three hours and we all together were beaten

7 for three hours.

8 Q. Pero Mrkajic got the same treatment that you did, did he

9 not?

10 A. The same. Yes, the same.

11 Q. In fact, your beating was so bad that you lost

12 consciousness, did you not?

13 A. I did not lose consciousness. I was sort of

14 semi-conscious. I was not completely unconscious, but

15 I wasn't quite myself.

16 Q. So if you said to the Officer of the Prosecutor that you

17 lost consciousness and you woke up; the 12 of you were

18 in another hotel in a room the people called Disco, was

19 that correct or incorrect?

20 A. I was not fully conscious and it wasn't a room. It was

21 some abandoned disco in a basement with a lot of water,

22 and it was mouldy.

23 Q. Okay. So you woke up, came around in a place called

24 the Disco, which was in the basement of another hotel;

25 is that not right?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you were held there for about a day; right? About

3 24 hours?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Every two or three hours people came in and beat you,

6 did they not?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And they were throwing knives between your hands -- your

9 fingers when they were apart like that, were they not

10 (indicating)?

11 A. Yes, correct.

12 Q. Okay. By the way, I notice that you testified

13 yesterday that you had done your military training, your

14 military service with the former JNA; is that right?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. You also testified that you had some training in school

17 prior to the time you did your military service; did you

18 not?

19 A. Correct. It was the student training after the first

20 year of college. It was fifteen years student

21 training.

22 Q. In my country they have a thing called the Reserve

23 Officer Training Corps, where college students are

24 trained to be officers in the military. Was that the

25 same kind of training, teaching you leadership skills

1 and things like that?

2 A. No.

3 Q. What kind of training was it?

4 A. It was a student training that was set in law and every

5 student had to go there after the first year in college

6 during the summer break. Every student had to go to

7 this training for fifteen days. Every male student

8 after the first year of college had to go there during

9 the summer vacation for fifteen days to the student

10 training, the military training. Later it was

11 abandoned, but in this period that was the law, so

12 that's how it was.

13 Q. Yes, sir, and I understand that you followed the law.

14 The question was: was the training -- let me try it a

15 different way. Was that training to teach you to be a

16 private soldier -- do you know what a private soldier

17 is, your basic private in the army -- or was it training

18 to teach you to be an officer and a leader?

19 A. No, no, no. Everybody had to do it, so it wasn't -- no

20 officer, no commanding training. I can say that it was

21 an aspect -- it was like a military exercise. It was

22 like a military training of the civilian population.

23 That's how you could describe it. It wasn't for

24 military officers. It was just the law that all men

25 after the first year of college had to go off to this

1 student training.

2 Q. It was part of the all people's defence, was it not?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Basically what it was training to do was to teach young

5 men in Yugoslavia how to be partisans so, in case

6 someone invaded your country, you would be able to go to

7 the hills and defend your country; is that not right?

8 A. Yes, I think that is how it was.

9 Q. When you were taking your military training, either

10 doing your regular military service or doing these

11 fifteen-day training camps that you went to, were you in

12 any large military installations?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you stay in any place like barracks, where they

15 would have a fairly large number of troops stationed and

16 they would live there, or did you just live out in the

17 woods in tents, or what?

18 A. We were not in the barracks. We were somewhere else.

19 Q. Where, for instance, did you sleep?

20 A. Under the tents.

21 Q. Okay. There were fairly large numbers of troops there?

22 A. Well, as I said, all the students who were -- who were

23 the students who had finished the first year of college,

24 they would come there. They had to go there.

25 Q. Is that 5 people or 5,000 people or somewhere in

1 between? That is what I am trying to get at?

2 A. Around 1,000, and that was in shifts.

3 Q. Was that the same kind of thing that happened when you

4 did your regular military service?

5 A. Approximately the same.

6 Q. When you had that many people around, there were a lot

7 of facilities for those people, were there not, things

8 like kitchens, showers?

9 A. Everything was provided.

10 Q. Sure. When you have a lot of people around, they

11 designed the places where you got your training to have

12 those things, because they had a lot of people there;

13 right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, yesterday you showed some great familiarity with

16 the Celebici barracks. You are pretty familiar with

17 the scene there, are you not?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Based on your experience as a former member of the

20 Yugoslav military, is that the kind of camp where the

21 Yugoslav Army would have stationed a large number of

22 troops or is it the type of place where they would

23 probably have a few troops doing specialised tasks?

24 A. Those were not specialised tasks. This was a basic

25 training. For instance, there was also training if

1 there were some natural disasters. So that was like

2 that. I would say rather it was training for civilian

3 population.

4 Q. Yes, sir.

5 A. It wasn't anything particular special. In fact, it is

6 well-known to all people who lived in the former

7 Yugoslavia at that time. They all had that

8 obligation. That was the law. We all had to go there

9 and we went.

10 Q. The question I asked you was about the Celebici barracks

11 and the Celebici camp, not about where you did your

12 basic training. Now let us try it again. Based on

13 your experience as a member of the JNA, is the Celebici

14 camp, given the facilities that were there that you are

15 familiar with, the type of facilities that the JNA would

16 have if they were going to station large numbers of

17 people there? Did it, for instance, have the showers,

18 the kitchens, the toilet facilities, the recreational

19 facilities, the kinds of things that one would expect to

20 find in a military camp?

21 A. I think not. I think that the Celebici installation

22 did not have that equipment. They were not equipped in

23 that way; if anything else, even for the hygiene.

24 I think that even on that basis I don't think that it

25 was for a lot of people. That is what I believe.

1 Q. In fact, given your experience around the camp, it was

2 designed to be a logistical base, where there would be

3 oil, gasoline supplies, maybe in the bunkers store food,

4 ammunition, weapons; in the hangars store vehicles; that

5 kind of thing; right?

6 A. From what I have seen in Celebici, it may be something

7 like that, but I am not any kind of an expert to really

8 assess that, whether it was special or not. It was the

9 first time that I encountered an ammunition hangar. It

10 was for the first time in Celebici when they forced me

11 to be there. Before that I had never seen it. If you

12 believe it, I had never entered a hangar of that kind

13 like the one over there, where they ate also.

14 Q. In fact, I do not know if there is a difference in

15 phraseology between Serbo-Croatian and English, but in

16 English when we think of a hangar, we generally think of

17 a place where you park aeroplanes, and buildings like we

18 see at Celebici we call a warehouse. Is that a fair

19 assessment?

20 A. Right. Maybe the difference is in the terminology

21 used. We call the hangar anywhere where the vehicles

22 would be parked. I have never been to a hangar where

23 aeroplanes are parked. Probably that too is called a

24 hangar, but in our terminology the place where you

25 parked vehicles were also called hangars, but also we

1 called the place where the ammunition was kept also a

2 hangar, but it could also be called a warehouse.

3 I think it is a difference in terminology.

4 Q. I think it is. I agree with you, sir. Let me back up

5 just a second to make sure that this is clear in the

6 record. By the time you and Pero Mrkajic and the rest

7 of your group arrived at the Celebici camp, you had been

8 beaten for about an hour with the butts of rifles by the

9 soldiers who had first detained you, and then you had

10 been beaten so badly that at least you became

11 semi-conscious over about a three-hour period outside

12 the Famos Hotel, and that you had been beaten somewhere

13 between eight and twelve times in the disco; is that

14 right?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. And those beatings in the disco -- what did they beat

17 you with in the disco? Rifle butts?

18 A. Mostly they kicked us.

19 Q. By the time that you had arrived at the Celebici camp,

20 you had been fairly severely injured, had you not?

21 A. In a way, yes, but I still was holding up. I could

22 still walk and move around, and after that beating they

23 forced us to load two trucks with grain, and it was

24 myself and another four people. There were two fat

25 trucks with 105 bags of grain.

1 Q. That was at the grain silo in Tarcin?

2 A. No. That was on Mt Igman in front of the hotel.

3 I think the name of the hotel was Marasiste. Five of

4 us were loading that grain. We recovered. I was

5 wondering how come that we were able to recover that

6 fast, but we did. So there was grain. There was

7 wheat and corn mixture and it was four or five of us,

8 and we loaded those trucks up, but that was the

9 condition I was in.

10 Q. Okay. Pero Mrkajic had also been beaten about the same

11 number of times you had before he got to the camp, had

12 he not?

13 A. We all were beaten about the same way. Maybe some of

14 them got a couple of blows more than another, but more

15 or less we were all beaten about the same. The only

16 issue was who was a bit stronger, who would have

17 withstood it better, things like that.

18 Q. Okay. Now when you got to the Celebici camp and you

19 were brought into Hangar 6, did somebody tell you where

20 to sit, or did you just pick a place? Which one, sir?

21 A. At that moment nobody told me where to sit or how.

22 Later on we were distributed by Delic.

23 Q. Okay. Fair enough. You said that, as I recall

24 yesterday, when you arrived at the camp, it appeared

25 that nobody was in charge. Is that a fair assessment

1 of your testimony from yesterday?

2 A. That was the impression I had, which need not mean that

3 that was what it was, because, after all, from the bus

4 I could not judge whether people were in command. On

5 top of it, the windows were misty. I just cleaned a

6 little bit with my elbow to see through. That was my

7 impression.

8 Q. Sir, the question was -- and let us try it one more

9 time -- the question was: was what I said a fair

10 assessment of your testimony yesterday; is that not

11 correct?

12 A. It seemed to me that really no one was in command,

13 because such things were happening I couldn't believe

14 that it was possible.

15 Q. Yes, sir. So if I said that your testimony yesterday

16 was that no one appeared to be in charge, that would be

17 a fair assessment of what you testified to yesterday;

18 right? That requires "yes" or "no".

19 A. That was my impression, that no one was in command.

20 Q. Okay. We will go on to something else. I will just

21 let that one slide.

22 Yesterday on direct examination you talked about

23 the food you were served. Do you know whether that

24 food was cooked in the Celebici camp or whether it was

25 brought in?

1 A. Whether it was cooked in the camp or brought in from

2 outside, I don't know.

3 Q. Okay. You were around the camp a lot, though, were you

4 not?

5 A. Around the camp? Once to the command building, when

6 I had to go to the toilet. Two or three times I was

7 told to unload shells and ammunition.

8 Q. Then, of course, you swept --

9 A. And that's all.

10 Q. Of course, you swept around the front gate a lot and in

11 front of the command building, did you not?

12 A. I was sweeping when I was brought over for interrogation

13 and while we were waiting in front of the command

14 building. We entered two by two. So while we were

15 waiting they gave us brooms, to me and another one, and

16 we swept in front of the command building and in front

17 of the entrance to the command building.

18 Q. Is that the only time you swept in the whole time you

19 were in Celebici?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When you were brought in for interrogation, by the way,

22 were your hands tied?

23 A. Our hands were not tied, but we had to raise them behind

24 our heads (indicating).

25 Q. So your hands were not tied, for instance, with wire,

1 barbed wire or anything like that, were they?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you see any other prisoners being brought in for

4 interrogation whose hands were tied with wire, barbed

5 wire, rope or anything like that, did you?

6 A. No. I didn't see it.

7 Q. Now, you arrived in Celebici, what, late May, early June

8 of 1992; right?

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. I am not very familiar with the weather in the Konjic

11 area in the summer, but is it -- what I am told it is

12 like -- are you having a problem hearing, sir? We can

13 have those adjusted?

14 A. I can hear you. Thank you.

15 Q. You just looked like the earphones were giving you a

16 problem. I was going to say we can get them adjusted

17 or do whatever it takes.

18 A. Sometimes, yes, I have some problems.

19 Q. Stop me if you have a problem and we will go over it

20 again, because I know you have lost some hearing in one

21 ear. I am a little short of hearing at times also, and

22 so I know exactly how you feel.

23 So you arrived, what, about 27th May, 28th May at

24 Celebici?

25 A. No. On 27th I started out from Jasika and he was

1 brought to Celebici. Whether it was 30th or 31st May

2 I really don't know. We ourselves asked often what

3 date it was. We didn't know. We lost count. We

4 lost count by a day or two.

5 Q. So it was about -- if I call it about June 1st, you are

6 not going to argue with that? You will not quibble with

7 me over that, will you?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. You were there essentially through, what, roughly the

10 end of August?

11 A. I know that exactly. I was there until 31st August.

12 Q. That is exactly the end of August. What is the weather

13 like in Konjic at that time of year? It is hot, is it

14 not? It gets real hot and miserable, does it not?

15 A. Sometimes it is very hot, but the nights are very

16 cool. During the day-time it gets hot and at

17 night-time sometimes temperatures drop considerably.

18 Q. Do you remember an incident or a happening some time

19 early in your detention there, where some people had

20 blankets and other people did not? Do you recall that?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. Was that a "yes"? That was a "yes" answer, sir?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I had a problem hearing also. Do you recall Hazim

25 Delic splitting up the blankets, having them cut up so

1 as many people as possible could have some part of a

2 blanket?

3 A. Yes. Hazim Delic gave orders, but still everybody

4 couldn't get a piece. There was a shortage of

5 blankets. Maybe half of the people got a piece, but

6 there just wasn't enough, but I remember him giving such

7 orders, but there wasn't enough to go round.

8 Q. But he spread them around as best he could, so that as

9 many people as possible could have some blanket; is that

10 a fair assessment of what occurred?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. By the way, did you -- strike that.

13 Let me go to the death of Scepo Gotovac and talk

14 to you about that; okay? As I understand your

15 testimony, and let me find my notes on that from this

16 morning, he was called out and then brought back into

17 the -- to Hangar 6, and then someone nailed something to

18 his head; is that what occurred?

19 A. That didn't happen, but I didn't see what it was. At

20 first I thought it was a nail.

21 Q. That is the next question I had. You said in your

22 statement he was brought back with the guards, put on

23 the ground and with a hammer they nailed an object to

24 his forehead. Is that what occurred, right about

25 here (indicating)?

1 A. Somewhere there. I was quite some distance away, so

2 I couldn't see exactly what it was, but it was on his

3 forehead.

4 Q. The question I am talking about is: they took a nail and

5 a hammer and hammered it like you would a picture to a

6 wall?

7 A. This was quite far away, and I really didn't see it.

8 I just saw it later on when they lifted him up a little,

9 that this was nailed to his forehead. I didn't see

10 whether it was actually nailed inside, because we all

11 had to bow our heads all the time.

12 Q. Okay. So you don't know whether someone actually

13 hammered a nail into his man's skull or not. Is that

14 what you are telling the Trial Chamber?

15 A. One of the guards said: "Who takes this out can expect

16 the same to happen to him", and then he cursed our

17 mother.

18 Q. Yes, sir. Now let us try it again: you do not know

19 whether someone actually hammered a nail into that man's

20 skull or not, do you?

21 A. I saw it nailed in, because they brought the man in, and

22 I saw something shiny on his forehead. What exactly it

23 was I don't know.

24 Q. So they didn't do it in the hangar? That did not occur

25 in the hangar, did it, or did it? I am not sure what

1 you are testifying to. We can clear that up. Did

2 this hammering or nailing occur inside the hangar or did

3 it occur outside the hangar?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. So the statement that you gave to the Office of the

6 Prosecutor that:

7 "Later Scepo was brought back by the guards and

8 put on the ground and with a hammer they nailed an

9 object to his forehead."

10 You do not know about that. You do not know

11 whether that is a true or a false statement?

12 A. It is a true statement, because I saw the

13 consequences. I saw something nailed to the man's

14 forehead. I don't know what. Who nailed it in and how

15 I don't know, but I claim that something was nailed to

16 the man's forehead.

17 Q. Yes, sir. What I am trying to get at is you did not

18 see this occur. You saw the results of what happened,

19 but you did not see it occur; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Fine. Let us go on to something else.

22 Sir, are you familiar, and you may not be, and if

23 you are not, that is fine -- are you familiar with

24 whether the soldiers who were stationed at Celebici

25 engaged in what, for lack of a better term, I will call

1 target practice inside the camp? Did you hear a lot of

2 gunfire going on all the time, or was it a rare thing to

3 hear a shot fired?

4 A. You mean were they firing at the detainees or ..?

5 Q. No. What I am getting at is when you were in the army

6 and when I was in the army, we went to a rifle range and

7 we did target practice at targets, not at people, but to

8 learn how to shoot, to practise how to shoot. Did that

9 kind of thing go on at Celebici? Did you hear any of

10 that? You would hear the gunshots, would you not?

11 A. Often there was firing. The guards were shooting when

12 they were on guard and at night-time and during the

13 day-time they would fire in the direction of women

14 passing by along the railway line going from Sarajevo to

15 Mostar. They would fire at night. They would sing.

16 Occasionally they would bring large groups of people, so

17 we could hear the noise. We could hear them

18 practising.

19 Q. Okay. Let us talk a little bit about the women in the

20 camp. You testified earlier today you had only seen

21 one woman in the camp. I am looking at my notes for her

22 name. Do you recall her name?

23 A. Darinka Kuljanin.

24 Q. Is she a relation of yours, by the way?

25 A. No, she is not a relation of mine.

1 Q. Because that is a fairly common -- your last name is a

2 fairly common name; fair enough?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were you in a position to know whether there were other

5 women in the camp or to know whether they did things in

6 the camp? For instance, were you in a position to know

7 whether women on a regular basis swept around the

8 reception building? If you were not, you were not, and

9 that is fine. If you do not know, you do not know.

10 A. I did not see that, so I can't say anything about it.

11 Q. That is a fair answer, sir. You talked yesterday about

12 toilet facilities at the camp. Let me ask you a few

13 things about that. First, was there a bucket inside

14 Hangar 6 for use as a toilet facility?

15 A. At the beginning, no. Later, yes. I think just

16 before the International Red Cross came, but at first,

17 no.

18 Q. Now, based on what you saw around the camp, and again

19 you were -- did you see a lot of permanent toilet

20 facilities in the camp, flush toilets, for lack of a

21 better phrase?

22 A. No, I did not see them.

23 Q. When you were a member of the Yugoslav Army, the JNA,

24 did you, like I when I was a member of the US Army, get

25 training in what would be called field sanitation, how

1 to dig a latrine?

2 A. Yes, I did have training.

3 Q. In that kind of thing?

4 A. Yes, of course. We had training but the conditions

5 then were quite different from what we had there.

6 Q. I understand that, sir, but basically what I am trying

7 to get at is: if there were not permanent facilities

8 available, your army, my army, probably everybody's

9 army, teaches their soldiers to dig a deep pit and use

10 that for the facility, and then eventually fill it in;

11 is that not right? Is that a fair assessment?

12 A. There was a pit, yes, only sometimes they wouldn't let

13 us go out of the hangar to reach that place.

14 Q. Yes, sir. Let us try this again. Basically the

15 training that you received and the standard of training

16 in the Yugoslav national army would be that if there

17 were no permanent toilet facilities, one would dig a

18 deep pit and use that for the facility, and then

19 eventually fill it in. Was that the training that you

20 were given?

21 A. Something to that effect, yes, though we had improvised

22 toilets that could -- collapsible toilets. There

23 were -- some kind of protection on top of the pit.

24 Here there was nothing. We had field toilets in the

25 army with some kind of protection outside, but here

1 there was nothing. Of course later we would fill them

2 in, as you said.

3 Q. Let me jump back to something. Ms. Kuljanin the only

4 woman that you saw, where was she when you saw her? If

5 you want to use the pointer and Prosecution Exhibit --

6 I guess it is Prosecution 2, the model -- that is fine?

7 A. She was here (pointing). There is a window there.

8 She could hardly recognise me.

9 Q. Which window -- there are several windows in that

10 building, sir. Do you recall which one it was?

11 A. No. I can't remember, because I didn't dare lift my

12 head. I just sort of peeped out. I caught a glimpse

13 of her. Later on she told me that she could hardly

14 recognise me. I just waved a little. We didn't talk

15 or anything, nor did we have any contact.

16 Q. Okay. About when was that?

17 A. I think there must be a date somewhere. The day I was

18 taken for interrogation to the command building.

19 Q. That was shortly after you arrived at Celebici?

20 A. I am not quite sure, but about some 20 days after my

21 arrival in Celebici, I think; something around that.

22 Q. So if we say give or take a few days, June 20th, you are

23 not going to quibble with me over that, are you?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Okay. Fair enough.

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr. Moran, I think we can stop now.

2 MR. MORAN: Actually, your Honour, I think I am about to

3 pass the witness. Let me do that. Let me pass the

4 witness, your Honour. Thank you very much.

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: So that is the end of your

6 cross-examination?

7 MR. MORAN: It will be it, your Honour. Thank you very

8 much.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Okay. Thank you very much. So we

10 will break for lunch and come back at 2.30.

11 (1.00 pm)

12 (Luncheon Adjournment)

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1 (2.30 pm)

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please invite the witness.

3 (Witness returns to court)

4 Cross-examination by MR. ACKERMAN

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The witness is all for you.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you very much, your Honours.

7 Mr. Kuljanin, my name is --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, sir.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.

10 Mr. Kuljanin, my name is John Ackerman. I am an

11 attorney for Esad Landzo. I will be asking you a

12 number of questions, many of which I will attempt to

13 phrase in a way that you can answer with either a "yes"

14 or a "no". Some of the questions clearly will not call

15 for "yes" or "no" answers. If I ask you to answer the

16 question "yes" or "no", and you feel that you are unable

17 to do that, could you please advise me, so that I may be

18 able to rephrase the question in a way that you can

19 answer it "yes" or "no"; would that be fair?

20 A. That is fair, yes.

21 Q. Okay. At some time in the last perhaps year you were

22 told by the prosecutors, were you not, that members of

23 the defence would like to speak with you and talk with

24 you about your experiences?

25 A. I was no member of any defence.

1 Q. Was there not a time when the prosecutors told you that

2 we would like to talk to you, the defence attorneys

3 would like to talk to you, about your testimony, to

4 interview you?

5 A. Yes. That is correct. I did not agree to that.

6 Q. You refused to be interviewed by members of the defence

7 team, did you not?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. Now, you recall when you were first brought in here

10 yesterday you read an oath. Do you remember reading

11 that oath?

12 A. I remember that. I remember it well.

13 Q. Have you ever taken such an oath in any similar

14 proceeding at any other time in your life?

15 A. Until now I have never been to the court and I never had

16 any encounters either with the police or the court,

17 except in the camp.

18 Q. Do you understand that by taking that oath you are under

19 a special obligation to tell the truth?

20 A. In general in my life when I undertake an obligation

21 I fulfil it, and I undertook the obligation to speak the

22 truth here.

23 Q. The same way you undertook the obligation to speak the

24 truth when you were first interviewed by the prosecutors

25 in this case and gave a statement that was given to them

1 in writing; correct?

2 A. That is correct. It is correct that I said that

3 I would speak the truth.

4 Q. Yes. You see no difference between your obligation then

5 and your obligation now to speak the truth, do you?

6 A. I undertook the obligation at that time that I would

7 speak the truth and I will continue to do that until the

8 end of my life.

9 Q. You will not tell us at any time during your testimony

10 today that you failed to tell the truth to the

11 prosecutors when they interviewed you, will you?

12 A. It is possible that a mistake may have occurred and

13 I also forgot things. There may have also been lapses

14 in language. Other than that, nothing.

15 Q. That same thing, of course, would be true then with the

16 testimony that you have given here before this

17 Tribunal. You could have made mistakes. There could

18 have been lapses in your memory; correct?

19 A. I rarely make mistakes, but anybody can make one, but

20 I rarely make them. I always think about things first

21 before I do them, and then I do it. Also this is a

22 very specific situation. It is my first time as a

23 witness. It is the first time that I am doing

24 testimony, and all eyes are trained at me, and so it's a

25 bit awkward, and it is possible that I have omitted

1 something. It is possible, but if you can point to

2 those omissions, we can correct them and we can come to

3 an agreement.

4 Q. At the time you gave your statement to the prosecutors

5 you felt that that was also important and that you were

6 under an obligation at that point to be as complete and

7 truthful in your responses as possible. Is that not a

8 fair statement?

9 A. That is also what I felt, and I think that I did that as

10 well, even though I did not say everything I could in

11 this short period of time, that it is very constrained,

12 the period of time. I would have liked a bit longer

13 time. I understand that it would potentially have

14 dragged on, but maybe witnesses should be given more

15 time to come to get into specifics and into details.

16 Q. Are you talking about giving testimony here before this

17 Tribunal, that you wanted more time?

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I hope you are not deliberately

19 provoking dialogue between two of you.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: I am sorry, your Honour?

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I hope you are not deliberately

22 provoking dialogue between two of you.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: No, your Honour, I am not.

24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: So try and get to the root of it.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: I shall. Could you give us the names of

1 every person that you talked to about your testimony

2 within the last week? We know you talked to the

3 Prosecutor, but we do not know who else you might have

4 talked to. Was there anyone else that you talked to

5 about your testimony?

6 A. I did not talk to anyone.

7 Q. Well, you did talk to the Prosecutor; correct?

8 A. I talked at the beginning when I first came and I said

9 that already, and we talked -- I don't know how long,

10 half an hour, 40 minutes. After that I didn't talk to

11 anyone else. That was when I first arrived to The

12 Hague.

13 Q. I understand that, and that is clear. What I am trying

14 to clarify is: there was no one else that you talked to

15 at the same time or around that same time?

16 A. No, I did not talk to anyone else.

17 Q. You were asked by the Prosecutor -- I want to go now to

18 the time when you were in Bradina with your family --

19 you were asked by the Prosecutor whether or not you had

20 a weapon when the village was attacked. Do you

21 remember that question?

22 A. I remember that question and I did not possess any

23 weapons.

24 Q. Do you remember that your answer was: "No, none, neither

25 me nor my father, nor anyone"?

1 A. In my house. Maybe this was a mistake, that is

2 "neither anyone", but I stay by my statement that

3 neither myself nor my father had any weapons.

4 Q. What you said then was:

5 "I can assert that with full confidence."

6 Do you remember saying that?

7 A. Yes, with full confidence. I bear all responsibility

8 in case it is not so. Maybe we misunderstood each

9 other. I said neither myself, nor my father, and

10 I assert that with full responsibility for the

11 consequences of that regarding possession of weapons.

12 Q. And that question was limited, of course, to the time

13 that the village was attacked, was it not?

14 A. Yes, that period of time, and that was my understanding

15 of the question.

16 Q. Of course it was. After you left Bradina and went into

17 the hills and were arrested, at the time you were

18 arrested, you did have weapons, did you not?

19 A. No, none of us had anything, meaning weapons.

20 Q. No rifles, no guns of any kind with the 20 people that

21 you were arrested with?

22 A. I was arrested with a group of 12 people, and none of

23 them had any weapons among us.

24 Q. Give us the names as near as you can remember of those

25 12 people you were arrested with, and as you give those

1 names, say them very distinctly and slowly so they can

2 be properly put in the transcript?

3 A. My group were the following people: Pero Mrkajic, that

4 is Pero Mrkajic; Dordije Dordic, so that is Dordije

5 Dordic; Mirko Dordic; Zdravko Dordic; Velimir Dordic;

6 Dobrivoje Dordic; Momcilo Dordic; Radovan Gligorevic;

7 Radovan Mr.sic; myself, Dragan Kuljanin. I don't know

8 how many I have counted. It was twelve of us.

9 Q. Those are the ones that you can remember and if it was

10 12, then it is all 12; correct?

11 A. Then that's it.

12 Q. Okay. Mr. Moran talked to you at some length about your

13 treatment by the persons who arrested you and the

14 treatment that you received prior to arriving in

15 Celebici. I want to focus on that just very briefly.

16 During that period of time as a result of the beatings

17 when you were forced in front of this hotel to lie on

18 the sidewalk, during those beatings you either lost

19 consciousness or nearly lost consciousness; correct?

20 A. Not completely, but partly, yes, I agree with you on

21 that. Partly I was in some kind of a swoon. I don't

22 know how -- it was not a coma. It is not that I did

23 not know, but I could not register everything. I could

24 not take in everything. My senses were reduced to a

25 minimum.

1 Q. You recall, do you not, in your statement to the

2 prosecutors what you said was that you were rendered

3 unconscious and you woke up at the next location that

4 you were taken?

5 A. I arrived there. The senses -- I regained senses, so

6 I could perceive more. That is what I was referring

7 to. I could register more things than previously, and

8 I felt better, and things like that. That is what

9 I had in mind, not that I completely -- I was not led by

10 anyone or carried by anyone. I was walking on my own

11 power, but it was like staggering. I had never felt

12 like that before ever. Maybe I did not express it

13 well.

14 Q. During these beatings prior to your arrival at Celebici

15 we know that you were beaten upon arrest with rifle

16 butts. What other kind of things were you beaten with?

17 A. They kicked me. Some sticks, things like that.

18 Q. What parts of your body were you beaten upon?

19 A. Legs, the back, arms.

20 Q. Head?

21 A. They did not beat me much over the head. I know one

22 kicked me right here on the legs. Maybe one blow came

23 over here (gesturing), here.

24 Q. Is it not a blow to the head that usually causes one to

25 lose consciousness?

1 A. I don't know. I was never a boxer, so I really don't

2 know.

3 Q. So you have no experience with that at all?

4 A. Before that, none.

5 Q. Certainly you were never beaten at Celebici to the point

6 that you lost consciousness. You have not told us

7 anything about that in all your testimony; correct?

8 A. No. I never lost consciousness. At one point Zenga

9 hit me here with a knife --

10 Q. Excuse me. I think that was one of those questions that

11 could have been answered real easily "yes" or "no", do

12 you not? Did you lose consciousness as a result of a

13 beating at Celebici; yes or no?

14 A. Completely, no.

15 Q. All right. You said in your statement to the

16 prosecutors that it was 9 o'clock pm when you arrived at

17 Celebici in the bus?

18 A. Around 9. It could have been 9.30, because none of us

19 had a watch. They were taken away from us. They took

20 money and gold. So we could not orient ourselves. We

21 could orient ourselves by how dark it was. Nobody had

22 a watch to say that it was this much time. So I am

23 saying around 9 o'clock, because before dusk they --

24 they drove us before dusk. So when does the dusk fall

25 on 30th or 31st May or 1st June? That I don't know.

1 In any event at a time when it was growing dark.

2 I think it was around 9, 9.00, 9.30, something like

3 that.

4 Q. So you were just guessing at the time when you told the

5 Prosecutor it was at 9 o'clock?

6 A. Yes. I said "around 9 o'clock". It is not guessing.

7 It is to the best of my memory around 9 o'clock.

8 Nobody knew exactly.

9 Q. There then came a time when you actually entered into

10 Hangar Number 6 from the bus; correct?

11 A. I did not enter.

12 Q. I think that is a question that could be answered "yes"

13 or "no". Can you just answer the question "yes" or "no"

14 -- I am just trying to direct your attention to the

15 time you went inside the building, however you got

16 there, okay, not how you got there?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When you got inside the building, my question is: were

19 the lights on in the building?

20 A. No. There was no light. Occasionally four or five

21 times Delic turned on the light but in the hangar there

22 was no light, not that day. Delic turned the light on

23 four or five times when he would come at night and took

24 out people who were to unload and load shells. He went

25 to the hangar. He turned on the light. He would pick

1 the people who were to go and after that he would

2 immediately turn it off. During my stay there it

3 happened over 92 or 93 days -- this is the correction

4 from 96 days -- this happened four or five times, that

5 the light was turned on during the night.

6 Q. Was the light switch in a place where the prisoners

7 could turn the lights on and off?

8 A. No. We did not know where they were turning it on from

9 or where they were turning it off from.

10 Q. So there was no way for the prisoners to light the

11 inside of the building; correct?

12 A. The only time it would come from the vehicles, because

13 the tin did not go all the way down to the concrete.

14 Sometimes it was raised maybe a centimetre somewhere, or

15 two centimetres. If a vehicle came by, if it passed

16 and it lit the area, then you could see and maybe see

17 the silhouettes. Sometimes you could even recognise a

18 person if you knew this person better.

19 Q. But otherwise it was totally dark inside throughout the

20 whole night; correct?

21 A. That is correct, except for those four or five times.

22 Q. Yes. How many chairs were in the hangar?

23 A. Chairs? I don't recall a single chair being there.

24 There were two or three concrete -- it's made of

25 concrete. It's like blocks, slabs, but I don't recall

1 any chairs being there.

2 Q. Were you positioned so that you sat on those slabs

3 instead of the floor then?

4 A. No, no, no. We sat on the floor. There were two or

5 three of those concrete things near the entrance, but we

6 were sitting on the floor on the concrete.

7 Q. At any of the time that you were in Hangar 6 did you

8 ever have a chair to sit on?

9 A. On one occasion I said that Zenga took us out -- it was

10 the four of us -- in front of the hangar, and that's

11 where we sat down on those slabs. I never sat on any

12 chair.

13 Q. Right. Your Honours, I would like to ask the

14 assistance of the usher in giving the witness a copy of

15 his written statement to the Prosecutor.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He will assist in giving him his

17 statement. (Handed).

18 A. I apologise. What am I supposed to do now?

19 MR. ACKERMAN: I am going to ask you some questions about

20 it. I just wanted you to have it in front of you. If

21 you will look on the second page, page 2, you are

22 describing the building, the hangar. Do you see that,

23 where you say:

24 "The walls were made of aluminium. The roof was

25 metallic"?

1 Do you see that?

2 A. Believe me, I am not a tinsmith. If I said "tin",

3 I meant metal, some kind of metal. I may have said

4 tin. I may have said metal, sheet steel. For me it's

5 all the same thing. I am not an expert in these

6 things.

7 Q. I really do not want to quarrel with you about that. I

8 am trying to show you where in the statement that I want

9 to direct your attention. I want to direct your

10 attention to the place where you are describing the

11 building. When you tell me you have found that place,

12 then I will have a question for you. Look on the next

13 page, there.

14 A. A metal structure.

15 Q. I just want you to find the place and then I will ask a

16 question. I think you have found the place. Now my

17 question is this: did you not say in your statement

18 that:

19 "The building had only one entrance and no

20 windows"?

21 A. There was one entrance that we went through and no

22 windows in the traditional sense. These were openings

23 that you could just open this way towards you a little

24 bit, but you couldn't open them like a normal window

25 would open. For me there is a difference between an

1 opening and a window. A window is something with

2 glass, that you can see through that glass. This was a

3 piece of -- let me call it aluminium or whatever. When

4 you close it, you can't see anything through it, but if

5 you open it a little bit, then you can see a little.

6 For me that is not a window. It is an opening. A

7 window is something with a glass. If you can see

8 through it. That's what I meant to say.

9 Q. Let me ask you this question again. I am not asking

10 you what you meant to say. What I am asking you is:

11 does the statement not say -- yes or no -- does the

12 statement not say:

13 "There was only one entrance and no windows"?

14 Is that not what your statement says; yes or no?

15 A. "There was one entrance and there were no windows."

16 Q. Thank you. That is all.

17 A. Openings.

18 Q. Nothing more. Now if you look at the bottom of that

19 page, at the bottom of that page you are describing a

20 situation where a guard came, ordered you to sit on a

21 chair and crushed your feet. Do you see that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So you have found that in the statement; correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You told the Tribunal yesterday about that incident,

1 that you were sitting on the floor and that the guard

2 came up to you and crushed your feet while you were

3 sitting on the floor. That was your testimony

4 yesterday, was it not? Yes or no? Yes or no, please?

5 A. We didn't understand one another, sir. It doesn't say

6 that here.

7 "Another guard called Landzo, known as Zenga, beat

8 me regularly, asking me to give him money and gold, to

9 leave me in peace."

10 It should say here:

11 "On one occasion he hit me with the bayonet of his

12 rifle, which wounded me in the forehead and caused me to

13 pass out. I was sitting in my place", and this is on

14 another occasion.

15 Here it says "on one occasion" and here it says

16 "on another occasion". "The same guard came and

17 ordered me", this is another occasion and a different

18 situation. Maybe you didn't understand it well. This

19 was one occasion and that's what it says, "on one

20 occasion", and here it says "on another occasion". It

21 didn't happen at the same time, nor in the same place.

22 It was a different time and a different place. That's

23 what it says here.

24 Q. I understand perfectly well. I do not misunderstand

25 you at all. My question is: does it not say in the

1 statement that you were sitting in a chair when the

2 guard crushed your feet? It says that in the statement,

3 does it not? Yes or no?

4 A. This may be written down by mistake. He came to my

5 place where I was sitting, and that is where he crushed

6 my feet, and another occasion he took me out, the four

7 of us, and forced us to sit down. Then he pushed the

8 bomb in my mouth and he beat me. I can give you the

9 names too of the people who were with me. Risto

10 Vukalo. I was next to him.

11 Q. So anything that is in your statement that you gave to

12 the prosecutors that disagrees with the testimony that

13 you gave to this Tribunal you are now saying is a

14 mistake; correct?

15 A. No. It is not worded well. All of these things

16 happened and I can again explain in detail where and

17 when and how these things happened, and when, and who

18 was with me, where and at what time.

19 Q. Excuse me. I am not interested in what you can

20 explain. I am asking you to look at the statement and

21 tell me whether or not the statement says what I am

22 saying that it says. That is the only question that I

23 am asking you. Now I am going to ask you another

24 question. Find in the statement and show me where in

25 the statement you talk about Landzo putting a grenade in

1 your mouth. Where is that in the writing you have in

2 front of you?

3 A. I don't know. Is it in the statement? I think I spoke

4 about it but I am not 100 per cent sure. I haven't

5 read it all through yet.

6 Q. Well, I represent to you that it's not in the

7 statement. If you want to read the entire statement to

8 see if I am correct, you are free to do that.

9 A. Very well. So I forgot to say that. If it's not

10 there, I forgot to mention it. I forgot many other

11 things that I couldn't recall at that moment. This is

12 all in highly concise form, one occasion and then

13 another occasion, and all this is in five lines.

14 Q. Let me explain to you my concern. There was a time

15 when you were asked to give a statement to the

16 prosecutors about your experiences in Celebici, and that

17 is the statement you have in front of you. In that

18 statement you talked about being put in a building that

19 had no windows. In that statement you talked about

20 having your feet crushed while you were sitting in a

21 chair inside that building. I propose to you that it

22 was only after you found out that that building, in

23 fact, did have windows and did not have chairs that your

24 testimony changed. One could even wonder if you were

25 ever really at Celebici?

1 MR. OSTBERG: Your Honour, I object to a suggestion like

2 that. We have been listening to a witness who has been

3 subjected to the most horrendous mistreatment for 100

4 days, almost, in his life. Now the counsel stands up

5 and questions has he ever been there. I think that is

6 improper, your Honour.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I was not testifying, of

8 course. I was simply confronting the witness.

9 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, whether or not this witness was

10 mistreated is a matter for your Honours and your Honours

11 alone to decide. It is not a matter for counsel for

12 the prosecution to advance his opinion.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually we have not gone that far.

14 I think it is merely cross-examination as to what he

15 said before he came here.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: I am sorry, your Honour. May I proceed

17 now?

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.

20 I want to move on now, Mr. Kuljanin, to the issue

21 of food at the prison; okay?

22 A. We didn't clear this up --

23 Q. I am not asking you a question. I am telling you that

24 I want to talk to you about the food you received in the

25 prison. I am asking you no other question. I am not

1 expecting an answer from you. Please do not answer a

2 question that I have not asked you.

3 A. Please do not insult me. How can you say -- how can

4 you question whether I was there or not? This is an

5 insult. I feel offended and please, your Honours, do

6 not allow this to happen. I appeal to you.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think let us get our bearings.

8 When he asks you a question, try and keep to the

9 question. I think that will limit diverting from what

10 we are here for. Just limit it, not to expand the

11 horizon of what we are here for. What counsel was

12 trying to point out was that there were differences

13 between statements you made before you came here and

14 what your testimony has been here. So I think that is

15 a legitimate thing to point out. If there are any

16 reasons why you were unable at that time to have said it

17 all, you can explain. There is nothing wrong there.

18 No inference can be drawn.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: I want to talk to you now about the food that

20 you received while you were at Celebici; okay?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You know during the time you were at Celebici that there

23 was a war going on; yes or no?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You know at the time you were at Celebici that the

1 village of Konjic was being shelled on a regular basis;

2 correct?

3 A. We heard that there was shooting and shelling. What

4 and who we didn't know.

5 Q. And you know, do you not, in times of war that food

6 supplies were frequently interrupted by shelling, by

7 roads being closed and for various other reasons;

8 correct?

9 A. It didn't happen to me, only here, so I was never at war

10 before or after, since that. I was there at the time

11 and I saw that there was no food. Why there was no

12 food I don't know, nor did anyone explain to us why

13 there was no food.

14 Q. You have no idea, do you, how much food was available in

15 Konjic or Celebici, the village of Celebici, during this

16 time because of the war; correct? You don't know?

17 A. I don't know. How could I know?

18 Q. So you do not know whether food was being deliberately

19 withheld from you or was simply unavailable, do you?

20 A. I don't know, but we did not have food. What was the

21 reason I don't know, but we did not have food.

22 Q. I am sure you have heard from the press, from your

23 knowledge of this case, that in several villages and

24 cities the people who were living in the cities were

25 going hungry that they had no food; correct?

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. At the time you arrived in Celebici, the first day you

3 arrived there, can you tell me approximately how much

4 you weighed?

5 A. I was about -- I weighed about 85 kilograms.

6 Q. Now the Prosecutor asked you a few moments ago about a

7 medical exam that you received after you had been

8 released from confinement. Do you remember the medical

9 exam that I am referring your attention to?

10 A. I do, of course.

11 Q. How much did you weigh at the time of that medical exam?

12 A. I don't remember. I didn't go for those medical exams

13 immediately after release from detention, because it

14 took time for me to go from Kalinovik to Niksic and then

15 to Belgrade. There was no transportation. It took

16 some time. I had to wait for connections, then to find

17 a doctor, and the interval must have been two or three

18 months. I didn't have money. I didn't have my

19 medical card, medical insurance card. I didn't know

20 anything, where I should go, what I should do. I had

21 pains. I was under pain. At first I --

22 Q. Excuse me. Do you remember the question that I asked

23 you? The question that I asked you was: how much did

24 you weigh at the time of that exam? Was that a hard

25 question for you to understand?

1 A. I don't remember how much I weighed.

2 Q. Okay. That is enough. That is all I asked for, how

3 much you weighed. If you do not know, you can just

4 tell me you do not know without the speech; okay? Okay?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. All right. In your testimony before this court you

7 told the court about many occasions when the person you

8 knew as Zenga would call people out of the hangar and

9 that then they would come back, having been beaten;

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You have no way of knowing, do you, who it was that beat

13 them while they were outside?

14 A. While they were outside I have no way of knowing.

15 I could only recognise by the voice and the house and

16 the screams of the people who were being taken outside,

17 but the voice was a specific voice.

18 Q. The voice of Zenga asking them to come outside was a

19 specific voice. You recognised that; correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. But who was beating them, whether it was Zenga or

22 soldiers from another location, having nothing to do

23 with Celebici, or other guards, you have no idea,

24 because you could not observe what was happening outside

25 when you were inside; correct?

1 A. I personally could not see, but from what people said --

2 Q. Your Honour, I am going to object to him answering any

3 further about what people said. My only question was:

4 you could not see; and he said you could not?

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He has said that.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you. You have told this court that

7 when you were seated inside the building that one of the

8 rules was that you had to keep your heads bowed at all

9 times; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Your Honour, I have a photograph that I had the

12 technical people scan for me. I have shown it to the

13 Prosecutor. The technical people know it as D3/1,

14 I believe. I would like to have it marked and also ask

15 the technical people to put it on the monitor so that

16 the witness can see it. It is a poor photograph. It

17 comes from a newspaper, but it is the best we can do.

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What is it supposed to portray?

19 A. On one occasion television came --

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it is a photograph taken of

21 prisoners inside Hangar 6. I want to ask him if it

22 represents the way they were seated inside the hangar,

23 and if it is a visual representation of the way they

24 were seated inside the hangar. I think it is on the

25 monitor now, so you can see what I am referring to.

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I see it. You can have it.

2 A. No, it was --

3 MR. ACKERMAN: I have not asked you a question, so I do not

4 want an answer yet.

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: There is a limit to which you can

6 interfere. If a witness wants to say something, you do

7 not interfere, because if you follow our rules, actually

8 we are more concerned with relevance and probative

9 value, not necessarily -- but I will as much as I can

10 ensure that he has answered your questions.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: I understand. I am certain that he cannot

12 answer a question that I have not asked.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The witness was not answering

14 questions. He was speaking. That is not answering

15 questions.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: I will put a question to him.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: When you ask him questions, he will

18 then answer.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: I understand.

20 Do you see the photograph?

21 A. I do. I see the photograph, but I can't recognise

22 anyone, nor can I say that this was in Celebici. This

23 is not a photograph, in my view. I don't know what it

24 is. If anyone can recognise anyone from this.

25 Q. Okay. I am not asking you to recognise any person. I

1 am asking you if you recognise it as Hangar 6 at

2 Celebici. Do you or do you not?

3 A. I cannot recognise it on the basis of this photograph.

4 Q. All right. Do you recognise it as representative of

5 the way prisoners were seated in Celebici?

6 A. Roughly like this, but we all had to bow our heads right

7 down to our niece. We had to hold our heads against

8 our knees. On one occasion when TV photographers came

9 and they ordered us to raise our heads so that they can

10 take a shot of us, that was on one occasion when TV

11 reporters came. I don't know who they were, but they

12 were brought in by the command or I don't know whom, and

13 TV reporters came and we were all told to raise our

14 heads so that they could shoot all of us -- I mean film

15 us all. After that they would never let us raise our

16 heads. Only we could peep out the side from time to

17 time. It depended on the situation.

18 Q. What would happen to you if you raised your head when

19 there was a guard in the room and saw you doing it?

20 Would you be punished?

21 A. We would be exposed to all kind of sufferings and

22 beatings and punishments and so on.

23 Q. So at all times you would keep your head down where you

24 were just looking at the floor; correct?

25 A. Correct.

1 Q. If you raised your head where a guard saw you do it, you

2 would be severely punished; correct?

3 A. Yes, something like that.

4 Q. I wonder if we could find to put back on the ELMO the

5 drawing that was introduced yesterday by the Prosecutor

6 that he made of Hangar Number 6. I cannot recall the

7 Exhibit Number, but it is a very recent exhibit. Yes.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The sketch.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Do you see that drawing?

10 A. I do.

11 Q. On there point to the place that you claim that you were

12 seated.

13 A. (Pointing). I am not claiming. I know. I was

14 sitting here.

15 Q. Yesterday you described an incident involving sexual

16 matters, an incident involving fellatio. Do you

17 remember that?

18 A. Yes, it happened here.

19 Q. It happened just inside the front door?

20 A. Yes, here (pointing).

21 Q. Was there more than one guard there at the time that

22 happened?

23 A. I saw one, but right next to the door and at the door

24 itself I couldn't see (pointing), but the people from

25 the other side could see. They would peep out or lift

1 their head a little bit. I saw only one guard inside

2 and the two of them.

3 Q. Was it day-time or night-time when this happened?

4 A. Day-time.

5 Q. So that if you had raised your head to look at what was

6 happening, a guard could easily have seen you do that;

7 correct?

8 A. Let me explain. As far as I can see, you cannot

9 understand the situation fully. Why can't we look this

10 way or that with our eyes while keeping our heads down?

11 It is possible to see that way. You are probably

12 trying to understand, but you cannot understand how with

13 your head bowed in some troubles in a terrible situation

14 it is sufficient to cast a glance sideways and to see

15 something. One's senses become sharpened. With one

16 glance in a second one might see more than watching for

17 two hours in normal conditions.

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Now let me help here, especially on

19 the fellatio issue. How were you able to see the

20 fellatio scene when you had your head bowed?

21 A. The head bowed and look like this (gesturing). If you

22 can imagine that I am sitting there and they are inside,

23 about two metres inside the building, and you can see

24 it, and I actually am saying that I saw it.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: But it is true -- are you finished, your

1 Honour?

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: It is true, is it not, that there was a whole

4 line of people sitting to your right. You were not

5 sitting there all by yourself along that wall. There

6 was a whole line of people next to you like the people

7 here next to me; correct?

8 A. That is correct, sir, but it was not in the line. It

9 was inside maybe 2 metres, so that it was at an angle,

10 sir. It was at an angle, so you could see it. It

11 wasn't right at the door. It was at an angle, so you

12 could see it.

13 Q. All right. Tell me again what day you believe it was

14 that you arrived at Celebici?

15 A. Around June 1st. Whether it was 31st ... around June

16 1st, a day before or a day after. I'm not sure. It

17 could have been 31st May as well. The 31st. We had

18 lost our sense of orientation.

19 Q. And can you tell me --

20 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute. I want a little clarification

21 from the witness.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, your Honour -- thanks.

23 JUDGE JAN: In the plan which he has drawn he has shown a

24 ditch inside Hangar Number 6. I have the photograph,

25 I think photograph 30, which is the inside of the hangar

1 and I do not see any ditch in it.

2 MR. OSTBERG: We will have a look, your Honour.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What he describes as a ditch.

4 JUDGE JAN: I do not see any ditch. I think photograph 30

5 is inside of the hangar.

6 MR. OSTBERG: You used the term "ditch". When he has been

7 speaking and I have heard other interpretations saying

8 "gutter".

9 JUDGE JAN: There is another one, which is the original

10 one. He has described it as a "canal" in his own

11 language which he has drawn. He describes it as a

12 "canal".

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Are there any such features in the

14 hangar?

15 JUDGE JAN: I do not find it in the photograph, photograph

16 number 30.

17 MR. OSTBERG: 30. But, your Honour, in photograph 30 you

18 have a lot of barrels standing along the wall, so you

19 cannot --

20 JUDGE JAN: If there is a ditch there, the barrels would be

21 down below. They are all on the same surface.

22 MR. OSTBERG: I think "ditch" is the wrong word. I think

23 you can ask a question to the witness and find out.

24 JUDGE JAN: That is what I wanted to find out.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Could we have the photograph put on the ELMO,

1 your Honour?

2 JUDGE JAN: In the photograph you have described a ditch

3 inside Hangar Number 6. What sort of a ditch was it,

4 because I have a photograph of this hangar, and it does

5 not show any ditch at all? There is a row in which you

6 were sitting also. The ditch is obviously in front of

7 you?

8 A. It was in front of me, maybe 1, 1.5 metres. It was

9 concrete. On top of it there were metal bars and in

10 between there were cracks. So things would fall

11 between these cracks. So it was all in concrete and it

12 was slanted from this end (pointing), from my left-hand

13 side towards my right-hand side, as I was sitting, and

14 so the water drained from it, and this ditch was maybe

15 30 cms wide covered with a metal grate, the same

16 distance between the bars. It was deepest at the end

17 where I was sitting, and then it was shallower at the

18 far end, and it was going down on the slant. So the

19 water would pass through there or sometimes -- pardon my

20 expression -- I had to pee there, so the urine went down

21 in that direction.

22 JUDGE JAN: Some of the witnesses have also drawn plans of

23 Hangar Number 6 and they have been placed in the record

24 and in those plans I do not find a ditch.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

1 A. Perhaps they did not remember well, but this is exactly

2 how it was, because I remember when it rained or when it

3 was cold and Zenga would hose it the water would start

4 coming from the side where I was and it was running down

5 to this canal. So first it would start coming down

6 there and he often, when it would be cold or sometimes

7 when it would be very hot, he would then hose the roof

8 and so the water would come in and come to this canal

9 and then it would come out, even though oftentimes it

10 would be plugged up. Two or three times we had to

11 clean it out, this canal. We had to unstop it, because

12 it was plugged up. So that is how it was.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually this is a sketch when you

14 were in detention. It represents your sketch when you

15 were in detention there?

16 A. I was detained in that hangar for 92, 93 days.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It also depends on when these

18 photographs were taken. There might have been

19 structural changes.

20 A. This canal existed for sure and I know that it was -- it

21 would get plugged. That is how it was.

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think, Mr. Ackerman, you are free to

23 continue.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: In front of you are some photographs. The

25 bottom photograph on that page, photograph number 30,

1 can you see the canal you have described in that

2 photograph?

3 A. I cannot see. Oh, number 30. Perhaps here all the

4 way in the corner. Far left in the corner, maybe that

5 is the canal, even though it is not very well visible,

6 but I think it could be that canal. As I say, you

7 can't see it very well, but here in the corner could be

8 that canal. It ran the full length of the hangar, but

9 here you can only see a small section of it.

10 Q. Do you see windows?

11 A. During my stay I claim these windows did not exist.

12 Q. Look to the left side of the photo. There seem to be a

13 complete line of windows, are there not, on the left

14 side. You are saying those did not exist at the top on

15 the left?

16 MR. OSTBERG: To facilitate the understanding, your Honour,

17 I should inform you that these photos were taken in

18 1996.

19 JUDGE JAN: Four years later.

20 MR. OSTBERG: The things we are talking about were 1992.

21 We have no idea what changes were made.

22 JUDGE JAN: That is why I was referring to the plans drawn

23 by the witnesses.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, your Honour, please.

25 JUDGE JAN: That is why I was referring to the plans drawn

1 by the other witnesses. There is no date shown. That

2 is what I wanted to find out, nothing more than that.

3 MR. OSTBERG: We are trying to solve the question.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Is it your contention that none of the

5 windows shown in photograph 30 existed at the time you

6 were there.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the witness, please.

8 A. I apologise. The photograph number 3 or 30? Which one

9 did you say?

10 MR. ACKERMAN: The one you are looking at right there, 30.

11 Is it your contention that none of those windows existed

12 when you were there?

13 A. Believe me, I don't recall. These windows were

14 certainly not like that. That much light, that makes

15 no sense.

16 Q. What about the windows on the left across the top? Were

17 they there when you were there?

18 A. I don't recall if they were. I probably would have

19 noticed had there been that much light. I probably

20 would have noticed. I would have taken note of that,

21 if there were as much light as is represented in this

22 photograph.

23 Q. Now I would like you to look at the newspaper photograph

24 that I showed you a bit earlier. It is there in front

25 of you on your right. If that is Hangar 6, you see the

1 same windows there along the top of that wall that you

2 see in the photograph, do you not?

3 A. I cannot say that this is the photograph from that

4 place, because I cannot recognise anyone there.

5 I cannot recognise it as a photograph. It could be a

6 copy or something.

7 Q. Compare it with photograph number 30. See if it

8 doesn't look like the same building.

9 A. It looks to me that in these photographs there is

10 something white, some horizontal ... I don't know what

11 they are. They are ... In this photograph, number 30,

12 I see that this has been painted and looks neat. These

13 windows were not there for sure. Had there been this

14 much light, I would have known. It is certain that

15 there was not this much light.

16 Q. Now you are talking about the windows along the left

17 side?

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think we will have to have a break

19 for 30 minutes.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: When we come back, we will know how to

22 tackle this issue.

23 (3.45 pm)

24 (Short break)

25 (4.15 pm)

1 (Witness returns to court)

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Remind him he is on his oath.

3 THE REGISTRAR: I am reminding you, sir, that you are still

4 on your oath?

5 A. I understand. Thank you.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, I would like to have photograph

7 number 30 returned to the ELMO, please. Mr. Kuljanin,

8 I want to again direct your attention to that same

9 photograph, number 30. The windows that appear on the

10 right-hand side of that photograph up in the wall, those

11 are the windows that you told us a moment ago were not

12 there when you were there; correct?

13 A. The way they look in this photograph and the way I see

14 it in this photograph, that's not how they were. There

15 was tin there and as far as I can see in these

16 photographs there are openings there or there is even

17 glass there. There is either an opening or it has

18 glass on it. When I was there, down there, it was all

19 tin. Here I see a lot of light, and the whole window

20 seems open. When I was there that part you could never

21 open in this way, and I can't see from here whether

22 there is glass here or there's nothing.

23 Q. So when you were there even during the day it was pretty

24 dark inside the hangar?

25 A. Yes, it was pretty dark. It wasn't dark. It was not

1 dark. It was -- you could see.

2 Q. There were no windows through which significant light

3 was coming, however?

4 A. I don't remember. As I recall, there were no windows

5 through which any major light, major amount of light

6 could pass through.

7 Q. Now I would like you to look at the diagram that is in

8 front of you. Look in front of you at the model, over

9 here. See where I am pointing, the model (pointing)?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Look at the model and look at Hangar 6. On the back of

12 Hangar 6 you will see what appears to be four windows.

13 Do you see what I am talking about (pointing)?

14 A. Yes, I see on this model that windows have been

15 indicated. There are four of them from the side

16 opposite to where the entrance was.

17 Q. So I understand from your testimony just now that those

18 windows did not exist at the time you were there;

19 correct?

20 A. Please, I have given this explanation about five

21 times. The windows as they appear in this photograph

22 were not there. You can see that there are openings

23 there either with the glass or without glass. However,

24 there were openings on this side on which these windows

25 are indicated there, and instead of the glass or the

1 empty openings there was tin. So when it was closed it

2 could be opened a little bit at an angle, a little bit,

3 but you could not see through the window fully.

4 Q. So when it was closed, you could not see through it at

5 all; correct?

6 A. Correct. If it was completely closed you could not see

7 through it at all.

8 Q. Now could I ask -- sorry, Mr. Usher, you have cleared

9 back over there. Could I ask that the roof of Hangar 6

10 on the model be removed? I think it is E on the

11 model. Yes. Would you stand up so you can see inside,

12 please. You see no canal in there, do you?

13 A. I do not see any canal there. I don't think it has

14 been indicated there.

15 Q. So again it's not accurate based upon your recollection

16 of what Celebici looked like; correct?

17 A. The canal did exist and I claim that it did exist

18 because it would be plugged up a number of times, and it

19 would be -- our urine would be there and it stank. So

20 we cleaned it several times, as often as we were allowed

21 to. As I say, the canal was 30 cms long.

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It was not accurate, this model; that

23 is what he asked, in view of what you knew?

24 A. I don't see the canal there, and the canal did exist, so

25 it's not the same.

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you. That is all I was trying to find

2 out.

3 MR. OSTBERG: Again, if I can assist the Trial Chamber, this

4 model was prepared in 1996.

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think we appreciate that.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, your Honours, it may well then be

7 appropriate that this model then be removed from the

8 court room, since it is not representative of 1992,

9 which is the time we are talking about here. If it is

10 a 1996 model and everybody is going to say it is

11 inaccurate, then I think we should get it out of here

12 and get one in here that represents what happened in

13 1992, because we are not talking about Celebici in 1996.

14 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, along that vein, I have prepared a

15 written motion to strike Prosecutor's exhibits number 1

16 and 2. I have an original to be filed with the Trial

17 Chamber and a copy for the Prosecutor. I was unable to

18 make nine copies on the break. It is based on

19 Mr. Ostberg's statement that these models are based on

20 1996 and we don't know whether it fully, fairly and

21 accurately depicts what it purports to depict, that is

22 the camp in 1992. In fact, we have testimony here

23 today from a prosecution witness that it doesn't fully,

24 fairly and accurately depict what it purports to

25 depict. Therefore, your Honours, it is flat not

1 relevant.

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I appreciate your argument. It

3 depends on whether it represents what they are making it

4 to represent. The fact that it is of a later date by

5 itself does not really mean it might not represent

6 certain things for the proposals which they are making.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: I agree, your Honour. If the prosecution

8 wants to represent for the record that it is only

9 intended to represent the camp conditions in 1996, then

10 that is another thing. If the Prosecution is

11 suggesting that this represents the way the camp looked

12 in 1992, then I think it should not be here, because it

13 is not accurate. If they want to represent that it is

14 a 1996 representation of the camp, then with that being

15 part of the record, I would have no objection.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I see your point. I think it

17 depends.

18 JUDGE JAN: Well, it gives a general layout of the plan,

19 nothing more than that, if you want to say that.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: That's even acceptable, Judge Jan. Thank

21 you.

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is almost impossible to reconstruct

23 the 1992 conditions. I do not know who could have done

24 it.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: We will have some videotapes that were made

1 in 1992 that will give the court a little bit better

2 idea of what it looked like, I am sure. Okay. May

3 I proceed?

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: All right. Thank you.

6 Mr. Kuljanin, you talked about a time that

7 journalists came to the camp; correct? Yes or no?

8 A. Yes. Yes.

9 Q. You don't know exactly what agency those journalists

10 were from, do you?

11 A. I don't know exactly.

12 Q. Can you tell us as nearly as you can the date upon which

13 the journalists came to the camp?

14 A. I cannot give the exact date when they came.

15 Q. What is your best estimate of the date that they came?

16 A. I cannot recall. I know that they had cameras with

17 them and that they were shooting. Delic was there with

18 them and they spoke something. I did not understand the

19 language and what they were talking about, but they were

20 shooting some footage, and Delic would put his foot on

21 someone's chest. They made loud comments --

22 MR. MORAN: Objection, your Honour. This is

23 non-responsive. The question was:

24 "What is your best estimate ..." --

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He is being asked to see whether he

1 can remember.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: The question is: does he know when it was.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Whether circumstances make you

4 remember a particular date.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Was it closer to the time you got there or

6 closer to the time you left there?

7 A. I think it was somewhere in the middle, maybe around the

8 middle somewhere. It wasn't close to the end and it

9 was not close to the beginning, so somewhere in the

10 middle, maybe early August or late July, somewhere

11 around there.

12 Q. Was it before or after the Red Cross came?

13 A. I cannot recall.

14 Q. Was the front gate simply left open during the day so

15 that journalists could come any time they wanted to?

16 A. They didn't stay long. They came that day, those

17 journalists. I think they must have come from a

18 foreign country. I couldn't understand the language,

19 and the local journalists with cameras would come --

20 they would come too but I don't know when. I don't

21 know when that was.

22 Q. So journalists were coming to the camp not

23 infrequently. Occasionally journalists would come to

24 the camp; correct?

25 A. I said twice. You say frequently. If twice is

1 frequently, I don't know. I said twice. Once they

2 were foreigners. I couldn't understand the language

3 they spoke and the second time I think they must have

4 been from the local Konjic television station. A man

5 came with a camera. He shot all of us and at that

6 moment he said: "I have no more tape", and he left. So

7 I don't think that is often.

8 Q. So those pictures that were taken by the journalists on

9 the two occasions that they came there should show the

10 prisoners in an emaciated condition, near starvation

11 with bruises all over their bodies from the starvation

12 and the beatings, should they not?

13 A. I cannot remember exactly what we looked like at that

14 minute, because I have no orientation to go by. Just

15 before the International Red Cross came and after they

16 left they reduced the beatings, and they always said:

17 "Don't beat people in the face." I heard Delic say

18 that and Zenga too. "Don't beat them in the face, on

19 the head." So we could conclude from that that

20 something was about to happen.

21 After some time the International Red Cross

22 came. After their first visit -- they stayed a whole

23 day and they left. Three minutes after they left, they

24 barged in. They beat us up, but again not our heads.

25 The next day the International Red Cross came back.

1 They were a little surprised, I think. People showed

2 their bruises on their body, not on their head. They

3 didn't hit anyone on the head. So this means that this

4 was intentional. So, therefore, on these shots this

5 will probably not be seen.

6 Q. You talked about several people who -- in fact, you made

7 a list of people who you claim died at Celebici and you

8 went through that list. You didn't conclude in the

9 course of any of that testimony that any of those

10 persons died of starvation, from lack of food, did you?

11 A. Together, hunger and the torture, all kinds of torture

12 we were exposed to, psychological and physical

13 mistreatment, coupled with the shortage of food, and the

14 lack of medicines and treatment, together with the

15 beatings up -- all these things together contributed to

16 people dying or being killed, and so on. I think when

17 you take all that together people did die and they

18 suffered terribly. It is possible that if they had had

19 more food -- I don't know. I can't guarantee that they

20 would survive, but maybe they would have had a chance, a

21 greater chance, or if they hadn't been beaten more

22 people would have survived.

23 Q. Of course, if there had not been a war, more people

24 would have survived; correct? Yes? (Pause.) Many

25 people were killed in the war one way or another, were

1 they not, and died in the war?

2 A. Yes, of course. Of course. The answer is

3 self-evident. If there had not been any war, people

4 would not get killed. Of course, people normally get

5 killed in a war.

6 Q. Can you tell us the first day that you recall seeing

7 Mr. Landzo, Zenga, at Celebici?

8 A. I don't remember the exact date, but maybe after some

9 ten days or so, ten days or so after my arrival, that

10 I noticed it. He may have been there, but I didn't

11 notice him.

12 Q. All right. What is the last day that you remember

13 seeing Esad Landzo, Zenga, at Celebici?

14 A. I don't remember when he left, but I know that he left

15 to -- the military police, to join the military police,

16 and I know that because I saw him leaving, and when he

17 was promoted to the military police he would come

18 occasionally. It was almost impossible to get under

19 the fence. He would take off his tee-shirt and he

20 would be wearing only trousers. He would creep under

21 the wire fence and come to the hangar to ask money from

22 Dusko Bendjo, for instance. Then he would disappear

23 again, but I don't remember when that was. Maybe -- he

24 left Celebici, I think, before I was transferred to

25 Musala perhaps, maybe some 20 days before.

1 Q. He was not there when the Red Cross came, was he?

2 A. I cannot recall.

3 Q. He was not there -- certainly not there the full time

4 that you were there?

5 A. You mean until 31st August, for as long as I was there?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. He wasn't there all the time. I don't know when he

8 left, on what date but he wasn't there throughout my

9 stay there.

10 Q. So some of the torture activity at least you have

11 described to this court he simply could not have been

12 involved in because he was not there; correct?

13 A. I don't know what period you are referring to.

14 Q. The whole period. You described almost daily beatings

15 through the whole 95 days or so that you were there.

16 For several of those days at least Mr. Landzo could not

17 have been involved, because he was not there. That is

18 all I am asking. I think it is simple.

19 A. It is a very complicated question, because he would come

20 occasionally in a uniform and they were saying that

21 Landzo had joined the police. So he would show off a

22 little being a policeman. So when he was transferred,

23 or rather promoted, to the police, he would come and

24 visit. He would go somewhere there, I don't know

25 where, whether it was within the compound or outside,

1 but he would pass by, and he would go to the swimming

2 pool to bathe. We would see him going along the

3 railway line and then coming back again.

4 Occasionally he would enter the hangar and -- not

5 as much as before while he was there permanently -- he

6 didn't beat people as much and torture them as much --

7 but he would come by, beat a couple of people and then

8 go off again. This would happen occasionally.

9 Q. So he kind of stopped by on his way to the swimming pool

10 just to engage in a couple of beatings just for fun; is

11 that what you are saying?

12 A. Yes, yes, that's exactly what I am saying.

13 Q. This is the same person you just told us a few moments

14 ago that when it got real hot inside the building he

15 would spray water inside the building so it would be

16 cooler for the prisoners. Is that the same person you

17 are talking about?

18 A. We are talking about the same person. Not to cool it

19 off. They wouldn't give us water to swallow. People

20 were almost fainting from thirst. He was spraying the

21 water, whereas we were dry. They would not let us have

22 a drop of water. He would come in and say: "Are you

23 thirsty, you Cetniks?" He would curse our mothers. He

24 would laugh and beat somebody. Then he would go out

25 again. This would go on sometimes for two or three

1 hours. He would not give us a drop of water while

2 doing that. That is why he was doing that and not to

3 cool off the building. He did it also when it was too

4 cool.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: I did not ask you a question, did I?

6 A. I have not completed my answer.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think you have.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: I think you have.

9 A. I think I haven't.

10 Q. Now you were closed up in this Building Number 6. You

11 were forced to sit there with your head down between

12 your knees. If you raised your head, you were beaten

13 unmercifully, and yet you would see Landzo walking along

14 the railway tracks, going to the swimming pool, climbing

15 in under the fence, and so I guess what you have

16 described as your total confinement in that building

17 with your head between your legs is untrue. You had a

18 great deal of freedom to walk around outside and see

19 what was going on out there. Is that the case?

20 A. I claim with full responsibility that that is not

21 correct, the way you have put it. If you allow me, I

22 can tell you what it was like in five or six

23 sentences. The discipline improved a little when

24 Landzo left and after the visit of the International Red

25 Cross. They would let us go to the toilet, for

1 instance. They would take people to do labour. Some

2 people were digging something. Some were loading and

3 unloading. Some were cleaning. At those times all of

4 us could see something. We weren't blindfolded so we

5 would go here and there. Someone would see this,

6 someone else something else. So when you are told to

7 go and dig, of course you can cast a glance left and

8 right. There were guards who were correct, who would

9 say: "Sit down and have a smoke, have a cigarette."

10 There were such cases too.

11 For instance, once when I was loading those

12 trucks, the man offered us cigarettes and he said to us:

13 "Boys, take a break and have a cigarette." Then we

14 exchanged a few words. There were such moments maybe

15 in Number 6 too, but these were very rare occasions.

16 I can't say this happened on 21st or 22nd at 3 o'clock

17 or at 10 o'clock. There were such cases.

18 Delic too would come. He would hit a man. The

19 man fell. He would lift him up, give him a cigarette

20 and then that man would have to smoke. There were such

21 cases and, of course, you saw these things. They

22 didn't blindfold us so that we couldn't see anything.

23 There were cases when a guard who came from Bijela -- I

24 don't remember his name; I don't know his name -- he

25 would piggy-back -- ride piggy-back and sometimes we

1 could see this.

2 So we had to go out sometimes to eat. We were

3 given one or two spoonfuls of something, sometimes

4 three, sometimes four. As you take a spoon to your

5 mouth, of course you will see what's happening around

6 up. So there were such situations. Or when you go to

7 the toilet, until you reach the toilet, you see

8 things. People were taken for interrogation to the

9 command building. Some people once, other people

10 several times, and they saw things. Then they had to

11 dig that bunker near Zenga. I didn't go, and, of

12 course, they couldn't spend all day looking at the

13 ground. Those people had to turn their heads around

14 and see things. There were such moments.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. You explained

16 how relaxed you were later.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: How many times were you taken to the

18 infirmary in Building 22?

19 A. I didn't go to the infirmary or Number 22 at all.

20 I asked for help. I asked for it ten times. Nobody

21 reacted and then I said: "If I have to die, let me die."

22 Q. How many times did you go to the infirmary in Building

23 22?

24 A. Not once.

25 Q. Is it your testimony then that doctors came from there

1 to Building 6 to examine you?

2 A. Yes. The examination consisted of a question: "What's

3 wrong with you? What's wrong with that one?" He had

4 about ten or fifteen minutes. At one point there were

5 255 of us. As soon as a man answered and said what was

6 wrong, he just shrugged his shoulders and went on to the

7 next man. He would say: "I cannot help you." He would

8 tour the building and that was it.

9 But I am not saying that some people didn't go to

10 the infirmary, especially before the International Red

11 Cross came, so that they wouldn't see so much. They

12 tried to patch up the injuries, to cover up the

13 situation. Prior to the arrival of the International

14 Red Cross they would take people there.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: This is your witness. It is most

16 unusual for counsel to sit down when his witness is

17 testifying.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, if the witness wants to simply

19 make speeches, then I do not want to get in his way.

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Then you will provoke such speeches

21 and they will be made.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: I cannot imagine that asking him if a doctor

23 came to see him in Hangar 6 would provoke a speech like

24 that.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He is telling us what happened when

1 the doctor came.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: But I never asked him that question. I just

3 asked him if a doctor came. What he did was launch

4 into another one of his speeches. I think he has come

5 here to make speeches. Maybe it would be appropriate

6 to allow him to make speeches. If the court allows, I

7 will go ahead and finish.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is a witness for the prosecution.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you. I think I have no further

10 questions to ask you, Mr. Kuljanin. Thank you. Oh, I

11 do have one more. What was the name of the doctor that

12 came to the hangar?

13 A. I can't give you have a direct answer. It wasn't one

14 doctor. There were two doctors, Relja Mrkajic and

15 Petko Grubac.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The doctor that came to examine you.

17 That is all he wants.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Who was the doctor that you talked to?

19 A. I asked assistance from Relja Mrkajic. He shrugged his

20 shoulders and said: "There's nothing I can do for you."

21 Q. Relja Mrkajic?

22 A. Relja Mrkajic.

23 Q. That is a doctor?

24 A. Yes. He is a specialist.

25 Q. Okay. That is all I have. Thank you.

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I suppose that is the end of the

2 defence cross-examination.

3 Any re-examination on the part of the

4 prosecution?

5 MR. OSTBERG: Yes, thank you, your Honour. Two issues

6 only.

7 Re-examination by MR. OSTBERG.

8 MR. OSTBERG: I will ask some questions that have come

9 forward through the cross-examination. I will not ask

10 you a "yes" or "no" question, but I will ask you to wait

11 to answer it until I have finished my question.

12 When I examined you and asked you what kind of

13 methods Esad Landzo used when he mistreated you, you

14 mentioned several things, but you never mentioned a

15 knife. In cross-examination you said that you have

16 been hit by him by a knife. Will you expand on that

17 event, please? Will you tell us more about what

18 happened then?

19 A. I can in detail, because I remember it well. On that

20 occasion Zenga had a semi-automatic rifle with a knife

21 attached. He came up to me and asked me: "How are

22 you?" I said -- what else could I say but: "Okay." At

23 that moment he suddenly hit me with this knife here

24 (indicating), but I managed to move away, so he tore my

25 shirt only. A second time he pricked me in the

1 forehead. So I immediately vomited something green --

2 I apologise -- and then I felt -- I couldn't see

3 properly for a moment. Then he became really mad and

4 then he pierced between people's heads -- he pierced the

5 walls with this bayonet. Why he asked me how I was and

6 all that I don't know. There was absolutely no

7 reason. He simply came up to me. It occurred to him

8 to ask this question and that's what happened.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: This is now sufficient for the

10 question.

11 MR. OSTBERG: I am quite satisfied with this account of what

12 happened with the knife.

13 I have one other issue. When learned counsel for

14 Mucic examined you and tried to force you to answer

15 "yes" or "no", you entered a discussion --

16 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I am bound to say that I do not

17 care for the characterisation "force". I wonder whether

18 my learned friend would like to reconsider that word and

19 withdraw it.

20 MR. OSTBERG: Tried to make him answer every question "yes"

21 or "no". You entered a discussion on Mucic's position

22 in the camp. Before counsel finished his questioning

23 you said that you had other facts to found your answer

24 on than your visits -- his visits to the Hangar 6. I

25 will ask: what other facts would you found your answer

1 on Mucic's position on?

2 A. The facts are that all women who thought they were

3 helping their husband or brothers went to Pavo Mucic --

4 MR. GREAVES: I would just like to stop the witness, please,

5 so I can address you on a matter of law, please.

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: This is completely irrelevant. He

7 could not be giving any opinion of this nature. It is

8 an opinion.

9 MR. OSTBERG: I asked the question on what facts he based

10 it. The facts I got so far we cannot accept, of

11 course.

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Which are those facts? The facts

13 outside?

14 MR. OSTBERG: The facts outside the visits of Mucic to the

15 hangar. That was my question. On which facts he based

16 his statement that Mucic was the camp commander. That

17 is what I was looking for.

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Do you not think this is irrelevant in

19 terms of what he wants to say because he was not in a

20 position to see those things?

21 MR. OSTBERG: As he just said. I asked him if he had any

22 facts which he could bring to the court on which he

23 based this statement. If he has not got any, I have no

24 further questions, of course.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He has none, because these are all

1 speculations.

2 MR. OSTBERG: What we heard so far was speculation. Thank

3 you. Then we have no further questions.

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: This is all you have for the witness?

5 MR. OSTBERG: That is all I have for the witness. Thank

6 you.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much for your efforts

8 and your patience I would say. Thank you very much for

9 your contribution. So you are discharged.

10 A. Thank you, your Honours. I apologise if sometimes

11 I was a little nervous. I hope you will have

12 understanding for my position then and today too, and

13 this is the first time for me to address a court of

14 law. I was also reminded of the camp and this is very

15 painful for me. So I really do apologise if I made any

16 mistakes.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much.

18 A. Thank you too.

19 (Witness withdrew)

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Who is your next witness?

21 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, our next witness was supposed to

22 be protected from media and public, but he decided not

23 to be protected any more. So I call Mr. Mladen Kuljanin

24 as our next witness.

25 JUDGE JAN: How many Kuljanins are there in this case?

1 MR. TURONE: Many, your Honour.

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Swear him. Swear the witness.

3 MR. MLADEN KULJANIN (sworn)

4 Examined by MR. TURONE

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can take your seat. Sit down.

6 A. (In interpretation): thank you.

7 MR. TURONE: May I proceed, your Honour?

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can proceed.

9 MR. TURONE: Thank you. Sir, would you please state your

10 full name?

11 A. Mladen Kuljanin, born in Konjic 15th June 1971.

12 I lived in the village of Bradina.

13 Q. What is your ethnic group?

14 A. Serbian.

15 Q. Were you born in Bradina?

16 A. No, in Konjic.

17 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, what education did you receive? I mean,

18 what kind of schools did you attend for many years?

19 A. 11 years.

20 Q. Which kind of schools?

21 A. Restaurant school.

22 Q. What was your profession in 1992?

23 A. Baker.

24 Q. Is Bradina where you lived at the beginning of May 1992?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Sir, was there a time when Bradina was affected by the

2 armed conflict in 1992?

3 A. Yes. On 25th May 1992.

4 Q. Was there a time on which you were arrested?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When was that?

7 A. 27th May 1992.

8 Q. Was that -- approximately at what time that day?

9 A. Around 11 o'clock in the morning.

10 Q. Okay. Can you briefly explain the circumstances of

11 your arrest?

12 A. On 27th May 1992 I was at home with my father, mother

13 and my sister. We came out around 11.30, my father, my

14 sister and my mother. We stepped outside and across

15 our house, in front of the restaurant of Mica Kuljanin

16 there were already a number of detained persons and we

17 joined them. When I arrived there there were soldiers

18 of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and soldiers of the

19 HVO who were present there.

20 Q. You mean you were arrested by these persons?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Were there insignia on their uniforms?

23 A. Yes. There were lilies of the army of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina and there was the chequerboard.

25 Q. Was that -- you said in front of a restaurant?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Which restaurant was that?

3 A. It was the restaurant called Mico in Bradina.

4 Q. Sir, how many soldiers were there?

5 A. When I arrived in front of the cafe there were about 60

6 soldiers. I cannot recollect the exact number.

7 Q. Do you know who were the commanders of these soldiers?

8 A. I did not recognise -- I did not know who the commander

9 was there in front of the cafe.

10 Q. Did you know personally some of these people, some of

11 these soldiers?

12 MR. GREAVES: Well, your Honour, he has just answered the

13 question:

14 "I did not recognise anybody."

15 That I think is the answer: "I did not know

16 anybody."

17 MR. TURONE: He was answering about the commanders. I was

18 asking about any one of these 60 soldiers.

19 MR. GREAVES: He said:

20 "Did you personally know some of these people?"

21 It seems to me that refers to the question that

22 has already been asked.

23 MR. TURONE: My previous question was about the

24 commanders. Now my question is about the possibility

25 he might have known anybody among the general number of

1 the soldiers.

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Frankly I do not know what is a

3 commander and who were the soldiers. If you were

4 referring to the command structure, who were the

5 commanders, if he did not know that, that is quite

6 different from ordinary soldiers.

7 MR. TURONE: Exactly. My next question was whether he

8 knows any of the soldiers.

9 MR. GREAVES: With --

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: When you use the word "commander", it

11 is --

12 MR. GREAVES: With respect, I invite your Honour to say

13 there is no relevance in the question of who the

14 soldiers were.

15 JUDGE JAN: How is it important who were the soldiers? He

16 was arrested.

17 MR. TURONE: All right. Mr. Kuljanin, were you told why you

18 were being arrested?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you have any weapon at the time of your arrest?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Were you a member of any armed group?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you in any way take part in the defence of the

25 village of Bradina?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Can you approximately say, if you know, how many persons

3 in your village were armed at the outbreak of the

4 conflict?

5 A. I cannot say. In fact, I do not know.

6 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Kuljanin, what happened to you after you

7 were arrested?

8 A. When I was arrested in front of the restaurant Mico and

9 I was -- and members of the HVO and the army of

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina were passing around a photograph, but

11 none of us was able to recognise this photograph, and so

12 at the very start there we were being beaten. After

13 about one hour in front of the Mico restaurant where we

14 were lined up we were taken to the centre of Bradina.

15 We walked on foot about 2 kms. When I arrived in the

16 centre of Bradina, we were made to lean against a

17 wall. It was about 10 metres long. We stood there

18 about an hour and a half with our hands up. For one

19 hour we were being beaten there.

20 Q. How many of you?

21 A. At that time we were 60-70.

22 Q. By whom were you beaten?

23 A. Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and members of the HVO.

24 Q. With what were you beaten?

25 A. Rifle butts. They kicked us. With sticks, hands and

1 other objects, whatever they had at hand.

2 Q. What happened then?

3 A. After that we were loaded into a vehicle of Fap make.

4 It had a canopy. There were 60 of us and one by one we

5 jumped onto this vehicle. As we were jumping in

6 everybody was being beaten. As I was coming in

7 somebody -- one of the soldiers hit me and I fell down

8 to the road. I fell unconscious. When I tried --

9 when I came to and tried a second time he hit me again,

10 but I was able to climb onto this vehicle.

11 Q. Yes. What happened then?

12 A. When all 60 of us were on the vehicle, they took us to

13 the Celebici camp and we arrived there around

14 1 o'clock. There we were -- there were other people

15 who were waiting for us in the camouflage uniforms.

16 When the vehicle came to the gate of the Celebici camp

17 we had to jump off and line up against a wall again.

18 We were against this wall for about five hours,

19 somewhere between 1.00 and 7.00. As we were lined up

20 against the wall they ordered us to strip to the waist

21 and to take off our socks. Then they ordered -- there

22 were two or three groups that were taking shifts in

23 beating us.

24 Q. Where exactly inside the camp did this act happen?

25 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, that is a leading question. The

1 witness has not yet said where exactly, whether it was

2 inside or outside the camp.

3 MR. TURONE: He said he arrived at Celebici.

4 MR. GREAVES: He said: "We came to the gate." It does not

5 say whether he was inside or outside the camp. Counsel

6 must not lead his witness.

7 MR. TURONE: All right. Could you say exactly where did

8 this beating happen?

9 A. Inside the Celebici camp. We entered the Celebici

10 camp. We passed the gate and we entered inside.

11 Q. Yes. In which point of the camp inside the camp did

12 that happen?

13 A. Against the wall.

14 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, you see a model in front of you. Can you

15 recognise this model?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What is that?

18 A. It represents the Celebici camp.

19 Q. If I may ask the usher to provide something to point to

20 the witness.

21 So could you please stand up and point out the

22 position of this wall inside the camp?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Please do it.

25 A. (Pointing).

1 Q. For the record, the witness pointed at the wall near the

2 entrance of the camp. Maybe you say that already.

3 How long did you remain approximately at that wall? How

4 long did this beating last?

5 A. From 1.00 in the afternoon until about 7.00 at night.

6 Q. Did the people hitting you say anything during the

7 beating?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you remember something you heard?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you tell us?

12 A. They were saying: "Auschwitz. This is Islam. Jamahera!

13 Long live Islam! Allah! Allah is the greatest!"

14 Q. How were you personally beaten? With what?

15 A. I was kicked. Then I was beaten with a rifle butt and

16 with different objects. There were chains and there

17 were sticks, and there were some cables for

18 electricity. I don't know how thick they were.

19 Q. Can you indicate the name of any of the persons taking

20 part in this beating?

21 A. I recognised two persons at that time. There was Hazim

22 Delic and Mario Matic. Mario Matic went together with

23 me to school in Sarajevo. I recognised him. He was

24 one of the first who came over to me and hit me.

25 Q. Did you know Hazim Delic from before?

1 A. From sight.

2 Q. How did you get to know his name?

3 A. There were people there who worked together with him in

4 the Sip Prenj company and they recognised him.

5 Q. Can you describe the physical consequences you suffered

6 from this particular beating at the wall?

7 A. On site Petko Gligorevic was killed and Gojko Miljenic

8 died from the injuries.

9 Q. I am sorry, Mr. Kuljanin. My question is about the

10 physical consequences that you suffered personally from

11 this particular beating, you suffered?

12 A. My consequences? After that beating I could not

13 urinate. I had to squat in order to urinate.

14 I couldn't urinate standing. They beat me mostly in

15 the kidney area and then at the back, but they did not

16 choose much where they were beating. Every part of my

17 body had suffered blows.

18 Q. Did you receive any medical care after that?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did anybody inside the camp enquire about this incident?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Can you now describe the physical consequences which any

23 other person, any other prisoner suffered after this

24 particular beating at the wall?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Can you tell the court?

2 A. Yes. About 10 metres away from me was Petko Gligorevic.

3 Q. Petko?

4 A. Petko Gligorevic. He was about 10 metres away from

5 me. At one point he fell down from beating and some

6 soldiers came over and ordered two prisoners to pull him

7 up. Then he got up. When the next group came over to

8 beat us, Petko fell down again and never got up again.

9 He remained there dead.

10 Gojko Miljenic.

11 Q. What did you personally see about Miljanic Gojko?

12 A. Gojko Miljenic was beaten up but arrived alive to Hangar

13 Number 6 and the next morning he was dead.

14 I personally was with Gojko when we arrived in the

15 hangar, when we were locked up there. Blood was coming

16 out of Gojko's ears and his chest was all broken. He

17 could not talk. He just gurgled and blood was coming

18 out of his mouth and his ears and the next day when the

19 dawn came Gojko was dead from having been beaten.

20 Miroslav Vujicic.

21 Q. What did you see about him?

22 A. When they started beating us Miroslav Vujicic tried to

23 run, because I guess he would try to escape, because

24 they were beating us. A shot was fired. He fell. A

25 soldier came forward and there was -- he was a metre

1 away from him and the second shot rang out and Miroslav

2 was dead.

3 Q. Is there any other detail you personally eyewitnessed in

4 these hours of beating?

5 A. Yes. Dragan Kravar. I personally brought him to the

6 hangar in a wheelbarrow, because he could not go on his

7 own power. He could not walk from having been beaten.

8 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, what happened to you after this beating,

9 after this long beating at the wall?

10 A. Then we were moved to Hangar Number 6, where I spent 180

11 days.

12 Q. Can you describe the physical characteristics of

13 building 6?

14 A. Yes, I can.

15 Q. Please do that.

16 A. Yes. The length was maybe 12, 13 metres. I don't know

17 exactly. I could not really concentrate much in those

18 moments. The width was 5 or 6 metres. There were

19 several windows, one entrance door that we came in and

20 out from.

21 Q. Did every prisoner have a given position inside Hangar

22 6?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you say how were the prisoners distributed inside

25 Hangar 6? I mean, how were the positions organised

1 inside the hangar?

2 A. There were two rows in the middle where the prisoners

3 sat and there were two rows around.

4 Q. Did you personally maintain the same position during the

5 whole period inside Hangar 6?

6 A. No. I moved twice.

7 Q. May I ask that the witness be provided with a photograph

8 of Prosecution Exhibit number 1, page 7 and can it be

9 placed on the ELMO so that the witness might show us the

10 different positions he had inside the hangar?

11 JUDGE JAN: Did he not prepare a plan for you like the

12 other witnesses?

13 MR. TURONE: I beg your pardon.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, your Honour, please.

15 JUDGE JAN: Did he not prepare a plan for you, like the

16 other witnesses have done?

17 MR. TURONE: He did never prepare a plan. Do you recognise

18 this plan as a map of Hangar 6, Mr. Kuljanin? Can you

19 indicate the door on the hangar, pointing with a pencil

20 to the map itself? I cannot see on the ELMO this map.

21 Can you point the door?

22 A. (Pointing).

23 Q. Can you now indicate on this map your three positions --

24 the first position, first of all, you had inside

25 Number 6?

1 A. (Pointing) Here.

2 Q. Can you please mark a cross on that point and mark it

3 with a number "1" so that we might understand that this

4 is the first position?

5 A. (Marking).

6 Q. Would you please now indicate to us the second position

7 you had inside the hangar?

8 A. (Marking).

9 Q. Number 2, okay. Then the third position?

10 A. (Marking).

11 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. Was there any particular

12 reason for which you changed position twice inside

13 Hangar 6?

14 A. I don't know the reason. Some people were released,

15 that is transferred to Musala, to the sports hall.

16 Then as they were moved there we were moved.

17 Q. Was that your initiative or somebody had you moved to

18 another position?

19 A. It was not my choice.

20 Q. Can you say very approximately when did you move from

21 position 1 to position 2?

22 A. Some time in July, in July.

23 Q. You mean you moved from the first to the second position

24 in July?

25 A. Yes, yes, July, August.

1 Q. Can you say again approximately when did you move from

2 position number 2 to position number 3?

3 A. September, October, thereabouts.

4 Q. All right.

5 Your Honours, if there are no objection, I would

6 like to tender this map as a prosecution exhibit, since

7 it marks exactly the three different positions, and it

8 will be Exhibit Number 28 -- 98, I beg your pardon, if

9 it is admitted.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Have you shown it to the defence?

11 Show it to the defence.

12 MR. GREAVES: I have no objection to it.

13 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, subject to the reliability of the

14 map itself, which I think we will discuss at a later

15 point when I file my motion, I have no objection to it.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is admitted.

17 MR. TURONE: Okay. Thank you. By the way, do you

18 remember anything particular about the floor of Hangar

19 Number 6? How was the floor?

20 A. It was concrete.

21 Q. Do you remember any detail besides that or not?

22 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

23 Q. Mr. Kuljanin, how were the conditions of life in

24 Number 6, in Hangar Number 6, drinking water, food,

25 toilet, etc? Let us start with drinking water. How

1 were the drinking water supplies?

2 A. We were getting drinking water in bottles, not as much

3 as we wanted but as much as they were giving us.

4 Q. Did you receive drinking water every day?

5 A. Not every single day. Sometimes it would be every

6 third day that we would get water and food.

7 Q. What about food? How was the food supply?

8 A. It was terrible and the food was bad. I can say it was

9 below any standard and insufficient. We were receiving

10 one bread of 600, 700 grams, divided between fifteen

11 people.

12 Q. Did you receive food every day anyway?

13 A. Not every day.

14 Q. What was the period of time which you might remain --

15 might have remained without food? How long?

16 A. The longest period that we did not receive any food was

17 three days.

18 Q. What about the toilet facilities? How were the toilet

19 facilities when you were in Hangar 6?

20 A. The toilet was made by the prisoners outside. They dug

21 it up.

22 Q. Were you permitted to go outside for toilet facilities?

23 A. No. Sometimes, not always.

24 Q. How was that organised?

25 A. For a period of time it would be 20 people going out to

1 pee and we had about 20 seconds to do it, the 20 of us,

2 and the International Red Cross was present there, and

3 once, on one occasion, Hazim Delic took us out, and a

4 representative of the Red Cross was present and he

5 watched, and it was 90 seconds for 20 people.

6 Q. What about the sleeping facilities? Did you have

7 blankets and other things like that?

8 A. No. I slept on concrete for three months. For a

9 period of time we couldn't even sleep. We had to sit

10 up day and night.

11 Q. Uh-huh. Sir, approximately how many prisoners did you

12 observe being inside Hangar 6 when you first arrived in

13 the hangar?

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr. Turone, we will have to break here

15 and continue in the afternoon tomorrow.

16 MR. TURONE: All right, your Honour.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: So the Trial Chamber will rise and we

18 will reassemble at 2.30 tomorrow. 2.30. Please.

19 (5.35 pm)

20 (Hearing adjourned until 2.30 tomorrow afternoon)

21 --ooOoo--

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