1 --- Wednesday, June 3rd, 1998

2 --- Upon commencing at 10.05 a.m.

3 (The witness entered court)

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and

5 gentlemen. Can we have the appearances, please.

6 MR. NIEMANN: As Your Honours please, my name

7 is Niemann, I appear with my colleagues, Ms. McHenry,

8 Mr. Turone and Mr. Huber for the prosecution.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have appearances

10 for the Defence, please.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours, I

12 am Edina Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zenjil

13 Delalic. Mr. Delalic is also represented by Mr. Eugene

14 O'Sullivan, professor from Canada, thank you.

15 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, Your Honours, I am

16 Zeljko Olujic, Defence counsel for Mr. Mucic, along

17 with my colleague Niko Duric, attorney from Croatia. I

18 would also like to ask that my client not be present in

19 the courtroom this afternoon because there will be a

20 Catholic service in the detention unit this afternoon

21 he would like to attend, so he asks for my permission

22 to be excused today.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is not granted.

24 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours, my

25 name is Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, Defence

1 counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic. Thank you.

2 MS. McMURREY: Good morning, Your Honours, I

3 am Cynthia McMurrey, along with my colleague, Ms. Nancy

4 Boler. We represent Esad Landzo.

5 --- Reporter not receiving translation.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we have some

7 complaints.

8 ---Pause in proceedings.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, you may

10 proceed with your witness.

11 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

12 are still under oath.

13 THE WITNESS: I have understood.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: May I? Thank you.

15 WITNESS: ASIM DZAMBASOVIC.

16 Examined by Ms. Residovic

17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Dzambasovic. Yesterday,

18 before this chamber, you said that you have met Mr.

19 Delalic again at the beginning of August, 1992, when

20 you came with a specific task to the Mount Igman. Do

21 you remember your statement before the chamber?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. Can you tell us, Mr. Dzambasovic, what is IKM

24 Visoko, until that moment you were engaged with it?

25 A. This is a forward command post of the

1 republican staff of Bosnia-Herzegovina. A part of

2 officers which were unable to return to Sarajevo

3 remained in the free territory and formed the so-called

4 forward command post.

5 Q. Brigadier, sir, does that forward command

6 post have authority on the basis of orders of the

7 republican headquarters to issue orders and to appoint

8 in the area of its authority?

9 A. That forward command post had a role to

10 propose appointments to the commander in chief and he

11 would then appoint all the people to the vacant places

12 and functions needed at the moment. So the commander

13 in chief would appoint people for those important

14 functions.

15 Q. At the very day of yesterday -- at the very

16 end of yesterday, excuse me, I have asked you what is

17 your specific duty in Visoko when you came from

18 Konjic? Were you a commander of a tactical group?

19 A. And I have repeated yesterday, this was the

20 process. This was yet another step in the organisation

21 because we tried to organise tactical groups over the

22 entire area due to operative reasons and needs. We

23 formed a tactical group in Visoko, the commander of

24 which was me.

25 Q. Can you tell us, Brigadier, what was the

1 reason for forming of TG-1 at that moment? What was

2 the reason for its founding and what were its tasks?

3 A. The reasons for formation of all tactical

4 groups, including Tactical Group 1, were the same.

5 That was, within a certain area, in a certain direction

6 and a given period of time, to execute specific combat

7 tasks. In this case, these were tasks connected to

8 lifting of the blockade, like the siege of Sarajevo,

9 for example.

10 Q. Were the same tasks given to Mr. Delalic,

11 that is, the same tasks that the previous commander,

12 Mustafa Polutak had?

13 A. Authorities and tasks of all TGs were the

14 same. Specific tasks were different only in the

15 respect because they refer to different territories,

16 different areas.

17 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, since, as a senior officer

18 in that area, you performed your duties upon orders of

19 the war presidency, was Mr. Delalic ever a commander of

20 all the branches of armed forces of the Republic of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina within a certain area or direction?

22 A. Military terminology do not know this

23 terminology, all the branches, they're all the units

24 and they have their names, numbers, et cetera. If you

25 mean all the branches of the armed forces, this must be

1 a mistake then or the lack of military terminology.

2 Q. We believe that the transcript was

3 misinterpreted because again we have the translation of

4 branches instead of formations. We should have one

5 term for all the military formations. I apologise, my

6 colleague has asked me to pay attention to a detail.

7 The witness had said, "according to the orders of

8 superior command," and the interpretation said "war

9 presidency," which is contrary to our aim. In order

10 for us to examine the witnesses, those terms should be

11 used in the same way in all the situations because it

12 might influence the rulings of the Chamber.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (Microphone not on).

14 THE INTERPRETER: I do not have an

15 interpretation. There are technical difficulties. I

16 believe I can hear now.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: About an ambiguity, so I

18 was asking you whether that was a submission on the

19 examination of your witness. Because you're examining

20 your witness and you bring out only one through him.

21 And you want to make a submission, there will be a

22 background to it and we know that you are doing that.

23 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, if I can be of

24 assistance, the problem is one of interpretation and

25 translation. The consistency of terms. That's the

1 point. I am following the transcript and I was trying

2 to convey to my colleague that there's inconsistency in

3 the use of terms.

4 As Judge Jan pointed out last week,

5 "formations" is the correct word and we have

6 "branches." We have "war presidency" instead of

7 "supreme command." Those were the problems, Your

8 Honour. And those are crucial terms in this case.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We hear your

10 observations. Go on with your examination-in-chief.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC:

12 Q. Thank you, Your Honour. I ask now for the

13 evidence, Prosecutor's evidence, 99 7/7 to be shown to

14 the witness. Brigadier, before you you have an

15 appointment signed by commander in chief, Sefir

16 Halilovic, dated 27th of July, 1992, can you tell us

17 whether you have seen this appointment earlier?

18 A. I have never seen it because it was not under

19 my authority, although it -- there's a lack of logic in

20 its formulation, but, nevertheless, I can see it was

21 signed.

22 Paragraph 1 of the appointment states that

23 commander of all the formations of the armed forces of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the appointed person is Mr.

25 Delalic.

1 Q. You have said it is illogical, can you

2 explain to this chamber why do you think there's a lack

3 of logic, what are all the formations of the armed

4 forces? What were they at that time?

5 A. As soon as we had a decree with a force of

6 law, the formations were consisted of HVO, MUP and TO.

7 This is the reason. This is why all the formations is

8 a surplus or illogical, which ever way we interpret

9 it.

10 The other thing, I can explain that through

11 my example. A command of Tactical Group Visoko had

12 only units from municipal staff, which were at that

13 moment free of tasks. We could manoeuvre them, switch

14 them from one task to another from one area to

15 another. So tactical groups were consisted only from

16 units which were -- which did not have designated tasks

17 at given moments and those units were coming from

18 municipal staffs.

19 Q. Thank you. We all see these words on the

20 paper. You have said that this is illogical. Can you

21 tell us during 1992, was there at any time, Mr. Sefer

22 Halilovic, who is commander in chief, was he ever a

23 commander of all the formations, that is HVO, TO and

24 MUP?

25 A. According to the then organisation and

1 structure, there was no possibility for him to be

2 that.

3 Q. Who were the superior authorities over HVO

4 and who were over MUP?

5 A. The superior authority of HVO was in Grude

6 and the one for MUP was the ministry of the interior.

7 Q. When you look at this appointment again, can

8 you tell us, were you able to implement it and

9 practice, regardless to whom it refers to?

10 A. Unfortunately, this is only one of several

11 illogical examples of orders. The circumstances were

12 such that we did not have people with the expertise and

13 there was no time to check out everybody. So in

14 practice there were illogical orders. And we could

15 spot them at all levels and they had to undergo certain

16 changes for us to be able to implement them in

17 practice. And in the army we say that an order that

18 cannot be implemented is not an order.

19 Q. Brigadier, I will now show you another

20 document. Can you please, Exhibit D-146/1 be shown to

21 the witness. I have here copies for the chamber.

22 Brigadier, do you have in your hands an order dated

23 August 8th, 1992, signed president of the presidency

24 Alija Izetbegovic?

25 A. I am looking at it, it is a little illegible,

1 but I understand what it's saying.

2 Q. Is this an order that appoints Zejnil Delalic

3 as a commander of TG-1?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Brigadier, can you read to us now paragraph 2

6 of the order?

7 A. According to the military formation, this

8 annuls the appointed commanders included in this

9 order.

10 Q. A while ago you said that if in the case of

11 illogical formulations in orders, which were such due

12 to the lack of educated personnel, that you would try

13 to remove such mistakes. Please tell us under

14 paragraph 2 that you just read, was the previous order

15 annulled by this new one? At least when we're talking

16 about two different pieces of paper.

17 A. Regardless of what an order is, if we have a

18 superior authority, as we have the president of the

19 presidency here, then this means that. So I repeat, as

20 soon as we have a superior signing an order, regardless

21 of the type of an order, if it refers to the same

22 person, a previous order is annulled. In this specific

23 case, it means that an order issued earlier is being

24 annulled and put out of force.

25 Q. Brigadier, does this mean that the

1 appointment dated July 27th, signed by commander in

2 chief, Sefir Halilovic, even if it were valid, would

3 have been annulled with this date, which was August

4 8th, 1992?

5 A. Absolutely. This is a senior order

6 concerning the function and the person signed it as

7 well as the date of its issue.

8 Q. Yesterday you said that you were tasked with

9 coming to Mount Igman where you were first supposed to

10 coordinate activities there and then establish a

11 temporary command for an operation which was upcoming

12 at the time. Can you tell me what Tactical Groups were

13 present in the area of Hadzici and Igman at the time

14 when you arrived?

15 A. In the larger area of Mount Igman and

16 Hadzici, there were two tactical groups. Tactical

17 Group 1 and Tactical Group 2.

18 Q. Yesterday you also said that you proposed

19 that in order to conduct the operation, a temporary

20 command was to be established, did this take place,

21 Brigadier?

22 A. Yes, since we assessed the situation and

23 found out it was very complex and the task, which was

24 of strategic importance of us, which was lifting of the

25 siege of Sarajevo, a temporary command, South or JUG

1 was established on the basis of our proposal.

2 Q. I would now like the witness to be shown

3 D-145, Annex 6/8. It is on page 908 of Volume 3 of the

4 military expert's report.

5 Brigadier, is this a decision of 20 August

6 1992 signed by the Chief of Staff of the Supreme

7 Command, Sefik Halilovic, and president of presidency,

8 Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, and which establishes the

9 temporary command JUG or south?

10 A. Yes. This is the decision to that effect.

11 Q. May this document please be returned into the

12 file and that the witness be shown Exhibit 145, annex

13 6/9, which is the page 911, and may the witness also be

14 given the English and the Bosnian versions, and the

15 English one be placed on the ELMO.

16 Brigadier, will you please review the Bosnian

17 version of this appointment. Brigadier, did you in

18 1992 have an occasion to see this appointment?

19 A. Yes, I did. This is a proposal which was

20 accepted and confirmed from both the staff of the

21 Supreme Command and the president.

22 Q. Can you please use the pointer and point at

23 your position in the command. Can you tell us what was

24 your duty at that time?

25 A. At that time I was the Chief of Staff of the

1 temporary command of JUG, that is, I was deputy

2 commander.

3 Q. Brigadier, can you tell me whether Zejnil

4 Delalic was appointed to this temporary command and

5 what his duties were, if he was?

6 A. Yes. Mr. Zejnil Delalic was appointed

7 assistant for logistics for the very reasons which I

8 mentioned yesterday, which was his ability -- his best

9 qualification to become involved in those affairs, and

10 at that time we had an acute lack of all the material.

11 Q. Beside the appointment to the temporary

12 command JUG for assistant commander for logistics, did

13 Zejnil Delalic remain commander of the Tactical Group

14 1, and if he did, in which area was he active at that

15 time?

16 A. The very organisation of Tactical Groups was

17 such that in carrying out important tasks, such as the

18 one of the lifting of the siege of Sarajevo, these

19 people or units could be used in other operations.

20 Like here, the example is Mr. Delalic engaging in

21 logistics for this operation.

22 And another reason is that his Tactical Group

23 was, as we put it in the military jargon, in an

24 ancillary area. So that on that basis he was also able

25 to be engaged in this affair, because there were unit

1 commanders who had -- who would become commanders of

2 these units in this ancillary --

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, we are not

4 getting transcript again.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are there any problems

6 with the transcript? Make sure that they are

7 corrected.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: I am being told that it has

9 been about five minutes that we have not had the

10 questions and answers up appearing on the screen.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Continue for some time,

12 see how we can go. If it's still a problem, I will

13 rise and let them correct it. So carry on.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, as far as I can

15 see, neither questions or answer on either of these two

16 documents have been taken down, so I am afraid that I

17 will have to repeat all the questions in this area,

18 because I believe that they are crucial.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do so. I don't see how

20 crucial they were, but you may do so.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC:

22 Q. Brigadier -- Your Honours. A moment ago,

23 Brigadier, you looked at the appointment of 20 August

24 1992 signed by the Chief of Staff of the Supreme

25 Command and the president of the presidency on the

1 establishment of the temporary command JUG or south.

2 You had this document in front of you, and

3 can you please confirm that -- this is the previous

4 one, the previous decision. Is this the decision of

5 the temporary establishment of units for the operation

6 JUG?

7 A. Yes. Even yesterday I pointed out that we

8 assessed that two groups in such an important area

9 cannot coordinate their activities, and on basis of

10 this decision and the order which we saw later,

11 a temporary group JUG was established.

12 Q. Thank you. And now Brigadier, will you

13 please take a look at the appointment of 28 August 1992

14 signed by the Chief of Staff of the Supreme Command and

15 the president of presidency, and will you please tell

16 me whether this appointment -- this document is the

17 establishment of the temporary command JUG, which was

18 referred to in the decision which you previously saw?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Brigadier, can you tell me what was your duty

21 in this temporary command?

22 A. I was the chief of staff and at the same time

23 the deputy commander.

24 Q. Was Mr. Zejnil Delalic also appointed to this

25 temporary command, and if he was, what was his duty?

1 A. Yes, he was appointed assistant commander for

2 logistics, because he was indeed best qualified for

3 this job and we had a very desperate need for it.

4 Q. And I am going to ask you again the last

5 question, which had not been taken down in the

6 transcript originally. While he was engaged in the

7 temporary command of JUG, was Mr. Delalic still

8 commander of the Tactical Group 1, and where was the

9 zone of activity of that Tactical Group?

10 A. Yes. The previous appointments stayed in

11 place. It was an ancillary area, Pazaric, Ormen,

12 Hadzici, and all units in this ancillary area retained

13 their commanders and commanding officers.

14 Q. Brigadier, at the time of the JUG operation,

15 was the ancillary area at that time also the rear of

16 the main force, and that was the area of Konjic?

17 A. Just for your information, the defence of the

18 City of Sarajevo was a circle. That is how it was

19 organised. So that was the first ring of the defence.

20 And the second ring was on the opposite side. So that

21 this second ring went along the (inaudible) area which

22 you have just mentioned, Bjelasnica (phoen), Kalinovik,

23 Treskavica, Kalinovik, and so on.

24 Q. Thank you. Your Honours, the witness has

25 just recognised the appointment of 28th (sic), which

1 includes his name as chief of staff, and it includes

2 the name of Mr. Zejnil Delalic. This exhibit may not

3 have been accepted as an authentic document, and now I

4 would like to tender it as such.

5 It was at 20 of August, not 28th August.

6 It's 20th of August, for the transcript.

7 Is this exhibit accepted, please?

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, it is admitted.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

10 Q. The preparations of the Operation JUG,

11 immediately behind the defence lines in Sarajevo, were

12 they such, in August and September of '92, that they

13 required presence and involvement of all commanders?

14 A. The process of preparations for combat

15 operations is a very complex one, and professional

16 soldiers know this. And, indeed, it was necessary to

17 involve everyone who was taking part in this task. It

18 involves all levels of command and control.

19 Q. Brigadier, we probably do not need a very

20 wide military explanation of all of this. I am asking

21 you very specifically whether you and Zejnil Delalic

22 both, as commander of the Tactical Group 1 and a member

23 of the temporary command, did you physically spend all

24 your time in this area?

25 A. Yes. The system of command and control

1 required this, and if it were otherwise, our being

2 there would have been unnecessary.

3 Q. Brigadier, do you remember, given the

4 position which you had during this operation, in which

5 area were the units from Konjic and Jablanica engaged

6 at that time?

7 A. They were engaged in the main area or

8 direction, in the area of responsibility of Tactical

9 Group 2.

10 Q. Can you recall, and I assume that as chief of

11 staff you were engaged in preparation of all orders,

12 which units and which forces of those units were under

13 the command of the commander of Tactical Group 1 during

14 this operation?

15 A. These were forces from the units based in

16 Tarcin and Pazaric, which were free, and I think that

17 there were also part of units from Fojnica.

18 Q. With respect to the number of soldiers

19 involved in these units which were commanded by Zejnil

20 Delalic, did this formation have more soldiers than

21 those which were under the command of Tactical Group 2?

22 A. This question may be superfluous. These

23 units always involve at least two-thirds of the total

24 troops or soldiers that are used for this type of

25 combat operation. This was an ancillary area. It

1 would be logical that smaller troops, that is much

2 smaller troops, would be involved there.

3 Q. Brigadier, I would now like to move to

4 another area of questioning. Can you tell me whether

5 during this period it was usual that because of the

6 main staff being under siege in Sarajevo that the staff

7 would use its officers on the front line of the defence

8 -- outside of defence for transmitting messages to

9 other commanders in the area?

10 A. Yes, of course, because the system of command

11 and control had been interrupted. Had we had pigeons

12 available to send messages, we would have used them,

13 let alone commanders. In other words, we sort of made

14 do any which way we found possible, regardless of

15 whether this was part of any military doctrine or not.

16 Q. Brigadier, as a person who spent a

17 substantial amount of time in this area, did you know

18 whether in the area of Mount Igman there was a location

19 which was secure enough, that is a location which was

20 in constant operation where orders of the main staff of

21 armed forces could be sent?

22 A. Orders could be sent to the command of the

23 operative group, but in a manner that was not

24 completely secure, that is, by telephone links. The

25 fax communication and other types of communication did

1 not exist. As an exception, we could use certain

2 persons who would leave Sarajevo legally on some other

3 business, mostly using international organisations

4 which had the right to cross the runway and in some

5 other ways.

6 Q. Brigadier, did this result in some orders not

7 reaching the person to whom it was sent, and whether a

8 subsequent order would sort of reach this person before

9 the original one?

10 A. Unfortunately, this was a frequent case. As

11 I have personal -- I can give you some examples from

12 personal experience, and there were certain areas, such

13 as Zepa, where certain orders issued to perform certain

14 tasks could not reach that area for up to six months.

15 Q. Can the witness now please be shown document

16 D145 A/5/41, and it is on page 813. It is also part of

17 the Prosecution Exhibit. It's part of the Prosecution

18 Exhibit 99, but I don't know what the other number is.

19 There are copies for the Court, so that we can all

20 follow more easily the questions that I am about to

21 ask.

22 Brigadier, did you look at this document of

23 24 August 1992 signed by commander of TG-1, Mr. Zejnil

24 Delalic? Can you please tell me, in light of the

25 questions I asked of you previously, can you tell me

1 what this is -- what this document refers to, just for

2 -- I don't think you need to authenticate this

3 document, it's already been admitted, but if you could

4 just elucidate what the preamble of the document should

5 mean for -- with respect to the person who signed this

6 document?

7 A. I believe that I have understood the purpose

8 of your question. This is a classic example of

9 transmission of an order of the superior command to the

10 subordinate commands and formations. This is usual

11 practice and this was a regular way of going about it.

12 An order is always issued pursuant to something; in

13 this case pursuant to an order of the supreme command.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Brigadier. May --

15 the exhibit can be returned, and I would like to ask

16 the Trial Chamber whether this would be a good

17 convenient moment to -- oh, I apologise. My

18 apologies.

19 JUDGE JAN: Still another half an hour 'til

20 you get your coffee.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: No, no, no. I do not need

22 it. I just got confused by the time. I'm sorry.

23 Q. May the witness now please be shown document

24 D145, annex -- Roman numeral V/42, and pages 818. It

25 is also part of the Prosecution Exhibit Number 99.

1 There are also sufficient number of copies

2 for the Court. Brigadier, I presume you have never

3 seen this document before. There's no need for you to

4 authenticate it, but having in mind your previous

5 answer, I thereby ask you, is this an order by the

6 signing of which the commander transmitted as an order

7 of the superior command or there's -- or is there

8 something else in question?

9 It seems like the transcript is out of order

10 again. It has stopped again. I have been told that

11 the transcript should continue with word, but it's not

12 what I can see on the monitor.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it will be

14 convenient for us to have a break at this stage and

15 come back within 30 minutes, 25 to, while they work on

16 the transcript and see how far they can go with it. So

17 the Trial Chamber will now rise.

18 --- Recess taken at 11.05 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 11.40 a.m.

20 MR. DURIC: If I may beg Your Honours for a

21 moment of your indulgence. Namely, on page 1 of

22 today's record, Line 11, there has apparently has been

23 a blank. Namely, my learned colleague, Mr. Olujic, has

24 asked for Your Honours' permission for our client to

25 attend mass, which will be held today on the premises

1 of the detention unit at two o'clock this afternoon.

2 Our client has also had waived his right to be present

3 in this courtroom during the period of that hearing

4 today. And also the introduction of today's appearance

5 has not been recorded, so I most respectfully submit

6 that this be rectified.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. If

8 it has not been recorded, I repeat that I rejected the

9 application because it conflicted with the presence of

10 the accused person in the Trial Chamber during trials,

11 so you will not be granted permission the to leave.

12 MR. DURIC: Yes, Your Honour, we understood

13 that. But we would just like to add one little point

14 on the same thing. Namely, that two days ago was one

15 of the most important Catholic religious, you know,

16 holidays and all the people who are Catholic will be

17 attending the mass and we wanted to you know, do this

18 on his behalf.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You don't even know

20 whether or not that I am Roman Catholic myself.

21 MR. DURIC: Okay, thank you very much.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed,

23 please.

24 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, you are

25 still under oath.

1 MS. RESIDOVIC:

2 Q. Brigadier, before the break, I ask that you

3 be shown the document, D-145, dated 28th of August,

4 1992. Did you have a chance to take a look at the

5 document?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is it the document under the date of the 28th

8 of August, 1992, issued for the commander of the

9 detention facility by Mr. Delalic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Together with the document that I have

12 already shown you, you have stated that, in that

13 document, we deal with the transmission of an order of

14 the supreme command staff. Can you give us an opinion

15 on this order and tell us whether this is the same case

16 or are we talking about something else?

17 A. It is identical to the previous one. It

18 concerns a transmission of an order of the supreme

19 command.

20 Q. Brigadier, even in the times of peace, when

21 there are no conditions existing which you have

22 explained before the chamber referring to the siege of

23 Sarajevo, is it a custom in the military for commanders

24 to transmit orders of superior command?

25 A. Yes. Orders of that type can be transmitted,

1 particularly if there are just causes for it.

2 Q. Brigadier, in addition to the ability of a

3 commander to transmit an order issued by his superior

4 command, does the military practice know of a

5 subordinated commander to receive from his superior

6 command, a special task?

7 A. It's happened. I can explain that through my

8 personal example. I used to be chief of staff of first

9 corps and, as my function, it was never stated that me

10 as head of staff would go as head of delegation to Zepa

11 to establish a protection area. But I was given such

12 an order as a special task from my supreme command.

13 And, in addition to that, I was in Zepa nine times

14 until the protected area was established.

15 Q. If Mr. Delalic is a commander of TG-1 would

16 receive an order that in addition to the tasks as a

17 commander to perform another task, would this be a part

18 of this common military practice and would he be

19 obliged to perform it?

20 A. The military tries to avoid such orders, but

21 in practice it does exist. Under our authority and a

22 description of our functions there's always the last

23 sentence which more or less goes as follows: A

24 commanding officer, in addition to his function, also

25 has to abide by the orders of his superiors, which are

1 not contrary to the existing legislation.

2 Q. I would now ask that the witness be shown

3 D-145, Annex 6/10, page 914 of the Bosnian text and 915

4 of the English text. Could you please place the

5 English copy on the ELMO. Brigadier, does this

6 appointment as a commander of a building refer to you

7 personally?

8 A. Yes. It refers to me. I was then a deputy

9 commander, deputy head of the operation centre.

10 Q. Is this another example of you as the head of

11 the operation centre be given an additional task within

12 a certain period of time?

13 A. It is an identical example as I have

14 mentioned before.

15 Q. Brigadier, is the special task that according

16 to this document lasted for a certain period, did it in

17 any way change your authorities and functions as the

18 deputy head?

19 A. No.

20 Q. The exhibits may be returned to the files.

21 Talking of duties of Mr. Delalic as a member of the

22 temporary command JUG, you have pointed out that he was

23 appointed assistant commander for logistics. In

24 connection to that I ask for a document D-145, Annex

25 6/11 page 917 to be shown to the witness. Could you

1 please place the English copy on the ELMO. Brigadier,

2 are you looking at a document dated 28th of August,

3 1992, signed by the commander of TG-1, Delalic, Zejnil,

4 is that the one?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. Before the chamber you have described and Mr.

7 Delalic was given authority in the temporary command

8 JUG, but he also retained his authority as a commander

9 of TG-1, could you tell us, was this request signed by

10 Mr. Delalic in accordance with his authority?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Brigadier, when such a request is taken by a

13 deputy commander, or assistant commander, who then

14 issues an order to the assistant commander to implement

15 for the implementation of that particular task?

16 A. Requests and other acts which are not orders,

17 may be sent in all direction, meaning horizontally and

18 vertically however, depending on the need. In this

19 case, a commander of municipal staff was given a task

20 to issue an order to his assistant for logistics and he

21 is the executor, meaning the commander who receives

22 this request issues an order to his assistant for

23 logistics, who is then his execution body and he has to

24 implement the task.

25 Q. Brigadier, you have said that you came to --

1 from Visoko, can you tell us under whose subordination

2 the municipal staff of Visoko was at that time? What

3 was its superior command?

4 A. Municipal staff were within the district

5 staff and where the municipal staff was not

6 functioning, they were directly connected to the

7 republican staff of TO. Municipal staff of Visoko was

8 directly subordinated to the staff of Zenica.

9 Q. Since you have spent a lot of time preparing

10 the operation JUG in the municipality of Hadzici, do

11 you know which staff was superior to the municipal

12 staff of TO of Hadzici, Prozor and Taracin because this

13 is all one municipal staff of Hadzici.

14 A. Municipal staff of Hadzici and Trnovo, were

15 under the regional staff in Sarajevo. Prozor was under

16 the staff of Zenica. And around Neretva, Jablanica and

17 Konjic. This part was somewhat specific because

18 district staff of Mostar was not functioning. Those

19 two staffs were directly under the republican staff.

20 And there were several such cases, due to the

21 circumstances during that period.

22 Q. Brigadier, at the time of operations for the

23 lifting of the siege of Sarajevo, do you have any

24 personal knowledge or experience of whether there were

25 any obstructions on the part of the HVO in the conduct

1 of operations?

2 A. Unfortunately, there were. In various ways

3 and of various kinds. In the initial period we

4 cooperated and we expected for that cooperation to be

5 even better as time went on. And the initial period,

6 little incidents started occurring.

7 Q. Could you tell us about that in brief because

8 the chamber has already been told about it, but I just

9 wanted to know whether you as the head of staff of a

10 large operation during that period had any knowledge of

11 such obstructions?

12 A. Obstructions were usually connected to the

13 interceptions of convoys and ban of use of units and in

14 certain areas that are under the authority of the HVO.

15 Then the arrests began and so on.

16 Q. I would now ask you something that is

17 separate from the topics of combat activities and

18 authority. Prior to that I have an additional

19 question. Do you know if Tactical Group 1 or Tactical

20 Group 2 or your operative group at any moment had an

21 authority over municipal staffs within their areas of

22 activity?

23 A. We had no authority over municipal staffs.

24 To be more precise, we did not have an authority over

25 the command of municipal staffs. But, we did have

1 authority over units who came the us from municipal

2 staffs to be engaged in this operation, in this task.

3 Q. Brigadier, does the implementation of tasks

4 of tactical groups and your temporary command, did it

5 depend in any way upon the reception of information

6 you had about your enemy?

7 A. Of course.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This witness for

9 Delalic. He's not a witness for himself. He's not

10 standing trial. Much of the evidence we have heard

11 concern his own performance and not related to the

12 accused persons whose witness he is and for matters

13 which have been testified.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness stated that every

15 day at the beginning of August until the end of

16 December was with Delalic and they were doing things

17 together, so his knowledge of the responsibilities of

18 tactical operational groups, a member of which was Mr.

19 Delalic, and the temporary command, speak directly of

20 Delalic's authority.

21 I am not asking the witness to tell me what

22 he was doing, but were duties and responsibilities of

23 municipal staffs toward the tactical group and also,

24 therefore, towards Zejnil Delalic. If he can know that

25 from his experience.

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I hear what he has been

2 saying. He has been telling us what he has been doing

3 in the affair of his own operations.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC:

5 Q. Brigadier, did municipal staffs have an

6 obligation to give information, intelligent

7 information to commanders and command of tactical

8 groups?

9 A. Within the system of control and command,

10 every lower or subordinate command or unit is obliged

11 to forward information to a superior unit. And each

12 superior unit new information of importance for that

13 unit are also obliged to forward to its superior

14 command. So this was a two-way. When we go up in the

15 hierarchy, these are notifications and if we go down --

16 strike that.

17 Q. --- No translation.

18 A. It is -- I don't know about --

19 MR. O'SULLIVAN: We didn't get some

20 interpretation on the question and answer previously.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can the counsel please

22 repeat the question.

23 MR. O'SULLIVAN: If I can be of assistance,

24 on LiveNote, page 27, we are taking about the two-way

25 transmission between the unit and the Tactical Group,

1 and then the interpretation stops.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The transcript

3 continued, didn't it? Because I see the transcript

4 continued.

5 MR. O'SULLIVAN: The transcript continued,

6 but the interpretation did not.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: I just want to ask you

8 whether in this Tactical Group there were bodies,

9 either reconnaissance or intelligence bodies, which

10 could have carried out these tasks for the Tactical

11 Group?

12 A. No. These were temporary formations and they

13 only had bodies which were necessary for this specific

14 task. In other words, they did not have bodies or

15 other means.

16 Q. Brigadier, do you know, from your own

17 experience, from your involvement in the operations of

18 which you spoke, do you know whether at that time there

19 was some kind of an order from the main staff about the

20 obligations of the municipal staffs to provide this

21 type of operation -- of information to the Tactical

22 Groups?

23 A. I did not see such orders, but I know that

24 there were certain instructions which were drawn from

25 certain rules, combat rules, and they related to

1 intelligence activities. And these instructions and

2 these rules were basically followed.

3 Q. Was commander of Tactical Group, any Tactical

4 Group, but in this particular case Mr. Zejnil Delalic,

5 commander of Tactical Group 1, had a right to benefit

6 from these instructions and could he base his requests

7 on these instructions?

8 A. Of course. He was supposed to refer to these

9 instructions, and as were -- was any other command.

10 And there is no commander who can plan any combat

11 operation if he does not have sufficient information on

12 the enemy.

13 Q. If commander with his order encloses an order

14 of supreme command, or another superior body, was he

15 also supposed to refer to these rules?

16 A. In this specific case, if there is an annex,

17 if there is an enclosure, the preamble need not contain

18 it, but it may. So, in other words, it is not an

19 omission if it didn't.

20 Q. Brigadier, let us move to another area. When

21 you left Konjic, was there a prison there at that time?

22 A. I do not know about prisons, and I have to

23 state this with pleasure, that I never entered a

24 prison, nor did I ever see one to date. And I do not

25 know that there existed a prison in Konjic.

1 Q. Sometime in August and September you worked

2 with Zejnil Delalic on a daily basis. Did you ever

3 hear or learn that Mr. Zejnil Delalic had any

4 connection with the prison?

5 A. I did not hear that, and this would not have

6 been part of any commanders responsibility, anyway.

7 Q. Were prisons under the authority of the

8 Tactical Group commanders?

9 A. They were even less so, in terms of the

10 commander of Tactical Groups' authority. They were

11 under the authority of the MUP, and the MUP was the

12 body that handled that.

13 Q. Even though, as you just said, the Tactical

14 Group had no authority over the prison, would a

15 commander of the Tactical Group 1, regardless of who he

16 was, could he appoint commander or guards or any other

17 staff to a prison?

18 A. Within the framework of his responsibility,

19 he could not do it. Now, whether somebody did it in

20 reality is a completely different matter.

21 Q. Brigadier, did you -- have you ever heard --

22 did you ever hear that Mustufa Polutak, commander of

23 Tactical Group 1, or Zejnil Delalic as another

24 commander of TG-1, would appoint a commander of the

25 Celebici prison; did you ever hear or learn about that?

1 A. No. And I did not pursue such information.

2 Q. Brigadier, did you ever learn that the

3 commander of the Celebici prison report to the

4 commander of Tactical Group 1, regardless of whether

5 this commander was Mustafa Polutak or Mr. Delalic?

6 A. It would have made no sense, according to the

7 rules, but what happened as reality, I do not know.

8 Q. In accordance with rules or based on your own

9 knowledge, did you know of any report was sent to the

10 Tactical Group 1 by either the municipal staff of

11 Konjic or any other municipal staff, and would such a

12 report be within the framework of responsibility of any

13 Tactical Group?

14 A. I think I repeated this several times. It

15 has nothing to do with responsibilities of any command,

16 any Tactical Group, any formation.

17 Q. Thank you. Brigadier, I will now move onto

18 another area.

19 In the wartime, in the country which is

20 engulfed in the war, many international organisations

21 visit such places. As a ranking officer, could you

22 tell me who gave permissions to various international

23 organisations to visit different military facilities?

24 Do you know this?

25 A. There were both orders and instructions in

1 that regard, and the main staff was issuing

2 permissions. And depending on the command or unit,

3 they were obliged to accommodate any international

4 organisation which had received permission to carry out

5 a particular mission.

6 Q. Since you know what a practical -- what a

7 Tactical Group does, both in terms of theory and

8 practice, can you tell me whether Tactical Group 1 had

9 authority to issue permissions for visits of

10 international organisations to military facilities?

11 A. They could have issued permissions if they

12 had received such permission, either orally or in

13 writing, from its own superior command. So they were

14 -- they could have passed it on downward and issued it

15 to whoever the visitor was in a given case.

16 Q. Let me now ask you a hypothetical question.

17 If you as commander -- as chief of staff or commander

18 of the temporary command were asked by an international

19 organisation or Red Cross to mediate in order to obtain

20 permission, would you be required to do that, would you

21 have an obligation to do that according to your

22 position?

23 A. I could have done it for humane or moral

24 personal reasons. I could mediate it so that such

25 permission could be obtained early, but nobody at a

1 lower level could have done so.

2 Q. Brigadier, you spoke very clearly about the

3 only -- the subordinate units being under the command

4 of the Tactical Group. Now, we are still in the same

5 area here. Was commander of Tactical Group 1 -- had

6 authority to punish the military personnel in the area

7 of certain municipal staffs which were not subordinate

8 directly to him?

9 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone not on) You already

10 got information on that from so many witnesses, that

11 those units who transferred TG-1, the commander of

12 TG-1, would be able to punish them, not to the others.

13 We have got it from so many witnesses. Why you get it

14 duplicated, duplicated, the same information? The TG

15 commander is responsible for the action of those units

16 which have been placed under him, which have been

17 seconded to him.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, we did discuss these

19 issues. I just wanted to ask now whether, apart from

20 that, he had any authority over other soldiers who were

21 not directly subordinate or seconded to him.

22 A. Look, I believe that this issue should be

23 clarified. Commander of the temporary command could

24 not punish soldiers. They had their own home units.

25 But he could send a file to -- a report to this unit so

1 that this particular person could be prosecuted and

2 punished.

3 Q. If I understood you correctly, you are now

4 referring to the soldiers who were subordinate to him;

5 is that -- did I understand you correctly?

6 A. Yes. He could -- he did not have a body who

7 would be specially involved in this. Temporary

8 formations arrived from their own home units, and if a

9 person should be either punished or praised or

10 decorated, for that matter, this would all be done in

11 his home units.

12 Q. Very well. I think that you have clarified

13 this issue. And what Judge Jan warned me about was

14 regarding the other soldiers who were not subordinate

15 to him, to whom they remained subordinate and who had

16 the authority to punish them for any infractions or

17 violations; in other words, all the other soldiers who

18 were not subordinate to another command and who were

19 not subordinate to the Tactical Groups. Under whose

20 command, under whose authority did they remain?

21 This has been stated several times, but my

22 additional question to you now is who was in a position

23 to punish soldiers who had remained within the

24 municipal -- municipally-based units?

25 A. These were the competent commanders of

1 municipal staffs and later on commanders of brigades,

2 divisions, depending on the stage of reorganisation of

3 the armed forces that we were at.

4 Q. Was commander of the Tactical Group 1 -- did

5 the command of Tactical Group 1 have the same relation

6 to all municipal staffs in its area of activity, such

7 as the same relation to Jablanica, Hadzici and Konjic?

8 A. Yes. The status was the same. In other

9 words, all municipal staffs had the same status in that

10 regard.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Brigadier.

12 Your Honours, this concludes my examination

13 of this witness.

14 JUDGE JAN: I just want to get this

15 clarified. Tactical Group is a temporary formation for

16 a certain particular purpose. Now, if a unit is placed

17 under the command of the Tactical Group, would not the

18 commander of the Tactical Group be able to punish for

19 infringement of discipline, or would it have to send

20 the person who has committed indiscipline to its parent

21 unit?

22 A. Yes, commander of the Tactical Group 1 could

23 do this if the Tactical Group was such as we had, like

24 in operations group JUG, which was isolated, and he had

25 no other way of doing it. This we had in cases of

1 Zepa, Srebrenica and such. That's where he could do

2 this. But in the areas where the officer or soldier

3 could go back to his home or parent unit, that is what

4 would be normally done. So, in other words, we had

5 both types of cases, but you are right, commander of

6 the Tactical Group 1 could do this, but only in the

7 case where the soldier had the ability to go back to

8 his home base.

9 JUDGE JAN: Thank you.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Cross-examination.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Olujic:

12 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Dzambasovic.

13 A. Good afternoon.

14 Q. I am Mr. Zeljko Olujic, defence counsel for

15 Mr. Zdravko Mucic. I have very few questions for you.

16 In fact, I only have two questions for you. Firstly,

17 Mr. Dzambasovic, can we say that you, as -- for a

18 professional officer "in tempore criminus suspecte,"

19 that is in May of 1992, the Territorial Defence was not

20 sufficiently armed and organised at a time of the

21 aggression and attack against the state of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23 A. Yes. We could -- I could confirm that

24 partially. That is, the Territorial Defence was

25 unarmed at the time when the aggression took place. In

1 this period, and I had an opportunity to see that the

2 HVO units were much better armed, but in terms of

3 functioning of the system of command and control at

4 lower levels, such as municipal staffs, that

5 functioning was very good, and I was quite pleased with

6 how it functioned in Konjic, especially since a joint

7 hub command had been established. And, in fact, I

8 wished personally that this would -- this establishment

9 would go on and that the organisation would be

10 strengthened.

11 Q. Thank you. Just one more question,

12 Mr. Dzambasovic. During your examination-in-chief you

13 stated that sometime around 21 May you left Konjic. Is

14 that correct?

15 A. I believe so. I think it was a

16 representative of the HVO who went with me. I gave you

17 two dates, and I am not sure -- I just can't remember

18 the HVO's representative's name, Azinovic or Petrovic.

19 They may be able to tell you that.

20 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, did somebody come to replace

21 you?

22 A. Nobody came to replace me in Konjic.

23 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, Your Honours. No

24 further questions.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any further questions?

1 MR. KARABDIC: May it please the Court. May

2 I proceed? I only have several questions

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Karabdic:

4 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, I am Salih Karabdic, defence

5 counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic. I have several questions

6 for you. You came to Konjic as member of the

7 republican staff, the staff of the supreme command. In

8 this position did you issue orders or could you issue

9 orders to the military formations and other formations

10 of the armed forces which -- of the Republic of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

12 A. I could not order, and not only myself, but

13 nobody who was in this position and who had a role that

14 I had. However, I was -- what I could do was to assess

15 the situation and suggest what specifically could be

16 done in this area, to notify the supreme command, and

17 on the basis of that they could issue an order which

18 would then be binding for this particular staff or

19 command.

20 Q. In other words, you as a member of the staff

21 did not have the right to issue orders or to issue

22 commands? Did other members of the staff, deputies and

23 assistants, have the right to order?

24 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone turned off) Deputies

25 and assistants belonging to his delegation or --

1 MR. KARABDIC: Would you please repeat the

2 question.

3 JUDGE JAN: You are talking about deputies

4 and assistants. Deputies or assistants belonging to

5 his delegation or to somebody else?

6 MR. KARABDIC: I was referring to his staff.

7 JUDGE JAN: His evidence seems to be as an

8 adviser or as an observer, and he said he could not

9 issue any orders. So this question does not really

10 arise.

11 MR. KARABDIC: My apologies, Your Honours.

12 My question was only whether the other members from --

13 of the staff from which he came had the same authority

14 and the same position, including all the assistants and

15 deputies. That was the only purpose of the question.

16 A. The right to command an order has other

17 commander exclusively, that is his and his -- that is

18 his authority and his only. This is the case in all

19 armies of the world, and it is not for not if when you

20 hear the comment. If something is working in a unit,

21 everybody shares in the praise. If something goes

22 wrong, it is only the commander's fault.

23 Q. So according to these military rules, the

24 commander is exclusively responsible for his unit? Is

25 it only the commander who is responsible for his unit

1 and to what extent is he responsible for his unit?

2 A. The commander is always responsible for his

3 unit, whether he is on vacation or wherever. He is

4 always responsible for his unit. But he himself is --

5 he has to be responsible to his own superior, all the

6 way up the chain of command, from the laws to the

7 highest unit, to the smallest to the largest.

8 Q. Who appoints commanders, assistants and

9 deputies in the particular staff?

10 A. This is regulated by the law on defence, and

11 so in that regard the presidency has its own authority,

12 the Supreme Command has its own authority, the main

13 staff of the Federation Army has its own authority and

14 so on and so forth.

15 Q. Does the chief of staff appoint his

16 assistants and deputies, is he -- does he have

17 authority to appoint the subordinate officers within

18 his staff, or who appoints them?

19 A. It is the commander or the -- or the

20 competent command, but the whole staff can propose.

21 Q. Can the commander -- can the chief of staff

22 appoint his own -- can the chief of staff appoint his

23 own deputies or assistants?

24 A. No, he cannot. This is all in the rules. It

25 depends on the level of the command. And this is also

1 provided for in the law on defence. It is who can

2 appoint whom, and so forth.

3 Q. You said that the MUP was part, that MUP

4 formations were part of the armed forces of

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina. You testified to that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do these general principles on command and

8 control are applicable to the MUP, in your view, to the

9 MUP as part of the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10 A. That's not in my experience. It's so by

11 law. And I must say that I have not, I have not

12 studied this very closely. But the general rules, the

13 general principles are the same.

14 MR. KARABDIC: Thank you. I have no further

15 questions.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any questions,

17 Ms. McMurrey?

18 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, the Defence of

19 Esad Landzo has no questions for the Brigadier. Thank

20 you.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Questions from the

22 Prosecution?

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann

24 Q. Now, Brigadier, the order that you received

25 on the 14th of April to go to the Konjic region and to

1 prepare and organise the Territorial Defence, was an

2 order that was signed by Hasan Efendic, the commander

3 of the republican territorial headquarters, Jerko Doko,

4 the minister of defence, and the president of the

5 presidency, who, I assume, is President Izetbegovic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, of those gentlemen, Hasan Efendic is a

8 military person, he has military rank and title, is

9 that right?

10 A. Yes, he's the commander in chief of the

11 Territorial Defence.

12 Q. What about the minister of defence, Jerko

13 Doko, is he a military person or a civilian?

14 JUDGE JAN: At the relevant time.

15 MR. NIEMANN:

16 Q. At the relevant time.

17 A. He is a civilian. And this is civilian

18 leadership. And through new regulations, the ministry

19 of defence has the regional staff and then under them

20 were the municipal staff. This was the line of command

21 and control at the time.

22 Q. And I think you'll agree with me that

23 President Izetbegovic at the time was definitely

24 civilian?

25 A. President Izetbegovic was under one function,

1 a civilian. But under another one, namely, the

2 president and the presidency were the supreme command.

3 Q. Now, I take it that the civilian

4 representatives that signed and namely the minister for

5 defence and President Izetbegovic, because they are

6 civilians, they are signing merely as witnesses to the

7 order signed by Hasan Efendic?

8 JUDGE JAN: I don't understand the question.

9 They were civilians, but under the law, one was a

10 supreme commander of all armed forces and the other was

11 head of the defence ministry which controlled all armed

12 forces.

13 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, and we've heard

14 substantial evidence on a municipal level, Your

15 Honours, but when a civilian signed, they did sign

16 merely as witnesses and that the military signature was

17 the one --

18 JUDGE JAN: The supreme commander under the

19 constitution. For example, the President of Pakistan

20 is supreme commander, he's not a military person. And

21 the minister of defence, he's not a military person.

22 MR. NIEMANN: I will be making an argument in

23 due course, Your Honours, that the position on the

24 municipal level operated in a similar way to the

25 position on the republican level. And that's the

1 import of my questions.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: I believe this is an

3 incorrect question. This witness stated the

4 legislation and regulation stating the authority and

5 duties of military personnel and such regulation

6 compared to the municipal level does not exist.

7 THE WITNESS: Can I give an additional

8 explanation? Concerning the municipal level --

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Excuse me, there are

10 periods of cross-examination.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And there are periods

13 for submission of arguments. And I think we can leave

14 this for that period because this is not what the

15 witness may be able to conclude it.

16 MR. NIEMANN: I have to base my submissions

17 on something, Your Honours. I can't just do it out of

18 the air. Just picking up on the objection from

19 Ms. Residovic, it's difficult for me to conduct

20 cross-examination when she objects to things merely

21 because they are questions that she doesn't like to

22 hear. If there's good foundation for the objection,

23 well and good.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I have indicated it's a

25 necessary to objection to a matter which will finally

1 come under submissions. The questions will be asked,

2 then there answered. And then the conclusions will be

3 left for final submissions.

4 MR. NIEMANN:

5 Q. When you went to Konjic, you met with

6 Dr. Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic, who was president of the

7 war presidency, that's right, isn't it?--

8 A. Yes, he was the president of the war

9 presidency, but he had a civilian function because by

10 the new regulation, municipal staffs were put outside

11 of the war presidency and connected to district

12 secretariats. So the commanders of municipal staff

13 were not members of the war presidency. This is a very

14 important regulation provision that was new at that

15 time.

16 Q. Perhaps if you just answer my questions,

17 we'll get over this process a lot faster. Now, when

18 you went to Konjic, you went there with the express

19 purpose of assisting and an advising in the

20 organisation of the Konjic Territorial Defence, didn't

21 you? A simple yes or no answer.

22 A. Absolutely yes.

23 Q. Why would you see a member of the civilian

24 leadership if that was your task and purpose?

25 A. This is a well founded question. I meant to

1 find out the information of the general situation in

2 Konjic. I came to an unfamiliar territory and never

3 had any official duties, nor friends, so I just wanted

4 the know the information that were of my concern.

5 Q. Had you known Dr. Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic, the

6 president of the war presidency prior to this date?

7 A. No, never. I have stated that yesterday. I

8 did not know anybody in Konjic, neither civilians, nor

9 the military personnel.

10 Q. Now when you first met Mr. Delalic in Konjic,

11 when you went there, were you aware that he had been

12 given certain authorities, like yourself, by the

13 minister of defence, Jerko Doko?

14 A. No, I was not familiar with that, but he

15 could have been given.

16 Q. And I take it you would agree with me that,

17 or you would state that Jerko Doko had authority or

18 could give military functions to anyone in the Republic

19 if he wanted to, couldn't he?

20 A. No. Jerko Doko is a defence minister under

21 his authority. His authorities are various, but under

22 his authority he can appoint and the most common case

23 was sending people to different countries in order to

24 purchase supplies and equipment.

25 Q. So he had the authority to permit you to

1 carry out certain functions in the Konjic area, but

2 when it came to Mr. Delalic, he lacked that authority,

3 is that what you're saying?

4 A. No. I said that under his authority he could

5 have and he did. My order was signed by the commander

6 of the TO and the minister of the defence and the

7 president of the presidency. I could not go otherwise

8 to Konjic. And the conditions for my arrival, physical

9 arrival through the shortest routes to Konjic were

10 non-existent.

11 Q. Well, a moment ago you told me that the

12 minister of defence and the president of the

13 presidency, because of their position and function,

14 could give you a military direction and you're now

15 saying something different.

16 A. No, I am saying the same thing. Under the

17 constitution and the law, the President of Bosnia and

18 Herzegovina is a supreme command authority of all the

19 armed forces, so all the orders connected to that

20 level, they can obtain. This is under the

21 constitution. The minister of defence has its own

22 authority and everything falling within the scope of

23 it, regardless whether this is a military or some other

24 nature, he can perform, but within the framework of his

25 authority.

1 Q. Well --

2 A. Even now the minister of defence can do

3 that.

4 Q. But the order that was given to you, was an

5 order that could have been given by Mr. Efendic on his

6 own or Mr. Doko on his own or President Izetbegovic on

7 his own, couldn't he?

8 A. Not on his own for several reasons. It was

9 jointly signed for a reason of Bosnia-Herzegovina being

10 a internationally recognised state. To see that this

11 is not a state of only one nationality, but a

12 multi-ethnic state with its government, the presidency

13 and other authorities, the nature, the multi-ethnic

14 nature of the command of the authorities and all

15 the governmental bodies, we needed to reconcile certain

16 political aims at a time. It wasn't of my concern, but

17 this was yet another reason.

18 Q. Where is this provided for, because you had

19 to cover all the multi-ethnic groups that everyone had

20 to sign it before it became a valid order?

21 A. This is a practice that's been kept up even

22 today. A commander of the supreme command was Rasim

23 Delic and even today I can bring you similar orders.

24 That was valid for the period of transition of three

25 years until we established joint command.

1 Q. So if you had received this order to go to

2 Konjic and assist with the organisation of the

3 Territorial Defence, it would have only been signed,

4 say, for example, Hasan Efendic, you would have just

5 ignored that?

6 A. I haven't given a thought to it. I don't

7 know if -- I probably would not ignore that as a

8 soldier.

9 Q. What about if you'd received it from

10 President Izetbegovic, would you have ignored that

11 one?

12 JUDGE JAN: He's said --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour..

14 JUDGE JAN: He's said that as a supreme

15 commander of the armed forces, how can ignore the order

16 of the supreme commander?

17 MR. NIEMANN: But, Your Honour, he also said

18 that everybody had to sign it in order to meet some

19 multi-ethnic requirement about all being signed on.

20 JUDGE JAN: Maybe it was in accordance with

21 the rules of that state.

22 MR. NIEMANN: Well, that's what I am asking,

23 Your Honour. I am trying to explore that. Because

24 there has been a lot of evidence here. For example,

25 the president of the war presidency, and one would

1 think that the a war presidency would have some

2 relevancy.

3 JUDGE JAN: You're assuming that the federal

4 set-up was duplicated at the municipal level.

5 MR. NIEMANN: We don't know that and we're

6 trying to explore that, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE JAN: Please do that.

8 MR. NIEMANN:

9 Q. So if it only came from one of them, you

10 would have to assess your position according to who it

11 was, is that your evidence?

12 A. At the top level, the president of the

13 presidency, the presidency and the supreme command are

14 clearly defined. And anything below that, as the

15 Honourable Judge stated, had to oblige under the

16 orders. How can I stand against the supreme command?

17 This was only at that level and the level of the

18 ministry of defence. At all other levels, civilian

19 authorities had no authority within the chain of

20 command and control. This is regulated by the law.

21 It's not an invention.

22 Q. Yes, in hindsight it's easy to look back and

23 see the way all this evolved, is it not? And then to

24 say, well, this person had this authority and that

25 person had that authority. But in reality, you were in

1 Sarajevo, you were in Konjic, you're not seriously

2 suggesting that the very fine letter of the law was

3 applied while Sarajevo was fighting for its life, were

4 you? You're not seriously suggesting that?

5 A. Even at times of peace, you cannot really

6 implement every single letter of the law, particularly

7 not during the war. But in Konjic, where I was, nobody

8 can say that the authorities there were not functioning

9 as well as the system of command and control at the

10 municipal level because it did at everybody's

11 satisfaction. The HVO and the TO performed its tasks

12 and the authorities were functioning. Under the

13 conditions it may have been even ideal. But, as I

14 said, there's in ideal.

15 Q. Now when you went to Konjic to assist in the

16 organisation of the Territorial Defence, did you ever

17 tell any one or instruct any one that it would be

18 helpful if civilians also signed military orders along

19 with military personnel?

20 A. No, I have not. I don't know why I would say

21 that.

22 Q. Perhaps I might ask you why you wouldn't say

23 that. Is there a reason why you wouldn't say that?

24 A. I have seen a document shown to me

25 yesterday. And if I remember correctly this was the

1 May 18th. And a whole line of binding orders were

2 concluded at the meeting of the war presidency and it

3 was signed by the president of the war presidency

4 together with the members, in order to harmonise the

5 authorities of civilian and military authorities. And

6 that it be controlled at that level to know whose

7 competence is what. But there were instances if I need

8 to go somewhere. Since the situation being as it was,

9 I could not go from Jablanica to Mostar or from Konjic,

10 unless I was given a permit from the HVO authority. So

11 I cannot say that, for example, I needed an example of

12 Ivica Azinovic or Petrovic and then the president and

13 then the commander and then some additional people,

14 only to make it legal to go through the control point,

15 not to be returned or somebody might think that I

16 deserted the army. My task was to do what I was tasked

17 with, but instances were such in practice that there

18 were permits or orders with three or four various

19 people and one list, people of various structures and

20 levels. But this is only when we talk about

21 authorisations for supply or to get permission for a

22 task to get equipment, ammunition.

23 Q. Signing it in an official capacity,

24 exercising authority, notwithstanding it might be for a

25 limited purpose?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Yes, is fine.

3 A. Civilian wrote that for me to go through

4 points more easily, to see that it is legal. I wish it

5 were not so, but this is what was necessary.

6 Q. Now you said in your statement that you gave

7 to Madam Residovic, that when you arrived in Konjic and

8 until the 20th of May, Zejnil Delalic didn't hold any

9 military post and that he dealt exclusively with

10 logistical problems as such. You'd agree with me that

11 logistics is a fundamental component of a military

12 operation or an army, isn't it? It's a fundamental

13 part of an army?

14 A. I have to agree on the importance of

15 logistics for any military operation. Maybe 70 per

16 cent of the resources are engaged for the needs of

17 logistics in modern armies, this is true. But for that

18 purpose, we would engage people who never were military

19 professionals. In our situation, these were people who

20 were successful managers, business people, prominent

21 people of the community and we used those people for

22 those purposes. I have never heard before of Mr.

23 Zejnil Delalic. I have just met him then, together

24 with all the other people. And people expected that

25 from those people, from those people who knew their way

1 about good organisers because a municipality had to

2 provide with medical aid, food, supplies needed for

3 both civilians and the army and the process went

4 parallel. Authorities would purchase equipment and

5 supplies and sometimes there were people from command

6 units doing so.

7 Q. And in doing, in most armies, the role and

8 function of logistics has devoted to it a whole chain

9 of command going right up to the level of general in

10 most instances, doesn't it?

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are you not pushing this

12 interpretation too far? If a person is appointed to go

13 between two persons and is now described as logistics,

14 it doesn't really mean it conforms to the general

15 approach of logistics in a normal army.

16 MR. NIEMANN: As long as Your Honours have

17 not been swayed by suggestions put to you that

18 logistics is some sort of civilian function carried on

19 by someone totally unconnected --

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The army was so

21 described, his function was a coordinator before he had

22 a proper ability appointment, he was a coordinator.

23 MR. NIEMANN: The witness said he dealt

24 exclusively with logistic problems and that's what I

25 have dealt with in my question.

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Dr. Hadzihuseinovic, who

2 appointed him and explained what he appointed him for.

3 MR. NIEMANN: He was a civilian and didn't

4 appoint him to any military function. This witness.

5 JUDGE JAN: Somebody who can assist you in

6 getting the supplies. You mean without being inducted

7 into the army, he can be given that function if that's

8 more convenient. There's no sort of a rigid rule that

9 only a military officer must be entrusted with logistic

10 functions. And, particularly, look at the situation in

11 Konjic at that time.

12 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours understand

13 military matters far better than I do.

14 JUDGE JAN: Certainly I don't do that. The

15 General knows more probably. Is there any problem with

16 a civilian being entrusted with function of logistics

17 or being inducted into the army?

18 MR. NIEMANN: As I say, Your Honour, I am not

19 an expert in that. All I am saying is that I am

20 familiar with the fact that logistics is very much a

21 military issue and armies devote tremendous efforts to

22 dealing with the issue of logistics.

23 JUDGE JAN: Yes, but to whom that function

24 can be entrusted is a different matter.

25 MR. NIEMANN: I'll move on.

1 Q. You mentioned the reasons why you believed

2 Mr. Delalic became ultimately appointed to the position

3 of TG-1 commander. I take it that you're aware of the

4 fact that he was, in fact, appointed by Sefer

5 Halilovic, to that position, TG-1 commander.

6 A. Yes, and we could also see the order.

7 Q. And did you talk to Sefer Halilovic about the

8 appointment of Zejnil Delalic to this position?

9 A. No, I have not. Because he was appointed

10 prior to my arrival to Mount Igman. Otherwise, I did

11 have a communication link with Sefer through telephone

12 lines. So, he was given an appoint as commander of

13 TG-1 before I came to Igman.

14 Q. Well, do you know then the reason why Sefer

15 Halilovic actually appointed him?

16 A. I haven't talked to him, but I told you

17 that's what I -- because I think he assessed that it

18 would be for the best and the basis of a suggestion and

19 on the basis of the information at his disposal.

20 Q. Was this a suggestion from you, is that what

21 you're saying or are you just assuming this is why

22 Zejnil Delalic was appointed to this position?

23 A. I presume. Since I have met Mr. Delalic, I

24 was given the impression, that he is a very able

25 person, educated with organisational skills. I did not

1 question his appointment, but we did not have enough

2 officer personnel at any level.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we'll have to

4 break here.

5 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And resume at 2.30 p.m.

7 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 --- Upon resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 (The witness entered court)

3 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

4 are still under oath.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Proceed, Mr. Niemann.

6 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honours.

7 Q. Might the witness be shown a number of

8 exhibits. The first one I would like the witness to

9 look at is exhibit -- Prosecution Exhibit 99-7/9.

10 Perhaps, Your Honours, if it assists the registrar, I

11 might give her the numbers of the next two documents

12 that I want to show the witness in due course.

13 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone not turned on) Get

14 the English version, so that we know what we are

15 talking about.

16 MR. NIEMANN: The next two documents are

17 D145(a)6-51, and it's 900, page 900, and the final one

18 is D146-1, which is an order of the 8th of August

19 1992.

20 Q. Brigadier, just looking at the document that

21 you now have in front of you and that -- is it

22 displayed on the ELMO?

23 JUDGE JAN: Yes.

24 MR. NIEMANN:

25 Q. Now, that's an order of an appointment, again

1 by Sefer Halilovic; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Have you seen this document before?

4 A. No, I have not seen this document.

5 Q. You will notice that it's dated the 11th of

6 July, 1992.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And then there is the next document that I

9 asked the registrar to get out for me, which is;

10 D145-A6-51. Perhaps the English version could be

11 placed on the ELMO of that document. It's another

12 appointment again to Tactical Group 1, Zejnil Delalic,

13 is it not?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And then finally there's the document that I

16 asked to be obtained, D146-1. Now, did you see any of

17 these documents in 1992?

18 A. I did not see them. It was not necessary,

19 and the files, the archive of the temporary command was

20 not in the same location where I was.

21 Q. Just looking now -- now that you have looked

22 at the three of those documents, when was he appointed

23 Tactical Group commander?

24 A. I believe that this is already spelled out in

25 these orders. There are three orders here, and I

1 explained previously that the -- the one that which is

2 valid or in the force is the one that bears the latest

3 date and which was issued by the most superior

4 commander. And they each have -- they are each valid

5 based on the time frame for which they have been

6 issued.

7 Q. And so if they in any way expand or contract

8 duties, then they would be valid, at least for the time

9 that they are operational, on an expanded or a

10 contractual basis?

11 A. No. It means that the reason for the changes

12 were the changes in situation, the orders that were

13 incomplete, lacking in logic, and it is obvious that

14 the previous orders were either incomplete or not

15 completely logical, rational. So this is the right way

16 to go about changing them.

17 Q. This is a guess on your part, isn't it? You

18 didn't actually know that was the case?

19 A. I know this from the duty where I worked, and

20 of course I don't know for a post where I did not

21 work. But I know that -- that is the basis of the

22 military discipline and operation. This is something

23 that is done to date.

24 Q. So you know for a fact that there had to be

25 three orders issued in this case because, as a matter

1 of fact, something that you know, there was confusion

2 at the time?

3 A. Listen, at that time there was no confusion.

4 System on control and command was interrupted because

5 we did not have enough means, and by means I mean

6 equipment. And the conditions under which the system

7 was operating, you have many people from the

8 international organisations who were on the ground at

9 the time who called it a miracle.

10 Q. Okay. Now, looking at the final document,

11 which is the order signed by President Izetbegovic.

12 First it says order for deposition -- disposition, I'm

13 sorry, "Order for Disposition." What does that mean,

14 the word "disposition," immediately under the word

15 "order" in the middle of the page?

16 A. You mean the Order for Disposition, this is

17 what you are asking about?

18 Q. The words "for disposition," what does that

19 mean?

20 A. It means for the appointment of personnel to

21 specific duties, to a specific unit.

22 Q. Why didn't it appear in the other orders?

23 A. Those who wrote it should know this. Maybe

24 they'll appear. Well, this is not a mistake, nor is it

25 superfluous in this particular case. There are various

1 formula for appointment of personnel to certain

2 duties. The main point is that they have to refer to

3 particular legal provisions.

4 Q. Okay. Now, on paragraph 2 -- do you see

5 paragraph numbered 2? It says, "According to war

6 Presidencies," "war presidency." Do you see paragraph

7 2 there?

8 A. This is not war Presidency. It is the war

9 formations. This must have been a -- a typist may have

10 made an error.

11 Q. Are you saying this is a problem with the

12 translation, in the English version; is that what you

13 are saying?

14 A. I don't know where the problem lies.

15 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone turned off) Just a

16 minute. Is he looking at the same document -- we are

17 looking at the document dated 8th August.

18 MR. NIEMANN: Paragraph 2.

19 JUDGE JAN: It is the document of 8 August.

20 Paragraph 2 in that document is being referred to by

21 the learned counsel.

22 MR. NIEMANN:

23 Q. See where it says "according to war

24 Presidency." Do you say that's not what the Bosniak

25 version is?

1 A. No, this would -- should be -- it means in

2 wartime formations, and there you have a list of all

3 duties, top to bottom. And this is what this refers

4 to. I don't know how this was translated in this way,

5 but what it means is this is actually an abbreviation,

6 an acronym that is well-known and established in the

7 military parlance.

8 Q. Well, what does it mean? Can you just help

9 us by telling us what it means?

10 A. I can explain it in this way. If there was a

11 wartime formation, what a Tactical Group command has to

12 have, in order to function, from this formation posts

13 or the functional -- functioning posts, and here, for

14 example, you have that Mr. Delalic was appointed to a

15 commander in this formational position. And that

16 Velimir Malic was appointed for the logistics. If

17 there were any other vacancies, those vacancies could

18 also have been filled in this particular way.

19 Q. Well, we'll move on. I would just like you

20 to look at another three documents that you looked at

21 in evidence in chief. I have some very short questions

22 on those. I'll give you one at a time. The first

23 document is Exhibit D145(a)5D-4011, and it's numbered

24 813 through to 816, including the English translation.

25 And to assist the registrar, Your Honours, I

1 might refer to the next two exhibits so she can get

2 them for me. Madam Registrar, if you could please take

3 out Exhibit D145-A 5D-42-1, which is the very next

4 document in that group that you just looked at. It's

5 page 818. Don't give it to the witness yet. Well, it

6 doesn't matter. And, finally, the next document is

7 D145-A6-10-1, which is at 913 -- 914 through to 915.

8 Thank you.

9 Brigadier, now I understand it's your

10 evidence that in relation to the first document now

11 shown to you that this document represents an order

12 that's being transmitted through the Tactical Group

13 commander; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So by transmission through the Tactical Group

16 commander, you are suggesting, are you, that he is

17 merely acting as some sort of a conduit?

18 A. I explained that the orders of the superior

19 commands can be transmitted orally or in writing or

20 whatever the situation requires. In order for them to

21 be used in this particular case, it was done in

22 writing. It should not change its meaning and it is

23 normal that -- in transmission of information, and I

24 think I gave an example, the intelligence. I said that

25 not only is the transmission of the intelligence not

1 forbidden, but it is deemed very useful.

2 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone not on) Your question

3 is that TG-1 commander was merely being used as a

4 channel for communicating the order of the supreme

5 command to another authority. This is the question.

6 A. Yes, that is what I said. And this is not

7 forbidden. It actually -- it's considered a positive

8 thing.

9 JUDGE JAN: The question was whether the TG

10 command was being used as a channel, and you said yes.

11 That's the end of the matter.

12 MR. NIEMANN:

13 Q. If he was acting as a channel, then, what

14 authority would he have to order that a copy of the

15 report be submitted to him, namely, this command, as is

16 provided for in paragraph 1?

17 A. To whom?

18 Q. If you read paragraph 1, it says in the

19 second to last -- sentence of that paragraph, "One copy

20 should be submitted to this command."

21 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone not on) The

22 transcript is again wrong. It says as general, not

23 channel. I'm so sorry. In fact I've seen --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE JAN: -- find it very difficult -- I

1 thought I said channel, not general.

2 MR. NIEMANN: Clearly, you said "channel,"

3 Your Honour.

4 Q. If you can't answer it, just say so, but if

5 you have an answer, I'm inviting you to give it to us.

6 If you don't know, it doesn't matter.

7 A. I'm sorry, but I did not understand what you

8 were saying.

9 Q. Okay. Well, my question is this. But if the

10 Tactical Group commander was merely acting as a channel

11 or a conduit through which the order was being passed

12 from the supreme command to the municipal headquarters,

13 then what authority would the Tactical Group commander

14 have to order that a copy of the statements or reports

15 that are generated be submitted to him.

16 A. You mean to give it to the commander of the

17 Tactical Group?

18 Q. It says one copy should be submitted to this

19 command.

20 A. Yes, to be put in files.

21 Q. Okay. Now, what about paragraph 5, the

22 second paragraph of paragraph 5, where it says that

23 Esad Ramic, the commander of the municipal headquarters

24 of Konjic, BiH armed forces, is personally responsible

25 to me? What would give him the authority to say that,

1 if he was merely acting as a conduit?

2 A. He was a conduit, and this is what you can

3 glean from all the CC's, it was to the MUP of Konjic,

4 and he had nothing to do with chief of the MUP of

5 Konjic. The more people receive some order, the

6 better. It does nothing, it does not interfere with

7 the chain of command at all. It is always better to

8 have more information rather than less.

9 Q. You will agree with me that there's nothing

10 on the face of this document itself to suggest that

11 he's acting in any extra or extraordinary capacity,

12 something beyond what is his ordinary course of duty?

13 A. You mean -- you are referring to the tasks of

14 the Tactical Group commander?

15 Q. If you say to me that this document is merely

16 a conduit to the municipal headquarters, and that is

17 not, in effect, an order by the Tactical Group

18 commander, and that is he merely acting extra, his

19 duties, or carrying on extra duties assigned to him,

20 then there is nothing I am saying to you, on the face

21 of this, is there, to suggest that that's what he is

22 doing?

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are you suggesting that

24 he is not issuing this order on behalf of any other

25 person, but on his authority?

1 MR. NIEMANN: As I understand the Defence

2 position, Your Honour, they say this isn't his order.

3 He is merely a conduit from supreme command. My

4 question is, well, there is nothing on the face of it

5 to suggest that.

6 Q. Is there?

7 A. This order is transmitted. It does not

8 change the essence of this order of the supreme

9 command, and is directed to several addresses of

10 various interested parties, regardless of who wrote

11 this order and to whom it was sent.

12 Q. Okay. Let's look at the next document that I

13 asked the registrar to kindly get out for me,

14 145-A 5(d)42/1. And could the English version please

15 be placed on the ELMO, especially the first page.

16 Now, again looking at this document, I think

17 your position is that this is also a document that as a

18 command that is issued or channelled through the

19 Tactical Group commander, and it is extra, his duties

20 and responsibilities. It's something that is assigned

21 to him as an extra responsibility, specifically for

22 this purpose. I think I am right in saying that's your

23 position, isn't it?

24 A. The task is not just his own. He was -- it

25 was for all commanders, and all commanders had an

1 obligation to transmit such orders. In this particular

2 case it was most convenient to send -- to all the

3 addressees through the Tactical Group. For instance,

4 in this way did commander of Tactical Group 1 would

5 have been able to communicate this to the units that

6 were closest to him, and linked to him in terms of

7 communications. And again I don't see that this

8 interferes in any way with the system.

9 Q. Well, if you read the first paragraph, it

10 specifically mentions the order issued by the supreme

11 command, which is what you say. Then it has the word

12 "and the order of the commander of Tactical Group 1".

13 When you look at that, and you look at the heading,

14 which is "Army Supreme Command Headquarters, Tactical

15 Group 1", at least on its face the order purports to be

16 an order on behalf of both of those bodies, doesn't it,

17 namely, the supreme command and Tactical Group 1?

18 A. The supreme command issues a general order

19 which is binding for all subordinate command. And it

20 may be transmitted, but without losing its original

21 purpose.

22 Q. But --

23 A. Based on the local commanders needs.

24 Q. But it's the supreme command and the Tactical

25 Group commander, the point I am putting to you is that

1 it's an order issued by both of them, isn't it? I am

2 not suggesting that the Tactical Group is higher in

3 authority. I am simply saying that it's an order

4 issued by both.

5 A. Nobody can say that it doesn't state "order"

6 here. This is an order. But it would have been better

7 to have put "transmits an order", and that would have

8 been the usual way, again. The superior orders are

9 being transmitted, regularly speaking, without changing

10 its essence.

11 Q. And I think again you would agree with me

12 that there's nothing in this order to suggest that the

13 Tactical Group commander is carrying out any extra or

14 special duties outside those already tasked to him?

15 A simple yes or no answer will be sufficient.

16 A. Yes (as translated).

17 Q. Now, when we looked finally at the last

18 document that I asked the registrar to get for me

19 145-A 6-10 1, and can you put that on the screen for

20 me, please. Now this is a document that I think you

21 are quite familiar with.

22 JUDGE JAN: What is his answer to his last

23 question?

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE JAN: What was his answer to his last

1 question?

2 MR. NIEMANN: I thought it was yes, Your

3 Honour.

4 THE WITNESS: No.

5 MR. NIEMANN:

6 Q. I'm sorry, did you say yes or no to the last

7 question?

8 A. No.

9 JUDGE JAN: That's what I heard. The

10 transcript says yes.

11 MR. NIEMANN: The transcript says yes.

12 JUDGE JAN: Please check up yourself.

13 MR. NIEMANN:

14 Q. Can you please tell me where in that

15 document, not the one I have just given to you, but the

16 previous document, where does it indicate that the

17 tactical group commander is, in fact, carrying out a

18 special or extra function, if your answer was no?

19 A. Could you repeat once more?

20 Q. Okay. The question I asked you in relation

21 to the last document that was given to you, which is,

22 you better make sure we have the right one.

23 D-145-A5D-42 1. The previous document and let me

24 explain. The document that was addressed to the

25 commander of the Celebici prison, Zdravko Mucic, were

1 you able to read that document?

2 A. I think I was just given it.

3 Q. There's nothing in that document to suggest

4 that the tactical group commander was carrying out a

5 special or extra task above that ordinarily assigned to

6 it. There's nothing in there to suggest that?

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: I believe this question has

8 already been answered.

9 MR. NIEMANN: Well, could you answer the

10 question, there's been confusion. What is your answer

11 to the question?

12 A. What the order states are not the

13 authorities, the usual authorities of a TG commander.

14 There was a lot of whole lot of examples in practice

15 that commanders transmitted certain orders from a

16 higher to lower level regardless of their authority.

17 Prisons were not under authority of any commander,

18 therefore, a commander could never write this and state

19 that was his authority because it was not.

20 Q. There's nothing on the document, though, that

21 describes that, that is only something you're importing

22 into it because of something you say you know?

23 A. I also know that since this was August while

24 Mr. Delalic was with me, that he worked pursuant to the

25 orders he was given. He never went away and he was

1 also bound by the orders given to them. And he was

2 implementing them. And anyway, we were together on a

3 daily basis.

4 Q. Now the last document that's presently on the

5 ELMO, which is something that's addressed to you, the

6 paragraph that starts, "the main person," which I take

7 it is you, clearly indicates that this is something

8 which is extra to your regular duties, doesn't it?

9 Because it says, "will form this duty together with his

10 regular duties." Quite distinct and different, is it

11 not, from the two previous documents that you looked

12 at?

13 A. The content is different, but the essence is

14 not. I told you, the example before, when I was chief

15 of staff, I still went to perform the task and I was

16 not given a document to do so, but in reality, I did

17 perform such tasks.

18 Q. I think you said a moment ago that, that you

19 were with Mr. Delalic all the time, from the beginning

20 of August until the end of November, did you say that?

21 A. Yes. We would either communicate through

22 communication links or we were physically together

23 because he was a member of temporary command.

24 Q. Were you present when Mr. Delalic met with

25 members of the Red Cross about Celebici?

1 A. No. I am not familiar with that.

2 Q. Were you present when Mr. Delalic gave

3 interviews about Celebici?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Were you present when Mr. Delalic

6 communicated with the supreme command about Celebici?

7 A. No.

8 Q. So there's a number of things that you didn't

9 know related to Mr. Delalic about Celebici, that's

10 right, isn't it?

11 A. This concerns Celebici, I know he had nothing

12 to do with it during the period that we were together.

13 Q. Now, I have asked you to look at this

14 document that I show you and it's a document that is

15 also shown to you in the course of evidence-in-chief.

16 And I have, Your Honours, made a copy of this, even

17 though it is an exhibit. It is, for the record, Your

18 Honours, Defence Exhibit D-77-1. Just looking at this

19 document, where it appoints you as chief of staff and

20 deputy commander of JUG south, '92, did you have any

21 authority over any of the troops in TG-1 by this

22 command or appointment?

23 A. It seems I was a given a wrong order, this

24 one tells of the formation of the command JUG without

25 names being stated. I believe I would need a different

1 order.

2 Q. I do apologise if I gave the wrong one.

3 THE REGISTRAR: I gave the document D-77/1.

4 So, if you want, I --

5 MR. NIEMANN: I may have made a mistake and,

6 if I have, I apologise. I can give you the Defence

7 version of the document, which may be easier, I'm

8 sorry. The document is D-145-A 6-91. Perhaps you

9 might just pass it by me on the way through, so that I

10 can just check. Now could the English version be put

11 on the overhead projector? My question is, did you

12 have authority over any of the troops in TG-1?

13 A. No, as a chief of staff. It was an exclusive

14 right of a commander.

15 Q. Would you have been Mr. Delalic's commander?

16 A. No, I was chief of staff in the temporary

17 command and the commander to Mr. Delalic was Mr.

18 Najetovic.

19 Q. Did any of the troops from any of the TOs,

20 which were not part of the tactical groups, participate

21 in this JUG '92 exercise?

22 A. Operation JUG hosted several units from

23 various district and municipal headquarters of the TO.

24 Q. And who would have they been subordinated to

25 for the purposes of the temporary command?

1 A. Temporary command was established precisely

2 for that, for it to be able to command to all the

3 troops which came to conduct a specific task, namely

4 the lifting of the siege of Sarajevo.

5 Q. So those troops and their commanders would

6 have been subordinated to this command for that

7 temporary purpose?

8 A. For that purpose, yes. And that was the

9 reason for formation of that command, to unify combat

10 activities of TG-1 and TG-2 and a part of TG-1 and TG-2

11 were various units. From all the areas of

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina that were, that we had open links,

13 transportation links with.

14 Q. Do you know how many troops, approximately,

15 participated in JUG '92?

16 A. Do you mean the number of soldiers or units?

17 Q. The number of soldiers.

18 A. I may miss for a hundred or two, but I

19 believe around 5,000 soldiers were engaged in lifting

20 the siege of Sarajevo, including the home units which

21 were there all the time as the defence of the city. In

22 two areas, the ancillary and the main one.

23 Q. Now, during the JUG '92 exercise, did the

24 supreme command in Sarajevo sometimes use Mr. Delalic

25 to transmit information and orders to you?

1 A. I am not familiar with that.

2 Q. Or conversely, did you ever use facilities

3 provided by Mr. Delalic to transmit orders to the

4 supreme command in Sarajevo?

5 A. I have stated a while ago, we had telephoned

6 a fax links with the staff in Sarajevo, these were open

7 links, insecure, but nevertheless, we used them in

8 emergencies and there was no need to use mediators for

9 transmitting in that way.

10 Q. This order of the order of the people

11 mentioned in this appointment, 1 through to 12, do you

12 see that? The first, Mr. Najetovic, who is the

13 commander in chief and then there's yourself and then

14 there is Mr. Delalic and so on. These names are

15 expressed in order of seniority, aren't they?

16 A. We have stated a while ago that duties of

17 logistics were 70 per cent in all the armies of the

18 world, so even in your army, this was an exceptionally

19 important segment and the duties of logistics were

20 performed by both civilians and militaries, depending

21 on who was able to provide more equipment and through

22 which channels.

23 Q. So Mr. Delalic was the third most senior

24 person among those group of persons mentioned there?

25 A. He is in the third place on the list. But

1 that does not mean concerning military subordination

2 and hierarchy, he is there, there are more important

3 people and functions than his. But as to specific

4 needs we had, it was important to us to secure as much

5 technical equipment and material as possible. This is

6 just a name of a person, but this chain consisted of

7 many people of several levels and duties.

8 Q. Would you look at this document that I now

9 show you and I hope this time I have the number right,

10 D81-1. And could, Madam Registrar, would you please

11 just check it and see that I haven't confused the

12 numbers. I do apologise. I think you explained in

13 your evidence that your appointment here to perform the

14 role of coordinating TG-1 and TG-2 was a temporary

15 arrangement?

16 A. This was not an appointment of a

17 coordinator. Here, me and Mr. Najetovic, were

18 appointed to perform coordination as experts in

19 military science between two TGs.

20 Q. So the coordination role that you had to

21 perform, if I can call it that, was a military role?

22 A. Yes, because we are talking about units

23 here. Units were stated, TG-1 and TG-2, so it is a

24 military coordination.

25 Q. And in order to affect effective

1 coordination, you would have had to have the authority

2 to issue orders?

3 A. No. We did exactly that and you can see that

4 from the way -- the order of release of orders, we came

5 to the conclusion that the coordination between the two

6 groups was a very difficult one and we suggested to our

7 command that we should establish temporary command,

8 which would have the authority that you are talking

9 about. So we could not command, we assessed the

10 situation and concluded that it would be better to have

11 a temporary command which would also have authority of

12 control and command.

13 Q. Now you said in your evidence that after the

14 command of JUG was set up, prior appointments remained

15 in effect?

16 A. Previous appointments did not change the

17 commanders of TG-1 and TG-2.

18 Q. Well, did your role as a coordination role,

19 if I can call it that, continue on after the

20 establishment of JUG, as was appointed by this document

21 of August, '92?

22 A. We did not retain the role of coordination,

23 we had the specific duties, according to the list, as

24 specified through numbers 1 through 12.

25 Q. Was there an order annulling your prior

1 appointment as coordinator or coordination role?

2 A. As soon as we received another appointment,

3 the old order is automatically being annulled.

4 Q. It just happens, does it?

5 A. This does not happen accidentally, it happens

6 according to military principles.

7 Q. Now, just looking at document D-68, that's

8 Exhibit 145A 6-81.

9 JUDGE JAN: Put the English version on the

10 ELMO.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

12 MR. NIEMANN:

13 Q. Now this document does not state what units

14 are to be part of Operation JUG, does it?

15 A. No, those units are not stated, that's

16 correct.

17 Q. Indeed, it says that the organisational and

18 functional structure of the units, which falls under

19 the structure of command group south, and I am looking

20 at paragraph 2, will establish the command group

21 south. What does that mean?

22 A. Yes. This means that once we assessed the

23 need for formation of a temporary group, that a

24 commander of the temporary group, based on the

25 assessments, come to decisions to engage in the main

1 area of activity and to appoint those forces to be used

2 in that area, as well as the ancillary area. Because

3 at Igman at that time we had units from several

4 municipal headquarters, Prozor, Vakuf, Visoko, Zenica,

5 et cetera.

6 Q. Someone receiving this order wouldn't have a

7 clue, would they, of what actual units were going to be

8 part of the JUG operation?

9 A. Nobody else should receive it except for the

10 command of JUG. They have to independently decide

11 which units to include and at which zone, which area to

12 employ them. And in connection to that, there's an

13 order to be written and a decision to be made. And

14 this is a process.

15 Q. Is this a bad order?

16 A. An order can be bad, complete, incomplete, it

17 can have lack of logic. This was a directional order

18 to us. Even if it contained more information, it

19 wouldn't do any harm, but still what important was, was

20 that we could continue our work with this order using

21 it as a basis.

22 Q. So the result of all that is that JUG '92

23 could decide what units were to be part of the JUG

24 operation itself?

25 A. Yes. But we consulted our superior command

1 and we had to transmit reports to it which we did.

2 Q. And that, by definition, could also include

3 units which were not part of TG-1 and TG-2?

4 A. Yes, this includes also units which were not

5 part of TG-1 and 2. We included all the units into

6 combat activities that were in that area at the time.

7 Q. In July, 1992, were you appointed commander

8 of tactical group, Visoko?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. By that position, it's a fact, isn't it, that

11 you had authority of the municipal Territorial Defence

12 headquarters of Visoko, Breza, Ilijas and Vares?

13 A. I didn't have authority over the municipal

14 staffs. They had their own district staffs. And I

15 believe that this should be clear by now. The

16 municipal commands of the municipal staffs could never

17 be subordinate to us. But parts of the units of these

18 municipal staffs, which was used for specific tasks,

19 yes.

20 Q. Well, what were your responsibilities and

21 duties in that position?

22 A. I explained it partially, but I can do it

23 again. The free units, the unengaged units, that is,

24 who were not directly involved in the defence from the

25 municipal staffs of Visoko, Breza and Vares, were set

1 aside for special tasks of offensive combat functions.

2 And we were exclusively involved in preparations for --

3 involved in the preparations of these offensive tasks

4 with these free or unengaged units from the municipal

5 staffs.

6 Q. You told us a moment ago that during

7 operation JUG, there was approximately 5,000 soldiers

8 engaged in the attempt to lift the siege of Sarajevo.

9 Are you able to tell us approximately how many soldiers

10 were part of Tactical Group 1 during the course of that

11 operation?

12 A. Not the exact number, but it could not have

13 exceeded 800 to 1,000 soldiers, but I don't know the

14 exact number. Because, again, this was one of these

15 ancillary areas and the military experts know that for

16 such areas, much less numerous forces are usually set

17 aside.

18 MR. NIEMANN: Those are my questions.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any more questions in

20 the re-examination of this witness?

21 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic

22 Q. Just in order to clarify something, may the

23 witness again be shown the documents D145, annex V or 5

24 -- D through /41 and /42, pages 813 and 818.

25 Brigadier, do you have the pertinent

1 documents?

2 A. I do not have the Bosnian version of one of

3 the documents from 20th -- 28th of August.

4 Q. You have the 24 of August. May the Brigadier

5 be shown both the documents from 28 August and 24

6 August in Bosnian, please.

7 A. I received one, but not the other one.

8 Q. I need it for my questioning. May I offer my

9 own copy in order to expedite this matter?

10 Brigadier, would you please look at the

11 document of 24 August 1992 first. Can you please tell

12 me whether the number of this document for which you

13 explained that this was a transmission of an order by

14 the supreme command, and it says 02/349-51?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Does it also state in this document that it

17 is an order?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I would now like to ask you again, Brigadier,

20 on the basis of your explanation that this was a

21 transmission of an order from the supreme command,

22 which is amply clear from the preamble, to now look at

23 the document from the 28th of August 1992. Do you have

24 that document in front of you?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. In the preamble of this document is -- it's

2 midway through the body of text of the paragraph 1

3 -- part of the order which implied that it was a

4 transmission.

5 A. Yes, it is repeated.

6 Q. Is it then amply clear, Brigadier, that these

7 are two orders that are just transmissions of the

8 orders of the supreme command?

9 A. Yes, but that is what I explained.

10 Q. Yes, but there was something unclear, whether

11 this was an order of a commander of the Tactical Group

12 or not. I think that now this clarifies this

13 sufficiently. And just one additional clarification.

14 May the witness be shown the document D143, annex 3 7,

15 which is page 295, which is in volume 1 of the military

16 expert's report.

17 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, does this arise

18 out of my cross-examination?

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, that's --

20 (Interrupted by translation).

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, exactly. I did not go

22 into that area of questioning.

23 Q. Brigadier, this is the popular gazette of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina number 1. Is that the document you

25 have in front of you?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. At the bottom of the page there is a

3 provision. Do you see it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In paragraph 2 of this provision, can you

6 please read this paragraph and tell me whether this

7 provision gives the authority to command and control to

8 the Ministry of Defence?

9 A. Article 2?

10 Q. No, paragraph 2.

11 A. Oh, paragraph 2. Ministry of Peoples Defence

12 of Bosnia-Herzegovina through the staff of Territorial

13 Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina controls and commands

14 with formations of the Territorial Defence.

15 Q. Thank you. My question is whether this is

16 the provision which you mentioned which has given

17 authority to the civilian body to become involved in

18 the military affairs?

19 A. Yes, I did explain this previously. This is

20 exclusively responsibilities of any authority of the

21 Ministry of the Defence with respect to command and

22 control, and this authority only exists -- also exists

23 at the level of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24 And I believe that Their Honours did understand that

25 and they even assisted us in this.

1 Q. Thank you, Brigadier. I think we have

2 clarified these two points, and I have no further

3 questions.

4 A. Your welcome.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much for

6 your efforts and strength in withstanding some gruesome

7 cross-examination. Thank you for your assistance. You

8 are discharged now.

9 THE WITNESS: Thank you for hearing me out.

10 (The witness withdrew)

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Would you kindly call

12 your next witness, please.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honours, I am

14 prepared to do that right away. However, during the

15 cross-examination of the learned colleague Niemann's

16 cross-examination there was a mistake, and I would like

17 to rectify that mistake. It has to do with wartime

18 formations and not wartime presidency. Thank you.

19 Your Honours, am I correct in understanding

20 that an official correction of the translation of this

21 document is going to be requested?

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think the translations

23 are official, the translations already. So will be

24 official. It's your problem.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: I was following the practice

1 used by the Prosecutor this morning by giving a

2 certified change on the basis of Judge Jan's question,

3 so that any discrepancy between the official transcript

4 and the submitted documents can be made official.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If there is an improper

6 interpretation, translation, it will be entered in the

7 records and it will be accepted as such.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Can

9 I just indulge you for a minute in order to get set up

10 for the next examination.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly swear the

12 witness, please.

13 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

15 truth.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: I need just a couple of

17 minutes just to sort out my documents and find my notes

18 with questions of this witness.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Proceed, Ms. Residovic.

20 Examined by Ms. Residovic

21 WITNESS: MUSTAFA POLUTAK

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

23 Good afternoon, sir.

24 A. Good afternoon.

25 Q. I would first like to request -- ask you to

1 introduce yourself by stating your full name.

2 A. I am Mustafa Polutak.

3 Q. I would also like to ask the registry that

4 the map of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Exhibit number 4, be

5 placed on the easel during the intermission, because I

6 will ask several questions which will require that

7 witness point to particular places on the map.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You mean you'll take us

9 around the mountains of Konjic? Because I don't think

10 that will be necessary. We've had enough of that.

11 (inaudible). So I don't know why you think he should

12 give more here.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: I know that this witness will

14 testify only to what he personally knows, but if it

15 helps the Defence and or getting to the truth of this

16 matter, I may use it. I may use a map in that

17 process.

18 Q. Mr. Polutak, will you please tell the Court

19 where and when you were born?

20 A. I was born in Gorazde, in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

21 on 1 January, 1946 in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22 Q. Mr. Polutak, will you tell me what is your

23 citizenship and your ethnic group?

24 A. I am citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina and I am a

25 Bosniak Muslim.

1 Q. Where do you reside currently?

2 A. I currently reside in Sarajevo, Trampina

3 Street, number 6.

4 Q. What is your education, where did you receive

5 it, and what is your profession, Mr. Polutak?

6 A. I completed the elementary and secondary

7 school in Gorazde; military academy for ground forces

8 in Belgrade; command staff academy also in Belgrade.

9 Q. Mr. Polutak, what is your rank now?

10 A. I am currently Brigadier General in the Army

11 of Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12 Q. General, can you tell the Court where you

13 were on 6 April 1992, when the aggression against

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina started?

15 A. On 6 April, I was in Kiseljak near Sarajevo.

16 Q. What were your duties in Kiseljak?

17 A. You mean before the war?

18 Q. Yes, before the war.

19 A. I was commander of an artillery regiment.

20 Q. What was your rank in the former JNA?

21 A. The last rank I held was Lieutenant-Colonel.

22 Q. General, did you at some point in 1992 join

23 the defence forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina by leaving the

24 former JNA?

25 A. Yes. This was on 7 April, 1992.

1 Q. The Court is aware of a number of facts of

2 what the authorities did at the outbreak of war.

3 Mr. Polutak, do you know that the government bodies

4 immediately took steps to establish armed forces?

5 A. Yes, I know that as soon as the independence

6 was proclaimed, new legislation was adopted. I believe

7 that on 8 April the defence forces were proclaimed,

8 armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I believe that as

9 early as 10 April instructions on the use of defence

10 forces were issued; that on 15 April all armed forces,

11 with the exception of the MUP and HVO, were placed

12 under the command of Territorial Defence, and so on and

13 so forth.

14 Q. General, given that the day after the

15 aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina you joined the

16 Territorial Defence, can you tell this Court what your

17 first military tasks were in April of 1992, and in

18 which area were you?

19 A. My first tasks were to organise and lead the

20 Territorial Defence in central Bosnia, or, more

21 specifically, in the area of Kiseljak, Kresevo, Fojnica

22 and Busovaca.

23 Q. General, do you know whether at some point in

24 1992 the supreme command staff, which at that time was

25 called the TO staff of BiH, established Tactical Group

1 1?

2 A. Yes, I know that. I believe this happened on

3 12 May, that the Tactical Group 1 was established.

4 Q. Do you know who was the first commander of

5 Tactical Group 1?

6 A. I was commander of the Tactical Group 1.

7 Q. What was the task of the Tactical Group which

8 you led initially?

9 A. The main and only task of this Tactical Group

10 was lifting of the siege of Sarajevo.

11 Q. General, can you tell me what was the area of

12 its operation during that period?

13 A. The main area of operations of Tactical Group

14 1 was Posaric (phoen) Ilidza, Hadzici, and the other

15 one was Igman, Krupac, Lukovica.

16 Q. Who was your chief of staff at that time?

17 A. My chief of staff throughout my duty as

18 commander of Tactical Group 1 was Sucro Pilica.

19 Q. Was Mr. Pilica also a professional soldier?

20 A. Yes, he was also a professional soldier.

21 Q. Many witnesses testified before this Tribunal

22 about the command of the Tactical Group. As commander

23 of this Tactical Group, can you please say what was the

24 size of the Tactical Group 1 command?

25 A. Tactical Group command was small. While I

1 was on that duty, it had seven members, seven persons,

2 commander, chief of staff, operations or executive

3 officer, a logistics officer, security officer, chief

4 officer, and communications person and a typist. This

5 was the staff of the Tactical Group command while I was

6 there, and also later.

7 Q. Was the Tactical Group command, apart from

8 the staff, also staffed with other bodies, such as

9 reconnaissance body, security body and so on?

10 A. No. I said that it numbered seven persons,

11 and I enumerated these persons. All the intelligence

12 affairs was led by one person obviously relying on

13 intelligence from persons from other units.

14 Q. General, who was authorised and who

15 determined which formations would be subordinate to the

16 Tactical Group command?

17 A. This was a process that evolved in about four

18 stages. As commander of the Tactical Group, with the

19 members of my command, would visit the Territorial

20 Defence staffs, and with commanders of these TO staffs,

21 would determine what the capabilities were and what

22 forces could be set aside for the Tactical Group. Then

23 I would report to the supreme command about -- that

24 this would be followed by an order about setting aside

25 of particular forces for the Tactical Group 1.

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we'll have the

2 break now and reassemble at 4.30.

3 --- Proceedings adjourned at 4:00 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 4.34 p.m.

5 (The witness entered court)

6 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

7 are still under oath.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, Ms.

9 Residovic.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

11 Q. General, before the break you began

12 explaining to us how and in which way the formation of

13 the Tactical Group was done, could you please repeat

14 that sentence and continue with your explanation?

15 A. I have said that after we received an order

16 from the staff of superior command about the units to

17 be taken from municipal staffs and to TG-1, we

18 approached planning of combat activities. After that,

19 in the direct preparation of our units to perform those

20 tasks, when we determined the preparation of those

21 units, we would approach the actual combat activities.

22 Concerning the --

23 Q. Excuse me, General, there is a mistake in the

24 transcript. I would not -- I do not know how to

25 explain because my English language isn't sufficient,

1 but I have an objection towards the wording of the

2 superior command, supreme command. So, general, can

3 you go through the phrases again, because I cannot

4 understand which term was not correct.

5 JUDGE JAN: (microphone not on) Is it

6 important, really?

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: All he said was the

8 procedure he went through in determining to plan to

9 have a combat. That's all he said. He didn't say

10 anything --

11 JUDGE JAN: (microphone not on) orders for

12 superior command and in persons thereof, he started

13 setting up TG-1 group. That's what you said.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly, you repeat what

15 you said for now. It's not too much to get it,

16 kindly.

17 JUDGE JAN: (microphone not on) what I

18 gather, you said that you received an order from the

19 supreme command and that the persons thereof, you

20 started setting up the TG-1 group, or did you say

21 anything else?

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, let he him repeat

23 himself.

24 THE WITNESS: (No translation).

25 JUDGE JAN: I don't have the translation.

1 THE WITNESS: After we have received the

2 order from the supreme command of the decision of which

3 units are to be taken from the municipal staff units,

4 we proceeded then with planning of combat activities.

5 JUDGE JAN: Proceed further.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC:

7 Q. Please continue.

8 A. I repeat, after we have received an order

9 from the supreme command, the Tactical Group then

10 proceeded with planning of combat activities and the

11 units which were subordinated to it would proceed with

12 direct preparations for those combat tasks.

13 When we would determine that the units are

14 sufficiently ready, we would then report that to the

15 supreme command and upon their approval, we would

16 proceed with the combat activity itself.

17 After the activity, units would then return

18 to their home units, therefore, they would go outside

19 the Tactical Group 1, so this would complete the circle

20 of one combat operation.

21 Q. General, since during earlier testimonies of

22 witnesses, the Chamber wanted particularly an answer to

23 the question of in which way those units were gathered,

24 the units which were then put under the authority of

25 Tactical Group, you have explained that, but for

1 further clarification, after the consultations with

2 municipal staffs and determining on what type of units

3 and how many those had at their disposal and notified

4 the supreme command, who then would specifically issue

5 an order as to which units are to be subordinated to

6 your Tactical Group?

7 A. Specific orders were given by the supreme

8 command to municipal staffs and the commanders of

9 municipal staffs would then issue their order for the

10 units that they were supposed to hand over to Tactical

11 Groups.

12 Q. You have given a short, a brief explanation

13 of the entire process, but for all of us who are not

14 military experts, could you clarify, units or parts of

15 units, which under such orders were subordinate to or

16 were those units under your command permanently?

17 A. No. I have said, after the closure of the

18 combat operation, those units would immediately be

19 returned to their home units under the command of

20 municipal staffs.

21 Q. General, during the time that you were a

22 commander, what was the largest number of people under

23 your command and did you always have the planned

24 subordinated units under your command?

25 A. The maximum number of soldiers was up to

1 1500. It never once happened that the planned number

2 of soldiers was also under my direct subordination. We

3 never met the planned number. That happened because of

4 the change of situations in the field, in the zones of

5 municipalities, which were constantly changing, so it

6 would happen that certain municipal staffs at a given

7 moment could not send the number of soldiers as was

8 planned.

9 Q. General, did TG-1, whilst you were its

10 commander, in implementing its combat tasks, did it

11 undergo larger, more extensive operations or did you

12 also have small scale operations?

13 A. The name itself of Tactical Group speaks for

14 itself. These are small scale operations. Having in

15 mind the number that I have mentioned, in our case it

16 was up to 1500 people, we were able to conduct only

17 smaller operations.

18 Q. What authority did you as a commander of TG-1

19 have over combat units and other formations of

20 Territorial Defence in the area of municipal staffs,

21 that is, units which were not your subordinated units

22 during those operations?

23 A. As a commander of a Tactical Group, I

24 commanded only over the units which were subordinate to

25 me. In relation to other units and staffs, municipal

1 staffs, I had no authority over them and no command

2 either.

3 Q. Under whose command were or, that is,

4 remained the remnant of units which were not

5 subordinated to you?

6 A. They would remain under the command of

7 municipal staffs.

8 Q. You have said a while ago, you have mentioned

9 one part of your area, combat area, within your zone of

10 operation from where you could use this subordinated

11 units, did the municipality of Konjic and Jablanica

12 enter that zone, whether within it?

13 A. Yes, the municipal staff of Konjic and

14 Jablanica had an obligation to hand over part of their

15 units to Tactical Group 1 for the purpose of lifting of

16 siege of Sarajevo.

17 Q. Can you tell us which was a superior staff to

18 the staff, municipal staff of Hadzici, which was within

19 your zone of activity?

20 A. To the municipal staff of Hadzici, superior

21 staff was the district staff of Sarajevo.

22 Q. Can you, in your experience of a commander,

23 tell us which were the superior staffs over the

24 municipal staffs of Jablanica and Konjic?

25 A. Over the municipal staff of Jablanica and

1 Konjic, the superior staff was the one of the supreme

2 command. Because, at that moment, we had a district

3 staff of Mostar, which was not functioning.

4 Q. As you have already said, in a period of

5 time, Prozor was also obliged to set aside a part of

6 its units, can you tell us which was the staff that was

7 superior to the municipal staff?

8 A. The municipal staff of Prozor was the one in

9 Zenica, the superior staff in Zenica.

10 Q. General, can you tell me, did you, as a

11 commander of TG-1, within the period, whilst you were a

12 commander of it, did you have any authority over

13 institutions which were within the zone of operations

14 that you were in, or i.e. -- I mean the schools,

15 hospitals, prison facilities, et cetera?

16 A. No, I had no authority over such

17 institutions. I repeat, Tactical Group is exclusively

18 a combat group and we perform such, only combat tasks

19 with it. For a brief period of time, I prepared,

20 organised and conducted three operations and can tell

21 you by itself that I had no time to deal with any other

22 business or responsibility.

23 Q. General, although this is a somewhat of a

24 more extensive explanation of your duties, can you tell

25 us in brief which were the attempts of deblocking

1 during your command, the lifting up of blockades?

2 A. The first attempt to lift a siege of

3 Sarajevo, together with other units participating in it

4 was at the end of May, between the 20th and the 28th of

5 May. In that attempt, we had units from Kiseljak,

6 Hadzici and Fojnica.

7 The second attempt was in June, between the

8 12th and the 20th. In that attempt, there were units

9 of municipal staffs of Hadzici, Konjic, Jablanica and

10 Prozor. And the third attempt began at the beginning

11 of July between the 5th and the 15th when we had units

12 of Hadzici, Trnovo and Kiseljak municipal staffs, or

13 rather, parts of their units to be more specific.

14 Q. Do you mean parts of municipal staff as a

15 body or parts of the units that they command over?

16 A. In any case, I mean parts of units within

17 these municipal staffs.

18 Q. General, maybe your brief testimony would

19 give us a clear picture of all the activities conducted

20 by you, but having in mind the interest of defence in

21 this proceeding, I would be free to ask more direct

22 questions of you connected to our subjected issue.

23 Whilst you were a commander of Tactical Group and if

24 the institutions were not, generally speaking, under

25 your authority, was there any period of time that a

1 prison facility was under your command?

2 A. No. Never any single prison was under my

3 command.

4 Q. General, did ever a guard in any prison that

5 allegedly existed within the zone of activity of your

6 Tactical Group was subordinate to you as a commander of

7 a Tactical Group?

8 A. No. Tactical Group, within its composition

9 did not have such personnel.

10 Q. General, the members of military

11 investigative commissions from a certain municipal area

12 that you used to get subordinated units, were there

13 ever, during your command, a part of your Tactical

14 Group or its subordinate?

15 A. No, I had no contact with members of any type

16 of commissions.

17 Q. General, until when did you remain as a

18 commander of TG-1?

19 A. I remained the commander until the 27th of

20 July, 1992.

21 Q. Who replaced you at that duty?

22 A. I was replaced by Zejnil Delalic.

23 Q. Where did you go from that duty? To what

24 duties were you appointed?

25 A. I went to the forward command post in

1 Visoko. I was appointed an officer for operations for

2 the free territory outside of Sarajevo within the

3 supreme command.

4 Q. To my previous question you have answered

5 that facilities, prison facilities, were not under the

6 command of the Tactical Group during your command, and

7 until the end of July you had no authority as a

8 commander over any prison facility or its personnel.

9 But, General, in spite of the fact that you, as a

10 commander of TG-1, did not have that as -- within the

11 framework of your authority, did you still, at the time

12 of your command, personally appoint heads of such

13 prison facilities or any of its personnel?

14 A. I have said that I had no contact with any

15 prisons and I never appointed anybody connected to

16 that.

17 Q. Did you, General, have any knowledge --

18 excuse me. I will change my question.

19 Did you ever appoint Zdravko Mucic to any

20 function?

21 A. I have not appointed anybody, including

22 Zdravko Mucic.

23 Q. I presume, General, that with the exception

24 of Zejnil Delalic, you personally do not know other

25 defendants in this case?

1 A. No. I have seen them for the first time here

2 in the courtroom.

3 Q. It is now completely clear, General, that you

4 did not appoint anybody within any prison facility in

5 your area, that is including Konjic. Can you tell us,

6 although you have never appointed anybody in that

7 matter, did the commander of the Celebici prison, or

8 any other prison within your area, did they ever report

9 to you?

10 A. I have never received such reports, and it

11 was not necessary.

12 Q. Did any municipal staff within your area

13 submit similar reports?

14 A. No. I have said that municipal staffs were

15 not under my command.

16 Q. General, did you, as a commander of TG-1,

17 have the authority to approve of visits of

18 international organisations to prison facilities or

19 other military facilities?

20 A. No. This was not under my authority, and

21 nobody ever approached me with such a request.

22 Q. Do you personally know under whose authority

23 that was?

24 A. I believe this was under the authority of the

25 superior command staff, and that they have the

1 authority over military prisons.

2 Q. A hypothetical question, although I believe

3 we have already had a part of an answer. Had any

4 international organisation ever approached you within

5 your area of authority to visit a military facility,

6 what would have been your reply?

7 A. As a person, as a human being, I would try to

8 meet their requests. I would forward their request to

9 the supreme command staff, and I would direct this

10 organisation to seek help from them.

11 Q. General, you said that as a commander of TG-1

12 you were replaced by Mr. Zejnil Delalic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did Mr. Delalic, at the moment when he took

15 over the command from you, receive higher authority,

16 higher powers, than the ones you had and the ones that

17 you have just explained to us?

18 A. No.

19 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone turned off) How can

20 he say about that? What authority Mr. Zejnil Delalic

21 received, how can he say about it?

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please be fair to him.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: He turned over his duties to

24 Mr. Delalic, so he knows what he turned over.

25 JUDGE JAN: How does he know? He's gone

1 forward.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How would he know under

3 the circumstances under which the change came? It was

4 not his transition--

5 THE WITNESS: If I may, Your Honours, just

6 say.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.

8 A. Given that I transferred from that duty to

9 the supreme command staff, that I was an operations

10 officer in that staff, I continued to have knowledge of

11 the authority of Tactical Group 1. Its mission

12 remained unchanged. And that's why I can say that the

13 responsibilities of Tactical Group 1 remained the same

14 after my departure, which means that Zejnil Delalic

15 could not have had larger responsibilities or authority

16 than I did.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC:

19 Q. General, at the time when you were commander,

20 was the area of your operations split up and another

21 Tactical Group established?

22 A. Yes. At the beginning I said that a Tactical

23 Group had -- that the main area, Hadzici, Pazaric,

24 Ilidza, and the other one, which was Lukovica, Krupac.

25 Midway through July, Tactical Group 2 was established,

1 which was put in charge of the area, Igman, Krupac,

2 Lukovica, and Tactical Group 1 retained the area

3 Pazaric, Hadzici, Ilidza.

4 Q. Thank you. General, you just answered my

5 following question, which clarified how you now what

6 Mr. Delalic's responsibilities were after he took over

7 the command. Can you tell me, in light of this

8 knowledge, did you meet Mr. Delalic in the area of

9 operations at Mount Igman after you transferred to the

10 forward command post in Visoko?

11 A. No, I did not meet Zejnil Delalic after

12 that. I was involved in other areas, predominantly in

13 the Tuzla, Brcko area, and shortly thereafter I had

14 this accident, due to which I was absent from the unit,

15 that is from the command, for the following six

16 months. In other words, I had a very serious traffic

17 accident.

18 Q. General, I will ask you several additional

19 questions regarding your responsibilities and duties,

20 and in light of your knowledge of the supreme command

21 and Zejnil Delalic's role after he took over as

22 commander. And I believe that we will all understand

23 this better if we hear about your experience as

24 commander of the Tactical Group. General, can you tell

25 me whether the supreme command staff could give to the

1 Tactical Group any special order, outside of the main

2 combat task, without interfering with its basic

3 function. Did you have such a case in your practice?

4 A. The supreme command staff is a command which

5 is superior to the Tactical Group 1, in any event. And

6 because of that, it can task Tactical Group with other

7 tasks than its primary combat tasks. And as commander

8 I had a duty to carry out this order.

9 Q. The Court knows that the combat line -- the

10 lines of combat for this Tactical Group 1 is right

11 behind the defence lines of Sarajevo. I want to ask

12 you whether, as a commander of Tactical Group 1, you

13 were in a position to transmit supreme command orders

14 to other units and other commands which the supreme

15 command issued to those staff or those units?

16 A. Yes. I had several -- I was in such

17 situations on several occasions, and I did what I was

18 asked to do.

19 Q. Can you perhaps give us an example of such a

20 transmission of an order? If not, it is not

21 necessary.

22 A. Yes, I can. There is, for example, the 17th

23 Krajina brigade, when it was arriving, the order was

24 transmitted through my command to the brigade that it

25 should go from Pazaric to Gorazde, and I transmitted

1 this order to the commander of the 17th brigade. There

2 were other orders, especially in various cases for

3 securing logistic support to Gorazde, and I transmitted

4 a number of orders relating to that.

5 Q. General, you said that you visited the

6 municipal staffs and that you assessed the situation

7 and identifying the units that may be subordinated to

8 Tactical Groups. Can you tell me, during such visits,

9 as commander of Tactical Group 1, you also visited and

10 had meetings in the municipal staff in Konjic?

11 A. Yes. As with other staffs, I had several

12 such occasions. And again, as I pointed out, I would

13 mainly meet with the municipal staff commander and, if

14 he was absent, it would be the chief of staff of the

15 municipal staff.

16 Q. General, can you remember when was the last

17 meeting which you as commander of the Tactical Group 1

18 attended or had with municipal staff in Konjic?

19 A. This was in the latter part of June -- of

20 July, around July 20, when we started preparations for

21 the operation JUG. Before the beginning of this

22 operation I handed over my duty.

23 Q. If this is a correct date, and I believe that

24 you probably recall it well, July 20, did Zejnil

25 Delalic also attend this meeting in Konjic?

1 A. No. Zejnil Delalic did not attend this

2 meeting. I recall very well that commander of the TO

3 staff in Konjic, Esad Ramic, also did not attend the

4 meeting. He had been wounded. Present or attending

5 were -- Midhat Cerovac, chief of his staff, was present

6 at the meeting.

7 Q. General, you said that you planned certain

8 formations in order to be able to propose to the

9 supreme command so that it would be able to issue

10 orders on this subordination of certain units of the

11 Tactical Group. May the General now be shown the

12 Exhibit 145-6/3. This is page 893 in the third volume

13 of the military expert's report, and I also have

14 additional copies for the court.

15 General, at the request of one of the Defence

16 experts, did you compile this chart?

17 A. Yes, I did compile this chart at the request

18 of the expert witness in order to clarify the entire

19 procedure which was involved in identifying the units

20 to be subordinated to Tactical Groups.

21 Q. General, can you tell me what this chart

22 essentially represents? If you can just clarify this

23 for us a little bit more.

24 A. This chart, essentially, represents a way in

25 which preparations were conducted in order to set aside

1 units from municipal staffs and placing them under the

2 command of Tactical Groups. From this chart you can

3 see that only part of the forces under the municipal

4 staffs are being placed under the command of the

5 Tactical Group, and it is the part which at any given

6 time was able to be set aside, taking into account the

7 level of combat activities in the zones of these

8 municipal staffs.

9 Q. General, I just called you Brigadier, you

10 were a Brigadier while at the time when you compiled

11 this, but you can see on this chart, it does not bear

12 your signature. Can you tell whether you signed a

13 document that is a chart which is similar or identical

14 by contents?

15 A. I recall having signed this chart at the

16 request of the expert who needed it. Later on, looking

17 at the chart and realising and also bearing in mind

18 that the expert witness has changed, I spotted an error

19 in the name of the Tactical Group where it states that

20 Tactical Group 1, Konjic. That name was never used.

21 The proper name was Tactical Group 1. So I got in

22 touch with this witness and I suggested to him to

23 change this, that is to rectify it and to submit it,

24 this amended chart to me for signature. He told me

25 that he could not send me this document to re-sign it

1 because there wasn't enough time. So, this chart is

2 authenticate and it's truthful, even though it has not

3 been signed by me.

4 Q. May I now ask the usher's assistance to mark

5 this document and to provide it to the witness and I

6 have the necessary number of copies for everyone in the

7 courtroom and it is a document in the Bosnian language

8 and it is a document that is identical with the

9 previous one and I hope that that will avoid any

10 problems or confusions.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Defence document D-182/1.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC:

13 Q. General, is this the document which you

14 signed?

15 A. Yes, this is the document that I signed.

16 Q. Since this witness has recognised these

17 documents as the documents which he, himself, has

18 compiled and on the basis of its relevance, I tender it

19 into evidence.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, it's admitted, for

21 that all it's worth.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Very well, Your Honours, so

23 the first document will be admitted under the number

24 that it has already been given me and the next one is

25 going to be the next number.

1 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's correct. The

2 first document is the D-145 A-6, 3/1 and the other one

3 is D-182/1.

4 Q. Thank you. Having reviewed both of these

5 documents, General, is the only difference between the

6 document which has been signed and the one that has not

7 been signed in the word "Konjic", which appeared in the

8 first document. Is that the only difference between

9 the two documents?

10 A. From what I can tell, yes, this is the only

11 difference.

12 Q. General, you said that commanders of

13 municipal staffs were issuing final orders about which

14 units were going to become subordinate to you, can you

15 tell me whether in any of the three attempts to lift

16 the siege of Sarajevo which you mentioned, did a number

17 of, or some units from the municipal staff of Konjic

18 come under your command?

19 A. Yes, in the second attempt I mentioned that

20 units from the municipal staff of Konjic took part.

21 They numbered about 200 men from Konjic, 50 from Prozor

22 and 120 from Jablanica.

23 Q. Do you know who issued the order to place

24 these 200 men from Konjic under your command?

25 A. After receiving the order from the supreme

1 command, who issued this order, it was commander of the

2 municipal staff of Konjic, Mr. Esad Ramic, who placed

3 the matter in my command.

4 Q. Do you know, General, whether at the time

5 when this unit was placed under your command, whether

6 at that moment Zejnil Delalic had any command

7 responsibility in that unit or over that unit?

8 A. No, he had no command function. He had no

9 command duty at that time, that is, at that period of

10 time.

11 Q. Where was the seat of this Tactical Group

12 while you were the commander and do you know where its

13 seat or centre was thereafter?

14 A. It was in Pazaric throughout this period of

15 time when I was the commander and after.

16 Q. You said that when you transferred to the new

17 duty that you were on the 27th of July, you were

18 informed about a transfer to the new duty. Did you

19 before that acquaint it in any way with the fact that

20 you were to be relieved from that duty and that

21 somebody else was going to replace you?

22 A. No. No, before that, I had no information

23 about appointment of another person and about my

24 departure. I know that on the 27th, through

25 communications lines we received this order and the

1 deadline for carrying it out was 29 July. And that I

2 should report on my new duty the following day, that is

3 on 30 July.

4 Q. I would now like to ask for assistance in

5 order to show General, the Exhibit D-145 A 6/4, or

6 pages 8, 9 -- 6, 8, 9, 7, from Volume 3 of the military

7 expert report. Is this a document of 11 June 1992

8 signed by chief of staff of the supreme command, Sefer

9 Halilovic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Again, there's a mistake, it's supposed to be

12 the month of July, not the month of June.

13 JUDGE JAN: But you mentioned June, that's

14 how -- maybe a slip of tongue.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: It may have been my mistake,

16 if I misspoke, I apologise.

17 Q. Sir, did you receive this appointment in

18 1992?

19 A. No, this order I did not receive, nor was

20 this order carried out. I said that there was another

21 order which was dated 27 July where Mr. Delalic took

22 over command from me and I did not see this order, I

23 never saw it and I never had access to it.

24 Q. General, given the proximity to Sarajevo,

25 where you were in 1992, did it happen during that year

1 that certain orders never reached persons to whom they

2 were addressed? That is, that certain later orders

3 reached them before the ones that had been issued

4 before these?

5 A. In the light of poor communications and links

6 with Sarajevo and of the circumstances which is

7 well-known that Sarajevo was under siege, this happened

8 frequently. And this order of 27th I received through

9 our communications lines and it arrived in a written

10 form much later, I don't even know exactly when.

11 Q. And during this oral order, you were supposed

12 to turn over your command in a couple of days. Can you

13 tell me, General, when you actually turn over your duty

14 to Mr. Delalic?

15 A. As I said, it was July 27th or 29, 1992.

16 Q. Thank you. May this document please be

17 returned to the file. Your Honours, I am going to show

18 more documents and we are one minute away from the

19 completing this session.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Show your documents.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: May I ask that the witness

22 now be shown Exhibit D-145 A 6/5, which is page 898,

23 899 and 900.

24 Q. General, I would like to request of you to

25 place the English version on the ELMO. General, this

1 is the document of 27 July, 1992, in front of you, has

2 it also been signed by the chief of staff of supreme

3 command, Mr. Sefer Halilovic? Is this the document in

4 front of you?

5 A. Yes, this is a document signed by the chief

6 of staff of the supreme command which is now, which was

7 renamed main staff, Mr. Sefer Halilovic.

8 Q. Is the date of the issue of this document the

9 same with the oral order whereby you were asked to turn

10 over your duties to Mr. Zejnil Delalic?

11 A. Yes, it is identical.

12 Q. General, on several occasions we discussed

13 the first paragraph of this appointment in which Mr.

14 Zejnil Delalic, who was appointed commander of all

15 armed forces, before this Tribunal you told us that you

16 just turn over the duties and responsibilities which

17 you had, can you tell me whether you know if Zejnil

18 Delalic was ever commander of all armed forces? All

19 formations of the armed forces.

20 A. Yes, it is true that I turned over to Zejnil

21 Delalic only Tactical Group 1, that is all the

22 responsibilities and authorities that only Tactical

23 Group 1 had. For me, this paragraph, as a soldier, for

24 me, this paragraph 1 is rather illogical or, how shall

25 I put it? Vague. According to our military practice,

1 in order for an order to be able to be carried out, it

2 has to be very specific and clear. In this paragraph

3 1, you can see that it is not that. All formations,

4 all forces in this area, from Dreznica, through

5 Jablanica, Hadzici, Igman, Pazaric are very vague and

6 unimplementable. I can go on. Even the person signing

7 this document, the chief of the main staff, Sefer

8 Halilovic, was not commander of all forces in the area

9 in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, nor in this

10 particular area. Because now we know that in this area

11 the HVO had its formations, which were never under the

12 command of the main staff of the armed forces of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14 There were also combat formations and units

15 of the MUP which were also not under the command of the

16 main staff of armed forces. So, this very paragraph 1,

17 the way it is written could not have been implemented.

18 That is, Zejnil Delalic, in this situation, even if he

19 wanted to, could not have been commander of all

20 formations in this area. It is my opinion that

21 somebody who did not, someone who did not have military

22 training may have been responsible for writing of

23 this. It's my opinion.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, General.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's all you have for

1 him today? Okay. We will continue with this witness

2 tomorrow, 10.00 a.m.. The Trial Chamber will now

3 rise.

4 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at 5.35 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 4th day

6 of June, 1998.

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25