1 (The witness entered court)

2 --- Upon commencing at 10.08 a.m.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and

4 gentlemen. Could we have the appearances, please.

5 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, please, my name

6 is Niemann,. I appear with my colleagues, Ms. McHenry

7 and Mr. Huber for the Prosecution, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have the

9 appearances for the Defence, please.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours,

11 my name is Edina Residovic, I am counsel for Mr.

12 Delalic. My Co-counsel is Eugene O'Sullivan, professor

13 from Canada. Thank you.

14 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, Your Honours. My

15 name is Mr. Olujic and I am Counsel for Zdravko Mucic

16 and together here with me today is Niko Djuric, an

17 attorney from Croatia.

18 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

19 My Name is Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo. I

20 am here as a counsel to Hazim Delic.

21 MS. BOLER: Good morning, Your Honours. My

22 name is Nancy Boler. I represent Esad Landzo I am from

23 Houston, Texas. My colleague, Cynthia McMurrey is

24 working on a defence matter and she will be here later

25 this morning.

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

2 Ms. Residovic, I think you are still with your

3 witness.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed.

5 Examined by Ms. Residovic:

6 Q. Good morning, Mr. Milic.

7 A. Good morning.

8 Q. I hope you had time to rest over the weekend

9 and I hope that I need not to report the notice I told

10 you on Friday. This is also valid today. But

11 nevertheless, to repeat, would you please wait for the

12 end of the interpretation then answer.

13 A. Yes, it is clear.

14 Q. Mr. Milic, you remember that on Friday, we

15 concluded our conversation by your answer, which was

16 that basis for your inspiration to work on the footage

17 in question from one hand was due to a well

18 orchestrated and efficient campaign in the Croatian

19 media. And, on the other hand, certain facts that you

20 were given from various sources, which gave you basis

21 to start with a counter campaign. Do you remember?

22 A. Yes, this was so.

23 Q. I will continue in the same direction with my

24 questions. To one of my questions you partially

25 confirmed. I would nevertheless like to have that

1 clarified further. Did you, Mr. Milic, in any

2 personal -- from any personal knowledge know facts and

3 events in Konjic as well as did you know anything about

4 the activities of Mr. Delalic?

5 A. I believe I said on Friday that from the

6 beginning of the aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina

7 and during the war I was not in Konjic, Sarajevo or any

8 other part of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I was not a war

9 reporter, I was not in the field in

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I was then abroad.

11 Q. Mr. Milic, did you personally put together

12 all the commentaries on the footage and if you can

13 remember how many of those were there?

14 A. My final version had 15 commentaries. And

15 seems to me 22 edited excerpts. And I think we went

16 through the tape yesterday again and the text read by

17 the speaker who was not very skilful, but it is in

18 accordance with what I wrote’ with what I created.

19 Q. You have told the Chamber that you were shown

20 a tape by the Defence and it is a Defence exhibit. And

21 even without my question, you confirmed to the Chamber

22 that these were your commentaries. You have answered

23 to my following questions at that. So my question now

24 is, in this tape, which is accepted as exhibit, are

25 there all your commentaries and excerpts or is there

1 something missing?

2 A. I would like to view through the tape

3 presented to the Chamber by the Prosecution. Again,

4 because I know that on my version of the tape, my last

5 words, were supposed to be in connection to Zejnil's

6 arrival and the time he spent in Vienna and later on we

7 put Zejnil's statement on the tape. And this is the

8 tape that I put together and I claim it as my version.

9 The version of the tape that the Prosecution holds I

10 shouldn't -- I wouldn't want to comment on it right

11 now. I would like to compare the two versions.

12 Q. We will probably have time to return to that

13 later on, but before we put your testimony in

14 connection with the exhibit we have here, because the

15 tape is not something that can be presented without

16 viewing. You have to see it. But, nevertheless, could

17 you tell us, do you know who edited the tape in Vienna

18 when you gave the instructions for it? Do you know who

19 made the final version?

20 A. No, but I can presume that it was one of the

21 people that Dzemal or Ciso found in Vienna. But what

22 is obvious is that it was done by amateurs.

23 Q. Can you remember, Mr. Milic, in which manner

24 was the text read on that tape, the text submitted by

25 you?

1 A. My judgement is that it is done very poorly,

2 in a very amateur way. The only effective part refers

3 to the introductory part of the war in

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but this and a footage taken by the

5 Konjic television. The camera and editing is too

6 still, it's too dead, whilst we are listening to the

7 speaker, the reading of the speaker is very bad. So

8 they must have had poor technology and people who are

9 amateurs who do not know their work.

10 Q. Thank you. On Friday you said that you went

11 quickly through 20 or 30 tapes and then that you viewed

12 carefully the two tapes which you made out of those 20

13 or 30. And then, according to your directives, the

14 final version was made. Can you remember what was the

15 duration of the final tape that you have received from

16 Vienna?

17 A. Conditionally speaking it is a final

18 version. I believe it was about three and three and a

19 half hours. It is still a raw version. We wanted to

20 have that up to 80 minutes, which is still too much.

21 The point or the statement of that footage was supposed

22 to be a certain basis which we would then use at

23 various press conferences. But the version that came

24 from Vienna could not be released to public in that

25 duration. But, nevertheless, the operation stopped. I

1 don't know the exact reasons for it, but that's the end

2 of it.

3 Q. Can we continue in this direction a bit. On

4 Friday you said that you gave directions for the script

5 and the draft. And when you said that, when you gave

6 those directions, did you also offer suggestions about

7 what has to be stressed in the excerpts that are to be

8 left?

9 A. I believe that I asked from Dzemal, for

10 Zejnil as the hero of my story, so to speak, to be in

11 the first plan. He has to be on the screen for at

12 least five seconds. But they took that too literally

13 and then I had Zejnil up to five or ten minutes

14 constantly on the screen.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 A. The authenticated footage was on those 20 or

17 30 tapes, and then I made my version, edited version.

18 Q. Thank you. I just wanted to clarify that.

19 Mr. Milic, you said what your sources of information

20 were and when you finally received the tape, you wanted

21 to have the opinion of a person's that the tape was all

22 about. Do you know whether this tape was shown to Mr.

23 Delalic and, if so, who showed it to him and where?

24 A. Quite a bit later after our work, I learned

25 that Zejnil Delalic saw the tape, but that he decided

1 not to proceed. Otherwise, I insisted that Zejnil sees

2 the tape because I didn't directly want to tell those

3 people that this is not what I wanted and that we

4 should have to have consultations or Zejnil Delalic's

5 opinion.

6 Then through Dzemal, I asked to be given

7 Delalic's opinion. At that time he was in Munich. And

8 after awhile, Dzemal told me that they decided not to

9 proceed. That Zejnil Delalic was grateful for my work

10 and effort, but that he chose to seek compensation

11 through attorneys. I was not happy with that decision,

12 especially because at that time, time was on the

13 Bosnian side, as well as on my and his side. But such

14 is life.

15 Q. Thank you. Within those 15 commentaries that

16 you put together, did you describe Zejnil Delalic's

17 activities during 1992 in a truthful way?

18 A. Only partially. Everything else was intended

19 to be a counter campaign with only one aim to tell our

20 people and the Croatian public that the undeniable

21 truth is Mr. Delalic is not a Chetnik, he's not a KOS

22 member, that he did not flee by using Chetnik

23 helicopter. And that he did not betray the principles

24 and the fight for Bosnia-Herzegovina. That Zejnil

25 Delalic did not betray the siege of Sarajevo. And that

1 he is not a person who released Serb detainees.

2 Q. To return to one part of your answers. On

3 Friday you said that all the propaganda against Zejnil

4 could have been put in three categories, one of them

5 being that he's a KOS member, K-O-S, and that he aids

6 the Serb sides and that he's trying to strain the

7 relationship between Croats and Muslims. And the

8 third, that he used the Chetnik helicopter to flee to

9 the Serb side.

10 Due to a better understanding of what you

11 referred to, I wanted to ask you at the end of 1992 and

12 beginning of 1993, what did it mean to be stigmatised

13 as a Chetnik in a campaign undertaken in Croatia?

14 A. We could move even further. Generally

15 speaking, in western Europe, if one is called "Chetnik"

16 amongst Muslims or Croatians, literally meant a death

17 sentence. Without any law or by using any methods

18 possible, excluding Croatian population, which

19 traditionally has certain hatred against Chetniks.

20 At the same time in Croatia there were

21 between 300,000 and 500,000 Bosnian Muslims who fled

22 before the Chetnik knife. People who went through a

23 lot at that period. Many of them still remember the

24 Second World War and the term "Chetnik" by itself, even

25 for the Chetnik himself, has a very, very negative

1 conation and is a source of a lot of negative energy.

2 And you can imagine what the situation is if one is

3 being presented as a Chetnik amongst his own people.

4 And this is what happened to Mr. Zejnil Delalic. This

5 means to not only sentence you to death, but his entire

6 family.

7 Q. Answer to my question, you have said not only

8 in Croatia, but in the entire Western Europe, what

9 would that mean if you can clarify?

10 A. The public in Bosnia-Herzegovina during 1992,

11 over 1 million of Bosniaks were in other countries like

12 Switzerland, Netherlands, Austria and later on Sweden

13 opened up its borders. And all those people did not

14 have contact with the Bosnia-Herzegovina media, which

15 were supposed to be the most reliable source of

16 information.

17 BiH television did not have its satellite

18 programme. Radio transmission was destroyed by

19 Chetniks and HVO. Our press did not arrive to those

20 countries and people were thirsty for information.

21 They didn't know the foreign languages, neither German

22 or English or French. And, therefore, they were

23 directed towards Croatian media, Croatian satellite

24 channel and the Croatian press. I believe three

25 dailies, three Croatian dailies were present in foreign

1 countries and four to five weeklies, which dealt

2 thoroughly with the situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

3 Thoroughly, of course, is under quotations because at

4 that time we had the campaign going against Zejnil

5 Delalic and some other members of the Bosnian TO.

6 Q. I believe that this additional clarification

7 also explained a motive of your engagement with the

8 tapes?

9 A. Yes, that is correct.

10 Q. Did the effort you invested in that work, was

11 it rewarded? Did you have any benefit?

12 A. I'm sorry, that never went through

13 entirely,. My work never really saw the light of day

14 that I thought it would. And in that period of active

15 cooperation and my work, we didn't have time to worry

16 about fees, although it doesn't mean that I wouldn't

17 have received anything. But at that time, I had money

18 and Mr. Vesid and Dzemal were there when we would meet,

19 when I would come to Zagreb, they would pay my round

20 trip ticket and money that would be spent on food in

21 Zagreb. That was all paid by then. But there was no

22 agreement, written agreement about the whole deal.

23 Q. To return to the text that you put together,

24 you said that the press stated that Mr. Delalic was a

25 Chetnik and a traitor, in your commentaries, how did

1 you try to present him to counter this campaign?

2 A. In my comments, he had to be the absolute

3 opposite. The absolute opposite of everything which

4 they said he was. He was a patriot, he was a

5 combatant, a humanist. And my commentary, men in the

6 forefront of the fighting ranks for

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

8 Q. But as you said on Friday, there was a very

9 significant propaganda action being carried out,

10 vis-à-vis Mr. Delalic saying that he was releasing the

11 Chetniks. What did you advance to counter such a

12 propaganda thesis in such a propaganda machinery in

13 your own text?

14 A. Well, in order to boost the morale of the

15 people and to watch this milieu of him, I was even,

16 even more caustic in one of my versions.

17 Q. You also said that a number of these attacks

18 launched against him in the press was that he was

19 against the lifting of the blockade in Sarajevo, and

20 that because of that action of his, Sarajevo was even

21 under a stronger blockade. So what did you offer in

22 your text to counter such propaganda, namely, that he

23 was against the lifting of the blockade of Sarajevo?

24 A. According to me, he was in the forefront of

25 the ranks for the lifting of the blockade of Sarajevo.

1 Q. Please, I've confined myself in my questions

2 to just what you have said, that was the fundamental

3 basis of this campaign of yours, not every single

4 caption that you used in this tape. Please tell me, as

5 regards these facts which you have just enumerated,

6 namely, that he was the organiser; that he was the

7 bellwether, that he was in the forefront of the

8 struggle for freedom; that he locked up Serbs; that he

9 was the first to organise the lifting of the blockade

10 of Sarajevo; Mr. Milic, did you hear these facts from

11 persons to whom you talked, from Ciso, from Vejsil,

12 from Dzemil, from Sefik, or did you hear that from

13 other persons from Konjic, who at that time, were

14 staying in Konjic?

15 A. Now we are returning to an analysis of my own

16 pattern of my own position. I believe it will suffice

17 if I say that these were improvisations, my own

18 improvisations. That was my story, which only had one

19 objective, and that is to refute, at least in part, the

20 effects to offset the effects of the Croatian

21 propaganda campaign being waged against Zejnil Delalic.

22 Q. But still, Mr. Milic, I understand you have

23 given me an indirect answer, but I should like to ask

24 you to tell me, was one of the persons, did one of the

25 persons whom I enumerated, personally tell you that

1 Zejnil Delalic was the organiser of the struggle in

2 that region, and that he locked up Serbs, and that he

3 was the first person, the leader of the people, to lift

4 the blockade of Sarajevo? Did any one of these persons

5 tell you these facts, relate to you these facts as

6 truthful?

7 A. No. On the contrary. In the time when I was

8 making this tape, there was some reluctance on the part

9 of Dzemal, actually objections raised on the part of

10 Dzemal, in respect of some of my formulations.

11 In respect of a specific operation, I'm not

12 quite sure which one in relation to a village, when I

13 put him in the forefront, and when I glorified him. He

14 said that I was exaggerating, that this was a man who

15 had rented two houses only and equipped a unit and

16 participated in the -- putting together of some

17 formations. And there was some sort of meeting, a

18 consultation in the place Fojnica and, according to

19 him, that was also an exaggerated report on my part.

20 But, I repeat, everything was in pursuit of a

21 single objective, this whole story. It had

22 four-and-a-half typewritten cards of text and it

23 required -- it would take some 15 to 16 minutes on the

24 part of a professional announcer to read it on radio.

25 So nicely put together and read properly, that would

1 give the proper effect regarding Mr. Delalic's welcome

2 in Vienna, which was the whole point, the, like, motive

3 of this story. And that would also be reflected, would

4 yield results in the field, that is to say in our own

5 as well as in the Croatian public.

6 Q. Mr. Delalic (sic), when we started our

7 conversation, I asked you about the programme called a

8 picture -- "To Picture," which is a TV Zagreb

9 programme, and you said, as is recorded in the

10 transcript, that you did not see, but that you saw it

11 later. Will you please tell me when you saw it and why

12 was it important; why did you feel it was important for

13 you to mention it?

14 A. This question also leads us to an analysis of

15 my text, which I still do not have as such, but I

16 recall some things. I did say that a -- directed

17 programme -- I did not see this programme that you

18 referred to on television myself then, but I will be

19 seeing it, I will be viewing it on the video cassettes

20 which will come from Vienna. And the title, which

21 Mr. Latin either deliberately or inadvertently, --

22 Mr. Latin -- was quite suitable for me. I could use it

23 properly. They, namely, call him Mr. Delalic, the

24 commander of the Territorial Defence of Konjic, I

25 believe, what is -- essentially that he was a

1 commander. Although he was not one. And Dzemal told

2 me that Zejnil later wanted to deny that, but, as we

3 lived quite quickly and worked quite quickly in that

4 period, life simply went on. But I saw excellent

5 material in it to project an image before our own

6 public, that the cassette was originally intended for,

7 offers Zejnil Delalic as a commander and to lay there

8 by the foundations for all my theses in the text which

9 was to follow, and which has some 160 typewritten lines

10 of text.

11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Milic.

12 Your Honours, in view of the fact that the

13 witness is speaking about a specific Exhibit in this

14 case, I should like to ask you, whether to be able to

15 correlate this testimony with the Exhibit. I should

16 like to ask the Prosecutor whether the evidence

17 material contains this videotape, whether it is marked

18 E46 -- I46 as a whole or partially so, because we have

19 received both tapes under the same number and the

20 decision of the court refers to I46.

21 So if you could please clarify this for me,

22 it would be easy for me to see whether the witness

23 recognises this videotape as the one that he made

24 comments for, namely, I am talking about evidence

25 material, Exhibit number 116.

1 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I don't know

2 whether it's the tape he is talking about or not. It's

3 their witness, not ours. They have had opportunity to

4 look at the video and make that decision themselves.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you understand what

6 Mr. Niemann said?

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: No, I did not, Your Honours,

8 because when the Prosecutor proposed that 116 be

9 tendered into evidence, he gave us two videotapes. One

10 was an abridged version, and one was a whole version,

11 as reportedly found in INDA-BAU, with the proposal that

12 the text of the journalist should not be accepted. But

13 by your decision you did accept the cassette videotape

14 I46, which is Exhibit 116. So we did not know whether

15 the Exhibit contains this cassette found in INDA-BAU or

16 just the excerpts which the Prosecutor has also given

17 us.

18 So I just wanted the Prosecutor to clarify

19 that particular fact for us, because your decision,

20 actually, encompasses I46, but we have both.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The evidence is about

22 the tape your witness edited. That is the evidence he

23 is giving. If that is the tape you want to tender, you

24 go ahead and tender it.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: May I then ask that cassette

1 number 2, that this Exhibit contribution number 1,

2 which is contained on a tape number 2, be shown, so

3 that we can see whether the witness recognises it as

4 his own work.

5 Can we take this tape, which you have here,

6 and give it to the technician?

7 THE REGISTRAR: That is the Prosecutor's tape

8 I46, which is Exhibit 116. It has been accepted on the

9 19th of January. There is a full transcript of the

10 entire tape 16A and 16B, with excerpts from the

11 transcript also given. Then we also have the

12 transcripts of 116C, which was shown for another

13 witness. Would you like cassette number 116?

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (Microphone turned off)

15 -- because he is only giving evidence of what he

16 edited.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes. I'd like the

18 technicians to show us the beginning of this tape and

19 the end of this tape. I assume that the Trial Chamber

20 will appreciate that we do not have to watch the entire

21 tape, which probably runs for some three hours. We

22 just want to check whether that is the tape.

23 Of course we can always view the edited

24 parts, but may I now ask the usher to take the cassette

25 to the technical service and to project, to show us the

1 beginning, so that we could correlate this testimony of

2 this witness with the evidence in question. If you'll

3 allow that, Your Honours.

4 If the technical service is able to show us

5 this tape, will they show us the first report, which

6 has been tendered into evidence and admitted by the

7 court as Exhibit 116.

8 Q. And may I ask you, Mr. Milic, to pay special

9 attention to the text so that we could see whether the

10 text is the text which you yourself prepared.

11 (Videotape played)

12 THE INTERPRETER: Before the beginning

13 of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, a very small number

14 of Muslims in Bosnia were ready for war. One of the

15 few who reckoned that there will be war, after all, was

16 Zjenil Delalic, a famous businessman, who after 20

17 years working in the west, returned to his native

18 Konjic in March this year and formed immediately an

19 underground war headquarters and equipped two modern

20 houses for that purpose.

21 He obtained all the initial equipment,

22 starting with the money, which he brought with himself,

23 which he used for the HVO of Konjic and Jablanica,

24 which had already been formed. Most of the citizens of

25 Muslims look at them as the opposers of the formidable

1 JNA, the Serbs armed to the teeth. It was very clearly

2 marked, which Serb sites had to be taken in the area

3 of Konjic.

4 The first operation of this kind was

5 undertaken in the beginning of April, and the military

6 factory Igman was taken with a great quantity of

7 ammunition with which the entire Bosnia-Herzegovina was

8 to use later for its war. At the Helm office, elected

9 group of 20 lads in the night of 19 April. After

10 midnight Zejnil took the Serb village of Celebici

11 and the barracks in Celebici and the barracks in

12 Celebici. That was the first seized JNA barracks in

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina with a rich arsenal of war booty and

14 ordinance, and this same group stationed themselves

15 there as the first combat group on the Territorial

16 Defence in Konjic right away.

17 That 12 soldiers who were being released to

18 go home via Split were the source of the anger of

19 Mr. Kukanjac, and Kukanjac shouted how he would bomb

20 Konjic in retaliation.

21 This group attacked the 8th of April and took

22 all the other barracks and the depot of Territorial

23 Defence weapons and ammunition. During this operation

24 General Kukanjac sent a whole squadron of aeroplanes,

25 which succeeded to destroy more than half of the

1 ordinance which belonged to Konjic, Jablanica, Prozor.

2 And this is how it looked after the first bombing and

3 shelling in Konjic.

4 Q. Will you please now stop the projection of

5 the tape. Mr. Milic, you heard this first text. Is

6 this the text which you personally wrote yourself?

7 A. Yes, it is, but perhaps because of some

8 technical inadequacy, we do not have the credits, the

9 television Konjic caption.

10 Q. Perhaps you didn't see, but it was shown.

11 A. Well, I didn't see it.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Okay. Thank you very much.

13 So this is the text which you wrote.

14 Your Honours, can we now look at the end of

15 this tape to see whether it is the end of the final

16 version of the cassette which this witness had in his

17 hands. So I should like to ask the technical people to

18 show us the end of the cassette now.

19 I believe that the technical section has

20 understood that I would like to view a couple of

21 minutes of the last part of this cassette, so that the

22 witness could see whether it is a tape which he made.

23 (Videotape played)

24 THE INTERPRETER: -- Detracting our attention from

25 our main task, which is fighting the Chetniks. Zejnil

1 is exerting maximum efforts so as to calm down

2 tensions, but the HVO is trying to smear him as much as

3 possible in every possible way. They are resorting in

4 this effort to all sorts of conceivable things.

5 Q. Sorry, this is impossible to follow. Thank

6 you. It's enough.

7 Mr. Milic, was this the last part of the

8 cassette which you edited, which you prepared? Please

9 tell me, as this cassette which here is Exhibit number

10 116, which has been submitted by the Prosecutor to the

11 Defence, have you had occasion to see this cassette?

12 Tell me, at this point in time, now that you have seen

13 these parts, were all your previous articles included

14 in that cassette?

15 A. Yes. Yes. But then there was this abrupt

16 cutting off of parts.

17 Q. What do you mean? What was missing? How

18 many of your reports or articles or segments of this

19 text was missing? Can you remember exactly?

20 A. After talking to Mr. Diva Caric (phoen) and

21 Zejnil, please, I know that the last part which I wrote

22 is missing, and that is the light motive of my report,

23 of my story, and that is also a shot of Zejnil Delalic

24 from the welcome ceremony in Vienna.

25 And then there was after that something which

1 was subsequently added by Dzemal to this cassette,

2 which I know for a fact was produced by me. That part

3 is the part of Zejnil's message, which did not fit into

4 it, namely, it was not originally intended to be part

5 of this material, but Dzemal had it produced and given

6 to me for my inspection. But this message of Zejnil's

7 was supposed to reach through some channels Sarajevo,

8 the ^ Sarajevo people.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, given the fact

10 that this witness has said that all the texts, from the

11 first one to this one, are his indeed, but that there

12 is one missing, if I understand the things right and if

13 I can say this.

14 If the Prosecutor agrees that these texts

15 which are contained on the cassette, from the first to

16 the penultimate text, according to the witness, I

17 suggest -- I move that this be accepted, that this be

18 admitted. If it is not admitted, then I propose that

19 perhaps we should show every one of the texts of the

20 parts of the cassette so that the witness could

21 recognise them. Because there were 12 of them, as we

22 know, and these ones which were mentioned by the

23 witness too.

24 So if the Prosecutor agrees, if we could

25 perhaps accept this proposal of mine so that we don't

1 have to view the entire cassette.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (Microphone turned off)

3 How about a suggestion?

4 MR. NIEMANN: I have no objection to the tape

5 being tendered. I can't give any assurances that it's

6 the tape that was made in its entirety by this

7 gentleman, this witness, but I certainly have no

8 objection to it being tendered.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, it has been

10 made part of the evidence. I just want the witness to

11 confirm that the text of -- the journalistic text on

12 the cassette actually belong to this witness. That is

13 the whole point of his testimony. So what I am

14 actually asking is whether the Prosecutor accepts that

15 these texts are texts of this witness, namely, that we

16 do not have to show every story to the witness for him

17 to identify it as his own text.

18 JUDGE JAN: But has he seen the tape which is

19 in the Court, the whole of it, this witness?

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, the witness has seen

21 this cassette.

22 JUDGE JAN: He has seen all those 12

23 portions? Ask him if he's seen all those portions.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC:

25 Q. Mr. Milic, have you seen all these portions,

1 from the first to the last, which was shown here right

2 now? Do you recognise that as the text which you

3 personally wrote?

4 A. Yes, those are my texts, but abridged. The

5 whole video cassette has been abridged. It is not

6 complete.

7 Q. Mr. Milic, you've just said that there is a

8 commentary of yours missing and two stories, the one

9 regarding the welcome in Vienna, which was very

10 important to you for your whole effort, and the

11 statement by Mr. Delalic.

12 Your Honours, in order for us to be able to

13 identify that part of the text also, in accordance with

14 Rule 66 the Prosecutor has submitted to us cassette

15 I66, which has the reportedly being found in

16 INDA-BAU. So may I ask you that this text, which is

17 also a continuation of this cassette, which is already

18 in the evidence, I should like to ask you to let the

19 witness view it.

20 May I ask the usher to give you this text of

21 the Prosecutor. I have a copy for the Prosecutor and

22 for the court.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (Microphone turned off).

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: It is all, Your Honours, one

25 cassette, but it was simply cut where his last story

1 was, and that last story is contained in another

2 cassette, which was allegedly found also in INDA-BAU

3 and which the Prosecutor has submitted to us. I should

4 like to show the witness's last segment to see whether

5 that is also the story which this witness made when he

6 made the original complete tape. So that is a part of

7 the last segment. He did say that there were 15 texts,

8 15 stories, on the original cassette, and this one

9 which was given to us contains 14.

10 We've heard another witness explain to us the

11 problems related to the editing of the text, so it is

12 quite possible that there was a technical problem of

13 that kind involved.

14 I have here a translation of the text for

15 you, and I should also like to ask the witness to take

16 a look at it to tell us whether that is his concluding

17 commentary.

18 The Prosecutor did not offer as evidence that

19 cassette, but only the first one, but he did submit the

20 latter to us, to the Defence, for their inspection.

21 THE REGISTRAR: This is document 184A.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: I should now like to ask the

23 technical people to let us see the first story from the

24 first tape, the story with a flag.

25 Q. You will be listening to the text in our

1 language, Mr. Milic, so that you don't have to look at

2 the English version.

3 It is tape number 1 and the first story on

4 that tape.

5 (Videotape played)

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. My apologies, but

7 I gave the written translation of the text. That's why

8 there was no interpretation.

9 Q. Mr. Milic, is this the last story made by you

10 when you were putting the tape together for the counter

11 campaign for Mr. Delalic? Is this your last written

12 commentary?

13 A. The text read by the speaker is my last

14 commentary, which was supposed to be illustrated by the

15 footage from the club of his business associates in

16 Vienna, which we saw only a brief second of. And I

17 said already that on the final tape sent to me by

18 Dzemal from Vienna, there was Zejnil's statement added

19 for the Sarajevo public.

20 Q. Can we now see for a minute another story

21 from tape 1.

22 (Videotape played)

23 Q. Thank you. This part is five to six minutes

24 long. Can the technical service please interrupt the

25 tape now, stop it. Either fast forward it or stop it

1 because we've seen enough to ask the question I

2 wanted. Mr. Milic, is this footage of the welcome

3 reception that was in line after your final commentary

4 in the final version of the tape?

5 A. Yes, this was where the tape was supposed to

6 end.

7 Q. Would this footage then confirm your thesis

8 that Zejnil Delalic did not use Chetnik helicopter to

9 flee to the Serb side, but rather that he came to

10 Vienna amongst his business and personal

11 acquaintances?

12 A. I have mentioned that already a few times

13 today, that the -- motive, the point of the entire idea

14 was to prove that Zejnil Delalic did not betray

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Bosniaks, that he's not a Chetnik

16 or a KOS agent. And the last ten lines of text that I

17 wrote points to that. And all that needed to be

18 illustrated by this particular footage. That was

19 supposed to be the end. And also, then, the basis for

20 any future discussions and questions at press

21 conferences.

22 Q. You said that Dzemal, to your script added

23 another story, which, together with this reception

24 party, Zejnil Delalic wanted to be sent to Bosnia.

25 Since you had that tape in 1993, can we now briefly see

1 the third excerpt from Tape 1, so that the witness

2 could give his opinion on it?

3 (Videotape played)?

4 MS. RESIDOVIC:

5 Q. We have the text, can we please stop the tape

6 a minute, so that we distribute copies. We have here

7 written translations of the spoken text. Can this be

8 distributed to the Judges and the Prosecutor's office.

9 This text could also be given to interpreters, so they

10 could follow.

11 THE REGISTRAR: No translation.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC:

13 Q. Could we now go back to the third excerpt on

14 Tape 1 to be shown to the witness, so that I could ask

15 the following question.

16 (Videotape played)

17 THE INTERPRETER: That was the welcome, with

18 typical Chetnik songs because they say I came with a

19 Chetnik helicopter. This is really simple for some

20 sick, imaginative imbeciles to fabricate because they

21 are unable to show one fifth of my results in this

22 stupid war.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. I believe this is

24 sufficient for me to ask the question.

25 Q. Mr. Milic, is that an excerpt added to your

1 script by Mr. Delalic's brother, Dzemal, for which he

2 said that Zejnil wanted to send it to Sarajevo together

3 with the footage from the reception?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Your Honourable Judges, since this witness

6 needs to testify on the entirety of the tape, I would

7 suggest that the text which the witness recognises is

8 the final text of his tape, with two additional

9 stories, which he also recognised as excerpts from 1993

10 be admitted into evidence for the Defence.

11 MR. NIEMANN: No objections, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's admitted.

13 THE REGISTRAR: This is No. D-186. A for the

14 first part, B for the second and C for the third part.

15 JUDGE JAN: If the person shown on the screen

16 was your client?

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes. You heard from the

18 previous witness that in the fit of depression wanted

19 to send that statement to Sarajevo. I cannot say more

20 of it because I did not witness it. But since this

21 particular witness had the tape in his hands, could

22 confirm that.

23 Mr. Milic, the Chamber has just admitted

24 these additional parts which were missing, but could

25 you please state again that all the written texts read

1 on the previous tape between 1 and 14 are really your

2 texts, is that true?

3 A. Absolutely. Every speaker's word is what I

4 wrote. I wrote that in Fontana, in Croatia in 1993,

5 mid-March, I believe, sometime in the spring of 1993.

6 That was the period of most intensive work. These are

7 my words, my text, which, unfortunately, was not made

8 public. It was disposed of.

9 Q. Mr. Milic, the last commentary with the text

10 of Mr. Delalic's leaving Konjic and his arrival to

11 Vienna, was this the basic aim of your counter

12 campaign, which was suppose to prove that Zejnil did

13 not leave for Belgrade, but instead he came to Vienna?

14 A. I believe on Friday and today, I stressed the

15 light motive, the point and the aim we had. And

16 exactly through this last excerpt we wanted to tell

17 everything. That he's not a Chetnik. He's not a KOS

18 agent. That he's not a traitor, but rather, that he's

19 a son of Bosnia-Herzegovina and its people.

20 Q. And the last thing I wanted to tell you

21 before the Chamber referred to commentaries which were

22 your journalist improvisation with an aim of counter

23 campaign or a reaction to the propaganda seen in the

24 Croatian press.

25 So my question is, is this the essence of

1 everything that you have spoken of here? Although many

2 of those things referred to certainly are things that

3 you cannot personally testify.

4 A. This is the essence. This is my work. I

5 cannot say more than that.

6 Q. I apologise, Your Honours, I believe I

7 clarified that, but my colleague warned me in full

8 right. The witness confirmed several times that the

9 text on this tape, as well as the text that we have

10 shown now are his. Therefore, does the chamber accept

11 that these texts were made by this witness and they

12 form a part of the tape which is Exhibit 116?

13 MR. NIEMANN: I object to that, Your Honour.

14 I believe that was clear, but...

15 JUDGE JAN: That is what this witness claims,

16 nothing more than that.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes. I believe that was

18 clear, but since my colleague warned me, I wanted to

19 clarify that. Your Honours, I have no further

20 questions for this witness. Mr. Milic, thank you very

21 much.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is there any

23 cross-examination of this witness?

24 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, the second accused

25 Defence has no questions.

1 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, Mr. Delic's

2 Defence has no questions for this witness.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Questions.

4 MS. BOLER: Your Honours, the Defence of Esad

5 Landzo has no questions for this witness.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any examination?

7 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, Your Honour.

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann

9 Q. Do you know whether or not Mr. Delalic, did

10 you see any material that he had sent to other

11 journalists other than yourself when you were preparing

12 this tape?

13 A. No, I am not familiar with that. Concerning

14 the media of Croatia, Serbia and the TV Konjic and some

15 footage were taken from our national B and H

16 television. That was what the tapes I had consisted

17 of.

18 Q. I was really more or less just asking about

19 written material that he had prepared, did you see

20 anything of that nature, other than the section that he

21 has just read out that is now being admitted?

22 A. No, I did not have a single written

23 material. I made my notes and I received information

24 from Dzemal, Ciso, Vejsil and some other people. And I

25 also taped some news from Croatian radio or Serb

1 radio. I did not have written material, but I used

2 Croatian media as the basis for my commentaries and I

3 followed the reporting. I analysed it. I received

4 something from Vejsil as well. And on the basis of

5 their content and the given moment, I decided to put

6 together the material as seen here.

7 Q. Now when you're in Croatia at that particular

8 time, did you ever hear of a news agency with the

9 initials BIPA?

10 A. No. The official Croatian agencies here

11 HINA, H-I-N-A.

12 Q. It might not could not be Croatian, it could

13 be somewhere from the former Yugoslavia, maybe Bosnia.

14 Have you ever heard of a newspaper agency, B-I-P-A,

15 BIPA?

16 A. No, I didn't pay particular attention. I

17 never heard of it.

18 Q. What about a journalist by the name of Mr.

19 Nosic, N-o-s-i-c?

20 A. I heard of Nosic in Latin.

21 Q. Where did Mr. Nosic, where did he come from?

22 A. I do not know because I don't know him

23 personally. I also believe he's not an influential

24 name in the journalistic community, so I didn't pay too

25 much importance to it.

1 Q. Tell me what you do know about him and how is

2 it that you know his name and what you do know of him?

3 A. Absolutely nothing in particular, maybe I

4 came across one of his texts.

5 Q. Did you see any of material sent to Mr. Nosic

6 by Mr. Delalic?

7 A. No. I did not.

8 Q. I take it Mr. Nosic was in Croatia, was he?

9 A. You can assume for yourself, but I do not

10 know.

11 Q. Well, you've heard of his name, so you must

12 have heard of his name in connection with some place or

13 another, surely?

14 A. During an ordinary day, I would go through

15 four or five Croatian dailies, at the same time

16 listening to the radio and television. And if I am

17 concentrated on the content, I do not think of who

18 wrote a particular text.

19 My motto and what I also realise is that here

20 we dealt with an organised, orchestrated campaign by

21 all the media. I paid attention to some of my

22 colleagues names, colleagues from Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23 And by that time they were also moving slightly towards

24 the side which was on the way to betray the Bosnia

25 principles. I may have come across Mr. Nosic's name.

1 But I don't know anything more about him.

2 I remember, for example, texts by Zlatko

3 Prlenda. And he was one of my editors in Sarajevo.

4 And also one of the people I corroborated with. And

5 his texts were published in Slobodan Dalmatia, and we

6 can talk about him, for example. But as concerns Mr.

7 Nosic, his name doesn't mean anything to me. I may

8 have, in some of the Croatian press, whether in

9 Slobodan Dalmatia, Vetchna, Vijesnik (phoen) or some

10 magazines, or in Globus (phoen). Or paper published in

11 Istria. So at those instances, I could have come

12 across his name or his initials, but that's all I know

13 of him.

14 Q. Now I think that you said in your evidence

15 that you prepared this material so that you could

16 organise a campaign to bring to the light of the day

17 what actually did happen in Konjic and to counter the

18 propaganda that was being perpetrated especially

19 against Mr. Delalic, is that right?

20 A. I believe I have already said that and I

21 state now that in my propaganda material, I wanted to

22 counter negative effects from Mr. Delalic and Bosniaks

23 in general. And these effects were caused by

24 well-organised campaign launched at exactly a

25 particular moment through the Croatian media.

1 Q. Were the attacks on Mr. Delalic perpetrated

2 entirely by Croatian media or were they also media in

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina that was attacking Mr. Delalic?

4 A. Not one of the Bosnia-Herzegovina mediums had

5 anything negative concerning that. There were a

6 certain number of Bosnia media which could be listened

7 to or bought in Croatia, if we're talking about radio

8 or the press. But they would mainly report on the

9 successes of the defenders of Konjic or attempts of

10 people to lift the siege of Sarajevo. But Zejnil

11 Delalic was not mentioned often on Radio Sarajevo,

12 which was my main source of information.

13 Concerning B and H press, during that period

14 there was no mention of his name. And the press at

15 that time could not be found in Croatia. It cannot be

16 found even today in Croatia.

17 Q. So far as you are aware at the time and that

18 you have nothing to suggest otherwise, he was not

19 receiving any adverse publicity or media comment in

20 Bosnia?

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness had said that he

22 did not have that press.

23 THE WITNESS: I do not have it and I cannot

24 precisely answer to your question. I told you I was

25 not in the field and Bosnia-Herzegovina press could not

1 be found in Croatia. And even today one cannot buy it

2 in Croatia.

3 MR. NIEMANN:

4 Q. Now you said that you also decided to

5 exaggerate some parts of the script, did you exaggerate

6 or just lie?

7 A. Both. Both, exaggeration and lying. But I

8 stress because I was instigated by other people's

9 lives, by people who are my professional colleagues,

10 people I attended university with, people that I used

11 to have drinks and go out in Sarajevo before the war.

12 Of course this is contrary to the profession.

13 JUDGE JAN: Microphone not on.

14 MR. NIEMANN: Apparently that has credence in

15 some marriages, it's not one I subscribe to myself.

16 Q. Tell me, how did you expect to bring out the

17 truth, the light of day, by lying?

18 A. Before you repeat the question, because I do

19 not understand it properly. But in 1992 and 1993, when

20 the Belgrade television issued up to 99 per cent of

21 lies about how the Serbs are endangered in

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the total picture was one big

23 lie. So the foreign institutions at that time did not

24 react. And at a certain point you've had enough of it

25 and you go over your principles, your moral principles,

1 your professional ethics, because what is in question

2 are your people, are your country.

3 Q. But you have no intention --

4 A. And my family and myself were in a foreign

5 country. But could you now repeat your initial

6 question.

7 Q. Yes, my initial question is, how could you

8 possibly hope to bring out the truth which was your

9 objective if you're going to do it by a process of

10 telling lies?

11 A. Sir, they were not absolutely all lies. You

12 must know that Zejnil Delalic was made a hero by the

13 Croatian media. It is also a fact that Mr. Delalic,

14 Zejnil, did come to Konjic in March, 1992. And that he

15 said there for a while. He came there because of a

16 tragedy in his family.

17 It is a fact that he joined the defensive

18 forces of the Territorial Defence force of Konjic. It

19 is a fact that as a businessman, he donated equipment

20 and uniforms to our defensive force members. For me,

21 that is material enough to exaggerate some things.

22 Always in the pursuit of the single objective

23 offsetting and refuting much graver accusations against

24 his person would smear him and, in fact, convicted him

25 in advance.

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think the Trial

2 Chamber will now rise and reassemble at noon.

3 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 12.05 p.m.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Niemann, you may

6 proceed, please.

7 JUDGE JAN: Remind the witness.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Remind the witness he is

9 still under oath.

10 THE REGISTRAR: I should like to remind the

11 witness that you are still testifying under oath.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann:

13 Q. Mr. Milic, you mentioned the Belgrade media

14 and what they were doing during the course of the war.

15 I take it, that none of the campaign that you were

16 engaged in was directed to anything that was being said

17 about Mr. Delalic in the Belgrade media?

18 A. In the period starting with 1992, the period

19 that I had been in Croatia, I could not have access,

20 direct access to any media to Yugoslavia from Serbia,

21 apart from some contributions, some articles which were

22 just given by way of illustration. In some programmes

23 on Croatian television, or rather in the programme

24 called "Picture by Picture" on Croatian television,

25 those are the only things I could see. And that is not

1 relevant to the period in which I spent in Croatia.

2 What I mentioned had to do with a campaign in

3 which all Serbs were to be mobilised to put up a

4 maximum of defence campaign which sought to project an

5 image of all Croatians as Ustashes, all Croatians on

6 the soil of the former Yugoslavia, and all Muslims on

7 the soil of the former Yugoslavia as Muslim

8 fundamentalists, and as for Slovenians, they were to be

9 shown as people who just lost their way and happened to

10 be just come across Yugoslavia. Macedonians were

11 spared of this image.

12 Q. One of the allegations that you say you want

13 to contend was the issue of the releasing of Serb

14 prisoners from the Celebici camp. How did you know

15 whether or not Mr. Delalic could or couldn't release

16 Serbs from the Celebici camp?

17 A. I know for a fact that, according to what

18 Dzemo said, he had no particular special connections

19 with this camp at Celebici. And my comment, my

20 commentary, was precisely a response to the Croatian

21 campaign. And it is a product, the lie, the Croatian

22 lie, that he released Serbs in order to gain a specific

23 image in Croatian, to project an image of him in the

24 Croatian public. So I responded by -- this is where I

25 say that he was arresting them, et cetera.

1 Q. But the video doesn't mention that, does it,

2 anything about the issue of releasing Serbs, your

3 video?

4 A. Well, we would perhaps have to view it. I

5 believe that there is a segment which says something

6 about it. I think that there is a picture, a shot,

7 some footage, a talk with Serb prisoners, namely,

8 where they speak about the conditions of their stay at

9 the prison. And I have to admit, when I saw this

10 footage -- the footage was made, by the way, by BiH

11 television. I believe it was Jadranka Milosevic. I

12 was embittered, because she had given them so much room

13 to speak after Ormarska and Manjaca. I was also bitter

14 at the way they looked. I don't think they looked any

15 worse than we here look, whereas I had the images of

16 Ormarska and Manjaca in mind, and they conjured up very

17 bitter feelings in us.

18 Q. But the scenes about Celebici don't speak of

19 the issue of Mr. Delalic, whether or not he was

20 releasing Serb prisoners, from what I can see, anyway.

21 Unless you tell me something differently. I believe

22 there is a section about where Serb prisoners are

23 interviewed, but there is nothing there discussed about

24 whether Mr. Delalic could or couldn't release

25 prisoners.

1 A. Yes, but, sir, the end of November, 1992,

2 December, 1992, until the end of January, and perhaps

3 the entire month of January, 1993, and all the

4 available media arsenal in Croatia was used to

5 correlate the name of Zejnil Delalic with the release

6 of Serb prisoners. That is the cause why -- excuse

7 me?

8 Q. It may well have been, but you didn't counter

9 it. That's the point I am trying to make. Did you?

10 A. Would you please repeat that, sir.

11 Q. The Croatian media may well have been

12 directed against Mr. Delalic, because he released Serb

13 prisoners, but you didn't counter it? Where did you

14 counter it? I'm asking you where you did it. You

15 point to a section where Serb prisoners are

16 interviewed, but that doesn't deal with it.

17 A. But, sir, this Croatian anti-propaganda, that

18 is the propaganda against Zejnil Delalic, is something

19 which I wished to neutralise, to eliminate. So I

20 constructed my own sentences, my own section of the

21 text where I projected a quite different image of

22 Zejnil Delalic.

23 Q. Now, you were trying to project an image

24 about Mr. Delalic that he was not favourable towards

25 the Serbs. That was one of your objectives, wasn't it?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Yet the only part of the Celebici footage

3 that we see in the video is a short excerpt where the

4 prisoners are saying how the conditions in Celebici

5 were fine, were good. The food was good, they had

6 three meals a day. That's hardly anti-Serb, is it?

7 A. No, it isn't.

8 Q. I agree that it's probably a lie, but it's

9 not anti-Serb, is it?

10 A. I do not understand.

11 Q. Well, if you are trying to -- if you are

12 trying to produce an image that Mr. Delalic was not

13 favourably disposed towards the Serbs, it hardly helps

14 your campaign to put in a segment where the Serbs are

15 saying how wonderful Celebici is, and what the food and

16 conditions are like, are so wonderful, which is what is

17 said. Witnesses are saying they get three meals a day

18 and conditions are fine.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: I object Your Honour.

20 JUDGE JAN: -- partly is true and partly

21 exaggerated. This is his stand, it is partly true and

22 partly exaggerated.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: I object, Your Honours. The

24 witness spoke about the text which he wrote, and he

25 also spoke about the various stories and the way they

1 were edited.

2 A. I don't see why I have to comment on other

3 peoples stories. I can and I want to comment on, and I

4 keep returning to, and I am trying to say to you that,

5 in the absence of other stories, because there was a

6 lack of other stories, we used this one, which perhaps

7 would not have found a place in the final version of

8 the cassette.

9 But I want to highlight my own portion of the

10 text in which I say that Zejnil Delalic set up prisons

11 for Serbs, and I say that in order to defend him from

12 the smear campaign which was being waged against him in

13 Croatia at the time.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Niemann, I don't

15 know -- it depends on the way you look at the nature of

16 this subject matter, whether it's anyhow perverted of

17 any of the counts which Zejnil Delalic is charged.

18 MR. NIEMANN: It's a direct attack on the

19 Austrian documents, Your Honour. It's directly

20 attacking them, saying that they can't be believed. It

21 runs somewhat counter to the Prosecution case. That's

22 the reason for the cross-examination, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And while it's admitted

24 that this is put as exaggerated and false in parts?

25 MR. NIEMANN: I am not questioning that, Your

1 Honour.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Continue.

3 MR. NIEMANN:

4 Q. Now, can you tell me what parts of the --

5 specifically, what parts of either your commentary or

6 the films that you included, the video clips that you

7 included, tell me specifically what parts of them were

8 lies, so we can clarify that?

9 A. Can we please take the video cassette and

10 then start from sentence by sentence, from the first to

11 the last, story by story. Because you must bear with

12 me, sir, even if you yourself had to analyse something

13 that you wrote yesterday, you would not accept to do

14 it. And I certainly cannot do it with something which

15 I wrote in 1993 in this place. So I need to see the

16 entire video cassette, from the first to the last

17 sentence, to analyse it one by one for that purpose.

18 Q. You just tell me about your highlights. You

19 saw it on the weekend, you told us, you wrote it

20 yourself, you are likely to know more about it than

21 anyone else here in this courtroom. When it comes to

22 telling a lie, it takes quite a bit of an effort to

23 tell a lie, so you must know the highlights. You tell

24 us which ones are the main lies.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, but a specific

1 question requires a basis, so that the witness might

2 know what he is being asked.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: But the witness said the

4 whole theme of the videotape consists of exaggerations

5 and lies. All the Prosecution is asking for, what do

6 you think a lie is, and what do you think exaggeration

7 is? I think it's fairly easy for anybody to know which

8 of them is a lie and which of them is exaggerated. He

9 need not speak of all of them. He can speak of those

10 he remembers. That should be enough.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, the witness has

12 answered my questions as to the lies which he has said,

13 so I thought that that perhaps should be drawn

14 attention to.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (Microphone off)

16 A. Excuse me. Let me just make something

17 clear. What lies -- what lies are there in my text?

18 What are lies? What are the lies in my text? That is

19 what you are asking.

20 MR. NIEMANN:

21 Q. That's what I want to know, yes.

22 A. I exaggerated at the very start, when I said

23 that Zejnil Delalic had come and formed a defence

24 headquarters, an underground defence headquarters. The

25 truth is that he came for the funeral of his late

1 brother --

2 Q. (No microphone)

3 A. Which --

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let him complete his

5 answers before you interpose. Kindly complete what you

6 regard as exaggeration, please.

7 A. So the truth is that because of the scourge,

8 the misfortune which befell our homeland, he joined the

9 defensive forces of our Army. And the truth is that he

10 is big businessmen, well-known businessman on the soil

11 of the former Yugoslavia, generally, and that he is

12 well-liked by the people, by our people, as a great

13 humanitarian worker. The truth is that, de facto, he

14 spent all that time in the field, and that he took

15 occasional trips to Zagreb; that he worked as a

16 charitable humanitarian worker; and also partly joined

17 in the struggle.

18 It is also true that taking the itinerary, as

19 described in my last text, he reached Vienna. That is

20 true. Everything else is my superstructure, additional

21 constructions, my exaggerations and my

22 interpretations. And if you analyse the entire text,

23 with more attention from the first to the last word,

24 then it sounds quite fine and effective,

25 chronologically observed.

1 Q. Now, do you often lie professionally, or just

2 habitually?

3 A. So that is a private question, a question I

4 view as private, and I cannot answer. I have the right

5 not to answer. But as regards this particular

6 material, I lied deliberately and consciously in order

7 to refute the lies of others which inspired me in my

8 propaganda work. And, please, bear in mind the

9 terminology used, a lie and the propaganda, two

10 different things, two different specific gravities.

11 And I should like us to speak on the subject of

12 propaganda, not lies, please.

13 Q. Now, the last segment that we saw on

14 television, where Mr. Delalic was speaking himself, and

15 reading it out, which we saw as now Exhibit 185. The

16 text of that, you didn't write that, did you?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And that was a part that was attached to the

19 video?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So, in fact, Mr. Delalic did participate in

22 the making of the tape?

23 A. No, he did not.

24 Q. Now, did Mr. Delalic request you to

25 exaggerate and lie himself?

1 A. Well, sir, if you follow the course of the

2 conversation we had today and the one on Friday, I

3 never had any contact with Mr. Delalic, Zejnil, in that

4 period. It was through Dzemo that I found out that

5 Zejnil Delalic was not happy with my work, and the

6 involvement of his family, and that he said that he was

7 grateful, that he thanked us, but that he had decided

8 to seek legal redress to the entire situation, this

9 whole injustice -- in relation to all the injustice and

10 all the evil with had been done him.

11 Q. -- Dzemal Delalic, or Mr. Ciso, did either of

12 them tell you you should lie or exaggerate?

13 A. No. On the contrary, they actually sought to

14 restrain me, to talk me out of it. After the first

15 working version was prepared, after I had prepared it,

16 then they drew attention to me, where I had exaggerated

17 things, where I did not portray faithfully the

18 situation in the field, but having the material

19 available, in front of me, the HTV material, the

20 Croatian television material that is, and having my own

21 objective in mind, I myself decided to formulate the

22 text in the way you have it before you today.

23 Q. And when you told Mr. Dzemal Delalic and

24 Mr. Ciso to prepare the video clippings, did you

25 instruct them to lie and exaggerate in the way it was

1 to be presented?

2 A. No, sir. No. I had no reason to do that.

3 Especially because they said that they had many, many

4 of those shots, clippings, and I asked them to bring as

5 many as possible to me, so that I could use them for

6 illustration purposes. I had not addressed any special

7 requests at that period. The only thing which I asked

8 them to do is when it came to the -- too long, the

9 anaemic, the still life scenes to be eliminated, then

10 this man, who was practically convicted and smeared in

11 the public and gravely accused, I wanted him to be

12 shown in the forefront. I wanted the camera to show

13 him in the forefront. And they took me literally. So

14 they had them speaking there for five or ten minutes at

15 a time.

16 MR. NIEMANN: That's all I have, Your

17 Honours.

18 JUDGE JAN: Just one question. Was this tape

19 shown on any television ever?

20 A. No. In fact, I don't know what came of it

21 after this time, after the time I gave it last to

22 Vejsil, what happened to it, where it went. I really

23 have no idea, absolutely. Basically, it is an abortive

24 project of mine, an incomplete project of mine, and I

25 regret the fact that it has been abused in this way.

1 JUDGE JAN: Thank you very much.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination?

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: No, thank you, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much,

5 Mr. Ekrem. We are very grateful for your assistance.

6 I think that is all for you. You are discharged. You

7 can go.

8 (The witness withdrew)

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do we have another

10 witness?

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, this morning we

12 submitted to you a written submission to the Trial

13 Chamber, and despite all our efforts we were unable to

14 provide a witness -- one witness over this week. In

15 addition to what I have written, I have received two

16 fax messages from Sarajevo, in the television of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina, informing me that the persons

18 supposed to appear as witnesses are unable to do so

19 because of their professional commitments, so that they

20 cannot come and appear before the Trial Chamber this

21 week.

22 In addition to everything which I have said

23 and written in our written submission, and in view of

24 these faxes which I received this morning, I could give

25 you additional information, but, please, bear with me

1 and appreciate the fact that Mr. Delalic's Defence

2 Counsel has done everything in order to follow the

3 instructions of this Court.

4 So may I now ask the usher to show you these

5 two faxes which I received this morning, so that these

6 people should be relieved of their obligation to appear

7 before this Court this week, because they are unable to

8 do so.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Niemann, have you

10 any comments on this?

11 MR. NIEMANN: No, we don't have any comments,

12 Your Honours. We are ready to proceed.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, how many

14 of the witnesses indicated here are unable to come?

15 Because you have over seven witnesses left. I see

16 there are -- how many of the witnesses -- only two here

17 who cannot come. So you still have outstanding many

18 other witnesses --

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, we have three

20 witnesses out of seven on this list because after all

21 of our attempts, today we managed to get these two

22 faxes and this was their response to our request,

23 although my colleagues in my office in Sarajevo are

24 trying to get in contact with another three witnesses

25 and their employees, to get a permission to leave. And

1 until now, we still did not receive their employer's

2 answers. Last week we interrupted Mr. Alic's business

3 trip, together with two people from Austria. Few

4 people managed to change their schedules.

5 So far, as I said, for two people, we have

6 received faxes this morning. And the remaining three

7 still did not give their final response because we

8 suspect they will remain unable to change their

9 professional obligations until the 22nd of June. And

10 they all would be available after the 16th when this

11 witness is to return from the United States. And our

12 witnesses are at disposal of the Court on the 16th

13 already. But this week we cannot bring anybody. Maybe

14 we could transfer that to the next week because from

15 what we received, nobody can come before the 16th. And

16 only a week after that we could start calling up our

17 witnesses.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This was not the

19 information you had before now. What I am saying, at

20 the time you indicated you're unable to call any of

21 these witnesses, you did not have reasons why they

22 could not come, other than they are professionally

23 engaged somehow. But not with respect to all of them.

24 This is what I mean. Those who are not so engaged

25 could have come and you could have left out those who

1 are so engaged, those who have official records to

2 tender. And all those who you perhaps you got, and not

3 involved in their professional duties and what

4 professional duties not stated. That has understated.

5 So we can find that you have not even given

6 sufficient reasons why the Trial Chamber should

7 exercise this discretion. Perhaps you took a very

8 different view as to why adjournment must be granted.

9 An adjournment is a discretionary remedy. And there

10 should be valid reasons why such an adjournment should

11 be granted. And you can see from your own position

12 that you did not give any reasons whatsoever, other

13 than professional engagement which people have. How

14 can a Trial Chamber, without knowing what the

15 professional is, go out exercising a discretion on

16 behalf of a witness?

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, if you allow.

18 As you know, we planned a list of 54 witnesses and we

19 contacted all the managers in the companies where those

20 witnesses work. And all the commanders of the unit if

21 they're in the military. And we had scheduled dated

22 July 15th. But following your instructions, we reduced

23 the list for 20 people and then we shortened our

24 questions. We put them down to a fewer number, so that

25 you would not think that we do not take your suggestion

1 seriously. And the schedule that we had with managers

2 and commanders of brigades has been significantly

3 changed. And when I saw that we would have an empty

4 period, we put our maximum efforts to press on some

5 other witnesses and for five of them we have managed

6 to, and we have seen them before the Court until

7 today. But from what you can see here, three people

8 can not come due to reasons I have stated. And then

9 the one person from the archives cannot be available

10 before the 12th, but that fax I have not received yet.

11 There's an additional person who is a soldier

12 and we do not have the army's permission for him. We

13 have done everything in our power. There are two

14 people and we spoke with their employers and we

15 arranged that they would come at the beginning of

16 July. We approached their employers to enable their

17 employees to come earlier to the Court. But we have

18 not received their answer in a written form. I can

19 only convey that to you in an oral way. We haven't

20 received faxes which would confirm that. But we are

21 doing our best. We reduced the list, which saves

22 significant amounts to the court.

23 And if during the day I receive anything

24 additional for anybody, we will forward that to you,

25 but we did not receive any official document. I do not

1 wish to obstruct the plans or life of a witness, but at

2 the same time I try to meet the requests of the

3 Chamber. And I also believe that you have accepted

4 many proposals done by the Prosecution. I approached

5 the Chamber again because I hoped that you would be

6 able to understand that these witnesses are of crucial

7 importance for our Defence. That Mr. Delalic would be

8 punished if they were not given an opportunity to

9 testify about the facts which are relevant to his

10 Defence.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: -- to be exercising

12 professional judgement. When you have witnesses who

13 have agreed to testify and you find it difficult to get

14 them to come here on their own, except with the consent

15 of their employers, as Counsel, you should know what to

16 do. And if you have failed to do that which is good

17 and in the interest of your clients, then you're

18 failing in your duties towards your client and that is

19 sufficiently negligent for any Counsel.

20 I have watched and observed the way you've

21 conducted this question of these witnesses. Your first

22 reaction was to give a blanket reason and all

23 professionally engaged and cannot come before that you

24 have named. That was the approach. That is the first

25 thing you did.

1 Now one of the custodians of records -- I

2 don't know which of them because there are two here --

3 is unable to come. What of the other one? If from the

4 beginning you knew these details. You knew how each

5 witness was engaged or had difficulties in coming.

6 Counsel should know what to do to break through such

7 difficulties and force the hands of their players to

8 release a person. But I suppose you had other ideas,

9 not seriously wanting them to come. Because you would

10 not come on the 8th to ask for these witnesses to

11 come. Nobody does that. At least no counsel. And

12 here I put counsel in its proper context, should do

13 that. Because all you are doing is to tell the Trial

14 Chamber to refuse your application. Because there's

15 nothing we can do about this. Even if we granted your

16 application, it would not mean anything. Because you

17 have been dealing with these witnesses for a long

18 time. And you should have known their problems and

19 should have known to learned how to correct these

20 difficulties.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, we scheduled

22 our witnesses according to the testimony plan put

23 together by the Chamber. If a witness goes on a

24 business trip to the United States, that is not

25 something we can do there. I would like it best that

1 we, if we could have those people here and we did

2 everything in our power for the situation to be so. I

3 don't know where Your Honours get this impression that

4 you would want to stall the proceeding. Two months

5 ago, we asked whether the custodians of record could

6 wrap up their work, but they have not. All the

7 witnesses have wished to come, but they cannot. You've

8 heard of what they think of subpoenas.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you look at one of

10 these witnesses who is unable to come, is coming to

11 give evidence in respect of conditions in Celebici.

12 These are matters in respect of which you've been

13 calling witnesses. If you knew he's unable to come

14 about now, why did you call them all here? In which

15 case they would not be in your way. Because that

16 evidence you have led in respect of some cases. Some

17 other witness have given evidence in respect of certain

18 things. And this is why when I make a comment, I do

19 not make it without supporting facts. I have my

20 reasons why I make that. Because I say very

21 experienced Counsel, you have an overview of evidence

22 of all your witnesses. And you know what each is

23 coming to say. Clearly, there's no question of telling

24 us now that after some time this witness will now come

25 to say what some other people have said, perhaps in a

1 better way. I don't know, you know your case.

2 JUDGE JAN: It is interesting. You are

3 asking us to wait to the convenience of the witness.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE JAN: You're telling the Court to wait

6 to the convenience of the witnesses. This is a very

7 interesting position to take.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: No, Your Honours. We gave an

9 alternative suggestion. This witness in question, he

10 was on a seminar in Washington and has been there since

11 the half of May. And I knew that he would be here on

12 the 16th. But had we not given up the 20 witnesses, he

13 would have been here at the time beginning of June. So

14 we planned that we also at that time call up the

15 custodian of record. And by your suggestions, we

16 reduced the number of witnesses. I believe this is

17 also in the Defence's interest not to repeat things.

18 But this poses a new obstacle to us. Because

19 from this courtroom we could not react in any other

20 way, which would be more efficient. We have brought

21 five people who were planned to come later. But with

22 these five, we did not manage to deal with the problems

23 of other witnesses who could, according to the

24 schedule, come only come in July. But now we can now

25 see that they cannot be here before the 16th. This was

1 not a mistake on the part of the Defence or the

2 witness.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You tendered your reply

4 to the Prosecution's request for your list of

5 witnesses. Have you seen your reply? It's not a

6 question of inability to get them, to get your

7 witnesses. The only reason there was that you've

8 appealed against a ruling and, therefore, you could not

9 give a list of witnesses. Not because your witnesses

10 cannot be called. I hope I am not wrong in

11 interpreting any way I have done. You look at your

12 response. The 5th of June, that was your response to

13 the Prosecution's request for a list of witnesses.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, it is possible

15 that we responded to the Prosecution, but I have stated

16 the same arguments as I am stating today to you before

17 you made your decision. And this was also mentioned in

18 the appeal on the sequence of calling up witnesses. So

19 this was always the arguments connected to the

20 professional inability, professional schedule of

21 witnesses to come and we couldn't influence it. We did

22 our best to adjust our plan to the Chamber. So my

23 arguments from before are written appeal and what we

24 are approaching you with today are based on the same

25 reasoning.

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Not the position in your

2 -- list of witnesses dated 2nd of June. The list of

3 witnesses, it's to 14. And the ones you say cannot

4 appear because of professional duties or professional

5 engagements. Now when I looked at it at that time, it

6 did not even specify which of them it was against. It

7 was a blanket condition for all of them.

8 But I know that's not possible. It cannot be

9 all of them. If at that time you knew only one, two,

10 three or so are those who are engaged, what of the

11 other ones who were not so involved? They too could

12 not come. This is the assumption you had. That

13 because three cannot, the others also could not. That

14 is not the way to treat a Trial Chamber.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: I apologise, Your Honours, if

16 you understood me that way. All 14 were unable to

17 come. But in the meantime, through family connections,

18 we found Mr. Alic in Austria and he could interrupt his

19 professional duties for awhile and come here. And then

20 also Mr. Velic, whose wife recently passed away, we

21 persuaded him to come here as well as two people from

22 Austria. All 14, I repeat, did have obligations, but

23 five of them were able to change circumstances and

24 appear before the Chamber. But for all the others,

25 until at this moment, we were unable to. And we have

1 an official report for three and for the other three we

2 are missing an official report. But we did our best.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Delalic is in

4 custody.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: I do know, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: People who are unable to

7 give up their professional engagements in the interest

8 of someone who is in custody. This is a more important

9 thing. He's in custody,. He wants his case closed, so

10 that you know what else to do. And we've already

11 applied to the Trial Chamber as to how to organise his

12 Defence in respect of closing it and then making a

13 submission. You've done that. Then why do these

14 questions arise about people who are unable to come?

15 Can't you see the conflict between that desire to

16 expedite trial and the possibility of your witness

17 coming to testify? When we should expedite a trial,

18 you give yourself, the Prosecution and for the Trial

19 Chamber to decide the procedure to be adopted. At the

20 same time you're not getting your witnesses here, so

21 that the case will be closed. And the procedure you

22 are advocating should be adopted.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honours. It might

24 look contradictory to our... But since the beginning

25 of the separation of proceedings, we wanted to expedite

1 the proceeding as much as possible. But between a

2 quick and a fair trial, there's a difference because we

3 would need only several days for these few witnesses.

4 And this would be crucial for the Defence to hear what

5 they have to testify about. And this is in the best

6 interest of my client, especially because like some of

7 them like, Byron Deric (phoen), provided us with a tape

8 which was submitted and accepted as evidence concerning

9 the conditions in the camp in Celebici. And they're

10 important so you get a picture of the real truth. And

11 they are in the best interest of the accused.

12 And the Prosecution was also in a similar

13 position. And then they would approach us, the

14 Defence, to have an understanding for the obstacles

15 they had in bringing their witnesses, which we did, we

16 met their request. And this would be in the best

17 interest of the Defence. And I plead to you that this

18 time you would have an understanding for us and within

19 the three days, we might be able to listen to

20 testimonies of all those witnesses.

21 If somebody calls me up and tells me that the

22 witness could come here tomorrow, we would be happy to

23 have that. But there was no way. I spoke to my

24 colleagues in my office in Sarajevo and out of all the

25 requests we sent to employers, we received only three.

1 For one of them it is stated he is unavailable until

2 the 12th of July and I do not intend to wait for him

3 until then. We will then skip that witness. But there

4 are certain witnesses who could come earlier.

5 JUDGE JAN: I was just wondering if the

6 football final was more important than the proceedings

7 in this Court. I was just wondering.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I cannot

9 comment on that. We have an alternative request. If

10 we think that this particular witness should be here,

11 we would ask of you to issue a subpoena. But in the

12 sense of amicus curiae, what does it mean for people

13 who wish to come in our conditions? You've heard five

14 witnesses who were delivered a subpoena. They all

15 wanted to come even without it. But the issue is

16 whether they can come at the time appropriate for the

17 Chamber.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Okay, we give your

19 ruling after the break at 2.30 when we reassemble.

20 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.55 p.m.

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22

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24

25

1 --- On resuming at 2.40 p.m.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I indicated when we were

3 rising that we'll give a short ruling now in respect of

4 the arguments and we'll follow this up with a more

5 comprehensive ruling.

6 Now, this ruling is on the submission brought

7 by Ms. Residovic on the alternative request for renewed

8 consideration of Delalic's motion for adjournment until

9 the June 22nd, 1998, or a request for issue of

10 subpoenas to individuals, and request for assistance to

11 the Government of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

12 Now , this morning -- I think this motion was

13 filed this morning. It was proceeded by the motion on

14 the 2nd of June where, in the list of witnesses to be

15 called, Counsel indicated that the witnesses numbers 8

16 to 14 will be unable to attend to testify, because they

17 have indicated their inability to travel to The Hague

18 before the week 22nd to the 26th June.

19 Counsel was aware that the current witnesses

20 for the accused, who listed first to seven, were likely

21 to conclude giving the evidence not later than Monday,

22 the 8th of June. The Trial Chamber's task, which is

23 revising the lists submitted on the 2nd June, rejected

24 the application and told Counsel to continue with the

25 list of witnesses without interruption.

1 The application for adjournment was

2 rejected. Counsel was told, clearly and firmly, to

3 close the case of the accused at the conclusion of the

4 last available witness.

5 On the 3rd June, Counsel gave notice of

6 appeal against the decision of the Trial Chamber. On

7 the 4th of June, the Prosecution filed a motion seeking

8 disclosure of the names of the witnesses of the first

9 accused. On the 5th of June, the first accused replied

10 that, in view of the notice of appeal filed, there is

11 no obligation to give such notice 'til after the

12 termination of their appeal.

13 The application filed this morning before the

14 Trial Chamber seeks, (a), adjournment 'til 22nd, June

15 '98, and (b), request to issue subpoenas to

16 individuals and to the Government of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 It is interesting to observe that the grounds

19 for adjournment is that the witnesses for the accused

20 are unable to reschedule their commitments to be able

21 to appear in the Trial Chamber for the 22nd to 26th of

22 June. This is an insufficient reason to support the

23 application for adjournment.

24 Counsel is familiar with the case of the

25 accused, knows the witnesses and their testimony.

1 Counsel had sufficient time to organise its witnesses,

2 consistent with their private engagements. It is

3 clearly not for the Trial Chamber to wait for their

4 convenience, except where this is justified by the

5 circumstances. The witnesses sought to be called have

6 been known to cancel for quite a long time, and their

7 commitment should have been known and taken into

8 account in the calling of witnesses.

9 Counsel is only today applying for subpoenas

10 for witnesses to appear. There is no list of the names

11 of witnesses or why subpoenas should be issued.

12 Counsel has not disclosed that witnesses cannot appear

13 to give evidence without the issue of subpoenas. We

14 also asked for request for assistance under Article 29

15 of the Tribunal Statutes through the Government of

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina for assistance. There is no

17 evidence that that government has been approached for

18 assistance and she has refused to do so.

19 It is well settled that the granting of an

20 adjournment is exercise of a judicial discretion. A

21 Trial Chamber being approached for the exercise of that

22 distraction must be giving credible reasons why the

23 application should be granted.

24 I examined the reasons given by Counsel and

25 find no basis on which it could exercise a discretion

1 to grant both the adjournment sought and the

2 application for the subpoenas. We reject the

3 application.

4 Now, as it is, Counsel should know what to

5 do, and we call upon Counsel to decide to close its

6 case. I am following up with this. We expect Counsel

7 for the second accused to call evidence in respect of

8 the second accused on the 22nd of June. We've already

9 lost the whole of this week because of what I regard as

10 ineffectiveness in Counsel trying to put forward its

11 witnesses, but we expect Counsel for Mucic to lead

12 evidence from the 22nd of June. Thank you.

13 I think this is all we have for the day and

14 nothing more. So the Trial Chamber will now rise.

15 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

16 2.50 p.m., to be reconvened on

17 Tuesday, on the 9th day of June,

18 1998, at 10.00 a.m.

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