1 Friday, 17 July 1998

2 --- Upon commencing at 10.05 a.m.

3 (Open session)

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and

5 gentlemen. May we have the appearances, please?

6 MR. TURONE: Good morning, Your Honours, my

7 name is Turone and I appear with Mr. Cowles and

8 Mr. Huber for the Prosecution. Thank you.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have appearances

10 for the Defence, please?

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

12 My name is Edina Residovic, Defence counsel for

13 Mr. Zejnil Delalic, appearing on behalf of

14 Mr. Delalic. Along with me is Professor Eugene

15 O'Sullivan from Canada.

16 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, Your Honours, I'm

17 Zeljko Olujic, representing Zdravko Mucic, along with

18 my co-counsel Niko Duric. Along with your permission,

19 Your Honours, in view of yesterday's criticism of

20 Mrs. Buturovic, who was a member of our team, we have

21 seen that the Defence of the fourth accused was

22 misled. We feel that the Defence counsel for the

23 fourth accused owes an apology to Mrs. Nihada

24 Buturovic.

25 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

1 My name is Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo,

2 appearing on behalf of Mr. Hazim Delic, along with

3 Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney from Houston Texas.

4 MS. McMURREY: Good morning, Your Honours,

5 I'm Cynthia McMurrey and I represent Esad Landzo, along

6 with two co-counsel, Nancy Boler and Calvin Saunders.

7 I would like to respond to Mr. Olujic, Your Honour. I

8 certainly do apologise to Ms. Buturovic if anything was

9 said about these two witnesses, because they came in

10 and cleared it up. All I had to go by was what the

11 Victims and Witnesses Unit told me, and maybe there

12 were some conclusions jumped to that were improper

13 under the heat of the moment. I do apologise as far as

14 those two witnesses are concerned.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Very well said. I

16 think, Mr. Olujic, that that is acceptable to you?

17 MR. OLUJIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Almost everyone, at

19 first blush, was misled until the witness explained

20 exactly why Mrs. Buturovic was invited to assist them.

21 Thank you.

22 You may proceed with your witness. Swear the

23 witness.

24 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

25 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

1 truth.

2 THE INTERPRETER: May the witness's

3 microphone be switched on, please?

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly switch on the

5 microphone of the witness.

6 MS. McMURREY: May it please the court?

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed.

8 WITNESS: MIRSAD LJELJAK

9 Examined by Ms. McMurrey

10 Q. Good morning.

11 A. Good morning, Your Honours. I wish you

12 success in this morning's work.

13 Q. Would you state your full name for the Trial

14 Chamber, please?

15 A. My name is Dr. Mirsad Ljeljak. I was born in

16 1952 in the village of Postoljani, the Municipality of

17 Nevesinje. I completed elementary school in Jablanica,

18 secondary medical school in Mostar. I studied medicine

19 at the School of Medicine in Sarajevo from which I

20 graduated in 1970. After practical training, which I

21 went through in Mostar and the clinical centre in

22 Sarajevo. As of 1980, I'm permanently employed in the

23 medical centre in Konjic.

24 In 1987, 1988, I went to attend

25 specialisation courses in paediatrics and neonatology.

1 In 1991, I completed my post-graduate studies and

2 returned to the medical centre in Konjic where I have

3 been working ever since. I'm working as

4 a paediatrician and I'm assistant manager for primary

5 medical protection in the medical centre in Konjic.

6 Q. Thank you very much. I'd like to ask you,

7 you and I had never met before late last night, had we?

8 A. Yes, last night. We met for the first time

9 last night.

10 Q. You were the doctor in Konjic, I missed the

11 date, starting in about 1979 and 1980 is when you began

12 practising medicine in the Konjic Municipality?

13 A. Yes. I graduated medicine in 1979. Then I

14 had a year of in-house training, and in 1980, I became

15 permanently employed in the infirmary in Konjic.

16 Q. I would like to ask you how you know a young

17 man named Esad Landzo?

18 A. When I became a doctor and came to practice

19 in Konjic, I worked in the Department for Occupational

20 Medicine and then in the emergency centre. In 1983,

21 having a certain affinity towards paediatrics, I worked

22 in the children's department. This was in 1983, 1984.

23 It was there, as a relatively young physician, that I

24 met with a patient whose name was Esad Landzo. He was

25 nine or ten years old at the time and was suffering

1 from obstructive recidivist bronchitis.

2 He was treated in the children's department,

3 and the diagnostic procedures that we could do were

4 done. Allergy tests were carried out, and the

5 diagnosis established was allergy to inhalation

6 allergens, mostly dust. Coming to the children's

7 department, he manifested a typical manifestation

8 of bronchitis, heavy breathing, shortness of breath,

9 whistling in the chest. He was treated

10 with bronchodilatators, Ventaline syrup that we had.

11 Occasionally he would receive infusion, and he was

12 given Dehalar (Phon). This was the period of his

13 treatment. He was asthenic, thin, inclined towards

14 infections of respiratory organs, bronchitis, which

15 would trigger his breathing problems.

16 Later on, I left for my specialisation, and I

17 came across Esad Landzo again in 1993 when I had become

18 a paediatrician. He had grown out of my area of

19 responsibility, because he was over 14 and I was

20 responsible for treating children up to the age of 14.

21 Then, again, I think it was in 1993 that I came across

22 Esad for the first time when we set up an infirmary in

23 the Musala camp for the prisoners, and Esad Landzo was

24 one of the prisoners.

25 The infirmary worked two hours a day, and he

1 came to the infirmary on a couple of occasions. I

2 intervened as a physician, treating him for obstructive

3 difficulties in breathing. He would come into the

4 surgery, which we had established in the camp, short of

5 breath, whistling in the chest. He would be blue in

6 the face. Whenever he came for a check-up, he was

7 escorted by guards. We were unable to isolate him at

8 the time because the war was in full swing in Konjic,

9 and the shelling occurred on a daily basis. Then we

10 would treat him with aminophylline, corticoid steroids

11 in the infirmary itself, and the attack would subside,

12 and he would be returned to the premise where he would

13 stay with the other prisoners.

14 We recommended in the case of an attack that

15 he should report to the emergency service, and he did

16 contact them on a couple of occasions escorted by

17 guards. He would be given injections or one or two

18 tablets of Ventaline, which he could take in the case

19 of an attack. We didn't dare give him more so that he

20 shouldn't abuse those pills. After all, he was a

21 prisoner. We just gave him one or two that he should

22 take in the event of an attack.

23 Therefore, my knowledge of Esad Landzo is

24 based on my knowledge of him as a patient who would

25 come for treatment, and I was the physician who treated

1 him.

2 Q. Dr. Ljeljak, I would like to now, with the

3 usher's assistance, ask that you be shown this

4 document. Here is the English version of it also. If

5 you just show the doctor that one. I would like to ask

6 you some questions before you get the document. You

7 met with a Mr. Mustafa Brackovic in 1996; is that

8 right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. At that time, you -- I mean, you have a lot

11 of patients that you see, but in 1996, did you review

12 the records of Esad Landzo?

13 A. I did review Esad Landzo's medical records

14 because, after all, I couldn't remember exactly who it

15 was. So I wanted to see what he was treated for at the

16 time, as we were treating him as an asthmatic patient

17 in the prison. When I looked through the records, I

18 saw all these things that I have just told you about.

19 Q. If you just wait one second. I want to make

20 sure.

21 MS. McMURREY: The Prosecution has had this

22 in their possession since 1996; is that correct?

23 MR. TURONE: Yes.

24 MS. McMURREY: Okay, thank you very much.

25 Q. I would like to ask you, when you looked at

1 these records, did you remember who Esad was and you

2 remembered about his problems, his treatment and --

3 A. Yes, of course, indeed I did. When he came

4 to see me in the prison I said, "Look at you. You

5 haven't improved at all. You haven't grown." He

6 remained asthenic, skinny, and he had the same problems

7 constantly. So I hadn't seen him for five or six years

8 until I treated him as a prisoner. I gave these

9 medical reports to his attorney at the time,

10 Mr. Brackovic, who insisted on it.

11 Q. Let me go back. When you say you gave these

12 reports to Mr. Brackovic, you gave him the original of

13 the medical reports because that's what's done in

14 Bosnia in preparation for court?

15 A. Yes, yes, only copies on the 14th of

16 November, 1996.

17 Q. Then is it true that Mr. Brackovic's

18 briefcase was stolen in Zagreb so that the original

19 document was lost?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did Mr. Brackovic come back to you and talk

22 to you about this?

23 A. He came for a second time to inform me that

24 the medical reports of his clients had been lost, that

25 his briefcase had been stolen at the airport. He

1 showed me a document, a certificate, certifying that

2 his luggage had been lost. I said that I would not

3 write any kinds of reports or statements or anything

4 else to the Tribunal, but that I would go in person to

5 testify and report about this.

6 We spoke about this last night. I wish to

7 underline that I was always ready to cooperate and to

8 provide anything that I could as a professional, as a

9 practising physician. So I don't know really why I had

10 to be addressed with a subpoena.

11 Q. I want you to be able to address the court

12 about this issue because you were very angry at me at

13 first last night, weren't you?

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE JAN: You were responsible for his

16 getting a subpoena.

17 MS. McMURREY: Oh, yes, Your Honour, I'm

18 accepting full responsibility. We discussed this last

19 night, that it's common in my jurisdiction, and that

20 it's no reflection on him personally whatsoever. I

21 think we made peace.

22 A. I forgave the lady. You have my

23 forgiveness.

24 Q. Thank you very much. Now, when Mr. Brackovic

25 came back to you with the official document, that the

1 original had been missing, you prepared a summary of

2 your treatment and diagnosis of Mr. Landzo at that

3 time, didn't you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is that the summary which is in the form of

6 an affidavit under Bosnian law about what you

7 remembered at that time?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And it bears your signature?

10 A. Yes, and the date it was issued.

11 MS. McMURREY: I would like to introduce this

12 document into evidence in support of Dr. Ljeljak's

13 testimony. It was made in 1996, so it replaces the

14 official medical records because they are totally

15 unavailable.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is document

17 indicated as D71/4, is it?

18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, it is, Defence document

19 D71/4.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Dated 14th November,

21 1996.

22 MS. McMURREY: That's correct, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is admitted.

24 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.

25 Q. I want to go back to your diagnosis and

1 treatment of Mr. Landzo just a little bit. I would

2 like for you to tell us what is asthma? What

3 is bronchitis under the Bosnian law -- I'm sorry, under

4 your training in Bosnia.

5 A. May I correct you? It cannot be according to

6 Bosnian law. We, in Bosnia, respect world standards

7 and we use world literature. Asthma is a chronic

8 disease, condition, which manifests itself in shortness

9 of breath, coughing and choking. What provokes it?

10 There is a division among scientists; there are several

11 theories. Even though we speak about asthma as a

12 single disease, there will always be certain dilemmas,

13 but modern medicine and the doctrine defines asthma

14 according to its causes. There's allergic asthma,

15 infectious asthma, a mixed form of asthma, an asthma

16 linked to psychological factors, neurogenic changes

17 that occur in the organism.

18 But for asthma to develop, there has to be a

19 genetic inclination, a basis on which it will develop.

20 Because when all of us breathe in dust, we will not,

21 all of us, get an asthmatic attack. When we smoke or

22 other impurities in the air, these triggers will not

23 provoke an asthma. But with a patient, they will. So

24 there has to be a predisposition for asthma and for

25 bronchitis.

1 Therefore, the development of this condition

2 is viewed by some in literature as being topism (Phon),

3 that is, an inclination, an inborn inclination,

4 something genetic, something running in the family.

5 Some of these theories are well-founded; sometimes they

6 are not. For instance, allergic asthma can be easily

7 be proven. You do the tests. You do the history of

8 the disease. But the infectious, neurogenic, mixed

9 forms of asthma, for them, it is more difficult to

10 establish the cause, and this would require expertise

11 on the part of expert witnesses, forensic experts.

12 Q. Thank you very much. Let me ask you, in

13 your -- I'm not going to ask you an opinion.

14 Mr. Landzo was suffering from something called the

15 mixed version of asthma? You tell me. Was it

16 strictly allergic or was it mixed?

17 A. Let me see. At first, it was an allergic

18 type of asthma, because, according to tests, he was

19 allergic to standard allergens like dust and other

20 elements found in the environment. Then with the

21 strengthening of immunology and the defensive

22 mechanisms in the body with the end of puberty and

23 growth, 70 per cent of asthma patients recover and are

24 fully treated, but 30 per cent become chronic, and 15

25 per cent can become very severe sufferers. But in

1 these cases, things are not so simple.

2 Q. Because he had suffered from asthma as a

3 young man also, would you term him as chronic or would

4 you -- because most people outgrow that young asthma, a

5 lot of people do. But if they maintain it, is his a

6 more severe form?

7 A. Well, a more severe form of asthma is the

8 condition if the patient, in the presence of triggering

9 factors, if it is an allergic asthma, dust, its

10 components, animal hair, pollen, flowers, these things

11 may trigger an asthmatic attack. However, if these

12 attacks are repeated frequently, if they are once or

13 twice a week, and if the patient needs to constantly

14 use bronchodilatators, Ventaline or other dilatators,

15 whether they are taken orally or in the form of tablets

16 or intravenously, the attack can be checked.

17 If the attack is repeated with increasing

18 frequency, it can be considered chronic. A chronic

19 form of asthma, because to treat asthma -- I mean, I

20 think that asthma has to be treated immediately.

21 Earlier on, it was thought that it had to be treated

22 only at the end of the growth period, but now the

23 position is quite different. An asthmatic patient

24 needs to be treated.

25 What are the consequences of chronic asthma?

1 It has an effect on the cardiac and respiratory

2 system. We will have pulmonary hypertension, heart

3 problems, and cardiac pulmonary complications can be

4 provoked by chronic asthma, if it becomes chronic.

5 MR. COWLES: Excuse me, Your Honours. We

6 would like to object at this point. This is theory.

7 It has nothing to do with the specific defendant. It's

8 irrelevant.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think so. I

10 don't think so. He is indicating the possibilities of

11 his activities. You may go on.

12 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.

13 Q. Dr. Ljeljak, the psychogenic asthma that you

14 talked about, is that triggered by stress or some kind

15 of medical condition?

16 A. Those are the latest views about the

17 neurogenic factors contributing to asthma. This is the

18 neurogenic theory which explains that through the

19 parasympathetic fibres, the muscles and the glands are

20 elevated. Any stress, a psychosomatic or emotional

21 stress, can be the triggering factor for asthma, but

22 again there must be a basis for this disease, a prior

23 basis, because all of us have problems. We are all

24 under stress. We may become angry for various reasons,

25 but we will not get an asthmatic attack. But those

1 people who have an inclination, among them, a larger

2 number will certainly have asthmatic attacks.

3 Q. I want to ask you kind of a silly question

4 right now, but I know it's something that needs to be

5 addressed. You would never say, "You don't get asthma

6 because your mamma doesn't love you," would you?

7 A. It's a silly question.

8 Q. I said it was, but I'm anticipating the

9 question in one moment. It's silly. There's no basis

10 for that, would you say, unless there's a prior

11 existing mental condition that you wouldn't know

12 about?

13 MR. COWLES: Well, then I object. It calls

14 for pure speculation.

15 MS. McMURREY: That's fine if he wants to

16 object to Mr. Moran's question in a minute. I'll move

17 forward. We know what I'm saying.

18 Q. One more thing, Dr. Ljeljak. In Bosnia,

19 there are certain things known as people's remedies or,

20 as we say in Texas, home remedies; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is a common home remedy for asthma, as a

23 people's remedy, does it have to do with goat's fat and

24 goat's milk and soaking -- wearing goat's fat around

25 your neck, something like that? Can you explain that

1 to the court?

2 A. Yes, in Bosnia, in rural areas, home

3 remedies, well-developed, and this can also be

4 explained by the lack of education among the

5 population. The area that I come from, and also the

6 area around Konjic, even to this day, working as a

7 paediatrician, when a child has trouble breathing, when

8 he is coughing, then the mother will say, "I have got a

9 goat and I am giving him goat's milk." And then, when

10 the goat gets older, they slaughter it, they take out

11 the fat, they spread the fat on a piece of linen and

12 they put it on the chest of children, apparently to

13 treat the asthma.

14 Q. Okay.

15 MS. McMURREY: Thank you very much, Dr.

16 Ljeljak, I pass the witness, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination?

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, Mr. Delalic's

19 Defence has no questions for this witness.

20 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, Mr. Zdravko

21 Mucic's Defence has no questions for this witness.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are you starting with an

23 anticipated question?

24 MR. MORAN: With what, Your Honour? With not

25 loving your mama? No, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE JAN: You want to be better informed

2 about testimony?

3 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, since I have a

4 chance to have a free expert here to tell us about it.

5 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I'm sorry, this

6 doctor has not been called as an expert witness, he is

7 called as a fact witness. He cannot base an opinion on

8 the ultimate issues in the case, only about his

9 treatment of Mr. Landzo.

10 MR. MORAN: Doctor, my name is Tom Moran and

11 I represent a man named Hazim Delic and I just have

12 about three questions for you.

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Moran

14 Q. The first one was, I want to talk about the

15 medical records that you looked at. Nobody is saying

16 you did anything wrong, because the records aren't

17 here, I just want to know --

18 A. I apologise, Hazim Delic's medical record,

19 you mentioned it.

20 Q. I didn't get the translation.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Landzo's medical record.

22 MR. MORAN:

23 Q. I am not asking about Hazim's medical

24 records. I am just talking about medical records in

25 general. During the war in Konjic, did --

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- you and your colleagues keep good medical

3 records on your patients?

4 A. Let me tell you, in a war, in the turmoil of

5 war, to have good medical records is very difficult, it

6 was very difficult. It was very difficult. When we

7 didn't have even enough paper or pencils and the

8 patient's life was at stake, wounded person, so we

9 tried more to keep these people healthy than to write

10 their state down.

11 But after 1994, after Dayton in 1995, we have

12 very good medical records. We have them all.

13 Q. So it would not be unusual for the Konjic

14 Medical Centre to not have good records for, say, some

15 surgery performed in May of 1992, not have real

16 complete records?

17 A. Let me tell you something. I am not a

18 surgeon, I am a paediatrician.

19 Q. I understand.

20 A. And, therefore, you should ask a surgeon,

21 people who keep medical records and these histories on

22 these cases. I am in charge of primary health

23 protection and not hospital protection, nole matangari

24 (Phon) as far as hospital care is concerned.

25 MR. MORAN: Okay. Your Honour, I have no

1 further questions.

2 JUDGE JAN: There were only two?

3 MR. MORAN: There were only two. I just

4 wanted to know about medical records, Judge. What he

5 has to say here does not affect my client directly at

6 all.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any --

8 MR. COWLES: The Prosecution has no questions

9 for this doctor, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. Thank you

11 very much.

12 MS. McMURREY: No need for re-direct.

13 JUDGE JAN: Sorry to have been deprived of

14 re-direct.

15 MS. McMURREY: No, I don't need it, but thank

16 you very much. Thank you, doctor.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much,

18 doctor, you have been very helpful, so you are

19 discharged.

20 (The witness withdrew)

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let's have your next

22 witness.

23 MS. BOLER: Your Honours, our next -- our

24 next witness is the custodian of medical records at

25 Konjic Hospital and her name is Menita Faladzic.

1 (The witness enters)

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Swear the witness,

3 please.

4 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I'll

5 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

6 truth.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Take your seat, please.

8 THE WITNESS: Menita Faladzic

9 Examined by Ms. Boler

10 Q. Good morning, Ms. Faladzic. The first thing

11 I would like you to do is correct my pronunciation,

12 because my pronunciation drew some smiles from the

13 co-defendant, so correct me, please.

14 A. Faladzic, Menita Faladzic.

15 Q. Ms. Faladzic, please tell us your position,

16 what you do for a living?

17 A. In fact, I am a medical -- an economic

18 technician. I came to the hospital during the war and

19 worked as a nurse because that was necessary. Later

20 on, I started attending medical school, which I

21 interrupted because I was pregnant. I hope I'll

22 continue it. And now I am archivist and all the

23 related jobs, I do all the related jobs in the

24 hospital.

25 Q. Just tell me briefly what an archivist is?

1 A. My job consists of -- we have all the

2 patients in hospital. I take their case histories. I

3 process them, taking into account everything that has

4 been done for the patient from his admittance to

5 hospital. At the end of the month, all these case

6 histories are saved, stored in the archives and then I

7 also write the report for the whole month. The

8 archives are opened and I store it in the archives.

9 And these documents are available for anyone who may

10 need them and with the director's certificate, I open

11 the archives and make this case history available and

12 give the applicant a copy, while the original is kept

13 in the archives.

14 Q. You anticipated my next question. My next

15 question was, when a person comes to Konjic Hospital to

16 request medical records, what is the procedure then for

17 obtaining those medical records?

18 A. The person must have a request in writing. I

19 give it to the director of the hospital and when he

20 gives me permission, I open the archives and issue a

21 copy of the case history. I have been proceeding like

22 this since 1995. The person will return the copy if --

23 when he no longer needs it.

24 Q. I am not clear on the last part. When you

25 give someone a copy, is it theirs to keep permanently,

1 or are they requested to return it when they no longer

2 need it? I did not understand the last part of your

3 answer?

4 A. It depends, it depends on the patient. If he

5 doesn't need it, he will return it, give it back to

6 us. If he does need it, he will keep it.

7 Q. You mentioned something just a minute ago

8 about the difference between giving originals and

9 giving copies. Could you clarify when, if ever, you

10 give someone an original copy?

11 A. It is very rare. It is very rare that we

12 give an original. No, the original is always kept in

13 the archives. We do issue copies, but not the

14 original.

15 Q. If you ever do issue an original, do you have

16 some policy for recording that an original was given to

17 that person so that that stays in your records as

18 well?

19 A. It has not happened since I have been working

20 in the hospital.

21 Q. And you mentioned, just a minute ago that

22 you, when a person comes and requests records and you

23 make those records available, that, first, your -- I

24 believe you said that the director of the hospital has

25 to sign for those, was that your statement?

1 A. That is right.

2 Q. Who is the director of Konjic Hospital?

3 A. The director is Dr. Sead Buturovic, who is

4 also a surgeon in the Konjic Hospital.

5 Q. Is it your testimony that Dr. Buturovic is

6 the one who is the final authority, then, for whether

7 or not these records are released?

8 A. Yes, that is correct.

9 Q. You too received a subpoena to come and

10 testify here in The Hague, didn't you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And your reaction was the same as most of the

13 people, that you came on the plane to The Hague with,

14 correct?

15 A. Yes, that's normal.

16 Q. And we discussed this when we met last

17 night?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you for coming, we're glad you're

20 here. Please tell the Court, briefly, your reaction --

21 let me back up. How did you first know that you had a

22 subpoena to come here?

23 JUDGE JAN: Is it really relevant?

24 MS. BOLER: I'll move along.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can you put to her what

1 you want her to give to you.

2 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, that's fine.

3 JUDGE JAN: Unless you want to declare her

4 hostile.

5 MS. BOLER: No, I don't want to declare her

6 hostile at all.

7 Q. There is a follow-up question that I'll just

8 go ahead and ask you now. Do you have access, you,

9 yourself, personally, to medical records that were a

10 part of the Konjic Hospital prior to your arrival there

11 in 1995?

12 A. No, no, my -- since 1995, I can guarantee

13 that, not until then.

14 Q. So when you received this subpoena, was your

15 reaction that you were the wrong person to have been

16 given this subpoena?

17 A. Of course.

18 Q. Did you express that concern to Dr.

19 Buturovic?

20 A. Of course.

21 Q. And what was --

22 A. Certainly.

23 Q. What was his reaction?

24 A. He said if you have to go, you have to go.

25 If you've been subpoenaed, you have to go there and

1 give testimony.

2 Q. Do you believe that -- let me start again.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You wanted the keeper of

4 the records, isn't it?

5 MS. BOLER: I didn't understand the first

6 part of your question.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You wanted the keeper of

8 the records in the Konjic Hospital?

9 MS. BOLER: We sent a subpoena to the

10 custodian of records.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is what she is.

12 MS. BOLER:

13 Q. Let me just ask you. Is there anybody else

14 at the hospital that could have come to The Hague and

15 brought those records? Is there anyone at the hospital

16 who had authority to get to these records prior to

17 1995?

18 A. I don't know that. You asked for the

19 archivist, the custodian, and they sent me, but I have

20 been working since 1995. Who worked there before me, I

21 don't know.

22 Q. It's your feeling that you're the wrong

23 person to be here, right?

24 MR. COWLES: Your Honour, we object.

25 THE WITNESS: A 100 per cent.

1 MS. BOLER: I'll move on.

2 Q. Specifically, the subpoena asked you to bring

3 medical records for Esad Landzo, Mirko Babic and Branko

4 Gotovac; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And is it -- let me ask you the difference in

7 record keeping -- let me back up. Your testimony was

8 that you started working at the Konjic Hospital in this

9 capacity in 1995, correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And will you explain to the Court the

12 difference in record keeping under your direction and

13 the state of the records prior to your arrival?

14 A. What I am doing is okay, I try everything to

15 be orderly, so that a report is written every month.

16 Until then, I don't know what the situation was. I

17 have no information on that. Although, I do know that

18 a large part of the old archives are in the cellars. A

19 great deal of it was destroyed by shelling, by fire.

20 Q. That was going to be my next question. That

21 you're aware that some of these -- that these records

22 do exist, they're just not available to you to bring

23 here, correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And do you know who, besides -- do you know

1 who has access to the area where these old records are

2 kept?

3 A. I can't tell you, I don't know.

4 Q. As director of the hospital, does Dr.

5 Buturovic have access to these records?

6 A. Probably, yes.

7 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, just a minute. Your

8 Honour, at this time, I pass the witness.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, Mr. Delalic's

10 Defence has no questions for this witness.

11 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honour, we have no

12 questions for this witness.

13 MR. MORAN: May it please the Court?

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Moran

15 Q. Hi, ma'am, my name is Tom Moran and I

16 represent a man named Hazim Delic who is from the

17 Konjic area. And I am confused and I am hoping you can

18 unconfuse me. You say that you've been the custodian

19 of records at the hospital since 1995 and you have to

20 say "yes" or "no" because there are people that are

21 writing it down, they're record custodians, just like

22 you are.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And there are, of course, people who are

25 living in Konjic who were born and treated at the

1 hospital prior to 1995, you, for instance?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And what you're telling us is that if you go

4 to your doctor, or Hazim goes to his doctor in Konjic,

5 and his doctor wants to look at some records from the

6 hospital prior to the time you took the job as records

7 custodian, they're just not available? Is that your

8 testimony here?

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think she said

10 that.

11 MR. MORAN:

12 Q. Or you can't get them or they're not around

13 or you don't have access to them?

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: She didn't say anything

15 like that. She was merely being asked whether there

16 were other records, which she did not keep. That's all.

17 MR. MORAN: Yes.

18 Q. You can not go to the files of the Konjic

19 General Hospital and pull out a file for someone who

20 was treated in a medical record, for someone who was

21 treated in 1991 or 1989, is that your testimony here

22 today?

23 A. No, let me tell you something. I said,

24 clearly, that I have been working since 1995 and since

25 then I can guarantee for everything. I started working

1 in the hospital then, before that I don't know what

2 happened.

3 Q. Sure there may not be records prior to the

4 time you started working there, they may have been

5 destroyed in a fire, fires happen to record centres, I

6 understand that. What I am getting at is, did you look

7 for these records that people asked you to bring, these

8 pre-1995 records? Did you look in the cellar where

9 all these records are?

10 A. What I found are case histories of 1994, what

11 I was able to find of the patients who were in

12 hospital.

13 Q. Okay, that's fine. That's all. You didn't

14 find anything prior to 1994?

15 A. No, if I had found them, I would have brought

16 them here.

17 Q. You've unconfused me, ma'am, and I thank you

18 very much.

19 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I pass the witness.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any questions?

21 MR. COWLES: The Prosecution has no

22 questions, Your Honour, thank you.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now let me find out what

24 you really meant.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are you saying that as a

1 keeper of the records in Konjic Hospital, you cannot

2 find records earlier than 1994 or '95?

3 A. What I found, Your Honours, so far, that is

4 for 1994. The rest, many documents were destroyed in

5 fire. Something for 1994, case histories of patients

6 who are not here, who are not concerned here.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You have no records

8 earlier than that, records, 1990, 1991, 1989? Because

9 you are a keeper of the records of the hospital, and

10 the hospital has existed before that time.

11 A. Are there any protocols, records with case

12 histories, this is not accessible to me. This is not

13 with me and I don't know whether they exist. Probably

14 they do, but I don't know where they are.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

16 MS. BOLER: Just a couple of questions on

17 re-direct, Your Honour.

18 Your Honour, based on the testimony from this

19 witness, I would like to ask that the subpoena be

20 reissued for the medical records prior to 1994 for

21 these three people, Esad Landzo, Mirko Babic and Mr.

22 Branko Gotovac. And that the subpoena be issued to the

23 person who actually has access to these records and the

24 one who has authority to bring them here to The Hague.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: These are things you can

1 direct, can you?

2 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, I believe that the

3 testimony has been that Dr. Buturovic, in his capacity

4 as director of the hospital, would be the one to either

5 tell the -- give the information to the MUP, who

6 delivered the subpoena, exactly to whom the subpoena

7 should be issued. I believe that in Dr. Buturovic's

8 capacity as director of the hospital, and the fact that

9 there has been testimony that he basically signs off on

10 those requests to make copies, that he should be asked

11 to do so.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think that is

13 correct. If the keeper of the records has told us, and

14 these are the records available to her, I don't see how

15 you think someone else who is merely the administrative

16 head of the hospital is the one who should do it. He

17 is not the administrative head. He is not in charge of

18 the records.

19 MS. BOLER: I agree with you, I don't think

20 that there is going to be cooperation. Because, I

21 think, if there were going to be cooperation, at this

22 point, we would have already had it. My request is

23 just that a subpoena be issued, perhaps, to Dr.

24 Buturovic or to someone that can come in and state, "I

25 have access to these records, I have authority to bring

1 them to you, either here they are", or, "Your Honours,

2 I searched diligently and I could not find them."

3 That's what I am asking the Court.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Dr. Buturovic was here,

5 he gave evidence and you must have asked him questions

6 about these records. And he gave an undertaking to

7 direct whoever could find the records to bring them.

8 He did give that undertaking. It would be unfair -- in

9 fact, I don't know how to -- it might be even invidious

10 to now issue a subpoena to him when he had already told

11 the Trial Chamber his relationship with that place.

12 His only thing is to approve that things be done. He

13 is not the actual one who does it.

14 MS. BOLER: I guess --

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't know whether you

16 were in court when he gave the evidence.

17 MS. BOLER: I recall it and I also addressed

18 the Court that I had to tried to get those records.

19 And Mr. Shuta (Phon) had tried to get those records.

20 So I know that the Court is aware that we have

21 diligently tried to get those records. We've just been

22 unsuccessful. So I guess I am just making one last

23 attempt to address this. Surely somebody at the

24 hospital has access to these records and has the

25 authority to come and tell us, here they are, or, we

1 diligently searched and we weren't able to find them.

2 That's my request.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In the circumstances of

4 the history of inquiry itself, I think it's a little

5 awkward for you now to make the same application to him

6 and then to make an application to him again, because,

7 initially, he came partly for some of these records. I

8 don't think it's right to issue any subpoena against

9 Buturovic.

10 MS. BOLER: I apologise for not being able to

11 understand you. Are you saying to me that it's right

12 that I should do it again, that I should ask Dr.

13 Buturovic to issue that subpoena to him, or are you

14 telling me --

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't direct you as to

16 who to apply for a subpoena. I don't know. I am not

17 part of your team.

18 MS. BOLER: I understand that. But it

19 sounded like you were telling me something and I

20 apologise --

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am not telling you

22 anything. He has given his own side of the story, his

23 relationship with the records itself, and you've issued

24 a subpoena to the keeper of the records. So, I

25 suppose, to Konjic Hospital and then you have been sent

1 who is the keeper of the witness. This is who they

2 sent you, the archivist. If the archivist could not

3 find it, I don't know who you think can. If you know

4 who can find it, go ahead and issue the subpoena.

5 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, if I knew that, it

6 would have been done two months ago, shortly after I

7 arrived. So I just was not able to really track down

8 exactly the right person.

9 JUDGE JAN: I want to ask a few questions

10 from the lady.

11 JUDGE JAN: You are in charge of the records

12 of the hospital? You are in charge of the records of

13 the hospital?

14 A. Yes, since 1994. That is, since 1995 until

15 today.

16 JUDGE JAN: When you took over charge of the

17 record, was record prior to 1995 also available?

18 A. The new archives on which I started in 1995,

19 there was a new room, new archives. There were no old

20 case histories, medical records.

21 JUDGE JAN: Who was looking after the old

22 case histories at the time when you took over?

23 A. I don't know, believe me, I don't know.

24 This -- we started from scratch. My task was to create

25 the archives.

1 MS. BOLER: Just one last question.

2 Q. Is my understanding correct that these

3 records or some of the records before 1994 -- 1995, do

4 exist in the basement of Konjic Hospital, they are

5 there; is that correct?

6 A. In '95, when I started working, this is a new

7 premise and everything that we had from then to this

8 day is there. It was destroyed, it was rebuilt, it was

9 organised and we set up proper archives. Until then, I

10 don't know. There was nothing there except an empty

11 room before. And it was in this room that I started to

12 create proper archives. Until then, probably those

13 documents, reports, were carried away, put away

14 somewhere, I don't know.

15 Q. Just one last question. From your last

16 answer, I gather that, if those records do exist down

17 there, they haven't been archived, not just that's it's

18 not your job to archive, they're just still in a

19 disorganised state; is that your belief?

20 A. It is an archive, but it needs to be put in

21 order for it to be called an archive. I have really

22 tried to assist you to find some case histories, but I

23 was unable to do so. I went through 1994, all of it,

24 and I am really sorry, I didn't manage to do that.

25 MS. BOLER: I'm sorry.

1 JUDGE JAN: Did you subpoena this witness by

2 name?

3 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, we did what the

4 custom at home is and that's what we issued to the

5 custodian of the records at the Konjic Hospital. As

6 long as the Court is aware that we certainly tried to

7 locate the proper person to bring us these records.

8 Thanks, Your Honour, I pass the witness.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much for

10 your assistance. You are discharged now.

11 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

12 (The witness withdrew)

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Call your next witness,

14 please?

15 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, the next witness

16 is to be brought over at 11.30 by the Victims and

17 Witnesses Unit, so I would ask the court to -- but I

18 don't believe he's here yet. If we can take the

19 thirty-minute break early and come back early, we will

20 bring him in immediately.

21 MS. BOLER: May I say that we did request

22 these two witnesses come over at 9.30, but we didn't

23 even get finished until 1.30 in the morning, so I

24 thought maybe an extra hour of sleep would benefit

25 him. I believe I said 11.00.

1 THE REGISTRAR: The witness is not available

2 at this time.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We can, as well, take a

4 break and we will come back at 11.45. We hope the

5 witness will be here at 11.30. The Trial Chamber will

6 now rise.

7 --- Recess taken at 11.07 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 11.50 a.m.

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19 Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

20 3:45, to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 21st

21 day of July, 1998, at 10.00 a.m.

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