1 Monday, 5 November 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

8 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Good morning. Cross-examination.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for His Honour, please.

11 JUDGE LIU: Cross-examination, Mr. Krsnik.

12 WITNESS: WITNESS HH [Resumed]

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. Before I proceed with my

16 cross-examination, I should like to I apologise to you for the manner in

17 which I cross-examined you on Friday [sic]. Please receive my apologies.

18 I hope I did not hurt your feelings. If I did, please do receive the

19 apologies.

20 If you will remember, I mentioned only your first name, and you

21 thought that that could perhaps reveal your identity, but please

22 understand that was not my intention, by no means. I merely wanted to

23 find out, as we have two documents, two different names, and they are

24 completely different, I merely wanted to establish the difference.

25 So please receive my apologies, and my apologies go both to you

1 and the Chamber.

2 Please also understand that I am the counsel for the Defence. It

3 is my job to check everything that was said during the direct

4 examination. I will do my best today to do that, that is, to conduct my

5 cross-examination in as composed, in as calm a manner as possible, and I

6 should like to invite you to help me.

7 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm sorry. I'm not

8 getting the interpretation. The headset is not working. So could

9 somebody please help me?

10 JUDGE LIU: Madam Registrar, would you please have it checked.

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we go into

12 private session, please?

13 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session.

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7 [Open session]

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Tell us, do you own up to this statement? Do you accept it as

10 your own; and is it truthful as a whole; and the signature on the

11 statement, is it your signature or not?

12 A. Yes. I remember signing it.

13 THE INTERPRETER: And the witness mentions the spelling of his

14 name.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Then let us -- excuse me.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Shall we go back to the private

18 session?

19 A. Excuse me. There are five different signatures. I've been given

20 again the same kind of paper that I was given before.

21 JUDGE LIU: We'll go back to the private session.

22 A. I have the same paper here as before, gentlemen. I am really

23 sorry.

24 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in the private session.

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7 [Open session]

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

9 Q. You see it on page 3, above the mention of the 26th of May, 1999.

10 So below that, rather. The last paragraph. One, two, three -- third

11 sentence: "They took me to the old building of the KP Dom, the penal and

12 correctional institution."

13 A. I thought that was the building. I'm not quite sure whether it

14 was that building, but that is what I said. It is true that I was taken

15 in, because I was coming back from Hvar. I was looking for my parents.

16 Q. Tell me, please, were you HVO then or the army of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

18 A. I was a member of the Patriotic League.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

20 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I think there needs to be some

21 clarification as to time here. Mr. Krsnik is talking about this witness

22 being taken to Ljubuski on the 20th of May. I don't think there's

23 anything in the record that suggests he was taken to the -- taken to

24 Ljubuski on the 20th of May, 1993. Mr. Krsnik may be referring to

25 another --

1 THE INTERPRETER: Could you slow down, Mr. Scott.

2 MR. SCOTT: My apologies to interpretation.

3 I believe perhaps Mr. Krsnik is referring to another time when

4 this witness was arrested by the Croats on May 20, 1992, almost a year

5 earlier. So if there's going to be questions about this, I think counsel

6 should be clear about the dates.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Mr. Krsnik, would you please clear it up for

8 us.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honours. My learned

10 friend is always a step in front of me. My next question precisely was to

11 clear up the question whether it was 1992 or 1993. So with my next

12 question, we'll clear that up.

13 Q. So I'm talking about page 8. My learned friend managed to confuse

14 me. My question was clear. In 1993 -- it is page 8, fifth paragraph. As

15 of the 20th of the May, 1992, you ended up in the same building, the KP

16 Dom. That's what you said. "We ended up at the KP Dom, Ljubuski, the

17 centre for juvenile delinquents, where I had already been in May 1992."

18 A. That is how I call it, the KP Dom. I am not sure that that is

19 what it is. That's what I said. I can't exactly remember which building

20 it was in Ljubuski or even if it was in Mostar. I said that I was taken

21 to the same building I was taken to in May 1992. I did say that.

22 Q. And you specifically said that on both occasions it was the penal

23 correctional centre, and this time you even further elaborated, saying

24 that it was a centre for juvenile delinquents, and you also added, "Where

25 I had already been in 1992. It was the old penitentiary."

1 A. Probably the gentleman asked me what I meant by "KP Dom," and I

2 explained what it was, a centre for juvenile delinquents or something like

3 that, whatever you call it.

4 Q. It's what you called it, not me.

5 A. I said there was something like that also in Stolac. I remember

6 that.

7 Q. In Ljubuski there is a penitentiary?

8 A. Yes. And in Stolac as well. I know very well the building I was

9 in in 1992 and 1993. It's something I will not forget.

10 Q. Be kind enough and tell us, in 1992, which uniform were you

11 wearing?

12 A. The uniform of the Patriotic League of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13 Q. So let's go back to page 3. You said very clearly and explicitly,

14 I was wearing a uniform of the BH army.

15 A. Well, after that, the Patriotic League developed into the army,

16 and it has an insignia on one side. And on the other side, there was the

17 Defence Forces of the municipality. Something I'm not ashamed of. You

18 can show a picture of it.

19 Q. When did you abandon HVO?

20 A. When Prozor was attacked in 1992, in September.

21 Q. So you were simultaneously in the BH army and the HVO?

22 A. Until General Kraljevic was killed, I thought we were one and the

23 same army. We were jointly defending ourselves against the same enemy.

24 Q. And which army were you in from September '93 until May -- no,

25 sorry, not September. September '92, was it, until May '93?

1 A. I think I was a freelance. I was nowhere. I didn't want to take

2 part in the conflict.

3 Q. So you were not a member of any army?

4 A. Yes, until roughly the beginning of April '93.

5 Q. And then you joined what?

6 A. I joined the BH army.

7 Q. I'm asking you that because in this statement -- and you also

8 testified in court similarly; now we hear for the first time you joined

9 the BH army in April.

10 A. Well, I see you are interested in that. These gentlemen on this

11 side did not inquire about that, and now I'm telling you.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 A. Surely I'm under oath here. I have to tell you the truth. I

14 don't know your name, sir.

15 Q. Tell me, Witness, did you have an apartment in Mostar?

16 A. Yes, I did have an apartment in a part of Mostar. It's not a

17 proper apartment; a small studio.

18 Q. Where was that, roughly?

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, well, well.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] The part of town, Mr. President. I'm

21 referring to, Your Honours, in very general terms, whether it was the West

22 Bank or the East Bank.

23 JUDGE LIU: I understand that, but the reply from this witness

24 might disclose his identity. If you need it, we can go to the private

25 session.

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Well, then, just for this question,

2 please, yes, let's go into private session.

3 JUDGE LIU: Let's go into private session, please.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Prosecutor, when he

5 was examining this witness about the apartment he lived in, we were not in

6 private session. The witness told us where he was, in which apartment, on

7 the 10th of May. But anyway, I will abide by your ruling. It's better

8 for us to go into private session than to make any errors.

9 [Private session]

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15 [Open session]

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

17 Q. May I ask you who gave you that apartment? Did you get it as a

18 refugee or as a soldier or what?

19 A. The apartment? I paid the rent out of my salary, sir. It cost

20 about 100, 120 marks always.

21 Q. Yes, yes, thank you. I understand.

22 Tell me, please, we are now in April 1993. You said that you went

23 to the western part of Mostar on a daily basis, until the 10th of May,

24 1993?

25 A. Not absolutely every day, but we did -- I did go across, like

1 everyone else, after the cease-fire.

2 Q. When did the attack occur against the Vranica building?

3 A. As far as I can remember, in the morning, early in the morning on

4 the 9th of May, 1993, without looking it up in the statement. I don't

5 need to look it up. I know the date.

6 Q. Excuse me. But on page 4, you said explicitly that the building

7 was attacked on the 18th of April in the evening. That's why I'm asking

8 you that.

9 A. I'm sorry, what page?

10 Q. Page 4, last paragraph. Please read, read what you said.

11 A. The first attack on the Vranica building, that's what I said. And

12 to the Prosecutor, he said what happened between the 18th and the 23rd.

13 That's my first statement. You asked me the exact real attack on the

14 Vranica building. There were several attacks, you see. I personally was

15 interested in the attack that took place on the 9th.

16 Q. But in your statement, you mentioned the 9th as an all-out attack

17 on Mostar. You don't mention the Vranica building at all.

18 A. Correct. The all-out attack by the Croatian army against the town

19 of Mostar. Surely Vranica was also in the town of Mostar.

20 Q. Would you be kind enough and tell us how you know that Mr. Ejup

21 Ganic, on the 18th of April, actually signed an agreement of some kind in

22 the town of Mostar? And you testified about that in your

23 examination-in-chief.

24 A. I said that, after the first truce, Mr. Ganic came to Mostar, and

25 that a joint HVO and the BH army command was set up.

1 Q. How do you know?

2 A. That's my private affair. Do I have to answer that question?

3 Q. I see. That's your private affair. Very well. Thank you.

4 You mentioned in your examination-in-chief a certain person called

5 Splico, did you not?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you said that you also met him as a prisoner at the

8 Heliodrom. Is it then that you learned that he was born in Mostar?

9 A. I know that he was born in Mostar, that he's fair, that his front

10 teeth were missing, that he was shorter than 1 metre 70.

11 Q. No, I'm asking you this question because, in your

12 examination-in-chief, you said that he was a Splico, and he spoke with a

13 Dalmatian accent.

14 A. Yes, sir, he did speak with a Dalmatian accent.

15 Q. So when you were in the prison in Heliodrom, you didn't manage to

16 learn where he was from?

17 A. But he wasn't in the same room as I was in.

18 Q. But he was in the same camp?

19 A. Yes, in the central prison.

20 Q. So you didn't manage to find out?

21 A. It didn't interest me. All I know was that he was called Splico,

22 and he spoke with a Dalmatian accent.

23 Q. Would you be kind enough to tell me - I shall try and shorten this

24 cross-examination - who guarded the Heliodrom, who were your guards and

25 the people you communicated with? What unit did they belong to? Let me

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1 not go back into all the details, Marjanovic and all the others.

2 A. You mean what unit? The military police of the HVO.

3 Q. Very well. And the people that you mentioned from the warden,

4 deputy warden, and so on, they also belonged to the military police?

5 A. With the exception of one civilian, I think he was the Warden

6 Marjanovic.

7 Q. And all the others were military police?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Tell me, please, a final question for you: When did you tell the

10 Prosecutor -- the gentleman who examined you in-chief, when did you tell

11 the whole truth, on Friday when you discussed the statement you gave to

12 the investigators? Was it on Friday, or Thursday, or when you arrived in

13 The Hague? When did you tell him the whole truth about your stay at the

14 Heliodrom?

15 A. I don't know what you're referring to when you say "the truth."

16 Q. When did you tell the Prosecutor the whole truth about the time

17 you spent at the Heliodrom; when you came here in The Hague, on Thursday

18 or Friday? I don't know when you arrived here, nor am I interested in

19 that, actually. I'm just asking you. Let me rephrase it.

20 You told the Prosecutor the whole truth when you came here and

21 discussed your testimony here? It was only then that you told him that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Yes.

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

25 questions.

1 JUDGE LIU: Cross-examination, Mr. Par.

2 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Par: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Good morning, Witness. My name is Zelimir Par, and I am a lawyer

5 and one of the counsel for the accused Vinko Martinovic. I would like to

6 ask you some questions concerning your testimony. And I would like to

7 begin with the incident at the Mostar police station when you said that

8 you were abused by a group of soldiers, including persons called Romeo

9 Blazevic and Ernest Takac.

10 My question is, could you please tell us once again who else did

11 you recognise on that occasion, apart from those two, their names?

12 A. Vinko Beno, and another's name was Jadranko. Somebody said he was

13 Lovric, and later on I found out his full name was Jadranko Lovric.

14 Q. Now, could you, perhaps, identify the number one, who issued

15 orders of those persons, who was the leader?

16 A. You mean of those names that I gave you? Mr. Beno took me in

17 person to make a statement. Mr. Beno brought me to the room where a

18 certain videotape was shown. What they had to do with him, I don't know.

19 It is difficult for me to speak about that because horrible things

20 happened to me then so that --

21 Q. Very well. I am not trying to remind you of that incident. I'm

22 asking you about the relationship among them, about who was number one.

23 And if I understand well, it was Beno?

24 A. Listen, if you're talking about Beno, it was Takac and Romeo

25 Blazevic - their names I learned later on from some other people - to me

1 were chieftains. But it all reminds me of what I went through, sir, and I

2 cannot but remember all that now that you mention all these people.

3 Q. All right, all right. Can you tell us who was in charge of the

4 prisoners in the Mostar police? Was it a civilian police, was it a

5 military police, was it the HVO?

6 A. Sir, I know who brought me from my relatives' flat to the police

7 station, and I assume, if it is the police building, then it must have

8 been somebody in the police who was in charge. But I also know that it

9 was the Croatian army people who came to this police building, and they

10 were there in the immediate vicinity, 400 metres.

11 Q. Yes, I understand. You were brought there by the members?

12 A. Members of the Croatian army, but then I was taken over by Vinko

13 Beno, who is a member of the police, and the building was the police

14 building.

15 Q. Right. Did you see what kind of uniforms Blazevic and Takac wore

16 on that occasion? Did you see any patches on them or something?

17 A. As far as I could see, because I saw them first when I entered,

18 they were standing to the side. They were also wearing camouflage

19 uniforms like everybody else.

20 Q. But did they have perhaps any patch indicating their unit?

21 A. No, sir. I cannot remember really if there was anything to tell

22 which unit they belonged to.

23 Q. These two, Blazevic and Takac, you saw them again at Ljubuski,

24 didn't you?

25 A. I did.

1 Q. Now, please, when you saw them at Ljubuski, do you remember if

2 they came as part of a unit or did the two of them come on their own? Do

3 you remember that?

4 A. Excuse me, sir. I'd be Alfred Hitchcock, the greatest director of

5 all times, if I knew which unit they'd come with. I know they came in

6 plain daylight. I know they were standing in a compound in the prison,

7 and they beat some and took away others, and it was then that I found out

8 once and for all that those gentlemen were who they were, that is, Romeo

9 Blazevic and Takac. And it was said by their good friend who told me

10 that. He said that they were his good friends, the man who stood next to

11 me.

12 Q. So, please, I'm asking you. I wanted to find out whether they'd

13 come on their own or under a commander, whether they'd come with a group.

14 Not a unit and its name, but simply want to know whether they just turned

15 up or did they come in a group? Did they seem to have a leader, a

16 commander, or was it just the two of them who turned up there in plain

17 daylight?

18 A. Excuse me. We are standing in a compound -- I have to explain it

19 to you. It's a camp. It's camp, not a normal situation. And if you're

20 standing in a circle -- we all stand in a circle, and you're allowed only

21 to look down, how can I know who they came with and how? All I know is

22 they came very close to me and they'd asked a gentleman who was standing

23 next to me certain things, and all I know is that those persons -- the

24 faces of those persons, and I'll never forget them, sir.

25 Q. Now that we're talking about it, that you'll never forget their

1 faces, could you please describe them to us in a few words, first Romeo

2 and then Ernest.

3 A. Romeo is a gentleman who was more on the fair side, light brown,

4 slightly shorter than Ernest Takac. Ernest Takac is very strongly built.

5 His hair was black. When I saw him, he had a few days' stubble. The

6 first time I saw him, he didn't have any beard or anything. Ernest Takac

7 is a very powerfully-built man.

8 Q. Very well. And in Ljubuski, who guarded prisoners? Was it the

9 police or the military?

10 A. They were policemen of some kind, military policemen.

11 Q. Could you explain it to us? Do you know how is it that the two of

12 them, Romeo and Ernest, could pass by those policemen and come into direct

13 contact with prisoners? How is it they were allowed to do that? Do you

14 know anything about it?

15 A. Well, I wasn't a military policeman to know such things. I'm just

16 a humble mortal who is kept in a prison and is kept locked up and goes out

17 only when he needs to get out. I cannot come out as I please. It's only

18 when somebody comes and says, "You're allowed to come out," then I do come

19 out.

20 Q. Yes, Witness, I'm fully aware of that situation. It is perfectly

21 legitimate for you to tell us that you don't know when you don't know

22 something. But, all right, tell us. Let's try, to try to clear it up for

23 the Chamber and all that. How far is the town of Ljubuski from the town

24 of Mostar? How far are they, two towns?

25 A. Well, to tell the truth, I think it's about -- it's some 40

1 kilometres or so south-west of Mostar.

2 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like us to go back to the Heliodrom, to your

3 part -- to your testimony about the Heliodrom. When you said sometime in

4 mid-June 1993, during your stay at the Heliodrom, and that you saw that

5 day Vinko Martinovic, Stela, in front of Heliodrom, now, my question is:

6 Did I understand you well when you said that you saw him in front of

7 Heliodrom, that is, not within the compound but in front of it?

8 A. No, sir. As far as I can remember, I did not say that I saw him

9 at the entrance into the -- the western entrance into the central prison,

10 not in front of the Heliodrom, because I'd need binoculars to see him from

11 the room that I was in to see Mr. Stela there. I know I saw him in front

12 of the building. Perhaps there is a slight mistake in the

13 interpretation. I know that the gentleman came from the western side of

14 it, from the so-called basketball ground, to the central prison.

15 Q. And will you tell us what he looked like then? What kind of

16 uniform did he wear? Was he armed? Could you describe him a little?

17 A. Well, he was wearing what everybody else was wearing. So a

18 camouflage uniform like everybody else. And he came there.

19 Q. From my notes, you -- according to my notes, you said that you saw

20 him when prisoners were being brought in a truck or something.

21 A. No, not in; taken out.

22 Q. I see. Taken out. But who then -- who brought those prisoners to

23 the truck? Was it the policemen who escorted them or the soldiers? Who

24 escorted those prisoners to the truck and turned them over?

25 A. Why, those men, those men who were in the central prison. Those

1 who enter a room and say, "Let's go," ten, 20, 30 men who have to go to

2 work, because it's not voluntary. So the policeman says, "You, you, and

3 you." So what can I do? And I go out to work. Nobody asks me what I

4 want to do. So it is the gentlemen, policemen, messers. policemen who

5 were in the central prison. They took them there.

6 Q. Yes. That was my question, whether it was a policeman, whether

7 those people who took you to the trucks were policemen, and you say yes,

8 that is, military policemen.

9 A. Excuse me, sir. Please, don't misunderstand me. I think you are

10 trying to play games with me. I know well what I said, that it was

11 Mr. Stela who came in mid-July to the Heliodrom, because he needed some

12 workers to go to a certain area to work. And then you asked me left and

13 right, whether it was these or those. I know that a policeman enters a

14 room and says, "You, you, you, and you are going to work," and I know that

15 it was the military policeman who was doing a shift at that moment in the

16 prison who took me out, and one knows who were the military policemen in

17 the prison at the time. There were some at some -- Ante Buhovac or Puce,

18 some Smiljanic or Slavko Skender, Marjanovic. There were not five of

19 them, but I'm just mentioning those that I know. So they came, and it was

20 the policemen, policemen who escorted me from the building to the truck.

21 I saw Mr. Stela, who was standing on the right side of the truck.

22 Q. Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE LIU: You have to make a pause, I mean in the questions and

24 answers, because you give a difficult time to the interpreters, Mr. Par.

25 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honours. I'll bear

1 it in mind.

2 Q. Witness, that was precisely my question, that is, I'm not playing

3 any games with you. I'm not trying to frame you or anything. I'm asking

4 you whether Vinko Martinovic, Stela, entered the cells in the prison, took

5 prisoners from there and took them to the truck, or did Vinko Martinovic

6 wait by the truck and military policemen escorted the prisoners to the

7 truck?

8 A. I'd be the biggest liar in the world if I said that Mr. Stela had

9 come to a certain room and taken me out of it. Mr. Stela wasn't the one

10 who took me out of the room. It was a policeman.

11 Q. Right. Let's move on. You, therefore, board the truck, and you

12 arrive at Jadranko Lovric's coffee bar.

13 A. Immediate vicinity. Excuse me. Immediate vicinity of Jadranko

14 Lovric's coffee bar. Not into the coffee bar of Jadranko Lovric,

15 immediate vicinity.

16 Q. On that occasion, in the immediate vicinity of Jadranko Lovric's

17 coffee bar, was Mr. Salko Osmic in the same group with you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, please, do you know what happened to Salko Osmic later on?

20 A. Salko Osmic left with a group - I wasn't in it - and I think he

21 was one of the few who survived from that group. Mustafa Cilic, called

22 Cile, Rasim Lulic. I'm talking about people, of course, that I know, sir,

23 and who I think are on the list of the missing as far as I know. But

24 Salko Osmic, I saw him return after a long time, to the Heliodrom just

25 prior to my escape from the Heliodrom.

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1 Q. Now, this Salko Osmic, testifying in public before this Court on

2 the 26th and 7th of September, he testified about his detention, his

3 labour duty, and so on and so forth, but in his testimony, he never ever

4 mentioned seeing Stela, Stela - excuse me - or, rather, that incident. So

5 my question to you is: Are you positive that Salko Osmic was with you on

6 that particular occasion? And if so, would he have any reason to keep

7 silent about it, not to tell this Court about it?

8 A. Well, I don't know what Salko was asked about it. I did not see

9 Salko since 1994, when he came out of camp. So I don't know. I only

10 speak about what I saw. And I knew Mr. Stela personally, because he was

11 born in the municipality of Prozor.

12 Q. But you say that he was in that group of prisoners who were taken

13 and some of whom went missing. And so I wish to ask you: Do you know

14 where these people were taken, that other group?

15 A. That group, roughly -- I'm not sure whether it was seven or nine

16 or ten men who left with Mr. Stela. I know they were taken somewhere, but

17 I was taken to Dzubrani at that time to work there, so I had no idea where

18 those people were taken.

19 Q. Right. Did you perhaps hear that they were taken to the village

20 of Vojno, that they -- that somebody saw them there?

21 A. I heard it from some people, from that self-same Salko Osmic when

22 he returned. I think he said that he'd been to the village of Vojno.

23 Q. Very well. And tell me, do you know which army unit was

24 quartered in Vojno?

25 A. No, I can't say that.

1 Q. Do you know -- have you heard of the 2nd HVO battalion? Would you

2 say that it was possible that they were in the area?

3 A. I really do not know which unit it was. In that area, as far as I

4 could remember, the name that I know, I mean one of the commanders, I

5 believe he commanded the company. And that name is Zlatko Gavro -- Zdenko

6 Gavro, excuse me. But which unit he was, I really don't know. Which

7 battalion, I don't really know.

8 Q. Do you know which positions were manned by Stela's unit? I

9 believe it was mentioned they were somewhere near the Health Centre.

10 A. Vinko Slezak, the Mrmak unit. I know what I know.

11 Q. But my question is how far is it from the Health Centre to the

12 village of Vojno? Do you know the distance between those two places,

13 roughly?

14 A. You mean from the centre of the town to the village of Vojno? It

15 is on the west side of Mostar. Well, it can't be less than seven

16 kilometres. Could be more. Northwest of Mostar.

17 Q. I see. Let's go back to the fate of those -- to the lot of those

18 people. Did you ever personally try to check what happened to those

19 people, which ones of them survived and who are still missing, or is it

20 just some stories that went around that you heard and that you never tried

21 to verify them?

22 A. Well, sir, I lived in Jablanica for a while. I worked there in

23 October 1993. And when some of those men arrived from the camp, then

24 naturally I saw those people. I socialised with them, those men from

25 Sovici whom I met in the camp, and some I had known before. So naturally,

1 I wanted to know, as a human being, about who had come out of the camp and

2 who hadn't come out of the camp. As far as I can remember, a chap called

3 Mustafa Cilic, Cile everybody called him. I'm not sure whether he's

4 Mustafa or Mujo or Mohamed or something. But I know that he was Cile. He

5 was very young. He had curly hair, and that he disappeared, that he was

6 in the camp with me, that he left with those ten men taken away by

7 Mr. Stela, and they simply disappeared. How they went missing, who is the

8 responsibility, I really don't know, and I didn't ask. I didn't try to

9 inquire about that because I was afraid it might try to hurt his family.

10 Q. Precisely. As you keep pointing out, Mr. Stela took them away,

11 Mr. Stela this, Mr. Stela that, and those people went missing. Now, my

12 client Stela asked me to clear it up with you. You've come here -- have

13 you come here to accuse him of being responsible for the fate of those

14 people? Because you say Stela took him away, so I hold him responsible

15 for that death. Or is it something else? And I need to clear it up with

16 you here.

17 So my question is quite plain to you: When you speak about the

18 lot of these people, are you claiming that Vinko Martinovic is responsible

19 for them, that he was with them throughout? Or would you allow that the

20 fate of these people perhaps depended on some other -- was determined by

21 some other circumstances, by some other events, developments, in our units

22 and so on and so forth?

23 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Par, you have to understand that this witness is

24 going to give us the facts, rather than conclusions. It is the Trial

25 Chamber that will make the conclusions. We don't want you to ask any

1 questions concerning any speculations or the conclusions from this

2 witness.

3 Yes.

4 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. I withdraw the

5 question, then. Now, I'd like to ask to go briefly into private session,

6 please, because I want to show the witness a document and ask about two or

7 three things that are in this document. His name is on the document, so I

8 would like to go into private session.

9 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session.

10 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Do I have it here?

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21 JUDGE LIU: I think it is time, so we'll adjourn until 11.30.

22 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.

24 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott. Re-examination, please.

25 Re-examined by Mr. Scott:

1 Q. Witness HH, just a very few questions. Just to clarify for the

2 record the date of some cease-fire or peace agreement, if we can call it

3 that, that was signed by Ejup Ganic, just so the record is clear, was

4 that, to your recollection, signed, as far as you know, on the 23rd of

5 April, 1993?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. SCOTT: And, Your Honour, I have about two or three other

8 questions that I think we'll have to go into private session on, please.

9 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session.

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24 JUDGE CLARK: Could I ask you, either Mr. Scott or Mr. Par -- can

25 I ask Mr. Scott or Mr. Par about the document which has been described as

1 Defence document D2/14? Did that document have a date on its original

2 version?

3 MR. SCOTT: If Mr. Par can assist, he can also certainly do so.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Mike, please.

5 MR. SCOTT: My apology. I cannot find a date on the document.

6 There is a reference -- well, there might be a date. Again maybe Mr. Par

7 can -- there may be a stamp on the document dated the 19th of December,

8 1993, but I'm not -- I'm not sure about that, and I'm not prepared to say

9 that that's necessarily the case, but it could -- it appears that it might

10 be that.

11 It appears there's also a date, Judge Clark, Your Honour, on the

12 first paragraph. There's a reference to the 8th of November, 1993. So I

13 suppose one would have to draw the conclusion or could draw the conclusion

14 that the document would have had to have been prepared at least after the

15 8th of November, but I'm sorry, I don't think I can assist further.

16 JUDGE CLARK: Yes, there's another date on the 12th of November,

17 '93, but I wondered, seeing that that document was furnished to the

18 Defence by the Prosecution, if somebody has the original and if any date

19 appears on that. But I think you said you think there's a stamp that

20 could read the 19th of December, '93.

21 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. I think so. What I will do, Your

22 Honour, I think I've exhausted what I can do to assist the Chamber, but I

23 can make further inquiries if there's a better document -- better copy

24 available.

25 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Par, do you agree that the stamp might read the

1 19th of the 12th, '93?

2 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Yes, I think that is the only relevant

3 date. There's a stamp saying that this document was received on the 19th

4 of December, '93, and it has a number for the Defence Department of the

5 Security and Information Service, and I also see a stamp of the archives

6 along the lines the Prosecutor has said. So I consider this date to be

7 the relevant one, the 19th of December, 1993.

8 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you, Mr. Par. That's good enough for me.

9 MR. SCOTT: I'm sorry to interrupt you.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Mike, Mr. Scott.

11 MR. SCOTT: I have no problem, if it will assist the Chamber. I

12 can tender a copy of the B/C/S version where you can see what Mr. Par and

13 I are both referring to. The usher just left.

14 JUDGE CLARK: Yes, I'm greatly assisted by that.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

16 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, as you notice, Mr. Par

17 gave the only two English copies which were provided by the Prosecutor to

18 Madam Registrar, so would it be possible later to have a copy in English

19 for each one of us? That's all I'm asking.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

21 MR. MEEK: Thank you.

22 Questioned by the Court:

23 JUDGE CLARK: Now, Witness, do you have a copy of the Bosnian

24 version of that in front of you, that document? You do. Did you have a

25 chance to look at it during the break, or did it remain on the desk?

1 A. It was on the desk.

2 JUDGE CLARK: Could you give it a quick glance now and look at the

3 names of persons who were alleged to have escaped. There's a list of six

4 originally, and then it's followed by a list of the soldier accompanying

5 the escapee. So could you look at that list of names.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could we ask the usher to switch on the other

7 microphone of the witness, please.

8 Thank you.

9 JUDGE CLARK: Now, if you've had a chance to have a look at that,

10 I notice that there are more than 30 names of people who are alleged to

11 have escaped. And obviously, included in that list is your own name, and

12 I recognise another witness's name, or I think I do.

13 Can you say, looking at that list, whether from your own knowledge

14 that you know that people did escape who are on that list, or from your

15 own knowledge, that they, in fact, died or were injured?

16 A. As far as I know, before me, Ahmet Penava had escaped. After me,

17 as far as I know, Mustafa Begic escaped, Asim Jazvin, and Semir Toljaga.

18 JUDGE CLARK: So from your knowledge, one name you recognise as

19 being a legitimate escapee, and three perhaps after you. If you look at

20 that list again, are there any on that list who are described as having

21 escaped who you know to have been killed?

22 A. I know that Asim Jasvin was killed. I think that Dzemal Taso

23 died. I know that he died of natural causes, but whether he escaped -- I

24 don't know that he escaped from the Heliodrom. I don't know that. And he

25 is listed here -- I know that Mr. Penava escaped. And Dzemal Taso, I'm

1 not so sure -- I don't know whether he escaped, but I know that the

2 gentleman died.

3 JUDGE CLARK: Well, perhaps we'll leave that list aside. You told

4 us on Thursday of -- and you were unwilling to talk about it, of your

5 ill-treatment and torture in the stone building and then at the Heliodrom

6 at Ljubuski, and I think you told us at one stage that you'd been there

7 for a while when you were registered by the Red Cross.

8 A. Excuse me. You mentioned the Ljubuski building as being the place

9 where I was beaten and registered, but I was registered at the Heliodrom

10 and not at Ljubuski.

11 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. When you were registered at the

12 Heliodrom, could you assist the Trial Chamber in telling us how that came

13 about and whether you had an opportunity to speak to representatives from

14 the Red Cross?

15 A. Yes, in a room that we were in and that they entered, there were

16 representatives of the Red Cross, but at the same time, there were

17 representatives present of the police. So we really didn't dare talk

18 much, as far as I can remember, to the gentlemen from the Red Cross. I

19 think that some people even wrote some messages to the Red Cross for the

20 first time.

21 JUDGE CLARK: I can understand if the policemen were present while

22 the representatives from the Red Cross were there it would be difficult

23 for you to discuss anything, but did the representative from the Red Cross

24 see or notice your injuries? This is not yours personally, but in the

25 group.

1 A. I really can't remember the name of the person. I keep trying to

2 remember the name of the person who spoke English or some other language,

3 probably English or French, and who spoke to a person, a person from the

4 Red Cross. And afterwards, I know that that person came up to me and he

5 sort of interpreted partly, and I went out to the sort of corridor in the

6 building. I lifted up my T-shirt and my trousers to above my knees.

7 That's as much as I managed to show of my injuries.

8 JUDGE CLARK: So you did show your injuries to somebody.

9 A. This was a short woman of some 55, roughly. That is my estimate.

10 But this was after talking to this person whose name I'm trying to

11 remember. She was, I think, also from Central Bosnia. I just cannot

12 remember her name.

13 JUDGE CLARK: It doesn't matter about her name, but what I really

14 wanted to know is did the Red Cross people have an opportunity to discover

15 that many of you had injuries?

16 A. I think they were not allowed to. I was among the few who had the

17 courage and went up there to show it to them. That's as much as I was

18 able to see. I don't think I was allowed. We just filled in these cards

19 of the Red Cross, and I managed to sneak out into the corridor and, as I

20 said, to lift up my trousers and my T-shirt.

21 JUDGE CLARK: Very good. Did the representative from the Red

22 Cross say anything to you or to the guards in your presence about the

23 treatment of prisoners of war and the Geneva Convention?

24 A. As far as I can remember, there were people there who were

25 infiltrated amongst us. We didn't dare. We didn't dare say anything, as

1 far as I can remember. All I can remember is when they came and what I

2 did in the corridor. After this talk of this young man who was maybe my

3 age or maybe a little younger, he was also tall, and he spoke with this

4 lady, and after this conversation, he said to me -- he made a sign, and I

5 showed my injuries.

6 JUDGE CLARK: Did this woman from the Red Cross say to any of you

7 that your position was protected by international convention or treaty?

8 A. They would say that to us, that we were protected, and once we

9 were registered that we would be protected. Unfortunately, after the

10 registration and continued torture at the Heliodrom, more than a thousand

11 and a half people went missing from Mostar, who were killed and went

12 missing, and most of them had been registered.

13 JUDGE CLARK: Was that the only visit that you had from the Red

14 Cross? Did anybody come back to check that the same people who were on

15 the list were still alive and present?

16 A. As far as I can remember, while I was there, it was the one and

17 only time that I personally saw the Red Cross as regards me and this group

18 I was in. Possibly they may have come later. I believe they did, because

19 they brought some messages. After we had filled in these cards and after

20 we were registered, I'm not sure when, but maybe seven or 15 days later,

21 individuals amongst us did receive messages, answers to the messages they

22 had written, in fact.

23 JUDGE CLARK: Now, if I can bring you a little bit beyond that to

24 when you were describing how the police would come into your cell and

25 select people for forced labour, and just, as you've described, point out,

1 "You, you, and you," and they would take approximately 30 people. Now, I

2 want you to think about this: When the policemen did this, did any of

3 them record the names of the prisoners or the internees who were taken out

4 for work duty and sign for them? Was there a procedure, a formal

5 procedure for taking out the prisoners?

6 A. I think that I'm telling you what I know and what I remember. I

7 think only when we went to work south of the town of Mostar where the

8 bridge was being built that I worked on, too. The bridge on the

9 Neretva River itself where the Buna River flows into the Neretva River,

10 and I think that only in that case it was known exactly the number of

11 people who were going and it always had to be the same people.

12 JUDGE CLARK: And on that occasion when you saw a record being

13 kept of the people who went, was there a record also kept of the people

14 who returned, as far as you know?

15 A. Only in this particular case. I know that Mr. -- Mr. -- I can't

16 remember the name now, the gentleman who was responsible for that area.

17 His name was Rafo. He had a brother living in Buna. I'm sorry for

18 elaborating. I know his father was massacred by the Serbs in 1992.

19 Gagro. His brother's name was Srecko Gagro, and the other one is Rafo

20 Gagro. So I know he was in charge of that building site in the location

21 called Buna, where the Buna River flows into the Neretva River, and where

22 I worked for at least seven days doing heavy labour in water with very

23 little food.

24 And it was only in that case that there was a record of who was

25 going, and other people could not go because they needed people who were

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1 familiar with building work, who could use a compressor. We were drilling

2 holes. And I think it was Mr. Rafo who was in charge -- no, I don't think

3 so; I'm a hundred percent sure he supervised things. He did the mining

4 work. We did the other heavy duty. That was that one case that it was

5 known who was going, and that was for the Buna River. And he would walk

6 in early in the morning and say, "Let's go to Buna."

7 JUDGE CLARK: Can I ask you directly arising out of your response,

8 and in relation to the Buna River, was this a situation where any of the

9 prisoners were liable to be shot at by either the Serbs or the ABiH? Were

10 you in danger of being caught in direct fire or crossfire?

11 A. I think at Buna itself, we were not in immediate danger.

12 Actually, I have to elaborate. At Buna actually, I don't think -- at

13 least, when I went there, until more or less the very beginning of July, I

14 don't think that there was any real immediate danger for people's lives

15 there, only if the Serb side would fire a shell or so. But I think they

16 got on so well in destroying Bosnia-Herzegovina that they didn't need to

17 shell the Croatian side.

18 JUDGE CLARK: So can I -- I take it from that that the only

19 occasion in the period that you were a prisoner that you can recall a

20 record being made of prisoners taken to carry out labour was the occasion

21 when there was no danger of being caught in crossfire?

22 A. Correct, at Buna. That is true. The only place where I was

23 recorded, where my name was recorded, when somebody checked when I

24 returned, was the location of Buna and the bridge on the Neretva River.

25 JUDGE CLARK: During the period that you were a prisoner in either

1 of the camps and that you were taken out to perform labour, did you ever

2 perform tasks which could be described as non-dangerous and municipal

3 tasks, like tidying up a playground or cleaning the streets or planting

4 shrubs; municipal work? Can any of the forced labour that you did be

5 described as those sort of civilian works?

6 A. Never.

7 JUDGE CLARK: You are absolutely positive about that?

8 A. I think I'm a hundred percent sure, except for this case. I'm a

9 hundred percent sure that I didn't go anywhere voluntarily to work, and

10 I'm a hundred percent sure that I never went anywhere to do cleaning work

11 or planting or anything like that.

12 JUDGE CLARK: I'm asking you those questions because of evidence

13 that we've received from other sources, so I was just checking that with

14 you. That doesn't mean that I'm not believing what you say. I don't want

15 you to think that. It's just that we've seen some documents which would

16 appear to indicate otherwise. But thank you very much, indeed, for your

17 assistance. And I wish you well in your new life, wherever it is.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Judge Clark.

19 Judge Diarra.

20 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

21 A part of my questions have already been put; however, I would

22 like to ask the witness, after having said that the work he did at the

23 Buna River was hard work but not dangerous, their lives were not at risk,

24 could he tell me whether those works had to do with the war?

25 A. Well, the bridge -- I mean, explosives were handled there; and

1 people who handled explosives, they knew what that was. And I, who worked

2 with the drilling machine, I knew how to use that. I knew how to drill

3 holes for explosives. Others were putting up boarding for the concrete

4 pillars for the bridge. So of course, it was possible to be hit by stray

5 shots -- shell. But I repeat, at the time when the Croatian state

6 committed aggression against the Bosnian state, I don't think that a

7 single Serbian shell hit the Croatian side. I don't think there was any

8 such case, and they went along so perfectly destroying Bosnian homes.

9 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] And my second question: In that

10 fixed cemetery where people were buried without distinction as to religion

11 or ethnicity, where you were at that cemetery where the HVO soldiers and

12 the prisoners, when they were mingled? That is, when you were put amongst

13 the soldiers of the HV, could you then tell me, on that occasion, who

14 were -- what were the accused and their companions doing at that place?

15 A. They were coming in our direction from the opposite side. They

16 were walking towards that group. And I was the second behind the

17 gentlemen. That is, there were two soldiers, two Croatian soldiers, then

18 two of us and so on and so forth. We alternated, a civilian, a Croat

19 soldier, and then another civilian. We were all mingled. That was the

20 first time that that happened at that place. It was in a sort of a zigzag

21 line.

22 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand that. I

23 understand this mingling of the detainees and the HVO. I'm asking about

24 Mr. Naletilic and others doing that. Did you say that you were just

25 moving and you merely met in that place? I'm asking, what were they

1 doing? Were they engaged in any activity there? Did you simply meet,

2 they coming from the north, you from the south, and your paths simply

3 crossed over, or were they doing something? Were they engaged in any

4 kind of activity? What were they doing?

5 A. All I know is that we met there. Whether they were engaged in any

6 kind of activity, I really do not know. I know it was ours to move

7 towards the Kantarevac stadium to do certain things there, that we had

8 shovels with us, pickaxes and things. And that is in the immediate

9 vicinity of the front line.

10 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. President, I have

11 no further questions.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Judge Diarra.

13 Any questions out of the Judges' questions? Yes, Mr. Scott.

14 THE INTERPRETER: We could not hear you, Mr. Scott.

15 MR. SCOTT: My apology. Not for the Prosecution.

16 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No. I do not have any questions,

18 Your Honours. I merely wanted to ask, with the leave of the Honourable

19 Court, we looked at the transcript and we -- the names of people I asked

20 in my question. So I'd like to go into private session to have those

21 names established. If not, then I can resolve it in some other way, just

22 to check the names that I mentioned. They are not in the transcript. I

23 do not have any questions, I mean.

24 JUDGE LIU: I will give you the opportunity to check all those

25 names, but it's only limited to those names. We'll go to the private

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7 JUDGE LIU: Witness, thank you very much for helping us by giving

8 your evidence. We all wish you good luck in the future. When the usher

9 pulls down the blinds, he will take you out of the room. Thank you.

10 At this stage, are there any documents to tender from both sides?

11 Yes, Mr. Scott.

12 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, the only document that was marked by

13 the Prosecution with this witness was a marked version of Exhibit 12,

14 which he made a number "1" and number "2" on, and consistent with past

15 practice - excuse me - I would ask the registrar to give that an

16 appropriate subnumber so that it is Exhibit 12 point something, whatever

17 that would be.

18 THE REGISTRAR: So that would be 12/1/1 and 12/2/1.

19 MR. SCOTT: I'm not sure why there would be two but -- there's

20 only one exhibit, but whatever numbers appropriate would be. There's an

21 Exhibit 12 and then there should be a marked version, a marked Exhibit 12.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe after the session you can consult with

23 Madam Registrar regarding those numbers.

24 MR. SCOTT: Of course, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE LIU: Any objections? Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] If I understand well, it is the map

2 that was drawn by the witness. No, no objections. But I should, at the

3 same time, like to tender as a Defence exhibit the statement of the 1st of

4 May, 1994, number 1/31, to tender it as a Defence exhibit. It is the

5 statement given on the 1st of April, '94.

6 Thank you.

7 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, as you know, there's a decision pending

8 on the previous statement made by the witness. So before that, we could

9 give it an ID number, but we cannot admit it into the evidence at this

10 stage. I hope you could understand.

11 Yes, Mr. Par.

12 [Witness withdrew]

13 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we do not object, and we

14 should also like to tender Document D2/14, the list that we discussed of

15 persons who escaped from detention. Thank you.

16 JUDGE LIU: I understand that this document should be put under

17 seal. Any objections from Mr. Scott?

18 MR. SCOTT: No, Your Honour. We would agree that it be under

19 seal. The Prosecution has no objection to D2/14. As, Mr. President,

20 you've already anticipated, we continue to have the same standing

21 objection as to the prior statements. In this particular case, I would

22 simply add that, in addition to our usual objections, we would also object

23 further that this is a statement which there has been -- there is no

24 evidence in the record connecting that statement to this witness at all.

25 But we have our usual objection.

1 And I wonder, Mr. President, if I could -- there's something I

2 might be able to assist the Chamber with, but I would have to go into

3 private session just for a moment before the next witness comes in, if you

4 would agree to that.

5 JUDGE LIU: So that D2/14 is admitted into the evidence.

6 MR. SCOTT: No objection.

7 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you for giving me

9 the floor. The statement that I tendered, and about which my learned

10 friend says has nothing to do with the witness, I wish to say that that is

11 not true. It has to do with the witness and how, and that is why the

12 Defence tendered it. Of course, it has to do with this witness, and I

13 believe in a very important way, too. Thank you.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. I understand your views.

15 Could we go to the private session for a few minutes.

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13 --- Break taken at 12.25 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 12.44 p.m.

15 [The witness entered court]

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3 [Open session]

4 Examined by Mr. Stringer:

5 Q. Mr. Witness, can you hear me? Can you understand me?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. I have a piece of paper which contains your name and also

8 the pseudonym which you have been given, because the Trial Chamber has

9 granted the request for you to testify under protective measures. So at

10 this time, I'm going to ask you to look at the paper and, without saying

11 your name, simply tell us whether your name correctly appears on that

12 paper with your date of birth.

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. And, Witness, your pseudonym is, I believe, II, and so for our

15 purposes in these proceedings, we'll be referring to you with that

16 pseudonym, and you should not say your name or the names of your family

17 members during your testimony.

18 MR. STRINGER: Now, as that paper is circulated, Mr. President,

19 with your permission, I could give a brief resume or summary to the Trial

20 Chamber in terms of the relevant parts of the indictment.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please. Thank you.

22 MR. STRINGER: The testimony of Witness II will be relevant to

23 paragraphs 7 and 11 of the indictment, which are a part of the Background

24 of the indictment relating to international armed conflict and the

25 campaign, widespread and systematic. Also, Superior Authority of the

1 accused under paragraphs 16 and 17. Paragraphs 18 through 21 of the

2 General Allegations, which relate to international armed conflict and the

3 existence of a widespread or systematic campaign.

4 The testimony is relevant to paragraphs 27 and 28 of count 1,

5 which relate to the various detention facilities that were established

6 throughout the Western Herzegovina region. Also in count 1, the testimony

7 is relevant to paragraphs 30 and 34, paragraph 30 being the headquarters

8 of the accused Martinovic in the city of Mostar.

9 The testimony will also be relevant to paragraphs 35 to 38 of the

10 indictment, which form part of counts 2 through 8 relating to the use of

11 prisoners to perform labour and other tasks. Also, within counts 2

12 through 8, the testimony relates to paragraph 40 and 41.

13 And then finally, the witness's testimony will relate to paragraph

14 57, which is count 21, charging looting.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may proceed with your direct

16 examination.

17 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Q. Witness, let me first ask you a couple of background questions

19 about yourself. In 1993 -- 1992 -- excuse me. In 1993, were you a

20 Bosnian Muslim who was a member of the HVO in Capljina?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And at that time, say, during May - in fact, April, May, June of

23 1993 - what was your rank and what was your -- what were your duties as a

24 member of the HVO in Capljina?

25 A. I was a soldier in the military police at the beginning for the

1 first two or three months, and then I left the military police and was a

2 soldier in the 1st battalion of the 4th Company, of the Knez Domagoj

3 Brigade.

4 Q. Thank you. Directing your attention to the 1st of July, 1993, can

5 you tell us, please, where you were deployed and what were your duties on

6 that day?

7 A. I spent the night on the front line, the separation line. And

8 when I finished my shift in the morning, after the shift, I went to the

9 medical centre with a colleague of mine. And on the way there, I was

10 captured.

11 Q. Who were you captured by?

12 A. By members also of the Knez Domagoj Brigade but a different

13 company, the members of the 2nd Company of the same brigade.

14 Q. Were other members of your unit also arrested on that day?

15 A. Yes, there were about 120 of us.

16 Q. And is there any particular reason why those individuals were

17 arrested, if you know?

18 A. There were no problems, and we realised the reason later. All

19 Muslims, almost all Muslims were arrested --

20 Q. And --

21 A. -- who didn't manage to escape.

22 Q. Did -- and the persons arresting the Muslims -- let me first

23 clarify or try to ask you to clarify. Are we talking about other Muslim

24 members of your unit?

25 A. Members of my unit and civilians also who were found there at the

1 time.

2 Q. And who were you and the others arrested by?

3 A. I've already said; members of the same brigade who took over from

4 us on the front line when we finished our shift. They would come to

5 replace us.

6 Q. After you were arrested, then, were you taken to a different

7 location?

8 A. We were in front of the medical centre until they rounded us all

9 up, and later we were driven to the camp at Dretelj.

10 Q. Do you know approximately how many Muslim members of your unit or

11 Muslim civilians were arrested with you and taken to Dretelj on that day?

12 A. From the unit, the whole unit, 120 men, and about 20 to 30

13 civilians.

14 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber, please, then what occurred then

15 after you and the others arrived at Dretelj?

16 A. We handed over all our personal documents, everything we had on

17 us, everything we owned.

18 Q. Were you wearing your HVO uniform when you arrived at Dretelj?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And were you -- did you continue then to wear that uniform after

21 you were received at Dretelj?

22 A. Those of us who came in uniforms took off our uniforms and were

23 given uniforms of the former JNA army which used to be there.

24 Q. What's the colour of those uniforms?

25 A. Olive green.

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1 Q. That's the colour of the uniforms of the former JNA?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, from this point forward, Witness, the 1st of July, let me ask

4 you if you could tell us first, how long did you remain there at the

5 Dretelj camp?

6 A. Until the 21st of July, for 21 days.

7 Q. And during that period of time, where did you stay? Where were

8 you held?

9 A. I was in a metal hangar.

10 Q. Did other prisoners arrive at the camp on the 1st of July or in

11 the days that followed?

12 A. Some on the 1st of July, all that day, and maybe for a week after

13 that people were coming in on a daily basis.

14 Q. Now, you mentioned that you remained or were held in a metal

15 hangar. Do you know approximately how many other prisoners were with you

16 in that hangar?

17 A. That day, 120 or 150 of us. Then there came a group from --

18 people who had already been arrested before that, 250. Then in the course

19 of that day and the next day, we totalled about 450 prisoners.

20 MR. STRINGER: At this time, I'd like to ask that the -- excuse

21 me. At this time, I'd like to ask that the witness be shown Exhibit 21.8,

22 which is a photograph. We can place this on the ELMO.

23 Q. Witness, now, if the pointer is there with you on the desk, I

24 wonder if you could use the pointer to show us the place where you were

25 held, if you see it on this photograph. If you don't have the pointer,

1 perhaps you could just use a pencil.

2 A. [Indicates]

3 Q. Okay. Thank you, Witness. Now I'm going to ask you to take the

4 photograph, and using one of the markers that's next to the screen there,

5 if you would place a circle around that hangar which you've just pointed

6 to.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. Now, Witness, in the few remaining minutes that we have left

9 before the lunch break, I want to ask you to describe for us in general

10 terms the conditions that existed during those 21 days that you were at

11 the Dretelj camp in terms of food, personal sanitation, the general sorts

12 of conditions that you had during those 21 days.

13 A. The hygienic conditions were very bad. We had nothing. We were

14 able to wash once out of a truck tank which was standing here. We

15 obtained a toilet seven or ten days later, and it was situated here.

16 And the food and the water were a great problem. We were given

17 one meal a day. A loaf of bread would be shared by about 15 to 16

18 people. The food came very hot, so you couldn't really eat it properly.

19 We were given water after lunch, and one more time during the day.

20 Q. How much space did you and the other people have who were in this

21 hangar for resting or sleeping?

22 A. We were lined up one against the other. We were -- it was

23 possible to lie down, but there was very little space between us. But as

24 there were so many of us, and it was a steel hangar, and there were many

25 of us, the temperature was very high. And this had an adverse effect on

1 us, of course.

2 Q. Because of the high temperature and the heat, did you and the

3 others have enough water to drink?

4 A. No.

5 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I can continue or we can take a

6 break at this time, if you wish.

7 JUDGE LIU: We'll resume at 2.30 this afternoon.

8 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

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1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

3 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. Witness, good afternoon.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 Q. Just before the break, you had begun to tell us about the

7 situation that you found after your arrival with the others at the Dretelj

8 camp. You were talking about food and water and the heat. I wanted to

9 ask you whether the situation in the camp changed on or about the 13th of

10 July, approximately two weeks after you arrived in the camp.

11 A. Yes, indeed.

12 Q. Could you tell us how things changed and why they changed, if you

13 know.

14 A. There'd been some fighting about 10 kilometres outside Capljina.

15 There was fighting between uncaptured Muslims who were trying to make a

16 breakthrough to the Mostar territory on one side and HVO soldiers on the

17 other, and both sides suffered losses. During those operations, we

18 received no food or water for three days.

19 Q. And during those three days, can you tell us how you and the

20 others responded or were affected by the lack of food and water?

21 A. We were already very weak, and this merely exacerbated the

22 situation in the camp.

23 Q. How did some of the prisoners react to that? How did they attempt

24 to relieve their thirst?

25 A. They drank their own urine.

1 Q. Now, Witness, I'd like to ask you if during those 21 days at

2 Dretelj you or others were beaten by the guards at the Dretelj camp.

3 A. Personally, there were those cases, things what happened to other

4 people, but once when some 20 of my -- of men from my unit tried to

5 escape.

6 Q. And how did that affect you or the others who remained in the

7 camp?

8 A. That day when it was -- when their flight was discovered, that

9 group -- a man came. He introduced himself as Commander Anicic, and split

10 the rest of my unit into groups of 13 and distributed them around other

11 rooms in the camp and started the interrogation of who had escaped, when

12 did he escape, how did they escape, and with all that, some blows were

13 dealt.

14 Q. Did you receive any blows?

15 A. I did.

16 Q. Now, during those three weeks in Dretelj, did you observe or hear

17 of beatings taking place of other prisoners?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was that a frequent occurrence or was it something that did not

20 occur very often?

21 A. Well, it depended on the situation outside.

22 Q. Could you -- perhaps you could explain that a little bit. What's

23 the "situation"? How would that affect the beatings?

24 A. Well, when there was fighting on the ground, it would affect

25 things in the camp.

1 Q. And again, if you could just -- just so we're clear exactly what

2 you're saying, could you describe how events outside the camp could affect

3 events inside the camp in respect of beatings, which is the topic I'm

4 asking you about now.

5 A. Following the 13th, that is, the losses suffered by both sides,

6 drunk -- soldiers would arrive drunk and then harass and beat inmates,

7 force them to drink alcohol as if it were water, took out some men, asked

8 them if anyone -- any one of them was related to another captured person.

9 So that the situation outside found its reflection in the camp itself.

10 Q. Witness, do you know if prisoners were forced to beat other

11 prisoners?

12 A. Yes, there were such instances, too.

13 Q. Can you tell us, please, what you know about that, what you saw,

14 what you heard.

15 A. I only saw when two brothers were slapping one another, and I

16 heard about a few other cases, but I did not eye witness them.

17 Q. Do you know about another incident in which a prisoner named Repak

18 was killed?

19 A. That is another thing that I heard about. He was engaged in a

20 fight with another prisoner. But that again, I did not see.

21 Q. During the time that you were at Dretelj, did any shooting take

22 place, that is, with firearms?

23 A. There was fire, I guess, to intimidate, but it would be about a

24 metre or a metre and a half above our heads, because we had been ordered

25 to either sit or lie down.

1 Q. Can you tell us -- first of all, you say you were sitting or lying

2 down. Where were you at the time you were sitting and -- or lying down?

3 A. In the metal hangar.

4 Q. Approximately how many hours a day did you and the others stay

5 inside that hangar?

6 A. We would come out before lunch, and then for the second time to

7 drink some water.

8 Q. And so those were the only two times during the day in which you

9 were allowed outside the hangar?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. Now, when you say that you and the others -- that the shooting was

12 taking place as you were sitting or laying down, where was the shooting

13 coming from?

14 A. From outside, from in front of the hangar.

15 Q. Do you know what sort of weapons were being used?

16 A. All I know, that those were automatic weapons; but what kind of, I

17 don't know.

18 Q. Now, when that shooting occurred, were the bullets able to pierce

19 through the metal of this hangar?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know what was the purpose of the shooting into the hangar

22 by those on the outside was?

23 A. Well, to intimidate us, I'd say.

24 Q. Were you or any of the other people in your hangar injured by any

25 of the bullets or the metal that was then flying around after this

1 shooting occurred?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you tell us about your own injury.

4 A. A slight injury in the buttock. It wasn't serious. But three men

5 around me sustained injuries, one on the temple and one on the arm, and

6 the third was hit in the spine.

7 Q. Did you or the others receive any medical treatment for those

8 injuries?

9 A. No, nothing from outside except Dr. Eso Boskailo who was inside.

10 He had some painkillers, and those three took those medicines.

11 Q. Now, this doctor whom you've mentioned, is this someone who was

12 made available to you by the authorities in the camp or not?

13 A. No. He was another prisoner from Trijebanj. He was a doctor on

14 duty for soldiers who were on the front line at Trijebanj.

15 Q. Witness, you mentioned at the beginning of your testimony that at

16 the time you were arrested, there were other civilians who were arrested.

17 I wanted to ask you whether you saw any civilians who were also prisoners

18 inside the Dretelj camp.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you know any of those prisoners from before?

21 A. I did. My neighbours, my relatives.

22 Q. Did you see any religious officials in the Dretelj camp?

23 A. I did, yes. I knew from before efendi Ahmet Alic, efendi Hasan,

24 who was the main efendi in the municipality of Capljina.

25 Q. Now, Witness, I'm going to ask that we use the ELMO again and look

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1 again at the photograph that you looked at already which was marked as

2 Exhibit 21.8.

3 While that's being arranged, Witness, let me ask you, do you know

4 if other prisoners were being kept in other buildings in the Dretelj camp

5 during the time that you were there?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And it may be necessary for you to take that photograph back into

8 your hand and then we'll put it on the ELMO again, but I want to ask you,

9 in this photograph, just going down a bit from the hangar that you've

10 circled, there appears to be another building that is partially

11 underground, and I wonder if you can -- if you can point to that building

12 for me so that we know that we're talking about the same one.

13 A. This one, you mean?

14 Q. No. I'm sorry. Going back to your hangar, the hangar that you

15 were in, and then moving down toward the bottom of the photograph and

16 toward the right a little bit. I'm sorry. Let me -- okay.

17 MR. STRINGER: I'm having difficulty with this, Mr. President.

18 Let me move ahead, and I think that I'll be able to make the connection.

19 At this point, I'd ask that we look at a videotape which the Trial

20 Chamber has not seen previously. It's Exhibit 23. It's a short videotape

21 footage, lasting about, I think, a minute and a half, which was obtained

22 from Danish television.

23 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you to just simply look at the video,

24 and then, after we've all looked at it, I'm going to ask you one or two

25 questions.

1 [Videotape played]

2 JUDGE LIU: Maybe somebody could turn the lights down a little

3 bit.

4 MR. STRINGER: We've already seen basically the most important

5 part. Perhaps since it's so short, I could ask we rewind so that we can

6 all look at it one more time.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MR. STRINGER:

9 Q. Now, Witness, going back to the photograph which is marked as

10 Exhibit 21.8, are you able to point out for us the location, if you can,

11 of the place that we just saw in the videotape?

12 A. [Indicates]

13 Q. Okay.

14 MR. STRINGER: And perhaps for the record, I ask the witness be

15 given a marker and he can place a circle around that.

16 A. [Marks]

17 MR. STRINGER:

18 Q. Witness, let me ask you, just looking at this photograph, are

19 there two buildings such as that which appear to be facing each other

20 across a concrete courtyard or pista in the middle?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, while you were being held at the Dretelj camp, did you see or

23 were you aware of prisoners being held in these other buildings that now

24 we've described or talked about?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And finally, in the videotape that we just saw, did you see any

2 people whom you recognise?

3 A. I did.

4 Q. Okay.

5 MR. STRINGER: And perhaps with the Court's permission, we could

6 play it one last time. I think we could fast forward, and I can tell them

7 when to slow down or to stop, and if we could turn the lights down again.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll watch the video once again.

9 [Videotape played]

10 MR. STRINGER: Stop there, thank you.

11 Q. Witness, is this the person that you recognise?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. Can you tell us who he is?

14 A. Ahmet Alic, the imam.

15 Q. Thank you. Witness, one last question about the videotape. Does

16 it appear to depict accurately the conditions, as far as you recall them,

17 that existed in the camp at Dretelj during the time that you were there?

18 A. More or less. Yes. I can see a person who is 15 kilogrammes

19 lighter, and others lost weight too.

20 MR. STRINGER: Okay. We have finished with the videotape and we

21 can now move on.

22 Q. Witness, you testified, then, on the 21st of July, you were moved

23 to a different place, or that you left Dretelj. Could you tell us, then,

24 where you went on the 21st of July.

25 A. I went to the Heliodrom with some other 400 or so persons. We

1 were transferred in civilian trucks.

2 Q. And these other persons, were they prisoners, like you, at the

3 Dretelj camp?

4 A. That's right.

5 Q. Now, from your arrival in the Heliodrom on the 21st of July, '93,

6 can you tell us how long you remained, then, detained at the Heliodrom

7 until you were released or moved to the next place.

8 A. On the 17th of December, that same year.

9 Q. So, now I'm going to ask you a series of questions about things

10 that occurred during those months you spent as a prisoner at the

11 Heliodrom. First of all, could you tell us what happened when you arrived

12 at the Heliodrom, and where you stayed or where you were placed upon your

13 arrival.

14 A. I spent the first four days in the school building, and the rest

15 of the time in the gymnasium which adjoined the school building.

16 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I'll ask that the witness be shown

17 Exhibit Number 20.8 which is a photograph.

18 Q. Now, Witness, in this photograph, are you able to recognise any of

19 the places where you were detained or held when you were at the Heliodrom?

20 A. This is the school building where I spent four days. And these

21 are two halls where prisoners were transferred because we were just too

22 many in the school building. And I slept in this area here.

23 Q. Okay. Witness, if I could ask you, if you could take the photo

24 with the pen, place a circle around the school building that you remained

25 at for the first four days, and then maybe place a number "1" inside that

1 circle. And then if you would circle, then, the second place where you

2 were held for the longer period, which I believe you called the gymnasium

3 or the sports hall.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. Could you place a number "2" in that one.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Okay. Very good. Thank you.

8 Witness, let me ask you, while you were in the Heliodrom, did you

9 see or have contact with any soldiers who were also staying in the

10 Heliodrom complex?

11 A. I didn't understand "soldier." What soldier?

12 Q. Maybe it was a bad question, and I'll try and ask a better one.

13 Did you or the other prisoners have contact with soldiers from any

14 different units or armies, not army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but of any

15 other armies or units?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who were those soldiers?

18 A. There was military police, they guarded us. And behind them here,

19 there was a group. Now, how many of them -- there was a group, and they

20 were introduced to us, the detainees. When they would bring us bread

21 leftover after their meals, they would introduce themselves as Tigers or

22 Thunderbolts.

23 Q. Do you know what armies those soldiers belonged to?

24 A. They said that they were Tigers and Thunderbolts from the Croatian

25 army.

1 Q. You said that they left you extra bread. How did these soldiers

2 treat you and the other prisoners there?

3 A. They had only come to the bars on the windows; and through the

4 bars, they would give us bread. And they sometimes took out some

5 prisoners to play basketball with them.

6 Q. During the time that you were being held at the Heliodrom, were

7 you taken out of the Heliodrom to perform forced labour at different

8 locations?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you tell us, if you recall, what groups or units that you

11 worked for at the various times that you were taken out to perform forced

12 labour?

13 A. I worked at the Bakina Luka. I worked in Zenica, in Rodoc, the

14 9th Battalion. I worked at Podhum, the 4th Battalion. I worked at

15 Santiceva Street. I worked for ATG Mrmak.

16 Q. How often did you work for ATG Mrmak?

17 A. Well, I would go there together with a group of some 30 of us who

18 went there almost every day for some two months.

19 Q. Now, who, if you know, was the commander of what you've called ATG

20 Mrmak?

21 A. Mr. Vinko Marinkovic [sic].

22 Q. Did he have a nickname?

23 A. Yes, Stela.

24 Q. How would you be taken out of the Heliodrom to the ATG Mrmak? How

25 were you transported?

1 A. We would go in a truck.

2 Q. Do you recall any of the people who would be the drivers who would

3 transport you?

4 A. The late Dinko.

5 Q. Was Dinko a member of the ATG Mrmak?

6 A. He was the driver.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

8 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I'm a bit late since we've moved on,

9 but Mr. President, it was a leading question. I think it should have been

10 phrased differently, that is, whether the witness knew to whom that man

11 belonged.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, I don't know which question you are directed

13 at. The question is:

14 Q. Do you recall any of the people who would be

15 the drivers who would transport you?

16 Then the answer is:

17 A. The late Dinko.

18 Q. Was Dinko a member of the ATG Mrmak?

19 A. He was the driver.

20 Well, I don't think that is a leading question, Mr. Seric.

21 You may proceed, Mr. Stringer.

22 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 Q. Witness, if you can recall approximately the month or the period

24 of time when you started going to the ATG Mrmak, the beginning of this

25 two-month period that you've mentioned?

1 A. The beginning of August. The end of July, beginning of August.

2 Some ten days after I arrived at the Heliodrom.

3 Q. And then during that next two-month period that you've described,

4 how often did you go to ATG Mrmak?

5 A. Almost every day, as I have already said.

6 Q. Now, when you say you were taken to the ATG Mrmak, can you

7 describe the place or the location that you would be taken to?

8 A. It was the road from the Bulevar which led towards the road going

9 to Siroki Brijeg and Listica up there, leading out of town. Actually,

10 from the Rondo. My mistake. From the Rondo.

11 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, at this time, I would like to ask

12 that the witness be shown Exhibit 11.18, which is a map which should not

13 contain any markings on it. We need a clean version.

14 Q. All right. Now, I know this is -- this size is a bit difficult to

15 work with. Perhaps we could do it this way: Witness, let me first ask

16 you to just take the map into your hand and take a look at it and get

17 oriented, and then if you can, to take the pen and to place a mark with an

18 "X" on the location that you are describing now as the location of ATG

19 Mrmak.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Okay. And now, while we're talking about that, tell us, please,

22 tell the Judges, what was at this location that you've marked with an

23 "X"? What was found there? When you would arrive, what did you find?

24 A. A house which had a basement and a first floor.

25 Q. And how often were you taken to this house during this two-month

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1 period that you've described?

2 A. I would spend most of my time during that period in the house and

3 around the house.

4 Q. What purpose was that house being used for?

5 A. It was the headquarters, the command from where they went to the

6 front line. From there, they went in all directions, depending on where

7 they were going.

8 Q. Okay. When you say it was the headquarters, just so we're clear,

9 what headquarters are you talking about? Headquarters of what?

10 A. The command of which the commander was Mr. Vinko Martinovic,

11 Stela.

12 Q. Now, during these two months that you were taken to work at this

13 place, how often did you see Stela, Vinko Martinovic?

14 A. Again, I must say that while I was there -- I was there almost

15 every day and I spent almost all the time there, so I was in relatively

16 close contact with Vinko Martinovic. I would make coffee, clean the

17 premises, and things like that.

18 Q. Who -- can you tell us, if you know, the names of other persons

19 whom you encountered in that headquarters during those two months?

20 A. There were Dubi, Dolma, Ernest Takac.

21 Q. Okay. How often did you see this person you've called Ernest

22 Takac?

23 A. Well, every day. He would come and go. He would pass by. He

24 would stay there.

25 Q. Did he have a nickname?

1 A. Brada, or beard.

2 Q. Now, you said that during the time you were in this house, you

3 would make coffee, clean the premises, things like that. Were there other

4 duties or tasks that you were given to perform during this two months that

5 you were taken to this headquarters?

6 A. At times, I would go to the front line. And if they needed

7 something to be carried, like a washing machine, something that was heavy,

8 then I would do that, together with the others who would be doing that

9 that day.

10 Q. Now, you said that you might be asked to carry a washing machine.

11 Tell us more about that, please. Can you explain what's happening. Why

12 would you have been asked to carry an item like a washing machine?

13 A. I would go to apartments and private homes that had been abandoned

14 and simply carry out the things that were of any value.

15 Q. And why did you do this? Is this something that you were told to

16 do?

17 A. Yes, the soldiers who would take us.

18 Q. And what unit did those soldiers belong to?

19 A. The unit called ATG Mrmak.

20 Q. This practice of going to apartments and private homes and

21 carrying out things of value, is this something that occurred often or

22 infrequently?

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

24 MR. MEEK: Yes, Mr. President, Your Honours. I object to the form

25 of that question. It assumes facts not in evidence. That question states

1 apartments and private homes when, in fact, Mr. Stringer just two

2 questions about -- excuse me, the witness just two sentences ago stated on

3 the record under oath these were abandoned. So how can they be private if

4 they are abandoned? I object to the form of the question.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stringer, maybe you should lay more

6 background for this issue.

7 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Your Honour.

8 Q. Tell us what you mean by "private homes," Witness.

9 A. A house that's not an apartment building, but a house that just

10 has one floor and an attic and a basement. Houses built by people out of

11 their own funds, with their own resources. That's what I call private

12 homes.

13 Q. And getting back to my question, this practice of taking goods out

14 of these private homes and apartments, how often did -- were you given

15 this task?

16 A. I did not go many times, maybe five or six times, together with

17 others. I spent more of my time in the headquarters, but I did go on such

18 missions five or six times.

19 Q. Do you know how frequently this practice occurred?

20 A. I can't tell you exactly. I know about the times that I went, and

21 I know that things were transported in these trucks uphill above Mostar,

22 and they ended up in the villages of Western Herzegovina.

23 Q. How do you know that these things ended up in the villages of

24 Western Herzegovina?

25 A. I would go there and unload. I would pass there every day, from

1 the Mostar Heliodrom, and I knew where that road went. And normally,

2 before all these events, I would move along these roads, so I knew them.

3 Q. During those two months at the headquarters, how many prisoners

4 would be taken to that place with you on those mornings?

5 A. Twenty to thirty.

6 Q. What would happen to those prisoners upon their arrival at the

7 headquarters?

8 A. I would mostly stay in the headquarters, and a couple of other

9 men. There were men working around the cars, the vehicles. There were

10 those who went to the front line, the people who were attached to the

11 command, should anything be needed. And one group went nonstop to the

12 front line.

13 Q. Just to clarify, you're talking about prisoners now going to the

14 front line?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was Stela present when prisoners were sent to the front line or

17 when prisoners engaged in looting?

18 A. He was not present in the looting ever. As for going to the front

19 line, he knew that prisoners were going to the front line. But I did not

20 see him being present when the looting occurred.

21 Q. Was he aware that looting was taking place?

22 A. The soldiers who were his subordinates would look for a couple of

23 men to go and -- on these missions. Now, whether Stela knew that they

24 were going looting or doing something else, I cannot ascertain.

25 Q. Did Stela have a commander, a superior officer?

1 A. Probably. He must have had, but I never saw him. I just heard

2 that it was Mr. Tuta, whom I have never seen in my life.

3 Q. Now, can you tell us about that? Where were you or how did you

4 hear about Mr. Tuta?

5 A. They were talking amongst themselves, that they had to go, had to

6 contact him, but I did not see the man, nor did he come to see Stela while

7 I was there. I didn't see him, nor did I ever know him or meet him.

8 Q. Now, when you say "they had to go" or "they had to contact him,"

9 do you know who would go or who would contact Stela, based on what you saw

10 and heard in the headquarters?

11 A. Well, this person that I didn't know, Tuta, how and why, I don't

12 know. I'm just telling you what I heard. I didn't see the man. I didn't

13 meet the man. I had no contact with him.

14 Q. And, Witness, my question is again based on what you saw and heard

15 in the headquarters. Do you know who did have contact with him?

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

17 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I object. This question

18 has been asked and answered. This witness does not know. He said it

19 clearly two times. I object to this.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. I agree with you.

21 Mr. Stringer, can you escape this question?

22 MR. STRINGER: Very well, Mr. President. Yes.

23 Q. Now, Witness, you testified about prisoners going to the front

24 line, and I wanted to ask you --

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. I wanted to ask you if, again based on having worked in the

2 headquarters those two months, you learned what was the zone or area of

3 responsibility of this unit ATG Mrmak.

4 A. Yes, because I also went there in due time.

5 Q. Now, Witness, taking the map again, which is Exhibit 11.18, I'm

6 going to ask you to look at it, and if you can, perhaps just place two

7 marks and what you consider to be the boundaries of the area of

8 responsibility of this unit.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. And for the record, Witness, I see that you've placed two blue

11 marks which appear to delineate a section of the road that's called the

12 Bulevar; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, only the line was 50 metres behind, in the Health Centre.

14 Q. Okay. And I think to -- maybe to give an even better picture of

15 the front line as far as you knew it to be, I'm going to ask the witness

16 be shown Exhibits 14.3 and 14.4, two photographs.

17 Okay. And I'll ask the witness just to take a look at them first,

18 just so he can look at them well enough to become oriented. And then if

19 he -- Witness, if you would -- if you can, on each of those photographs,

20 can you place a mark which would again indicate what you believe to be the

21 area of responsibility of the ATG Mrmak.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Okay, Witness. Thank you. Now, just for the record, you've made

24 some markings on these two photographs. Would the area within these

25 markings, would this correspond to the same area that you've marked on the

1 map which is Exhibit 11.18?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. Thank you. We can set those aside now.

4 On those occasions when you did go to the front line from the

5 headquarters of ATG Mrmak, could you tell us the types of tasks that you

6 were required to perform.

7 A. If necessary, I would carry ammunition or something else for the

8 soldiers on the front line, escorted by one of the soldiers.

9 Q. And what were the conditions in the areas in which you worked?

10 Was it relatively safe or was it unsafe?

11 A. You mean -- are you referring to the prisoners who went to do work

12 or you mean the separation line where the prisoners went to work or

13 something else? I think that's...

14 Q. No, I think that's correct. When you and other prisoners went to

15 work on what I think you called the front line, tell us, what were the

16 conditions there in terms of whether it was dangerous or whether it was a

17 safe place.

18 A. Of course not. Every line is unsafe. People were getting killed

19 on both sides, on any dividing line --

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

21 MR. SERIC: [No interpretation]

22 JUDGE LIU: Sorry, I did not get any interpretation.

23 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] The witness has shown us a larger area

24 without indicating the front line. Mr. President, the question by the

25 Prosecutor is based on the assumption that the witness has told us where

1 the line is, but the witness has shown us a larger area that does not

2 indicate only the front line. So we don't know what the witness is

3 talking about.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer. Maybe we could show this witness

5 the photos again and ask the witness to draw a clear line of the

6 confrontation line.

7 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President. Perhaps we could go with just

8 one of the photographs. Perhaps we can work with Exhibit 14.4 to see

9 whether that will be sufficient. And I would suggest, don't put any marks

10 on the photo yet, okay. Let's put it on the ELMO for a minute and talk

11 about it.

12 I don't know about anyone else, but it would assist me if we could

13 turn the photo 90 degrees to the left. Yes. And if we could just move it

14 down a little bit so that the area that's already been marked by the

15 witness is centered in the image that we're seeing. I think we can start

16 to work that way. Thank you.

17 Q. Now, Witness, let me ask you, first of all, when you went to work

18 on the front line, in this photograph, are you able to point to any of the

19 areas in which you worked?

20 A. First, this part of the building didn't exist at the time. Here,

21 at the corner of this building, there was a bunker. Here, across the

22 road, the road was barricaded with sandbags. To reach the line, you had

23 to pass through the building, and the extreme end of the line was at the

24 corner where there was a bunker. And then the line went up here along

25 this way, up to about as far as this.

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1 Q. So the line is not something that ran along the Bulevar itself,

2 but was, in fact, away from and to the west of the Bulevar among these

3 buildings. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay. Now, we can try -- perhaps you could take a different pen.

6 I see a green one next to your computer screen. And perhaps it would

7 assist us if you could take that pen and, making a dotted line, simply

8 indicate the confrontation line or the location of the bunkers and the

9 fortifications which you've described.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Okay. Thank you. Witness, when -- let me just take a step back.

12 You've made marks on this photograph now in green, indicating the true

13 front line, or the confrontation line in that area of the Bulevar. When

14 you say you worked on the front line, are you saying that you worked in

15 the area where you've made these green markings?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What tasks did you perform, and other prisoners whom you worked

18 with, what tasks were you prisoners performing in this area?

19 A. Bags were filled, bunkers had to be made, the area had to be

20 cleaned.

21 Q. And when you were carrying out these tasks, were you in a position

22 of risk in relation to the combatants, that is, the ABiH on one side and

23 the HVO or the ATG Mrmak people on the other side?

24 A. From Mrmak ATG, that is, from their soldiers -- its soldiers were

25 not a threat. The threat came from those on the other side, if those

1 soldiers on the other side fired, perhaps, and they were in mutual

2 conflict.

3 Q. Okay. So again just to be clear, could you describe the threat?

4 What was the situation down there for you and the other prisoners who were

5 working? What was the threat?

6 A. Well, you walk, you are carrying those bags or making a bunker and

7 there's fire all around, so naturally there's a good chance of being hit,

8 just as many people were killed during these skirmishes whilst prisoners

9 when they worked along the front lines throughout Mostar.

10 Q. Now, we'll talk about this in a little while. You were eventually

11 wounded, but you were wounded working in a different area; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Not that I was wounded directly by a bullet, but my arm was

14 injured. And I still suffer consequences because I was not extended

15 proper medical aid at the time.

16 Q. And where did that -- where did you receive that injury? Where

17 were you working at that time?

18 A. On Santiceva Street.

19 Q. Now, coming back to this photograph in this area that we're

20 talking about, did you see any other prisoners or do you know of other

21 prisoners who were injured while they were working in this area?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Now, Witness, I'd like to ask you about some things which would

24 relate not to this area but to the headquarters of the ATG Mrmak. First

25 of all, I want to ask you if you ever received beatings by anyone when you

1 were working at the headquarters.

2 A. Once.

3 Q. And can you describe that for us, please, and who beat you.

4 A. Mr. Ernest Takac beat me badly because I had to point all things

5 green. And after that, he came and got me by my feet and hands and threw

6 me out of the window of the room that I was working in.

7 Q. Okay. We may have a little bit of a confusion in the transcript,

8 so I just want to clarify that. You made a reference to "all things

9 green," and I'm not sure it came through in my language. Can you describe

10 what you mean by "all things green"? What is that about?

11 A. I had put on a green T-shirt, shorts, green -- everything was

12 green, and green is the colour which is the symbol of Muslims. It is an

13 Islamic colour, and therefore, all dressed in green, I was

14 extra-extremist, extra -- somebody who is fond of green and all the rest,

15 who loves Muslimhood above all.

16 Q. Now, did you put on these green clothes on your own or did someone

17 else ask you to do that?

18 A. No, I did not do it for -- of my own will. I wouldn't do it today

19 either. I have no -- I don't see what purpose that could serve.

20 Q. Well, who told you to put on this green clothing while you were at

21 the headquarters?

22 A. Dinko and Ernest Takac, so that later on they could pull my leg.

23 They could tease me.

24 Q. Now, you said that Takac beat you badly and then threw you out of

25 the window. Were you injured by that?

1 A. Wounded? Well, to me, a wound comes from a bullet or something

2 like that. So I was not wounded when that happened. I was beaten all

3 over, but I wasn't wounded.

4 Q. Did Takac, Ernest Takac, have a gun or a pistol when he was

5 beating you?

6 A. He didn't beat me with a pistol or a rifle. Of course he had a

7 pistol behind his belt, but he was beating me with his fists and feet. He

8 hit me some seven or eight times, because -- finally, I had to say, "I

9 love green." And finally, he took out his pistol and said he'd kill me.

10 He didn't do that.

11 I stayed in that kitchen. I stayed behind in that kitchen and he

12 left.

13 Q. What did he do with the pistol when he drew it?

14 A. He got me by my chin and said, I'll kill you, and then you won't

15 love green or anything. And after that, he put the pistol back and left.

16 Q. Did you ever observe Stela beat anyone or mistreat anyone at this

17 headquarters?

18 A. Only once, when he hit a man who was -- whom people called

19 "Professor" who had refused to obey to discard certain things that he had

20 on him, that he had been given either by some friends or perhaps received

21 by his family. He never laid a finger on me.

22 Q. All right. Let's -- this man, the professor, how old was he, if

23 you know, approximately?

24 A. Well, 50ish; 50, 55.

25 Q. Was he a member of the army?

1 A. I have no idea. I did not see that man before or after that.

2 Only some people who must have known him addressed him as "Professor,

3 Professor," but I did not see him before or after that.

4 Q. You say that you saw Stela hit him. Did others see that incident;

5 and if so, who?

6 A. Well, some -- there were a number of us there. As a matter of

7 fact, we were all there because we were about to leave for the Heliodrom

8 to board the truck. And the order was that nobody was to carry anything,

9 and this one - I don't know why - refused to put down whatever he had, and

10 Stela got that bag and threw it into a container and then pushed him, and

11 pushed him into the garage that was next to that house. And in the

12 garage, there was one of those pits, as they usually are in garages. And

13 he was there for about half an hour, and then eventually he got ready and

14 came to the Heliodrom with us.

15 Q. What was his condition when he came out of the garage?

16 A. He was all wet, because there was some water in that pit, or water

17 came from outside. I don't know. But at any rate, he was soaked.

18 Q. I'd like for you to describe this pit and this garage. Do you

19 know the purpose of the pit in this garage, what it was used for?

20 A. Well, as in any other garage. There was a garage. And in the

21 garage, there was a pit for car repair, that is, this hollow, a channel,

22 we call it a pit, for car repair.

23 Q. So this is where a person could stand underneath a car and work

24 with the car above him. Is that correct?

25 A. Well, not exactly stand, but almost. A metre and 20 or so.

1 That's how they usually build them.

2 Q. Did you know a prisoner named Seno Pajo?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

5 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object to the

6 question, because the examination is now moving in a direction

7 necessitating answers which go beyond the scope of the indictment, and the

8 only foundation for them could be perhaps a crime not covered by the

9 indictment.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, at this moment, we don't know where the

11 Prosecutor is leading us. Mr. Stringer, would you give us some

12 explanation about your direction.

13 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Your Honour. I intend to lead the witness to

14 another incident similar in some respects to the incident he just

15 described. Every such incident is not alleged in the indictment but is

16 certainly evidence of the intent of the accused, his willingness to

17 mistreat prisoners in the presence of other prisoners and in the presence

18 of his subordinates. And I simply intend to lead the witness to another

19 incident which he witnessed with his own eyes at the headquarters.

20 I believe very strongly that it is extremely relevant to the

21 charges in the indictment, and it is not beyond the scope. I can go into

22 greater detail and inform Your Honour exactly what I would like to lead,

23 but I'm going to hold off just for the moment. Perhaps we can resolve

24 this without my doing so.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

1 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is a situation

2 similar to the one we had last week when the Prosecutor started asking

3 questions which could lead to establishing certain circumstances or facts

4 which were questionable and which might indicate that a crime had been

5 committed by the first accused. And the Chamber accepted the objection of

6 Mr. Meek and suggested to the Prosecution to avoid the examination which

7 would lead to adding charges which are not included in the indictment.

8 I believe Mr. Stringer confirmed that I was right when he said

9 that he was about to prove the intent of my client. Now, in view of the

10 circumstances, or the choice -- I shouldn't like to talk about this before

11 the witness. But nevertheless, the choice of a method or something could

12 be pointing at the intent, and that intent is not a part of facts that is

13 the substance of the crime which is -- with which my client is not charged

14 in the present indictment.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stringer, we are only interested to hear the

16 incidents that are charged in the indictment. And I think the Trial

17 Chamber will make the conclusions about intent of the accused on those

18 issues. So we'll give you the permission to continue, but only limit

19 yourself to those incidents that are charged in the indictment.

20 MR. STRINGER: I will indeed do that, Mr. President. The

21 indictment very clearly charges that prisoners were mistreated, both on

22 the front line and at the headquarters, and this is such an incident that

23 falls squarely within the indictment, as well as being relevant to issues

24 involving the intent of the accused, and again, issues regarding

25 instigation of subordinates by committing misconduct and crimes in the

1 presence of his subordinates.

2 So in my view, Mr. President, and again, I know you're at a

3 disadvantage because you don't know what we're about to lead, but I can

4 only say that I very strongly disagree with counsel that this is something

5 that somehow falls beyond the scope of the indictment. I also disagree

6 with counsel's suggestion that there is something questionable or -- yes,

7 "questionable" was the word that he used.

8 I think, again it is your -- you are the Trial Chamber. You will

9 decide what is questionable and what is not. In our view, it is an

10 incident the witness will testify about from his personal knowledge,

11 having seen it with his own eyes, and in our view, this is not anything

12 that's is questionable and it falls well within the four corners of what

13 is alleged in this indictment.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

15 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honours, if we all

16 together, who are here, including you, Your Honours, find in your

17 indictment the name of the -- of this victim, then I will withdraw my

18 objection.

19 MR. STRINGER: I can respond, Mr. President, if you wish.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, no, no, no. We are not debating this matter.

21 We will give you some leeway for you to continue, but just bear in mind

22 the strong objections from Defence counsel and the warning sent by this

23 Trial Chamber.

24 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President. I will do that.

25 Q. Witness, let me ask you -- well, I did ask you if you knew another

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1 prisoner named Seno Pajo. I don't know that I got your answer. Do you

2 know such a prisoner or did you know such a prisoner?

3 A. I do, yes.

4 Q. Did you see any incidents involving that prisoner take place at

5 the headquarters of ATG Mrmak, and if so, can you describe what you saw.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Yes. Could you please go ahead and tell us what you saw.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Mr. Seric.

9 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Well, this is precisely this situation

10 that I'm talking about and because of which I objected, that is, the

11 direction that the direct examination has taken or is taking.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, after consultations among the Judges, we believe

14 that what we are going to hear will have some probative value, so we would

15 like to hear what happened next. But bear in mind that this incident

16 should be clearly stipulated in the indictment and be totally relevant

17 to the counts listed in the indictment. Otherwise, this Trial Chamber

18 will not take into consideration of that part of the testimony made by the

19 witness.

20 You may proceed, Mr. Stringer.

21 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

22 Q. Witness, we've been discussing a witness. I've asked you about a

23 witness named Pajo. You've said that you are aware of an incident which

24 involved him at the headquarters. Could you tell us, please, what you

25 saw, what happened in this incident.

1 A. Seno Pajo was lying under the truck, repairing that truck, and

2 from a package of grenades, Stela got one grenade, threw it through the

3 window, and the shrapnel fragment of that grenade wounded Seno Pajo. But

4 once again, it was -- it was a grenade which was thrown out of the window,

5 not with the intent of wounding Seno. It was just thrown out randomly.

6 Q. Where were you when this incident occurred?

7 A. In the office, because I had brought that package, that box of

8 grenades, and I had taken it, unloaded it from the car which had brought

9 that load of grenades, and I had taken it into that office.

10 Q. So you were present with Stela when he threw the grenade out the

11 window?

12 A. Yes. And then when we heard the scream, we both ran out, and

13 Dolma and two or three other prisoners were already putting Seno in a car,

14 and Dolma took him to the -- to Bijeli Brijeg, to the hospital there.

15 Q. You said that you don't think it was the intent to injure that

16 prisoner. If you know, what was the reason why the grenade was thrown out

17 the window by Stela?

18 A. To test the grenade.

19 Q. You mentioned that Mr. Pajo was taken to the hospital by someone.

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. And I just wanted to make sure we have that name. Can you tell us

22 again, please, the name of the person whom you said was putting him into

23 the car to take him to the hospital.

24 A. Nino -- Nino, whose nickname was Dolma.

25 Q. Do you know what was his rank or his position?

1 A. He was, I think -- I mean, I think he was a commander of some unit

2 or something. I don't think he was just a foot soldier, but I'm not

3 sure.

4 Q. Was he a member of the ATG Mrmak?

5 A. Well, he was there. He went to the front line in that area. Now,

6 I mean, I never looked at his military card. I never asked him if he

7 belonged to that unit, but he went to the line which was within the --

8 which was the responsibility of that unit.

9 MR. STRINGER: Witness, do you -- Mr. President, I'm -- I might be

10 able to finish before 4.00, I hope so, but I ask at this time to go into

11 private session.

12 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session.

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19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

20 4.07 p.m., to be reconvened on

21 Tuesday, the 6th day of November, 2001,

22 at 9.30 a.m.

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