1 Monday, 6 December 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Registrar, good morning to you. Could you

6 call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour. Case Number

8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, registrar.

10 Mr. Oric, can you receive interpretation in your own language?

11 THE ACCUSED: [No Interpretation].

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, and good morning to you. You may sit

13 down.

14 Appearances, Prosecution.

15 MS. SELLERS: Good morning, Your Honours, I am Patricia Sellers

16 representing the Prosecution, with co-counsel Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio, and

17 our case manager, Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you Ms. Sellers, and good morning to you and

19 your team.

20 Appearances for the Defence.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. My name

22 is Vasvija Vidovic, together with Mr. John Jones. I appear on behalf of

23 Mr. Naser Oric. Joining us today are our legal assistant, Jasmina Cosic,

24 and our case manager, Mr. Roberts.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, and good morning to you.

1 Any preliminary matters? Yes, Mr. Jones.

2 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour. Just one which concerns the

3 scheduling and time estimates for witnesses. We've received an amended

4 witness list and it occurs to us that it seems the Prosecution isn't

5 building into their scheduling allowance, or sufficient allowance for the

6 time for us to cross-examine witnesses. And by way of example, today for

7 Ratko Nikolic, the estimated time of testimony is three hours, and then we

8 have three hours for the witness tomorrow. That would leave us after

9 housekeeping matters with half an hour for cross-examination. We've said

10 from the start as a general rule we need about as much time for

11 cross-examination as the Prosecution need for examination-in-chief. In

12 fact, I think we've been shorter than that with the exception of Dr. Gow

13 which was exceptional. But, for example, with today's witness I'll need

14 three hours two and a half, three hours. And with the Prosecution

15 scheduling a witness every day but at the same time planning to spend

16 three hours in examination-in-chief means we won't have time for

17 cross-examination but we will seem to be at blame when we run over. So we

18 would ask the Prosecution in their scheduling make allowance for the fact

19 that we need virtually as much time in cross-examination as they need for

20 examination-in-chief.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: That makes much sense to me.

22 Mr. Di Fazio.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Absolutely. If there's an error creeping into our

24 scheduling, then --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: It has been there for quite some time, actually.

1 The only reason why we could manage is that it was taking less time than

2 anticipated --

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: -- both for the direct and the cross.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand that and I certainly don't -- the

6 Prosecution certainly doesn't want to deprive the Defence for their

7 rightful time for cross-examination. We'll bear that in mind and ensure

8 that our scheduling takes more into -- the Defence's requirements more

9 comprehensively into account. We'll deal with that.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's start with this one first.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Today's witness, who will be leading?

13 MR. DI FAZIO: I will.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And how much time do you think you require?

15 MR. DI FAZIO: On paper, it's -- it will take me -- I would have

16 thought about two hours. With this particular witness, knowing -- having

17 spoken to him, it's going to be slower than one would normally expect.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So the chances are there is more than a

19 slight chance that we will have this witness again tomorrow morning.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: I'd say there's a pretty good chance of that.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Then there is the next one which was scheduled --

22 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't have the list before me --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not mentioning names because the list that I

24 have doesn't show whether they are protected witnesses or not, so I'm not

25 taking any chances. Then you have the next one, which is also on paper --

1 this person was scheduled for today originally.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: And again I see three hours here. Who will be in

4 charge of that witness?

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Mr. Wubben will be, I assume. Yes, yes -- no, I'm

6 sorry. I apologise. That's Ms. Richardson.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: And then the next one is Mr. Wubben.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay. And Mr. Jones or Madam Vidovic, the next

10 two witnesses, the one which is scheduled for today but which we will hear

11 tomorrow and the -- then the following one which is scheduled -- was

12 originally scheduled for tomorrow, which we will --

13 [Defence counsel confer]

14 MR. JONES: Yes, well, I would think for today's witness that I

15 would probably need around two and a half hours.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And the others?

17 MR. JONES: Two hours until the next one.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Two hours, the next one?

19 MR. JONES: Yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And the one after him?

21 MR. JONES: Let me just check, Your Honour.

22 [Defence counsel confer]

23 MR. JONES: Two and a half hours for the one after that.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So it seems clear to me, Mr. Di Fazio, that the

25 witness who was scheduled originally for Friday, Friday the 9th, I don't

1 think you should even try to bring him over if he is not here.

2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Because if --

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. I'm informed that two are here, which

6 basically means one -- two. And another two are coming today. What's the

7 big idea of bringing someone today if he or she will not be testifying

8 before today, today -- week?

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, well that wouldn't be very sensible, I agree,

10 if Your Honours --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Apart from the expense.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: The flight remains the same.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Can I confer and find out exactly what the position

15 is with my colleagues regarding witnesses, if Your Honours please.

16 [Prosecution counsel confer]

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. If Your Honours please, it's worked out

18 that way. We've had some delays in the case with various issues arising

19 from time to time and we'll try to work on the basis of one witness a day

20 or thereabouts. So we've been --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: What happened with this -- much, but there you are.

22 I mean, this witness has been here since Tuesday of last week.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, that is so, if Your Honours please. But we

24 did expect to go faster on Friday and we had the problems of --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: But you couldn't go faster on Friday, neither one

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1 nor the either.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: But this has happened, but I understand what

3 Your Honour is saying and we can try and ensure that we don't bring them

4 in so fast and be a little more flexible. I'm alive to the issue and I'll

5 speak to the team about that and we'll make sure that we try and keep

6 them -- get them in closer to their anticipated time of giving evidence.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: It seems, Mr. Di Fazio, that there's no way we can

8 deal with more than three witnesses in the course of this week. This one

9 plus another two. On the 8th we have plenary.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours, I -- we had been trying I think in

11 accordance with the Trial Chamber's witnesses to try and get through one a

12 day, at least with crime-based witnesses, and it just doesn't always work

13 out that way for various reasons and I think that's been creeping in.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, you know what the problem is and try to make

15 adjustments accordingly.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: We will.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: The reason why I'm saying is this is -- keeping

18 someone here for an entire week without being called to give evidence,

19 it's costly, especially if the person comes with the entire family, as

20 sometimes happens with certain protected witnesses and I suppose also

21 frustrating. I mean, it would be frustrating to me at least. I don't

22 know whether they enjoy being here in The Hague, which is a lovely city.

23 But ...

24 MR. DI FAZIO: I think it has been going reasonably --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: The tourist is one thing and waiting to give

1 testimony is another.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I think it has been going

3 reasonably smoothly. What you say is correct about this last witness.

4 That shouldn't happen. And as I said and the only thing --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I think we've been doing really fine. I think

6 we have been doing really fine.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: But when I see three hours, three hours, et cetera,

9 Mr. Jones is right.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: I --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't work on the assumption that I give you three

12 hours and then give them what's left.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: We have to allow -- what I can do is, if my

15 colleagues agree, is to say: Okay, you have three hours 45 minutes every

16 sitting. Divide them equally by -- share them -- divide the time equally

17 amongst you or between you. That's the only thing. But then there are

18 some witnesses where you can do that, no harm ensues. And there are some

19 other witnesses that are so important, either for the Prosecution or for

20 the Defence or for us, that cutting down on the time allotted will be a

21 mistake.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll personally undertake to review the remaining

23 witnesses before Christmas this afternoon.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll do that myself.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: And I'll give you my assessment of what's --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you so much.

4 And thank you, Mr. Jones, for raising the matter because it has

5 been on my mind as well.

6 Any further preliminaries?

7 MR. DI FAZIO: No.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I see none.

9 Usher, please.

10 [The witness entered court]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Nikolic.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I want to make sure that you are

14 receiving interpretation in our own language. Please confirm that you

15 are.

16 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: You are about to start giving yesterday. And before

20 you do so, according or pursuant to our rules you need to enter a solemn

21 declaration equivalent to an oath that -- or to the effect that in the

22 course of your testimony you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth,

23 and nothing but the truth. The lady standing beside you who is our usher

24 is going to hand you the text of the solemn declaration. Please read it

25 out loud and that will be your solemn undertaking with this Tribunal, that

1 you will be testifying the truth.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please sit down.

5 You are now going to be asked a set of questions by Mr. Di Fazio,

6 whom you've met already. In your own interest, I suggest to you that you

7 be as brief as possible in your answers. And if the question calls for a

8 yes or no answer, then you just answer yes or no without going into any

9 details unless you are asked to go into details otherwise you will be here

10 for days and days. When Mr. Di Fazio finishes with his questions, then

11 Mr. Jones, who is appearing for Naser Oric, will cross-examine you. He

12 will put to you a set of questions, which you also have a responsibility

13 to answer.

14 There is one thing I need to make clear to you, namely that you

15 have no right to distinguish between the questions being asked by the

16 Prosecution and the questions put to you by the Defence. Both the

17 Prosecution and the Defence have a right to put questions to you as a

18 witness, and you have, pursuant to the solemn declaration that you entered

19 this morning, a solemn duty to answer each question truthfully and fully,

20 irrespective of who is putting it to you. Did I make myself clear to you?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So then we can start.

23 Mr. Di Fazio, he is all yours.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And if you see that he is running at a tangent,

1 please get him back into the fold straight away yourself.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, I will do my best, if Your Honours

3 please.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

5 WITNESS: RATKO NIKOLIC

6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Examined by Mr. Di Fazio:

8 Q. All right, Mr. Nikolic, I just want to put some personal details

9 to you --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: You can lead him there.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: I will.

12 Q. I just want to put some personal details to you and then you can

13 tell me if they're correct by simply telling yes or no. You were a Serb

14 of Serb ethnicity, you --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please speak into the

16 microphone otherwise we can't hear you.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll start again and I apologise.

18 Q. You are of Serb ethnicity. You were born in the small village of

19 Opravdici, which is in the municipality of Bratunac, and you were born

20 there in 1945. You're also known as Pajo. You're married and your wife's

21 name is Marija. You have two sons, Goran and Zoran and you've never been

22 a member of a political party --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before he answers yes or no. This Pajo,

24 is he also known as Pajo or was -- his father's name was Pajo?

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Ah, yes. I'm very grateful to Your Honours for

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1 that.

2 Q. I'll alter the details. Your father's name was Pajo and you've

3 never been a member of a political party. Now, are all those details

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I want to ask you about particulars that applied -- personal

7 particulars that applied to you in 1992 and 1993. Again, you were living

8 in a small hamlet calls Zonjici which is close to Opravdici. Up until the

9 1st of May, 1992, you worked as a watchman, a night watchman, or a

10 watchman at a company called the 21st of May company. And thereafter for

11 the remainder of 1992 and very early 1993 you continued to work on your

12 farm, which is just near Zonjici. All of those details correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Your farm was about 16 Hectares and had chicken, cattle, sheep,

15 sometimes grew wheat, flax, it had houses and outbuildings and barns on

16 the farm. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you some questions about the geography

19 of your area. Can you tell the Trial Chamber the distance from the small

20 hamlet of Zonjici to Siljkovici, Kravica and Opravdici. If I were to

21 stand in your hamlet of Zonjici, how far away would those three villages

22 and hamlets be, approximately?

23 A. The distance is one and a half kilometres from Kravica; as the

24 crow flies, perhaps as far as 4 or 500 metres.

25 Q. And what about the other two hamlets, Siljkovici and Opravdici?

1 A. Opravdici are just above Zonjici. The distance is 1 kilometre.

2 Q. And if I stood in Zonjici, would I have a clear view of the hamlet

3 of Siljkovici?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. I want you to look at a map that I produce to you.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, these have got arrows on

7 them, but nothing else, no other writings or anything on them. I don't

8 think it's in contention that these towns or hamlets exist. And I only

9 want to give the map to provide a sort of perspective to the Trial

10 Chamber.

11 Perhaps if they can be put on the ELMO very briefly.

12 Q. Now, all I want you to do, Mr. Nikolic, is look over at this map

13 which I think you've seen before, and point out these three -- three

14 little hamlets and villages that are spoken of, Opravdici, Kravica, and

15 Siljkovici. Do you see those?

16 A. Opravdici --

17 Q. No. Mr. Nikolic, Mr. Nikolic --

18 A. I can't see it here.

19 Q. No, no. Mr. Nikolic -- all right. Have a look there. Can you

20 see them?

21 A. [Witness complies].

22 Q. Siljkovici.

23 A. [Witness complies].

24 Q. Thank you very much.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'll tender that into

1 evidence. Yes, and could it be provided with an exhibit number?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: This will -- being tendered, received, and marked as

3 Prosecution Exhibit P45 --

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, P453.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: P453 --

6 THE REGISTRAR: P453.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: 453. 453. Thank you.

8 MR. JONES: Sorry, I hate to interrupt Your Honour. It's just

9 that my learned friend was also asking the distance from Zonjici to

10 Siljkovici. And since he put to him that it was -- there was a clear view

11 of Siljkovici from Zonjici, I think we should have an answer from the

12 witness as to how far it is from Zonjici to Siljkovici, because he hasn't

13 answered that question which was put to him yet.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you put the question again, please, Mr. Di

15 Fazio.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm grateful to Mr. Jones.

17 Q. The distance between Zonjici and Siljkovici, can you tell us that?

18

19 A. The distance between Zonjici and Siljkovici is not more than --

20 because Kravica is a bit lower down, so the distance as the crow flies

21 would be about 400 metres.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for a moment

23 and may I look at the exhibit, please.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One moment. What's the distance as the crow

25 flies between Kravica and Siljkovici?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The distance between Kravica and

2 Siljkovici, Siljkovici is a bit higher up and Kravica is a bit lower down.

3 As the crow flies, the line would be vertical. Siljkovici is higher up

4 and Kravica is lower down. If you look down that vertical line, I think

5 the distance would be 100 metres.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So -- and Zonjici then is -- how far is it from

7 Kravica, Zonjici, as the crow flies?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Between Zonjici and Kravica are the

9 distances not more than 300 metres as the crow flies.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Basically in other words between Siljkovici and

11 Kravica the distance is of the width of this room times 2? Double the

12 width of this room? Yeah, because 100 metres.

13 What did you say?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As Kravica is in a valley, that's

15 the direction. Because Kravica is broken up and up on the hills there is

16 Siljkovici. And so it's a vertical line.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically what you're telling me is that as the

18 crow flies, if one were to draw a line from Siljkovici to Zonjici, it's

19 just 300, 400 metres you're saying, 400 metres?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't tell you exactly but

21 Siljkovici is up here and then Kravica is down there and then there is

22 Zonjici up there, so that's the area.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's less than half a kilometre in other words.

24 I mean -- all right. I hope we'll be able to see this when we go on-site.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, yes, yes, Your Honours.

1 There's just one other matter. Do you Your Honours see Zonjici

2 there on the map?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course I see Zonjici.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: I just wanted to make sure that the Trial Chamber

5 could see that -- see it and I don't need to lead the witness on that.

6 Thank you very much. I'm finished with the map.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it is. 453, this map. The map that has been

8 exhibited, 453.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

10 Q. In 1992 and very early 1993, did you own a weapon, a gun, of any

11 type?

12 A. No.

13 Q. I want to ask you a question about village guards. Was there a

14 village guard in Zonjici, a village guard system of any sort or

15 description at all?

16 A. No.

17 Q. About how many households were there in the hamlet of Zonjici?

18 A. Only two, myself and my relative Milovan. And four others had

19 already moved out of the village several years before.

20 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber if you're aware of there being

21 village guards or any sort of guarding system in existence in Opravdici,

22 Siljkovici, and Kravica.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we are not receiving

24 interpretation into B/C/S. It's possible that the witness is not

25 receiving interpretation either.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, for raising that.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I want to make sure that interpretation is arriving

4 now, is reaching you now? Yes --

5 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Could I ask you to repeat your question,

7 Mr. Di Fazio, please.

8 MR. DI FAZIO:

9 Q. My question was this: Were you -- did you know of any village

10 guard or village guard system operating in those hamlets of -- of

11 Opravdici, Siljkovici, and Kravica?

12 A. I know that Siljkovici were at the edge along the forest, but not

13 in Opravdici and Zonjici. So in Siljkovici, probably yes.

14 Q. Do you know what that consisted of, what sort of guard system they

15 had in Siljkovici?

16 A. That was the village guard.

17 Q. Yes, okay. But you told the Trial Chamber -- you told -- explain

18 to the Judges what -- what that actually means. What is the village

19 guard? What did you know about it? What did you see?

20 A. I heard about the village guards from people. They were guarding

21 the village. They were elderly men for the most part trying to prevent

22 groups of unknown persons turning up. Because had that happened, the

23 women and children would have been in danger.

24 Q. And what about Kravica? Are you aware of there being any village

25 guard system in Kravica?

1 A. I'm not aware of any such system in Kravica. But that's what I

2 think. I didn't see anything like that but I wouldn't be able to tell

3 you, really.

4 Q. All right. Thank you. Let's just return briefly to your work in

5 1992. Were you issued with a gun for the purposes of carrying out your

6 duties as a watchman, a pistol?

7 A. Yes. In the company I worked for, yes, a pistol.

8 Q. At the close of your shift, would you return it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When was the last date that you worked at in your company, the

11 21st of May company?

12 A. I worked there until early May I think. Then I was due to have an

13 operation. I have documents to show this. And after that, I was on sick

14 leave.

15 Q. And did you indeed bring along a document to The Hague and show it

16 to me in -- last week concerning that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Please look at this document I produce to you. Is this the

19 document you showed me dealing with your sickness or illness from 1992?

20 Have a look at the document. You can look at it. Turn it around and look

21 at the document.

22 You have the B/C/S version in front of you. Is that the

23 document -- is that a copy of the document you showed me?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. It says you had a hernia. Is that correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, who gave you that piece of paper with that writing on it?

3 A. The doctor in Mali Zvornik gave it to me.

4 Q. Is that the doctor or the nurse?

5 A. The doctor.

6 Q. And it says you weren't competent for military service until the

7 end of your treatment. Why did the doctor write that, do you know?

8 A. Because I had hernia and I couldn't use my right leg. I had to

9 have surgery.

10 Q. And did you in fact have surgery in 1992 or not?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you continue to suffer from your complaint in 1992 or was it

13 cured?

14 A. No. I suffered from my complaint, yes. I was not cured. I was

15 still sick.

16 Q. Okay. Thank you.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I seek to tender the

18 medical certificate into evidence.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Shall I follow the same sequence as before?

20 Registrar, please, 454.

21 So this document is being tendered, received, and marked as

22 Prosecution Exhibit P454.

23 MR. DI FAZIO:

24 Q. In 1992 and early 1993, were you a member of VRS or the JNA or any

25 TO, Territorial Defence, organisation in your area?

1 A. No.

2 Q. As far as you're aware, were you conscripted in 1992 or very early

3 1993?

4 A. I don't understand your question.

5 Q. Were you conscripted? Did the army send you a notice or a piece

6 of paper or tell you that you had to go and fight for them, work with

7 them?

8 A. No.

9 Q. I want you to turn your attention to the 7th of January, 1993. On

10 that occasion, were you at home in Zonjici?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was your son Zoran also at home?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Had your son suffered any sort of injury some time before the 7th

15 of January?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Had he been hospitalised?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Where?

20 A. In Loznica.

21 Q. And on this day, the 7th of January, 1993, had he been recently

22 released from hospital or had he been out of hospital for some time?

23 A. He hadn't been released, but he was allowed to go home for

24 Christmas.

25 Q. Is that the Serb Orthodox Christmas?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was your wife at home on the morning of the 7th of January, 1993?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was it snowing?

5 A. It had been snowing before. I know there was about 10 centimetres

6 of snow on the ground. I don't know if it was actually snowing that

7 morning.

8 Q. Did anything happen on that morning?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What happened?

11 A. We were asleep in the room. Marija went outside and started

12 shouting, "Ratko, get up, there's an attack." I said, "What sort of an

13 attack? It's 5.30." You could hear shooting from Siljkovici. I got up.

14 We're on a little hill, as I was trying to explain, so the bullets were

15 whizzing by. We could see fires starting, but we couldn't see while it

16 was still dark. When it started growing light you could see troops going

17 from Srebrenica and Siljkovici toward Kravica burning whatever they could

18 get their hands on. My wife suggested we should flee from the house. We

19 would get killed. My son had been injured, he'd been in Loznica, so we

20 went in the direction of Popovici and the River Drina to get closer to

21 Serbia. I was hit by a bullet in the left leg. I still have the

22 consequences of that. I went with them as far as Popovici, and then I

23 couldn't go on. My son -- my son's left leg was injured. My wife was

24 weeping. I decided to go back. They couldn't carry me, so how could I go

25 on? I decided to go back and be killed in my own home.

1 Q. Okay. Okay. I just want to take you back to some of the events

2 you saw before you fled and were shot. Could you see eventually

3 Siljkovici? I'm now talking about the period of time after the attack

4 started. Could you actually see it with your eyes?

5 A. Yes, you could see Siljkovici burning. You could see the flames.

6 Q. Okay. Now, is this flames from houses in Siljkovici?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber, thinking back, how much of Siljkovici was

9 burning when you saw it, when you looked at it?

10 A. Siljkovici is on a hill, so you could see it. You could see

11 flames. It wasn't light yet but you could see the flames in the dark;

12 they were red. You could see the flames rising up.

13 Q. What I want you to do is tell the Trial Chamber if you could see

14 the flames rising up from one house or more than one house or -- and try

15 and give the Trial Chamber an idea of how much of Siljkovici was burning,

16 whether it was just a small part or half of it or all of it so the Judges

17 understand how much of the town was on fire, the hamlet of Siljkovici.

18 A. You could see many flames and lots of smoke. I couldn't judge

19 whether all of Siljkovici was burning, but you could see a lot of fires

20 and a lot of smoke.

21 Q. At the same time you could see fires and burning and smoke, could

22 you hear the sound of gunfire?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you see soldiers moving --

25 MR. JONES: We have the problem again. The witness referred to

1 "troops," I'm not sure what that was in the original

2 Bosnian-Hercegovinian.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: He just wants to complicate matters more, Mr. Jones.

4 That's all.

5 MR. JONES: If the witness could just describe who he saw and what

6 they were wearing, that way we'll avoid --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's a better approach, Mr. Di Fazio.

8 MR. DI FAZIO:

9 Q. Could you actually see from where you were --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Jones.

11 MR. DI FAZIO:

12 Q. Could you see from where you were in Zonjici the men that you have

13 described as soldiers. Could you actually --

14 MR. JONES: He didn't refer to men, didn't refer to soldiers. He

15 said "troops." The whole suggestion which I think Your Honour adopted was

16 that he should simply say who he saw and what they were wearing, and not

17 suggest they were men or soldiers or anything of that nature.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: We had -- I don't know, I don't think you were

19 present last Friday when we had this discussion.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: I was.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: You were, okay. So basically what I would suggest

22 is you go back to the witness and refer him to when he mentioned or used

23 the word "troops," and ask him to explain. I'm sure he will explain and

24 then you can use the word that he will use to describe "troops," what he

25 meant by troops and the rest of your testimony or at least as far as it

1 relates to this incident, this part of the event.

2 MR. DI FAZIO:

3 Q. Could you clearly see the people you have referred to as

4 "troops"?

5 A. I saw people coming down. They had weapons. Whether it was an

6 army or not, but they did have weapons and they were setting fire to

7 places.

8 Q. Can you recall what they were wearing?

9 A. I couldn't see what they were wearing, whether it was a --

10 camouflage uniforms were not, I couldn't notice that. I couldn't observe

11 it.

12 Q. Thank you. And could you see men moving around Kravica?

13 A. When they got down from Siljkovici, they went to Kravica. And

14 they had already started burning Kravica.

15 Q. Were you able to see fires and smoke in Kravica?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Were you able to see any men who were armed moving around Kravica?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was that at the same time as you heard gunfire?

20 A. Yes. When they were going down from Siljkovici to Kravica, you

21 could hear them yelling, "Assault," "Go forward."

22 Q. Could you actually hear their voices?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you remember the sort of things they were saying, apart from,

25 "Go forward"?

1 A. I remember well. I heard them saying, "Charge, charge. Catch

2 the Chetniks alive."

3 Q. All right. Okay. Now, I want you to turn your attention back to

4 the point of time where you say that you were fleeing with your wife and

5 son but you were shot and you returned.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber if you were eventually captured.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber the date of your capture.

10 A. The 12th of July, 1993.

11 Q. Let's start again. Tell the Trial Chamber the date of your

12 capture. You said that you -- the attack took place on --

13 A. The 7th.

14 Q. Yes. Okay. And that's the 7th of January?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, when were you captured, how many days after the attack were

17 you captured?

18 A. Five days later.

19 Q. Is that the 12th of January?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What did you do in between the date of the attack and your

22 capture?

23 A. I was hiding around the village. I would go out in the evenings

24 to get warm on the ashes of the houses that had been burned. I hid and

25 that's how I stayed there for five days.

1 Q. You had been shot in your lower leg, in your calf, I believe?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were you able to still walk, get around, with that wound?

4 A. I walked slowly. I bandaged it with some old rags, and I used a

5 stick.

6 Q. What did you eat?

7 A. On the 7th of January, they stole the dried meat from -- the cured

8 meat I had. But I still had some pieces of bacon left. For five days I

9 ate what little food I could scavenge. I would put some potatoes in the

10 fire and bake them, and I had a bit of bacon to eat with those potatoes.

11 And that's what I had to eat for those five days.

12 Q. Now, you said that you were hiding around the village. Which

13 village are you referring to?

14 A. Zonjici.

15 Q. Did you have an opportunity to go down to where your house had

16 been?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What remained?

19 A. Nothing. On Friday fire was set to it. I went out under cover of

20 night, so as not to be seen or I would have been killed. But there was

21 nothing left. I had more than one house there but nothing was left.

22 Q. How many houses did you have on your property?

23 A. Two.

24 Q. Were they both burnt?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Your barns, were they burnt?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What about your neighbours' --

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Let me finish.

6 A. [No interpretation].

7 Q. The houses and barns of your neighbours in Zonjici, were they also

8 destroyed in a similar fashion?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were you hiding during the day?

11 A. I was hiding in a hollow tree. I collected embers from the fires

12 and that's where I hid during the day. In the evening I went to the burnt

13 houses to get warm.

14 Q. During those days prior to your capture, did you see any armed

15 men?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How often?

18 A. I would see them walking around the villages. Whoever had

19 livestock, that was driven away, and they were walking around looking for

20 that.

21 Q. Do you know the ethnicity of the armed men that you saw?

22 A. It's what we used to call Muslims. Now I suppose they're

23 Bosniaks. Everybody had fled after Christmas and those who hadn't fled

24 had been killed.

25 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber why you say the men you saw who were armed

1 were Muslims or Bosniaks. What makes you say that?

2 A. Nobody else came to the village after it was burnt down, only

3 them.

4 Q. Did you ever recognise any of them?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you ever hear them speaking? Did you ever get close enough to

7 them to hear them speaking?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And how were these armed men dressed?

10 A. They were wearing different-coloured clothes.

11 Q. Well, what sort of clothes?

12 A. Normal suits like mine. They were not wearing camouflage

13 uniforms. It was civilian clothes.

14 Q. In addition to these armed men that you've told us were walking

15 around, did you see any other people in company with the armed men?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you see any items being removed from houses?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Who did that?

20 A. It was done by the people who went to the villages to collect

21 things, and they were escorted by soldiers with weapons. I was hiding in

22 a hollow tree and I could see them taking my things away.

23 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you about your property and Zonjici in a

24 moment, but I'm really more interested at this stage in Kravica and

25 Siljkovici and Opravdici. Did you see any personal possessions being

1 taken away in Opravdici, Kravica, and Siljkovici?

2 A. Siljkovici's further off. I was not able to see that. As for the

3 rest I was able to see -- not Opravdici I was able to see as much as in

4 Zonjici. I hid near Zonjici in places where I could not be seen, because

5 if they'd seen me they would have killed me. Therefore I was able to see

6 something.

7 Q. Now, when you -- let me rephrase that. In Opravdici did you see

8 anyone taking possessions away from the houses?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. At the time that people were taking possessions away from the

11 houses in Opravdici, were they in company with armed men?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In Opravdici when the people were taking things away from the

14 houses in company with armed men, what sort of things were they taking

15 away?

16 A. Whatever they could lay their hands on, mostly food and livestock.

17 Q. All right. Now, I'll ask you about your property in particular.

18 You've said earlier in your testimony that you owned livestock including

19 cattle. After the attack what happened to your cattle?

20 A. On the morning of the attack when my wife, my child, and I left,

21 they left towards Popovici and towards the Drina to cross over into Serbia

22 because you could still pass through. The road had not been blocked yet.

23 Once I returned I did not dare go back home directly, so I went back to

24 the woods and hid in a hollow tree trunk. In the evening when I came my

25 house had been burned and my livestock was gone; it had been driven off.

1 You could see the trail leading towards Kravica, the livestock and the

2 cows. I had three pigs about 100 kilogrammes each. They were gone. And

3 when I opened the pigsty the next morning, I found that one of the pigs

4 had been killed.

5 Q. Shot?

6 A. Yes, shot.

7 Q. So you didn't actually see your cattle being taken, you deduce

8 that they were taken because you saw the tracks in the snow. Do I

9 understand you correctly?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Let's go now to your capture. You said that was the

12 12th of January. It was -- what day of the week was that?

13 A. Tuesday.

14 Q. Who captured you?

15 A. When I left the shelter in which I was hiding, a hollow tree

16 trunk, I came to my village, to Zonjici, and I was looking at Kravica.

17 From the direction of Bacici I saw something like a bullet being fired and

18 someone said "Halt." There were seven armed soldiers. I put my arms up

19 in the air and they drove us on to Kravica and then from Kravica to

20 Lolici. From Lolici the van drove over Tursunovic was in the combi and he

21 was escorted by Naser Oric. They took me as far as the Zesta crossroads.

22 From there they walked and I walked with them until past Potocarska Rijeka

23 where we got into a car again.

24 Q. Okay. Thank you. I'm going to ask you about those matters

25 first -- later, but I want some more detail. You say you were captured

1 by seven armed soldiers. Do you know the ethnicity of those armed

2 soldiers?

3 A. Probably they were Bosniak when they captured me and drove me

4 away.

5 Q. Can you -- do you now have any memory of what they were wearing?

6 A. Different kinds of clothes but civilian.

7 Q. All of them armed?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you were captured near Zonjici?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. From there, did you walk to Kravica?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And from Kravica to Lolici, how did you travel?

14 A. We walked. They made me walk.

15 Q. Yes. You walked to Kravica?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. But from Kravica to Lolici, how did you go?

18 A. I walked.

19 Q. I want to ask you now about Kravica. Was this the first time you

20 actually went into the village of Kravica since the 7th of January?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Would you have an opportunity to look around and see what the

23 place looked like?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could you see any damage to the buildings in Kravica?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber the extent of damage and what sort of

3 damage you could see.

4 A. I saw houses burned and buildings. These are things that I saw in

5 passing, but I couldn't see the exact extent. I'd say roughly about 50

6 per cent.

7 Q. Were some of the houses still smoking?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you see people taking things?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What sort of things?

12 A. I was not able to see exactly what people were carrying in their

13 sacks, but they were picking things up, whatever they could find. Some

14 were taking away roof tiles and construction materials, things from

15 houses, that sort of thing.

16 Q. Were there armed men in Kravica?

17 A. No -- I don't know.

18 Q. Thank you. From Kravica you continued your walk to Lolici?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. About how far is that, approximately?

21 A. I think the distance is about 3, 3 and a half kilometres.

22 Q. Were you able to walk -- obviously you were able to walk. Let

23 me --

24 A. I did try to walk as fast as I could. They made me walk fast but

25 I couldn't. They beat me and they slapped me, so I had no choice but to

1 keep on walking.

2 Q. Thank you. What happened when you arrived in Lolici?

3 A. When we arrived in Lolici, when we arrived at the crossroads

4 there, a van came from the direction of Konjevic Polje. In the van there

5 was Tursunovic, Zulfo, 14 of his escorts, and Mr. Naser Oric. He came out

6 and then about 50 or 100 people came over from Lolici and they kept

7 saying, "Let's look at this Chetnik." And Zulfo said, "Don't touch him,

8 he's going to Srebrenica with us." So they put me back in the car.

9 Q. Let's slow down. How big was this van?

10 A. The van was the regular kind. A passenger van. I would say it

11 had up to 20 seats.

12 Q. And were the men who were in it armed?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were they uniformed or in ordinary civilian clothes?

15 A. Three were in white camouflage and the rest were in -- wearing

16 civilian clothes.

17 Q. And you were taken from the -- in the van to where?

18 A. To the Zesta [phoen] crossroads and Lolici. They couldn't cross

19 the hill. We walked until Potocarska Rijeka. I don't know the name of

20 the village, it's past Jaglici and then again we ...

21 Q. Is the Zesta crossroad fairly close to Zesta?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How long did the trip take from Lolici to the Zesta crossroad?

24 A. It did take a while. The vehicle was not very good and I think it

25 took about one hour.

1 Q. And from the Zesta crossroad where did you walk to?

2 A. We used a detour through Zesta to reach Jaglici and then Jaglici

3 and from there on to Potocarska Rijeka.

4 Q. That was walking?

5 A. Walking, yes, across the hill.

6 Q. Where did you leave the van?

7 A. At the Zesta crossroad.

8 Q. How long did the walk from the Zesta crossroad to Potocari take?

9 A. Over two hours, probably. I didn't have a watch on me.

10 Q. And from Potocari to Srebrenica, how did you make your way there?

11 A. We arrived at Potocarska Rijeka. I'm not sure of the name of the

12 that village is. There were two cars there. We got into these two cars

13 and were then taken to Srebrenica.

14 Q. How long did that take?

15 A. Maybe one and a half hours. From Potocarska Rijeka to Srebrenica.

16 Q. Did the men who were -- let me rephrase that. The men who were in

17 the van when you first saw them, did they remain with you to the Zesta

18 crossroad to Potocari and to Srebrenica?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. During that period of time, including the two-hour walk across the

21 hills or thereabouts, did you have an opportunity to look at them, hear

22 them talk, watch them walk, converse amongst themselves, see their faces,

23 see the backs of their heads, that sort of thing?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, you said that two of the men in the van, you've mentioned

1 their names, Zulfo Tursunovic and Naser Oric. What makes you say that one

2 of the men in the van was Zulfo Tursunovic?

3 A. I met Zulfo Tursunovic in Srebrenica because he would come to see

4 us in prison every day and his soldiers called him "Mr. Zulfo."

5 Q. Did you hear that, him being addressed as Mr. Zulfo, in the van,

6 during the walk, or in the cars on the way to Srebrenica? Did you hear?

7 A. I also heard that in Lolici when those other people came to have a

8 look at the Chetnik. He said, "Don't touch him. We'll yet be needing

9 him." And they said, "Thank you very much, Mr. Zulfo." So I took notice

10 of that and I heard it a number of times on the way to Srebrenica.

11 Q. What did Mr. Zulfo look like? Can you describe him to the Trial

12 Chamber?

13 A. Yes. Mr. Zulfo was a tall man, elderly; a green beret; a short,

14 clipped moustache. And he was carrying an automatic rifle.

15 Q. Had you ever seen him or laid eyes on him prior to this day?

16 A. No.

17 Q. The second man you said that you -- was on the bus who you named

18 was Naser Oric. Why do you see that he was on the bus?

19 A. I saw him take his seat behind the driver. He was seated just

20 behind the driver in the van.

21 Q. Yes, maybe you saw him. But why do you say it was Naser Oric?

22 A. I saw as we were travelling the soldiers were getting out of the

23 way saying, "Naser Oric is passing through." Because the road is narrow

24 through the woods and fields and the soldiers were getting out of the way

25 left and right saying, "Let Naser Oric pass."

1 Q. All right. What did he look like?

2 A. Naser Oric had green clothes on and a weapon called Scorpio. It's

3 a large weapon and I saw other people talking among themselves saying,

4 "Oh, it's a Scorpio." So that's the sort of weapon he had, and green

5 clothes.

6 Q. Did he have -- your evidence has been that all of these men

7 including Mr. Oric and Tursunovic walked across to Potocari. Was Mr. Oric

8 armed during that walk?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did he do anything with his gun that you remember?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What was that?

13 A. A pistol.

14 Q. All right. What did he do with the pistol that you remember?

15 A. He just kept this pistol. It was tucked into his belt and then he

16 would spin it around his finger. He didn't use it, that's for sure.

17 Q. I'm not suggested he did. But you remember this spinning action

18 with the pistol?

19 A. Yes. He held it like that on the way down to Drljevo [phoen]. He

20 was spinning it around his finger.

21 Q. Did the man that you say was Naser Oric ever issue any orders or

22 commands that you heard - I'm talking about what you heard now - at any

23 time in the vans or in the walk across the hills to Potocari.

24 A. No.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours just bear with me for a moment,

1 please.

2 Q. The trip from Potocari to Srebrenica, I think you said it required

3 two cars. Do I understand you that the soldiers who had accompanied you

4 across the mountain or the hills got into those two cars with you and then

5 drove together to Srebrenica? Is my understanding correct or not?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Which car were you in or on?

8 A. Those were TAM trucks, rather one was a TAM truck and the other

9 was a van, but that was 11 years ago.

10 Q. Okay. I understand that a lot's happened since then and I'm not

11 asking for every single detail, only what you can recall. First of all,

12 what vehicle did you travel on, the TAM, the TAM truck, or the other van?

13 A. A TAM truck that was open and there were three men on it together

14 with me who had camouflage uniforms on.

15 Q. You've mentioned two of the men who accompanied you as being Zulfo

16 Tursunovic and Naser Oric. Were they in the TAM truck or in the other

17 vehicle?

18 A. They were in the van.

19 Q. Did both vehicles travel together close to each other in convoy to

20 Srebrenica?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Had you been to Srebrenica before?

23 A. Yes, about two or three times.

24 Q. So you -- is it the case that you knew Srebrenica but not that

25 well?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Where were you taken?

3 A. We were taken from Potocarska Rijeka to Srebrenica. In Srebrenica

4 they stopped somewhere and two of those three wearing camouflage uniform

5 grabbed me by the arm and took me to the police station. At the police

6 station there's a duty room, 2 by 2 metres. They left me in that room. I

7 saw Kostadin Popovic and Mica Milovanovic there, and a man named Drago.

8 Q. And was that to remain your cell there for some time?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So you were placed into custody by the armed -- some of the armed

11 men?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who had escorted you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I'm going to move on to the actual prison now, if Your Honours

16 please.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Would that be an appropriate time?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: It's perfect with us. We'll have a 25-minute break

19 starting from now. Thank you.

20 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Di Fazio.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

24 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Nikolic, I want to ask you about your first

25 night in prison. This was in the SUP building in Srebrenica?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was there anyone else in the cell with you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who was that?

5 A. Kostadin Popovic, Mico Milovanovic, and an old man called Drago

6 from Zesta.

7 Q. What constitutes an old man sometimes changes. Now, was he a very

8 old man? In his 60s? Can you give us any idea?

9 A. Over 80, over 80.

10 Q. Okay. And you --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So he was 80 years young.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, Your Honour.

13 Q. Did you know him at the time as Drago or did you later find out

14 that that had been his name?

15 A. I learned that in the morning when he died. The others knew him,

16 Kostadin and Mico because he had arrived five days before.

17 Q. And what about Kostadin Popovic, did he have a nickname?

18 A. Kojo.

19 Q. And the other gentleman Mico Milovanovic, did he have a nickname

20 or was he known as Mico?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you know either Kostadin or Mico from before or was that the

23 first time you met those men?

24 A. I knew Kostadin but not Mico.

25 Q. How old were Kostadin and Mico approximately?

1 A. Kostadin was born in 1947. As for Mico, I don't know, but he was

2 younger. He was between 35 and 40.

3 Q. You spent some time in the cells with Mico and Kostadin. Can you

4 recall at all what they were wearing?

5 A. Kostadin and Mico, I remember well, were wearing civilian clothes.

6 Q. Did they have blood on them when you first laid eyes on them?

7 MR. JONES: I would object to that question. If he could just ask

8 them to the described rather than suggesting that they were already in

9 some --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Objection sustained. Objection sustained .

11 Mr. Di Fazio, please. You know better.

12 MR. DI FAZIO:

13 Q. Describe the appearance of these men, Kostadin, Mico, and Drago.

14 A. When I arrived on the 12th in the evening, on the following day,

15 the 13th, in the morning Drago died. They had blood on their faces. They

16 hadn't watched their faces. But I didn't see the wounds or the bandages

17 because they had arrived in the prison five days before.

18 Q. Was there anything on their clothes? Were their clothes clean or

19 dirty?

20 A. Dirty.

21 Q. With what?

22 A. Blood.

23 Q. So they had blood on their faces, blood on their clothes, and one

24 of them died in the night?

25 MR. JONES: It's unclear to me whether they're all supposed to

1 have blood on them. Mr. Di Fazio is merging them all together. Perhaps

2 we should deal with them one by one. Otherwise the suggestion is that --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think there was one question and if the witness

4 wanted or needed to distinguish between one and the other, he would have

5 distinguished. So I think when he gave the answer that he did he meant

6 both of them.

7 MR. JONES: Or the three.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: The three of them.

9 MR. JONES: But particularly, it's just the way that Mr. Di Fazio

10 put the question, it suggests the person who died died because of

11 something to do with the blood on him and that's a matter which -- which

12 we need to be clear about and not vague.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: But that's a conclusion that will be drawn later on

14 based on the facts, not on what they were wearing, or whether what they

15 were wearing was soiled or not.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll clarify.

17 Q. You described the men in the cells a having blood on their faces

18 and blood on their clothes. Did they apply to all three men?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, Drago was alive when you arrived, but dead in the morning.

21 Is that the scenario?

22 A. Drago was alive when I arrived on the 12th and during the night he

23 died in the 13th, on the 13th.

24 Q. Did-- apart from the blood on his face did he have any apparent

25 wounds that you could see?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What sort of wounds? Where were they located?

3 A. On his face. I couldn't see under his clothes, but on his face.

4 Just as I did. You could see every wound on the face and that's where the

5 blood came from.

6 Q. Were there cuts on his face?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were his eyes swollen?

9 A. No.

10 Q. What happened with his body?

11 A. In the morning two men took Drago out on a stretcher and took him

12 away from me and Mico and Kojo. I don't know where they took him.

13 Q. At this stage had you been beaten? I'm talking about the point of

14 time where -- the point morning when Drago was taken away. Had you yet at

15 that point in time being subjected to any beating?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Where was that?

18 A. In the police station, where we were locked up.

19 Q. What sort of beating had you suffered?

20 A. Through the bars, the bars were far apart and you can see the cuts

21 here. You can still see them on my face. They would push their arms

22 through the bars. It was night so you couldn't see very well, but here

23 you can see all the scars on my face.

24 Q. I'm going to ask you about what happened to you in your time in

25 custody and I'll get to more details later. But just understand this:

1 I'm only talking about when you first arrived, when you first arrived at

2 Srebrenica, that first night when you walked in and saw Drago and Mico and

3 Kojo, now, that first night, were you beaten or not?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right. I want to -- sorry. Let me withdraw that.

6 The following day, what date was that?

7 A. The following day was the 13th. It was Wednesday. I remember

8 very well.

9 Q. Did you remain in your cell throughout that day?

10 A. In the morning when it got light, in the morning of the 13th, a

11 man arrived and he said, "Who arrived last night?" I said I had. He took

12 me out and took me upstairs at the police station. There was a man

13 sitting there and there was a pistol and a knife there on the table. And

14 the man who had brought me in went away and the two of us were in the

15 office. He asked me what a knife was used for and I was very frightened.

16 And I said, "It can be used for anything." And he said to me, "The

17 purpose of this knife is to slaughter, to cut throats." He spoke quite a

18 lot. I didn't dare say anything. He asked what salt was used for. And I

19 said, "Well, to put in food," and, or -- and he would say to me, "It's for

20 killing." And then this other man took me back -- oh, yes, he asked me

21 what I had at home, how much. He asked me about my family members. I

22 said I had a wife and two sons.

23 Q. All right. Thank you.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown P47, please.

25 MR. JONES: Your Honour.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

2 MR. JONES: We have an objection to P47, and it's a fairly -- it's

3 fairly lengthy to set out precisely what we object to, so I don't know

4 whether we should deal with that now before the witness is shown the

5 document or afterwards.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, if he is being shown the document now and you

7 have an objection, I think we need to hear what the objection is about and

8 this must not be done in the presence of the witness.

9 MR. JONES: Indeed, indeed, Your Honour, that's my concern.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So what I suggest is that Madam Usher will escort

11 the witness out, take him to his room and offer him a coffee while we deal

12 with this. How long do you think this matter will require?

13 MR. JONES: Probably only ten minutes, in fact.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, all right.

15 Let's have the witness be escorted out of the courtroom. We'll

16 deal with this matter. Was the Prosecution given advance notice that you

17 would be questioning -- objecting to P47?

18 MR. JONES: We've always objected to this document, as indeed all

19 documents from that source.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

21 [The witness stands down]

22 MR. JONES: I didn't specifically inform the Prosecution that I

23 was going to stand up at this moment and make objections in this format,

24 but we've always objected to it.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones, I give you the floor.

1 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. Well, the objections we have

2 to this document need also be seen in relation to another document which

3 the Prosecution has alerted us they may be intending to use. But I'll

4 start just with this document alone. And firstly, it's a handwritten

5 piece of paper with an illegible signature, an illegible seal, and we say

6 it could have been written at any time by anybody, firstly.

7 Secondly, the source, we say, is questionable. It's the Sokolac

8 collection, it's from the Sokolac collection, and as we have seen to a

9 certain extent with Ms. Manas and as we will see some more when she comes

10 back, we have very strong, reasoned objections to documents from that

11 source.

12 Thirdly, there are a number of highly suspect features about this

13 document. It refers to a high military court, which never existed as far

14 as we know. The handwriting isn't consistent as some bits in capitals,

15 some bits which appear to be in different handwriting. We don't know who

16 signed it.

17 Fourthly, there's at least one sentence which is wrongly

18 translated. In English we have: "He is still evasive, continue the

19 stepped-up treatment."

20 We've looked at that line in Bosnian and tried to decipher and

21 tried translate it and we certainly don't accept that that's a correct --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: What's according to you the correct translation?

23 MR. JONES: In fact, it's very difficult to read a couple of the

24 words. What we could do is put it on the ELMO and see if the interpreters

25 can help us with that.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: We can always put this on the ELMO now. This is the

2 line solitary line that there is just below the date 22/01/1993.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, that's right.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, yeah, I know.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours wish you could look at it on

6 Sanction, I'm told, if that's more convenient for you.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: We can certainly look at it on Sanction, but the

8 important thing is we must zoom in.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: It's computer evidence. That's in English. We want

11 it in the original. That's it. And now it's that line just below --

12 beneath the date 22/01/1993.

13 MR. JONES: I think the interpreters -- okay. I don't know if the

14 interpreters are able to read it, first of all, just in the original.

15 THE INTERPRETER: It's very difficult, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: It's very difficult they tell me.

17 MR. JONES: Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, can we enlarge it further? Can it be enlarged

19 any further?

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Apparently not. I think it will --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I think if we put it on the ELMO, I think it stands

22 a chance of being enlarged better. Let's try. And we can take it -- we

23 can take it, word or in parts. First -- yeah. And we move it to the

24 left.

25 Does it help you any further?

1 THE INTERPRETER: We can try, Your Honour.

2 "He is still" --

3 MR. JONES: [Previous interpretation continues] ... in Bosnian, I

4 think, just so we know what -- if -- if -- could the interpreters read

5 what the words are in Bosnian.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: If the interpreters can read it also in Bosnian

7 first or B/C/S, Serb.

8 THE INTERPRETER: We cannot be absolutely sure, Your Honour, but I

9 think it might be [B/C/S spoken].

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Which would translate into what?

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, we have

12 not heard the interpretation of that.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry. Could I ask the interpreters to repeat

14 the words -- I think you have to switch on to the English, Madam Vidovic.

15 MR. JONES: Yes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

17 Could I kindly ask you to repeat, please.

18 THE INTERPRETER: [B/C/S spoken].

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Which would translate into what in English?

20 THE INTERPRETER: "He is still evading, continue with a

21 strengthened regime."

22 MR. JONES: That's different from the English translation.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm happy with that.

24 MR. JONES: So that's one of the objections, anyway, I don't wish

25 to dwell.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Of course. But certainly as you see how

2 important it is that this is not discussed in the presence of the witness.

3 MR. JONES: Yes, absolutely, Your Honour.

4 Now, as far as this document is concerned, my fifth objection

5 relates to another document which, as I said, the Prosecution intends to,

6 or has told us they intend to use today, and that's with the ERN 02075708.

7 We're going to pass out copies of that document.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

9 MR. JONES: The reason I say it has to be seen in relation to that

10 document is because this document says at the bottom: "Opinion written on

11 the 1st of February, 1993." And then we have another document which

12 appears or purports to be a writing-up of the notes of interrogation.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: This we don't have. I don't think we have this.

14 MR. JONES: Now, if we look at this document, this is one of the

15 documents where we've challenged the authenticity of it and Your Honours

16 will see why. There are two versions of this document which we've

17 received, one with the ERN 02075708, and one with the ERN 02075791. And

18 if Your Honours have both those documents -- do you have them both?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

20 MR. JONES: You'll see that the body of the document is clearly

21 the same -- in fact, you can see the corrections to the word halfway down

22 [B/C/S spoken]. There's a typing correction. There's another one in the

23 next line [B/C/S spoken]. We can see that that's clearly the same

24 document. But then we have, down the bottom, the signature is different,

25 the stamp moved into the middle of the signature.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

2 MR. JONES: The writing at the top of the page, the 7 and the

3 30 -- 01 are different. But that aside, what's much more important is one

4 of the documents simply says in handwritten at the bottom "razminjin"

5 [phoen], exchanged. And that's the one that the Prosecution is planning

6 to use with this witness. But the other copy which was disclosed to us in

7 the C binder of supporting materials says: "Exchanged 7th of February,

8 1993," if you see the English translation of that document.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

10 MR. JONES: That's terribly important to us because the witness's

11 evidence, at least according to his 2000 statement to the investigators,

12 is that he was exchanged on the 26th of February, 1993. So this document

13 saying he was exchanged on the 7th of February, 1993, contradicts his

14 evidence, the evidence we expect he will be giving, therefore exculpatory

15 under Rule 68 material. But aside from that, it shows either that the

16 witness was exchanged much earlier than he says or there is something

17 fraudulent about this document because it contains that false information.

18 And as I said, this document has to be seen in relation to P47 because P47

19 says that the opinion was written on the 1st of February, whereas this

20 document shows the opinion was written on the 30th of January, 1993. So

21 there's yet another inconsistency.

22 And then moving beyond that, this document is purportedly signed

23 by Hamid Salihovic. And we have -- we and the Prosecution have documents,

24 we've been -- disclosed documents by the Prosecution showing that Hamid

25 Salihovic resigned on the 21st of December, 1992, and we have copies of

1 that document to hand up. That has been disclosed by the Prosecution in

2 the F binder. The ERN for that document is 03577310.

3 If I could just draw Your Honours' attention to the fist -- to the

4 date, first of all. Then, "Decision to leave the Srebrenica OS staff due

5 to the thankless position and conditions in which we find ourselves in the

6 overall activities, we the undersigned members of the Srebrenica OS staff

7 hereby submit our resignations from the Srebrenica OS staff."

8 And then one goes to the end, and number one, we see Hamid

9 Salihovic signed that. And then that's then confirmed by a witness who

10 will be testifying against Naser Oric, Dr. Nedret Mujkanovic who in his

11 statement to the ICTY of the 4th of June, 2004, which we also have copies

12 of, confirmed that Mr. Salihovic resigned that and he was never replaced.

13 If the usher could assist with that.

14 So in this statement, Nedret Mujkanovic, dated 4th of June 2004.

15 We have the extracts from paragraphs three, five, and six, and he says:

16 "I've been shown an original document bearing ERN 01839515 to 01839516,"

17 now, that's the resignation letter. And in fact the copy we handed up has

18 been signed by Mr. Mujkanovic. "I can confirm the contents of this

19 document. These persons did submit their resignations. All the reasons

20 mentioned in this document for the resignation of the members of the OS

21 staff Srebrenica are quite genuine."

22 And paragraph 5: "Apart from Abdul Muhic, rest of the members of

23 OS Srebrenica staff like Hamid Salihovic et cetera did resign from their

24 positions. As far as I know their positions were never filled up. These

25 resignations did materialise."

1 Paragraph 6: "Nobody was appointed to replace Hamid Salihovic as

2 the head of security and intelligence."

3 And a bit further down: "Mr. Salihovic went to Potocari and was

4 not active anymore."

5 So we have Mr. Salihovic resigning on the 21st of December, 1992,

6 going to Potocari, not having any further activities, the position is not

7 being filled up. And then this document, which we've already pointed out

8 some speeches signed by Hamid Salihovic on the 30th of January, 1993.

9 So -- so for those reasons, we absolutely don't accept either P47 or this

10 other document, 02075708.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: But then, Mr. Jones, are you suggesting that the

12 signature of Hamid Salihovic as it appears on both documents, that is 5708

13 and 5791 is forged?

14 MR. JONES: Yes, absolutely. Those are the submissions I wish to

15 make, Your Honour, unless I can assist you further.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

17 Mr. Di Fazio.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours -- if Your Honours please, all of the

19 matters raised by Mr. Jones go to the weight that you should attach to

20 this document, each and every matter. The document was initially admitted

21 into -- has been admitted into evidence and I must be in a position to be

22 able to use it and utilise it with witnesses as they come along. The

23 weight that you later give to this document is a matter for you which you

24 will make in the light of can what this witness said about it and

25 everything that Mr. Jones has raised. And later of course we can -- there

1 might be other evidence that touches upon the authenticity or lack of

2 authenticity of this document.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: But that's nothing that should prevent me now from

5 showing to the witness and extracting whatever evidence I can get on it.

6 So in terms of evidence, I simply say, well, whatever -- all Mr. Jones has

7 said simply doesn't mean I can't show it to him.

8 As far as there being two copies is concerned, I think that the

9 Defence was quite right to point it out and unfortunately I don't have

10 copies of the second document made. I realise that I should produce both

11 copies to the witness. I've only got copies of one of them -- one of the

12 versions of this document. So if you would permit me, I would like to

13 arrange for copies to be made of that so I can ensure that any -- all of

14 the parties and the Court have the document.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: We have both.

16 MR. JONES: It's P69, actually, the other one. 02075791 is P69.

17 And the other document, 02075708, the Prosecution should have because they

18 planned to use it today.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: That solves -- I'm grateful to Mr. Jones. I should

20 have known that, and that solves the problem.

21 But -- so my submission is: I can show it to the witness and

22 everything raised is a matter of authenticity.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime --

24 MR. DI FAZIO: As far as --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, go ahead, Mr. Di Fazio.

1 MR. DI FAZIO: All I really wanted to do with this witness is

2 touch upon matters of esoteric knowledge in this document. There's things

3 in here that only he -- that's the evidence I wanted to extract from him.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. In the meantime let's do things in an

5 orderly manner.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, in the course of your submissions, you

8 made reference to three -- basically four documents. Are you tendering

9 them now? Because I think it's the case of tendering them now and then if

10 need be we'll come back to them at a later stage.

11 MR. JONES: Yes. We'll tender those which aren't exhibits

12 already. So that would go for the extract from the statement of

13 Dr. Nedret Mujkanovic.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go through this carefully. Now, document with

15 ERN number 02075708 will become Defence Exhibit D113.1. 113.1 -- 114?

16 114.1.

17 MR. JONES: Just for the sake of clarity, obviously we're not

18 putting that forward as an authentic document.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no. Obviously you don't even need to say

20 that.

21 MR. JONES: Right.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Document with ERN number 02075791 will become

23 Defence Exhibit D114.2.

24 MR. JONES: That's the one which is already P69.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: But that -- don't worry. I mean, it -- I'm

1 attaching them together so that when later on --

2 MR. JONES: When the submissions are seen together.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: And the English translation which is L0099248, I

4 think, and 249 will be the corresponding translation of D114.2. So one

5 would be A and the other one would be B, I suppose. Which one are we

6 using for the English? E? E. So the English translation would be E,

7 D114.2E.

8 The statement of Nedret Mujkanovic which has ERN number 03577298.

9 298 and 299 will become D115. And the letter of resignation of the

10 individuals amongst who supposedly is Hamid Salihovic with ERN number

11 03577310 to 311 will become D116.

12 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 If I might just briefly in reply to my learned friend say that

14 obviously there are -- these are matters which go to the weight of the

15 document, but to show it to the witness and have him possibly confirm

16 personal details is -- firstly, would wrongly, possibly, create the

17 impression that the document has a value which it doesn't have. And

18 secondly would be pointless because those details can be elicited from the

19 witness simply by asking him who his wife is, who his parents are, who his

20 children are, and any of the other details which the Prosecution might

21 wish to submit or confirm by the document.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you intend to show him the document --

23 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm happy to adopt the second course of action.

24 But in order for -- if I do that, I would ask that the Trial Chamber look

25 at the document while that particular portion of evidence is being

1 elicited so you can evaluate it. I'm happy not to show -- the point that

2 Mr. Jones makes is --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay. I think we can go along with it.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Deal with it --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes, certainly. Certainly

6 So are we ready with this argument?

7 MR. JONES: Yes, I'm obliged, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So I think we will need to take -- give a ruling.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So our ruling is -- along the line of consistency

11 with what we said in the beginning of this trial that matters of

12 authenticity and probative value and weight that will be given to the

13 document is an exercise that will be carried out in the end, having heard

14 all the evidence. We might even have Mr. Hamid Salihovic come here and

15 say, "No, that's not forged. That's my signature." Or come here and say,

16 "That's not my signature."

17 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I just wonder while I'm on my feet. We

18 have an objection to another document which might subsequently be used.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's decide this. The document will be made use

20 of. Of course, we've taken note of all your objections, and at the end we

21 will decide what weight to give this document, if at all. Because, I

22 mean, we might agree completely with you that -- and give your client the

23 benefit of the doubt. Yeah.

24 MR. JONES: Thank you, I'm obliged, Your Honour. I just mention

25 it now that there is another document which we will be contesting if the

1 Prosecution seeks to use it. I don't know if while the witness is out of

2 the room it's worth referring to that or --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: If you think or you have an indication that this

4 document is going to be used today, yes, go ahead.

5 MR. JONES: Yes, it would seem a more sufficient course. Well,

6 there's a hospital discharge certificate, which I understand the

7 Prosecution sin tending to use with this witness. If Your Honours will

8 give me one moment just to have that in front of me.

9 And actually if the usher could pass up copies, please. And the

10 English translation bears the ERN 00366743. And if one sees the second

11 page of that document at the bottom signed with the name -- Ljubisav

12 Gavric is the bottom. But it says: "N.b., officially authorised by the

13 undersigned. The discharge certificate could not be reproduced."

14 And on the front page it says it is a copy. In fact, as we

15 understand it, this is a re-typing of a document. It's not actually the

16 original. It's not even the copy of an original. It's as if I were to

17 take a document being tendered in this case, take it home with me, type it

18 up, and come back with that document, and put that as -- forward as

19 evidence. We say it's unreliable. It fails the best evidence rule if one

20 wants to use that term which is used in Your Honours' order on -- order

21 concerning guidelines on evidence in the conduct of parties during trial

22 proceedings. We say that, you know, a copy is one thing but a document

23 that has been re-typed and where it's clear from the face of the document

24 that it's not -- it's not the actual certificate. The discharge

25 certificate could not be reproduced.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's ask for some help here from the interpreters.

2 What's the correct translation of "prepis" [phoen]?

3 THE INTERPRETER: Copy.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: And what do the boards [B/C/S spoken] mean?

5 THE INTERPRETER: Letter of discharge from the hospital.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the meaning of [B/C/S spoken]?

7 THE INTERPRETER: Letter of discharge again.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So, but the two mean the same thing, but they are

9 not the same, no?

10 MR. JONES: These are both copies.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but every one -- every document is a copy. In

12 other words, basically what --

13 MR. JONES: This I understand is really the words at the end:

14 "The discharge certificate could not be reproduced. "

15 I understand that to mean this isn't even a photocopy of the

16 discharge certificate. If it could be produced it could be photocopied.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know what to tell you, Mr. Jones, but

18 again --

19 MR. JONES: Also the date --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I -- there are, I suppose, a hundred and one reasons

21 which you can think of to complain against this document, whether it's the

22 first format, and I would join you there because most of it you can't even

23 read, at least the photocopy that we have. And I agree with you that

24 where you have copy, it's -- basically it's not a copy. But the first one

25 is also a copy. And the words sometimes are not exactly the same.

1 MR. JONES: Because the original -- if this were a photocopy of an

2 original document it wouldn't have the words "copy" actually typed on it

3 and it wouldn't have the "n.b." typed on the end. So this is where it's

4 fundamentally different from a photocopy.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: But is there any indication -- because that -- this

6 is forged or this is false? Because let's take the first one.

7 MR. JONES: It's really this, Your Honour, it says: "Hospital

8 discharge certificate."

9 And then at the end it says, "the discharge certificate could not

10 be reproduced."

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but, again, in the first of these two

12 documents just before -- on top of the signature, the words that I can see

13 there are not the same as the words in the nota bene part of the second

14 document where you see [B/C/S spoken].

15 If you read the previous document, it doesn't say that. It says:

16 [B/C/S spoken]. So --

17 MR. JONES: As far as that's concerned, Your Honour, it may be

18 that this is a retranslation back into Bosnian -- or B/C/S.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. I don't know what to tell you,

20 Mr. Jones, but I wouldn't waste time on this. I mean, it's --

21 MR. JONES: You have my submissions, Your Honour. There is one

22 other matter which is this document refers to the witness being

23 hospitalised from the 1st of March, 1993. We understand his evidence will

24 be that he was hospitalised from the 26th of February, so -- and our

25 indication that there's something, we say, fishy about this document. But

1 my submissions are on the record and we can leave it at that.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, I think we are not tendering this

3 document for the time being. We are just leaving it here. If it's made

4 use of, I think we have taken note of your submissions.

5 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. It was really to get them on

6 record --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, I agree, and appreciate the attention you

8 are giving to the documents because that is very much helpful.

9 Yes, Mr. Di Fazio. I don't think you need to answer. So I think

10 we'll --

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 Let's bring in the witness and continue, please.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: I might just tell you that I'll elicit evidence

14 from this witness about what happened to him post his exchange. If I'm

15 satisfied with that, I won't even use it.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Now, can I ask now that Your Honours have the

18 documents that we were talking about.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: P47.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: P47 And I think now that you can have D114.1 and .2

21 so you have both of them.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, they are here.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 MR. DI FAZIO:

25 Q. Mr. Nikolic, I want to ask you some questions about the 13th of

1 January. You said that you had an encounter with a man and you described

2 the knife and the salt. And you also said in evidence that you provided a

3 number of personal details to him. I just want to ask you some -- forget

4 about that encounter. I just want to ask you some personal details.

5 What's your wife's maiden name?

6 A. Marija.

7 Q. That's her first name. Her maiden name, her surname before he

8 married you?

9 A. Zivanovic.

10 Q. Where is she from?

11 A. Bratinski [phoen].

12 Q. Have you ever been to a place called Gornji Mratinci?

13 A. No.

14 Q. What year was your son Goran born?

15 A. 1968.

16 Q. In 1992 or -- and early --

17 A. 1968.

18 Q. Yes. In 1992 where was your son working, Goran I mean?

19 A. He worked for Elektroserbija [phoen] in Belgrade. He was an

20 electrical engineer.

21 Q. In what year was your son Zoran born?

22 A. In 1972.

23 Q. Earlier today you testified that he had been in hospital.

24 Where -- did he have an injury?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. What part of his body was injured?

2 A. His leg.

3 Q. Did you go to elementary school?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: You missed the location of the hospital, Mr. ...

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, I'm sorry. Yes.

6 Q. You also said earlier today that your son had been in hospital.

7 Where was the hospital that he had been in? I'm talking about Zoran.

8 A. In Serbia, Loznica.

9 Q. Did you complete elementary school or do some grades at elementary

10 school?

11 A. Elementary.

12 Q. Yes. How many grades --

13 A. Four.

14 Q. Where did you do your military -- did you do military service?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where did you do your military service?

17 A. In Milana [phoen], eleven months and six in Skopje.

18 Q. When?

19 A. Between 1964 and 1967, the 13th of September, 1964, I left [as

20 interpreted]. And in 1967, I left the military. I had served for 17

21 months.

22 Q. Okay. Did you do -- did you acquire any specialities when you

23 were performing your military service?

24 A. Signals, yes.

25 Q. You mentioned earlier today that you had troubles with a hernia in

1 1992. Did you have any other health problems in 1992?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What sort of problems?

4 A. My heart wasn't really working properly.

5 Q. Did you own television sets in 1992?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you remember how many TVs you had in 1992?

8 A. Three.

9 Q. Did you have wheat stored at your farm?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you have sheep, cattle, pigs, chickens?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know a man named Miso Eric?

14 A. Heard of, but I don't know him.

15 Q. Do you know his wife's name?

16 A. He had died.

17 Q. Do you know his wife's name?

18 A. I must have heard it but I can't remember it properly. I don't

19 know.

20 Q. Thank you. Apart from the salt and the knife being present during

21 the interview on the 13th of January, were you asked a lot -- a number of

22 personal questions by your interrogator, whoever it was?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Just answer me yes or no: In the weeks that followed the 13th of

25 January, were you beaten?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was that frequently or -- can you give the Trial Chamber any idea

3 of how often?

4 A. Whenever those people came to look at the Chetniks they beat us,

5 but there were two of them who came regularly to beat us two or three

6 times. They wore black caps or balaclavas with slits for the eyes. And

7 those were the two persons who beat us the most.

8 Q. Can you recall any other occasion similar to the one that you've

9 described on the 13th of January when you were asked questions by anyone,

10 another interrogation of sorts? Did that ever happen again if you can

11 recall? If you can't recall, that's fine. But if you can, tell us.

12 A. No.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 Now I want to ask you about the beatings and in order to fix

15 things in your mind about the time period I'm asking you about, firstly

16 I'll ask you this: Was there ever an occasion in January when more people

17 were brought into or brought into custody?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When was that?

20 A. I can't remember specifically what the date was, the 15th or the

21 16th when Skelani was attacked and four other men were brought in.

22 Q. Okay. I'll ask you about that later. So now I'm going to ask you

23 questions about the period of time between the 12th when you were captured

24 and the 16th when these people from Skelani came. Now, in that time, as I

25 understand your evidence, you were in custody with Kojo and with Mico. Is

1 that so?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, during that period of time were you beaten?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you see the other two then in your cell, Mico and Kojo,

6 beaten?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you recall who it was that beat you and the other men?

9 A. No.

10 Q. How often were you beaten?

11 A. I don't know why they beat us, but they kept coming all the time.

12 Probably on someone's orders or maybe of their own free will. I really

13 don't know the reason.

14 Q. But me question is really this: How often did it happen? Was it

15 every day? Every second or third day? Can you give the Trial Chamber an

16 idea of the frequency. And remember, I'm just talking about that first

17 period of time when you were in custody, that -- the period of time

18 between your capture and the people from Skelani --

19 A. Daily.

20 Q. And was it the case that only --

21 A. They beat us on a daily basis, day and night.

22 Q. You and the other two men in the cell?

23 A. Everyone.

24 Q. Were instruments used?

25 A. Well, probably because when they got through the bars you realised

1 later it was a prison a room inside the police station, it was only 2 by

2 2, so if you put a stick through the bars you could beat someone who was

3 inside the room and I still have scars by being struck by those sticks.

4 Q. Did your assailants ever open the cell doors and come in and beat

5 you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Are you all right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. Were you ever kicked?

10 A. Yes, and we were no longer able to stand up. So we sat next to

11 the wall and that's when they kicked us. We had been starved and we were

12 already worn out by the beatings.

13 Q. All right. You've mentioned the name of Mr. Zulfo Tursunovic. In

14 the initial part of your incarceration - again I'm talking about the

15 period of time between your capture and the arrival of the men -- of the

16 other prisoners from Skelani around mid-January - during that period, that

17 short period of time, did you ever see him?

18 A. Yes, he came to the prison.

19 Q. Can you recall -- sorry. Did you actually see him, see him for

20 yourself?

21 A. No. I saw him inside the cell but not outside.

22 Q. Okay. Well, you've actually laid eyes on him?

23 A. No. In the cell, yes, we were able to see him but not outside.

24 Q. Okay. All right. What did he say, if anything?

25 A. Nothing. He would come. He saw us covered in blood. He would

1 always ask, "What's happened to you?" We were not able to say anything

2 who beat us. We just shrugged our shoulders and kept silent. We knew as

3 soon as he left the same men were there to beat us, therefore we just kept

4 silent.

5 Q. When the men were being beaten, and yourself included, were they

6 screaming?

7 A. Yes. Milosava Nikolic, the women who were there, 14 women and

8 four children in the adjacent room, they could hear us scream and moan but

9 it was just no use that they did. It was no help. There were women there

10 who were also detained who could hear us cry out.

11 Q. Okay. Now, let's be clear about this for the Trial Chamber, now.

12 Now, we're talking about the SUP building here, the SUP building, were

13 there women incarcerated in the SUP building? Think carefully about the

14 question.

15 A. No. No, there weren't.

16 Q. Were there -- were you later moved from the SUP building and taken

17 elsewhere?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Where was that?

20 A. When they took us from the police station, they took us to the

21 centre between the court and the municipality. There's a passage on the

22 upper side and there is a cell there, a prison.

23 Q. And is that where the women were imprisoned?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So now, I'll take you back to the SUP building. That's where

1 I'm -- what I'm asking you about.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please speak into the

3 microphone.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm terribly sorry. I apologise.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the second time, Mr. Di Fazio. The third time

6 we will fall down very heavily on you.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I apologise. I'll raise my voice as well.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: This is Monday, don't worry. You don't need to

9 worry. It's the -- Monday at noon, that's what you hear. So it's a

10 rehearsal.

11 MR. DI FAZIO:

12 Q. I'll ask you now of the arrival of the prisoners from Skelani.

13 You say that they arrived around the 15th or the 16th of January, 1993.

14 Is that when you were transferred?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were all three of the men who were in the SUP building transferred

17 to this other location that you've already told us about?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And were you placed in a cell or room at this building near the

20 municipal building in company with other male prisoners?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, I want to ask you about who was in custody -- I want to ask

23 you about who was in custody in this second prison that you've told us

24 about. Was Kojo there or Kostadin Popovic?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Was Mico Milanovic there?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Who else?

4 A. Mico Milovanovic, Kostadin, Ilija, from Skelani.

5 Q. Thank you. You did what I wanted you to do. As you're going

6 through the names tell us where they're from, if you recall. Okay? So,

7 you've told us Kostadin. You've told us Ilija from Skelani. Continue.

8 A. Jakov Kalabaca from Siljkovici; Dragan Kasaba, Vlasenica; Mico

9 Milovanovic, Sase; Srebrenica. There was some elderly people, Mico from

10 Kasaba. Jakov Kalabaca from Vlasenica; and there were some elderly men

11 from Skelani. There were over 80 and I don't know their names. [As

12 interpreted]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Di Fazio, I need to suspend the sitting for just

14 two minutes. We'll be back in two minutes.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Certainly, Your Honours.

16 --- Break taken at 12.04 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 12.07 p.m.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. My apologies to Mr. Di Fazio for interrupting

19 you like this, but --

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: -- let's proceed.

22 MR. DI FAZIO:

23 Q. In the period of time in which you were incarcerated did you ever

24 meet a woman named Andza?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Was she incarcerated?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. Now, all of these names you've mentioned, did they all

4 arrive at the same time from Skelani or did they -- did some of them

5 arrive from Skelani and others arrive later from elsewhere?

6 A. They didn't all arrive at the same time. Some were in Pobudje

7 three of them, in Dandje [phoen]. They arrived in Srebrenica in early

8 February.

9 Q. Which ones were the ones that came in early February?

10 A. Jakov, Mico, Dragan, and Andza. Andza was in the women's prison

11 and those three were with us.

12 Q. Thank you. So Jakov from Kalabaca, Dragan from Kosarava [phoen],

13 and Mico from Kasaba?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And is that a different Mico from Mico Milovanovic?

16 A. There were two men called Mico. These were just their nicknames.

17 I didn't know their full names.

18 Q. Okay, I understand. All right. Now though -- they -- they

19 arrived in February, but now turn your mind back to mid-January and tell

20 us which ones arrived from Skelani. We're not talking about Andza, Jakov,

21 Dragan, or Mico, but which ones came in from Skelani?

22 A. Ilija and the man who died with Kostadin. I didn't know his name.

23 And two who were exchanged when the women were exchanged on the 6th of

24 February.

25 Q. The man who died with Kostadin, was he -- what age was he

1 approximately?

2 A. He was over 65, approximately.

3 Q. Have you ever heard of a hamlet called Rasica Gaj?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you know where the old man who was over 65 with -- who died, do

6 you know where he was from?

7 A. He came from Skelani, but what the name of the hamlet was I can't

8 tell you.

9 Q. Was there any male prisoner in the cells with you who was

10 handicapped?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Who was that?

13 A. From Kalabaca.

14 Q. Can you remember?

15 A. No, not Kalabaca, Rogaci.

16 Q. And can you remember his name?

17 A. Branko.

18 Q. Can you remember the surname?

19 A. I used to know it but now it escapes me. Sekulic, Branko.

20 Sekulic.

21 Q. Okay, thank you. And what was his handicap?

22 A. He was wounded somewhere on Rogaci through the leg he couldn't get

23 up or walk about. He was down there in the hospital and then one evening

24 they brought him to us in the prison and he also had a bad arm. He didn't

25 have any fingers.

1 Q. Thank you. And the lack of fingers, did you understand that to be

2 from some sort of industrial accident before the war?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. Was there anyone in custody with you who was

5 paralyzed?

6 A. Yes, Stanoje.

7 Q. Where did Stanoje come from? Was he one of the men who came in

8 from Skelani or was he brought in at some later point?

9 A. He was brought in with the other three from Skelani who were born

10 in Skelani.

11 Q. Thank you. Were you ever provided with any information as to

12 where Andza; Jakov from Kalabaca; Dragan from Kasaba; and Mico from Kasaba

13 had been prior to their being taken to Srebrenica?

14 A. No. They told us when they arrived from Srebrenica where they had

15 been in prison and how long in Pobudje. For seven months they were locked

16 up in a stable there. And then in early February, I don't know the date,

17 they were brought to Srebrenica.

18 Q. Okay. Thank you. You were eventually -- I don't think this is in

19 dispute. You were eventually exchanged on the 27th of February or

20 thereabouts. Is that so?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Prior to that were a number of women exchanged?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you recall approximately when the women were exchanged?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. When was that?

2 A. On the 6th of February, Saturday.

3 Q. Did any of the male prisoners who were being held with you

4 exchanged at the same time?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who was that?

7 A. Stanoje and an elderly man whose name I don't know, but I've

8 mentioned him.

9 Q. All right. I want to ask you now about the period of time from

10 when you first arrived in this second prison behind the municipality and

11 the exchange of the women on about the 6th of February. Okay. So that

12 period of time from about mid-January to the exchange. Are you clear

13 about that? That's what I'm going to ask you about.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. During that period of time were you beaten?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you see other men in the cell with you also beaten?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You've described the use of instruments --

20 MR. JONES: Sorry. I wasn't clear where or when that happened. I

21 would be grateful if for this part of the witness's testimony Mr. Di Fazio

22 could abstain from leading as much as possible.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: I withdraw that question.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he mentioned the use of sticks before.

25 MR. JONES: In the SUP building.

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, that's right.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: But the question is perfectly legitimate if I read

3 you well.

4 You've mentioned the use of sticks when you were in the SUP

5 building. Now that you've been transferred to another place, the prison,

6 were sticks used as well or was it different?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Was any other instrument used apart from sticks?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whatever they had. If they were

10 carrying a rifle, they would hit us with the rifle butt and they would hit

11 us all over, anywhere, in the stomach. I was beaten all the time. They

12 punched me with their fists. I still have a loose tooth. When Kostadin

13 Popovic died on the 6th in the night he was beaten three times and this

14 other man, when he was exhumed you can see that his head was smashed up.

15 They beat him three times on that night.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

17 MR. DI FAZIO:

18 Q. I'm going to ask you about the night of the 6th in a bit more

19 detail but I'm just you more general questions now in the period of time

20 between mid-January up until that very night. Okay?

21 Now, in that period of time did you have blood on you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did the other men have blood on them and on their clothing?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber of the frequency of beatings between

1 mid-January and the 6th of February. How often did it happen?

2 A. Every day. You couldn't count the number of times. Whenever

3 anyone came by. They beat us on a regular basis, two, three. I can't

4 remember everything that happened 10 or 11 years later, but I remember a

5 lot because my head was injured. I get lost sometimes. I was beaten

6 every day.

7 Q. Were you ever cut?

8 A. Yes, here. I can't recall the date when the guard opened the door

9 of our cell and a man came in. He had a big beard. His sleeves were

10 rolled up. He grabbed me and he put his knife here. And the ones who

11 were standing guard in front of the door, they said, "Don't cut his

12 throat, we will be punished by Mr. Naser." But you can still see the scar

13 here on my throat. He cut me here and here. He stuck his knife in here.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: For the purposes of the record, if Your Honours

15 please, the witness indicates just under his jawbone on his right-hand

16 side.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.

18 MR. DI FAZIO:

19 Q. That period of time that we're talking about up to the 6th

20 February, did you see Mr. Zulfo Tursunovic at this new location, the place

21 near the municipality building?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you remember how often he came?

24 A. Zulfo came nearly every day. We got to know him in those 46

25 days. Hardly a day wouldn't go by that he didn't come.

1 Q. Would you tell the Trial Chamber what he did when he visited.

2 A. When he arrived on one occasion on the 6th in the evening, three

3 times they beat him and I asked Mr. Zulfo several times, "Why don't you

4 kill us and stop torturing us?" And he replied, "Mr. Naser will decide

5 about that and our government." And on the 6th in the evening, on the 7th

6 of Sunday I remember well we asked what day it was and he passed through

7 our cell, our room. And when he saw Kostadin Popovic dead and stiff and

8 this elderly man who was over 65 from Skelani, from Rasica Gaj, he said,

9 "It's easy to beat you here in the room. They should go to the forest

10 and catch the fighters. You're no kind of fighters," but then two men

11 arrived with a stretcher.

12 Q. We'll get to the beating on the 6th in just a while. In the

13 period of time that you were in prison, did you ever -- were you ever let

14 out of prison to conduct jobs or chores?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you ever go into the women's prison, the women's cells?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And what was the reason that you found yourself in the women's

19 cell?

20 A. They took us there two by two to the municipality to bring

21 firewood to the women so that they could burn the firewood. On three or

22 four occasions I went to bring them wood.

23 Q. And did you get to see the women in their cell?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you see if there were any children there?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you remember who the kids -- who the children were? I don't

3 necessarily mean their names but can you remember what sex they were and

4 how old they were?

5 A. I couldn't see, but I think they were boys. I don't know. They

6 were wearing trousers and the caps on their heads. I don't know.

7 Q. Can you recall how many children or young, very young, teenagers?

8 A. Four. There was a little Branko from Bjelovac. Both his parents

9 were killed. He was about 7, and the others were a bit younger than

10 Branko. The guards would call out to him. He would come to our cell and

11 they would call him Branko by name. He was about 7. The others were

12 younger.

13 Q. Did the men have wood and heating for their cell?

14 A. No.

15 Q. All right. Now let's turn to the 6th of February. You've told us

16 that on that occasion the women were exchanged plus Stanoje.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You've already said in evidence that you were beaten that day --

19 you've already said in evidence that you were beaten that day. About what

20 time did this beating take place?

21 A. This 6th of February when they exchanged 14 women and four

22 children, during the night, I don't know exactly what time it was, two

23 unknown men entered the cell and they took us to the duty room. I don't

24 know whether the police or somebody else was on duty there for us

25 prisoners. They took us out one by one and beat us and then they brought

1 men back to our cell unconscious. I don't know what time I woke up in the

2 night. They took us to a room and stripped us to the waist.

3 Q. All right. Thank you. That's what I wanted to know. You were

4 stripped to the waist and this was outside of your cell?

5 A. Yes. Yes.

6 Q. Can you recall much of the beating that you suffered?

7 A. I remember all my ribs on this side were broken. I have the

8 letter of discharge when I was exchanged. All my ribs on many side. They

9 kicked me, stamped on me with their feet, I was covered in bruises.

10 Q. Did you eventually lose consciousness?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where were you? In what position did you find yourself when you

13 regained consciousness?

14 A. I was in the cell where we were incarcerated. When it got light,

15 I saw Kostadin Popovic lying next to me, and he was dead.

16 Q. What I want to know is: Tell the Trial Chamber the position in

17 which you found yourself when you regained consciousness. Where were the

18 other men? Where were the other men in the cell? Were they all around

19 the walls of the cell or were they positioned differently?

20 A. Well, we were unconscious. When we woke up we didn't know --

21 there were no lights. We had no watches. When they took us in, they

22 brought a bucket with sand and there was an iron bar, around which there

23 were leather thongs and they used that to see -- they would bring us back

24 to the room and they would then splash cold water on us. Srebrenica was

25 very cold. It was 10 below 0 at night.

1 Q. What was this device that you've mentioned, the iron bar with the

2 leather thongs? Is that an instrument of attack or is that some sort of

3 lighting device? I'm just not clear about that.

4 A. It was used for lighting because there was no electricity so they

5 used that to bring light in so that they could see to beat us.

6 Q. Anyway, you regained consciousness, as I understand your evidence,

7 in your cell?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When day came, were you able to see around -- inside the cell?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Were you able to see Kostadin and the old man?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What did Kostadin and the old man look like?

14 A. Well, Kostadin was all covered in blood, and the old man -- I

15 don't know. I didn't come close but perhaps I can show the Chamber so

16 they can see. There's a photograph when his body was dug up his jaw was

17 still black and blue and his teeth had been knocked out. I have

18 Kostadin's picture to show.

19 MR. JONES: Yes, we do -- I didn't realise the photograph was

20 about to be produced. We would object to that because, firstly, we have

21 no idea when the photograph was taken, no details of the exhumation, and

22 how this witness would even know that that is Mr. Popovic. I believe

23 there's witnesses who will deal with this.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: I see the witness is thumbing through his well-used

25 book that he's transported all the way here in which he's tried show me.

1 I'm not going to need evidence of this.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Di Fazio. I think we'll have a

3 break now of 25 minutes. More or less minus the time we consumed in the

4 beginning and earlier on, you've been already about two and a half hours

5 with this witness, just under two and a half hours. How much more time do

6 you require?

7 MR. DI FAZIO: I've got to get through this.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: But I'm asking.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Just let me ... Actually not that much more. We

10 can deal with him in about 45 minutes, 40 minutes.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: 45 minutes. Basically it's the next session.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't think there's any doubt about that.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. So more or less, Mr. Jones, it's

14 tomorrow for you.

15 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm obliged, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Which brings us back to what we discussed in the

17 beginning, make sure that we don't get two persons here waiting the entire

18 week until Friday -- until Monday of next week and today week, at least

19 one of them should stay home.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll go through the list this afternoon, as I said,

21 and I'll give you a new list tomorrow.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you. But as I understood from the

23 registrar, two are here and two are coming today.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I don't have the facts at my fingertips. If

25 that's happened, Your Honour, there's nothing I can do about that -- that

1 situation. That's just it. I've heard about what you've said about

2 getting people here too far in advance and I'll see if we can rectify any

3 developing problems like that.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: One or both may stay home probably. Thank you.

5 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, let's proceed and finish with this witness.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Di Fazio.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. If Your Honours please, I -- just on that

11 very topic, when I gave you my assessment I forgot that there was a video

12 that I want to show and some photographs.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I've seen it on my -- not the video but I've seen a

14 reference that you were intending to show the witness a video.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, in fact, there's a couple of videos. They're

16 not long. One is more of a location video, the places in Srebrenica and

17 so on. I'll fast forward for that for most of it. That will either take

18 us right up to the line or possibly cross over. But -- for tomorrow. If

19 I do have to go into tomorrow, it will only be a matter of minutes,

20 literally.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, more or less that you followed the main

22 part of the direct. How much time you think you require?

23 MR. JONES: Roughly two, and a half or three hours.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically, more or less have the other witness in

25 line tomorrow.

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So you'll start with the other witness.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Be waiting.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: You'll have as much time as you require, Mr. Jones.

5 I'm not restricting it.

6 MR. JONES: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

9 Q. Now, Mr. Nikolic, I want to ask you some questions. You've given

10 a description of the beating on the night of the 6th. Did you see

11 Mr. Zulfo Tursunovic following that beating?

12 A. No.

13 Q. What happened to the bodies of Kostadin and the old man?

14 A. In the evening when they were beaten on the 6th, at around 10.00

15 Zulfo Tursunovic arrived and walked through the cell in the prison.

16 Kostadin and this elderly man were dead. He asked what had happened. We

17 were all bloody. We were silent. We didn't answer. He -- later an

18 unknown man arrived with a pencil and piece of paper and he asked if we

19 knew their names and I said, Yes, this is Kostadin Popovic from Kravica.

20 He wrote it down on a piece of paper. And they put it in Kostadin's

21 pocket. When he was exhumed some people were exhuming bodies in

22 Srebrenica and they found these piece of paper in his trousers. It hadn't

23 rotted away because he was wrapped up in nylon.

24 Q. Okay. Thank you. You've told us already that you were exchanged

25 on the 27th of February, 1993. Following this beating on the night of the

1 6th of February, did you continue to be beaten or not?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You've already told us the types of beatings that you suffered.

4 Was there any change in the pattern following the 6th of February?

5 A. No. No.

6 Q. Okay. And were instruments used during those beatings after the

7 6th?

8 A. I don't know. I can't recall everything. But nearly every day we

9 were beaten, sometimes with fists. It's been 11 years now, so I've

10 forgotten some things.

11 Q. All right. You've described Mr. Naser Oric being one of the

12 people who was with you when you -- in your journey following your

13 capture. Did you -- after your capture on the 12th of January, 1993, did

14 the man that you knew as Naser Oric, did you ever see him again?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And you were exchanged on the 27th of February --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- 1993. How did it come about that you were exchanged? Were you

19 consulted?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did it simply happen to you? In other words, were you taken away

22 for exchange?

23 A. A man arrived in our cell. He looked around the room and he said,

24 Two are to be exchanged. Nikolic, come on, and you and Ilija are going to

25 be exchanged. You are on the list for exchange.

1 Q. Was that on the day of the 27th or prior to that day?

2 A. Before that they took us to be exchanged on two occasions and

3 brought us back. This was at intervals of two or three days. And then

4 finally we were exchanged.

5 Q. And where were you exchanged? Where was the point at which you

6 were exchanged?

7 A. It was Dragivote [phoen] above Skelani and Srebrenica, a place up

8 there.

9 Q. Who took you to the exchange point?

10 A. Three from Srebrenica.

11 Q. Men?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Were they armed?

14 A. No.

15 Q. How were they dressed?

16 A. Ordinary clothes, simple clothes.

17 Q. Following your exchange on the 27th, were you hospitalised?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown P45, please. I think this

21 is one of the ones raised by Mr. Jones, one of the documents discussed

22 earlier by Mr. Jones.

23 Q. Put your glasses on, Mr. Nikolic, so you can have a look at the

24 document and read it carefully.

25 MR. JONES: I just want to clarify that we did discuss this

1 document, but it is one which we have objected to [Realtime transcript

2 read in error: "not objected to"]. And I'll say no more at the moment.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

4 MR. DI FAZIO:

5 Q. I just want to run quickly through the written details that you

6 can see about certain people in this document. The man Jakov from

7 Kalabaca, did you ever know his surname?

8 A. We learned it in Srebrenica when he came from Cerska.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Incidentally, in the English text the family

10 name, the surname, is not correct. It's just, for the record. I won't

11 mention it -- mention the surname here because --

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: But it's not correct.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: All right. Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Branko Sekulic, you've mentioned his name as being one of the

16 people in custody. Did he tell you where he was from?

17 A. Branko Sekulic was from Rogaci, that's the municipality of

18 Vlasenica. He was in Cerska, in the barn.

19 Q. Just cast your eye down those names, Sekulic; Dragan Ilic; Ratko

20 Nikolic, we know that's you; and Ilija Ivanovic you've already spoken of.

21 What about the next one? Milisav Milovanovic, who was that person?

22 A. He was known as Mico. His nickname was Mico.

23 Q. Thank you. And are you aware of anyone being in custody with you

24 named Rado Pejic?

25 A. Rado Pejic?

1 Q. If you don't know, that's okay. I'm just asking you, was that --

2 was he one of the people in custody with you or not?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Let me be clear about that. You don't know anyone --

5 A. They were detained -- he was in hospital down there, and maybe he

6 came up for a night, but he was taken back to the hospital. He wasn't

7 with us. I don't know him.

8 Q. Okay. You don't know anyone going by the name Redo Pejic; is that

9 your evidence? I'm not asking if it was the man who was brought up from

10 hospital. I'm asking you a very simple thing. You don't know anyone by

11 the name of Rado Pejic?

12 A. No, no, I don't.

13 Q. All right. Thank you. Next name on the list, Milomir Djokic. Do

14 you know anyone going by the name Milomir Djokic?

15 A. He was a man from Zenica. He was in hospital. That evening he

16 was with us. He was in hospital. He had been wounded near Kravica. He

17 was there for only one night and then he was sent back. He remained in

18 hospital when I was exchanged.

19 Q. Thank you. And of course you've already mentioned Kostadin

20 Popovic. Do you -- did you know of anyone in jail, in custody with you

21 called Bogdan Zivanovic?

22 A. That's the man, probably, who was beaten at the same time as

23 Kostadin in the evening when they were beaten in the evening. At about

24 10.00 they were taken away. So probably that's the name of that man.

25 Q. And finally, did a body called Committee for Mediation and

1 Exchange ever consult with you, speak to you about you being exchanged

2 prior to your exchange?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Thank you. I've finished with that document.

5 MR. JONES: May I just correct the transcript. I said this

6 document, it's at page 80, line 20, that we did object it to it. I said

7 we didn't discuss it before.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no.

9 MR. JONES: I just wanted that on the record.

10 Judge Eser would like to put a question.

11 JUDGE ESER: I have a question to the Prosecution. If I'm

12 correct, the exchange took place on the 26th of February, and the document

13 which you just saw is from the 9th of February. Is there an explanation

14 for this difference of dates?

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if Your Honours -- if Your Honour pleases,

16 I'm pretty sure this witness can't give you an explanation, and as far as

17 I'm aware, the Prosecution can't either at this stage.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I --

19 JUDGE ESER: The background of my question is that people, while

20 on this list of the 9th of February may not necessarily be identical with

21 those who have been in fact exchanged on the 26th of February. Is that

22 correct? As the list of the 9th of February, the names here --

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

24 JUDGE ESER: Must not be necessarily identical with those people

25 who have been exchanged on the 26th February --

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, I see. I follow Your Honour's point. That's

2 right. As I understand the evidence of this witness, he said two people

3 on this list were exchanged with him, he mentioned their names, himself

4 and Ilija Ivanovic. He didn't mention anybody else being exchanged on the

5 27th. I'm not saying this document represents in fact the number of

6 people who were exchanged on that particular day, not on the evidence of

7 this witness.

8 JUDGE ESER: Thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't even -- I suppose we don't even have

10 evidence whether the others were actually exchanged or not.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. There are notations on the side of the

12 document. I don't know what the significance of those are.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know either.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: All right.

17 Q. Now, I want to turn to your -- post-exchange, the events after

18 your exchange. You were taken to hospital. How much did you weigh when

19 you were taken to hospital?

20 A. I think -- well, it's in my letter of discharge. About 70 or 75

21 kilos, or maybe less than 50 kilogrammes.

22 Q. Well, okay -- if you don't know how much you weigh, can you tell

23 the Trial Chamber --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a little bit of a difference between 70 and 75

25 and 50.

1 MR. DI FAZIO: I think there is.

2 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].

3 MR. DI FAZIO: What I'll do is I'll ask -- perhaps if I can deal

4 with it in this way, if Your Honours please.

5 Q. Did you lose weight while you were in prison?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber as best you can -- I don't need exact

8 kilos -- but was it a lot of weight or did you lose just a little weight?

9 What condition were you in?

10 A. I lost over 20 kilogrammes.

11 Q. Okay. How long did you remain in hospital?

12 A. From the 12th of January to the 26th of February. On the 27th I

13 was exchanged, I think.

14 Q. Okay. Now, just think carefully about my question. I'm asking

15 about the period of time after you were released, after you were

16 exchanged. You said that you went to hospital. Now, how long were you in

17 hospital after you were exchanged?

18 A. A little longer than -- well, I think 16 days, and then they sent

19 me home to recover. They told me to stay in bed. You can see the dates

20 of my admittance to hospital and my discharge on the document.

21 Q. Were you treated for broken ribs?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What about the cut that you mentioned on the side of your jaw?

24 Were you treated for that?

25 A. Yes. They cleaned it out -- they cleaned out my teeth, however

1 the cut on my throat had already healed. There was just the scar left but

2 they cleaned out my right jaw.

3 Q. Did you lose teeth?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You keep touching one of your teeth at the front of your mouth.

6 Is that the tooth that's loose that still remains loose to this day?

7 A. From Srebrenica until today. I asked the doctors to take it out

8 but they said, Leave it in.

9 Q. All right. Thank you.

10 Following these events in 1993, were you ever filmed for

11 television or any sort of programme at all involving filming yourself?

12 A. Yes, once. Banja Luka TV.

13 Q. And can you remember approximately when that was?

14 A. I can't remember specifically.

15 Q. Now, when you first arrived at The Hague, did I show you an

16 excerpt from a film in which you appeared?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You had an opportunity to see it. Is that the film that was taken

19 in Banja Luka or is that some other film? Or you don't know?

20 A. No.

21 Q. No, it's not the film in Banja Luka? Or you don't know?

22 A. No. I know that once people from Banja Luka TV came to my home to

23 see me there.

24 Q. I'd like to show you an excerpt from a video and if just you -- I

25 want you to have a look at and tell us if you see yourself depicted.

1 MR. DI FAZIO: And if Your Honours please, firstly before it

2 occurs, just for the purposes of the transcript I need to get the exhibit

3 number of that.

4 Thank you. If Your Honours please, for the purposes of the

5 transcript it's Exhibit P448 that I wish to show to the witness.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. All right.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: I have copies, if Your Honours please, of that

8 transcript that was prepared from last time we discussed this. Do I get

9 to keep one? I'll just get those distributed and then show the film.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm being informed, Mr. Di Fazio, that although it

12 has been premarked, it has not been exhibited, this video clip.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: The transcript --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, not the transcript. It's the video which

15 has been premarked and not yet exhibited. Am I correct?

16 MR. DI FAZIO: That's right. I'm now --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: It has been premarked P448 but it has not yet been

18 tendered in other words.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, yes, yes, I understand. I think that will

20 probably happen through Racine Manas.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: It's something that can be solved very easily.

22 MR. JONES: Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

24 MR. JONES: As far as the transcript is concerned we actually

25 prepared a corrected version of the transcript for this witness because we

1 don't accept that this is actually an accurate translation. It's not a

2 matter which necessarily has to be dealt with now but we'll be dealing

3 with the same extract tomorrow so we have our own version of this

4 transcript.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: I won't have any questions about the substance of

7 this. So ... Thank you.

8 Now, if we could show Mr. Nikolic the excerpt that starts at 15:51

9 and ends at 18:58.

10 Q. And, Mr. Nikolic, can I ask you to look at the screen and tell us

11 if that's yourself?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: It would be good to have some sound. Is there any

14 particular reason why haven't got the sound? It doesn't receive sound?

15 Well, I can deal with this fairly quickly. As I said, I'm not

16 going to ask for any questions regarding the content. If Mr. Jones needs

17 to do that for tomorrow -- intends to do that tomorrow, perhaps if he can

18 let us know and we can make arrangement to ensure that next time it's

19 shown, if it's shown, there is sound accompanying it. But all I need to

20 know -- ask the witness is this:

21 Q. Is that you can see there in the film, Mr. Nikolic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. And did you watch that in my office the other day?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And are you talking there about these events in early 1993 that

1 we've been talking about today?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber if you've got any idea at all when

4 that film was shot. If you can't say, just tell us. If you can tell us,

5 tell us.

6 A. No. I don't know the exact date.

7 Q. What about the -- what I suspect is Cyrillic lettering at the top

8 left-hand corner, do you recognise that? Does that give you any clue or

9 not?

10 A. I don't know what these letters mean, ZB.

11 Q. Okay. Good. All right. Thank you.

12 A. It must be some sort of a TV reference. I don't know.

13 Q. Okay. All right. Thank you very much.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: I've finished with that exhibit.

15 I now want to show the witness a number of photographs, please.

16 They will be photographs that come from Exhibit P419.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Incidentally the English text of the script relating

18 to this video which we were handed do you want to tender that into

19 evidence, Mr. Di Fazio, or not?

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I'm in Your Honours' hands on that. But

21 we've asked for a formal translation to be done and it was used during the

22 course of submissions as well. I wonder if the earlier transcripts when

23 we had submissions on this -- on the whole video you recall last week,

24 whether they were marked for identification on that occasion or not. I

25 don't recall if they were. If they weren't, then, yes, I would ask that

1 this the document be marked for identification at the very least.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, I put the question to Mr. Di Fazio

3 precisely because of what you said earlier. My instinct tells me that it

4 should be admitted into evidence especially if tomorrow you're going to

5 contend that this translation is not correct, because how are we going to

6 make comparisons or some to a conclusion if it isn't?

7 MR. JONES: Yes, indeed, Your Honour, and we will be tendering our

8 version tomorrow.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So this will be P448.1, P448.1.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 MR. DI FAZIO: This is just a draft, of course, this translation.

12 And as I said, we're asking for the official translation to be prepared.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, these photos that you are going to show the

14 witness, again, they have again been premarked but not yet tendered.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: No. They are part of a bundle which is made up of

16 Exhibit P419.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: And they have got numbers on them but no other

19 indication.

20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Because P419 is the larger document, the one which

22 contains them all. In actual fact if you look into your records under

23 P419 what do you find, Mr. Siller?

24 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand they were all -- P419 is part of the

25 one bundle.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: We better be precise on this otherwise it could lead

2 to confusion.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, I got indicated that the Prosecutor

4 would like to tender under P419 number eight, photographs, 18th of July,

5 2004, of the police station.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: It's 18 photographs I believe.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, 18 photographs, but this was only premarked

8 so they are not yet tendered.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, perhaps after the witness has spoken about

10 them I'll move them from being premarked to being fully exhibits.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Go ahead.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

13 Q. All right. First one bearing number 03617694, do you recognise

14 that place?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What is it?

17 A. This is the police station, the cellar door from the other side.

18 Q. Is that the entrance to the SUP?

19 A. Yes -- no. This is the cellar door, the ground floor, from the

20 opposite side.

21 Q. All right. Thank you.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown the next photograph. This

23 one bears all the same numbers as the previous photograph. And for the

24 sake of expediency I'll just --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the post office building in

1 Srebrenica.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: And for the sake of expediency I'll refer to the

3 photos by the last two numbers, as the numbers are identical in every

4 other sense.

5 Q. So 96 shows the post office building.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: He said it already. 98.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, thank you.

8 Can the witness be shown the next number bearing -- ending in 98.

9 Q. Do you know where -- what that photograph shows?

10 A. I think this is part of the entrance outside the old police

11 station.

12 Q. Do you remember any blue walls in the SUP building when you were

13 incarcerated there?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown the next.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nikolic --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

20 Mr. Nikolic, look carefully at that photo that -- I suppose you

21 can give him the photo that you have, usher, please. Look carefully, what

22 do you see in the upper left-hand part of the photo? What's that? Does

23 it look like a radiator, heating radiator?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, a radiator.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, if you look further down but on the right-hand

1 side of the photo, what can you see there?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it's some sort of a toilet,

3 a toilet bell, something like that.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: So do you stand by your explanation given just a few

5 minutes ago that this could be the entrance of the prison or the police

6 station, or would it be the toilet? Because I don't suppose you --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the entrance to the old

8 police station, as the old police station now abandoned things have been

9 taken off because now there is a new police station and the old one is

10 now abandoned.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: But was there a toilet in the entrance of the police

12 station?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is from -- a room of some kind,

14 probably. The bathroom or the lavatory, something like that.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's move, Mr. Di Fazio.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

17 Q. Now, the photograph I'm showing you now is a slightly different

18 number, 03617700. What does that room show?

19 A. In the room you can see a radiator. You can see a door. This is

20 the entrance to the police station, I think.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Next one, please. This one bears the same number

23 as the previous one except that it ends in 02.

24 Q. Now, do you know what this room is?

25 A. I think this is the room in the prison that we were in. At the

1 bottom to the left was used for the detention of those who would be

2 detained for one, two, or three days in prison where we were. The 16th

3 and the 17th of February, Mico, Kojo, and myself.

4 Q. February or January?

5 A. January, my apologies.

6 Q. All right. Now, when you were in custody with Kostadin Popovic

7 and Mico Milanovic, was there a bed or there or not?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And look at the window. You see those bars across the window,

10 horizontal bars, were they there or not?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Next photo, please. This one is numbered

14 03617704.

15 Q. Do you recognise this part of this room? And Mr. Nikolic, if

16 you're not sure about a place or what's being shown to you, don't hesitate

17 to say that. Only tell us if you're sure of a location. But have a look

18 at that and tell us is that a -- do you recognise that room?

19 A. I think this is the old police station, but then again, I can't be

20 sure.

21 Q. Thank you. The next one. This one bears number 03617706. What

22 about this place?

23 A. This is also the SUP building, the old one. I think this building

24 is down there near the ...

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Usher, please, if -- I would prefer even Judge

1 Eser has suggested it to me and I was actually thinking about it, that

2 maybe if the witness is given the photos that you have in your rather than

3 ask him to look at the monitor -- he is? Thank you. He is being given.

4 Because they are much clearer like this.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

6 Q. Have a look at it carefully. Have a look at that photo carefully.

7 Where do you think it was? What do you think it shows?

8 A. I can't remember. It could be the old police station, too.

9 Q. All right. Thank you, that's fine. If you can't remember, you

10 can't remember.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Next one, please. This one bears number 03617708.

12 Can you give us an idea of what this place is.

13 A. This is the prison between the municipality building and the

14 court. That's where we stayed once we had been transferred from the old

15 police station.

16 Q. So this is the second location where you were incarcerated?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Next photo. Again, this one bears number 03617710.

20 Q. Do you recognise that area?

21 A. Yes. This is also the prison where we were held the next time.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Can we just scroll back to the previous photo.

23 Q. Look at the previous photo ending in 08 and look at the next photo

24 ending in 10. I think -- I don't think I'm leading you but I think that

25 that shows the same -- on the right-hand side, you can see the same place

1 that was photographed in the previous photo. You can see the bars on the

2 windows, the horizontal bars. Do you see that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Where was your cell at the second prison? Is it anywhere near

5 that --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. If you stood up in your cell at the second location and

8 looked out the window, if you did that, is that what you would have seen,

9 that area there? In other words, is the windows up on the right-hand side

10 the window leading to your cell at the municipal building? Or am I wrong?

11 A. Yes. These are our windows, the windows to our cell.

12 Q. Okay. Go on.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Next photo, please. This shows 03617712.

14 Q. That building with attractive stripes on it, is that the municipal

15 building, the one that's depicted on the right-hand side of the photo?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. Where was your cell? Or --

18 A. Our cell was between these two buildings where you can see the

19 yellow one down there.

20 Q. Right at the end of what appears to be a laneway?

21 A. Yes, where you can see yellow up there. And then down there,

22 that's where our prison was.

23 Q. So you can see a building with what appears to be a yellow or

24 orange addition and underneath at the end of the laneway is a building

25 built in more materials of --

1 A. Down there is where our prison was, and there's a man who works in

2 the recruitment office who built a house on top because there was just one

3 huge concrete slab without a roof at the time.

4 Q. Thank you. So are you saying that the pink or orange top is an

5 addition to the building that was added after you had been imprisoned?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thanks. Next one, please.

8 Does that show the court and the municipal building?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And that's number 03617714.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Next photograph, please. 03617716.

12 Q. Does that also depict the municipal building?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Next photo, please. 03617718.

16 Q. Do you recognise that corridor?

17 A. Yes. This is a corridor in our prison where we were detained.

18 Q. Thank you. You can see two doors there on the left-hand side of

19 the corridor. Is either one of those your -- the door that led to your

20 cell or is that not so? Or you can't be sure?

21 A. No. Our door was straight down the corridor and these doors, in

22 one of these cells, there were 14 women and four children.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Next one. 03617720.

25 Q. Do you have any idea where that -- where those doors and stairs

1 are located? Again, if you're not sure -- if you're not sure, say so.

2 A. I think this is the old police station, the stairs to the first

3 floor.

4 Q. All right.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Next one. Same number as before except ending in

6 22.

7 Q. Do you recognise that corridor?

8 A. I think this is the old police station.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours would please bear with me. We've

10 gone past time, but I'll finish this in a minute or two.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You've three or four more photos. Finish

12 those and we adjourn.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

14 Next photo, please. 03617724.

15 Q. What building is that?

16 A. This is the old police station, the entrance.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Next number. Identical to the previous number

19 except ending in 26.

20 Q. What is that building?

21 A. Police station again.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Next one. And again same number as before, except

24 ending in the number 28.

25 Q. What is that building?

1 A. This is the police station again. But the entrance as you

2 approach from the left this is the cellar door to the old police station.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, that's the end of the

4 photographs. That just leaves the video which will take about 10 minutes

5 tomorrow. I don't intend to show all of it. And then my

6 examination-in-chief is complete.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

8 So we stand adjourned until tomorrow morning. Yes. They are

9 tendered as P419 and then 1, 2, whatever.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: For the purposes of the transcript, I ask that it

11 now be given a full exhibit number.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. P419.

13 Mr. Nikolic, we will continue and finish tomorrow. I thank you.

14 Yes, Mr. Jones.

15 MR. JONES: Your Honours, I know it goes without saying but if the

16 witness could be reminded.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

18 Mr. Nikolic, while you are still giving testimony, that means

19 until tomorrow, you are not to communicate with anyone on the matters that

20 you are testifying about, and that doesn't mean just face-to-face, but

21 also on the phone. I don't want you to speak or contact anyone on the

22 matters that you are testifying about. Have I made myself clear?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

25 We stand adjourned until tomorrow morning. And tomorrow morning

1 we are changing courtroom because of an initial appearance commitment that

2 there is. So instead of -- we will be sitting in courtroom 2, courtroom 2

3 tomorrow morning at 9.00. Thank you.

4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m., to

6 be reconvened on Tuesday, the 7th day of December,

7 2004, at 9.00 a.m.

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