1 Thursday, 13 January 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Registrar. Could you call the case,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, and good morning to you, Mr. Oric. Are

10 you receiving interpretation in a language that you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, ladies

12 and gentlemen. Yes, I am receiving interpretation and I fully understand

13 the proceedings.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down.

15 Appearances for the Prosecution.

16 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning.

18 MR. WUBBEN: My name is Jan Wubben.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Microphone.

21 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours. My name is Jan Wubben,

22 lead counsel for the Prosecution, together with the co-counsels

23 Ms. Joanne Richardson, Ms. Patricia Sellers, and our case manager,

24 Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And good morning to you and your team.

1 Appearances for Mr. Oric.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I am

3 Vasvija Vidovic, together with Mr. John Jones, I appear for

4 Mr. Naser Oric. With us here today are our legal assistant, Ms. Jasmina

5 Cosic and our case manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good morning to you

7 and your team.

8 Now, before we bring any witness, any preliminaries? Yes,

9 Madam Vidovic.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Then may I ask a question. I am

12 informed that yesterday or the day before yesterday, rather, you gave us a

13 courtesy copy of a motion relating to the testimony and autopsy reports of

14 Dr. Stankovic. I checked yesterday to see why I had not received the

15 official motion, and I was informed that the motion had not been filed. Is

16 there a reason for that, Mr. Wubben?

17 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour. We intended to file. That's why

18 we gave a courtesy copy. We handed over. But due to Registry regulations

19 and policy, it could not be accepted. The motion as such could be

20 accepted, but not the CD that contains about a thousand pages of autopsy

21 reports as an annex to the statement by Dr. Stankovic. And that's why we

22 gave it a follow-up, trying to solve it, because it was not our intention

23 to translate it as it need focus on only a very selective part of it, and

24 we still also are in discussion with the Defence team to what extent we

25 might solve this problem. This means that we will file indeed a motion

1 like this, but please consider it as a draft, because it was goodwill and

2 an intention to file it. But we will get back later to you to update you

3 of the outcome of the discussion with the Defence counsel.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. I thank you, Mr. Wubben. If

5 there are further -- for the time being, I am not commenting any further.

6 But should you encounter further problems with the Registry with regard to

7 the filing of the annexes to the report, just don't file anything. Come

8 here and I will show you how easy the solution is.

9 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So are we ready for the witness? Just

11 before you go, I just want to -- usher, I just want to make sure --

12 registrar, please -- that he's been spoken to by the victims and witnesses

13 section and that he is fit to give evidence. Have you checked?

14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Radic.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning to the

18 Honourable Trial Chamber, ladies and gentlemen.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you and good morning to you. And welcome to

20 this Tribunal. Before I proceed any further, but you have already given

21 us an indication, I want to make sure that you are receiving

22 interpretation of what I am saying in English in a language that you can

23 understand, in your own language, in other words.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: You'll know the reason for your presence here in

1 this courtroom. You are about to start giving evidence in this case that

2 has been instituted by the Prosecutor against Naser Oric. You're one of

3 the witnesses and you have been summoned to give evidence by the

4 Prosecutor. However, before you start giving evidence, our Rules require

5 that you make a solemn declaration that in the course of your testimony

6 you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

7 truth. It's the same words that we use when in some jurisdictions you

8 take an oath before you start to testify. And the legal implications of a

9 solemn declaration are equivalent to those and identical to those of an

10 oath.

11 So, Madam Usher, who is standing next to you, is going to hand to

12 you now the text of the solemn declaration. Please take it your in your

13 hand, read it out loud, and that will be your solemn declaration with us.

14 WITNESS: NEDELJKO RADIC

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Mr. Radic. You may sit down.

19 Now, let me explain to you very briefly what's going to happen.

20 But before I start, I think it's onerous on my part, a duty on my part as

21 Presiding Judge of this trial, to apologise to you on behalf of the Trial

22 Chamber for having had to bring you twice to The Hague to give evidence. I

23 know, because I am informed, that you were already here in The Hague

24 before the Christmas holidays, but unfortunately, due to the length of

25 time that the previous witness took in concluding his testimony, we could

1 not start with your testimony, and there was no point in starting with

2 your testimony and stopping halfway. So we decided to send you back home

3 and then kindly ask you to return after Christmas, which we did. So I

4 apologise to you for any inconvenience we might have caused to you and to

5 your family, and I thank you for having returned to The Hague to give

6 evidence.

7 The procedure here is going to be as follows: You are first going

8 to be asked a series of questions by Ms. Sellers, who I suppose you have

9 already met, and then she will be followed by Mr. Jones, who is the

10 co-counsel in the team of Defence that is defending, appearing for

11 Mr. Oric.

12 Although you have been produced as a witness, brought forward as a

13 witness by the Prosecutor, in reality, you are no longer now a witness of

14 one side or of the other. You are a witness of the Court. You are a

15 witness of this Tribunal. And your responsibility in terms, in accordance

16 with the oath, with the solemn declaration that you undertook is to answer

17 each and every question that is put to you truthfully and fully as

18 possible, irrespective of who is putting the question. In other words,

19 you have no right to discriminate, say: I will answer fully and

20 truthfully the questions that Ms. Sellers will ask me, but I will not be

21 truthful and fully in my answers when Mr. Jones is putting questions. You

22 have no right to do that. Your responsibility is to be truthful and

23 honest in all your answers to all the questions that are put to you.

24 Did I make myself clear to you?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Indeed, Your Honour.

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1 JUDGE AGIUS: The last thing I want to tell you before we start is

2 that if at any moment, because you will be here for at least today and

3 part of tomorrow for sure, if at any moment you're feeling tired and you

4 need a break, or if you're not feeling well, please draw my attention

5 straight away and we will stop for as long as necessary.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. My name is Judge Agius, Carmel Agius. I come

8 from Malta. To my right I have Judge Brydensholt, who comes from Denmark;

9 to my left, I have Judge Eser, who comes from Germany.

10 Ms. Sellers.

11 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honours.

12 Your Honours, before addressing the witness, I would ask your

13 permission to lead this witness where it is more likely that we can have a

14 more accelerated and efficient rendering of his testimony. I ask

15 permission for that. But I would like to say also that this witness gives

16 substantial background information, as well as information related to the

17 underlying counts. Some of the background information might appear on its

18 face not to be relevant to some of the specific prison counts, but it is

19 the Prosecution position that background will later cooperate information

20 that other Prosecution witnesses will give. So I would ask your

21 indulgence in some of the areas that might seem more background than

22 actually pertinent for the underlying prison counts.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's take it -- let's have a response from

24 Mr. Jones on the first part, and then we'll tackle the second.

25 MR. JONES: Yes. We would particularly be for the detention

1 charges that we wouldn't want the Prosecution to lead the witness, so

2 obviously for background matters.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I didn't understand that you were going to lead the

4 witness on those, no?

5 MS. SELLERS: I did not intend to do that, Your Honour.

6 MR. JONES: As for the rest, I think we'll have to see how things

7 develop. And I prudently note we haven't -- our attention hasn't been

8 brought to any new areas which might be covered.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: As we'll see, that's more or less our position as

10 well, Mr. Jones.

11 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll play it by ear as we go along. And obviously

13 if you feel that at any point in time you need to object to a particular

14 question, do rise and object. And then obviously we tackle it. We'll get

15 an explanation. Because I don't know exactly what you are referring to. I

16 will only know when you get there. And if there is an objection. I mean,

17 it's --

18 MS. SELLERS: Certainly. I understand, Your Honour. I think it

19 will become apparent and it is no surprise.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I imagine. Okay. Thanks, both of you. We may

21 proceed. You can let the witness on the first part and get going.

22 Examined by Ms. Sellers:

23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Radic. Would you please state your full name

24 for the record.

25 A. Good morning to you. My name is Nedeljko Radic. My nickname is

1 Cikota. I was born on the 15th of July, 1951.

2 Q. Mr. Radic, would you please confirm for the Trial Chamber that

3 you're a Bosnian Serb and that you were 41 in 1992, precisely, September

4 1992?

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. Mr. Radic, would you also confirm that in 1992 you lived in the

7 town of Milici, which was in the Vlasenica municipality.

8 A. Yes. I still live there.

9 Q. And in 1992, you lived with your wife and three children; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I want to turn your attention very briefly to 1980. Mr. Radic,

13 didn't you begin to work at the state-owned Boksit bauxite mine in Bracan?

14 A. That's true.

15 Q. And isn't the bauxite mine located in the Vlasenica municipality?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Furthermore, isn't it correct that the bauxite mine was the

18 second-largest bauxite mine in Europe and a primary source of raw

19 materials to produce aluminum?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, prior to April 1992, could you confirm that the bauxite mine

22 had about 3.000 employees?

23 A. Perhaps even more. I'm certain about the 3.000, yes.

24 Q. And about half of those employees were ethnically Muslims, almost

25 the other half were Serbs, and there was also a small percentage of

1 Romanian employees; isn't that correct?

2 A. Yes. The percentage was thereabouts.

3 Q. And then would you please confirm, Mr. Radic, that for 12 years,

4 between 1980 and 1992, you worked as an air compressionist at the bauxite

5 mine?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And for the Tribunal -- the Trial Chamber's information, air

8 compressionists at that bauxite mine basically made sure that the

9 equipment at the mine that functioned based upon air pressure, that that

10 machinery was working; isn't that correct?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. Now, would you state that the relationship between the Muslims and

13 the Serb workers at the mine was generally good from the time you began to

14 work at the mine in 1980 until the spring of 1992?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And also, that it was a source of pride in the Vlasenica region to

17 be a worker at the bauxite mine?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, I would like you to explain to the Trial Chamber what, if

20 anything, happened between the Muslim and the Serb workers at the mine in

21 April 1992.

22 A. Nothing much happened. When the parties were established, the SDA

23 and the SDS, then workers of Muslim -- or rather, Bosniak ethnicity

24 started the leaving the mine en masse. So by the end of May, I think all

25 Bosniaks had left the mine. I'm talking about 1992. Perhaps a handful

1 remained.

2 Q. Did there also come a time in the spring of 1992, April or May,

3 when one of the buses at the mine was captured?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber the circumstances of

6 that capture.

7 A. A man named Cakura - I don't know his real name - intercepted a

8 bus full of workers at Djile. The bus was full. There were Bosniaks

9 there and Serbs too. Not all of the people in the bus were Serbs. He

10 drove the bus over to Zedanjsko. There's a school building there. The

11 area is actually called Brdo or Brda. That's where the school is. The

12 workers spent the night there, and the next day, following negotiations, I

13 presume they were released. Probably there were party negotiations going

14 on. There was intercession by Mr. Cakura and someone probably negotiated

15 on the part of the Serbs. That's at least what I heard. A man from the

16 SDS, from Pale. I'm not sure where from exactly. So the workers were

17 eventually freed.

18 Q. And you testified that there was a man named Cakura. Was he an

19 active member of the SDA party?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And was the SDA party a political party that supported the Bosnian

22 Muslim political goals in 1992?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And as a result of the capture of this bus, were the tensions

25 between the Muslim and the Serb workers at the mine escalated in a sense

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1 that made those relationships worse than before?

2 A. Well, not to that extent. Those who were closer to Cakura had

3 left the mine earlier and the people who were a little more loyal remained

4 at the bauxite mine, to work there. Following this incident, however, it

5 was only to be expected that they too would leave the mine. Only the

6 Serbs remained, and some Romanians.

7 Q. Now, did you know this person Cakura before the capture of the

8 bus?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How long had you known him?

11 A. For about five years. He owned a shop which was in his own house.

12 The distance from the mine was perhaps two or three kilometres. We would

13 go to his shop practically on a daily basis, to buy cigarettes or whatever

14 else we needed.

15 Q. Did you ever speak to this Cakura personally, then?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you ever hear him speak, meaning were you familiar with his

18 voice if he spoke to other persons?

19 A. I'm familiar with the voice. I think I could still recognise it.

20 Q. Now, as a result of many of the Muslim employees leaving the mine,

21 did the mine cease to function?

22 A. No. The mine continued to operate, but with less capacity.

23 Q. Now, in May 1992, during this period of employees leaving the

24 mine, did your job function modify? Did you take on other duties at the

25 mine?

1 A. We received a different roster. For this reason, some of the

2 workers had to secure the mine. I was among those workers. We were

3 guards there, sort of. We stood guard.

4 Q. Would you please explain to the Trial Chamber, then: As a guard,

5 what were your duties?

6 A. The same as before the war, the guards before the war. Every

7 company in the former Yugoslavia had those. I'm not sure about the rest

8 of the world. Every company had guards who stood guard and watched over

9 the equipment. There were workshops there, machines, kitchens, and the

10 management, at least in the main branch of a certain company. So that's

11 what they watched and that was their task.

12 Q. As a guard, were you issued a rifle or another form of a weapon?

13 A. A rifle. The rifles, before the war, every Territorial Defence

14 unit, national Territorial Defence unit, had these rifles. So the TO had

15 weapons. Those were M-48 rifles, for the most part, and we would sign for

16 those rifles, those of us who secured the mine, the guards, in other

17 words.

18 Q. And were those rifles, were they your own personal weapons or were

19 they weapons that belonged to the company?

20 A. No. The company.

21 Q. And when you worked as a guard, these additional duties at the

22 mine, were you considered a soldier or were you considered a civilian mine

23 worker?

24 A. I was a worker, a miner.

25 Q. Mr. Radic, now I want to turn your attention to the summer of

1 1992, between June and September. Were there trucks, buses, or other

2 transport owned by the mine, were these vehicles ever involved in

3 ambushes?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Would you please explain to the Trial Chamber the nature of the

6 ambushes that these transport vehicles were subjected to.

7 A. Those were village ambushes, mostly the trucks that were carrying

8 or were stopped occasionally at the so-called checkpoints or barricades,

9 at a place called Djile, or Zutica, Konjevic Polje. In those three

10 locations.

11 Q. And could you tell the Trial Chamber who or what group were

12 stopping the transport vehicles.

13 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you that. Cakura was probably aware of

14 who was doing it in Djile, and I don't know about the other two locations.

15 Q. Do you know whether these were Muslims or whether they were Serbs

16 who were stopping the vehicles?

17 A. I think it was Muslims, because those places had 100 Muslim

18 population. Or rather, Djile and Zutica had 100 Muslim population, and

19 even in Konjevic Polje, there were about 80 per cent of Muslims, although

20 there were some Serb family houses as well.

21 Q. As a result of these vehicles being stopped, were any of the

22 drivers or persons on those vehicles killed?

23 A. Yes. Many drivers were killed.

24 Q. Now, you stated that you became a guard at the mine. Who were you

25 guarding the mine from?

1 A. From Muslims, because the war had already begun and we all got our

2 wartime assignments. Although we were not guarding only from Muslims; we

3 were guarding it from anyone. We were there to protect the mine.

4 Q. Mr. Radic, did there come a time when the mine was attacked?

5 A. Yes, on the 24th of September, 1992.

6 Q. I would like you to tell the Trial Chamber what you were doing on

7 the morning of the 24th of September.

8 A. That morning, around 9.00 a.m., I had breakfast and then we set

9 out to get some water, five of us guards. We took a piece of mining

10 equipment, a loader, which we had used before to get water. When we set

11 out, we took two rifles, as usual, two M-48 rifles, and we went down to a

12 place called Bracan, to Bozo's house. And I stood on the bonnet of this

13 loader, and I was standing there when they started shooting at us, at the

14 machine perhaps, not at me personally. And then we abandoned the idea of

15 going to get water. We abandoned the machine and decided to go back to

16 Bracan, where we had set out from.

17 However, two of my fellow workers remained by Bozo's house,

18 namely, Slavko and Krnja, K-r-n-j-a. Whereas three of us went back to

19 Bracan: myself, Nedeljko Radic; and Zoran Lalovic; and Vidoje

20 Salipurevic.

21 When we were already close to Bracan -- it is an elevation, so

22 that when the road was dug out, the barrier was about two metres high, and

23 on that side next to the boundary, next to the barrier, was I, and next to

24 me were Vidoje Salipurevic and Zoran Lalovic.

25 Q. Mr. Radic, thank you. I would just like to ask you a couple of

1 questions about what you have just testified about. The vehicle that you

2 were in, was it a vehicle that belonged to the mining company?

3 A. Yes. Yes. It was used for loading ore.

4 Q. Okay. It was not a military vehicle, was it?

5 A. No. No, it wasn't.

6 Q. Now, you testified that at a point there was shooting and you

7 stopped, you got out of the vehicle; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I would like to ask you from where the vehicle stopping, could you

10 see the town of Podravanje, or the village of Podravanje?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was there anything in particular that appeared to be happening at

13 the village of Podravanje that morning, the 24th of September?

14 A. Yes. It was burning. Smoke was coming up in clouds, columns.

15 Q. Now, when you returned, when you left the vehicle and you started

16 to return back to Bracan, where the mine was, did you have any weapons

17 with you?

18 A. There were those two rifles, and I don't know if you gentlemen and

19 ladies are aware of it. Those are M-48 rifles, which can take five

20 rounds, plus one in the barrel. Two rifles of that kind remained with

21 Slavko and Krnja at that house, because they had carried the rifles in the

22 first place. Of course, they returned gunfire and ran out of ammunition,

23 and we didn't need the empty rifles any more, because we were going to

24 Bracan, and our rifles were up there in Bracan, in a small cottage

25 normally used for camping, where we spent our nights. And we never

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1 reached them, because of what happened. Zoran and Vidoje were killed and

2 I was captured, without any weapon, that is.

3 Q. Now, when you returned to the mine, to Bracan, would you please

4 describe what you saw happening at the mine upon your arrival.

5 A. When I was captured, I was personally captured by Zulfo

6 Tursunovic, whom I had known before. I also knew his brother and Milehu

7 [phoen] and many other people. There were many other co-workers who used

8 to work with him at the mine, Muslim workers, who on that occasion beat me

9 up and tied me down.

10 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber, when you say they beat

11 you up and tied you down, how did they beat you? And would you please

12 tell the Trial Chamber whether at that point this person you describe as

13 Zulfo was present.

14 A. Yes, he was. They tied my hands behind my back, and a couple of

15 minutes later -- my nickname was Cikota, and a relative of mine had been

16 in prison together with Zulfo before the war. And it is most likely that

17 it was he who saved me then. So then Zulfo ordered three men, whom I

18 didn't know, including a person named or referred to as Beli, as far as I

19 can remember, ordered them to take me to Zulfo's house, in a place called

20 Vijogor, where they were supposed to await further orders.

21 Q. Mr. --

22 A. Before he issued that order to take me away, he took some kind of

23 notepad, and as five of my co-workers were lying dead around me, I was

24 supposed to give him their names, and he took them down in this notepad.

25 And the five men were -- shall I tell you the names?

1 Q. Yes, you may.

2 A. Those were Slavko Salipurevic, Vidoje Salipurevic, Zoran Lalovic,

3 Rajko Antic, and Miso Misic.

4 Q. Mr. Radic, I'd like to ask you: When you went back to the mine

5 and you said that you had your hands tied, people were kicking you, could

6 you tell me whether the people who were tying your hands or kicking you,

7 were they wearing -- what type of clothing were they wearing?

8 A. There were many in civilian clothing. Some wore uniforms,

9 including Zulfo, who had a camouflage uniform on. At that time, I didn't

10 even know what an American camouflage uniform looked like, until I was

11 told. And there were many people carrying weapons, hunting rifles,

12 shotguns, which said to me that they were not active-duty army troops.

13 Those were local people, most of whom I knew, people from Djile,

14 Zedanjsko, Tuzeri, Zutica.

15 Q. Could you also tell me whether Zulfo Tursunovic was carrying a

16 weapon.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What type of weapon was he carrying?

19 A. An automatic rifle.

20 Q. Did he at any time participate in the beating of you while you

21 were tied and on the ground?

22 A. He was there. He was probably watching. I was kicked down to the

23 ground and I wasn't able to look around any more.

24 Q. Now, you stated that Mr. Zulfo Tursunovic had been in gaol before.

25 Do you know why he had been in gaol before?

1 A. Yes. He had killed two persons in Srebrenica, in a barroom owned

2 by a Serb. The two men whom Zulfo had killed were Muslims.

3 Q. Would you describe Zulfo Tursunovic physically for the Trial

4 Chamber, please.

5 A. He was probably 1.7 metres tall, with a pudgy, reddish face,

6 stocky, looking rather strong. I don't know what he looks like now. I

7 haven't seen him since.

8 Q. Do you approximately know what age he had at that period, in 1992?

9 A. He could have been 60, perhaps, but he didn't look more than 50.

10 I'm not sure.

11 Q. Do you know whether Zulfo Tursunovic is Muslim or Serb?

12 A. He's a Muslim.

13 Q. And the other people who were at that mine that day that you

14 described as wearing uniforms, do you know whether they were Muslim or

15 Serb?

16 A. Of course they were Muslims. I don't know. Maybe there was a

17 Serb among them as well, but I rather doubt it.

18 Q. And I have to ask you the same question: In terms of the

19 civilians that were with the Muslim soldiers that day, the people in

20 uniform, do you know whether they were Muslim or Serb?

21 A. Muslims.

22 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, is it your testimony that it was Zulfo Tursunovic

23 who appeared to be giving orders that day?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did he appear to be giving orders to the uniformed men who were at

1 the mine?

2 A. I think he gave orders to everybody, civilians and those in

3 uniform alike.

4 Q. Now, did you see anybody giving orders to Zulfo Tursunovic that

5 day at the mine?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did Zulfo Tursunovic have in his possession or on him that day a

8 Motorola?

9 A. Yes, he did.

10 Q. Excuse me. Would you please tell the Trial Chamber what is a

11 Motorola, or the type of Motorola that Zulfo Tursunovic had on him that

12 day.

13 A. It's not unlike a mobile telephone, although it's longer, with an

14 extended aerial, the sort of equipment that the police have usually.

15 Q. Now, you testified that it was Zulfo Tursunovic who took you

16 around to your dead former colleagues and asked you what their names were.

17 Did Zulfo Tursunovic look surprised at all that those men at the mine were

18 dead?

19 A. Yes. No, he didn't.

20 Q. Was it your impression that day that your colleagues had been

21 killed by either the soldiers or the civilians that were present at the

22 mine that day?

23 A. I don't know. All of them were together, the civilians and those

24 men in uniform, and it's most likely that they were under the command of

25 Zulfo Tursunovic, at least. That's what I firmly believe, but I wasn't

1 there. I couldn't tell you for sure.

2 Q. Now, you also testified that Zulfo Tursunovic gave an order to

3 have you removed from the mine. Would you tell the Trial Chamber under

4 what circumstances did you then leave the mine that morning, after Zulfo

5 gave the order?

6 A. I was --

7 MR. JONES: [Previous translation continues] ... testimony that

8 Zulfo Tursunovic gave an order to have him removed from the mine. I

9 really don't recall him saying that.

10 MS. SELLERS: Why don't -- Your Honour, I believe that he did say

11 that earlier, but I will certainly -- can rephrase the question and ask:

12 Q. Did Zulfo Tursunovic give any order in regard to you leaving the

13 mine that morning?

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... for the time

16 being. Yes, go ahead.

17 MS. SELLERS:

18 Q. Yes, Mr. Radic. I believe you just answered. I asked whether

19 Zulfo Tursunovic gave an order to have you removed from the mine. Would

20 you please tell the Trial Chamber -- and I believe the witness answered

21 yes to the question.

22 Would you then tell the Trial Chamber how you left the mine, with

23 whom did you leave the mine, what were the circumstances of you leaving

24 the mine at that time?

25 A. My hands were tied behind my back. I was escorted by three men,

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1 one of them in uniform, two of them in civilian clothing.

2 Q. The person who was in uniform, did you know or did you come to

3 know his name?

4 A. No.

5 Q. The two people who were civilians, did you know their names?

6 A. One was called Beli, and I didn't know about the other one.

7 Q. Now, as you left the mine, did you pass the house of Bozo, that

8 you had described or testified earlier as the house where your two fellow

9 guards went to?

10 A. [No interpretation] Da.

11 Q. Would you please tell me, tell the Trial Chamber, did you see

12 those two guards again who had sought refuge in Bozo's house?

13 A. Those men who had been killed were there in the house.

14 Q. Are those men Slavko Gordic and Krnja?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. As you were now walking with your armed escorts, did any other

17 prisoners or people under arrest join you in your walk?

18 A. Yes. Kukic and Nevenko joined me.

19 Q. Were they walking by themselves or were they walking with other

20 people?

21 A. They were walking together with me, with their hands tied as well,

22 and we went up to Zulfo's house, where those armed escorts awaited further

23 orders to transport us to Srebrenica.

24 Q. Now, how many armed escorts were with you, Kukic, and Nevenko?

25 A. The same three that had set out with me from Bracan.

1 Q. Now, as you were walking towards Zulfo Tursunovic's house, did any

2 of those persons walking with you have a Motorola?

3 A. No.

4 Q. When you were walking in the house -- towards Zulfo Tursunovic's

5 house, did any of those persons, those armed persons walking with you, hit

6 you or strike you with any instruments or with their hands or feet?

7 A. They beat us in the village of Kutezero [phoen], when we arrived

8 there, they were joined by another man, and that's where we were beaten.

9 That newly arrived man had some portable radio which he used to transmit

10 to somebody words to the effect that the operation is going on

11 successfully. That's all I was able to hear.

12 Q. Do you know what operation he was referring to?

13 A. No.

14 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, might I ask one moment? Could I ask

15 the usher to please move the ELMO back a bit. I think there's a slight

16 line of sight that's a bit perturbing. Yes. Could you just remove that.

17 I'm seeing that -- thank you.

18 Q. Mr. Radic, about how long did it take you to get to Zulfo

19 Tursunovic's house that day?

20 A. About two hours.

21 Q. Now, when you arrived in Zulfo Tursunovic's house, did you see

22 people dressed in uniforms near and around his house?

23 A. There were people around his house. I didn't go inside. Most of

24 those around the house were civilians, although there were two uniformed

25 men as well.

1 Q. And how long did you stay outside of Zulfo Tursunovic's house that

2 day?

3 A. An hour.

4 Q. Were you still under armed escort at that point or had your hands

5 been untied and were you allowed to move around freely?

6 A. No. The armed escorts did not change. Our hands remained tied.

7 Q. Now, you described two people having joined you, one called Kukic

8 and another called Nevenko. Would you please tell the Trial Chamber

9 whether you knew Mr. Nevenko prior to seeing him that day as you walked to

10 Zulfo Tursunovic's house.

11 A. This Nevenko and Kukic were men whom I had come to know two or

12 three months prior. They are originally from Indjija, in Serbia. They

13 were hired by the mine, under a three-month contract or something, to work

14 in the security detail, as guards.

15 Q. So, Mr. Radic, it's your testimony that both Mr. Kukic and Nevenko

16 were also employees at the mine?, the bauxite mine, excuse me?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, while you were waiting at the house of Zulfo Tursunovic, did

19 there come a time period when you and the other two men were removed to

20 another place?

21 A. Can you please repeat the question.

22 Q. Yes. Let me rephrase that. Did there come a time when you were

23 placed in a truck and removed from the area of Zulfo Tursunovic's house?

24 A. [No interpretation] Da.

25 Q. Would you please tell me how you and the other men were placed in

1 the truck and describe for Your Honours your positions.

2 A. It was a small truck. When they put us on the truck, we were all

3 three of us seated, with our hands tied, of course, and there were another

4 three men with us. Two of them were armed and one wasn't. There were all

5 three of them in civilian clothing. This man called Beli was seated. I

6 think he was an ethnic Albanian, or at least that's what I found out at a

7 later date. He used to work at the Srebrenica Sase mine.

8 Q. Now, who was driving the truck?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Do you know the names of any of the people who were in the truck

11 with you in the back other than Beli?

12 A. [No interpretation].

13 Q. Were there any soldiers in the truck?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Do you know whether you were being removed as a result of an order

16 of Zulfo Tursunovic?

17 A. Most probably. When he said that they were to await orders at his

18 house, so that was the assumption, yes.

19 Q. Now, while you were in the truck and the truck, I presume, was

20 moving, did anything happen to you, Mr. Kukic, or Nevenko?

21 A. They took Kukic's watch off, my shoes and trousers. It was

22 civilian clothing, of course. It was autumn time, and the shoes were made

23 for winter. That was probably the reason they liked them. They hit us

24 here and there. They made threats, that sort of thing.

25 Q. Now, where did this truck eventually take you?

1 A. To Srebrenica, outside the SUP building.

2 Q. Now, is that the town of Srebrenica or are you just referring

3 generally to the municipality of Srebrenica?

4 A. Srebrenica municipality.

5 Q. And did you go to the town of Srebrenica, in Srebrenica

6 municipality?

7 A. Yes. The police station.

8 Q. And around what time of the day was it now when you arrived at the

9 SUP in Srebrenica?

10 A. It was night already. I can't remember the exact time.

11 Q. Were you still under armed guard when you arrived at the SUP?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, upon arrival, would you tell the Trial Chamber where you were

14 taken.

15 A. Inside the SUP building, to a room that was three or four square

16 metres.

17 Q. Now, did this room have bars on it or was it an open, normal room?

18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 Q. Would you tell the Trial Chamber how many people were placed into

20 that room with bars on it at that time.

21 A. The three of us came first: Kukic, Nevenko, and myself. During

22 the night, Veselin Sarac and Zoran Bankovic joined us. There were five of

23 us at that point.

24 Q. Did you know Veselin Sarac and Zoran Bankovic before you were

25 placed in a cell with them in September 1992?

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1 A. I did know Veselin. He worked at the bauxite mine. And I did not

2 know Zoran.

3 Q. Do you know whether they were Muslims or whether they were Serbs?

4 A. They were Serbs.

5 Q. Do you know whether they had been arrested by Muslim soldiers or

6 by civilians?

7 A. I don't know that.

8 Q. Do you know where they had been arrested?

9 A. In Podravanje.

10 Q. Is Podravanje the village that you testified earlier that had been

11 burning when your loader was stopped and you saw from the hillside?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, you mentioned that the cell was, I believe, three by four

14 metres. Could you please indicate for the Trial Chamber whether the cell

15 had any windows in it, whether the cell had any beds in it, and whether

16 the cell had any toilet facilities in it.

17 A. My apologies. I didn't say it was three by four. I said it was

18 three or four square metres. The size, three by four, that means twelve

19 square metres, which is a rather large space.

20 Q. My apologies. Would you please correct me and indicate for the

21 Trial Chamber, then, the correct dimensions of the cell.

22 A. Three or four square metres.

23 Q. Now --

24 A. Maybe one and a half by two metres, thereabouts.

25 Q. Were there any beds in the cell?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Were there any chairs in the cell?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Were there toilet facilities in the cell?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Were there open windows or air ventilation places in the cell?

7 A. There was some sort of a window, an opening, but it was not a

8 proper window. There was no glass pane. It was just empty.

9 Q. From your point of view was there room enough in the cell forever

10 any of the men, Bankovic, Kukic, Nevenko, yourself, to be able to lie down

11 comfortably in the cell?

12 A. Not really lying down properly. There were two square metres of

13 floor down there, and the rest was just a concrete slab. So it was too

14 cold.

15 Q. Mr. Radic, on that first night, the 24th of September, 1992, did

16 anything happen to you or the other men who were in the cell with you in

17 terms of physical mistreatment?

18 A. The next day after we were captured, we were taken out for an

19 interrogation.

20 Q. Excuse me. Can I just have you answer the question. That first

21 night that you were there, did anything happen to you in terms of physical

22 mistreatment, the night that you arrived?

23 A. No. No, not when we arrived.

24 Q. Okay. Now could you tell the Trial Chamber, yes, on the second

25 day that you were there, you were testifying that you were taken out for

1 interrogation. Please continue.

2 A. To a police chief. I'm not sure what his name was. He wore a

3 beard. I was brought to see him. We were taken out one by one. Of

4 course, there was another civilian sitting there, and the chief too was in

5 plain clothes. He asked me whether I smoked. I said yes. He gave me a

6 cigarette, tobacco. I took it. And he started to kick me.

7 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, you said that you were taken out. Does that mean

8 that you were taken out of the cell that you've just described for the

9 Trial Chamber?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And were you taken to another --

12 A. To another room.

13 Q. Yes. And do you know where this other room was in the SUP

14 building?

15 A. Of course I do.

16 Q. Could you describe how you got from your cell to the other room,

17 please.

18 A. There's a corridor. Once I was out of the room, I headed straight

19 for a door down the corridor. That room was larger, and that's where the

20 two people were. Therefore, first I left the cell. To the left, there

21 was one room; to the right, there was a flight of stairs leading up to the

22 first floor, and another down to the cellar. I headed straight down the

23 corridor and the chief's room was at the end of it.

24 Q. Now, did you leave your cell on your own? Did you just open up

25 the cell door or the door with the bars on it and go to the room, or did

1 someone take you there?

2 A. No. I don't know who it was. A guard, perhaps, or the person who

3 kept the keys to the cell and the prison. There were two persons in

4 civilian clothing.

5 Q. Now, you said that when you were in the room being interrogated,

6 that you think it might have been a chief of police. Could you please

7 describe what that person was wearing.

8 A. I'm not sure I can remember. He had some sort of a T-shirt, a

9 pair of trousers, a long beard.

10 Q. Was he wearing --

11 A. That's at least as far as I can remember now.

12 Q. Right. Was he -- were any of the other persons in the room

13 wearing uniforms or what appeared to be military clothing?

14 A. No. No. Civilian.

15 Q. And were you treated during that interrogation as a prisoner of

16 war, meaning were you asked your name, your rank, your serial number, any

17 military affiliation?

18 A. Yes. They wanted to know my name, whether I was a soldier, and

19 what my rank was, who my commander was.

20 Q. Did they tell you whether you had been charged with any crime or

21 illegal activity?

22 A. No. It's difficult for me to say how they treated me. I know

23 they asked me about my rank and my commander. Of course, I told them that

24 I had no rank, that I was not a soldier, that I was a worker. Every time

25 I replied, I would be hit by this chief.

1 Q. Now, where would this chief hit you?

2 A. I was seated on a chair. He would kick me in the chest, over my

3 face.

4 Q. Can you recall about how many times that you were kicked or hit

5 during this interrogation?

6 A. About three or four times.

7 Q. As a result of being kicked or hit, did you suffer pain? Were you

8 bleeding? Were there any bruises forming on your body?

9 A. I didn't have any injuries, but it did hurt, of course.

10 Q. Were you then taken back to your cell after the interrogation or

11 were you taken to another place in the building?

12 A. Back to the cell.

13 Q. Now, when you went back to your cell, do you recall whether you

14 were bleeding or not?

15 A. No.

16 Q. No, you do not recall, or no, you were not bleeding?

17 A. I was not bleeding.

18 Q. When you returned to the cell, was anyone else of the men who were

19 with you in the cell then taken out for interrogation?

20 A. Yes. They took Veselin Sarac.

21 Q. And did Veselin Sarac come back to the cell after he had been

22 interrogated?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know whether he also was physically mistreated, such as

25 beaten, when he went for his interrogation that morning?

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1 A. I don't know. I wasn't present. But he said that he had a

2 tougher time than I did, because he was bleeding when he came back.

3 Q. Do you know that if after Veselin Sarac was Mr. Kukic or Zoran

4 Bankovic or Nevenko, were they also called out to be interrogated that

5 day?

6 A. No, not on that day.

7 Q. Were they interrogated on other days that you were in the prison?

8 A. I don't know. I can't remember.

9 Q. Staying on the 25th of September, 1992: Would you tell the Trial

10 Chamber what happened, if anything, that evening.

11 A. That evening, a man came to the cell. At night, there was no

12 electricity, no lighting. And they took us out one by one. Veselin Sarac

13 was the first to be taken out. I don't know what they did to him in that

14 room. That was another room that was across the way from the cell. After

15 a while, he was returned. Then they took me out.

16 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, when you say that "they" took Veselin Sarac out

17 and then "they" took you out --

18 A. From the cell.

19 Q. From the cell. Would you please describe, to the best of your

20 ability, what the people, they, looked like who took you out of the cell.

21 A. They wore [Realtime transcript read in error "swore"] civilian

22 clothes.

23 Q. And where did they take you to? Another room in the SUP building,

24 you mentioned.

25 A. The same building, the adjacent room. They kept taking us there

1 to beat us. There was some sort of a reception room that's next to the

2 street entrance. Kemo from Pale was there in that room almost every

3 evening. Whenever they took us out, we would find Kemo there. And a man

4 they called Mrki was usually with him.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Sellers. Mr. Jones.

6 MR. JONES: Yes. It's just a matter with the transcript. As we

7 understand, the witness when asked, and it's line 24, page 31, he said

8 they were civilians as opposed to they wore civilian clothes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Actually, it's "they swore," "they swore."

10 MR. JONES: It's to the effect that I think he just said

11 "civilians," I don't think he mentioned clothes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. I mean I wouldn't be able to tell you

13 that.

14 Mr. Radic, you were asked earlier on, from the cell, would you

15 please describe for the best of your ability, what the people, they looked

16 like when -- who took you out of the cell. Did -- what was your answer?

17 You described what they were wearing or did you say they were just

18 civilians?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That evening, civilian, civilian

20 clothes. When I say "civilian," that means the person is wearing civilian

21 clothes, doesn't it.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's leave it and proceed, Ms. Sellers, please.

23 MS. SELLERS:

24 Q. Mr. Radic, the people who were wearing civilian clothes were they

25 carrying weapons or could you see whether they were armed or not?

1 A. No.

2 Q. You testified that these people then took you to another room

3 where there was a Kemo, someone called Kemo, and windows. Is this a room

4 in the SUP building where there is a stove?

5 A. Yes. But I apologise. I will correct your question a little.

6 Those were not just persons. There was a person wearing civilian clothes

7 who took us out. I found out later that his name was Cude and he was

8 wearing civilian clothes. He would take us to that very room. And that's

9 where they beat us and mistreated us.

10 Q. Now, you've mentioned the name Kemo, and you said that they would

11 beat us. Is Kemo a nickname or is that someone's full name?

12 A. I found out later his real name, Kemal Ahmetovic. I don't know

13 whether it's true, but the way people referred to him at the time was Kemo

14 from Pale. Probably the reference was to a place called Pale, or maybe it

15 was just another nickname. I really can't be sure.

16 Q. Now, could you tell the Trial Chamber how Kemo was dressed. What

17 clothing was he wearing, if you remember?

18 A. Camouflage uniform.

19 Q. And would you also describe what Kemo looked like physically.

20 A. He was a very strong man, young, 170 centimetres, thereabouts.

21 Q. Were there any other men in that room with the stove who were

22 wearing uniforms?

23 A. This man they called Mrki was wearing civilian clothes, and there

24 were two other men wearing civilian clothes, or suits, rather.

25 Q. Now, did this man Mrki, could you describe what he looked like

1 physically.

2 A. Very tall, over two metres. A big, burly man.

3 Q. Now, you did testify that going to that room is where you would

4 receive a beating. Would you tell the Trial Chamber, on that first day

5 that you went to the room, what type of beating you yourself received.

6 A. I was beaten. They used their fists and they kicked me too. I'm

7 talking about that evening. I'm not sure how I should put it. There were

8 logs stacked up there. There was an oven. And there were logs stacked

9 there a metre high.

10 Q. And did they use the logs to beat you with?

11 A. It was for firewood, but they used it every now and then.

12 Q. Now, did Kemo beat you that night?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How would he beat you?

15 A. First he kicked me. Then he used his fists. And then Mrki also

16 hit me several times. They kept me there for a while. They went to get

17 Kukic. Not they, but the guard, rather, the man called Cude. He brought

18 Kukic over and they started beating him then.

19 Q. Mr. Radic --

20 A. They started insulting him.

21 Q. Excuse me. I just want to mention, we'll return to the beating of

22 Mr. Kukic later on. Was Veselin Sarac beaten that night or Zoran Bankovic

23 or Nevenko?

24 A. We were all beaten. I said that Sarac was the first to be taken

25 out, and then he was returned to the cell, and then they came for me.

1 Q. Now, when Mr. Sarac returned to the cell, could you describe how

2 he looked when he came back to the cell as opposed to how he looked when

3 he had left the cell that day, or that time?

4 A. It was night. It was very difficult for me to see anything. It

5 was dark. I really can't tell you what he looked like.

6 Q. Could you see him the following morning?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did he have the appearance of someone who had been beaten?

9 A. Of course.

10 Q. And what did that look like to you, Mr. Radic, the fact that he

11 had been beaten?

12 A. I didn't really pay that much attention to Veselin. I tried to

13 look after myself, because I hurt very badly. They cracked me over the

14 back and over the chest with the log. I had fractures. This proved to be

15 the case later, after I was exchanged. I was suffering severe pain and

16 some of my teeth were smashed. Therefore, I wasn't paying much attention

17 to the state that Veselin Sarac was in.

18 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I would like to ask possibly could we

19 break at this time period because then I'll be moving into --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: In fact I was going to draw your attention,

21 Ms. Sellers, that you only had two or three minutes left.

22 MS. SELLERS: I think rather than continue --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. We'll break for 25 minutes. Would that

24 be enough for you, Mr. Radic, or do you require more?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, quite enough.

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1 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... and then we

2 resume soon after. Thank you.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Ms. Sellers. Do you think you will finish

6 with the witness today?

7 MS. SELLERS: There is a possibility.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: As I see it, there is a possibility.

9 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm gauging it --

11 MS. SELLERS: I myself am noticing it too. There might be just a

12 little bit of overlap tomorrow.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thanks. In which case, you would be able to finish

14 in one sitting?

15 MR. JONES: Yes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's fine. Thank you. Let's proceed,

17 Ms. Sellers, please. Thank you.

18 MS. SELLERS:

19 Q. Mr. Radic, you were testifying that you had been taken to the room

20 where there was a stove and the pieces of wood, and you were beaten. My

21 question now is: You have described someone named Mrki as wearing

22 civilian clothes. Do you ever recall, when you said that that person

23 might have been wearing a uniform or military clothes while he was in that

24 room and administering beatings?

25 A. I didn't see him in uniform.

1 Q. Mr. Radic, did you speak to investigators from the Office of the

2 Prosecution in May, in the year 2000? More specifically, a female

3 investigator named Eileen Gilleece? Do you recall that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And do you also recall that she took a statement that basically

6 recounted your experiences at the SUP building, and that after the

7 statement was taken, that you read the statement over and that you signed

8 her name to the statement?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. SELLERS: With Your Honours' permission, I would like to read

11 out two sections of that statement and ask the witness if he remember

12 having given that as his prior statement.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead, Ms. Sellers.

14 MS. SELLERS:

15 Q. Mr. Radic, I will ask you whether you recall having stated or

16 having told the investigator that "he was dressed" and the "he" at this

17 point - I am not trying to be confusing - does not refer to Mrki but to

18 another person. It says: "He was dressed in a yellow khaki beige

19 uniform, which is called an American uniform. On the left breast pocket

20 of his shirt he wore a patch that had lilies on it. It was a special

21 uniform. Only he and Mrki wore uniforms like that. Later I met another

22 commander named Mrki."

23 And then do you recall having told the investigator that, in

24 relationship to the uniform of a person called Mrki?

25 A. Mrki? No. Unless there are two persons called Mrki. The

1 description is all right with the lilies. But that was the sort of

2 uniform that Kemo wore.

3 Q. Yes. And might I now read out another paragraph from that

4 statement. This is in reference to the room with the wood-burning stove:

5 "Two other soldiers were in the room. One was dressed in an American

6 uniform, a special one, like the one Naser Oric wore. It was the same

7 colour and type, and he wore the same patch with lilies on the left

8 breast. Kemo called this soldier Mrki. Mrki did not have a pistol on him

9 at that time."

10 Do you recall telling the investigator from the Office of the

11 Prosecution that information in your statement in May of 2000?

12 A. I don't remember about the uniform. Again, I'm saying only there

13 were two persons called Mrki. I only knew of one myself. That's all I

14 can say about that.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: The question that is being asked with you is not

16 whether you remember now about the uniforms, but whether what has been

17 read out to you by Ms. Sellers are your actual words to the investigators

18 when you gave the statement way back in -- I don't remember the date.

19 MS. SELLERS: May 2000, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: May 2000.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, about the uniform, that much is

22 certain. I did give that statement, but I don't remember about Mrki and

23 the uniform specifically.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

25 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll proceed.

1 Q. Now, you described the beating that you received when you were in

2 the room with the wood-burning stove. During that beating, did you lose

3 any of the teeth that were in your mouth?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Would you please explain to the Trial Chamber how you came to lose

6 your teeth during that time.

7 A. Kemo was beating me, as well as Mrki, the Mrki that I know. He

8 was a civilian. They punched me, kicked me, breaking my teeth. All that

9 happened that evening. It was the second night, the first night after I

10 was captured.

11 Q. Did they use any instruments to remove your teeth or did they

12 remove your -- did your teeth fall out as a result of blows or kicks?

13 A. Not that night. The next night.

14 Q. Would you please describe to the Trial Chamber what happened to

15 you in relationship to your teeth on the following evening.

16 A. The next day and the next evening, because nobody maltreated us or

17 beat us by day, only at night, except when we went to the lavatory, if

18 somebody happened to be in the hallway, they would hit us in passing.

19 Once I was hit in passing with an iron bar. They would also kick us,

20 punch us. So that next night when I was taken out, Kemo started to beat

21 me again, and then he took pliers and extracted the bits of teeth that

22 were left after the beating of the previous night, the teeth that were

23 already broken. The pliers were very broad, so he could get two or three

24 teeth in the same go. And after that, he disinfected the wound with

25 urine.

1 Q. Mr. Radic, when you had your teeth extracted by Kemo, were you

2 given any type of medication or sedative in order to diminish the pain of

3 the extraction of the teeth?

4 A. No. No. There was no such thing.

5 Q. When you say that then your teeth or your mouth were disinfected

6 by urine, would it be your testimony that Kemo or another person put urine

7 in your mouth?

8 A. Yes. Kemo did.

9 Q. Would you tell the Trial Chamber where were you in the SUP

10 building when your teeth were extracted and when Kemo urinated in your

11 mouth.

12 A. It's the room with the wood-burning stove.

13 Q. So you have described having been beaten on your first full day,

14 the 25th [Realtime transcript read in error "20th"] of September, by

15 Mr. Kemo, and there were other people present, such as Mrki, and this

16 happened again on the 26th of September, 1992, when your teeth were

17 extracted. Were there other times during your stay in the prison when you

18 were taken to the room with the wooden stove and beaten or maltreated?

19 A. Yes, of course, every time they took us out and brought us there,

20 they would beat us.

21 Q. Would that happen every day within a 24-hour period during your

22 stay at the prison?

23 A. Well, to separate day from night, I have to say that nobody

24 touched us by day. We were left alone. And we were not even beaten every

25 night, because when Cude was the turnkey, so to say, of that prison, he

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1 wouldn't allow anyone to do any harm to us, and we were safe from harm

2 every time he was the duty guard.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sellers, Judge Eser is drawing my attention that

4 perhaps the date of the 26th of September is wrong. Is it the 26th or the

5 25th? 20th. Sorry, not the 26th. The 20th is wrong. On line 14. You

6 asked the witness: "So you've described having been beaten on your first

7 full day, the 20th of September."

8 MS. SELLERS: I meant to say the 25th of September.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: The 25th. Okay. So that goes for the record. You

10 can proceed now.

11 MS. SELLERS: Thank you.

12 Q. Mr. Radic, you stated that you were principally beaten in the

13 evening hours, and particularly when there was a guard Cude who was not

14 present. When there were other guards, were the beatings more frequent

15 and more assured that they would take place?

16 A. Yes, because the guards changed every day. They took turns. I

17 singled out one of them. He was a policeman, because he wore a police

18 uniform. He would come to our cell and he wouldn't even let us go to the

19 lavatory. So I drew the conclusion that he was also one of the turnkeys.

20 I don't know the name of this policeman.

21 Q. And would there be a pattern that you would be taken out of the

22 cell and always taken to this room in the evening, and there you would be

23 beaten?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you sometimes beaten more than once or twice in the same

1 evening?

2 A. Well, sometimes they would barge into the cell, one or two of

3 them, beat us inside the cell, and then take us out into that room, where

4 they would continue beating us.

5 Q. Now, the people who beat you, did that usually include Kemo and

6 Mrki and other people that you've described for the Trial Chamber?

7 A. Nine times out of ten, Kemo and Mrki were there.

8 Q. Were there also people who came from outside of the SUP building?

9 Were they allowed in and permitted to beat you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, did you see, while you were in the room with the wooden

12 stove, did you see any of the other prisoners who were with you, Zoran

13 Bankovic, Nevenko, Veselin Sarac? Did you also see them being beaten?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Would you describe to the Trial Chamber the manner in which that

16 they were beaten. Were they kicked, hit, were instruments used, were

17 there wooden logs used? Please describe what you saw to the Trial

18 Chamber.

19 A. Everybody got the same treatment, the same beatings, kicking,

20 punching. That was the usual method. I was the only one, together with

21 Kukic, who was killed the second night, on whom wooden logs were used. In

22 the same room. I was there when it happened.

23 Q. I would now ask you: Would you remind the Trial Chamber what day,

24 or 24-hour period, I mean, was it in which you say that Kukic was killed?

25 A. I think the next day, in the evening, after we were captured, and

1 I'm pretty sure that is right because he was killed the same evening my

2 teeth were extracted by Kemo. I think it was the second night, yes,

3 because we were left alone the first night.

4 Q. So would it be your testimony, then, that Mr. Kukic was killed on

5 the 25th of September. That would be the night that your teeth had been

6 knocked out due to beating.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you know who killed Mr. Kukic?

9 A. I know because I was there when Kemo was doing it.

10 Q. Would you please tell the Trial Chamber what Kemo was doing

11 exactly that resulted in the death of Mr. Kukic.

12 A. That happened. We were in Sarac's office when he was returned to

13 his cell, and I was the next one to be taken out. I was beaten there, and

14 after a couple of minutes, they brought Kukic, and then they started

15 beating him. Mrki felled him to the ground, cursing at the same time,

16 mentioning, I believe, his Ustasha mother. Then Kemo took this piece of

17 wood, and as Kemo was lying on his back, he hit him on the chest, and he

18 was dead on the spot. There was a bottle of water sitting on the

19 windowsill, and Kemo poured it into his mouth, but it was too late. And

20 then he ordered me to haul him back to the cell. So I bent down to lift

21 the body. I couldn't manage, because I was hurting all over from the

22 beating. And then Kemo took that same piece of wood and hit me on the

23 back again, so that I fell right on top of Kukic.

24 Then they hoisted me up, threw me into the cell, and afterwards,

25 Zoran and Slavenko went out and brought Kukic's dead body back into the

1 cell.

2 Q. When Mr. Kukic was being beaten, about how close were you to

3 Mr. Kukic and to Kemo?

4 A. It's one metre's distance. It's in the same room.

5 Q. Now, you testified that you had been beaten, and can you just

6 confirm to the Trial Chamber that you were beaten before Mr. Kukic was

7 brought into the room.

8 A. Yes. Yes. I was taken out before Kukic.

9 Q. Would it be your testimony that even though you had been beaten by

10 Kemo prior to you witnessing the beating that killed Kukic, that you were

11 able to clearly see Kemo and Mrki beating Mr. Kukic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, you said that in the beating of Mr. Kukic, that they used

14 pieces of wood. Would you show the Trial Chamber more or less how long

15 and how broad the pieces of wood that they were using were.

16 A. Well, they were rather long, maybe 80 centimetres, maybe 1 metre,

17 short enough to be -- to fit into the stove.

18 Q. Now, you testified that you yourself had been hit previously by

19 Kemo, Mrki, using these pieces of wood. My question to you is: Did the

20 blows that you received inflict pain upon your body when they used the

21 wood?

22 A. Certainly.

23 Q. Did you see them hit Mr. Kukic using what could be tantamount to

24 the same type of force that they used when they hit you with the blocks of

25 wood?

1 A. Kemo was the only one who was hitting him, not Mrki, I believe.

2 Q. Was Kemo using the same type of force that was used against you

3 with the blocks of wood?

4 A. Even greater force.

5 Q. And was the cursing, the calling of Mr. Kukic "Ustasha," was this

6 occurring at the same time that they were administering these powerful

7 blows with the wood, their hands, or their feet?

8 A. Sorry. They didn't call Kukic Ustasha. On the contrary; Kukic

9 was cursing the Ustasha mothers of Mrki and the other man.

10 Q. My apologies. That's correct. And do you think that while he was

11 cursing them, that's when the blows were being administered to him? Is

12 that what you saw?

13 A. Yes. Yes, that's what I saw. Then Kemo took this split log,

14 probably angry at being cursed, and he hit him so hard that he killed him.

15 Q. So is it your opinion that Kukic died immediately after this blow

16 that Kemo administered?

17 A. It took a couple of seconds, because I saw it. I was there.

18 Q. You've testified that the now body of Mr. Kukic was taken back to

19 the cell. Did the body remain in the cell with you and now the four

20 remaining prisoners that evening?

21 A. Yes. It remained there until the morning.

22 Q. The other prisoners who were in the room now - Mr. Nevenko, Zoran

23 Bankovic and Veselin Sarac - had they been beaten that evening also?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And were they also beaten in the room with the wooden stove?

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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And to your knowledge, were they beaten by Kemo and by Mrki and

3 whoever else had been in the room?

4 A. I don't know. I wasn't there with them. I don't know who beat

5 them. It's most probable that Kemo was present, judging by their stories.

6 Q. Now, the following morning, did Kemo come to the cell where the

7 body of Kukic was laying?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did he inquire about Kukic?

10 A. Yes. He asked what had happened to him, as if he didn't know. And

11 I believe some of -- one of us answered that it was a heart attack,

12 although we all knew perfectly well what had happened. However, fearing

13 for our own lives, we did not want to say what actually happened, thinking

14 that maybe the next evening the same might happen to us. We didn't want

15 to say that Kemo had killed him.

16 Q. I take it that Mr. Kukic showed no signs of life after he left the

17 room with the wooden stove and no signs of life throughout the rest of

18 that night while he was in your cell. Is that correct?

19 A. Yeah.

20 Q. Was the body of Mr. Kukic removed from the cell sometime during

21 that day?

22 A. Right.

23 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber who removed the body of Mr. Kukic

24 from the cell.

25 A. Kemo came. It could have been around 10.00 a.m. I could be off

1 by 30 minutes. Anyway, he ordered us to take Kukic's body out. We lifted

2 the body. The truck was parked outside the SUP building. A yellow, big

3 truck, FAP-type. So we put the body on the truck and were escorted back

4 to our cell.

5 Then Kemo came again and took Veselin Sarac away. We didn't know

6 where. All we knew was that he didn't come back for another two hours,

7 and he left on the same truck that took Kukic's body away.

8 Q. Now, when you testified that "we took the body out," that means

9 that you assisted in the removal of Mr. Kukic's body. Who else was with

10 you taking the body out of the cell?

11 A. Yes. Zoran, myself, and Sarac.

12 Q. And when you placed the body on the truck, was there a guard or

13 someone who was escorting you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was Kemo present when you placed the body on the truck?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When you returned to your cell, Kemo came back to take out Veselin

18 Sarac. Would you please tell the Trial Chamber: Where was Veselin Sarac

19 from originally?

20 A. I don't quite understand the question. What do you mean by where

21 was he from?

22 Q. Where did he live?

23 A. The village of Podravanje.

24 Q. When Veselin Sarac came back to the cell after two hours, after

25 having left with the body of Kukic, did he tell you where Mr. Kukic's body

1 was taken?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Would you tell the Trial Chamber what Mr. Sarac told you about the

4 disposal of Mr. Kukic's body.

5 A. It was taken to Podravanje, his home village, where the bauxite

6 ore was mined. A large pit remained from the mining, and it is now filled

7 with water. It is a water reservoir now. And it was already a reservoir

8 then. And when they reached the reservoir -- I forgot to mention that

9 Sarac was tied to those bars in the truck, probably to prevent escape.

10 And when the body was thrown, literally thrown, not taken out of the

11 truck, onto the ground, near the reservoir, Kemo shot at Kukic, so that

12 the Chetnik wouldn't rise. That's what he said.

13 Q. To your knowledge, has the body of Mr. Kukic ever been recovered

14 and given a proper burial?

15 A. No. I was home recently. Some team arrived, including his

16 family, to search the reservoir, and they searched and searched, but they

17 didn't find anything.

18 Q. Now, in your conversation with Veselin Sarac about being on the

19 truck and the disposal of Mr. Kukic's body, did he say whether there was

20 anyone else other than Kemo who was present in the truck?

21 A. Yes. There were another two men. The driver, plus another

22 person.

23 Q. Do you know whether the other persons were soldiers or wearing

24 military garb?

25 A. I don't know.

1 Q. Mr. Radic, I would like to resume and ask you a couple of

2 questions about your imprisonment at the SUP. After the death of

3 Mr. Kukic, did any other -- were any other prisoners placed in the cell

4 with you?

5 A. No.

6 Q. So did you remain in the cell with Zoran Bankovic, Veselin Sarac,

7 Nevenko?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And did the beatings, as you testified before, continue on a daily

10 basis?

11 A. Yes, except when Cude was around.

12 Q. About ten days into your imprisonment, did another prisoner arrive

13 at the SUP?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you recall the name of this other prisoner?

16 A. I know they called him the postman. He was from Fakovici. But I

17 can't remember his name.

18 Q. Do you remember more or less how old this person you refer to as

19 the postman was, at that time, in 1992?

20 A. I think quite old, might have been around 60 years of age.

21 Q. Do you remember or could you describe for the Trial Chamber

22 whether he was a tall person, a small person, whether he was a large

23 person?

24 A. No. He was small, small.

25 Q. Now, do you know whether, while he was imprisoned at the SUP with

1 you in that cell, do you know whether he was taken out and beaten, as the

2 other prisoners that you described were beaten?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And was he beaten on a regular basis, similar to yourself and the

5 other prisoners?

6 A. The same applied to everyone, more or less. Now, who was beaten

7 more, I can't say. I know about myself, how many times I was beaten, and

8 how. I don't know about the rest. We would be taken out one by one, so I

9 wasn't present when the other people were being beaten. Therefore, I

10 can't say how long they were beaten for and in what way exactly.

11 Q. During the day, were you able to see what the other prisoners in

12 your cell looked like, what their physical appearance would be?

13 A. Of course, they were black and blue and very tired, exhausted.

14 Nevenko could not even stand up.

15 Q. To your knowledge, did any of those prisoners, due to these

16 beatings, also have their teeth knocked out?

17 A. I only know about myself, but I think this was the case with

18 Veselin Sarac also. Excuse me.

19 Q. Do you know whether any of those prisoners would then have bruises

20 on their face or on other parts of their body?

21 A. On the face, yes. Veselin Sarac and Nevenko too, myself included,

22 with my teeth having been smashed or extracted. I had injuries on my gums

23 too.

24 Q. Now, you testified that when you came to the SUP building, that

25 some of your clothing had been removed during the truck ride. Would you

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1 please tell the Trial Chamber what clothes you were wearing during that

2 period of your imprisonment.

3 A. While I was in the cell, you mean?

4 Q. Yes, I do.

5 A. I was only wearing my shorts. That was all. Cude brought me a

6 blanket, a small pillow. So I used that to keep warm, and that's how I

7 remained. That blanket was the only thing I had until I was eventually

8 exchanged.

9 Q. So did you see your fellow inmates now progressively becoming

10 physically weaker during your stay and looking physically worse during

11 your stay in the prison?

12 A. Of course. Zoran was a little younger. He was 18 at the time.

13 He was a little more resistant than the rest of us, probably. And the

14 rest of us, Veselin and Nevenko, were in a very poor state. I think I was

15 coping a little better than they were. At least I was able to stand up.

16 But my brain was practically numb. I couldn't remember anything. I

17 couldn't even think straight.

18 Q. Now, you've testified that you were able to stand up. Would you

19 please tell the Trial Chamber what the other inmates were able to do,

20 given their physical condition in terms of positioning themselves within

21 this cell.

22 A. They would just sit down and lean against the wall, like that, the

23 whole time. Sometimes, if they were able, they would try to stand up for

24 a while, and then they would sit down again. There was no room to lie

25 down. There was too little space for that.

1 Q. You testified earlier about being beat as you were on your way to

2 the toilets.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When you went to the toilet, do you know who it was who was

5 beating you, what type of people?

6 A. I'm not sure. Mostly there would be people in civilian clothing

7 there, two or three persons. My conclusion was that they were most

8 probably locals. Whenever they took any one of us out of the cell to take

9 us to the lavatory, they were just there in the corridor and they would

10 start beating us with whatever was at hand. Nevenko was probably beaten

11 more outside in the corridor, because he was the one who asked to go to

12 the lavatory the most. He was probably beaten more outside in the

13 corridor than inside the room in which we were being kept.

14 Q. As a result of these beatings on the way to the lavatory, did you

15 attempt or did you try to go to the lavatory as less frequently as

16 possible?

17 A. Yes. That was the case with me. I would not ask to go to the

18 lavatory for two or three days at a time.

19 Q. Now, where was the lavatory located in the SUP building, the one

20 that you've described?

21 A. The lavatory was contiguous to the cell. Once outside in the

22 hallway, it was the first door on the left, next to the cell.

23 Q. Were you ever asked to clean the lavatory?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And what did cleaning the lavatory entail?

1 A. There was no running water to flush the toilet. Therefore, Sarac

2 and Veselin in particular were forced to gather it up with their bare

3 hands. I only had to do it once, because I didn't go to the lavatory that

4 often.

5 Q. After cleaning the toilets out with their bare hands, were they

6 able to wash their hands?

7 A. No. They would just wipe them on their own clothes.

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Radic. I would now like to ask you some other

9 questions concerning your stay at the SUP prison.

10 Did there come a time period when someone, to your knowledge,

11 named Naser Oric, came to --

12 MR. JONES: I'm sorry, but, Your Honour, I made it very clear at

13 the outset that when it came to the detention charges, that if we really

14 insist that the Prosecution not ask --

15 MS. SELLERS: I'll rephrase the question.

16 MR. JONES: This witness knows this is the trial of Naser Oric.

17 She knows perfectly well how to ask a question, "Did there come a time

18 when a person came to the cell." She is providing --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Point taken, Mr. Jones, and I think --

20 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

22 MS. SELLERS: I will rephrase that question.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think it's the case of rephrasing it anyway.

24 MS. SELLERS:

25 Q. Mr. Radic, did there come a time period when someone came to the

1 cell and introduced themselves as --

2 MR. JONES: The question should be did a person ever come --

3 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me. I think counsel does not have to ask a

4 question for me, particularly one that I haven't finished.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Let her finish the question, please, Mr. Jones.

6 Yes, Ms. Sellers.

7 MS. SELLERS:

8 Q. My question would have been: Would there -- would there come a

9 time when someone came to the cell and presented themselves as someone who

10 was in charge of the SUP or the prison or who had some type of power

11 within that building?

12 MR. JONES: I object to that question. It's completely leading.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: On what grounds now? It's a perfectly legitimate

14 question.

15 MR. JONES: The question should really be: Did anyone else ever

16 come to the cell, did they ever say anything, what did they say. There

17 are perfectly proper non-leading questions which can be put to elicit --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: She is also perfectly entitled to ask whether at any

19 time anyone who appeared to be in command or a person in authority ever

20 visited the cell or the building, whatever.

21 MR. JONES: This is a way of getting evidence with a completely

22 leading question, whereas there's a --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not a leading question. I mean it's

24 distinguishing one person or one type of person from another.

25 Yes, Ms. Sellers. I think it's the case of trying to combine what

1 Mr. Jones has suggested and your question which I still consider to be

2 perfectly legitimate. But I think it's the case also of putting the

3 question again, because in the meantime there has been a lapse of time.

4 MS. SELLERS: Certainly.

5 Q. Did anyone, Mr. Radic, come to your cell and introduce themselves

6 as someone who had power or was in charge of the prison?

7 A. No, no one really introduced themselves. But Mr. Naser used to

8 come. He would only introduce himself, saying: My name is Naser Oric, in

9 case you didn't know. But he never really introduced himself as being

10 commander. He would come in uniform, with the lilies, camouflage uniform,

11 but he did not introduce himself, saying that he was the commander.

12 Q. Thank you. Did other prisoners or did anyone else who was in the

13 SUP building ever tell you that Naser Oric was the commander or the person

14 in charge?

15 A. No, no one. Just Veselin Sarac, who knew Mr. Naser before the

16 war, I believe. He told us later that he was the man. We didn't hear

17 anything from anyone else.

18 Q. Now, during your stay at the prison, how many times did you see

19 this person who called himself Naser Oric?

20 A. Three times.

21 Q. Would you tell the Trial Chamber: What was the occasion of the

22 first time that you saw the person who called himself Naser Oric?

23 A. I can't remember exactly, but it was several days after our

24 capture. That was the first time, when this gentleman introduced himself

25 as Naser Oric. And he asked us whether anyone had been touching us or

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1 beating us and what had happened to Kukic. We replied that no one was

2 beating us, that Kukic had suffered a stroke. I've told you already why

3 we were in no position to say what had happened. It was for reasons of

4 our personal safety.

5 The next time, the same gentleman came who had previously

6 introduced himself as Naser Oric. He stood outside the cell with the

7 bars, of course. He brought some meat and a knife, which he offered us to

8 eat. The other people took some meat, but I couldn't, because my gums had

9 been torn up and I had wounds inside my mouth. And he asked me why I

10 refused to have any meat. He said: You're afraid of getting poisoned.

11 Look at me. I'll have a piece too. And then he took some meat. I said

12 that I couldn't because I'd caught a cold. There was a window without a

13 glass pane in place. That was the second time.

14 And the third time I saw Mr. Naser was the last night before we

15 were exchanged.

16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Radic. I'd like to go back to that first time that

17 you saw the person who called himself Naser Oric. And on that first time,

18 had you already, you and the other prisoners who were there, had you

19 already been beaten in the manner which you testified about previously,

20 with bats or kicked or in any way punched?

21 A. [No interpretation] Da.

22 Q. And the first time Mr. Oric, the person who called himself

23 Mr. Oric was there, did some of the inmates, Mr. Veselin Sarac or

24 Mr. Zoran Bankovic, yourself, did you already have bruises or cuts or

25 possibly signs of injury or maltreatment?

1 A. I don't remember about injuries, but we were completely worn out.

2 As for myself, you could see that I had been bleeding from the teeth that

3 had been smashed. There was curdled blood on my chin. Nevenko was

4 seated, because he couldn't even stand up. But there were know visible

5 injuries. They would beat us from the waist up, on the chest, on the

6 back, that sort of thing. They hardly ever hit us or punched us on the

7 face, in order to cause an injury that would have been visible.

8 Q. Now, this person who you said described himself as Mr. Oric, he

9 specifically asked about Mr. Kukic. Is that the Kukic you previously

10 testified about who was killed and then whose body was disposed of?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. On the second time that the person who identified himself as Naser

13 Oric, between the first time and the second time, would it be your

14 testimony that the beatings had continued, the ones that you described

15 previously in the room with the stove?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And for the sake of the record: The physical appearance and the

18 physical state of health of the inmates had deteriorated between the first

19 time Mr. Oric came to see you and the second time that Mr. Oric came to

20 see you; would that be true?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, on the third occasion that this person who identified himself

23 as Naser Oric was in your presence, was that at the cell or was that in

24 another part of the SUP building?

25 A. No. The third time Mr. Oric did not introduce himself, because we

1 knew who he was. It was in that room where the firewood was kept. They

2 summoned all of us into that room, and we all left the cell together.

3 Inside that room, there was Mr. Naser Oric. As far as I remember, and I

4 think my memory still serves me well, I think Kemo and Mrki were also

5 there. I believe that's how it was.

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Radic. I would now like to ask you, and I think I

7 have previously, but once again, you remember giving a statement to the

8 investigators from the Office of the Prosecutor in May 2000; isn't that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And when you gave that statement, did you make a drawing of what

12 the SUP building floor, the floor where the cell was, did you make a

13 drawing of that for the investigator?

14 A. You mean of the building in which we were being kept, the cell,

15 and those rooms that I mentioned? Is that what you have in mind? Or the

16 entire building?

17 Q. No. Just -- well, the building where -- the floor where your cell

18 was and the different rooms that we have been discussing?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And did you draw the room where the wooden stove was on that

21 design?

22 A. Yes.

23 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I would like to ask the usher to hand

24 out copies of the statement with the attached design that Mr. Radic is

25 referring to. I've been informed that the B/C/S is attached to the

1 statement, and I would like to draw your attention to the design,

2 hand-drawn design, which is at the end. It is currently on Sanction, and

3 the ERN page number is 02030476.

4 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, did you make this design with the assistance of

5 the interpreter and the investigator who took the statement from you in

6 May 2000?

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, please, could we have it also on the ELMO,

9 also because there are going to be some obvious questions on this sketch

10 here, especially since part of it is in English, part of it is in -- and I

11 want to know also whose handwriting this is, and so on and so forth. So

12 you can lead the --

13 MS. SELLERS: Fine.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Because I mean these are obvious questions that

15 arise, and you can go straight to the head.

16 MS. SELLERS:

17 Q. Mr. Radic, you see the sketch before you. Would you please tell

18 the Trial Chamber: Did the interpreter and the investigator assist you in

19 drawing this sketch during the taking of your statement in May 2000?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, the writing that is in English on this design, is that

22 writing that was done by someone other than you?

23 A. I just signed this. You can see my signature here.

24 Q. Right. So is the writing that is in B/C/S also writing that was

25 done by someone other than you?

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's make it clear.

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Who -- you -- what was your part? Did you draw the

4 sketch, in the first place?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was with this lady - I don't know

6 what her name is - in Srebrenica, at the SUP building. We used a piece of

7 perfectly plain paper. I drew this on that piece of paper and I gave it

8 to this lady. And probably this lady or the interpreter back at the SUP

9 building in Milici, once we had returned, drew this and wrote things down

10 in English. They saw me again the next day. I spent three days with them

11 and I signed the drawing. I saw that it was identical to the one I had

12 made, so I signed it.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So this is not the original one that you drew up?

14 In other words, the description of the rooms, the lines. So in other

15 words, if I read you well, what happened was that when you were on the

16 site, you drew up a diagram showing where the rooms were, without writing

17 anything on that diagram except the shapes and the position of the rooms;

18 is that correct?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, when we were in

20 Milici, this lady had a PC in front of her. I explained what the building

21 looked like inside and where the rooms were. Probably she entered this

22 information into the computer she was using, and once we were done with

23 the interview, we drove back to Srebrenica. Once we arrived, I took a

24 piece of paper. I drew this and I asked the lady whether she agreed and

25 whether everything was all right. When we entered this room where the

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1 wood-burning stove used to be, I told her there was an opening in the wall

2 up there, and once she found that, I don't want to seem boastful, but she

3 congratulated me on my sincerity. Because everything I had told her in

4 Milici was exactly the same as she found when we arrived there. And the

5 drawing is a hundred per cent accurate.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but did you do this drawing or did someone else

7 draw it on the basis of what you had described?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. It wasn't me.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So you just signed it?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just signed it, yes. When the

11 drawing was finished, I signed it, because I realised that it was

12 identical to the one that I had made.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically, when, for example, in the top left

14 corner you have the shape of a room and the words, "nacelnikova soba,"

15 those words were not written by you; they were written by someone else.

16 Is that correct?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is the chief's room.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but they were written down -- the words were

19 written down by someone else, not by you?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just said it was the chief's room,

21 and I did mark it on my drawing. The distribution of the rooms was the

22 same. Chief's office, the lavatory, and the room where a prisoner from

23 Zenica, as far as I remember, was being kept. I don't think we've got

24 that far yet.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So basically, all the information that

1 we find on this drawing is based on what you had indicated to this lady?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: But is any of the writings, except for your

4 signature there that we can see, is anything of -- any of the writing that

5 you see on this piece of paper yours?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's all mine. It's just that this

7 was copied from the original drawing, and someone added the writing in

8 English on this drawing, which wasn't me, because I can't read or write

9 English.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Do we have the original that he drew?

11 MS. SELLERS: No, Your Honours. We have this. It was attached.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Eser.

13 JUDGE ESER: Just to make sure. The lines, the vertical and

14 horizontal lines are made by you?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: No, not even. Not on this.

16 JUDGE ESER: I had the impression. No. I had the impression that

17 he did these lines and somebody else would make the inscription. My

18 question is: The lines, the vertical and the horizontal lines has been

19 done by you or has been done by somebody else?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: On this paper, on this paper.

21 JUDGE ESER: On this paper.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, these lines - I have

23 to say it again - were drawn -- this same drawing was on a plain piece of

24 paper and it was just transferred, in a manner of speaking, from one piece

25 of paper to another. The lines were the same that I had originally drawn.

1 So the copy is identical.

2 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me, Your Honour. Might I say it was scanned.

3 His drawing was eventually scanned. I think that's what ...

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. I'm not in a position to confirm

5 that, Ms. Sellers. And he -- I don't think he's in a position to confirm

6 it either. All right. Go ahead. I mean, so we don't have the original.

7 No. All right.

8 MS. SELLERS:

9 Q. Mr. Radic, is this sketch that we see here an accurate

10 representation of that first floor of the SUP building, or the ground

11 floor, where you were imprisoned in September 1992?

12 A. I assert that it is 100 per cent accurate.

13 Q. Fine. I would just like to ask you a couple of questions about

14 that. If you would look at -- excuse me. I'd like the usher to be able

15 to then just assist Mr. Radic with the ELMO.

16 Mr. Radic, is that your signature in the lower left-hand corner of

17 the page?

18 A. Yes. Yes, it is.

19 Q. Now, if you were to move over slightly to the right, does that

20 first square represent how you came into the SUP building with the other

21 prisoners on the 24th of September, the place where you came in? Where

22 would the door of the SUP building be?

23 A. [Indicates].

24 Q. Would you now, just using your hand, walk us to the door from

25 where your cell was.

1 A. This is the entrance, on this side. Then comes the hallway. We

2 would go to the right. And this is our cell. This is the lavatory.

3 Q. Now, would you go back to the room you say was the cell. I notice

4 that it seems to be divided into two pieces.

5 A. This is it.

6 Q. Could you please explain: What is that first section of the room

7 prior to where you see what appears to be a line and several crosses

8 drawn?

9 A. This was the main door. This was a little hallway, or anteroom.

10 And then you came to an iron door. So the door leads to a small anteroom,

11 and from the anteroom, there is an entrance to the cell.

12 Q. When you testified that there were bars in front of your cell,

13 would you just point the Trial Chamber to show where were the bars in

14 front of your cell.

15 A. Here. Here, these little lines are the bars.

16 Q. Right. Now, if you would go back out into the hallway, would you

17 show the Trial Chamber where is the room where you've testified that Kemo,

18 Mrki, and others administered beatings and the room in which Mr. Kukic was

19 killed.

20 A. This is the room. So from the cell, you enter the hallway, and

21 then you turn left and enter this room. And from that room, you can go

22 through a door to the adjacent room.

23 Q. Now, where --

24 A. They are next to the main street.

25 Q. Yes. Where in that room, since there is a door with an adjacent

1 room, in which of the rooms were the beatings administered?

2 A. In the first one, here. And I don't know what the adjacent room

3 held, because I never entered.

4 Q. And is it in that room, that first room that you've shown us where

5 Mr. Kukic was killed?

6 A. Yes. Yes, this room.

7 Q. Now, around that room where the wooden stove is, is there a series

8 of windows?

9 A. Yes. On the side of the street. This was the desk. The window

10 was large.

11 Q. Were there any windows that were internally inside the building

12 that you could look out from the room with the wooden stove into a

13 different part of the building?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Let me rephrase that. Were there any windows around that room

16 that you could see from the corridor of the building?

17 A. Yes. There was a small opening in the wall. Just when you enter

18 from the hallway, from the main entrance, on the right. It must have been

19 an admission room for the police, and it was there that the small window

20 was located.

21 Q. Would you show the Trial Chamber the room where the interrogations

22 that you've testified about previously took place.

23 A. It's this one, the chief's office. That's the door.

24 Q. And could you please show the Trial Chamber where the stairwell

25 was located.

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1 A. As you enter this hallway, you can go to the left or to the right,

2 and you use the stairs to go up. On the right-hand side, the stairs led

3 upstairs; and on the left-hand side was another flight of stairs leading

4 to the basement. So the stairs that led up were rather narrow and were on

5 the right-hand side of the stairwell.

6 Q. Now, moving to the right from the stairs, there appears to be

7 another room. Do you know what this room was used for, if anything?

8 A. When we arrived, I know there was a man held in this room, also a

9 prisoner, from Zenica. He was alone in this room. And perhaps two or

10 three days later, I heard he had been exchanged. So that from then on, we

11 didn't hear or see anyone else in that room.

12 Q. Did you ever see this other prisoner from Zenica while you were

13 imprisoned at the SUP building?

14 A. No.

15 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I'd like to move this into evidence.

16 I'd ask the registrar, could we have a number, please.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Just the sketch, you mean?

18 MS. SELLERS: Just the sketch, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Registrar, please.

20 MR. JONES:

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be P467.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's P467. Thank you.

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me, Your Honours. Might I ask, will this

25 segment take us to 12.30 or are you intending --

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, to 12.30. But please, as we usually do, feel

2 free to ask to stop whenever you like, whenever it's convenient. If you

3 want to stop now, we'll stop now. I mean, to us it doesn't make a

4 difference.

5 MS. SELLERS: I'd-like to just go to the next segment.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: It's okay. And then just regulate yourself, just

7 see when you would like to stop. Thank you.

8 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, at this time I would ask you to look

9 at Sanctions for a small video clip. There is no sound that is attached

10 to this video clip.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Yes. I can see from here the

12 reflection on the glass that he has it in front of him as well. Would you

13 tell, please, the witness what you are going to require from him before we

14 start rolling on.

15 MS. SELLERS: Certainly.

16 Mr. Radic, I would like to ask you to look at this video clip that

17 you're seeing, and I will stop it and ask you to tell the Trial Chamber

18 what do you recognise, if anything, in this video clip.

19 And I would say for the Trial Chamber's information and Defence

20 counsel that this is P446.

21 All right. Can we begin, please.

22 [Videotape played]

23 MS. SELLERS:

24 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, do you recognise this building?

25 A. Yes. That's the building where we were, the main entrance.

1 Q. Is that the building that you've testified was the SUP building,

2 then, where the imprisonment took place, the first one you saw, I'm sorry,

3 not this one that's currently on the screen.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Mr. Radic, do you recognise what this picture, this image, is

6 showing?

7 A. Yes. This is the door from the hallway.

8 Q. Mr. Radic, please tell the Trial Chamber what this image is

9 showing.

10 A. That's the flight of stairs leading up. That's the small window

11 in that room with the wood-burning stove.

12 Q. Can you see from the corridor, therefore, into the room with the

13 wood-burning stove, if you were standing in the corridor, looking in that

14 direction?

15 A. I don't know whether you could see the stove itself, but you could

16 see most of the room, because the stove was in the left corner. That's

17 the other, adjacent room that you could enter from this room.

18 Q. Would you please tell the Trial Chamber what is the image that's

19 before us now.

20 A. Now you see a number of rooms. The first one on the left held

21 this man from Zenica. The second one was the cell where we were detained.

22 And the last, third door on the left, at the end of the corridor, was the

23 lavatory. And those here doors, the first one on the right is the room

24 where we were beaten, the room with the wood-burning stove. I don't know

25 what this other room was. I never entered. This is the window. This is

1 the cell that we were held in. You see there's a door on the left. There

2 is a window in the corner, a very small window.

3 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, would you please tell the Trial Chamber where was

4 the guard positioned in relationship to the cell?

5 A. You mean when he would come in to take us out of the cell?

6 Q. When he would come in or when he was guarding you.

7 A. The guard was not with us in the cell. He was there in the room

8 where we were beaten.

9 Q. So where was -- my question is more precisely: When the guard

10 would come to get you, where would he have to come to? To this place with

11 the bars on the door or to the first door with steel?

12 A. From the main hallway, there is a door that leads into an

13 anteroom. So he comes into that anteroom, up to the bars, and then he

14 opens the door, which is also part of the bars, and lets us out, either to

15 the lavatory or to take us out to the beating room, and then he would lock

16 up again after taking out one person; if necessary, he would come back and

17 take another one out; the same procedure.

18 Q. Now, I notice that there is a radiator in the back of -- there

19 appears to be a radiator in the back of the room with the cell. Now, was

20 that radiator emitting heat during the time period of your imprisonment?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Were you rather cold as opposed to being at a good temperature

23 while you were in this cell?

24 A. What do you think? The window had no pane. It was constantly

25 opened. I was almost naked, wearing only shorts, a thin blanket.

1 Q. So would it be your testimony, trying to explain to the Trial

2 Chamber, that you suffered from coldness, from low temperatures, while in

3 the cell?

4 A. It was cold, of course.

5 MS. SELLERS: We can continue now.

6 [Videotape played]

7 MS. SELLERS:

8 Q. Is this the room that you've testified about where the toilet was?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, was the room in better condition during the time

11 period of your imprisonment than we're seeing it now on our screens?

12 A. No, it wasn't.

13 Q. Mr. Radic, is this the hallway or the corridor that you've

14 testified where you would be beaten on the way to the room with the wooden

15 stove?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And is this the same corridor where you would be beaten on the way

18 to the toilet?

19 A. Could you just let me see this image again? I'm not quite clear

20 on this.

21 Q. Is this the same corridor that led to the bathroom when turning to

22 the left, as it led to the room with the burning stove when one turned

23 from the right from your cell?

24 A. This hallway -- I don't think so.

25 Q. Mr. Radic, was that the corridor that led to the office where the

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1 police chief was? Not the one you're looking at now. I'm sorry. The

2 previous one that we showed you.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you are confusing him, Ms. Sellers.

4 MS. SELLERS: Do you mind if I just move on, Your Honour? Fine.

5 Thank you. I'll just continue.

6 [Videotape played]

7 MS. SELLERS:

8 Q. Mr. Radic, do you recognise the image that we see before us now?

9 A. I think that's the hallway leading to the lavatory. That's the

10 entrance. Yes, that's the main entrance, here.

11 MS. SELLERS: Thank you. Your Honours, I would like to ask -- I

12 believe this has already been moved into evidence as a previous --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: This has.

14 MS. SELLERS: -- Prosecution exhibit.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: We've seen it before already.

16 MS. SELLERS: Yes. Your Honour, I'll be going into a different

17 area. I think this would be an appropriate time now to take that break.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll have a 25-minute break starting from now.

19 Thank you.

20 --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.

22 MR. JONES: Your Honour, may I just --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment are because your client hasn't got his

24 earphones.

25 MR. JONES: If I may just make one observation about timing. This

1 is obviously a very important witness, the sort of witness which we would

2 normally need about as much as time of the Prosecution has. Generally

3 throughout this trial we've been shorter and this is one of the occasions

4 when we'll need about as much time. If the Prosecution can finish today,

5 then there's no problem. Obviously we'd have tomorrow and then there'd

6 time for re-examination. My concern is that my learned friend indicated

7 earlier that she might run over tomorrow. If it's a matter of 15 minutes

8 or so then that's fine, but I certainly couldn't cross-examine this

9 witness in less than three hours, given all the evidence that's been

10 given. This witness has been here once already. It may be onerous for

11 him to stay for the weekend. And so I just raise that matter now because

12 I don't want to be under pressure to finish in less than three hours

13 tomorrow.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: You will not be under pressure, Mr. Jones. We'll

15 certainly not put you under pressure for sure.

16 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: The agreement is as it is. Ms. Sellers, I mean, I

18 don't know what your position is. I will not put you under pressure

19 either. But if you can finish with this witness today it's much better.

20 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour. I will tell Defence counsel

21 now and Your Honours, I think that I might have to run over with this

22 witness. I'd like to go as rapidly as possible. The question will be the

23 nature of the exhibits we're about to use have a time period attached to

24 them. And I believe that that's evidence that the Trial Chamber and

25 Defence counsel should listen to. So if we do run over, meaning continue

1 the direct examination tomorrow, I would certainly hope to finish that

2 direct examination possibly in a half-hour to 45 minutes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but in the meantime, has the witness been

4 alerted to the possibility of having to stay the weekend over?

5 MS. SELLERS: The witness has not been alerted to that. I mean,

6 we did try -- we did intend to think that we could go just today with

7 Mr. Jones, the Defence counsel, going tomorrow.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: As I said, I mean, with important witnesses, we

9 don't like to impose any time-limit. I mean, if it's necessary, we do,

10 but in this particular case, we would impose it on you, not on Mr. Jones

11 at this point in time.

12 MS. SELLERS: I would regret any further keeping of this witness,

13 who has been extremely generous with his time.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's move, Ms. Sellers, and try and see if you

15 can finish as quickly as possible. But Mr. Jones will not have less time

16 than he requires, for sure.

17 MS. SELLERS: I understand, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Which basically means that the witness will need --

19 may need to stay here. So let's move.

20 MS. SELLERS: Okay.

21 Q. Mr. Radic, I would like now to ask you a couple of questions about

22 Mr. Veselin Sarac, who you've testified was imprisoned with you. Did

23 Veselin Sarac ever, while in the prison, at times leave the cell for

24 purposes other than being beaten or going to the toilet, to your

25 knowledge?

1 A. According to my information, Veselin Sarac would leave the cell

2 when Kukic was being taken away. I think I did say that. That was the

3 one time. And I think there was another time he left the cell, but I

4 don't know exactly for how long or when. I found this out later, after we

5 had been exchanged. The second time he left the cell, he went to attend

6 some negotiations to arrange an exchange. He negotiated with Ratko

7 Bjelanovic, who was then, I think, under Naser Oric, and with Cakura.

8 That's all I know about Veselin Sarac leaving the cell, twice, to my

9 knowledge.

10 Q. Now, you just testified that a Mr. Ratko Bjelanovic was under a

11 Mr. Naser Oric. Do you mean that he was working for Naser Oric or would

12 you like to change that testimony?

13 A. Mr. Rade Bjelanovic, he is a Serb, and I believe, or rather, I'm

14 positive that he negotiated to arrange our exchange. He negotiated with

15 Mr. Oric and with Cakura. Veselin told me later, after the exchange, he

16 told me when he returned to the cell, for whatever reason, that he had

17 gone there too to talk to Bjelanovic. That's all I know about Sarac and

18 this time when he was absent from the cell.

19 MS. SELLERS: I would like Your Honours now, and the registry, to

20 please, through Sanction, to listen to an audiotape.

21 MR. JONES: We object to this tape, the audiotape.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: This is the famous one which we have seen already?

23 MS. SELLERS: No, Your Honour. This is a different tape. This is

24 an audiotape that is only -- one has to listen with the transcript.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I see. I know the one. Yeah, yeah. Okay, okay,

1 okay. I'm sorry.

2 MR. JONES: We've objected because we've requested among other

3 documents and exhibits to inspect the original of this audiotape and we've

4 never been provided with the original. I'd be interested to know firstly

5 whether this is the original tape that the Prosecution has in its

6 possession. And there are other reasons why we object to it, which I can

7 go into, but perhaps shouldn't in front of the witness.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Not in front of the witness, yeah. Is this the

9 original or is this a copy of it?

10 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, this is the tape that was given to us.

11 It's the tape that we have, and we've provided copies, I believe, to the

12 Defence. I'm not in a position to say as to whether it was the original

13 tape that was made from that.

14 MR. JONES: Your Honour, we have the IIF form where it states it

15 was not an original and I won't go into the rest of it. So I think the

16 Prosecution knows that they don't have the original.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed anyway. We've put on record your

18 objection, Mr. Jones, and then we'll see later on.

19 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 MS. SELLERS: I would now ask --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Which number has it been given already?

24 MS. SELLERS: It's P97, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: P97. So it is the one, yes. It is the one.

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1 MS. SELLERS: While there is some simultaneous translation of this

2 audiotape, we also do have written transcripts. If that can be handed out

3 at this time.

4 MR. JONES: May I also just say for the transcript, we object

5 firstly because it's -- the name Naser Oric or NO is placed there, when in

6 fact there's no indication that it's Naser Oric. There's no

7 authentication of voices.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't need to repeat that.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't need to repeat that or stress the point,

11 because it's quite obvious.

12 MR. JONES: Yes. We can go into these objections perhaps on

13 another occasion.

14 MS. SELLERS: What Your Honours are receiving now are a slightly

15 revised translation.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, so I see. It's revised. Well, what we have is

17 P97.1 ^yes, which was exhibited earlier on in the course of this trial.

18 And so this is a revision of that text?

19 MS. SELLERS: Yes. Your Honours, I would invite you to look at

20 the revision. At the same time, we will move to have this revised text --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move.

22 MS. SELLERS: It is quite similar to the other one. We've picked

23 with a couple of points that could have been clarified.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, may I correct the number. It's P97E

25 of the initially provided transcript and not .1E.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: 97E No, I wouldn't substitute it. I would leave

2 what we have. Have this as well and give it -- and this would be 97.1E,

3 E, 1, and then E and another 1, or .add, add 1. I mean, I don't know.

4 .1E? And this will be P97, Mr. Jones and Ms. Sellers, P97.1E. All right?

5 Let's move.

6 MS. SELLERS: Thank you.

7 Could I ask that the tape be run.

8 Mr. Radic, would you please listen to this audiotape. There's

9 simultaneous translation in English below the screen. I would just ask

10 that you listen to the tape.

11 [Audiotape played]

12 INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

13 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I would state that that's the end.

14 I'm sorry. I would state that this is the end of the first segment of the

15 tape. My suggestion would be, should we continue with the second segment,

16 which is approximately 15 minutes long so that this exhibit is finished

17 today and then I would have to proceed with the witness tomorrow in terms

18 of questioning him about this exhibit, one or two other matters, and then

19 we do have a video that we'll show tomorrow.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I think of the -- from what I see here, you

21 may be right. It may take us another 15 minutes to finish the second

22 segment. I don't know, because obviously I haven't heard it before. But

23 I would suggest that we proceed, we finish with the tape.

24 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And then we'll proceed with the questions tomorrow.

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1 [Audiotape played]

2 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, that's the end of the audiotape.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

4 MS. SELLERS: I'm sorry. Just to say that my microphone wasn't

5 on. That was the end of the audiotape exhibit.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it that's all for today.

7 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: We will resume tomorrow morning at 9.00. Mr. Radic,

9 we will continue tomorrow morning at 9.00 and you will be asked questions

10 on this recording that you've just listened to. Okay?

11 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I just, I -- I think it's fair to the

12 witness to caution him that the Prosecution--

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

14 MR. JONES: -- will certainly be more than half an hour tomorrow.

15 That means that I will almost certainly not be finished tomorrow.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, we told you already. I mean, you

17 know --

18 MR. JONES: Just for the witness.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: -- what the position is.

20 Mr. Radic, it's very probable that we don't finish with you

21 tomorrow. So if you need to inform your family that it could well be that

22 you'll be staying over the weekend, I think you better prepare them now.

23 Because I don't think we'll finish tomorrow. I'm sorry about that, but we

24 need to finish with your testimony.

25 The other thing is that it is important that between today and

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1 tomorrow, and even later, before you finish and until you finish your

2 testimony, you do not communicate with -- you do not talk with anyone on

3 the substance or on -- or on the things that you are testifying about,

4 neither with anyone from the Prosecution, nor anyone else.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have been complying with all this,

6 Your Honour, as far as my staying over the weekend is concerned, if I have

7 to, I will stay. I have a cold on top of everything and I could use some

8 rest. So it's all right. It's all right. I'll be back on Monday as

9 well.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We'll try and do our best. If we can

11 finish tomorrow, we'll try and finish tomorrow, but I don't promise you.

12 And in fact, the chances are that we don't. Okay. Thank you.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47

14 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday, the 14th day of

15 January 2005, at 9.00 a.m.

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