1 Friday, 18 March, 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.30 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, thank you Your Honour. Case number

7 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Good afternoon to you. Mr. Oric, can

9 you follow the proceedings -- can you follow the proceedings in a language

10 that you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour,

12 gentlemen. Yes, I can fully understand the proceedings in my mother

13 tongue. Thank you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, and good afternoon to you.

15 Appearances for the Prosecution.

16 MR. WUBBEN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. My name is Jan Wubben,

17 lead counsel for the Prosecution. Also good afternoon to the Defence

18 team. I am here together with Miss Patricia Sellers, my co-counsel, and

19 Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink, our case manager, and today as acting case

20 manager also Ms. Sanja Bokulic.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben, and good afternoon to you

22 and your team. Appearances for Naser Oric.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon Your Honours. My

24 name is Vasvija Vidovic, and together with Mr. John Jones we represent the

25 Defence of Mr. Naser Oric and with us are our legal assistant, Miss

1 Jasmina Cosic and Miss Adisa Mehic, as well as our case manager, Mr. Geoff

2 Roberts.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good afternoon to

4 you and your team. Any preliminaries? Yes, Mr. Wubben.

5 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honours. For the scheduling, yesterday I

6 contacted lead counsel, Madam Vidovic, with a view to the coming two

7 witnesses. We have four trial days and of course no counsel can give any

8 guarantee but we aim for, we try to handle each witness for one day,

9 meaning four trial days and two days per witness.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I can assure you, Mr. Wubben, having

11 read his prior statement here, that if you handed this witness to me, I

12 would finish him in half an hour. I can assure you.

13 So I thank you, of course, for undertaking to finish the two

14 witnesses in four days, but to be honest with you, I don't think that is

15 really a big deal.

16 Yes, any comments or remarks or preliminaries from your side?

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. No questions, but

18 when it comes to the witness that the Prosecution is presenting today, it

19 is an insider with very important knowledge, essential for our defence and

20 that is why I consider that we shall need five or six hours for the

21 cross-examination of that witness.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: It depends. Yes, Mr. Wubben.

23 MR. WUBBEN: In addition, you never know, Your Honour, what it

24 might end up. But anyhow we have also another submission to do. I will

25 leave that up to Ms. Patricia Sellers.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, all right. I am going to make it very clear

2 that I will only allow questions today, with this witness and the others

3 that will follow, that are relevant to the case.

4 I am not going to allow any more sittings in which you try to open

5 up the whole history of the events that took place in Bosnia during the

6 time. I mean, we have only got this accused here, a very limited number

7 of events, and I am going to stick to those.

8 Yes, is there a further point, issue, preliminary issue you would

9 like to raise?

10 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour, there is one other preliminary

11 issue. As to what you've just mentioned, we will certainly try our best

12 to finish this witness --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I am pretty sure you will.

14 MS. SELLERS: -- with all due haste. The Prosecution would like

15 to hand up to the Trial Chamber and to Defence today, these are pictures

16 that should accompany Dr. Stankovic's expert report. The reason we're

17 handing them up in compliance, actually, with the acceptance of his report

18 into evidence is that these are -- these are coloured photos and the

19 reason that you have black and white photos is that once we turn his

20 expert report over to the Registry, the Registry photocopies things and

21 therefore anything that was in colour becomes black and white. So what we

22 wanted to do was to hand these up as, as a matter of fact they would be

23 part of his expert report, but they're actually a replication of the

24 photos that you already have, they're just in colour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Is there any objection on your part?

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. None.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. The other thing we wanted to tell you is

3 this: That we will need to make some adjustments to today's timetable, or

4 schedule, in that we need to finish, because of a prior commitment of one

5 of the judges, we need to finish at 6.15, 6.30 at the latest. 6.15, I

6 mean to be on the safe side.

7 So I would suggest that we start, that we will have the shortest

8 possible break and that there will not be a second break. We will

9 continue until we finish. Of course, we will need to agree on how to do

10 this with the technical staff and the interpreters.

11 But let's start. Could you bring -- the witness does not have any

12 protective measures in place that I know of.

13 MS. SELLERS: No, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to Mr. Bogilovic.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Before we proceed I want to make sure that what I

20 will be saying and what will be said here in this courtroom in the English

21 language is being translated to you into your own language. For the time

22 being, are you receiving interpretation of what I am saying in your own

23 language?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: If at any time there are problems with

1 interpretation, please draw our attention straight away, because it is

2 important that you be able to follow every single word that is said here.

3 Okay.

4 You are here to give evidence in this case which the Prosecution

5 has instituted against Naser Oric. I am the presiding Judge. My name is

6 Carmel Agius and I come from the island of Malta. My right, I have Judge

7 Hans Henrik Brydensholt, who comes from Denmark, the Kingdom of Denmark;

8 and to my left I have Judge Albin Eser, who comes from Germany.

9 Before you start giving evidence, our Rules require that you enter

10 a solemn declaration. That's something similar and ultimately equivalent

11 also to an oath. A solemn declaration that, in the course of your

12 testimony, you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth, and nothing

13 but the truth.

14 The text of this solemn declaration is going to be handed to you

15 now by Mr. Usher. Please read it out loud and that will be your solemn

16 undertaking with this Tribunal.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19 WITNESS: BECIR BOGILOVIC

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please take a chair. You are going to

21 be asked a series of questions first by Ms. Sellers, whom I suppose you

22 have met already. She will then be followed by Madam Vidovic, who is

23 appearing for Naser Oric. Ms. Sellers.

24 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Examined by Ms. Sellers:

1 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Bogilovic.

2 A. Good afternoon.

3 Q. Would you please state your name, your full name for the record.

4 A. My name is Becir Bogilovic.

5 Q. Your Honours, due to commentary at the start of the session I

6 think I will try to lead the witness on areas.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Please go ahead. The initial part I don't

8 think are any problems there.

9 MS. SELLERS:

10 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, is it correct that you were born in Rogatica in

11 Bosnia in 1950?

12 A. It is correct that I was born on the 7th of January, 1950 in the

13 Godomilje village, Rogatica municipality.

14 Q. Is it also correct your ethnic background is that of Bosnian

15 Muslim?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, from December 1971 until June 1972, didn't you

18 attend the police academy in Makarska, Croatia?

19 A. Yes. I did. It was a course, a police course. For the police.

20 Q. Pardon me. After you finished, you completed your police courses,

21 did you receive employment as a police officer in Srebrenica?

22 A. Yes, I did, and before the course I spent three months working.

23 After I completed my course, I continued to work and worked for 20 years,

24 until September 1991.

25 Q. And is that your testimony, that you worked for 20 years as a

1 police officer in the Srebrenica municipality?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. During your 20 years in the police force, did you take statements

4 from victims, witnesses, or suspects in the normal course of your police

5 work?

6 A. Yes, I did all that. Everything provided for by the rules of

7 service in the public security system.

8 Q. Did you also, in the normal course of your police work, assist

9 police inspectors in submitting criminal complaints to the court system?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sellers, although you and I are familiar with

11 the term "police inspectors," I don't know if the same term has the same

12 connotation in Yugoslavia. So I honestly don't know how this is being

13 interpreted. I would suggest "his superiors" rather than "police

14 inspectors."

15 MS. SELLERS:

16 Q. Yes. Mr. Bogilovic, were police inspectors superior to you within

17 the chain of command of the police force?

18 A. Yes. They were senior and we were subordinated to the komandirs

19 or commanders.

20 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, did you also arrest persons and place them in

21 detention in the normal course of your police work?

22 A. Yes. We arrested persons on the basis of written orders and oral

23 orders, as well by a senior official or the court.

24 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, as a police officer were you permitted or

25 authorised to mistreat detained persons in your custody?

1 A. Of course not. We had to adhere to the rules of service governing

2 the public security service.

3 Q. Any police officer who mistreated a detainee, was he to be

4 reported to a superior for disciplinary actions?

5 A. Yes. Disciplinary measures would be taken once the senior

6 official was informed that anything like that had happened.

7 Q. And what type of disciplinary measures would be taken in the event

8 that a police officer had mistreated or harmed a detained person?

9 A. That depended on the offence. If it was a lighter offence, then a

10 fine would have to be made. If it was a more serious offence, or rather,

11 a crime, then it would be handed over to the law courts and a criminal

12 complaint would be filed.

13 Q. Was the last post that you held on the police force in Srebrenica

14 municipality that of a sector leader?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And as a sector leader, did you have responsibilities that

17 extended into locations other than the town of Srebrenica?

18 A. Well, I wouldn't like to -- I was sector leader for the sector

19 that I provided security for.

20 Q. And did that include locations such as Podravanja, Suceska and

21 that of Radosevici? Please pardon my pronunciation.

22 A. They are local communes, six in all, where I was the sector

23 leader.

24 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, when you started working in Srebrenica, did your

25 wife also move to Srebrenica with you and did you establish a family in

1 Srebrenica during that 20-year time period?

2 A. Yes, that's right. My wife came in 1972. The problem was with

3 our accommodation. We had to rent a flat privately and received an

4 apartment only later on.

5 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, now I would like to turn your attention to March,

6 April and May, 1992. Did there exist tensions at that time period between

7 Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Serbs that affected the work of police

8 stations or the work of political institutions in Srebrenica?

9 A. You mentioned the March, April and May 1992. At that time, I

10 would say that it was almost a situation of war already. Of conflict.

11 Q. Excuse me. Were residents in Srebrenica, both Muslim and Serbs,

12 fearful that there would be an outbreak of war at that time?

13 A. They were afraid before that, because on the 17th of April it was

14 decided to destroy a whole nation. An ethnic group.

15 Q. And as a result of what you have testified about, this decision,

16 they, having decided to destroy a whole nation, did residents, both Muslim

17 and Serbs, of Srebrenica leave the city?

18 A. Yes, they did. Everybody left the town of Srebrenica. 99 percent

19 left the town of Srebrenica, in fact.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Sellers, because I think one of his

21 statements needs to -- some clarification.

22 You were asked, sir, whether the residents in Srebrenica, both the

23 Muslims and the Serbs -- and I suppose also the Croats -- were fearful

24 that there would be an outbreak of war at the time. And you said: They

25 were afraid before that, because on the -- I heard you say 7th, but 17th

1 of April we have here, it was decided to destroy a whole nation. And then

2 you added, according to the transcript here, an ethnic group. What are

3 you referring --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter notes that the interpreters added

5 "ethnic group" as being nation.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It began before that because when

7 there was an attack on Bjeljina, Zvornik, the people saw that, watched

8 that and they became afraid, and all that was before the 17th of April.

9 The last talks with the Serbs were on the 17th of April and then

10 there was an extended period until the 10th of April when Alija Hasic

11 negotiated with them, and then Jokic Miodrag said, "There can be no more

12 negotiations, everything is ours."

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So you are actually telling us that on the 17th of

14 April, a decision was taken to, to cease all negotiations. Who took that

15 decision? Miodrag Jokic?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Miodrag Jokic. On that day, they --

17 the Arkan's men entered, as they were called, and I was in Bratunac at

18 that time. They entered the area, occupied everything, put their men on

19 duty and then Alija Hasic went to the Fontana Hotel in Bratunac once again

20 and Miodrag said that to them, "There can be no more negotiations,

21 everything is finished."

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And who was Miodrag Jokic? It is not that I don't

23 know, but I am not the only one hearing this case. Who was Miodrag Jokic?

24 Whom did he represent?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Miodrag represented the Serb

1 Democratic Party.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Was he in the government?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think he was. Goran was the

4 president, and he was in the government too, yes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, yes. I think that cleared the scenario

6 for us. Yes, Ms. Sellers, please.

7 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honours.

8 Q. So Mr. Bogilovic, as a result of the events that took place on the

9 17th of April, did both Bosnian Muslims and Serbs start to leave the town,

10 resulting in a diminishing of the population of about 99 percent,

11 according to your testimony?

12 A. Yes, that's right. 80% had already left the town and the rest

13 left on the 17th. The others left on the 17th and early in the morning of

14 the 18th.

15 Q. Did you also take your family away from Srebrenica?

16 A. Yes, I did take my family away on the 10th of April, 1992, in

17 fact.

18 Q. Where did you take your family to?

19 A. At my wife's request and my children's and neighbour's request --

20 well, when I got home, they were all crying. I asked them what had

21 happened. My daughter was 17 and a half, my wife was crying and

22 screaming; she said, "I can't stay here, I don't want anybody to rape my

23 child." The neighbours started to leave, and I said that -- said they

24 would go with them. So I said would take them away and I would come back.

25 And the neighbours had some friends in Herceg Novi. We arrived in Herceg

1 Novi that evening, spent the night there, in the morning I went back to

2 Titograd with them and handed over my wife and children with my

3 sister-in-law in Titograd. That night I spent in Titograd, and that was

4 the 11th, in the evening, and that evening we saw the Visegrad affair --

5 the Visegrad affair took place, the dam affair, and that was on the news,

6 the affair of the dam at Visegrad.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: What is the relevance of this, Ms. Sellers?

8 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would claim that the relevance is

9 just showing that Srebrenica was -- dropped in population, including this

10 witness's family left and that he took his family for fear of the

11 outbreak. That was the point.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's leave it at that. Is this

13 contested by the Defence?

14 MS. SELLERS: No, Your Honour, this is background material.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's move.

16 MS. SELLERS:

17 Q. All right. Mr. Bogilovic, did you then return to the municipality

18 of Srebrenica?

19 A. I did return. On the 12th. By train from Bar to Belgrade and

20 Titograd, Titovo Uzice. In Titovo Uzice, I got off and I went to the bus

21 station. I saw the schedule, but there was no bus there. I waited for an

22 hour, there was still no bus, so I asked at the information desk, asked

23 them what as going on. They laughed and said, well, there's no bus. It's

24 wartime.

25 So I found this a little strange. And then the -- there was a bus

1 from Titovo Uzice to Bajina Basta. I got in that bus and was taken to

2 Bajina Basta. From Bajina Basta I went on on foot --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, stop. The question that was put to you was a

4 very simple one. Madam Sellers asked you: All right, Mr. Bogilovic, did

5 you then return to the municipality of Srebrenica? All you needed to tell

6 us --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: -- yes, I did return, and it was on the 12th of

9 April. We don't need all of the rest of the information, because

10 otherwise you will be here the next -- the whole of next week, believe me.

11 If you keep giving us all of this information, you will be here for a week

12 and a half.

13 Ms. Sellers.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did go back on the 12th of

15 April.

16 MS. SELLERS:

17 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, between the time of mid-April until about mid-May,

18 1992, did you yourself witness and experience a build-up of violence

19 between Muslims and Serbs? And please keep your answer limited and

20 contained.

21 A. On the 12th, with the entry into Bosnia-Herzegovina from Serbia, I

22 was stopped by the Serb police and they said that it was the Serb

23 municipality of Skelani. I asked the man when that happened and he said

24 it happened on the 10th of April. That's when the Skelani municipality

25 was established, separate from the Srebrenica municipality.

1 Two days later, they killed two Muslims, those same -- well the

2 same municipality between Skelani and Jezero.

3 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, could I ask you then, during the time period

4 between April and May 1992, would it be your testimony that, yes, there

5 was a build-up of violence between Muslims and Serbs, including armed

6 violence from Serb forces? Is that your testimony?

7 A. Well, I don't want to say that, but that's what happened then.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 A. And there was a great deal of fear and people were doing guard

10 duty.

11 Q. And to your knowledge, was there an arming of Bosnian Muslims in

12 reaction or because of the build-up of violence?

13 A. I'm not aware of that. The truth is that there was a protest when

14 the army arrived and wanted to take away the military booklets, records.

15 They didn't want to give them up. But before that, the army had taken

16 away all the weapons. Everything.

17 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, you're referring to the army as being the JNA army?

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. As a result of the build-up of tension leading to armed conflict,

20 and during the armed conflict during the spring of 1992, did you go to the

21 village of Suceska to stay?

22 A. Upon my return from Bratunac, I went home. I had fifty chickens,

23 a month old. I packed them up, put them in my trailer and with Sulja

24 Sedunin [phoen] and Abdurahmanovic I got into my car and drove off towards

25 Suceska. At Viogor five Serb soldiers stopped me with weapons and they

1 carried out a search.

2 Q. Right. Mr. Bogilovic, after being stopped by the Serb soldiers,

3 did you eventually make it to the house of person named Zulfo Tursunovic

4 in Suceska?

5 A. That's two kilometres away. Yes. I found his wife there and I

6 asked her whether I could leave my chickens there, and she said that I

7 could, so I left my chickens there and as that's where his house is and

8 his brother's house, I carried on into the village to look for food with

9 which to feed my chickens.

10 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, did you know Mr. Zulfo Tursunovic prior to May of

11 1992?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, how long did you stay in the village or near the

14 village of Suceska in the month of May? Until what date?

15 A. I think that I stayed there a total, in fact until the 22nd, 23rd,

16 25th of May.

17 Q. Thank you. I would like to turn your attention now to the 20th of

18 May. Mr. Bogilovic, were you in the village of Bajramovici on the 20th of

19 May, 1992?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is the village in the municipality of Srebrenica?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Would you please explain, briefly explain to the Trial Chamber the

24 reason that you were in the village of Bajramovici on the 20th of May.

25 A. The reason was because Zulfo had told me, while I was in the

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1 village of Suceska, Zulfo had told me to come to his house. When I got

2 there, to his house, he told me an attack had been carried out and there

3 are killings in Bratunac and in the municipality of Vlasenica. An

4 ultimatum was issued to the village of Bajramovici to move out and to go

5 to Turkey, and that the time has come for us to do something.

6 He said that Ustic Akif would come to Bajramovici and asked me

7 whether I wanted to go to Bajramovici with them and I said that I wanted

8 to go there.

9 Q. About how many persons were present in the village of Bajramovici

10 when you went there?

11 A. When we got there in the village, the entire village attended the

12 rally, all the inhabitants. There were several young men from Potocari

13 who had come from Potocari, and Akif had come.

14 Q. Would you tell the Trial Chamber whether there were about under

15 100 or over 100 persons present at this time.

16 A. I think that nobody counted them. I didn't count them, but the

17 entire village was there, it must have been thereabouts. Plus, minus,

18 that would be the figure.

19 Q. Was a person that you knew of named Naser Oric present at this

20 gathering in Bajramovici?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Had you known this person named Naser Oric before this meeting or

23 gathering in Bajramovici?

24 A. Yes, I had known him from when he came to work for us.

25 Q. Does that mean that you knew him when he came to work while you

1 were a police officer?

2 A. Yes. That was before the war.

3 Q. Was Mr. Naser Oric also a police officer?

4 A. Yes, he was a police officer. I had information that he was in

5 the special units in Belgrade, with Milosevic.

6 Q. Does that mean that Mr. Naser Oric followed schooling similar to

7 yours prior to being named a police officer?

8 A. Most probably, yes. He should have graduated from the police

9 school, but as for any other specialist training, there were special

10 courses, training for that, seminars.

11 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Naser Oric, in addition to studying at any

12 police school before becoming a police officer, also took special courses

13 or special training in order to become a guard with Mr. Milosevic?

14 MR. JONES: I hate to object. He didn't say guard with Milosevic,

15 he talked about special --

16 MS. SELLERS: I'm sorry.

17 MR. JONES: -- special units in Belgrade with Milosevic.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Correct. Could you rephrase your question.

19 MS. SELLERS: Yes, I stand corrected. Your Honour, excuse me.

20 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Naser Oric therefore had any additional

21 training in order to become part of a special unit in Belgrade, in

22 addition to the training at the police school?

23 A. I don't know about that. I could not vouch for that because

24 that's not something that I know.

25 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, you testified that there was a person named Akif

1 Ustic who was present. Did you know Mr. Akif Ustic prior to this meeting

2 or this gathering in Bajramovici?

3 A. Yes. I did know him.

4 Q. And what context did you know Mr. Ustic prior to this meeting?

5 A. He was a teacher, of physical education.

6 Q. Did you know whether there was a person named Hamdija Fejzic

7 present at this meeting?

8 A. Hamdija Fejzic was present at the meeting. He was a resident of

9 the village of Bajramovici.

10 Q. Was there a person named Ahmo Tihic present at this meeting?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you know Mr. Ahmo Tihic prior to the meeting in Bajramovici?

13 A. Yes, I did know him. He was a driver. He worked at the transport

14 company in Bajina Basta in Serbia, and then later on he had his own

15 company for transportation.

16 Q. Would you please tell the Trial Chamber what, if anything,

17 resulted from the gathering in Bajramovici on the 20th of May with the

18 persons that you have just told us who were present.

19 A. The biggest reason was the fear, the fear of the people and an

20 appeal launched by the people to do something, for people to come together

21 to prevent what had happened in Bratunac.

22 Q. Well, what did happen then, as a result of this meeting?

23 A. That was mostly because of the fear, because there were mass

24 arrests in Bratunac and in Vlasenica, and people wanted to come together

25 to gather and to set up guards. That was the reason.

1 Q. And what type of guards or what types of setting up or any type of

2 designations were made at the meeting in Bajramovici, to your knowledge?

3 A. If any attack should happen on the other villages, then all the

4 other villages would help the village under the attack.

5 Q. Mr. --

6 A. That was how it was set up.

7 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, at the meeting in Bajramovici, were you asked to do

8 any special task?

9 A. I was not asked to do anything. The only thing was that Akif

10 Ustic said that Srebrenica had been devastated and plundered, that there

11 was a threat of an epidemic and that refugees had become to come in and

12 that I should go to Srebrenica to set up law and order, to set up a police

13 station there so that law and order could be re-established.

14 Q. And did you accept the responsibility that was asked to set up a

15 police station at that meeting in Bajramovici?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was the person you described as Naser Oric, was he asked to assume

18 any responsibility that day at that meeting?

19 A. I don't know about that, but assignments were handed out at that

20 time and this is what I was told.

21 Q. What assignments were handed out at that time in relationship to

22 the person described as Naser Oric?

23 A. Well, he was supposed to be the commander of the staff, the staff

24 for salvation. It seemed to me more like a staff that was tasked with

25 saving the town. This was the name that they used for some reason, and

1 this name just stuck, the staff, the term. Akif was supposed to be his

2 deputy and Hamdija was to still remain in Bajramovici, another person in

3 Suceska, and Josic [phoen] was to remain in his village where he had been

4 before, and so on.

5 Q. Was there any special responsibility or task given to the person

6 you described as Zulfo Tursunovic?

7 A. Nobody in fact was given any special task. The only person to get

8 a special task was myself. I was told to call up all the police officers

9 that used to be police officers before and to set up this police station.

10 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, do you recall whether the staff of the Srebrenica

11 TO was formed on that day in Bajramovici?

12 A. I remember 20th of May, 1992.

13 Q. And do you remember whether the territorial staff of the

14 Srebrenica municipality was formed on that day, or not?

15 A. This is when we called it the staff. We, who were there. In

16 fact, the people delegated to Zulfo, the village of Potocari delegated

17 Naser, Srebrenica delegated Akif, Bajramovici Hamdija, and the only thing

18 was that I was tasked by them to be the police officers in charge of

19 police.

20 Q. And to your knowledge, did Mr. Oric on that occasion accept to be

21 the commander designated by Potocari of the territorial staff?

22 MR. JONES: The witness hasn't accepted it was the territorial

23 staff. He talked about first of all the staff of salvation, then he said

24 we call it the staff. He hasn't accepted it was a territorial staff.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: In fact that is the first time that I am hearing the

1 term "territorial staff," and that is by you.

2 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I believe I asked that in a prior

3 question. If you just give me one second, please.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Your question was, "And do you remember whether the

5 territorial staff of Srebrenica municipality was formed on that day?" And

6 he had answered, "This is when we called it the staff, who we -- we who

7 were there." But he didn't say it was territorial staff, he said that

8 they called it a staff, so let's keep calling it a staff.

9 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour, let me just rephrase that.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Srebrenica staff, basically. I mean, because it's

11 more or less... That's the impression I got from his answers, anyway.

12 MS. SELLERS: Certainly. I stand corrected.

13 Q. Then to your knowledge, did Mr. Oric, on that occasion, accept to

14 be the commander designated by Potocari of the Srebrenica staff?

15 A. There were two proposals. One was for Mr. Oric and the other one

16 was for Mr. Ustic. And there was a vote and the result was that Mr. Oric

17 be appointed the commander and Mr. Akif Ustic was to be his deputy.

18 Q. And who participated in the voting?

19 A. We did. The people that was present there. In fact, not all

20 could fit into this room, because it was not a large room.

21 Q. And as a result of that voting, is it your testimony that Mr. Oric

22 then accepted to be the commander of the Srebrenica staff?

23 A. Yes. We all accepted. Oric accepted to be the commander,

24 Mr. Ustic to be his commander, Zulfo accepted to go back to Suceska,

25 Hamdija to Bajramovici, and I accepted to go back to Srebrenica to

1 establish a police station.

2 Q. During that meeting you mentioned that there was a person called

3 Hamdija Fejzic present. Would you please tell the Trial Chamber what, if

4 anything, he was doing during the meeting.

5 A. Hamdija took the minutes. He had a notebook and a pencil and he

6 was taking notes.

7 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, you mentioned that Akif Ustic, or Ustic, accepted

8 to be -- on the transcript it says "to be his commander." Was Akif Ustic

9 -- accepted Naser Oric to be his commander, or did you want to say

10 something different?

11 A. No. In fact, it was decided and accepted that Naser be the

12 commander, and that Mr. Ustic be his deputy.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would like Mr. Bogilovic to be shown

15 P73. Mr. Bogilovic will be shown the original. I believe that we have

16 copies. Could I please have the usher assist us with the original here

17 that we will give to the witness.

18 I've been informed that the English translation, in particular the

19 second page of the English translation, is not in Sanction, so I would ask

20 you to, when I refer to that second page, please refer to your copy on the

21 ELMO.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I have it here. We have the second page. So if

23 necessary, we will put the second page on the ELMO.

24 MS. SELLERS: Thank you.

25 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, I would ask you to look at the document before you.

1 A. I did see this document.

2 Q. Yes. I would like to draw your attention to the last paragraph of

3 the document, that's entitled: Statement of reasons.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: What --

5 MS. SELLERS: It's on the second page of the English translation.

6 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, I would like to ask you: Are these some of the

7 reasons that the meeting in Bajramovici was called on the 20th of May,

8 1992?

9 A. The main reason was the attacks of the Serbian units and the

10 arrests of the various persons and the fear.

11 Q. Was there also a need that was seen by the people who had gathered

12 in Bajramovici that day, to self-organise and to merge self-organised

13 groups into larger units?

14 A. Yes, certainly.

15 Q. Was there also expressed by people that day, and a result of the

16 meeting, the creation of a single military command of all the armed groups

17 within the Srebrenica municipality?

18 A. Yes. Certainly. The problem was because of the relief, because

19 we could not establish links between our units because there were Serb

20 units between us and if we want to send our couriers to establish

21 communication with other units, many of our couriers never came back.

22 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, I would now like to ask you to turn your attention

23 to section 2 of this document. Does section 2 of this document accurately

24 reflect your testimony of the appointments of Naser Oric as commander and

25 that of Akif Ustic as deputy commander?

1 A. This is correct. This is how it was, and for the first time, in

2 this format, and this is the -- I saw this paper for the first time when

3 Mr. Nasir showed it to me and it was recorded in a notebook in pencil.

4 Q. May I just correct for the record that the Nasir that I believe

5 that Mr. Bogilovic at this point is speaking about is the investigator

6 from the Office of the Prosecutor. I do not want to mislead anyone on

7 that.

8 Mr. Bogilovic, the first time you saw this was handwritten? Is

9 that what your testimony is, in terms of your first visual looking of a

10 document that had that information on it?

11 A. Which? There are two here.

12 Q. I'm sorry. I'm talking about the document that is before you.

13 You just testified that the first time you saw it was in handwriting.

14 A. I saw this document for the first time when Mr. Nasir showed it to

15 me in Austria.

16 Q. May I draw your attention further down to number 6, where it says

17 "Becir Bogilovic from Srebrenica is a member of the Srebrenica TO staff,

18 an outstanding activist in armed resistance against the aggressor in the

19 area of Suceska." Is that a reference to you, Mr. Bogilovic?

20 A. Yes. This is precise reference to me, because the practice was,

21 at all times in the previous system, if you want to appoint somebody for

22 -- to some post, you have to write some good things about him.

23 Q. And is that why they wrote that you were "an outstanding activist

24 in armed resistance against the aggressor"?

25 A. Probably, yes, because I was a policeman as well.

1 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, will you also just confirm, then, that the

2 mentioning of Hamdija Fejzic, Sefkic Jokic [phoen], and also Ahmo Tihic

3 conformed to what you witnessed that day in Bajramovici in terms of the

4 appointments to the Srebrenica staff?

5 A. As far as Hamdija is concerned -- yes, Hamdija, because he was in

6 front of the people, Bajramovici; Zulfo was the Suceska people; Jusofovic

7 was from Srebrenica; and Oric Naser was from Potocari, representing them.

8 Q. Would you please turn to or look at the bottom of that document,

9 where you see the name Hamdija Fejzic written. Do you recall that day

10 that Hamdija Fejzic was taking notes?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: He has already said it, yes.

12 MS. SELLERS: I'm sorry. I will withdraw that question.

13 Q. I would like to ask you: Prior to you being shown this document

14 by the investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor, had you seen the

15 signature of a person called Naser Oric on any occasion?

16 A. The first time I saw it was when we had this meeting and when I

17 was given the task of setting up a police station. Then they were

18 supposed to give me two members, two people. And the people they were

19 sending, they had to write down their names. So that was the first time

20 that I saw that Zulfo sent me two people, Oric sent me two people, and the

21 third man sent me two people, and that was in 1992.

22 And I saw this because in 1995, on the 18th of April, on paper,

23 appointing me, that's what I saw.

24 Q. Can I clarify, so that I understand correctly, are you stating

25 that you'd seen the signature of a person called Naser Oric on two

1 occasions because you were sent -- people were sent to you from him?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you also see the signature of Naser Oric, prior to the

4 investigator from the OTP showing you this document on a third occasion?

5 A. In 1995 -- no, 1993 on the 18th of April, 1993. And I never saw

6 it up until I was shown it by Mr. Nasir.

7 Q. I would like you to look at the signature on the bottom, left-hand

8 side of the document before you. And could you recognise that as a

9 signature of a person of the Naser Oric who was present at the meeting in

10 Bajramovici?

11 A. This is a signature in Cyrillic, in the Cyrillic script. I used

12 to write in Cyrillic 45 years ago but never since then. Now, Oric --

13 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, I would like you to -- for the sake of our time

14 period here, to respond to the question of whether you recognise the

15 signature on the bottom, left-hand side of this document as a signature of

16 the Naser Oric who was present at the meeting in Bajramovici.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Left-hand --

18 MS. SELLERS: Left-hand, yes. I'm left handed so I get that

19 confused. So bottom, left-hand corner of the document.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we see the original, please.

21 MS. SELLERS: I'm sorry, right-hand corner of the document.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean the right-hand side?

23 MS. SELLERS: Right-hand side. Excuse me.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: We have a case of dyslexia here. Let's put it on

25 the ELMO, please. Okay. Let's try and follow. Yes.

1 We are referring you to the signature which is partly hidden by

2 the stamp, on the bottom right. Do you recognise that signature?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say 100 percent. It is

4 similar, but I'm not an expert myself, so I can't say 100 percent.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: And the one on the left, do you recognise that

6 signature?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never saw that until I was shown it

8 by Mr. Nasir.

9 MS. SELLERS:

10 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, you say you can't be 100 per cent sure, but does

11 that signature resemble a signature that you have seen before by a person

12 called Naser Oric who was present at the meeting in Bajramovici?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Even if he tells you yes, Ms. Sellers, you wouldn't

14 have advanced one inch.

15 MS. SELLERS: I understand, Your Honour.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can only repeat what I said.

17 When you read the letters, it says Oric, but I can't guarantee who signed

18 it, when they signed it, because I didn't see the document. And when we

19 made this decision, nobody signed anything.

20 MS. SELLERS:

21 Q. Does that resemble the signature of Mr. Oric to you,

22 Mr. Bogilovic?

23 A. All the letters that you have in the name Oric are there. There's

24 the O, there's the R, there's the I there's the C diacritic. Now who

25 wrote it, whether he wrote it or someone else, I would leave that up to

1 the experts.

2 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, did you speak with the Office of the Prosecutor,

3 investigator Naser Oric and -- I'm sorry. D. A. Nasir.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: "Mr. Nasir."

5 MS. SELLERS: Nasir, yes.

6 Q. On the 7th of December in 2003?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: 7th of December.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what the date was, but

9 I did talk to him when he came to Austria.

10 MS. SELLERS:

11 Q. Is that when Mr. Nasir first showed you this document?

12 A. I saw that document for the first time then, in this particular

13 format.

14 Q. And do you recall what you said to Mr. Nasir when he enquired as

15 to the signature in the bottom, right-hand corner of the document?

16 A. Well, most probably I said that it was similar to Oric. It

17 resembled Oric, but that I couldn't confirm whether it was indeed his

18 signature.

19 Q. And is that your testimony today, Mr. Bogilovic?

20 A. Well, of course. That's what I'm saying -- stating.

21 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Bogilovic.

22 A. But it's a matter for the experts. You're welcome.

23 MS. SELLERS: I would like to have the document removed from the

24 witness now. I would like to have the witness shown P74. The original

25 will be shown to the witness and I think everyone else has their copy.

1 The English version is placed in Sanction.

2 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, would you please look at the document before you.

3 A. I've seen it, yes.

4 Q. Right. Could you confirm that this document reflects the

5 responsibilities that you were given to organise the police force at that

6 meeting in Bajramovici on the 20th of May, 1992.

7 A. Since I saw this document for the first time, or rather, when I

8 saw it -- I assume that when I was appointed this is the way it was

9 written for me to react, because it says "We appoint Becir Bogilovic as a

10 policeman, from Srebrenica, a policeman, the former commander of

11 Srebrenica SJB is appointed temporary police commander in the town of

12 Srebrenica." I know that the decision was made then for me to be the

13 komandir, commander, and to equip the police in Srebrenica, and no kind of

14 deputy, temporary anything or --

15 Q. Pardon me. Mr. Bogilovic, I would like to draw your attention to

16 section 1 of the document where it says that you were a former commander

17 of Srebrenica SJB.

18 Now, is that also a way of puffery to make the person feel better

19 or were you actually a former commander of the Srebrenica SJB?

20 A. In the notebook that Hamdija wrote in, according to Akif's

21 proposals, it should have said: As a komandir, commander, and not in the

22 way this was written.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: You haven't answered the question. Before you were

24 given this special assignment, to go back to Srebrenica and organise this,

25 all of this, you had been employed in the Srebrenica public security

1 station, no?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I was a pensioner.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: But before you became a pensioner, you had been a

4 policeman stationed in Srebrenica. Is that correct?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That's right, in September

6 1991, as the sector leader, and that's how I retired. I retired as a

7 sector leader.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So when they say here, in this document, "Becir

9 Bogilovic from Srebrenica, a policeman, the former commander of Srebrenica

10 SJB," is that what they are referring to, that you were the sector --

11 sector leader in Srebrenica? Or is it your position your previous

12 position is being inflated to appear as if you had been the commander of

13 the Srebrenica public security station? This is the question.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. Yes. I've understood

15 what you said. I think that this has been puffed up, because there's a

16 lot of difference here, this notion of komandir and --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Leader or whatever is not the commander of the SJB.

18 Go ahead, Ms. Sellers.

19 MS. SELLERS:

20 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, I would also draw your attention to section 2,

21 toward the end of the paragraph, the large paragraph, where it states that

22 you're temporarily accountable. "He shall be temporarily accountable for

23 his work to the Srebrenica TO staff, to the above bodies once they have

24 been set up and to the authorised institutions in Tuzla and Sarajevo when

25 they too have been set up."

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13 English transcripts.

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1 Could you explain to the Trial Chamber what this meant to you or

2 means to you in the document.

3 A. This list probably meant that because they appointed me. So it

4 would be normal for me to be responsible to them because there were no

5 other institutions or levels in Srebrenica.

6 Q. In your understanding, were you appointed to be the civilian

7 police chief?

8 A. I was appointed commandeer of the civilian police on the 20th of

9 May, 1992. For the chief of police, I was appointed on the 1st of July,

10 1992.

11 Q. And did you come under the authorities that were civilian

12 authorities in Srebrenica when you were appointed in July, on the 1st of

13 July?

14 A. On the 1st of July, that was when the decision was taken to set up

15 a wartime Presidency, and I was subordinated to the wartime Presidency and

16 President Avdic Hajrudin.

17 Q. Thank you very much.

18 MS. SELLERS: If I could ask that the document now be taken from

19 the witness.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Sellers. And thank you, usher.

21 MS. SELLERS:

22 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, in addition to the appointments that you have just

23 testified that took place as a result of the meeting on the 20th of May in

24 Bajramovici, were there other people in the month of May, 1992 that were

25 appointed to the Srebrenica staff?

1 A. The people that we talked about on the 20th of May, 1992, in view

2 of the situation -- well, actually, just one part. Suceska, Bajram,

3 Potocari, and Srebrenica were included there. So for this area to expand

4 and include other villages, what was done was that the organisation was

5 expanded.

6 Q. Do you know a person called Atif Krdzic?

7 A. Of course. I know him well.

8 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber who is he or particularly

9 who he was in that time period in 1992?

10 A. In 1992, Akif Krdzic --

11 Q. I'm sorry --

12 A. -- was a civilian.

13 Q. I'm sorry, Krdzic, Krestic [phoen]. Please excuse my

14 pronunciation.

15 A. Ah, you mean -- could you please try and pronounce the names

16 better, because there is Akif Hrustic and Akif Krdzic, so which person are

17 you referring to?

18 Q. I'm referring to the person whose name begins with a K.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: If you have difficulties, you can confidently rely

20 on either Mr. Wubben or -- yes.

21 MS. SELLERS: In the future I will.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sure you will find all the comfort that you

23 need, Ms. Sellers.

24 MS. SELLERS: Krdzic, Kresdzic [phoen]. Thank you.

25 Q. I'm referring to him, Mr. Bogilovic. Could you please continue

1 and explain to the Trial Chamber who he was or position he had in May

2 1992.

3 A. In May 1992, Atif Krdzic, he was born in the village of Osmace in

4 the municipality of Srebrenica. He was a police officer in the public

5 security station. And when I came to Srebrenica to establish the police

6 station there, I was authorised to call up all the active serving police

7 officers that I could reach, and I sent a courier to him. But the people

8 said, He cannot go. He must stay here, because the people are still

9 afraid. And since the people trusted the police, they wanted him to stay

10 there, and that is why he remained there in his own village.

11 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, did he become a member of the Srebrenica staff in

12 May 1992, to your knowledge?

13 A. As the staff expanded, all those who were appointed by the people

14 automatically became members of the staff.

15 Q. And did that include Mr. Atif Krdzic?

16 A. Most likely, yes. Because the people made the choice.

17 Q. I would like to ask you, in regard to Nedzad Bektic. Did he

18 become a member of the Srebrenica staff in May 1992?

19 A. Yes. Yes. Also.

20 Q. I would also like to ask you in regard to Senahid Tabahric. Did

21 he become a member of the Srebrenica staff in May of 1992?

22 A. Yes.

23 MS. SELLERS: Would the witness please be handed document P75.

24 The original will be shown to the witness. I believe we have the others.

25 It's also in Sanction.

1 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, will you please look at the document in front of

2 you, and could you please confirm for the Trial Chamber that it reflects

3 your testimony, particularly in relationship to Mr. Bektic and

4 Mr. Tabahric, that the Srebrenica staff expanded in the month of May 1992?

5 A. I can confirm that the staff expanded and that this was written in

6 pencil in a notebook. And I have to apologise for repeating this every

7 time. The first time that I saw this, in this form, was when Mr. Nasir

8 showed it to me.

9 Q. And is the first person on that list, beside number 1, was that

10 person also a part of the Srebrenica staff as of May 1992?

11 A. Atif Krdzic, is that who you mean? Of course, yes. The answer is

12 yes.

13 Q. And do you recognize the name on the bottom left-hand corner of

14 the document?

15 A. It says Hamdija Fejzic.

16 Q. And do you recognise the signature of the person on the right-hand

17 corner of the document as that of Naser Oric?

18 A. I can say the same thing as I had already said, because I was not

19 there when the document was signed.

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bogilovic.

21 A. You're welcome.

22 MS. SELLERS: We can please take the document from him at this

23 point in time.

24 Your Honour, did you want to make an announcement at this time

25 period or should I continue?

1 JUDGE AGIUS: No. We will continue until 4.00, since we started

2 at half past 2.00.

3 MS. SELLERS: Certainly.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: And we will have 25 -- 20 or 25-minute break. And

5 then we will continue till 6.00 or thereabouts. Or maybe five minutes

6 beyond that. But not more than that.

7 MS. SELLERS:

8 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, right now I would like to talk about the

9 organisation of the civilian police.

10 In the month of May 1992, would you explain to the Trial Chamber

11 as succinctly as possible how you took upon your task to organise the

12 civilian police in the municipality of Srebrenica.

13 Mr. Bogilovic, might I ask you, would you please tell the Trial

14 Chamber and Defence counsel as well as the Prosecution what you are

15 reading from?

16 A. This is -- these are the notes that I took, kind of a diary. If

17 this is not allowed, I cannot make use of that. It's not a problem.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: What kind of a diary? When did you write those

19 notes?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wrote that now, in the recent

21 days, because in the statement that I gave here during -- as I was giving

22 the statement, I was making these notes in order to make it easier for me

23 to remember some details.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And you think you will need those notes in order to

25 refresh your memory from time to time?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I think. But I --

2 I can put them aside. Whatever you decide, I, of course, will abide by

3 your decision.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: If you are going to -- if we are going to allow you

5 to make use of those notes, I need to make it clear to you that you need

6 also to make them available to us. In other words, we will have a copy of

7 them and they will be made available to the Prosecution and to the

8 Defence.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, yes, if you want, you can

10 have them.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Madam Vidovic?

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If the witness is going to be using

13 his notes, I would like to have copies.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sellers, have you seen those notes already? Or

15 not yet.

16 MS. SELLERS: I have not seen those notes in order to read them.

17 I notice that during the sessions of proofing at times Mr. Bogilovic would

18 be writing, at other times he would be doodling on paper. So I do not

19 know whether this might be a combination of both.

20 I would suggest that he answer questions without the notes. If he

21 needs, in any way, to have his memory refreshed, that might be a different

22 issue. But I would suggest that we begin without the notes. They're not

23 anything I wanted to --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bogilovic, if you are going to make use of those

25 notes, then obviously we need to see them. All right. Let's proceed.

1 MS. SELLERS:

2 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, did you begin to organise, in May 1992, the

3 civilian police force in Srebrenica?

4 A. When I was appointed on the 20th of May, 1992, since all my staff

5 was in Suceska and also my chickens, I went there to Suceska to get all

6 that stuff, and then three or four days later I returned to Srebrenica.

7 Since my house had been burned, I went to see a colleague of mine.

8 We had worked together for 20 years, and I asked him if I could live in

9 his place and he said, of course. So that's where I stayed, at his place.

10 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, excuse me, very briefly would you explain to the

11 Trial Chamber how your house was burned, or when and how your house was

12 burned.

13 A. I don't know the exact date. It must have been around the 4th of

14 May. It wasn't just my house. 88 houses in total had been burnt.

15 Q. And were those houses burned as a result of armed Serb forces or

16 armed Muslim forces?

17 A. My house and all the other houses, when the Serb units went in,

18 the Serbian company that got in on the 18th of April, 1992, it was

19 commanded by Pero nicknamed Zimunitz [phoen]. That was a whole company of

20 this military, and they also had some local Serbs with them.

21 Q. And were they the --

22 A. And they started committing crimes of plundering houses, taking

23 various electronic goods, and arresting people. They burned 88 houses,

24 killed seven whole families. Killed a family of young people, including

25 their three children. They killed a disabled person, a retired police

1 officer who was unable to walk, Abdurahmanovic was also killed in the

2 police station, the headmaster, and when I got to the police station, in

3 view of the situation, these people had been killed, the station was torn

4 down, and I did not agree to go and to work there in this police station

5 building.

6 Q. Okay, excuse me, Mr. Bogilovic.

7 A. So I went --

8 Q. Excuse me, can I just clarify. Your house was burned down as a

9 result of Serb army in April, is that what you've just told the Trial

10 Chamber? Yes?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. Could we --

13 A. Not in April. In May.

14 Q. In May.

15 A. In May. The 4th of May.

16 Q. Thank you. Now, could we return to your explaining to the Trial

17 Chamber how you set up the civilian police force also in May, 1992.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How did you gather the men who had come within the civilian police

20 force?

21 A. Mr. Akif Ustic, said when he proposed me, he said that this should

22 be done as soon as possible because there was a risk of an epidemic,

23 refrigerators didn't work, food was rotting, there was no water supply,

24 and the refugees from the area of Bratunac started coming to Srebrenica

25 and that was the reason why law and order should be re-established as soon

1 as possible.

2 He said that he had appointed some police officers but he was not

3 happy with them. When I got there, when I learned about any active duty

4 police officers, I called them up, since there were very few of them.

5 Then Naser sent me two, Hamdija sent me two people, Zulfo sent me two

6 people, and I was able to establish the police force in the building of

7 the territorial defence staff.

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bogilovic. When you say that Naser sent you two,

9 Zulfo sent you two, are you referring to Naser Oric?

10 A. Yes, Naser Oric. Because it was agreed at that time that all of

11 them should send me two people each.

12 Q. And is that the same Naser Oric that was with you on the 20th of

13 May in Bajramovici?

14 A. Yes. Yes. That's the same person. There is no other.

15 Q. When the two officers or the two persons sent you by Naser Oric,

16 did he send any paperwork with those two persons?

17 A. I think I did say a little while ago he did send something,

18 because they needed to have a sheet telling them to report to me. It was

19 just a piece of paper and it was handwritten.

20 Q. And what did the piece of paper say, if you remember?

21 A. Full name of that person and his signature and the instructions to

22 report to me. It said I am sending you these two persons to be police

23 officers, and that's what it says.

24 Q. Whose signature was on the documents?

25 A. Oric's.

1 Q. When you say "Oric," or you say "Naser," can I assume that you're

2 always referring to Naser Oric who was at the meeting on the 20th in

3 Bajramovici?

4 A. I'm always referring to him because there was no other person.

5 There was only this one man.

6 Q. Thank you. Now you stated that Zulfo and other persons who were

7 on the Srebrenica staff also sent you persons to man your civilian police.

8 Is that correct?

9 A. Yes. That is correct.

10 Q. Did you have a deputy --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because there is something in the

12 transcript that I -- I want to make sure that it will not be

13 misinterpreted at any time. The witness is reported as having answered,

14 "I'm always referring to him because there was no other person. There

15 was only this one man."

16 Basically, what you are telling us is that there was only one

17 Naser Oric.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, did you have a deputy to assist you in the forming

21 and the functioning of the civilian police?

22 A. When Nedzad Bektic became part of the staff, he proposed a man by

23 the name of Nurija, who used to be a police officer, that this person be

24 made my deputy. And this was accepted.

25 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber, what was the family name, last

1 name, the surname of Nurija.

2 A. Nurija Jusofovic.

3 Q. Would you please tell the Trial Chamber where, if anywhere, the

4 offices of the civilian police were located in the month of May, 1992.

5 A. In May 1992, we were in the Territorial Defence Staff building.

6 We took over their offices.

7 Q. I would like the witness to look at the monitor for Sanction, and

8 also the Trial Chamber. There is a picture, the ER -- I have to be

9 advised of the ERN number.

10 A. I can see this photograph. This building is the Territorial

11 Defence Staff.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but --

13 MS. SELLERS:

14 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, indicating the building that is of to the left-hand

15 side of the screen that appears to be yellow, or are you indicating a

16 building that is to the right-hand side of the screen that appears to be

17 quite dark?

18 A. No. This one right in the middle. The building to the left is

19 the skyscraper, the whiter one; and this one that appears to be dirty,

20 this is the one that was partially burned down when fire was set to it.

21 This was due to smoke. But this is an integral part of this building.

22 Q. We will place one on the ELMO so that the witness will be able to

23 also indicate. Mr. Bogilovic, would you look at the picture on the ELMO

24 and, please, could you point to where the offices of the civilian police

25 were located.

1 MS. SELLERS: I would ask that the picture be moved down.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters apologise, we did not hear the

3 witness because he was not speaking into the microphone.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Can you point to the building again,

5 Mr. Bogilovic, please, without hiding it with your hand.

6 So for the record, the photograph that the witness is being

7 referred to bears ERN number 03650237 and the witness has pointed, indeed,

8 to the part of the -- to the building that is exactly in the middle

9 between the high rising building and the other one on the right, which

10 shows -- the signs of burning and which has the words "Lukic" written

11 across. Yes, we can proceed.

12 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honours.

13 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, I would like to ask you, that part of the building

14 that you are pointing to that appears to be lighter, is that joined to the

15 upper part of the building that appears to be darker? Is that a building

16 that is joined?

17 A. This is one building. This is all one building. The lighter one

18 and the darker one, that's one and the same building. Because this is

19 where the offices are and this is where the depot of the Territorial

20 Defence Staff was, this area here.

21 Q. Can I have two last questions, Your Honour. Mr. Bogilovic, if you

22 would move your marker down on the dark area of the building, toward the

23 ground, would you explain to the Trial Chamber, what building is that, to

24 your knowledge?

25 A. This is the Red Cross building and the building where the sports

1 equipment was.

2 Q. Was that a storage facility, to your knowledge, prior to the war?

3 A. It was the Red Cross and the sports equipment. Bataju

4 Vukisavljevic had it. He was a coach.

5 Q. Did that building have bars on the window, prior to the war?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. To your knowledge, did that building have bars on the window

8 during the war, between 1992 and 1995?

9 A. Nobody took the bars off.

10 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I have no further questions on this

11 section. I would ask that the document be taken away from the witness and

12 ask for a P number for it, please.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. I think we have seen this document

14 before.

15 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, that is a photo. What we have seen

16 before is part of a video film.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document will become document P516. I thank

18 you. We will have a 20-minute break, if that is agreeable to, first of

19 all, the parties.

20 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: And then the technicians -- this will be the only

22 break that we will have, but then we will finish at 6.00. I see nodding.

23 Yes. Technicians? I can't see behind the glass.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you. We will resume in 20, 25

1 minutes time.

2 --- Recess taken at 4.00 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 4.30 p.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's continue, Ms. Sellers. We are going --

5 proceeding very, very slowly. It is not your fault, of course. It's

6 someone else's fault, but let's try to finish with this witness today.

7 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would say I would try to speak faster

8 but then --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. I don't think that will help.

10 And you, Mr. Bogilovic, please try to keep your answers as

11 concise, as short and as to-the-point as possible, because I am trying to

12 be able to make sure to send you back home first thing early next week,

13 but at this rate, you are going to be here a long, long time.

14 MS. SELLERS:

15 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, you were explaining to us where the police offices

16 of the civilian police. I would just like to ask you a couple of

17 questions. Did you have at your disposal a typewriter?

18 A. At the beginning, in the first days, I did not. But I took it

19 from a citizen who happened to find it somewhere. I confiscated it and

20 took it for myself. It wasn't in very good order, some letters were

21 missing, and I would add those letters in pencil, the missing letters.

22 Q. Were you also able to get paper to use in the typewriter?

23 A. It was difficult to come by the paper. So we would use any old

24 pieces of paper that we would find. We would have a piece of paper and

25 when we finished writing on one side, we would use the other side, and so

1 made double use of the paper we had available.

2 MR. JONES: Just a very small thing, he did say "vilitesko"

3 [phoen] "very difficult." I think it was interpreted as "difficult."

4 It's a small matter, but I think it should be corrected.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You heard what Mr. Jones said. You

6 agree with that, that you said "very difficult"? Do you agree that you'd

7 said "very difficult" and not just "difficult" to find paper, to procure

8 paper?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very difficult, yes.

10 MS. SELLERS:

11 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, would you explain to the Trial Chamber --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Jones.

13 Q. -- very briefly, what was the function of the civilian police?

14 A. The civilian police worked pursuant to the rules of service for

15 the public security service, and as I had worked as an active duty

16 policeman for 20 years, I continued that practice when I was appointed to

17 that post. It is true that I worked as sector leader but I just changed

18 the name. I was komandir. Now as for the work that I did, the work was

19 the same before the war and during the war and our duties boiled down to

20 the following: To maintaining law and order, fighting crime, offering

21 security and safety and assistance to other organizations and

22 institutions.

23 Q. Thank you. And is the civilian police to be distinguished from

24 any organisation referred to as the military police?

25 A. As far as the military structures, I'm not aware of them. I don't

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1 know about that. But I do know that before the war as well, if there

2 wasn't any military police, then we as civilian police men would be able

3 to take somebody into custody if they were disturbing the peace or engaged

4 in a crime. But we had to inform the nearest military unit straight away,

5 of the military police, for them to take further steps.

6 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bogilovic, on July 1st, 1992, did you attend a

7 meeting of the Srebrenica War Presidency?

8 A. On the 1st of July, 1992, I was present and that's when I was

9 appointed and promoted as chief of the service for public security of the

10 Srebrenica municipality.

11 Q. Would you please tell the Trial Chamber who was also present at

12 the meeting on July 1st?

13 A. At that same meeting all the previous people were present from the

14 20th of May and there were quite a number of them because it was an

15 expanded meeting where members of the War Presidency were elected, among

16 other things.

17 Q. Where did the meeting for the War Presidency, on July 1st, take

18 place? In what location? What city, town, village?

19 A. That was -- the first meeting on the 25th of May was in

20 Bajramovici, and the second was a little further away from Bajramovici.

21 There's a settlement called Stupina, a village called Stupina between

22 Bajramovici and Srebrenica. Stupina was the name, Sab Bojna [phoen]

23 Stupina.

24 Q. Pardon me. Is that where the meeting on July 1st took place, in

25 Stupina?

1 A. At Stupina, yes, on the 1st of July, 1992.

2 Q. And is that in the Srebrenica municipality?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. And you said that people who were present at that meeting had been

5 present at the meeting of May 20th. Does that mean that Naser Oric was

6 present at that meeting?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were appointments made at that first meeting or that meeting of

9 the War Presidency similar to appointments that were made on the 20th of

10 May?

11 A. Yes, they were. They were. But the president of the War

12 Presidency was elected, or rather municipality president, and at the same

13 time he performed the duty of president of the War Presidency. So it

14 would appear actually that the civilian authorities were established then

15 too, headed by the president of the municipality.

16 Q. Please give the name --

17 A. That's how it turned up.

18 Q. Pardon me. Please give the name of the president of the

19 municipality that you're referring to.

20 A. At the time, the president of the municipality, Mr. Hajrudin

21 Avdic, was put forward, nominated, and elected.

22 Q. I would like to ask the witness and the Trial Chamber to look at

23 the screen, at a photo.

24 A. That's right, yes. Oh, it's gone away. This gentleman is

25 Hajrudin Avdic, on the screen, 28.11.92, or whatever other numbers.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment now. Keep the freeze as this. Which

2 document is this taken from Ms. Sellers?

3 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, this is a video that is P -- one

4 moment, please. I'm sorry. We have to ask for a number for this

5 document. What it is is there are two videos that are extremely similar

6 that the Trial Chamber has already seen, but this is video number 5315.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: But does it have an exhibit number?

8 MS. SELLERS: No, Your Honour. I would ask for one.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So --

10 MS. SELLERS: It's an identical copy of 393, which does have a P

11 number.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. For the record, the witness was shown

13 just one slide from a video that Ms. Sellers has referred to and precisely

14 the slide which is clocked at 03.59.1. It carries the date of the 28th of

15 November of 1992, at time shown being 14 hours, 11 minutes. And the words

16 and the text, interpreter, are these foreign? And they have

17 "/unclear/full stop."

18 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would like to say we're not entering

19 it for the text underneath.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: It is just to identify the...

21 MS. SELLERS: Certainly.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So that's Hajrudin Avdic.

23 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour. I would like to submit that into

24 evidence. I would like to also inform the Trial Chamber that the similar

25 video has P number 318.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So what number -- what number should we give this

2 video, Registrar, please? 51 -- 517. So this video, which contains this

3 shot here, will be given Prosecution Exhibit P517.

4 MS. SELLERS:

5 Q. Thank you, Your Honour. Mr. Bogilovic, at the meeting that took

6 place on the 1st of July, you stated that you were appointed to a position

7 of public security station. Were there any appointments that were given

8 to persons such as Hamdija Fejzic?

9 A. I think there were, because that's when the civilian protection

10 was formed. Jusuf started working before that, but that's when it came to

11 be known as the civilian protection because it had to deal with the

12 infrastructure in town, clean up the infrastructure and set that in order.

13 So, Nurija Jusofovic was appointed commander of the police station.

14 Q. Is that Nurija Jusofovic who you testified earlier was your

15 deputy?

16 A. Yes. That's the same man, surname and first name.

17 Q. Did a person named Jusuf Halilovic receive an appointment as well?

18 A. Jusuf Halilovic was appointed the leader of civilian protection.

19 MS. SELLERS: I would like to have the witness shown the original

20 of P42 and I believe that the English will be in Sanction.

21 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, would you please look at the document that is in

22 front of you and confirm --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Usher, could we have the English version put

24 on the ELMO, please. It's for, the public won't be able to follow the

25 Sanction.

1 MS. SELLERS:

2 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, if you look at the document before you, would you

3 confirm that it accurately reflects what you have testified about in terms

4 of the person or the meeting of the War Presidency on the 1st of July,

5 1992.

6 A. As far as this text is concerned, it was written in pencil and

7 Hamdija wrote it down into a notebook. These names, yes, they were those,

8 and as to this piece of paper, well, I'm looking at it for the first time

9 because we didn't have this format at the time, nor did we have the

10 typewriter or anything like that.

11 Yes, Hamdija and Fejzic president of the executive board. Now

12 with Resid Effendic, there was a problem there that he was secretary. He

13 never actually worked in that post because he was ill and couldn't come to

14 work. Oric Naser, yes. Becir -- yes -- Bogilovic, that was the

15 policeman. Halilovic, yes. Dudic, Mandic, Sefik, Mekic, Asiz [phoen],

16 and Tabahric. Yes, yes, eleven members there. Those were the ones. And

17 this was to be expanded in time.

18 Q. Now, due to your appointment, under article 10 as the chief of

19 public security, who became your direct superior or your boss?

20 A. My immediate superior was the president of the War Presidency, or

21 rather, president of the municipality, Avdic Hajrudin, and I was

22 duty-bound to report to him, both orally and in writing, and to follow his

23 orders.

24 Q. Would you look at the bottom of the document, where there is a

25 signature on the right-hand side.

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Had you had occasions to see the signature of the person you've

3 described as your boss, Hajrudin Avdic, on more than one occasion?

4 A. I did have occasion to see his signature, when he called me to

5 attend meetings, or rather, the first document appointing me was on the

6 14th of October, 1992 and that's when I saw it. So the first document in

7 this format I received on the 14th of October, 1992, as I said.

8 Q. Do you recognise the signature on the right-hand side of this

9 document as that of your former boss, Hajrudin Avdic?

10 A. Well, he just scrawled something down. Probably it is. Most

11 probably. That's what his scrawl looked like.

12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bogilovic.

13 MS. SELLERS: We can remove the document from the witness, please.

14 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, on July 1st, 1992, to your knowledge was anyone

15 appointed or asked to perform the task of chief of military police?

16 A. As for that, the appointment of chief of military police, I don't

17 know about that. I know that on the 1st of July there was somebody

18 appointed komandir of the military police. As to the chief on the 1st of

19 July, nobody was.

20 Q. Would you please tell the Trial Chamber who was appointed komandir

21 of the military police.

22 A. As commander of the military police on the 1st of July, Mirzet

23 Halilovic was elected, nickname Mirza.

24 Q. Did you know Mirzet Halilovic prior to July 1st, 1992?

25 A. I knew Mirzet just slightly. Well, he went to secondary school.

1 I don't know where he graduated. Maybe from Bratunac. I didn't know him

2 well. I got to know him during the war.

3 Q. Was he a former police officer, or was he a police officer prior

4 to the war?

5 A. Before the war there was some sort of teams that went to Zagreb,

6 to the police there. They would go and come back. I really don't know

7 whether he went or not. Probably he went somewhere, he was sent

8 somewhere, but I can't confirm that because I don't know for certain.

9 Q. When Mr. Mirzet Halilovic was appointed to be commander of the

10 military police, how did his function differ from your function now as

11 chief of public security or that of Nurija Jusofovic who was, you said,

12 your successor for the civilian police?

13 A. As far as the functions were concerned, where Jusofovic Nurija and

14 the civilian police, he was called the komandir and so was the other

15 person, he was known as the komandir of the military police. Now what the

16 authority and competences of the civilian police was, I know about that;

17 as to the military police, I really don't know. I'm not a soldier so I

18 know nothing about the army and can't tell you about the military police.

19 As far as my function is concerned, mine was higher.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MS. SELLERS: I would like the usher to show the witness the

22 original document P109, and I believe that the English will be put on our

23 Sanctions.

24 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, I ask you to look at the document, and if you would

25 go to the third paragraph down, does that reflect your testimony in terms

1 of the appointment of Mr. Mirzet Halilovic as commander of the military

2 police unit?

3 A. As I said a moment ago, this is how it stood. The decision was

4 made to form the wartime military police, that's what I said, and Mirzet

5 Halilovic was appointed the commander of the unit, as I said.

6 Q. When you look at the second paragraph of this document. Does it

7 also accurately reflect what occurred, in terms of appointments, at the

8 meeting of the War Presidency on the 1st of July, 1992?

9 A. Yes. Because he was elected on the 1st, just like everyone else.

10 Q. And are you aware of an appointment of Hamid Alic to any position

11 or post?

12 A. Hamid?

13 Q. I'll withdraw that question. Mr. Bogilovic, you don't have to

14 answer that question.

15 A. Hamid is not there. There's Hamed, with an E. Yes. Hamed, yes.

16 Q. Your Honour --

17 A. Hamed came to Srebrenica at that time. He told us about the

18 situation. He was communications man. He worked at the post office in

19 Bratunac, so he was taken away to be executed by a firing squad and he

20 survived, and he came back and together with another man, who was also a

21 communications person, who was familiar with communications, they were

22 both appointed to this communications position.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I will reinstate the question, if

25 possible. Thank you.

1 Q. I would then again ask you, at the bottom right-hand corner, would

2 you look at the signature and does that resemble the signature of the

3 person that we've referred to as Naser Oric who was present at the War

4 Presidency meeting on July 1st, 1992?

5 A. I have to apologise once again. This is the first time that I see

6 this piece of paper. So the same situation again as regards the

7 signature.

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bogilovic.

9 MS. SELLERS: You can remove the document from the witness,

10 please.

11 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, on the 2nd July, 1992, were you injured in any form

12 or way?

13 A. On the 2nd of July, that is the Muslim New Year.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the microphone be turned on for the

15 witness, please.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The shelling began and the dead

17 started coming in, the couriers informed us, and of course we went to

18 check what was happening in that part of the area. A trench that was in

19 our terrain in the village of Likari, the house that was attacked by the

20 Serb forces, a father and a son were taken away and they disappeared

21 without a trace.

22 This is where they set up their artillery, and this is where they

23 fired from. We went -- I and Elvir, a police officer of mine, we went

24 there to see how we could help, and because we had a small truck we had to

25 leave it in Potocari and we went there.

1 We encountered several of our soldiers, shells were falling down,

2 and when the shell would fall, we would run there, wait for the next one

3 to fall, and then we went to a trench, because about 30 of our lads were

4 there. We wanted to get them out.

5 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, were you injured as a result of the shelling on

6 that day on July 2nd, 1992?

7 A. As we approached that area, as I was going to check another trench

8 to check whether anybody was there, I was wounded. There was a Serb

9 section there and somebody there fired from his rifle at me and I was

10 wounded. A man, a young man was walking behind me and he asked me whether

11 I was wounded, and I said yes, and then he covered me with his fire as I

12 crawled back.

13 They took me to a house in Srebrenica. There were no windows --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: You did not receive good training when you were

15 studying to become a policeman. Please, try to answer the question and

16 just the question and nothing beyond that. You were just asked a simple

17 question. You gave us a whole story. You were asked whether you were

18 injured on the 2nd of July. No one asked you how, where and by whom. You

19 just -- you were just asked a simple question. And you have given us the

20 answer. So next question, Ms. Sellers.

21 MS. SELLERS:

22 Q. As a result -- thank you, Your Honour. As a result of your

23 injury, were you -- did you go to a hospital for a period of two weeks

24 followed by a period of convalescence for two months?

25 A. After I was wounded, I was taken to a hospital. It was not a

1 hospital proper, it was just a house. A doctor by the name of Dzanic was

2 in that house. Since it turned out that the conditions there were not

3 proper, there were no window panes, lice appeared, infestation by lice, a

4 colleague came for me and took me to his house. I had to sign --

5 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Bogilovic. Might I please ask the next question.

6 Was the colleague whose house you went to Mr. Zulkic? Yes or no, please.

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One moment because we still haven't got the

9 answer to the previous question, whether he stayed first sort of under

10 treatment for two weeks, followed by a period of convalescence of two

11 months.

12 MS. SELLERS:

13 Q. Yes or no, Mr. Bogilovic, is that a fair assessment of the extent

14 of your period of convalescence?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is it true that during this time period, that you were unable to

17 go to work on a daily basis but that you did try and maintain contact with

18 Nurija Jusofovic who was your deputy and now was appointed chief of the

19 civilian police?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. During the time period of your convalescence, did Akif Ustic visit

22 you?

23 A. Akif Ustic did visit me when I was in the hospital. Because that

24 -- his house was close to the hospital.

25 Q. Thank you. I would now ask you to look at the monitor at a

1 photograph. This is now called P17 -- I'm sorry, P517. Would you tell

2 the Trial Chamber if you recognise the person in blue in that photo.

3 A. This is Mr. Oric and Mr. Ustic.

4 Q. Is that the Mr. Ustic who you referred to in terms of his

5 appointment to the Srebrenica Municipal Staff and the person who visited

6 you when you were convalescing?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. For the record, the clip that the

10 witness is being referred to and which is on Sanction at moment is clocked

11 -- is taken from Exhibit P517?

12 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: And is clocked at 02 hours 35 minutes 8 seconds. It

14 shows the date of August 1992 - 8th, 1992 - and has the time 16 hours

15 eleven minutes.

16 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I think that that is in minutes and not

17 hours. It would be 2 minutes, 35 seconds.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Two minutes, 35 seconds, and 8 milliseconds

19 also. Yes. Thank you.

20 MS. SELLERS: Yes, you may remove the picture from the Sanction.

21 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, did Naser Oric also visit you during this time

22 period of your convalescence?

23 A. Yes, he visited me once in town in this house and he did visit me

24 once in the house where I was staying with my colleague.

25 Q. Now during the period in which you had to nurse your injury, did

1 the offices of the civilian police move out of the new territorial

2 building, territorial defence building?

3 A. When I was wounded, they were still in the staff building and

4 Nurija then moved to the old police station building while I was away.

5 Q. Now when you say the "old police station building," is that the

6 building where you worked when you were a police officer in Srebrenica?

7 A. That is the building where I worked for 20 years.

8 Q. Is that building also referred to as the SUP or the MUP?

9 A. Well, it had several names SUP, MUP because it used to be the

10 secretariat then it became the ministry, but it's the same thing, SUP or

11 MUP.

12 Q. And could you please explain to the Trial Chamber, where was the

13 military police located during this time period? Now we're speaking about

14 August or September 1992. Where were their offices located?

15 A. Their offices were on the ground floor and our offices were on the

16 first floor.

17 Q. Does that mean the offices of the military police were on the

18 first floor, the SUP or MUP, and the offices of the civilian -- I'm sorry

19 were on the ground floor, and the offices of the civilian police were on

20 the first floor?

21 A. You mentioned -- you said the civilian and civilian. The military

22 police was on the ground floor and the civilian police was upstairs.

23 Q. Thank you. I would like you to now look at a photo that is on

24 Sanctions. Mr. Bogilovic, can you please --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, I want to make sure that he is on Sanction.

1 He is on Sanction? All right.

2 MS. SELLERS:

3 Q. This is P446, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The witness is being shown a clip from P446,

5 clocked at 1 minute 14 seconds.2.

6 MS. SELLERS:

7 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, looking at this photograph, can you tell me what it

8 is a photograph of?

9 A. This photograph depicts the entrance, and to the right of the

10 entrance is the -- where the duty officer was, and this is also where the

11 military police was. And here, upstairs, was the civilian police.

12 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, is this a photograph of the SUP or the MUP

13 building?

14 A. This is, as you say yourself, the SUP or MUP building.

15 Q. The part of the photograph that indicates gray brick on the ground

16 level, which of the forces were located there; the military police or the

17 civilian place?

18 A. The military police was located on the ground floor.

19 Q. And the part of the photograph that appears to have a white

20 covering or facade, is that where the civilian police were located?

21 A. Yes, the civilian police was upstairs. Here, where the wall is

22 white.

23 Q. Now, is that where Mr. Halilovic worked, on the ground floor?

24 A. Mr. Halilovic was on the ground floor, that is where his police

25 force was and his duty officer. Duty service.

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MS. SELLERS: For the moment we can remove the photo.

3 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, would you please try and tell the Trial Chamber,

4 during the period of August, September or October, what, if you know, was

5 the reputation of Mr. Halilovic?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Had you ever heard any complaints or any things that were

8 favourably said about Mr. Halilovic, in terms of his function as komandir

9 of the military police?

10 A. Well, I could not really meddle in that, because the tasks were

11 divided between the civilian and the military police. At any rate, I was

12 unable to work at that time, so I couldn't do anything. I had problems

13 with my leg. I had sepsis two times.

14 Q. Did you ever, in September, October, November visit the SUP

15 building?

16 A. Yes, I did go there. On the 14th of October, I was invited by the

17 president to come and attend a meeting. I attended this meeting.

18 Q. Did you ever oversee or come and see what the work of Nurija

19 Jusofovic was at the SUP building during the time period of August,

20 September, or October?

21 A. Yes. From time to time, whenever I was able to do so, when

22 somebody would drive me there. But on most occasions Nurija would come

23 and see me.

24 Q. What was the relationship between Nurija Jusofovic and

25 Mr. Halilovic in terms of their professional relationship? How -- and

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1 also how well did they great along as professionals?

2 A. I don't think that they went along all that well, because there

3 was a little bit of arrogance on the part of Mr. Halilovic.

4 Q. Had you, as chief of public security or as a member of the War

5 Presidency, ever received or heard complaints about how Mr. Halilovic

6 carried out his function?

7 A. I did receive complaints from the citizens that he was acting

8 arrogant, that he would carry out searches and would not issue receipts,

9 and so on.

10 Q. As a former police officer of 20 years, did you think that that

11 was improper behavior or conduct for a police officer, whether military or

12 civilian?

13 A. Well, this was not proper for anyone, an ordinary citizen and let

14 alone a police officer.

15 Q. Did you ever speak to Mr. Halilovic during that time period, about

16 the complaints that you received?

17 A. If I tried to talk to him, he would refuse, because he really was

18 an arrogant person.

19 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, when you went to the MUP or SUP building in the

20 month of September or October, did you ever see Serb prisoners on the

21 ground floor of the building?

22 A. No. No, no. I would get in and I would pass through. I did not

23 go there very often, but I would always go straight upstairs, precisely

24 because of him.

25 Q. And when you say "him," are you referring to Mr. Halilovic?

1 A. I mean Mr. Halilovic.

2 Q. Did the civilian police detain Serb prisoners during the month of

3 September, October in 1992?

4 A. The civilian police, no, no. The civilian police could not do

5 that.

6 Q. So, is it your testimony the civilian police did not detain Serb

7 prisoners throughout the war or particularly between 19 -- April 1992

8 until March 1993 in Srebrenica municipality?

9 A. As for the civilian police, they certainly did not arrest Serbs or

10 detain them.

11 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I would briefly like to show a video

12 clip of the inside of the SUP building. We have seen it before but I

13 would just like to point out a couple of things.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

15 MS. SELLERS: I'm sorry, P -- it is P46.

16 Q. Mr. Halilovic, if you look at the image in front of you, would you

17 please tell me, do you recognise this image?

18 A. That's the staircase taking you upstairs.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. For the moment, for the record, the clip

20 that the witness is referring to is the one which is clocked at 3 minutes,

21 22 seconds, point 8. This is from Exhibit P46.

22 MS. SELLERS: P446, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: P446.

24 MS. SELLERS:

25 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, if one were to go up to those stairs, would they

1 then come to the offices of the civilian police?

2 A. Yes, that's right. They would go up and then it comes back.

3 Q. We're going to continue for just a couple of seconds.

4 [Videotape played]

5 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, do you see, on the left-hand side of this image, a

6 door and then you see what appears to be light or a door. Could you tell

7 the Trial Chamber, if you know, where that door leads. On the right-hand

8 side. I'm very sorry, Your Honour.

9 A. On the left. To my left. Probably you mean this. There's a

10 window over there. And this first door is the detention room, looking at

11 it from this angle.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So one moment. Stop, stop, stop. For the record,

13 the witness was being referred to a clip at 3 minutes, 41 seconds, point 6

14 or 7. And he has indicated the -- what appears to be a door at the

15 extreme right of the clip as being the entrance to the detention room.

16 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, might I have the arrow placer?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Exactly. The arrow, while you had said left,

18 the arrow was indicating right.

19 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And the witness was referring to the right.

21 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, could you please --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you see that arrow, Mr. Bogilovic? Can you see a

23 small --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see it.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that the entrance to the detention room that you

1 referred to -- referred us to before?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. That's where the duty officer

3 was.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So let's go the opposite direction now.

5 THE WITNESS: That's the detention room there.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So for the record, the door which is being indicated

7 by the witness as being the entrance to the detention room, is the first

8 one on the left-hand side of the scene or the photo, thank you.

9 MS. SELLERS:

10 Q. We'll continue just a little bit.

11 [Videotape played]

12 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, would you please look at this image in front of

13 you now. Is this how the -- is this -- would you please tell the Trial

14 Chamber what this image is.

15 A. These look like bars. I'm not quite clear what that is, bars,

16 because I know that there were -- there was a door to that particular

17 room.

18 Q. Mr. Bogilovic --

19 A. The only thing that this can be, could be a photograph from the

20 basement where there were some logs, wood was kept there.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. For the record, the witness is referring

22 to clip clocked at 3 minutes, 58 seconds, point 3.

23 MS. SELLERS:

24 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, when you worked at the police station, during your

25 20 years as a police officer, do you recognize or remember that room in

1 the police station?

2 A. I remember it well. There was a door. It had a door at the

3 entrance, and some appellate like a bed where they could lie down, and it

4 had bars on the window, so I'm not quite clear on what these bars are

5 here.

6 Q. Were those bars present when you retired in 1991 from the

7 Srebrenica police force on -- in that room?

8 A. When I went, they weren't there. The bars weren't there.

9 Q. Did you use this room when you were a police officer as a holding

10 cell, a detention cell, or a place to keep people who were arrested?

11 A. Yes, that's right. We did use the room for detaining people, for

12 detention. A holding cell. From different periods: For six hours, 12

13 hours, or 24 hours, depending on the offence that the person had

14 committed, whether the person was under the influence of alcohol, whether

15 they were drunk or not. Unless the court determined other detention

16 periods.

17 Q. And Mr. Bogilovic, when you detained persons in your 20 years as a

18 police officer, how would you secure them in that room so that they could

19 not leave on their own free will?

20 A. We would lock the door. There was a key and you would lock the

21 door. And if they were making any disturbances, shouting or making any

22 noise, you would have to tie them. If they were under the effects of

23 alcohol, then you would have to bring in a doctor to see that they hadn't

24 -- they weren't suffering from alcohol poisoning.

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bogilovic. We will continue.

1 [Videotape played]

2 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, do you recognise this room in the SUP building?

3 A. This is probably the toilet, the WC.

4 Q. Was there a bathroom there when you worked there during the

5 20-year period? Was there a bathroom in that room? I mean a toilet in

6 that room?

7 A. Not a bathroom.

8 Q. I mean a toilet in that bathroom.

9 A. A toilet, yes, there was a WC. Without a toilet seat. It was

10 just the type where you crouch down.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 A. You're welcome.

13 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, do you recognize these scenes in the building?

14 [Videotape played]

15 A. This is the door on the left-hand side as you enter the police

16 station, the entrance door. And that is where the administration was for

17 registration of your car, for your ID cards, for your --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop. Stop.

19 THE WITNESS: The treasury office, and so on.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Take me back a while.

21 [Videotape played]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, stop. Stop. The witness was being shown the

23 clip which is clocked at 4 minutes and 58 seconds point 3. Thank you.

24 MS. SELLERS:

25 Q. Do you recognise --

1 [Videotape played]

2 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, did Mirzet Halilovic have his offices on the first

3 floor in any of the rooms that we have seen on the video clip?

4 A. I don't think he had any special office. There was the duty

5 office. Had he had a separate office or cabinet, no, I don't think he

6 did. At least, I'm not aware of it.

7 Q. To your knowledge, did he work on that first floor, on that ground

8 floor of the SUP building?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to decide whether it is the first or the

10 ground.

11 MS. SELLERS: I'm sorry, the ground floor.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: The previous question referred to the first floor.

13 So I want to make sure that his answer is related to the first floor and

14 not to the ground floor.

15 Did Mr. Halilovic have an office in that building; and if he did,

16 on which floor was it?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The offices were of the military

18 police, they were --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Well, the witness said first floor and then he

20 said ground floor.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Ground floor.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It all belonged to them. Then up on

23 the story above was --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So can you tell us if Mr. Halilovic had an office at

25 ground floor level?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Personally, his own personal office,

2 you mean?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't know that he

5 had a special separate personal office. I really don't know about that.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: But he was based on the ground floor of that

7 building, not on the first floor.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know what you mean by

9 ground floor and first floor.

10 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I put the image back on the system.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the top part, it's the ground

12 floor. Are you on this here?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think if you show me exactly. Where would

14 Mr. Halilovic be, in the gray part or in the painted part?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the entrance. That's the

16 entrance. [Indicating] Just there where you show it. So to the right,

17 the window on the right, that was the duty officer's office, where

18 Halilovic and his duty police worked.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think that is enough. Let's move.

20 MS. SELLERS: Thank you.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record -- no, can I have that picture again,

22 please, sorry. For the record, the clip that the witness was referring to

23 is one clocked at 1 minute, 14 seconds, point 3. And he indicated the --

24 what appears to be the entrance to the building and to the window which,

25 as you look at the screen, is at the right-hand side of the -- of that

1 entrance.

2 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, did there come a time period when Mr. Halilovic was

4 placed under your authority or under your supervision, in September or

5 October of 1992?

6 A. The 14th of October, 1992, the president of the municipality

7 called me to attend a meeting. I went to the meeting and the meeting took

8 place in the cultural centre. And then I received a decision, in written

9 form, A4 format, saying that Mirzet Halilovic came under my command.

10 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber why Mirzet Halilovic would come

11 under your command? What were the circumstances that prompted such a

12 decision?

13 A. The main reason is something that the president should know, the

14 president who gave me the duty, because in the decision that I received it

15 says that it came into force immediately.

16 Q. Were you --

17 A. Most probably in order to control -- better control them, because

18 we -- we were in the same building.

19 Q. When you say "better control them," are you referring to the

20 military police?

21 A. Him. To him more.

22 Q. So you're referring to?

23 A. I meant him.

24 Q. You're referring to Mr. Halilovic?

25 A. Yes, I mean Mr. Halilovic.

1 Q. Were you aware of Mr. Halilovic's reputation then?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you put that question already.

3 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour, I was trying to get more specific

4 information.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Initially he told you that he didn't, but then in an

6 oblique manner he confirmed that he received various reports. Do you want

7 to --

8 MS. SELLERS: I want to ask one more specific question concerning

9 this.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

11 MS. SELLERS:

12 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, were you aware whether Mr. Halilovic was to have

13 been responsible for death or injury to Serb prisoners?

14 A. No, I didn't know about that.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's make this clear. Basically, in other words,

17 this Mr. Halilovic moved from under military command to under civilian

18 command. And for all intents and purposes this was a demotion for him.

19 Is that correct?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is correct. It was a demotion.

21 He was arrogant and didn't accept that, but when I received my

22 assignments, I called him and talked to him, but he refused it. He turned

23 a deaf ear and started doing things the way he thought they ought to be

24 done. And that wasn't something that I could take, so I took a piece of

25 paper and wrote down three or four -- I'm sorry, I don't have that -- I

1 wrote three or four pages full to my superior, that is to say the

2 president, and the president forwarded it on to the commander. And then

3 Mirzet was replaced.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.

5 MR. JONES: Just for the record, Your Honour, the witness didn't

6 say before that Mr. Halilovic was under military command. He was placed

7 under him.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: But if he is the komandir of the military police --

9 MR. JONES: Well, I wouldn't make any assumption of any nature of

10 that in the situation at the time, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think you are right, Mr. Jones. Let me ask

12 the question.

13 When Mr. Halilovic was komandir of the military police, who was he

14 answerable to? Who was he answerable to? Who was his immediate superior?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As a rule, to the army.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.

17 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, you have mentioned a meeting that took place on

19 October 14th that you were asked to attend. Was that a meeting of the War

20 Presidency?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Who else was in attendance at that meeting, if you remember?

23 A. The meeting was attended by everyone; the army and us.

24 Q. Do you know the reason that the meeting was called?

25 A. I don't know. All I do know is that the president told me that

1 there would be a meeting. Now, all the others, with their own

2 departments, they had a conversation.

3 Q. At that meeting, did they discuss the military and the civilian

4 police and discuss questions related to those two entities?

5 A. I think that the main topic of discussion was that the situation

6 ought to be settled, that is to say that the situation should be improved

7 and the organisation should be better, where that was warranted and

8 needed.

9 Q. When you say "situation," are you referring to the military police

10 or the civilian police?

11 A. Both. Because the civilians and the army, there were a lot of

12 people coming in. There was a shortage of food. Many problems to contend

13 with. And all of this led to a disruption of law and order.

14 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I would ask that the witness be shown

15 -- excuse me, Your Honour. Your Honour, we'll be looking at P84. And I

16 would ask, in the English translation, I'm going to be referring to pages

17 7 through 10. I'll be looking at the section where it has an ERN number

18 before the text, ERN 02115050. We might have the same problem of whether

19 that concludes the text or begins it, but just so the people can find

20 their place on page.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Usher, please, if you

22 could put page -- document 7 to Ms. Sellers?

23 MS. SELLERS: Yes. Starting with 7 and we will be going to page

24 10.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Yes. Page 7, please on

1 the ELMO. I can't translate the B/C/S.

2 MS. SELLERS:

3 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, would you agree that on the agenda of that meeting

4 was the organisation functioning in both the military and civilian

5 authorities and what is referred to as the free territory?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I would like --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you encountering any difficulty in finding what

9 you are being referred to, Mr. Bogilovic? Because if you need our help,

10 we will try and help you as much as we can.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like this section to be

12 shown to me.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Can I -- I don't know. Unless someone gives me the

14 text in the B/C/S version, which I don't have here...

15 Let's put -- which page is he looking at? Does it finish at the

16 top with 5050?

17 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, what I have given him, I don't know

18 whether you would like to have it, is the text that he looked at --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. It's not there.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: He needs to be looking at 5050.

21 MS. SELLERS: Yes. 5050.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right? A few lines from the top in 5050, you

23 see "agenda," and you are being asked to confirm that the agenda stated or

24 indicated, as item 1: "Organisation and functioning of the military and

25 civilian authorities in the free territory."

1 Have you found it?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: He confirms that, Ms. Sellers.

4 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, I would ask you to look at the following page,

6 which would have ERN number -- I'm sorry, it would be at the bottom of 50,

7 and you will see that there is a name that says Becir, and then there is

8 -- appears to be a statement.

9 In the English it comes after --

10 A. What's the number?

11 Q. It would still be on the page 50.

12 A. Begic.

13 Q. Yes. There are a list of people and then there is a paragraph

14 that begins: "Hierarchy. It discusses and assesses the war situation and

15 takes decisions. It is both the supreme authority and the supreme

16 command. Commanding takes places through the staff. It is directly the

17 command of the military police --" there are some words crossed out --

18 "but at the same time military police is subordinated to the armed

19 forces." Do you see that?

20 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I have a proper --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me help him. Mr. Bogilovic, I heard you say a

22 few seconds ago "Becir." It's the three or four lines above that.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Three or so lines -- yes, Madam Vidovic?

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have an objection to

1 the way that questions are phrased, because she is interpreting the text

2 in -- she is giving the text an interpretation. I would now like to ask

3 the witness to read the text.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Becir, here where it says Becir,

5 because -- well, this is not really very legible, that's the problem.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bogilovic, the three or four lines before, do

7 you see there, one after the other, commander, chief, deputy, assistant

8 for security, assistant for POV, assistant for logistics, assistant for

9 engineers? Do you see those words, that list?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Start reading immediately after that list, from the

12 word "Hierarchy" until you reach to "Becir." Start reading, please.

13 "Hierarchy."

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it says hierarchy. But I can

15 read some of the words, but some of the words I simply cannot read. For

16 instance, the third word here, it says "assess" the situation.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: If he can't read it, he can't read it. We can do

18 nothing about that. I'm not going to force the witness to try and guess

19 what there is.

20 Read it for yourself, to yourself first. And then tell us whether

21 you can actually tell us what the substance of -- what it is or whether

22 you would prefer to say: Sorry, I can't read it, I can't decipher the

23 words.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would prefer for somebody who is

25 able to read it, to read it. Because I simply cannot. I see here that it

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1 says Becir and then it says "because." I probably mentioned a reason for

2 something, and I would really like to know what it is that I said.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Forget "Becir." We are interested in the lines that

4 are before Becir, not what Becir is reported as having said there.

5 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may be of

7 assistance, perhaps the best thing would be to put this portion of the

8 minutes on the ELMO. It is, in fact, quite clear and the interpreters can

9 read it out to the witness.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think that is --

11 MS. SELLERS: I'm grateful for the suggestion.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: That's a very practical suggestion, Madam Vidovic,

13 for which we are grateful.

14 Let's put on the ELMO -- do you have it on Sanction as well? Or

15 not? So if you have it on Sanction, we can see it on Sanction, just

16 colour, highlight that paragraph and then zoom in on it, please.

17 Mr. Bogilovic. Mr. Bogilovic.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Look at the monitor. Look at the monitor. Yes.

20 Yes. You need to select from the second line, those four lines above

21 "Becir." You see "hierarkija."

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. That is the first word.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Now try to read the rest, if you can. If you

24 cannot, we will ask the interpreters to read it.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the interpreter

1 to read it.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. There are so many, I don't know who will be

3 shouldering the responsibility.

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters say that they cannot read it

5 either and would somebody else like to have a go, if they know what it

6 says.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: The only clever one that we have here is you, Madam

8 Vidovic. Don't take it that I am asking you or that I am forcing you to

9 read it. I mean, please don't --

10 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, might I suggest, because if necessary,

11 I mean, we have gone through this before with the CLS interpreter who read

12 the text from this original to him, whether that could be an option. I

13 certainly don't want to make Defence counsel to participate --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think that would be an extreme help,

15 obviously. But obviously I want to make it clear that I am not asking

16 you, but I would gladly accept if you did. So that's the position.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is an honour for me

18 to be able to assist Mr. Bogilovic. I think that what it reads is the

19 following: "Hierarchy. Analyses and assesses the war situation, makes

20 decisions. It is the supreme authority and the supreme command. It

21 exercises command through the staff. The immediate COM --" that is an

22 abbreviation of the military police -- "but the VP, military police, is at

23 the same time subordinate to the staff of the OS, the armed forces." Then

24 it says: "Becir, because of the non-familiarity with the situation, the

25 problems, we established the war staff, the War Presidency, and the

1 operations staff. The decisions of any of these organs are not

2 implemented. We have to establish a peoples' court. The armed forces, in

3 fact, created disruptions or broke the law and order."

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Madam Vidovic, for your not

5 only cooperation but valuable help.

6 MS. SELLERS: Thank you very much.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.

8 MS. SELLERS:

9 Q. Yes, Mr. Bogilovic, the name Becir, does that refer to you in

10 these minutes?

11 A. Most probably, because I was the only one.

12 Q. You mean the only Becir at the meeting of the War Presidency and

13 the OS staff?

14 A. Yes. I was the only Becir there.

15 Q. Do you recall responding in a like manner to the issue being

16 raised as to the military police and whose command it came under?

17 A. Up until that time, it was under the military command. But the

18 discussion was, at that time, that it should continue to be so. And what

19 led to the situation in which I was in fact a commander to them, that they

20 were in fact subordinate to me, it's a different matter.

21 I really cannot give you an answer. Probably it was in order to

22 be able to control them more easily and to be able to establish order.

23 This meeting was in fact quite useful. And from that time on, the

24 situation with the law and order and discipline was much better.

25 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, I would like to ask you to look further down on the

1 document that would end in 51.

2 MS. SELLERS: It's on page 8 in the English.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What I suggest is that on the ELMO we have the

4 English translation and on Sanction we stick to the B/C/S and any

5 particular part that you refer the witness to, please we'll zoom in.

6 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: As much as we can.

8 MS. SELLERS: I am referring the witness to the part that begins

9 with Nedred and concludes with a statement by Naser, but in the English

10 version ends with the word "command."

11 JUDGE AGIUS: On the ELMO we need the middle of the page, Usher.

12 MS. SELLERS:

13 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, are you able to read that part of the original

14 document? Starting with Nedred, then the statements of what appears to be

15 Mirza, and then Naser. Nedred.

16 MR. JONES: It's Nedzad in the original.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Pardon, Mr. Jones?

18 MR. JONES: Sorry, rather than Nedred, it is actually Nedzad in

19 the original.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know, I can't read it myself. The top line,

21 first line, first word is Nedzad or Nedred? Mr. Jones? If you look at

22 Sanction, first line, first word, is it Nedred or Nedzad colon? No.

23 Leave it where it was.

24 MR. JONES: We have Nedzad in the B/C/S version which we have, and

25 we understand that is what it is in the original.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says Nedzad here. The decisions

2 are made --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Who would Nedzad be?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nedzad Bektic.

5 MS. SELLERS:

6 Q. Yes. Mr. Bogilovic, are you able to read what Nedzad Bektic said?

7 A. I would like somebody else to read it.

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that somebody needs to

9 read it for us to interpret.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only read "the decisions are

11 made," and I cannot read what follows after that.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I have no solution. Yes, Madam Vidovic.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will be pleased to be

14 of assistance. "Decisions are made by the commander not by the staff."

15 Then it says: "Mirza: The war staff should be expanded to

16 include members of the operations staff.

17 "Naser: All the current problems are caused by the organisation.

18 All this boils down to the fact that everybody should do their own job,

19 and later on, you can squabble about the government, the power. You

20 should get smart. Let's make an organisation to fortify ourselves and to

21 save ourselves. It is possible that there is ammunition in Fakovici and

22 it hasn't been seized. If we want to be an army, we must know what the

23 order is and we must have the commands."

24 Should I continue?

25 MS. SELLERS: Yes, I was going to place that other part now on

1 Sanctions and which will be listing --

2 Q. I'm going to ask Mr. Bogilovic first, does he remember that part

3 of the discussion at the meeting of the 14th of October, 1992.

4 A. I know that the purpose of this meeting was to resolve certain

5 issues and to improve the situation.

6 Q. And after that discussion, did they try and put order in by naming

7 the persons who were in charge of certain areas? Do you remember that?

8 A. I think that the answer is, yes, that several people were

9 appointed to different tasks.

10 MS. SELLERS: I would just like for that next section to be placed

11 on Sanctions. I believe that possibly Mr. Bogilovic will be able to

12 recognize this, it is names and functions.

13 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, there appears to be a name here that says in the

14 English translation "Osman." Could you please just, if you are able, to

15 read that and then the list of names down to number 8.

16 A. I know Osman. He was the chief. I would like to ask somebody to

17 read this and then I can comment on it.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

19 MS. SELLERS: Madam Vidovic, I thank you for the last reading and

20 I thank you in advance for this one.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] "Osman: Let's make things

22 specific. Let's put names forward for various structures. Avdic -

23 president (Hajrudin); president of the IO Executive Committee - Hamdija;

24 secretary Ankic Esad; chief for economy remains the same; secretary of the

25 secretariat for NO, National Defence, Hasanovic Suljo; chief of the CZ,

1 civilian protection staff, Jusuf Halilovic; chief of the public security

2 service, Becir (military police - Mirza; civilian police - Nurija);

3 commander of the staff - Naser (not a member of the War Presidency);

4 deputy - Zulfo -- deputy commander - Zulfo."

5 And then one line below: "The staff of the armed forces --" shall

6 I continue? Shall I continue?

7 MS. SELLERS: No. Thank you very much. That is sufficient for

8 our purposes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, once more.

10 MS. SELLERS:

11 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bogilovic, do you recall at that time period that

12 it was discussed at the meeting --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. -- both --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Finish your question, please.

16 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

17 Q. -- military police and civilian police were linked to the chief of

18 public security, you, Becir.

19 A. At this meeting, and that was on the 14th of October, the

20 president told me, or rather, the president of the War Presidency that I

21 would be superior to Mirzet, as I was to Nurija and all the others who

22 were appointed. Some appointments were confirmed, others were added. And

23 according to this, it was decided that the staff of the War Presidency was

24 -- now, the question was who was superior to whom and who was subordinate

25 to whom? We didn't know that.

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bogilovic. Would you just confirm that prior to

2 the 14th of October, Mirzet Halilovic was not your subordinate.

3 A. He wasn't my subordinate, no.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues]... was he in the chain of

5 command of the military prior to him being placed under you?

6 A. Mirzet was appointed on the 1st of July 1992. And this is the

7 14th of October here that we're talking about, 14th of October, 1992.

8 Q. Yes. Would you just please answer my question, Mr. Bogilovic. Do

9 you know whether he was in the military chain of command prior to being

10 placed under you?

11 A. Well, yes.

12 Q. Thank you. We can remove the document from the witness at this

13 point. Mr. Bogilovic, did you write orders as the chief of public

14 security?

15 A. I wrote orders to my police. I wrote orders about movements, the

16 movement of citizens at that time, and so on and so forth, because of the

17 shelling, so I issued orders.

18 Q. And did you write orders pursuant to the legal authority that you

19 were given to exercise your function as chief of public security?

20 A. I think that was it, yes. As far as I was able to and on the

21 basis of what I did before, I continued the work that I had done before,

22 because if you felt the situation needed something to be done, if there

23 was sources of shelling, then I would write posters saying that people

24 shouldn't move around between such-and-such hours. This was confirmed

25 later on when Mr. Morillon arrived with his elite. He provided an APC,

1 because I went from the upper part to the lower part and used a megaphone,

2 a loudspeaker.

3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bogilovic.

4 MS. SELLERS: I would like to show the witness this last document

5 before we conclude, Your Honours. This is P254. The witness is being

6 shown the original.

7 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, I would ask you to look at the document. And is

8 this an order that you issued together with Hajrudin Avdic on the 14th of

9 October, 1992?

10 A. This order, yes, it is. It's an order that was one of the

11 subjects discussed at the meeting on the 14th of October, that law and

12 order had been disrupted, and the decision was made at the time to go into

13 action because, from the Zepa area, citizens were coming in, bringing in

14 weapons and selling them for food. And then there were certain persons

15 who were in possession of weapons without having permits. And all weapons

16 had to be registered.

17 So this was the decision that followed. This was what we had to

18 do, to deal with the situation. So we issued orders that all those who

19 had weapons and did not have permission to do so, were to hand over their

20 weapons to the nearest unit and they would be issued a receipt in return

21 for the weapons turned in.

22 Q. And so therefore was the nearest unit, could that be a military

23 unit or a civilian unit? Yes or no, please.

24 A. At Zepa, you mean?

25 Q. I'm asking you to -- referring you back to the order that you

1 issued. And if you look on the first paragraph that comes under "We

2 hereby order..." the last sentence, I'm asking you whether that could be

3 to the nearest unit, be it military or civilian police.

4 Mr. Bogilovic, is that what it says in the order that you issued?

5 A. This order was issued because I, as of this date, was superior

6 both to the military police, or rather, Mirza, so that this order was

7 supposed -- Mirzet was supposed to act upon this order, as well as Nurija

8 Jusofovic.

9 Q. Just very briefly, that is your signature on the bottom left-hand

10 side of the document?

11 A. Yes, it is, and it is I who am issuing the order, or rather, the

12 two of us. We are issuing orders that anyone in possession of a firearm

13 must hand them over to the nearest units. Of course, a receipt would be

14 issued, et cetera.

15 Q. And that's Mr. Avdic's signature on the bottom right-hand side of

16 the document?

17 A. Yes, it is. He signs first, because he's the top man, and then I

18 sign second, but we both sign this.

19 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour. I could ask for the

20 document to be taken from the witness, and today I will have no further

21 questions and I must inform the Trial Chamber that we will have to

22 continue with the witness on Monday.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I understand. I understand that. And given

24 what you have just said and also what Madam Vidovic said in the beginning

25 of the sitting, I look at Mr. Wubben and I suppose you will need to put

1 your experience and wisdom and decide what the position will be like next

2 week. Because, as I see it, there is no way we can finish with this

3 witness on Monday. And if we don't finish with this witness on Monday,

4 how much more -- how much longer do you think you will require,

5 Ms. Sellers? Because I have tried to follow on the basis of the list of

6 documents that you indicated, and we are past halfway, but...

7 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Definitely.

9 MS. SELLERS: I hoped to be much further than halfway. I think we

10 might have to see if the Prosecution can arrange to have an interpreter

11 with him to facilitate that. We're grateful for Defence counsel's

12 assistance. And I will see if there is any manner in which we can

13 possibly not go forward on some of the evidence that we would have called

14 from this witness, but hopefully it would not be to the detriment of the

15 Prosecution case.

16 I do have to say that we are bound to present our case fully.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. You say you require five, six hours, that is

18 basically two days, you know. You will get the five, six hours if you

19 need them. This is an important witness. I'm not going to restrict --

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour. Your Honour, I will

21 need at least five hours. At least five or six hours. It's a fairly

22 lengthy process. Because we have to make pauses for the interpretation,

23 of course, and having heard the testimony of this witness so far, I don't

24 think we will need less time, I think we will probably need more time. So

25 I don't believe we will complete this -- well, in three days, yes, but I

1 don't think we will get through an additional witness.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Mr. Wubben, I am going to leave this entirely to

3 you and you will report back to the Trial Chamber on Monday. I'm sure

4 that with your experience and your wisdom you will know exactly where you

5 stand and whether you would need to have the next witness here in The

6 Hague. Certainly I want to avoid a situation whereby we start the next

7 witness and then send him home for a fortnight or so and then have him

8 back.

9 That is to be avoided at all costs. So I am going to leave it.

10 You don't need to say anything now. I know I can put my trust in your

11 hands and we will get good results afterwards.

12 So having said that, Mr. Bogilovic, you've heard what has been

13 just said. You will definitely be here Monday and Tuesday, if not also

14 Wednesday. This is very tiring. I agree that this is tiring. So I

15 kindly ask you to bear with us, because it is -- giving testimony is -- is

16 no fun. We will try to be of assistance to you as much as we can. In the

17 meantime, try to take advantage of the weekend and rest as much as you

18 can, because you have a long journey ahead of you next week, this coming

19 week when we start again on Monday. If at any time you feel tired, please

20 do draw our attention and we will take that into consideration.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So we will reconvene Monday at 9.00 in

23 the morning. Now, 9.00 in the morning I have another initial appearance

24 -- 8.00 in the morning I have another initial appearance. From the looks

25 of it, I should be able to finish it by 9.00, but it might take me an

1 extra half hour. So we might start at half past nine on Monday rather

2 than at nine. That's the position. All right. I will be starting at

3 8.00, so I will be worse off than the rest of you. Thank you.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.05 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Monday, the 21st day of March,

6 2005, at 9.00 a.m.

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