1 Friday, 16 September 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, could you call the case,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

8 IT-03-68, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam.

10 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own language?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, ladies and gentlemen,

12 good morning. I can follow the proceedings in my own language.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Oric, and good morning to you.

14 Appearances for the Prosecution.

15 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours, and also good morning to

16 the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel for the Prosecution. I

17 am here together with co-counsel, Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio,

18 Ms. Patricia Sellers, and our case manager, Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben, and good morning to you and

20 your team.

21 Appearances for Naser Oric.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I'm

23 Vasvija Vidovic, together with Mr. John Jones I represent Mr. Naser Oric.

24 We're joined by our legal assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic, and our case

25 manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good morning to you

2 and your team.

3 Any preliminaries?

4 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.

5 MR. JONES: Just one, Your Honour, which is in the absence of the

6 witness we wanted to put on the record that in terms of P575, an exhibit

7 that was used yesterday and a document which may be used today which is

8 02116778 to 02116783, we challenge the authenticity of those documents.

9 According to receipt 32 of disclosure it's Serb-sources material and we

10 would want more details of the chain of custody and we may request to

11 inspect the originals. But I just wanted to state that now for the

12 record.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime -- but on this -- I'll raise this at

14 some other point in another time so as not to take time off today's

15 sitting.

16 Any further preliminaries? I see none. All right. We can

17 proceed. In the meantime while she is escorting, we handed down the Rule

18 92 bis, as you know, decision yesterday. We received the Prosecution

19 response regarding protective measures motion and we also received the

20 translation for -- of document C5. Right. I have also arranged for an

21 appointment with a member of the registrar to have a written statement as

22 to what procedure they have adopted in the past when documents were --

23 left this Tribunal for examination.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I understand it was done in at least three

1 occasions, so -- and then I will come back to you when I have that

2 available.

3 MR. JONES: Yes, I wonder if in light of that, Your Honour, we

4 indicated yesterday that we would submit our motion today. It might be

5 prudent to wait to see what the registry's practice is --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

7 MR. JONES: -- if that's okay.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good morning to you, Madam Sinanovic.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Would you please stand up. On behalf of the

11 Tribunal I would like to welcome you to this Tribunal, to this courtroom.

12 You are going to be a witness for the Prosecution in this case instituted

13 against Naser Oric as a Defence witness in this case instituted against

14 Naser Oric. My name is Carmel Agius and I come from the Mediterranean

15 island of Malta. I am flanked on my right by Judge Hendrik Brydensholt of

16 the Kingdom of Denmark, and to my left I have Judge Professor Albin Eser

17 from Germany. We are presiding over this trial. Since you are here to

18 give evidence our Rules require that before you start giving evidence you

19 make a solemn declaration which is contained in a piece of paper that is

20 going to be given to you now. This is solemn declaration equivalent to an

21 oath, an undertaking, a solemn undertaking, that in the course of your

22 truth you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

23 truth. Please take the text in your hand, read it out loud, and that will

24 be your solemn undertaking with us.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I shall

1 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam. Please make yourself

3 comfortable. Today the two parties, Defence and Prosecution, together

4 with us, we will be making a big effort to try and finish with your

5 testimony today, and that would enable you to go back home as early as

6 possible. We need your help, too, because otherwise you will be here at

7 least until Monday. And your help will consist in trying to answer all

8 questions as brief -- as briefly as possible, as precisely, as truthfully,

9 but also as concisely, as briefly as possible. Don't try to give more

10 information than you are asked for. And if there are questions that you

11 can answer with a mere yes or no, then please do so. And if you need to

12 explain any further, ask our permission to explain further and I will give

13 you permission.

14 The first series of questions will come, of course, from the

15 Defence side, since you are a Defence witness. It's Mr. Jones who will be

16 examining you in chief. He will then be followed by Mr. Wubben up on

17 cross-examination. Your responsibility is to answer all questions,

18 irrespective of who is putting the questions to you, in a truthful manner

19 and to the best of my ability.

20 Mr. Jones.

21 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 WITNESS: SUHRA SINANOVIC

23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 Examined by Mr. Jones:

25 Q. And good morning, Ms. Sinanovic.

1 A. Good morning.

2 Q. Please give the Court your full name, first of all.

3 A. Suhra Sinanovic.

4 Q. And please tell me if the following details are correct. First,

5 that you were born on the 24th of February, 1965, in Potcaus in Bratunac

6 municipality?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You enter a primary school and high school in Bratunac?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Before the war broke out you traded drinks for the company

11 Prokuplje and you worked from your home?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Your husband's name was Muriz Sinanovic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You have two children, a boy born on the 1st of December, 1986,

16 Munir?

17 A. [No interpretation]

18 Q. And a daughter who was born on the 25th of January, 1990, called

19 Emina?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, do you work as a secretary for Women of Podrinje, an

22 association called Women of Podrinje?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you just tell us what that association is?

25 A. It is an association taking care of the affairs with regard to

1 missing persons in the Bratunac area between 1992 and 1995.

2 Q. And did you lose any family members in that period, 1992 to 1995?

3 A. I lost 23 members of my family.

4 Q. Now, at the start of the war were you living in Bjelovac?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And before the war, was Bjelovac Muslim, Serb, or mixed?

7 A. Mixed.

8 Q. How many Muslims were there in Bjelovac in 1992? And I'm not

9 talking just about the centre, I'm talking --

10 A. About 200.

11 Q. Is that 200 people or 200 houses?

12 A. 200 people. And there were 40 Muslim houses.

13 Q. Before the war among the inhabitants of Bjelovac, did you divide

14 the village into a Serb Bjelovac and a non-Serb Bjelovac?

15 A. No, never.

16 Q. And how many Muslim houses were there in the centre of Bjelovac?

17 You've told us that there were 40 in the area, but how much in the real

18 centre of the village?

19 A. In the centre of Bjelovac there were 11 Muslim houses and six

20 Muslim holiday homes, secondary residences.

21 Q. And your house, was that only in a Muslim section of town or did

22 you have Serb neighbours?

23 A. My house was in a mixed section of town because Bjelovac was a

24 mixed town. My next-door neighbour was Rado Milovanovic, and on the

25 other side my next-door neighbour was Rade Ilic.

1 Q. Now, please answer with a yes or no whether the following people

2 has houses in Bjelovac. First of all Hajrudin Begzadic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Sead Sinanovic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Izet Osmanovic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Juso Efendic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Rifet Dautbasic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And were there other Muslim houses besides those that I've

13 mentioned in the centre of Bjelovac?

14 A. Yes. There was the house of Muriz Sinanovic, Rahmana Sinanovic,

15 the Alica's house, and the Efendic family house.

16 Q. And these people, they were all known, were they, to the Serb

17 inhabitants of Bjelovac?

18 A. They were.

19 Q. Do you know the houses of the people with the surname Mujic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Were those houses in Bjelovac, not the centre, strictly speaking,

22 but in the Bjelovac village?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And were those people Serb or Muslim?

25 A. Muslims.

1 Q. And do you know the houses of the people with the surname Jahic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And again, were their houses in Bjelovac and were they Serb or

4 Muslim?

5 A. Their houses were in Bjelovac and they were Muslims.

6 Q. And finally, do you know the people with the surname Lolic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And the same question: Were the houses in Bjelovac and were they

9 Serb or Muslim?

10 A. Their houses were in Bjelovac and they're Muslims.

11 Q. All right. Now, among the inhabitants of Bjelovac, Serbs and

12 Muslims, was it ever considered or said that those houses I've just

13 mentioned of Mujic, Jahic, and Lolic, were outside of Bjelovac, for

14 example in Zaluzje?

15 A. No. They were always in Bjelovac.

16 Q. And do you know an area called Jovanovici?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is Jovanovici a hamlet of its own separate from Bjelovac and

19 Sikiric, or is it part of either of those villages?

20 A. That's kind of separate because it was a family name, so that's

21 why it was called Jovanovici and it's between Bjelovac and another

22 locality --

23 THE INTERPRETER: But the interpreter didn't catch the name.

24 MR. JONES:

25 Q. What's the other locality, apart from Bjelovac, that you

1 mentioned, where Jovanovici is situated?

2 A. Those six Jovanovics' houses, they were called -- the hamlet was

3 called Jovanovici because there were several houses belonging to the

4 people called Jovanovic and that's why it was called like that.

5 MR. JONES: That's fine. I can clarify.

6 Q. What's on the other side of Jovanovici if you're going towards

7 Skelani?

8 A. Sikiric, in the direction of Skelani.

9 Q. All right. I think that clarifies it.

10 Do you know Slavka Matic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is he illiterate to your knowledge?

13 A. She is not illiterate. She can read and write because she used to

14 come to my house. We would watch films and read newspapers and magazines

15 together. So as far as I know she is not illiterate.

16 Q. And why would watching films show you that she's not illiterate?

17 A. Because we were sitting together and she could read things in the

18 screen and also we used to read the papers or magazines and we would

19 clarify and explain things to one another.

20 Q. When you say "reading things on the screen," are you talking about

21 subtitles or are you talking about titles on the screen? What are you

22 referring to?

23 A. Whatever appeared written on the screen.

24 Q. Okay. Where was her house?

25 A. Her house was 300 metres away from my mine in Bjelovac.

1 Q. Okay. So it was not in Jovanovici?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And earlier I asked you about Hajrudin Begzadic. Can you tell us

4 whether he had any health problems before the war?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Yes, what did he have?

7 A. He had head surgery before the war and he had pains in his right

8 leg and he couldn't move about very easily. And he didn't do his military

9 service because he had problems with his leg, first of all, so he was

10 deemed unfit. And then later on he had surgery on his head.

11 Q. And those problems you've described, did he have them, to your

12 knowledge, in 1992?

13 A. Both in 1992 and 1995.

14 Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned one of your neighbours was Rade Ilic.

15 In early 1992 did you ever notice any unusual incidents around his house?

16 A. Yes. I was putting clothes out to dry when a car drove by and a

17 teacher called Sarac, I can't remember the rest of his name, came. He

18 used to teach in Bjelovac, and he came with Rade's relative and he called

19 Rade. He was not there, but his wife came out, she was called Rosa Ilic

20 and they were taking rifles and uniforms, camouflage uniforms, out of the

21 car. It was all new and wrapped in cellophane. And they were getting the

22 ammunition out of the car as well. And he said, Okay, Roso, this is for

23 Rado to see that his cousin has arms, too, and not only himself. And they

24 took everything into Rado's house.

25 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us when this was in terms of the month?

1 A. It was in April 1992.

2 Q. And you mentioned rifles and uniforms, camouflage uniforms. Was

3 there anything else which was taken out of the car?

4 A. Rifles, uniform, and ammunition, and white belts. Those military

5 belts.

6 Q. And is this something you saw with your own eyes?

7 A. Yes, I myself saw all that because it was about 5 metres away,

8 because there is just a fence between our two properties.

9 Q. And around this time, April 1992, were there any -- any incidents

10 which made you feel insecure?

11 A. Yes. At some point every evening at around 10.00 when it was

12 already dark, we could hear screams and shots being fired from the banks

13 of the river Drina. And they would take people to the banks of the river,

14 the beaches along the river, and they would be taken to the river and they

15 would be shot, and the bodies would be thrown into the river to be washed

16 away. It was terrible. We were all in fear and expecting a knock on the

17 door at any minute and expecting to be dragged down to the river as well.

18 Q. Now, you mentioned this area, Ledine. Where is that in relation

19 to Bjelovac?

20 A. It is just below the houses in Bjelovac, between the houses and

21 the river.

22 Q. And do you know of any people who disappeared in this way, the

23 names of any people?

24 A. Yes, I do. I do know two who perished at Ledine. Kadrija who

25 used to be a police officer, or rather -- no, Kadrija and Fehim, and Fehim

1 was the police officer, and Kadrija's wife walked past my house and she

2 was crying and she was saying that Kadrija had been taken in the direction

3 of Drina from their house in Bratunac [as interpreted] and she was looking

4 for the body in order to be able to organise a burial. And the man's name

5 was Kadrija Jakupovic.

6 Q. And for the record, Fehim, the police officer, do you know his

7 name?

8 A. I do, Kurtovic, Fehim Kurtovic.

9 Q. Again, at this time were there any incidents on the road which

10 made you fear for your safety?

11 A. Yes. It went on this terrible fear for a number of days. It was

12 terribly scary to be in the streets of Bjelovac. There were three Golf

13 cars, a red one, a white one, and a yellow one, and in every car there was

14 a uniformed girl and there was a rifle sticking out of the window and the

15 muffler would have been taken off. So it made so much noise, I mean the

16 cars, and it was so scary and we hardly dared get into our own backyards.

17 And it went on for a number of days and they would drive around three or

18 four times a day, and there was a girl, a uniformed girl, in every car.

19 Q. And were these, to your knowledge, Serbs or Muslims?

20 A. As far as we knew, they were Serbs, but Serbs had uniforms and

21 arms; we didn't have anything and we didn't know anything about it.

22 Because those Golf cars had been stolen from the Muslims in Bratunac, all

23 three cars. I forgot the name of the rightful owners, but all of the cars

24 had been taken away from the Muslims in Bratunac.

25 Q. So you actually knew the rightful owners of those cars, even if

1 you can't remember the names now?

2 A. I did know, but this was a long time ago.

3 Q. Now, did there come a time when you actually no longer felt

4 comfortable sleeping in your house at night?

5 A. Yes. We were all living in fear. We didn't dare go out. And one

6 night when we went to bed at around 10.00 in the evening, Slavoljub

7 Filipovic and my next-door neighbour called Rade Ilic called my husband,

8 Muriz Sinanovic, and the windows were open so I got up as well. I could

9 see them standing there in camouflage uniforms carrying rifles and they

10 asked where Muriz was, and I said that he had gone to bed. And they said

11 that he should come out and not switch the lights on, and that's what I

12 told him to do. And he went out of the house. He was standing at the

13 stairs in his pyjamas in the dark and they talked for a long time and I

14 was getting ever more nervous and I feared that they would take him away

15 and because of this nervousness and because of my fear, I just had to go

16 in the direction of the door and I could here Slavoljub Filipovic trying

17 to convince, in a rather forceful way, trying to convince my husband. And

18 he was telling him that he wanted his lorry and Muriz said he wouldn't do

19 that and he said that it would be given to TO Fakovici or Skelani. And he

20 said it would be much for you to give the lorry to us rather than for it

21 to be taken away by total strangers because the White Eagles and Arkan's

22 men had arrived in the area as well and they said it's better to give it

23 to us than it be given to them. And then when my husband came back in the

24 house he gave me a full account. But in the meantime I switched the

25 lights on and Slavoljub shouted at me, switched the lights off, and I did

1 and then I went back in. And after five minutes my husband went back in

2 and he told me and my father-in-law what the reason for this visit was.

3 Q. All right. Thank you. Firstly, can you tell us roughly when this

4 was?

5 A. That was in early May.

6 Q. 1992 for the record.

7 A. 1992.

8 Q. And you've mentioned Slavoljub Filipovic. Did you know him before

9 the war?

10 A. Yes. Slavoljub Filipovic, after I got married - this was several

11 days before the war - he used to be my neighbour. But we also know each

12 other from the secondary school. He is two years older than I am so he

13 completed the same secondary school but just two years ahead of me.

14 Q. And was he married to your knowledge and, if so, what was his

15 spouse's name?

16 A. Yes. He was married. His wife's name is Mira Filipovic.

17 Q. And if you can help us with this, what was he like before the war

18 in terms of his personality, as far as you knew him?

19 A. To the extent that I knew him, he was always somebody with very

20 strong nationalist sentiments. He was a hooligan and he was known to

21 create disorder at school and elsewhere.

22 Q. And where did he -- you've said that he was in a neighbour, so I

23 take it that he lived in Bjelovac?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. If you were to say or if it were to be said that he lived in

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 Loznica, would that be correct?

2 A. No. Perhaps he was born in the village of Loznica; however, he

3 resided in Bjelovac in my neighbourhood.

4 Q. Now, you've told him -- you've told us how you saw him in uniform

5 and with a rifle on this occasion.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You mentioned this conversation about the truck and the

8 possibility of it being taken by the TO. Did -- did Slavoljub Filipovic

9 say to your husband what, if anything, they planned to do with the truck

10 if they took it, Slavoljub and the other man?

11 A. No. They just said to him that they should take it and write down

12 TO Fakovici or TO Skelani in order to prevent some other persons from

13 taking the truck away. Because another Opel Kadet had been confiscated by

14 somebody else. And in addition to that they also said that there was a

15 lot of newly arrived person in the village, Arkan's men and White Eagles.

16 Q. Right. So Slavoljub Filipovic was proposing to take this truck

17 and to write or paint on it, I suppose, "TO Fakovici" or "TO Skelani." Is

18 that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. On that occasion, was Slavoljub Filipovic's behaviour towards your

21 husband appropriate in your opinion or in your perception?

22 A. No. Because once I got to the door and I wanted to turn the light

23 on, he -- his attitude towards me was so aggressive and improper. And my

24 husband was very much afraid. His voice was shaking.

25 Q. Were there any other occasions in early 1992 that you saw

1 Slavoljub Filipovic in uniform?

2 A. Yes. That was in early May. Jahic Mujo came to the shop where he

3 worked and it was the shop selling agricultural equipment. Slavoljub

4 Filipovic with another seven or eight men was there. Some of them wore

5 camouflage uniforms and some of them wore olive-drab uniforms. They

6 stopped Mujo from entering his shop. Slavoljub Filipovic was very

7 insolent in his attitude and he told Mujo that Muslims were no longer

8 allowed to work in Bjelovac and that Mujo should surrender the keys to the

9 shop. Mujo had to obey because he saw that all of these men were wearing

10 uniforms, so Mujo surrendered the keys and Slavoljub took over the keys

11 from them. So Slavoljub's attitude and behaviour was awful.

12 Q. Thank you. On this occasion was Mujo Jahic, to your knowledge,

13 giving anything away that was socially owned?

14 A. [No interpretation]

15 MR. JONES: Sorry, the witness replied "ne," but it wasn't

16 interpreted.

17 Q. Could you repeat your answer, please.

18 A. No.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Jones.

20 MR. JONES: Thank you.

21 Q. Now, did you stay in your house in the evenings, in the nights?

22 Did you continue to spend the nights there or did there come a time when

23 you moved and spent your nights somewhere else?

24 A. Yes. I remained in the house. It was daytime. A car, Jugo car,

25 came towards -- in front of the house of Rade Ilic. It has Serbian

1 licence plates, licence plates from Loznica. They took the children.

2 Rade Ilic was there, his wife Rosa Ilic, and her mother Cvijeta. I came

3 up to them and said, Why are they taking these children away from their

4 homes? And Rade replied that he was afraid of gunfire that would scare

5 the children. I said to him, Rade, my children are younger than your

6 children. What's going to happen to my children? And he said to me, Take

7 your children somewhere else, to Loznica or elsewhere. If you are afraid

8 you can sleep in our house.

9 Q. Did you take up that invitation?

10 A. Yes, yes, I did. I accepted the invitation. I sent the children

11 and my father-in-law to Loznik [as interpreted], to some relatives there.

12 And on the first night I went to sleep in Cvijeta Ilic's house. That was

13 the agreement we had. We had agreed that I should come at around 10.00.

14 Q. Yes. Sorry. Sorry to stop you there. Did you say that your

15 children and father-in-law went to or did you say some other place? I

16 think the transcript might be incorrect?

17 A. Poloznik.

18 Q. Thank you. So at 10.00 you were saying you went to Cvijeta Ilic's

19 house. Did anything happen when you were there?

20 A. Yes. As agreed, I came -- I went through the dark, I came to the

21 front door of their house. When I opened the door I was shocked to see

22 Slavoljub Filipovic there. I was very surprised. He was wearing a

23 uniform and had a gun and her son Ilic, Novo, was there as well. And then

24 also another person, Raso, who did not have a uniform. He was wearing

25 civilian clothes. We were both surprised. They were surprised just as I

1 was surprised. I was also scared. Cvijeta simply said -- in order to

2 help me, said that I had come to take yeast for bread. She gave me some

3 yeast and then escorted me out to wait for them to leave the house. She

4 said they were on their way to stand guard somewhere.

5 Q. And, sorry, Raso you mentioned. Do you know his last name?

6 A. Raso Jovanovic.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, did you return to Cvijeta's house?

8 A. Yes. The two of us stood outside while they left the house. We

9 stood there for another five minutes and then went back to the house. She

10 took me to her bedroom to spend the night there. I was unable to sleep

11 that whole night. At around midnight her son came, Ilic, Stojan, he only

12 had secondary school education. And she told him, as I was listening,

13 that I was there. He said that he didn't mind me being there and he went

14 to sleep.

15 That entire night I was unable to sleep at all. And towards dawn

16 at around perhaps 4.00, Slavoljub Filipovic came back to the house, to

17 Cvijeta's house. Her son, Novo Ilic, and he sat together in a room next

18 to me. And I heard ammunition being dropped on to the table. I could

19 hear the sound of that, and I could hear them counting ammunition and

20 saying how much each of them had. I was overcome by panic. I went to the

21 window and I stood behind the curtains and I was able to see Slobodan

22 Djukanovic, also a neighbour of mine. He talked to somebody, but the

23 other person was behind the corner so I couldn't see the other person. So

24 Slobodan, Bobe, was talking and said that they had to collect young men 16

25 and up who did not serve the military service to Ratkovici there. These

1 young men knew nothing about weapons and they had to undergo training

2 there. That was the story that I heard. They were to meet someplace at

3 around 3.00.

4 Q. And when you say the young men who had to undo -- undergo training

5 in Ratkovici, are these young Serb men, young Muslim men, or all

6 nationality, as far as you understand?

7 A. Yes, they were Serbs, of Serb nationality.

8 Q. Did you leave Bjelovac?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben?

10 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour, just a matter of clarification. My

11 learned friend quoted at page 19, first line: "And when you say the young

12 men who had to undergo training in Ratkovici." As I recall, she didn't

13 mention that -- she didn't state it as such explicitly or am I mistaken in

14 that respect? It was a kind of concluding by counsel.

15 MR. JONES: I see at line 24, page 18, "they had to undergo

16 training there."

17 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I heard her saying. I have no problems

18 with it, Mr. Wubben. I think we can proceed.

19 MR. WUBBEN: I apologise.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, you don't need to. I mean, you have every

21 right to ask for a clarification, but I don't think it really needs

22 clarification.

23 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

25 MR. JONES:

1 Q. Did you leave Bjelovac at some stage and, if so, when?

2 A. Yes, I left it on the 11th of May, 1992, together with my husband,

3 my father-in-law.

4 Q. Okay. Sorry to cut you off but we're going to take it in discrete

5 stages with short answers, if possible. Where did you go?

6 A. On the 11th of May, 1992.

7 Q. Sorry, and where?

8 A. I went to the village of Poloznik.

9 Q. And what were the conditions of life like in Podloznik when you

10 arrived there?

11 A. The conditions in Poloznik were awful, were terrible. Poloznik

12 was full of refugees. In the house where I stayed there were about 80

13 refugees.

14 Q. And these refugees were from which villages, if you can name any

15 of them?

16 A. People were from Zalazje, Voljevica, there were people I didn't

17 know there, people from Bratunac fleeing towards the forest, and people

18 somehow ended up in Poloznik.

19 Q. And were these Muslims, Serbs, mixture?

20 A. We were Muslims.

21 Q. And how long did you remain in Podloznik?

22 A. It's Poloznik. I stayed in Poloznik until the 2nd of June, 1992.

23 Q. And where did you go from there?

24 A. I went to Srebrenica.

25 Q. And how did you get there?

1 A. Walking. We walked for days and nights through the woods. I have

2 no idea how we got there. The road was awful. We had no idea where we

3 were going, but we needed to get to Srebrenica and we travelled for an

4 entire day.

5 Q. Now, again, I won't ask you to describe the conditions of life in

6 Srebrenica.

7 MR. JONES: My apologies, there might be an issue with the

8 transcript.

9 Q. Sorry, did you say -- just one clarification, when you walked to

10 Srebrenica you walked for days and nights, plural, or for a day and a

11 night?

12 A. Day and night, plural.

13 Q. I'm afraid that doesn't clarify. It's not terribly important in

14 any event.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move, Mr. Jones. I mean, let's stick to what

16 is important, actually.

17 MR. JONES: And on that theme I'm not going to ask the witness to

18 dwell on the conditions of life in Srebrenica, in light of the indications

19 we've received.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

21 MR. JONES:

22 Q. Did you return to Bjelovac at any time in late 1992?

23 A. Sometime after the 20th of December of 1992 I came to Bjelovac.

24 Q. Right. When did you actually leave Srebrenica to go to the

25 Bjelovac area?

1 A. I went on the 13th of December, in the afternoon.

2 Q. And when you went were you alone or with you with others?

3 A. No. There were a lot of people, thousands of them, thousands of

4 people. Because the population was stripped of everything. They were

5 hungry. They were trying to ensure that their families stayed alive.

6 Q. So where did you -- where did you stay between the 13th of

7 December and the 20th of December when you entered Bjelovac?

8 A. I stayed in the house of my husband's uncle, Murif Sinanovic in

9 Poloznik.

10 Q. All right. Now, you said you left Srebrenica in the afternoon of

11 the 13th of December. Did you actually try to get into Bjelovac on the

12 14th of December or were you remaining in Poloznik?

13 A. I tried to enter the place because I wanted to go to my house to

14 get some food there. I had a lot of food that stayed behind in 1992. So

15 we started out sometime at around 9.00. My neighbours and I were together

16 in this huge crowd of people, thousands of people. So we started out in

17 the direction of Loznicka Rijeka. And we didn't even come halfway when

18 very strong shelling and bombing erupted. When the planes started flying

19 over, there would usually be two of them paired together and they would

20 fly over our heads five to six times in a day. An elderly men standing

21 next to me died in the course of that and we started hiding under the

22 trees, and we decided to return to Poloznik.

23 Q. All right. Okay. You've mentioned strong shelling and bombing.

24 You've described how the bombs came from these airplanes. Do you know

25 where the shelling was coming from, from what direction?

1 A. I don't know where the shells were coming from, but there were

2 many of them, a great deal of them. And as a result of that terrible

3 shelling, once I came to Bjelovac and my mother-in-law is buried in

4 Bjelovac, across from the house, and once I got to Bjelovac I could see

5 that the tombstone was completely destroyed.

6 Q. Okay. We're going to come to that shortly. On this day, the 14th

7 of December, 1992, you said that you couldn't --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment.

9 Mr. Wubben.

10 Sorry to interrupt you like this --

11 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I stood up not to interrupt counsel, but

12 he's already taking and triggering the issue itself of the day. Witness

13 is explaining what she saw, what she experienced. And prior to that she

14 confirmed she left Srebrenica in the afternoon of the 13th but did not

15 indicate her experiences in time -- in a timeline. And now immediately

16 counsel state "on this day, the 14th of December, 1992." I think that is

17 a little bit too soon to conclude that everything is on the 14th. I think

18 it might also be on the 15th.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think you can address that, Mr. Jones.

20 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I think it's about to disappear from the

21 screen, but page 22, line 8, I think it was. The fact that she left on

22 the 13th of December.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, she left on the 13th.

24 MR. JONES: I asked her what she did on the 14th of December, and

25 she said "at 9.00 a.m. we set off," so obviously she's talking about the

1 14th of December.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but let's make it -- make it clear once and

3 for all so that we avoid further interventions.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 14th of December.

5 MR. JONES:

6 Q. In terms of the shelling, did you see actually where shells were

7 falling on the 14th of December?

8 A. Yes. They were falling where we were in Pirici, in Poloznik. On

9 that day a mother who had just delivered twins two days ago was killed in

10 Pirici. Begzadic, Nisveta, she was killed in the shelling.

11 Q. And where did you stay that evening, the 14th of December, 1992?

12 A. When I -- when we returned to Poloznik we stayed in the basement.

13 And that night, once again I was in Poloznik staying with the relatives.

14 And then Ibrahim Osmanovic came. He knew that I was there. He asked me

15 to come out of the house, and I went out. Then he told me that I should

16 go with him to another house, to Musa, whose last name I don't know, to

17 see my neighbours, to be with them, Mira Filipovic, Dostana, her

18 mother-in-law, and two children. And I said, Why should I go?

19 Q. Okay. Sorry to cut you off. I was going to ask you if you did

20 subsequently go and stay in that house.

21 A. I didn't understand your question. Which house do you have in

22 mind?

23 Q. Musa's house. Did you go to Musa's house?

24 A. Yes, yes, yes. I went to Musa's house between 8.00 and 10.00 in

25 the evening. In that room there were two women with three children. I

1 was surprised and so were they. It was an unpleasant feeling. I was

2 thinking, Why me? But when I saw those children, I was overcome by other

3 feelings. So that evening we talked and then Musa's wife came in bringing

4 dinner. She gave us the same food she gave her family and her children.

5 And they refused the food.

6 Q. All right. Thank you. I want to take this step by step. So

7 you've mentioned Mira Filipovic, Dostana, her mother-in-law, and two

8 children. First of all, do you remember what the children were? Were

9 these Mira's children or who were the children?

10 A. Mira's and Slavoljub's children, the Filipovic children.

11 Q. And were both children the children of Mira and Slavoljub or was

12 one of them the children of --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And were they -- was this boys or girls or what precisely?

15 A. There were two children of Mira, a boy and a girl. And another

16 10-year-old boy called Brano.

17 Q. Okay. Now, did you stay with Mira that night?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. Did you do anything with regard to her children?

20 A. Yes. That evening I took her son Nemanja and changed diapers

21 twice overnight and fed him.

22 Q. Did Mira say what she was doing in Bjelovac that day?

23 A. That day, Mira didn't say anything to me. She just said that she

24 was with the children in the attic with her mother-in-law and then Slavka

25 Matic was throwing hand-grenades from her house and wounded her under the

1 chest and on the head and someplace else. And that night I bandaged her

2 wounds.

3 Q. And did Mira mention --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben.

5 MR. WUBBEN: Yes. Is Witness now answering a question related to

6 happenings in Bjelovac or in the other location, the other village,

7 Poloznik?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

9 MR. WUBBEN: Because she was -- excuse me. She was referring to

10 what was happening in the evening in Poloznik, invited by counsel, and

11 then out of a sudden there was some reference to Bjelovac. So in the time

12 there must happened something. I don't know what. I couldn't follow.

13 MR. JONES: I don't think it's that difficult to follow, but I can

14 clarify with a question.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: You did ask her what she was doing in Bjelovac that

16 day, but go ahead, Mr. Jones, it's easier this way. Either you or she's

17 followed the exchange so she could follow herself if you prefer that.

18 MR. JONES: Yes.

19 Q. Do you -- Mira told you about Slavka Matic throwing hand-grenades

20 from our house. Do you know where this was occurring?

21 A. Yes, in her house in Bjelovac.

22 Q. Right. So in other words Mira had been in Bjelovac, had been

23 wounded there as a result of Slavka Matic throwing hand-grenades, and then

24 had been brought to Poloznik. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: It's more than clear now.

2 MR. JONES: Yes.

3 Q. And is that what Mira told you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And did Mira say anything about whether she, Mira, had been in

6 Bjelovac for the whole of 1992 or whether she had been elsewhere?

7 A. She told me that up until a fortnight ago she had been in Serbia

8 and then he was unable to pay the rent and had to go back home to

9 Bjelovac.

10 Q. All right. Now, when you saw her in this house, in Musa's house,

11 were there any Muslims in uniform in that house?

12 A. No.

13 Q. When you were there in Musa's house or in the vicinity, did you

14 ever see Muslims in uniforms around the house?

15 A. No.

16 Q. What would you say if someone were to say that around that time

17 there were 2.000, 2.000 Muslims in uniform with weapons going back and

18 forth delivering messages to some sort of command centre. Did you see

19 anything like that on that day?

20 A. No.

21 Q. In fact, in 1992 and during the course of 1992, how many Muslims

22 did you see in uniform, in camouflage uniform?

23 A. No one.

24 Q. Now, how was Mira treated while she was in that house?

25 A. There was nobody else in the house except myself and the women.

1 And thereupon a man came along whose wife had been taken away on the 31st

2 of May and that happened in Sikiric and she was taken away with another

3 ten people from Sikiric and his name was Bekir Karic. He greeted them and

4 asked whether they knew anything about the whereabouts of his wife. And

5 Dostana replied that all she knew was that they had taken on a tractor in

6 -- on a small tractor, in the direction of Sase and nothing else.

7 Q. Do you know in fact whether the wife of Bekir Karic was ever seen

8 again?

9 A. No. Bekir Karic.

10 Q. And was she ever seen again?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Now, when you were there with Mira was she kept under an armed

13 guard?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Was she held as a prisoner?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Now, you've mentioned a little boy who was not one of Mira's

18 children. I think you said -- well, if you could tell us his name again,

19 please.

20 A. Brano, Brano Vucetic.

21 Q. How did he behave?

22 A. He had been wounded in the face, and when I bandaged Mira's wounds

23 he -- I tried to approach him but he was frightened. He didn't want a

24 Muslim to go anywhere near him. And at that stage I could see that even

25 the child who was just 10 years old was a nationalist already because he

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 wouldn't allow a Muslim to nurse his wounds.

2 Q. Did he actually say that or is that an inference?

3 A. He said, "I don't want a Muslim to bandage my wounds."

4 Q. You've told us that Mira and the others were offered food. Did

5 they accept it?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And did you see Mira at any time being interrogated by armed and

8 uniformed fighters when you were there?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Now, I want you to help us with this if you can: Was it possible

11 in 1992, I'm not just talking about December, but to travel from Poloznik

12 to Bjelovac by car?

13 A. No. It was a narrow mountain path.

14 MR. JONES: I think not all of the answers -- not the witness's

15 answer was interpreted. I think she said it was a goat path. Perhaps the

16 witness can confirm.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

18 Have you heard what Mr. Jones said just now? Did you say a

19 mountain -- a goat path or --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did, goat path.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

22 MR. JONES: All right.

23 Q. How wide was the road from Poloznik down towards the Drina?

24 A. The road from Poloznik to Loznicka Rijeka was the path that I was

25 describing as a goat path. Because Poloznik is at a pretty high altitude

1 and it is at a distance of 7 kilometres from the asphalt road going

2 between Loznicka Rijeka and Poloznik.

3 MR. JONES: In fact, for the record the witness was indicating

4 with her arms.

5 Q. I believe when you were indicating with your arms, you were

6 indicating the width of the path?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. All right. I won't --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness indicates a width of

10 about 75 centimetres.

11 MR. JONES: Thank you.

12 Q. Now, if it were to be said that around this time a yellow Mercedes

13 travelled from Poloznik to Srebrenica via Bjelovac, what would you say to

14 that? Is that possible?

15 A. No.

16 Q. How long did you stay in the Poloznik area before actually going

17 to Bjelovac?

18 A. Up until the 20th of December, roughly speaking.

19 Q. And in that period between you coming to Poloznik and then getting

20 into Bjelovac, was there still shelling going on or had that stopped?

21 A. No. There was incessant shelling and over that seven- to ten-day

22 period the planes were circling over the area and there was a lot of

23 shelling and a lot of war planes as well.

24 Q. All right?

25 MR. JONES: I would ask if the witness could be shown Exhibit

1 D736, please.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, please.

3 MR. JONES: And for the record this is Drina Corps command

4 strictly confidential, number 2-559, December 19, 1992. I'm obviously not

5 going to read the whole document. I just want to draw attention to second

6 paragraph, second sentence -- I should start from the beginning of

7 paragraph 2. "During December 18, 19, 1992, they stabilised defence in

8 the area of the Bratunac Brigade," and then further on: "A truck was

9 destroyed by artillery fire as well as two motorised vehicles, aviation

10 destroyed the department store, municipality spa Crni Guber and a part of

11 the settlement in Srebrenica," and then this is the bit I'm going to ask

12 you about: "And inflicted severe damages in the villages of Pirici and

13 Poloznik as well as some personnel losses."

14 Now, is that something you were in a position to confirm or deny

15 that on or around 18, 19 December Serb artillery caused serious damage in

16 the area of Pirici and Podloznik? I know it's written Poloznik, but I

17 assume that's where you're referring to as Poloznik.

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the answer.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: She said "da." I think that's what I heard anyway.

21 Perhaps, Madam, you could repeat your answer because the

22 interpreter didn't get it.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam, and thank you interpreters for

25 pointing that out.

1 MR. JONES:

2 Q. And the shelling and bombing was that in the area of the goat

3 path, as you described?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. JONES: We're not going to play a video, but we're going to

6 freeze a video at certain frames. It's exhibit P428, which we've seen

7 many times before. I'm just going to stop at about four or five places

8 and ask the witness a few questions. So, first, we're going to stop at

9 0.27 and we may run up to it by a few seconds beforehand. It's the green

10 number in the bottom.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but we are at 0.25.

12 MR. JONES: Yes. We'll play and freeze.

13 [Videotape played]

14 MR. JONES:

15 Q. Ms. Sinanovic, do you recognise where that is?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Where is it?

18 A. Jovanovici.

19 Q. Right. Thank you.

20 MR. JONES: And I think that's noted for the record that that's

21 0.27.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you.

23 MR. JONES: We're going to stop at 2.54 now.

24 [Videotape played]

25 MR. JONES:

1 Q. Do you recognise that building?

2 A. Yes, that's the school in Bjelovac.

3 Q. Do you see anything burning in that frame?

4 A. No.

5 MR. JONES: We're going to stop now at 4.17.

6 [Videotape played]

7 MR. JONES:

8 Q. We stop there. We see smoke coming from various buildings. Do

9 you recognise where that is?

10 A. Yes, Jovanovici again.

11 MR. JONES: And then we're going to 14.26.

12 [Videotape played]

13 MR. JONES:

14 Q. Yes, again, where is that, please?

15 A. Jovanovici again.

16 MR. JONES: And then 20.44.

17 [Videotape played]

18 MR. JONES:

19 Q. Do you recognise where that is?

20 A. Yes. Jovanovici, only the visibility is slightly better here.

21 MR. JONES: And then finally on this, 22.24.

22 [Videotape played]

23 MR. JONES:

24 Q. Where is that, please?

25 A. This is in Jovanovici. This big house belonged to Miloje

1 Jovanovic.

2 MR. JONES: If we can go now to 11.21.

3 [Videotape played]

4 MR. JONES:

5 Q. Could you tell us -- you mentioned -- well, firstly if you can

6 tell us what you recognise in this picture.

7 A. I can recognise between the two hills -- oh, no, rather, this is

8 Jovanovici and the road to Poloznik goes between the two hills.

9 Q. Right. Is Podloznik, is it on the left- or the right-hand side of

10 those hills that we see?

11 A. To the left.

12 Q. Is it correct to say that Podloznik is actually up in those hills?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. JONES: And then if we could stop finally at 29.36.

15 [Videotape played]

16 MR. JONES:

17 Q. Now, we see a house there with smoke, what appears to be a flame.

18 Can you take a good look at it and tell us only if you can, whose house

19 that is.

20 A. Yes, I do. Srecko Mihajlovic, a forest ranger from Bratunac.

21 MR. JONES: We finished with that video and we're going to look

22 briefly at another video which is D112. We're going to play that.

23 [Videotape played]

24 MR. JONES: Thank you.

25 Q. Now, did you recognise the person in that video, person being

1 interviewed?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Who is it?

4 A. Slavoljub Filipovic.

5 Q. Did you see what he was wearing in that video?

6 A. Yes. He was wearing military jacket which was a part of this

7 olive-drab uniform.

8 Q. Did you see him in that olive-drab uniform earlier when you

9 described seeing him in a uniform or was he in another uniform?

10 A. In the beginning he used to wear this uniform, but when he came to

11 my house he was wearing a camouflage uniform, when he came to take our

12 truck.

13 Q. All right. We see him saying there that his wife and two children

14 jumped into the Drina. Is that true, to your knowledge?

15 A. No.

16 Q. You also -- well, if I --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

18 MR. JONES: I can give the date if that's what the issue is. On

19 the 14th of December.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I was going to ask you myself, actually.

21 Yes, Mr. Wubben.

22 MR. WUBBEN: I recall that it was not that they jumped into the

23 river. I recall another text as quoted.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no --

25 MR. WUBBEN: The text of -- the wife threw the children in the

1 river.

2 MR. JONES: I think she jumped to Drina herself, "my mother jumped

3 also."

4 JUDGE AGIUS: She jumped to the Drina herself.

5 MR. JONES: Anyway.

6 Q. I think the point is this: To your knowledge on the 14th of

7 December, 1992, did Mira and her two children and her mother jump or get

8 thrown into the river Drina?

9 A. No.

10 Q. We've also seen Slavoljub Filipovic saying that hundreds were

11 killed in Bjelovac on the 14th of December, 1992. Is that true, to your

12 knowledge?

13 A. No.

14 Q. And finally, the interviewer asked and Slavoljub Filipovic

15 confirmed that jihad warriors were involved in the action in Bjelovac. To

16 your knowledge, were jihad warriors involved in that action?

17 A. No, but this is the first time I've heard this name.

18 MR. JONES: All right. We've finished with that video.

19 Q. You've told us how you had a house in Bjelovac. Do you know who,

20 if anyone, occupies the land where your house is or was?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: You mean now?

22 MR. JONES: Yes, now.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing at the moment. I mean, the

24 house had been destroyed, but in 1992 Slavoljub Filipovic took my house

25 and he opened a cafe there. And afterwards he just destroyed everything,

1 so nothing was left standing.

2 MR. JONES:

3 Q. And you've told us that your husband is Muriz Sinanovic. Is that

4 house the house of Muriz Sinanovic, the house you've been referring to as

5 being taken by Slavoljub Filipovic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right.

8 MR. JONES: I would ask if the witness can now be shown a series

9 of photographs, it's P452. I'm trying to finish before the break, but we

10 started slightly later. I'll probably go ten minutes into the next

11 session, but only ten minutes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it going to be a long cross-examination?

13 MR. WUBBEN: I don't expect but we still have to prepare and look

14 into two various matters, Your Honour. We try to do as best as promised.

15 MR. JONES:

16 Q. All right. Now, in December 1992, I don't want to get the date

17 wrong, but I think you said it was around the 20th or the 21st of

18 December, 1992, did you get into the centre of Bjelovac?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And do you remember the date exactly or the number -- or how many

21 days after you first came to Poloznik? If you can give us some

22 indication.

23 A. You're asking me about when I got to Poloznik?

24 Q. No, Bjelovac. Do you know either the approximate date when you

25 came into Bjelovac or do you know approximately how many days it was after

1 you left Srebrenica? That's probably a better date to fix it from.

2 A. It was the 20th or the 21st. I can't tell you precisely whether

3 it was the 20th or the 21st of December.

4 Q. Was there shelling on that day?

5 A. Yes, a lot of shelling.

6 Q. Did you see where the shells were landing?

7 A. They were landing everywhere, in fields, on the roads, in the

8 streets, in the centre of Bjelovac, in Pirici, in the forest, in the

9 villages, in Poloznik, everywhere.

10 Q. There's something I should have asked you earlier, the Jahici,

11 Mujici, and Lolici houses, what condition were they in in December 1992?

12 A. And in the house in Bjelovac, the house that the Muslims had been

13 chased away from, well some of the houses were torched and others were

14 mined. But it was in May 1992.

15 Q. And was that something which was visible in May 1992, that these

16 houses had been torched?

17 A. When those families left the houses, I mean the ones that were

18 chased in the direction of Kladanj and those who were taken to the woods,

19 the ones that were closer, they could see the houses burning. You could

20 see it with the naked eye.

21 Q. Now, if we look at these photographs, I actually want to start

22 with the one which is 01088033. Now, whose house is that?

23 A. This is my father-in-law's house, Rahmana Sinanovic's house. This

24 is where my shop was, the ground floor of this house.

25 Q. All right. So if someone were to say that was the house of

1 Vladimir Djukanovic, would that be correct or incorrect?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Incorrect.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: No what? It would be correct or incorrect? I think

5 you better use the word "correct" or "not correct." I repeat the question

6 to you: "If one were to say that what you see in that photo is the house

7 of Vladimir Djukanovic, would you say it is correct or not correct?"

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

9 MR. JONES:

10 Q. You have to use the words "correct" or "incorrect," Ms. Sinanovic,

11 please.

12 A. It's not correct.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

14 MR. JONES: Thank you.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Jones.

16 MR. JONES:

17 Q. As far as your house in Bjelovac is concerned, was that house ever

18 damaged? In fact, you told us it was destroyed. But before that, was it

19 damaged by the shells or bombing or burning?

20 A. When I got there in December 1992, either on the 20th or the 21st,

21 I don't know, the house had been damaged by shells and aviation as well,

22 aviation weapons. Not a lot of damage, just a little bit.

23 Q. Now, if you go through the rest of the photographs, we're not

24 going to look at all of them but just a selection. I want to ask you

25 first if you saw that house or building when you went to Bjelovac on the

1 20th or 21st of December, and then if you can answer at the same time

2 whether you saw it in that condition or not. So firstly 01088029 -- in

3 fact, first do you recognise the building?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Who does it belong to or who did it belong to?

6 A. It belonged to Ivka Ilic from Bjelovac.

7 Q. All right. Okay. Was there anything -- was it a private

8 residence?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Sorry, it sounded like you were going to add something. I didn't

11 want to cut you off.

12 A. I just wanted to say it is not Ilic Ivka, but it used to belong to

13 Kovacevics' family where the Djokanovics had a cafe.

14 Q. Okay. So there was a cafe on that location?

15 A. Yes. There was a cafe run by two brothers from Kostanovici and

16 their name was Djukanovic.

17 Q. And did you see that house when you went in December 1992?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was it in that condition?

20 A. No.

21 Q. All right. We're going to 8030. Firstly, do you recognise what

22 building that is?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Yes. Tell us each time what it is, please.

25 A. This is where the doctors' surgery in Bjelovac was.

1 Q. And again, did you see this building when you went in December

2 1992?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was it in this state?

5 A. No. Was it -- was it damaged in any way when you saw it.

6 A. No.

7 Q. I'm just wondering --

8 MR. JONES: I can probably get through the photographs in another

9 five minutes, otherwise we can break now and then just carry on.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Just the same for me. We are going to continue

11 anyway, so let's break now. I mean, I take it you have further questions

12 after these photos?

13 MR. JONES: Yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: So then we'll have a break now.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I see Mr. Wubben standing. Yes, Mr. Wubben.

18 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honours, in order to support and to try to

19 finish today I definitely need, after my colleague finished, Mr. Jones, I

20 need some other break to prepare further some issues left. So what I

21 suggest is that you --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not -- you know that we have never said to such

23 requests, either to you or to the Defence. So --

24 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: -- you don't need to worry about this.

1 Yes, Mr. Jones.

2 MR. JONES: My reaction is this: I've very deliberately planned

3 my whole examination-in-chief to be finished in an hour and a half or

4 something like that. I haven't gone into areas which I would have gone

5 into if I had more time. It's all premised on the understanding that we

6 finish with this witness today because that's very much her request. I

7 understand the request of the Prosecution in the spirit of still finishing

8 with this witness today, but simply taking a break after I finish, and

9 obviously I don't oppose that. But I do want to have enough time to

10 re-examine, and enough time for your questions --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I know. It shouldn't be a problem. I don't

12 know how long this cross-examination that Mr. Wubben has in mind is likely

13 to last, but I would be surprised if it lasted a long time.

14 MR. WUBBEN: We will finish today.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah.

16 MR. JONES: Thanks.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thanks for your cooperation, both of you.

18 Please proceed, Mr. Jones.

19 MR. JONES:

20 Q. One matter to clarify, Ms. Sinanovic, before we resume with the

21 photographs, you've been referring to Poloznik. I've asked you about

22 Podloznik. Perhaps to locate this village, could you tell us how far is

23 it from Pirici?

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About 7 kilometres.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 MR. JONES: Right. For my purposes that is sufficient.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: 7 kilometres. From Pirici to Podloznik or Poloznik.

3 MR. JONES:

4 Q. Now, going back to these photographs we were looking at 01088030

5 and you told us that this was what you called an ambulant or a health

6 centre. Where in Bjelovac is this, roughly?

7 A. This was across the road from the Jahici and -- Jahic and

8 Mujkanovic houses in Bjelovac.

9 Q. Is it in the centre of Bjelovac or is it outside the centre?

10 A. This is in Bjelovac but not in the centre. The area that's closer

11 to the entry point into Bjelovac.

12 Q. All right. Okay. Well, I'm not sure if I asked you but did you

13 see this building in December 1992?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And was it in the condition that we see in this photograph?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Now moving on to 01088034. And do you -- could you tell us whose

18 house this is? Actually, there are a couple of houses, so if you could

19 help us with each of them.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. If she prefers to look at the photo, at the

21 exhibit itself rather than the screen, I think it would help her see

22 better.

23 MR. JONES: Yes.

24 Q. You can also look to your right, Ms. Sinanovic, on the electronic

25 monitor to your right. I'm going to start with the house on the left. Do

1 you know whose house that is?

2 A. This one here?

3 Q. Yes, the one on the left.

4 A. This house belongs to Srecko Mihajlovic.

5 Q. Sorry, you need to -- let's just be clear whether you're pointing

6 to the left or the right and then take your time and only tell us if

7 you're sure. Which is the house on the left and which is the house on the

8 right?

9 A. The one on the right.

10 Q. Is whose house, the one on the right?

11 A. The one on the right is the house of Srecko Mihajlovic.

12 Q. Now, did you see that house in December 1992?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And did it look like it had sustained any sort of damage?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And what sort of damage, if you're able to tell?

17 A. The damage from shelling and aviation that resulted in the roof

18 being damaged and the attic area.

19 Q. And you -- you say the house of Srecko Mihajlovic. You identified

20 a house on the video, P428, as being in fact a burning house of Srecko

21 Mihajlovic. Is that the same house or is it a different one? Well, let

22 me put it this way: This Srecko Mihajlovic, did he have more than one

23 house in the Bjelovac area?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And now if we go to 8 -- 01088040, would you tell us, please, if

1 you know whose house that is.

2 A. This is the house of Bozana Damjanovic. I know this house very

3 well.

4 Q. Right. And did you see it in December of 1992? And if so, can

5 you help us with any damage which you saw to the building.

6 A. Yes. I saw this house as well. One can see that the first storey

7 was damaged by shelling, but the ground floor is intact. It was damaged

8 in shelling and due to aviation action.

9 Q. Right. And if we go back one to 01088039, please have a look at

10 that house. Do you know whose house that is?

11 A. Yes. This house is the house of Srecko Mihajlovic. The other one

12 was not. Now that I can see it up close, I can see it better and I

13 realise that this is the house of Srecko Mihajlovic.

14 Q. Fine. Thank you. It's no problem. Let's go back to clarify

15 this, back to 01088034 and see now if you can tell us whose house it is.

16 And if you don't know, feel free to say so.

17 A. This is the house of Bozana Damjanovic.

18 Q. Yes. So that's -- I don't think that's 01088034, which is the one

19 that I wanted to look at.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: This is 8040. That was 840.

21 MR. JONES: Yes, 01088034, please.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This house belongs to Milo

23 Jovanovic, the one on the right.

24 MR. JONES:

25 Q. Okay. And finally can we put 01088042. Do you know whose house

1 that is?

2 A. Yes. This is the house of Slavoljub Filipovic.

3 Q. And did you see that house in December 1992?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did it appear to have been burnt, set on fire?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And did you see the house of Slavka Matic when you were in

8 Bjelovac in December of 1992?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And did that house look like it had been burned?

11 A. No.

12 Q. I'm finished with that exhibit.

13 MR. JONES: If the witness can now be shown Defence Exhibit D96,

14 which I'm afraid we mistakenly noted at P96 at one point.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and don't worry about it. This is the photo of

16 a certain person.

17 MR. JONES: Yes, indeed.

18 Q. Do you recognise the person in this photograph, Ms. Sinanovic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Who is it?

21 A. Novo Ilic.

22 Q. And is that -- is that the same Novo Ilic, the son of Cvijeta Ilic

23 who you described earlier or is it a different Novo Ilic?

24 A. Yes, the same Novo Ilic, the son of Cvijeta.

25 Q. Thank you.

1 MR. JONES: I'm done with that exhibit.

2 Q. I'm going to end by showing you a few documents. The first is

3 entitled a criminal report against Alija Izetbegovic, Sefer Halilovic, and

4 Naser Oric, and the B/C/S is 00632970, that's the front page of the

5 English. And returning to page 00633091 in B/C/S. And in the English

6 it's -- well, it's the last two pages of our -- of this hand-out.

7 Now -- right. I'm just going to ask you to look at page, as I

8 said in the B/C/S it's 3091 and find your name, Suhra Sinanovic, Bjelovac,

9 Bratunac, and it says in English: "Active participant in majority of

10 attacks on Serb villages, organiser of plundering and destruction of

11 family homes, Filipovic, Matic, Stojanovic, and Petrovic. From Serb

12 villages, Bjelovac, Loznicka Rijeka, and Sikiric."

13 Now, my question is: Is this -- were you an active participant in

14 attacks on Serb villages?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Were you an organiser of the plundering and destruction of the

17 property of the Filipovic, Matic, Stojanovic, and Petrovic families?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you know whether your property was in fact looted by Serbs at

20 any stage?

21 A. Yes. When I talked to Mira Filipovic she told me that Rosa Ilic

22 had taken all my property to Serbia. And naturally, afterwards, when

23 Slavoljub Filipovic established a cafe there, they destroyed all of my

24 property and then accused me of doing that. However, they were the ones

25 who did that.

1 MR. JONES: I would just ask for an exhibit number for this

2 document, please.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This would become Defence Exhibit 75 --

4 THE REGISTRAR: 4.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: 754. 754. Thank you.

6 MR. JONES: Thank you.

7 And we have another two documents the next one is ERN 00678865 to

8 00678878, and the English is 00850546 to 00850560, and the top of the

9 title is "Organisers of Genocide against the Serbian people."

10 Q. And if we turn to page 14 in the English, 00850559, and in the

11 B/C/S it's 00678878, we again see your name. Without going detail I'll

12 just ask you: Are you an organiser of the genocide against the Serbian

13 people?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. JONES: I'll just ask for the exhibit number for this

17 document, please.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This will become Defence Exhibit D755. Thank

19 you.

20 MR. JONES: And then lastly I have a document with ERN 01334640,

21 and this is -- sorry 01 -- yes. I'll give the ERN for the B/C/S 00799571

22 to 00799578. And this purports to be a list of war criminals known to the

23 command of the 1st light infantry brigade who committed war crimes in the

24 area of Bratunac, Srebrenica, Milici, Vlasenica, and Skelani

25 municipalities and are believed to be in Srebrenica.

1 Q. I just want to ask you about some of the names on this list and if

2 you can tell us what, if anything, you know about their movements in 1992.

3 First of all, number 15, Dzevad Gusic.

4 A. In Tuzla, in 1992 in April, he went to Tuzla then.

5 Q. Number 16, Izet Gusic?

6 A. He was in Slovenia in April of 1992.

7 Q. Number 120, if you can find that, Zihnija Sinanovic, do you know

8 where he or she was?

9 A. He was in Macedonia from 1993 until 2001.

10 Q. Let's look at 169, Mujo Becirovic -- actually, no, I believe 167,

11 Mehmedalija Begzadic?

12 A. He was in Tuzla.

13 Q. Finally let's look at 235, the name Mirsad Malagic. Do you know

14 anything about him?

15 A. Yes. In the beginning of 1992 he was killed by a shell.

16 Q. And your name appears at number 326. I just note that for the

17 record and I won't ask you any questions in that record.

18 MR. JONES: I'll just ask for an exhibit number, please.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So this will become Defence Exhibit D756, Mr. Jones.

20 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there a mistake in the transcript?

22 MR. JONES: Yes. I think for Mirsad Malagic the witness might

23 have said what month he left.

24 Q. In what month did Mirsad Malagic leave -- my apologies, killed by

25 a shell?

1 A. Mirsad Malagic was killed in May in the very beginning -- or

2 rather, mid-May. When the first shelling started he was killed by the

3 shells then.

4 Q. All right. Now, a different subject. Do you know Fatima

5 Hasanovic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you see her when you were in Srebrenica?

8 A. Yes, I saw her in 1994 when she came from Loznica from Serbia,

9 because she had been wounded and transferred to Serbia, where she stayed

10 for about a year and a half.

11 Q. Did she tell you any story involving Slavka Matic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Just tell us briefly what she told you.

14 A. Well, when she came, thousands of families went to see that woman

15 after all that time had passed. She told everyone that she had been

16 wounded and taken to Loznica, to Serbia, to hospital there. She was

17 wounded in her hip. And, as they were unable to operate on her in

18 Loznica, her doctor made arrangements for her to be operated in the

19 Koviljaca spa. So she was taken to that spa, and upon her arrival there

20 she saw Slavka Matic, Grozda Matic, and Cvjetko Lukic. These patients

21 from the hospital created a disorder claiming that Muslims should not be

22 operated in that hospital. Slavka allegedly said that if doctors operate

23 on her she would set fire to the hospital; that was her revenge. She was

24 there, Slavka was there, and she was saying that no Muslims could be

25 operated upon in Koviljaca spa.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, two items on the

3 transcript. When the witness was speaking, she said that Fatima spent a

4 year and a half in a camp in Serbia. So the word "camp" is missing from

5 the transcript. And then in the transcript it is also stated "Slavka

6 allegedly said"; that's not what the witness said. She didn't say "Slavka

7 allegedly said." She simply said she heard from Fatima that Slavka had

8 said. So I just wanted this to be clarified.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When Fatima was brought to Koviljaca

10 spa, or Banja Koviljaca, she found Slavka Matic, Grozda Matic and Cvjetko,

11 and many other patients who did not allow a Muslim to be operated upon in

12 Banja Koviljaca. And Fatima told me that Slavka had said that if they did

13 operate on her in Banja Koviljaca that she would set fire to the hospital.

14 MR. JONES:

15 Q. Yes, in other words if the doctors operated on Fatima, Slavka

16 would set fire to the hospital. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is Fatima Hasanovic still living?

19 A. No. Fatima was alive until several years ago. This is why she

20 died, because when she came to Tuzla and Sarajevo it was too late. They

21 operated on her several times, and after that she died.

22 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, one question on the time when you

23 were in Srebrenica. You were in Srebrenica in 1992/1993. Correct -- and,

24 in fact, beyond?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. In the period before demilitarisation, were you aware at any stage

2 of a curfew being organised?

3 A. No.

4 Q. In your view, would it have been possible to have a curfew based

5 on what you saw and experienced in Srebrenica at that time?

6 A. No. As far as I know there was no police at all there.

7 Q. But why do you say it wouldn't have been possible to have a

8 curfew?

9 A. Because in Srebrenica there were 50.000 refugees and there was no

10 police whatsoever. So this is the first time I hear of a curfew.

11 Q. And finally, and slightly going back to these photographs we saw

12 earlier but a point I should clarify, you saw these photographs and I

13 asked you about what you saw in Bjelovac on the 20th or 21st of December,

14 1992, when you were there. Did you see at that time any houses that

15 looked like they'd been burnt, like they'd been set fire to?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And I'm excluding from that the Mujic, Lolic houses which you said

18 had been burnt in May 1992, if that was clear.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. JONES: Yes, no further questions.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Jones.

23 Now, how much time do you require, Mr. Wubben?

24 MR. WUBBEN: 25 minutes, half an hour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly.

1 MR. WUBBEN: Half an hour.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have a 30-minute break, and then I take it

3 that you will go till the very end and you finish?

4 MR. WUBBEN: Yes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. Thank you.

6 --- Recess taken at 11.29 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 12.05 p.m.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So now, Madam Sinanovic, Mr. Wubben, who is lead

9 counsel for the Prosecution in this case, will be cross-examining you.

10 Hopefully we will be finished today.

11 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour, I'm confident we will finish today.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Wubben:

14 Q. Good morning -- good afternoon. My name is Jan Wubben. I am lead

15 counsel for the Prosecution, as stated by Presiding Judge, and I will pose

16 questions to you. Will you please give me a short answer when possible.

17 And if any question by me is unclear, please ask me for clarification.

18 And if you don't know, please state you don't. Yes?

19 A. Yes. Thank you.

20 Q. In your statement this morning you testified about your times in

21 Bjelovac and the developments there shortly after the war started. Did

22 you notice in Bjelovac at that time, let me say April or earlier, March,

23 or some later, any set of village guards?

24 A. By the end of April, in April generally, when I first started

25 seeing uniformed soldiers and when I went to Cvijeta's house and when I

1 met Novo Ilic and Slavoljub Filipovic, that is when they went to guard

2 duty and they were uniformed. And Novo's mother, Cvijeta, did say that --

3 she said we would go somewhere else to give them time to go out of the

4 house and go and do their guard duty.

5 Q. So -- so it is a fact that in Bjelovac at that time guard duties

6 had been organised?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And were these duties organised by the Serbs, or mixed by the

9 Serbs and the Muslims, or the Muslims?

10 A. No. It was only organised for Serbs.

11 Q. Do you also know the reason why this was all organised and set;

12 up?

13 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you as to why they organised that.

14 Q. Did you happen to ask any of the known village guards to you why

15 they were acting like that or ...

16 A. I wasn't able to ask that question because of fear. I was

17 frightened. I was even too scared to go out into my own backyard or walk

18 down the street. We had to hide and stay indoors and try and be as

19 inconspicuous as possible. Because we were Muslims we didn't want to be

20 seen. They used to walk around during the day as well. They were

21 uniformed and they walked around Bjelovac, but I didn't know any of these

22 people.

23 Q. But what was the reason they were guarding for? Were they afraid?

24 Were they being threatened?

25 A. No, they were not threatened by anyone.

1 Q. Did they fear an attack from outside towards Bjelovac?

2 A. I'm unable to tell you.

3 Q. Did they build any trenches around Bjelovac or in Bjelovac?

4 A. Up until the 11th of May, as long as I stayed there, no.

5 Q. And after the 11th of May?

6 A. I wasn't there after the 11th of May. I wasn't in Bjelovac.

7 Q. You don't know?

8 A. No.

9 Q. But you arrived afterwards -- but I return to that issue later.

10 In -- you told the Court that you went to Srebrenica, stayed there. And

11 on the 13th of December, 1992, in the afternoon you went towards Bjelovac.

12 Is that correct?

13 A. Yes, I went to Poloznik.

14 Q. Now, what make you leave on that particular day, on the 13th of

15 December, towards that village that you mentioned?

16 A. Because the day before nine members of my family who were living

17 in Srebrenica with other refugees, there were 20 of us in that flat, and

18 we had nothing to eat. And I couldn't bear to look at my children

19 starving, and I had to do something, bring back some food, or the other

20 option was to watch my children starve to death.

21 Q. So what did you discuss then as an opportunity for them?

22 A. Either to go get food or to watch my children die of starvation.

23 Q. But what makes you choose to go for food with such a large number

24 of people, as you stated?

25 A. Well, when you see one, two, three people setting out, that was a

1 kind of sign and it was only normal for people to go together. So as soon

2 as we saw anyone setting out -- well, people were dying of hunger, as I

3 said, and it was an imposed choice, as it were. And there were thousands

4 of people setting out to get food. Some people would come back alive,

5 others wouldn't.

6 Q. Is it your testimony that you didn't knew that you would go to

7 Bjelovac or Poloznik when you left on the 13th of December?

8 A. I didn't know exactly that I was going to go there, but my

9 neighbour, one of my neighbours, said they were going and she set out.

10 And I said we had nothing left to eat, and I had to do something. And

11 then she said, Let's go in the direction of Poloznik, and we saw a column

12 of people, thousands of civilians, looking for food.

13 Q. Wasn't it known at the time that an operation or an action was set

14 up towards Bjelovac?

15 A. As wife and mother, I had responsibilities for my own family and I

16 took care of my own children and I knew nothing about anything of the

17 sort. I was fighting for the sheer survival of my children and my family.

18 Q. Didn't you learn any rumours around the 13th of December in the

19 afternoon or some earlier that an action would be set up towards the

20 Bjelovac area?

21 A. I said that I heard from my neighbour because I was telling her I

22 had nothing to eat, and she said to me, Let's go in the direction of

23 Poloznik. And that's how I started on the way to Poloznik, with her and

24 with the other people, because we were starving.

25 Q. So you decide to go to Poloznik because this woman told you so

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 that it would be an opportunity and you didn't wonder how to prepare in

2 what for and whether the information is sure to get food over there?

3 A. We knew that there was still people living in Poloznik. There

4 were people there, and I was hoping that some of my relatives would be

5 able to give me some food. So that was my intention when I set out in the

6 direction of Poloznik, in order to ask them for some food. And so I

7 stayed there overnight, and the next day I went on to Bjelovac and I

8 didn't even get halfway there --

9 Q. Thank you. I will get to that issue later on, but I have a

10 question regarding those people joining you. You told the Court there

11 were thousands of people joining you in this journey towards the direction

12 that ends up for you in Poloznik. Those people, did you talk to those

13 people that were accompanying you?

14 A. I didn't know any of those other people. I only talked to this

15 neighbour of mine about how we could make ends meet and whether we would

16 be able to bring anything back to our children and whether when we got

17 back the next day they would still be alive or they will have died of

18 hunger already.

19 Q. Did you learn from any one of those people also undertaking that

20 journey that Bjelovac might be an operation for food, for getting food?

21 Sorry.

22 A. I've told you that I went in the direction of Poloznik and I kept

23 discussing these things -- I mean food-related issues with my neighbour;

24 and as to any operation, I don't know.

25 Q. Didn't you wonder whether or not all those thousands of people

1 would go to that village of Poloznik or have -- might have another reason

2 to undertake that journey as well?

3 A. Well, not all of us went to Poloznik because there were other

4 villages in the surrounding areas such as Lokve and Brezovica, and if

5 people had friends there in those other villages they went there. Not

6 everybody went to Poloznik.

7 Q. So -- sorry. So therefore it's pure coincidence that you went to

8 Poloznik on the same day as thousands of others went to other villages?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Just one moment.

10 Yes, Mr. Jones.

11 MR. JONES: I don't see what the coincidence is supposed to be.

12 It's simply that, people going to different places. Where's the

13 coincidence?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are right.

15 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I -- with all respect, I disagree. The

16 coincidence is that there are a lot of villages --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you need to rephrase your question. I men, you

18 are assuming and giving to the witness the conclusion, nothing but the

19 conclusion, that this was pure coincidence. And you are asking her to

20 explain.

21 MR. WUBBEN: Okay, I will rephrase.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: You shouldn't put to the witness that it is

23 definitely pure coincidence; let her explain how on the same day in the

24 same place there were several thousand of people, some going one direction

25 and others going in another direction and she will explain why if she

1 knows why. But you put in her mouth -- that's why I let Mr. Jones go

2 ahead with his objection. You were not suggesting, you were leaving no

3 alternative that it was pure coincidence.

4 MR. WUBBEN: I will rephrase, Your Honour.

5 Q. Do you have an explanation why so many people, thousands of

6 people, were aiming on the same day, the same afternoon, for such a

7 journey which ends up in various directions, various villages, as you

8 stated?

9 A. Well, I've told you that we were going hungry. We simply had to

10 find some means of survival, that is to say food. And it was indeed a

11 coincidence that I joined all these other people on the way in their

12 search for food together with my neighbourhood. Because I've told you, we

13 did not all go to Poloznik. People had friends and relations in different

14 villages. I can't tell you now exactly how many villages there are in the

15 area.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, we have -- I understand of course the answer

17 that you have given, but there is one point which you haven't explained.

18 Why exactly this was happening on the 13th? Did it happen the day

19 before? Or the day before? Why was it all happening on the 13th of

20 December? This is what Mr. Wubben wants you to explain, if you have an

21 explanation. Because if you don't, then obviously you tell us "I don't

22 know."

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that a couple of days before

24 setting off we had nothing to eat. And so I had to go somewhere, no

25 matter where. I just had to find some food for my child. I didn't know

1 how to tell my 2-year-old child that I had no food, and I couldn't simply

2 sit back and watch them suffer.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben.

4 MR. WUBBEN:

5 Q. While you were joining this group of thousands taking this route,

6 those people, were they all civilians or were there also fighters or

7 soldiers accompanying the group?

8 A. Those are civilians only.

9 Q. Only civilians. The civilians including you were undertaking

10 quite a long distance for travel, isn't it?

11 A. Yes, it was a long way away.

12 Q. Were you by any chance secured from any threats from the outside

13 world, or I'd like to say mines, or ...

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think -- do you understand the question?

15 MR. WUBBEN:

16 Q. If you don't understand the question, you should confirm so and I

17 will rephrase.

18 A. Could you just repeat it, please.

19 Q. I will repeat the question. When you undertake --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I would suggest, Mr. Wubben, if you could rephrase

21 it a little bit. You are in cross-examination, so you can go direct and

22 explain exactly what -- what you mean. Because it will be easier for the

23 witness.

24 MR. WUBBEN:

25 Q. As you were all civilians, you should -- you were afraid, isn't

1 it, because it was wartime?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And because you were afraid and planned to undertake such a long

4 journey, you should be secured at the utmost, isn't it?

5 A. We had no security whatsoever. We just set off no matter in what

6 direction, simply to find some means of survival.

7 Q. Now, you were aiming for Serb-held territory, or at least in the

8 neighbourhood. So weren't you concerned about meeting any Serb forces,

9 soldiers, who would be hostile?

10 A. I did say, we didn't really care. I just had to get food, and it

11 was better to get killed rather than come back empty-handed.

12 MR. WUBBEN: One moment, please.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, whilst Mr. Wubben is

15 pondering this I would like to make a correction for the transcript. The

16 witness had said "I had to get food and it was better for me to get killed

17 rather than for my family to starve and not to come back empty-handed."

18 Could the witness please confirm this, rather than "for my family

19 to die of starvation."

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay. Let's -- whenever you're ready,

22 Mr. Wubben.

23 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you.

24 Q. So it is your testimony that these group of thousands of people

25 went to Serb-held territory or the neighbourhood of it, feared hostile

1 encountering with Serb soldiers or forces, but didn't at all organise any

2 guards to secure them?

3 A. I did not say that we were afraid. I said that we were driven by

4 hunger. That's why we had to go. It was better to get hit by a bullet,

5 to step on a land-mine, rather than to have to watch your family slowly

6 dying of starvation in your own house.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. She hasn't answered the question as yet. But

8 yes, Mr. Jones.

9 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour, this witness has been giving

10 evidence obviously about what she -- was going through her mind and

11 whether she was organising anything and concerned for her security. For

12 her to be asked questions about what the thousands of people were doing

13 and what was passing through their minds and why they were going to

14 territories, I think, is unfair on her. Because if she answers it, then

15 she'll be speaking on behalf of thousands of people and that's

16 obviously -- I mean, she can't do -- she can speak for herself, but not

17 for what thousands of people --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that she knows that she can only speak for

19 herself.

20 MR. JONES: And, also, Poloznik is not Serb-held territory. She's

21 given evidence that it was -- that there were Bosniaks there, so it's one

22 thing to say that they were nearby Serb territory but it's not that she's

23 going right into Serb territory.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And that's marginal, Mr. Jones, because they had to

25 pass through certain territories that -- I better not mention anything

1 else.

2 Yes. Mr. Wubben, she hasn't answered your question, the essence

3 of which was actually whether she is aware of any arrangements that were

4 in place to have protection while they were on the road to wherever they

5 were heading, protection by means of either guarded soldiers or guards or

6 whatever.

7 MR. WUBBEN:

8 Q. The question is, Witness: Were you aware of any such arrangements

9 for protection of the group of civilians?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And during that journey you learned from no one about any action,

12 any planned action or operation, on Bjelovac?

13 A. No. I told you last time that I had no contact with anyone but my

14 neighbour.

15 Q. Now, after your arrival in Poloznik, you tried to get to Bjelovac.

16 Isn't that true?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And that was the 14th of December, if I recall correctly?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And can you tell me about the circumstances of that trip, because

21 you already reiterated in beginning this afternoon that you only came

22 halfway.

23 A. Yes, I only managed to get halfway there to Poloznik. I came to

24 Loznicka Rijeka, which is halfway.

25 Q. What made you stop?

1 A. We were stopped by the numerous shells and the aviation -- the

2 planes that flew above us constantly.

3 Q. And did you try to wait and to move on forwards Bjelovac, as

4 aimed?

5 A. For some five to ten minutes only when the shelling started, we

6 started withdrawing towards Poloznik hiding under the trees, going from

7 one tree to the next one. And this is how we were protecting ourselves

8 from the shells and the aviation.

9 Q. But I take it then that the whole group hide for the shelling --

10 or how many -- by the way, I will rephrase the question. How big was the

11 group? How many people were there aiming for Bjelovac with you?

12 A. Do you mean the 14th?

13 Q. Yes. Yes.

14 A. It was a large group. And whoever was able to find shelter under

15 the tree, did that. Others just stood on the goat path expecting to be

16 hit and killed.

17 Q. And can you give a number in that respect? Hundreds? Hundreds of

18 people in that group?

19 A. Thousands, not hundreds.

20 Q. And I don't recall that I put that question to you, so why

21 specific Bjelovac? Was that because of you living there before?

22 MR. WUBBEN: I recall that she told something about getting

23 properties in --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah --

25 MR. WUBBEN: -- her house.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Because she said she left a lot of food in her

2 house.

3 MR. WUBBEN: So I withdraw that question, please.

4 Q. And next question is: So you were hiding from the shelling and

5 what did you do after that, after you hide?

6 A. After that, as I said, we went from one tree to the next one

7 trying to find shelter from the shells and the aviation. And after that I

8 returned to Poloznik.

9 Q. So it was a fact that this large group -- sorry, this large number

10 of people you were in were indeed stopped by shelling and stopped -- and

11 shooting, isn't it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Stopped for going to Bjelovac and -- including you, stopped from

14 getting food or properties, isn't it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can I -- can I take it, given your testimony, that you rather get

17 killed than return without food to Srebrenica? Did you at least tried

18 once more to get to Bjelovac?

19 A. Well, when I returned on that occasion to Poloznik, I didn't know

20 whether I would be hit by a shell or by the planes. I didn't know whether

21 I would die there or reach Poloznik alive.

22 Q. What I mean is -- and let me be clear with it. I don't want to

23 have you misunderstanding. I know the tragedies during wartime, but I try

24 to understand. You were very -- verifies in stating to the Court: I

25 rather get killed than return empty-handed to my family. And later on, I

1 rather get a bullet than return without food. So I tried to understand

2 you in such a desperate situation that no cost you will get that food.

3 And please explain to me that you indeed tried once more and more again,

4 because that should be the outcome of such a statement. Can you explain,

5 please.

6 A. Well, naturally I wanted to get there; that was my wish. But due

7 to the very intense shelling, we were unable to get there.

8 Q. I move to another issue. You met in Loznica you met Mira

9 Filipovic, isn't it?

10 A. No, not in Loznica but rather in Poloznik.

11 Q. Poloznik. I apologise. Thank you for this correction. Was her

12 husband with her when she arrived at Poloznik?

13 A. No.

14 Q. And what was her attitude? Was she at ease or did -- was she

15 frightened? Can you tell us?

16 A. Well, no, she was not relaxed, exactly. The two of us talked and

17 her attitude was - how should I put it? - rather normal, fairly normal.

18 She was not too scared.

19 Q. Her son was wounded, isn't she -- isn't it?

20 A. No, no. The Brano boy was wounded.

21 Q. Did she tell -- did she also tell you where her husband was?

22 A. She didn't say anything about her husband. I know nothing about

23 that.

24 Q. Didn't she -- did she tell you that her husband didn't knew where

25 she was at the moment?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you learn later on, I mean after all these events, after you

3 returned to Srebrenica in the years after, did you learn later on a rumour

4 that Mira jumped in the river Drina and -- as well as her children,

5 something like that? A rumour?

6 A. No. I was with Mira in Poloznik the entire night.

7 Q. No. I mean afterwards. After you met Mira and then later on you

8 went to Srebrenica. In the years after, did you find out as well because

9 you met her and you know that she was in Poloznik, but that there was also

10 a rumour that she jumped into the river Drina?

11 A. No.

12 Q. I would like to move to that house where you were in together with

13 Mira. Was it in the centre of Poloznik or in the -- in the neighbourhood

14 of the centre? Can you tell us?

15 A. In the centre of Poloznik.

16 Q. I will show you a map.

17 MR. WUBBEN: And, Your Honours, I have a map prepared to show to

18 the witness.

19 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I just have one issue with this map. I'm

20 sure Your Honours would point it out in any event. There's a date on the

21 map and obviously --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me see it before then. One moment before you

23 give it to the --

24 MR. WUBBEN: My learned friend means the date in the middle,

25 under.

1 MR. JONES: Yes. It's simply this: That I don't want it to be

2 suggested to this witness that this map necessarily represents the state

3 of roads, et cetera, in 1992. There's a date, obviously a later date, and

4 I wouldn't want the witness to be confused by thinking that this

5 necessarily depicts the situation in 1992.

6 MR. WUBBEN: We can, we can --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Fair enough. I think that's fair enough and she had

8 heard what you've said.

9 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honours, we can be frank about that and

10 transparent to the witness.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

12 MR. WUBBEN: This is a map from that date.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

14 MR. WUBBEN: And then I will ask something about what she knows.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead. It's no big deal, actually. We

16 can -- yes. Go ahead.

17 MR. WUBBEN:

18 Q. Witness, you see the map in front of you. Can you point out the

19 village that you were in, Poloznik, where you met Mira Filipovic?

20 A. It's here.

21 MR. WUBBEN: It's not so clear on my monitor, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: She found it. All right.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Poloznik.

24 MR. WUBBEN:

25 Q. Can you please encircle it with one of the pencils.

1 A. [Marks]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

3 MR. WUBBEN:

4 Q. Can you also track the village of Pirici?

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Is it correct that from Pirici towards the Drina River there is a

7 road? Can you confirm that, to your knowledge?

8 A. Could you please repeat the question.

9 Q. My question is: Can you confirm that in your knowledge there is a

10 road from Pirici towards the Drina River, towards the main road,

11 Bratunac-Skelani?

12 MR. JONES: Again, is that on the map or at the same period of

13 time? That's what I don't follow.

14 MR. WUBBEN: To your -- to her knowledge. The next question will

15 be time frame.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The road to Pirici was also narrow,

17 and the road to Loznicka Rijeka. Up until -- from Loznicka Rijeka to

18 Bratunac there was a real road, whereas the other one was just a dirt

19 road.

20 MR. WUBBEN:

21 Q. Now, is this road from Pirici towards the road Bratunac-Skelani,

22 this main road along the Drina River?

23 MR. WUBBEN: I'm leading now, I'm aware of it.

24 Q. That road from Pirici towards that main road that I mentioned, is

25 that a broader road?

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Than what?

2 MR. WUBBEN:

3 Q. Broader than the road Poloznik-Pirici?

4 A. No. These are also narrow village roads.

5 Q. Now, what do you mean by "narrow village roads"? From Pirici

6 towards that main road, how broad is that in your estimation? Can you

7 give that in metres or ...

8 A. As I said last time, this is a goat path for pedestrians. That's

9 the kind of road it was. It was less than a metre wide.

10 Q. But you testified in that respect regarding the road

11 Poloznik-Pirici. But now I only ask for the road from Pirici towards that

12 main road that leads to Bratunac. Is that a metre broad in your testimony

13 as well or broader?

14 A. From Pirici to Loznicka Rijeka, the road is as I've described.

15 And from Loznicka Rijeka to Bratunac there is an asphalt road.

16 Q. Yes. But is there a road from the main road to Pirici, yes or no?

17 A. No.

18 Q. So for the villages of Poloznik-Pirici there is no road to come to

19 the main road from Bratunac to Skelani?

20 A. There is no proper road, as I told you. These roads are narrow

21 village roads meant for pedestrians only.

22 Q. Has there ever been a road in the past from the main road up to

23 Pirici, other than a pedestrian road?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Thank you for that exhibit.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 MR. WUBBEN: Please bear me a moment.

2 [Prosecution counsel confer]

3 MR. WUBBEN: Will you please give it a exhibit number,

4 Your Honour?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

6 MR. WUBBEN: I want to tender it.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: This will become Prosecution Exhibit P5 --

8 THE REGISTRAR: P576, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: 76. Thank you. Yes, yes, Judge Eser.

10 JUDGE ESER: I am still a little bit confused, Mrs. Sinanovic.

11 When we have the map in front of us, there's a road on the map going from

12 the road Bjelovac-Skelani to Pirici and it's clearly lined in the map.

13 And there seems to be a connection between Pirici and Poloznik. Now, is

14 this the same road? Is it possible to go by a car from Bjelovac to

15 Pirici? Even if it is not an asphalt road, is it possible to go by car

16 from Bjelovac to Pirici?

17 MR. JONES: Again, is this December 1992?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19 JUDGE ESER: And --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: This is why Mr. Jones pointed out the date of this

21 map, because this may be misleading. The situation as it was in 1992, and

22 we are concentrating on 1992.

23 MR. WUBBEN: And I submit that she -- she even stated that there

24 never has been a road ever at any time.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: That's her testimony. I mean, I'm not questioning

1 her testimony or commenting on it of course.

2 MR. JONES: Well, Your Honour, just at the last [inaudible]

3 Mr. Wubben, he said has there ever in the past, which was -- certainly for

4 my part, I wouldn't understand that to mean at this moment right now there

5 is no such road.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not saying there is.

7 MR. JONES: That was his comment.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: But I'm not commenting, of course. The only thing

9 is, if I may add on what Judge Eser has pointed out, did the people, to

10 your knowledge, the people in Pirici, did they own cars? Did they --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Did they have tractors?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Were they engaged in agriculture mainly?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, agriculture, but they were

16 using ox-carts and horses to work the land.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but then after having worked the land and

18 taken up the produce and collected the produce, would they sell it outside

19 of Pirici or not?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: So the people of Pirici were literally in 1992 cut

22 off completely from the rest of -- of the area in a sense that none of

23 them could travel by car? There was no way you could get into or out of

24 the village of Pirici by car?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: It's -- I don't think we could have it more clear

2 than that. I'm sorry for having -- but, basically, I was picking up on

3 what you were obviously trying to -- but this is what I had understood

4 from the very beginning, basically, but I just wanted her to explain it

5 better.

6 Yes, Mr. Wubben.

7 MR. WUBBEN:

8 Q. And in addition -- and in addition then of the questions by --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps if, usher, you could ask the witness to sign

12 her name at the top right-hand corner of the map in the white part,

13 please, on the white margin.

14 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry for having interrupted you, Mr. Wubben.

16 I thank you, Madam.

17 Yes, Mr. Wubben.

18 MR. WUBBEN:

19 Q. To sum up, is it then your testimony that there is no road now nor

20 has there ever been a road from Pirici towards the main road?

21 A. No, there never was a road before, and as for now I don't know.

22 Most likely there isn't one.

23 Q. Thank you. I return to the town of Srebrenica. You've been there

24 from June 1992. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. You stated that you didn't notice any police. Am I correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So during the time from June, and I know that there was this

4 interruption of this journey in December, but from June you didn't see any

5 policemen at all in the streets of Srebrenica?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Does that mean you did saw or the confirmation that you didn't

8 saw?

9 A. I didn't see.

10 Q. You didn't see. Are you familiar a building called the SUP

11 building in Srebrenica?

12 A. No.

13 MR. WUBBEN: One moment, please.

14 Q. You state you didn't saw any policemen. Did you saw any persons

15 in uniform in Srebrenica at the time, from June 1992?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Does that also include that you didn't saw any soldiers, any

18 fighters in uniforms?

19 A. That confirms that I didn't see them.

20 Q. Did you saw any person from that time from June 1992 wearing any

21 arms in Srebrenica?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you ever heard of a person called Naser Oric at the time?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You stayed there from June 1992 until what year and month in

1 Srebrenica?

2 A. Until the fall of Srebrenica in 1995, on the 11th of July.

3 Q. So it is your testimony that from June 1992 until 1995 you didn't

4 hear about the person called Naser Oric. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you hear of a name of Zulfo Tursunovic?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And meaning also during that period of time, 1992/1995, is that

9 correct, you didn't learn about this person?

10 A. I said "no."

11 Q. Did you heard about a person called Akif Ustic at the time?

12 A. No. I was a refugee from Bratunac, so I know none of these

13 people.

14 Q. But you confirmed that you didn't know of those people that I

15 mentioned, that also never heard of them, isn't it?

16 A. That's right. I'm confirming that I never heard of them.

17 MR. WUBBEN: Please bear me a moment.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly, Mr. Wubben.

19 MR. WUBBEN:

20 Q. About the person Slavoljub Filipovic, your former neighbour. You

21 testified about him that you knew him as being a hooligan, isn't it?

22 A. I didn't say that he was a hooligan. He was just a person who

23 liked provoking incidents while we went to school.

24 Q. And this very person also moved into your property, setting up a

25 cafe, isn't it?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Doesn't that make you angry about him?

3 A. Naturally I am angry. Why would I give my property to somebody

4 else and not be angry about it?

5 MR. WUBBEN: Please bear me a moment.

6 [Prosecution counsel confer]

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 MR. WUBBEN:

9 Q. And about her -- about his wife, Mira Filipovic. You returned --

10 upon your return in Srebrenica, did you ever learned that Mira has been

11 captured and held prisoned in Srebrenica?

12 A. No. When I was with her, that was the occasion when I saw her and

13 then I never heard anything else about her afterwards.

14 MR. WUBBEN: That was my last question, Your Honour. That

15 finalised my cross.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben.

17 Is there re-examination, Mr. Jones?

18 MR. JONES: Yes, just a few, brief questions.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Take your time. We have three-quarters of an

20 hour.

21 MR. JONES: Thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And I assure you we are not going to fill all of

23 it.

24 MR. JONES: Thank you.

25 Re-examined by Mr. Jones:

1 Q. Ms. Sinanovic, going back to April 1992 you were asked about

2 village guards and you said you also saw soldiers during the daytime, Serb

3 soldiers. Now, when you saw them during the daytime in Bjelovac, were

4 they guarding anything?

5 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I protest. She -- she was referring to

6 village guards and not connecting the issue of guarding towards the

7 soldiers in her testimony. And this suggestion goes too far, this guiding

8 the witness.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Mr. Jones. Village guard automatically

10 implies that they are there to guard something or someone.

11 MR. JONES: Yes, precisely.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Particularly the village.

13 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, with all respect, but village guards can

14 be civilians who act as guards.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

16 MR. WUBBEN: But that's different from a soldier in an army.

17 MR. JONES: That's precisely my question. In fact, that's what

18 I'm getting at, whether the soldiers were actually doing any guarding, the

19 soldiers she saw during the day, never mind any civilians.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: She said village guards and that she saw soldiers

21 during the daytime and that they were Serb, of Serb nationality. Now, the

22 question is: "Now, when you saw them during the daytime in Bjelovac, were

23 they guarding anything?" What's wrong with that question? What were

24 they -- basically, you can also ask her directly when she saw these

25 soldiers or these village guards, what they were doing according to her.

1 MR. WUBBEN: That's fine with me.

2 MR. JONES: I'll ask that question.

3 Q. Yes, the soldiers, by that I mean people in uniforms with weapons

4 that you saw during the day, what were they doing?

5 A. I saw those soldiers. They walked down the street next to my

6 house and they went in the direction of the school. The school was at a

7 distance of about 50 metres by my house. I didn't know those people. I

8 didn't say that they were on guard that day; I just saw them walk by, walk

9 down the street. And they went in the direction of the school.

10 Q. Right. So you said you didn't know them. Do I take it from that

11 that they weren't from Bjelovac?

12 A. Yes, I did not know them.

13 Q. And I think it's fair enough for me to ask the question: Did they

14 appear to be guarding anything?

15 A. Perhaps -- well, I don't know how to answer that question. If you

16 see a uniformed soldier, I mean, what else is he supposed to do?

17 Q. Now, you mentioned when you were at Cvijeta Ilic's house you saw

18 Novo Ilic. Remind us what he was wearing and whether he was armed.

19 A. Yes. He was wearing an olive-drab uniform and he was carrying a

20 rifle when I saw him, when I saw them, actually, Slavoljub and him.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a very important

22 correction. The witness did not say in her reply that when she saw

23 uniformed men, what else, what other things, they were supposed to do, but

24 what are they meant to do. Because we feel it would change the

25 significance and the meaning of her statement.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's proceed, Mr. Jones.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have that clarified?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think we need to, Mr. Jones, let's go ahead.

4 Proceed. It doesn't make a difference in the minds in fact Trial Chamber,

5 so proceed.

6 MR. JONES:

7 Q. To summarise, when you were at Cvijeta Ilic's, you saw Novo Ilic

8 in uniform and with a weapon, you saw Slavoljub Filipovic in uniform with

9 a weapon. Did you see any other Serbs in the vicinity of that house who

10 were uniformed and armed?

11 A. Not on that evening.

12 Q. On some other evening?

13 A. I saw the teacher, Sarac, beforehand, and the others when they got

14 there, and the soldiers who went down the street.

15 Q. Right. Now, you were asked about village guards. You've referred

16 to these people, Novo Ilic, Slavoljub Filipovic, Sarac. When you spoke --

17 you agreed they were guards, were you referring to those people or did you

18 have other people in mind?

19 A. I said that because his mother, Cvijeta, told me that we should

20 get out of the house for five minute and stay in the darkness out there

21 because they wanted to go and do their guard duty; that's what I said.

22 She said that we should get out of their way for five minutes and give

23 them time to leave and take up their guard duty.

24 Q. All right. And finally, let me put it this way: Did you in

25 Bjelovac in April and May 1992 see anyone in civilian clothes who you

1 would describe as a village guard?

2 A. If it's a village guard, as far as I'm concerned I don't know who

3 that could be keeping guard in civilian clothes because I did not go out

4 of my own house to go observing any other people or checking on anyone's

5 movements. I mean, how could I describe that? How could I see that?

6 Q. All right. So I mean, for you the village guard that you saw were

7 uniformed and armed. Would that be correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. You were also asked about whether you saw any

10 trenches, I think it was, in Bjelovac and you said no. Do you know a

11 place called Podbrdje?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you ever see any sort of fortification there in April, May

14 1992?

15 A. I saw it when I went to see my parents in Bratunac on the 11th of

16 May, in the morning of that day. A day or two earlier I also went to

17 Bratunac because my parents were ill, and there was a kind of checkpoint

18 where we were asked to show our IDs. And there was a kind of shelter

19 there. And on the 11th of May when I set out, there were sacks all along

20 this road. There was a kind of shelter built for those soldiers, the

21 entire lane.

22 Q. All right. I actually heard the word "bunker" in Bosnian. Did

23 you use the word "bunker" or did you say shelter?

24 A. Bunker.

25 Q. And who was manning this bunker, to your knowledge, Serbs or

1 Muslims?

2 A. Serbs.

3 Q. All right. Now, moving on to 14th of December, 1992, it was --

4 will you accept it that you and your -- the group you were with were

5 stopped or prevented by shelling from getting into Bjelovac. You also

6 mentioned earlier in your testimony that other groups were going to other

7 places like Brezovica. So my question is: Was yours the only group of

8 civilians trying to get into Bjelovac, to your knowledge, or were the

9 people -- the groups in the broader area also moving around?

10 A. In the broader area.

11 Q. And were you aware at that stage of people going to Voljavica and

12 Zaluzje, some of those places?

13 A. Yes, because they just went looking for food.

14 Q. Now, you told us how you tried to get to Bjelovac on the 14th of

15 December, 1992, and that you actually got there on the 20th to the 21st of

16 December, 1992. Now, what were you doing in that period in between? Were

17 you simply resting in Poloznik or were you trying to get into Bjelovac?

18 A. I was trying to get in. How could I consider resting, hungry as I

19 was?

20 Q. So were you trying to get in every day, into Bjelovac, in that

21 period?

22 A. Yes, but because of all the shelling and aviation, as I said, I

23 was unable to.

24 Q. Right. Now, dealing with Poloznik and access to Poloznik. Was it

25 possible to get from - and I'm including Pirici as well - Pirici, Poloznik

1 down to the Drina on ox or on horse on the path that you've described?

2 A. Yes, on horseback between Poloznik and Pirici.

3 Q. And from Pirici down to the Drina, were people able to pass from

4 there; and if so, how?

5 A. Can you repeat the question, please?

6 Q. Yes. How did people get from Pirici down to Loznicka Rijeka and

7 the Drina?

8 A. Do you mean on that day, on the 14th or what?

9 Q. No. My apologies for being unclear. Before the war.

10 A. That's what they did before the war, on horseback.

11 Q. Rite. So it's not the case that Pirici and Poloznik were

12 completely cut off from the rest of the world, is it?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you know if people - and only if you know - but whether the

15 people in Pirici and Poloznik worked outside of those villages? In other

16 words, if they travelled to a town and had jobs there, if that's something

17 you know about?

18 A. Yes. Most people worked at the Sase mine in Bratunac, but they

19 walked to Loznicka Rijeka and then got on the bus and travelled in the

20 direction of wherever they job -- their job was.

21 Q. All right. Thank you. I can see I think you're getting tired.

22 And I just have four or five questions so if you'll bear with me,

23 Ms. Sinanovic. On this subject, it might seem strange to us in the West

24 to think of a village which has no access by car. Is that unusual in

25 Eastern Bosnia in 1992 or is that something which did occur?

1 A. It did exist. What I said is the truth. Not a single family in

2 Poloznik or in Pirici owned a car; they didn't even have their driver's

3 license because they didn't need it because they couldn't have accessed

4 their homes by car. And Poloznik and Pirici are both at a fairly high

5 altitude.

6 Q. Okay. Now, you were asked about whether you knew the SUP building

7 in Srebrenica. You also told us that you -- you're from Bratunac

8 municipality. Did you actually visit Srebrenica, the town, much before

9 the war?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Sorry. I have another question. I'm going back to Pirici and

12 Poloznik for one moment. When did you leave the Srebrenica-Bratunac area?

13 A. I left the Bratunac area -- or rather, I left the Bjelovac on the

14 11th of May and I was in Poloznik until the morning of the 2nd of June.

15 On the 2nd of June I set off in the direction of Srebrenica and the

16 journey took about 24 hours until we got to Srebrenica.

17 Q. Yes. Sorry. It's my fault. I should have been -- made it

18 clearer. After the fall of Srebrenica in July 1995, did you -- did you

19 return to live in either the Srebrenica or Bratunac municipalities?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Have you been back to visit that area much in the last ten years?

22 A. Yes. First I went to my place, Bjelovac, on the 4th of August,

23 1998.

24 Q. Right. But as far as whether there's a road or not between Pirici

25 and the Bratunac-Skelani road, is that something you've actually been able

1 to verify for yourself in the last ten years or not?

2 A. No.

3 Q. It was also put to you and you accepted that to a certain extent

4 you were angry with Slavoljub Filipovic for taking your property. Has

5 that affected your testimony about him today in any way?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Have you given truthful testimony about him today?

8 A. Yes. Yes.

9 Q. Are you angry against Mira Filipovic?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Are you angry against Slavka Matic?

12 A. [No interpretation]

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. JONES: I have no further questions.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Jones.

16 Judge Brydensholt has -- yes, one moment.

17 MR. JONES: Sorry, her "no" wasn't interpreted for Slavka Matic.

18 Q. Would you repeat your answer, please?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I notice that now, too. For the record I heard her

20 say "no." Yes, let's proceed.

21 Yes, Judge Brydensholt.

22 Questioned by the Court:

23 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: On the 14th of December, 1992, when you were

24 asked to go to this cellar where Mira Filipovic was, what did she say to

25 you when you arrived, do you remember?

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 A. She wasn't in the cellar; she was on the ground floor. We talked

2 nicely and she told me that Rosa Ilic and the Ilic family in general

3 collected my belongings from my house, my property.

4 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Did she give any explanation why she was found

5 where you found her?

6 A. No. She didn't mention anything.

7 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Were you very surprised when you saw her? She

8 was not a Muslim and I guess you were very surprised?

9 A. Yes. Well, I did say that that man said to me, Okay, since you're

10 neighbours, you knew one another and she had been working at the mine as a

11 cook, that it would be a good idea for me to sit with her so as for her

12 not to be disturbed by anyone and for me to take care of the children

13 during the night and everything. And she didn't say anything much. At

14 first we talked to each other. We exchanged some views, and then she lied

15 down and tried to get some sleep.

16 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: She was not crying in any way?

17 A. No.

18 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: When you returned to Srebrenica after the 20th

19 or 21st, didn't you hear anything about what had happened to Mira?

20 A. No.

21 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Well, thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge Brydensholt.

23 Judge Eser, yes.

24 JUDGE ESER: I also would like to come back to the 13th or 14th of

25 December. You told us that more than thousand people have been on the way

1 in the direction to Bjelovac. Now, my question is: In the same period of

2 time do you know whether there was on some other day a lot of people,

3 thousands of people, would go to Bjelovac? Or was it only on the 13th or

4 14th of December that thousands of people would go to the direction of

5 Bjelovac.

6 MR. JONES: I think she said to Poloznik.

7 JUDGE ESER: Poloznik. I said direction of Bjelovac. I mean,

8 Bjelovac, if you look at the map, is not far away from Poloznik. Let's

9 say Bjelovac, Poloznik, Pirici --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me intervene a little bit.

11 MR. JONES: It has to be precise.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: There is a part, there is a part in the testimony

13 where certainly she is being referred then to her movement towards

14 Bjelovac and she is roughly indicating that she intended -- was trying to

15 get to Bjelovac and she didn't succeed. And then a question was put to

16 her because she mentioned a group and she said there was quite a number or

17 something like that, and she was asked what that number was like and she

18 said it was thousand, thousands, thousands.

19 MR. JONES: It's something that is a very important issue for us,

20 and if the witness speaks about thousands going in the direction of

21 Poloznik, which I don't agree is on the direction to Bjelovac, I don't

22 want it suggested to her that thousands of people went to Bjelovac.

23 That's not her testimony and we can check in the transcript whether she

24 ever said that thousands of people on the same day all headed towards

25 Bjelovac. I'm sure she didn't say that.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Let me find it. Roughly -- not

2 roughly, we are on page 63 and 64. Now, we go to page 63, line 21 and the

3 question was: "But I take it then that the whole group hide for the

4 shelling" -- forgive me for reading the transcript as it is. "Or how

5 many, by the way? I rephrase the question. How many people were there

6 aiming for Bjelovac with you?" The answer: "Do you mean the 14th?"

7 "Q. Yes, yes.

8 "A. It was a large group and whoever was able to find shelter

9 under the trees did that. Others just stood on the goat path expecting to

10 be hit and killed.

11 "Q. Can you give a number in that respect, hundreds, hundreds of

12 people in that group?

13 "A. Thousands, not hundreds."

14 So, definitely, this answer, as to whether it's correct or not is

15 another number. But definitely the answer of thousands was in relation to

16 a previous question that referred her to her attempt to reach Bjelovac

17 together with others.

18 MR. JONES: Yes, she's trying to get to Bjelovac. There are

19 thousands of people are in Poloznik. It's wrong to say that there were

20 thousands going towards Bjelovac.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop here, now, for the time being, because I think

22 the discussion has gone a little bit too far in the presence of the

23 witness now.

24 Please repeat your question, Judge Eser. Sorry for having

25 interrupted you, but -- I got your point, Mr. Jones, but I think you have

1 to concede that when she said thousands she was answering a question more

2 or less as to what was the situation where she was trying to head towards

3 Bjelovac. So let's get Judge Eser's question again. I don't see it on my

4 screen so I have to get back a page or two.

5 "Judge Eser: Now, my question is: In the same period of time do

6 you know whether there was on some other day a lot of people, thousands of

7 people, would go to Bjelovac? Or was it only on the 13th or 14th of

8 December that thousands of people would go to the direction of Bjelovac?"

9 So now she can answer the question. If -- if you believe that

10 what is being suggested to you that on the 14th there weren't thousands of

11 people going to Bjelovac, please say so, but do try to answer the

12 question. Also, which basically asks from you whether you are aware that

13 there may have been other days on which people tried -- or thousands tried

14 to reach Bjelovac.

15 JUDGE ESER: Or the area of Bjelovac. I was saying in the

16 direction of Bjelovac instead of going to Zvornik or Fakovici or somewhere

17 else. The question was --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Right.

19 JUDGE ESER: -- the broad direction of Bjelovac including some

20 other villages like Voljevica or Pirici or Poloznik. That was my

21 question. Whether only on the 13th or 14th there was a big group of

22 people going towards this area or whether there have been other days where

23 a similar great group of people would go in the --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: In the same direction.

25 JUDGE ESER: -- same direction.

1 MR. JONES: Which includes Voljevica.

2 JUDGE ESER: Yes, of course.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Now it's definitely a broader area than the town of

4 Bjelovac itself.

5 JUDGE ESER: Does the question -- do you -- could you please

6 answer.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: She may still be receiving interpretation; I don't

8 know.

9 A. Could you please repeat the question.

10 JUDGE ESER: So my question is: You told us that on the 13th or

11 14th, at least in these two days, there has been a lot of people, more

12 than thousands of people, were moving into the broader area of Bjelovac,

13 not only to the city of Bjelovac, town of Bjelovac, but also the

14 neighbouring --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Surrounding places.

16 JUDGE ESER: -- surrounding villages. Now my question is whether

17 it was only on these days that such a large group of people would move in

18 this direction or whether also on other days before the 13th or after the

19 13th you had a big movement of people going into this direction? That's

20 my question. I think it's not so difficult to answer.

21 A. On other days as well. There would be people trying to get to

22 Bjelovac, Zaluzje, and Voljevica to get some kind of food. Large groups

23 of people would be setting off after the 14th of December.

24 JUDGE ESER: So large groups, more than thousands of people?

25 A. Yes.

1 JUDGE ESER: But did you see by your own eyes that these people --

2 such large groups of people would go to this direction?

3 A. No. I don't mean thousands or more than a thousand people. What

4 I mean is larger groups, hundreds of people or so. I didn't actually say

5 more than a thousand.

6 JUDGE ESER: I think you have -- I remember that you said more

7 than thousand people, but at --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway.

9 JUDGE ESER: -- any rate, on other days the groups have been

10 smaller than on the 13th and 14th. I have no further questions. Thank

11 you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Sinanovic, I don't have any questions for you,

13 which means that your testimony comes to an end here.

14 On behalf of the Tribunal, but particularly on behalf of Judge

15 Brydensholt, Judge Eser, and on my own behalf I should like to thank you

16 for having accepted to come over and give testimony as a Defence witness.

17 You will now be escorted out of the courtroom by Madam Usher and other

18 members of our staff will extend to you all their -- the help and

19 assistance that you require to facilitate your return back home at the

20 earliest possible. Once more, I thank you. And on behalf of everyone, I

21 wish you a safe journey back home.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Jones, I inquired with a member of the

24 registry -- you may remain seated. It's okay. A member of the registry

25 about that matter about the practice that they have adopted in the past.

1 [The witness withdrew]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And since I am not aware of who you have in mind,

3 obviously, and whether you have in mind of having the examination, the

4 tests, carried out here in the Netherlands or outside of the Netherlands,

5 I did alert them to that possibility. So if that is not the case, please

6 tell me because it will -- it will facilitate matters. Because in the

7 other cases, obviously, they did not have this problem to -- to deal with.

8 MR. JONES: Yes. It would be a question of examination outside

9 the Netherlands.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Outside the Netherlands.

11 MR. JONES: And using his own equipment. Thank you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

13 And therefore, Mr. Wubben, you also need -- because as I explained

14 earlier we definitely -- and for the time being at least we definitely see

15 a difference between documents which are exhibits and therefore within the

16 jurisdiction of the Trial Chamber with the accompanying relative

17 responsibility of the registrar and documents which are the exclusive

18 property of the Prosecution for which the Trial Chamber is not for the

19 time being responsible, and neither is the registrar. So please do take

20 -- keep that in mind. This may delay the document that I have asked from

21 them by a couple -- by a few days. Maybe sometime in the course of next

22 week anyway.

23 MR. JONES: Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: But I just wanted to alert you. Which gives you

25 time also to think about how you are going to adapt yourself to this

1 emerging situation.

2 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't need to tell me anything now, Mr. Wubben.

4 MR. WUBBEN: I am aware of it, but I want to add when my learned

5 friend add to it that this expert will use his own equipment, then it

6 might be good also to clarify what institute or -- these are -- these

7 laboratories are well-known star lab or qualified as such, and that will

8 be important for the Prosecution.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones comes from the same tradition that I do,

10 and I don't doubt for a moment that we will have that information.

11 MR. JONES: Could I ask if that -- if the registry practice, if

12 that's in some written form that that can be circulated to the parties so

13 we can then take that into account in finalising our motion.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I asked the registrar to report to me, and when I

15 said "to me," it's to me, and then of course I will sit down with the

16 other Judges. I don't know what kind of a form, but I said it in the form

17 of a memo, that will be for me, which basically will explain the procedure

18 that has been followed in the past, the protocol that they have used

19 because I want to know and because I haven't done it in the past here

20 myself. So this is all new for me here. I know how it's done in your

21 country, how we do it in my country, but --

22 MR. JONES: It's just that then our motion can gel better with the

23 practice because we can say that we either would adhere to that practice

24 or --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I will let you know, obviously, and this is why I'm

1 asking for it. It's not just for my own satisfaction about learning about

2 it. It's then to letting you know about it as well.

3 MR. JONES: I'm obliged.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: The other thing, of course, I mean, this sending

5 documents or exhibits from one country to the other is nothing new. My

6 country when we were not in a position as yet to cope with demand for DNA

7 analysis, we used to send them abroad. But there was certain practices

8 that we, of course -- protocol that we adopted, the same when we sent

9 matters, used to send matters to Scotland Yard for more in-depth analysis,

10 or to the Italian police.

11 So I can assure you that this will not present a problem. But

12 definitely as far as the Prosecution is concerned, they will -- you will

13 need to come back to us your position in as loud and clear a fashion as

14 possible. Right. Because although we are not responsible for your

15 documents, we will become responsible for your documents the moment we

16 enter -- we ask you to make them available, and that becomes our

17 responsibility. Your responsibility continues, but our responsibility

18 starts from that very moment that we say, yes, you have to make them

19 available.

20 MR. WUBBEN: We can inform your Trial Chamber by way of a response

21 to the motion --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes.

23 MR. WUBBEN: And we will include in that specific part, also that

24 we will adhere or modify some policy.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: But what I am a little bit concerned about in my

1 mind is that time is passing. I mean, it's -- and I don't know how much

2 time this gentleman or lady or group of forensic experts would require to

3 conduct and conclude their examinations and report thereupon and I don't

4 want to waste time or lose time. So this is my anxiety. I mean, if you

5 can call it an anxiety. It's more of a concern than an anxiety.

6 MR. JONES: We share the concerns as well about the physical

7 security. That's why we won't be sending it -- won't sending them to

8 Italy. No offence to Madam Usher.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. Let me not comment on that, but the

10 Italians have helped us a lot in our forensic requirements, and they are

11 amongst the best equipped in Europe today.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, let -- I wish to thank you for having

13 cooperated together but also with the Trial Chamber for having been --

14 succeeded in sending this witness back home. The coming week will be used

15 to dispose of the protective measures -- the 002. I think it should be

16 filed on Monday at the latest. Basically we have come to a conclusion but

17 it takes time to have it prepared. We will deal with the matter of the

18 three documents that we got yesterday and come back to you as to whether

19 we believe there has been a violation of Rule 68 or maybe we would like

20 some further explanations from you in particular. And if in the meantime

21 you are in a position to file your response on the -- or reaction on the

22 Rule 70 motion and response of Prosecution, you would be filing it at a

23 time when we can dispose of it within a very short time.

24 MR. JONES: Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Otherwise we are going to be occupied with another

1 case and I am going to be occupied with other cases in addition to that.

2 So --

3 MR. JONES: Yes. We -- just to inform the Chamber. We were

4 awaiting a response from the government in question, which we've now

5 received. So that means that actually next week we should be able to file

6 a further reply. We will be out of time, but I trust that that doesn't

7 make a problem.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not a problem, I can assure you that's not a

9 problem. I thank you. Have a nice weekend all of you, and we will meet

10 again on the 26th, I think.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.39 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Monday, the 26th day of

13 September, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25