1 Thursday, 29 September 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9:06 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, could you call the case,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope you are the same Naser Oric we have been

10 seeing for a year and a half. Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in

11 your own language?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour, ladies

13 and gentlemen, I can follow the proceedings in my own language.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Good morning to you, and you may

15 sit down.

16 Appearances for the Prosecution.

17 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours, and also good morning to

18 my learned friends of the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel

19 for the Prosecution. I am here together with co-counsel,

20 Ms. Patricia Sellers, Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio, and Ms. Joanne Richardson, and

21 our case manager, Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben, and good morning to you

23 and your team.

24 Appearances for Naser Oric.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

1 morning to the colleagues from the Prosecution. I am Vasvija Vidovic, and

2 together with Mr. John Jones I appear for Mr. Naser Oric. We are joined

3 this morning by our legal assistants, Ms. Adisa Mehic and

4 Ms. Jasmina Cosic, and our case manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Vidovic, and good morning to you.

6 Any preliminaries?

7 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's bring the witness.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's bring the witness in. And how much time do

11 you think you will take with this witness so that we prepare the other

12 documents for the other witness because I left them in my room.

13 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I do think I'll take the first period

14 and part of the second period.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I imagined, yeah. Thank you. I just

16 asked you in case we need them during the first period then I would have

17 to have them brought over, but it's already more than enough documents on

18 my desk here.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Malagic, and welcome back.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Thank

22 you.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Hopefully this will be your last day in this

24 courtroom, and then you can go back home. We are continuing with the

25 cross-examination. May I just remind you that are you still testifying

1 under oath.

2 Ms. Sellers.

3 MS. SELLERS: Thank you.

4 WITNESS: AZIR MALAGIC [Resumed]

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 Cross-examined by Ms. Sellers: [Continued]

7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Malagic, how are you?

8 A. Thank you. Fine.

9 Q. Good. Mr. Malagic, you testified on your first day of giving

10 evidence before the Tribunal concerning the attacks in Likari and that

11 Naser Oric and his men from Potocari came to assist the attack that you

12 were present at on July 2nd. You confirm that testimony; right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you testified that Mr. Oric was physically ahead of the men

15 behind him. Is that the intent of your testimony?

16 A. He was walking in front of those men from Potocari when they used

17 to come to Likari.

18 Q. And you sincerely testified that those are Naser's men, so I would

19 ask you not only was he physically ahead of them, he was the head -- Naser

20 was ahead of Naser's men. Right?

21 A. There were fighters in Naser's group from Potocari.

22 Q. Mr. Malagic, Naser was the head of Naser's group of fighters.

23 Would you agree with that?

24 A. He was the leader of the group of fighters from Potocari. That's

25 what I said, and we called them Naser's men or the Potocari men or

1 Naserovci as we used to be called Osman's men or Osman's lads or just the

2 people from Voljavica, what have you.

3 Q. Right. Those nicknames were fairly common among the fighting men,

4 you would agree?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I would like to show you now -- thank you. I would like to show

7 you a series of videotapes that concern the fighting in Likari, and I

8 would just ask you to watch your screen.

9 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, these are transcripts that actually

10 come from Prosecution evidence 329 from an interview. So I would just ask

11 the Trial Chamber to ...

12 I understand we're having trouble with the sound for a minute.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I am not receiving any sound.

14 MS. SELLERS: Neither am I.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: There is a humming noise, but that's about it.

16 Otherwise, no sound.

17 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, might I suggest until this problem is

18 resolved that I just move on in my questioning?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, yeah. Of course. One moment.

20 Yes.

21 THE REGISTRAR: He will call the technicians, but we have to make

22 sure there is sound.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: There is sound in this because I've seen it more

24 than twice already, sound in the original language and also in the

25 translation, so it's ...

1 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: No, it's not -- let's move on --

3 MS. SELLERS: Certainly. I'll move on. Today is rather tight.

4 Q. Mr. Malagic, we'll get to those tapes in a minute. I'll move on

5 to a related area of questioning. Yesterday you were able to inform me

6 that because of the radio positioned in Likari that you were able to

7 receive communications from the Bosnian Serbs. And Madam Vidovic asked

8 you several questions about the type of information that you received, and

9 your testimony was that that information included the formation of Serb

10 units, positions of Serb artillery, position of different types of

11 strategic battle plans of the Serbs. Isn't that correct?

12 A. On the basis of those conversations of theirs, we would then carry

13 out further analysis. When they discuss something, we would then analyse

14 it and reach certain conclusions. And some things they would say

15 themselves because they had no protection for their communications and

16 they knew that we had no communications systems, and that's why their

17 communications were not encrypted in any way. And they even mentioned the

18 names quite openly in -- just in case you're interested. On one occasion

19 we were listening to General Mladic talking to Paca [phoen] on a given

20 frequency because that radio device had a number of different frequencies.

21 So we were just looking through various frequencies and some messages were

22 encoded but most of them were not protected. And I do remember quite

23 clearly that we were listening to General Mladic talking to Paca, I

24 believe, and I can't tell you exactly what it was about. It was a very

25 brief conversation, but they had no encryption, no protection for their

1 communications in their -- in that particular area.

2 Q. So, Mr. Malagic, you would agree that you were receiving vital

3 information from the armed enemy on a daily basis or on a very frequent

4 basis. Can you say yes or no.

5 A. In a way, yes. For what we were interested in, in as far as

6 Likari was concerned.

7 Q. You just testified now that when you received that information you

8 analysed the information. Now, how did you analyse that information?

9 Could you just clarify that testimony for me.

10 A. I can. If we heard a new -- a known name -- I mean, for

11 example -- for example, we heard the name of Jovan Nikolic called Jole

12 mentioned in the area of Pobrdje, we knew that he was from Kravica and we

13 knew that together with this unit from Kravica he was involved in the

14 fighting around Likarica [as interpreted]. We would then conclude that

15 they had received reinforcements because we all knew that that person was

16 from Kravica and if he moved to this area we would draw our conclusions.

17 Or, for example, they would say we've got guests from Krajina. And we

18 knew that as soon as those people from Krajina came along we would be

19 subject to fierce attacks. And if they said call the Reds to Sase, and

20 they were in Kunjerac normally, and then we would expect attacks. So we

21 had to do that because of our own interest, very often we were saved by

22 that sort of information because then we could prepare better.

23 Q. Now, when you say "we" I imagine that you're speaking about Osman

24 Malagic's men, that you're speaking about men of Nasir Sabanovic, that

25 you're speaking --

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Naser's men. And who are the other persons you're referring to

3 when you say "we needed this information"?

4 A. When I say "we," I mean the people who were at Likari at that

5 time, the group of Osman Malagic. I was there. Osman was killed on the

6 12th of July and was then replaced by Zajko Alic and Nasir Sabanovic up

7 until the 2nd of July when he was wounded in an attack by Serb forces. He

8 was there, but then he was seriously wounded and he didn't come back. But

9 his people from Potcaus were there with us. So what I mean is the men

10 that were at Likari all the time.

11 Q. Mr. Malagic, you would certainly think that this important

12 information should also be available to people, Muslims who were not just

13 at Likari but who might have been in Srebrenica, Potocari, who might have

14 been on other places of the front line. Isn't that correct?

15 A. Yes. They would have been interested if it was anything about

16 Suceska, Karacici, Osman, and so on.

17 Q. So you must have been very careful as to how you took this

18 information in, and that's what I want to ask you: Did you ever write the

19 information down or did you just memorise it?

20 A. We never described anything and we had nobody in charge listening

21 to this. It was just when we were not in trenches that we found it kind

22 of interesting and we were sitting listening to that radio. And sometimes

23 there was nobody there, but it wasn't a constant duty. We were not forced

24 to follow. It was just of interest for us to listen what names they were

25 mentioning and, for example, if they asked for support by mortar, that was

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1 of course of interest because if you are being shelled from two or three

2 different locations and of course you must look for a better hiding place.

3 That was what we were most interested in.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a clarification

6 for the transcript. The witness said "we never wrote anything down." And

7 it said: "We did not describe anything" in the transcript. I think that

8 there is a semantic difference there. Could you please describe this.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I said we never wrote anything

10 down.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Apologies from the interpreters; acoustically,

12 we didn't hear.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

14 MS. SELLERS: Thank you.

15 Q. You never wrote anything down, but did you tell anyone outside the

16 group in Likari, meaning Osman Malagic's group and Naser Sabanovic's

17 group, did you keep just among those two groups?

18 A. There was no need to say anything to Sabanovic's group, because

19 they were up there, as I said before, his men from Potcaus. So they would

20 listen to it in the same way as we did. What I mean is the group led by

21 Nasir Sabanovic from Potcaus, I did say that they were together with us at

22 Likari, and --

23 Q. So, Mr. Malagic, if I understand correctly, this vital

24 information, information that could save lives, to protect property, was a

25 subject of conversation and only that for the men who were positioned at

1 Likari. That's what I'm to understand. Correct?

2 A. On one occasion, and I've mentioned this in my statement two days

3 ago, when Pirici was about to be attacked and we knew about that, that was

4 the only time we sent Samir Omerovic to the area of Pirici and Poloznik to

5 inform me head Salihovic about that upcoming attack because they were not

6 aware of it up there, and I said that unfortunately in the course of this

7 fighting that young man was killed. His family was up there, and so he

8 himself asked to be allowed to go and inform them, and unfortunately he

9 got killed up there at Pirici. That was the only time when we actually

10 wanted for that information to be forwarded to others. All the other

11 information could be listened to by people from Gostilj, for example, who

12 were there on occasion. It is a village near Potocari and they were often

13 at Likari and they would spend the day there and go back home in the

14 evenings, and they knew of all that information. So there was no need for

15 us to tell them anything. At that time, everybody cared of them -- about

16 their own interests and about their own people.

17 Q. You've mentioned Mido Salihovic. Is -- Midhat Salihovic. Is that

18 person also named by the name -- known by the name as --

19 A. Midhat Salihovic.

20 Q. Is he also known as Mido, to your knowledge?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. So if I'm understanding you correct, you were able to not

23 transmit any of the information that you learned except for the one

24 unfortunate time with the lad Omerovic because there was another receiving

25 post or station near Potocari and Gostilj. So there were other receiving

1 stations so you didn't have to share information outside of Likari.

2 That's your testimony.

3 A. No, you misunderstood. What I said was this: Occasionally there

4 would be people from Gostilj at Likari. It is a place not far from

5 Likari. They would spend the day at Likari and go spend the night in

6 their own homes. So they were able to listen to that information at

7 Likari. And in case they were interested, they could make use of such

8 information. If they didn't make use of it, it was up to them really.

9 Q. So there was a casual exchange of this military information

10 between people in Likari and Gostilj. If they came, they might hear about

11 the formation, the Bratunac unit, or they might hear about Serb positions,

12 or they might hear about weaponry? Yes or no? I don't mean to cut you

13 off. I want to keep your answers short because we have a lot of material

14 to get through today.

15 A. Yes, I suppose you would have been interested had you been in the

16 area at the time.

17 Q. So did Mr. -- well, your leader, Osman Malagic, or Nasir

18 Sabanovic, do you know if they ever went to Srebrenica or ever spoke with

19 other leaders to convey the information that was being received from the

20 radio station in Likari?

21 A. I said that Osman Malagic was killed on the 12th of July. Up

22 until then he would only go to see his mother, take a shower, and

23 certainly he was not attending any meetings.

24 Q. Okay. Is that also the case for Nasir Sabanovic?

25 A. Nasir Sabanovic was wounded in an attack on the 2nd of July, very

1 soon after we arrived at Likari, and then he never showed up at Likari

2 ever again. What I mean is that he was never again seen at Likari after

3 the 2nd of July.

4 Q. Did any of the other men who were in your group stationed at

5 Likari to your knowledge go to Srebrenica or to other areas in order to

6 transmit this important information?

7 A. No, never.

8 Q. Did you ever tell civilians this information because it might

9 assist them as they were going to look for food?

10 A. Yes, on many occasions, especially when we had information about

11 roads being closed or important communication lines being cut off,

12 communication lines that would have been used by these people. When we

13 got information about ambushes or minefields we would always inform the

14 civilians.

15 Q. So did you inform the civilians in Likari or did you inform a

16 broader range of civilians, those in Potocari, those in Srebrenica, those

17 that might still be in the outlying villages?

18 A. All civilians looking for food in this area had to go through

19 Likari or just below Likari. And therefore, we did not go to Srebrenica

20 and tell them from house to house. But when they set out to look for

21 food, we would then tell them: You're likely to get killed, ambushes are

22 being prepared, mines have been laid, don't fool around. And it happened

23 quite often, sometimes if some of them stepped on landmines, we had to go

24 and provide assistance and get them out of there. I did tell you

25 yesterday that I myself was present on one such occasion and a man had to

1 have his leg amputated without any anaesthetic and -- by a device which is

2 not really appropriate and his name was Zajko Alic from Voljavica, and his

3 leg was amputated at Gostilj. And we were there because he asked us to

4 stay and give him some support and encourage him.

5 Q. So, Mr. Malagic, would you station -- or would the people from

6 your group of male fighters, be stationed on the road so they would be

7 able to inform civilians, if any civilians went by, about information come

8 in from the different front lines and in particular about what the

9 Serbs -- the armed Serbs were doing?

10 A. Yes, I've said that before.

11 Q. Now, after Osman Malagic was killed you had a subsequent leader.

12 To your knowledge did he --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did he ever go to Srebrenica or talk with other leaders about this

15 vital information that you were receiving from Likari?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He never attended any meetings. We

18 only went to Srebrenica when we wanted to take a shower or change of

19 clothing.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

21 MR. JONES: Yes. It's just a reference to vital information and

22 it's the second time my learned friend has referred to information,

23 important information. The witness has given evidence about information

24 which was of local interest and one or two examples of information which

25 might be of a broad interest. Without specifying what information Ms.

1 Sellers is talking about, I'm afraid you're going to get misleading

2 evidence.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Right.

4 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, certainly. I was trying to accelerate

5 the time. Let's go over what the information was because Mr. Jones thinks

6 it was more of local interest, and let's see if the terminology would be

7 correct.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones must have seen me looking at him because I

9 had exactly the same objection.

10 MS. SELLERS: Certainly.

11 Q. Yes, Mr. Malagic, I just want to remind you of some of the

12 testimony you said that concerned what was communicated to you. A

13 question had been asked: "Would you please comment on the contents of a

14 document, and it was concerning the Bjelovac company." And your answer

15 was: "The contents means a lot to us. While listening into their

16 communications we knew about this problem that they had. They were

17 frequently criticised by the garrison command because they were not

18 holding the bridge in Bjelovac as well as this bunker. That was important

19 to them and that was on the road to Kunjerac. Later they captured the

20 bunker that was important to our people who we going toward Bejaci [sic]

21 for the food because it was -- it was controlling this road ..."

22 Sorry. "It was controlling this road along with people -- along which

23 people had to pass."

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Let me also read some other information that was communicated to

1 you. The last information I read was on the transcript at page 76, and

2 this is transcript of the 26th of September. This information is on page

3 77 of the same transcript. There was a question by Madam Vidovic; it

4 concerned information concerning the Bratunac garrison from a document.

5 And then she concluded her question by saying: "I would like now to ask

6 you also about the communication that you monitored over the radio. In

7 October at this time, in mid-October, did you know of the existence of the

8 Podravanje [sic] Company, the Red Beret platoon, and the Sase

9 detachments?"

10 And you answered: "Yes, we knew about the formations that existed

11 at those locations."

12 "How did you know this?"

13 And you answered: "We knew about that based on our communications

14 and also during our recent activities -- reconnaissance activities, we

15 could see from neighbouring elevations where the mortars were located at

16 Sase, Andrici, and all of these other locations."

17 A. I never mentioned the Podravanje platoon. I am unfamiliar with

18 that.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I would imagine that this was your objection,

20 Ms. Vidovic?

21 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me?

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I was mentioning

23 Pobrdje and not Podravanje.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Pobrdje.

25 MS. SELLERS: Certainly. Thank you very much.

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1 Your Honour, I could go on with different examples of

2 communication, but I am referring in the main to communications received

3 from the Serb armed forces or, as the witness has characterised,

4 battalions. Now, the characterisation of that should be referred to is

5 local information or --

6 Q. I'm asking you: Wasn't that information that was important and

7 that was vital to the Muslims in Likari, in the -- on the front lines in

8 Srebrenica, Potocari? Could you answer that?

9 A. Yes. The information pertaining to the Bjelovac Battalion and

10 Sase were very important to us because those two battalions were directly

11 attacking us and they were within that zone encompassing Likari and they

12 could attack from the direction of Sase, Zalazje, as well as on the other

13 side from Pobrdje, Voljavica, and from the wider area of Bjelovac. Hence,

14 such information was of crucial importance for us and we also knew of some

15 other information that didn't pertain to us directly. We liked the fact

16 that we learned about it, but it didn't pertain to us directly. For

17 example, some units like the one in Podravanje you mentioned, that was

18 relatively distant and we were not directly interested. We were always

19 interested in what was happening in our immediate surroundings. And of

20 course at the locality of Pirici and Poloznik, which is close to Bjelovac.

21 We had thousands of our people there. Some of our fighters had their

22 parents together with other refugees there and there were thousands of

23 people there without protection from shells and the rest. That's what

24 impacted directly on our activities.

25 Q. Thank you very much?

1 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, can I proceed with that type of

2 characterisation on the evidence?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course you can.

4 MS. SELLERS: Okay. Fine. Thank you.

5 Q. Now, Mr. Malagic, in terms of communicating this vital

6 information, you've indicated that it was done orally to people who might

7 have been at Likari, to civilians who were passing. Isn't it possible

8 that this was also done at times on a more formal basis to other leaders

9 of Muslim fighters and armed groups?

10 A. If one of the leaders was at Likari, for example, came to our

11 assistance, they would ask if there was anything new. And of course we

12 would share that with them. I don't remember exactly, but perhaps they

13 would come and sit by the radio device to listen to the conversations. I

14 know of that one at Likari. I don't think there was any other radio

15 device, but it was always interesting for everyone if you knew somebody's

16 voice you could sort of think about that person, think about where they

17 might be deployed. And at Likari, certain groups of people did come to

18 our aid and then they would ask us as to whether there was anything new

19 concerning the overall situation, and maybe they would sit next to the

20 device and listen. That was interesting. Why wouldn't they? Everyone

21 would be interested.

22 Q. Well, are you aware of any courier service that might have existed

23 between places such as Likari, Potocari, Srebrenica, people actually

24 carrying messages or information concerning military or civilian? Are you

25 aware of that? And please keep your answer to yes, you're aware, or no,

1 now you're not aware.

2 A. No. I know that no such thing existed. I would have known for

3 sure had it been in existence.

4 Q. All right. Thank you?

5 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I've been informed that we're able to

6 go to the videos. If you just allow me one second with the case manager.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

8 [Prosecution counsel confer]

9 [Videotape played]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I see that it's running but there is no sound.

11 [Videotape played]

12 "INTERPRETER: At that moment a courier came to the house where my

13 parents were. I was there with 15 of my fighters, who were there waiting

14 for me. The courier came into the house and told me, he said, Naser,

15 commander, I come from Ramiz and he does -- with a message that the

16 Chetniks are preparing an offensive from the direction of Bratunac towards

17 Potocari. The moment that he said that, firing broke out from infantry

18 weapons. I didn't know what was happening, but we all immediately -- each

19 man took his own weapon, and we ran from Gornji Potocari towards Donja

20 Potocari. And then from Donja Potocari you need to climb up to the point

21 of Likari, because this -- this point was the most important to us."

22 MS. SELLERS:

23 Q. Mr. Malagic, after watching this video, do you understand that

24 there might have been couriers that you had no knowledge of that were

25 transmitting information?

1 A. I heard very distinctly everything Mr. Oric said. He said: Ramiz

2 sent me, Ramiz sent the courier. Ramiz at that time was not at Likari.

3 Ramiz could have sent a courier from Srebrenica to warn him of the attack,

4 so that needs to be clarified. Ramiz -- there was no Ramiz at Likari and

5 no courier was sent. If you have Ramiz Becirevic in mind, he was in

6 Srebrenica. He may have sent a courier from Srebrenica because they heard

7 some shooting at Likari. But from Likari, never a single courier left. I

8 understood well, I guess, that he said Ramiz sent a courier.

9 Q. Yes, Mr. Malagic, you did understand well and that's exactly what

10 I'm saying, that there were courier systems. I'm not saying one came from

11 Likari; I'm saying that there were couriers -- courier systems to transmit

12 information at that time just as you have understood. So I believe that

13 we are both understanding the video in the same way. Correct?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Don't ask me --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Wait one moment.

17 MR. JONES: My learned friend is now referring to courier systems.

18 We've had reference to a single courier and so certainly --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

20 MR. JONES: -- on the basis --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated].

22 I apologise to you. Yes, I agree with you, although there is a

23 question earlier on which indicated or hinted to the witness that there

24 was a sort of a system in place, one or more couriers, but --

25 MR. JONES: Yes, but he didn't accept it and in the video --

1 JUDGE AGIUS: -- accept it, so I would restrict it to this

2 particular instance that he's told us about, that he's acknowledged.

3 MS. SELLERS: Certainly, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

5 MS. SELLERS: Can I just check and see whether he's answered the

6 question?

7 Q. Mr. Malagic, I did ask you, as a matter of fact, that what you are

8 saying is that courier to transmit information from that time did exist as

9 you've understood it --

10 A. I didn't say that.

11 Q. I just wanted to rephrase what you had said earlier. So do you,

12 by looking at this video, accept that a courier from Ramiz Becirevic did

13 contact Mr. Oric concerning the events at Likari? Can -- did you

14 understand that from this video?

15 A. I never said that at Likari there was any courier, at least where

16 I was at Likari.

17 Q. And I never -- I don't believe the video says that either. But

18 you agree that the video said that there was a courier that came to

19 Mr. Oric. It didn't say it came from Likari.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's -- because I want to make sure that the

21 witness is not confused. Your question was clear, not this previous

22 question. However, I think that it may have not been understood well

23 by -- by the witness. Because while you were asking the witness to

24 confirm that this is what is stated in the video, he answered -- or then

25 you asked him: "I just wanted to rephrase what you said earlier. So do

1 you, by looking at this video, accept that a courier from Ramiz Becirevic

2 did contact."

3 I mean, that's different. Because your question precise to -- was

4 not whether he accepts, because to accept it, it means that he knew it

5 personally, that --

6 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I prefer the original question.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. So I would rephrase it. I think he's

8 followed the exchange now between us, and he can then answer --

9 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, could you please just restate that

10 question? We don't have the questions that go back up that far, and

11 that's purely what I want Mr. Malagic to answer.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: The question that was put to you and which you were

13 asked to agree with was put to you that: What is stated in the video

14 recording is that a courier was sent from Ramiz Becirevic to Naser Oric.

15 Do you accept that that is what is stated in the video?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, on the video.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

18 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Then from the factual point of view, I mean I'm not

20 getting involved in that myself. If you want to get involved, please do,

21 but ...

22 MS. SELLERS:

23 Q. Mr. Malagic, my next question is: Do you know whether there were

24 any courier systems operating in Potocari or Srebrenica or in the area

25 during this time period when you were gathering information?

1 A. No, there was no system that was worked out to link up those

2 groups to transfer information. For example, in this situation that we

3 may have sent a courier to Ramiz and Ramiz to Naser, that was not so for

4 sure. Perhaps Ramiz heard shooting at Likari and then sent someone to

5 Naser at Potocari to tell them to go and assist those people there. That

6 is a possibility, but it's not a worked out system of couriers in that

7 sense.

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Malagic. Now, I want to refer you back also to

9 your testimony because on the 27th of September, day two, Madam Vidovic

10 asked you: "Could you tell us whether" -- and I'm reading from page 6 of

11 that transcript. "Could you tell us whether you had any information from

12 the scouts from Piricko Brdo regarding the area that they were able to

13 see?"

14 And, Mr. Malagic, you answered: "Yes, they frequently reported

15 back to us. Midhat Salihovic would report back to us that they couldn't

16 stand the pressure there anymore from the artillery, from the direction of

17 Bjelovac, Kunjerac, Sikirici, and that it was terrible."

18 Now, I would like to ask you, this frequent reporting back from

19 scouts, how did you receive that information, in what manner?

20 A. We come from the same area, Voljavica and Biljaca are perhaps 2 to

21 3 kilometres away. There was a lot of our people in Pirici, and those

22 people were moving about. If they couldn't use Biljaca to -- as a route,

23 then they went through Likari. So they moved daily. Sometimes we saw

24 Midhat Salihovic in Srebrenica when we went to take a shower and he would

25 come into town to see his parents. And then we would talk about the

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1 events at Pirici and we would tell him what was happening at Likari and we

2 would also learn as to whether someone was killed or not. People were

3 moving about daily in their search of food. You could see columns of

4 people. It was a long way, but people did go by foot. We never received

5 any reports but we simply received information. People would tell us

6 because they moved about, they communicated. On occasion one of our

7 people would go up to Pirici to see his parents who were there with the

8 other refugees. And then up there they would learn something new.

9 Q. Thank you. You answered Madam Vidovic's question because she

10 asked you specifically: "Did you have any information from the scouts?"

11 Could you tell us, who were the scouts? Because you said: "They

12 frequently reported back to us." And you gave as an example Midhat

13 Salihovic, Mido, would report back to you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before he answers.

15 Ms. Vidovic, going back to that page from the transcript to which

16 Ms. Sellers referred to earlier, we heard the word "scout," "scouts"

17 there. When you were putting the questions to your witness, what word did

18 you use in your own language?

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't remember having

20 used a word "scout." I may have said "an observer." I never used the

21 word "scout" but we can go back to the video recording. An observer --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... so much

23 experience here. This is what I suspect, that --

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] An observer, somebody who observed

25 it, in that sense of the word. Or someone who was a part of

1 reconnaissance, but I can't be sure at this moment. We will check --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I may offer some clarification.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Malagic.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I also found myself in that

5 role, too. You go to an elevation point and you observe. You can call

6 that person a scout, an observer, whatever. For example, Zajko would send

7 two or three of us to see what was happening. So I guess this is just a

8 play of words. I don't think it's so important.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you've missed the point that I wanted to

10 make. I wanted to make sure that the word "scouts" now is being

11 interpreted to the witness with the same word that Ms. Vidovic used when

12 it was translated as "scouts" to us. This is what I want to make sure.

13 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Because if the word "scouts" appeared in the

15 transcripts in relation to -- to a descriptive word that she used I want

16 to make sure the same word is being used now.

17 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know because I was following the transcript

19 in English, of course, not in B/C/S.

20 MS. SELLERS: So was I.

21 Q. Mr. Malagic, at times you played the role of the observer/scout.

22 Sometimes you're a commander. Zajko would send you and several others to

23 observe and bring back that information. That's what you've just

24 testified to. How often did you play that role?

25 A. Commander Zajko is a somewhat comprehensive term. In order to be

1 a commander you needed to have a unit or people to command over.

2 Q. I understand that. We're going to get to this terminology. Could

3 you answer my question: How many times did you play the role? How many

4 times did Commander Zajko send you out to be the observer, you and several

5 other people -- a few other people you had mentioned?

6 A. The leader, Zajko, perhaps sent me once a week, not that often.

7 Q. And would he also send other people from your group out to observe

8 other than you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And did people from other groups such as Miro Salihovic observe

11 and exchange information with you and your groups?

12 A. In their part of Pirici and Poloznik, they observed from there.

13 And I told you how we went about exchanging information. We used the

14 people who were moving about.

15 Q. Thank you. I'd like to go to your testimony, it is again from day

16 two. On page 14 when you were asked the question: "As regards this tank,

17 did you mention artillery weapon in Bjelovac and Sase?"

18 Now, within that answer, you answered "yes" --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And within that answer, it's a lengthy answer, I want to go midway

21 down, you state: "And it was facing Likari in the Sase area and on

22 Tablja," there is a word missing after that. "And our men in Pirici told

23 us that they had seen a Howitzer in Jovanovici."

24 Now, how did "our men" in Pirici inform you of this?

25 A. I explained already. We used the people, the civilians, when they

1 went searching for food. That's how we communicated. Or when we ran into

2 someone in Srebrenica, when we went there to take a shower, and then we

3 would exchange the information we had. There was no other type of system.

4 We didn't have any radio devices, we didn't have the courier service that

5 would link various areas. That was too risky and too distant. So the

6 only way was to meet -- meet anyone and discuss information with them.

7 You mentioned the Howitzer turned towards Tablja. I said from the

8 direction of Tablja towards -- you said towards Sase, but not towards --

9 but from Sase towards Likari. So I guess it was misinterpreted.

10 Q. So I'm to conclude that this exchange of information concerning

11 Howitzers was really done on a fairly casual basis, civilians that would

12 go by or people that you might meet in town as opposed to any type of

13 regulated or structured basis. That would be your testimony, right,

14 Mr. Malagic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you?

17 A. It was an informal way but the people that were killed by such

18 artillery pieces died very literally and formally so.

19 Q. Yes. I'm going to move to just a slightly different area, and

20 that is back to the original videos that I wanted to show. And it will be

21 a series of three short videos that I would ask you to look at your screen

22 and hopefully we have sound and then just ask you a couple questions

23 concerning them.

24 [Videotape played]

25 "INTERPRETER: So after -- after the shelling and the shooting

1 started and people began to withdraw up into the mountains and into the

2 nearby hamlets. These were underneath positions that the Serbs from

3 Gniona were holding high on the mountain. Seeing the situation, that they

4 were encircling us and that they would capture us all alive, we decided to

5 attack Likari so that -- to drive the Chetniks away from there, so that

6 people would be able to return to their houses and return to where they'd

7 been."

8 [Videotape played]

9 "INTERPRETER: The only reason was that -- the main reason was that

10 because of this -- the fighting -- the military action that was going on,

11 they were always dead and got killed -- dead and captured on both sides.

12 Just to give you an example, I just made some notice now when I was coming

13 into the building. I forgot to say when I was talking about the battle,

14 when we took Likari and Zalazje the first time, I had -- I had five of my

15 soldiers -- five of my fighters were killed during that attack. They were

16 captured by the Chetniks and then immediately killed."

17 [Videotape played]

18 "INTERPRETER: Everybody was shooting. I don't know where they

19 were shooting or what they were shooting at, but basically we all just

20 went together up into the trench. The moment when Sead jumped into the

21 trench, he shot at a Chetnik and the Chetnik shot at him, and they were

22 both killed at that place. So the Chetnik trenches were not all connected

23 with communication trenches, so they were isolated -- isolated points.

24 Probably they didn't have the intention of staying there for very long, so

25 these were just temporary. And then we all jumped in and then people set

1 off in the two directions, some towards Caus and some towards Likari. We

2 were shouting all kinds of things: Alahu-Akhbar, just to frighten the

3 Chetniks because we knew they were afraid of the Mujahedin. And we

4 succeeded in taking Caus, Pous, Likari, and about halfway through Zalazje.

5 We captured lots of weaponry, including an -- including an M-53."

6 MS. SELLERS:

7 Q. Mr. Malagic, you just heard Naser Oric talk about some of the

8 fighting that went on in Likari. Now, is that consistent with what you

9 witnessed and saw when you were fighting in Likari and with what you had

10 heard about in terms of the fighting in Likari before you came?

11 A. This conversation that Naser Oric was involved in as far, as I can

12 tell, referred to the liberation of Likari. And we were still at Poloznik

13 when they were liberating Likari, so I'm unable to tell you anything

14 whatsoever about this particular fighting because I wasn't there. I don't

15 know what went on as they were trying to free Likari. We got to Likari

16 when it had already been liberated. This was in the beginning of the war

17 when Serbs had torched Likari and I think they held three women captive up

18 there. And then in order to avoid a siege of Potocari, they freed Likari,

19 but I wasn't there.

20 Q. But is this consistent with what you've heard about what happened

21 in Likari before you came?

22 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you. We knew nothing about that

23 fighting. We knew that this weapon, 53-calibre weapon that the Serbs had

24 in their trenches had been captured, but we didn't know any other details

25 as to how, in what way, who exactly was killed, or anything like that.

1 Q. You had heard that Naser Oric had fought in Likari on several

2 occasions prior to you coming to Likari?

3 A. I've -- quite frankly I didn't have that information either. We

4 knew that Likari had been freed but who exactly participated with what

5 group and who exactly was killed, we knew nothing about that.

6 Q. You didn't know that Naser Oric had fought in Likari before you

7 came?

8 A. [No interpretation]

9 MS. SELLERS: I would like to show the witness now Prosecution

10 Exhibit P100.

11 MR. JONES: I see the answer wasn't recorded. He said "no,

12 absolute no."

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you for pointing that out, Mr. Jones.

14 Yes, for the record, I heard the witness pronounce those words, too. So

15 his answer was"no."

16 MS. SELLERS: It's in Sanctions, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. Malagic, I would just ask you to read over this document. As

18 you can see it's a document that comes from the Srebrenica TO, Territorial

19 Defence, Crisis Staff. The date is the 3rd of July, 1992. It was stamped

20 by the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Ministry of Defence, BH army,

21 confidential. The date was the 3rd of July, 1992. It's a report of

22 Srebrenica to the staff. And the first paragraph says: "The most violent

23 attacks so far against positions held by the forces of the Srebrenica TO

24 took place in the early morning hours on the 2nd of July, 1992, by the SDS

25 extremists and forces from Serbia on features Caus, Likari, and Zanik."

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1 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me, Your Honours, just for the record I had

2 been informed prior to coming into court today that the word "koca"

3 [phoen] has been translated as "features" and that a better translation

4 would be "elevations." So where the word features appears, that

5 elevations --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: The thing is I'm looking at the document on Sanction

7 here and I want to make sure that this is the document that you are

8 reading from because I can't -- I can't find in it what you read.

9 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I'm checking that with our case

10 manager. There are two documents that are similar.

11 May I ask with the assistance of the usher to place this on the

12 ELMO?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it will be more practical.

14 This is different, definitely. It's not the same document we had

15 before.

16 MS. SELLERS: Might I ask that it just be positioned a bit so

17 that --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Usher, please, if you could move it further

19 down so that we can -- or further up. Yes, that's perfect. Thank you.

20 MS. SELLERS:

21 Q. Mr. Malagic, my question to you is that you were present on July

22 2nd at the fighting in Likari. That's been your testimony. And would you

23 agree with this document that there was violent -- the most violent attack

24 so far against positions included those on the elevations of Likari?

25 A. Yes. There was a powerful attack on Likari on that day as far as

1 I know, but I would tend to disagree with this document for a number of

2 reasons, in fact.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MS. SELLERS: Could you remove the document from the witness now.

5 Oh, I'm --

6 Q. Mr. Malagic, I will be able to get back to you later. I just

7 wanted to ask you that one question and to move along, and then you'll be

8 able, if necessary, to give any commentary. Okay?

9 MS. SELLERS: I would now like to show Mr. Malagic Prosecution

10 Exhibit 116. Your Honour, I was told this was in Sanctions but we're just

11 having a -- here it is.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I can see it now, but I -- of course, I don't see

13 the document number. The document that I am seeing is dated 14th July,

14 Ms. Sellers.

15 MS. SELLERS: Yes, it is, Your Honour. It's the same document.

16 This is a document, as Your Honour has stated dated the 14th of July,

17 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Municipal Staff of the Srebrenica

18 armed forces, and it's to the Main Staff of the BH armed forces in

19 Sarajevo and to the district staff of the BH armed forces in Tuzla.

20 Q. Now, Mr. Malagic, if you read through this document it says on the

21 third paragraph down -- no, the fourth paragraph, excuse me. "It is very

22 important to mention that in addition to casualties on the aggressor's

23 side they also suffered material losses, two armoured personnel carriers

24 and an M-84 tank were destroyed. Another tank was completely disabled

25 with a direct hit from our artillery.

1 "A three-barrel PAT was also destroyed. A large quantity of

2 ammunition was seized next to it and a large quantity of infantry weapons

3 was seized: 276 pieces and a significant quantity of ammunition. Four

4 PAMs, anti-aircraft machine-guns, and about 3.000 rounds of ammunition for

5 it were also seized. In addition, seven heavy machine-guns and a large

6 quantity of ammunition were also seized."

7 Now, on your plateau in Likari, did you receive information about

8 this? Yes or no.

9 A. As far as I can see there is a reference to the Zalazje elevation

10 about a kilometre away from Likari. We would have to see and hear it. I

11 apologise. This is addressed to the Chief of Staff of the armed forces in

12 Sarajevo and in Tuzla and apparently this is coming from Srebrenica. Is

13 that it?

14 Q. Yes. And I would just draw your attention to -- it talks about

15 several operations --

16 A. I would just like to know by what route this might have been

17 delivered to Sarajevo or Tuzla. How could this be possible? After

18 demilitarisation the international organisations were present in

19 Srebrenica. They know that not even a pigeon could have done it, and I

20 really would like to know in what way this document would have reached

21 Tuzla. This is a reference to these quantities of artillery and arms, and

22 in a previous document that you showed me there was this reference to the

23 fact that on the 2nd of July the Territorial Defence was attacked at

24 Likari. And there was Osman Malagic's and another group there. There was

25 no Territorial Defence from Srebrenica at Likari; there were just these

1 two groups.

2 Q. Mr. Malagic, irrespective of the manner in which the document

3 reached the sender, my question to you was: Were you aware of these

4 events?

5 A. No, never.

6 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.

7 MS. SELLERS: We can remove the document from the witness.

8 I would now like to ask the witness to have P90, please. And on

9 P90 we're going to be looking at the English, page 84, and page 147 in

10 B/C/S.

11 Q. Now, Mr. Malagic, I just want to bring your attention to a small

12 portion of this document. If you see a paragraph that begins: "Another

13 arm of the resistance in the Bratunac municipality." If you have found

14 that location then we can proceed.

15 A. If it is page 147 in the Bosniak version, I can see it.

16 Q. Thank you. I would like to read into the record just a portion of

17 that paragraph. It says: "Another arm of the resistance in the Bratunac

18 municipality was established in the village of Poloznik, independently of

19 the resistance in Konjevic Polje. The Bratunac municipality fell on 17

20 April but two volunteer groups refusing to surrender their arms formed two

21 platoons: One in Voljavica led by Osman Malagic and the other in Biljaca

22 led by Sadik Zukic."

23 Now, my question to you is that you have testified that Osman

24 Malagic was your leader and he came from Voljavica. Correct? And you've

25 also testified that the group led by Osman Malagic joined up with the

1 group of Sadik Zukic when you went to Poloznik. Correct?

2 A. No, that's not what I said. I said that when we were driven out

3 of Voljavica we met with a group of people from Biljaca in Poloznik and

4 they went to a hill called Piricko Brdo and we stayed in Poloznik. And

5 here it says we didn't relinquish the arms. You should ask the Serbs.

6 They are going to tell you and they certainly have the documents to

7 support it, that in Voljavica the arms had been relinquished. What it

8 says here, "the group of young men who did not relinquish their arms."

9 But there is a reference in the documents. I myself relinquished my own

10 rifle and I got it and a reserve officer, and they certainly have this

11 data. So this is incorrect.

12 And that we met in Voljavica, I said that when our people were

13 driven out from those villages, Poloznik and Pirici, we gathered up there

14 to protect those people. I don't know who drafted this document.

15 Somebody who probably wanted to boast a little bit, but I don't know.

16 Q. You don't know who the author of this is?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Okay. Is it correct that Osman Malagic was one of the leaders and

19 that Sadik Zukic was one of the leaders, that you came from Voljavica,

20 that the other group came from Biljaca, and that you joined together?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MS. SELLERS: You can remove the document from the witness.

24 Your Honour, just very briefly before the next break I would like

25 to ask the witness one or two questions and show another video, and I

1 think that will just take us up to 10.30.

2 Q. Mr. Malagic, now you're a professional soldier. You're a member

3 of the army.

4 A. [No interpretation]

5 Q. And as a member -- yes. As a member of the army, you are quite

6 familiar with proper army terminology in terms of platoons, battalions,

7 companies, brigades.

8 A. [No interpretation]

9 Q. And I would like to ask you that it might seem rather inaccurate

10 if not bizarre to be referring to configurations or groups of fighting men

11 as platoons, brigades, units, that are not technically that under current

12 military terminology. Would you agree?

13 A. At that stage, it wasn't possible to have any military formations.

14 Q. Excuse me. My question was: Would you agree that it does seem

15 maybe inaccurate or bizarre to refer to groups used in that --

16 A. Could you repeat the question, please.

17 Q. I would like to ask you whether it might seem inaccurate, if not

18 bizarre, to be referring to configurations or groups of fighting men as

19 platoons, brigades, units, that were not technically that, those terms,

20 under what would be current military terminology. Wouldn't you agree that

21 it would seem inaccurate, if not bizarre?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: You mean in the circumstances prevailing at the

23 time?

24 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I'm trying to see whether from his

25 current military formation that he would think that referring to them with

1 the inaccuracies are, and then I was going to ask him about in terms of

2 1992.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Go ahead.

4 Yes, Mr. Jones.

5 MR. JONES: I'm not surprised if the witness has difficulty with

6 that question there.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not surprised either.

8 MR. JONES: Because on the one hand it's something which is

9 tautological. It's obviously inaccurate. It describes something in terms

10 which it's not. That's obviously inaccurate. So obviously the -- my

11 learned friend is going to get a yes to that answer. But then she keeps

12 inserting "if not bizarre," so then the witness is going to seem to be

13 accepting that something is bizarre which entails a whole other set of

14 circumstances. So if she could ask a simple question.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you ought to put the second question that

16 you had in mind of putting first and then you ask the first question

17 after. And I think it will be much easier for him to answer it at that

18 point.

19 MS. SELLERS: Certainly, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. Malagic, did it seem inaccurate in 1992 to be referring to the

21 configuration or group of fighters as platoons, brigades, battalions, to

22 you?

23 A. Such military formations were not mentioned at the time. Those

24 groups were defined according to their leaders' names or the places where

25 they came from. People from Potocari, from Suceska, Naser's people,

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1 Osman's people, within the framework of the existing villages, that's how

2 they got their names. There were no military formations. I suppose you

3 must be familiar with military terminology. You know what a company is.

4 You would have to have over a hundred armed men and you would have at

5 least three platoons and commanders and everything. At that time we did

6 not have the necessary preconditions. It might have existed -- it could

7 have existed in the areas of Tuzla, Sarajevo, Zenica, and so forth. But

8 in that particular area there was just no possibility for such a thing and

9 there was no need for it either.

10 Q. So, Mr. Malagic, would that seem inaccurate to you to refer to

11 those groups or configurations by that military terminology?

12 A. Well, it's incorrect to talk about companies, battalions,

13 brigades, what have you.

14 Q. But isn't it also possible -- you allow for the possibility that,

15 even with such inaccuracies, people did refer to groups, units, platoons,

16 commanders, and such military terminology in 1992 during that time period?

17 A. Up until the demilitarisation of Srebrenica, not a single military

18 formation had ever been mentioned. And I'm talking in terms of military

19 terminology. There were no references to platoons, companies, battalions,

20 brigades, nothing at all. In order to have such military formations, you

21 would have to have a battalion command, logistical support. If someone

22 were a member of such a military formation, they would ask for uniforms,

23 weapons, food. Those were volunteers, little groups formed by volunteers.

24 I could have left Likari at any point. I just could have said, Okay, my

25 parents are starving, I'm off to look for food, and nobody would have

1 stopped me.

2 Q. Mr. Malagic, you heard on the videotape that Naser Oric was

3 referred to as "commander," yes or no?

4 A. No.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we stop here --

6 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, we can take the break.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: -- And we will run the video after the break.

8 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: We will have a 25-minute break starting from now.

10 --- Recess taken at 10:30 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 11:03 a.m.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers, you may proceed.

14 MS. SELLERS:

15 Q. Yes, Mr. Malagic, this is going to be our last period of

16 questioning and then I'm sure Madam Vidovic and Your Honours will have

17 some questions for you. So I'd like to move effectively, efficiently,

18 thoroughly, but as quickly as possible. Okay. Now, the last question I

19 asked you was: Do you remember on a previous videotape that I showed you

20 this morning that Naser Oric referred to himself, saying that Becir --

21 Ramiz Becirevic had referred to him as commander. Do you remember that on

22 the videotape? If I can help you remember, you've been questioned whether

23 he should be commander. Do you remember that?

24 A. Me or Naser?

25 Q. I can only speak directly to you, sir, to I'm asking you the

1 question. Do you remember that Naser Oric was referred to as commander on

2 that videotape? Let me just say it simply.

3 A. If we are talking about the period prior to the demilitarisation,

4 there was no commander. Had I had a commander then, I would have gone to

5 see him and I would have told him, we need boots, we need food. But

6 otherwise we would start eating each other at Likari because in the --

7 during the Leningrad siege cannibalism happened so I believed that

8 something similar would have happened. And I would have asked from the

9 commander to provide, be it Naser or someone else. Nobody could be

10 commander of all those groups at that time. We were very dispersed and no

11 one could link those groups up.

12 Q. Okay. Let me show you the next videotape, and that's going to be

13 Prosecution Exhibit P433.

14 [Videotape played]

15 MS. SELLERS: I would just like to say that there are transcripts

16 to pass up from the videotape.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Do they tally with what we were reading --

18 MS. SELLERS: Yes --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Underneath the --

20 MS. SELLERS: Yes, they do, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

22 MS. SELLERS: Now --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Because I always want to make sure that the

24 translations are acceptable to both parties.

25 MR. JONES: We'll have to check the translation. I heard Boci

1 [phoen] so --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: That's why I'm saying in case you have difficulties

3 or any problems with the translations, please speak out as early as

4 possible so as to avoid questions based on expressions which may not be

5 acceptable to you.

6 MR. JONES: Well, I might indicate straight away that we heard

7 Boci, which we always translate as "fighters," translated as "soldiers."

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. Okay.

9 MS. SELLERS:

10 Q. Mr. Malagic, on the video that you just saw did you recognise

11 anyone on that video?

12 A. I recognised the journalist. He is from Glogova, and I know who

13 Ahmo was. Not personally but I knew what he looked like; that's the

14 leader.

15 Q. Is that Ahmo Tihic?

16 A. Yes, Ahmo Tihic.

17 Q. And do you agree that on that video that Ahmo Tihic responded to

18 the word "commander"?

19 A. That's what I wanted to explain. We have different terminology in

20 each of the video clips. This one runs against the previous one. Here

21 Ahmo Tihic is called commander; therefore, Naser couldn't have been. As

22 far as I know Ahmo was the leader of the Biljeg group and he was called

23 commander here. So each one of your documents runs contrary to the

24 previous one.

25 Q. And do you also recognise that the word "combatant" -- when

1 referring to Ahmo Tihic's group of men, that he used the word combatant?

2 A. Yes, that's nothing new, a combatant, a fighter defending his

3 village.

4 Q. And --

5 A. And you can see what was there -- what their equipment was like.

6 Q. Yes. And do you also recognise that one man was asked: "Were you

7 the leader of a platoon?" And he said: "Yes."

8 A. I heard that. I heard him say "yes."

9 Q. So would you at least agree that people did use military

10 terminology, although from your point of view the use of that terminology

11 in 1992 might have been inaccurate?

12 A. The terminology is absolutely incorrect. They may have split in

13 several groups using such terminology so that Ahmo could reach each of the

14 soldiers. But he delegated some of the responsibilities.

15 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like to remind you that you testified that in

16 terms of the Serb army that it evolved from a TO structure, then to an

17 army structure, that that is how it grew. Do you remember that testimony?

18 And you have to say yes or no to the microphone, sir.

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I would now like to show Mr. Malagic a

21 subsequent videotape. If you could just bear with me one second.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I understand these problems, Ms. Sellers.

23 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, this is P441.

24 [Videotape played]

25 MS. SELLERS: Thank you.

1 Q. Mr. Malagic, after reviewing this video, do you allow for the

2 possibility that there were commanders of self-organised groups and an

3 overall command of the commanders and the self-organised groups, as Naser

4 Oric said at the second anniversary of the formation of the Srebrenica TO?

5 A. I will offer a brief explanation.

6 Q. Well, could you please first just answer my question: Do you

7 allow for that possibility? And then certainly if you --

8 A. No, there was no such a possibility.

9 Q. Okay, fine.

10 A. Could I comment now?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go on.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This recording was created after the

13 demilitarisation of Srebrenica; isn't that so? At that time the Tuzla

14 command wanted to make known that there were no groups fighting there.

15 They wanted to establish some sort of position with our command in

16 Sarajevo. So after the demilitarisation things had to be put on paper,

17 names of people as well, so that after the war people could exercise some

18 of their rights. That was for that reason, to show that we were not as

19 Indian tribes, to say that this or that group had this or that leader, but

20 to show that there was some sort of unification so that that could be sent

21 to the Tuzla command, otherwise it would look like Tuzla fought for

22 itself. But this was to show that Srebrenica also played its role in the

23 liberation war. So it had to be put on paper, signed, and archived.

24 Had we shown them that at that time we only had group leaders,

25 they would have asked us, What were you doing then? You were illiterate,

1 you were incompetent, you didn't organise the resistance movement, but

2 rather you allowed the Serbs to slaughter you. So after the

3 demilitarisation, that should have been shown to Tuzla and Sarajevo, and

4 that's when the lists were made on the military formations. But until

5 then, there were no military formations commanded by a single person and I

6 explained why and I explained what is needed for a commander to have

7 command over his units.

8 Q. So, Mr. Malagic, according to you, all of the formations that

9 Mr. Oric is talking about were purely for administrative purposes?

10 A. Those formations were created after the demilitarisation.

11 Ms. Vidovic showed me some documents where one could read, for example,

12 the Independent Voljavica Battalion, then another document --

13 Q. Excuse me -- pardon me. Could you answer my question. I

14 understand that. All of this was purely for administrative purposes, yes

15 or no, that's the essence of what I believe you're saying?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Fine.

18 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I would like to move to what will be

19 my final area of questioning.

20 Q. So I would like to ask the witness now to turn his attention to

21 some of the testimony that you have given this Trial Chamber concerning

22 your participation in Bjelovac. Now, you testified that you went to

23 Bjelovac after your leader had spoken to the leader, Sesmo, and you

24 volunteered -- Huso says, when you volunteered to go there because he --

25 Husic Sesmo had assisted your family at one time. Do you agree with that,

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1 Mr. Malagic?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment because I -- again, I usually while

3 watching the witness I get some feelers.

4 Do you want us to read to you precisely the part of your testimony

5 that Madam Sellers is referring you to?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.

8 Yes, Ms. Vidovic?

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if the Prosecutor may

10 clarify as to the name. It was -- we were not able to understand.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I heard a name, but --

12 MS. SELLERS: I can clarify, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please. Sesmo, something like this.

14 MS. SELLERS: The name is Sesmo Husic, and as a matter of fact I

15 can just read your answer after --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Semso Husic.

17 MS. SELLERS: Semso Husic, right.

18 Q. Madam Vidovic had asked you the question concerning Mr.

19 Alic: "Did he when he said you had to do something, did he contact anyone

20 else and was any help promised?"

21 And Mr. Malagic answered -- and I'm reading from the transcript

22 now of the 27th of September, I'm at page 20. And Mr. Malagic answered:"

23 Yes. He said that other people had promised to help us return to our

24 villages because people saw what kind of situation we were in."

25 And the following question was: "Did he mention someone

1 specifically?"

2 And Mr. Malagic said: "Yes. He mentioned that he had met Semso

3 Husic, a leader of the group of fighters in Poloznik. He was a man held

4 in high regard because he had helped us while we were stationed in

5 Poloznik." So --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And then you testified that Semso asked your commander, Zajko, to

8 send an anti-tank weapon and that since you had had experience or knew how

9 to use anti-armour weapons, you volunteered to go. That's your testimony,

10 right, Mr. Malagic? You have to say "yes" into the microphone.

11 A. Yes, but eye say Zajko was a commander. I said a leader.

12 Commander is much more comprehensive. You should know that, I believe.

13 Q. I don't want to misuse your terminology. Okay. Now, you were --

14 you went to -- you went voluntarily with the accord of your leader to

15 Semso and then when you arrived - and now I'm reading from page 21 of the

16 transcript. "In the morning" -- this is your answer. "In the morning

17 very early on the 14th of December, Semso gave us three armed men as

18 escorts and he sent us to Piricko Brdo area, the hill."

19 Now, you went with Suso Huso -- could you pronounce the name,

20 Susic, Huso. Who is it who accompanied you to Piricko Brdo?

21 A. Huso Cvrk, that's what I said.

22 Q. And there when you arrived at Piricko Brdo, you testified that we,

23 meaning Mr. Cvrk and you and the three armed men, improvised an ambush.

24 Is that correct? You have to speak into the microphone.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Now, to your knowledge, was the ambush in Piricko Brdo or your

2 military actions in Piricko Brdo known -- well-known to members of a

3 larger military command, a larger command structure?

4 A. No.

5 Q. So the only people who knew what you were doing was Semso Husic

6 and your own leader, Mr. Zajko. That would be your testimony; right?

7 A. No. I didn't know as to whether other people knew. I don't know

8 that, if anyone else knew. Whether Zajko or Semso told anyone, I don't

9 know.

10 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would like Mr. Malagic to be shown

11 Prosecution Exhibit 84. I'll indicate the page in one minute, please.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

13 MS. SELLERS: I'll indicate the page in one second, please. In

14 the English it is page 36. The ERN number in the B/C/S is 03090740.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you are saying them --

16 MS. SELLERS: They are double ERNs.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: -- the other way around.

18 MS. SELLERS: I'm sorry.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: The ERN you have just mentioned is the English one.

20 The corresponding one in B/C/S is 02115090, if I am right.

21 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I think it's 509 -- 89, it starts on

22 the previous page. You're right.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Then it has to be the previous page unless you are

24 referring to the last paragraph.

25 MS. SELLERS: I am referring to the last paragraph.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Then it has to be again page 36. But the witness

2 has to be referred to 02115089, and it's the last paragraph on that page.

3 It should be at least anyway, because I'm not seeing it.

4 MS. SELLERS: Might I at this time take advantage of giving the

5 usher the transcripts from the previous exhibit that we had referred to.

6 Q. Mr. Malagic, do you see where it's listed under section Roman

7 numeral II, a paragraph that starts: "It was decided to carry out

8 additional reconnaissance on 9 December 1992"?

9 A. I can see it but this handwriting is a bit illegible.

10 Q. Then I'm going to read out that paragraph to you. If there's any

11 corrections, certainly. It says: "It was decided to carry out additional

12 reconnaissance on 9 December 1992 for the continuation of combat

13 activities. On 10 December 1992 at 1120 hours, a staff meeting will be

14 held at which a final decision will be taken. The number of participating

15 units and soldiers will be increased by attaching the Kragljivoda unit

16 which will reconnoitre the Piricko Brdo-Sikiric area. The Biljeg

17 Battalion will join the Voljavica unit and reconnoitre the ambush at

18 Voljavica. Reconnaissance and preparation for the newly discovered trench

19 will be carried out by the Stari Grad unit."

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm going to read this

22 out, if the witness can follow, because this translation is incorrect

23 because the grammar is incorrect and the term "unit" is being used where

24 it does not exist in the original.

25 Can the witness please try to follow what I'm reading, I'm going

1 to read slowly.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Also -- yeah, go ahead and I will comment later, if

3 necessary. The procedure should be as follows: As Madam Vidovic reads

4 out from the document, this page from P84, I don't know if you have it

5 available - the interpreters - or not, but could you kindly please

6 translate to us not by reference to the English version that we see on the

7 screen, but just translate to us as if you are interpreting under normal

8 circumstances. All right?

9 Yes, Ms. Vidovic, please.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] "The decision was made in terms of

11 the continuation of military activity to carry out additional

12 reconnaissance in the course of the 9th of December, 1992. On the 10th of

13 December, 1992, at 1120 a staff meeting will be held at which a final

14 decision will be taken. The number of participating units and the number

15 of fighters will be increased."

16 Your Honour, I see the same mistake here. I'm not sure that it is

17 the same tense. It is being increased.

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters believe the meaning is the

19 same.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] At any rate, the witness is asked to

21 follow. "The Kragljivoda units will be included and they will

22 reconnoitre" -- Your Honour, I am saying "they are being included" and

23 not "they are going to be included."

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. Go ahead.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] "And they will reconnoitre the area

1 Piricko Brdo-Sikiric. The Biljeg Battalion is adjoining the Voljavica men

2 and is reconnoitring in Voljavica. Reconnaissance and preparation," and

3 there is an illegible bit of text, but anyway, afterwards it says, "is

4 carried out by the Stari Grad." Is that sufficient?

5 Your Honour, what I am trying to draw your attention to is that in

6 the B/C/S language there is a huge difference between saying "is being

7 joined" or "is going to join." The implications are completely different.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes.

9 Go ahead.

10 MS. SELLERS: Yes. Thank you, Madam Vidovic for the translation.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.

12 MS. SELLERS: Yes --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: It hasn't actually solved one of the issues that

14 Madam Vidovic raised, because if I heard her well when she first raised

15 the matter, she also objected to the translation of a certain word

16 into "units." Is that correct or not? Because it has been translated

17 into "units" again. So if you think that it should be translated into

18 something else, please tell us so.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it says "the Voljavica

20 men" and not "the unit from Voljavica," as was translated in the text read

21 out by Mrs. Sellers.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. All right. So you know now what the position

23 of the Defence is as related to this part of the text. So you please --

24 MS. SELLERS: Yes --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: -- can proceed to put your question.

1 MS. SELLERS:

2 Q. Mr. Malagic, my question is that you testified that Semso Husic

3 sent you to Piricko Brdo. Now, isn't it true that the ambush that you set

4 up at Piricko Brdo was part of a military planning for the attack at

5 Bjelovac?

6 A. I arrived to the Poloznik area on the 13th, late at night. And

7 early in the morning, three young men came along and we set off to the

8 Piricko Brdo area. So some additional information was just unavailable to

9 me or anything else about this activity. May I make an additional comment

10 now?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Please go ahead.

12 MS. SELLERS:

13 Q. Please be extremely brief because we do have to move on?

14 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Please go ahead, but be brief as is suggested to you

16 by Madam Sellers, because there is another witness waiting to start giving

17 evidence and he needs to go back home at the end of tomorrow.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm going to be very brief. In this

19 report, in this document, the reference is to from the people of

20 Kragljivoda reconnoitring the people from Piricko Brdo. At the same

21 time -- I mean, it would look almost if I were sent to reconnoitre The

22 Hague. I mean, I don't have the map here but people from Biljeg can't

23 reconnoitre Voljavica because they are simply unfamiliar with the area and

24 the same areas to -- the same refers to Kragljivoda and Piricko Brdo. I

25 mean, you're a very nice and charming lady, but I can't think where you

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1 get your documents from. You must have realised that they contradict one

2 another --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, stop. Yes, I'm sure that's --

4 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I'm very flattered.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: -- not the first compliment that you have received,

6 but I would suggest that you forget about it and proceed with your

7 questions. Maybe the witness will change his mind.

8 MS. SELLERS: Yes, I'll move on.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

10 MS. SELLERS:

11 Q. Mr. Malagic, if I could slightly draw your attention to the

12 preceding page, the section of the document that we were reading out

13 concerned a meeting held on the 8th of December and at the beginning

14 paragraph that both Madam Vidovic and I read out it talked about a

15 decision taken on the 9th of December for reconnaissance of that area. My

16 question to you is: When you arrived in Bjelovac - and now I'm talking

17 about when you were physically there on the 14th and you set up the

18 ambush - did you know that that was part of a larger military planning?

19 Yes or no.

20 A. No.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

22 MS. SELLERS: I can move on.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Sellers.

24 Mr. Jones.

25 MR. JONES: Yes, and it may not be necessary now, given the

1 answer, but it's being suggested one ambush in this document and the

2 ambush in which this witness was involved, and they're one and the same,

3 of course. That's an inference drawn by my learned friend.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that's how I'm taking it.

5 MR. JONES: That's an inference by her; it's not something that's

6 an accepted fact.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: He can answer about that. If he doesn't accept it as

8 the -- one and the same thing, then he's free to say so.

9 MS. SELLERS:

10 Q. Mr. Malagic, now I have to take you to a part of that time period

11 that you've testified was rather hard for you. You mention that Sesmo

12 Husic died during that time period, was killed. Could you please just

13 remind the Trial Chamber where he died, if you know.

14 A. Yes. He was killed on the 14th of December, in the fighting

15 around Kunjerac.

16 Q. Yes. Do you know whether he was with anyone else in the fighting,

17 any other -- well, let me ask you directly. Do you know whether he was

18 with any of the other fighters from Pirici or from that area?

19 A. No, I don't know that.

20 Q. Okay. I would now ask Mr. Malagic to stay with the same document.

21 I am going over to page 38 in the English version and the B/C/S version,

22 the ERN number is 02115092. I would like to draw your attention to the

23 paragraph that begins with: "The ambush in Voljavica around 100 men in

24 two ambushes," but more in particular it is the line underneath that that

25 says: "Kunjerac, Mido and Semso with 20 men each from one side."

1 Now, the date of this section is the 10th of December. I am

2 asking you, it is your testimony that Sesmo died on the 14th in Kunjerac

3 in battle. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes, on the 14th and on the 10th I was still at Likari and here it

5 says the 10th.

6 Q. Yes. Now, to your knowledge I would like to ask you whether Mido

7 and Semso, Mido meaning Midhat Salihovic, were they together during the

8 combat operations, actions, on the 14th of December in Kunjerac, to your

9 knowledge?

10 A. You should have given me a map and then I would have been able to

11 show you. Kunjerac is a hill over Biljaca and the men from Biljaca had to

12 go back there; they're not from Pirici. Midhat is not from Pirici, he is

13 from Biljaca. In order to get back to Biljaca, they had to engage in

14 fighting around Kunjerac.

15 Q. Thank you very much. I just have a couple more questions

16 concerning Bjelovac and I would like to refer to your testimony, sir.

17 Concerning the burning of houses or buildings in Jovanovici, I am now on

18 the transcript the 27th of September, page 33, and you were asked by

19 Madam Vidovic: "Could you please tell the Trial Chamber how these houses

20 were set on fire?"

21 Now, your response was: "Whoever would tell you how they were set

22 on fire would be lying. It could have happened from the shooting of our

23 PAM. Whoever said that they knew exactly how they were set on fire would

24 not be telling the truth."

25 And then you say: "It could have been our PAM, it could have been

1 the Serb artillery shooting from across the Drina, it could have been the

2 bombs dropped from the airplane. So there are three causes for the fire

3 in those houses."

4 Mr. Malagic, would you agree that if a house caught on fire before

5 the airplanes had bombed, it wasn't the airplanes that placed the house on

6 fire?

7 A. I didn't see any houses on fire before the air raid. And I said

8 quite clearly that our PAM was used in order to shoot at houses from which

9 there was shooting directed at our fighters. Any artillery weapon may

10 well set a house on fire. So that might have happened but it's even more

11 true of air raids.

12 Q. Yes, but then you would agree that a house that caught on fire

13 before an airplane came was not set on fire by the airplane? That's --

14 yes or no, you would agree with that?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's -- because I can anticipate what Mr. Jones is

16 going to say. Let's make myself -- let me make myself clear.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It wouldn't --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: If air raids haven't started as yet, you cannot even

19 speak of houses being set on fire as a result of air raids. So that is

20 eliminated.

21 As regards causes of fire before air raids, he has already told

22 you that he is not aware that any of the houses were on fire before the

23 air raids started. So that's the position of the witness, as I have

24 understood it until now.

25 MS. SELLERS: Okay, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: If -- if you think I am wrong, please tell me so.

2 Mr. Jones.

3 MS. SELLERS: No, Your Honour, I just wanted to have -- if that's

4 his position, have that placed on the record and then I'll have a series

5 of questions.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

7 MR. JONES: It's not that it's hypothetical about if X and Y

8 happened what would be the consequence be. But I don't really see how a

9 witness can answer a question like that in any event, because, well, what

10 if there's a small fire and a plane comes and drops a huge bomb and

11 destroys the houses. It's a question of degree, it's a question of facts

12 in each case. I don't want this witness to answer a hypothetical about

13 what would be responsible for damage when he has no idea.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you, Mr. Jones.

15 No questions hypothetical that would elicit a hypothetical

16 answer. And let's --

17 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, may I just state that this witness had

18 many hypothetical questions posed to him on direct, and I think in

19 cross-examination we are allowed to use, to a certain degree, if he has

20 knowledge of a hypothetical. And I will make it as brief as possible,

21 Your Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but having heard hypothetical questions and

23 hypothetical answers before does not entitle you to continue along the

24 same lines. I mean, we don't really give much attention to hypothetical

25 questions and hypothetical answers because, out of their own nature,

1 they're inherently of no probative value. If they are hypothetical, they

2 will remain hypothetical unless at the end of the day they end up being

3 corroborated with hard facts.

4 So put the question that you would like to put to the witness.

5 MS. SELLERS: Mr. Malagic --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course, I will not stop you, but I gather that

7 his position as regards the causes of fire in the various houses was as I

8 said -- and if I am not right, please go ahead and try to correct --

9 MS. SELLERS: Right. Your Honour, it seems that he has various

10 hypothetical positions as to how the fire might have started.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. Yes, yes, yes.

12 MS. SELLERS:

13 Q. Mr. Malagic, you were not physically in the houses in Jovanovici

14 during the attack on Bjelovac on that day, yes or no?

15 A. No, not one of our soldiers, or rather fighters was in the houses.

16 Q. If someone in or nearby their house in Bjelovac saw a soldier set

17 it on fire, you would allow for the possibility that that is how the house

18 burned down. Correct? Yes or no, please.

19 A. I must tell you that there was no combat in Bjelovac itself.

20 Could you please give me a map. Jovanovici and Loznicka Rijeka are

21 different places all together. There was no fighting in Bjelovac and not

22 a single house was set on fire there.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: He said --

24 MS. SELLERS: Please --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: He said --

1 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour. Let me just say Jovanovici.

2 Q. If someone were in their house in Jovanovici or near their house

3 and saw a soldier set that house on fire, then you allow for the

4 possibility that that is how the house caught on fire, yes or no?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Okay. And then I'll come up into one of my final questions in

7 terms of Bjelovac. You've testified that not a single armed Muslim

8 entered Jovanovici, Loznicka Rijeka, and Bjelovac. That's your testimony,

9 right, Mr. Malagic?

10 A. I didn't put it that way. I said that they didn't enter

11 Jovanovici and that later on I found out that a smallish group of people

12 from the direction of the river Drina got as far as some houses in

13 Loznicka Rijeka. You must make a distinction between Loznicka Rijeka and

14 Jovanovici. So that smallish group of people which was in combat against

15 those special forces, Mungus and Koke [phoen], and probably the planes

16 were used to target those people and their houses in Loznicka Rijeka that

17 we saw. That what I said.

18 Q. [Previous interpretation continues] ... saying you need to be

19 fair. I'd like you to just be a bit briefer. So I understand your

20 evidence that the smallish group of people came into combat from

21 Jovanovici. I would like you now to turn to the document in front of you

22 and the ERN number, I am on the English page 37, ERN 02115090. Again,

23 we're at meetings of the Srebrenica OS Staff of 10 December 1992.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the next page.

25 MS. SELLERS: And I'm going down under section 1, the third

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1 paragraph, where it says: "Nedzad Mis can only take the personnel

2 carrier."

3 Q. Do you see where I am, sir?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think he can see where you are because if

5 it's 5090, then --

6 MS. SELLERS: 5019.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Then we have to move. Next page, 37. All right.

8 Page 31 -- sorry --

9 MS. SELLERS: 37.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: 5091, it's the fourth paragraph before the end.

11 Fourth paragraph before the end. It starts with Nedzad Mis can only take

12 the personnel carrier. Attack Bjelovac from the Drina - the main attack.

13 Bjelovac can fall only when Loznicka Rijeka falls."

14 MS. SELLERS:

15 Q. So other than the conversation, Mr. Malagic, with your cousin,

16 were you aware that the main attack of Bjelovac came from the direction of

17 the Drina river?

18 A. The main thrust of the attack - and I could see it better than the

19 rest of them - was from Pirici and Poloznik in the direction of the house

20 at Jovanovici. That's where the most fierce fighting took place, the

21 houses in Jovanovici and from the hill near Pirici and Poloznik. And I

22 said that I later found out that a smaller group of people crossed a small

23 river which is called Loznicka Rijeka and they came from the river Drina

24 and they tried to enter that part of Loznicka Rijeka, not Jovanovici, but

25 Loznicka Rijeka. And only in that area there was actual fighting because

1 nobody actually entered Jovanovici and there was no fighting at all in

2 Bjelovac.

3 You keep referring to Bjelovac; Bjelovac is something else. We

4 saw a video and we just saw a school in Bjelovac, and then it's in the

5 direction of Zaluzje [as interpreted], et cetera. And there was no

6 fighting there at all and no houses were set on fire either through

7 fighting or air raids or anything. I mean, later on they started

8 destroying the Bjelovac houses during the winter offensive, but there was

9 no fighting in Bjelovac at that stage at all.

10 Q. Mr. Malagic, are you unaware that the main attack into Bjelovac,

11 the larger area - I'm using it as it's stated here - came from the Drina

12 River? Yes or no, please.

13 A. No.

14 Q. Fine. Then I would just like to move to one other point within

15 here. Mr. Malagic, you've testified that Hazim Dzananovic was not a

16 commander, was not a leader to any of the armed men in Voljavica. That

17 was your testimony. Correct?

18 A. Yes, that's what I said. Yes.

19 Q. Is it possible that you were --

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. Unaware that at a planning level at an -- at a higher command

22 structure, that Hazim Dzananovic was considered to be the unit commander.

23 Does that possibility exist?

24 A. Hasim Dzananovic came to Srebrenica from Tuzla together with Muriz

25 Dezdanovic [phoen] in August, and throughout that period he was a fighter

1 at Likari together with us, and later on at Voljavica. So I know him

2 quite well. I do apologise, may I add another point?

3 Q. I would really like you to answer my question --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: If you answer the question and just the question,

5 and leave it at that, it will be much better, Mr. Malagic.

6 MS. SELLERS:

7 Q. Just, were you unaware that at a planning level that was at a

8 higher command structure, let's say, than you that Hazim Dzananovic was

9 considered to be a unit commander? Do you allow for that possibility?

10 A. I knew everything about Hazim and I'm hereby claiming that he was

11 no leader, no commander, nothing of the sort.

12 Q. Might I draw your attention now to the same document in front of

13 you, and the page number will be for the B/C/S 02115109, and that is on

14 page 30 -- I'm sorry, page 50 of the English version. And you will see

15 under section Roman numeral III it's listed 1, 2, 3, 4, and under number

16 4, under Roman numeral III it says: "The Voljavica unit is requesting

17 independent battalion status. Not accepted. Hazim is a unit commander.

18 Wait for the end of the attack on Jezero and then form a unit."

19 And under number 5 it says: "The Voljevac people are requesting

20 food. Sugar and beans are to be approved."

21 Are you just unaware that that happened? Just yes or no to my

22 question.

23 MR. JONES: Several times my learned friend asked --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones.

25 MR. JONES: -- asked whether the witness is unaware of the fact,

1 as if these are all a whole bunch of facts that are contained in this

2 document. It's whether that possibility -- these are merely allegations

3 in a document like this.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes. That's --

5 MR. JONES: But there it's a plain suggestion that here's a fact

6 and he can only be unaware of it if he doesn't know of it. It's

7 whether --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: But whether -- I think we have already explained

9 this in the past, that the fact that something is written in a document

10 only means that it is written in a document. Whether it's really happened

11 or not depends on other circumstances, so -- and I think the witness is an

12 intelligent person that he knows exactly. If he's not aware of anything

13 like this having happened, he will tell us.

14 MR. JONES: It's simply -- I don't want to put it as a fact, and

15 if he's unaware of it, it's that he's ignorant as opposed to that maybe

16 the fact doesn't exist.

17 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: There's always that possibility.

19 MS. SELLERS: Certainly, and I don't think that the Prosecution is

20 trying in any form to mislead the witness. I think -- we're on

21 cross-examination, and these are very similar --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: But point taken, and you can proceed. I think

23 it's --

24 MS. SELLERS:

25 Q. So if we would just recap our last question in this area: Are you

1 aware -- excuse me. Are you aware that -- do you allow for the

2 possibility that this occurred, the naming of Hazim Dzananovic, at a

3 higher command structure?

4 A. No.

5 Q. All right. Thank you very much. Now, I would just like to move

6 into my last area. Yesterday, Mr. --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: So we had two last areas because the previous one

8 was also --

9 MS. SELLERS: Subsections, Your Honour. This is the true last

10 area. Okay.

11 Q. Mr. Malagic, yesterday you testified that you weren't aware of a

12 military police being in Srebrenica during 1992. I would just ask --

13 A. Yes, that's what I said.

14 Q. I would just like you to see this very short videoclip, please.

15 [Videotape played]

16 "DP: There's no question that those are big problems. Is the

17 military police a branch of the military under which -- of which you were

18 a commander?

19 "NO: Yes."

20 MS. SELLERS:

21 Q. So, Mr. Malagic, would it be your testimony that you didn't know

22 that Naser Oric was a commander of the military police during 1992, during

23 that time period? Yes or no please.

24 A. No.

25 Q. Thank you.

1 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I have no further questions.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Sellers.

3 Is there re-examination?

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Ms. Vidovic. You may remain seated.

6 Re-examined by Ms. Vidovic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Malagic, yesterday during your testimony you

8 were shown an excerpt from a book by Mr. Ibisevic, Besim. It's page 118

9 beginning with: "Naser Oric, policeman." That was P564.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could give this to the

11 witness again.

12 Q. I would like to draw your attention --

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that's page 7 in the

14 English version.

15 Q. I would like to draw your attention the last part on page 118.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that's just below the

17 middle of the page, number 7.

18 Q. Could you please take a look at that part. And I will quote the

19 first sentence. "Naser Oric, policeman of the Srebrenica police station,"

20 and so on and so forth. I wanted to quote the following, the last part of

21 page 118. "Secret distribution of weapons began. At what price the

22 weapons were bought, most of the members of the staff never learned.

23 Those who had the monopoly over purchasing and distributing of the weapons

24 kept silent. After some rumours, stories began going around but there was

25 no time to verify."

1 Would you agree that the author himself mentioned whispering

2 rumours and stories and that there was no time to verify that?

3 A. Yes, and he mentioned the people from the Executive Board.

4 Q. Thank you. Would you agree that this is based on unconfirmed

5 stories, as is put here?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now put P72 before the

8 witness. This is a contract that we saw yesterday.

9 Q. Mr. Malagic, before the document reaches you I wanted to ask you

10 the following: Did you ever see a sales contract in Bosnia-Herzegovina in

11 your life?

12 A. Yes, when I was purchasing some land.

13 Q. Please take a look at the document. You can leaf through and look

14 at each of the pages. Are those pages signed or initialled, with the

15 exception of page number 3, or has only page number 3 been signed?

16 A. Just page number 3.

17 Q. You said you saw a contract of this nature previously. Would you

18 agree with me that each -- such a contract or an agreement has to have all

19 the pages initialled in our country?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Please take a look at the date on the document. It states here

22 "the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Srebrenica TO, the 10th of April,

23 1992." During your testimony you several times mentioned that Srebrenica

24 was freed or liberated. If you can remember, on the 10th of April, 1992,

25 was there any sort of conflict in Srebrenica?

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1 A. No, that came about later.

2 Q. In your knowledge, on the 10th of April, 1992, was there such a

3 thing as Territorial Defence headed by any Muslim person in Srebrenica?

4 A. No. At that time people still resided in Srebrenica. Certain

5 groups did flee Srebrenica, those people who felt unsafe to stay together

6 with their families.

7 Q. Thank you. I would draw your attention to a particular item of

8 this contract, that is item 9. The buyer, being someone represented by

9 Naser Oric, the buyer provides guarantee to the seller that the agreed

10 value of goods will be paid the following way. Argentija auxiliary

11 facility with all of its facilities, Gruber spa with all of its

12 facilities, the forest complex of 500 metres to the right and left of the

13 road, as well as the square up to the area of Argentija up to the last

14 building close to the source."

15 Mr. Malagic, the property stipulated here, was that in public

16 hands in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

17 A. Yes. The Gruber Spa goes back to Roman times.

18 Q. Could anyone have provided such guarantees a private person or an

19 enterprise without a separate procedure.

20 A. Not even the president of the state could make such an offer.

21 Q. Please go down further on the document. It ends with item 11. Do

22 you agree with me, on page 2. On the Bosnian version page 02075806 it

23 states here item or Article 11: In case of dispute, the court of

24 arbitration will make its ruling.

25 If you now go to the next page, what do you see there, what

1 article?

2 A. Article 13.

3 Q. Would you agree with me that Article 12 is missing?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you?

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe the -- such a contract

8 should also be verified by a notary public, but it is not such a

9 clarification.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

11 Q. Thank you for that clarification.

12 A. Attorneys could explain that better.

13 Q. Yesterday you were asked questions as to whether you were visiting

14 your family in Srebrenica. I followed your testimony closely. Was your

15 family in Srebrenica or in Zabonja, which is a village just outside of

16 Srebrenica?

17 A. It's a village outside of Srebrenica.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please give P458 to the

19 witness. P458.

20 Q. Witness, please take a look at the first page of the document.

21 Can you see it?

22 A. You mean page 1.

23 Q. Yes. The Prosecutor showed something to you yesterday. She

24 claimed that they call this the military police diary, and I can tell you

25 that we call this the Livoda [phoen] diary. But I wanted to ask you the

1 following in relation to that. Is there anything in the title that could

2 indicate that this is a military police log or diary? Is there such a

3 title here?

4 A. As far as I can see, this is a log in which my uncle is mentioned

5 as being taken into custody by the military police, but I don't think any

6 military police would deal such things.

7 Q. We will come to your uncle later. Yesterday the Prosecutor asked

8 you about several names from Voljavica. She read their personal data, for

9 example, date of birth. Do you always -- did you know the answer to all

10 of her questions as to their years of birth?

11 A. I knew some of them for some of my relatives, but I didn't for

12 others.

13 Q. Please now go to page 03593145.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that's page 16 in

15 English, in English version. In Bosnian, that's page 22.

16 Q. Did you see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. It says here: Mehmed Malagic, son of Rama, born 1937 in

19 Voljavica, owns an apartment in Srebrenica. I went together with the

20 Jahici men to Voljavica two months ago, and so on and so forth. It says

21 here: "The corn is mine."

22 I wanted to ask you the following: Did you know that your uncle

23 was taken into police custody because of some criminal offence?

24 A. No.

25 Q. The fact that a person from Srebrenica at that time went to look

1 for food, if you found that in any given document that is in existence,

2 would you be surprised by that?

3 A. Yes. And I'm even more surprised because this is apparently

4 mentioned in a military police log. You can see when my uncle was born,

5 so he isn't a member of any group and it is not logical that the military

6 police dealt with that. And I noticed another thing, and you did as well

7 probably: The entire log is in the same handwriting.

8 Q. Thank you. I wanted to ask you something else. It is mentioned

9 here that he went with two Jahici men. Just go to two pages before that,

10 that is page 0359 --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter apologies, we missed the number.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe you could be

13 able to find that. It is a page dated the 14th of December. There is a

14 mention of two Jahic men, Rifat and Ismet.

15 Q. Please take a look at the names?

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And I would kindly ask the usher to

17 put a Defence exhibit before the witness, and then I will go back to this

18 document.

19 Q. Witness, this is an excerpt from a census between the 1st and the

20 15th of April of 1992. This pertains to the local commune of Bjelovac in

21 Bratunac, and you will see here the list of all of the Jahici people in

22 that local commune.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And I've also provided a letter

24 explaining how I obtained this material, Your Honour.

25 Q. Please take a look at the name in the first column on the last

1 page -- actually the second name, Jahic, Ismet, son of Daut. Do you know

2 this person?

3 A. Not by his name, but I knew all the people there so I must have

4 known him as well.

5 Q. Irrespective that can you take a look at his date of birth. It

6 says Ismet Jahic, son of Daut, born 1938. Do you agree with me?

7 A. In my document --

8 Q. Which column are you looking at? Could you please take a look at

9 this list of inhabitants?

10 A. I apologise. Yes, I see it.

11 Q. Do you agree with me?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When we saw Jahic, Ismet, in the other document, which is one of

14 the people that allegedly your uncle went there, what is the year there?

15 A. 1931.

16 Q. And that's also Ismet Jahic, son of Daut?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you agree with me that there were no such people of the same

19 name and with the same father's name there?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I am now going to go back to the latest videoclip. You were shown

22 a very short videoclip, and one gains an impression -- or rather, a

23 question was posed to Naser Oric as to whether he was a commander. And

24 from his answer one is to conclude that he confirmed that. Did you hear

25 what he was talking about at all? Did you hear anything pertaining to the

1 time period that Oric referred to?

2 A. I wanted to ask that question from the Prosecutor, but I wasn't

3 allowed to. I wanted to ask her whether that was prior or after the

4 demilitarisation. So the time period is not mentioned at all.

5 Q. So you agree with me on that?

6 A. Yes.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel and the witness please pause

8 between question and answer, thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you're moving too fast.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before we move on, when

11 I was talking about the question put to Naser as to whether he was a

12 commander, I said "commander of military police," and that is not

13 reflected in the transcript.

14 Q. Witness, did you understand me in that way, that Naser was

15 referred to as a military police commander?

16 A. Yes, I understood it the same way.

17 Q. Did you find page 39?

18 A. No, if we are talking about the same police log.

19 Q. 39 in Bosnian. The date is the 29th of December, 1992.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The date is the 29th of December, 1992. You mentioned Muhamed

22 Cvrk, do you remember that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I will go back to that topic, but before that we will read out the

25 paragraph below. The same person was taken into the military police

1 station based on orders of the War Presidency because he appropriated some

2 equipment, some cutting equipment."

3 Reading this document, what would be your conclusion who issued

4 orders to the military police?

5 A. Well, the War Presidency according to this document.

6 Q. Thank you very much. I wanted to ask you the following:

7 Yesterday you mentioned Muhamed Cvrk. You said you were wounded and that

8 he was wounded. On the 29th of December, 1992, was Muhamed Cvrk in

9 Srebrenica at all, to your knowledge?

10 A. No. To reiterate I was with him and he was in our group with

11 Zajko Alic. He was in Voljavica at that time. Two years before the New

12 Year's Eve. I was wounded, Muhamed Cvrk was wounded, Muhic Mevludin, and

13 Mirsad as well, so four of us, and that was from a hand-grenade.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We will no longer need the log.

16 Could the usher now put P100 before the witness.

17 Your Honour, could we assign an exhibit number to this document?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: It wasn't -- I see. I was under the impression that

19 it had already been tendered. This will become Defence Exhibit D77 --

20 THE REGISTRAR: D776, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: D776. Thank you.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Do you remember this document?

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps to clarify,

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1 this is a voluminous document but we did use some portions of it, although

2 not this one.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... okay.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. As part of P100, there are several documents. We are interested

6 in that one of the 3rd of July of 1992. You said there were several

7 reasons as to why you thought something was wrong with the document, and

8 you were then interrupted by the Prosecutor. In the second line it says

9 here: "Executed by SDS extremists and some forces from Serbia."

10 On the 2nd of July, 1992, you were at Likari. Who attacked you on

11 that day, the local population or some forces from Serbia?

12 A. We were attacked from the direction of Pobrdje and Tablja. So a

13 Pobrdje unit as well as a unit from Zalazje, that is from Sase and that

14 area there.

15 Q. Does this document reflect the situation in the field?

16 A. No, not in any way. And I don't know why somebody had to write

17 such a report. If anyone was to write a report, it was supposed to be us.

18 Osman Malagic was still alive at Likari, and he would have written it.

19 Q. You have no knowledge of the existence of such reports?

20 A. We never put together such reports.

21 Q. Do you have any other particular reason to doubt the authenticity

22 of this document?

23 A. How come it was directed or sent to the Republican Staff at

24 Sarajevo or Tuzla? It was impossible to reach hem.

25 Q. You wouldn't now how it came there?

1 A. Not even a pigeon could get through at the time.

2 Q. Thank you. Please take a look at P516 again -- P116.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: And after this we have a break.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, apart from this one I

5 have just one other question.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: But we will probably have questions ourselves.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So we might take the break actually now and then you

9 can finish. One thing because I need an urgent -- a quick reply from you.

10 There is a possibility of moving the sittings of the 4th October, of the

11 13th October, and of the 14th October from the afternoon to the morning.

12 The three of us are in agreement, but I want to make sure that you are,

13 too. And the 5th is already moved to the morning, the 5th October. All

14 right with the Defence.

15 With the Prosecution it should be less of a problem?

16 MR. WUBBEN: No problem, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So you can advise the registrar that 5th

18 is already confirmed. We move 4th, 13th, and 14th. Okay? Thank you.

19 We reconvene in 25 minutes' time.

20 --- Recess taken at 12:31 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 1:00 p.m.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm just going to ask

24 one question, and it will be with reference to both documents. I'd like

25 to ask the usher to give this document to the witness. Again, I was

1 expecting to see it still there before the witness. I have a question in

2 relation to P00 and P16.

3 Q. Witness, can you take a look at the same document you looked at

4 earlier on dated the 3rd of July, 1992? P100. This is a short

5 document --

6 A. I do apology, there are two dated the 3rd of July.

7 Q. Okay. Can you look at that document and if you can take a look at

8 the third paragraph which ends in: "The artillery position of TO

9 Srebrenica, so the artillery support from the most modern weapons such as

10 tanks, M-84s; grenades, 102-millimetres; guided rockets; and we have

11 exactly 564 shells fired in the direction of Pale. The artillery position

12 of the TO Srebrenica and the town of Srebrenica itself."

13 Can you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you have any knowledge in July 1992 of the TO Srebrenica or

16 the town of Srebrenica or whatever of having an artillery position at all?

17 Does this correspond to the facts on the ground?

18 A. No, absolutely not.

19 Q. Thank you. Would you now take a look at the other document I

20 submitted to you, P116, P116. It is dated the 14th of July, 1992. And

21 the third paragraph again says: "It is very important to stress that

22 apart from losses incurred by the aggressor in terms of human resources,

23 we also destroyed two armoured transporters, tanks, et cetera, and the

24 second tank is -- has taken a direct hit by our artillery."

25 I would like to repeat the same question: Did we have any

1 artillery and is this weapon, M-84, a tank?

2 A. Yes, M-84 could refer to a machine-gun as well, but here it says a

3 tank. It is extremely difficult to destroy such a tank as far as I am

4 familiar with the weapons of the former JNA and we did not have such

5 weapons that could have destroyed them at that time.

6 Q. Thank you very much.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

8 questions.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic.

10 Judge Brydensholt.

11 Usher, if perhaps you can leave a message to have the next witness

12 prepared. Okay.

13 Questioned by the Court:

14 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: I understand that you had a radio receiver

15 in -- or equipment in Likari. Would -- and in the beginning you had a

16 battery which you used to operate it. If you had had a new battery or

17 further battery, would it have been possible then to move this radio

18 equipment when you went otherwise other places than Likari, to take it

19 with you?

20 A. Had we had that kind of equipment, we would have been able to do

21 so, but since we --

22 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Okay. But else it would be movable?

23 A. Yes. It could have been fueled in other places. I explained how

24 it was done later on in Srebrenica with many powerplants, as it were. But

25 a good electrician could have done that but it stayed at Likari

1 throughout.

2 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Thank you.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Eser.

4 JUDGE ESER: First I have a question with regard to terminology.

5 Mr. Malagic, you always rejected the terminology of "commander." You told

6 us that something like a commander did not exist at that time, but instead

7 you would speak of a leader. Now, what did it mean to be a leader of a

8 group?

9 A. It meant that such a leader would be surrounded by a smallish

10 group. Had that person been a commander according to military

11 terminology, there would have had to be a battalion or something of a

12 higher order, as far as I can tell, according to military terminology. In

13 this case it was the leader, just one person leading that one group and

14 being responsible for that group and a person that we listened to,

15 basically.

16 JUDGE ESER: And who would select, appoint, or find out who should

17 be a leader? Was it self-announced that somebody would say, I would

18 like -- I am prepared to be the leader? Or was it some sort of an

19 election by the group of people fighting together?

20 A. People amongst themselves would normally appoint, as it were, the

21 person they felt was the most capable to lead the group, somebody who had

22 a higher education than others or was singled out because of courage or

23 something. That's how we viewed it.

24 JUDGE ESER: And now you mentioned that it would have been

25 possible for you, for instance, just to go away if you want to go home to

1 assist your parents for -- rescue them from starving. Now, in these terms

2 of voluntary to join a group or perhaps to dejoin from a group again. But

3 as long as you have been a member of a group, how was it -- let's say

4 there has been a decision to go to Pirici, could you just say, Goodbye?

5 You may do your business, I'm going home. What it meant? Was there a

6 decision? How would it work?

7 A. Yes, yes. We lived under such conditions. You could always come

8 up with the reason to be able to say I have to go and look for some kind

9 of accommodation for my parents or whatever; nobody would have stopped you

10 or bound you from doing that because we were all in the same boat. If you

11 had no shoes, you had to go and look for some shoes; if you had nothing to

12 wear, the same. So basically you said it and nobody tried to stop you.

13 JUDGE ESER: Now to get it really clear. Of course I understand

14 that you have been free just to leave, but let's say if your group decided

15 to make a certain type of attack or whatever you may call it and then you

16 went -- started to go to Pirici, for instance, could the members of the

17 group just say, You may go on. I decided not to go along with you all of

18 a sudden. Or have people -- members of the group been expected, if there

19 was a decision taken by the group to go on, that you stay together?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes what? I --

22 JUDGE ESER: Just to stay together.

23 MR. JONES: The translation is still going. I think one has to

24 bear in mind --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see.

1 What is your answer to the question?

2 A. Yes. We never forced anyone to do anything. If, for example,

3 somebody was scared to go and participate in the fighting, he could have

4 said so and not participated. Although normally within our group, if we

5 did go, we went together. And if somebody said they were afraid or was

6 too young, we would try and make it possible for that person not to go.

7 If, for example, somebody's brother had been killed earlier and that

8 person was left alone, we took account of that as well. So it was

9 possible for people not to go.

10 JUDGE ESER: Thank you. Now, there was another term which

11 appeared in several connections. There was talk about reconnaissance

12 activities. Now, what does it mean to perform these type of activities,

13 reconnaissance activities?

14 A. In this respect it is about the activities, for example, if we

15 went up to an elevation or something and we'd had a pair of binoculars and

16 we tried to see whether we could see the enemy grouping in any way or

17 whether they were preparing for something or if there was new artillery on

18 their positions. That was essential for us. In that case we could have

19 expected more powerful attacks. So we had to do that, otherwise I

20 wouldn't be here to tell the story today.

21 JUDGE ESER: Now -- okay. Now, as you told us, there have been

22 different points from where you have been able to see movements in the

23 area. Now, how was it done? Could anybody in your group say, I go this

24 way or all given to one point or was it somehow decided member one would

25 go to direction to Pirici, somebody else would go direction to Potocari,

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1 and so on?

2 A. No. Normally we would do these things in a kind of voluntary way.

3 Those were mountain paths, footpaths. And, for example, the enemy would

4 have arrived at Caus just above Bratunac. There were no fighters from our

5 side and there were no Serbs there. So when we got there, it was still

6 risky and we had to be very careful as to how we could get there. We had

7 to sneak up to those positions on footpaths. And then we would just try

8 and check the situation out very briefly and then go back to Likari where

9 we were stationed.

10 JUDGE ESER: I think I understand that you talked about the

11 method, the way how you could there. But if there was need to observe

12 different points, has there been a discussion within our group who of you

13 would go this way or who would go the other way? Or was it just the

14 individual decision of one of you to say, I go there and somebody else

15 would go to another spot?

16 A. This was less essential. We could decide ourselves. Okay, I'll

17 go here or there or wherever. It wasn't so important. We never discussed

18 that at any length at all. If there was something you felt was of

19 interest or suspicious in some way, you could assess the situation even

20 without the knowledge of the leader at any given time. You could just

21 take a walk and check it out.

22 JUDGE ESER: Now, just another point. You have been asked with

23 regard to what Naser Oric may have known or not known. Now, how far away

24 is Likari from Potocari? I think you mentioned 3 to 4 kilometres,

25 something like this.

1 A. Yes. It all depends on what route you take. There is the upper

2 Potocari and the lower Potocari, 4 to 5 kilometres.

3 JUDGE ESER: Okay. Now, you have testified that from Likari you

4 had to go to Pirici and that Mido Salihovic was in Pirici with his group,

5 and that Pirici was never controlled by Serb forces until March 1993 until

6 the demilitarisation, that's on page 11387. Now -- and then you have been

7 asked whether Naser Oric was able to know about this, and you denied it.

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE ESER: Now, if you will see that Potocari is only about 4

10 kilometres away from Likari, what makes you so sure that it was impossible

11 for Naser Oric to know anything going on in this area?

12 A. He said it himself in his own statement that part of Pirici was

13 held by Serbs. So on the basis of that very fact, he didn't know that.

14 But I knew it and everybody else from that area knows that up until March

15 Serbs had never held a single part of Pirici, and I'm certain that Serbs

16 would confirm that as well. More specifically, at that period of time

17 Naser was fighting for Potocari. They had Bljeceva cell in front of them,

18 and there were considerable attacks there and he certainly was not

19 interested in what was taking place at the other end, that is to say

20 Pirici and Poloznik.

21 JUDGE ESER: Now, am I correct in concluding that, when you denied

22 knowledge of Naser Oric to certain events, that you only referred to this

23 event where Mido Salihovic went to Pirici with his group.

24 A. The question is not clear to me.

25 JUDGE ESER: My question is the following: You -- from your

1 testimony two days ago one could get the impression that you knew or that

2 you told us that Naser Oric was not aware of things which you may -- you

3 may have known but which he may not have known. Now, in your answer now

4 you were referring to this problem of Serb forces in the area. Now my

5 question is: When you deny that Naser Oric had knowledge of certain

6 events, do you only refer to this event or would you say generally that

7 Naser Oric did not have knowledge of certain things going on in the

8 area?

9 A. In this case we are talking about Pirici and the Pirici hill held

10 by Midhat Salihovic and his group. So on the basis of his statement, it

11 appears that a part of Pirici, the Pirici hill, was held by Serbs, and it

12 is apparent he was not familiar with the situation in that area. So he

13 did not know. Because had he known, he would have known that there were

14 no Serbs there. It was a Muslim village. They were indeed attacking it

15 all the time from the direction of Sikirici and Jovanovici. But up until

16 March when the winter offensive started, they never actually entered

17 Pirici; they pushed us back in the direction of Srebrenica only at that

18 stage from Voljavica and Biljaca and all these other places. And you know

19 all about that after demilitarisation.

20 JUDGE ESER: I want to get it quite clear. You only referred --

21 when talking about that Naser Oric may not have had no knowledge, you are

22 only referring to this event and you would not make -- want to make a

23 general statement about what Naser Oric knew or did not know?

24 A. In relation to Pirici, I think he didn't know. I think he was not

25 familiar with the actual state of affairs at that time in as far is Pirici

1 is concerned that is.

2 JUDGE ESER: Thank you.

3 No further questions.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge Eser; I thank you,

5 Judge Brydensholt.

6 I don't have any questions for you, Witness, which basically means

7 that your testimony ends here, comes to an end here.

8 Before Madam Usher escorts you out of the courtroom, I should like

9 to thank you on behalf of the Tribunal and also on behalf of

10 Judge Brydensholt, Judge Eser, and myself for having come over to testify

11 in this case against Naser Oric as a Defence witness. And I also wish to

12 confirm to you that you will receive now all the assistance that you

13 require to facilitate your return back home at the earliest. You have

14 overstayed by a day, but that doesn't matter. Your testimony has been

15 extremely important. So before you leave this courtroom, also on behalf

16 of everyone, I would like to wish you a safe journey back home.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, while we await the entry of the next witness --

20 yes, I see Ms. Sellers.

21 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour, I just have one thing related to

22 the evidence of Mr. Malagic, and that is there was a Prosecution Exhibit

23 P441 and we've tendered the transcript. And I believe that we just next

24 an exhibit number --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So that would be in relation to V000-6036,

1 isn't it?

2 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour, I believe that's correct.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So this transcript which is described as not revised

4 consisting two pages is being tendered by the Prosecution, received and

5 marked as Prosecution Exhibit P441 point --

6 THE REGISTRAR: Point 1, Your Honour.

7 MS. SELLERS: Thank you.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Dr. Mardel.

11 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. First of all I would

13 like to apologise for having kept you waiting for so long, but the

14 previous witness took a little bit longer than expected and his -- he was

15 the kind of witness that we really couldn't ask to finish earlier. So my

16 apologies to you and those of my two colleagues, Judge Brydensholt and

17 Judge Eser.

18 I am the Presiding Judge in this trial, and you are about to start

19 giving evidence as one of the Defence witnesses. The procedure on this

20 Tribunal requires that before you do so you enter a statement, solemn

21 declaration, which is in lieu of an oath which you would have in domestic

22 jurisdictions tantamount to a solemn declaration on your part, an

23 undertaking on your part, that during the testimony you will be speaking

24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The text is being

25 handed to you by Madam Usher. Please read it out loud and that will be

1 your solemn undertaking with us.

2 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

3 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please make yourself comfortable.

5 You will only be here for about 20 minutes today and then we will continue

6 tomorrow. We will make every effort possible to try and finish tomorrow,

7 but I am not in the position to guarantee you that for the time being.

8 Mr. Jones, who is co-counsel in the Defence of Mr. Oric, will go

9 first, and he will then be followed by Mr. Di Fazio.

10 MR. WUBBEN: Di Fazio, yes.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Di Fazio, for cross-examination. The procedure

12 is simple. I would imagine that you know what we are talking about.

13 So, Mr. Jones.

14 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 WITNESS: SIMON MARDEL

16 Examined by Mr. Jones:

17 Q. And apologies from me, Dr. Mardel, for keeping you detained.

18 A. I understand.

19 Q. Now, would you start by giving the court your full name?

20 A. Dr. Simon Nicholas Mardel.

21 Q. And your date of birth?

22 A. 12th of February, 1957.

23 Q. And is it correct that you currently live in Barrow-in-Furness?

24 A. Barrow-in-Furness.

25 Q. And you're married with two children?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And if you could confirm the following details: You're a medical

3 doctor by profession, specialising in accident and emergency?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. If I pause, it's for the interpreters.

6 You have an M.Sc. in medical health and a diploma in tropical

7 medicine and hygiene.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you've published numerous articles including on nutrition?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, before the war in Bosnia, you did NGO work in the field in

12 Afghanistan, Liberia, and in Sudan?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And then since 1993 you worked regularly for the World Health

15 Organisation, the WHO?

16 A. Periodically, yes.

17 Q. And do you know if your association with the WHO presents any

18 impediment to you testifying publicly today?

19 A. I'm not aware of any impediment.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do this in a more complete fashion.

21 Have you been in contact with WHO about testifying here?

22 THE WITNESS: I haven't. I know my office is aware of it. I've

23 forewarned them that I might have to -- to come here.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And you have not received any communication from

25 them?

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1 THE WITNESS: No.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

3 Yes, Mr. Jones, carry on.

4 MR. JONES:

5 Q. Now, did your association --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, again. Let me interrupt you again. But

7 I would still, out of an abundance of caution, suggest that if your

8 witness is going to mention any individual from international

9 organisations, that -- particularly his own, to indicate that and we'll

10 have that -- those names mentioned in private session.

11 MR. JONES: Well, yes, Your Honour. Certainly for anyone else in

12 WHO, I wasn't proposing to introduce any of their names. When it comes to

13 members of the UNHCR and other agencies, we've actually already had

14 copious reference to who was present in the areas which we covered, and it

15 might be very cumbersome, in fact, to have to go in and out of private

16 session whenever those people are mentioned. One has written a book about

17 his experiences that has been mentioned during the testimony of other

18 witnesses. So I would submit that actually for representatives of UNHCR

19 that were there in the field that that's not necessary. Of course, I'm in

20 your hands, and I'm happy to --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Forget the person who wrote the book because he

22 exposed himself and we can do nothing about it, but others I would still

23 recommend that we are cautious in mentioning names because some of these

24 people may still be in the field somewhere else and I would rather protect

25 them than expose them.

1 MR. JONES: Certainly, Your Honour. And finally for

2 clarification, that doesn't refer to members of UNPROFOR, that I can refer

3 to them.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Those are common knowledge, anyway.

5 MR. JONES: To you.

6 Q. Now, Dr. Mardel, did you go to Bosnia in 1993?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In what capacity?

9 A. I was a field officer in Sarajevo.

10 Q. And is it right - and I presume I'm allowed to lead on this - that

11 you were in Bosnia for four months in early 1993 and then again from

12 October 1993 to April 1994?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you were based in Sarajevo?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know of a place in Bosnia called Konjevic Polje?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you travel there in 1993?

19 A. I did.

20 MR. JONES: Now, I'm going to ask if the witness can be shown

21 D232, Defence Exhibit 232.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Would the speakers please pause between the

23 question and the answer.

24 MR. JONES: Yes.

25 Q. We're being reminded to pause.

1 A. Thank you.

2 Q. Now, firstly we see at the top it's the French embassy, Belgrade,

3 for the urgent attention of ministry for humanitarian aid, details to be

4 given to an organisation. And then from Dr. Simon Mardel --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Could you put the text on the ELMO and the

6 witness can follow from there, please. The witness can follow on his

7 screen, on his monitor.

8 MR. JONES: Yes.

9 Q. My question, firstly, is: Are you the author of this document?

10 A. Yes, I am.

11 Q. All right. Now, we see pretty much the second paragraph the

12 heading: "Details of medical facilities and conditions in Srebrenica."

13 And then: "See also summary of my visit to Konjevic Polje and Srebrenica

14 5 to 12 March, 1993, by Dr. Simon Mardel."

15 Are those in fact the dates when you were in that area?

16 A. Yes, they were.

17 Q. Thank you. Now, do you know of a place called Cerska?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When you were in Sarajevo before you went on this visit to

20 Konjevic Polje, had you heard anything of Cerska?

21 A. I recall that there were -- an event had occurred in Cerska that

22 was rumoured to be a massacre and that there was a large number of wounded

23 as a result of so likely to be a large number of wounded as well.

24 Q. So when you were in Sarajevo, was it your information that Cerska

25 had fallen or was about to fall or could fall?

1 A. As I recall, it had -- it had fallen.

2 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, I'm going to be referring to several

3 passages of a book called: "Merry Christmas, Mr. Larry," by Larry

4 Hollingworth. Are you familiar with this publication?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And when you came to The Hague did I ask you specifically to read

7 chapter 9 of that book?

8 A. Yes, you did.

9 Q. And did you do so?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. And is it broadly accurate, and we may come to any discrepancies,

12 but as a description of your trip to Konjevic Polje in March 1993?

13 A. It's broadly accurate.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, it's really in the interests of expediency that

15 I'm going to take you to several passages and ask if they're accurate.

16 I'm going to start with page 171, the second paragraph, and in fact we

17 should go into private session because names are mentioned.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go to private session for a while, please.

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 MR. JONES: Yes, I see we're in open session.

13 Q. And is it correct that in Tuzla you were met by Major Allan

14 Abraham of the 9th/10th [sic] Royal Lancers?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And did that all occur on Friday, the 5th of March, 1993?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, continuing on that page there's reference to the Serbs

19 delaying the convoy. It's page 171, second paragraph: "At Zvornik,

20 however, we waited for hours."

21 But would it be correct that you reached Konjevic Polje that

22 evening, Friday, the 5th of March, by road?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. In what vehicles was your group travelling?

25 A. We travelled in small armoured vehicles.

1 Q. And which were you in among these vehicles?

2 A. The front one with General Morillon.

3 Q. Now, we see, and it's maybe one of the discrepancies, page 173

4 towards the bottom. I see the third paragraph: "Naser Oric sent a

5 vehicle to pick up the General. The rest of us struggled for hours."

6 And further down, referring to one of the groups being cold and

7 damp. "Simon, good soul that he is, dug out of his bergen some spare

8 socks and a Gore Tex sleeping bag outer cover.

9 "It was late when we entered Konjevici. None of us gave a thought

10 to the Serb deadline of 2000 hours. The General was in the municipal

11 building with Oric and the local authorities."

12 Now, that suggests that you had to -- that you among others had to

13 catch up with General Morillon. Is that correct.

14 A. Yes. It suggests that when we were delayed at the barricade that

15 he went through on his own. That sounds -- I recall something along those

16 lines.

17 Q. Okay. Were you in the same vehicle as the author of this work?

18 A. I was not -- I did not travel in the same vehicle as Larry, I'm

19 pretty sure I wasn't.

20 Q. You mentioned being in a barricade. Was that -- do you recall

21 your group encountering Bosnian men at some stage?

22 A. I recall the driver talking about what he could see and everyone

23 could hear the driver. So he -- I recall him describing the barricade and

24 I recall him -- the debate between the person in charge of the armoured

25 vehicle and the driver, the to and fro discussion about whether or not and

1 how to push through the barricade eventually, to push it to one side,

2 possibly damaging the vehicle.

3 Q. What was the barricade in fact made up of?

4 A. A -- great big tree trunks. Trees that were felled.

5 Q. And did you at that stage actually see the people who were being

6 spoken to, the Bosnians who were at the barricade?

7 A. I do remember. I think we must have got out of the vehicles while

8 waiting. I remember them looking a very dismal kind of bunch of people,

9 of young men, poorly -- poorly clothed.

10 Q. Did they resemble professional soldiers?

11 A. Not in my experience, no.

12 Q. Do you recall anyone in your group at this stage saying We're here

13 to see Oric or Take us to Oric or anything of that nature?

14 A. I don't recall that specific. It -- a meeting later occurred

15 with -- with representatives, and, yeah, that seemed natural that there

16 should be a delay while that was arranged or even a delay -- I can recall

17 some discussion and delay as to whether or not we should -- we could even

18 be allowed to enter. The men on the barricades, the local men, were quite

19 anxious. There was some -- there was some problem with us -- with the

20 concept of us actually entering, pushing through, with the vehicles.

21 Q. Were those barricades in fact all that was between them and the

22 Serbs?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Or do you recall at any stage on the whole trip from Sarajevo to

25 Konjevic Polje and the time when you were with General Morillon anyone

1 mentioning a mission to see a named individual, a specific person, Naser

2 Oric?

3 A. I don't recall that, but I would not have been -- it was not my

4 responsibility to be involved with -- with that. I was there to assess

5 the wounded. That was my objective, and so I may not have paid much

6 attention to -- to names and details.

7 Q. Now, if we see again at page 173 of this book and it's the third

8 paragraph. "The leader of the group was a tal, thin, mean, lean

9 man. 'Why are you here,' He asked. 'Have you brought a convoy?'

10 'No,' we replied. 'We want to go and assess the situation in

11 Cerska.'

12 'Cerska has fallen,' he said curtly."

13 Now, my question: You said Cerska had already fallen. Do you

14 recall there being any surprise when you arrived in Konjevic Polje, that

15 Cerska had fallen or is that something you knew already?

16 A. This report conflicts with my memory and I'm going on -- I recall

17 the morale of local staff that worked for us in Sarajevo about the

18 situation -- there was a rumour in Sarajevo that Cerska had fallen, and I

19 recall that rumour, if not fallen at least there had been -- there was a

20 rumour of a massacre.

21 Q. Thank you. And then just turning over the page, and we just have

22 a few minutes, but I'm just going to deal with one area with three or four

23 questions. Page 174, the fourth paragraph. "The conversation" -- and

24 this is referring to this meeting which you've mentioned with the local

25 authorities, as I think you've described them -- "the information then

1 moved to medical matters. They discussed the situation in Konjevici and

2 the Territorial Defence plight of Srebrenica. Simon then said, 'I would

3 really like to get to Srebrenica.' This was no surprise statement; we all

4 wanted to go to Srebrenica. Konjevici was a halfway house. But the

5 Bosnians said, 'we can take you tonight.' I saw Simon's dark eyes light

6 up. "

7 'No,' I said. 'It is important that he assesses here first.'

8 'No, Larry, no. It is good if he goes to Srebrenica,' said the

9 General.

10 'No, General, he has not got the equipment and the initial

11 requirement is here.'" Simon by this time had got his bergen on his back

12 and was standing near the door. There was doubt about his feelings."

13 Now, I just want to ask you, is that more or less how things

14 transpired I mean, leaving aside the slightly flowery description, but

15 there was this discussion and you decided to go to Srebrenica.

16 A. I distinctly remember that our mission -- main mission that I

17 understood was to assess the wounded from Cerska and that very quickly we

18 were told that the most severely wounded had been taken over the hills to

19 Srebrenica, which was a surprise to me that there was actually a route

20 between what we considered as isolated enclaves. And they offered to take

21 the doctor there, and I at that point said I would agree with that. And

22 General Morillon supported that. And a discussion did occur between Larry

23 and myself about Larry wanted me to stay and go in the morning and be

24 fresh to do the medical assessment later in the day, and I said I was

25 happier to travel through the night and I was well used to doing

1 assessments or practicing medicine after being awake all night.

2 Q. So in fact, just to tie this up, you did in fact leave that night,

3 Friday, 5th of March, Srebrenica?

4 A. Yes. And in my -- I notice in one of my reports I even used the

5 word "quickly" about leaving the meeting or quickly decided. And I would

6 only have written that, given that meetings tend to go on a long time, I

7 would have written that only if it was indeed quickly.

8 Q. A final question on this. If someone among this group with whom

9 you travelled into Konjevic Polje were you to say that you were around in

10 Konjevic Polje the next day assessing the wounded on the Saturday, that

11 would not be correct, would it?

12 A. Absolutely not.

13 Q. They would have got their facts seriously wrong if they were to

14 state that?

15 A. Absolutely. I -- I know that -- you know, I can't -- I'll never

16 forget a walk through the night and then going to bed in the early hours

17 of the morning in the hospital and if I'd slept in Konjevic Polje, you

18 know, I would have known about it. I would have remembered it.

19 Q. Thank you very much?

20 MR. JONES: That's sufficient for today.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Shall we give this document an exhibit

22 number?

23 MR. JONES: Yes, please, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, this will become D777, and we will continue

25 tomorrow, Dr. Mardel, in the morning at 9.00. And hopefully we won't keep

1 you waiting.

2 Do you think we will be able to finish tomorrow morning?

3 MR. JONES: My estimate, given that we've made good use of this

4 time, is two hours, two and a half maybe, maximum. I'm trusting that will

5 be sufficient.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Di Fazio? Roughly, of course, because we

7 have barely started the direct.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: If it's about background material, medical

9 conditions, and what this witness observed, life in Srebrenica, then my

10 cross-examination will be brief in the extreme. If it's not, then I can't

11 predict.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

13 So thanks to everyone for having overstayed with us for a few

14 minutes. And we'll meet again tomorrow morning at 9.00. Thank you.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Friday, the 30th day of

17 September, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.

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