1 Friday, 25 August 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 8.59 a.m.

6 [The witness stands down]

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Ms. Carter, I've asked for the witness to be

8 withdrawn briefly to clarify certain things which I endeavoured to clarify

9 through the Legal Officer this morning but was unable to get an answer to.

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18 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, for this we should go into private session if

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19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Draga.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: I would like you to listen carefully to what I have

25 to say to you, and when I've read this short statement, I wish you to

1 simply say: I do. Do you understand that?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

4 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I declare.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Carter.

9 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour. Before I begin with the

10 witness, I'd like to bring the Court's attention that this witness will be

11 dealing with paragraphs of the indictment, specifically paragraph 72 (C),

12 paragraph 77 (B), and paragraph 75 (F), along with schedule (F).

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

14 WITNESS: MUSTAFA DRAGA

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Examination by Ms. Carter:

17 Q. Mr. Draga, will you please introduce yourself to the Court.

18 A. Mustafa Draga.

19 Q. And, Mr. Draga, your name has been spelled several different ways

20 through the course of this -- these proceedings. So you -- can you

21 confirm for us the first -- your name -- excuse me, the spelling of your

22 first name as well as your last name.

23 A. My name is written Mustafa Draga.

24 Q. So there is an A on the end of your first name as well as your

25 last name. Is that correct?

1 JUDGE BONOMY: If you look at the transcript, Ms. Carter, you'll

2 see the way the name has been produced, and I think we'll all accept that

3 that's an accurate reproduction of how the name should be presented unless

4 you think there's something wrong with that.

5 MS. CARTER: No, Your Honour, I'll move on.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

7 MS. CARTER:

8 Q. Mr. Draga, we're here today to develop the story of what happened

9 to you in March of 1999. However, before that, there apparently were some

10 issues that occurred in your village in 1998. Can you tell us how long

11 you were living in Lecina village.

12 A. Since I was born. All my life I lived there.

13 Q. Did you raise a family in that village?

14 A. Yes. I lived there with my family, in the village I was born.

15 Q. How many members of your family lived with you in that village?

16 A. Now -- I used to have 20 members, but ten of them do not live

17 there. They are in Germany.

18 Q. May I take it that it is you and your wife and some children. Is

19 that correct?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. And are these adult children?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In 1998, you previously indicated that the village made a change

24 for the worse. Can you describe for me what occurred in 1998 that began

25 to make you and your family members fearful?

1 A. We were scared because some went to Ulcinj. I went to Mitrovica;

2 some took to the mountains. They stopped us in the street. They beat us,

3 they maltreat us. Nobody like to leave his home.

4 Q. At that time, were there any sort of check-points or anything of

5 that nature set up in or near your village?

6 A. Not in the village. In Junik was the closest one, Mitrovica, in

7 other place.

8 Q. You indicated that you had gone to Mitrovica. Had you passed

9 through this check-point that you just referred to?

10 A. No. I passed through the mountains. That was the route I took.

11 I didn't dare pass through the check-point.

12 Q. You indicated there was maltreatment to the villagers at this

13 time. What type of maltreatment were you subjected to?

14 A. When they caught us in the street, they beat us. They maltreated

15 us. People were obliged to leave their homes and spend most of the time

16 in the mountains.

17 Q. Was there any type of shelling or anything like that in the

18 villages?

19 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Objection, Your Honour. This is a live witness,

20 and I'd ask my friend not to lead him.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Carter?

22 No, please don't answer -- please don't answer that question. We

23 have an objection to it.

24 Yes.

25 MS. CARTER: Respectfully, Your Honour, I will try to curtail the

1 questions so that they do not appear to be leading in their nature.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, well, you'll need to rephrase that one.

3 MS. CARTER:

4 Q. Sir, do you have anything else that you believe the Court needs to

5 know about 1998 in your village?

6 A. My village was not burned in 1998; it was torched in 1999.

7 Q. Let's begin in 1999, around the time of the NATO bombings. What,

8 if anything, extraordinary was beginning to occur on March 25th, 1999?

9 A. They started to set fire on houses on the 25th of March and

10 shelling the village. On the 26th, I went higher to -- to a place which

11 was called Leqine. I with my wife stayed in the basement for four, five

12 hours --

13 Q. Sir, let me interrupt you right now and stay with the 25th. You

14 said on the 25th there began to be shelling within your village. Who was

15 shelling at that time?

16 A. Who could have done that other than the Serbian police and army?

17 Q. Why do you think it is the Serbian police and army who did this?

18 A. Because they did what they wanted, to ethnically cleanse the

19 country.

20 Q. On March 25th, were you aware of where the shelling was come from?

21 A. From the direction of Padalishte and Leqine, not more than a

22 kilometre away. This is why we left the house. From where we went --

23 from the place we went to, we could see very well the village being burned

24 and shelled.

25 Q. And when you're saying "the village," are you referring to Leqine

1 or another village?

2 A. It was another neighbourhood we were staying. The village was

3 Leqine, at the edge of the village.

4 Q. Can you tell me which villages or which locations were being

5 shelled on March 25th?

6 A. Padalishte and part of Leqine, half of it. The other half was

7 shelled on the 26th.

8 Q. When the shelling was occurring, was it being isolated within the

9 villages or did it -- had a broader spectrum?

10 A. They shelled all places. First they shelled Leqine, set fire to

11 it, within a 10 kilometres radius.

12 Q. You indicated on March 26th you and your wife went to another

13 area. What is that area?

14 A. Izbica village.

15 Q. What, if anything, was occurring in Izbica at that time?

16 A. Nothing happened on that day, but it did -- something happened on

17 the 28th of March.

18 Q. Why did you choose Izbica as being a location you would feel

19 safe?

20 A. I chose Izbica because I felt it was safer. There was a forest

21 nearby you could take refuge in. There was no place we could take shelter

22 in my place.

23 Q. How long did you have this period of safety in Izbica?

24 A. How long did I stay, you said?

25 Q. Yes.

1 A. On the 26th we went there. On the 27th we stayed there. On the

2 28th the massacre took place. Then I stayed there during all the time

3 that the fighting continued. Then my sons left, some went to Albania.

4 Q. And you'd indicated that on the 27th you were still in the

5 village. Were you in the village proper or were you somewhere near the

6 village at that time?

7 A. In the village, inside the village.

8 Q. Were you in some sort of housing, or were you in the open air?

9 A. Other people stayed in their homes. We stayed outside, in the

10 mountains, in the forest.

11 Q. In the mountains and in the forest, can you approximate for us how

12 many people were sheltering there with you?

13 A. Two or three at the most. They couldn't dare stay there in larger

14 groups because when they shelled they didn't want to be hit by the shells

15 if they stayed in large groups.

16 Q. Did you say -- stay broken off into these smaller groups, or at

17 some point did you become a larger group?

18 A. There were no larger groups anywhere because they didn't dare stay

19 in large groups.

20 Q. Just prior to the massacre, where were you staying with your

21 family?

22 A. I was in Izbica with my family; from the 26th we were there.

23 Q. What area were you in at the point that you became engaged with

24 the -- the Serbian forces?

25 A. In Izbica village. I was there when the Serbian forces entered

1 the place.

2 Q. Were you in some sort of structure or were you in an open-air

3 area?

4 A. When the Serbian forces entered, we were in a meadow with some

5 other people. Then we surrendered.

6 Q. Why --

7 A. We raised four white flags.

8 Q. Why did you go into this field, into this meadow?

9 A. We rallied there together, all of us, because we believed they

10 wouldn't kill us there.

11 Q. When you say "we," who are you talking about?

12 A. There were many families from the municipality of Klina. There

13 were over 20.000 people gathered there, at the least. The sons went to

14 the mountains. I was there with my other members.

15 Q. After the sons went into the mountains, who was left within the

16 field?

17 A. Many people remained there and many of those who were massacred.

18 Q. In this field were there men, women, children? Who was in the

19 field?

20 A. Yes. Who else could be there? Men, women, children.

21 Q. What was the difference between the men who left for the mountains

22 and the men who remained in the field?

23 A. Because they were elderly men and they thought that they wouldn't

24 be killed, because if they knew they would be killed they too would have

25 taken to the mountains because the mountain was not far away.

1 Q. How long had you been staying in this field prior to the Serbian

2 forces arriving?

3 A. From the 27th to the 28th until 10.00 or 11.00 - I am not sure

4 about the exact time - until the Serbian forces came.

5 Q. When you were in the field, what were the living conditions like

6 at the time?

7 A. Deplorable. What could I say? It was raining -- it was raining

8 and mud there. I cannot describe worse conditions than those conditions.

9 Q. Did you have any sort of shelter or were you in the open air?

10 A. We were in the open air all the time.

11 Q. Can you please describe the first time that you saw the Serbian

12 forces arrive.

13 A. What can I describe, you said?

14 Q. Can you describe when you saw the Serbian forces when you were in

15 the field. Can you describe that event.

16 A. When the Serbian forces came to the meadow, they came from all

17 sides, and they asked us for money. Whoever had money on them, they gave

18 them to the Serbian forces. They asked me, too, but I had no money to

19 give them so they gave me a blow here. They started to divide men from

20 women --

21 Q. Sir, I want to explore with you for a moment who these Serbian

22 forces were. Can you please describe what they looked like who surrounded

23 you in the field.

24 A. They were police and army forces. We didn't even dare look up at

25 them to see how they looked like because they were behaving very badly

1 towards us.

2 Q. How did you know that they were police and army?

3 A. Because of their clothes.

4 Q. What kind of clothes were they in?

5 A. Camouflage.

6 Q. What colour was the camouflage?

7 A. Like green, grass green. I'm sure they know who gave them those

8 clothes.

9 Q. Were all of the members who surrounded you in the field, were they

10 all in green or just some of them?

11 A. The ones who were closer to us I could see because, as I said, we

12 were too afraid to look at them.

13 Q. Now, sir, in your younger years you actually served in compulsory

14 military service. Is that correct?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. Is it fair to say or not that you would be familiar with uniforms

17 due to that service?

18 A. I did my military service in the 1960s, so many years have passed

19 and the uniforms have been changed. When I was doing my military service,

20 we had other military uniforms. There is a great difference between that

21 time and now.

22 Q. So once the Serbian soldiers had surrounded you in the field --

23 can you tell me, how big was this field?

24 A. Two or three hectares large.

25 Q. And as the men in the green uniforms were approaching, were they

1 right next to each other, shoulder to shoulder? Were they arm's width

2 away? Or were they much further away from each other?

3 A. They came there as they wanted, you know, because they were not

4 afraid of us.

5 Q. Sir, what I'm trying to learn is approximately how many soldiers

6 surrounded you in the wood? Or in the field, pardon.

7 A. This I don't know. I know that there were many.

8 Q. Okay. Can you say that there were more than 10?

9 A. What are you saying 10? They were 2 or 300, I think. Or more.

10 Q. After they surrounded you in the wood, you indicated they began

11 taking money. Were they taking money from the men only? From the women?

12 Or from everybody?

13 A. I saw them asking money from the men, but I couldn't see what

14 everyone was doing because, as I said, we were many people there.

15 Q. When they began asking money from the men, were you still within

16 the crowd of the women or had you been separated from the women?

17 A. They had separated us when they asked us for money. But they

18 asked us for money even before they started separating us. They

19 threatened to burn our houses and take away our tractors if we didn't give

20 them money.

21 Q. After they requested money, what did they do next?

22 A. After that, they separated the men from the women. They told the

23 men to sit on the right side and asked the rest to go towards Turiqevc.

24 They asked us to line up, asked us for money, insulted us, and started to

25 throw our caps at us. Then one group they sent to the west. They sent us

1 to the east.

2 Q. Sir, let me ask you, when you're referring to these two groups

3 being sent to the west and to the right side, are you referring to the men

4 only or are you referring to the men and the women being these two groups?

5 A. No. They told the women to go towards Turiqevc, while the men --

6 one of the group of men was sent to the west and I was in the group that

7 was sent in the direction of the east.

8 Q. And when the women went to Turiqevc, were there any men with them

9 whatsoever or were all the men taken out of that group and brought into

10 the two groups you refer to going east and west?

11 A. I didn't see any men in that group of women that day. I didn't

12 see any.

13 Q. When the men were separated from the women, how many men were

14 there?

15 A. I couldn't count them. I didn't dare look around, but there were

16 a lot of men. I thought maybe 200.

17 Q. When you were separated into the two groups, how many men in

18 uniform were with each group?

19 A. When we were taken in -- to the eastern direction and were told to

20 go to the site of the mountain, we were lined up. We were told to walk

21 two abreast. They were insulting us, and they shot at us. And people

22 fell down. I fell down. Hajriz Draga fell on me. He called for help. I

23 didn't have any water or anything to help him. I stayed here lying down

24 for some time, and then I got up and went towards the mountain, And I

25 didn't dare get out of the forest of the mountain.

1 Q. When you said that you were lined up and walked two abreast to the

2 point of the massacre, was it the same -- were you being escorted or were

3 you walking alone?

4 A. They were accompanying us. That's where the massacre happened.

5 People were walking when they were shot.

6 Q. And you say "they were accompanying us." Is it the same men in

7 green camouflage uniforms, different men, or a combination of the two?

8 A. I have come here to tell the truth. When they were escorting us,

9 I didn't dare to look at them, what kind of clothes they were wearing.

10 They then shot at us.

11 Q. Do you recall what the man looked like who separated you into the

12 two groups?

13 A. When we were separated into two groups, their uniforms were

14 camouflage. One of them was wearing something like a black uniform.

15 Q. Were there any other uniforms that you can remember?

16 A. I can't remember. I can't remember that there were any where I

17 was.

18 Q. You'd also indicated that when you were in the lines that they

19 were throwing your hats at you. Can you please tell us what is the

20 significance -- what is the insult there?

21 A. Well, you know, that's an insult. They were playing with our

22 hats. They were beating us. Why did they play with the hats as well?

23 Q. Sir, what is your ethnicity?

24 A. I am an Albanian, a Muslim.

25 Q. And, sir, do the Serbs who lived in this area, do they wear these

1 hats or is this strictly something of your group?

2 A. The hats are worn by Albanians only. My father used to wear it.

3 My grandfather used to wear it. My sons don't wear it anymore, but the

4 Serbs don't wear this kind of hat we call plis.

5 Q. As they were beating you, were they saying anything to you?

6 A. Yes. They shouted abuse at us, at Rugova, Thaqi, all kinds of

7 insults.

8 Q. Then you indicated that they began to walk you somewhere. Can you

9 please describe to the Court in detail what that final walk before the

10 massacre was like.

11 A. We were at the meadow. We were separated, men from women. We

12 were told to line up. We -- they asked us questions. They insulted us.

13 As I told you, they played with our hats. When they came to me, they told

14 us to go towards the east. There was another group who went to the west.

15 Milazim was there. We were told to go up the mountain. They were

16 insulting us at that time saying: F your mothers. And they told:

17 Return. Come back, come back. And we were turning around, and they shot

18 at us. I will never forget that. Only the day I die will this be erased

19 from my mind. I lived this.

20 Q. As they were shooting at you, how many men, if you know, died that

21 day in your group?

22 A. I don't know how many were killed, because from the 28th to the

23 31st of March we didn't dare go there again. But when we buried them, we

24 counted that there were 147.

25 Q. You had indicated previously that when you fell to the ground,

1 Hajriz Draga fell on top of you. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes. Correct.

3 Q. Sir, how long were you required to lie in a field of dead men with

4 a friend lying on top of you?

5 A. About 30 minutes, at the least.

6 Q. What was happening around you in those 30 minutes that you did not

7 feel safe enough to be able to leave that massacre site?

8 A. When they executed us, they went to the meadow. But we didn't

9 know that they had gone to the meadow.

10 Q. And --

11 A. Because I was afraid to look around where they were because I was

12 afraid also that they would kill me. Again, start shooting again.

13 Q. After those 30 minutes, you had indicated that you were able to

14 leave the massacre site. Where did you go?

15 A. I went about 15 -- 50 metres away, to the mountain, and I stayed

16 there. I was afraid to go back and look at the bodies. I didn't dare go

17 and look at Hajriz, how he was or what his situation was, because the

18 police and army was right there, a little further away.

19 Q. When you crawled into the woods, were there any other survivors of

20 your group of men?

21 A. Musli Hajra from Klina, he took my hand and took me to the

22 mountain. We stayed there. He was killed a month later. He told me:

23 You have to crawl. Come here, come here. You have to crawl because

24 everything is burning.

25 Q. Did you see the burnings that he was talking about?

1 A. We saw from there, from the mountain -- we could only see the

2 smoke, nothing else, and the people.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Draga, remind me of the name of the person who

4 fell on top of you.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hajriz Draga. He was from my

6 neighbourhood. He was also a cousin.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Was he killed or did he survive?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was alive at the beginning, but

9 he died later.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: That -- the same day?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, on the same day.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Was he able to leave the spot at which he fell or

13 did he die there?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he died there, on the spot where

15 he was executed.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

17 Ms. Carter.

18 MS. CARTER: In anticipation of what I believe Your Honours are

19 trying to learn --

20 Q. Sir, you'd indicated that Hajriz, spelled H-a-j-r-i-z, was the man

21 who fell on top of you. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When you went into the woods, did you find other survivors of the

24 massacre within the woods?

25 A. Hajzer Draga, he was a survivor as well.

1 Q. And Hajzer is H-a-j-z-e-r. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes, Draga.

3 Q. And that man from the -- Klina is different from the man who fell

4 upon you during the massacre. Is that correct?

5 A. Hajzer and Hajriz are cousins together, but they're also cousins

6 of mine. We're all relations.

7 Q. Who else did you meet? You'd indicated you met Musli Hajra, now

8 Hajzer Draga. Can you remember anybody else that survived and you met in

9 the woods?

10 A. I didn't see anybody else. I stayed with Hajzer and Musli Hajra

11 for three or four days in the mountains.

12 Q. What were the conditions like that you were supposed to survive in

13 within those mountains?

14 A. Well, you can imagine, no food, no water in the mountains. We

15 were -- nothing was there for us.

16 Q. Sir, you'd also indicated that you were able to see some smoke

17 from which you believe were burnings in a village. Which village was that

18 that you saw the smoke coming from?

19 A. The smoke came from the village of Izbica where the massacre

20 happened. Also, the tractors, I believe, were burning.

21 Q. Sir, can you describe the geography a bit of that region. How --

22 what type of elevation were you on in order to be able to see all these

23 things?

24 A. During the time we were there in the meadow, it was a flat area.

25 When we went up to the area where the execution happened, it was about 20

1 metres higher from the meadow. And we could see the houses and

2 everything.

3 Q. You'd indicated that you had to remain in the mountains for

4 several days. When did the Serbian forces leave?

5 A. The Serb forces left and went to Vojnik and Broj. They left on

6 the 31st of March. On the 30th in the evening -- on the 31st, because

7 they had left, we went and buried the victims in the meadow.

8 Q. When it was time to bury the dead, were there people beyond just

9 those that had been massacred that had to be buried on that day?

10 A. We buried the people who were killed there. They killed even a

11 man who was 105 years old.

12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the name of the

13 person. I believe it was Zade Draga.

14 MS. CARTER:

15 Q. Sir, can you indicate for us who the 105-year-old man was?

16 A. Zade Dragaj. She was a woman. It was Hajzer's mother -- she was

17 Hajzer's mother.

18 Q. Were any other women killed during this time period?

19 A. Yes. There were other woman who were killed en route. We found

20 some in Jashanica, one called Ashe Dragaj, and woman from other places.

21 Q. Are you familiar with a woman by the name of Zoje Osmana?

22 A. Yes, because my cousin married her daughter.

23 Q. Are you aware of her fate?

24 A. She was paralyzed and she was burned in the tractor.

25 Q. Where was she burned in the tractor?

1 A. At the meadow in Izbica, where we were staying.

2 Q. Was this at or near the time of the massacre in which you

3 survived?

4 A. The same day of the massacre, both the houses and the tractors

5 were burned that day.

6 Q. Did anybody die along with Ms. Osmana at that time?

7 A. There were other paralyzed people, Shaban Muslia, Zeqir Salihi and

8 one woman from Vojnik. These people had remained on the tractors.

9 Q. Did they meet the same fate as Ms. Osmana?

10 A. Yes, the same fate.

11 Q. Is it my understanding based on your previous comments that you

12 were one of the members who had to bury the dead?

13 A. Yes, I participated in the funeral, and my sons as well. They

14 carried the bodies on the tractors, on their tractors. Everybody helped

15 who could.

16 Q. How many people were buried that day?

17 A. How could I know, but I think it was 147 on that day.

18 Q. When the bodies were buried, was there any procedure or any

19 marcations that were given to the gravesites?

20 A. They put some planks on the graves with numbers, 1, 2, and 3, and

21 so on, and they buried them without coffins, just in their clothes.

22 Q. Sir, were there other KLA members present at the time of these

23 burials?

24 A. There were, yes. They took part in the funeral.

25 Q. So how did the KLA become involved in this funeral?

1 A. I don't know how it came about for them to be there, but there

2 were so many people. And they had to be buried because the bodies were

3 decomposing. People were not able to recognise their cousins, their

4 relatives, even their fathers. Only the clothes they could recognise.

5 Q. After the burial, what did you do next?

6 A. After the burial, we went to the mountain. On the 10th of May,

7 three people were killed in Izbica. And on the 14th -- on the 11th, 14

8 people were killed again.

9 Q. How do you know that these individuals were killed on the 10th and

10 the 11th?

11 A. I know because I was in the mountains and I took part in their

12 burial. I know that on the 11th my wife and my daughter and my

13 daughter-in-law were told to go towards Albania, the same day that that

14 massacre happened.

15 Q. Who told them to go to Albania?

16 A. The Serbian police and army. The ones that carried out the

17 massacre were the ones that told them to go to Albania.

18 Q. Sir, how long did you have to survive within the woods and

19 mountains around this region?

20 A. I stayed there until the day when they exhumed the bodies. Before

21 they exhumed the bodies, there was a lot of shelling and I went to Izbica

22 again.

23 Q. So that we can get a time-frame, when did they exhume the bodies?

24 A. They started exhuming them on the 28th of May. I don't know for

25 how long it lasted, four or five days, and nobody -- none of the bodies

1 remained there.

2 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, just for the record, this material was

3 not disclosed to us in the 65 ter summary. I presume it falls under the

4 same guidelines as the decision yesterday. I just wanted to have our

5 objection on the record. I presume we'll proceed the same way we did with

6 the witness yesterday.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, that's correct, Mr. Ivetic. We -- the problem

9 is, in this case, I don't have the 65 ter summary in front of me to know

10 whether, in fact, it really is out with it. But in view of the events of

11 yesterday and what we said the Defence could do if there were any

12 difficulties presented by this information coming to light at this stage,

13 we'll follow the same course because it -- it fits into the same area.

14 It's an extension of the evidence that the witness was known to be giving.

15 However, we do make it clear that when evidence, plainly outwith that

16 envisaged with the 65 ter summary, is to be presented by Prosecution and

17 indeed Defence in due course, we expect an application to be made for

18 leave to be extended beyond the anticipated areas. And that course should

19 be followed in all future situations.

20 But please carry on with your questions, which we will allow you

21 to ask.

22 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Sir, you'd indicated that on June -- I'm sorry, on May 28th,

24 approximately, the bodies of Izbica were exhumed. Did you see those

25 exhumations?

1 A. No, we did not. Because first they shelled the area; then after

2 that they exhumated the bodies. We knew from the day they shelled the

3 place what was going to happen. They exhumed the bodies during the day,

4 and at night they didn't work. When they took away all the bodies, I saw

5 with my own eyes that not a single one was left there.

6 Q. When you say "they shelled" and "they exhumed," can you tell us

7 who "they" are?

8 A. They are the Serbian police and army, those who shot them. It was

9 not the Albanians who did the exhumation.

10 Q. Sir, prior to your family returning home in June, were you living

11 in the mountains this entire time?

12 A. Yes, until the NATO forces entered.

13 Q. At any time were you able to return to your home in Lecina?

14 A. I didn't even try to go back to it. Why should I? Everything

15 razed to the ground.

16 Q. You indicate that it was razed to the ground. Does that mean that

17 you were able to see at some point what happened to your home?

18 A. Everything was burned.

19 Q. Was just your home burned or were there others?

20 A. I saw that only once when it was burned, and after that -- the

21 first time it was burned. After that, I didn't go back. No house was

22 left intact in Leqine. Three times they entered the village and set fire

23 to it.

24 Q. You've also indicated that there were times in which you were

25 Izbica. Did the homes in Izbica face the same fate?

1 A. Only a few houses remained unburned, but the bulk were burned.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Carter, I read that evidence as saying that

3 after the witness left Leqine, which was the 26th of March?

4 MS. CARTER: Approximately.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: He didn't go back at all. Is that how you

6 understand it?

7 MS. CARTER: No, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, if you understand it differently, you should

9 seek clarification.

10 MS. CARTER: Certainly, Your Honour.

11 Q. Sir, understandably you have never been able -- you were not able

12 to live in your home again, but did you have an opportunity to go to

13 Leqine and be able to see the place in which your home once stood?

14 A. I went once to see the house that was burned, and that was after

15 the massacre. After that time, there was no reason for me to go back.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

17 [Prosecution counsel confer]

18 MS. CARTER: Respectfully, Your Honour, I pass the witness.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Ms. Carter.

20 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, we'll proceed in this order:

21 General Lukic, General Pavkovic, General Lazarevic, General Ojdanic,

22 Mr. Sainovic, and Mr. Milutinovic.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

24 Mr. Ivetic.

25 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

1 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

2 Q. Good day, sir. My name is Dan Ivetic and together with Branko

3 Lukic and Ozren Ogrizovic, I represent Sreten Lukic in these proceedings.

4 And today we have some questions for you to answer to clear up a few

5 points in your testimony.

6 Now, first of all, sir, do you speak or understand the Serbian

7 language?

8 A. I do not understand it.

9 Q. Okay. Now, the region or valley where your home village is

10 located, does that region have a name?

11 A. The village is called Leqine.

12 Q. Okay. Now, the village of Leqine, is that located in the

13 so-called Drenica Valley?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. And within this Drenica Valley, would it be accurate to

16 state that in 1998 and 1999 the so-called UCK or KLA were present and

17 active in this valley?

18 A. There were a few KLA members. I never had a chance to see them.

19 Q. With respect to the Drenica Valley, isn't it a fact that in 1998

20 and early 1999, portions of that territory were in fact under the control

21 of the UCK/KLA?

22 A. We are not situated in the valley of Drenice but on the edge.

23 Please understand me where we are situated.

24 Q. I understand that, sir. And my question is: Within that greater

25 area surrounding your village, among the other villages that were there,

1 wouldn't it be accurate to state that much of this area was controlled by

2 the so-called UCK/KLA in 1998 and early 1999?

3 A. No, no. It was not under the control of the KLA. It did not

4 control anything.

5 Q. Okay. Now, in your home village of Leqine, in 1998 and 1999 there

6 were some young men in that village who were members of the UCK/KLA. Is

7 this accurate?

8 A. I don't know who was. I know that there were a few, but I don't

9 know who they were.

10 Q. And with these few men that you state were members of the UCK/KLA

11 in your village, was there any type of base or command post contained in

12 the village for these men?

13 A. I know nothing of that, and I was not even interested in knowing

14 anything. I wanted to take care of my own business, my family, I mean, my

15 own affairs. I was not interested in what KLA did.

16 Q. I understand that you may not have been interested in what the KLA

17 did, but did you observe or were you aware of, through other people in the

18 village, the fact that the 145th Brigade of the so-called KLA was in fact

19 based in and around your village?

20 A. I don't know that there was anything in my village.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Draga, did it never worry you, because you were

22 so concerned about the safety of your family, that the presence of the KLA

23 in your village might actually put your family in danger?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. It didn't do anything to me. I

25 didn't have any danger coming to me from KLA. If --

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Did you not think, however, that the Serb forces

2 might attack the KLA in your village, and thus put other villagers in

3 danger?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everybody knew that the Serbian

5 forces would attack, and this is what happened because they were unequal

6 as far as their armaments went.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: But perhaps if you had kicked the KLA out of your

8 village, they wouldn't have attacked?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But on that day in Izbica there was

10 no KLA presence. We were men, elderly men, as I told you, and they did

11 what they did. They committed that bloodshed. Everyone knows that. But

12 thank God now justice is being done and all the world can see what

13 happened then.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand entirely what you're saying about that

15 event. I am not asking about that at the moment. I am asking a quite

16 separate matter which is about the presence of the KLA in your village,

17 and I'm really very anxious to know why it is you had no interest in

18 whether they were there. That if you had shown an interest, perhaps you

19 would have tried to do something about removing them and your family would

20 have been safer.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My family would have never been

22 safe. Since 1997, when they put up those check-points, we always had

23 problems. They beat my sons at the check-points, so we never felt safe.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

25 Mr. Ivetic.

1 MR. IVETIC:

2 Q. Sir, you talk about when the forces of Serbia came to your region.

3 Isn't it a fact that these forces came into the region in -- prior to 1999

4 for the express purpose of dealing with the threat posed by the KLA, who

5 was operating in that area?

6 A. I didn't get your question, sir.

7 Q. I apologise. Allow me to repeat it. Sir, you testified about the

8 years prior to 1999. When you say in 1997 and 1998 that the forces of

9 Serbia came to the region where your village is located, I'm asking you:

10 Isn't it a fact that the reason that the Serbian forces came to that area

11 was for the express purpose of dealing with the threat posed by the KLA

12 who were present there. Is that correct?

13 A. Serbian forces did -- didn't -- didn't come to my village before.

14 They didn't come in 1997; they came in 1998. And as I said to you,

15 whenever they saw you in the street they could beat you and insult you

16 without you doing anything wrong.

17 Q. Sir, my question, I believe, said, and I'm looking at the

18 transcript to make sure, and it is accurate. I was asking you about the

19 forces of Serbia that came to the region where your village is located,

20 not specifically to your village. Isn't it a fact that in 1998 the forces

21 that came, came as a direct response to the threat posed by the KLA who

22 were operating in that region?

23 A. I don't think that is correct.

24 Q. Okay. And are you aware, sir, that the UCK or KLA forces in the

25 region where your village is located, that is to say, within Drenica, had

1 at their disposal machine-guns, mortars, rocket-launchers, and other heavy

2 weaponry?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. Okay. Well, within your village, sir, did many households in your

5 village have any fire-arms or weapons at their disposal?

6 A. I haven't seen that because the Serbian police collected the

7 weapons before. They took me to Stanica and they beat me. They asked us

8 for weapons, but we didn't have any weapons left because they collected

9 the weapons before.

10 Q. Okay, sir, you've mentioned the Serbian police. Could you

11 describe for me, please, the types of uniforms and insignia that these

12 Serbian police that you just described wore at the time.

13 A. They wore the police uniforms. I didn't pay any attention to

14 that. My concern was to get away from them, and this -- that was my only

15 concern, how to find the easiest way to get away from them.

16 Q. Sir, you've just used the terminology "they wore the police

17 uniforms." I need for you to describe for us what that terminology means.

18 What are the police uniforms? What did they look like?

19 A. The police used to wear dark clothes. They came and took me at my

20 home. I was outside in the yard. It didn't even enter my mind to look at

21 their clothes.

22 Q. And when you say "dark clothes," do you know what colour?

23 A. I can't describe the colour. You may know better. I am telling

24 you that they took me to the police station and beat me, and my household

25 new nothing about that. I didn't look at the clothes.

1 Q. We've heard that, sir. How is it that you know that these were

2 Serbian policemen if you did not look at the clothes?

3 A. I knew that because we knew who the policemen were because they

4 had some uniform on them.

5 Q. And so you do have knowledge of the uniform. I'm simply asking

6 you to describe the uniform so that we can proceed with other areas of

7 this examination.

8 A. It was not entirely black and entirely green, but as I told you

9 they keep changing their uniforms every day. I didn't even think of

10 looking at the uniform when they took me to the police station.

11 Q. Now, sir, these people, did they have any badges or emblems on

12 their uniforms?

13 A. I didn't see that. They put me in that room in the police

14 station, and then I --

15 Q. Okay. Fair enough. I'll move along. Now, returning to the

16 moment of the activities of the UCK/KLA in 1998 and 1999, were any members

17 of your family or any other close relatives members of the UCK/KLA in

18 either 1998 or 1999?

19 A. There was no one from my family in the KLA.

20 Q. Okay. And are you familiar with an individual named Shaban Draga

21 or Shaban Dragaj from the same village as you are located?

22 A. I know him.

23 Q. Okay. And do you -- have you ever heard of a Sadik Xhemajli?

24 A. Yes, I know him, too.

25 Q. Okay. And isn't it a fact that Sadik Xhemajli was a local UCK/KLA

1 commander who participated in the funeral in Izbica that we'll talk about

2 later?

3 A. It is true that he took part in the funeral, but as to your

4 question whether he was a commander or not, this I don't know.

5 Q. Okay. Do you recall giving a statement to the Prosecutors of this

6 Tribunal in the year 1999, in November of 1999, wherein you identified

7 Sadik Xhemajli as the local KLA commander in addition to the person who

8 organised -- one of the people that organised the funeral in Izbica?

9 A. It is true that I said he took part in the funeral, but I have not

10 said that he was a commander. That must be wrong. Had I known, I would

11 have said. I remember I said the first time that he participated in the

12 funeral.

13 Q. Okay. And if we can move for a moment to the other individual

14 that I mentioned, this Shaban Draga, how is it that you know him?

15 A. Shaban Draga is from the same neighbourhood of mine, but he lives

16 in Mitrovica for some 40 years now.

17 Q. Is there a younger Shaban Draga who would have been around 22 to

18 27 years of age in 1999?

19 A. There is no other Shaban in Leqine, not by the last name of Draga.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Ivetic, is this a suitable time to

21 interrupt you?

22 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour, I think I can interrupt here.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Just give me a moment then.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Just -- on the transcript at page 31, line 7, the

1 answer tails off as: "Then I." What I heard the witness say was: "And

2 beat me."

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter may explain that he said: "Had

4 I known, I would have told you."

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what you are asking

6 me.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: No, I'm not asking you anything. I'm just

8 recording something for the transcript.

9 We'll now adjourn for 20 minutes and we'll resume at ten minutes

10 to 11.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Now, Mr. Draga, we left off talking about a Shaban Draga or

16 Dragaj. Isn't it a fact that this individual, Shaban Dragaj, was also

17 involved in the organisation of the funeral at Izbica on March the 31st,

18 1999?

19 A. I did not see Shaban there.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Carter.

21 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour. I would ask for a point of

22 clarification, as it became at issue as to whether we were talking about

23 the man, the Shaban Draga, that this gentleman has known for 40 some odd

24 years or the Shaban Draga that was alluded to who was approximately 22 to

25 27 years old, make the record is clear.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, yeah, you're probably right, but since he's

2 already made it clear he only knows one Shaban Dragaj, it could only be a

3 question about the older one.

4 Mr. Ivetic.

5 MR. IVETIC: It could be a question about a younger one, too,

6 which I will hopefully clear up with the next question, Your Honour. I

7 don't know. I'll find out from the answer with the next two questions, I

8 suspect.

9 Q. Sir, are you familiar with an Abedin Dragaj from Leqine?

10 A. I know Abedin, yes.

11 Q. Abedin, born in 1976, is your nephew; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, he's the son of my brother, if you're talking about the same

13 one I know.

14 Q. I believe I am, sir. Now, I'd like to refresh your recollection

15 about whether you know any other Shaban Dragajs by putting forth to you

16 that your nephew, Abedin Dragaj, gave a sworn statement to the Office of

17 the Prosecutor of this Tribunal on April 24th, 1999, and --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry.

19 Ms. Carter.

20 MS. CARTER: Respectfully, Your Honour, this witness cannot be

21 refreshed from another person's transcript or from his statement,

22 especially in that that person is not coming before the Court. It's an

23 inappropriate recollect -- refreshment of recollection.

24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I'm not using a document, since I think

25 we discussed that that would not be a means of being able to do so with

1 this witness, but I believe that a witness can be confronted upon

2 cross-examination and refreshed with any fact. I mean, his answer will be

3 whatever his answer is, and it may help me, it may not. I'm entitled to

4 ask that question, however.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah.

6 Ms. Carter, what's happening is he's being confronted with

7 something said by another person. Now, that can be done without reference

8 to who that person is and when he said it, but it's helpful to everyone, I

9 would have thought, if in addition to the statement that's allegedly made,

10 information is also given to us about the source. So I will repel that

11 objection.

12 Please continue with the question, Mr. Ivetic.

13 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 For the sake of the witness I think I'll start at the beginning so

15 that there's no confusion.

16 Q. Sir, I would like to try and refresh your recollection as to

17 whether you know of any other Shaban Dragajs, other than the one you have

18 described as being in Mitrovica, by putting forth to you the fact that

19 Abedin Dragaj gave a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, a sworn

20 statement, on April 24th, 1999, in which he identifies a Shaban Draga,

21 that is to say an UCK officer, who was present in Izbica, in the woods, on

22 the time period of the 26th through the 27th of March, 1999, with him.

23 Does that refresh your recollection as to the fact that there is another

24 Shaban Dragaj or that the Shaban Dragaj that you know is an officer in the

25 UCK/KLA?

1 A. I told you earlier that there is no Shaban Dragaj in Lecina. I

2 don't think there is another Shaban in other neighbourhoods as well, let

3 alone Shaban Draga.

4 Q. Okay. Was your nephew, Abedin, in Izbica at the time that you

5 testified to earlier, that is to say the 26th or 27th of March, the time

6 period when you were in Izbica as well?

7 A. Abedin was not with me. He was in the mountains somewhere. I

8 don't know where he was. He was not there with me.

9 Q. But he was in the mountains surrounding Izbica [Realtime

10 transcript read in error, "I see details"], in the forest. Is that

11 correct?

12 A. In the mountains, somewhere, I don't know whether in Tushile,

13 Rakinica, but he wasn't with me.

14 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, before I ask my next question, I'm

15 alerted to a problem in the transcript with my last question. At line 25

16 of page 35, the transcripts states: "But he was in the mountains

17 surrounding I see details." I believe the "I see details" should be

18 Izbica, which is clear, but I just wanted to catch it sooner rather than

19 later for clarity.

20 Q. Mr. Draga, isn't it a fact that during the 26th, 27th, and, I

21 would posit, even the 28th of March, 1999, that there were many KLA

22 combatants in the forests and the mountains surrounding Izbica?

23 A. It's not true, because I don't hear -- I didn't hear any fighting.

24 There were soldiers, I'm not denying that, but there were only a few of

25 them, just a few.

1 Q. I believe earlier you had stated that there were no KLA in Izbica.

2 How do you account for this change in your testimony?

3 A. Not in Izbica, in the mountains. As I said, that day in Izbica

4 where I was, there were no fighters. There were no guns. I couldn't hear

5 any gun-shots or anything. And I take full responsibility when I say

6 that.

7 Q. If I could again refresh your recollection with the sworn

8 statement of your nephew, and I'll read a section of his statement for

9 you.

10 "I decided to move my family to Izbica partly because Izbica was

11 situated in a valley and was therefore less exposed to the Serb guns and

12 partly because there was a greater UCK presence there."

13 Does that refresh your recollection as to the nature of the UCK

14 forces that were in Izbica at the time that you went there with others

15 from your village?

16 MS. CARTER: Respectfully, Your Honour, I would object to this

17 type of recollection -- refreshment of recollection. As the Defence

18 counsel is able to put to this witness his case, what has been clear by

19 this testimony is that this witness was not in the same area as his

20 cousin -- or his nephew. He's said that. So for him to be held

21 accountable for another person's perspective is completely inappropriate.

22 It is not as if they were both in Izbica at the same time and seeing two

23 different things; they are in two separate places addressing separate

24 things.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what would you say he should ask him?

1 MS. CARTER: I would say that he would ask him: Was there

2 fight -- let's see, the question was that Izbica was in a valley,

3 therefore less exposed to Serb guns. He can certainly ask that. Was

4 there a great UCK presence there? He could certainly ask that. To

5 somehow impose the knowledge of his nephew on him is completely

6 inappropriate. He can certainly have the questions made to him, but his

7 answers should stand and not have it appear as if he's given inconsistent

8 statements. And the way it is being done appears as if he is giving

9 inconsistent statements as opposed to two different people giving their

10 own perspective.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's treating us as assuming he's

12 responsible for what his son -- his nephew has said, and obviously we

13 would make no such assumption. But it's not uncommon for

14 cross-examination of this nature to be based on: My information is that

15 there was a greater UCK presence in Izbica. And I doubt if there's any

16 fundamentally wrong with this, but it just doesn't come over properly,

17 Mr. Ivetic. It's -- I think in a different context with a jury, it would

18 undoubtedly not be allowed because it's capable of confusing the situation

19 of the witness's own recollection and what other people have said. And I

20 think it would be much more helpful to us if we just cut to the chase and

21 just cut out all the detailed reference to this other statement, when in

22 fact what you're putting to him is a very simple point.

23 MR. IVETIC: I can do that, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah.

25 MR. IVETIC:

1 Q. Sir, isn't it a fact that people from your village of Lecina left

2 that village on or around the 25th of March, 1999, to go to Izbica because

3 there was a greater UCK presence in Izbica?

4 A. No, that's not true.

5 Q. Okay. And I'll ask you another question about Izbica in

6 particular. Isn't it a fact that in Izbica -- first of all, Izbica has a

7 lower part and an upper part of the village. Is that accurate?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. And is it a fact that whereas the -- strike that.

10 Isn't it a fact that the upper part of Izbica village on and about

11 the 25th and 26th of March, 1999, was in fact held by the KLA and that

12 they had staged a defensive point there to combat with the other forces in

13 the area?

14 A. It's not true.

15 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this: When the civilians in Izbica returned

16 from Tushile to the lower part of the village, isn't it a fact that it was

17 the UCK fighters that dispersed into the woods and into the mountain

18 surrounding Izbica, the same men you previously described as just the

19 young males from the civilians?

20 A. [No interpretation].

21 JUDGE BONOMY: The answer has not been translated.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not see soldiers in the

23 mountains where the families where. Maybe they were farther away, but I

24 did not see them. If I had seen them, I would have told you so. If they

25 had been there that day, maybe somebody would have put up a fight or

1 something, but nobody shot any rifle or anything at that -- on that day.

2 MR. IVETIC:

3 Q. Sir, with respect to the UCK fighters, did they -- you said you

4 did not see any soldiers, but isn't it a fact that the UCK fighters often

5 wore civilian clothing?

6 A. I did not see any in civilian clothes. I believe that the KLA had

7 KLA uniforms.

8 Q. Okay. Now, if we could return to your village of Leqina again,

9 prior to the time you left for Izbica, that is as of March 1999, were

10 there any ethnic Serb civilians in your village?

11 A. No, the Serbs left earlier.

12 Q. Okay. Now, if I can direct your attention to the time period of

13 early 1998. At that point in time, wasn't there in fact a part of your

14 village called Smigic where there was a predominantly Serb -- where there

15 were predominantly Serb households located?

16 A. Yes. There were Serbs living in Smigic, but they left earlier.

17 Q. Let me ask you about these Serbs that were in Smigic, which I --

18 first of all, Smigic is a neighbourhood within your village. Is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. And -- and with respect to this neighbourhood, this Smigic or

22 Zmigic, I'm not sure which is the proper pronunciation, approximately how

23 many Serbian civilians were there in this neighbourhood in early 1998

24 before they all left?

25 A. How could I know? I believe there were 10 or 12 households.

1 Q. Okay. And, sir, isn't it a fact that in -- sometime in 1998, the

2 UCK/KLA, again, in your home village, abducted and murdered several

3 persons from the Zmigic households, that is to say ethnic Serb civilians?

4 A. I don't know. I didn't hear about that. At that time I was in

5 Mitrovica.

6 Q. Did you not pay attention to events in your home village?

7 A. No. You know, I wanted to get as far away from the threat as

8 possible. I did not follow the events in my village.

9 Q. You did not find it odd that 10 or 12 households from your village

10 left in 1998, all around the same time, all of them Serb civilians?

11 A. No. I didn't find it odd because the Albanians left as well.

12 They went to Montenegro and everywhere they could. It was Albanians, in

13 fact, that left in larger numbers than the Serbs.

14 Q. But, sir, isn't it a fact that all the Serb civilians of your

15 village left after the UCK, which you said was not really in your village,

16 operated in your village to kill several members of the Smigic household?

17 A. I did not hear about that.

18 Q. Okay. And let me again -- let me again refer you to Abedin Draga,

19 and if I put to you that in his sworn statement dated April 12th --

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's not go down that road. Just put to him what

21 it is you want to put to him.

22 MR. IVETIC: Okay.

23 Q. The question is, if Mr. Draga was there in 1998, Mr. Abedin Draga,

24 if he stated that the area was nominally under the control of the KLA/UCK,

25 you would have no information to debate that, would you? To refute that,

1 I should say.

2 A. I don't know what the date was, but it was Abedin Draga that was

3 the first one to leave to go to Albania. I don't know what he wrote in

4 his statement.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Stop.

6 Ms. Carter, what is it?

7 MS. CARTER: Respectfully, Your Honour, after speaking with our

8 case manager, it appears the Defence counsel has released no documents

9 pursuant to your discovery -- or, excuse me, your evidence order. The

10 usage of this statement or any statement in reference to the

11 cross-examination of this witness is completely inappropriate, as the

12 proper releases were not given by the Defence.

13 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honour, in preparing for this

14 cross-examination I had not really intended to posit some of these

15 questions, but the testimony is somewhat different from the statement that

16 was given to us and the Rule 65 ter summary that was given to us from the

17 Office of the Prosecutor regarding what we were to expect to hear here

18 today. So obviously I'm trying to address facts that were brought into

19 evidence based upon the direct testimony of the witness that, thankfully,

20 I happened to have had the luck to stumble upon material that assists me

21 in that regard.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: You're not convincing me, Mr. Ivetic. You sound

23 pretty well-prepared for this cross-examination.

24 MR. IVETIC: Well, that's what happens when you stay up until 5.00

25 in the morning preparing.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, if you anticipate using documents, they

2 should be disclosed. The rule is quite clear.

3 MR. IVETIC: And I'm not using this document. I'm positing facts

4 to him.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: That's a different answer, and I think that means

6 now that we quite clearly depart from this idea that you can use the

7 evidence of one person to confront another by referring to his sworn

8 testimony in a statement, which is quite different, in fact, from anything

9 that might have been said in a judicial context. And let's just put the

10 points to the witness that you want him to address, rather than refer to

11 statements which we are -- which have not been logged into the system.

12 MR. IVETIC: That's fair enough. And actually that's -- the last

13 question that I asked was the last one that I had from that -- in that

14 line of questioning, so I can move on. I just have to see whether he's

15 actually answered the question before we departed on this tangent.

16 [Defence counsel confer]

17 MR. IVETIC: I believe he did answer, so I will move on to -- for

18 what it's worth, I will move on with the remainder of my examination.

19 Q. Now, sir, in -- earlier today you mentioned an encounter with the

20 Serbian police whereby you claim that they mistreated you, and I believe

21 it was either in 1997 or 1998. In any event, I would ask you to focus on

22 that portion of your testimony. And I would ask you: After that

23 encounter, did you in fact report that conduct to any higher police

24 officials? Did you file a complaint?

25 A. Who could I complain to? Do you think that I could go to the

1 people that beat me up, for them to beat me again?

2 Q. Well, sir, the OSCE and other international missions were in

3 Kosovo and Metohija during parts of that time period. Did you ever lodge

4 a complaint with any of these organisations?

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, are you aware of a system for

6 complaints being made of this nature to these bodies?

7 MR. IVETIC: I'm asking --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Or are we really just playing games with this kind

9 of thing? I mentioned the other day the importance of concentrating the

10 cross-examination on what really matters here, and trying to skip the

11 margin -- the things that are of marginal importance. Do you really think

12 that going along this road with this witness is a profitable route to

13 inform the Bench on the issues that we really have to determine in this

14 case?

15 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honour, I believe notice to the accused is

16 of critical importance in these proceedings and, with respect to events

17 that the Prosecution leads, I think I'm entitled to ask about whether this

18 witness made any type of efforts to provide notice of the --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Why can't you just settle for the first answer and

20 get on? You know he hasn't complained. So why don't we just move on

21 rather than to do all this dancing around these sort of formalities that

22 you and I might consider appropriate in the context, but which is very

23 difficult to imagine the witnesses that we're hearing from would dream of

24 doing.

25 MR. IVETIC: On a certain level I agree with you, Your Honour, but

1 I also thought that his statement -- that his sworn statement was very

2 clear, and I've been shown to be otherwise today. So, unfortunately I

3 have to explore areas that I will not focus on but that are of some

4 importance to me.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: I take it that you, like me, were not surprised

6 that the Prosecution had departed from the sworn statement approach in the

7 case of this witness.

8 MR. IVETIC: That's correct.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Indeed, and what we're getting is a much more

10 accurate reflection of how this witness is capable of recording events

11 than that statement would ever have given us.

12 MR. IVETIC: But it calls into question, Your Honour, the validity

13 and probative value of other statements taken by the Office of the

14 Prosecutor which are being admitted in great number in these proceedings.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: No. No, it doesn't. It only -- it only raises

16 issues in relation to this particular witness and to no one else.

17 MR. IVETIC: Okay. I will accept those comments, Your Honour, and

18 I'll move on to another portion of my testimony.

19 Q. Now --

20 MR. IVETIC: Excuse me, my examination; the witness's testimony.

21 Q. Now -- one moment.

22 If we could focus on the events in Izbica, and in particular in we

23 could focus on the time period when you stated that the group of men were

24 separated, is it fair to say that there was one individual among these

25 armed forces that separated the group into two groups?

1 A. There wasn't a single person. There were many more than one.

2 There were quite a lot there.

3 Q. I'm asking about the manner in which the group was divided into

4 two. You mentioned an individual whom you said had a black uniform. Is

5 that the man who divided the larger group into two groups, the group you

6 were in and the other group?

7 A. When they had already separated men from women, that person

8 divided the group of men into two groups, telling one group to go east and

9 the other group to go west.

10 Q. That's the man I'm talking about. And I want to ask you: Is it

11 true that there was only this one man who actually divided the groups?

12 A. When they first divided us, they were all there. But this person

13 told us to divide into two groups and lead one group in one direction and

14 the other group in the other direction, and I will never forget this man.

15 Q. Now, sir, this person that divided you, you said there were police

16 and other forces there. First, this person who divided you, was he a

17 police officer or something else?

18 A. I didn't look at him properly.

19 Q. Now, you mentioned that in your testimony today that Milazim was

20 in the other group. Would that be a reference to Milazim Thaqi?

21 A. Milazim was in the group that went west. I was in the group that

22 went east when they divided us at the meadow.

23 Q. Okay. And are you aware, sir, that Mr. Thaqi testified here for

24 us yesterday and at -- at around the transcript pages --

25 A. Yes, I know.

1 Q. At around the transcript page 42, line 5 through 7 and 60 -- line

2 24, he gave a very different description of the nature of the clothing

3 that this gentleman was wearing. Could -- well, do you have any way of

4 reconciling that discrepancy?

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, how on earth could he answer that question?

6 MR. IVETIC: That's true. Let me ask a different question.

7 Q. Sir, is it fair to say that you did not get a good look at the

8 people that were there with guns in Izbica that are alleged to have done

9 the shooting, and that you therefore don't know what forces they belong

10 to?

11 A. Milazim was on the side of the men who were told to go in the

12 other direction.

13 Q. Okay. Let me ask you a different question. In your direct

14 examination you said that the Serb forces that were coming into Izbica

15 included the Serbian police. How is it that you could identify members of

16 the Serbian Ministry of Interior as being among the Serb forces if you

17 could not get a good look at the uniforms?

18 A. I told you once and I am telling you again. I didn't look at the

19 uniform. I know that the police and the army -- the Serbian police and

20 the army came, and I may tell you that I didn't even dare to look at them,

21 have a good look at them or at their clothes. I don't know why you are

22 asking this of me again.

23 Q. What I'm trying to find out is: Upon what do you base the

24 assertion that the police were there? If you don't know, I can move on,

25 just say that you don't know if you truly don't know.

1 A. I am telling you that there was the police and the army and they

2 divided us and then they shot at us. What else can I tell you? I'm

3 telling you the true things of what happened there.

4 Q. Okay. Now I would like to move to the burial site. You testified

5 in -- during your direct examination from the Prosecutor's office that

6 there were persons that were killed in May of 1999. Is it a fact that the

7 bodies of those people as well were buried at the same Izbica burial site

8 as the persons that you state were killed on -- in the event that you've

9 described here that you were part of?

10 A. The bodies killed in the massacre were buried in the same place.

11 Also, other people who were shot in other places, and they were buried in

12 the same place.

13 Q. And what I'm trying to find out is: Is it not true that

14 persons -- that persons or bodies from several areas over a period of time

15 of several months were collected and buried at the Izbica location, and

16 that these were not all from the same occurrence?

17 A. The first day of the massacre they were buried at Izbica. Some

18 were killed on the way. The lady who was over 100 years old. On the 11th

19 of May, they killed three; on the 14th of May, they killed 11. They were

20 also buried in the same place.

21 Q. I think I will take that as a "yes" that bodies from other

22 locations and from other incidents over a span of time of several months

23 were buried in Izbica. Am I accurate in taking that as a yes?

24 A. Those who were killed in Izbica were buried in Izbica. No other

25 bodies killed elsewhere are brought -- were brought and buried there.

1 Q. But persons were buried there who -- strike that.

2 Persons were buried there in the months following March of 1999.

3 Is that not accurate?

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Don't answer that, please.

5 Mr. Ivetic, the answer is as plain as day, that that's --

6 MR. IVETIC: The first one was, but the second one --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: One has to wonder why you ask the second question.

8 Just --

9 MR. IVETIC: Okay.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: -- move on.

11 MR. IVETIC: I will.

12 Q. Now, with respect to the persons buried there, were -- do you have

13 knowledge of any UCK fighters that may have been also interned at the

14 Izbica burial grounds with the other people there?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Fair enough. Now, the Office of the Prosecutor asked you about

17 exhumations of the bodies, and I believe you testified that that this

18 place over several dais and during the day-time. Based upon your

19 information relative to these exhumations, were there -- or what type of

20 personnel performed the exhumations? That is to say, were there civilians

21 present for the exhumations?

22 A. I didn't see them. I know that it was the Serbian police and

23 army, because they wanted to cover up the traces of the crime. Nobody was

24 interested in coming and exhumating these bodies and taking them to

25 Belgrade or Mitrovica or ...

1 Q. Now, sir, you testified, and it sounded to me like you had quite a

2 bit of knowledge of these exhumations or at least that's the way your

3 testimony was presented to us. So I'm going to ask you: Based upon the

4 information that you had, did it appear that the persons who were exhuming

5 the bodies did not take any efforts to hide their efforts since they were

6 undertaken in the day-time, over a span of several days?

7 A. As -- what I told you is true.

8 Q. And how or from whom do you have knowledge of the exhumations that

9 were -- that you state were undertaken of the bodies in Izbica?

10 A. First we learned because of the shelling, and then after three,

11 four days we went to the site and we didn't see a single corpse. They had

12 all been removed.

13 Q. Did you -- sir, I believe in your direct examination you made

14 specific reference to the time of day that the exhumations were carried

15 out and the number of days that it took for the exhumations to be

16 undertaken. From whom or in what manner did you acquire such specific

17 information?

18 A. Everybody saw that because in the evening they left and we went to

19 the place and saw what had happened when dark fell.

20 Q. So are you telling us that all of the testimony that was elicited

21 from you regarding the exhumations is -- that none of that is based upon

22 any direct eye-witness to what transpired; that is to say, nobody told you

23 what they saw with their own eyes the actual process of the exhumations?

24 A. You can ask for yourself. The -- the corpses of Izbica were found

25 in other places. These are living -- live testimony. They were found in

1 Batajnica, Mitrovica.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Draga, we know that there may be information to

3 that effect, but what counsel is asking you is who told you about the

4 exhumation. And he wants to know if that was a person who actually saw

5 it. Now, can you think about that and think about whether someone who

6 actually saw it told you about it?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Gani saw that and then after two,

8 three days, I personally went there, because in the evening they left.

9 And then there -- and I saw it, that there was nobody left.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

11 MR. IVETIC:

12 Q. When you say "Gani," could you please provide us with some more

13 information about that. Who is this Gani?

14 A. He's from Izbica. He lives there.

15 Q. Is he a farmer? A civilian? What is he by occupation?

16 A. He is a farmer. He used to work as a kind of guard in the school.

17 I don't know if he is still there.

18 Q. Okay. Thank you for your testimony here today, sir?

19 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I'm completed with this witness.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

21 Mr. Ackerman.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman:

24 Q. Sir, my name is John Ackerman, along with Aleksander Aleksic, I

25 represent General Pavkovic in this proceeding. I have very, very few

1 questions I want to ask you. I'm going to try to make them as clear as I

2 can. If there is a time that you don't understand the question that I ask

3 you, will you let me know and I'll rephrase it in a way that helps you

4 understand it. Would that be okay?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And I hope the questions that I ask you can be answered very

7 directly and briefly. I think they can. I'm going to try to ask you

8 questions that can be answered that way. So please try to do that and

9 we'll get through this rapidly. Would that be okay?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right. During your testimony, at the very beginning this

12 morning, at page 7 you were talking about 25th of March, 1999, when there

13 was some shelling of your village. The question I have is this: You

14 never were able to see, to actually see with your eyes, the persons who

15 were doing the shelling, were you?

16 A. They were not very far when they started shelling, but the

17 shelling took place and the houses were burned immediately after that. It

18 is called Cetikas [phoen], upper neighbourhood. This is from where they

19 started shelling at, and then they shelled our neighbourhood.

20 Q. You see, that was what I was talking about when I spoke to you at

21 the beginning, that I would try to ask you questions that could be

22 answered easily. And obviously you've misunderstood my question. Because

23 I don't contest there was no shelling, which is apparently what you heard.

24 The only thing I want to know from you is, tell me yes or no: You could

25 not see the persons that were actually doing the shelling at the time the

1 shelling was happening, could you? Just yes or no.

2 A. No, but I heard the noise of the shelling. The shells fell in our

3 fields. How could one dare go and see the person who was shelling? They

4 would have done short work of you.

5 Q. Thank you. You gave a statement to the --

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, there is a -- there is an issue before

7 I go into this that I want to raise. I think I heard Your Honour say this

8 morning that the Prosecution gave you, the Chamber, the Judges, a copy of

9 this witness's statement; and I presume that you have it in English, and

10 if the Prosecution had no intent to admit it in evidence I'm wondering why

11 they gave it to you and what authority they have to give you documents

12 like this when they're not going to use them as exhibits.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I wondered exactly the same thing,

14 Mr. Ackerman, and when I discovered that the witness was to be live, I

15 immediately gave instructions that on all future occasions statements will

16 not be sent to us when it's intended to lead the witness live. And that

17 instructions has already been relayed. The same thing has already

18 happened with one other witness, who was K-62, and it's happened, I think,

19 because she certainly - and I'm not sure about this witness - but

20 certainly K-62 was presented to us initially as a 92 bis witness, and we

21 in fact granted authority for that evidence to be led that way. And we

22 may have done the same with this one. I haven't checked.

23 Maybe Ms. Carter can tell us if that's the position.

24 MS. CARTER: Respectfully, Your Honour, no, that is not the same

25 position here. A judgement call was made by the senior trial attorney,

1 who originally was handling this witness, that it appeared from reading

2 old transcripts --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: No, all you need to tell me is, this witness was

4 present -- there was never an application for his evidence under 92 bis.

5 MS. CARTER: Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: So it's happened in both circumstances. I've taken

7 steps to deal with it, and I hope you've judged from the remarks I made

8 earlier about this witness's statement, that I will have absolutely no

9 regard to it or the transcript in the Milosevic trial, except to the

10 extent they may be referred to in the course of his live evidence.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, that leads me to -- and thank you,

12 Your Honour, that explains it all.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't think the other Judges received the same.

14 I think I was the only person who -- who actually -- and certainly no

15 one -- no one has read anything except me.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: I really have almost no concern about that with

17 regard to this witness.

18 The next question that I have, though, is: Was this statement put

19 into the system under an exhibit number, the English version of this

20 statement? I know there's an Albanian version in there under an exhibit

21 number, but I don't know if there's an English number.

22 MS. CARTER: Based on our witness notification, it appears that

23 there was no exhibit number attached to this package.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: That's not the question, though, that's being

25 asked, Ms. Carter. The question is whether there's an English version in

1 the system as well as an Albanian one.

2 MS. CARTER: There is an English one. I can give the ERN number,

3 if desired.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: No, it's whether there's a P number, whether it's

5 actually in e-court.

6 MS. CARTER: P2244, I'm mistaken.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, and Your Honour, I've just looked at P2244,

8 and it's all Albanian, unless there's some -- unless I don't know how to

9 look at it. But there's a 13-page document that's Albanian.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: You can take it, Mr. Ackerman, that this particular

11 Bench will certainly not be going researching the e-court for statements

12 of witnesses who may have given evidence here just to check up on them or

13 for statements that are there that might never have been referred to and

14 might relate to people who never come here. It's the last thing we have

15 time to do, and you have our assurance it will not happen.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm getting where I'm trying to go by a very round

17 about way and I'm confusing you and everyone else. What I'm trying to

18 find out is, if that statement is in the system with an exhibit number,

19 then I have no interest in getting it into the system with an exhibit

20 number because I do want to have it admitted.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: I see.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: So that's where I'm trying to go.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you've got there. It's P2224, is it?

24 MR. ACKERMAN: And I want it admitted under that P2244 if the

25 English version of that transcript, of that statement is part of that

1 packet, and I can't find that it is. But There's a head nod over there

2 saying it is, and I'm wondering why, when I search for P2224, all I get is

3 a 13-page Albanian document.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: There's a measure of confidence, Mr. Ackerman,

5 which will be tested in a moment when you ask for it to come up on the

6 screen that's attached to the Albanian one, which is 2244, are the two

7 translations in B/C/S and English, and therefore if you call up that

8 number you should get an English version on the screen.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: I've just displayed my ignorance of the e-court

10 system, Your Honour; that that's the way it works.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Join the club. Now, just to be absolutely clear,

12 the number is not -- it is 2224. Is that correct?

13 MR. ACKERMAN: 2244, I think.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Carter, we need you again.

15 MS. CARTER: P2244.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Right.

17 Now, do you want it?

18 MR. ACKERMAN: I move its admission. And if you want me to wait

19 until after I have referred to it and used it, then I'll wait until then

20 to move the admission. It's up to you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it will be part of the record insofar as you

22 use it; that's our position in relation to exhibits. And that's a fairly

23 normal process with a statement, which I suspect you're going to use to

24 confront the witness.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: But I just want to use -- I don't want to spend a

1 lot of time in cross-examination confronting him on every item --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, and with us you don't need to do that. If

3 you want it admitted in its entirety and the Prosecution take no objection

4 to that, and as long as it's been identified properly, then the Bench

5 would have regard to it --

6 MR. ACKERMAN: That's what I want --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: -- for which you seek it.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: That's why I'm asking. Now, I'll go to that now.

9 Q. Sir, Mr. Draga, you spoke to a representative of the Office of the

10 Prosecutor and gave a statement in November of 1999. Do you recall doing

11 that?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. And would it be fair to say that your memory -- your detailed

14 memory of the events that you were describing would have been better seven

15 years ago, or nearly seven years ago, than it is today?

16 A. No, it wouldn't. I will always remember the massacre, even in my

17 sleep.

18 Q. Well, I know that. There are some things about that situation

19 that will remain vivid in your mind forever; that's for sure. But some of

20 the details surrounding what you call this massacre, I suggest to you that

21 you probably remembered a lot better seven years ago than you do today.

22 Isn't that a fair statement?

23 A. I remembered them seven years ago, and I remember them now. And I

24 will always remember them.

25 Q. All right. Seven years ago when you gave this statement, there

1 was a time at the end of that process when it was read to you in Albanian

2 so you could understand it, and you were asked that everything that was in

3 it was true and correct. Isn't that true?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you said that this statement was true to the best of your

6 knowledge and recollection, didn't you?

7 A. I said what I remembered.

8 Q. Well, I'm going to read you a witness acknowledgement, part of

9 one, that appears at the end of the statement that has your signature

10 there, I think --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: I wonder if this is, again, as productive. I'm

12 sure, Mr. Ackerman, if you have a problem, a technical problem, with this

13 that the Prosecution will stipulate to this being a statement completed by

14 the witness.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: I think there's no technical problem with that,

16 Your Honour, I just want to make sure that he -- I think I've gotten to

17 where I need to go with that.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: The problem, as I see it, with this whole thing -

19 and it might as well be addressed now - is witnesses who have been giving

20 evidence here often regard questions of this nature as a challenge to the

21 accuracy of what they've actually said and they don't focus as clearly as

22 we are used to doing on answering the specific point. Now, I'm not

23 suggesting that as a general comment about how they answer questions of

24 every nature; we need to review that later. But I think on this point

25 it's possible to draw conclusions already that what a witness speaking of

1 these events is likely to do here when faced with this sort of question is

2 retell the story and confirm it's accurate. And that's why I'm saying we

3 can perhaps short-circuit this in these cases. It may be different when

4 you're faced with a witness, a professional witness, in a different

5 context.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, that observation is certainly a

7 correct one, and I've made that observation myself. And it -- there is a

8 dilemma as to how to deal with it.

9 Q. Let me ask you this, sir: The English version of the statement

10 that I have in front of me that has your signature appearing at the bottom

11 of page 3 refers to the forces you saw that day during these events, the

12 27th and 28th of March, when you said you saw them advancing toward you on

13 foot and the day this event you called the massacre occurred. You said

14 this: "I saw all had the Serbian word 'milicija' on their uniform sleeves

15 near to the shoulder."

16 Now, you told us today that you really didn't notice their

17 uniforms, didn't see the uniforms they were wearing, but in your statement

18 you even identified a word that they had on their sleeves by their

19 shoulder, that all of them had. Can you explain that discrepancy? Can

20 you explain that difference between what you said seven years ago and what

21 you told the Judges here today?

22 A. I don't know what they wrote in the statement. What I said is

23 that they had police clothes, because as I told you I didn't dare to have

24 a good look at them. And it was the policemen that took us from there to

25 the area where we were executed. They had the milicija uniform, but

1 whether they were milicija or not, I don't know.

2 Q. In your testimony here today, I got confused by something you

3 said. It's on page 19. You told the questioner that a 105-year-old man

4 was killed. You were asked the name of that man, and you said it was:

5 Zade Draga, a woman. Was there just a misunderstanding? Did you always

6 say it was a woman or did you first say it was a man and then change it to

7 a woman when you were asked the name? I don't -- I just got confused by

8 that.

9 A. That person was a woman. Maybe a mistake was made. Maybe I was

10 misunderstood. I won't forget her; she lived in my neighbourhood.

11 Q. So it's your testimony that Zade Draga was a woman who lived in

12 your neighbourhood?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Who was 105 years old?

15 A. Yes, 105 years old.

16 Q. If I suggested to you that in a schedule submitted by the

17 Prosecutor to this Trial Chamber in the indictment of people that were

18 killed at Izbica, the -- there is a Zade Dragaj, 71-year-old male. Do you

19 know a Zade Dragaj who was a 71-year-old male?

20 A. No.

21 Q. So would it be your testimony that when the Prosecutor informed

22 the Chamber that Zade Dragaj, a 71-year-old male, was killed at Izbica,

23 that that was misinformation, that that was wrong?

24 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, respectfully, that would call for

25 speculation on behalf of this witness.

1 MR. ACKERMAN: It calls for no speculation at all.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: I think, Mr. Ackerman, it's unlikely to get a

3 helpful answer nevertheless. Might it not be better to approach this from

4 the point of view of gender and the -- what -- what's the likely gender of

5 the name?

6 MR. ACKERMAN: I think the point is made, Your Honour. I don't

7 think it needs any further elaboration, frankly.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

9 MR. ACKERMAN:

10 Q. You talked about a few KLA being in your village, and the Judge

11 even questioned you about it, before the shelling started, that there were

12 a few KLA in your village. I want to ask you just a couple of questions

13 about those KLA. Did the KLA that were in your village wear uniforms?

14 A. Yes, the ones that were with the KLA had uniforms.

15 Q. And did they carry weapons?

16 A. Some of them did. Some of them didn't carry weapons. They did

17 not have enough weapons.

18 Q. And did they sometimes wear civilian clothes?

19 A. I did not see them in civilian clothes.

20 Q. And what did they do as the Serb forces approached your village?

21 Did they fight them or what did they do?

22 A. Well, they left.

23 Q. If you know where they went, tell me; if you don't know where they

24 went, just say you don't know.

25 A. I don't know where they left. I was not with them.

1 Q. All right.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, that concludes my questions. Thank

3 you.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

5 Now, what -- what I understand you want the Chamber to do is to

6 admit the statement in its entirety in.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: I do, otherwise I would have to spend the next 30

8 minutes going through the parts of it that I would like to draw your

9 attention.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: And what you have in mind is in due course to

11 draw -- in submissions to draw the Chamber's attention to discrepancies?

12 MR. ACKERMAN: I think that's much more efficient, Your Honour,

13 unless you disagree.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well, the statement is admitted in full in

15 this case, albeit it was referred to only to a limited extent.

16 Mr. Bakrac.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will act accordingly

18 to what you have just agreed with Mr. Ackerman, and I will seize of this

19 opportunity to point out to some discrepancies at a later stage. All I,

20 therefore, have to do is pose a couple of questions of the witness, by

21 your leave.

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

23 Q. Mr. Draga, my name is Mihajlo Bakrac, one of the counsel for

24 Vladimir Lazarevic. At the beginning of your testimony you said you have

25 eight sons. Is that correct?

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. During the relevant period, as regarding this indictment, this

3 being 1998 and 1999, your sons, to a large extent, were already grown up

4 and they were able-bodied. They could serve the military. Is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. Apart from that, I believe you stated today that indeed there were

8 KLA members in your village. Is that true?

9 A. Yes, that's true.

10 Q. I'm interested in the following, Mr. Draga, did members of the KLA

11 ask of you or of any of your sons, since they were able-bodied, to join

12 them?

13 A. No, they did not join because they did not have weapons. If they

14 had had weapons, probably they would have joined.

15 Q. Therefore, Mr. Draga, your sons were asked to join, but they did

16 not since they didn't have any weapons. Is this the way we should

17 understand your testimony?

18 A. I don't know that they were asked to join. I know that they did

19 not have guns, so they just did not volunteer to go because they did not

20 have guns.

21 Q. Had they had rifles, they would have joined the KLA for sure. Is

22 that what you're saying?

23 JUDGE BONOMY: We've got that answer twice already, Mr. Bakrac.

24 Please move on. We have to develop some more efficient method of

25 cross-examining.

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I'll do my best, Your Honour.

2 Q. Mr. Draga, didn't you in your testimony a while ago say that in

3 1997 a weapon was taken by the police from you?

4 A. I said that I was taken to the police station, but I did not have

5 a gun to give them. I said it earlier; I'm saying it now again. If I had

6 the gun, they wouldn't beat me; they just would have taken the gun and

7 left me alone.

8 Q. Therefore, you did not have any weapon prior to 1998?

9 A. No, I didn't.

10 Q. Mr. Draga, you spoke about your participation in the burial of the

11 147 men -- people. Since you participated in their burial, I'd like to

12 know the following. Were these all elderly people or were there some

13 young people among them?

14 A. There were some young people. Hajriz Draga, for example, he was

15 40 years old. There were people from Klina and Skenderaj and other places

16 who were young.

17 Q. Mr. Draga, a bit earlier in your testimony you said that only

18 elderly men stayed behind and that the younger men had taken to the woods.

19 Which of the two is correct?

20 A. It is true that the majority of us were old people, but there

21 are -- there were some that were young. I've come here to tell the truth.

22 I'm not here to tell lies. I don't know why you are making me here appear

23 as if I'm telling lies.

24 Q. Mr. Draga, my job here is to ascertain the truth, and I wanted to

25 ask for your assistance. I am not clear as to which of the two is

1 correct. You said that only elderly people remained and that younger

2 people went to the woods, and then these elderly were shot dead. But now

3 we hear that among the 147 there were quite -- there were some younger

4 people as well. Were there any KLA fighters among the bodies?

5 A. There was no one from the KLA killed in the massacre of Izbica.

6 There were some teachers. I wouldn't call them elderly.

7 Q. Mr. Draga, we saw here that even some professors were members of

8 the KLA, so the mere fact that these people were teachers doesn't

9 necessarily tell us anything about their membership with the KLA.

10 A. The teacher was killed; he wasn't a member of the KLA. Had he

11 been a member of the KLA, he wouldn't have been there.

12 Q. Very well, Mr. Draga. I have only one question left. If I

13 understood you correctly, the exhumation for which you stated you heard

14 was carried out by the Serbian police and the MUP, that exhumation was

15 carried out at day-time and they were shelled. Is that correct?

16 A. I told you earlier and I am telling you again, when they wanted to

17 come and exhume the corpses, they first shelled the area and then went

18 into the site. And when the shelling started, we knew that they would do

19 that. It was exactly there that they took the corpses from.

20 Q. But first they shelled the location from which they took the

21 bodies. Is that what you're trying to say?

22 A. Yes, that's what I said, and I repeat it again and that is true.

23 Because everything they did, they shelled first and then they did what

24 they had to do.

25 Q. You needn't repeat.

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further

2 questions for this witness.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

4 Mr. Sepenuk.

5 MR. SEPENUK: No questions, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

7 Mr. Fila.

8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I have but one question, and that is

9 again -- is again concerning the notice. There were things that I learned

10 only after having entered the courtroom, and I strongly object to the OTP

11 continuing to do so in spite of your previous decision.

12 Cross-examination by Mr. Fila:

13 Q. My name is Toma Fila, and together with my learned friend

14 Mr. Petrovic I appear here on behalf of Mr. Sainovic. The only question I

15 have is regarding the exhumation that has just been discussed. Since I

16 wasn't able to prepare myself for the cross-examination, I wanted to

17 remind everyone here that among the material received by the OTP, we

18 received a report provided upon the request of the OTP, and the court in

19 Kosovo Mitrovica attempted to carry the exhumation discussed here.

20 Were you familiar with such a fact that the local court attempted

21 to exhume those bodies but was unsuccessful because the exhumation team

22 was shelled. Are you familiar with that?

23 A. No, I don't know anything about that. I don't know what they

24 would look for there because it was themselves that did it.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Fila should wait for the English

1 interpretation. Thank you.

2 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

3 Q. I just wanted to ask you whether you knew that the court attempted

4 to do that. That's all I wanted to know. Another question concerning

5 that. You said that after that you went to the place of the incident and

6 that you were able to establish that all the bodies were taken away. That

7 was approximately two months after they were buried, the 25th or the 28th

8 of March. Did I understand you correctly?

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, between the 25th of

10 March and the 28th of May.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Because at the place where those bodies had been buried at the

14 time when you went there, the bodies were no longer there. There was

15 nothing to indicate that some bodies had previously been buried there or

16 was there anything?

17 A. I know that before the 31st of March, there was no cemetery there.

18 And the whole meadow was used to bury those people who were killed there.

19 And the people collected all the bodies and buried them there, and I take

20 full responsibility when I say this.

21 Q. I'm not asking you that. What I am asking you is the following:

22 Once the shelling stopped and after the exhumation operation was

23 concluded, you said you went there and that you saw it with your own eyes,

24 that there was not a single buried body there?

25 A. Yes, I did say that and I can repeat it if you want.

1 Q. Very well. Then the next question is this: At that place where

2 there were no more corpses, did you see anything that would indicate that

3 there had been some bodies there? Did you find any traces? Anything?

4 A. We found clothes. We found a cut hand. The clothes of the people

5 who had been buried there were on the site.

6 Q. Therefore, a hand and some clothes?

7 A. Yes, yes. A hand and clothes, and I didn't want to look any

8 further. It was gruesome.

9 Q. I will conclude with this topic, but I do have another question.

10 Do you have any knowledge of the Serbian language? Can you understand it

11 at all?

12 A. No, no, I don't understand it.

13 Q. Is that all?

14 A. No, I don't.

15 Q. When you served your military term, what was the main language

16 used?

17 A. In Srpska, in Serbian.

18 Q. But now you tell us you don't understand any Serbian. Have you

19 forgotten it in the meantime?

20 A. Well, at that time I did not know the language very well. It was

21 in the 1960s, and I forgot everything I had learned even then.

22 Q. If I say "good morning" or "good afternoon," do you know what it

23 means in Serbian, "dobar dan"? Do you have at least some basics? Good

24 afternoon? Bye?

25 A. No, I've forgotten them.

1 Q. Well, then, just one last question. In which language did the

2 policemen address you when he told you to split into two groups and in

3 which language did he curse your mothers, since you say you don't

4 understand Serbian? That would be my last question. Thank you.

5 A. He was cursing us in Serbian.

6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] In our jurisdiction, Your Honour,

7 attorneys cannot comment; therefore, I need to conclude.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: They shouldn't be commenting in this jurisdiction

9 either, Mr. Fila. Thank you.

10 Mr. O'Sullivan.

11 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

13 Ms. Carter.

14 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, just one brief point.

15 Re-examination by Ms. Carter:

16 Q. Mr. Draga, you indicated that there was a gentleman by the name of

17 Shaban Draga who was present during the burials. Is that correct?

18 A. No. I said earlier that Shaban Draga was not there at the burial

19 site. I only told you that I know Shaban Draga as a person, but not that

20 he was there at the burial.

21 Q. And the one and only Shaban Draga that you know is an older man,

22 not somebody in his 20s. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, he is an elderly person. I don't know how old he is

24 exactly.

25 Q. And the allusion I anticipate being drawn in -- with regards to

1 this gentleman is: Is he now or was he ever a member of the KLA?

2 A. I don't know.

3 [Prosecution counsel confer]

4 MS. CARTER:

5 Q. Sir, I'd also like to ask you a little bit about your statement

6 that you gave to the Office of the Prosecution. At the time that your

7 statement was taken as well as the time that you were going through the 92

8 bis procedures, was your statement read out to you in order for you to

9 understand what was contained in it?

10 A. Yes, it was read back to me.

11 Q. At the time that it was read out to you, did they take it

12 paragraph by paragraph, asking you questions about individual pieces? Or

13 were you read an entire statement all in one go and then asked to comment

14 in its entirety?

15 A. No, they read the whole statement at one go.

16 Q. All right. If there are small discrepancies within the statement,

17 is that a function of -- that you were read an entire statement all at

18 once and did not understand that there were discrepancies there, or were

19 you making notes for yourself? What did you do in order to do the

20 proofing procedure?

21 MR. ACKERMAN: That's excessively leading.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Not only is it excessively leading, it's

23 argumentative, it's a submission, it's quite inappropriate at this stage

24 in the examination of the witness, so I sustain that objection.

25 MS. CARTER: Then I have nothing further, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 Questioned by the Court:

4 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Mr. Mustafa, I have a question for you. You said

5 that the people who gave money to those who were asking for it were

6 spared. You did not have any money, you did not give any money. How did

7 they spare you then? This is my first question. Or how did you save

8 yourself then?

9 A. Well, I think it was God that saved me and Hajriz Draga that fell

10 on me, because even other people they could see were still alive, they

11 were killed. There were people who paid money and they were still killed.

12 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Before burying of the bodies, was any ritual

13 performed or they were just inserted in holes or depressions or graves?

14 You said each was put in a different grave. That must have taken a long

15 time. Can you please comment on all what I am saying.

16 A. It was a good area. The field was soft soil, so it was easy for

17 us to dig the graves. People were happy to give them a proper burial in

18 those conditions.

19 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Thank you.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Draga, that concludes -- that completes

22 your evidence. Thank you for coming again to the Tribunal to give it.

23 You are now free to leave.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you very much.

25 [The witness withdrew]

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, in connection with the last part of

3 the re-direct examination of the Prosecutor, I would respectfully refer

4 Your Honours to the last page of the statement that's now in evidence as

5 P2244, the interpreter certification, and would ask the Prosecution if it

6 is now their position that the interpreter certification is incorrect and

7 was wrongly certified?

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Carter?

9 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, we're taking no issue with the

10 interpreter's certification on the statement, but rather the fact that

11 when somebody is read eight pages all at one time and then asked about

12 minor details within it, that's going to be a little bit difficult. That

13 was the point of the examination, not to cause any damage to the

14 interpretation itself.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it's going to be a matter of some debate

16 where the discrepancies are minor or not, and that's for a later stage.

17 I think you have the basic position, Mr. Ackerman, that the

18 Prosecution adhere to that as a statement that was taken as it is

19 presented.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, I -- the next thing I wonder

21 after what was just told you is: Is this a standard procedure that's used

22 in the taking of these statements? Is no care taken to make sure that the

23 witness understands what the statement says? That they speed through it,

24 reading it, and say: Sign it. If that's what they do, then we shouldn't

25 have any statements admitted at all in this case because they have no

1 reliability at all, period. If they do it more carefully, then they do it

2 more carefully, but I think now we need to know how they do this. Is

3 there a procedure or do they just speed through these translations with no

4 care?

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the weakness of your submission on that

6 submission is that the Prosecution have not relied on this statement, and

7 they have obviously done that in relation to one particular statement for

8 their own reasons, and I think we can all see that these may well have

9 been sound reasons. It doesn't follow for one minute that that undermines

10 every other statement that's led. And as you know you've been given the

11 opportunity and will be given the opportunity to cross-examine every

12 witness whose evidence is provided by statement so far. There may yet be

13 issues on which it's not necessary for a witness to attend here, that

14 remains to be seen, but so far we have decided they all should. In these

15 circumstances, their statement can be challenged.

16 It's also open to you to make inquiry -- further inquiry of the

17 Prosecution, if you wish to, to go into this matter in more detail and

18 investigate it. And that's a matter you're entirely free to raise with

19 the Prosecution. But it's not something clearly that we can take any

20 stand on in the light of the presentation of the evidence -- the statement

21 of one witness on which there may be substantial criticism.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, if this interpreter, Beznik

23 Sokali, is available in any way, I think either the Court or I should

24 inquire of her, if that's exactly what she did, was read it through in

25 such speed that the person couldn't understand what she was saying.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: That's a matter I encourage you to take up direct.

2 That's not a matter for us at this point.

3 Now the next witness, Ms. Carter, is -- or Mr. Hannis is -- can

4 you give us an indication of how long it's anticipated that this witness

5 will take?

6 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I had estimated that it might take me 45

7 minutes on direct. I don't know if you're aware, Your Honour, we proposed

8 to proceed with this witness as a 92 bis (D) using her transcript from the

9 Milosevic testimony and also a recently prepared 89(F) statement, rather

10 than the 92 bis package that was previously submitted. Upon proofing her

11 yesterday, we discovered that -- it appeared to me to be somewhat

12 confusing, the chronology in that written statement, so we prepared a new

13 statement.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: The previous testimony, did that incorporate the

15 statement she had previously given?

16 MR. HANNIS: It does, Your Honour. We have furnished the Defence

17 a track-changes version, showing where we have made changes, where there

18 are some new items, and in other places where material has just been

19 shifted from one paragraph to another to make the chronology read in

20 sequence.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: But when you tender the transcript, so far you've

22 told me that that automatically incorporates any exhibit, and in relation

23 to these transcripts that has generally been the statement that the

24 witness was making which was a previous 92 bis statement. Now, are you

25 saying that in this case we have to -- or in fact, was she previously a 92

1 bis witness?

2 MR. HANNIS: A 92 bis (D), Your Honour.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, but in the -- Milosevic, was she -- yeah,

4 she was. She was a 92 bis witness in Milosevic.

5 MR. HANNIS: Correct.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: So you would say if you were following the practice

7 you've followed so far that when you tender her transcript that

8 automatically brings in her statement?

9 MR. HANNIS: Well, you're --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: You're now telling me you don't want the

11 statement?

12 MR. HANNIS: Not in this case; however, Your Honour, this -- we

13 have -- the transcript has one Exhibit Number, P2226, or 2260. I'm sorry,

14 2260, and the written statements that were -- the 92 bis (B) package in

15 Milosevic has the number 2259. We're proposing to tender with this

16 witness 2260, which is the testimony, not tender 2259, but rather tender a

17 new exhibit, the 89(F) statement that she signed this morning to be given

18 a number at this time.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: And so the accused are only now receiving this

20 89(F) statement, are they?

21 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. Last night we advised them that

22 this was my intention, to proceed this way, when we were discussing the

23 order of witnesses, whether she would be next or whether the doctor from

24 this municipality would be next. It appeared there was a preference among

25 everyone to have her appear next. I expressed my difficulty and my

1 dilemma with the 48-hour rule regarding 89(F) statements, and the Defence

2 indicated to me, under the circumstances, they were willing to give me a

3 one-time agreement to proceed in that fashion. And, Your Honour, given

4 the hour that we're at and my estimated time on direct, it's likely that

5 any cross-examination may not begin until Monday.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, is this a witness who is likely to be

7 cross-examined at length? Does any have an idea that this may take some

8 time?

9 Mr. Visnjic.

10 MR. VISNJIC: Yes, Your Honour, I think it would take some time.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Well, we'll adjourn now and we'll

12 resume at 1.00.

13 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

14 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Ms. Xhafa.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you please make the solemn declaration by

20 reading aloud the document which will now be placed before you.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

22 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23 WITNESS: FEDRIJE XHAFA

24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Please be seated, and please make yourself

1 comfortable before we begin.

2 Now, we do have before us in writing a statement of things you

3 have to tell the Tribunal. We also have a copy of what you said when you

4 gave evidence before in another trial here. So we already know a great

5 deal about what you can say of the events that we are dealing with. The

6 purpose of the hearing today is to allow the counsel who represent the

7 Prosecution and the various accused to ask you additional questions, and

8 hopefully these will be very specific questions. So please do your best

9 to listen carefully to the question asked and to answer the particular

10 question each time. And the first person to ask you questions will be on

11 behalf of the Prosecution, Mr. Hannis.

12 Mr. Hannis.

13 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. As I indicated before the

14 break, we intend to proceed with this witness as a combination of a 92 bis

15 (D) witness, her transcript which is 2260, 6-0, and an 89(F) statement

16 which was signed today and does not yet have an exhibit number. We have

17 English and B/C/S versions at this time which have been provided to

18 Defence counsel. And to the Court, I believe you have the English copies.

19 An Albanian translation has been requested but not received yet, and we

20 would ask that that statement be given a number.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: So that will be the next Prosecution number, which

22 is, Mr. Hannis?

23 MR. HANNIS: I understand that 2274, 2274.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, can the court deputy confirm that?

25 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honour.

1 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. And I would indicate, Your Honours, that

2 the evidence of this witness refers primarily to paragraph 72 (M), as in

3 Michael, paragraph 73 regarding forcible transfer, paragraph 75 (I), and

4 paragraph 76 and 77.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

6 Examination by Mr. Hannis:

7 Q. Could you state your full name for us?

8 A. My name is Fedrije Xhafa.

9 Q. And, Ms. Xhafa, I understand from your statement that in 1999 you

10 were living in the municipality of Vushtrri or Vucitrn. Can you tell us

11 the name of your village?

12 A. Lower Saracak.

13 Q. And about how big was your village.

14 A. It has approximately 80 households.

15 Q. Does it have a different name now than it did in 1999?

16 A. Yes. Now we call it Mans i Ulet [phoen], lower Mans.

17 Q. Ms. Xhafa, before coming to court today to testify, earlier this

18 week did you have a chance to meet with representatives from my office to

19 go over your prior written statements in this case?

20 A. This week, yes.

21 Q. And in the course of doing that, did you bring to the attention of

22 my office some -- some details that you wanted to add and some changes

23 that you felt should be made to those written statements?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honour, at this time, if I could hand a

1 hard copy of Exhibit 2274, an English version, to the witness. I just

2 want to ask her a couple of questions about that.

3 Q. Ms. Xhafa, could you -- I realise that document is in English. Do

4 you speak and understand any English?

5 A. I speak a little. I understand a little.

6 Q. Could you look at that document and look at each page and see if

7 you recognise what it is, even though it is in English.

8 A. I will.

9 Q. Have you had a chance to look at what's in handwriting on each of

10 those pages?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. Can you tell us what that is then based on your review?

13 A. That's my signature after making some changes.

14 Q. And earlier this morning, was that -- was that statement regarding

15 the changes read back to you in Albanian by an interpreter?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And were you satisfied that what was read out to you accurately

18 reflected the changes that you wanted made to your prior statement?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And does that then accurately reflect to the best of your

21 knowledge and memory the truth about the events you describe in that

22 statement?

23 A. Yes, it reflects them accurately.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I would tender 2274 at this time.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

2 MR. HANNIS:

3 Q. And, Ms. Xhafa, as the Judge indicated, they do have this written

4 document plus your prior testimony in the Milosevic case, so I'll try to

5 go quickly through your statement and ask you about a few specific points.

6 In paragraph 2 of that statement, Ms. Xhafa, you describe how on

7 the 28th of March, 1999, you and your family left your home because Serb

8 forces had begun to burn houses in your village. Where did you go from

9 your village?

10 A. From our village we went on the 28th of March, and it was a sunny

11 day -- it was Sunday. We went to Dumnica village. There I stayed one

12 day. On the next day, we set out from Dumnica to Samodreza, where I

13 stayed for a very brief time. And then we continued our way until we

14 arrived at Vesekovc village.

15 Q. The day you left on the 28th, when you say Serb forces were

16 beginning to burn houses, did you actually see them doing that yourself?

17 A. Yes, I did. They started to set fire to all the houses in upper

18 Saracak, and therefore all the villagers began to leave the village. We,

19 too, joined them. It was very dangerous to remain in the village.

20 Q. Could you describe anything about the forces that were doing this

21 in terms of uniform or equipment or weapons, from what you can see?

22 A. Like all the others, my village started -- my village started to

23 be emptied of its population. We had Serbian neighbours, and they left

24 the village and went to Drenakovc [phoen] village. And they fired with

25 heavy weapons. I don't know what kind of weapons they were, we weren't

1 told. So we began to be afraid. As I said, the houses also began to be

2 set on fire. That's why we left.

3 Q. But were you able to see the persons who were doing this and see

4 what kind of uniforms they were wearing, if any?

5 A. No. They were very far away from us.

6 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, in paragraph 4 of your statement, you say

7 that around the 30th of April your family travelled from Vesekovc to

8 Sllakoc. Am I pronouncing that close to right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you spent two nights there, and you were informed by KLA

11 fighters that Serb forces were coming in your direction from the north,

12 and then you and your family joined a large convoy of people moving

13 towards Vushtrri or Vucitrn. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. Then further on in paragraphs 5 to 9 you describe what happened on

16 the 2nd of May while you were in the convoy. And I think you describe

17 four different times that different Serb forces, I think in most cases

18 they were described as policemen, approached your convoy and had dealings

19 with your family, including the last encounter [Realtime transcript read

20 in error, "country"] in which your brother, Jetish, was shot and your

21 father was shot and killed. Is that correct?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. What was your father's name and how old was he at the time?

24 A. Miran, and he was 71 years old.

25 Q. And your brother, Jetish, how old was he?

1 A. At the time he was 45 years, I think.

2 Q. Did he actually survive that shooting?

3 A. Yes, he did.

4 Q. But at the time, you were not aware of that?

5 A. No. We thought he was dead and continued on our way.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me just a second, Mr. Hannis.

7 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. -- Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, line 20 on page 80, what Mr. Hannis

10 said was "the last encounter" and not "the last country." In the normal

11 course of things, I should point that out.

12 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, thanks for clarifying that.

14 MR. HANNIS:

15 Q. When and how did you discover that your brother had survived that

16 shooting?

17 A. We realised that on the 7th of May when some acquaintances of ours

18 came to Kciq village and they told someone from there that village. I

19 think it was a woman of some 30 years old. I don't remember her name.

20 She came to the house we were staying in and she told us that he was

21 alive.

22 Q. When was the next time you saw him?

23 A. After the war was over. It was the 16th of June, I think.

24 Q. Did he confirm to you at that time what had happened to your

25 father, whether or not he had survived as well?

1 A. He didn't know -- we didn't tell him for a while. He thought he

2 was in Albania together with the mother. Then after a week or so, we told

3 him the truth, namely that the father was dead.

4 Q. Now, you tell us in your statement after -- after that happened,

5 the policemen told you to drive on down the road. Your family went down

6 the road a little ways, and then eventually you abandoned your tractor and

7 your belongings. Why did you do that? Why did you leave things behind?

8 A. We were obliged to do that, because if we remained in the tractor

9 we felt great risk because police would come up to the people staying on

10 the tractors and beat them. Someone was passing by told us, it's better

11 for us to leave than remain in the tractor. That's why we did.

12 Q. You then go on in your statement to tell us how you made your way

13 to the outskirts of Vushtrri, where you were directed by police to go to

14 what's described as an agricultural co-op building, and you spent the

15 night there. Is that accurate?

16 A. Yes, that's accurate.

17 Q. Your statement says: The next morning the men between the ages of

18 15 and 60 were separated and taken off to prison, that those people who

19 had tractors were told to go to Albania, and the rest of you were directed

20 to go to -- can you help me with the name of the town where you were told

21 to go?

22 A. Those were taken -- the men were taken to [Realtime transcript

23 read in error, "from"] the prison of Smrekonica, whereas we, the rest,

24 were directed to go to Smrekonic or Kciq village.

25 Q. And what were you told to do when you got there?

1 A. We stayed there in a house, in Kciq.

2 Q. And when the -- when the -- the war ended, the fighting ended and

3 NATO came, did you return to your original home?

4 A. We returned after two weeks.

5 Q. What condition was it in?

6 A. The house was burned down, and we had to put up a tent where we

7 stayed in the courtyard of the house.

8 Q. Thank you. I would like next to show you an exhibit. It's P38.

9 This is a map that will come up on your computer screen in a moment, and

10 when it does I would like to ask the usher to help hand you an electronic

11 pen that's attached to the monitor.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, there's another transcript problem

13 that I think should be pointed out.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Line 20 -- page 82, line 23, the witness didn't say

16 the men were taken from the prison, she said they were taken to the

17 prison.

18 MR. HANNIS: I agree. Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

20 MR. HANNIS:

21 Q. Now, do you have the map on the screen in front of you, ma'am?

22 MR. HANNIS: And if we could zoom in a bit on the upper half or

23 the upper two-thirds. We're going to try to make it a little more bigger

24 so you may be able to read it.

25 Q. Is it bigger for you yet?

1 A. Yeah, it's okay.

2 Q. Okay. My screen is a little slower. Are you able to see your

3 home village on that map?

4 A. Yes, I can see that.

5 Q. Could you -- could you draw a small circle around it and put a

6 number 1 inside the circle?

7 A. [Marks].

8 Q. But -- okay. Thank you. All right. And you mentioned you went

9 first to Dumnica. I don't know that that appears on the map here, but you

10 went then after that to Samodreza. Could you draw a circle around

11 Samodreza and put the number 2 inside it.

12 A. I can't Dumnica here, but I can see Samodreza.

13 Q. Could you draw the circle around Samodreza and put a number 2 by

14 it.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And I don't know if you can see Vesekovc on the map that's in

17 front of you.

18 A. I can't see it.

19 Q. All right. Can you show us -- can you show us where the convoy

20 was at the time your father and brother were shot? Do you know what two

21 towns it was between at that time on the 2nd of May?

22 A. We were between Studime i Eperme and Studime i Poshtme, somewhere

23 around here.

24 Q. If you would write the number 3 there and draw a circle around

25 it.

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. Okay. And if you could indicate on this map as well where the --

3 the prison was or the town you referred to as the prison and where you

4 went to register your new residence. I think it's Smrekonica?

5 A. Yes, the prison was in Smrekonica, and it is here.

6 Q. Could you put the number 4 inside that circle.

7 A. [Marks].

8 Q. Thank you.

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. LUKIC: Excuse me.

11 MR. HANNIS: I see Mr. Lukic is up, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

13 MR. LUKIC: I would kindly ask my learned friend to point out in

14 the statement of this witness where she mentioned the prison she

15 registered. I think that in the statement it says dispensary or a

16 hospital mentioned.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: The evidence has been that men were taken off to a

18 prison.

19 MR. HANNIS: That's correct. I didn't mean that she went to a

20 prison.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: And the women, as you say, Mr. Lukic, went to a

22 place in Smrekonica to register.

23 MR. HANNIS: That's correct, that's in paragraph 13.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Whether -- yes. If you look at paragraph 11, in

25 the fourth line you'll see: "I later learned that all the men were taken

1 to Smrekonica prison."

2 MR. HANNIS:

3 Q. And finally, one more for me, if you would, Ms. Xhafa. Could you

4 write the number 5 and draw a circle around Dobar Luka, where you say you

5 stayed.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. HANNIS: Could we take a screen shot of that and give that the

9 next IC exhibit number.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Next IC exhibit number will be IC20.

12 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

13 Q. Now, Ms. Xhafa, in Dobar Luka, in what house were you and your

14 family staying at? I mean, did you know who lived in that house before

15 you?

16 A. Yes. It was the house of Sadi Shala, an inhabitant of that

17 village.

18 Q. Do you know what the ethnicity of that village was before the

19 fighting started in March of 1999?

20 A. They were Albanian. All of them were Albanian.

21 Q. Do you know what had happened to the people who had been living in

22 the village before you came to stay there?

23 A. Yes. Some people had remained in the village, and they told us

24 that the people had been sent to Albania. They had crossed the border.

25 They were in Albania.

1 MR. HANNIS: May I have just a moment, Your Honour.

2 [Prosecution counsel confer]

3 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. I have no further questions for the

4 witness at this time.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you clarify one thing for me, Mr. Hannis?

6 MR. HANNIS: Certainly.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Attached to the 89(F) statement that I've been

8 given are certain documents.

9 MR. HANNIS: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour. I believe you have

10 a document that is the registration form in Albanian, an original form

11 with handwriting on it, an English translation of the blank form, and you

12 also have what purports to be photographs of various camouflage types

13 which is extremely well camouflaged because all you can see are four black

14 squares.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: That's correct.

16 MR. HANNIS: Those are intended to be attached, Your Honour. They

17 were part of -- they were part of the 92 bis statement that was part of

18 her transcript. And the camouflage photos, we are attempting to locate

19 the original colour versions that were introduced, I believe, as Exhibit

20 18 in the Milosevic trial, but all we've been able to obtain anywhere from

21 the registry and from our own files has been a copy just like that one.

22 We are making our best efforts to find a colour version so it will make

23 some sense to everybody.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

25 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.

2 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes. We'll proceed in this order:

3 General Ojdanic, General Pavkovic, General Lazarevic, Mr. Sainovic,

4 Mr. Milutinovic, and General Lukic.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

6 Mr. Visnjic.

7 MR. VISNJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Cross-examination by Mr. Visnjic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mrs. Xhafa, I'm Tomislav Visnjic,

10 representing General Ojdanic. I will be putting some questions to you.

11 Mrs. Xhafa, you gave statements to the OTP investigators in 2001,

12 in 2002, and just immediately prior to coming here about the events that

13 you gave evidence about here today. My question is: Did you also give a

14 statement to someone else, to another organ, including authorities about

15 these events, the murder of your father and the wounding of your brother?

16 A. No, I didn't give any statements to anybody else.

17 Q. Do you know that in the territory of your municipality, there is a

18 war crimes commission, an Albanian commission?

19 A. Yes, I know.

20 Q. You did not talk to them about these events, did you?

21 A. No, I did not have the time, to tell you the truth, because I work

22 full-time. So I did not meet them.

23 Q. Do you know whether any members of your family perhaps talked to

24 any authorities about these events?

25 A. Perhaps. I have not asked anyone about this.

1 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Xhafa. Now, please tell me, Mrs. Xhafa --

2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Actually, I would like to ask to

3 have IC20 displayed in e-court, please.

4 Q. This is the map, Mrs. Xhafa, the one that you saw just a bit ago,

5 and the one on which you marked certain locations. We can't see it on

6 this map, but based on what I understood in your evidence you joined the

7 convoy in a location called Slakovce. Am I right?

8 A. We started from Sllakoc, and then we entered the village of

9 Studime. It was at the edge of Studime i Eperme.

10 Q. Thank you. Now, can you tell me, please, we can't see Slakovce on

11 this map, but how far is it from Gornje Studime --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

13 MR. HANNIS: [Microphone not activated].

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Hannis.

15 MR. HANNIS: If we showed P38 without the exhibit without being

16 blown up, I think we may be able to see more, if that will assist

17 counsel.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.

19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] That's fine, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: It's up to you.

21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] That's fine. I was going to prepare

22 a map for the witness for Monday. I didn't know that this particular copy

23 would be used, but we can try and proceed with this one. What did

24 Mr. Hannis say, I think he said --

25 JUDGE BONOMY: You can get away from the IC one and go back to P38

1 and we get it to a reasonable size for the witness to identify the places.

2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] That's fine.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, let's blow it up a bit.

4 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] One more time, please, and that

5 should be sufficient.

6 Q. Mrs. Xhafa, can you see Slakovce on the map?

7 A. Yes, I can.

8 Q. Tell me, please, in your view, how far is Slakovce from Gornja

9 Sudimlja, do you have any idea about the distance?

10 A. I don't know, to tell you the truth. We went from Sllakoc to

11 Ceceli first, but then from Ceceli we went to the village of Sudimlja.

12 From Ceceli to Sudimlja I think it was about 7 kilometres.

13 Q. So you went from Slakovce to Ceceli first, and then from there to

14 Sudimlja. Am I right?

15 A. There was a road between Sllakoc and Ceceli. We passed through a

16 hilly area, and then went to Studime. I think that the whole route from

17 Sllakoc to Ceceli to Studime i Eperme was about 7 kilometres.

18 Q. Very well. You said that in the convoy, in your view, there were

19 approximately 50.000 people; that was your assessment I assume, right?

20 A. That's what I thought. 30.000, 50.000. This is an approximate

21 number, of course.

22 Q. Yes, but at any rate it was a column which was continuous

23 basically from Slakovce to as far in front of you as you could see,

24 correct?

25 A. Yes. It was a very long column, and in the hill of Studime, I had

1 the opportunity to have a look. I could see from Studime i Eperme to

2 Studime i Ulet, the lower Studime, I could see the people walking, some of

3 them on tractors and cars. It was a very long column.

4 Q. That's the column that you saw in front of you, correct?

5 A. Yes, yes, but there were people behind us as well.

6 Q. All right. I'd like to clarify this. I suppose that this is some

7 sort of a misunderstanding, but in the Milosevic transcript on page 4148,

8 there is something that I'd like to clarify. Based on your best

9 recollection, when did you join the column in Slakovce?

10 A. I don't understand the question. Could you repeat that, please.

11 Q. I will go back. You testified in the Milosevic case, at which

12 time you said that you didn't join the column immediately but that rather

13 you waited for some time. And then later in the day you joined the column

14 in Slakovce. Could you please tell us, what time of the day was it when

15 you and your family joined the column?

16 A. It was the 2nd of May, in the afternoon. That was the day when we

17 joined the column, and there were so many people in that column.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: The question you're being asked is: What time in

19 that day did you join the column?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was in the afternoon, probably

21 about 1.00 or 2.00 p.m.

22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. And when did you arrive in Sudimlja, what time it was?

24 A. At 4.00 p.m., in the afternoon of course.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Visnjic, if you want to complete this

1 matter, please do, and then we'll break.

2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I have three more questions.

3 I don't think that I will overstep the regular hours.

4 Q. When discussing the place where you stopped, where you arrived, as

5 you said, at about 4.00, that is actually a location between Gornja and

6 Donja Sudimlja, correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Just one more question for today. Tell me, please, in the

9 trailer -- this has to do with paragraph 4 of your statement. In the

10 trailer which was attached to the tractor, you said that your entire

11 family was in that tractor. I will ask you only about the males in your

12 family and I will read out the names to make sure I understood it well.

13 In addition to your father who was with you, there was also brothers

14 Jetish, Fazil, and Fazil's three sons, Ismet, who at the time had -- was

15 20 years old; Lavdim, who was 13; and Mirsad, who was 16 at the time?

16 A. No, no, you're wrong. On the tractor were these people: Jetish,

17 my father, Ismet, Lavdim. Mirsad and Fazil were walking. Ismet, Mirsad,

18 and Lavdim are Jetish's sons.

19 Q. So Mirsad and Fazli walked next to tractor, but they were with

20 you, correct?

21 A. Fazli was walking, he was on foot. They left earlier and they

22 were on foot. We left a little bit later, an we took the tractor. That's

23 what the police told us to do.

24 Q. Did you meet them in Donja Sudimlja, where you stopped to rest, as

25 you stated in your statement given on the 2nd of May, 2000?

1 A. Yes, we met them. We met Mirsad and Fazli, and we continued on

2 our way all together on foot, up to Vushtrri.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I explored this

5 sufficiently for the time being.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Visnjic.

7 Now, Ms. Xhafa, we have to conclude the proceedings for today at

8 this time. We will have to resume again on Monday. Your evidence will

9 continue then. That will be at 9.00 on Monday. You should be back here

10 in time to start giving evidence again at 9.00. Meanwhile, it's very

11 important that over the weekend you do not discuss your evidence with

12 anyone at all, anyone, and that means you don't discuss either the

13 evidence you have already given or the evidence you may yet give in the

14 case. You can talk of anything else, but please, please avoid talking

15 about the evidence. Okay?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: And we will see you again at 9.00 on Monday

18 morning.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

20 to be reconvened on Monday, the 28th day of

21 August, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.

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