1 Tuesday, 12 September 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 WITNESS: HAZBI LOKU [Resumed]

7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Loku.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Your evidence will now continue. I remind you that

11 the solemn declaration to tell the truth which you gave at the beginning

12 of your evidence continues to apply to that evidence today.

13 Mr. Visnjic.

14 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Cross-examination by Mr. Visnjic: [Continued]

16 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Loku. Yesterday, at the end

17 of the day, we were looking at some photographs of a house for which you

18 said you couldn't recognise as being one of the houses in the village of

19 Kotlina. I am about to show you some other photographs, and I would

20 kindly ask you to try and carry out the same exercise to be -- to see

21 whether you are able to recognise anything.

22 Could we please show 3D74 to the witness, page 6. To make it

23 easier, perhaps the usher could also give the hard copy to the witness so

24 that he could get his bearing more easily.

25 I still don't see this in e-court. 3D74, page 6 of the document.

1 Could you please put on the version in Serbian since the photographs are

2 in that version.

3 Your Honour, could I nevertheless try and move on with the witness

4 without waiting for e-court? The witness has hard copies, and depending

5 on his answer, we'll see whether I can continue after that, and in the

6 meantime hopefully we'll get the picture. Thank you.

7 Mr. Loku, the pages you were given from the document, this being

8 pages 6, 7, 8, and 9 of Exhibit 3D74, I'll ask you this way: On the

9 photographs in front of you, allegedly we can see two pits on some of the

10 photographs, and those are allegedly the two pits you mentioned, as well

11 as the bodies of some people who were found dead there. I think this is

12 page 6 of this document.

13 If you look at the third photograph from the top, or, rather, the

14 photograph at the bottom of the page, you can see a large hole, a pit.

15 Does this hole correspond to what you have in mind when you spoke about

16 the two pits or the wells, depending on whichever term we wish to use?

17 A. In the photo, you can see that there is a hole, a pit, but it

18 didn't resemble those that are in the village at the mountain, because

19 here I can see only the pit, or pits. I see some stairs. The photos seem

20 rather old. I don't know what kind of photos these are. They are not

21 clear, and they do not resemble the holes I mentioned earlier.

22 Q. Thank you. I believe you know what those pits look like. Am I

23 correct?

24 A. I know the holes in the village, what they looked like, what they

25 were like before. The picture I see here at number 9 seems that there is

1 water at the bottom of the hole. The holes I mentioned were dry, because

2 they were dug by a villager who was searching for water, but he failed to

3 find any water.

4 On the basis of this photo, it's not like the one I mentioned

5 because the place where the holes were is a mountainous area full of

6 stones. You can see stones amid the earth, whereas these pits you are

7 showing me seem smooth. They do not resemble the ones in our village.

8 Q. And you know that because you had previously went -- gone to those

9 pits. Am I correct?

10 A. No. I didn't go there before that incident, but afterwards I went

11 there, and I can say that there are stones. Wherever you can dig for

12 water, you can run into stones.

13 Q. Mr. Loku, is it your testimony now that before the event you never

14 went up to those pits which were but 200 metres away from your school?

15 A. I said this, yes. And I'm telling you there was no reason for me

16 to go there. It was that villager who was looking for water who dug that

17 place. I didn't have any reasons to go there.

18 Q. Did I understand your statement and your particulars well if I

19 concluded that you have been born and raised and that you spent most of

20 your life in the village of Kotlina, apart from the few recent years in

21 your life?

22 A. Yes, that's correct. I was born and brought up in the village of

23 Kotline.

24 Q. And you are testifying here today that up until after the event

25 you never went up to the pits. Am I reading your testimony correctly? If

1 this is so indeed, we can move on to another topic.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: That question has been asked and answered. Please

3 move on.

4 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show page 1 of the

5 document to the witness, please.

6 Q. Mr. Loku, from the place where you were, could you see the on-site

7 investigation team of the Ministry of the Interior and the court of

8 Urosevac who were there carrying out the investigation and taking

9 photographs of certain spots in the village of Kotlina?

10 A. From the place I was from which I observed the event of the 24th

11 of March, I didn't see any other persons than those dressed in military

12 and police uniforms.

13 Q. Mr. Loku, you couldn't recognise the house which is a part of the

14 file. You are claiming that the pits on these photographs do not

15 correspond to the pits which were -- which are just above your village. I

16 presume the captions under the photographs that are in front you on

17 pages 6, 7, and 8 also do not reflect the situation as you see it. Am I

18 right in concluding that?

19 A. I cannot confirm that these holes you are showing me are the ones

20 that were in Kotline.

21 Q. But you were quite positive when you said that the house shown on

22 the photograph shown to you yesterday was not a house from your village,

23 and you also said that the weapons and the equipment that had been

24 found -- or, rather, that it isn't possible that this was in your

25 village. Do you agree with me?

1 A. I already told you even yesterday that no armaments were found in

2 any place in my village and that the houses showed me yesterday doesn't

3 belong to my village. I explained this to you yesterday.

4 Q. And this all tallies with your statement where on page 0081733 you

5 stated, and I quote: "I know that not a single man was armed or a member

6 of the KLA."

7 Is this still your testimony?

8 A. Yes. This is my testimony, that there wasn't a single KLA soldier

9 in the village.

10 Q. Mr. Loku, are you in a dispute or a feud or in any other sort of

11 conflict with a person from your village who was a member of the KLA, and

12 his name was Xhezair Bela?

13 A. This name is not familiar to me.

14 Q. Very well. Mr. Loku, were you able to observe that some

15 wounded -- members of the KLA were wounded in your -- were treated in

16 your school? There were two members of the KLA in question --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters apologise. We were unable to catch

18 the names.

19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. -- and they were treated by a physician there.

21 A. No.

22 Q. I will repeat the names for the transcript. These are the wounded

23 members of the KLA: Isa Medin [phoen] and Hasim Livareka [phoen] from the

24 village of Bob, and physicians Fatmir Vila from Djeneral Jankovic, and

25 Natal Sulejmani [phoen] from the village of Gorac. And I believe we have

1 already received your answer.

2 A. This is the first time for me I hear these names. I don't know of

3 any doctor by the name that you mentioned. These are names which I don't

4 know. I never knew them. I never saw them.

5 Q. And in your school there were no members of the KLA who had been

6 wounded and were treated at the school; is that correct?

7 A. No. There were only students in the school, but no soldier, or

8 wounded soldiers as you are putting it to me.

9 Q. Did you know that in your village there was a sub-unit of the KLA

10 commanded by Selim Kuci, and his deputy was Limaj Kuci?

11 A. No.

12 Q. All this, Mr. Loku, corresponds to what you testified about in the

13 Milosevic trial when at page 2004 you state: "[In English] I don't

14 remember to have seen any KLA members there. I'm saying that there wasn't

15 any KLA members there."

16 [Interpretation] Is that correct, Mr. Loku?

17 A. What I said is correct; namely, that there were no members of the

18 KLA in my village.

19 Q. Very well. Mr. Loku, your village is a small one. It had some

20 450 or 500 inhabitants out of which 100 were male, and you basically knew

21 all of its inhabitants; is that correct?

22 A. Yes. I knew each and every one of the persons who lived in the

23 village.

24 MR. STAMP: I'm just -- I'm not sure if the witness accepted that

25 100 of the people in his village were male. Just a matter for the record.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you can take that up with him in

2 re-examination.

3 Carry on, please, Mr. Visnjic.

4 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Just to provide information to the

5 learned friend, this is the Milosevic trial, page 1944. This is where I

6 found the figure of 100 adult men.

7 Q. Since we are discussing the Milosevic trial, on page 2005, you

8 stated: "[In English] [Previous translation continues] ... and no

9 confrontations between them and the Serb forces."

10 [Interpretation] Also, at the same trial at page 2017, you

11 said: "[In English] [Previous translation continues] ... in our village,

12 and whoever wished to join KLA ranks, he might do so because KLA troops

13 were in the mountains."

14 [Interpretation] This is what you still stand by. Isn't that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes. I stand by what I said at that time, because this is how the

17 situation was like in the village. There wasn't a single KLA unit

18 operating there. And those young people who wished to join its ranks

19 might do so through various forms and ways. It is known that the KLA

20 operated in various areas of Kacanik municipality, but not in my village.

21 Q. Precisely so, Mr. Loku. And you stated that you know that not a

22 single man carried arms or was a member of the KLA. And this is what you

23 said in the statement and on page 00813733. You've confirmed this to me a

24 moment ago. Hence, I want to ask you the following: Yesterday my learned

25 friend Mr. Stamp mentioned a certain cemetery or a graveyard where a part

1 of the inhabitants of your village were buried. That cemetery is in

2 Kacanik. Am I correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. As a matter of fact, Mr. Loku, this is not a municipal or city

5 graveyard of Kacanik. It is actually outside the settlement. Am I

6 correct?

7 A. The cemetery is outside the village, but it is in the context of

8 the Kacanik municipality.

9 Q. Correct. And it is at the crossroads of the roads for the

10 villages of Stagovo and on the other side the village of Strpce; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes, that's correct, nearby.

13 Q. And this is the road which you regularly take when you go from

14 your house in Urosevac to your village. Am I correct? Or if you go

15 towards Kacanik.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: In case -- in case --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: -- you're in any doubt about it, Mr. Visnjic, we

19 have clearly in mind that some of the bodies were buried in a cemetery

20 known as either a heroes' or a martyrs' cemetery of the KLA. Now, do you

21 need any more evidence on this point? Or do you want to undermine what

22 you've got?

23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, two things. First --

24 and I was about to start with that set of questions and I wish to be able

25 to corroborate that with some additional evidence.

1 Could we please show 3D71 to the witness.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Why do you -- why do you need to corroborate it?

3 If you have a witness here who adamantly maintains there was no KLA

4 activity in his village but nevertheless accepts that people who were

5 killed in this incident were buried in the cemetery, don't you have the

6 foundation of the argument you may wish to present later, or are you going

7 to get more from the questions you intend to ask? Because if you're not

8 confident of getting more, I suggest you move to something that's going to

9 be more productive.

10 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can freely state

11 this: Apart from being able to corroborate that some people whose bodies

12 were buried and who had been killed in that event on the 24th of March,

13 that they were indeed buried in that cemetery, but there were some other

14 inhabitants of his village who were members of the KLA buried in the same

15 cemetery. This is what I wanted to -- the witness to confirm.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. I accept that that is additional

17 material, so please carry on. But you'll understand my concern that we

18 did seem to be spending the best part of 25 minutes so far going nowhere.

19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show 3D81 to the

20 witness, page 5.

21 We don't have any translations since these are only photographs.

22 72. I'm sorry. 3D72. Page 5.

23 Q. Mr. Loku, this is Adnan Loku. This is the person you said was

24 killed on the 24th, right? Page 6, please.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Mr. Loku, this is Neshat Rexha. This is a person you said that

2 had come to visit his uncles in Kotlina, right? Also killed on the 24th

3 of March.

4 A. Yes. He was killed on the same day.

5 Q. Page 7, please. Abush Loku. This person was also killed on

6 the 24th. Am I right?

7 A. No, you are not right. Abush Loku is a martyr killed in Koshare.

8 He is from Kotline village, but he was killed somewhere else during the

9 fighting.

10 Q. Ibush Loku is the name the person who was killed, right? So the

11 name is similar except for the first letter?

12 A. Yes, Ibush, but this is not Ibush. This is Abush.

13 Q. Very well. Page 8. Xhezair Bela is not an inhabitant of your

14 village, right? So page 9, please.

15 A. No, he's not.

16 Q. Xhemajl Kuci.

17 A. Yes, he is. He is -- he is an inhabitant of Kotline village.

18 Q. When was he killed? He was not killed on the 24th.

19 A. He was killed on the 24th together with the other young men.

20 Q. Very well. Photograph number 3, please, page 3. Mahi Loku.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was he killed on the 24th?

23 A. Yes. He was also killed on the 24th of March.

24 Q. But he was not on that list that you read out to us yesterday.

25 A. Only if his photograph was not there. Otherwise, he should be on

1 the list.

2 Q. Very well. Photograph number 4. Sabri Loku.

3 A. Yes. He was also killed on the 24th of March.

4 Q. And photograph number 7. Photograph number 7. Danush Loku.

5 A. No. No Danush Loku.

6 Q. Danush Kuci?

7 A. Yes. Danush Kuci, yes.

8 Q. He was a KLA soldier, too, right?

9 A. No, he was not a soldier.

10 Q. All right. How many KLA soldiers were buried in this cemetery on

11 the Urosevac-Kacanik road? People from your village, that is.

12 A. I didn't count each and every one of them. I don't know, as I

13 said earlier, how many were buried, reburied here in this cemetery.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: When did Danush Kuci die?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Danush Kuci, father's name Idriz, he

16 was killed on the 24th of March in Kotline.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: His name -- well, there is an Idriz Kuci on the

18 schedule.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Idriz is Danush's father. He was

22 killed on the same day as well. He was about 60 years old.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: So that means that Danush does not appear on the

24 schedule. And there may be an earlier name that does not appear on the

25 schedule.

1 You no, what -- just a moment.

2 Mr. Visnjic, what may have been established here is it that

3 schedule doesn't include everybody who was actually killed on the 24th,

4 which expands the number of people that may have been killed on the 24th.

5 No doubt the Prosecution will investigate that. I don't think we've

6 established that there's anyone, according to this witness's evidence, so

7 far in the cemetery from Kotlina who got there as the result of a death on

8 a different day. So can we move to something that is productive now?

9 MR. IVETIC: I think that was the one from Kosare that was --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is one more, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: He gave his explanation that he was active in a

12 different place.

13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I've been trying to

14 find out from the witness how many persons were buried, because as you can

15 see, these pictures were taken from quite a distance, and I do not have

16 the possibility of having pictures taken of all the tombstones. And this

17 is what I'm trying to get from the witness, the number of persons buried

18 in the cemetery. He is not in a position to tell me. He doesn't know, as

19 he said just now. I can move on to my next topic but ...

20 Q. Mr. Loku, before I move on to my next topic --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: There must be way of getting photographs taken of

22 all the tombstones, if that's what you want. Why can't that just be done?

23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] You want me to tell you now or when

24 the witness leaves? It would be better to leave it for later. I will

25 have a comment regarding these photographs anyway.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.

2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Loku, let me ask you now yet again. Do you still stand by

4 this part of your statement that says, "I know that not a single man was a

5 member of the KLA in my village"? That's what I'm asking you now.

6 A. I stated it earlier, and I stand by it now, that in my village on

7 the day when this massacre was committed and these people were killed,

8 there was not a single KLA member.

9 Q. And you have no explanation why these persons were then buried in

10 the KLA cemetery?

11 A. My explanation is as follows: These persons that were buried in

12 the martyrs' cemetery, they contributed to the national cause before

13 the 24th of March. So the council that organised their reburial saw it

14 necessary to bury them in the martyrs' cemetery. So these 27 men from the

15 village that were killed on the 24th and two on the 9th, they would have

16 been all proclaimed martyrs if they were killed in fighting, in

17 combat with the Serbian forces.

18 Q. No, Mr. Loku. They were not proclaimed martyrs because their

19 pictures were taken in uniforms, and right next to them there is a coat of

20 arms and a sign of the KLA. That is what I'm putting to you, Mr. Loku.

21 And I'm also putting to you that when you stated in your statement

22 and what you said at the Milosevic case under oath is not correct. That

23 is what I'm putting to you. That is my assertion, Mr. Loku. Am I right?

24 A. I didn't understand your question. If you can repeat it, please.

25 Q. Mr. Loku, I'm putting to you the following: What you said in your

1 statement -- just a moment, please. 00813733, and what you said at the

2 Milosevic case on page 2004 and 2005 and 2017, namely that there were no

3 members of the KLA in your village, that all of that is not correct, and I

4 claim that you are not telling the truth. And I claim that these

5 photographs prove it.

6 A. I'm telling you the truth, that in my village there were no

7 uniformed persons, rather, persons carrying -- wearing KLA uniforms or

8 persons who offered resistance to the Serbian forces.

9 Q. No, no, Mr. Loku. I'm asking you whether there were any KLA

10 members in your village. Now, that's your assertion.

11 A. I already told you that there were no members. And these persons

12 that you are mentioning as members of the KLA, they were not soldiers.

13 Q. Very well.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: So what were they?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were villagers, ordinary

16 citizens from the village. Three of them were teachers in my school, and

17 they had contributed for years with the national cause in different ways

18 in the education sphere and so on.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: So they're buried there because they were teachers.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was one of the reasons. They

21 were teachers. They worked on the national cause. And the council who

22 carried out the reburial, they should know better why they chose to bury

23 them in this martyrs' cemetery.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: We understand that, but we don't have them here.

25 We have you here, and we'd like to know what the explanation is for them

1 being in the martyrs' cemetery.

2 One of them that you've identified as in the cemetery was only 16.

3 Now, why was he buried in the martyrs' cemetery?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 16-year-old was not buried in

5 the martyrs' cemetery.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Neshat Rexha was not buried there?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Neshat Rexha was buried there, but

8 he is not from Kotlina village, and I don't know his date of birth.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: But you -- he is the one who was visiting; is that

10 correct? He was the one who was visiting his uncle?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct. He was at his

12 uncle's place when he was killed on that day.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Naser Loku, was he buried there?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Naser Loku? Yes.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: He was 17.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand. 70 years old?

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Seventeen.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 7-0 was the age of Zimer Loku.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no. He was 17 years of age.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Seventeen years old were two persons

21 who had the name Naser. The 17-year-old was buried in the village

22 cemetery. We have Naser Fazli Loku, Fazli being father's name; and Naser

23 Rexhep Loku, Rexhep being the father's name. So two persons with the

24 first name Naser.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, can you help us by being any more specific

1 about what service they would have done -- those who were buried there

2 would have done for the KLA to deserve the title "martyrs"?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot provide any explanation

4 about this.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: If you had been killed that day would you expect to

6 have been buried in that cemetery?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

9 Mr. Visnjic.

10 MR. VISNJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Loku, in your statement, you said that you

12 had two plans for the evacuation of the village; is that right?

13 A. Not two plans but two directions, two paths that could take us

14 outside the village, because we were not planning to leave the village.

15 Q. So what it says in your statement, paragraph 4 on page 1 -- let me

16 just have a look at the English version. In the English version as well.

17 It says: "We had two plans for the evacuation of the village." That is

18 incorrect. Am I right?

19 A. The word "plan" has a different meaning, because we didn't have

20 any plans, but when it happened, there were two directions. That was a

21 plan that was made accordingly to what had happened, not from before.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: What's the reference to that, Mr. Visnjic?

23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the statement in

24 English, page 2, paragraph 4.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: You don't have the transcript reference from

1 yesterday? Because my recollection is that it was two ways --

2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No. I have a different indication.

3 The wording used yesterday was somewhat different. That's why I'm asking

4 the witness. Yesterday he said -- I just have the quotation, I don't have

5 the reference. "[In English] [Previous translation continues] ... they

6 choose the place where they would go to."

7 [Interpretation] That is what he stated yesterday. In the

8 statement, it says that there was a plan, but I'm going to accept the

9 explanation provided by the witness just now.

10 Q. Now, in your statement you say you were with your relative, Heset

11 Loku. That is page --

12 A. It should be Heset, H-e-s-e-t.

13 Q. Heset Loku. The page is 00813732.

14 Now I'm asking you the following: Was Heset a member of the KLA?

15 A. Up until the 24th of March, Heset wasn't a KLA member. We went

16 together to Macedonia, but after some time he returned to Kosova and

17 became a KLA member.

18 Q. So binoculars is part of his regular equipment like -- as a

19 regular civilian, that is?

20 A. These were hunting binoculars that we took with us by accident

21 from Stimlje.

22 Q. Right. Now, I would ask for 3D88 to be prepared.

23 And before that I'm going to ask you the following: In your

24 statement you said that you were about 400 metres away from those two

25 holes or pits that were later blown up. Yesterday, during the course of

1 your testimony, you said the distance involved was 500 to 600 metres. Is

2 there any special reason for that change or was it, well, just like that,

3 just a question of estimate, your own estimate?

4 MR. STAMP: I'm wondering if my friend can assist us with the

5 references for those sections cited.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't think we need these. I've certainly got a

7 clear recollection that that was the evidence yesterday. Please just move

8 on, Mr. Visnjic. If there's someone assisting you who can help, then so

9 it be, but ...

10 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Loku, now we have a photograph here of your village, which was

12 taken from the road leading from Kacanik to your village. I'm asking you

13 the following: From this view-point, were you further away from this

14 position or can you tell me approximately in terms of distance?

15 A. From this view-point, I was on the left side of this photograph.

16 You cannot see the place where I was on the photograph. I stated it

17 yesterday that I was on the opposite side of the village. The village is

18 in a shape of a semicircle, and we are now talking about a distance in

19 terms of --

20 Q. So you were even further away from this it place, right?

21 A. No, not further from this place. Closer, but from a different

22 angle, because you cannot see the holes from this point of view.

23 Q. Well, you cannot see them because they're on the right, and if you

24 were further away, you could have only been on the left. That's why I'm

25 asking you.

1 A. I was on the left but closer to the houses in the village, and the

2 holes were in front of me.

3 Q. Very well. Were you at a position that was lower than this place

4 in terms of altitude?

5 A. No, not lower than this place. It could have been even a couple

6 of metres higher in terms of altitude. And the place, as I said, where I

7 was, if compared to this place on the photograph, was higher for couple of

8 metres, in terms of altitude.

9 Q. Very well. Could the witness now please be shown Defence

10 Exhibit -- or, rather, the same document but page 9.

11 Mr. Loku, is this the hill where the pits are, where the holes

12 are?

13 A. Yes. This is the hill where the holes are. Above the mosque.

14 Q. And this black dot in the middle of the hill, the computer image

15 is not very focused, but would that be where the pits are?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could the witness now please be shown the following

18 photographs: 3. You see, Mr. Loku, it's the same place but just a bit

19 enlarged. Then photograph number 5.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And photograph number 7.

22 A. Yes, I can see the photographs.

23 Q. Now, Mr. Loku, does this correspond to what you saw on the 24th of

24 March, 1999?

25 A. Yes. These were the holes and what I saw on the 24th of March.

1 Q. You said that you saw this with the naked eye and that you didn't

2 have to use any binoculars, or is this just my understanding of your

3 statement?

4 A. We had the binoculars. We were watching through binoculars but

5 with the naked eye as well. And we didn't need the binoculars that much.

6 But on the 24th of March when the incident happened there wasn't such

7 vegetation. You could see clearly everything.

8 Q. How come you know when this picture was taken, sir?

9 A. What I see on this photograph, the photograph must have been taken

10 in mid-August, because there the -- the vegetation starts in early May.

11 So there couldn't be that much vegetation on the 24th of March when it

12 happened.

13 Q. You see, Mr. Loku, now you've got a new problem, because these

14 photographs were taken on the 24th of May, when you said that there is no

15 vegetation. The 24th of May. Yes, that's what I said. The transcript is

16 right.

17 Now, I'm going to ask you about the following --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: The witness did not say there was no vegetation on

19 the 24th of May. He said that the vegetation starts at the beginning of

20 May.

21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Then, Your Honour, it seems that it

22 blossoms pretty fast from the beginning of May until the 24th of May. But

23 let's look at a few other photographs. 22, please.

24 Q. Mr. Loku, you see, this photograph was taken above both wells,

25 because at any other place other than this it was impossible to see

1 anything in terms of this area in fronts of you because of all the

2 greenery around it.

3 Now I'm asking you the following -- or, rather, as for this place

4 where the wells are, is that where you can approximately see this road

5 from which we took the previous photographs? Would that seem right to

6 what you know in terms of the location of the holes?

7 A. I'm repeating it. I told you that this photo is taken during a

8 blossom, and when there is vegetation, you can't see things. So I cannot

9 give any other explanation for this picture because I don't -- you can't

10 see anything there.

11 Q. Very well.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: I suspect you'll have at least two winters in which

13 to take the appropriate photographs, Mr. Visnjic, and let us see them.

14 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in view of the latest

15 developments, I'm afraid that you're right, but we'll see how things go.

16 Q. I'll somehow you a few more photographs, so I'd kindly ask you to

17 identify them for me. Photograph number 15, please.

18 Mr. Loku, does this photograph correspond to the foot of the hill?

19 It was taken somewhere near the clinic, the infirmary. As far as you're

20 concerned, would this seem right? Or perhaps we can move on to the next

21 one because this one is not very clear. There's nothing specific here.

22 Let's see photograph number 16, please.

23 This is yet another photograph from the top, rather, above the

24 holes that shows roughly the right-hand side where you said you were.

25 Mr. Loku, as you can see, in the middle of the photograph we see a bit of

1 the roof-tops. Is this roughly where you were?

2 A. Your Honours, I would kindly ask you to prevent such questions

3 being asked of me using such photos with vegetation, because when there is

4 vegetation, it's difficult to discern something. If they wanted to put

5 photos to me, they should have shown me photos of that time, of the

6 24th of March of other years to see what one can see on that day of the

7 year. Do not show me such colour -- green-coloured photos.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Loku, I can assure you it's not a simple

9 exercise to get the photographs that may be necessary for the preparation

10 of a case like this, and while I understand the point you're making, it's

11 your duty to do your best to answer the question.

12 Now, if you can't answer it because it's impossible, you can just

13 say that. But it's not for us to stop the questions being asked in this

14 these circumstances. It's for you simply to say that you can't be of

15 assistance when faced with a photograph of this nature, which is what I

16 take to be your answer to that question. And no doubt Mr. Visnjic will

17 now move on.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.

19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we show for

20 number 19 to the witness, please. This is the same one. Let us move on.

21 Number 20, please. No. No. Then photograph number 18, and I

22 will conclude with this. No. No.

23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me check first.

24 I have no more questions for this witness. Thank you.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I want to begin with a request that we

2 go into closed session.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: In broad terms, would you please tell me why?

4 MR. ACKERMAN: I can't in the presence of the witness, Your

5 Honour.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we can have the witness leave the courtroom

7 while you want to explain.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Then I'd be happy to do it if the witness is not in

9 the courtroom.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.

11 Mr. Loku, could you withdraw just very briefly from the court and

12 you'll be back in a couple of minutes. The usher will show you where to

13 go just for the moment while I hear a submission about the law.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 [The witness stands down]

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, in the testimony of the witness

17 yesterday, beginning at page 3167 of the transcript, Mr. Stamp was asking

18 him about the place where these people were buried. He said that most of

19 them were buried in the schoolyard. He was asked where the others were

20 buried and he said they were buried in other place. He was asked what the

21 other place was, and he said: "Some were buried at Kacanik cemetery."

22 He was asked if that was associated with any organisation. He

23 said: "This I don't know."

24 Now, we know now that was not a true answer.

25 He was asked: "Did you hear anything about any organisation that

1 the Kacanik cemetery might have been associated with?" His answer was no.

2 And we know now that that was not a true answer.

3 And then finally Mr. Stamp had to ask a leading question because

4 he knew that this was in the statement the man had given: "Do you know

5 whether or not any of these persons who are buried in a cemetery that is

6 associated with the KLA?"

7 And after a few more questions he finally was able to drag that

8 out of him and get him to agree that that was the case.

9 I want to go into closed session because I have a theory that I

10 want to test with the witness, and I may not get anywhere with it and I

11 may. But what I think was going on yesterday and what seems kind of

12 obvious to me what was going on yesterday was that it was a public

13 hearing, and he was afraid for what would happen to him when he went back

14 home if he said there were KLA in his village, if he said that some of

15 these people that were killed there were KLA, and he was very reluctant to

16 say that until it was absolutely forced out of him so that he can defend

17 himself when he goes home.

18 I'd like to go into closed session and just ask him if that's the

19 case.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, do you want to comment on that?

21 MR. STAMP: No. No, Your Honour. I thought the explanations

22 could have been broader if they were security issues, but I have no

23 comments.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Just give us a moment to consider the

25 position.

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll grant this application on the broad basis

3 that it's in the interests of the security of the witness. It will simply

4 be private session that's required, I take it. We won't need to bring

5 down the blinds.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: I keep getting those mixed up, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: So when the witness comes back, we will go into

8 private session.

9 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'd like you to explain to him that

11 we're in private session and what that means.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: I will explain that to him.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: So he's completely assured that nothing's going

14 outside this courtroom.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Indeed.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman, it may be that your objective could

18 be inadvertently defeated if the reason wasn't in fact redacted from the

19 public transcript. The basic reason that I've given need not be redacted

20 but the explanation probably should.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, I agree with you.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: So what I think we'll do is in the circumstances

23 redact the whole of the section from your submission, and then I will

24 repeat the reason in a moment.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm grateful to Your Honour for realising that. I

1 should have realised it myself.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: So I'm grateful to the Registrar for making that

3 suggestion.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Thanks to the Registrar.

5 THE REGISTRAR: We are in private session at the moment, Your

6 Honours.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well -- okay.

8 Mr. Loku, I have granted the application to hear the next part of

9 your evidence in what's called private session. That means that all that

10 transpires here is in private. Nothing can been heard by anyone outside.

11 Nothing can be reported about what is said by you in answer to the

12 questions that are about to be asked. So we are essentially behind closed

13 doors, with one slight modification that what's going on can be seen from

14 the outside, but that simply indicates that the public can see that a

15 court is in session. They can't hear anything that goes on in that

16 session.

17 So these are the circumstances under which the next part of the

18 evidence will be heard. Mr. Ackerman will now start his

19 cross-examination.

20 Mr. Ackerman.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, could you also assure him that nothing

22 that's said here will be later furnished to the public in any way. It

23 remains private.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, indeed, I think I've already said that

25 nothing can be reported either now or later about what is actually said

1 here. So carry on now, please.

2 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman:

3 Q. Mr. Loku, my name is John Ackerman. I represent General Pavkovic

4 in this case, and I have a few questions I want to ask you, and I want to

5 start with some testimony you gave yesterday. Actually, I want to start a

6 little bit ahead of that.

7 You -- when you came here, you had a conversation with some

8 representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor, Irina Dragulev, Associate

9 Legal Officer, and that was on the 5th of September where you made some

10 corrections and provided some additional information regarding your

11 testimony, your story. Do you recall doing that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And in that supplemental information sheet --

14 MR. ACKERMAN: And, Your Honours, that has now been put in the

15 system as Exhibit 4D16.

16 Q. In that supplemental information sheet in paragraph 6 you made

17 this revelation: "Half the victims were buried on a cemetery of the

18 schoolyard. The other half were declared KLA heroes and buried on the KLA

19 cemetery."

20 Now, according to this representative of the Prosecutor's office,

21 that's what you told them that day. Is that correct?

22 A. The way I understand your question is I stated that I said stated

23 approximately a half. I didn't count the number of those buried in the

24 schoolyard and those buried at the martyrs' cemetery. But I didn't say

25 they were proclaimed heroes. They are just victims of the war, martyrs of

1 the war.

2 Q. So when Ms. Dragulev or whoever else might have been assisting her

3 wrote in this supplemental information sheet that you had said that, that

4 was misinformation. She was wrong. Is that what you're saying?

5 A. Maybe there has been a mistake during the translation.

6 Q. All right. Now, yesterday you certainly mentioned to her, no

7 question about that, that some of these people were buried in the KLA

8 cemetery. No question about what you said there, is there?

9 A. I said it yesterday too.

10 Q. I'm asking about September 5th. You said it then, didn't you?

11 A. Yes, I said it on that day.

12 Q. Now, yesterday Mr. Stamp was asking you about this, about where

13 these people were buried, and you said: "Most of them were buried in the

14 schoolyard."

15 And then he asked you: "Where were the others buried? You said

16 yes. Then he said: "Where were the others buried, do you know?"

17 And then you said: "The others were buried in another place. In

18 the cemetery."

19 Mr. Stamp then asks you: "What was that other place? Can you

20 describe it for me, please?"

21 You said: "Yes, I can. Some of them were buried at Kacanik

22 cemetery. Those who are not buried at the schoolyard are buried at

23 Kacanik cemetery."

24 Then Mr. Stamp said this, having read what you told

25 Ms. Dragulev: "Now, the Kacanik cemetery, was it associated or did it

1 belong to any organisation?"

2 And you told us, under oath: "This I don't know."

3 And then Mr. Stamp said: "Well, did you hear anything about any

4 organisation that the Kacanik cemetery might have been associated with?"

5 And again you told us no.

6 Now, those two answers were clearly not true. And what I want to

7 ask you is this: Did you give those answers because you were afraid that

8 people outside this courtroom might take some kind of action against you

9 when you went home if you admitted that there were KLA in your village?

10 Did you give the answers this way because of fear of what would happen to

11 you when you got home?

12 Understand no one can hear this exchange, this is very private.

13 So you can be honest.

14 A. I said yesterday, and I will repeat today, as far as I am

15 concerned, you can go into public session, because the way I understood

16 the question of me was associated with some other organisation. I didn't

17 understand that it was -- it meant the cemetery, the martyrs' cemetery.

18 This other organisation, for me, was not clear. That's why I said what I

19 said.

20 I am not afraid of anyone. I have not been threatened by anyone,

21 and I didn't consult the opinion of anyone before coming here. I came

22 here to testify to what I witnessed with my naked eye and what I suffered

23 on my own back, and I am not the only witness in the village to what

24 happened. It was seen by about 500 inhabitants in the village.

25 Therefore, this is a fact of life, namely, that the military and the

1 police Serb forces undertook that operation against the inhabitants and

2 against my village.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Can we go back into open session, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: I appreciate your indulgence.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. Back into open session, please.

7 [Open session]

8 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

10 MR. ACKERMAN:

11 Q. Mr. Loku, you gave a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor on

12 the 4th of June, 1999. That's a statement that you -- you signed and

13 swore to. It was read back to you in your language and you were given a

14 chance to make any corrections you wanted to make. Isn't that true?

15 A. It is true that I gave the statement. I made some corrections,

16 but I don't know how the translator reflected my corrections in English,

17 because I gave the statement in Albanian and it was translated by a

18 translator in English. So it's -- it depends on him, how he has reflected

19 in English what I did in Albanian.

20 Q. Well, at paragraph 3 of that statement you talk about some

21 villages near Kotlina being shelled. Do you remember that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And those villages all had KLA members in them, didn't they?

24 A. I had no knowledge that there were KLA members in those villages.

25 Q. Well, you certainly know there were KLA members in the

1 neighbouring village of Ivaja, don't you?

2 A. Ivaja is a village near Kotline. Therefore, as I said in my

3 testimony earlier, and it is correct and I will stand by this as long as I

4 live because things are not easy to forget, on the 8th of March the

5 Serbian forces launched an offensive against Ivaja.

6 Q. You're really not answering my question and I don't want to stay

7 here the whole day. All I asked you was: You know there were KLA members

8 in the village of Ivaja, don't you? Because you told us that in your

9 statement. You can just say yes or no.

10 A. I gave you the answer. No, I didn't know that there were -- that

11 there were KLA members in the village.

12 Q. Hmm. In paragraph 3 of your statement, about halfway through, and

13 this is in the -- this is -- this is in our evidence, Your Honours,

14 as 4D15. Third paragraph on page 2.

15 You said: "I knew that there were some UCK in the village of

16 Ivaja, and I believe they were resisting Serb forces."

17 Now, that's what you said, wasn't it?

18 A. It's not as if you are translating it to me in Albanian. I said

19 that when Ivaja village was attacked some resistance was put up by the

20 KLA, but not inside the village. The fighting took place in the outskirts

21 of the village where the KLA resisted the Serb attack.

22 Q. And that resistance resulted in a battle that lasted for three

23 days between the KLA and the Serb forces, didn't it?

24 A. No. One day, not three days.

25 Q. So when you said under oath to tell the truth like you are here in

1 the Milosevic trial at page 2026: "During the resistance it lasted three

2 days between the KLA and the Serb forces," speaking of the battle that was

3 going on at Ivaja.

4 So that wasn't true, when you testified to that in Milosevic?

5 A. If it was translated in this way, it is not true. I didn't

6 declare that.

7 Q. So any time anything isn't what you want it to be, then the

8 problem is the translators; is that right?

9 MR. STAMP: That's just an argument.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say that.

11 MR. ACKERMAN:

12 Q. In your statement to the OTP, in paragraph 15, you talk about some

13 rockets that were being fired over your village. Actually, you talk about

14 your village being shelled, and you said: "The shells seemed to be

15 directed to land just outside the village in an effort to stop people from

16 fleeing the village."

17 Did you say that or is that another translation problem?

18 A. It is approximately so. I said that the shells fell in the

19 vicinity of the village, some tens of metres away from the houses. And my

20 opinion was and is that they didn't want the population to leave the

21 village.

22 Q. Well, if the goal was to get the population to leave the village,

23 why would they try to keep the population from leaving the village? Does

24 that make any sense to you?

25 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that's for later argument.

1 MR. ACKERMAN: It is, Your Honour.

2 Q. Do you think maybe they were trying to trap the KLA that were

3 hiding in that village that later wound up killed? Do you think maybe

4 that's why they were doing it that way?

5 A. I don't think so, as you are putting it to me. The villagers

6 didn't intend to leave the village. They didn't have any reason to leave.

7 They were not afraid of anyone for anything. But when at the last moment

8 the shelling started, they saw that they were trapped, and out of panic

9 they wanted to find a way out of that situation.

10 Q. Now, this tank that you claim was firing at your village, was it

11 out in the open? Could you see it clearly?

12 A. The tanks -- to put it more clearly, we couldn't see where the

13 shelling was coming from. We saw only where they landed, in the vicinity

14 of the village. But the sound of the shelling was from all sides of the

15 village.

16 Q. Well, I'm referring to your statement again, and this may be

17 another translation error. Paragraph 16 you say: "While I was hiding at

18 the top of the ravine, I saw a tank arrive at the top of the wooded hill

19 to the south of the village, and this tank was machine-gunning over the

20 village."

21 Now, did you see a tank or not?

22 A. Yes. After the shelling, which lasted for half an hour or one

23 hour, then I saw a tank entering the village. Not a single tank but

24 several ones.

25 Q. Now, this was the 24th of March, after NATO had started their

1 campaign, wasn't it?

2 A. No. This was the day of the 24th of March in the morning, and the

3 massacre happened until the evening. As far as I know, NATO air-strikes

4 started in the evening or at the night of the 24th of March. After that,

5 genocide or the massacre was perpetrated against my people.

6 Q. All right. I want to talk now just for a few moments with you

7 about something else you told us. You've talked about a little bit this

8 morning already. I'd like to read a paragraph to you from your statement

9 and then ask you about it.

10 You say: "Once they had completed the burning of the village and

11 the execution of the men, the Serbs started to leave in the direction of

12 Kacanik. One of their tanks broke down and it took some time before they

13 could repair it. Once it had been repaired and all the Serbs had left the

14 area, we came out of hiding and entered the village. We could hear

15 livestock screaming where they were locked in buildings that were burning,

16 and we all split up to go and release them."

17 Is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. So you claim to have been up hiding on the side of this hill and

20 watched this horrible massacre, as you call it, in a hole on the side of a

21 hill above the village, and as soon as you -- as soon as the Serbs leave

22 you go rushing into the village and start saving livestock. Is that your

23 testimony?

24 A. You are putting it to me in this way. I was not the only one to

25 return to the village. We were about 40 young people who returned, and we

1 were all running in the direction of houses. Some of us were releasing

2 the livestock, some were searching for dead bodies or injured persons.

3 And in some houses we found three bodies. One of them was still alive.

4 Two were already dead. So all of us were trying to do something to see if

5 there was anything alive, not only livestock.

6 Q. Mr. Loku, I can only ask you questions based upon what you told

7 the Prosecutor and what's written in your statement. I have to rely on

8 that as having some kind of accuracy, and what it says here that you said

9 was: "We, we could hear livestock screaming where they were locked in

10 buildings that were burning, and we all split up to go and release them."

11 Now, is that wrong?

12 A. That is not wrong. We released livestock. We found the dead

13 bodies. We found Zimer Loku who was still alive but seriously wounded.

14 We found to the holes and saw them flattened out and everything else.

15 Q. Well, no where do you say you went to the holes. In fact, you

16 didn't go to the holes. You went and saved livestock and didn't go

17 anywhere near those holes, did you?

18 A. I personally didn't go to the holes. There were others who went.

19 I said I was not the only one who went back to the village. There were

20 about 40 persons and each of them running to do something.

21 Q. Well, you're the one that had seen what happened up in those

22 holes. Why didn't you go up there to see if there was somebody up there

23 you could help, somebody who was wounded, who was injured, that you could

24 help instead of saving livestock?

25 A. There were others who went to the holes. They, too, saw what

1 happened. I was not the only one that witnessed the incident at the hole.

2 The others had already gone there and seen that everything was finished

3 there and that the earth was flattened out.

4 Q. I would like the witness to be shown -- to have put up on the

5 screen --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, is this a suitable time to interrupt?

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, it would be, Your Honour.

8 MR. STAMP: Yes, I think it would be.

9 I -- Your Honour, I was looking at the answer the witness gave in

10 closed session, and having regard to that answer which explained his

11 earlier answer to my questions and explained his personal situation in

12 respect to coming here and the absence of fear and absence of threats, I

13 would suggest, I would apply that that record be made public. I don't

14 think that the reasons suggested earlier for it to be private are extant

15 anymore.

16 So I respectfully ask that that be released to the public.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I have no objection if the witness has

18 no objection. I was only doing it to protect the witness, not to protect

19 anything else.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: We can do that without any difficulty, can we?

21 Well, we're certainly satisfied that the whole session can be

22 public and, therefore, steps will be taken to revoke the orders which were

23 made for the private session and also for the earlier redaction.

24 We will resume at 10 minutes past 4.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 3.49 p.m.

1 --- On resuming at 4.12 p.m.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Okay. Mr. Loku, I want you take a look at Exhibit P2296, which

5 should be up here on the screen here momentarily.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Just carry on, Mr. Ackerman.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm trying to.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry, what is it you need?

9 MR. ACKERMAN: P2296. Well, that says it's P2296 but that's not

10 what I had in mind. Maybe the Prosecution can help me. I'm looking for

11 the -- oh, yeah, it is. It's the last page of that document. It has a

12 drawing on it. If the usher could get us to the drawing that is

13 located -- I suppose it's page 9 of that document maybe. There we go.

14 Q. Can you see that on your screen, sir?

15 THE INTERPRETER: If the witness's mic can be turned on. Thank

16 up.

17 MR. ACKERMAN:

18 Q. Was there a building there in your village that you referred to as

19 the ambulance building?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Where was that? Can you show us where that was?

22 A. Yes. I'll show it to you now.

23 Q. And just tell us if it already has some kind of a mark on it or

24 something written by it.

25 A. I have marked it with the short form AM standing for ambulance,

1 just to show that that is the clinic building.

2 Q. You just now drew a blue circle there, I guess; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. All right.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'll have that made a court exhibit,

6 then, an in court exhibit.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: [Microphone not activated].

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Judge Bonomy.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: I am.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we'll make it an exhibit once you've finished

11 using it, because in my experience is it causes problems as soon as you

12 take the picture. Let's carry on with it on the screen as it is.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I'm going to go to a different exhibit and

14 then come back to this, Judge, that's my problem.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you need the shot then. That's okay.

16 THE REGISTRAR: That's IC35, Your Honours.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: 35? All right. Okay. Now I want to go to 4D14.

18 And it's the second page of that document ending in the numbers 898.

19 Q. All right. Sir, this is -- this is in English, and I don't think

20 there's an Albanian version. At least I've not been advised that there

21 was. It says that it is the interview of a person by the name of Hazbi

22 Loku, a male, birth date 25 March 1961, from Kotlina. I take it that

23 would be you?

24 A. From what is written on this paper, yes.

25 Q. And you recall giving an interview to the ICG or the OSCE, do you

1 not?

2 A. I gave two or three statements in Skopje. I don't remember every

3 organisation, but they dealt with crimes that were committed in Kotline.

4 Q. Okay. Could we go back one page, please, to one that says 898 at

5 the top right-hand corner. I don't know how we moved forward a page, but

6 we did.

7 Now, I know you can't read it, but that last full paragraph at the

8 bottom of this, the interviewer says that you told him or --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: The witness has an Albanian version in front of

10 him.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Oh, he does?

12 JUDGE BONOMY: I think so.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, if he does, that's good.

14 Q. Do you have an Albanian version on the screen in front of you,

15 sir?

16 I'm told it's B/C/S, Your Honour.

17 That last full paragraph reads as follows: "The group from the

18 ambulance building was forced to walk to a well near the ambulance. They

19 were all beaten up again and suffered serious injuries as a result of the

20 torture. Although the victims were still alive, the perpetrators threw

21 them into the well. Finally, the MUP threw hand-grenades into the well.

22 The victims were torn to pieces. The dead bodies are still in the well."

23 Is that the story you told just a few days after this happened,

24 after you'd left your country, after you'd left Kosovo?

25 A. No. This is not what I said. It has some elements but not in its

1 entirety.

2 Q. Well, I suspect and I suggest to you that that is what you said,

3 and that after you talked to some people following the making of this

4 statement you realised it was not correct and that it wasn't a well near

5 the ambulance, but you were told that it was a hole up on the side of the

6 hill. Isn't that true?

7 A. This document before me is in B/C/S, and I can see that there are

8 many mistakes in it. I don't know now if these mistakes occurred during

9 the translation or were done with a certain purpose in mind. I don't know

10 that.

11 Q. Well, after making that statement and apparently talking to some

12 villagers you changed -- if what you said there was even close to true,

13 you then changed your story, and you said that you had seen these people

14 taken up a hill where there was a hole. You saw them beaten by men in

15 police uniforms and bullet-proof vests that were blue camouflage in

16 colour, also some soldiers in VJ uniforms, and that they were thrown into

17 this hole, and then you later heard an explosion, and that you observed

18 all this and saw all this happening.

19 I suggest to you you didn't observe it. You really didn't see

20 this happen, did you?

21 A. I saw everything that happened with my eyes and I felt it in my

22 soul.

23 Q. Well, if you saw everything that happened with your eyes, why did

24 you describe it as a hole up on the side of this hill? You called it a

25 hole, didn't you?

1 A. A hole or a well in my language has a same meaning.

2 Q. So what you saw was a hole or a well up on the side of the hill;

3 correct?

4 A. The two wells above the village, I knew that they were there

5 because the villagers had tried to find water there. There are many wells

6 in our village that provide villagers with water.

7 Q. But you didn't say a well or -- you didn't say two wells or two

8 holes, you said a hole. You described one hole. And let's go back to

9 that diagram. It's now -- I want to look at the one you made the marks

10 on. That's IC31, is it? IC35. Let's look at that again.

11 Now, that's attached to the end of this statement, so while you

12 were giving this statement to the OTP where you talked about a hole up on

13 the side of this hill, you drew this diagram, and on the diagram you drew

14 one hole, didn't you, not two?

15 A. It is correct that you can see one hole in the photograph, but the

16 holes were very close to each other, and I didn't find it reasonable to

17 draw two holes. These are two separate holes which are -- which have only

18 a couple of metres in between. That's why I didn't saw it necessary to

19 represent two groups -- two holes there.

20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... drew that map there, didn't

21 you? One hole; correct?

22 JUDGE BONOMY: The witness has answered that question.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct, yes.

24 MR. ACKERMAN:

25 Q. I want you to look at Exhibit P360 now. P360. And I suggest to

1 you that you later learned that there were two holes up there and so you

2 had to change your story again. So when you talked to the Prosecutor the

3 other day, for the first time in your supplemental statement, and it would

4 be at paragraph 2 of that statement, you wanted to change your prior

5 statement and say: "I know there were two large holes," but you only

6 learned that later.

7 If you look at this picture that's on the screen now, these are

8 pretty large holes, and they're pretty prominent, aren't they?

9 A. The holes can be clearly seen on the photograph. They look large,

10 but these photographs were taken when there was work going on there to

11 recover the bodies. And this is what I meant earlier when I said when

12 there is no vegetation you can see clearly what is in the picture, even

13 though this photograph was taken from a distance.

14 Q. So you still contend that you actually observed what happened

15 there even though you changed the story about three times, right?

16 MR. STAMP: That's argumentative.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: It is entirely argumentative, and it's not

18 advancing the matter, Mr. Ackerman.

19 MR. ACKERMAN:

20 Q. When you testified about this incident in the Milosevic case - I'm

21 on page 2018 - Mr. Milosevic is asking you about this incident that

22 happened in your village on the 24th, and you said this: "It was only

23 after some days that we realised what had happened there, that we saw what

24 had happened there."

25 Now, that's the truth, isn't it? You didn't see what happened

1 there that day. You learned what happened there days later. So you have

2 no idea who it was that committed these acts, putting these people in

3 these holes and so forth. You told the truth in Milosevic, I believe.

4 A. I didn't say that in the way you are putting it to me. What

5 happened, I saw it with my own eyes. That was said with a reference to

6 something that was found later, two victims that were found later. This

7 is what I meant, because at that time we didn't know who the victims were.

8 We found about it later.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm going to move the admission of

10 Exhibits 4D12, 13, 14, 15, and 16, which are all of this -- these

11 witness's statements and accounts of these events. And with that I have

12 no further questions.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: We've had reference to 14 and 16, I think, and you

14 also wish -- what are 12, 13 and 14 -- 12, 13 and 15.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: 12 and 13 are Milosevic transcript.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Extracts from it.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: No, the full transcript.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. And -- and 15?

19 MR. ACKERMAN: 15 is his 18 May 1999 statement, that I think is

20 also an OTP exhibit. 16 is the supplemental information sheet, and 14 is

21 the ICG or OSCE.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: The 18th of May statement.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: That's not the right date. It's the 4 June 1999

24 statement.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's P2296.

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: We don't need it again.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: No, we don't. We don't need it again.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, what is -- what is your position in

6 relation to 4D12 and 13?

7 MR. STAMP: 12 --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: These are the transcripts from Milosevic. It's --

9 it's the full transcript.

10 MR. STAMP: I would ask to reserve that until the end of the

11 testimony, because it just might well be that other parts of the

12 transcript are put to him for clarification of those which have already

13 been put to him. But normally the position is that only those extracts

14 which have been asked about are the ones that are admissible.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's a rule that I can understand before a

16 jury, but here, we'll be here until kingdom come if we have to explore the

17 whole testimony in real time in court that was given on two different

18 occasions. Why can't we be left in due course to take account of the

19 submissions that are made and compare the two in light of the challenges

20 that have so far been made to the testimony?

21 Yes, what's your position on that?

22 MR. STAMP: I do not object to the entire transcript going in if

23 the Court feels it is necessary to provide some sort of context for the

24 parts used. However, I -- I thought the Court might not want to be

25 burdened by unnecessary paperwork, and the general practice has been that

1 only those parts shown to be relevant in court would go in, those extracts

2 used would go in, unless the whole thing is necessary to prove or

3 establish the context in which something was said.

4 Why I ask that it be reserved is that it might well be that some

5 of the things from the Milosevic case that were put to him may well be

6 better understood if other parts of the transcript are also put to him.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

8 Mr. Ackerman, what do you have to say about that?

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, I was -- as you correctly

10 perceived, I was just trying to save a lot of time. I could very easily

11 go through the parts that I've marked in this transcript that I want to

12 bring to the Court's attention and introduce each page as opposed to the

13 whole thing as I refer to it.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: And what's the estimate of your time for that?

15 MR. ACKERMAN: A couple of hours.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's consider the position.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE BONOMY: What -- what we will do is reserve the position on

19 this for the moment. That will -- until we've heard all the evidence from

20 the witness. That will not prejudice your position in any way,

21 Mr. Ackerman, because at the very least we will allow you to submit the

22 highlighted portions that you're referring to, and it may indeed be that

23 that is the way forward, but we'll make a final decision on that once

24 we've heard the re-examination.

25 So meanwhile, we will deal with -- well, we don't need to deal

1 positively with 14 and 16 because they're already part of the process. 15

2 is not necessary since it's a repetition of P2296. And we'll reserve our

3 position on 12 and 13 pending the rest of this witness's evidence.

4 And that takes us to Mr. Lukic.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Loku. I'm Branko Lukic.

8 Together with my colleagues Mr. Ivetic and --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on, Mr. Lukic.

10 MR. STAMP: May I just inquire. What's 3D -- or 4D15.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: 4D?

12 MR. STAMP: 4D15 used or referred to at all?

13 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no. Mr. Ackerman tells me it's a repetition

14 of P2296 and, therefore, it won't be necessary.

15 MR. STAMP: No. My information is --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: What is it then?

17 MR. STAMP: My information is P2296 is 4D -- is certainly not

18 4D -- well, there are -- there's 4D15, which I think is the OSCE

19 statement. I'll just confirm that now. And there is another statement,

20 which is 4D14, which was not referred to.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: I've been told that 4D16 is the supplemental

22 information sheet that you submitted.

23 MR. STAMP: That's right.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: That 4D14 is the statement given to the OSCE.

25 MR. STAMP: That is correct.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: And that 4D15 is simply the P2296, the main

2 statement of the witness. What is it then?

3 MR. STAMP: 4D15 is another document.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I've been told that's another document

5 entirely. I don't even know if I've ever seen it.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, in that case it's unnecessary for us to deal

7 further with it.

8 Let's move ahead, Mr. Lukic.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, it is. You can leave that one out.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you once again, Your Honour.

11 Q. Mr. Loku, I have introduced myself, so let's move only to the

12 questions now.

13 First of all, I would like to ask you something before the NATO

14 bombing. Do you know that from the 23rd of February, 1999, until the 23rd

15 of March, 1999, from the municipality of Kacanik 3.209 persons went to

16 Macedonia? Are you aware of that? Do you know about the population from

17 your area going to Macedonia even before the NATO bombing?

18 A. No. I'm not aware of that, of the fact that the population was

19 going to Macedonia before the NATO bombing began.

20 Q. Thank you. Do you know that in the area that you lived in, as far

21 back as in February and the beginning of March there was pronounced

22 activity on the part of the KLA?

23 A. No. I haven't heard that there was KLA activity in this area. I

24 mean, in my village.

25 Q. Do you know about the neighbouring villages, that there was

1 increased activity on the part of the KLA?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you know a person named Loki Bashkim born in 1972 who lives --

4 or, rather, lived at the time in Kotlina, a member of the local police or,

5 rather, the local guards?

6 A. I don't know when this Bashkim Loku that I know who lived in

7 Kotlina was born.

8 Q. But you do know of a person with that name, don't you?

9 A. Yes, I do know a person with that name, but I have no information

10 about his activity.

11 Q. Did you know that he and 12 others were kidnapped by the KLA and

12 held in an improvised prison in Ivaja, and that that very person escaped

13 on the 8th of March when the fighting in Ivaja started?

14 A. I have no knowledge about that, and I don't believe that that is

15 true, because Bashkim lived in Kotlina, and I saw him then.

16 Q. Did you know that on the 28th of February, 1990 -- 1999, Bogoljub

17 Staletovic was killed, who was chief of police in Kacanik?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you know that when the fighting began on the 8th and the 9th

20 in Ivaja and your village was also encompassed by that fighting, did you

21 know that 150 persons were taken into custody, and after that, 130 were

22 subsequently released and the remaining 20 were held for further

23 questioning?

24 A. As to what happened in Ivaja on the 8th of March, this I don't

25 know. I wasn't there. I may only talk to you about what happened in

1 Kotline. And this thing, I don't know what you just said.

2 Q. The distance between Ivaja and your village is about 1.500 metres;

3 is that correct?

4 A. No. It is four to five kilometres away. It is true, however,

5 that on the 8th of March in Kotline we heard shots, but we didn't know

6 what happened.

7 Q. Thank you. I wanted to ask you something about the young men for

8 whom you said the -- joined the KLA. And you said that they joined the

9 KLA somewhere in the mountains. Do you have in mind the mountains in the

10 immediate vicinity of your village?

11 A. I didn't say that the youths became members of the KLA. I am

12 talking about my own village. I told you there were -- there were no

13 members of the KLA from my village.

14 Q. We shall back to it -- come back to it still at a later point.

15 As regards the two pits for which you claimed were supposed to be

16 wells, is it customary to dig two holes when looking for a well, which are

17 so close to each other in order to try and find water?

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, you will be trying our patience, I

19 think, if we're back in the territory of the wells.

20 We have to get an overall perspective on this case, and when one

21 counsel has explored a matter in some detail, it really -- it can't be

22 necessary, I think, to go over it further.

23 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, our position is those holes actually have

24 been dug during the war, or immediately before the war, that those were

25 not well holes, but I'll move on.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Why don't you just put that simple question. I

2 mean, you know, the question didn't give me any inclination that that's

3 what you were actually going to ask.

4 MR. LUKIC: Because the witness said that he had never saw those

5 holes before, so --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. No, Indeed.

7 MR. LUKIC: I just wanted to use his common knowledge and his --

8 him being living on the village. But I'll move on. Thank you.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Please.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Loku, today in the transcript, on page 7, you were quoted what

12 you stated in the Milosevic trial. "[In English] [Previous translation

13 continues] ... in our village, and whoever wished to join KLA ranks, he

14 might do so because KLA troops were in the mountains."

15 [Interpretation] That is why I asked you whether any of the young

16 men of your village joined the KLA in the mountains.

17 A. I gave you the answer earlier, and I'm clear about the question,

18 and I said this before this trial -- before the Milosevic trial in this

19 Tribunal. I meant that those who wished to join the KLA knew where to

20 find it, and they went there. And I may tell you also that from my

21 village there were KLA members, soldiers, who operated in other parts of

22 Kosovo.

23 Q. Thank you. Since you don't know what was taking place beyond the

24 borders of your village, may we conclude that you don't know what the

25 reason for military action was since you were not familiar with the -- any

1 actions undertaken by the KLA?

2 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't think, Mr. Lukic, the witness is claiming

3 to have knowledge about the purpose of military action, and it's not a

4 question that's going to assist us in any way.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. I will go briefly, Mr. Loku, to the spelling, and my learned

7 friend Mr. Ackerman asked you about this. I wanted to ask you the

8 following: Is it correct that in the Albanian language a hole or a pit is

9 spelled in both the singular and the plural -- oh, actually, I wanted to

10 ask you only about the singular, g-r-o-p-a. In the plural, it is

11 g-r-o-p-e. Am I correct, or have I been misinformed?

12 A. You are not informed. "Grope" is singular. "Gropa" is plural.

13 Q. So I put it the other way around. But fact is that the singular

14 and the plural are not spelled out the same way.

15 MR. STAMP: May I just check the record just in case it may be

16 important. The answer at 52:15, that's the last answer, 52:14 -- oh, it

17 has been corrected.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. When you saw those people who, according to you, were being taken

20 towards the pits, were they tied up in any way?

21 A. These people were holding their hands above their heads. I

22 couldn't see if they were tied up in any way. I only could see their

23 hands above their heads.

24 Q. Thank you. However, yesterday, in the updated version, on

25 page 69, line 24, this was entered: "[In English] The people who had

1 their hands tied were taken there."

2 [Interpretation] I just wanted to double-check with you.

3 Therefore, this portion of the transcript is incorrect, that their hands

4 were tied.

5 A. This part of the transcript is not correct. I meant to say that

6 the way I saw them holding their hands above their heads you might take it

7 to be tied. I couldn't say, you know. But it seemed to me that they were

8 holding their hands -- or I saw them holding their hands above their

9 heads.

10 Q. Thank you. Although you didn't approach the pits, did you know

11 whether they were used for any purpose?

12 A. These pits were not used for any purpose. I told you. These are

13 not the only pits that exist in the village, because as I said to you,

14 people dig holes or pits for water, because our villagers dig many holes

15 before they can find water. If they happened to dig one and two and don't

16 find any water, then they give it up.

17 Q. On the 24th of March, 1999, apart from some other pits, were

18 there -- apart from -- interpreter's correction. On the 24th of March,

19 1999, were there any other bodies found by any other pits?

20 A. On the 24th of March, that was the day that the bodies were found

21 on the two pits, but not on any other day.

22 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what time it was when all this was

23 taking place, as you put it, when those people were being taken to the

24 pits?

25 A. When those people were being taken to the pits was 1.00 or 2.00 in

1 the afternoon.

2 Q. In your statement in the English page 5, last paragraph, and the

3 sixth page, first paragraph; in the Albanian, page 6, paragraph 4, you

4 state that all this was taking place at around 3.30 in the afternoon.

5 Which of the two is correct?

6 A. I told you that it occur in the afternoon. From the place they

7 were taken, from the clinic to the pits, it took them over an hour.

8 Q. How far is the clinic from the pits?

9 A. As the crow flies not more than 150 metres.

10 Q. Thank you. What can we conclude, therefore? Were these people by

11 those pits at 3.30 or between 1.00 and 2.00?

12 JUDGE BONOMY: I mean, the last thing on earth people do in

13 situations that we're dealing with here, whether in military conflict or

14 otherwise, unexpected events happen, you don't -- when unexpected -- you

15 don't keep your eye on the clock so that seven years later you can tell

16 people the exact time at which it happened.

17 MR. LUKIC: I think that I have a reason for this, Your Honour.

18 I'll try to explain.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Since I read your statement only, I didn't have this time

22 designation at that time. In your statement dated the 4th of June, 1999,

23 in the English page 3, paragraph 4; in the Albanian page 4, paragraph 4;

24 and in the B/C/S, page 3, paragraph 3, you speak of the 9th of March,

25 which is two weeks prior to the event, and you state: "It was almost dark

1 by the time. My guess is that it was around 3.30 p.m."

2 What sort of visibility did you have at that time of day as you

3 observed the events unfold?

4 A. I think you've mixed up two days. The 4th of March refers to

5 something else, the 24th of March to something else. The 24th of March

6 refers to the incident at the pits. The 9th of March refer -- refers to

7 the first offensive.

8 Q. That is correct, Mr. Loku. I believe I stressed that, and I also

9 said that two weeks elapsed between the two events. And I don't think one

10 could enjoy much more daylight between the 9th and the 21st of March.

11 Therefore, as you were observing all this, what sort of visibility did you

12 have? Was it dark? Was it closer to midday? Could you please explain

13 this to me?

14 A. It was before dusk. Usually it became dark at 4.35 [as

15 interpreted]. It depended on the weather, because in March it still snows

16 with us. It depends on the weather, as I said. There is fog. There is

17 snow. Night comes earlier. If it's a bright day, it is brighter.

18 Q. Can you tell how much time passed from the moment when, according

19 to you, the people were being thrown into the pits?

20 MR. STAMP: Clarification for the transcript. I have at

21 line 55 -- 15, it being written that it usually became dark at 4.35, when

22 I thought I heard it was 4.30 or 5.00. Perhaps that could be clarified.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: You said, Mr. Loku, that it was before dusk.

24 Usually it became dark at. Now, what time did you give?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After 4.00 I said. I didn't look at

1 my clock, but it is known when dusk comes or when night comes with us.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's the penalty of asking questions,

3 Mr. Stamp. I heard 4.35, I may say, but I'm not -- but when I think about

4 it it's an odd answer as well, but anyway, let's carry on.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. I was trying to ask you something, and I believe I'll have to

7 repeat the question. From the moment when -- when according to you these

8 people were being thrown into the pits and the moment when you heard the

9 explosion, how much time did elapse?

10 A. After the bodies were thrown into the pits and after the explosion

11 I heard, it took some half an hour between the two events. So the

12 explosion was heard after half an hour.

13 Q. Thank you. During that half an hour, as you said on page 4,

14 line 12, you didn't see anyone except the soldiers and the police as you

15 stated. Therefore, according to you, there were no Serb civilians. Did

16 you see a woman in civilian clothes?

17 A. No. No.

18 Q. Did you see people taking photographs on the spot?

19 A. No. No.

20 Q. Today you were shown some photographs on which one can see holes

21 and dead bodies next to the holes. You told us that in your village of

22 Kotlina you didn't find any dead bodies by some other pits or holes. It

23 is our defence's position, Mr. Loku, and there is also official

24 documentation to corroborate it, that on that day, on the very spot there

25 was an official commission headed by an investigative judge. The judge

1 was a lady in civilian clothes. They carried out an on-site investigation

2 after the fighting that took place in which some KLA soldiers were killed.

3 It is our position that what you are stating is correct, that you

4 indeed were watching the event or, rather, had you been watching the event

5 you should have seen the investigation team before the explosion, since it

6 is clear that in the photographs we can see open holes which haven't been

7 covered with dirt. Do you still maintain --

8 MR. STAMP: I'm trying not to object, but we have gone on for more

9 than a half a page of transcript of assertions of the Defence position

10 without the witness being asked a specific question about each assertion

11 so he could address each one. I think really what the line of questioning

12 is did he see something or did he see something else.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, he's already said that he didn't see any

14 on-site investigation.

15 What is the question, Mr. Lukic?

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. Loku, is it still your position that you observed the event

18 from the moment when the people were brought to the pit, throughout the

19 execution, as you called it, and then it being thrown into the pit as well

20 as the process of covering those pits or closing them by using explosives?

21 A. We observed it during the entire time. We observed everything

22 that happened.

23 Q. Thank you. You say at that there were no KLA members in your

24 village.

25 A. Yes. I have repeat it had several times. It is true that there

1 weren't.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, I'm slightly distracted. Judge Chowhan

3 would like you to tell us whether these -- what we see in the picture are

4 caves rather than holes. What is your answer to that?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they are not caves. They are

6 holes. And I know the person who have dug up those holes in order to find

7 water in them.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

9 And, Mr. Lukic, can you -- explain to me what is the point you're

10 making about the investigating judge. Are you saying the investigating

11 team was there before the explosion?

12 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. It's obvious they've photographed

13 the holes with ladders inside.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: And then weren't there when the explosion took

15 place. Is that what you're saying?

16 MR. LUKIC: Our claim is that it's not done by Serb forces for

17 sure.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no. But you're saying an investigating team

19 had been there before there was an explosion.

20 MR. LUKIC: Of course, yes, Your Honour. They investigated and

21 found some dead bodies outside the wells.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Is this what you infer from the circumstances, or

23 have you got eyewitness evidence to tell you that?

24 MR. LUKIC: We have official documentation. We haven't spoken

25 with anybody regarding this specific issue, but we have the documentation.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: It's one of these circumstances, I imagine, where

2 the official documentation may not be entirely helpful for us having heard

3 what is purported to be eyewitness testimony.

4 Anyway, is there anything else you need to explore with the

5 witness or have we exhausted the topic?

6 MR. LUKIC: This topic I did, but I have a few more. Not too

7 long, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. We've dealt with that, that is that you said that there was no KLA

11 presence in your village, but after the fighting in Ivaja, obviously the

12 KLA was retreating. Do you know in what direction the KLA was retreating

13 from Ivaja?

14 A. No. I don't know the direction the KLA was retreating from Ivaja.

15 Q. In your village there are three hamlets, Mahala Dreshec,

16 Donja Reka and Reka e Poshtme and Gornja Reka or Reka e Eperme. Was a

17 single house destroyed in the hamlets of Donja Reka and Gornja Reka?

18 A. In the neighbourhoods of Reka e Poshtme there were no burnt houses

19 but there were burnt houses in other neighbourhoods as well as in the

20 centre of the village where the entire population was after the 24th of

21 March.

22 The other neighbourhoods were empty because, as I said, the

23 villagers were all gathered in the centre of the village where the school

24 was, where the mosque was. The other neighbourhoods were empty. The

25 people were in the biggest Mahala, or neighbourhood, which is in the

1 centre of the village.

2 Q. Do you know a person called Isuf Loku, father's name Nazmi from

3 Kotlina?

4 A. Yes, I do know him.

5 Q. In his statement that he gave to the OTP of this Tribunal in the

6 English version it's page 2, the last paragraph, and in the first

7 paragraph of the third page he claims that not a single house in the other

8 two neighbourhoods was destroyed in your village. Do you still stand by

9 your statement that some houses were destroyed in addition to Mahala

10 Dreshec, I mean outside Mahala Dreshec?

11 MR. STAMP: We're referring to a document here. I wonder if that

12 was furnished to us.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on just a second.

14 MR. STAMP: I was wondering if that was delivered to us in

15 accordance with the order of the Court.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic?

17 MR. LUKIC: No, it's not, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Why not?

19 MR. LUKIC: Technical problems.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: I would expect you to mention them before you

21 actually try to use it. I don't think it's courtesy to the Court just to

22 try to slip it through that way.

23 MR. LUKIC: I withdraw that question.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. In your statement, on page 3, paragraph 1, B/C/S; English version

2 page 3, paragraph 2; and Albanian version, page 3, paragraph 2, you

3 say: "Members of the Yugoslav army and police started shooting at the

4 convoy in order to warn them not to move on further."

5 How many persons in the convoy were killed after this shooting?

6 A. What you just said refers to 9th of March. This convoy had

7 approached Dreshec neighbourhood, and Isuf Loku that you mentioned earlier

8 is from this neighbourhood. Every house in this neighbourhood was burned.

9 The population was fired at, but there were no victims on that day. The

10 population was only prevented to go towards Gllobocica, towards the

11 border, and they had to return to the village.

12 Q. Mr. Loku, can we conclude, then, that there was no shooting, that

13 is to say, no firing at the column or convoy?

14 A. There was in firing at the Serb forces on the 9th of March or on

15 the 24th.

16 Q. Maybe I wasn't precise. Maybe I should repeat the question.

17 Is it correct that in actual fact no one fired at the column or

18 convoy? Had that kind of gunfire been opened at the convoy, somebody

19 would have had to get killed.

20 A. The gunfire wasn't opened at the people but in their vicinity, and

21 they were prevented from proceeding with their journey towards the border.

22 There were no persons that were killed on that day, but there were no

23 provocations either from their side.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: That's how the English has been translated, "in the

25 general direction."

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Thank you, Mr. Loku. I have no further questions for you.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila.

6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you. No questions, Your Honour.

7 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lazarevic -- sorry. Mr. Cepic.

9 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 [In English] I have some questions for this witness.

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Loku. I'm Djuro Cepic, one

13 of the Defence counsel in the Defence team of General Vladimir Lazarevic.

14 As for the village of Kotlina that you're from, is it also

15 subdivided into Gornja Kotlina and Donja Kotlina, as in upper and lower

16 Kotlina?

17 A. My village is called Kotlina, but there are neighbourhoods in the

18 village. You have the Dreshec neighbourhood, the neighbourhood of

19 Reka e Eperme, of Reka e Poshtme. These three neighbourhoods.

20 Q. And is there this subdivision into Gornja and Donja Kotlina, lower

21 and upper Kotlina?

22 A. No. There isn't such a subdivision.

23 Q. Thank you. You told us that your brother, Milaim, was killed

24 before the 24th of March, 1999. Could you tell us whether he was a

25 teacher by profession?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did he work in the school where you were principal?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was your member -- your brother Milaim a member of the KLA?

5 A. My brother Milaim was not a member of the KLA.

6 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, I have a statement which is in the

7 system, and I would like 5D7 to be shown. This is a statement made by an

8 Albanian given to the employees of the MUP of Serbia, that is to say the

9 investigation authorities, and it's on the electronic disclosure system

10 U004-1963.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.

12 MR. STAMP: It is with regret that I rise during the

13 cross-examination on points like this, but we really ought to be notified

14 about these documents. Perhaps we were and it's just slipped through, but

15 could counsel indicate whether or not we were notified, as instructed,

16 about these documents?

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

18 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, as you know, we sent it yesterday to the

19 system, but I also have enough hard copies with me.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, no. You are to give a list. Immediately

21 the witness is sworn you have to give a list to the Prosecutor of the

22 documents you may be relying upon. Whether they're in the system or not,

23 that's a separate requirement. Now, have you done that?

24 MR. CEPIC: Yesterday, Your Honour, as I know.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: You gave him a list saying, "We will rely upon

1 these documents in --"

2 MR. CEPIC: No, Your Honour. I just received the information that

3 we didn't send by e-mail to the Prosecutor.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Well, move on to something else, then.

5 MR. CEPIC: But we put that in electronic --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Doesn't matter. Move on. You've got to comply

7 with the rules here.

8 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 [Interpretation] Could we please have 3D86 displayed.

10 Q. Hebib Thaqi statement, born in 1965, given to the investigators of

11 the OTP on the 29th of May, 1999.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: What's the question? What's the question,

13 Mr. Cepic?

14 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that witness said that he

15 was a member of the KLA, and he speaks of what happened on that day in the

16 village of Kotlina. The person who gave this statement says that for

17 himself.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: What is your question to the witness?

19 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Do you know that the KLA was present in the village itself on that

21 day, the 24th, when the fighting took place?

22 JUDGE BONOMY: I will not allow you to ask that question which has

23 been answered repeatedly.

24 Now, what is the question you now want to ask the witness?

25 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

1 Q. [Interpretation] Do you know Mr. Hebib Thaqi?

2 A. I don't know a person by that name. There is no one with the last

3 name Thaqi in Kotline. Loku, Kuci, these are the last names you can find

4 in Kotlina. And if you ask me for people with these last names, I can

5 answer you.

6 Q. I would like to show the witness a part of this statement, which

7 is on page 3, paragraph 4.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Just ask him a question. What is the question you

9 want to ask him? Why do you need the statement? I'm trying to help you

10 to get on with your --

11 MR. CEPIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Four times I've asked you to ask the question.

13 MR. CEPIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. I understood

14 completely. I just tried to challenge some allegations from -- from the

15 statement with comparation with that statement. That was my intention,

16 Your Honour.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, ask him the question first of all, because he

18 might agree with what you're going to say without you putting a statement

19 to him. It's only when you've got something that he may disagree with

20 that a statement could ever arise. And it's even doubtful if you should

21 be using someone else's statement to challenge him anyway. You may say

22 that you've information, what's your position on this information? You

23 don't need to tell him unless he asks you, or unless the Prosecutor

24 insists that you have a foundation that's disclosed.

25 MR. CEPIC: I understood, Your Honour. I do apologise if I

1 disturbed this Honourable Trial Chamber, but ...

2 May I continue, Your Honour?

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Please do.

4 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.

5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Loku, are you aware of the fact that on the

6 23rd of March, 1999, in the territory of the entire Federal Republic of

7 Yugoslavia a state of imminent threat of war was declared?

8 A. From 9th to the 24th of March, we were in darkness in our village.

9 We didn't know what was going on in our own village, let alone the entire

10 territory of Yugoslavia.

11 Q. Did you know that an invention by NATO was being prepared?

12 A. We didn't know what was being prepared by NATO, but on the 25th of

13 March when I went to Macedonia, I heard from other citizens that NATO had

14 intervened in Kosova, and I was happy to hear that because that made --

15 that meant that other people who had remained in Kosova would be safe.

16 Q. You will agree with me that it's a bit illogical that when the

17 NATO interventions start by way of bombing we have movement by tanks,

18 right?

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Argumentative. It's not for him to work out for

20 you the logics of this. He's here to give evidence of fact.

21 MR. CEPIC: Yes, Your Honour.

22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Loku, did you support the KLA in any way?

23 JUDGE BONOMY: I won't allow you to ask that question again. It's

24 been repeatedly asked.

25 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I haven't got any further

1 question.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

3 MR. CEPIC: And next time we will carry on about electronic

4 disclosure system and e-court.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Cepic.

6 Do you have re-examination, Mr. Stamp?

7 MR. STAMP: Just one or two questions.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, let's have them.

9 Re-examination by Mr. Stamp:

10 Q. You were shown your OSCE statement and a passage was cited from

11 it. Not your statement, but the record of an interview in which you

12 said -- or it was read to you that the group from the ambulance building

13 was forced to walk to a well near the ambulance building, and later on in

14 cross-examination you said you not only marked the ambulance building on a

15 map, but you said that from the clinic to the holes was about 150 metres.

16 When you say "the clinic," is that the same as the ambulance building?

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, that's clear from your examination-in-chief.

18 It's clear from the cross-examination. I don't think that question needs

19 to be answered either. Thank you.

20 MR. STAMP:

21 Q. That being clear, Mr. Loku, can I take it, then, that your

22 evidence or your evidence here today is substantially consistent with the

23 record from the OSCE interview report in which you say that the men were

24 taken from the ambulance building towards the hole where they were killed?

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I expect six objections to that question.

1 That's not for the witness to answer that.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: That's right.

3 MR. STAMP:

4 Q. You said that the record of interview to the OSCE is incorrect to

5 the extent that it is incomplete. Now, what I want to ask you is this:

6 Is it correctly recorded here as read to you that you told them that the

7 men were taken from the ambulance building to the hole where they were

8 thrown? Is that correct?

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, I object, because that's not

10 what the report says. It doesn't say anything about a hole. It talks

11 about a well. So if he's going to ask him about what it says, he ought to

12 at least, you know, quote it correctly.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: We've had enough of this, Mr. Stamp. If you've

14 another subject to deal with, move on to that, please.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

16 MR. STAMP: Thank you.

17 Q. You said, and I'm trying to find the quote, but since I can't --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we'll take our break now if that's going to

19 help you find it, but I thought we might have got to the next witness by

20 now.

21 However, we'll be back at 6.00 in the hope that we can make rapid

22 progress.

23 --- Recess taken at 5.36 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 6.05 p.m.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.

1 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, before he proceeds, may I bring to

3 your attention what may or may not be a serious problem in the transcript?

4 I hate to do this, but it could be serious.

5 If you go, like, half way up to where we would get to page 36 and

6 we take a recess at 3.49 p.m., it then -- and I'm supposed to be coming

7 back and cross-examining at that point. Instead it throws in apparently

8 the beginning of the cross-examination of Mr. Visnjic from earlier in the

9 day and starts over at paragraph 1 at page 1. And then it goes down

10 through page 2 and starts over at page 1 again where it picks up my

11 cross-examination at page 2, line 21, and apparently leaves out some of

12 the cross-examination that I had begun at that point. In other words,

13 there's just -- it looks like a part of my cross has been replaced by a

14 part of Mr. Visnjic's cross, which probably isn't a bad thing because he

15 may have been doing a better job than I was anyhow. In any event, it

16 looks like some of mine is missing and I don't know how that's fixable.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman. Well, that's for those

18 dealing with the transcripts to resolve, and we'll get a report from them

19 on how it is resolved. Nothing we can do at this minute on it, but thank

20 you for alerting us.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Let me just make sure my concern is understood. If

22 we let the witness go and find out that that part of cross-examination was

23 completely lost, I don't think we can get it back without having the

24 witness here. That's my concern.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that will depend on the recording of the

1 evidence as well, which is a separate matter. It would also depend on the

2 notes I've been taking as we go along because they may be good enough

3 without -- because I take my own notes as we go. I don't rely on the

4 electronic --

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, that's true. And we do have a recording that

6 we could replay.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: But we'll get a report and deal with it

8 expeditiously. Thank you.

9 Mr. Stamp.

10 MR. STAMP: Mr. Loku, you said that there was a council that

11 organised reburial of persons in the cemetery in Kacanik. What council

12 were you referring to?

13 A. It was a council on the reburial of the victims, because there was

14 a ceremony organised to bury the victims, and people came there to express

15 condolences to our village. People from all over came to the place to

16 attend the burial ceremony. So this is the council I meant.

17 Q. Very well. You said that they were buried there because it

18 contributed to the national cause. You also said that they may have been

19 buried there if they were killed in fighting. But you also said that if

20 you had been killed that you don't know where you would have been buried.

21 Can I ask you to clarify that? Do you know of the criteria that was used

22 by these persons to determine who would be reburied in the cemetery at

23 Kacanik?

24 A. I don't know the criteria they used because I was not a member of

25 the council.

1 MR. STAMP: I have nothing further. Thank you, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: 4D13 and 14 we will mark for identification pending

3 submission by Mr. Ackerman of the marked extracts from the transcript that

4 he seeks to have admitted, and allowing a period, a very brief period for

5 others to comment if they have any remarks to make on the question whether

6 they should be admitted or not.

7 MR. STAMP: Your Honour, if it's of any help, we would not at this

8 stage object to the --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: No, I appreciate that. But I think it was very

10 sensible to try to identify the bits that really matter and not to have

11 the whole transcript produced to no good end.

12 I'm sorry it gives you a little extra work, Mr. Ackerman, but I

13 understood the work was largely done.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the work is completely done. It's

15 here. I know every page that I would like to have referred to, and I

16 could either put it in the record now or I could extract those pages and

17 make them a separate exhibit.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no. If you can just read them off just now

19 that would save everybody and another rain forest.

20 Pages 1928 through 1932. 1936, 1937.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: I think you said through 1932, not 1931. Yeah.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: 28 through 31. 1928 through 1931 [sic]. 1936

23 through 38. 1940 and 41 and 42. 2002, 2004, 2005, 2015, 2018, 2026.

24 I'm just checking to make sure the transcript is correct. And

25 it's 4D12 and 13, Your Honour, that the full transcripts are in. And

1 that's it.

2 Thank you.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

4 Mr. Stamp.

5 MR. STAMP: The problem arises now that some of them were not

6 referred to with the witness, and even in respect to at least one of them

7 that was referred to, I had considered re-examination using the transcript

8 to put that aspect of it in better context, and then I thought it would be

9 better to adopt the suggestion that the transcript goes in and not having

10 to go through all of these.

11 Now, some of these references may well be along a legitimate line

12 that the Defence might want to take, but if we explore them we might find

13 that we would also want the Court to consider other relevant bits of the

14 evidence to have everything in context.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, say that again. If we explore them --

16 MR. STAMP: Some of these references.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. I have no objection to that. I said we

18 would allow you a limited time to make submissions on it, if you wish, so

19 that you can have other pieces added. So we'll allow 48 hours for you to

20 make a submission if you wish other parts of the transcript added.

21 MR. STAMP: Very well.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: But rather than have the whole thing without having

23 any real focus at all.

24 So we'll allow you until the end of the week, on Friday afternoon,

25 to make any submission to us that you wish. You can do it either orally

1 or in writing. And if any other counsel feels the need, then he or she

2 should do so, but bearing the mind the concern we have to be as economical

3 as possible.

4 Mr. Visnjic.

5 MR. VISNJIC: No, I don't have actually some things which is

6 connected with this witness, but I just --

7 [Interpretation] I just wanted to ask you for your leave to

8 provide you with further clarifications once the witness has left the

9 courtroom. This concerns some documents unrelated to his testimony.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

11 Well, Mr. Loku, that completes your evidence. Thank you for

12 coming to the Tribunal again to give it. You're now free to leave.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Visnjic.

16 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the first clarification

17 concerns 3D74 being the report, the forensic report concerning the

18 location.

19 What I wanted to mention is an explanation as to why the

20 photographs we used are of such poor quality, namely we asked the National

21 Council for Documentation relating to the municipality of Kacanik. Among

22 the documents we received, there is a file missing pertaining to Kotlina.

23 What we received instead is a note in which one can read that the entire

24 file was put at the disposal of the National Council.

25 On the other hand, in the OTP database this document is in black

1 and white, and at the same time it was used by Milosevic Defence. It was

2 put through two of his witnesses.

3 What I showed you today is an MFI copy from the Milosevic case.

4 That is why this copy is black and white. What we will try to do on our

5 part is to try to get coloured copies which would probably clarify what we

6 were trying to see.

7 As regards 3D72, this is a photograph of the KLA cemetery.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you go on to that, I don't think the witness

9 was -- was handicapped in any way by the quality of the photographs

10 in 3D74, but I take the point you make about the quality. I mean, he did

11 say with --

12 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No. We may have had some additional

13 questions for the witness. It wasn't to his detriment in any case.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

15 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] The next exhibit is 3D72, being a

16 photograph of the cemetery on the Kacanik-Urosevac road. As you were able

17 to see, the photographs were taken from a distance, from outside the

18 cemetery. What I was able to do was to take photographs of only a part of

19 the tombstones, and this happened quite accidentally because the column we

20 were part of on the 23rd -- on the 24th of May stopped there to take a

21 short rest, this being the crossroads which we were meant to take. We

22 were not allowed to enter the cemetery, and we were not allowed to enter

23 another place where we also wanted to take some photographs from up close.

24 As regards the names of Loku and the rest, we came across those by

25 chance, because once we took the photographs, we were able to realise that

1 some of the names are also mentioned in the indictment as well.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Perhaps you should make it clear who didn't allow

3 you to enter the cemetery.

4 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Well, concerning the delegation,

5 there was an interpreter. He introduced himself -- or she introduced

6 herself as an interpreter, and she -- or he explained the main person in

7 charge of security that it would be inappropriate for us to enter the

8 premises. And this happened on two occasions on that trip.

9 The entire business of taking photographs happened by chance.

10 Apart from the people there, there was someone from The Hague Tribunal. I

11 believe someone from the OTP being part of the column. And this piece of

12 information that we were at the cemetery and that we took photographs is

13 nothing secret. It wasn't a covert operation or nothing that could be

14 implied as such.

15 As regards 3D88, these are photographs of the village of Kotlina.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] These were taken on the 24th of May

18 in the afternoon around 2.00 p.m. We were in this village where the two

19 pits are, and this is the only explanation I can provide at the moment.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: These are the sort of documents that when you come

21 to present your own case you will hopefully be considering as candidates

22 for presentation through written evidence or by stipulation.

23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Certainly. I agree, Your Honour. I

24 wanted to make use of this witness to try and confirm some locations,

25 because once in the field one is often uncertain what is what, and I'm

1 quite happy to have received some answers from this witness.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Stamp, for not the next witness but the

3 one after that there's an application for the evidence to be taken in

4 closed session, and that application is obviously late and requires

5 dispensation of -- from compliance with -- with the rules. Is this

6 something you're familiar with, or is it Mr. Hannis who is dealing with

7 that?

8 MR. STAMP: Mr. Hannis -- Mr. Hannis will be more familiar with

9 it, but I might be able to address any concerns.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.

11 Mr. O'Sullivan, obviously if this witness is potentially going to

12 start giving evidence tomorrow, or even on Thursday, we have to decide to

13 deal with the application and deal with it, or if there are good reasons

14 to refuse to deal with it. Is there a common Defence position in relation

15 to this application?

16 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I think there can be by first thing tomorrow

17 morning.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. It's one of these situations where between

19 you you may know more about the situation -- more about the circumstances

20 of the witness than -- than we need to know and can come -- can come to an

21 arrangement. If you can't, then obviously we will have to hear

22 submissions about it if there's a willingness at least to have the matter

23 dealt with with a view to hearing the evidence in the course of this week.

24 So we'll deal with that matter first thing tomorrow morning, if

25 that's convenient. Sorry, tomorrow afternoon. First thing tomorrow

1 afternoon. And meanwhile we shall start the evidence of the next

2 witness. Who is?

3 MR. STAMP: Sejdi Lami.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Wait a minute, sorry. We have another comment.

5 Mr. Ackerman.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I just want to make a very brief

7 observation. I'm not sure that I have a solution to it.

8 With many of these witnesses we're using their witness statements,

9 like in this one, P2296 is coming in basically as a substitute in many

10 cases for their live testimony which, you know, obviously saves us time

11 and is a good thing in many cases. But the thing that I began to become

12 concerned about today was on I think every occasion where I referred the

13 witness to this statement as is to what he'd said in the statement he said

14 no, I didn't say that, or that's a bad translation or something like

15 that. And then one begins to wonder to what extent we really can rely on

16 what's contained in these statements, because I know that both the

17 Prosecution, the Defence and the Chamber will tend in the future to rely

18 on everything that in here that wasn't talked about as being basically the

19 testimony of the witness under oath. And I'm just starting to worry about

20 the credibility of it all. And I don't have a suggestion or a solution.

21 I've just become concerned about it today.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, it's something on which we will reflect,

23 particularly the point that you mention about the alleged mistranslation,

24 and we will try to give some guidance on this as soon as possible.

25 Now, Mr. Stamp. The witness is Sejdi Lami; is that right?

1 MR. STAMP: Lami, yes, it is.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: And this is a 92 bis witness.

3 MR. STAMP: Indeed, it is.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: And can you tell me the paragraphs of the

5 indictment?

6 MR. STAMP: That is paragraph 72(k)(3), 75(k)(2), and Schedule K.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Lami.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration by

12 reading aloud the document which will now be placed before you?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I solemnly declare that I will

14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 WITNESS: SEJDI LAMI

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

18 Now, Mr. Lami, we already have in writing information you have

19 given to the Office of the Prosecutor. The purpose of this afternoon's

20 hearing and tomorrow, you will continue to give evidence tomorrow, is to

21 enable the counsel representing the parties here, that's the Prosecution

22 and the accused, to ask you questions either to add to the information

23 you've already given, to clarify it, or to challenge it. But asking I'd

24 ask you to have particularly in mind, it doesn't help us to hear again the

25 same information as we already have before us. It's important for us to

1 get as much Information, especially new information, as we can. So it

2 would be a great help to everyone, including yourself, if you will listen

3 very carefully to every question and confine your answer to the particular

4 point that the question relates to.

5 The first person to ask you questions will be for the Prosecution,

6 and that is Mr. Stamp.

7 Mr. Stamp.

8 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Examination by Mr. Stamp:

10 Q. Could you please state your name and spell your surname as well.

11 A. My last name is spelled L-a-m-e [as interpreted], and first name

12 is Sejdi, S-e-j-d-i.

13 Q. Very well. We have your last name spelled here as L-a-m-e. That

14 is not correct, is it?

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: It's certainly correct on the transcript, I think.

17 L-a-m-i.

18 MR. STAMP: Right.

19 Q. But I see, Mr. Lami, that there may well be a clarification that

20 you want to make in respect to the spelling of your last name.

21 A. It's not a problem at all. In all my documents, it's L-a-m-a,

22 Sejda.

23 Q. And -- but you spelled it as L-a-m-i. What is correct and how do

24 you explain the difference?

25 A. I am called Lami Sejdi, but in my documents it's Lama Sejda.

1 Q. Very well. Do you recall -- before I get to that, where do you

2 live, sir? From where are you from? Where are you from?

3 A. In the municipality of Kacanik.

4 Q. And in which village in Kacanik?

5 A. The village of Vata.

6 Q. And did you give a statement to a member of the OTP on the -- in

7 July 2000, in respect of events that occurred there in 1999?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you came here to testify, that is you came to The Hague to

10 testify about those events in January 2002, and on that occasion you --

11 you declared -- you gave a declaration that the statement was true and

12 correct before a certifying officer. Do you remember that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. That 92 bis statement and the package, complete package, for the

15 record, is P02271.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

17 MR. STAMP:

18 Q. In your statement at page 4 in the English version, and since you

19 don't have it I'll just read the relevant part to you, and I'm referring

20 to the second full paragraph of page 4 in the English version, you say

21 that one Avdi Bajgora went to the village and he had a meeting with a man

22 from the village who was a member of the SPM [sic] party and his name was

23 Murtezan Lami. That is what is in the statement. Is there any

24 clarification you would like to make in respect of that?

25 A. May I speak now?

1 Q. Yes, please.

2 A. He was not a representative of the Serbs this Murtezan Lami, but

3 he was a poor man, the person that Avdi Bajgora visited.

4 Q. When you say "was not a representative of the Serbs," do you mean

5 that he was not a member or was he a member of the SPS party, the person

6 that Avdi Bajgora met?

7 A. He was not a member because he couldn't be a member of either

8 Albanian or Serbian party. He was a poor man. He had nine children. He

9 had no interest whatsoever to become a member of any party.

10 Q. Thank you. At page 2 of your statement in the English version

11 which I'll read to you again because you don't have the translation, and

12 I'm referring to the last paragraph of that page, Your Honours, you said

13 that one week before the Serb attack on the village on the 13th of April,

14 1999, some 20 KLA soldiers came and established themselves in a house.

15 They started digging some trenches there.

16 Can I ask you, how far was this house that the KLA soldiers went

17 to from your house? And you can approximate.

18 A. May I speak now?

19 Q. Yes, please.

20 A. About 2 to 300 metres. This house was far from my house.

21 Q. Now, did these KLA persons who went to that house, 20 of them you

22 said, were they in uniform or were they not in uniform or partly so?

23 A. Half of them in uniforms and the other half in civilian clothes.

24 Q. Where did they start the excavation of this trench? Can you say

25 where that was in relation to the village?

1 A. In -- it's above my house in Lama neighbourhood.

2 Q. About how far from the village were they digging this trench?

3 A. About 200 metres above my house, in a hill.

4 Q. Can I take you now to paragraph 4 of page 4 of the English version

5 of your statement, and here you speak of a killing of four persons, and

6 you said in that statement: "I was hiding in a gorge by the stream

7 together with my family. From there I could not observe the soldiers.

8 Later I heard that the soldiers captured four men from the village. The

9 men were brought up and down to the village four times and on the fourth

10 trip they were killed. My wife told me that she heard the four men -- my

11 wife told me that she heard the men screaming before they were killed."

12 Q. Could you tell us firstly exactly what it is your wife told you

13 she observed?

14 A. My wife said to me, because I was in this stream about 10, 15

15 metres below while my wife was in a meadow where there were about 150

16 people, children, elderly persons. So she said to me they captured these

17 four men. They walked them up and down the village three, four times, and

18 wounded them and ultimately killed them and that she heard them screaming.

19 Q. Did she tell you whether or not she saw anything?

20 A. No. She saw them because they were on a hill about 300 metres up,

21 and she -- she saw that. As the crow flies is the distance.

22 Q. How far was she away from you at the time?

23 A. At that time, my wife was, as the crow flies, 300 metres.

24 Q. From? How far was she from you?

25 A. From me she was 10, 15 metres far because I was in a stream below

1 there, and they couldn't see me and I couldn't see them.

2 Q. Okay. If you can, can you just tell us what it is she said that

3 she saw?

4 A. My wife saw them when they were captured while they were still

5 alive, how they were walked and how they were killed. She could see that

6 because this was on a hill up. You could see from there. And when we

7 went there after three hours, after they withdrew, we found three dead

8 bodies and another one which was about 20 metres away from the other

9 three. He was stabbed and his intestines were out.

10 Q. Did she say how they were killed and by whom?

11 A. She didn't know who killed them because you cannot recognise the

12 face of a person who killed them from 300 metres but you could see that it

13 was army. They had camouflage uniforms.

14 Q. Very well. Can I take you finally to page 5, paragraph 3 of your

15 statement, the English version, and I'll read it to you again and ask you

16 about it. You said in addition to the four persons that you spoke of

17 earlier in your statement: "Later that day or the same day there were

18 brought seven more bodies to the village. They were killed in the

19 surrounding neighbourhoods of Kaka and Tifeku. But since the cemetery is

20 here, they were brought to the same house as the others."

21 Can you remember the names of any of the other seven who were

22 brought to your village?

23 A. I remember some of the names but not all of them. Those that were

24 close to my house I remember them, and those that were further from my

25 house I don't know their names. I don't remember them now at this moment.

1 I know the name, the father's name, of those brothers there.

2 Q. Okay. What are the names of those that you know of the seven that

3 were brought later?

4 A. The first that was brought was the son of Osman Caka. His name is

5 Ilir. Fifteen years old he was. The second is Jakup Caka, a cousin of

6 the first. The third is Shyqyri. He's from Gacica but he's an in-law of

7 the above two who were sheltering there with the Caka family. Then

8 Ramadan Xhokli who was also sheltering with the Caka family. I don't know

9 if he is a member or not, but personally I've seen him in civilian

10 clothes. And Rahim Lami, and I'm a witness to him. Hebib Lami, Brahim

11 Lami, Jakup Caka.

12 Rahim Lami had his two eyes gouged out by those who perpetrated

13 his killing. Hebib Lami had the sign of cross made on his chest. Brahim

14 Lami was killed on his forehead, and Jakup had about seven or eight

15 bullets in his body and he was stabbed.

16 There are others as well, but I don't know their names. I've only

17 stated in my statement about these four persons.

18 Q. All right. Thank you.

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the four names that

20 the witness mentioned in the end.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, they're in the statement, I think.

22 The witness actually gave seven names there, I think, having said

23 that he couldn't remember all the names. Are we sure that we're hearing

24 the names of the seven bodies brought to the village?

25 MR. STAMP: May I just clarify that with the witness.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.

2 MR. STAMP:

3 Q. Slowly if you can, sir, can you just name those persons among the

4 seven that were brought to the village, if you remember their names, and

5 do so slowly, please.

6 A. The first is Ilir Osman Caka, Osman being father's name.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: I have no doubt we've got seven names. I don't

8 need to hear them again. I just wanted to be sure that we're talking

9 about same thing in view of the introduction that he couldn't remember all

10 the names. And then we -- we've got a reference to 11 bodies later. Are

11 they different? Are you going to --

12 MR. STAMP: Yes, yes. I probably should clarify that.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. If you go on to that that will make it

14 clear.

15 MR. STAMP:

16 Q. You mentioned the names in your statement of Mahmut Caka, Hebib

17 Lami, Rahim Lami, and Brahim Lami. These were the persons that your wife

18 observed being killed and whose bodies you later found in the village; is

19 that correct?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: All is clear now. Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

22 MR. STAMP:

23 Q. And the other three bodies you mentioned were those that were

24 later brought from the neighbouring areas of the village?

25 JUDGE BONOMY: He mentioned seven others. He's given you seven in

1 addition to the first four.

2 MR. STAMP: [Microphone not activated].

3 JUDGE BONOMY: You've got Ilir Caka. In fact, I can't read my

4 transcript when I go back when it's at the end of the page. It then gives

5 you --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ilir. It's with an R in the end.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. It's been transcribed wrongly. It then gives

8 you a second one, who is a cousin of his. He then gives you the third

9 one, who is from Gacica. Then there was -- I mean, there are seven names

10 there. So we now have 11 names.

11 MR. STAMP: [Microphone not activated]. Four names --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there are 11, but I don't know

13 the names of all of them.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: I see. Well, I don't know why I can't get to the

15 end of my transcript so I can't read what I've got in front of me, but I'm

16 convinced there are seven names there.

17 MR. STAMP: Yes, there are, but the latter four names he went on

18 to mention those but those are the same four that he has just said were

19 the ones his wife observed being killed that he saw in the village. I was

20 asking about another seven persons who were later brought to his village,

21 and of those seven he could only remember three of their names.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know where the others were

23 wounded. I do know some of their names but I don't know all of them. I

24 can tell you --

25 JUDGE BONOMY: It's my mistake. I follow that now. Thank you

1 very much.

2 MR. STAMP:

3 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Lami. There may be some other questions

4 required of you.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.

6 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, Your Honour. General Pavkovic,

7 Mr. Milutinovic, Mr. Sainovic, General Lukic, General Lazarevic, and

8 General Ojdanic.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.

10 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman:

11 Q. Mr. Lami, my name is John Ackerman. I represent General Pavkovic

12 in this case. I have very few questions to ask you, and I think with the

13 exception the first one that you can answer them very easily by either

14 saying either yes or no, and if you do that we'll be finished in just a

15 very short time.

16 In your statement at paragraph 9, you talk about the KLA in your

17 village and the activities they were carrying on there, and you say that

18 on the 12th of April, the day before the attack on your village, they were

19 ordered to get out of the village. Can you tell us who ordered them to

20 get out of the village?

21 A. I have no information why they went away from the village.

22 Q. So is it that you don't know they were even ordered? You don't

23 know about an order?

24 A. I couldn't go there and talk with them because my house where they

25 were staying was 300 metres away from my house.

1 Q. And the answer is you don't know and that's all I'm asking.

2 There were 11 persons killed in or in the vicinity of your village

3 and you didn't see the killing of any of those persons, did you? You can

4 just say yes or no.

5 A. No.

6 Q. And the only thing you know about the identity of people who

7 killed some of these people was what your wife had told you. Isn't that

8 correct?

9 A. She told me about four people, and I know them.

10 Q. You told us a moment ago that the people who committed these

11 offences were wearing camouflage uniforms and that they were army. The

12 only reason you identify them as army is because they were wearing

13 camouflage uniforms. You didn't actually determine that they were actual

14 serving members of the army of Yugoslavia, did you?

15 A. Those who killed these four were the army of Yugoslavia. You

16 could see their green uniform.

17 Q. Yes. You make that conclusion based upon the uniform they were

18 wearing, don't you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Of the people who were killed there that day, you later learned

21 that one of them was a KLA member who was then buried in the KLA cemetery,

22 didn't you?

23 A. He was not buried in the KLA cemetery but in the cemetery of the

24 civilians where the others were also buried. He was wearing no KLA

25 uniform. He was dressed in civilian clothes. And he went to find a place

1 to shelter his children.

2 Q. But he was reburied in the KLA cemetery, wasn't he? This is

3 Ramadan Xhokli.

4 A. He was reburied after three months after we returned from Italy.

5 He was reburied by UNMIK, and he was reburied at the heroes' cemetery.

6 Q. What you -- what you said in your statement, I just want to read

7 the language and you tell me if this is true. "One of the 11 bodies which

8 was initially buried in the cemetery, Ramadan Xhokli, was reburied in the

9 KLA cemetery because he had been an active KLA member."

10 That's true, isn't it?

11 A. Yes, that's true.

12 Q. And to be eligible to be buried in a KLA cemetery, one had to be

13 an active KLA member, didn't one?

14 A. He was helping the KLA with foodstuffs. He was a member but

15 responsible for providing foodstuffs.

16 Q. Yes. But my question was: To be eligible to be buried in a KLA

17 cemetery, one had to be an active KLA member. That's true, isn't it?

18 A. Maybe he was. I don't know. He's dead now. He's dead now.

19 Q. All right.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm finished. Thank you.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.

22 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Petrovic.

24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic. Mr. Ivetic?

1 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I don't think we have any questions for

2 this witness at all.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

4 Mr. Cepic.

5 MR. CEPIC: Just a couple questions, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, or good evening, sir, Mr. Lami.

9 I'm Djuro Cepic, one of the Defence counsel on the Defence team of General

10 Vladimir Lazarevic.

11 You said that on the morning of the 13th of April the army came to

12 your village and that is to say in the early morning hours. It was still

13 dark, right?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. And it was a bit foggy, right?

16 A. No, it wasn't a bit foggy.

17 Q. But you could not see very well because it was early morning and

18 it was still dark. You couldn't really see the faces of these persons who

19 were entering the village, right?

20 A. People came by cars and went and hid in the mountains. At 5.00 in

21 the morning, it was rather dark. But when the offensive started, it

22 started at 6.30 and lasted until 8.00 in the morning.

23 Q. No. I'm asking you about the morning when they were coming before

24 the offensive. You couldn't see them because it was early in the morning

25 and it was still dark, right?

1 A. No. We saw only the cars. We couldn't see the people.

2 Q. You couldn't see any markings on those cars, right?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Thank you. No further questions.

5 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I haven't got any further

6 questions.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Cepic.

8 Mr. Visnjic.

9 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would have some

10 questions for this witness which are clarifications basically, but I have

11 been informed that my exhibits are in the system. It won't take too long,

12 10 or 15 minutes, but I'm not sure they're in the system already, so it

13 will be easier for us to deal with it tomorrow for 10 or 15 minutes. If

14 it upsets your schedule in a serious way, I would be prepared to withdraw

15 the questions I have, but I would need some additional clarification, so I

16 would appreciate it if I could do it tomorrow.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: I didn't move my lips, Mr. Visnjic. Yeah, we'll do

18 it tomorrow.

19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lami, it's going to be necessary for you to

21 come back tomorrow. We have to finish now for the evening. I don't think

22 you'll be kept too long in the morning, but -- sorry, tomorrow afternoon.

23 I'm sorry. You need to come back tomorrow afternoon when the evidence

24 will begin at 2.15, but I don't think you'll be kept for long.

25 Meanwhile, it's very important that between now and then you don't

1 speak to anyone at all about your evidence, either the evidence you've

2 given or the evidence that you may yet give here. Talk about anything

3 else, but please keep off the subject of the evidence, and we shall see

4 you again tomorrow at 2.15.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I've noticed sometimes when I was not

8 in the courtroom but watching the transcript that you have occasionally

9 commented on the inefficiency of the cross-examinations and I just wanted

10 to give you an opportunity to comment on the efficiency of the one that

11 just took place, if you want to, but you don't need to if you don't want

12 to, but I thought you might want that opportunity.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm very grateful for what's happened today. In

14 general, I think that I can detect a distinct effort being made to bring

15 cross-examination within reasonable bounds. Obviously it's difficult to

16 ensure that that's done completely, but I recognise the effort, and

17 certainly in the case of this witness that was extremely efficient.

18 But we are going to have to look more broadly at the whole way in

19 which the case is proceeding. If may be necessary to have set aside time

20 for a -- just a procedural hearing or a Status Conference probably before

21 we have the break in October, so that when we come back if there are to be

22 changes in the guidelines then they're in force by that date.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: I really would like to emphasise something I said

24 to you earlier because it's absolutely true from a lot of experience in my

25 life. If you have prepared lawyers, they tend to move a lot more

1 efficiently, and we have had recently had a lot more time to prepare

2 because we've been working half days and we're starting communicate with

3 each other better, and that's why you're seeing better cross-examinations,

4 and that leads into a motion that I've filed today which you might want to

5 consider.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: I knew there was bound to be an ulterior motive for

7 you rising to your feet.

8 I am not entirely convinced at the moment but remain to be

9 persuaded about the merits of what you've just said and what's in your --

10 in your motion, but we shall debate that at a later stage, hopefully quite

11 soon.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Sorry for keeping you further. Just

15 one minute, please.

16 I would like to add something to what Mr. Ackerman said. I would

17 like to ask you kindly when you assess cross-examinations, would you

18 please bear in mind a very special situation that we have to deal with in

19 this case and that is the lack of documents and space and inaccessibility

20 of both, our impossibility to reach documents that are in a sealed-off

21 space for us. We cannot talk to people.

22 If you look at other cases in this Tribunal that have to with

23 Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, you have to bear in mind that Defence

24 counsel in those cases can go to Zagreb, can have a look at documents,

25 they can travel to Sarajevo and so on and so forth. We here have a

1 special situation, whereas our possibilities are restricted in terms of

2 investigation and exploring certain issues, and our cross-examination

3 therefore suffers due to that.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that may be an issue that has to be discussed

5 a bit further, but now is not the moment for that. There will be an

6 opportunity when we are looking at the programme ahead for you to raise

7 issues of that nature.

8 2.15 tomorrow.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.05 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 13th day

11 of September, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.

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