1 Wednesday, 11 October 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Dashi.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Your evidence will now continue. Please bear in

9 mind that the solemn declaration to tell the truth which you made at the

10 beginning of your evidence continues to apply to that evidence today. Now

11 Mr. Scully will continue with his examination.

12 Mr. Scully.

13 MR. SCULLY: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 WITNESS: MUHARREM DASHI [Resumed]

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Examination by Mr. Scully: [Continued]

17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Dashi.

18 A. Good morning.

19 Q. On Monday we were discussing a KLA unit in Stagovo village. Did

20 you personally ever assist that unit?

21 A. I said earlier that this was something that we spontaneously --

22 that was spontaneously created, and I didn't know what was going on

23 elsewhere.

24 Q. Directing your attention to the unit that spontaneously formed

25 within the village, did you have any role with that unit?

1 A. No, absolutely not. I had this observation point. We only

2 observed from that point.

3 Q. Who was observing from the observation point?

4 A. At the observation point there were four shifts, myself and

5 Muhamet and Shabedin did one shift of four hours, but there were other

6 people who came and did other shifts.

7 Q. And those people who were at the observation point, were they

8 different from the people who were in the KLA unit?

9 A. We were all civilians. We did not have guns. I told you earlier

10 we had only one M-48, but we never used it.

11 Q. And did you have uniforms?

12 A. No, absolutely not. Not only myself but the others as well in the

13 observation point. Nobody had uniforms.

14 Q. And you said you had an M-48 rifle. Did that weapon work?

15 A. We did not know because we never tried it, but we saw that later,

16 that the barrel was not in order, in working order. So after the

17 offensive it -- we saw that it would not have worked. That rifle was

18 never used. It wouldn't function even if it were used.

19 Q. On what date did you and these other civilians start your work at

20 the observation post?

21 A. I can't remember the date, but it was about 10 to 12 days before

22 the offensive of the 21st of March -- of May.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.

24 MR. SCULLY:

25 Q. And where in relation to the village of Stagovo was this post

1 located?

2 A. This was in the outskirts of Stagova. There are places that are

3 called Fushet e Stagov [phoen], the Stagov fields, where the Serbian army

4 was stationed.

5 We feared that the forces would come from the main road and enter

6 Stagova, and that's what we observed mostly. At the same time there was

7 an influx of other citizens coming from the surrounding areas so we could

8 observe them as well coming from the other villages.

9 Q. Could you see both the main road and the village from the

10 observation post?

11 A. Not the village, but the road. From the main road there are two

12 roads that come into the village. One is called Rruga e Kuqe and the

13 other one that goes to the martyrs' cemetery. Both of them we could see

14 very well. This is -- I meant the main road from Ferizaj to Kacanik and

15 then Skup [phoen].

16 Q. Other than the two roads you could see from the observation post,

17 is there any other means of getting into the village of Stagovo?

18 A. No, there is no other road. There is a foot-path that links

19 Biceci and Stagova and other villages, but this was only a foot-path. But

20 there is no other road where you can use a vehicle on.

21 Q. Were you in that observation post on the 21st of May?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Who was there with you at about 4.00 in the morning?

24 A. At 4.00 in the morning, together with me were Shabedin Dashi and

25 Muhamet Dashi. I almost forgot his name now.

1 Q. Did anything happen at about 4.00 in the morning on the 21st of

2 May?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What happened?

5 A. I don't keep a watch, so maybe I will not be very accurate in the

6 times, but at about 4.00 we could hear the vehicles coming from the main

7 road. And then this noise came to this Stagova road and then the forces

8 got off the vehicles.

9 Q. About how many vehicles did you hear coming up the road?

10 A. You could not see the vehicles because it's uphill and they did

11 not come to the flat part, but they stopped somewhere and the forces got

12 off. I don't know how many vehicles there were.

13 Q. Was it more than one?

14 A. I don't know. I don't want to make a mistake here. But there

15 were many because -- more than one because there were many people, many

16 forces. So it couldn't be only one vehicle.

17 Q. Where did the forces go after they got out of the vehicles?

18 A. The observation point was at Mahalla e Gudaqeve, and I went to get

19 a glass of water or light a cigarette - I don't remember what I did - but

20 I saw them when they were there at the Mahalla e Gudaqeve and also in the

21 mountain nearby.

22 Q. About how many people did you see at Mahalla e Gudaqeve?

23 A. I couldn't tell you the number, but there were many.

24 Q. And could you see what they were wearing at that time?

25 A. These were policemen. They were wearing police uniforms. But

1 then around them outside the village the army was stationed there, they

2 were guarding there. But the action in the village was carried out by the

3 police. Their uniforms were dark blue or dark green. I'm not very good

4 with colours, I'm sorry. I apologise.

5 Q. Are you familiar with the uniform the police normally wore in your

6 municipality?

7 A. Yes, I am familiar. I did not pay too much attention to those

8 uniforms, but I -- as I say, I did not pay attention to colours. What I

9 saw was that on the arm it wrote "milicija," and I told you the

10 approximate colours they had.

11 Q. Were the uniforms the people you've described as police wearing

12 the same ones the police in your municipality normally wore?

13 A. Earlier, when there was some kind of state of emergency, they had

14 those camouflage uniforms; while in peacetimes, in normal times, they had

15 the same uniform, it did not change, the regular police uniform. Only in

16 state of emergency they had this camouflage uniform.

17 Q. The uniform that the people were -- the police were wearing on

18 the 21st was the uniform you'd seen in a state of emergency?

19 MR. LUKIC: Objection, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. --

21 MR. LUKIC: This is leading.

22 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].

23 JUDGE BONOMY: I agree. Well, it's a pretty useless answer now.

24 This is pretty hopeless evidence at the moment, I have to say,

25 Mr. Scully. It's not very instructive, but do your best.

1 MR. SCULLY:

2 Q. You stated that the army was stationed around the village. How

3 long had the army been stationed there?

4 A. The army was in the fields of Stagova; it was positioned there.

5 The tanks were lined up. I did not see any artillery, but the tanks I saw

6 there. And when NATO attacked, whether they were eliminated or bombed or

7 whether they left, I don't know where they went.

8 Q. Do you know if the army -- do you know the location of the army on

9 the 21st of May?

10 A. It was around the main road. According to eye-witnesses, on

11 the 21st of May, the day of the offensive, we were explained this later --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Stop. You've been asked what you saw from an

13 observation post around 4.00 in the morning of the 21st of May. Could you

14 concentrate on that, please, and tell us what you actually saw yourself

15 happening at that time. Then we'll move on to other things. But I'm

16 finding it very difficult to follow any of what you're saying so far.

17 So please assist us by concentrating on what you're being asked,

18 which is: What did you personally see from the observation post at 4.00

19 in the morning roughly. I know you didn't have a watch and you're not is

20 sure of the time, but just let's proceed on that basis, what you actually

21 saw.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At 4.00 in the morning, we heard the

23 noise of the vehicles, and this entered -- this noise entered Stagova at

24 Rruga e Kuqe and Dardha. We did not see them, but we heard the noises.

25 But then, an hour later, the police forces and the army forces

1 entered -- came close to Mahalla e Gudaqeve. We were closer there, so we

2 saw them from the observation point.

3 MR. SCULLY:

4 Q. Let me back you up a minute. Did you ever leave the first

5 observation point?

6 A. First observation point, yes, I left. I went close to the

7 soldiers. I don't know why I went, to get a glass of water or to light a

8 cigarette, but it was for only about ten minutes.

9 Q. And from that second location, could you see army forces?

10 A. Yes, it's a flat area there, and from there you can see the

11 forces.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Scully, I would much prefer if you would ask

13 him what he saw rather than questions like: Could you see army forces?

14 That is a leading question and the answer to that is not going to be of

15 any assistance to us from a witness like this.

16 MR. SCULLY: All right. We're kind of having to go the long way

17 around to get there, but I'll do my best.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: I understood there was some exercise called

19 proofing undertaken with witnesses before they came into court. Has that

20 happened with this witness?

21 MR. SCULLY: Yes.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

23 MR. SCULLY:

24 Q. Where did you go after you left -- I'm sorry, where did you go

25 after you had the glass of water and saw the persons on the flat part?

1 A. Listen, I had to go to my family -- not my immediate family, but

2 my nephews and nieces were there. And I told Shabedin to go to his house

3 because he had his people there. I told Muhamet to go to his house as

4 well, to tell those people what was going on.

5 Q. What happened after you did that?

6 A. I woke them up, and there was somebody who accompanied these

7 people to a hiding place, to a kind of shelter. So the evacuation process

8 happened.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues]...

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Dashi, this is a very big case which involves

12 many allegations, all of which have to be explored within a reasonable

13 time by this Court. We don't have time to hear all about the drinks of

14 water, the cigarettes, the visits to relatives, and so on that you feel

15 the need to tell us about. We need to know about the activities of people

16 who are engaged in conflict or doing things that they shouldn't be doing,

17 either in a conflict or non-conflict situation. We are not here to learn

18 all about life in your particular village at that time. Now, do you

19 understand that?

20 Now, when you're being asked questions, you should concentrate on

21 what you're being asked. We're getting a completely different story today

22 from you about the weapons, for example, that were available to you as a

23 KLA unit from the story you gave us the other day, and we're concerned

24 about that. We are very anxious that we're not getting a full account

25 from you of what really matters in this case.

1 So please concentrate on the issues. Listen carefully to

2 Mr. Scully's questions, and if the difficulty continues I will take over

3 the questioning. Now, do you understand that?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

6 Mr. Scully.

7 MR. SCULLY: Your Honour, clarification on the record. He

8 described the KLA units in the village with some heavy weaponry. Today

9 he's described that he was not a part of that unit but was instead part of

10 a separate group of civilians who were at an observation post. That

11 separate group of civilians was armed with an M-48 rifle.

12 May I proceed?

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, just give me a moment here.

14 I have a 65 ter summary in this case which says that in the last

15 months of the conflict he served as a member of a local KLA unit. There

16 were 15 members in the unit, and in the early May 1999 they started a

17 24-month -- sorry, 24-hour watch for Serbian troops. Now, is this a

18 different unit from the one that we were told about on Monday?

19 MR. SCULLY: There are two units in a previous statement he --

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, just answer yes or no. You're saying it's a

21 different unit?

22 MR. SCULLY: That is a different unit from the unit at the

23 observation post.

24 The confusion arises --

25 JUDGE BONOMY: And should I be clear about that from the evidence?

1 MR. SCULLY: Yes, Your Honour, I can direct you to the exact parts

2 of the transcript from Monday.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Please do that.

4 MR. SCULLY: The confusion may arise because the civilian unit in

5 the statement and probably in the 65 ter summary has been described as a

6 civilian component to the larger KLA unit, but what he's testified to

7 today and what's borne out by the statements and the 65 ter summary is

8 that it was a separate group of people, no matter what you call them.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Tell me where in the transcript I find this.

10 MR. SCULLY: Looking at -- it's 45, 23, starting at about page --

11 page 2.

12 So it says, so a unit was formed, they were kind of defending the

13 population from this oppression, and then from that line on it describes

14 how the unit was armed. And then I asked him today: Were you part of

15 that unit? And the answer was: No, he was part of a separate group of

16 civilians.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, let me -- so this didn't emerge on Monday.

18 You're saying it emerged today?

19 MR. SCULLY: No, Your Honour. No. He has always said that he was

20 a part of a separate group of people --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, tell me where that is in the transcript from

22 the 9th of October.

23 MR. SCULLY: No, the 9th of October we were not talking about his

24 role in the unit. We were talking about his knowledge that it existed and

25 what it did.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Right. So it's today that I should have realised

2 there were two units?

3 MR. SCULLY: That -- well, yes. And the confusion is that we

4 thought it was sort of two parts of the same unit, and what he's telling

5 us today is that it was in fact completely separate.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, let me get that in today's transcript. Where

7 do I find that today?

8 You see, your question was at the beginning today: "Directing

9 your attention to the unit that spontaneously formed in the village, did

10 you have any role with that?

11 "No, absolutely not."

12 MR. SCULLY: I apologise. And he then says: "I had this" -- "No,

13 absolutely not. I had this observation point. We only observed from that

14 point.

15 "And then who was observing from the observation point?"

16 And then --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: And you're surprised that I think that was a change

18 of position from Monday?

19 MR. SCULLY: No -- I guess. I'm hoping it's clear now. He also

20 says, you know, who were these people at the observation point?

21 We were all civilians. Whereas the unit we described on Monday

22 were not civilians.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, where do I see that?

24 MR. SCULLY: It's line 9.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: On page?

1 MR. SCULLY: Page 2.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: "We were all civilians, yes."

3 But I assumed that that was him talking about this spontaneously

4 formed unit, which is the starting point for your questions. I don't see

5 a distinction here between two units.

6 MR. SCULLY: Your Honour, he said he was not part of the

7 spontaneously formed unit; that's the: No, absolutely not.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay. Very well. Well, let's carry on and see

9 what we can actually hear that he experienced on the 21st of May, because

10 at the moment there's nothing of value in this evidence and we've now had

11 half an hour of it.

12 MR. SCULLY:

13 Q. Mr. Dashi, could you see what happened in the village of Stagovo

14 on the 21st of May?

15 A. Yes. We could see what was happening, not only me but others as

16 well.

17 On the 21st of May, a little bit after 9.00, I went to the place

18 where the KLA was because there was no other place for us to go. And from

19 there we could observe what was going on in the whole terrain. We could

20 see everything, even the forces moving along the railroad, the Serbian

21 police was patrolling there, they were firing from their weapons, and so

22 on.

23 Q. What were they shooting at?

24 A. I apologise. I might have not mentioned it before, but I have

25 brought a tape here.

1 To your question what they were shooting at, they were shooting at

2 everything they could, civilians, everything they could.

3 Q. Did you ever see anything lit on fire that day?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What was lit on fire?

6 A. At approximately 10.00, houses began to burn.

7 Q. About how many houses did you see begin to burn?

8 A. There were many houses. We couldn't count them right away, but

9 later on we counted that 96 out of 182 were burned, completely. Some

10 other houses were burned, but not destroyed completely.

11 Q. While you were watching that day, did you ever see any civilians

12 try to leave the village?

13 A. I didn't see civilians try to leave the village.

14 It is important to mention the position of Stagova. People were

15 not -- it was not possible for them to leave because Stagova is on a

16 valley. We could see people moving in the direction of Nerodime but they

17 stopped there. They could not leave because of the river.

18 Q. What time did the shooting stop?

19 A. The shooting stopped at 1700 hours, and they began to withdraw.

20 Q. Did you ever go down to the village?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. What did you find when you got there?

23 A. Horror. We found victims killed in the most barbarian way. Then

24 we started to gather the civilians and to put them in the remaining houses

25 that were not damaged for shelter. It was also dangerous because of the

1 fact that the area around the place where the massacre was committed was

2 mined. We didn't know that, but luckily some animals had entered that

3 area and the mines were set out -- set off.

4 Q. How many persons killed did you personally see?

5 A. I saw all the persons that were dead, that were killed. We didn't

6 touch them for security reasons, but we could see them.

7 Q. Can you tell me the number of persons killed that you saw?

8 A. There I saw 10 persons who had been killed that day, on the 21st

9 of May.

10 Q. Did you know the names of any of those 10?

11 A. Yes, of course. I know them. Some of them were guests, people

12 who were visiting in Stagova, while others were villagers from Stagova

13 itself.

14 Q. Can you tell us the names and approximate ages of the people you

15 did know?

16 A. Yes. I will start with Fitim Gudaqi, 7 year old; Ramadan Dashi;

17 Brahim Dashi; Hamdi Dashi; then the grandmother of Fitim Gudaqi. I can't

18 remember her name at the moment. She was more than 80 years old. She

19 couldn't even walk. She was carried in a horse-drawn cart. Then the wife

20 of -- I don't remember his wife, but you can see it on the tape. Then it

21 was Bela and Rrushi; these were people who were visiting in Stagova at

22 that time.

23 Q. Do you remember any other names of the people you saw killed on

24 May 21st?

25 A. For the moment, I can't remember exactly. But they are on the

1 tape and I can tell them by names, but at the moment I cannot recall.

2 Q. Were any of the people you saw killed there wearing a uniform?

3 A. All of them were civilians. All of the victims were civilians.

4 None of them was a soldier.

5 Q. Did any of them have a weapon?

6 A. No, no.

7 Q. You've spoken about some houses you saw burnt. Could you tell if

8 they were burnt from the inside or the outside?

9 A. All the houses were burnt from the inside. There were houses that

10 were hit from the outside as well. The school building, Agim Bajrami's

11 school building also was damaged and the mosque as well. The school was

12 burned from the inside, and the library, the school library as well. As

13 for the mosque, you can still see traces of shells on the walls.

14 Q. Do you know if other bodies besides the ones you've described

15 personally seeing were found in Kacanik -- I'm sorry, were found in

16 Stagovo?

17 A. On the 21st of May that year, we saw these bodies that I

18 mentioned. And two other bodies were a little bit further up. The body

19 of Ramush Jaha and Fahri Mani, they were also killed.

20 Q. Do you know those person's ages?

21 A. Fahri was more or less 60 years old, while the other one was quite

22 older. He was the oldest man in Stagova, between 80 and 90 years old.

23 Q. During the entire day of the 21st of May, did you ever fire a

24 weapon?

25 A. No. Not only me, but those others who were there, they didn't

1 fire a weapon as well.

2 Q. What is the ethnic balance of the municipality of Stagovo?

3 A. There were only Albanians in Stagova, no other ethnic groups. At

4 least to my recollection there have not been other ethnic groups in

5 Stagova proper. However, in Stagova municipality there were other ethnic

6 groups. There were Serbs in Kacanik i Vjeter, in the town of Kacanik, and

7 the majority of them lived and still lives in Shterpca.

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dashi.

9 MR. SCULLY: Your Honour, I have no further questions.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Scully, just one moment. Do you wish to

11 try to assist us further in relation to the beginning of the event, now

12 that you've got obviously the witness attuned to the idea of what he

13 should be trying to concentrate on?

14 MR. SCULLY: If --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: It's a matter for you, but if you think -- I mean,

16 I think the whole -- the start of this event is very confusing. If you

17 don't think it can be clarified, then fine; but if you think it can, then

18 you should try.

19 MR. SCULLY: I don't think it's going to get much clearer in terms

20 of who arrived when.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

22 MR. SCULLY: If the Court has questions on where he was and what

23 he was able to observe, we could go further into that.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: No, I was more concerned about whether he could

25 identify who was arriving and from where they came.

1 MR. SCULLY: I don't think we're going to get much better on that.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay. Thanks very much.

3 Mr. Zecevic.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, we will proceed in the following

5 manner: General Pavkovic, General Lukic, General Lazarevic,

6 Mr. Milutinovic, Mr. Sainovic, and General Ojdanic.

7 Thank you very much.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

9 Mr. Ackerman.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman:

12 Q. Mr. Dashi, I expect to be very brief with you.

13 I'm interested in this KLA group of 15 persons that you may or may

14 not have been a member of. When you from your observation post heard that

15 people were advancing towards Stagovo, where were these 15 armed KLA

16 members at that time? They were down in the village, weren't they?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And when they learned that these forces were advancing, they

19 started shooting at them, didn't they?

20 A. During that time I was there, and they didn't fire at all,

21 absolutely not. They sheltered at Kulla e Cakes. There was no other

22 place for them to shelter. It was impossible to shoot at a force of that

23 size.

24 Q. Well, these forces that were approaching, did they see -- did they

25 see these 15 KLA men leave the village?

1 A. No, they didn't see them.

2 Q. How did they manage to get out of the village without being seen

3 by these forces that were approaching?

4 A. The KLA unit did not leave the village. They existed in the

5 peripheral parts of the village, in the outskirts, in Mahalla e Gudaqeve

6 and at the neighbourhood of Dashi. They moved around. They existed in

7 Stagova as well, but then there is a mountain near the railroad and you

8 cannot go any further. This is where they were stationed.

9 Q. Well, we started this examination with my question of asking you

10 if they were in the village as these forces were approaching; you told me

11 they were.

12 Now, having told me they were there, there must have been a time

13 when they left the village. And my question was now: Did they leave a

14 village in such a way that these advancing forces could have seen them

15 leave? And I think your answer is: No. Is that correct?

16 A. Listen, I will repeat it again. The place where the KLA was

17 staying was not detected, could not be seen. They moved along the

18 outskirts of Stagova up to the Kulla e Cakes and they stayed there. They

19 did not operate.

20 Q. Well, there was a time when you left the operation post that you

21 were at. Let me just back up a minute. Tell us, in relation to the

22 centre of your village, where was this observation post that you were

23 observing from? How far away from your village?

24 A. The houses in Stagova are scattered. It is divided into two

25 neighbourhoods, neighbourhood number one and number two.

1 Q. I'm interested in where you were. Where were you observing from,

2 how far from the village?

3 A. I live in neighbourhood two. My house is there. And we were

4 observing in the direction of Stagova fields, in the direction of the main

5 road in case they entered our village.

6 Q. So you were actually in the village when you were observing?

7 A. In the outskirts of the village. You could only see one part of

8 the village; you could not see the whole village of Stagova from that

9 observation post. It is high ground. It is a mountainous area;

10 therefore, you could not see it.

11 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, there came a time when you left that

12 observation post and joined up with the other 15 KLA from your village,

13 didn't you?

14 A. Yes. As I said, I don't remember exactly. I went to the second

15 place --

16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Now, where was it that you

17 joined up with these other 15 KLA men from your village? From your

18 observation post, where did you go to join up with them?

19 A. Could you please repeat your question; it's not clear to me.

20 When I left the first time, as I said I went to have a glass of

21 water or smoke a cigarette, and the second time I went to inform my

22 extended family about what was going on.

23 Q. If the question wasn't clear to you, why did you try to answer it?

24 I will make the clear now.

25 You joined up with these other 15 KLA men from your village. My

1 question is: Where did you join up with them? Where?

2 A. At Kulla e Cakes, where they were stationed. After I went to my

3 house, I went to Kulla e Cakes and joined the army.

4 Q. And that was about a hundred metres from where you had been

5 observing, wasn't it, very close?

6 A. The post from where I was observing was not further than 100

7 metres.

8 Q. Isn't that what I just said, that you went with these 15 men to a

9 place a hundred metres from where you had been observing. Isn't that

10 true?

11 MR. SCULLY: Objection. Asked and answered.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Scully -- Mr. Ackerman, I'm happy with the --

13 that the answer is a hundred metres -- less than a hundred metres.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay. I am, too, Your Honour.

15 Q. Now, in your statement which you gave to the Prosecution on 6 June

16 of 1999, it reflects that you said this: "I went and joined up with the

17 other 15 KLA men from my village," leaving the implication at least that

18 you were part of the KLA from your village and you just joined up with the

19 other 15 members of the KLA. That's true, isn't it?

20 A. If I were a KLA member, I would have told you that. I wasn't.

21 And not only me, the other civilians as well were with them. We were kind

22 of support to them.

23 Q. Well, that's very confusing, sir, because in your statement to

24 the OTP back in 1999, what you told them then was: "I had never been a

25 member of the UCK until about two months ago. There were very few weapons

1 available for Albanians and I became mobilised."

2 So you did become a member of the KLA, didn't you?

3 A. No, I wasn't a member of the KLA. I'm emphasising again: If I

4 were a KLA member I wouldn't keep it a secret. It would be an honour for

5 me to tell you that. But as I said, there was a lack of weapons as well,

6 and it wasn't possible for people to join.

7 Q. Well, when you spoke of -- you know, I don't understand why you

8 said in your statement to the OTP that you'd never been a member until two

9 months ago when you were mobilised if you weren't ever a member. I mean,

10 how does that make sense?

11 A. I will repeat it again. I was not a KLA soldier. If that is what

12 the statement says, then it's a mistake. I was not a KLA soldier; if I

13 was, it would have been an honour. We only dealt with civilian issues.

14 Due to the lack of weapons, the KLA did not function in Stagova.

15 I could not get a weapon, otherwise I would have joined the KLA, not in

16 Stagova but I would have joined the 162nd Brigade. Therefore, as I

17 already told you, we only looked after civilians and observed the terrain.

18 I joined up with the KLA on the day of the offensive, on the 21st

19 of May. I joined up with the unit in Stagova on this date.

20 Q. All right. What you then said in your statement after you said

21 you had joined up with them a hundred metres from where you had been

22 observing, you then said: "We were armed with machine-guns and

23 Kalashnikovs and one mortar gun. That was all we had."

24 So you were armed at that point apparently with a Kalashnikov at

25 least, weren't you?

1 A. Me, yes.

2 Q. And you say that: "We decided not to fire at the Serbs advancing

3 from the west." At this point where you got together up there on the

4 hill. "We did not want to put the civilians at further risk."

5 Now, can I conclude from that that you -- that they had been

6 firing at the Serbs advancing prior to that point? Isn't that a fair

7 conclusion from that?

8 A. You can say whatever you want, but not a single shot was fired in

9 the direction of the Serb forces.

10 Q. Now, from this position up there where you were with the -- the

11 KLA unit, armed with machine-guns and Kalashnikovs and mortars -- and a

12 mortar gun, you couldn't actually see anyone get killed in your village,

13 could you?

14 A. We learned about the massacre that had been committed at 10.00 in

15 the morning. Xhevat Mani with two of his in-laws came and told me what

16 had happened.

17 The majority of the civilians were caught and put in the house of

18 Enver Jaha. We could not act in any way. Maybe we would have acted if it

19 was possible, but the civilians were captured and we couldn't do anything.

20 Q. The answer is: No, you didn't see anyone get killed. Isn't that

21 the answer to my question?

22 A. We didn't see them getting killed because the place where the

23 massacre was committed could not be seen from where we were.

24 Q. And as far as you know, 10 persons were killed; correct?

25 A. 14 were killed, 12 were injured. These were the figures of that

1 day.

2 Q. And you call this a massacre?

3 MR. SCULLY: Objection. Argumentative.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, if the question relates to language used by

5 the witness, then it can hardly be described as argumentative.

6 Carry on, Mr. Ackerman.

7 MR. ACKERMAN:

8 Q. You call this a massacre?

9 A. Are you asking me?

10 Q. Of course I'm asking you.

11 A. I haven't seen a more savage killing than this. How can you not

12 call it a massacre when a 7-year-old child was killed and a 80,

13 90-year-old man? You can see the tape and you can see for yourself that

14 it was a massacre.

15 Q. How many people were left alive in the village after this

16 incident?

17 A. Listen, this question is taking me back. From the 1st of May,

18 many villagers left the village.

19 Q. I want to know when you went back to the village after this event

20 how many people were left alive in the village, how many people were

21 there?

22 JUDGE BONOMY: We now are into a debate of argument,

23 Mr. Ackerman. Obviously everyone but 14. Unless your question relates to

24 whether there had been movement away from the village.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm just wondering --

1 JUDGE BONOMY: If you want to clarify it that way and make it

2 clear it's not argumentative, then fine. But if this is simply a debate

3 about whether 14 deaths amount to a massacre, then this isn't the place

4 for it.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: It's not, Your Honour. I want to know how many

6 people were there when he went back into the village.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you answer that, please, Mr. Dashi, how many

8 people were in the village after the event was over?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't tell you exactly how many

10 remained, but there were about a hundred people who were not captured by

11 the Serbian forces. The Serbian forces caught these 50 people, and of

12 these 50 people, 14 were killed and about 12 were injured. Some of them

13 were from Biceci. There were some nieces there. They remained alive in

14 that group.

15 MR. ACKERMAN:

16 Q. You gave an additional statement to the Prosecutor on 10 March

17 2002, where you were talking about identification of -- of these forces.

18 And what you said in the one, two, three, four, fifth paragraph is: "The

19 truth is we were provided with a description of the uniforms by other

20 people. I saw the Serb forces myself. However, I was unable to discern

21 their uniforms."

22 That's true, isn't it?

23 A. Not only at that time, but even today it's difficult for me to

24 discern, to identify them, because I'm not good at colours at all.

25 Q. You left your village on 27 May of 1999, didn't you?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And no one forced you to leave, right?

3 A. No.

4 Q. That's all I have. Thank you.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Dashi, in answer to one of Mr. Ackerman's

6 questions you said that you were armed with a Kalashnikov.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: When you were initially at 4.00 in the morning in

9 the observation post, were you armed then with a Kalashnikov?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: How then did you come by the weapon in the course

12 of the day?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the soldiers of the KLA -- one

14 of the soldiers was ill and he gave me his weapon. He was very ill. It

15 was his weapon.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

17 Now Mr. Lukic -- sorry.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me, I'm advised that these statements I

19 referred to are actually in e-court as 5D8 and 5D9, and since I referred

20 to them I'll now tender them.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

22 Mr. Lukic.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dashi, my name is Branko Lukic. I have a

1 couple of questions for you.

2 Although it was very difficult to capture all the discrepancies

3 between your various statements and testimony, may we now clarify certain

4 points. Were you mobilised by the KLA or were you not mobilised by the

5 KLA?

6 A. I was not armed and I was not a soldier. I got the rifle on the

7 21st of May, 1999, at Kulla e Cakes. One soldier was ill, I got his

8 weapon. I was not mobilised.

9 Q. Thank you. So if in your statement given to the OTP says that you

10 were mobilised by the KLA, that is not correct, right?

11 A. I will repeat it. I was not a soldier. If I had been, I would

12 have been proud of it.

13 Q. Thank you. So it's not correct; that's all I'm interested in. If

14 something like that is written, that is not correct --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, we've been over this with Mr. Ackerman.

16 The position is clear. All the witness is doing is repeating for I think

17 for the fourth time, the same answer. Let's move on to something else.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Q. Do you know who was the commander of the unit that you joined as

20 you say on the 21st of May, 1999?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What was his name?

23 A. Remzi Krraba.

24 Q. You also knew of the existence of the 162nd Brigade. Is that

25 correct?

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. And you knew that that brigade counted about a thousand men?

3 A. Probably more.

4 Q. Thank you. That brigade was active in the area of your village

5 and the surrounding villages. Is that correct?

6 A. No. It operated in the Sharri mountains, not in my village,

7 absolutely not. It did not operate there, because there is the main road,

8 Pristina-Skup [as interpreted], that divides my village from the Sharri

9 mountains.

10 Q. Around that road are located the following villages in which the

11 162nd Brigade was active. I will now read out to you the names of these

12 villages and you will confirm to me that the 162nd Brigade existed in

13 those villages: Raka, Grlica, Doganovic, Stari Kacanik, Duskaja, Dubrava,

14 Runjevo, Kovacevac, Gajre, Ivaja, Djurdjevdo. All these villages are in

15 the immediate vicinity of yours. Isn't that correct?

16 A. Stagova borders these villages. Stagova, in fact, borders

17 Biqeznik [phoen] and a couple of other villages, but the other ones that

18 you mentioned are not close to Stagova. They are on the other side of the

19 main road. From Stagova to Biqez it's about 5 to 6 kilometres, for

20 example.

21 Q. Thank you. That's precisely what I am asserting.

22 A. One more thing, if I'm allowed, please --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you haven't answered the question as yet, so

24 please try to do that.

25 The question was whether the KLA were -- the 162nd Brigade were

1 active in these villages, to your knowledge. Now, what's the answer to

2 that?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It could be said so, but the reality

4 is that the 162nd Brigade operated in the Sharri mountains. But in order

5 to get food supplies and other supplies that the army needed, they might

6 have gone to the -- to these villages. Otherwise, they did not enter

7 these villages; they stayed away from these villages. This is what I

8 heard.

9 There was no KLA in Grlice because the police forces were there.

10 In Kacanik as well, because the police station was there, in

11 Stari Kacanik.

12 MR. LUKIC: Can I continue, Your Honour?

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, please.

14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

15 Q. [Interpretation] You say that you were at a scouting post. Who

16 told you to go there, to this reconnaissance or scouting post?

17 A. Nobody sent me there. We had to do it because we had to observe

18 the terrain, because at any moment we were expecting the forces to come.

19 They came to other villages as well, not only to my village.

20 Q. Thank you. So is it the case that there were two groups in your

21 village, one numbering 15 armed men belonging to the KLA, and another

22 group scouting from that observation post? Is that what you are saying

23 today?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is it the case that the men from the KLA knew that you were at

1 that observation or scouting post?

2 A. They might have known or they might not have known. We, as

3 citizens, we did the observation ourselves.

4 Q. You said that those members of the KLA were in your village.

5 Isn't that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. Today on page 12, line 3, when responding to a

8 question from my learned friend from the Prosecution, who asked you if you

9 had seen what was going on in the village, you answered: "We were able to

10 see what was going on."

11 In contrast, on page 3, line 10, also today, you say: "We did not

12 see the village, just the road from Urosevac to Kacanik."

13 If you did not see the village, just the road, how were you able

14 to see what was going on in the village?

15 MR. SCULLY: Objection. That mischaracterises. He was describing

16 two different locations in the transcript.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I respond?

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Not at the moment until we resolve this, please.

19 Well, Mr. Lukic, it's a matter for you how you go about this, but

20 I've no recollection of the witness saying -- giving any evidence about

21 observing anything within -- occurring within the built-up part of the

22 village. And, really, it's that that matters, I think.

23 MR. LUKIC: I noted something like that on the --

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, if it would be helpful, page 22,

25 line 9 --

1 MR. LUKIC: Also this --

2 MR. ACKERMAN: "We didn't see them getting killed because the

3 place where the massacre was committed could not been seen from where we

4 were."

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Indeed. But the point I'm making, as I have no --

6 unless Mr. Lukic has a different recollection, I don't think that the

7 witness has claimed to have seen anything actually happening within the

8 village, and therefore we're on an academic point it would appear.

9 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, on page 12, line 3 the question

10 was: "Mr. Dashi" --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: I've got that, Mr. Lukic. But what does he say he

12 actually saw happening? I'm making the point to you. Did he actually

13 give any concrete evidence about seeing something happen in the village

14 himself? And if he didn't, are we not really debating an academic point?

15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, maybe Mr. Scully has a different point of

17 view. Did he claim to see anything in the village?

18 MR. SCULLY: He describes forces shooting at everything and houses

19 burning, although he was also clear that he could not see anyone actually

20 get killed. I wasn't sure where the question was going --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: But this is on page 12 again, isn't it?

22 MR. SCULLY: Page 12, line 12, Your Honour. To your

23 question: "What were they shooting at?

24 "They were shooting at everything they could, at civilians."

25 JUDGE BONOMY: But all the -- the only evidence he's given is of

1 seeing forces moving along the railroad.

2 I'm sorry? Yeah, but he doesn't say what he saw happening. I

3 mean, it's pointless to have evidence: I could see everything that was

4 happening and then he doesn't say what he actually saw. We don't have any

5 evidence as a result of that. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

6 But if you think that's important, please carry on and

7 cross-examine on that.

8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll have to clarify some

9 more points on this.

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dashi, is it true that on that day in your

11 village there were 3.000 people?

12 A. No. I never said that, that on the 21st of March -- of May there

13 were 3.000 people in my village.

14 Q. You said your village had a population of 1600 and that together

15 with the people who had come from other places, there were 3.000.

16 A. The population was 1.600, a little more maybe. I spoke in

17 approximate terms.

18 Q. So what may we conclude then, that on that day in your village

19 there were 1600 people?

20 A. No.

21 Q. How many people were there on that day in your village?

22 A. The village of Stagova was overcrowded because during the past two

23 weeks people were coming from other villages and going towards Skopije by

24 train. Other people remained there, but on the 21st of May, the train did

25 not stop at Stagova. So the people who were there, the civilians, went to

1 the Jaha stream and they remained there.

2 Q. Can you tell us the number? How many people were there in your

3 village on the 21st of May, 1999?

4 A. There could have been 150, something like that.

5 Q. So all the people had already left the village before any of the

6 fighting began?

7 A. Yes, in Stagova, yes.

8 Q. Yes, thank you.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, this is important, Mr. Dashi. I mean, what

10 had happened to them?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not clear about the people who

12 remained in Stagova or what are you asking me about? Could you repeat the

13 question.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: If there had been 3.000 people there and there were

15 only 150 on the 21st of May and 10 per cent of them were KLA terrorists,

16 it's quite an important fact in connection with the activity of the Serb

17 forces that day. So I would like to be clear, if you can assist me, in

18 establishing exactly how many people were there first thing in the morning

19 of the 21st of May. Was it only 150 people?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The train did not stop there that

21 day. It didn't even come that way. So the people who went to the stream

22 and remained there because of the police forces, some of them went to

23 Begrac from Mahalla e Hysajre to Begrac. They wanted to go there, they

24 could go there. The rest remained in Stagova.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: So at 4.00 in the morning when you observed or

1 heard activity of vehicles, how many people were actually resident in

2 Stagova?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About 150. I don't think there were

4 more.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: So where were the other 2.850?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The influx of refugees happened two

7 weeks ago. They want -- they came to Stagova because there was a train

8 station there, and from there you could go to Skopije. So that's what we

9 did. We helped these people, we sheltered them in the houses, and then

10 they took the train and went to Skopije.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Let's leave them aside. 1600

12 inhabitants of Stagova itself, the people who were normally resident

13 there, where were the other 1.450 of them?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They went to other places. They

15 went to Skopije by train.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: So this was like a ghost village on the day that

17 this happened?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. My family, for example, left

19 on the 1st of May and went to Skopije.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I have to say, Mr. Scully, I had no

21 impression of this village being like that on this day. Should I have had

22 that impression?

23 MR. SCULLY: Your Honour, this is unfortunately news to me too.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

25 Mr. Lukic.

1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: And just -- I should also say at this stage that it

3 may be that my impression of how much the witness has claimed to be able

4 to see in the village is not that held by everyone. So if you do wish to

5 cross-examine further on that, then that may be appropriate.

6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dashi, when exactly did you learn that there

8 were no longer any people in that village, already at 4.00 a.m. on the

9 21st of May, 1999, in the village there were no more than 150 people. Is

10 that correct?

11 A. I learned this because from my neighbourhood there were people,

12 but from neighbourhood number one there were no people there. I learned

13 it earlier that there was this influx of people and people moving and

14 going towards Macedonia.

15 Q. Thank you. When did your wife leave for Macedonia?

16 A. On the 1st of May of the same year.

17 Q. Your entire family left with her. Isn't that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. The civilians who were surrounded were surrounded by

20 the paramilitaries. Is that correct?

21 A. Paramilitaries were seen. I did not see them myself, but

22 paramilitaries and police forces were seen.

23 Q. Should I take you back to your statement or will you take my word

24 for it that in your statement you said they had been surrounded by the

25 paramilitaries? Do you remember stating that to the Office of the

1 Prosecutor earlier and that that was the reason why you did not fire at

2 the Serb forces?

3 A. Could you repeat the question? It's not clear to me at all.

4 MR. SCULLY: Your Honour, if we could have the exact reference

5 from the statement, I think those answers will reconcile themselves.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, is the -- is it the statement 5D8 or 5D9?

7 MR. LUKIC: Statement 5D8 -- give me one second.

8 Yes, now I finally -- it's -- give me one second. In English

9 version it's page number 3, paragraph number 2; Albanian version, page

10 number 3, paragraph number 3; and Serbian version, page number 3,

11 paragraph number 2. And it says --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you want it on e-court?

13 MR. LUKIC: If possible, yes, please, in Albanian for this --

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, let's have the Albanian page 3, please.

15 MR. LUKIC: Paragraph number 3.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: It's 5D8.

17 MR. SCULLY: I have an Albanian language hard copy as well, if

18 that would assist.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: It would help, but I think we're almost there.

20 MR. LUKIC: Page number 3, please.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Dashi, if you look at page 3 of your

22 statement, at paragraph 3 --

23 MR. LUKIC: Second sentence.

24 Q. [Interpretation] It says here: "We were going to fight back and

25 fire at the Serbs, but we were warned by a civilian from the village that

1 the civilian population had been trying to flee towards the north, but

2 they were surrounded by paramilitaries. When we heard this, we decided

3 not to fire at the Serbs advancing from the west."

4 This passage in your statement given to the Prosecutor, is that

5 correct?

6 A. Very correct.

7 Q. So your testimony on the record today is not correct that they

8 were surrounded by the paramilitaries and the police?

9 A. It is true. What I said today is true. A mistake has occurred

10 with the statement. It is true that the civilians were surrounded and

11 that we were unable to act because of that.

12 Q. In the same paragraph, in the following sentence, you say: "From

13 my position I could not see where the civilian population was."

14 Is that correct?

15 A. From the position where we were, civilians leaving Prroni i Jahes

16 were seen and -- at 10.00 a.m., and they walked towards the fields in the

17 direction of Nerodime and that's where they remained.

18 Q. In other words, this part of the statement that you provided to

19 the Prosecutor of this Tribunal is also not correct. Are you saying now

20 that you actually saw where the civilians were? Did you personally see

21 where the civilians were?

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Don't answer that for a moment.

23 Mr. Scully.

24 MR. SCULLY: Your Honour, I think it's the same problem as

25 earlier. The witness talks about stuff he observed from two different

1 locations. If you go down in the statement, he then talks about a group

2 of 10 to 15 women and children he saw leaving the village. In the section

3 that counsel was originally referring to, he says he could not see where

4 the civilian population where when they were surrounded by paramilitaries.

5 So if counsel can pick which paragraph he is referring to, the

6 answer might be clearer.

7 MR. LUKIC: I think that I couldn't be more precise. I was

8 referring to paragraph number 3 from the page number 3, Albanian version,

9 and it's the second sentence after the one we were discussing before.

10 So I was asking him about the situation when civilians were

11 surrounded by some forces.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, how do we know that the answer given at

13 line 19 on page 35 is not a reference to the later part of what's in his

14 statement?

15 MR. LUKIC: I can try to clarify that --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we'll clarify it when we come back.

17 MR. LUKIC: Okay.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: We will need to break now and we will resume at

19 five minutes to 11.00.

20 Mr. Dashi, we'll have to have a break for 20 minutes. You'll be

21 shown again where to wait, and we'll see you again at five minutes

22 to 11.00.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: The examination by Mr. Lukic will continue,

1 Mr. Dashi.

2 Mr. Lukic.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Dashi, we have to clarify a certain matter, as instructed by

5 the Trial Chamber. You were in two places on the 21st of May, 1999. From

6 which of these places could you see the Urosevac-Kacanik road?

7 A. From the observation post, while when I joined up with the army at

8 Kulla e Cakes, from there you can no longer see the main road. From there

9 you can see Stagova.

10 Q. Which part of Stagovo could you observe from that other place?

11 A. From the second place, that is neighbourhood number two, which is

12 at the north-east of Stagova, you can see the place where the massacre was

13 committed but you cannot see the area around the main road.

14 Q. Are you now saying that you did see with your own two eyes the

15 massacre, as you call it?

16 A. I could not see with my own eyes the massacre. That area is a

17 mountainous area, and there is a stream, a brook. You can see the

18 neighbourhood and Prroni i Jahes, but they were deeper in that area and we

19 could not see the people there.

20 Q. Thank you. You've told us that the vehicles of the Serb forces

21 stopped some 300 metres away from the village. Is that correct?

22 A. Not more than that. At Rruga e Kuqe, or the red road, where I was

23 observing, it is not more than 300 metres, while the road that takes you

24 to the martyrs' cemetery is a little further up, and both these roads

25 joined the main road.

1 Q. How long did it take them to do the 300 metres?

2 A. It is important to emphasise that it was early in the morning and

3 we could hear the noise. So when they came down to Mahalle e Gudaqeve,

4 that's where I could see and hear the noise.

5 Q. How much time passed?

6 A. 20 minutes. I will -- I would ask you to repeat it again, please.

7 Q. I believe that we received an answer. Are you saying that 20

8 minutes passed from the moment the troops left their vehicles to the

9 moment when they entered the village?

10 A. So at Mahalle e Gudaqeve, which is close, it was only 20 minutes.

11 And as for the other parts, it must have been later on. I couldn't have

12 seen them.

13 Q. You're saying that the troops were shooting all that time?

14 A. If you're referring to the period of time later, yes; but if

15 you're referring at the moment when they came to Mahalle e Gudaqeve, part

16 of them remained at the mountain and they were shooting from there, while

17 another part was walking in the direction of Mahalle e Gudaqeve.

18 Q. But the shooting went on all this time. Is that correct?

19 A. Up to 5.00, plus/minus 15 minutes. It didn't stop at all up

20 to 5.00.

21 Q. Who were the troops shooting at, bearing in mind that the troops

22 were both in the village and outside the village?

23 A. I'm not quite sure as far as the troops outside are concerned.

24 However, the troops that were inside, which we were observing, they were

25 shooting wherever they could. They were shooting at the houses, they were

1 shooting at the animals. They killed all the animals that were there.

2 Q. According to you, the troops that from very early morning

3 until 5.00 in the afternoon kept on opening fire killed a total of 12

4 people or 14 people?

5 A. Yes, that's very correct.

6 Q. Thank you. Were there any KLA units in the territory of your

7 village?

8 MR. SCULLY: Your Honour, I believe that's been asked and

9 answered.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: I agree.

11 MR. LUKIC: I'll move on. Thank you.

12 Q. [Interpretation] You've told us that on the uniforms worn by some

13 of the troops you saw the inscription "police," "milicija." From what

14 distance could you see that word, "milicija"?

15 A. It is very true that Kulla e Cakes is on high ground. Along the

16 railroad they approached our position. I would say that they were at 60

17 metres from us, and we could see them with binoculars.

18 Q. On which sleeve and in which letter was this inscription?

19 A. The inscription "milicija" in their language -- was in their

20 language, and I think it was on the left upper arm.

21 Q. Mr. Dashi, the evidence will show that this is practically

22 impossible, that you could not have seen that in 1999. How do you explain

23 the fact that you did not see any insignia on the uniform, but at the same

24 time you observed the word "milicija" in the Cyrillic script?

25 A. It is not true that I did not see the uniform. I only said that

1 I'm not good in colours to treat this matter accurately. I have seen the

2 uniform; I saw it very well, but I'm not able to describe it. I might

3 make mistakes. I'm here to tell you the truth, and I stand by what I'm

4 saying.

5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dashi. I have no further questions for you.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

7 Mr. Cepic.

8 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We don't have

9 any questions for this witness. Thank you.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zecevic.

11 MR. ZECEVIC: No questions for this witness, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila.

13 Cross-examination by Mr. Fila:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dashi --

15 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I am going to have one question.

16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dashi, at one point you told us you took a

17 Kalashnikov and joined the 14 members of the KLA. Am I right? You took

18 the Kalashnikov from the 15th member who was ill at the time. This is

19 what you stated today. Is it true?

20 A. Yes, it's true. In other words, it was given to me.

21 Q. Let's move on quickly, please. You said you were not a member of

22 the KLA. I can assume then that on that day you wore civilian clothes.

23 Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. At the moment when you were holding the Kalashnikov and when you

1 saw the group of 15 KLA members, you were still wearing civilian clothes.

2 Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The other members of the KLA, did they wear uniforms or did they

5 wear civilian clothes? This is my question.

6 A. There were some who were wearing uniforms and some who were

7 wearing civilian clothes.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] That's all.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.

11 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Cross-examination by Mr. Visnjic:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dashi, just a few questions for you. Can you

14 please tell me whether you know that on the 27th of March there was a

15 fighting -- and I am referring to the year 1999, that there was fighting

16 between the KLA and the Serb forces in the town of Kacanik in the part

17 known as Ladjatere [phoen]?

18 A. Laxha e Re [phoen], if I'm not mistaken.

19 Q. Yes. Are you familiar with the fact that there was fighting

20 there?

21 A. Yes. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. Mr. Dashi, the village of Runjevo is between Kacanik

23 and Stagovo. Am I right in saying that?

24 A. Runjeva is between Kacanik and Stagova. It's situated on the

25 railroad.

1 Q. And the distance between Kacanik and Stagovo is some 5 or 6

2 kilometres. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Tell me, Mr. Dashi, in the month of March, on the 27th of March

5 and a few days afterwards, did a number of people from Kacanik arrive in

6 your village? Do you know anything about that?

7 A. This is very true. There was a great influx of people who came to

8 Stagova. Some of them sheltered in the village, some sheltered in the

9 mountains, some went to Krivanjev [phoen] --

10 Q. Yes, I'm going to ask you about that. Mr. Dashi, was your village

11 of Stagovo ever under the control of the KLA from the beginning of war

12 that started on the 24th of March, 1999, onwards?

13 A. No, it never was. If you want me to explain, to my knowledge --

14 Q. Yes, this is enough. I'll ask you a few more questions about

15 that.

16 A. -- the KLA operated in Sharri mountains.

17 Q. Were there any KLA members in Runjevo, which is also on the

18 railway -- road?

19 A. [Previous translation continues] ... don't know.

20 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that at the beginning of April

21 there was an April in Runjevo between the Serb forces and the KLA and that

22 on that occasion some 50 KLA members were either killed or hurt? Are you

23 aware of that fact?

24 A. This happened in Laxha e Re in Kacanik, not in Runjeva.

25 Q. I'm asking you about the beginning of April and not about the

1 27th of March. I'm asking you about the beginning of April.

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. Very well then. In your village, was there any other KLA unit in

4 addition to the unit that you've been mentioning?

5 A. There was no other unit except for the one that I mentioned in the

6 village of Stagova.

7 I would like to add something here. There were young men from

8 Stagova who were KLA members, but they were not in Stagova, they were

9 operating in other areas.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the basis for my

12 question was Exhibit 3D100, page 11, and I have no further questions for

13 this witness.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Visnjic.

15 Mr. Scully.

16 MR. SCULLY: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Re-examination by Mr. Scully:

18 Q. Mr. Dashi, when you were together -- when you were with the 15 KLA

19 members, did that group stay together for the entire day?

20 A. Yes. So at around 8.00 I joined up with this group, and I didn't

21 leave this group until 5.00. So we spent the whole night there.

22 Q. And were you ever directly shot at by any of the forces you've

23 described that day?

24 A. There were shootings directed at us, but this place where we were

25 was on high ground and luckily they didn't hit us.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Scully, 8.00 and 5.00, is that a period of

2 21 hours or are we talking about just overnight? Could --

3 MR. SCULLY: I'll clarify that.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: I think this needs to be clarified.

5 MR. SCULLY:

6 Q. Mr. Dashi, do you mean 5.00 in the morning or 5.00 in the evening?

7 A. 1700 hours. I apologise. So from 8.00 in the morning till 1700

8 hours.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: So the next part of the answer then doesn't make

10 sense: "So we spent the whole night there."

11 MR. SCULLY: That's right.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Unless it's a translation problem.

13 MR. SCULLY: I don't know if it is or not. I can -- I'll just ask

14 him.

15 Q. Did -- where did you spend the previous night to the 21st, the

16 night of the 20th?

17 A. In Stagova. If you have patience, I will explain it to you.

18 On the 21st of May from 8.00 I joined up with the KLA unit, and I

19 stayed with them till 1700 hours. We observed the terrain. We saw the

20 victims, and we spent the night with them. There was no other place that

21 we could go.

22 MR. SCULLY: I'm satisfied with that, Your Honour.

23 Q. How many neighbourhoods are there in the municipality of -- or in

24 the village of Stagovo?

25 A. There are two neighbourhoods. As for mahallas, you have the Jahaj

1 mahalla, the Manaj mahalla, the Brahaj mahalla, the mahalla of Gudaqeve,

2 the mahalla of Bajrami, the mahalla of Hysi. But all these mahallas

3 belong to two neighbourhoods. Then you have Krivanjeva which is like

4 neighbourhood number three. Krivanjeva was completely destroyed and

5 nobody lives there anymore. It was burned down.

6 Q. Directing your attention to all of those places, both

7 neighbourhoods, and all of the mahallas you've described, how many people

8 were there on the 21st of May?

9 A. I will repeat it again. On the 21st of May, around 150 or 160.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. SCULLY: Your Honour, I have no further questions.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, thank you, Mr. Dashi, for coming to the

15 Tribunal to give evidence. I'm sorry that you had to wait a bit longer

16 than expected while we dealt with another witness yesterday, but that was

17 very convenient for the Trial Chamber. But that now brings your evidence

18 to an end, your contribution to the proceedings to an end, and you're free

19 to leave.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Ms. Moeller, who is the next witness?

25 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, the next witness is protected

1 Witness K25, and we filed a submission on his protective measures

2 yesterday because there is a slight confusion in the documentation. He

3 was initially granted closed session by the Trial Chamber in Milosevic,

4 but in reality he then testified in the trial in open session with facial

5 and voice distortion.

6 We tried to find in the record any documentation of this amendment

7 to the protective measures, but we couldn't. We submitted yesterday that

8 the protective measures that he enjoyed during the Milosevic trial

9 according to the ruling that order -- protective measures was granted

10 should continue -- should also continue in this trial, which means he

11 would enjoy facial and voice distortion when testifying here today.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: At the beginning of his evidence in the Milosevic

13 trial, there's no reference to the nature of the protective measures?

14 MS. MOELLER: There is a reference, a general reference, that says

15 this witness has been granted a various protective measures, but it

16 doesn't specify it. We went back to the videotape, and it does show that

17 he had voice and face distortion. Neither in the transcript nor on the

18 documentation of decisions could we find any reference to the change,

19 however, and we put quite some effort into finding that. So we are a

20 little bit confused by the situation too.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what you're really asking us to do is to

22 rescind the protective measures that were granted in -- initially in

23 Milosevic and make an order for different protective measures so that

24 there's no doubt for the future.

25 MS. MOELLER: Yes.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: You see, this witness may give evidence again.

2 MS. MOELLER: Yes, yes.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: There are other trials in relation to -- at least

4 one other trial in relation to Kosovo on the list of cases, and the

5 problem that's arising now should be avoided for the future. And I think

6 there should be a clear order in relation to these protective measures for

7 the avoidance of doubt.

8 MS. MOELLER: Yes, I fully agree with Your Honours.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Zecevic, do you know if there's any

10 opposition to this, since the objective is obviously to have the evidence

11 heard in public rather than in closed session, which is the order that

12 actually stands at the moment?

13 MR. ZECEVIC: I see by nodding of my colleagues that we don't have

14 any objection to this.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

16 Now, there is a provision here requiring this Chamber to consult

17 with any surviving Judge of the Milosevic Chamber who was involved in that

18 decision, but -- and I wasn't involved -- the decision was made before I

19 was ever part of the Milosevic Chamber. But since Judges Robinson and

20 Kwon were plainly satisfied that that was the appropriate course to follow

21 in relation to the witnesses in that trial, we can take it that there's no

22 need for that consultation to take place specifically. They plainly were

23 satisfied with these arrangements. And we shall, therefore, vary the -- I

24 think the best way is to vary the previous order and provide that instead

25 of giving evidence in closed session, this witness will give evidence in

1 open session with voice and image distortion.

2 MS. MOELLER: Thank you very much.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: To set that up takes time, and therefore we will

4 require to adjourn for that purpose.

5 Before we do that, can you just make it clear what parts of the

6 indictment he will refer to?

7 MS. MOELLER: Yes, Your Honours. This witness will testify to the

8 paragraphs 20, 25 to 32, 72, 72(a), 72(a)(i), 75, 75(c), and 77(a), (b),

9 and (d). His evidence is mainly relevant for the municipalities of

10 Orahovac [realtime transcript read in error "Urosevac"] and Prizren,

11 specifically the location of Mala Krusa, but which we've already heard

12 some evidence the week before last week.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: And is he giving viva voce evidence or are we

14 relying on any statement?

15 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, I intend to tender the statement of

16 the witness as well as his transcript from the Milosevic case and to lead

17 some further live evidence that will be explanatory on to these two --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: So this is what you would describe as a witness

19 giving evidence under Rule 92 ter?

20 MS. MOELLER: In the notification we said "live/92 ter."

21 He was initially a live witness, and actually I moved him to be a

22 partial 92 ter witness because his evidence is -- his statement is very

23 extensive, and I think we do not need to lead all that in live, but I

24 would wish to lead some in live, in particular as far as he explains some

25 maps that are part of his evidence from the previous trial and that are --

1 is probably difficult to understand solely on the basis of the written

2 evidence.

3 And if I may use this option to identify there is one mistake in

4 the transcript. I said the evidence is relevant for the municipalities of

5 Orahovac not Urosevac.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Orahovac. Ferizaj. That makes it easier.

7 MS. MOELLER: If that could be corrected.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, the best plan for us, I think, is -- well, if

9 we can crave the indulgence of the interpreters, we could resume at 12.00

10 and sit through to 1.45 rather than have yet another break. So unless I'm

11 told that's not possible, that will be the arrangement.

12 --- Recess taken at 11.31 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 12.02 p.m.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: While the next witness, protected witness, K25, is

15 brought into court, we'll go into closed session.

16 [Closed session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, sir. You're known to us as

23 Witness K25. Would you please make the solemn declaration to tell the

24 truth by reading aloud the document which will now be placed before you.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

3 We do have before us the transcript of your evidence in a previous

4 case, and we also have your statement. So we already have a great deal of

5 information about the evidence you are giving to the Tribunal. You're

6 here today so that that can be supplemented or challenged or clarified.

7 There will be questions asked to seek to do these various things. The

8 first person to question you will be for the Prosecutor, and that will be

9 Ms. Moeller.

10 Ms. Moeller.

11 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 WITNESS: WITNESS K25

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Examination by Ms. Moeller:

15 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

16 MS. MOELLER: Could the usher bring the sheet.

17 Q. I will hand you a sheet which contains your data and I would like

18 you to look at that and confirm whether this is your name. Don't read it

19 out, though, of course.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Carry on, Ms. Moeller.

21 MS. MOELLER: Thank you.

22 Q. Sir, did you give a statement to representatives of this Tribunal

23 on 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, and 12 September 2001?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. And did you have an opportunity this week when you came here to go

1 through this statement again?

2 A. I did.

3 Q. And did you point out some clarifications and corrections that you

4 would like to make in regard to this statement to representatives of this

5 office?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, there are just a couple of points, and

8 for this reason we decided to do it on the transcript instead of taking a

9 further statement from the witness. It will be very quick.

10 Q. Sir, in relation to an operation in Orahovac in March/early April

11 1999, your statement says that the VJ provided support to your unit. Did

12 you advise us that this was actually not correctly stated in your

13 statement?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. MOELLER: This is page 6 of the English version of the

16 statement. It is the second paragraph under the title "other operations."

17 Q. And how would it be correctly stated there? Could you tell the

18 Court. Who provided support to your unit?

19 A. The support was given by our police forces who were behind us.

20 Q. So instead of VJ, it should read "the MUP provided support";

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And did you also point out that the next sentence where it says --

24 sorry, that in the same sentence where it refers to support being provided

25 of 120-millimetre mortar fire from Krusevina [phoen] that this is not

1 correct, and what did you tell about that?

2 A. I said that the question was probably whether I had heard a 120,

3 and I said that I would have recognised it if it had been 120, but it

4 wasn't. It was 80. And I had never heard of Krusevina.

5 Q. On the same page of the English version, page 6, further down

6 there is a reference to one operation you participated in which concerned

7 the area of Kraljani, and your statement -- the English version of your

8 statement says that the task was to hold the area of Kraljani. Did you

9 correct to us this and what did you say?

10 A. I don't understand your question.

11 Q. On page 6 of your statement you -- there is one entry

12 saying: "The next operation was holding the area of Kraljani."

13 A. Right. And to keep it, the area of Kraljani, to keep the area of

14 Kraljani, hold it.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: So that confirms it's accurate.

17 MS. MOELLER: Yes, Your Honour. In the read back he had a look at

18 both versions and he found "holding" was not correctly translated from the

19 B/C/S version to the English version, but it's just a minor point.

20 Q. Then at a later stage in your statement where you talk about the

21 Hajdari compound and the refugees going not towards the main road but

22 towards the Beli Drim, there is a reference on page 17 of the English

23 version that is, and I'll read it to you.

24 It says: "When the local police came back in about half an hour,

25 I told them the best thing to do was to leave and that we were soon to

1 depart as well and that there was danger that we were going to be spotted

2 by the local police if they used the main road towards the Beli Drim."

3 Did you correct that to us and said that the main road goes

4 towards a different location?

5 A. Right. The main road goes towards Prizren.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, with these corrections having been put on the

7 trial record, do you attest that your written statement accurately

8 reflects your evidence and reflects what you would say if you were

9 examined today?

10 A. Yes.

11 MS. MOELLER: Your Honour, I would like to tender Exhibit P2365

12 under seal at this point.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: That's appropriate at this stage, but since this is

14 public evidence then a redacted version of this should be made available.

15 MS. MOELLER: Yes.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Now I appreciate that there's some work involved in

17 dealing with that, but it should be done as soon as possible.

18 MS. MOELLER: We will certainly do so, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

20 MS. MOELLER: Could we also tender the identification sheet? It's

21 exhibit number P2358 under seal.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

23 MS. MOELLER:

24 Q. Now, sir, did you also testify in the Milosevic trial in 2002?

25 A. As far as I know, 2003.

1 Q. Well, I think the transcript shows it was in 2002, but do you

2 remember testifying in this trial at any point?

3 A. Yes, of course.

4 Q. And when you came here this week, was the transcript of your

5 testimony in this trial read back to you?

6 A. Yes, it was.

7 Q. And do you attest that this transcript accurately reflects your

8 evidence and that you would testify the same today?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, I would like to tender Exhibit P2366.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

12 MS. MOELLER: Now, I would like to ask the witness some questions

13 about his concrete position in 1999 and also about his current profession.

14 Could I do that in private session, please, to ward any problems.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: This is in the interest of the security of the

16 witness?

17 MS. MOELLER: Yes.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, you may do that.

19 MS. MOELLER: Thank you.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 [Open session]

25 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

1 MS. MOELLER: Thank you.

2 Could we pull up Exhibit P615, please, the Kosovo atlas, page 5

3 and 6, I think it's one page.

4 Q. I would first like to talk to you about the operations you

5 participated in as a member of your unit in 1998.

6 We understand you were in Kosovo on six occasions and in different

7 areas. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 MS. MOELLER: I think that's the wrong page. Page 5 and 6,

10 please. Yeah, that's the right page. Could we zoom in, please? Can we

11 zoom in further? Yeah, I think that -- and go a little bit up. No,

12 sorry, down. Yes.

13 Q. Witness, in your statement you referred at -- in your first

14 operation, it was conducted in between Kosovska Mitrovica, Srbica,

15 Josanica, and Klina because several roads were cut off by the KLA at that

16 time and that that was a kind of triangle formed. Can you show on this

17 map the roads that were concerned by this operation?

18 A. From Srbica to Glina, and from Glina to Glogovac.

19 Q. Mm-hmm. And that was the -- that was the first time that there

20 was ever any anti-terrorist operation in Kosovo, to your knowledge?

21 A. Yes.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction to the last answer, the

23 place name is K, Klina, not G, Glina.

24 MS. MOELLER:

25 Q. Can you draw a continuous line between the two locations that you

1 just mentioned?

2 A. [Marks].

3 MS. MOELLER: Can we take a snap-shot, please?

4 THE REGISTRAR: That would be IC75, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

6 MS. MOELLER:

7 Q. During this operation, was there any VJ support?

8 A. No.

9 MS. MOELLER: Can we go to page 17 of the atlas, please?

10 Q. You also refer to your statement to terrorist bases in

11 Gornje Prekaze, Donje Prekaze and Ovcarevo, and that the PJP was operating

12 within this triangle. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 MS. MOELLER: Can we please zoom in around Klina? Scroll, yes.

15 Yes.

16 Q. Can you show in this map where you were operating?

17 A. Just make it a little smaller. Zoom out a little.

18 Q. Okay.

19 MS. MOELLER: Can we zoom out a little bit?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zoom out a bit more.

21 MS. MOELLER: Can you scroll to the bottom?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I can't see Srbica, then I won't

23 be able to answer you. We have to have Klina and Srbica visual.

24 MS. MOELLER:

25 Q. Okay.

1 MS. MOELLER: Can you go down a bit?

2 JUDGE BONOMY: I think we're on --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were here --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: We're on a map that you can't see Srbica on, I

5 think.

6 MS. MOELLER: That's the problem with the maps; they're not the

7 best to work with.

8 Well, never mind. We can move on. It's not of dramatic

9 importance.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, it is on the map, Srbica. If

11 you just zoom out a little bit more, you'll see it. It's just up and to

12 the right of Klina.

13 MS. MOELLER: Could you zoom out?

14 MR. ZECEVIC: You need to zoom out.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right, up, up. It's good now.

16 MS. MOELLER:

17 Q. Okay. Do you feel able to mark approximately? Thank you.

18 A. We were posted here, stationed here, and we held this road. And

19 here, this way. I'm speaking only for our company.

20 MS. MOELLER: Can we take a snap-shot of this, please?

21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC76, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

23 MS. MOELLER: And can we then go to page 18 of the atlas. Can you

24 zoom in a little bit more around Subotica.

25 Q. Can you see on this map Prekaze which you mentioned as being one

1 of the terrorist bases?

2 A. I see. I can see it. Do you want me to show it?

3 Q. Yes. Please mark it, if you can.

4 A. [Marks].

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MS. MOELLER: Could we take an IC shot, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC77, Your Honours.

8 MS. MOELLER: Next I would like to go to Kosovo atlas page 16.

9 Q. You tell in your statement that one of the deployments was to

10 liberate the road between Pec and Decani and holding the villages of

11 Gornji Streoci and Donji Streci. I would also like you to mark on this

12 map, page 16 it is.

13 And while it is upcoming, maybe you can answer another question.

14 Did you -- was it in this operation when you saw Frenki Simatovic and

15 Legija in this area?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And what were they doing when you saw them?

18 A. We were getting ready together for the operation. They were ahead

19 of us, and as soon as we got orders we all set out to take up our

20 respective positions. They were ahead of us; we were behind. And that

21 was the only time I encountered them.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller, which page of the statement is this?

23 MS. MOELLER: Sorry, this is at the end of the statement, Your

24 Honours. It is page 22 at the bottom. And he states that he saw both of

25 them in May 1998 in the Pec area.

1 Can we please zoom in at Pec and Decani? Yes.

2 Q. Could you mark once more the road that you are referring to in

3 your statement and, if you can, the villages. Gornji Streoci and

4 Donji Streci, that is.

5 A. Well, I can't see what's written here, but the road is this.

6 Q. Mm-hmm. Okay. I think that's -- that's fine.

7 MS. MOELLER: Could we take --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the upper part of Gornji Streoci

9 is somewhere here, but I can't see it exactly. It's a very small map.

10 MS. MOELLER:

11 Q. I think that suffices.

12 MS. MOELLER: Can we take a shot, please?

13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC78, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

15 MS. MOELLER:

16 Q. In this operation in the Pec-Decani area, did you have VJ support?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Now, the next field deployment Prilep and Junik. Did you have VJ

19 support in this operation in 1998?

20 A. No.

21 Q. And in which operations, if any, would you have had VJ support in

22 1998?

23 A. In the operation at Junik village. There were some tanks sometime

24 in September -- actually, in August 1998.

25 MS. MOELLER: Could we pull up the last page in this atlas, 21,

1 just to make it complete, on which we could see the Prilep-Junik-Baboloc

2 area. And then zoom in at the upper right side, please, a little bit

3 more. Yeah. Yes.

4 Q. Witness, can you see Junik on this map?

5 A. I can.

6 Q. And could you mark again where this operation was conducted, as

7 far as you know.

8 A. [Marks].

9 Q. And do you remember where the VJ support was coming from?

10 A. The support consisted of Howitzers from the Radonjic lake.

11 Q. [Microphone not activated].

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the Prosecutor.

13 MS. MOELLER: Sorry.

14 Q. Would that be the lake, part of which you see in the right-hand

15 side of this map?

16 A. Yes. That should be that.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MS. MOELLER: Could we take one more IC shot, please?

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah.

20 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC79, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

22 Now, where is the reference to this particular operation in the

23 statement?

24 MS. MOELLER: That is on page 5, Your Honours, at the bottom. And

25 under "other operations," the first paragraph it refers to the VJ using

1 Howitzers fired from Lake Radonjic.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

3 MS. MOELLER:

4 Q. Sir, let us turn now to the uniforms that were worn in 1998. What

5 kind of uniform would the PJP wear in 1998?

6 MS. MOELLER: And if we could call up in the meantime

7 Exhibit P1326, please.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Am I supposed to describe the

9 uniform that we wore in 1998 or in 1999?

10 MS. MOELLER:

11 Q. In 1998, please.

12 A. In 1998 the uniform was a blue camouflage uniform with blue

13 pattern, and like all the other uniforms worn at the time.

14 However, at the beginning when we received uniforms in 1992, it

15 had a different black and grey pattern as opposed to the uniforms that we

16 received later on.

17 Q. And in 1998 did you wear any vests with these blue camouflage

18 patterned uniforms?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you describe the vest, colour?

21 A. A camouflage green vest. You can see it in the photo number 6.

22 Q. So this would have been the dress in 1998 for the PJP, like

23 picture 6 shows, right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What about the reservists in 1998, what kind of uniform would they

1 wear?

2 A. In 1998 there was no reserve -- or at least I didn't see any

3 reservists.

4 Q. Okay. And the regular MUP, what kind of uniform would they wear

5 in 1998?

6 A. The same kind of uniform. They didn't have a vest, though.

7 Q. Now, independent of the year, what kind of uniform would Frenki's

8 men wear, who you mention in your statement?

9 A. As you can see in photo number 8.

10 Q. Thank you. And if you have a look at photo number 4, who would be

11 looking similar to that in your experience?

12 A. Only local police or reservists.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MS. MOELLER: Could we turn to Exhibit P1323, please.

15 Q. Are you familiar with these insignia?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you explain to the Judges what the insignias are.

18 A. The first five are military, and number 6 and number 7 used to be

19 our police insignia.

20 MS. MOELLER: And can we turn to page number 2, please?

21 Q. And on this page, can you identify the insignia as well, the ones

22 that are familiar to you?

23 A. I can tell you only about the PJP and the SI -- SAI. I don't know

24 about the others.

25 Q. And the PJP would be which number, just to clarify?

1 A. Number 13.

2 Q. Mm-hmm. And the other one you've pointed to, was that number 12?

3 A. SAJ, yes, number 12.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you tell me what the initials "PJP" stand for?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Special police unit.

6 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I think there's a problem with the

7 translation. It's a word that doesn't translate well into English.

8 The Serbian word for "special" is "specijalna," which is not the

9 word that is for the PJP. The PJP is "posebne," which I think means --

10 the close translation comes -- that I come up with is separate police

11 unit. But perhaps the translators could help us with that. That's been a

12 recurring issue.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: You're on the 65 ter list of witnesses, Mr. Ivetic,

14 are you?

15 MR. IVETIC: I apologise.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: No, it is of assistance to us.

17 And can you tell me also, please, what the initials "SAJ" stand

18 for?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Special anti-terrorist unit.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

21 Ms. Moeller.

22 MS. MOELLER: Thank you.

23 Q. And as we're at this topic, can you also explain what JSO means.

24 A. A unit for special operations.

25 Q. Were they also called Frenki's men to some extent?

1 A. Not officially.

2 Q. But inofficially or not?

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 MS. MOELLER: Can we call up Exhibit P109, please.

5 Q. This is a map we are now calling up that you, sir, created and

6 that formed part of your statement. It is referred to on several

7 occasions in your statement, and I would like to -- I would like you to

8 explain to these Honourable Judges a little bit this map that we will be

9 seeing soon on the screen and what it -- what you marked on it.

10 I understand generally this map depicts the different units that

11 were deployed in the operation you participated in in March 1999 in the

12 municipalities of Orahovac and Prizren. Is that correct?

13 A. I still don't see the map.

14 Q. Yes. We hopefully have it soon.

15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16 JUDGE BONOMY: There's apparently a problem about publishing this

17 particular page on e-court, so can we move on and then come back to that

18 later?

19 MS. MOELLER: We can either do that or I have a P3 map here --

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that can go on the ELMO then.

21 MS. MOELLER: Yes. If that could be done.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: No sooner said than we have the problem resolved.

23 MS. MOELLER: Ah. Yes, you need to move up to where the markings

24 are. Yes, and go to the left a little bit. Yes.

25 Q. Witness, is that the map that I was just talking about, the map

1 that you drafted on?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. And can you explain what you noted on the map, what the different

4 columns depict, which units and which forces.

5 A. This is our unit, the 7th Company of the 23rd Detachment, and this

6 is the point of the local police, the VJ with three tanks, the Nis PJP,

7 and four companies from the 23rd Detachment, local MUP, a tank, and

8 another tank here, and the combat vehicles of the VJ.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Ms. Moeller, that seems to me to have confused

10 the situation.

11 MS. MOELLER: Yes, Your Honour --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Which might actually have been quite clear if we

13 just looked at what was written there in the first place.

14 MS. MOELLER: I agree. However, we have another map which was

15 created on the basis of this map which clarifies the situation again.

16 Actually, by now just drafting again these lines and setting out the --

17 the different forces, it will -- the next map I will call up will clarify,

18 it will show that it's the same, actually, a map that was done in a more

19 profession way to explain where the forces were but on the basis of this

20 very map and with the witness participating.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: You may be right, but the problem with what we've

22 just heard is that you don't know what he's referring to when he says

23 "this here" and "that there" as he draws on it, because the lines are all

24 the same colour now.

25 MS. MOELLER: Yeah.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Maybe you can, by close comparison, work that out.

2 But if you're wanting to use this, it may be that you should clarify what

3 he was referring to as he drew.

4 MS. MOELLER: I will try, Your Honour.

5 Q. Sir, where it states in green "Subotica," the line, the first red

6 line you draw above that word, who was positioned there?

7 A. This was our company, the 7th Company of the 23rd Detachment,

8 the PJP.

9 Q. And the circle you made at the end of this red line, what does

10 this depict?

11 A. This depicts the local MUP with their positions and their

12 check-point.

13 Q. Okay. Now, the red line going to the right from this circle, who

14 was stationed there or positioned there?

15 A. This was the VJ with three tanks.

16 Q. And the double blue line which was initially on this map already,

17 what does that depict?

18 A. This depicts the PJP that came from Nis.

19 Q. Now, moving back to the left-hand side it says in green

20 writing "local MUP," and you draw a red line next to these two words.

21 What does that red line depict?

22 A. It depicts the area of responsibility of the local MUP. There was

23 a tank there.

24 Q. [Microphone not activated].

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

1 MS. MOELLER:

2 Q. -- would that be -- are you -- do you understand me?

3 A. No. I did not receive interpretation for a brief moment.

4 Q. Okay, do you --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

6 MS. MOELLER:

7 Q. Do you hear me now?

8 A. Yes, now it's okay.

9 Q. At the local MUP, the circle that you drafted there, would that be

10 where the tank was stationed that you referred to?

11 A. Yes. One tank was there with them.

12 Q. And now the final red line that you drafted on -- on top of all

13 the other red lines, who was positioned there, which units?

14 A. The remaining three companies of the 23rd Detachment; the 1st one,

15 the 4th one, and I believe the 8th Company.

16 Q. Mm-hmm. And the two lines that were originally on this map which

17 are in purple and which start from a circle above which is written "local

18 MUP" and I can't read it, "Orahovac" I think, what does that depict?

19 A. This depicts the positions of the local SUP, the local police.

20 Q. Okay.

21 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, would that clarify this map

22 sufficiently?

23 JUDGE BONOMY: It does, thank you.

24 MS. MOELLER: Thank you.

25 Q. Sir, you created the original map yourself and you also signed

1 this map, did you?

2 A. I did indeed.

3 MS. MOELLER: Can we take a snap-shot of this map again?

4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC80, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

6 MS. MOELLER: And can we now call up the refined version of this

7 map; it's Exhibit P2373. And can we zoom in in the marked area again,

8 please. Yeah.

9 Q. Sir, are you familiar with this map as well?

10 A. I am.

11 Q. Was this used map -- sorry, was this map used when you testified

12 in the Milosevic trial?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And can you tell the Judges how this map was created. Were you

15 involved in the creation of this map as well?

16 A. I don't understand. What do you mean when was it created? At

17 what period? Before, or when we drew it up here at the Tribunal? What do

18 you mean?

19 Q. Yes. Was it created with your assistance.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. When you reviewed this map this week when you came to the

22 Tribunal, did you notice that there were some small things that you would

23 wish to correct on this version of the map?

24 A. Yes, there are some.

25 Q. And could you tell the Honourable Bench which are these small

1 amendments you would wish to make?

2 A. The 23rd Detachment; i.e., the 7th Company of the 23rd Detachment,

3 had its area of responsibility from Rogovo to Mala Krusa. But in the part

4 that I'm going to mark now there was nobody because there was a clearing

5 there and there was no need for anybody to be there. So there were none

6 of our troops there. The place where the road joins the railway track,

7 there was nobody. From there to the village, there was nobody.

8 Q. Can you connect the two red dots that you just made, please.

9 A. [Marks].

10 Q. And just to make sure we understand you correctly, there were no

11 troops in this area that you just draw the red line?

12 A. Correct.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, I'm not seeing the red line. Where --

14 MS. MOELLER: It's next to the green line, the bottom green line.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, yeah, I see it now, but it's -- the colour is

16 odd. Yeah. Okay.

17 MS. MOELLER: Yes.

18 Q. Sir, how did you know how all these different forces were

19 positioned there?

20 A. We received the same type of maps when we were sent out to carry

21 out that operation.

22 Q. Can you explain -- what do you mean by "the same type of maps"?

23 A. The same map that I drew up in a very similar form was given to us

24 before any operation, and that map depicted the direction of action that

25 we were to take in cooperation with the VJ. Actually, the VJ was never

1 depicted on our maps. However, we received oral information as to the

2 place where they were deployed.

3 Q. And indeed, according to your statement and your testimony in the

4 previous trial, VJ vehicles were positioned very close to where you were,

5 is that correct, in this particular operation?

6 A. Yes. They were deployed along the road as we arrived there.

7 Q. And your unit would communicate orally with them. Is that also

8 correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. Now, according to this map and also according to your statement,

11 you were aware of five VJ tanks positioned in this operation, right?

12 A. Yes.

13 MS. MOELLER: Could we take a snap-shot of this map. And then I

14 would like to go to a different exhibit, please.

15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC81, Your Honours.

16 MS. MOELLER: And if we then could call up Exhibit 1325, 1-3-2-5.

17 Can we go to the next page, please.

18 Q. The VJ tanks that you saw positioned in this operation, are any of

19 the ones depicted on this exhibit resembling those that you saw?

20 A. Yes, picture number 6.

21 Q. And from the pictures on this side, are there any other vehicles

22 shown that the PJP would use in operations, other operations or this one?

23 A. Yes, picture number 7, Pinzgauer; and picture number 8 are those

24 trucks. I'm not really an expert, but it's -- refers to what is depicted

25 in this picture.

1 Q. Thank you. In this 1999 operation, which kind of uniform did the

2 PJP wear then?

3 A. 1999?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. They had camouflage uniforms in a green/yellow pattern with combat

6 vests.

7 Q. What happened to the blue camouflage uniforms that you had in

8 1998? Did you have those as well with you?

9 A. Yes, we did.

10 Q. And do you know whether they were used by some PJP members as

11 well?

12 A. Yes. In -- sorry. In 1998, as far as I know, no.

13 Q. Sorry, I think that was a misunderstanding. I was asking whether

14 the blue camouflage uniforms that the PJP used in 1998 were also worn in

15 Kosovo in 1999 by members of the PJP sometimes.

16 A. We wore them as an integral part of our combat sets, but we did

17 not actually put them on in 1999.

18 Q. What uniforms did the local MUP have in 1999 in the Orahovac

19 operation that you testified about?

20 A. They had blue camouflage uniforms, like all the others.

21 Q. And the MUP reservists, how would they be dressed?

22 A. The same uniforms.

23 Q. The same like the regular MUP, is that?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. And VJ reservists, how -- what would they wear, what kind of

1 uniform?

2 A. I did not come across them.

3 Q. While you were operating in Kosovo in 1999 in this area we talked

4 about in March, did you come across any paramilitaries, meaning forces

5 that would obviously operate outside chains of command?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you see some individuals who would wear bandannas and big

8 knives, ammunition belts, or any other kind of martial war gear?

9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I don't think this is in any of the

10 statements that I received, so I'm wondering if the learned counsel could

11 point me as to where -- in which of the original statements it appears or

12 in the 65 ter summary.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Ms. Moeller, is there any such --

14 MS. MOELLER: The witness refers to the JSO wearing bandannas in

15 his statement.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the -- that's enough, because it spoils the

17 objective of the question if we give the answers.

18 It's so close to the subject matter in any event, Mr. Ivetic, is

19 it not, that it's difficult to see what's wrong with this line of

20 examination.

21 MR. IVETIC: Well, if that's as far as they're going --

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, let's hear what the answer is.

23 MR. IVETIC: Okay.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller.

25 MS. MOELLER: Yes.

1 Q. Sir, did you see -- do you recall the question or shall I repeat

2 it?

3 A. Will you please repeat it.

4 Q. Yes. Did you see while you were in the area of the -- of this

5 particular operation individuals who would wear bandannas or big knives,

6 ammunition belts or any other kind of martial war gear?

7 A. No, I didn't see any such people.

8 Q. And in other operations you participated in, would you sometimes

9 see such persons with [microphone override] outfits?

10 A. Only when we came across members of the JSO near Orahovac at

11 Vranstena [phoen].

12 Q. When you first went to Kosovo, did -- did you have some people in

13 your own unit who would wear adventurous outfits?

14 A. Yes, a couple of them on the journey there, but not -- not there,

15 not at the destination.

16 Q. And how would they look?

17 A. Ridiculous.

18 Q. Can you explain it a little bit further. Do you recall some

19 details?

20 A. Rambo style. Is that good enough for you?

21 Q. No. I would like you to elaborate a little bit more. Describe

22 this person, what he would dress like.

23 A. Well, in addition to our regular uniform, he also wore bandannas,

24 knives and in sheaths that did not belong to our regular equipment. And

25 of course as soon as the commanders would see them, they would be forced

1 to take it all off. It was more of a joke, really. They were a

2 laughing-stock.

3 Q. But nevertheless these were persons who were PJP members, were

4 they?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, in your personal experience, having participated in this

7 operation, could there have been any forces operating outside the chains

8 of command of the forces that were present in this area?

9 A. That was not possible.

10 Q. And why do you say that?

11 A. It's not possible that I did not come across them a single time in

12 all my time there.

13 Q. Now, in your statement --

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I find that a question that I don't really

15 understand that you've asked. This is an incident where the inference to

16 be drawn is that a number of people were murdered. Is that right?

17 MS. MOELLER: I was referring to the general operation that was

18 taking place in this area. Some of the murder incidents charged in the

19 indictment are in this general region, but we are dealing at the moment

20 with the overall operation that was conducted in this area. And my

21 question was in relation to that.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Over what period of time are you asking the witness

23 to say whether any of the forces around him could have been acting outwith

24 the normal chain of command?

25 MS. MOELLER: Well, I asked him in his personal experience, and

1 according to his statement he was in this operation from 24 to 29 March.

2 So I thought I was referring to this period, but I can clarify.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, does it not follow that that answer applies

4 to the MUP officers who he suggests were involved in the killings? Is

5 that what your question is related to, that that was something that

6 happened within the ordinary chain of command?

7 MS. MOELLER: It is related to the -- to the term "paramilitary,"

8 which of course over and over in this trial as witnesses talking about

9 paramilitaries --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: But he said he didn't encounter any paramilitaries.

11 MS. MOELLER: Yes.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. I'm only expressing my bafflement at

13 the moment, but carry on.

14 MS. MOELLER:

15 Q. Sir, you also refer to reservists in your statement; that is

16 pages 1 and 9 of the English version. And you referred to some

17 differences between reservists in Kosovo and in the rest of Serbia. What

18 was the difference in how reservists were drafted in Kosovo and in the

19 rest of Serbia, to your knowledge?

20 A. In the whole country the military departments dealt with the

21 recruitment of the reservists, assigning part of them to the army, another

22 part to the police. In Serbia it was possible to carry out because

23 everything was okay, but in Kosovo you had ethnic Albanians who didn't

24 want any part of it. And one had to create an appropriate reserve force

25 out of the Serbs. But there was not even enough regular policemen to

1 guard them, so these reservists would stay in their own places of

2 residence and guard their own homes themselves.

3 Q. And in your statement you say that: "In earlier times," meaning

4 before the events in Kosovo as I understand it, "police reserve was more

5 disciplined and more structured."

6 What do you mean by that?

7 A. Because the reserve forces mobilised depending on the situation in

8 the country. If everything is normal, you can raise any number of

9 reservists. But when the going is rough, it's difficult to find people.

10 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zecevic, yes.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: I have the objection to the transcript. It is not

13 exactly what the witness had said; quite different, actually.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you explain what he actually said?

15 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, he actually said that in the -- in the normal

16 situation you can raise one, two, or five units of the reservists; but

17 once you are obliged to raise all the reservist units, that is when the

18 problem starts. That is exactly what he said, and it can be clarified

19 with the witness.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah.

21 The question -- well, the answer you had given was if -- just --

22 you were referred to your statement where you said: "In earlier times,"

23 meaning before the events in Kosovo, "police reservists were more

24 disciplined and more structured," and you were then asked what you meant

25 by that.

1 Now, can you tell us again what you meant by that?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you just repeat.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, in your statement you say: "In earlier

4 times," that's before the Kosovo crisis, "police reserves were more

5 disciplined and more structured."

6 And the question was: What did you mean by that? Now, could you

7 answer that question again, please.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the police reserve was raised,

9 then people were chosen who had secondary education, who used to be

10 military policemen in the army or similar profiles, without criminal

11 records, without anything that would be in the way of their performing

12 regular police duties. That is why they were selected before.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: And what was different about the situation in 1998

14 and 1999?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Serbia it didn't change. It

16 changed down there because you had to fill the units with -- up to the

17 necessary level, and there were not enough men because you only had Serbs

18 to choose from. So they were all needed in the reserve.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller.

20 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Q. Police reservists in Serbia outside Kosovo, would they have

22 weapons at home or would they be issued weapons only for specific

23 occasions when they were drafted up?

24 A. Outside of Kosova, only when that was necessary, when it was

25 required.

1 Q. And inside Kosovo, how would the situation have been there or how

2 was it?

3 A. The reserve force, apart from all those things that reservists in

4 Serbia had, also had automatic weapons that we, the regular police,

5 checked to see if the weapons were clean, if all the rounds were there,

6 et cetera.

7 Q. You actually yourself in 1993 and 1997 did some of this checking

8 of weapons that were given to reservists in Kosovo, did you?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. MOELLER: Your Honour, this is in the statement. It's on

11 page 20, and it is a little bit misplaced there. This is why I highlight

12 it, because it refers actually to the previous time, 1999 and 1997 and to

13 the reserve forces.

14 Q. Now, in the operation --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: At the moment, though, I have to say I'm not

16 understanding what the distinction is.

17 MS. MOELLER: We can clarify this.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: There are two separate issues that you've raised,

19 and I don't think the position's been made clear about either. One is the

20 nature of the individuals who were becoming reservists; and the other is

21 where they kept their weapons.

22 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honours. I will clarify that.

23 Q. Sir, you -- do I understand correctly that you are saying in

24 Serbia, outside of Kosovo --

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, be very careful if you're about to ask a

1 leading question.

2 MS. MOELLER: Yes.

3 Q. You were talking about the selection procedure for police

4 reservists in Serbia outside of Kosovo. Was the same selection procedure

5 applied for MUP reservists in Kosovo or was it different?

6 A. I don't know that. I can only tell you what I suppose, but I

7 don't really know. In villages all Serbs were in the reserve force.

8 Q. You're saying all -- sorry --

9 A. If they were fit, of course, not infirm.

10 Q. Yes.

11 MS. MOELLER: Does that clarify the point sufficiently for Your

12 Honours?

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, I --

14 JUDGE BONOMY: All it tells me is that according to the witness

15 all Serbs who were fit were in the reserve force. I -- nothing wrong with

16 that, as far as I can tell.

17 If you're trying to suggest some -- some other -- or make some

18 other implication about the membership of the reserve forces certainly not

19 been made in the evidence we've heard so far.

20 Mr. Ackerman.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, after that last answer, I -- I would

22 just object to the whole line of questioning. Because when she asked was

23 the selection procedure in Kosovo different, what he said was: I don't

24 know. I can only tell you what I suppose. And I'm not sure if it's

25 helpful to the Chamber to know what it is he supposes. He admits to you

1 now that he really doesn't know.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't think he's been asked what he supposes.

3 All he's said was a matter of fact, all the Serbs in the villages were in

4 the reserve forces.

5 Ms. Moeller.

6 MS. MOELLER:

7 Q. Regarding the issue of the weapons, I would like to go back to

8 that. MUP reservists in Serbia, outside of Kosovo, would they have any

9 weapons at home with them?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And MUP reservists in Kosovo, would they have weapons at their

12 homes?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And I think you already stated what kind of weapons as well. Can

15 you repeat that?

16 A. Yes. Automatic weapons.

17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Please allow me to try to be of

18 assistance. I'm afraid that we are comparing two incomparable things.

19 When you ask this gentleman, who used to be a regular policeman, you are

20 comparing the regular peacetime situation in Serbia and the regular

21 mobilisation into the reservist force during call-ups with the wartime

22 situation in Kosovo. These things are incomparable, and that's why you

23 can't get an answer.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila, that's a matter for cross-examination and

25 possibly comment later, but not -- you'll get your chance to deal with

1 this. Thank you. But thank you for your efforts to be helpful.

2 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I just wanted to be of assistance.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

4 Ms. Moeller.

5 MS. MOELLER:

6 Q. Now, the MUP reservists that were participating in the operations

7 in March 1999, were they supervised by any commanders, to your knowledge?

8 A. They had their own command, but whether they were supervised or

9 not, I really can't say.

10 Q. How did they behave? What did you observe about them in this

11 operation?

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, before you answer that question, could you

13 distinguish a MUP regular from a MUP reservist?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: So how can he answer that question, if it's a

16 question confined to MUP reservists? We've heard that they wear the same

17 uniform.

18 MS. MOELLER: Very well, Your Honour. I withdraw that question.

19 Q. I would now like to move on to the events at the Hajdari compound.

20 MS. MOELLER: Can we call up Exhibit 99, please. Page 2, please.

21 Q. Sir, this is an aerial photo of the village of Mala Krusa, and I

22 would like you, if you can, to indicate to the Honourable Judges

23 whereabouts was the Hajdari compound at which the headquarters of your

24 unit was.

25 A. I've already said it once. If this is the road to Beli Drim, then

1 it is here. If this is not it, then I can't tell you. I'm missing one

2 part of the photo where the railway station would be depicted.

3 Q. How far in terms of distance was the Hajdari compound, in your

4 estimation, away from the main village, which is depicted at the

5 right-hand side of this photo?

6 A. What is the exact position of the village, in the middle, to the

7 left, to the right? What do you mean?

8 Q. Well, the right, where you have a semblance of houses. The

9 right-hand side of this photograph.

10 A. The distance is about 300 to 350 metres.

11 Q. And in relation to where your unit was positioned, the local MUP

12 that you referred to in your statement, was it closer to the main road or

13 further away?

14 A. The local MUP was directly on the main road, at the crossroads of

15 roads to Prizren, to Beli Drim, and towards us.

16 Q. Now, I would like you to explain today, again, why you found it

17 necessary to send the Hajdari family away from their compound through --

18 basically through the backdoor, in the opposite direction of the main

19 road, on which the main flow of refugees was going, as you describe in

20 your statement.

21 A. It will take me an hour to explain, but I'll try. There was a

22 concern that the local policemen will catch them, because they had already

23 been looking for them. And the local police, as I've told you, were on

24 the main road.

25 Q. And if I'm correct, we are talking about three local police

1 members, are we?

2 A. Yes. There were three, six, and four; however, only three of them

3 were involved in this particular event.

4 Q. And the particular event preceding that, you referred to in your

5 statement as well; the shooting of captured men, right, who were wearing

6 KLA insignia?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Why weren't these three MUP officers not arrested on the spot when

9 it turned out that they had killed these men?

10 A. We didn't know immediately. It was only maybe on the following

11 day.

12 Q. So you don't remember when you found out about this the first

13 time?

14 A. I can't remember when we realised that they had been killed.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, can I ask you if you can clarify something

16 that I certainly couldn't understand clearly from the statement.

17 You gave evidence in this statement of two separate groups of men

18 being taken by police officers, by MUP officers, and you give evidence of

19 seeing the bodies of the first group taken. Now, did that event occur

20 before the event you are now being asked about in relation to the Hajdari

21 family compound?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that was before.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: And the three police officers that you suspected of

24 killing - is it six people? - are the same three police officers as you

25 encounter in the Hajdari compound?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Actually, two were the same

2 and the third one was not. At that moment their make-up was not the same,

3 the composition was not the same.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, at that time, had you seen the bodies of the

5 six men?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not on that day -- actually,

7 yes, on that day but only in the evening. And it was just our assumption

8 that this is what had happened.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what was it that made you concerned for the

10 well-being of those in the Hajdari compound?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That same evening, when we saw the

12 dead bodies, we realised what had transpired. And from then on, we did

13 not have any contact with the local police.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's not helping me because you've told me

15 that when you saw these officers, these policemen, at the Hajdari

16 compound, you were not aware of the six bodies. So what was it that made

17 you anxious --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We suspected.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: So you already suspected, what, that they had

20 killed them?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In my statement I explain

22 exactly why.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: So Ms. Moeller's question, then, is: Why didn't

24 you arrest them?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not have any more contact

1 with them. When we found evidence, we had already lost contact with them.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller.

3 MS. MOELLER:

4 Q. Did you report to your commander about this incident?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And when did you do so?

7 A. I can't tell you exactly whether it was on that same day or on the

8 following day. There was combat going on, and he spent very little time

9 there.

10 Q. And what did your commanding officer say when you told him that?

11 A. He didn't say anything. Later on he drafted a report, but we had

12 already left.

13 Q. Did he tell you that he drafted a report?

14 A. Yes, he did.

15 Q. During the same operation you observed another crime, the robbing

16 of some civilians by, you say, MUP police -- MUP Prizren police officers;

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And your commanding officer was with you during this incident, was

20 he?

21 A. Yes, he was.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Where is the reference to the robbery in the

23 statement?

24 MS. MOELLER: That's --

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Apart from page 5 -- apart from page 15, rather?

1 MS. MOELLER: I'm sorry, it's -- sorry, Your Honours, I have to

2 look through it. It is a long statement. Can you give me a minute? I'm

3 sorry. It's page 15, the lower half of the page.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: But is it just that one sentence?

5 MS. MOELLER: No, it refers to this. It's a whole paragraph

6 describing -- the paragraph starts with: "My commanding officer

7 Lieutenant" so-and-so.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Just going slightly before that, the paragraph that

9 begins: "We were having no problems with the 66 people in the Hajdari

10 compound ..."

11 Is that referred to before that stage in the statement?

12 MS. MOELLER: The -- you mean the -- the unit having --

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Just this -- it seemed to come out of the blue, "we

14 were having no problems with the 66 people in the Hajdari compound."

15 Now, is there an earlier reference to them? I mean, it looks as

16 though this is something that has already be dealt with in the statement,

17 and I couldn't find the earlier reference but perhaps didn't have enough

18 time to do it.

19 MS. MOELLER: No, Your Honour, I have to concede that the

20 statement is not very chronologically logical; that's why I wanted to lead

21 some evidence live as well.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. But it's as if, you know, that this is

23 something we already know about and we now turn to the question: Well,

24 we're having no problems with these people.

25 MS. MOELLER: Yes. No, actually, it --

1 JUDGE BONOMY: There is no earlier reference?

2 MS. MOELLER: Yes, you're right. The Hajdari -- details of the

3 Hajdari compound actually start only on page 16 of the statement.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

5 MS. MOELLER:

6 Q. So this incident when you came across members of the Prizren MUP

7 trying to rob some refugees, do you recall when that was? Was that before

8 or after the killing took place at the Hajdari compound?

9 A. First there was our action, then six KLA members were arrested and

10 handed over to the local police. They took them to this house. Two came

11 back. One stayed behind. In the meantime, we handed over another three.

12 And when the third person came back we realised that the first group of

13 prisoners were not guarded and that they must have been killed. We did

14 not check that until the following day.

15 On the following day, they tried to enter the Hajdari house; this

16 was not allowed. And during that day -- before we convinced ourselves

17 that these people had indeed been killed, they tried to rob the people in

18 the column.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: It must be me again, but were they killed at the

20 Hajdari compound?

21 MS. MOELLER: Close -- I can --

22 JUDGE BONOMY: I mean, your question was: Was that before or

23 after the killing took place at the Hajdari compound? Now, what killing

24 is that a reference to?

25 MS. MOELLER: That was a reference to the captured men --

1 JUDGE BONOMY: So we're not talking about another killing that

2 happened at the Hajdari --

3 MS. MOELLER: No.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

5 MS. MOELLER: I'm sorry.

6 Q. Now --

7 A. This did not take place at the Hajdari compound, not there, but at

8 a compound next to theirs.

9 Q. Yes. Thank you for this clarification. I think that's clear in

10 your statement.

11 Going back to the incident with the attempted robbery, why weren't

12 these members of the Prizren MUP, as you say, not arrested on this

13 occasion?

14 A. They pulled their weapons against us, and we responded in the same

15 way. We had enough problems with the terrorists and we wanted to avoid

16 having problems amongst ourselves, because we had plenty on our hands as

17 it was; it was war. They were armed and they were standing at 5 metres

18 from us, and there would have been dead and wounded, that's for sure.

19 Q. So they could just leave after this incident?

20 A. It all depends on the way you look at it. Nobody allowed them to

21 go. They just got into the car and they left. We could not chase them.

22 We could not go after them because we had our own area of responsibility.

23 Q. And just to finish this area, one more question. What did your

24 commander and your unit do after this incident, if anything?

25 A. We informed Prizren and our own command and we proceeded and

1 engaged in the following action.

2 Q. What do you mean by "we informed Prizren"?

3 A. We informed them by radio, and I'm referring to the Prizren SUP.

4 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, I see the time --

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Informed them of what? Can you tell us what you

6 informed them about?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That we had had an incident and that

8 there was an attempted robbery of the people in the column and that the

9 people who were involved were their people. We didn't know who they were.

10 There were no registration plates on their vehicles, so we were not in a

11 position to tell them who they were, to identify them.

12 MS. MOELLER:

13 Q. And to your knowledge, on the previous occasion of the shooting of

14 the captured men, was the Prizren SUP also radioed and informed about what

15 had happened close to the event?

16 A. How? We didn't know about it.

17 Q. Well, after you found out about it.

18 A. The commander of the 23rd Detachment was informed about that.

19 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, this is one more snap-shot to be

20 taken, please, of this exhibit which is on the screen now, and then I

21 would --

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.

23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC82, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

25 Now, sir, we have to stop there for the day because another case

1 occupies this court in the afternoon. That means that you will require to

2 return here to continue your evidence tomorrow; that will be at 2.15 in

3 the afternoon. Meanwhile between now and then, it is vital that you do

4 not discuss your evidence in the case with anyone, that's either the

5 evidence you have given or the evidence you may yet give. You can talk

6 about anything else with anyone you wish, but you must keep off the

7 subject of your evidence. We'll see you again at 2.15 tomorrow.

8 Meanwhile, please remain where you are until we leave the court and then

9 you'll be shown how to leave.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 12th day of

12 October, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.

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