1 Thursday, 9 November 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.

6 MR. MARCUSSEN: If Your Honour would like me to address the

7 archive issue a bit more, then I should be in a better position to do.

8 But we can do that later or maybe we don't need to address it.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, let's see how the evidence progresses first

11 of all.

12 Good afternoon, Mr. Zyrapi.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: The evidence will resume again. As always, the

15 solemn declaration to tell the truth continues to apply to your evidence.

16 Mr. Ackerman.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honours.

18 WITNESS: BISLIM ZYRAPI [Resumed]

19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman: [Continued]

21 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, I want to talk to you now about statements you gave to

22 the Office of the Prosecutor. The first statement that I'm aware of was

23 one you gave over a two-day period on the 22nd of November, 2005, and then

24 again on the 25th of November, 2005. And according to my information,

25 this was given in the Pristina field office of the OTP. Is that all

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And that's the same office that you delivered these documents from

4 the archives to when you took them in, isn't it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And do you remember that the persons who interviewed you were

7 named Ole Lehtinen and Philippe Vallieres-Roland?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And did you ever have any contact with either of them other than

10 these two days when you were interviewed?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And they were both from the Office of the Prosecutor, to your

13 knowledge?

14 A. That's how they interviewed themselves.

15 Q. And there was an interpreter there to assist with the language

16 issue. Was anyone else there? Was it just you and those three persons?

17 A. To my recollection, these were the only persons that were there.

18 Q. All right. Now, the -- the interviews took place on -- during

19 this week, on a Tuesday and on a Friday. The 22nd was a Tuesday and the

20 25th was a Friday. What happened on Wednesday and Thursday? I mean, why

21 weren't you interviewed on those two days instead of carrying over then

22 until the Friday?

23 A. I don't remember. It was working days, something like that.

24 Q. Mm-hmm. Okay. I just want -- I don't want to spend a lot of time

25 on this, but I would like to just find out from you exactly how this

1 statement was taken. Were they typing -- were they typing what you were

2 saying while they were speaking to you? Is that the way this statement

3 was prepared, or was it prepared in a different way or do you know?

4 A. To what I know, they wrote down the statement that I was giving.

5 Q. And there was a time, wasn't there, I guess on the 25th, when you

6 were presented with a typewritten copy of it that you were asked to review

7 and sign. Is that true?

8 A. Yes, on that day I signed my statement.

9 Q. And I take it that while this statement was given it wasn't being

10 recorded or anything like that; they were just making notes of what you

11 were saying. Is that true?

12 A. No, they recorded it as well.

13 Q. An audio-recording or what?

14 A. Audio-recording, yes. There was an audio-recording equipment.

15 Q. Okay. Now, the second statement on the 6th of July that you gave

16 here at The Hague, it indicated that Jonathan Sutch and Keith Scully were

17 the people who interviewed you at that time. Was it pretty much done the

18 same way?

19 A. When I gave the second statement in July, the computer was there.

20 They were typing it.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. I don't know if it was recorded or not.

23 Q. All right. All right. Thank you.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters kindly request for the witness to

25 speak up. Thank you.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zyrapi, you're being asked by the interpreters

2 if you could speak up a little. If you just sit back -- just sit back

3 from the microphone and speak just a little bit more loudly.

4 Mr. Ackerman, is there a point related to these statements?

5 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm finished with them, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: But what's the point of this?

7 MR. ACKERMAN: I didn't think we had ever really established in

8 this Tribunal the method by which these statements were taken, the

9 complete method, so I just wanted to get that in the record.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: For what it's worth, which may be nothing, Your

12 Honour, in the final analysis, I agree.

13 Q. Sir, I'd like you to look at Exhibit P2449 again. You've seen

14 this before. These are the -- the interim regulations of the KLA that you

15 brought to us, and I'm interested in the first page of that right after

16 the title page. And we'll get to that next page I think in just a second.

17 And you told us in your testimony the other day that this document was --

18 was updated. You were asked by Mr. Marcussen at page 5945 of the

19 transcript: "To your knowledge, was this document updated since the

20 version that we're looking at now?" And you said: "Yes, with the passage

21 of time we made changes to it. We updated it. Like, for example, the

22 greetings, the saluting, and other things which time required us to change

23 depending on the further developments and growth of the KLA."

24 I'm wondering why you brought us a version that was basically out

25 of date instead of -- of the updated version, which might be more relevant

1 to what we're doing here.

2 A. I only had this version. I couldn't find the other version.

3 Q. Now, you talked about this version having been produced in large

4 quantities and distributed all throughout the KLA down to as low as the

5 squad level; correct?

6 A. I know it was printed out and distributed to the zones, and then

7 it was the responsibility of the zones to distribute it to lower levels.

8 Q. And apparently that didn't happen with the updated versions or you

9 wouldn't have had so much difficulty finding it, if it was produced in

10 such large quantity; correct?

11 A. I don't remember. The changes that were made in the new versions

12 were distributed to lower levels, but I don't know how many copies

13 remained.

14 Q. Mm-hmm. Well, when you -- when you answered Mr. Marcussen's

15 question about updates, you didn't say anything about the oath; but then

16 when Mr. Petrovic asked you about the oath, you said that also had been

17 changed, didn't you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, the -- the oath that's contained in this document that you've

20 provided us contains this language, and you'll see it there on your

21 screen: "As a member of the Kosovo Liberation Army, I swear that I will

22 fight for the liberation of the occupied territories of Albania and their

23 unification."

24 That language certainly appears there, doesn't it?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Now, is that the oath that you took when you became a member of

2 the KLA?

3 A. When I became a member of the KLA, I didn't take this oath.

4 Q. Did you take any oath?

5 A. When I joined the KLA, I of course gave a statement that I joined

6 the KLA. That statement was approved by the General Staff, and that's how

7 I became a member.

8 Q. This military oath that's contained in this document, if you look

9 at paragraph 3 a little further down the page, it says that -- it's an act

10 of particular significance in the life of every soldier. And paragraph 4

11 it's to be taken before the flag and that the officer who gives the oath,

12 there in paragraph 6 you'll see - I think that's probably the next page in

13 the Albanian document - that the officer is supposed to read the text and

14 interrupt him so he can repeat what he says in unison.

15 So according to this, it's treated pretty seriously, isn't it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, what do you think would happen if -- if one of the KLA

18 recruits refused to take that oath and said, I'm not interested in the

19 liberation of the occupied territories of Albania and their unification.

20 I just want to join the KLA to defend my village. I guess he wouldn't be

21 permitted to be part of the KLA, would he?

22 A. I don't know. There weren't such cases.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Could we look --

24 Q. There weren't such cases. Okay. Thank you.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Could we look, please, at P2469 now.

1 Q. Another one of the maps that you're familiar with.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: And if we could just blow it up just a little bit

3 and go down toward the bottom.

4 Q. Now, what I want to ask you, and you may not know, but I want to

5 ask you if you can show us on this map what the occupied territories of

6 Albania were, as this oath speaks of. And clearly that must have included

7 Kosovo, but apparently also parts of Macedonia and Montenegro. Can you

8 outline those parts for us and maybe part of Serbia. Can you -- can you

9 find them on this map and maybe draw a line around them or something, so

10 we can see what parts of all these countries the KLA was fighting for?

11 A. I've already stated that as they have envisaged it earlier, it

12 should comprise of territories inhabited by Albanian majority.

13 Q. But you don't know what those territories are? Oh, yeah, you're

14 drawing it now. Okay.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Let me ask you something -- now it's too late. Go ahead, draw

17 your lines as best you can.

18 A. During the time I was in office, this was not the case, but I'm

19 just drawing the line how it could have been imagined.

20 Q. I think maybe we're not going to get the result we want with this

21 map blown up like this, so let's start over again and put the map back --

22 a fresh one on the page and focus on the upper right-hand corner. And

23 maybe with that little map in the upper right-hand corner blown up, you'll

24 be able to do a better job. We'll see if you can.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: If we just put this map on without blowing it,

1 you'll have the whole area, will you not?

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, that may be true, Your Honour. We can try

3 that.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's bring it back to its normal size.

5 MR. ACKERMAN:

6 Q. Okay. Now, try to do it now the way it is. We just have the map

7 on the screen.

8 A. Do you want me to draw the line?

9 Q. I do.

10 A. As I said earlier, when I joined the KLA, this was not the case.

11 But this is what was imagined.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you mean to include in this area any part of

13 Bulgaria?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: So where the right-hand boundary is in fairly rough

16 terms, you mean it to run in line with the boundary of Kosovo, do you?

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry. It's my mistake. I'm sorry. I'm

19 misreading the map.

20 MR. ACKERMAN:

21 Q. How about Greece? Is any part of Greece included in this concept

22 of occupied territories of Albania?

23 A. No, not during my time in office.

24 Q. All right.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Could we have that photographed and made an

1 exhibit, please.

2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC107, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Now, I want to put 2449 back on the screen. We may

5 not need it, but just in case.

6 Q. Sir, do you remember, without looking at it, that this set of

7 regulations you gave us has a chapter 1 and a chapter 2. And then if you

8 turn to the page, it goes to chapter 5. Do you remember that? Chapter 3

9 and 4 are missing.

10 A. I don't remember. I don't remember. What I could find, I brought

11 it here.

12 Q. And I take it you don't remember what chapters 3 and 4 were about?

13 A. No, I don't remember.

14 Q. And then there's also no chapter -- well, maybe -- all right.

15 Now, you said that one of the things that was changed was

16 saluting. In chapter 5, Roman numeral IV, number 4, I don't know if the

17 registrar can get us to that point or not. I'll just read you what the

18 translation says. "Military saluting is carried out with the arm

19 stretched out." And then you told us that that -- the new version

20 changed "saluting." It's paragraph IV under number 4. You have to go up

21 I think and back a page, maybe.

22 Can you tell us what was changed if the salute originally was

23 carried out with the arm stretched out -- maybe you can demonstrate for us

24 what that meant. Was it stretched out to the side or to the front? How

25 was the armed stretched out in this salute?

1 A. Well, in the beginning, the saluting was with the right-hand side

2 with a fist, and then it changed into a stretched hand. You put your

3 right hand close to your head, and that's how you salute.

4 Q. So would you look at me. At first it was with the fist and off to

5 the side of your body like this or up like this or to your head like this?

6 Why don't you do it so we can see it.

7 A. In the beginning it was with a fist, like this, and later it

8 changed into a stretched hand like this.

9 Q. Okay. To describe what you're doing. You've got your arm crooked

10 with your fist against your right temple, and then you've got your palm

11 outstretched with the tips of your fingers touching your right temple. Is

12 that correct?

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman, is there any purpose in this

14 cross-examination? It would help me if you could tell me where we're

15 going with it to understand its significance.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm trying to figure out what saluting carried out

17 with the arm stretched out is. The only time I've seen such a salute it

18 looked like this.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Indeed that's what it sounds like in the

20 translation if it's an accurate translation. But what's the point in the

21 case? Help me on that.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: I was wondering if there might not have been some

23 kind of fascist influence in the original KLA.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: So what?

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, it might tell you something about the

1 character of the organisation, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: You don't think there's been loads of evidence

3 about that already?

4 MR. ACKERMAN: I think there's been quite a bit, yes. I'm

5 finished with that. I now have one final question on this document --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, if you think it's relevant, what I'd like to

7 see is the Albanian version of this translated by the witness, so that we

8 can hear whether it's the hand of the arm that's referred to.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: That would be fine with me. It's not on the screen

10 yet, but it could be if we go down one number. It's number 4. It's the

11 next number down.

12 MR. MARCUSSEN: I think you have to go to the next page.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: It's the top of the next page then. Well, I don't

14 know how that was even translated.

15 Q. Sir, can you read what it says there, the top line.

16 A. It's not very clear, the copy. "Military saluting is done through

17 outstretched hand," it says, but the copied part is not legible.

18 Q. Okay.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: There's -- it seems a fairly significant

20 translation difficulty if the word is "hand" and not "arm."

21 MR. MARCUSSEN: Yes, but the witness is primarily here to testify,

22 to establish whether or not there was an armed conflict of an internal

23 nature and the structure of the KLA and those sorts of things. But yes,

24 there is a problem there, but getting back to the relevance here of the

25 cross I guess.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, of course the witness is not confined to the

2 purpose for which the Prosecution may have brought him. But this -- this

3 is what -- is this a CLSS translation?

4 MR. MARCUSSEN: I think so, yes, but I would have to check.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we'll have it checked I think, although

6 whether they can work with the copy or not, I don't know. But the court

7 deputy will raise that and we'll get a report, which we'll circulate.

8 Mr. Ackerman.

9 MR. MARCUSSEN: Sorry. My well-informed case manager tells me

10 that from the way the document -- the translation is numbered, it can be

11 seen that it is an official translation.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

13 MR. ACKERMAN:

14 Q. Under chapter VII, paragraph 3, and then at numbered paragraph 4,

15 the regulation provided that: "Soldiers must be given enough time to rest

16 so they're not tired while at the positions."

17 Was that ever changed or did that stay as part of the regulations?

18 A. It remained the same.

19 Q. All right.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm sorry for those little delays, but

21 if I don't touch my computer for half an hour it quits me, and then I

22 don't have a transcript to watch.

23 All right. I'm finished with that document.

24 Q. I want to ask you about a couple of people. Who is Adem Demaqi?

25 A. Adem Demaqi was a spokesperson of the KLA during the war. Before

1 the war, he was imprisoned for political reasons, and after the war, I

2 don't know what he is engaged in. But I know that during the war he was a

3 KLA spokesperson.

4 Q. And during that time in 1999, during the war when he was the KLA

5 spokesperson, did he have any particular authority? Was he able to make

6 decisions and things of that nature, or did he just speak for those who

7 could make decisions?

8 A. He worked for the political directorate. I cannot tell you what

9 powers he had.

10 Q. What about Fehmi Agani, do you know about what role he played in

11 1988/1989 [sic], before he died?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Do you know whether or not he had a great deal of influence with

14 the KLA or control over the KLA?

15 A. As far as I know, during the time I was serving, no.

16 Q. Ibrahim Rugova, you certainly know who that is. Did he have a lot

17 of influence and control over the KLA?

18 A. As far as I know, no. Maybe the political directorate is better

19 positioned to tell you, but I don't know.

20 Q. Did you ever encounter a person by the name of Ratomir Tanic?

21 A. I, no.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, page 13, line 17 should say "1998"

23 and "1999," not "1988" and "1989."

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

25 MR. ACKERMAN:

1 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that Ibrahim Rugova and Fehmi

2 Agani were influential in Kosovo and able to control radical elements in

3 the political landscape?

4 A. As I said earlier, I never dealt with political affairs and I

5 can't tell you whether he had an influence on political issues.

6 Q. To your knowledge, though, those persons were not influential in

7 that regard, as far as you know? You have no information that they were?

8 A. No, I have not.

9 Q. I hope I don't have to go through putting a document on the

10 screen, but I will if I have to. In the bottom left part of most of the

11 documents which you brought with you, there are some capital letters. On

12 some of the documents you'll see SV/AM, some you'll see SS/SS. Do you

13 have any idea what those mean?

14 A. It's the persons who has printed these documents or the persons

15 who typed these documents.

16 Q. All right. In your testimony, during direct examination, at page

17 5941, lines 11 through 13, you gave us this information: "In September of

18 1998 I left Kosovo and went to Albania on a duty trip assigned by the

19 staff and I stayed there until November, when I went back to Kosovo."

20 What kind of a duty trip was it that took you to Albania for two

21 months?

22 A. At that time when I went to Albania in September, I had the duty

23 of -- of re-organising the formations of the KLA, because after the summer

24 offensive, many of the units were broken up and many people left. So I

25 had to recruit experienced cadres to join the KLA.

1 Q. So you were recruiting and organising and training in Albania?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And the people you were recruiting and training and organising

4 were not necessarily persons from Kosovo but persons from Albania and

5 other parts of the world?

6 A. They were Albanians from Kosova. The higher officers were former

7 JNA officers.

8 Q. Well, there were Albanians from Albania and from the United States

9 and from Switzerland, Germany, elsewhere that were also part of the KLA,

10 weren't there?

11 A. I said even earlier that Albanians came from several countries of

12 Europe where they used to live.

13 Q. And you had Albanians from Albania as part of the KLA, didn't you?

14 A. There were some, but not many.

15 Q. What was the Atlantic Brigade?

16 A. The Atlantic Brigade, at that time when I left, September,

17 October, November, wasn't in existence. It started its operation in 1999,

18 and it was made up of Albanians who lived in the United States, Australia,

19 and other countries.

20 Q. Yes. Now, this -- this recruiting and training and so forth that

21 you were doing in Albania, this certainly was with the approval and

22 assistance of the Albanian government, wasn't it?

23 A. When we talk about this Atlantic Brigade and other brigades, at

24 that time we used some places which we were allowed to use. This was for

25 training.

1 Q. And you were getting assistance from the Government of Albania and

2 the people of Albania also, weren't you? Weapons were being supplied by

3 Albania?

4 A. What period are you talking about?

5 Q. Well, you were there between September and November, that period,

6 when you were there and could observe it personally.

7 A. We didn't have any assistance from the Albanian government during

8 that period in regard to what you me about.

9 Q. What period did you have that assistance?

10 A. That assistance -- the assistance was after the bombing started.

11 Q. Okay. The KLA soldiers, there were women who were part of the

12 KLA, weren't there?

13 A. Yes, there were.

14 Q. And they were similarly armed and wore similar uniforms to the

15 men, did they not?

16 A. Yes. Most of them had uniforms, but most of them worked in

17 logistics.

18 Q. All right. I want to go to some testimony you gave during direct

19 again. Page 5959, lines 12 through 17, Mr. Marcussen asked you this: "I

20 would like to now move into sort of more practical structure of the KLA

21 and moving down to the bottom of the organisation, so to speak. How many

22 soldiers did the KLA have during the time you were Chief of Staff?"

23 And you answered: "During the time I was Chief of Staff until

24 March 1999, the KLA had approximately 17.000 to 18.000 soldiers in the

25 territory of Kosova."

1 Now, after March of 1999, did that number increase even more?

2 A. I don't know. I have no information about that, but to my

3 knowledge the number increased.

4 Q. Now, these 17 to 18.000 soldiers that you have knowledge about,

5 just some practical questions. Were there military posts or barracks

6 where these soldiers were housed and fed?

7 A. In general, we didn't have barracks everywhere.

8 Q. Was that your entire answer?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it seemed to me like -- he's speaking

11 so softly, I have trouble knowing whether he's talking or not. It seems

12 to me like he gave a very long answer and we get a very short translation.

13 Maybe I missed it.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that we have problems

15 following him, too. He speaks very low.

16 MR. ACKERMAN:

17 Q. Sir, can you speak more loudly so the interpreters can hear you.

18 And I'm going to ask you the question again just to make sure we

19 get the answer.

20 Were there military posts or barracks where these 17 or 18.000

21 soldiers were housed and fed?

22 A. For a large number, yes; for the remainder, no. I mean here the

23 logistics, the political staff.

24 Q. Where did these soldiers sleep? Where did they spend the nights

25 if they weren't in barracks?

1 A. In general, they were stationed in schools, in facilities,

2 collective facilities, in houses, depending on the situation and the

3 region.

4 Q. Well, I know that Ramush Haradinaj, for instance, had his

5 headquarters in his family compound. Were there a lot of the compounds

6 that soldiers were quartered in where they would spend the nights at

7 least?

8 A. I said "depending on the situation," the territories, the

9 circumstances, there were and there were not.

10 Q. And I take it that the -- these family compounds were -- were

11 somewhat like fortifications in some respect and especially the kullas

12 that could serve as defensive points and firing points and so forth.

13 That's true, isn't it?

14 A. When I spoke about the stationing of the units, I meant the places

15 where they rested and were fed, the fortifications.

16 Q. Okay. But they also fought from some of these compounds with the

17 kullas and so forth, didn't they?

18 A. As far as I know, no. The fortification points were far from

19 these places.

20 Q. These -- you described the organisation of the KLA that was

21 squads, platoons, companies, and brigades. Did the squads always remain

22 together?

23 A. The squads, yes, depending on the terrain and the circumstances.

24 The platoons were always near each other.

25 [Defence counsel confer]

1 MR. ACKERMAN:

2 Q. I'd like to show you a -- we're talking about these family

3 compounds. I'd like to show you a photograph, and we can put it on the

4 ELMO so everybody can see it, if the usher will come get it.

5 MR. MARCUSSEN: If I may ask, Mr. Ackerman. Is that one of the

6 documents that we have been notified about that's coming on?

7 MR. ACKERMAN: No, it's not because it just came up as a result of

8 what the witness said about the compounds. I thought it'd be helpful for

9 the Judges to see what one of these family compounds looks like in terms

10 of --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen, what -- do you oppose this?

12 MR. MARCUSSEN: Well, I mean, obviously the question was prepared

13 that the questioning was going in the direction of the compounds and it

14 wasn't coming up. It's again the Trial Chamber's order that we should be

15 notified about these things.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, do you oppose it?

17 MR. MARCUSSEN: Yes, I oppose it.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.

19 We really should have some regulation here, Mr. Ackerman. Mr.

20 Marcussen is objecting to this because there is an order about how we

21 should deal with exhibits. What do you have to say?

22 No, Mr. Ackerman, I want to hear from --

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, I have never seen the document

24 until two minutes ago -- the picture until two minutes ago, when it was

25 handed to me, because I was talking about these compounds, and it was

1 handed to me as a representative picture of what these compounds looked

2 like. And I thought it might be helpful to Your Honours to see a picture

3 of what these compounds looked like. If I had known about it as early as

4 lunchtime, I certainly would have notified the Prosecutor that I intended

5 to use it. And I don't think it's a sneak-up on them in any way.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.

7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I suppose it is one of

8 the photographs I received directly. It may have been some three hours

9 ago. It was disclosed by the UK government. I believe Mr. Ackerman used

10 one of those completely new exhibits; therefore, there was no fault on his

11 part. He wasn't trying to keep anything from the other party.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I received the documents.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. I don't see that this is going to cause

15 any prejudice to the Prosecution, so we'll allow it to be exhibited.

16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Now, if it's possible just to zoom in a little bit

18 to get it kind of -- okay. That's good enough.

19 Q. Now, sir, you see the photograph there that's in front of you I

20 guess.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I am told that that's a family compound located where, in Gornje

23 Prekaze. It says it right on the screen. That's the Adem Jashari family

24 compound that's, you know, quite notorious. It's a significantly high

25 wall around that place, isn't it?

1 A. Yes, I can see the group of houses. This is a traditional form of

2 houses. It's a kind of household, housing several families living

3 together in the same compound.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you familiar with this particular one, Mr.

5 Zyrapi?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not familiar with this

7 particular one because I was not in that territory, neither during the war

8 or before the war. And I cannot tell you who it belongs to.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Give us a number, please.

10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC --

11 MR. ACKERMAN: We can give it an IC number, Your Honour, yes.

12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC108, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: And can we get it scanned or something so it goes

15 into the system where it happened and then returned? Okay. Thank you.

16 Q. Now, what I was asking you about was this organisation. The

17 lowest part of the organisation you talked about the other day were

18 squads, and I'm just wondering if these squads remained together all the

19 time.

20 A. Yes. The squads were together in the same place.

21 Q. Now, I know that there were times when people went on leave and

22 things of that nature, so I'm -- let's exempt that from my questions, if

23 you will. The squads were part of platoons. Did the platoons remain

24 together at all times?

25 A. I'm talking about the time I served. The squads -- the platoons

1 were together, depending on the territories, of course.

2 Q. Well, I'm talking about the time you served, too. I think you

3 probably can't help us during the time you cannot. So I'll understand

4 that that's what you're talking about.

5 Now, I assume when you get up to the company and brigade level,

6 then you start seeing some dispersement of these units. Is that true?

7 A. Depending on the configuration of the terrain. As I said, most of

8 them were stationed in the territories included in their zone of

9 responsibility.

10 Q. Okay. I want to ask you some questions now about your statement.

11 At the beginning of your statement you talked about your early days with

12 the KLA, that those days you spent in Tirana. Why in Tirana and not in

13 Kosovo?

14 A. As I've stated in my statement, I was asked by Xhemalj Fetahu to

15 go to Tirana. When I went to Tirana, my intention was to continue to

16 Kosovo, but Xhemalj asked me to stay there for a while, to offer them my

17 assistance in training the soldiers that were coming to join the KLA from

18 different countries in Europe. And I was also waiting there for the

19 confirmation from the General Staff regarding my joining the KLA.

20 Q. All right. What was the FARK, the F-A-R-K?

21 A. FARK were the armed forces of the Republic of Kosova.

22 Q. And it's true, isn't it, that there was tension between the FARK

23 and the KLA?

24 A. Yes, at that time.

25 Q. Exhibit P2450 - I don't know that we need to look at it - it is

1 that document where it showed that a KLA soldier by the name of Behim

2 Shala was issued one automatic rifle, three grenades, and 330 rounds of

3 ammunition upon his taking the oath and becoming a soldier in the KLA.

4 Now, this would have simply been an initial allotment of grenades and

5 ammunition, wouldn't it?

6 A. I don't remember exactly, but this is the procedure followed when

7 a soldier joins, to issue him a weapon and ammunition that could be given

8 to him, that was at our disposal to give to him.

9 Q. And then when there was fighting and that ammunition and those

10 grenades were used, there would be additional ammunition and grenades

11 issued I take it, so that that soldier could fight another day?

12 A. Yes, and additional ammunition.

13 Q. And I assume that this initial allotment that's set out in that

14 document changed over time, so sometimes there may have been less

15 available and sometimes more?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Now, I would like to look at P2453, please. And

18 I'd like to look at the -- the second page I think.

19 Q. These are the minutes of that -- of that work meeting in Gllogjan

20 and Glodjane that was talked about earlier.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Could we look at the bottom of that page just for a

22 moment. A little further down, please. Okay. The actual part of it I'm

23 looking for is Smajl says at the bottom -- and with me it's page 5 which

24 for some reason is the second page of the document in English. The

25 speaker is Smajl, S-m-a-j-l, and he says: "To assist one another in the

1 future, we have to supply weapons to the whole population from the age of

2 16."

3 It's right there on the screen. I can see it. I can read enough

4 Albanian to recognise the number 16 there. Do you see that?

5 A. Yes, I can see that.

6 Q. Was that carried out? Did you actually go into the villages and

7 arm the -- arm the whole population from age 16 up?

8 A. To my knowledge, no.

9 Q. I take it there was an effort made to do that?

10 A. During my time, the efforts were to fill the units, but what is

11 written here, to my knowledge, was not carried out.

12 Q. Now, this person, Smajl, that was actually Ramush Haradinaj,

13 wasn't it?

14 A. Yes, it's a pseudonym of Ramush Haradinaj.

15 Q. And he wound up being the commander of one of the operative zones,

16 right?

17 A. Yes, in these minutes, yes.

18 Q. And he remained the commander in that operative zone, didn't he?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And as the commander, if he had then ordered that weapons be

21 supplied to the whole population from age 16 up, I take it that order

22 would have been followed as much as possible, wouldn't it?

23 A. I don't know if it was carried out or not.

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the last part of the

25 answer.

1 MR. ACKERMAN:

2 Q. Your still not speaking loud enough for the interpreters to hear

3 you. Is there any way we can get you to speak louder and then repeat that

4 answer so we can get it all?

5 A. I don't know to what extent it was carried out, but it couldn't

6 have been fully carried out because it was impossible to issue weapons to

7 everybody who was of military age and able to join the KLA units.

8 Q. Okay. I want to go to some other issues now.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Ackerman, we're at a fairly wide range in

10 cross-examination. Now, there are other interests to be considered. I

11 don't know to what extent they wish to cross-examine, but can we focus on

12 what really matters to you now?

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I have prepared a great deal and I'm

14 trying -- there is actually some of it I do want to skip and so I'm trying

15 to figure out what to continue with and what not to. So I am making an

16 effort in that regard.

17 Q. Let me go to, at least for the moment, to some of the documents

18 that you supplied to the OTP. And the first one I'll have brought up is

19 Exhibit 4D40, please. All right. That document is now on the screen in

20 front of you, and I take it you recognise that as one of the documents you

21 got from the archives and supplied to the OTP?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And this is an order dated 10 January 1999 directed to the brigade

24 commanders in the Pastrik zone of operation; correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Signed by Ekrem Rexha, the commander of that zone?

2 A. No, it is signed by the deputy commander as far as I can see.

3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... looks like it is, but issued

4 under Ekrem Rexha's name at least?

5 A. Yes, the name is the name of the commander Ekrem Rexha, but the

6 signature is the signature of his deputy.

7 Q. And if he look at the initial paragraph then up at the top again,

8 it says it was issued pursuant to order number 94/111 of 6 January 1999.

9 Do you have any idea what that order was?

10 A. This is an order sent to zone commander to secure the use of

11 material goods and to ensure facilities where KLA units can be based.

12 Q. So -- so this order that we're looking at was basically the order

13 that came from the General Staff to the zone commanders, passed on along

14 to the brigades. Is that a fair way to analyse it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And basically what this order does is -- is order and authorise

17 the confiscation of vehicles from the population for use by the army,

18 doesn't it, and specifically or preferably, Nivas and Suzukis and Land

19 Rovers; correct?

20 A. This order specifies terrain vehicles that can be used for the

21 needs of the KLA.

22 Q. But it authorises the confiscation of these vehicles from the

23 population, doesn't it?

24 A. It authorises for these all-terrain vehicles to be taken pursuant

25 to the procedures that I have mentioned earlier.

1 Q. And it doesn't restrict that to vehicles that are owned by Kosovar

2 Albanians, but they could be taken from Serbs or taken from Roma or

3 anybody else that just happened to be there with a Niva or a Suzuki or a

4 Land Rover; correct?

5 A. This order pertains to the zones that were under the KLA control.

6 Q. Well, it would make sense that they could only seize vehicles in a

7 zone under their control, but it doesn't restrict it to Albanian-owned

8 vehicles. It could be Serb-owned vehicles or Roma-owned vehicles or

9 American-owned vehicles or whatever you could get your hands on, right?

10 A. The meaning of this order was to take these vehicles from the

11 Albanians who possess these kinds of all-terrain vehicles that could be

12 used for the needs of the KLA.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zyrapi, is this order confined to vehicles?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not only to vehicles, also to

15 facilities needed for the KLA units, for the stationing of KLA units.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: And that would be authority to take over the homes

17 of individuals for accommodation?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not homes, but facilities that are

19 for that particular moment unpopulated and that can be used for the KLA

20 needs. As I mentioned earlier, schools or collective facilities.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

22 MR. ACKERMAN:

23 Q. Well, to be fair, it doesn't say anything about unpopulated or

24 unused vehicles or anything of that nature, does it?

25 A. I did not say "unused vehicles" or "unused facilities."

1 Facilities that can be used. For example, buildings of different

2 corporations that were no longer working.

3 Q. Well, you did talk about --

4 A. Houses that were used for schooling in the past.

5 Q. You talked about unpopulated facilities, but it's not restricted

6 to that, is it?

7 A. No, it was not restricted to that.

8 Q. Now, this -- this order that came from the General Staff down

9 through the chain of command and out to the brigades and so forth, this

10 order of course was not authorised by any kind of civil authority properly

11 constituted, was it?

12 A. No, not at that time, only by the General Staff.

13 Q. Yeah, it was just, in effect, organised theft by members of an

14 illegal insurgency, wasn't it?

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Argumentative, I think, Mr. Ackerman. Let's ask

16 questions that we expect sensible answers to.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Could we look at 5891, please. Oh, I'm sorry,

18 4D39.

19 Q. Now, this is an order of 10 January of 1999 signed on behalf of

20 Ekrem Rexha again. And what this does is pass along an order from the

21 General Staff that brigade commanders have to register the numbers of

22 their satellite telephones or their phones are going to be blocked;

23 correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, I understood that satellite telephones are really pretty

1 exotic and expensive items. It seems that the KLA had many of these if

2 each of the brigade commanders had one. There must have been a lot of

3 them, huh?

4 A. Not all the brigades, part of them.

5 Q. Do you know where these satellite phones came from? Do you know

6 who supplied those to the KLA?

7 A. No, I don't know that. The logistics directorate, it was its duty

8 to supply these phones.

9 Q. Did you ever hear of an American Albanian by the name of Florim

10 Krasniqi?

11 A. Yes, I've heard of him.

12 Q. Did you ever speak to him on your satellite phone?

13 A. No, not during the war.

14 Q. After the war?

15 A. After the war I saw him and I met him personally.

16 Q. Okay. He was a pretty significant contributor to the KLA, wasn't

17 he, money-wise, material-wise, weapon-wise?

18 A. As many other individuals --

19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

20 A. This was a matter of the logistics directorate, as I said.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Let's look at 4D38, please.

22 And, Your Honour, while we're waiting for it to come up, I think I

23 should explain to the Trial Chamber that these are some of the documents

24 that -- that the Prosecution chose not to use that were furnished to us

25 and we submitted to CLSS. And CLSS should be commended for getting these

1 translated with such speed, and I certainly want to express my

2 appreciation for that. It's helped us quite a bit.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

4 MR. ACKERMAN:

5 Q. This document issued 18 January 1999, I think it's actually signed

6 by Mr. Rexha. And this talks about raising military readiness to its

7 highest level. Now, this was during the time of the cease-fire, was it

8 not?

9 A. Yes, this is an order that was issued during that time.

10 Q. And it provides that military readiness should be raised to the

11 highest level, that all soldiers outside the unit are to report to their

12 unit, the ZOP it's called here. A platoon of military police and a

13 liaison squad are to be kept in full military readiness, combat readiness;

14 correct?

15 A. Not only the platoon, but all units in general, the military,

16 police unit, the intervention unit, all units in general.

17 Q. And I'm curious about paragraph number 4 there. "All movements of

18 persons unknown and uninvited in the direction of the command buildings

19 are strictly forbidden."

20 That was basically the general public was not permitted to

21 approach your command buildings; is that what that's saying?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And paragraph 5 says that nobody can go on leave during this

24 period of high alert state.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Do you have any idea what was going on in the Pastrik Operational

2 Zone on 18 January 1999 during a cease-fire to justify this kind of

3 high-level readiness?

4 A. To my recollection, at that time there wasn't an increased

5 movement in Pashtrik zone, rather in Nerodime zone.

6 Q. Okay. Now, during your testimony on direct, you were asked about

7 the military equipment, basically the weaponry, that was available to the

8 KLA. And I don't recall that you mentioned 120-millimetre

9 rocket-launchers during that, did you?

10 A. Yes, I did mention it.

11 Q. Those were the mortars basically that you were talking about, or

12 were those the Katyusha?

13 A. No, the mortars.

14 Q. Okay. So those can be referred to as rocket-launchers?

15 A. No, 120-millimetre mortars, as it is mentioned.

16 Q. Well, I'm wondering about 120-millimetre rocket-launchers. Do you

17 know what those are?

18 A. I don't know about 120-millimetre rocket-launchers, but I do know

19 about 120-millimetre mortars.

20 Q. So to your knowledge there was no such thing as 120-millimetre

21 rocket-launchers available to the KLA?

22 A. That's correct. There weren't any at that time.

23 Q. All right. And the other one I want to ask you about is, I don't

24 think you mentioned any anti-aircraft weapons, did you?

25 A. No.

1 Q. And I guess there weren't any anti-aircraft weapons available to

2 the KLA either?

3 A. No. Except for two M-Strelas which were not in working order.

4 Q. I'd like you to look at another document, 4D37. Now, this is a

5 document dated 3 February of 1999 signed by a commander named Sulejman

6 Selimi. And he's wanting an artillery officer named Enver Rrustemin to

7 train users of 120-millimetre rocket-launchers and to have officer Kurtish

8 Fane to train people to utilise the Strela 2 anti-aircraft equipment.

9 Now, that wouldn't make any sense if there weren't any 120-millimetre

10 rocket-launchers or if the Strela 2 anti-aircraft equipment wasn't

11 functioning, would it?

12 A. The order is very clear. It's not signed by Sylejman Selimi, but

13 by another officer. The word "minahedhsa," it refers to mortars, not to

14 rocket-launchers. And as for the Strela-2 M, there were two pieces of

15 this kind of weaponry but they were not in working order.

16 Q. Well, I know you've said that, but why would he want somebody to

17 train somebody how to use them if they didn't work. It doesn't make any

18 sense, does it?

19 A. Well, regardless of whether these weapons were available or not to

20 us, the training had to take place of all kinds of collective weapons.

21 Q. I'd like you to read after the name Enver Rrustemin, I'd like you

22 to just read the language right after that starting with the word that

23 looks like per, p-e-r. Just read that down to the next name because I'd

24 like to hear the translation.

25 A. "The training of those who will serve there for mine launchers 120

1 millimetres and the officer Kurtish Fane, to be trained to use the

2 anti-aircraft M Stella-2, the sending of these officers by you is

3 necessary."

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, we have another translation issue I

5 guess.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we didn't get the answer to the question you

7 are asking.

8 Please read that again, Mr. Zyrapi.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 "For the training of people who will use mine launchers

11 120-millimetres and the officer Kurtish Fane, to use the anti-aircraft

12 Strela-2. Dispatch of these officers by you is necessary, is urgent."

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think -- I've heard it twice now. I

14 think what is being interpreted is the word mine, m-i-n-e, launchers.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: But it's not showing up in the transcript. It is

17 now, of course, since I've said it.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: That would sound like a mortar rather than a

19 rocket-launcher.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, that's exactly what it is. That's another

21 translation issue with regard to this document. Because it does say --

22 the English translation does say rocket-launchers.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: And rocket-launchers are frequently referred to in

24 evidence and perhaps we should be cautious about the language when such

25 expressions are used.

1 Can I ask you where we are now because we're about to have a

2 break?

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I'm going to suggest we take a break now and

4 give me a chance to go over my notes and I may or may not have any

5 additional questions.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Marcussen.

7 MR. MARCUSSEN: Just one thing I think I should address before the

8 break, but it doesn't have to be at this very moment.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, what is it you wish to address?

10 MR. MARCUSSEN: In light of the witness's evidence about his first

11 interview being recorded, we have checked our evidence and regrettably

12 there exists a transcript of that conversation which has not been

13 disclosed. I have it. It's Albanian and translated into English. I

14 haven't had the time to review it and compare it to the statement. But I

15 think obviously this is something we'll immediately disclose to the

16 Defence, and we'll have to figure out how to do that, if it gives rise to

17 further cross-examination.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, do you have questions?

19 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I have quite a few

20 questions, but I will also try to reduce them as much as possible and to

21 use all the time you allot to me as best I can.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic?

23 MR. LUKIC: Same situation as with Mr. Cepic, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: As you know, we're trying not to get into the

25 territory of very precise allocations of time. We've given guidance. But

1 there is an issue of fairness arises where the Defence cross-examination

2 is largely the development of a positive case rather than a challenge to

3 the Prosecution case, and we have to look at how to you deal with that.

4 Because when we get to the Defence case, it's actually quite difficult to

5 make the same allowances. And it may be that one way of doing this is to

6 bear in mind the situation where a lot of the cross is the positive

7 presentation of a Defence case. And to actually allocate that time in due

8 course against the Defence case when it comes to be presented.

9 Now, I'm not making -- I'm thinking aloud at the moment because

10 this is the first time we've encountered this particular difficulty, and I

11 don't think at this stage, in any event, we could make such a decision.

12 We would have to make such a decision in the proper context, having regard

13 to the fairness to the parties. But it may be that that is the way to do

14 it. And if you see that as a way forward, then it actually relieves us of

15 having to determine cut-off points for cross-examination where you

16 genuinely believe this is necessary cross-examination in the interests of

17 the presentation of your case, but really have to accept that at some

18 stage you'll have to have it counted against you rather than simply have

19 an open-ended cheque.

20 It's one of the problems of allocating time that we can do it

21 specifically for the party who's presenting the case, but we can't really

22 do it terribly precisely for the cross-examining party.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I -- that is a -- that's an excellent

24 observation I think, and that's -- that's exactly what's going on and it's

25 motived a great deal by -- you know, I know you have some strong feelings

1 about this, but it's motived a great deal by the proposition that it's

2 extraordinarily difficult for us to interview witnesses in Kosovo, to find

3 witnesses in Kosovo, and to bring witnesses here from Kosovo. So when we

4 get a witness who we can kind of use as a witness to present our case,

5 we'd be remiss in not using. Because I don't think we could ever get a

6 high officer of the KLA to come here to testify for the Defence. I don't

7 think that could ever happen.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: But you understand the need that the Trial Chamber

9 has to make sure that both sides are treated fairly in this, and that at

10 the end of this trial, both sides have had an equal opportunity to present

11 their respective cases.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: I do, and I think your suggestion makes sense

13 because if I could call a witness to get the evidence that I'm wanting to

14 get from this witness, I'd be using the time in my Defence case. So when

15 I'm using it now it probably makes sense.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: I imagine it's better to cross-examine than to

17 bring your own witness in the first place. So you've got an additional

18 advantage there. But having made these remarks, it's also necessary to

19 retain an overall control over the total time used for the presentation of

20 the Prosecution case. So this is not an invitation to you to take an

21 open-ended approach to every witness from whom you might see some benefit

22 for the Defence, the positive presentation of the Defence case. It's

23 going to be a very delicate balancing exercise. I simply ask you to have

24 this in mind so when we do eventually have to made hard decisions, that

25 you've had an adequate opportunity to consider the options.

1 Mr. Zyrapi, we have our break now. The usher will again show you

2 where to wait and we'll resume at 4.15.

3 [The witness stands down]

4 --- Recess taken at 3.53 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 4.15 p.m.

6 [The witness takes the stand]

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.

8 MR. ACKERMAN:

9 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, I'm going to ask you some questions about some

10 incidents that I understand occurred in Kosovo and ask you if you're

11 familiar at all with the incidents and can give us any further information

12 than what I have about them. If you're not familiar with the incident,

13 you can just say you know nothing about it and we can move to the next

14 question, and thereby save some time. Okay?

15 Did you hear me?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. All right. Thank you. I have some information that I'm told came

20 from the Government of the United States, and it's reported that on the

21 21st of November, 1998, the KLA held two kidnapped Kosovo Albanians and

22 one Serb who were accused of spying on the KLA. Two Serb policemen were

23 killed in Prilep, south of Decani on the 20th of November. And the KLA

24 was reportedly preparing fighting positions, building bunkers, and

25 establishing their own check-points to harass Serbs.

1 Are you familiar with any of that at all?

2 A. I have no information about that.

3 Q. All right. This is a daily report on the 14th of November. "The

4 KLA responded aggressively to a scheduled police patrol on the

5 Malisevo-Blace road. The police showed great restraint when armed and

6 uniformed KLA appeared on the patrol road." Are you familiar with that at

7 all?

8 A. No, I am not.

9 Q. The report goes on to say that, "The KLA had become increasingly

10 active in the Malisevo area and KDOM receives reports of KLA retribution

11 killings of Albanians suspected of collaboration with the Serbs. The

12 police claim that the KLA killed an ethnic Albanian police officer and

13 abducted his son in Prekoluka in Decani municipality."

14 Do you think anything about that?

15 A. No, I don't.

16 Q. Then November --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.

18 MR. MARCUSSEN: For this -- the incident that was just talked

19 about, we don't have a date. I don't know if we should maybe have a date,

20 if there is one, for this particular last incident.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: It says it's the daily report for the 14th of

22 November, and it's just a continuation of the previous question.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: That's correct, Your Honour.

24 MR. MARCUSSEN: Sorry. My misunderstanding.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

1 MR. ACKERMAN:

2 Q. 20th of November, 1998, "The KLA ambushed a commercial vehicle

3 used by the police in Prilep south of Decani. Two policemen killed, three

4 wounded. A KLA commander in the area noted that the KLA central command

5 had ordered KLA soldiers to observe the cease-fire; however, the commander

6 said that he could not control all of his patrols all of the time."

7 Are you familiar with that at all?

8 A. No.

9 Q. It --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: By the 20th of November, were you the Chief of

11 Staff?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not at that time. I was not yet

13 appointed.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that's the problem, Mr. Ackerman, with

15 these questions.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: It may be, Your Honour, but there are some

17 questions that arise out of them in any event I think.

18 Q. This report goes on to say this: "KLA patrols in the area often

19 encounter Serbian patrols, and under KLA rules of engagement, are allowed

20 to fire."

21 Now, were those the rules of engagement that were in effect when

22 you were there with the KLA?

23 A. I don't know what it was like for that period. I already pointed

24 out yesterday.

25 Q. No. I'm asking you what the rules of engagement were like when

1 you were active with the KLA in Kosovo. Did the rules of engagement

2 permit KLA patrols to open fire on Serbian patrols on sight? When they'd

3 see them, they could open fire on them. Was that rules of engagement in

4 effect when you were there?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you know when that changed?

7 A. After I took over my duty.

8 Q. Now, this commander who said that he couldn't control all of his

9 patrols all the time, I take it that that's a problem that all commanders

10 have to deal with; correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. This is some information that apparently comes from the United

13 Kingdom, and it tells us that on the 16th of March in 1999, there was

14 little evidence of a cease-fire in Kosovo. Clashes continued on 15 March

15 to the west of Vucitrn. The VJ said that nine soldiers were wounded in an

16 attack by the UCK in Podujevo between Decani and Djakovica. Are you

17 familiar with this attack, the 15th of March on the VJ vehicles?

18 A. I don't remember.

19 Q. Could you have ordered that attack?

20 A. No.

21 Q. This report continues: "The UCK attacked VJ vehicles in several

22 places along the road between Pristina and Podujevo on 14 and 15 March."

23 Are you familiar with this attack and did you order this attack?

24 A. This attack was not ordered by me.

25 Q. The report goes on to talk about an incident in October of 1998

1 when five VJ soldiers were killed by a KLA ambush on 30 September,

2 actually. The KLA soldiers were positioned on both sides of the border

3 and subsequently all of them retreated into Albania.

4 Now, I suspect you don't know anything about this either, but was

5 this a common tactic by the KLA to go back and forth across that border.

6 They would cross over and attack the VJ, and then cross back into Albania

7 where they were safe. Did that go on with some frequency?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And then the final sentence of that particular report

10 says: "There was no fighting," and this -- we're talking about

11 September/October of 1998. "There was no fighting except in response to

12 KLA attacks."

13 Do you agree with that, the information we have from the United

14 Kingdom?

15 A. I don't know about that period. Maybe it is as it says here.

16 Q. All right. Thank you. I want you to look at a document. It's

17 Exhibit 4D32. Now, this appears to be a letter addressed to Wesley Clark,

18 the commander of the NATO forces. And I'd like you to look first at the

19 very last page, at the bottom of the very last page of that document,

20 please. There.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Could you kind of zero in on the seal and the

22 signature.

23 Q. Is that seal familiar to you?

24 A. Yes, the seal is familiar, but the signature is not.

25 Q. Have you seen this document before?

1 A. No, I haven't.

2 Q. All right. Now, in this document, it's purported to be a letter

3 from the KLA General Staff apparently to General Clark. And one of the

4 things it talks about on the 18th of April, 1999, is that, in the third

5 paragraph: "NATO aviation masters completely the air."

6 Do you know that to be true, that there was total air superiority

7 by NATO or air command by NATO by April of 1992 -- of 1999?

8 A. I don't know that.

9 Q. And you'll notice on basically the last page of that document

10 there's a paragraph where it speaks of that again. "We think the time has

11 come to be rushed with utmost urgency in the first variant option. We

12 know that your aviation acted with the maximum do not deal with the bees,

13 but with their nest, but to Serbia except for their aviation whose nest

14 you have completely destroyed, the other nests," it says what they

15 are, "are dispersed," tanks and things of that nature.

16 So this indicates that Serb aviation was completely destroyed by

17 this time; correct?

18 A. I don't know. It's not me who has written this document.

19 Q. Well, forget about the document. You were a commander in the

20 field at the time.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: We can read it as easily as he can, Mr. Ackerman.

22 MR. ACKERMAN:

23 Q. Isn't it the case that NATO had basically taken out all of the

24 possibility for Serbian aviation to function by April of 1999?

25 A. I don't know that because it was a time when I was handing over my

1 duty.

2 Q. Well, you weren't being attacked by any Serbian aviation, were

3 you?

4 A. No, I have no information about that. During the time I was here,

5 I have no information about that.

6 Q. Tell me what kind of contacts the KLA had with the US military and

7 in what ways was the US -- United States military assisting the KLA.

8 A. I already explained to you that during my duty I had no contacts

9 whatsoever with other armies.

10 Q. Did you hear about any contacts between members of the KLA and

11 members of the United States military and any assistance coming from the

12 United States military to KLA?

13 A. No.

14 Q. I'd like you to look at a document, Exhibit 4D33, just to see if

15 you have any explanation for what appears in it. This is a document from

16 the Austrian embassy in Belgrade, and it is a report apparently on a

17 meeting that Jan Kickert, and I think maybe someone else, had with

18 representatives from the United States and the Russian Federation.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: And if we go down to one, two, three, four, the

20 fourth bullet point.

21 Q. "On the other hand, by their own admission, there have been long

22 contacts with UCK representatives at US military attache level."

23 Do you see that?

24 A. I am not familiar with this.

25 Q. Are you familiar with any contact between Holbrooke and the UCK,

1 like in Junik?

2 A. Yes, in Junik I know that Mr. Holbrooke was there in 1998.

3 Q. And had his picture taken with some KLA fighters? I assume you've

4 seen that picture.

5 A. Yes, I have seen that picture. It was taken in Junik village.

6 Q. All right. Do you know of a -- of a KLA commander by the name of

7 Ylli, Y-l-l-i?

8 A. No, the name is not familiar.

9 Q. Okay. Do you know who Asllan Bushati is?

10 A. No.

11 Q. How about a KLA commander with the nickname Remi, R-e-m-i, do you

12 know him? He's supposed to be KLA commander for the operational subzone

13 of Llap, L-l-a-p?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And do you agree that the position of the KLA was what he

16 represents here: "There cannot be any agreement between the UCK and the

17 Serbian forces, because in the final analysis, there is nothing for us to

18 agree on within the borders of Kosovo. We can only agree on their full

19 withdrawal from the Republic of Kosovo." True?

20 A. I don't remember this, but probably it is like this.

21 Q. And he went on to say that: "The UCK has explicitly stated

22 several times that it does not recognise the parliament and self-styled

23 government of Kosovo and therefore conduct negotiations on or around

24 Kosovo if the UCK is not involved in these talks."

25 That was the position of the KLA, was it not?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. All right. Do you know who Shukri Buja is?

3 A. Yes, yes, I do.

4 Q. He was a KLA commander, was he not?

5 A. Yes. He was the commander of the operational zone of Nerodime.

6 Q. Do you know about an occasion where he raped an Albanian woman,

7 who was detained in a prison, that he had something to do with?

8 A. I have no information about that.

9 Q. Do you have any information about him beating a gypsy prisoner to

10 death with a wooden stick at this place?

11 A. I have no knowledge about that.

12 Q. Do you have knowledge about --

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman, the law of diminishing returns is now

14 in play. These questions are clearly ones this witness has no personal

15 knowledge of.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, so far.

17 Q. Do you know about a KLA prison that was located at Lapusnik in

18 Glogovac municipality?

19 A. No.

20 Q. All right. This question comes from Exhibit 4D34?

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Which I'll ask to be put on the monitor now. And

22 unfortunately, I only have it in English.

23 Q. And this is a report from OSCE-Kosovo Verification Mission of 26

24 February through 4 March 1999. And it speaks about the Djeneral Jankovic

25 area. It says: "It would appear that over 100 KLA members crossed the

1 border and combined with the sub-militia, while encouraging the locals to

2 leave. The incentive to move into this region is unclear, although a

3 number of possibilities exist. By encouraging the movements of IDPs,"

4 internally displaced persons, "the international media was able to claim a

5 Serb offensive was underway. Indeed, the EuroNews reported that a Serb

6 offensive took place, which combined with pictures of Serb vehicles on the

7 move and innocent villagers looking pathetic, was a coup for the ethnic

8 Albanian cause. The Koha Ditore described the village of Kacanik as being

9 a 'ghost town,' which verifiers noted was untrue and initial reports from

10 the region had somehow suggested a massacre had taken place."

11 Now, this seems to suggest what was going on there. And that

12 Djeneral Jankovic area was some sort of a big propaganda ploy by the KLA

13 to generate sympathy from the outside, and that happened on more than one

14 occasion, didn't it?

15 A. I have no information about the case you are quoting.

16 Q. But I asked you if that kind of activity was a tactic of the KLA,

17 to try to engender foreign sympathy and support and to bring NATO into the

18 war.

19 A. No.

20 Q. The top of the next page under the heading "Elsewhere." It reads

21 that: "The KLA force in Podujevo area managed to carry out an attack in

22 the town itself, effectively taking the fight to the Serbs, as opposed to

23 simply reacting and defending, as had been claimed in the past."

24 Are you familiar with that attack?

25 A. No. No order was given to that effect.

1 MR. ACKERMAN: If we go to the top of the --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, there are two separate issues there. No

3 order was given to that effect is one thing, but the question was: Were

4 you aware of this taking place?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I wasn't.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Did the OSCE not have regular contact with your

7 General Staff?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The OSCE had contacts with the

9 General Staff, with the political directorate that was responsible for

10 maintaining such contacts.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: So your attention was not drawn to breaches of the

12 cease-fire, such as the one that's set out on this document?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To my recollection, no.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's a matter of great concern if the

15 observers weren't drawing to your attention that the cease-fire was being

16 breached. Are you sure that that was the position?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am saying that I had no

18 information about that. Maybe the group that maintained contact with the

19 OSCE had such information.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: If we go to the top of the next page, the first

22 full paragraph says -- speaks about VJ forces within Kosovo and their

23 increased training. It says about the VJ forces that their actions have

24 been somewhat low-key, in light of what can only be described as KLA

25 provocations.

1 Q. Now, you know, don't you, that KLA was doing everything it could

2 to provoke the Serb forces, the VJ, the police, into attacking them so

3 that they could try to get NATO involved in this fight. Now, you know

4 that was happening because that was a tactic of the army that you were a

5 commander of, wasn't it?

6 A. At that time I was Chief of Staff. With respect to these cases,

7 it was not the tactic of the KLA to provoke the Serbian forces in order

8 for the NATO to intervene.

9 Q. Why would the OSCE report this in an official report? Look, for

10 instance, at their assessment over on page 5 near the bottom of the page

11 under the words "Assessment." We'll see if what it says there is

12 this: "In recognising the power of the media, the ethnic Albanians will

13 continue to work on international sympathy for their cause. The plight of

14 the internally displaced persons remains their strongest weapon, and

15 therefore other incidents involving the movement of large numbers of

16 people can be expected. Careful examination of each scenario needs to

17 take place, and one is no longer able to make the assumption that

18 internally displaced people indicate a Serb attack will take place."

19 Now, I can't imagine why OSCE would make a report with that

20 language if -- if what I suggested wasn't going on. Don't you agree?

21 A. I'm not saying that the OSCE report has not given the right

22 assessment. They must have based this assessment on something, but to

23 your question, whether it was the KLA tactics to provoke the Serb forces,

24 my answer is no.

25 Q. Well, let's look then at the last section of this report, which is

1 headed "The Next Week."

2 JUDGE BONOMY: How is that going to help us, Mr. Ackerman? You've

3 got clear answers from the witness. He's conceding that the OSCE has got

4 it right, but as far as he's concerned, it wasn't a specific tactic. Now,

5 are we going to advance our knowledge anymore with this?

6 MR. ACKERMAN: I think so.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, all right.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I know exactly what you're thinking.

9 You're thinking we can read this and it makes no sense for you to read it

10 to us, but this is a public trial and the public doesn't have this

11 document, they can't read it, and I think the public is entitled to know

12 the evidence in this case, too.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: If the public wish any public document in this

14 case, they have access to it.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, it's very difficult for someone sitting in --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: A public trial is not a trial in which every piece

17 of material is scrutinised in open court. A public trial is a trial which

18 takes place in public and is open to public scrutiny. These are two

19 entirely different concepts. It's not -- it's just not feasible to

20 present every last piece of material in any trial of this nature on TV and

21 live TV for everyone to watch as they consume their leisure time in

22 whatever part of the world they live. That's not what a public trial

23 means.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I totally agree with that, Your Honour, and I

25 certainly wasn't suggesting that I should stand here and read every

1 exhibit so the public can hear me read it, but the pertinent parts of some

2 of these documents, I think, absolutely need to be part of the public

3 record in this case. And I know that there are people out there watching

4 us right now.

5 Q. At this -- in this last section, "The Next Week," I just want to

6 draw to your attention some things said by the OSCE: "The international

7 community can comprehend pictures of VJ tanks and easily label them as

8 aggressive Serb activities. The KLA will seek to exploit this and will

9 therefore provoke the Serbs over the coming week."

10 In the final paragraph: "If the KLA continue to ambush the MUP,

11 the FRY security forces will be compelled to respond."

12 So what they're saying here is that KLA [Realtime transcript read

13 in error "OSCE"] is propagandising what's going on and violating the

14 cease-fire to try to provoke the Serbs into some kind of action. Isn't

15 that true and isn't that what was happening?

16 A. I've already stated that the aim of the KLA, while I was the Chief

17 of General Staff, was not to provoke the Serb forces in order to make NATO

18 forces intervene. As I said, I'm not questioning the assessment of the

19 OSCE reports because they have to be based on something.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: I think line 18 there of page 50 must be reference

21 to the KLA rather than the OSCE. And that's certainly how the witness

22 understood the question.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, I think it's true.

24 Q. I think I have just one other matter that I want to go into with

25 you. At least your initial time -- at least your initial time in Kosovo

1 was spent in the area of Haradinaj's command, and I take it you got to

2 know Haradinaj reasonably well?

3 A. For the time I used to know him, I can for some part of it say

4 yes.

5 Q. Are you familiar with the term that was used by he and members of

6 his command, issuing papers for Drenica?

7 A. No, I don't know.

8 Q. Do you know anything about the killings of a couple of people

9 named Uki Reshapi [phoen] and Nezli Alilaj [phoen] by Haradinaj or his

10 assistants who were issued papers for Drenica?

11 A. No, I have no knowledge about this.

12 Q. All right. My last question then is: Are you familiar with a KLA

13 organisation called the Black Eagles?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And this was a KLA unit that wore black uniforms and was led by a

16 person named Idriz Balaj?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And I take it you know that in July or August of 1998 Idriz Balaj

19 was accused of raping an Albanian woman who was accused of collaborating

20 with the Serbs. Are you familiar with that?

21 A. No, I'm not. This is another period of time.

22 Q. And you didn't hear about that when you went to Kosovo?

23 A. No, I didn't.

24 Q. If it's the case that Idriz Balaj basically admitted that and said

25 that he'd been ordered to do it, was he still in that position later,

1 after you arrived there? Was he still the commander of this Black Eagles

2 organisation?

3 A. When I visited there, I was not in the position of the Chief of

4 Staff, and for this particular case, I was not informed.

5 Q. Well, I'm not sure that you answered my question. Was he still

6 the commander of the Black Eagles when you arrived in Kosovo?

7 A. When I went there for the first time to visit Dukagjin area, I

8 know that he was commander of this unit.

9 Q. All right?

10 MR. ACKERMAN: And, Your Honour, just for the record and the

11 good-faith basis for that last series of Haradinaj and Balaj questions,

12 they come from the OTP's indictment of Mr. Haradinaj. And with that,

13 that's all I have. Thank you.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. We shall go briefly into private

15 session to protect the position of an individual in the interests of

16 justice.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: We are in public session, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

20 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I have a question for you, please. You -- you

21 gave a picture of the organisation as it worked, the KLA. Now, it must be

22 having some -- some sort of a system of intelligence, whereby reports from

23 the lower echelons or areas would come up to a person like yourself when

24 you were the Chief of Staff. Now, to -- while answering questions from

25 the learned counsel very recently, you've just given a bold denial, which

1 of course means that those reports would not contain all that or you did

2 not consult it or were there no reports and all what was being talked of

3 was something which never happened or was there a suppression of facts.

4 What happened, because in an organisation, there is always a

5 reporting. The higher officers learn of things, they learn of the

6 activities of their junior officers, they find out what their activities

7 are. They write their reports, they recommend them, they place them here,

8 and they are in different positions. But from your statement it appears

9 that either there was no nexus or there was no reporting or there was no

10 intelligence. Would you be kind enough in letting us know about how the

11 intelligence worked and how the reporting system was established within

12 the KLA, please. I'm thankful.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I've mentioned it earlier, during

14 the previous days - and I'm speaking for the period while I was Chief of

15 Staff - the commanders would come directly to report to the staff. And

16 I've mentioned before that in March we met with zone commanders. And

17 whatever they reported to me was what I knew, and for -- from what they

18 have reported, I don't remember that I have been informed about this.

19 As for 1998, I was not in that position and there was no way I

20 could know about the reporting from different zones. I'm only speaking of

21 what I know based on the reports I received from zone commanders.

22 JUDGE CHOWHAN: But what was suggested by the learned counsel

23 regarding some of the facts related and pertained to your tenure as the

24 Chief of Staff, on that also, there was a reply of unawareness on your

25 part. But you haven't replied to my question which basically was: Was

1 there an intelligence service within the KLA, being such a big

2 organisation? And secondly, was there a system of verification of reports

3 if somebody gave you a correct report or not a correct report and was

4 there cross-checking because that's the way the intelligence works? Thank

5 you.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Within the frames of the staff,

7 there was the directorate of intelligence and counter-intelligence. There

8 were at lower levels as well, in the level of brigade. I'm speaking of

9 the reports that I've received, and since a long time has passed, I can't

10 possibly remember all the reports. It is possible that such cases might

11 have happened, but for the moment, I cannot answer by simply yes or no.

12 JUDGE CHOWHAN: To whom did the director of intelligence report

13 and how was the report passed? Did it go through you as the Chief of

14 Staff or was it sent separately, without your knowledge? Whom did he

15 report to?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During January, February, and March,

17 reports were made and -- including reports to the commander of the General

18 Staff.

19 JUDGE CHOWHAN: And these did not pass through you?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not all of them.

21 JUDGE CHOWHAN: This is a vague answer. What type of reports

22 passed through you? You were the Chief of Staff.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During that period, I mean January,

24 February, and March, the reports of the intelligence directorate were

25 mainly on the movements of the Serb forces, their positions, and their

1 state of readiness, while -- I'm speaking about reports that I've received

2 from them.

3 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Thank you -- oh, I mean, we're still not getting

4 it.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

7 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Zyrapi. My name is Djuro

10 Cepic. I'm one of the Defence lawyers, and I will be asking you a couple

11 of questions.

12 First of all, I would like to talk about the training areas in

13 Albania, where for a time you yourself trained members of the so-called

14 KLA. Can you please tell me whether you know if there were any foreign

15 instructors there who trained the so-called KLA.

16 A. During January, February, March the training was conducted by me

17 and other fellow officers, former JNA officers. We didn't have any other

18 instructors.

19 Q. Are you referring now to Albania or to Kosmat?

20 A. I'm referring to Albania; that's what your question was.

21 Q. Thank you. Now that we're talking about Albania, can you please

22 tell me where the training areas and centres for the KLA fighters were

23 located.

24 A. I'm speaking about the time when I was there. The training was

25 carried out in mountainous areas. There was a training facility in the

1 mountains of Dajti outside Tirana. I was there and contacted the training

2 of these soldiers. I don't know for other areas where training was

3 carried out, and I'm speaking about March, April, and May --

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

5 JUDGE BONOMY: You're now talking about March, April, and May.

6 You started answering during January, February, and March the training was

7 conducted by me and other fellow officers. And you're referring there to

8 1998, I think. Is that right?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, 1998.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: And now you make the point March, April, and May.

11 Now, when did you first arrive and become involved in training?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I arrived there in Tirana sometime

13 in mid-March 1998 and I stayed there until May.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

15 Mr. Cepic.

16 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Would it perhaps refresh your memory if I were to say that one of

18 the training areas was in Tropoja in the village of Isidol and then in the

19 village of Babin near Bajram Curija and then in the village of Heljsan on

20 the Tropoja-Kuks road. Where the fighters were massing up for their

21 infiltration into the Kosova territory, then in the village of Kruma, the

22 village of Vlahnja, Peskopeja, the port of Drac. Let me now not enumerate

23 any further, but would that perhaps refresh your memory?

24 A. As far as the locations that you mentioned Tropoja, Krum, these

25 were indeed training locations after the bombing started in 1999,

1 April/May of this year. To my knowledge, Durres, at that time, was not a

2 location suitable for training because it's a town. Maybe it was as a

3 base where Albanians from different parts of Europe were arriving to join.

4 Q. And would it not be correct to say -- precisely, yes, precisely.

5 And would it not be correct to say that for the purposes of the

6 so-called KLA, the depots, garages, army barracks, that they were put to

7 the use of the so-called KLA, so would that be correct to say?

8 A. What you are referring to is about the period April, May, June

9 1999.

10 Q. I'm talking about 1998.

11 A. As I already said, in 1998 I already told you the locations where

12 I was and where I conducted the training. I don't think I've mentioned

13 depots or garages or other facilities of the Albanian army. There was

14 certain private houses used as collection points for weapons, but during

15 my time, I don't know of any other locations except for those that I've

16 already mentioned.

17 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, I make this claim on the basis of excerpts by -- from

18 a book "Story About Freedom and War" by Ramush Haradinaj, which is

19 mentioned in page 4, paragraph 1 of your 2005 statement. In page 15 of

20 the transcript today, you stated that the future fighters would come from

21 all over Europe. Can you tell us whether there were any fighters

22 originating from Bosnia and Herzegovina that joined the ranks of the

23 so-called KLA?

24 A. Albanians who lived there, yes, to my knowledge.

25 Q. We saw an exhibit here marked P2464 that you brought before the

1 Court here, and it pertains to disciplinary measures imposed on soldier

2 Hasim Beja and it is stated there that he was from Bosnia. And this is

3 stated as a reason why this disciplinary measure was actually drafted in

4 the Bosnian language rather than in Albanian. So he was not an Albanian,

5 right?

6 A. To my knowledge, he is from Kosova, Bosnian from Kosova, and they

7 speak Serbian, and I even mentioned the village where, Kalluder is the

8 name, where the population is Bosnian and they speak Serbian.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the registrar to

11 prepare 3D177 for use.

12 Q. In the meantime, Mr. Zyrapi, did you know that there was some

13 fighters from Saudi Arabia as well as from Ireland and there was an

14 attempt for some soldiers to arrive from as far as the Philippines? Did

15 you know about that?

16 A. There haven't been such soldiers in Kosova. As far as the

17 Albanians are concerned, they came from all over the world, even from

18 beyond the Atlantic, from the United States, from Australia, and other

19 countries. This is what I know.

20 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, did you hear of Ekrem Avdija born in 1971 in Kosovska

21 Mitrovica? He was a KLA fighter.

22 A. I don't seem to remember this name. I can't possibly remember all

23 the names of the KLA soldiers.

24 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, I wanted to put his assertion to you, that being that

25 in the village of Donje Prekaze in Srbica, he himself established a

1 military camp for the training of Mujahedin. The name was Abu Bekir Sidik

2 and the name of the company was the Mujahedin Company in Kosovo, the

3 Drenica Company. Did you know about that?

4 A. Which period are you talking about?

5 Q. June 1998.

6 A. I have no knowledge about that, what you are putting to me.

7 Q. Another question on the topic. Did you know of an attempt with

8 some other KLA fighters in the same period of time, or rather, there was a

9 group of the Mujahedin from Saudi Arabia who were supposed to be

10 transferred to Smonica in mid-June. There were four citizens of Saudi

11 Arabia. There was an Irish person using the pseudonym of Abu Omer, two

12 unknown persons, two Arab persons, and another person who was a citizen of

13 Malaysia by the name of Abu Hamet. In that incident, a skirmish ensued

14 involving them and the security forces, whereupon two people were wounded.

15 Did you know about that?

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.

17 MR. MARCUSSEN: I think the witness has already said that he did

18 not know of any Mujahedin and they are just repeating the question in

19 another form I think.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: And it relates to a time for which there is no

21 basis in the evidence to suppose that he would have knowledge of these

22 matters. Let's get to something that the witness is likely to be able to

23 deal with, Mr. Cepic.

24 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. I suppose you don't know about the north of Albania where during

1 1998 there was a Bin Ladin's cell there. I suppose you don't know about

2 that either?

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the boogeymen are not likely to advance the

4 progress of this case, Mr. Cepic. Let's concentrate on real live issues.

5 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I believe we will deal

6 with it during the Defence case, and I have a basis for this question.

7 And I surely hope I will be in a position to explain it to you.

8 Q. You've described your arrival in Kosovo. You said you came on the

9 28th of May, 1998. You entered illegally, of course, same as on many

10 other occasions where you moved between Kosovo and Albania. Can you tell

11 us which routes were used by the fighters to enter Kosovo from Albania,

12 and what were the roads used for supply for the KLA? If this may be of

13 assistance, perhaps we could see P2469.

14 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the court

15 administration for assistance so that the witness could indicate the

16 routes used.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a very small map to

18 accurately describe the routes used. We used many routes whenever we

19 could have access to Kosova, both soldiers and material means.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Would it not be easier for the witness just to tell

21 us the routes that were used? These diagrams often don't really assist us

22 very precisely.

23 Why don't you just tell us your knowledge of the routes that

24 fighters used to come into Kosovo.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is rather difficult for me indeed

1 to give you accurate information, but when I personally entered, I entered

2 from Vllana, passing through the Kurore mountain. I descended to Demjan

3 village, then continued my way through Drenoc village and then I entered

4 Drenice. The supplies came from other passages, but I cannot give you

5 accurate information because it is difficult to draw the lines of these

6 passages. I just described one route that I myself used.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: But are there not other names of places through

8 which the routes run that you can give us which will give counsel an

9 indication of where this was taking place?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I indicated the places I travelled

11 from, that is one route for people and for materiel means, and this was

12 used also by others. They use also the Gjakova route, which we have

13 described earlier from Tropoja, Bajram Curija and Zal Her. And then there

14 was another route from Koretice but I cannot describe accurately every

15 possible place, but these are the places which the -- from which the

16 border was crossed.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you still like something drawn, Mr. Cepic?

18 MR. CEPIC: No. Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

20 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I believe it is far simpler to pursue

21 this line of questioning or this mode.

22 Q. Can you tell us what routes were used to supply the central and

23 the northern area of the KLA? For example, if there was a supply of

24 weapons and a number of soldiers who were going towards Drenica and

25 further up, where would they go if they went through Djakovica?

1 A. In the direction of Gjakova, from the border you passed through

2 Gllogjan territory and then followed the road to the villages in the

3 territory of Kline, Mrasor, then towards Malisheve, and then in the

4 direction of Drenice. That was the route we used for that purpose. We

5 used many other routes as well, but this was the most frequently used

6 route.

7 Q. How about the units of the KLA in the east and the south-east in

8 the municipality of Kacanik, which routes were used for their supply?

9 A. The routes were those coming from the Macedonian border.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Cepic, we'll be breaking in a moment.

11 If the point here is that there are areas where action by the army

12 or the police is justified, there's no reason why you can't put specific

13 routes to the witness and obtain confirmation of the ones that really

14 matter for the case, if that is in fact what the aim of this

15 cross-examination is. Are we likely to finish the witness today, do you

16 know?

17 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] It will depend on Mr. Lukic, but as

18 far as I'm concerned, I will do my utmost, and this should be half an hour

19 tops, not more than that.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, can you help me?

21 MR. LUKIC: I can help you. I don't know whether you would be

22 satisfied with my answer, but I think that I would be left only with half

23 an hour. I don't think I can finish my cross in half an hour.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we'll -- if this is convenient, we'll be

25 sitting until ten past 7.00 anyway, since we started late. So what we'll

1 do is stop at 7.00 and hear argument about the evidence that -- to which

2 there's objection taken from the next scheduled witness, and that will

3 allow us to make clear how that evidence is going to be presented. It's

4 been hanging there as an issue to be dealt with.

5 Now, if Mr. O'Sullivan has been given the wrong impression and is

6 inconvenienced by that, then we'll change the arrangement. But if it

7 suits him, then we could do that at 7.00.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: I believe Mr. O'Sullivan will be in the courtroom at

9 that time.

10 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, with that in mind, may I have the next

11 witness released to go back to his hotel?

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Sounds like it, Mr. Hannis.

13 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: And, Your Honour, can I just raise the one issue

15 that is kind of sitting out there as an unknown. We've got a 186-page

16 transcript of a statement from this witness that was just provided to us,

17 and that could cause some additional cross-examination in the morning and

18 it may not.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you'll just need to put that novel aside

20 tonight, Mr. Ackerman, and read something much more gripping.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: It would be so nice if I could do that. You have

22 no idea how much I have -- the last word I wanted to hear was there was

23 this transcript; I'm telling you that.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Anyway, I take the point you make and I'm grateful

25 for the fact that you're addressing the issue so expeditiously.

1 Mr. Zyrapi, we need our break again. Could you leave with the

2 usher, and we'll back in half an hour, at 6.00.

3 [The witness stands down]

4 --- Recess taken at 5.31 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 6.00 p.m.

6 [The witness takes the stand]

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

8 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, so as to conclude with the topic of routes, is it

10 correct that one of the marked routes was the one going across the Junik

11 mountains, through the Junik village, as well as Decani, Caragoj,

12 Jablanica, and further on toward Drenica?

13 A. Yes, it is one of the routes.

14 Q. Another important route went via Mount Pastrik, Prizren, river

15 Drin, the village of Zerze, Orahovac, and further onwards. Is that

16 correct?

17 A. Yes, the Pashtrik route was one of the routes that we used, and I

18 mentioned in this context, the route that I used.

19 Q. Thank you. Since we are on the topic of Mount Junik, there is

20 also the location of Kosare there. That was a border point of the VJ at

21 the time. After the conflict in Kosovo, you provided -- you gave an

22 interview to journalist Harim Gazi. And in that interview you mentioned

23 that one of the most important battles including the KLA was in the region

24 of Kosare?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Did you participate in the planning and organising of a military

2 action called Strela Jedan, arrow 1, which commenced on the 9th of April,

3 1999, and was directed towards the area of Kosare?

4 A. I did participate in the planning and organising of Shigjeta,

5 while for April the plan was drafted by the command of this unit. That

6 was in Albania.

7 Q. Can you tell me who commanded that unit?

8 A. The commander of this unit was Rrustem Berisha.

9 Q. Was Rrustem Berisha the officer of the Albanian army or a KLA

10 officer?

11 A. Rrustem Berisha was a former JNA officer and a KLA officer.

12 Q. Thank you. You know that the operation commenced on the 9th of

13 April, 1998 [as interpreted], on the Serb Christmas --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Easter.

15 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Can you please just utter a spoken answer for the transcript?

17 MR. CEPIC: Apologies. Just one correction for the transcript. I

18 said "Easter," not "Christmas." Thank you. I also said "1999"

19 not "1998."

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Zyrapi, is that correct that Strela Jedan

21 commenced on the 9th of April, 1999, on the Serbian Easter and that there

22 was some heavy combat?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: In one of the answers the expression "Shideta" was

25 used. Is that the same operation?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shigjeta. It was the name of the

2 operation.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Not Strela Jedan?

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, Shigjeta has the same

5 meaning in Albanian as the Strela in B/C/S.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

7 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I thank the booths for the

8 clarification.

9 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, speaking from the military point of view, since you

10 participated in the planning of the operation, why was it important for

11 the KLA?

12 A. Speaking about the operation in general, it was important because

13 during that time the procurement of weapons for the KLA was very weak. It

14 was very difficult for us to procure weapons, and then as a result of the

15 beginning of NATO bombing, it was very important for us to open up

16 corridors for procuring weapons.

17 Q. This action lasted until mid-May. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In early May, in the area of Mount Pastrik, Strela Dva, Arrow 2,

20 commenced. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes, that's when the operation started in Pastrik zone.

22 Q. It had the same goal as Strela Jedan?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zyrapi. Let's not waste any more time on that.

25 You mentioned quite a number of things about the KLA structure,

1 the zones, the brigades, and other units. But I'm interested in the

2 following. In the statement you gave in 2005, when describing the unit

3 commanded by Daut Haradinaj, you said that in addition to two battalions

4 it also comprised 21 village staffs. I'm interested in these village

5 staffs in the territory of the entire Kosovo. Isn't it correct that such

6 staffs comprised mainly the inhabitants of the particular villages?

7 A. As I've mentioned it in my statement, the local staffs refer to

8 the villages where they were formed or to the municipalities where they

9 were formed.

10 Q. I wanted to know about the composition of those local staffs. Did

11 they mainly include the local inhabitants, the local villagers?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. The KLA armed those, didn't it?

14 A. When I took up duty, these staffs were already formed and they

15 were supplied by the KLA.

16 Q. Is it correct if I say that, due to the shortage of uniforms, most

17 of such staff members wore civilian clothes, although they had been

18 distributed weapons?

19 A. During that period, the local staffs did not have that many

20 uniforms. They had a few only.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zyrapi, are these personnel in addition to the

22 17 or 18.000 that you described as the complement of the KLA armed forces?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. These were for the earlier

24 periods of time, from March and on, when the re-organisation started.

25 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I continue?

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, if you can clarify this, I'd be grateful,

2 yeah.

3 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I will endeavour.

4 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, as best you can remember, when were the local staffs

5 established?

6 A. I don't know when each and every local staff was established, but

7 when I took up duty, the majority of local staffs had already been formed.

8 Q. Can you tell me how much of the Kosovo territory they covered?

9 Did it include most of the villages in Kosovo? Can you give us a

10 percentage? Say out of a total number of villages, how many of them had

11 their local staffs?

12 A. It is difficult for me to give you a percentage. I cannot tell

13 you precisely how many, in percentage, they represented of the entire

14 territory.

15 Q. May we conclude that that percentage was quite high?

16 A. When I arrived, a certain percentage existed but not very high.

17 Those areas that I visited, they had local staffs, but I cannot give you

18 an accurate percentage.

19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zyrapi.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I would still like the question I asked

21 answered. You gave us evidence that when you were Chief of Staff, the KLA

22 had 17 to 18.000 soldiers in Kosovo. Does that include the people who

23 were members of the local village staffs?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During that period of time, no,

25 because the local staffs then no longer existed, but there were units and

1 brigades, as I've already explained.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: But you've just told us that these local staffs

3 existed when you took over.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The local staffs existed when I

5 entered Kosova, and then the re-organisation took place.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: So what happened to the local staffs?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were included in frames of the

8 units, then later the platoons, the squads, the brigades were formed.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: So a platoon or a squad might simply be made up of

10 the members of the KLA from a particular village?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were such cases.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

13 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Were they in a way - I'm now referring to the local staffs - still

15 in the overall KLA system in the sense that they were subordinate to

16 certain units, depending on their actual location?

17 A. When I entered Kosova, some of them were subordinated to the zone

18 commands; but later on, they were re-organised. I'm speaking about the

19 period of time June/July. Some were under the zones and some were still

20 under development. At that time, there were no formed units such as

21 brigades or battalions.

22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zyrapi. When you spoke about the number of troops,

23 I would like to investigate this issue by asking you one question. Do you

24 know a gentleman by the name of Pleurat Sediu who was in the KLA staff in

25 Tirana in the spring of 1999?

1 A. I don't know anyone by the name of Pleurat Sediu, at least this is

2 how the name was interpreted to me. I don't know anyone by that name.

3 Q. Let me spell the name and that should clarify perhaps this issue.

4 So the name is P-l-e-u-r-a-t, Pleurat, and the last name is Sediu,

5 S-e-d-i-u.

6 A. Pleurat Sediu, yes.

7 Q. What was his function at the time?

8 A. To my knowledge, he was the spokesperson of the KLA outside

9 Kosova.

10 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, he gave an interview to Laura Rozen, published on the

11 24th of May, 1999, in which he says, I quote: "We have 35.000 soldiers,

12 KLA soldiers, in there, women and men of military age, armed, and engaged

13 in combat."

14 Do you agree with what he says that in May 1999 the KLA had 35.000

15 soldiers?

16 A. To the information that I had, until March there was 17.000 to

17 18.000 that I mentioned. I don't know if there were 35.000 engaged in the

18 KLA by May. I don't think so.

19 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I would now like Defence Exhibit 5D20

20 to be brought to screen.

21 Q. You can see the underlined section here, the relevant section that

22 I quoted to you. So this is paragraph 3. Can we now move on to the

23 second page, paragraph 3.

24 Mr. Zyrapi -- so he claims that there were 35.000 fighters. Did

25 you perhaps --

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. -- Yes, Mr. Marcussen.

2 MR. MARCUSSEN: I think that very statement by -- from the article

3 that has just been put to the witness, the witness said he didn't think

4 that number was correct, but he didn't know.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Indeed, he has.

6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, we will now move on to another topic. This is the

8 topic of weapons. You said to us that the so-called KLA had had only

9 light infantry weapons, rifles, AK-47 that comprised 70 to 80 per cent of

10 the weapons, light machine-guns, heavy machine-guns, just a few mortars.

11 My learned colleague Mr. Ackerman asked you about some other weapons.

12 Now, my question to you is whether you had any heavy artillery, whether

13 the KLA had any heavy artillery?

14 A. As I've mentioned earlier, inside Kosova these were the weapons

15 that were used. We did not have heavy artillery weapons.

16 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I would now like the Defence Exhibit

17 5D19 to be brought to screen. This is a video-clip that lasts only about.

18 This is a video-clip that lasts only about 40 seconds, Your

19 Honours.

20 [Videotape played]

21 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

22 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, can you please describe this artillery piece here. Do

23 you perhaps -- can you perhaps identify it?

24 A. The first that we saw were recoilless cannons. I said earlier

25 that there were no heavy artillery weapons inside Kosova. What we saw in

1 the second part of the clip, it's a heavy artillery weapon but it is not

2 inside the territory of Kosova.

3 Q. Can you please tell me where was it then?

4 A. It is outside the Kosova border. It's in the territory of

5 Albania, but I don't know exactly in which location.

6 Q. So how do you know that it was not in Kosovo but in Albania when

7 you don't know its exact location?

8 A. Simply because we did not have heavy artillery weapons inside

9 Kosova, and this is from the period May/June 1999 when this heavy

10 artillery weapon was there.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's ask the question the other way around.

12 How do you know that that was in Albania?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the appearance of the soldiers

14 that I saw, they were outside of Kosova and that artillery is outside

15 Kosova. The person speaking on the clip, he was not in Kosova, he was

16 outside.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: So these were KLA soldiers; is that right?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: And you know -- or you say that they were normally

20 outside, but how does that prove that this particular film was taken

21 outside of Kosovo?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can tell that this clip was made

23 outside Kosova because of the way the soldiers look and because of the

24 fact that we did not have heavy artillery weapons in Kosova. And this

25 event took place during the Shigjeta operation.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: What do you mean by the way the soldiers look?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Their clothes, and the fact that in

3 Kosova we did not have helmets; and, as I said, we did not have heavy

4 artillery weapons inside Kosova.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Cepic, are you -- have you a foundation

6 for saying that that was in Kosovo?

7 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I think that the witness gave us the

8 correct information, and now he specified the time, the relevant

9 time-period. He said that this was the Strela operation, the operation

10 mounted by the KLA into Kosovo from the Albanian side and this artillery

11 fire was in fact the artillery support for other KLA units engaged in the

12 Kosare and Pastrik sectors.

13 Q. Is that correct, Mr. Zyrapi?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. And the artillery fire targeted mostly the Caragoj

16 valley area. Is that correct?

17 A. I'm not -- I am not familiar with the term Caragoj valley.

18 Q. That's an area beyond the state border, the border between Kosova

19 and Albania, in the direction of Djakovica. The villages of Meja,

20 Korenica, Junik.

21 A. It was in that direction, that's where the Serb forces were.

22 Q. Thank you. Mr. Zyrapi, in your statement you described how in

23 July 1998 you were in the village of Jablanica in the KLA staff and that

24 Ramush Haradinaj escorted you around and showed you the territory around

25 the Glodjan village and the other villages in that sector near the

1 Radonjic lake. Do you know that when the Serb forces returned to those

2 positions in early September, that some bodies were found there, bodies of

3 civilians, Serbs, Albanians who were not loyal to the KLA. Do you know

4 anything about that?

5 A. I did visit the area at that time, but I had no information about

6 these cases.

7 Q. And do you know that in the village of Jablanica, precisely at the

8 time when you were in the staff, that a detention centre was located in

9 that compound and that 12 people went missing from that detention

10 facility? Do you know anything about that?

11 A. No. During the time I visited the positions and the units in that

12 area, I didn't come across such a detention facility.

13 Q. Just one more question in this line of questioning so as not to

14 waste our precious time. You said that your staff was located -- your

15 headquarters was located at the Berisa mountains. The village of Klecka

16 lies to the north of this area. Do you know that crematorium, a lime

17 kiln, was located there where more than 25 civilians had been burned and

18 KFOR, in fact, drafted the statement some remains, human remains, were

19 found there. Do you know anything about that? And two brothers, the

20 Murzaku brothers were arrested subsequently?

21 A. When the staff was positioned in Berisa mountains, it was during

22 the time when I became Chief of Staff in November, but I had no knowledge

23 that this existed there at that time. It is a part engaged in the

24 production of limestone there, but I have not heard of this kind of use.

25 Q. Thank you. And to my last question. You brought to the

1 Prosecution the interim regulations on the internal affairs in the army.

2 This is Exhibit 2449. On page 3 of the English translation where the flag

3 is discussed, Albanian version, first paragraph on page 4, it says, I

4 quote: "Hatred for the eternal enemy which is destroying," text

5 missing, "and endeavouring to take away everything sacred and fundamental

6 to us."

7 Mr. Zyrapi, who is the eternal enemy?

8 A. In this statement it is -- it means the Serbs.

9 Q. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Zyrapi.

10 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no

11 further questions for this witness.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Cepic, for directing your questions

13 so pointedly to significant issues.

14 Now, Mr. Lukic.

15 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Good evening, Mr. Zyrapi. The bad news is that I

17 have questions for you, and the good news is that I'm the last Defence

18 counsel to have questions for you.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like the Prosecution Exhibit

20 2447 to be brought to the screen because this might be of assistance, and

21 I will, by way of introduction, say the following.

22 Q. This is a map on which you described what routes your forces used

23 to pull out from the area A to the area B, area C. So we're talking about

24 the Serb offensive in late March 1999.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please zoom in a little bit so

1 that we can see those areas A, B, and C, and D. Just a little bit more

2 and just a little bit more. Thank you. That would be fine.

3 Q. The main force pulled out from one area to another; that's one

4 thing. But do you know that some units tried to break through the

5 encirclement, that they tried to break through towards the east, the Trnje

6 area, and that there was fighting there, too.

7 A. Which period are you talking about and Trnje village?

8 Q. I'm talking about when the units retreated from area A to area B.

9 A. When the units withdrew from zone A to B, from the reports and

10 information that we received, retreated to zone B. And I have no

11 information about any other movement.

12 Q. So you have no information about any units trying to retreat

13 towards Albania and that there was fighting in Landovica, too, in Petrovo

14 Selo, even in Zur. Although there had been no KLA forces in Landovica

15 before that period, fighting was recorded in this period in that village.

16 Landovica is to the south of Mala Krusa, for instance, Pirane.

17 A. Yes. We talked about the period when the units withdrew to zone

18 B, and I have no information that any units went in that direction.

19 Q. Thank you. If you don't know, it's a legitimate answer. I was

20 just trying to verify something.

21 You say that in the encirclement there were some brigades, and you

22 specified which ones. May we conclude that not all of the KLA brigades

23 were inside the encirclement and that some were outside?

24 A. When we talked about the zones, A, B, C, the units and the

25 brigades found in those zones of responsibility, 24, 25, they were within

1 those zones. I'm talking about that period and those moments. The

2 numbers were 124 and 125 of the brigades.

3 Q. How about some other brigades, 111th, 112th, and 113? Or, say,

4 162nd, the one we mentioned the other day, were they all in the

5 encirclement or not?

6 A. Brigades 111, 112, 113, 114, they were in the context of zone A,

7 whereas 162 was in zone B -- D. Not B but D.

8 Q. How many KLA brigades were outside the encirclement, do you know?

9 A. No brigades were outside the zones that I mentioned.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, was the evidence not here of a

11 withdrawal from A through B to the line at C?

12 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, but I'm trying to --

13 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, just bear with me. I'm not challenging

14 anything at the moment. Was that the evidence originally?

15 MR. LUKIC: That's right.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: From which it would follow that the 111th to 114th

17 would have to withdraw as well. Can we clarify where they went to when

18 this happened?

19 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I'll try to ask the witness to clarify that.

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Zyrapi, you heard what the Honourable Judges

21 would like to hear about. What about the brigades that Judge Bonomy

22 mentioned, did they retreat from zone A to B and then to C?

23 A. When I talk about zones A, B, and D, I mean the Brigades 124, 123,

24 and 125, but the other brigade was in the Drenica zone. It is zone E.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: That makes sense now. It didn't make sense that

1 these four brigades were being referred to as in A. Thank you.

2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. [Interpretation] Beyond the zones which were in the encirclement,

4 were there any armed KLA units?

5 A. To my knowledge, all the units were within the territories that I

6 described.

7 Q. For example, we have the following piece of data. Close to area

8 A, we know that a junction was held by the KLA there and as well as the

9 railroad in the town of Zerze and Bela Crkva and Celina, but this is not

10 encompassed by the encirclement you drew on the map. Therefore, I'd like

11 to know which units could have been in those villages. Were those some

12 local units or parts of the brigades?

13 A. In those villages that you mentioned, there were no units of the

14 KLA. All the units were within the lines that I described.

15 Q. What about the brigades from the Dukagjini area, were they also

16 within the encirclement?

17 A. No. I spoke about the Pashtrik zone. The Dukagjin zone is in its

18 own area with its own brigades.

19 Q. Thank you. I may have been insufficiently clear in my question.

20 I wanted to know this: Outside of the territories you marked as those

21 being encircled, were there any other KLA brigades there? We are not

22 talking only about the Pastrik zone, but generally, about the KLA.

23 A. From the reports I had, all the units were within the areas that I

24 mentioned. There were no units outside these areas.

25 Q. Perhaps you're tired and perhaps I am, too. But perhaps we could

1 go back to the brigades which fell within the Dukagjini area. They were

2 not encircled. Isn't that so?

3 A. They were in the territory where they were concentrated. But I

4 describe the areas I had information on.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could scroll down -- [In

7 English] Sorry, we should scroll up. That's okay. Thanks.

8 Q. [Interpretation] To the left we see the front line going through

9 Izbica. Do you know what unit was in that village at that time?

10 A. In Izbice, there was the units which fell within the

11 responsibility of Brigade 112. It was part of its zone of responsibility.

12 Q. Thank you. Your positions that were in the areas you marked as A,

13 B, and C and primarily in zone A, had been fortified. There were

14 embankments, trenches, and so on and so forth. Is that correct?

15 A. The lines I drew in zone A, area A, were the fortified front lines

16 as much as we could to fortify them, and the units were stationed in

17 those -- in that front line that I have described there.

18 Q. Thank you. In the same area of Retimlje, there was a make-shift

19 hospital which could serve as many as 500 wounded troops at a time. Is

20 that correct?

21 A. In Reti there was a clinic. I think I mentioned it before.

22 Q. Thank you. In some villages, even before the outbreak of the

23 conflict, there were or there had been no civilians. For example, the

24 villages of Opterusa, Retimlje and Studencane [Realtime transcript read in

25 error "Studimlje"]; is that correct?

1 A. Can you repeat the question, please.

2 Q. Even before the outbreak of the conflict, precisely because there

3 was a possibility of one, the KLA had removed the civilian population from

4 the villages of Opterusa, Retimlje, and Studencane [Realtime transcript

5 read in error "Studimlje"]. Is that correct?

6 A. Which period are you talking about, the beginning of the conflict

7 in March?

8 Q. Yes, the very beginning of the conflict?

9 JUDGE BONOMY: I think your reference was to the village of

10 Studencane and not to the village of Studimlje, as it now appears.

11 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, Studencane.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in the villages that were

13 mentioned in the reports, there had been earlier artillery attacks and the

14 population had been -- had left the villages before the attacks started.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Thank you. During the clashes, all the time there were NATO

17 sorties. Is that correct?

18 A. You think during the combat the NATO forces were present where?

19 Q. In the air, NATO planes.

20 A. It was a time of air-strikes. Beginning from the 24th onwards

21 there were constant bombings.

22 Q. On that occasion, could you see them targeting Serbian positions

23 and units?

24 A. Yes, there has been targeting of Serbian positions and units.

25 Q. Thank you. We received exhibit entitled "The Operational Zone of

1 Drenica" from the Prosecution.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 6D107 put on the

3 screen.

4 Q. This Defence made an excerpt from this document. All I'd like to

5 hear from you, provided you can still answer my questions this late in the

6 day, is to confirm, or rather, to say whether these are the names of KLA

7 commanders to the extent of your knowledge, of course. Although the

8 document is in English, can you make out the names in the first column --

9 well, first of all, we see Adem Jashari at the top, then Selimi Sylejman,

10 a.k.a. Sultan, and then we have the main HQ for the operational zone

11 Drenica and this is the zone the document refers to. And then further

12 down, we have four columns. The first one contains the name of

13 municipality, then the unit in the second, the name in the third, and the

14 position in the fourth, namely, the position of the given person.

15 Can you recognise these names as the names of those people who

16 belonged to the command structures of the KLA?

17 A. Yes. Yes, I do.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go to page 3 now, line

19 8.

20 Q. We see here a name, Selimi Sylejman, a.k.a. Sultan, who was a KLA

21 commander in the village of Ovcare at a certain point in time. Is this

22 correct, and this of course was before he was promoted?

23 A. Yes, yes, he was commander in that village. Then he was promoted

24 as zone commander, Drenica Operational Zone.

25 Q. Thank you. In column 3 it says Padalista as the village, and the

1 village HQ commander is Loshi Liri. Do you know this KLA commander and

2 did you ever meet him in Padalista?

3 A. I don't seem to remember the name. I've passed through many

4 places, but I don't remember this.

5 Q. Thank you. We will no longer be needing this exhibit.

6 MR. LUKIC: It's time to break if it suits Your Honours.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: It would be a suitable time to break.

8 Well, Mr. Zyrapi, we will have to interrupt your evidence again

9 and resume it tomorrow. I assure you that at that time after he's had his

10 rest, Mr. Lukic will be brief with you. You need to be back here tomorrow

11 in the morning. We will resume at 9.00 tomorrow. Overnight, again, no

12 discussion with anyone about your evidence. You may now leave the

13 courtroom and we'll see you tomorrow at 9.00.

14 [The witness stands down]

15 JUDGE BONOMY: We shall now deal with the issues raised in a

16 Defence motion to preclude the admission of Exhibit P2480, and an

17 objection also in relation to the notice under Rule 65 ter of the

18 testimony and exhibits to be used with the next witness.

19 The submission, Mr. O'Sullivan, in relation to not admitting the

20 exhibit P2480 in part or in whole is easy to follow. The position about

21 the 65 ter notice is not quite so clear. It's become a bit clearer I

22 think by the intimation of a notice to modify the 65 ter notice, which

23 we'll take as an application for authority to do that.

24 Is there really -- well, could you address that any further? Can

25 you amplify that? Are you dissatisfied on that point still with the

1 notice that the application that the Prosecution have made?

2 MR. O'SULLIVAN: We're aware of the notice, Your Honour, and our

3 objection in this motion, I suppose, is in anticipation of any attempted

4 modification of both the scope of examination and the exhibits which are

5 broadened by that late notice, which came as late as last Thursday. The

6 pre-trial brief of 10th of May set out both the scope of evidence, and

7 annex C indicated the exhibits which would be tendered or used with this

8 witness. It's on that basis we prepared for this witness. And there was

9 no reason why this couldn't have been made known to us last May, when you

10 ordered them to do so.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Hannis, could you address that issue first

12 of all.

13 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

14 With regard to the exhibits referred to in paragraph 9, I would

15 indicate Exhibits P866, 867, and 1859 I do not intend to use. So we don't

16 need to discuss those.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, just give me a second until I get the motion

18 here. This is -- and these are mentioned in paragraph 9. Give me these

19 numbers again.

20 MR. HANNIS: 866, 867, and 1859, they're the last three in the

21 running list.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

23 MR. HANNIS: As for the first one 2480. 2480 is the statement.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.

25 MR. HANNIS: 24 --

1 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll come back to that in a moment. If you could

2 deal with the question of expanding the 65 ter notice first of all.

3 MR. HANNIS: Okay.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: And tell me what justification there is for

5 allowing you to do that.

6 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, there are two things I filed: The

7 supplemental information from the 4th and 5th of November, which -- does

8 Your Honour have that? This is where the defendant some corrections to

9 his statement, about eight different corrections, and he told us -- I

10 think we added four new paragraphs that basically go to his background.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't know if I have that. No, all I have

12 readily to hand is a document which is an e-mail of the 11th of -- or the

13 7th --

14 MR. HANNIS: The e-mail of the 7th of November.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.

16 MR. HANNIS: And we listed seven items, basically, which are from

17 the statement.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.

19 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I added those and requested leave to

20 lead evidence about those in anticipation of the possibility that the

21 Court did not allow in his statement. If his statement were allowed in, I

22 was under the understanding that that evidence would be in. Whether I led

23 it by asking the witness questions about it or not. But in light of the

24 objection that was made about the statement not being permitted, then I

25 thought I needed to raise that and seek permission to lead it in the event

1 I have to present all of this witness's evidence via live testimony rather

2 than a statement.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: When was the statement disclosed?

4 MR. HANNIS: I'll check with my case manager.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: That must have been before the trial started.

6 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. So the information was disclosed at that

8 stage, albeit not made clear in the 65 ter summary as an issue. Is that

9 right?

10 MR. HANNIS: Correct, Your Honour, as well as his transcript from

11 his testimony in Milosevic.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Go then to this second issue, which is the

13 objection to the evidence being presented in writing in this way. The

14 statement is P2480, is it, the witness's statement?

15 MR. HANNIS: Um --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: The principal --

17 MR. HANNIS: 2480.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.

19 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, Rule 92 now and old Rule 89(F)

20 will allow for the admissibility of this evidence in written form when the

21 witness comes in and attests that the evidence contained therein is his

22 declaration and he would answer the questions the same. Mr. O'Sullivan's

23 motion, in the first part, said, well, this is a different case because

24 this witness has disavowed this statement during his prior testimony by

25 saying, well, that was only a working draft and I was speaking in English,

1 not my native tongue, so there are some problems with it.

2 But, Your Honour, in the supplemental information and based on our

3 proofing with him, he's now reviewed the statement, he's now read a B/C/S

4 version of the statement, he's made some changes, and I fully anticipate

5 that when he comes in, he will attest that it's true and accurate and that

6 he would answer the questions the way they are in the statement.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: There are other objections which I think are,

8 principally, that there's a great deal in it that's expression of opinion

9 without a clear indication of the basis for that opinion or view.

10 MR. HANNIS: Yeah.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: And secondly, there's an awful lot of hearsay about

12 crucial issues in the case where the actual basis for this hearsay is

13 rather vague. And speaking for myself at the moment, I think I would be

14 greatly assisted by a presentation of this witness's evidence live and

15 focused, because there's also stuff in the -- certainly, the second part

16 of the statement as I would categorise it, which isn't so important to

17 this case as it may have been to the Milosevic trial.

18 MR. HANNIS: I fully agree, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: And looking at it broadly, the first 11 pages or so

20 are probably unobjectionable as a written document -- in fact, on to maybe

21 the beginning -- the very top of page 12 where he's giving evidence of his

22 own -- from his own direct knowledge. But after that, it's very difficult

23 to disentangle fact from opinion and also work out exactly the basis for

24 the hearsay.

25 MR. HANNIS: I agree, Your Honour. It is certainly not the most

1 eloquent statement that you will see in this case. But we believe that

2 the hearsay portions that Mr. O'Sullivan objects about and that you have

3 some concern about, I believe, Your Honours, with direct and

4 cross-examination, we can help clarify many of those. I do not think they

5 are so inextricably intertwined that they cannot be sorted out by counsel

6 and the Court. In many or most of the cases where it's clear that it is

7 hearsay, he does identify his specific sources by name, such as Mr.

8 Mihajlovic or Mr. Mijatovic, Mr. Perisic.

9 He can and will explain some of the more general terms regarding

10 hearsay, where he says, my SDB sources. I think he will indicate that

11 those are two specific individuals. And my western sources, I think he

12 will be more specific about that. I agree -- but I would indicate that

13 the lay opinion evidence is not inadmissible if it regards matters within

14 common human experience and those -- the specific basis of those opinions

15 underlying the conclusion articulated.

16 Finally, Judge, I do agree with what you said about the last part

17 of the statement and I have gone through and identified --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: The last part, though, is about three-quarters of

19 it. It's the bulk of it.

20 MR. HANNIS: I would say that I have gone through -- you don't

21 have -- I guess I gave to Defence counsel yesterday B/C/S and English

22 versions with numbered paragraphs, 1 through 178. I have gone through and

23 identified some 23 paragraphs that I would propose to remove entirely for

24 some of the reasons that you and Mr. O'Sullivan expressed concerns about.

25 And another five where I would remove the last sentence because they are

1 in the nature of "in my view" or "in my opinion" I think this, and there's

2 no further explanation of the basis for that view or that opinion.

3 However, I think the rest of it is appropriate for you to consider

4 as written evidence. And with that statement and my efforts to clarify

5 some of the other things, I think that's the most efficient way to present

6 the bulk of his evidence.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you going to give us the list of these

8 paragraphs?

9 MR. HANNIS: I can read out the paragraphs right now.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: They're difficult for us to --

11 MR. HANNIS: And we can hand you the numbered copies now, too, if

12 you like.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we would need to see that, I think, with the

14 passages marked on them, without reading them out now. Can you give the

15 court officer a list of these?

16 MR. HANNIS: Okay.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: I've got two other questions for you.

18 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: One is, if we make you do this live, apart from the

20 introductory part, the first 11 pages or so, what's it going to do to your

21 time schedule?

22 MR. HANNIS: Even if -- Your Honour, I think we estimated five

23 hours. Even if you made me do the bulk of it live, I think it's going to

24 be less than that because I will try my best to cut it down. We're

25 already running way over this week and I want to get this witness done.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, but some of this could be important evidence

2 at this stage. There are things that we just have to take time with,

3 unfortunately.

4 The other question I have is this: Is Perisic likely to be a

5 witness in this case?

6 MR. HANNIS: Not at this stage, Your Honour, given his current

7 circumstances.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

9 MR. HANNIS: So would you like me to provide you a list? On there

10 I have not marked the paragraphs. I've only numbered them. I haven't

11 marked the ones I would like --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, we do need a list of these numbers. Is the

13 quickest way for you just to read it?

14 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay.

16 MR. HANNIS: In full, I would omit paragraphs 70, 71, 97 -- I'm

17 sorry.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah.

19 MR. HANNIS: 112, 119, 126, 130, 134, 136, 141, and 142, 159

20 through 170, and 172. And I would also omit the last sentence of

21 paragraph 97, the last paragraph of 116, the last sentence of 120, the

22 last sentence of 126 and 153.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Is this news to Mr. O'Sullivan?

24 MR. HANNIS: Yes, it is.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, okay.

1 MR. HANNIS: I regret I wasn't here last evening when you wanted

2 to address this issue.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE BONOMY: This should not be regarded as an indication of a

5 view because we haven't had a chance to look at these -- the statement

6 with these passages removed. But, Mr. Hannis, we think that you should in

7 any event produce a copy of this statement that omits all these passages,

8 and you should overnight undertake that task -- or, I suppose you could

9 wait until we wait a decision. But in any event, if it is a difficult

10 exercise, please wait until we make a decision. But if we do decide to do

11 it that way, we'd like a copy that omits all these passages.

12 We'll make a decision tomorrow morning. We should be in a

13 position to announce it when we come on to the bench. Thank you.

14 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: So we'll resume at 9.00 tomorrow.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.15 p.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Friday, the 10th day of

18 November, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.

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