1 Wednesday, 22 November 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, good afternoon. There are two matters I

6 would like to deal with before we proceed with the evidence.

7 A motion has been made to us to modify the Scheduling Order of the

8 15th of November, 2006, made on behalf of all accused and heartily

9 endorsed by the Prosecution. The Judges all hope that in years to come

10 you'll look back on the submissions in both the motion and the Prosecution

11 response and smile to yourselves. We hope that you all counsel have long

12 and healthy lives ahead of you, and we assure you that we have taken

13 account of your submissions yet again on this issue. But we take the

14 opportunity to remind you also of the periods available for intensive

15 preparation, both over the December and January break, at Easter, as we've

16 indicated, and also much later in the year. We are also happy to give you

17 an indication that we will be open to persuasion from time to time that

18 there should be a long weekend, perhaps even once a month, particularly in

19 months where there is not another break in the proceedings. So, for

20 example, February, March are months where we consider that may be an

21 appropriate course, depending on the progress we are making. But we

22 re-emphasise our reason for seeking to make further progress at this stage

23 is the availability of courtroom space, the need to ensure a fair and

24 expeditious trial, and the sure and certain knowledge that at some stage

25 later in this trial there will be interruptions and we have to have spare

1 capacity in the tank to deal with these.

2 We have previously also made it clear to you that we accept that,

3 for example, when you get towards the end of the Prosecution case there

4 will inevitably be hiccups that we have to accommodate to ensure that the

5 case is tied together adequately. But in exchange for recognising that,

6 we hope that you will appreciate the need for added effort when there is

7 time available to build up that reserve that will be in everybody's

8 long-term interests.

9 So we have decided to refuse the motion.

10 The other matter that I can deal with now, I think, is protective

11 measures for Witness K56. This -- the Chamber is entirely satisfied that

12 there have to be additional trial-related protective measures and entirely

13 satisfied that these must include a means of concealing the identity of

14 the witness. Voice and image distortion would appear, on the face of it,

15 to be adequate except for certain parts of the evidence. And it may be

16 that there are certain parts where it is felt that the content of the

17 evidence itself would sufficiently identify the witness and thus put him

18 at risk.

19 So unless, Mr. Hannis, you have anything more to submit on this,

20 what we would propose is putting in place voice and image distortion and

21 inviting you to apply for private session as necessary in the course of

22 the evidence. Is that acceptable?

23 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, yes we understand that -- and it may be

24 a matter that we have to judge as we go along to see whether or not it

25 works that way. It's the kind of witness who we may have to go in and out

1 often.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

3 MR. HANNIS: And I know sometimes that's cumbersome. But I take

4 your point, we want to be in public as much as we can, as often as we can.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: The other option, but we don't favour this, is to

6 have it in closed session, then review it and decide whether the bulk of

7 it can be made public. But the practice of the Tribunal appears to be to

8 involve -- appears to involve consulting a witness about the change in the

9 status of his evidence at a later stage, and that's something we would

10 like to avoid having to do. We would rather put in place adequate

11 measures from the outset of the witness's evidence.

12 MR. HANNIS: We will try and -- we will try and deal with that,

13 Your Honour.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

15 MR. HANNIS: And we had also requested a new pseudonym for this

16 witness.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, yes, that will also be granted.

18 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

19 May I say one thing in regard to your first decision on that

20 motion?

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.

22 MR. HANNIS: November is a month where we don't otherwise have a

23 break and would you consider the possibility of a day off this month?

24 JUDGE BONOMY: And I recognise that you'll have the support of at

25 least six parties for that, but it's just a pity it comes that bit too

1 late, Mr. Hannis.

2 MR. HANNIS: Well, I say that half in jest, Your Honour, but half

3 seriously as well in anticipation of our available witnesses in the coming

4 week and the fact that we had -- in part it's a knock-on effect from

5 Mr. Tanic, whose cross-examination was so long, and understandably so.

6 But General DZ was intended to be the first witness this week for two

7 days, but because he had to be somewhere else Wednesday we had to send him

8 back and he cannot return until the 4th of December, which, all other

9 things considered, we are going to have some problems next week, I think,

10 unless one other matter, a witness we had subpoenaed back in October,

11 Mr. Sladjan Markovic we will be submitting to your Court -- to Your

12 Honours a report on our efforts to try and get him served with a subpoena

13 and here. And that's been another hole in our schedule because of that.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: I note what you say, Mr. Hannis, but this is also a

15 very serious point. If you actually sit down and look at the time that we

16 have allocated for the presentation of the Prosecution case and try to

17 work out when it is likely to end, you will be surprised, I suspect --

18 perhaps you've already done it, but if you haven't done it, I invite you

19 to do so because you may well be surprised by how long it will take.

20 There are still indeterminate elements in the time allocated. There's

21 also, of course, the question, if you do make speedier-than-anticipated

22 progress, whether you may be able to introduce more evidence in support of

23 aspects that you feel have perhaps not come up to expectation.

24 So there are many good reasons, I think, for getting our heads

25 down at the moment and keeping going, knowing that we can later

1 accommodate particular requirements that arise.

2 Now, Ms. Kravetz, the next witness.

3 MS. KRAVETZ: Good afternoon, Your Honours. The next Prosecution

4 witness is Dr. Helge Brunborg. Dr. Brunborg is our demographic expert.

5 His evidence is primarily relevant to paragraphs 19 and 81 of the

6 indictment.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Dr. Brunborg.

10 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to

12 speak the truth by reading aloud the document now placed before you.

13 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

14 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

16 Ms. Kravetz.

17 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 WITNESS: HELGE BRUNBORG

19 Examination by Ms. Kravetz:

20 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Could you please state your full name

21 for the record and spell your last name.

22 A. My full name is Helge Brunborg. My last name Brunborg is spelled

23 B-r-u-n-b-o-r-g.

24 Q. Thank you. Since we are going to be speaking the same language

25 today, I'm going to ask you to pause after every question to allow the

1 interpreters sufficient time to do the translation.

2 Mr. Brunborg, you are of Norwegian nationality. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What is your profession?

5 A. I am a demographer, a researcher in demography.

6 Q. Could you briefly describe your educational background for the

7 Court.

8 A. I have studied mathematics, statistics and economics at the

9 university of Oslo with something similar to masters degree, and I have a

10 PhD in economics from University of Michigan specialising in demography.

11 Q. Where you employed, Mr. Brunborg?

12 A. I'm employed by Statistics Norway in Oslo.

13 Q. What is Statistics Norway?

14 A. That is the government institution for statistics of Norway.

15 Q. Thank you. Your CV --

16 MS. KRAVETZ: Which is, Your Honours, Exhibit P2503.

17 Q. -- sets out in full detail your academic and profession

18 backgrounds and activities and your publications. We are not going to go

19 through all of that today. I would just like to focus on some aspects of

20 your professional background.

21 Could you tell us about your experience in the field of demography

22 applied to conflict situations?

23 A. I started to work here in June 1997 on a sort of trial basis

24 because the Tribunal felt there was a need for somebody who is

25 professionally in the area of demography and population statistics, and I

1 looked at the -- especially at the demographic consequences of the war in

2 Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1992 and 1995. So I worked until the end of 1998

3 as a consultant.

4 Since then, one or two years after I left, a permanent position

5 was established for that kind of job and a permanent office to do

6 demographic work and population statistics. And I have also since then

7 become interested in this field from scientific point of view and

8 initiated a Working Group under the International Union for the Scientific

9 Study of Population. The Working Group was called the Demography of

10 Conflict and Violence. It has later been continued and changed its name

11 into the demography of armed conflicts, and we have arranged seminars and

12 published journals and a book soon coming out.

13 Q. Thank you. Have you previously testified as an expert witness in

14 this Tribunal in other cases?

15 A. Yes, three times.

16 Q. In which cases did you testify?

17 A. Krstic, Blagojevic, and Milosevic, although the last testimony was

18 interrupted because of poor health. So there was no -- it was not

19 continued nor completed.

20 Q. I understand. Other than your participation as an expert witness

21 in these cases and your preparation of the report that deals with Kosovo

22 which is the subject of your testimony here today, have you been otherwise

23 engaged in work in the Balkans in your field of demography?

24 A. Well, I am involved in a project in Albania to advise on

25 modernising the civil status system, the system for registering population

1 and events. So my -- I'm advising on that project from a distance from

2 Oslo. I never lived in Albania. I go there once or twice a year for a

3 few days.

4 Q. Now, I know you prepared your CV some time ago. Do you want to

5 provide any additional updates to your CV, either regarding current

6 activities that you're carrying out in your work in Oslo or recent

7 publications that you have been involved in?

8 A. I guess the only thing I should mention is that I'm now in charge

9 of a very large survey in Norway called generations and gender programme,

10 as part of an international programme, where people from age 18 to 79 are

11 interviewed about aspects of life, work, births, employment, et cetera.

12 And I've also published then the journals that I mentioned and a book is

13 coming out soon on conflict demography.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, I seek to tender Dr. Brunborg's CV at

16 this time. This is Exhibit P2503.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

18 MS. KRAVETZ:

19 Q. Now, Dr. Brunborg, in 2002 you were asked by the Office of the

20 Prosecution to prepare a report on the size and composition, ethnic

21 composition, of Kosovo prior to the conflict, the 1999 conflict. Is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. Could you briefly explain how you went about to gather your data

25 to prepare this report.

1 A. Well, I was provided first with -- by the OTP by a report by UNFPA

2 and some French demographers on the survey conducted in Kosovo in 1999 and

3 2000. Secondly, I searched internet. Thirdly, I went to the library of

4 Statistics Norway, which happens to have a very good collection of

5 statistics on the former Yugoslavia. So that's where I -- actually, in

6 the basement of Statistics Norway was where I found most of the

7 information I needed.

8 Q. Before submitting this report to the Office of the Prosecution,

9 was it subjected to peer review?

10 A. Not strictly speaking, but I had several colleagues read it and

11 comment upon it. Actually, three Norwegian colleagues, one Dutch, and one

12 Serbian colleague.

13 Q. And did the Office of the Prosecution have any input as to the

14 conclusions of your report?

15 A. Not at all. But they did read and provided some sort of editorial

16 advice, since English is not my first language.

17 Q. Now, could you briefly summarise the conclusions of your report on

18 the size and ethnic composition of Kosovo for the Court.

19 A. Well, the problem, as I see it, is that there are no good data for

20 Kosovo, especially for the Albanian population. The Albanian population

21 boycotted the 1991 census. There was no census since then. There was one

22 in 2001, but that is after the period -- I was asked to look only at the

23 population development until 1998. And so there are data on births and

24 deaths but not on migration, which is a very important factor to determine

25 the population size and composition. So the most important source of

1 information then was the -- what I will call the French UN survey, a

2 sample survey, which asked people in households in Kosovo whether somebody

3 had moved away from the household in their last years and whether they had

4 come back. So that gave an estimate of the absent population or absent

5 household members.

6 In addition, since in my -- also there were complete households

7 that left. An estimate was made of the difference in population size if

8 there had been no out migration from Kosovo. By comparing the 1981

9 population size and the Blayo -- that is the French demographer, he was

10 the first author of that report, I will refer to it as the Blayo report,

11 if that is all right. They also gave an estimate of the population in

12 1999 and 1998. So the difference between a hypothetical population

13 without any out migration and the recorded population in 1998, could then

14 be ascribed to out migration. And since they had asked about when people

15 left, they got a distribution of out migration for each year from 1981 to

16 1998, and in that way they got the population size.

17 Q. Thank you. You said the French demographers had conducted a

18 sample survey. How were they -- if you're aware, how were they able to

19 determine whether the sample that they had taken was representative of the

20 estimated population of Kosovo?

21 A. Well, it was an area sample survey and they drew randomly -- they

22 sampled some -- I think it was 34 rural areas and a number of urban areas.

23 Within each of these, they sampled some small -- a smaller area and

24 interviewed everybody in those areas, every person, every household. They

25 also -- but a sample survey cannot give total population size, of course.

1 But then they compared that to a UNHCR survey, that is the High

2 Commissioner for Refugees, survey where they had asked village

3 administrators, that was in November 1999, I believe, about the population

4 size in each. And they found that, on average, the French sample survey

5 constituted 2 and a half per cent of the total population. And in that

6 way, they could get estimates of the total population in 1999, the fall of

7 1999, 1st of November, in fact, and then they could backtrack, project

8 backwards the population as of the 1st of October, 1998, which was before

9 the conflict, and that was what I was asked to look at, the population

10 until 1998, considering then population growth in the period and those who

11 might -- out migrated from Kosovo in late 1998 and the first half of 1999.

12 Q. Are you aware of how this French survey was funded. Who sponsored

13 and who funded this survey?

14 A. It was funded by UNFPA, that is the United Nations Fund for

15 Population Activities, and IOM, International Organisation for Migration,

16 and operationally I also received some assistance from the Kosovo

17 Institute of Statistics -- and the French demographers served as advisors

18 in designing questionnaire, data entry, and analysis.

19 Q. And who conducted --

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I just ask you. Can I ask you two questions

21 about this. I hadn't understood part of your previous answer where you

22 said that they compared that to a UNHCR survey in November 1999 about the

23 population size in each and they found that on average the French sample

24 survey constituted 2 and a half per cent of the total population.

25 What does that mean?

1 THE WITNESS: Well, if you draw a sample -- if I go out and

2 every -- interview every people in every fifth house in The Hague, I will

3 get a sample of persons, a sample population, but I don't -- I would need

4 to know the total population to know the percentage of -- that has been

5 sampled.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: So, in other words, they sampled 2 and a half

7 per cent of the total population?

8 THE WITNESS: Yes.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that the position?

10 THE WITNESS: Yes. And then they used that to estimate the total

11 population.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that.

13 The second question I have is related to it. In your report on

14 the second page when you're dealing with the UNHCR estimate, you

15 say: "They also made a de jure estimate for 1998 as an extrapolation of

16 the 1991 census population."

17 Now, if the census was boycotted, how did they do that?

18 THE WITNESS: Well, the federal -- the Institute of Statistics for

19 the former Yugoslavia made a projection from 1981 to 1991 because the

20 Albanians boycotted the population, taking into account the best estimates

21 they had on fertility and mortality rates and that was -- then became the

22 official estimate of the population of Kosovo for 1991.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: So that's the figure that was then used by UNHCR as

24 a starting point?

25 THE WITNESS: That is correct, yeah.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

2 Ms. Kravetz.

3 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you.

4 Q. Now, you had just explained that the French demographers helped to

5 design this survey. Did they collaborate with someone in Kosovo who

6 actually conducted this survey on the ground?

7 A. I don't know the details, but it says in the acknowledgements and

8 that they cooperated with the statistical office of Kosovo.

9 Q. Now, based on your experience, how reliable are the estimates

10 regarding the size of the population given in this French report?

11 A. Well, there are of course several degrees of uncertainty, but I

12 think in general it is quite reliable. But it's unreliable enough that

13 the demographers have -- they've given a range of the figure. They cannot

14 know exactly. They -- it says -- excuse me. I have to look it up.

15 Between 2.044 and 2.131 persons in Kosovo as of the 1st October 1998. So

16 there is a range due to, for example, the sampling variation.

17 Q. Okay. Did you -- apart from consulting this specific survey, did

18 you also look at other sources, specifically sources from the former

19 Yugoslavia, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

20 A. Yes. I looked at all the sources that I could find from the

21 federal institute of statistics, also called the federal statistical

22 office, previously the socialist federal statistical office, and their

23 estimates are very consistent with these other estimates from -- for the

24 1990s, and there's not much difference. There is a time trend and a more

25 or less continuous line from 1948 until 1998.

1 Q. Do you know what was the source data used by the federal statistic

2 office to draw up those numbers that you referred to in your report?

3 A. Yeah, basically two sources. One is the census, population

4 censuses, that were conducted in almost every year, 1948, 1951, 1961,

5 1971, 1981, and 1991, with some deficiency. And in addition, they have

6 the vital statistics, that is the number of births and deaths in each

7 year, which is recorded by the local offices and transferred to the main

8 office in Kosovo and Belgrade. That is the natural population growth.

9 So if you have -- in a year you have the population size given by

10 the census, and then you have the natural growth, that is the difference

11 between births and deaths, you can then accumulate and get, five years

12 later, population size, but except for migration. So then -- then either

13 you have to give an estimate of the migration or, if that is not

14 available, say, well, this is what we call the de jure population. Those

15 who left are included because many of them may be coming back. Maybe they

16 are only temporarily abroad for work.

17 Q. You referred to the de jure population. What is the difference

18 between de jure and de facto population?

19 A. De facto population is the number of people who are actually in

20 the country. De jure is those who are usually in the country.

21 Q. So I understand from your answer that the number -- estimates of

22 the federal statistics office are -- refer only to the de jure population?

23 A. Mostly, but not only, because they have also given some de facto

24 population estimates, are found in the tables. And I'm not quite sure how

25 they were arrived at, but they are generally 20 to 90.000 lower than the

1 de jure estimates.

2 Q. Were there other sources from the region that you consulted when

3 preparing your report?

4 A. Well, as I said, I searched internet also for unofficial sources

5 and I found something from federal institute -- no, federal secretariat of

6 information and some articles by individual authors and checked the

7 numbers and found generally, I'm sorry to say, that they were not very

8 reliable.

9 Q. Why are you saying that they were not reliable, these estimates?

10 A. Methodology was poor. There was no reference to sources, no

11 scientific basis.

12 Q. How did these estimates compare to the other ones that you had

13 consulted from the federal statistic office?

14 A. The ones by the federal secretariat of information, 1998, and also

15 by Grecic 1999 gave a number that was much, much lower for the population

16 size than the other numbers. In fact, only 1.4 million for 1998 versus,

17 excuse me, 2.2 or 2.1 by the federal statistical office. And it's not

18 conceivable that the population could have developed in that -- dropped so

19 fast in only one year or so.

20 Their reasoning was based on a comparison apparently between the

21 population development in developing countries -- in other countries, that

22 is Macedonia and Albania, saying, that, well, these Albanians developed in

23 the same way, but there's no -- there's no basis for making that

24 assumption.

25 Q. Okay --

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I just -- may I ask you one other question

2 about the federal statistical office figures.

3 You have your report in front of you, your original report?

4 THE WITNESS: Yes.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: If you look at the first page of that, in the

6 bottom paragraph you have certain estimates from that office. If you go

7 to the next page, in the second paragraph you talk there of the de facto

8 estimates for 1997 and 1998, and the first one you quote is the federal

9 statistics office figure. On the earlier paragraph, that figure of

10 2.188.000 appears as a de jure figure for 1997, and the de facto figure

11 appears to be 2.166 -- should the second paragraph on page 2 actually be

12 2.166.000?

13 THE WITNESS: It should be -- you're absolutely correct. That is

14 a misprint. I'm sorry. On the table on page 13, the de facto figure for

15 1997 is given by the FSO as 2.116 --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: 166?

17 THE WITNESS: Oh, maybe that is a -- 166, I did not see -- oh,

18 yeah, I need to check that, whether it is 2.166 or 2.116.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the other connected question I wish to ask

20 you relates to the year that this estimate was prepared. Is there a

21 footnote identifying the particular document from which these figures

22 come?

23 THE WITNESS: Yes, they all --

24 JUDGE BONOMY: I have a footnote 8, is that the one or --

25 THE WITNESS: They're all given on page 13.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Page 13, thank you.

2 THE WITNESS: In the right-hand column.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: So it's the 1998 version and, is that right, the

4 source is a 1998 document and it looks as though the figure should be

5 2.116?

6 THE WITNESS: That is correct.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. Thank you.

8 Ms. Kravetz.

9 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Dr. Brunborg, you have referred in your evidence to the issue of

11 migration and the impact of migration in calculating your estimates.

12 Could you just briefly explain how you dealt with the issue of out

13 migration from Kosovo when calculating the conclusions of your report, the

14 numbers that you give.

15 A. Well, I looked at the figures given by the Blayo, the French

16 demographer, and their distribution of migration by year, and actually it

17 was Chantal Blayo and her colleagues that used that to make an estimate of

18 the population size in 1998. They subtracted then an estimate of the

19 population in 1998/1999. So they distributed the migration -- actually,

20 over all the years, 1981 and forward, to give -- to be consistent with the

21 population figure in -- in theirs in 1999.

22 Q. And their source for this data was, again, the UNHCR --

23 A. It was their own survey but compared with the UNHCR headcount.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MS. KRAVETZ: Could we have the report up in e-court; it's P160.

1 And could we go to page 14 in the English and 15 in the B/C/S -- 196, I'm

2 sorry, I misspoke. 1960. Just to correct the transcript, it's P1960.

3 Could we zoom in on figure 2, yes, scroll down. There.

4 Q. Dr. Brunborg, we have here a figure of the total population of

5 Kosovo. Could you comment on what is illustrated here in this graph.

6 A. Well, first it shows a very rapid population growth since 1948;

7 and secondly, it gives both de jure and some de facto figures; and

8 thirdly, it gives several estimates for the last years. There is Islami

9 for 1995, and there's the UNHCR and Blayo and federal secretariat of

10 information for 1998.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MS. KRAVETZ: Could we now go to figure 4, which is on page 16 of

13 the English and 17 of the B/C/S version of the report. And could we --

14 yes, there. Thank you.

15 Q. This figure, Dr. Brunborg, relates to the ethnic composition of

16 the population. Could you briefly comment on what is illustrated here.

17 A. Well, it shows that the -- generally since 1950, the Albanian

18 proportion of the population has increased from between 60 and 70 per cent

19 to around 80 per cent in 1991 and that there is considerably variation for

20 1995 and 1998. But as I said, the federal secretariat of information

21 estimate is much -- is most likely to low and the Islami estimate is most

22 likely too high. So the UNHCR estimate is, most likely I would say, the

23 best one and it gives a slightly higher than 80 per cent Albanians, and

24 vice versa for the Serb population.

25 Q. Thank you. So the source that you relied on for your conclusions

1 on the ethnic composition of Kosovo, would that be the UNHCR report which

2 is illustrated here?

3 A. Yes, certainly.

4 Q. Thank you. Now, moving on to the addendum that you prepared with

5 regard to this report, could you give us the reasons for this addendum,

6 why you had to prepare it.

7 A. The Office of the Prosecutor asked me to write an addendum because

8 they had received new information from Belgrade on their request, I

9 believe, and so they asked me to look at it and write an addendum report.

10 Q. And what was this new information that you looked at to prepare

11 your addendum?

12 A. There was a letter from the federal Ministry of Justice, Federal

13 Republic of Yugoslavia, and a report from the federal statistics bureau of

14 2002 and a book with census results from 1993.

15 So I looked at all of this. The census results book I had seen

16 before, so that didn't add anything. I read the report. There was no new

17 data of interest here. There were -- because there was still no data on

18 migration. I was anxious to see hard data on migration and I wish there

19 were. But there wasn't any, so the conclusions were the same.

20 That report said more about population growth in Kosovo and the

21 other republics in the former Yugoslavia and compared and highlighted the

22 extraordinary nature of the Kosovo population, where fertility remained

23 high much longer than the other republics, high number of children per

24 woman, and the decline did not start there until the early 1990s, unlike

25 the other republics.

1 Q. Did these new sources that you consulted, did they have any impact

2 on the previous conclusions that you had given in your original report?

3 A. Not really. They underlined the uncertainty of the numbers for

4 Kosovo because of the boycott of the Albanian population in 1991, and all

5 censuses since then, and the lack of migration data. And it highlighted

6 the high population growth due to very high fertility in Kosovo.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, I wish to tender Dr. Brunborg's report

9 at this stage. This is P1960, and the addendum to this report P1961.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

11 MS. KRAVETZ: I have no further questions for this witness at this

12 stage.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

14 Mr. O'Sullivan.

15 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, the order will be: General Ojdanic,

16 General Pavkovic, General Lazarevic, General Lukic, Mr. Sainovic, and

17 Mr. Milutinovic.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

19 Mr. Visnjic.

20 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Visnjic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Brunborg, good afternoon. My name is

23 Tomislav Visnjic, Defence counsel for General Ojdanic. I'm going to ask

24 you a few questions linked to your work, your report, and I'm going to ask

25 you for some clarifications, which I would like to have with respect to

1 how you arrived at your conclusions and the data and information that you

2 used to compile the report.

3 From your introduction as well as from your biography, your CV, I

4 understood it that you are first and foremost an economist, judging by

5 your education, and then later on during your work you decided to focus on

6 demography. Am I right in saying that?

7 A. Well, actually, I think I would say I became a demographer during

8 my final studies of economics in Oslo, and I went to the United States to

9 pursue my interest in demography. But there was no demography programme

10 as such at the University of Michigan, so I had to take a PhD in economics

11 but specialising in demography. So I consider myself a demographer today

12 and a rather poor economist, I'm afraid.

13 Q. Thank you. Could you shortly explain to us what data a

14 demographer needs, which -- what data is indispensable for them to be able

15 to evaluate the exact percentage of populations in Kosovo in 1990 or at

16 any other year when there is no population census -- register and the last

17 population census was taken more than 20 years ago.

18 A. Well, then there is -- there are two ways of going about it. One

19 is to project the population from the last known -- the last date when the

20 population was known with accuracy. Projected by age and sex, taking

21 fertility rates into consideration, that is the number of births per

22 woman, and mortality, how many die who in each age, and, if available,

23 migration data. That is one way of going about it. The second is to do a

24 survey.

25 Ideally there should have been a census, but for many reasons that

1 was not done. A census is a very complicated and large undertaking and

2 cannot be done on short notice. So this sample survey that was

3 conducted -- funded by UNFPA and conducted by French demographer was an

4 attempt to get an estimate of the population.

5 Actually, in 1999 after the war, but then the data were collected

6 in such a way that it could also be used to estimate the population size

7 before the conflict started.

8 Q. If I've understood you correctly then there are three elements.

9 One would be the basic year from when you start your estimations; the

10 second would be data about births and deaths; and the third element would

11 be information and data about migration. Would those be the three basic

12 elements?

13 A. That is correct.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 A. But if I may add, migration -- there's always two streams, there's

16 out migration and in migration, sometimes combined into net migration.

17 Q. Yes, thank you. Yes, I said migration, but of course it would be

18 more precise to use both those in and out terms.

19 Now, since we're on the subject of population census, for

20 high-quality estimations of population to be carried out, the basic year

21 should be the year in which the population census was taken. Am I right?

22 A. Yes, correct.

23 Q. And as you yourself said in your report on page 4, chapter 3, of

24 your 2002 report, you said: "The most usual method for estimating the

25 number and composition of the population is to carry out a population

1 census and a census of the households."

2 And I would add to that that that would be the best method. Would

3 you agree with me there?

4 A. Certainly, yes.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness speak closer to the

6 microphones, please, for the interpreter. Thank you.

7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. As far as I was able to understand from what you said, the last

9 population census in Kosovo-Metohija was conducted in 1981. Am I right?

10 A. Well, there was one in 1991, but as I said, it was boycotted by

11 the Albanian population but not by other population groups. So there is

12 a -- there are partial estimates for 1991.

13 Q. So as far as 1991 is concerned, we, in fact, do not have a

14 population census; all we have is an estimate of the population. Would I

15 be right in saying that?

16 A. There are estimates of the total population, but there are counts

17 of non-Albanian population groups.

18 Q. Yes, I agree with you there. So that means that in the total

19 number, if we were to give the total number of the population, it is

20 nonetheless a percentage, because it is in two parts, the estimate part

21 and the actual count part. So the number is added to give us the

22 population sample and the estimate. Do we agree?

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. Thank you. Do you know of any case - I assume that we're dealing

25 with the 20th century - in which the population totally boycotted a

1 population census, either one part of the population boycotted it or some

2 other part boycotted it? If you take a look at Europe, can you quote any

3 example of that kind, because I see that according to your

4 curriculum vitae you carried out investigations of this kind in various

5 countries.

6 A. Well, the only case I can think of is Germany where there hasn't

7 been a population census for many years because for political resentment

8 of enumeration. So they are estimating the population in other ways.

9 There are more and more countries in Europe that do not conduct

10 censuses because -- either because there is some political resentment or

11 because they can get the information from other sources, like my own

12 country.

13 Q. When we say that, and if you mean Germany, do we mean the 1990s in

14 Germany when there were problems over the questionnaire? Is that what you

15 mean? Am I right there?

16 A. I think it was earlier, but I'm not quite sure. I think it was

17 earlier. I think the last census in Germany was in the 1975, was it? I'm

18 not quite sure about that, I'm afraid.

19 And the reason is the resentment against this -- what we could

20 call big brother; that is, the government wants to know too much about its

21 population. And that's why many people -- if many people are against it,

22 that weakens the quality of the census, of course.

23 Q. Thank you. Do you happen to know who, according to the population

24 census, according to the law in 1981 on the population census, had the

25 exclusive right to exert supervision and control over a population census

1 in Kosovo and Metohija?

2 A. Who? It is --

3 Q. Which organ, which body.

4 A. Well, I believe it was first the institute in office in Belgrade

5 and -- which delegated responsibility to each republic and autonomous

6 province. The census was carried out on the same day, same period, in all

7 six republics and two autonomous provinces, and basically the same

8 questionnaire.

9 Q. Would you perhaps agree with me if I tell you that the population

10 census in Kosovo and Metohija in 1981 and 1991 was under the exclusive

11 authority of Kosovo statistics, or rather, the provincial institute for

12 statistics of Kosovo, whereas the methodology, that is to say the forms

13 and questionnaires used, were prescribed by the federal institute. So the

14 census itself, the investigators, researchers, and other data were done in

15 the Kosovo institute for statistics. Do you happen to know that as a

16 fact?

17 A. I'm not -- I don't know the details, but I think your description

18 is more or less right. The questionnaire was designed in Belgrade, and

19 the survey was conducted in each republic. I'm mostly familiar with

20 Bosnia in this regard.

21 Q. And would you -- I see that in your answer here you say "in all

22 the republics." I might add all the republics and provinces, in view of

23 the fact that as far as Kosovo is concerned. I know that you don't

24 perhaps understand the difference in terms, but as far as Kosovo is

25 concerned, the gathering of data, control, and supervision of the material

1 and the results were fully processed by the local institute for

2 statistics, which was led by the local authorities, of course.

3 A. Yes, I'm fully aware that the two autonomous provinces, Vojvodina

4 and Kosovo and Metohija, had their own statistical offices and was given

5 responsibility for conducting the actual census operations.

6 Q. I'm sure you will agree with me when I say that in the absence of

7 official statistical data, the possibility for manipulation with the

8 number of inhabitants is fairly great. When I say "manipulation," I mean

9 political manipulation.

10 A. That is correct. If there are no data --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Would the witness please speak into the

12 microphone.

13 THE WITNESS: If there are no data, data can be manipulated, of

14 course, but there are ways of checking demographic data, whether they are

15 consistent and reasonable.

16 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. You said -- or, rather, you told the Court that you gathered

18 certain information and data from the UNHCR, if I remember, and also

19 from -- and also those relating to the period after 1999.

20 Now, my question is this: Do you know that the Assembly of Kosovo

21 enacted a law on population census in August 2003, already then, but that

22 nothing has been done since about that? Do you know about that?

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic, what's the relevance of that?

24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the relevance of that

25 question is in the following. There are methods in existence in

1 demography - and I think the expert can help us out here - on the basis of

2 which -- on the basis of later data you can compare earlier data and then

3 find a mean, an average. So there was nothing against -- it's nothing

4 against the Assembly of Kosovo and nothing topical. It was just a

5 technical attempt to calculate a piece of information, a piece of data.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: So what? Even if it's right. This evidence is

7 about what the actual position was in 1998, not about whether it ought to

8 have been sorted out since.

9 I'm not following the relevance of the fact that there is a way of

10 working things out later. Let's concentrate on what matters here. Even

11 the very question of who conducted the -- or who were responsible

12 administratively for the conduct doesn't appear to me to be relevant.

13 Let's focus the cross-examination, please.

14 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I'll put the

15 question this way.

16 Q. Mr. Brunborg, is it true that not even after 1999 to the present

17 day there are authentic data of the Kosovo statistical system about the

18 number, the precise number, of inhabitants in Kosovo, although that system

19 is being helped out by various experts nowadays?

20 A. I have not followed this in detail, so I'm not aware -- I'm not

21 aware of any census in Kosovo after -- or any other new data, that is

22 correct, but I don't know the details.

23 Q. In your report you conclude that the population of Kosovo in the

24 period prior to the 1998/1999 conflict was between 2 and 2.2 million

25 inhabitants, and that is the 12th of September, 2003, report. Am I right

1 in saying that? Paragraph 1 of the report.

2 A. That is correct.

3 Q. And from your report of the 14th of August, 2002, you conclude

4 that in 1998 in Kosovo there were 1.7 million Albanians, about 200.000

5 Serbs, and about 140.000 members of other ethnic groups. Am I right? And

6 that's on page 2 of your report.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, did you perhaps consult the UNMIK report on population for

9 the year 2000 on the basis of the lists for the elections?

10 A. No, I didn't. I was not aware and I did not look for sources that

11 far into the future because I was only asked to look at the population in

12 1998 -- before 1998.

13 Q. I agree with you. However, you also did expertise in 2002 and

14 2003. Now, had you known about those data from the electoral lists, would

15 you have used them? Would you have taken them into consideration?

16 A. Well, I worked with electoral lists for other countries, and they

17 give you on an individual basis name and date of birth, et cetera, of all

18 the voters eligible. I don't really see how I could have used those lists

19 to reconstruct the population of Kosovo in 1998 if there was nothing on

20 when -- about whether these voters had left the country or not, or

21 returned.

22 Q. But a moment ago we weren't discussing the fact that what you did

23 have as a basis, as your groundwork for 1998 and 1999, was also an

24 estimation. So what you're telling me now, whether certain voters went

25 out to vote, left the country, returned or not, that's also an estimation,

1 but at least we have a fixed list as opposed to the data we didn't have

2 previously; that is to say, the 2000 list.

3 A. Yes, but I believe that a voters' list does not usually contain

4 information about immigration or emigration, so I don't see how it could

5 have been used.

6 Q. Well, I'm asking you that for two reasons, first because in your

7 previous work you used the electoral lists, the voting lists, and the

8 other expertise that you did before this court; and secondly, because it

9 seems to me that the voting lists are more reliable from the different

10 estimations, especially as you in your report on page 1 of your 2003

11 report said yourself that you had the chance of seeing new material which

12 emphasised the great unreliability of the population data for Kosovo.

13 A. Now, there's one strong weakness of voters' lists. One is that it

14 only includes people who registered to vote; and secondly, it does not

15 include people under the age of 18 usually. So it would give a very

16 partial view of the population.

17 Q. I agree with you on that point, but at least for this category it

18 is fairly precise. Wouldn't you agree?

19 A. It is not precise for 1998. It may be precise for 2002 or

20 whatever, but not for a previous year. It's a snap-shot in time.

21 Q. Do you know that on the basis of the data from the 2000 elections,

22 UNMIK assessed that in the year 2000 the number of inhabitants of Kosovo

23 was 2.105.000, and that according to a survey the demographic, social, and

24 reproductive situation in Kosovo conducted by the United Nations, that is

25 the UNPHA, which was probably the United Nations population fund, the

1 number of inhabitants assessed for 2000 was roughly 1.9 to 2.2 million, of

2 which 88 per cent are Albanians, 7 per cent are Serbs, and 5 per cent

3 others. Do you know about those facts and figures?

4 A. I'm sorry, I don't.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: One interesting feature from these, Mr. Brunborg,

6 is the 1.9 to 2.2 million is fairly consistent with our own figure.

7 However, the estimate of Serb and other percentage of the population is,

8 on the face of it, significantly lower. Is that right?

9 THE WITNESS: Yes, but --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: And this, of course, is after traumatic events in

11 1999.

12 THE WITNESS: Exactly that is what I would have liked to add

13 myself. We know about the first, the large migration streams of Albanians

14 in 1999, and later of Serbs from Kosovo. So that the figures are somewhat

15 different in 2002 is no surprise at all. In fact, as you observed, Your

16 Honour, I thought that the figures were remarkably consistent with the

17 previous estimates.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Are we going somewhere particular with this,

19 Mr. Visnjic, that's going to illuminate the question of the population

20 prior to 1999?

21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it was not my intention

22 to show that the ratio of the population before and after -- to show it

23 before 1999 and after 1999.

24 Q. But I wanted to ask the witness what you asked him as well,

25 whether he would agree with me that this estimate for the year 2000, if it

1 is problematic, whether he would agree with me that it was compiled by

2 experts, UNMIK experts on the spot, working on location, who had direct

3 sources, as opposed to the sources that you used which were, to a certain

4 extent, indirect. Would you agree with me there?

5 A. Well, as I said, I have no information about the collection of the

6 voters' list data, but generally the voters' list are compiled in a

7 completely different way, usually by voters coming to centres to register.

8 And there are many people who don't come, and the methodology is so

9 different that it's difficult to compare, usually, the estimates.

10 Q. Did I understand you correctly: Are you saying to us here that in

11 fact this UNMIK estimate on the basis of the voters' lists is less

12 relevant, in view of the difficulties you have presented?

13 A. It is less relevant, but it's still surprisingly close to the

14 other estimates.

15 Q. Thank you. Now -- in fact, Mr. Brunborg, let me ask you

16 directly: Did you, in fact, in gathering this data use direct data from

17 Kosovo statistics or, rather, the present institute for statistics of

18 Kosovo or the previous provincial institute for statistics of Kosovo?

19 Which of the two?

20 A. No, I used only data that were published by the institute in

21 Belgrade for all of the country, and they have received, I believe, some

22 of the data from Kosovo.

23 Q. And do you know that from 1997, data from Kosovo were not relayed

24 back to the institute, but that the Kosovo statistic institute continued

25 its work in future years and continued working after 1999? And later on

1 they were joined by experts from the United Nations and reinforced that

2 way?

3 A. I'm aware of that, yes.

4 Q. Do you know that UNMIK made some estimates according to the

5 municipalities for 1998, 1999, and 2000?

6 A. No.

7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] May we have on e-court 3D422,

8 please. It is a municipal breakdown, Your Honour, it shows municipalities

9 in Kosovo by the OSCE Mission for Kosovo. Here it is. It is the

10 municipal profile, Pristina, page 2, please, which shows us a table.

11 [In English] Page 2, please.

12 [Interpretation] Yes, may we zoom in on the table.

13 Q. But when we come to the last column, total, one-but-last column,

14 total --

15 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Zoom down, please. Further up the

16 document. The table above. Thank you.

17 Q. We're looking at the ethnic composition data for Pristina

18 municipality from which we have the figures for 1991, 1998, and estimates

19 for February 2000.

20 What is your demographic explanation, Mr. Brunborg, of the almost

21 double -- the fact that the municipality inhabitants in Pristina have more

22 than doubled in the space of those few years?

23 JUDGE BONOMY: What's the relevance of that question, Mr. Visnjic?

24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the relevance of that

25 question is to establish the influence of migration on the number of

1 the -- number of inhabitants, and I need an expert opinion to see how far

2 migration can affect the overall assessment and figures for the

3 municipality and inhabitants.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well --

5 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] This is not -- we have three

6 elements here. We have a census, we have the number of births and deaths,

7 and migration, the three elements we've talked about. Now we have gone on

8 to the third element, which is migration, and I'd like to hear the

9 witness's opinion about the possible explanations for the effect of

10 migration on the total population.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: I find it, I have to say, very difficult to see the

12 relevance of events -- or figures for February 2000, which is what you're

13 looking at, which is a period after the traumatic events that we're

14 dealing with. But let's see where --

15 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps I can make

16 myself clearer and perhaps the witness can help me. What I'm actually

17 trying to say is this: Not even for 1998 was it possible to make any -

18 how shall I put this? I'm trying to find the right word - serious

19 prognosis, serious estimate of the number of inhabitants because the data

20 available were extremely small, the sample was extremely small, for it to

21 be able to provide any correct framework, or, rather, everything we obtain

22 are in fact estimations. They cannot be considered to be exact figures.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we better hear if the witness can assist in

24 any way by reference to these figures.

25 Mr. Brunborg.

1 THE WITNESS: Two observations. First, if these numbers are

2 correct, then there has been incredibly high migration in two years, 1998

3 to 2000; but secondly, it says in the footnotes to the table that the 1998

4 population estimate excludes forced displacement. And so it could be that

5 the Pristina population already in 1998 included lots of people who had

6 been forced to leave their usual residence.

7 That's all I can say. I've never seen this before.

8 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. And this estimate excluding forced displacement was the UNHCR

10 assessment that you used, estimate that you used?

11 A. Well, the French demographer used that. The report doesn't say

12 whether the -- to my knowledge, whether it was included or not, the forced

13 displacement in that report.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic, the UNHCR material was for 1998, I

15 think, and this one's for the 9th of March, 1999.

16 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour. The

17 OSCE estimate. I just wanted to show this to the witness and ask him if

18 he included this information in his own report, whether he processed this

19 material when he made his own estimations.

20 THE WITNESS: Well, the estimates were not made by me. I

21 interpreted the estimates, but if the estimates are for the whole country,

22 it doesn't matter whether displaced migration or -- is included or not

23 because it's minus in one area and plus in another area of the country.

24 So for the total population, it doesn't really matter.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm -- it's not clear to me, Mr. Visnjic, but

1 perhaps it should be. Are you contesting the estimate of the population

2 as immediately prior to the war as estimated by the witness?

3 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, no. I'm just trying to

4 establish whether the witness had enough data and information to provide

5 us with what he has given us. Or I'm challenging everything, in other

6 words, until the witness shows me that he used all this data in compiling

7 his report and telling us what he's telling us.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic, we're not happy that this should

10 continue. We think that time is not being productively used at all here

11 at the moment. Unless there's a particular issue you want the witness to

12 address, then we think you should bring your cross-examination to a close.

13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I do have questions, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what are they about, Mr. Visnjic?

15 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] They are about, Your Honour, the

16 report 2002, page 8, paragraphs 2, 3, and 4, and the estimates for the

17 migration that the witness quotes in his report.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, let us hear what your first question is.

19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Well, it's like this:

20 Q. In your report - and I'm referring to the last -- or, rather, the

21 last paragraph of page 7 and the first three on page 8, you says that --

22 you said that migration was between 15.900 and 911000. 911.000.

23 THE INTERPRETER: 159.000; interpreter's correction.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: It's the first full paragraph on page 8, third --

25 fourth last line.

1 Now, what's the question, Mr. Visnjic.

2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Well, I'd like the witness, as an

3 expert, to explain to me and to give me his expert opinion on the value of

4 these estimates, since they differ six times over, compared to the

5 estimate of 159.000, and this other estimate, where it is estimated that

6 the number is 911.000, 911.000 people who migrated.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Where is the 159.000 figure?

8 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] The last paragraph, Your Honour.

9 [In English] "The difference between this figure and the estimate

10 for population on 1st of October, 1998, amounting to between 159.000."

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Brunborg, may you --

12 THE WITNESS: May I answer?

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, please.

14 THE WITNESS: On the third paragraph at page 8, it says that the

15 estimate of the migration is between -- from 1981 to 1998 is between

16 159.000 and 246.000. In the previous paragraph it says that is between

17 611 and 911.000, but that includes 1999. It's from 1981 to 1999. And as

18 we all know, there was very heavy out migration, especially in the first

19 half of 1999, due to the escalation of the conflict. And the uncertainty

20 refers particularly to the number of out migrants in that period, and

21 that's why -- that is why there's much more uncertainty about migration in

22 1999 than in the previous years. And also then the migration for the,

23 let's say, 17-year period, 1981 to 1998, is much smaller than the 18-year

24 period in 1981 to 1999. So I think this is consistent. These figures are

25 absolutely consistent and logical.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: In that main paragraph there you talk about the

2 UNHCR 1999 estimate. Now, is that something different from what you were

3 talking of at the beginning of the report when you first refer to the

4 UNHCR figures? That's on page 2 in the third-last paragraph, where you

5 talk about an estimate for 1998.

6 THE WITNESS: The -- I have to -- this is confusing even to me, so

7 I need to be absolutely certain.

8 The UNHCR has two estimates. One is for 1998, which is a

9 projection of the 1991 population is 2.188.817 people. The second

10 estimate is a headcount made in -- later for 1999, August 1999, which is

11 1.560.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

13 Mr. Visnjic.

14 THE WITNESS: -- million people.

15 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. So if I've understood you correctly, in this estimate of the

17 600 -- from 611 to 911.000, this includes 1999 as well. Am I right?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. And if we now subtract the period from 1981 to 1998 - and I just

20 leave 1999 - then I will obtain the figure of about, depending on what

21 data you use, between 450 to 550.000 people migrating in 1999. Is that

22 right? Is that what you're saying now?

23 A. I didn't do the calculation, but I trust you all do that during

24 this, so ...

25 Q. I wanted to ask you because I'm not very strong in arithmetic.

1 Perhaps you could help me.

2 A. Well, the problem is that there are ranges given for all of these

3 figures, low and high estimates, so really you have to be very careful

4 when you subtract that you get -- you subtract in the right way, but it's

5 probably not -- it's probably correct.

6 Q. Now if I look at 1999 now, when you tell me the -- when you say

7 the number of migrations, does that imply what you told me earlier on,

8 emigration and immigration?

9 A. Well, you have to specify -- we have to point to the specific

10 sentence. It's usually -- here it is usually net migration, which is out

11 migration minus in migration, but some estimate could concern only out

12 migration. In a war situation, we talk about refugees, which is obviously

13 out migration.

14 Q. All I wanted to ask you is this: If this data is correct and if

15 we assume that this period was calculated for 1999 and if we agree that it

16 was between 450.000 and 550.000 people, then what does this figure contain

17 methodologically speaking? Does it include people who left Kosovo or who

18 returned to Kosovo or quite simply can you explain what that figure

19 represents, how did you arrive at that number, regardless of whether it's

20 correct or not, but what does it mean? What does the number actually

21 signify?

22 A. I think there was also an -- attempts to estimate the return

23 migration. Yes, when the survey was done by the French demographers and

24 UNFPA, they asked whether there were members of the household who had been

25 absent and including those who had returned. So these are net migration

1 because they -- they asked how many had left, if anybody absent, and when

2 they left, and if somebody returned. So both -- both numbers can be

3 estimated, depending on the focus and the interest.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, on that note, we will break. We need a

5 20-minute break at this stage, and we hope to return to greater focus.

6 Could you meanwhile, Mr. Brunborg, leave with the usher, who will

7 show you where to wait during the break.

8 THE WITNESS: May I take my papers with -- notes with me?

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, please.

10 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

11 [The witness stands down]

12 JUDGE BONOMY: And we'll resume at five minutes past 4.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.

15 [The witness takes the stand]

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.

17 MR. VISNJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Brunborg, the way I understood the

19 methodology or the way used by the French demographers, which was used by

20 them for one of their surveys, they used the sample method. Am I right in

21 concluding that?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. The sample was based on the population's presence on the spot. Am

24 I correct?

25 A. It was a three-stage sample so they first selected areas and then

1 later interviewed everybody in a given area.

2 Q. As you explained to me just before the break, you assume that the

3 figure corresponds to net migration. That's the way I understand it, and

4 I apologise if I was wrong.

5 A. Yes, because, as I said, they recorded absent household members

6 and subtracted those who were -- had returned. That's my understanding

7 also, but both numbers can be calculated.

8 Q. Their survey reflects the situation at that moment, the situation

9 in the field. Am I correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Therefore, it did not envisage a situation which -- well, first of

12 all, when was it conducted?

13 A. It was conducted in November 1999 and February 2000.

14 Q. If a person left Kosovo and then returned before February 1999 --

15 sorry, November 1999, that person would not have been recorded as part of

16 this survey. Am I correct in concluding that?

17 A. No. It would be recorded as somebody who had been away and

18 included in the out migration streams from Kosovo and then again be

19 included in the population count as of November 1999. Because there is a

20 question in the survey about the usual members and whether someone has

21 been away and whether somebody is absent at the time of the survey.

22 Q. I'm asking you this: If a person had left Kosovo after September

23 1998 and returned before January 1999, since the census or the survey was

24 done in November 1999, would that person have been included in this survey

25 as an -- as a person who emigrated?

1 A. I need to check. First they ask whether the person was present on

2 the 1st of October, 1998, and they ask about for each household person

3 whether the person is present or temporarily absent. And they ask for

4 absent persons. They ask how long did he or she stay away, number of

5 months, number of years.

6 Q. It is still unclear to me. Can you address my specific question,

7 please. If the person left Kosovo after September 1998 -- well, let me

8 put it this way. After the 1st of October, 1998, and returned to Kosovo

9 before January 1999, would that person be recorded as part of the survey

10 as someone who emigrated?

11 A. Well, he would be recorded by somebody who had been absent and had

12 returned. So he would be included in the gross migration flow from Kosovo

13 in 1998 or 1999, depending on when the person left.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: He would also -- that person would also be recorded

15 as being present on the 1st of October, 1998, which was the first

16 question.

17 THE WITNESS: Yes.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: So on the face of it they would not be part of a

19 net migration?

20 THE WITNESS: That is correct.

21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. The results we discussed at the beginning, this being the figures

23 of 600 -- excuse me. 900.000 -- I'm just trying to find the exact figure.

24 600.000 and 900.000, or rather, as we calculated, between 450 and 550.000

25 of those who emigrated in 1999 that would be net migration, if I

1 understand it correctly?

2 A. Yes, I think so -- well, no. It says left Kosovo so that is

3 left -- so that is gross out of migration.

4 Q. Maybe I'm not sufficiently clear. The estimates of migration, say

5 the 911.000 figure is that gross or net in terms of estimate? That is my

6 question.

7 A. Sorry, I'm also not so clear. That must be net. The authors of

8 the French report are -- I'm sorry, are not so clear on this, but this

9 must be net migration, since it's the result of a difference between

10 different population figures. So that's the net.

11 Q. If that is correct, based on your overall knowledge, what would be

12 your expert opinion as to the value or weight of these estimates if,

13 according to the issues just discussed, there are 450 or 550.000 people

14 who appear as being the figure pertaining to net migration from Kosovo and

15 this survey was conducted in November 1999?

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I have to say, Mr. Visnjic, that I don't

17 understand that figure of 450 to 550.000. So perhaps you or the witness

18 could illuminate that point for me.

19 THE WITNESS: If I may, Your Honour, I did do the arithmetics in

20 the intermission and the break, and I found that the -- in 1999 the net

21 migration was between 452.000 and 665.000 by subtracting the total

22 migration in the 18-year period 1981 to 1999, so roughly half a million.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. You've assisted me with the exact figures, 452 to 665.000. Does

1 that tally with this possibility, that between the 1st of November, 1999,

2 and February 2000 when your first estimate was given, does it still mean

3 that the most part of these people, the figure between 452 and the 665.000

4 people were still in Kosovo but left after 1998?

5 A. That's my interpretation of these figures, yes.

6 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I know I am trying your

7 patience, but I will try to be quick with the next exhibit and it is

8 3D423. It is Urosevac municipality.

9 Q. Mr. Brunborg, I wanted to ask you to comment a piece of

10 information which states that as of October 1999 the population in

11 Urosevac was 96.967. The next estimate was for the year 2000, amounting

12 to 140 -- it is the second page. It is 143.845. Here as well we have

13 extreme migration, it seems, for the period of only a few months. In

14 Exhibit 3D424, in which case we are discussing Vucitrn municipality, the

15 case appears to be the same. It also refers to the year 1999, the figure

16 is 97.723; for the year 2000, 102.662. And then the next Defence

17 Exhibit 3D421 concerning Podujevo municipality, the figure is 122.000 in

18 1999, and 131.300 in 2000.

19 Mr. Brunborg, this is data for Pristina and surrounding -- the

20 surrounding municipalities. Why did I focus on these --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic, the last one you gave was 122.000,

22 compared with, you said, 131.300. Now that's not a figure on the screen;

23 125.968 is on the screen.

24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment. You are correct,

25 Your Honour.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that the figure we should be paying attention

2 to?

3 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] That is the figure you have on the

4 screen. However, I have the figure of 131.300, which seems plausible to

5 me, although I am aware that there may have been a mistake. In any case,

6 I wasn't going to focus on the exact figure but on the general increase in

7 numbers.

8 Q. Mr. Brunborg, I showed you the figures for Pristina, where the

9 figures almost doubled. I will now focus on the adjacent municipalities,

10 trying to confirm my thesis, which is that people moved from one area to

11 another, from one municipality to another, or from the municipalities

12 adjacent to Pristina into Pristina itself.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic, the witness is not in a position to

14 deal with material of this nature that he's not had previous dealings

15 with. He told you he had not seen this before, and if you have a

16 proposition, a thesis, to develop about where people moved to and from,

17 then that's a matter you can develop in your own case. The witness has

18 already said that as far as he's concerned his interest is in the overall

19 figures, which means that some will be lower in one -- they'll be lower in

20 one area, higher in another, but it's the overall figure that matters for

21 the purpose of his evidence. So let's concentrate on the issues that he's

22 qualified to give evidence on rather than try to build up a Defence case

23 in court on material he's never seen.

24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 [In English] Sorry, thank you, Your Honour.

1 [Interpretation] I merely wanted to see what the material studied

2 by the witness was when he arrived at some conclusions.

3 Q. My last question is this: Are you familiar with the work of

4 Dr. Rifat Biljaku [phoen] who was a Kosovo demographer, and the title of

5 his work is The Demographic Development of the Population of Kosovo. In

6 his data for 1999 and -- 1992 and 1993, we find the figure of 370.000

7 Albanians abroad as early as that time. Were you familiar with his work

8 and did you use that to make conclusions in your study?

9 A. I'm afraid I'm not familiar with this work, but I've seen other

10 references to very large numbers of Albanians being abroad for work. And

11 so this figure here is entirely consistent with the other figures.

12 Now, whether these people should be included with the population

13 of Kosovo is a matter of discussion. If they are away for more than a

14 year, they should not be included according to international standards.

15 If they left the family for a short while then and are coming back for

16 vacation and otherwise, then they should be included in the de jure

17 population.

18 Q. According to the best of your knowledge and your assessment, were

19 these people included or not, irrespective of their numbers? Were they

20 included in the estimates you addressed?

21 A. They were obviously not included in the UNFPA Blayo study -- well,

22 if they were members of the households, then they were -- sorry, I have to

23 think. Then they may have been included. That's right. But if there are

24 whole households who had left, we have to distinguish between whole

25 households and members of households. And if members of households had

1 left, then -- and their household members back in Kosovo were interviewed,

2 then they would probably include those who were temporarily absent.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: The criterion that you've just given of being

4 absent for more than a year, was that applied by the Blayo study?

5 THE WITNESS: They interviewed everybody, so their definition of

6 what is a household member is really up to the respondents. They asked

7 for how long these temporarily members had been absent, so it was up to

8 the authors, Blayo et al., to leave out those who had been absent for more

9 than a year.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you know if that's what they did?

11 THE WITNESS: Well, this was a de facto estimate and so they were

12 left out, those who were temporarily absent, and they did not make a

13 de jure estimate. But they did include them in the migration streams

14 since 1981.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

16 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. My last question: Did you consult the EU data on the immigration

18 from Kosovo into the countries of the EU, before the period you were asked

19 to provide your opinion on of course?

20 A. Not directly, but the Blayo study gives a number of Albanians in

21 various European countries.

22 Q. Based on what you have explained here or based on the data of

23 the EU?

24 A. Based on data of EU. I think -- let me see. No, they asked --

25 sorry, Blayo asked, they asked in the survey in which country their

1 temporarily absent household members were. So that's it. They did,

2 however, contact Switzerland to ask about Albanians in Switzerland and

3 their age and gender and so forth.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you know why Albanians migrate to Switzerland?

5 THE WITNESS: Well, most of them to work. Now after in 1999 there

6 were of course many who left because of the conflict.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Is it easier for them to migrate to Switzerland

8 than to an EU country?

9 THE WITNESS: I shouldn't think so. Various countries have

10 different migration policies and already accepted 6.000 refugees from

11 Kosovo in 1999.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.

13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to ask the witness

14 something else.

15 Q. The only country that the data was compared with was Switzerland

16 and none of the EU countries were consulted. Do we agree on that, because

17 my question focused on the countries of the EU. And I'm trying to recall,

18 but I believe Switzerland is still not an EU member. And if we agree on

19 that, I'm willing to conclude my cross-examination.

20 I'm asking about the data, not about Switzerland.

21 A. No, I did not consider EU data, and I don't think the Blayo et al.

22 did consider the EU data.

23 Q. [In English] Thank you very much.

24 MR. VISNJIC: Your Honour, I have no further questions for this

25 witness.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

2 Mr. Aleksic.

3 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We have no

4 questions for this witness.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. No questions

7 for this witness.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.

9 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, I'll have just a few questions for

10 this witness.

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Dr. Brunborg. My name is Branko

13 Lukic. I appear on behalf of General Lukic in these proceedings, and I

14 will have a few questions for you.

15 Based on your report and your testimony today, may we conclude

16 that concerning the number of the population in Kosovo there is no

17 reliable data. There are only estimates.

18 A. I would say they are reliable estimates and showing that the

19 general picture is one of quite rapid population growth to somewhat more

20 than 2 million in 1998. But you are right, there are no exact numbers.

21 Q. Thank you. Can we also agree that the most unreliable part is

22 precisely the one you indicated; that is, the migration of the population?

23 A. Yes, that is a very -- is always a very difficult piece of

24 information in all statistical -- in all statistics for all countries.

25 Q. Thank you.

1 A. If I may, the survey by the French demographers did ask about

2 migration. So in some way it is better than the migration data during

3 the -- from the official statistical office in Belgrade.

4 Q. Thank you. When discussing official data from Belgrade, can we

5 agree that their data is also based on estimates?

6 A. Yes, except for census years, and I did not remember if there is a

7 question relating to migration in the censuses. But otherwise, all

8 migration figures they might present for non-census years are based on

9 estimates.

10 Q. Thank you. Can we agree as well that compared to the other two

11 categories, after 1991 [Realtime transcript read in error "1999"] the data

12 relayed to Belgrade were also based on estimates rather than on specific

13 verifiable facts?

14 A. Well, after 1991 they continued to relay population and death

15 figures for some years, but they did not have any migration figures, so

16 there were no -- they did not relay any migration figures to Belgrade.

17 Q. The estimates include the birth and death rates as well, because

18 after 1991 there were no further censuses. Therefore, Belgrade was also

19 estimating?

20 A. Yes, on the basis of absolute numbers on births and deaths, they

21 estimated rates for births and deaths, I believe.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, line 20 there, should that be after

23 1991?

24 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Yesterday at page 36, line 5 of the transcript, you said that it

3 is normal that people move en masse because of wars. Can we agree that

4 there was a war in Kosovo in 1998 as well, before the 1st of October of

5 that year?

6 A. Well, I think there is a mistake in the translation. It referred

7 to yesterday and I was not -- I was not here yesterday. So you probably

8 meant before the break.

9 Q. [In English] Maybe I misspoke, I don't know, but in any event I

10 meant today, yes.

11 A. I don't have detailed knowledge about the Kosovo conflict in 1998.

12 I believe there was some migration then -- out migration then too. All

13 indications are that, but the most serious conflict was in 1999. The --

14 based on the Blayo report, I have made some estimates on the number of

15 migrations from -- in 1998 and it was 38.250.

16 Q. [Interpretation] Therefore, for the entire 1998 until the 1st of

17 October of that year, according to you, there were 38.250 people who

18 emigrated from Kosovo?

19 A. I think that it was for all of 1998, according to my notes and my

20 reading of the report.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I take you back just briefly to an earlier

23 answer about deaths -- births and deaths. Was there in the 1990s no

24 system of recording births and deaths in Kosovo?

25 THE WITNESS: I think there was. But the previous Defence lawyer

1 referred to the fact that there was some interruption in the recording of

2 these births and deaths. I think it was 1997, wasn't it? Yes. But

3 before then I believe that it was the -- these events were recorded as

4 usual.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. In your report you also note that the Albanians boycotted the

8 population census. Do you know that the Albanians from Albania immigrated

9 to Kosovo and Macedonia in their masses and that that, in fact, was the

10 reason why the Albanians boycotted the population census, because the -- a

11 census registers just the citizens of one country. Do you know about

12 that?

13 A. I don't know the details about that and the political background

14 on --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Indeed.

16 Mr. Lukic, I've -- I waited until the question was answered in

17 this case, but -- just to be absolutely sure, but that's not an

18 appropriate question for this witness.

19 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, this witness in his report mentioned

20 Macedonia as well and Kosovo. So that's why --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: But that's not the point. The point is the reason

22 for the boycott of the census, and that's not a matter that he is

23 qualified to answer.

24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll move on.

25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Brunborg, did you in the course of your work

1 discover how many Albanians in Kosovo who were actually citizens of the

2 state of Albania?

3 A. No, I did not come across any information on that.

4 Q. Do you know that not even the federal statistics institute was

5 ever able to establish how many Albanians from the state of Albania were

6 living in Kosovo? Did you come across that piece of information from the

7 institute of statistics in Belgrade?

8 A. No, and that does not surprise me that they did not know because

9 for knowing that they would need to have a census and ask about their

10 citizenship.

11 Q. Thank you. Can we agree over the following. You were not able to

12 provide a precise number of inhabitants and the ratio between the national

13 groups on the 1st of January, 1999. Would that be correct?

14 A. I was not asked to provide numbers for 1999, only for 1998.

15 Q. Thank you. I'm asking you because our indictment begins on the

16 1st of January, 1999.

17 A. So I think that I have been able to provide fairly precise figures

18 for 1st of October, 1998, that is only --

19 Q. Thank you.

20 A. [Previous translation continues] ... before.

21 Q. In your report I was surprised by one portion where you say that

22 you found data saying that the Serbs from Serbia proper came to inhabit

23 Kosovo. So could you tell me the source. Where did you come across that

24 piece of information?

25 A. I think in the general literature.

1 I need to -- I need to consult my report, which was written

2 several years ago.

3 Malcolm writes about emigration from Kosovo.

4 Can you enlighten me on where you found that information, please.

5 Q. [In English] That's a question. Give me one second. It's page 7,

6 paragraph 1.

7 A. Migration into Kosovo of Serbs and Croatians, Bosnia-Herzegovina

8 during the war period 1992 to 1995?

9 Q. And Serbia proper I guess that is.

10 A. Well, the Croatians and Bosnians were refugees, many of them, or

11 displaced persons.

12 Q. That's right. But let me try to find --

13 A. I see also you referred to settlement of Serbs from central Serbia

14 and Kosovo --

15 Q. Yes, that's right. Exactly.

16 A. I do not recall now but I've read that in the literature. It

17 could be Malcolm, it could also be other sources. I believe that there

18 was -- for a while there was a programme for -- to settle Serbs in

19 Kosovo --

20 Q. But never implemented. That's why I'm asking you whether you

21 found the exact data, how many Serbs from proper -- Serbia proper went to

22 Kosovo to live there.

23 A. That's right. I did not find any data, so that's why I did not

24 mention --

25 Q. Okay. Thanks.

1 A. -- include them.

2 Q. Thank you, Doctor. That were all my questions I have for you.

3 Thank you for answering my questions.

4 MR. LUKIC: That's all, Your Honours. Thank you.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Petrovic.

7 MR. PETROVIC: [Microphone not activated].

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, counsel.

9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I have no questions for this

10 witness.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.

12 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Kravetz.

14 MS. KRAVETZ: I have no further questions, Your Honour. Thank

15 you.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Dr. Brunborg, that completes your evidence at

18 this trial. Thank you for coming again to the Tribunal to give evidence.

19 You're now free to leave us.

20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

21 [The witness stands down]

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Kravetz -- Mr. Hannis.

23 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, the Prosecution's next witness is

24 Zlatomir Pesic.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, you want to ask something in relation to this

1 witness, I understand.

2 MR. HANNIS: That's correct, Your Honour. This witness was

3 originally noticed as a live witness. We proposed to offer his written

4 statement and a supplemental information to that statement and also lead

5 some live evidence from him, so he's what I referred to in the past as a

6 combination witness, live and 92 ter.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, but I think I read somewhere about the

8 likelihood of an extended examination.

9 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, I think the most recent

10 notification we gave referring to him did mention Rule 92 ter and live and

11 an hour and a half of live testimony --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: No, the latest one I've got estimates three hours.

13 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, I based that partly on having how

14 sat in some proofing with him earlier this week. He's a very deliberate

15 witness who speaks slowly and carefully after a pause between questions.

16 He'll be a delight for the translators and the court reporter when he's

17 being questioned in his own language, I think, but it does take longer to

18 go through things with him.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: And what does his evidence relate to principally?

20 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, he is -- he was a career soldier, and he

21 will be testifying about organisation and structure in the VJ. His job in

22 1999, from January 1999, he was transferred to the military district,

23 where he was principally responsible for conscription and mobilisation of

24 the recruits and dealt with the military districts, the military sectors,

25 and the military detachments, which is something different from the VJ,

1 which he can explain to you better than I can.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: And how does that tie in with your case?

3 MR. HANNIS: Because, Your Honour, we have alleged that the crimes

4 committed were by forces under the control of these accused, and during

5 wartime you have heard and will hear evidence about how the forces -- how

6 various forces are subordinated to the VJ, not only the MUP, but the

7 military territorial detachments. And his evidence goes to that.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Am I right in thinking that he doesn't purport to

9 give any evidence about any criminal conduct?

10 MR. HANNIS: Very little in that regard, Your Honour. He touches

11 on it, and he's talking about the reservists from the VJ as well, how they

12 are activated and used during times of war.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: So what's now your best estimate of the live part

14 of his evidence?

15 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, with his statement I think two and a

16 half hours.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: I find that very surprising in view of the content

18 of this evidence and its relevance to the case. It may be nice to have a

19 very complete picture of the military structure, but the statement itself

20 goes into a lot of that detail, and I just wonder what you're going to do

21 for two and a half hours with him.

22 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, I'm sure you'll be watching me

23 closely, and if you determine that I'm wasting time you'll bring it to my

24 attention. But I think it is relevant and it will tie in with evidence

25 yet to be heard on the military. He will talk about some documents, and

1 in going through his statement I discovered that in answering one question

2 the answer often elicited several questions.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, we're agreed that careful monitoring of

5 the progress of the evidence may lead us to curtail the time spent, but we

6 shall see. So let's --

7 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: -- have the witness in court.

9 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

10 [The witness entered court]

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Pesic. Can you hear me?

12 Would you now make the solemn declaration to speak the truth by

13 reading aloud the document being placed before you.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

17 Mr. Pesic, you'll be asked questions by a number of counsel in

18 turn. The first counsel to examine you will be for the Prosecution, and

19 then later counsel for the various accused. So we'll start with counsel

20 for the Prosecution, Mr. Hannis.

21 Mr. Hannis.

22 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 WITNESS: ZLATOMIR PESIC

24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 Examination by Mr. Hannis:

1 Q. Good afternoon, Colonel. Would you please state your name for the

2 record and spell your last name.

3 A. Zlatomir Pesic, P-e-s-i-c.

4 Q. And I understand you're a retired VJ or JNA colonel. Is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Colonel, prior to coming here today did you have occasion to be

8 interviewed by and give a statement to representatives of the Office of

9 the Prosecutor of this Tribunal on the 29th and 30th of January, 2004?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. HANNIS: And if I may ask the usher to hand him a hard copy.

12 And, Your Honours, this is Exhibit P2502.

13 Q. Colonel, do you recognise that document as the statement you just

14 mentioned?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And earlier this week, actually yesterday, did you have occasion

17 to speak with representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor after having

18 reviewed your statement, and did you note some changes that you would like

19 to make to that statement?

20 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honours, I'm now handing him Exhibit 2515,

21 P2515.

22 Q. Have you had a chance to see that document which is marked as a

23 supplemental information?

24 A. Yes. There are typing errors; however, they're not essential.

25 Q. And does that document reflect the changes that you noticed that

1 you wanted to make to your 2004 statement?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. With those changes noted in that supplement, are you now satisfied

4 and able to attest to this Court that your statement is true and accurate

5 and that if you were asked those same questions you would give the same

6 answers now under oath?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, we would tender the statement with the

10 supplemental information.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

12 MR. HANNIS:

13 Q. Colonel, your military career is set out in your statement in

14 paragraphs 2 and 3 and partly in paragraph 4. I note that you in 1977 to

15 1988 were with the guards division. Can you tell us what the guards

16 division of the JNA was.

17 A. One of the operative units of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,

18 or rather, the Army of the Republic of Yugoslavia.

19 Q. Is there anything special or unique about that particular

20 division?

21 A. Nothing special, no.

22 Q. Now, you say that you attended the command staff academy in

23 1988/1989, as that was a prerequisite for becoming a colonel. When did

24 you, in fact, become a colonel?

25 A. In 1996.

1 Q. And I note that in 1995 to 1999 you were the assistant for

2 logistics on the command staff of the Pristina Corps. Who was your

3 immediate superior? Who was the head of logistics on the Pristina Corps

4 command staff at that time?

5 A. I took over the duty in December 1995. I became assistant for

6 logistics on that date.

7 Q. I'm afraid maybe I didn't make my question clear. Who was -- was

8 there anyone else above you in terms of dealing with logistics, or does

9 that title mean that you are the primary person responsible for logistics?

10 A. Within the frameworks of the command of the Pristina Corps, that

11 was me.

12 Q. Okay. That's my misunderstanding about the term. What were your

13 duties as the assistant for logistics?

14 A. To provide logistics and support to all the units of the corps.

15 Q. In paragraph 5 we see that you were appointed commander of the

16 Pristina Military District in January of 1999. First of all, tell us who

17 appointed you to that position?

18 A. The military district was subordinate to the commander of the

19 3rd Army, so the appointment to that duty was something that was decided

20 by the commander of the 3rd Army, and it was pursuant to his order and

21 decree that I was appointed.

22 Q. And who was that person at that time?

23 A. At that time it was General Nebojsa Pavkovic.

24 Q. Could you explain for me and the Judges, please, who -- regarding

25 military districts, how do they relate to the VJ, to the Yugoslav army?

1 Are they a part of the army? Something separate and distinct? Could you

2 please explain that.

3 A. Military districts are military territorial organs. Specifically

4 speaking, the military district of Pristina covers the area of

5 responsibility of the Pristina Corps and carries out assignments for the

6 need of the Pristina Corps and further afield as well. The basic task is

7 to carry out their military duties and assignments. To carry out the

8 military duties which comprise the introduction of adults or men of

9 military age into the registrar -- register, to recruit them, to recruit

10 young men, and send them to do their military training and military

11 service, to take them on after they have completed their military service,

12 and to keep records of the reserve force.

13 Q. As I understand it in the FRY at the time, every young man when he

14 reached the age of 18 had an obligation to perform national service in the

15 military. Is that correct?

16 A. When they reached the age of 18, they would be recorded in the

17 military -- listed in the military records, in the military register, when

18 they become of age.

19 Q. And by -- was there a requirement then that they actually serve in

20 the military at some point in time after they reached the age of 18?

21 A. Certainly, pursuant to the law governing the army when the young

22 men reached the age of 18 - and now it is 21 - they had a duty to perform

23 their military service with certain exceptions. And if you were

24 exception, you could postpone this, due to sickness, to further education,

25 or to being abroad, and some other specific reasons that can be taken

1 onboard.

2 Q. Was there any way you could avoid it entirely or merely delay it?

3 A. The law regulated serving your -- doing your military service by

4 the age of 27 and exceptionally by the age of 35. Then special procedure

5 would be put in place for automatically becoming a member of the reserve

6 force.

7 Q. And the minimum term you had to serve was how long?

8 A. In the period we're discussing, it was 12 months.

9 Q. Did it apply to all ethnic groups in the former Republic of

10 Yugoslavia or were some excluded?

11 A. It applied to all citizens. All citizens had to do their military

12 service, regardless of their ethnicity or religion.

13 Q. As a practical matter, were some groups omitted or excluded from

14 the requirement?

15 A. I'm not sure I understand the term "groups." What you mean by

16 that?

17 Q. Any particular ethnic group.

18 A. I have just said that all citizens are required to do their

19 military service, all citizens of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,

20 regardless of their religion or their faith and their nationality or

21 ethnic affiliation.

22 Q. I understood that answer that it was the requirement by the law.

23 My question was: As a matter of practice, did that differ from what the

24 law was.

25 A. That is how the law regulated the matter. Now, if you mean

1 specifically in Kosovo, for example, then that is a separate case, a

2 separate matter, and I'm not in a position to give you a precise answer to

3 that because I occupied my post and performed my duties from January 1999,

4 and I don't know the period of time or as of what moment the members of

5 the Albanian ethnic group from Kosovo were not called up to do their

6 military service, or weren't included in the register and were not sent to

7 complete their military service.

8 Q. But that did happen in Kosovo; correct?

9 A. Yes. But not for Albanians living in other areas of Serbia.

10 Q. And was that --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Pesic, did the assistant for logistics have any

12 responsibilities in relation to the mobilisation of young men?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm referring to the

14 period when I took over the duty of the person in charge of the military

15 district who was in charge of conscripts. While I was with the logistics

16 in the corps until January 1999, that was not part of my duties.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

18 Mr. Hannis.

19 MR. HANNIS:

20 Q. But from January 1999, that was your primary duty, wasn't it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And was that already the situation in Kosovo when you assumed the

23 post as head of the Pristina Military District in January 1999? That is,

24 that Albanians from Kosovo were not being conscripted and were not on your

25 rosters for mobilisation.

1 A. Precisely so. What I found upon my arrival was that the

2 documentation pertaining to the Albanian ethnic group which had served the

3 military term and that they were made part of the reserve force; however,

4 they were not deployed within the units of the corps or of the military

5 district. As for the young Albanians who were of age, they were no longer

6 made part of the registry -- of the register.

7 Q. Okay. So in -- in the former Yugoslavia when I reach the age

8 of 18, I'm obligated, absent some exception, to serve my military duty for

9 a year. When a person completes that one year of his military obligation,

10 what happens when he leaves the army? Does he keep his uniform or his

11 weapon or does he turn everything in? What happens?

12 A. After one has served his military duty, his military term, the

13 soldier returns home in civilian clothes with his military booklet, which

14 had been stamped in his unit, stating the date of completion of the

15 military service. His personal file is being sent by his unit to the

16 military district by mail; to be specific, to one of the offices of the

17 military district.

18 Within one week, the soldier is duty-bound to report to the

19 military district to confirm his arrival. And as of that moment, the

20 office in -- within the military district in charge puts the person on the

21 list of the reserve forces. Depending on the needs and applications made

22 by units and corresponding to his military specialty, that person is then

23 given a unit and given wartime deployment, which is registered in his file

24 and in his military booklet.

25 Later, he can be summoned or drafted by the unit itself through

1 the military district or via the military district.

2 Q. Let me stop you there for a second. I have a question about that.

3 When you say he can be summoned or drafted by the unit itself, do

4 you mean the unit that he was on active duty with prior to leaving the

5 army and becoming a part of the reserve?

6 A. No, no. The unit that the person had been assigned to by the

7 military district, depending on the given person's military specialty. As

8 to what unit it can be, it doesn't have to be within the military district

9 or the garrison itself; he can be with another unit. His wartime

10 deployment is with the units within the territory where he lives.

11 Q. And would that depend in large part upon what his military

12 specialty was and where a need was for someone with that specialty?

13 A. Yes, it would. Upon recruitment, the recruiting office with the

14 military district needs to pay attention to the military specialist -- the

15 specialty, the so-called "ves," v-e-s in B/C/S, and they try to match that

16 to the units within the given territory. The manning itself is done by

17 the military district, in this case the Pristina Military District, taking

18 into account the needs of the units within its area. He is not going to

19 be sent to the navy, in other words, if there are no navy units within the

20 Pristina Corps.

21 Q. And after I have been 18 and done by active service and now I'm 19

22 and gone home and I'm in the reserves, how long would one remain in the

23 reserve forces? Was there a time-limit after which I would no longer have

24 an obligation?

25 A. One's military duty begins when one turns 18 and concludes when

1 one is 55, pursuant to the Law on Military Duty; or, to be more specific,

2 the Law on National Defence which comprises the provisions pertaining to

3 the military duty.

4 Q. Okay. Thank you for that. Now, military districts, was the

5 entire former Republic of Yugoslavia divided into military districts or

6 was that only in Kosovo?

7 A. To use the official term, military district, the entire territory

8 was divided into military districts, the military district of Pristina, of

9 Nis, of Kragujevac, of Uzice, of Belgrade, of Novi Sad.

10 Q. And in Kosovo, the province of Kosovo, how many military districts

11 were there?

12 A. There was one military district covering the units in the

13 territory of Kosovo.

14 Q. And I understand --

15 A. And it had five military branches within its framework.

16 Q. And I know in your statement at paragraph 6 you mention that there

17 were five military sectors, is how it's translated into English. Is that

18 the correct term, "vojni odsek"?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And the sectors were further divided into military territorial

21 detachments?

22 A. Yes. They had detachments, the so-called "odseci" in B/C/S in

23 smaller towns.

24 Q. And geographically were those detachments found in each of -- each

25 of the municipalities in Kosovo?

1 A. Military sectors covered larger municipalities, those being

2 Pristina, Kosovska Mitrovica, Prizren, and Gnjilane. In smaller

3 municipalities and larger local communes, there were detachments of the

4 sectors. For example, the Pristina Military Sector had a detachment in

5 the municipality of Podujevo, then another one in the municipality of

6 Urosevac, another one in the municipality of Kosovo Polje.

7 Q. Now I want to go to -- thank you for that. I want to go to

8 paragraph 9 of your statement where you explain that the military

9 territorial groups were responsible for dealing with compulsory service

10 and mobilisation of the reserves. In your supplemental information to

11 paragraph 9, you indicated that most reservists had their uniforms

12 already. When had they obtained their uniforms? Were they issued to them

13 when they arrived after their active-duty service or how did that come

14 about?

15 A. Once the men of military age are being assigned their respective

16 units, that unit relays to him where the assembly points at wartime are

17 once general mobilisation is declared or if being issued with a summons or

18 a draft call. If the given unit has clothes, uniforms, at its disposal,

19 the unit issues the uniform to the soldier. In case he is not given one,

20 that is dealt later during mobilisation. Units were prepared for that.

21 They had spare clothing, which would then be distributed to those men who

22 had no uniforms and belonged to the reserve forces.

23 Q. Partially, as a result of this process, is it fair to say that the

24 reservists who were activated in March of 1999 had a variety of uniforms?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. In your -- oh, I'm sorry, did you want to go on?

2 A. It is true that they had different uniforms at the moment of

3 mobilisation. That was due to several reasons. Some of them were older

4 and they had been issued with uniforms previously and were given the --

5 then uniform, the then-type of uniform. Men who were younger and who were

6 issued with uniforms at a later stage received the new type of uniform.

7 In any case, the intention was that the old uniforms be replaced with the

8 new ones.

9 In some units, this had been implemented and some it had not,

10 depending on their resources and the orders of their respective commands.

11 There were also special units, special police and reconnaissance units,

12 which were regularly issued with the new type of uniform. These priority

13 units had newer uniforms, and this is how the variety of uniforms in

14 existence at that time is explained.

15 Q. What was the primary distinction between what you referred to as

16 the old uniforms and the new-type uniform?

17 A. The update, the general update of the army, including the

18 introduction of new uniforms, which were different by way of quality,

19 colour, and another distinction was that pertaining to caps and berets.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, if you intend going into the detail of

21 the appearance of the uniforms, then that will be after the break.

22 MR. HANNIS: That's fine, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Pesic, we have to break now for half an hour.

24 While we have that break, could you please leave the courtroom. The usher

25 will show you where to wait. Thank you.

1 [The witness stands down]

2 JUDGE BONOMY: We will resume at 6.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 5.29 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 6.00 p.m.

5 [The witness takes the stand]

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Please continue, Mr. Hannis.

7 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Colonel, I was just asking you about paragraph 9 in your

9 supplemental information. You mentioned the difference between old and

10 new-type uniforms. Were the old uniforms the solid colour green that

11 sometimes was referred to as SMB I think? SMB?

12 A. Yes, but in small numbers. The reserve forces who were of older

13 age and these uniforms were no longer supplied at a certain stage because

14 the envisaged change to the new-type uniforms for the younger recruits was

15 in place.

16 Q. And you described those as green camouflage. I wasn't clear,

17 though, when you mentioned the military detachments and you described

18 those as reconnaissance units. These were priority units that had newer

19 uniforms. Was that also the green camouflage or was that something

20 different? Were there two types of green camouflage?

21 A. The standard name was SMB. That was the oldest type of uniform,

22 and I believe our reserve forces nowadays no longer have it. Later on

23 there was a green uniform, similar to the SMB, but it was a different fit

24 and colour. And then the M-77 and the M-80, M-90, and M-91 appeared. I

25 believe it was a standard procedure of introducing new uniforms; however,

1 it couldn't be done overnight in any army, including ours. Usually

2 priorities are given to the units, the so-called A units, and then the

3 B units, and then in order of importance.

4 Q. The M-77, M-80, M-90, and M-91, were those all green camouflage of

5 some sort?

6 A. For the most part. The prevailing colour, however, is this

7 green-grey camouflage colour corresponding to our terrain.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Does SMB stand for anything in particular?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is "sivo maslinasto boja" in

10 B/C/S, olive-grey.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, olive-green.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I hesitated to ask the question in a leading

13 way. I'm glad now I didn't.

14 We've heard a number of witnesses refer to uniforms as

15 olive-grey-green. Is that something other than SMB?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, I believe it to be the

17 same thing. There may be nuances with the new camouflage patterns to

18 resemble the uniforms of some western armies.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

20 Mr. Hannis.

21 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

22 Q. You -- in an earlier answer you just mentioned the so-called

23 A units and the B units. In paragraph 10 of your statement, you talked

24 about two classifications of military territorial detachments A and B. Is

25 that what you were referring to up above?

1 A. No. These are detachments in the sense of a unit formation, the

2 level. It's a different thing. As for A-type formations with the army, I

3 mean their manning strength and the percentage is higher at peacetime;

4 therefore, at wartime they needed less men, as opposed to the B units,

5 which had less personnel and they drew more from the reserve forces. They

6 were less mobile.

7 Q. And were those smaller B units located in the smaller

8 municipalities or was there any correlation between the unit size and the

9 municipality where they were from?

10 A. The explanation I gave as for the A and B formations, it is a

11 general principle used in the army. Perhaps to explain it better I could

12 say that the modernisation process in terms of introducing new types of

13 uniform did not have much to do with the A and B classification of the

14 detachments with fell under my military district. And --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, under my military

16 sectors.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps I should continue

18 explaining.

19 The A detachments, only A formations could be manned from a given

20 territory. As for the B formations, the municipalities they were in

21 simply had not enough -- did not have enough population. This is the only

22 distinction: They could not be fully manned from their respective

23 municipalities.

24 MR. HANNIS:

25 Q. Could men be pulled in then from other municipalities to fill up

1 those detachments or was that not permitted?

2 A. These are detachments of the military district, or military

3 sectors, and I said that a military sector comprises a set territory with

4 a number of municipalities, one larger municipality and several smaller

5 ones, and I quoted the example of Pristina. And more specifically, in

6 Pristina you could form an A-class detachment with 400 men. Urosevac, for

7 example, did not have enough men, enough people, and so it had a

8 detachment with just 200 soldiers. So that's the difference. The

9 possibility that you have in a given location to provide a full complement

10 of men. So this corresponded to the territory and the needs of the

11 detachments. You would have to bring in people from outside.

12 Q. You mentioned in your answer that -- before that one that it was

13 difficult sometimes to meet the quota and fill up these detachments. In

14 paragraph 10, you said some of these were never full strength because of a

15 lack of non-Albanians. That was a problem for you in Kosovo, wasn't it,

16 because there weren't that many non-Albanians in Kosovo?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You say in the last sentence in paragraph 10 that: "We did not

19 include Albanians in these detachments."

20 Why not? I think you told us before that that was a pre-existing

21 condition when you took this job in January 1999. But do you know why

22 Albanians in Kosovo were not being taken in? Was there a law or an order

23 or a regulation?

24 A. Possibly there was an order which I did not see. Possibly it was

25 an -- for security reasons a tacit agreement; possibly it was an

1 assessment on the part of the security organs that there should not be any

2 Albanians within the composition of a detachment. So I'm not quite sure

3 what the reason was, as I was in the military district as of January, and

4 I wasn't able to look at all the previous orders and instructions and

5 guidelines that might have been issued in that regard. So that is the

6 state of affairs that I came upon when I joined up there.

7 Q. I understand. In connection with that you say in paragraph 11 in

8 your supplemental information that the normal cut-off age for service

9 would be 55 years of age, but later when you had a shortage of reservists

10 this age limit wasn't strictly followed. So actually to fill up these

11 units, were you sometimes taking men older than 55?

12 A. Yes. For the units of the corps, we selected younger men and we'd

13 fill up our detachments with the remaining men. And it is possible that

14 there were people who were older, which wasn't anything unusual nor did

15 anybody complain if they were called up because they were locals, they

16 knew each other, they were units which were responsible for the territory

17 they were in, mostly they were resident there, had assignments in the

18 territory, so there was not -- there was -- there were no complaints or

19 nothing to say that they could not be called up, no provisions of that

20 kind.

21 Q. Because of the shortage of military-aged non-Albanian men in

22 Kosovo, did you also have to sometimes lower your standards with regard to

23 some of the other requirements, in terms of physical fitness or mental

24 fitness or even criminal history?

25 A. When it came to the detachments, let me repeat once again, they

1 were people from the area, from that territory. They knew each other and

2 they wanted to be in a detachment and be armed. They didn't want to be

3 left out. They didn't want to be the exception; only if they were ill,

4 perhaps. So there we didn't have a problem. They were territorial

5 detachments responsible for the territory, for their families, for their

6 neighbour's families, for their territory, so that wasn't a problem as far

7 as these detachments were concerned.

8 Q. Okay. Let me ask you a question. You said earlier that the -- in

9 peacetime the military district was subordinate to the 3rd Army. During

10 the state of war, to whom or what was the military district subordinate?

11 A. In peacetime, the military district was subordinated to the

12 commander of the 3rd Army. In the newly arisen situation, the army

13 commander would decide to resubordinate the command of the military

14 district to the Pristina Corps command for understandable reasons.

15 Q. In there where you say "the newly arisen situation," do you mean

16 the state of war?

17 A. Yes, the concrete situation as of March, and this happened in

18 April -- well, there are documents about that for April. I don't have it,

19 but they do exist. And this was regulated exclusively on the basis and

20 pursuant to orders, strictly defined in a date with respect to the

21 resubordination.

22 Q. During peacetime you, as head of the Pristina Military District,

23 what was your authority over the military sectors and military territorial

24 detachments?

25 A. I could issue orders with relation to the military sectors; they

1 were all subordinate to me.

2 As for the detachments, they were within the military sectors and

3 they were subordinated to the commander of the military sector. He was

4 responsible for having them up to full strength and for their training,

5 et cetera, materiel, et cetera.

6 Q. Did that change during the state of war?

7 A. At a certain point in time, yes, it did. And during a certain

8 period practically all the detachments were subordinate to the brigade

9 commanders in the area of responsibility of those brigades in order to

10 avoid dual command. Dual command within the same zone or area.

11 Q. Let me ask you a question about the military territorial

12 detachments in peacetime. Did they exist and function -- I mean, were men

13 wearing uniforms and carrying out some kind of duty as part of the

14 military territorial detachment in peacetime, or was that something that

15 only existed on paper to be activated if and when there was a necessity,

16 such as a war?

17 A. They existed in wartime. In peacetime, they underwent

18 preparation; their equipment and materiel and training. They would be

19 called up for a day or two. There was planned training in the course of a

20 year or a two-year period, depending on the resources available for people

21 to be called up and trained.

22 Q. So after you took up your duties in January 1999, sometime before

23 the NATO bombing started, 24 March, did you get ordered or requested to

24 provide some men for the VJ, for the Pristina Corps?

25 A. That is a normal process and the normal obligation of a military

1 district. It is based on plans and programmes for ensuring the full

2 strength of the Pristina Corps, which is realised pursuant to a request

3 made from the Pristina Corps and their requirements for various

4 specialties for different areas or deployment in brigades. And this

5 process is a very normal process and takes place normally in peacetime.

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. The corps units call-up the reserve force via the organs of the

8 military sector for purposes of training, for purposes of putting on

9 uniforms, et cetera.

10 Q. Okay. Now, I'm trying to distinguish between the two things I

11 understand that you did. One was that you -- you provided conscripts,

12 those who were doing their military service for the first time. Is that

13 correct?

14 A. They were, yes, conscripts.

15 Q. The ones who had never done any military service before, these you

16 helped provide as required by the VJ?

17 A. No, no. Those who had completed their military service, who had

18 completed their military service and become trained for a certain

19 specialty at the request of the unit of the corps, then they would be

20 deployed there. We would hand them over to them. We would supply them

21 with that kind of profile.

22 Q. Okay. Who was responsible then --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that answer doesn't tie in with what I

24 understood you to say earlier, where -- when you were asked about the

25 general responsibilities of the military district, you described the

1 military district as a military territorial organ carrying out assignments

2 for the needs of the Pristina Corps. For example, recruitment, sending

3 recruits to do military service, taking them on after military service,

4 and then enrolling them as reservists. So it would appear from that, that

5 you were responsible for the initial recruitment of those who were being

6 mobilised as young men.

7 Have I misunderstood that?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's a little misunderstanding,

9 but it is very simple. Young people, when they reach the age of 18, or

10 rather, 19 - and today that age is 21 - are sent to do their military

11 service. Once they return, we list them and register them as the reserve

12 formation, the reservists. And at the request of units from its peacetime

13 formation to wartime formations, they send in a request and we provide

14 them to these units because our units --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand certainly that part of your

16 responsibilities. But I must have misunderstood you on the earlier part

17 of your answer at the beginning because you described one of your

18 assignments or one of your responsibilities as recruitment, including --

19 and that was -- you then went on to describe sending people to do their

20 military service, and that suggested to me that you arranged that the

21 young recruits would be sent for military service. And now you're

22 indicating that your responsibilities are confined to dealing with them

23 after they've completed their military service and become reservists. So

24 I'm a bit confused.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For as long as they have to do their

1 military -- or, rather, they are recruits, they are -- that is from the

2 age of 19 or 21 to 55, they are registered as such. So they're registered

3 as being of age. They are recruited. Their specialty is determined. And

4 their fitness is assessed, to see how fit somebody is for a given military

5 specialty. Then they are sent to do their military service. They could

6 be sent from Pristina to Belgrade, for instance, or Nis, or any other town

7 throughout the country.

8 Once they have completed their military service, he is registered

9 as a member of the reserve force. We have these lists of people, and at

10 the request of a unit we offer them, if I can put it that way, on the

11 basis of the specialties they have and how these correspond to the

12 requirements of a particular unit. So they are sent to the unit and they

13 are on the wartime deployment of that unit; and they are called up when

14 the mobilisation is called or they are called up to be issued uniforms or

15 to undergo training or whatever.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Hannis, perhaps you can clarify it, but I

17 remain confused at the moment about whether there's any responsibility on

18 the part of the military district for arranging the allocation of the

19 initial recruits at 19 or, as it now is, 21.

20 MR. HANNIS: I think you and I are in the same boat, Your Honour.

21 I'll try and ask a couple questions.

22 Q. Colonel, I had the same understanding as the Judge. Did the

23 military district or the military sectors have any responsibilities in

24 terms of conscription, the brand new recruits who've never been in the

25 military; or was that handled by some other agency? Who signed those

1 people up when they turned 18 or 19 or 21 and who told them it was time to

2 go to a particular place and take a particular military specialty? Who

3 was responsible for that?

4 A. An organ of the military sector. At age 18, they are just

5 registered, their names are registered. Now, when they have to do their

6 military service, the same body calls them up and sends them off to do

7 their military service. Once they have completed military service, they

8 take them on and register them in their register of reservists. And when

9 units need to be brought up to strength in times of war, then the unit

10 sends in a request and the military sector provides men for purposes of

11 the unit and hands over their personal files and so on.

12 Q. And the military sectors -- there were five military sectors under

13 you as the military district. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes, and each sector does this for its own territory.

15 Q. And related to that, who tells each military sector how many

16 recruits we need from your sector for this month? Who sets those quotas?

17 A. It's not done by month, on the basis of months; it is done on the

18 basis of the needs of a unit, a brigade of the Pristina Corps, for

19 example, from Prizren.

20 The 549th Brigade, for example, needs ten reconnaissance men and

21 it contacts the military sector in Prizren with that request. Then the

22 military sector in Prizren offers or supplies him with the personal files

23 of ten scouts or reconnaissance workers, which means that the unit will

24 receive ten scouts or ten reconnaissance men.

25 The brigade in Kosovska Mitrovica, for example, similarly needs

1 men from peacetime to wartime and sends in a request to the military

2 sector Kosovska Mitrovica. Kosovska Mitrovica, or the military sector of

3 Kosovska Mitrovica then supplies those men, the men it needs, the

4 specialists it needs.

5 Q. What --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: When you speak of the registration of in those days

7 the 18-year-olds, were these names registered with the military district

8 or were they registered somewhere else?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is based on cooperation with the

10 basic service, where newborn babies are registered, for example, and the

11 military sector receives the names of people who have turned 18 and then

12 those names are listed and their personal files compiled.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: We now have the answer. Thank you.

14 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

15 Q. Now, when I've done my military service and I've come back home

16 and I've registered as a reservist, what if -- what does someone do or

17 what can someone do if I decide, Boy, I hate the army, I just don't like

18 that army lifestyle, but my buddy over there is a policeman and he's got a

19 pretty snazzy uniform and I like the way he looks and what he does. I'd

20 like to be a policeman instead of a reservist in the army. Can he switch

21 or is he stuck being in the army reserve for the rest of his life?

22 A. In cooperation with the MUP, we also supply quotas for them, as we

23 do for the army, for the army units.

24 Now, the peacetime service for MUP is different. I don't know

25 that we're talking about that now, are we?

1 Q. Well, I didn't -- I didn't know you were going to talk about the

2 MUP, but let's talk about -- first of all, in the peacetime -- in

3 peacetime, the military territorial district, or the military district

4 didn't have any responsibility for providing police reserves, did they?

5 A. Well, the reserve police in peacetime does not exist. Now, for

6 the requirements of wartime units, we supply men, we supply the reserve --

7 we supply the police units with the reservists at a request from the unit.

8 Q. And who decided whether a recruit would go into the police reserve

9 or into the army reserve, VJ reserve, during a time of war? How was that

10 determination made? Did it depend on the specialty that was required?

11 A. This was settled in peacetime because on the basis of plans and

12 documents, units would receive their quota of men on the basis of these

13 plans; and once a unit came up to full strength, it was up to the unit's

14 commander after that. So it is on the basis of his plan and requirements

15 that he calls these men up through the military sector.

16 Q. I'm sorry, Colonel, I'm still a little confused about how that

17 worked with the MUP. During peacetime could certain reservists be

18 designated that in the event of a state of emergency or imminent threat of

19 war or war that they would go into the police when they were activated?

20 Was that planned ahead of time or did that only occur once there was

21 actually some extraordinary state in effect, if you understand my

22 question?

23 A. Yes. In peacetime, too, as -- just like the military units, also

24 at the request of the MUP, they would be assigned a reserve force or

25 reservists, usually in cooperation with the men themselves, men of that

1 specialty. So this is the kind of cooperation that takes place in

2 peacetime in order to select the best cadres, the best men, with the

3 required specialties.

4 Q. Okay. Thank you. In paragraph 11, you mentioned that when the

5 state of war was declared in March, the reserves filled up the

6 Pristina Corps. And then you talked about how you had tried to convince

7 some shiptars, Kosovo Albanians, to join. How did that come about?

8 Because you told us before that Kosovar Albanians were not included in the

9 reserves. But once the state of war occurred, were you looking so hard

10 for men that you tried to persuade some of the loyal Kosovo Albanians to

11 join the army as well?

12 A. It was not my idea; it was the decision of my superior command.

13 Whether it was the command of the corps or of the 3rd Army or of the

14 General Staff, I don't know, but it was their view that an Albanian unit

15 should be formed. I received an order from my superior command stating

16 that, and a sufficient number of uniforms was provided as well as weapons.

17 It was our task to try and motivate some Albanian citizens. We

18 tried to target that part of the population which was loyal and the people

19 who thought that what the shiptar terrorists were doing was not a good

20 thing because they inflicted evil on the Albanian population as well.

21 This was an attempt to use -- or to join our forces so that such people

22 could remain there to continue working and to keep their families safe.

23 It was an attempt to jointly oppose these extremist shiptar forces.

24 Q. Thank you. I gather from your statement that you weren't

25 successful in being able to do that. Is that right?

1 A. Through my offices and my information assistants as well as the

2 chief of security and the chief of intelligence, who were familiar with

3 the terrain, with the territory, I tried to take part; however, we were

4 unsuccessful.

5 I personally went to one of the larger villages in the

6 Kosovo Polje municipality, the village of Dobrovo. The population there

7 is 90 per cent Albanian. They all work and they are employed by the

8 companies there. There was a large farm there, a dairy factory, a

9 slaughter-house.

10 Q. I'm sorry, Colonel, let me stop you there. I think you have

11 answered my question that you weren't successful in persuading them.

12 Let me move to paragraph 15 of your statement where you tell us

13 that in the first 20 days of the war certain detachments were subordinated

14 to the brigades, and in your supplemental information you explain that the

15 military territorial detachments were used for three kinds of task:

16 Number 1, protection of vital facilities; number 2, control of the

17 territory; and number 3, combat operations against the KLA.

18 Can you explain for us what control of the territory involved.

19 What did a military detachment do to control the territory?

20 A. The detachments were founded on the territorial principle. They

21 covered their respective areas with the aim of protecting the population

22 and property. Hence, the idea that such units should control their own

23 ground and not to be sent away to another territory.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zecevic.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Just the transcript, it's 82, 22 and 23. The

1 witness said: They covered their respective areas with the aim of

2 protecting all of the population and whole of the property. I mean, if

3 this can be clarified with the witness. I'm sure he said all of the

4 population and whole of the property.

5 Thank you.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Pesic, is that the answer you gave?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely. The entire

8 territory, all of the population, and all property.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

10 Mr. Hannis.

11 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

12 Q. In your supplemental information on that paragraph you also say

13 that once these detachments were activated and subordinated to brigades of

14 the Pristina Corps, sometimes they were used for protection of units and

15 equipment by the brigades. Once they were re-assigned or resubordinated,

16 discipline and their assignments were made within the command of the

17 brigade. You mentioned that the detachments consisted of local people,

18 whereas the brigades had regular soldiers and reservists. What's the

19 difference between a reservist in a brigade and somebody in a detachment

20 who was resubordinated to a brigade? Could they both be people from the

21 same town, one just happened to be a part of the detachment and the other

22 was activated as a reservist to go to the brigade? Is there any other

23 distinction?

24 A. If I understand your question, you would like to know whether

25 there was a difference between the reservist forces of the detachment,

1 which were made part of brigades, and the reserve forces that were already

2 under the brigade framework?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. The brigades of the Pristina Corps were brought up to strength

5 ex-territorially as well, meaning introducing men from elsewhere, usually

6 from the military district of Nis because they had insufficient numbers of

7 able-bodied men to man the units of the Pristina Corps.

8 It is my conclusion that you would like to know the difference

9 between the reservists of that origin and the reserve forces in

10 detachments from Kosovo itself.

11 Q. Yeah, is there any other difference than that geographical

12 difference?

13 A. When it comes to the reservists in detachments and those in

14 brigades, there is a difference. I've explained already, I believe. It

15 was the difference in age, equipment, and training, as opposed to the

16 reservists and brigades which -- the people who were better trained,

17 better equipped, and who were younger and they were specialists according

18 to the tasks of their respective brigade. They were younger than the

19 other type of reservists.

20 Q. Okay. So if I'm clear, then, those in the detachments were older,

21 less well trained, and less well equipped? Have I got that right?

22 A. Certainly. The type of weaponry.

23 Q. Okay. Thank you. In paragraph 16 you talked about some of the

24 commanders used the detachments that were subordinated -- resubordinated

25 to them; they used them for protection of their combat formations. Can

1 you give us an example of that? What brigade commander used one of these

2 detachments to protect their combat formation? And how did -- how did

3 that work?

4 A. When touring the detachments, I came across instances of what we

5 are discussing here, that detachments were engaged contrary to their

6 original purpose and then they hadn't been trained for such specific

7 tasks, and in certain cases they were taken outside of their territory

8 which caused discontent.

9 As an example, I can mention the use of the units of detachments

10 in securing the units of the 15th Brigade.

11 Q. And what kind of unit was the 15th Brigade?

12 A. The 15th Brigade is an armoured brigade predominantly equipped

13 with tanks and APCs. The particular detachment was engaged in securing

14 the materiel and weaponry. This violated the formation structure. In

15 that case, that detachment lost its subordination, it fell out of the

16 chain, and I had to go there on several occasions so as to improve the

17 situation, to improve the way they were organised, and to seek an

18 appointment of an active officer to command the detachment. Up until that

19 moment, a reservist was commanding it.

20 Q. Did you complain to anybody in the 15th Brigade about this?

21 A. In my contact with the brigade commander and the commander of the

22 battalion, whose units were secured by the men from the detachment, as

23 well as in my discussions with the chief of the armoured units within the

24 Pristina Corps.

25 Q. Who was the chief of the armoured units within the Pristina Corps

1 at that time?

2 A. The chief was Colonel Nikolic. I can't remember his first name.

3 Q. Did he tell you why he was using a military territorial detachment

4 consisting of older men, less well trained, and with poorer quality

5 equipment to protect his 15th Armoured Brigade?

6 A. The reason was that they were familiar with the terrain. Some

7 even spoke Albanian, and that was stated as the reason for employing them

8 in such a manner so that they could carry out such specific tasks.

9 Q. You said that you felt that these detachments were being

10 endangered by the decision to assign them to tasks for which they had not

11 been trained. Did you discuss this with anyone else at the Pristina Corps

12 or at the 3rd Army level?

13 A. No. At that time I had already been subordinated to the commander

14 of the corps, and I tried to resolve this on the spot in direct

15 discussions. I toured daily. I would go and see two to three detachments

16 per day and try to deal with the situation right there and then. I spoke

17 with the commander of the 37th Brigade and with the Chief of Staff of the

18 549th Brigade.

19 There were cases in which irrespective of all -- of everything

20 said, some detachments carried out their respective tasks in full and they

21 were even praised for that.

22 Q. Thank you. Let me move on to paragraph 18. You say that although

23 the units of the military district were no longer subordinated to you, you

24 did remain an information addressee for their reports regarding the

25 situation in the field. How often were those reports generated and

1 received by you? Was that on a daily basis?

2 A. The commanders of military sectors subordinated to brigade

3 commanders were not duty-bound to forward reports to me, but they were

4 fair and they would send a copy to me, usually by courier, if possible the

5 same day; if not, they would do that within the next two to three days and

6 they would send two to three daily reports. This particularly applied to

7 Prizren and Pec because of the security situation there and the use of

8 couriers. They would either do that or it would be done via personal

9 contact because some of my people would go to detachments regularly, some

10 assistants, General Dzaklic, Colonel Cvetkovic, the chief of security,

11 Vujisic, and then they would bring back reports which could not have been

12 sent by courier. And when I would receive such reports, two, three, or

13 four of them at the time, I was able to sort of put together a picture of

14 the situation in which the entire detachment was.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, is this a convenient time?

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

18 Well, Mr. Pesic, that completes our court sitting for today. We

19 have to adjourn now until tomorrow. You have to return here to continue

20 your evidence at 2.15 tomorrow afternoon. Meanwhile, it is very important

21 that you do not have any discussion with anyone at all about your

22 evidence, either the evidence you have already given or the evidence you

23 may yet give tomorrow. Talk about whatever you like with whomsoever you

24 like, except the evidence. So that's it for today. Please leave the

25 courtroom with the usher and we'll see you again tomorrow at 2.15.

1 [The witness stands down]

2 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll adjourn until 2.15 tomorrow.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

4 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 23rd day of

5 November, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.

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