1 Monday, 27 October 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everyone in and around the
7 Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
10 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 Could we have the appearances for today, starting with the
13 Prosecution, please.
14 MR. SAXON: Good morning, Your Honours. Dan Saxon with my
15 colleagues, Salvatore Cannata, Carolyn Edgerton, and our case manager,
16 Carmela Javier.
17 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation]: Good morning, Your Honours. Good
18 morning to everyone in the courtroom. It is Novak Lukic appearing for
19 the accused Perisic with Mr. Guy-Smith and our case managers.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Saxon.
21 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the witness will be called and led by
22 Ms. Edgerton.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 Ms. Edgerton.
25 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps we can have the witness brought in. Thank
1 you very much.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please make the declaration.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated, ma'am.
8 And good morning to you.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning to you, too.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Edgerton.
11 WITNESS: SABINA SABANIC
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Examination by Ms. Edgerton:
14 Q. Good morning, Witness. I wonder if you could state your name for
15 the record.
16 A. My name is Sabina Sabanic.
17 MS. EDGERTON: And, Your Honours, this witness will give evidence
18 today in respect of a sniping incident, scheduled sniping incident number
19 8 to the indictment.
20 Q. Mrs. Sabanic, do you remember giving testimony in front of a
21 Trial Chamber of this Tribunal in February of last year, 2007?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In fact, it was in this courtroom, wasn't it?
24 A. Yes, indeed.
25 Q. Now, in preparing for your testimony today, did one of my
1 colleagues read back to you a copy of the transcript of your earlier
2 testimony in 2007 in your own language?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So you understood everything you heard?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, also, preparing to testify today, did you have a chance to
7 read copies of the two previous statements you gave to ICTY
8 investigators; one in 1996 and one in 2006?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you also have an opportunity to look at copies of photos that
11 you had marked during the course of your previous testimony here in 2007?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, I understand, as a result of the review, you wanted to note
14 for the Trial Chamber, first, three small corrections to the transcript
15 of your evidence in the earlier proceedings; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps I could assist everyone by referring to
18 the specific page and line number.
19 Q. And then you could confirm to me, if I understand your
20 corrections accurately.
21 First, on page 1461, line 18, the word "Batika," B-a-t-i-k-a,
22 should be changed to read "Otika." Page 1465, line 14, the words "news
23 station" should be changed to read "next station." And page 1469, line
24 17, the word "wall" should be changed to read "war."
25 Are those the corrections to the transcript you wish to make?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, I understand also that in respect of a photograph you were
3 shown and marked during your earlier testimony, you wish to make a
4 clarification for this Trial Chamber; is that so?
5 A. Yes.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps I could have that photograph called up,
7 please. It should be 65 ter 07188.
8 Q. Do you see a photograph on the screen in front of you?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Is this the photograph that you wish to make a clarification in
11 respect of?
12 A. Yes, it is.
13 Q. What's the clarification you'd like to make today?
14 A. This is the photograph that had been given to me to show where
15 the fire came from. There are three skyscrapers here on the photo, but
16 in Sarajevo
17 Q. Now, in respect of the three skyscrapers shown here on the photo,
18 those are the skyscrapers you marked as being representative of the
19 origin of fire in your previous testimony; is that correct?
20 A. That's correct.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps I could have the witness shown a further
22 photograph, 65 ter number 8600, please.
23 Q. Do you see this second photograph on the screen -- on the screen
24 in front of you?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. Now, based on what you've just said in respect of four
2 skyscrapers and not three, could I ask you this: To your mind, is this
3 an accurate photograph of the area you've described as being the origin
4 of fire of the shot that hit you on 23 November 1994?
5 A. Yes.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have the blank photograph, please, marked
7 as an exhibit, then, Your Honours?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The blank photograph is admitted into evidence as
9 an exhibit. May it please be given an exhibit number.
10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P100, Your Honours.
11 MS. EDGERTON:
12 Q. Now, although I realise you marked a number of photographs during
13 your previous testimony, I'd like to ask you to take the pen on the
14 right-hand side of the monitor in your hand, and so that we're all clear
15 here today, perhaps you could mark, to the best of your recollection, the
16 location at which you were when you realised -- or, the tram you were
17 riding in was when you realised that you had been shot. And perhaps you
18 could mark it with an X.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. Thank you. Now, in your previous testimony, you indicated that
21 you were riding on the tram facing an area you called Grbavica at the
22 moment you were shot; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. Are all of these four skyscrapers in Grbavica?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. To your knowledge, were all four of these skyscrapers, then, in
2 Bosnian Serb-held territory on 23 November 1994?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, does this photograph and the clarification you've made today
5 change your position in any regard with respect to the origin of fire of
6 the shot that hit you?
7 A. No. I don't change anything.
8 Q. Again, to further clarify, is your position that the shot came
9 from any of the three skyscrapers that you marked earlier in your
10 testimony, or in your previous testimony, or any one of these four
12 A. Any one of these four.
13 Q. Thank you. Now, apart from these corrections and clarifications,
14 if I asked you all the same questions today as you were asked during your
15 previous testimony, would you give the same answers?
16 A. I would give the same answers.
17 MS. EDGERTON: That being the case, Your Honours, I would move
18 this photograph, now marked, into evidence and the previous testimony and
19 exhibits marked by this witness in the Dragomir Milosevic case as
20 exhibits, please. May I supply Your Honours with the 65 ter numbers?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The 65 ter numbers of what?
22 MS. EDGERTON: The transcript of Mrs. Sabanic's previous
23 testimony, the statement --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, you may.
25 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. I'll begin with the item I just
1 mentioned; 09295, being the transcript of her previous testimony in the
2 Dragomir Milosevic case; 09289, being her ICTY statement from 1995;
3 09290, being her ICTY statement from 2006; 092, pardon me, 92, being a
4 photograph; 07187, being a photograph; 07188, which was the photograph
5 that she referred to originally now in her testimony; 09293 and 09294,
6 being the last two photographs.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Edgerton. I've lost
8 you at some stage when you said "pardon me." I didn't think -- I don't
9 think you finished the 0 -- the 65 ter number that you were pronouncing.
10 Was it 92 -- 092 what?
11 MS. EDGERTON: I'll just look at my transcript, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm looking at the transcript, actually.
14 MS. EDGERTON: 09292.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: 09292. And that was a photograph?
16 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. So it goes 9295, being the transcript of her
17 testimony; 9289; 90; and 92; and then we move to 7187, 7188, 9293, and
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. All those 65 ter numbers --
20 exhibits with those numbers are admitted into evidence. May they please
21 be given an exhibit number, or exhibit numbers.
22 THE REGISTRAR: The marked photograph 08600 will be Exhibit P101,
23 Your Honours. 65 ter 09295 will be Exhibit P102. 65 ter 09289 will be
24 Exhibit P103, Your Honours. 65 ter 09290 will become Exhibit P104. 65
25 ter 09292 will be Exhibit P105, Your Honours. 65 ter 07187 will be
1 Exhibit P106. 65 ter 07188 will become Exhibit P107. 65 ter 09293 will
2 be Exhibit P108. And 65 ter 09294 will be Exhibit P109, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
4 Madam Registrar, if you might, just for my own edification, what
5 was Exhibit P100?
6 THE REGISTRAR: That was the unmarked photographed 08600, Your
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: 08600?
9 THE REGISTRAR: The photograph on the screen before it was marked
10 by the witness.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. And I thought you said now 8600 is P101?
12 Have we not duplicated something there? When you started now, you said
13 8600 is P101.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry.
15 MS. EDGERTON: The unmarked 8600 is P100, Your Honour; the marked
16 8600 is P101. Especially in -- when we're in e-court, I think it's
17 useful to have an unmarked photograph in there for later purposes.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: But she never marked the previous photograph in
19 this courtroom. The previous photograph which had three skyscrapers had
20 markings from a previous testimony, and she never marked it.
21 MS. EDGERTON: That's correct. And I only tendered that one as
22 part of her 92 ter package. That was 7188. The previous photograph with
23 the three skyscrapers marked during the Dragomir Milosevic testimony was
24 7188. The unmarked photograph with four skyscrapers, the full-on view,
25 was 8600, which we've now marked as P100. The marked full-on four
1 skyscrapers with the X --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm with you.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Oh, thank you, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. We may proceed. Thank you so much.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Very briefly, Your Honours, as has been the
6 practice, I would now like to read a very short summary of the evidence
7 that's now been admitted, Mrs. Sabanic's evidence.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.
9 MS. EDGERTON: At about 4 p.m. on 23 November 1994, the witness
10 was riding a crowded tram in Sarajevo
11 area of Grbavica when she was injured by sniper-fire coming from
12 skyscrapers in Grbavica. Shots were always coming from there. The tram
13 is filled with civilians, mostly women. It had been a peaceful, clear
14 day. The trams didn't run every day, only on the days during cease-fires
15 when there was no shooting. The witness saw no soldiers in the area at
16 the time she was shot, nor any combat between the two armies.
17 That being concluded, nothing further, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 Mr. Lukic.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Sabanic, good morning. My name is
22 Novak Lukic, and I appear for the Defence team of Momcilo Perisic. I
23 will ask you a few questions. You have experience here in the Tribunal.
24 You know that when we speak the same language, you have to make a slight
25 pause after each of my questions so that interpreters can keep up and
1 that we don't overlap.
2 Mrs. Sabanic, throughout the war you lived in Sarajevo
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. You said in your testimony and in your statement that this
5 incident happened when you were going to work, or, rather, when you were
6 coming home from work. Did you work throughout the war?
7 A. I started to work in September 1994 and from then onwards,
8 because of using sick-leave after the incident, I missed some time. But
9 normally I continued to work.
10 Q. In fact, this incident happened about two months after you
11 started working.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. From what I understood, your job was somewhere in the centre of
14 town. Could you tell us more precisely where you worked? I don't need
15 the address, but ...
16 A. I worked in Titova Street, near the eternal flame monument.
17 Q. In your second statement given to the OTP you stated in paragraph
18 6, in rather great detail, that on several occasions during the war in
20 quickly and you'll just confirm if it's correct.
21 You said that before the war you lived in Dobrinja neighbourhood.
22 Then you moved to Fojnica. That's probably when the war started;
24 A. Yes. That was March/April 1992.
25 Q. Then you returned to Sarajevo
1 while; correct?
2 A. On Kosevo hill, correct.
3 Q. Then you lived in Skerliceva Street, probably until September
4 1994; correct?
5 A. I believe I moved to Skerliceva in June 1994, maybe July.
6 Q. And then you moved to Buca Potok, and you said the living
7 conditions were better there but it was more difficult to get to work,
8 and that was at the time when you were wounded you lived in that
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. When did you move to this street, Cobanija?
12 A. I believe it was in 1996.
13 Q. You were probably aware, Mrs. Sabanic - you changed addresses
14 very often - you were probably aware that there were a lot of abandoned
15 apartments in Sarajevo
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You were also probably aware that there were many abandoned
18 apartments formerly belonging to JNA officers and JNA personnel and civil
19 servants who had left Sarajevo
20 A. All I can say is that I never used any of these apartments.
21 Q. That was not my question. My question was: Had you heard that
22 there were such abandoned apartments?
23 A. Yes, I had.
24 Q. Tell me, during the war, what was the source of your information
25 about events and developments in Sarajevo and around Sarajevo
1 A. Well, to the extent that we had electricity, we could get
2 information from the news bulletin on the TV in the evening and from all
3 the other media.
4 Q. And when you were unable to watch or listen to the media, I
5 assume you received information from the people around you; is that
7 A. There were also newspapers.
8 Q. They were published in Sarajevo
9 newspapers regularly and get information from those?
10 A. Yes. The newspaper Oslobodjenje came out regularly.
11 Q. I'll put a few general questions to you to see whether you have
12 any knowledge concerning these issues.
13 In your environment, did you have anyone who was actively
14 involved in the military structures of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
15 either at work, among our colleagues, or in your family, among your
16 neighbours, your extended family, and so on?
17 A. Could you explain what you mean by "military structures," please.
18 Q. Quite simply, a person who was a member of the Army of
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you hear or were you aware that both sides, and when I say
22 "both sides," I mean the Army of Republika Srpska and the Army of
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina, had sniper weapons and mortars?
24 A. I was a civilian and what I experienced on my own skin I know
25 came from the Serbian side. They were shooting at our civilians.
1 Q. But my question was very precise. We'll come to the incident.
2 My simple question was: Were you aware that both sides, to be precise
3 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, also had snipers and mortars? Do you
4 know that?
5 A. No, I don't know that.
6 Q. Would you agree with me that Sarajevo
7 conflict, was a divided city; that the river Miljacka divided two
8 territories, one side controlled by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and
9 the other by the Army of Republika Srpska?
10 A. Unfortunately, yes.
11 Q. You were able to get information from the media and from people
12 you knew were in the BH Army, so did you know that there were between 30
13 and 40.000 members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Sarajevo during
14 the war?
15 A. Believe me, I don't know that.
16 Q. And are you aware that between 1994 and 1995, in that period, a
17 considerable quantity of weapons were delivered to the Army of
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina from outside and that that army became much better
19 armed and better equipped?
20 A. I'm not aware of that either.
21 Q. Are you aware that both sides, and by that I mean the Army of
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Army of Republika Srpska, violated the
23 cease-fires in the course of the war and that both sides were cautioned
24 by UNPROFOR for that reason?
25 A. Believe me, I know only about one side and that's the Serbian
1 side, because I experienced it myself. I felt it on my own skin.
2 Q. So you don't know that the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina violated
3 cease-fires? You don't know that?
4 A. No, I don't know that.
5 Q. You said in your statements and in your testimony in the
6 Milosevic case, and you also confirmed today, that it was common
7 knowledge in Sarajevo
8 from which members of the Army of Republika Srpska fired sniper shots; is
9 that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You also said that this line of fire passed through the buildings
12 of two museums and that this was the most dangerous part of the route you
13 took, and that after that it was a little safer. Did I understand your
14 testimony correctly?
15 A. Yes, that's correct, too.
16 Q. In your testimony in the Milosevic case, Dragomir Milosevic, on
17 page 1469 -- sorry, no, I was right, 1469, you stated that you had never
18 held a weapon in your hands. Do you remember saying that?
19 A. Yes, I do remember.
20 Q. And on the same page, when asked by Their Honours, you said you
21 didn't know from what position it was easier to fire for the person doing
22 the firing.
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you give us a reference for that, Mr. Lukic?
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 1469, from line 15 to line 25.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mrs. Sabanic, in the course of your testimony, when expressly
4 asked by Their Honours, you stated that you assumed the shot was fired
5 from those skyscrapers because that was the side the bullets came from,
6 and in your view it was common knowledge that these were sniper nests, so
7 to speak, on those skyscrapers held by the Serbian army.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat her answer? It was
9 very feint.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, yes, Madam Edgerton.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Please excuse me for the intervention. The
12 interpreters are having a bit of trouble hearing Mrs. Sabanic, I think
13 because you're leaning a bit back in the chair, and they asked her to
14 repeat the last answer because it wasn't interpreted.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you please repeat your last answer, madam.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Do you remember what I asked you?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. That you stated at the time that you assumed that the shots came
20 from that direction because it was common knowledge that snipers were
21 firing from that location. That's what you said.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were you aware that there were also positions of the Army of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina on that side, before the river Miljacka?
25 A. No. No, I wasn't aware of that.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry to do this to you, Mr. Lukic. Your
2 question at line 18, you say that "You stated at the time that you
3 assumed that the shots came from that direction because it was common
4 knowledge that snipers were firing from that location." When you say
5 "stated at that time," are you talking about -- are you referring to the
6 Milosevic testimony, or what are you referring to?
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I was referring to both. I put to
8 the witness what she stated during her testimony in the Milosevic case,
9 at that time, but in that testimony she stated that at the time of the
10 incident it was common knowledge that that was a location where there
11 were Serb forces who were opening sniper fire.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you please give us the reference in the
13 Milosevic transcript where that has been said, where the assumption has
14 been mentioned and where the common knowledge has been mentioned.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. Excuse me.
16 Judge Robinson put his question ...
17 MS. EDGERTON: If it assists at all, I can find two page
18 references, but I don't see the word "assumed" anywhere.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you don't --
20 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps my friend could look at page 1454 and the
21 continuation of the answer at 1455.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No. Please excuse me for a moment.
23 Page 1475. Just a moment. Page 1475 and 1476.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Line reference at 1475?
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] From line 9 to the end of the page
1 and then at the top of page 1476.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, Mr. Lukic, to say "from line 9 to the
3 end of the page," I just want to see the line where the words "assumed"
4 and "common knowledge" are found. Just give me the specific line,
5 because now we're wasting time reading the whole page.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't wish to waste time either,
7 Your Honours. I put my question in the way I did, but I think that the
8 witness's reply is in the same -- is to the same effect, and I think that
9 even the Prosecution stated that in their summary.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Again, you're going to have to give me where they
11 say so in their summary. I'm afraid, Mr. Lukic, if you are not able to
12 refer us to any reference, I'll ask you to rephrase those questions. The
13 statement of common knowledge and assumption, if you cannot give us any
14 reference, would have to be expunged. You would have to rephrase that
15 question, please.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can put the question
17 without referring to the transcript.
18 Q. Was it common knowledge in Sarajevo at the time that shots were
19 fired from those skyscrapers by members of the Army of Republika Srpska?
20 A. That stretch of road where I was wounded was the riskiest, the
21 most dangerous.
22 Q. And what you were aware of as a passenger on that tram running on
23 that line, is that people said or you heard from the media that members
24 of the Army of Republika Srpska were firing sniper shots in that
25 direction; is that right?
1 A. It wasn't just people saying that. It was that there was the
2 largest number of people who were wounded. People who were wounded were
3 mostly wounded on that stretch of road.
4 Q. And in connection with those incidents, the information that was
5 given out was always --
6 A. Yes, because that was the place where people were killed or
7 wounded most often, on that stretch of road.
8 Q. You certainly knew that there were also highrise buildings in
9 areas controlled by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and you stated that
10 when answering questions in the last testimony you gave at this trial,
11 the Energoinvest building, the Unis building, the Marsal Tito barracks,
12 the museums, and so on; is that right? They were on the territory
13 controlled by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
14 A. In the course of my last testimony, I was given pictures where I
15 was supposed to indicate those buildings, the museums, the buildings at
16 Pofalici. I didn't know why I had to indicate them. I only had to
17 indicate them and mark them.
18 Q. That's on the record.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. But the buildings I have just mentioned, they were on the
21 territory held --
22 A. Yes, they were on the other side of the Miljacka, on the other
24 Q. And are you aware that the area of Grbavica was also shelled and
25 that sniper shots were fired also in that period but from the other side?
1 Did you have any information to that effect?
2 A. No, we did not have that information.
3 Q. All right. I'd like to discuss the incident itself, then.
4 A moment ago you were drawing a picture, and I suppose the Trial
5 Chamber understands you were going from town, from the centre of town,
6 and the Miljacka river was on your right.
7 A. No, it was opposite me.
8 Q. All right, opposite.
9 You said it was the last run of the tram for that day. The tram
10 stopped working at 4 p.m.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Tell me, how long had you been in the tram from the time when you
14 got into the tram until the moment you were wounded? How many stops,
15 let's say, or minutes?
16 A. I cannot tell you how many minutes because it was the last tram
17 for the day. You can never say exactly how many passengers are getting
18 on and off. It took longer perhaps than a tram would normally take
20 Q. But we, in the courtroom, we don't know how long it takes from
21 the centre of town to the Marsal Tito barracks. When you got in, was the
22 tram already full? Do you remember that?
23 A. Yes, I do. It was packed, because that stop was -- the tram goes
24 in a circular line in Sarajevo
25 people use the tram just to go one stop further so that they wouldn't
1 walk because it was dangerous. And it probably ran twice as slowly as it
2 does today.
3 Q. You said the tram was packed. Were you able to move through the
4 tram, or did you have to stop at the end of the car where you got in?
5 And that's something I seem to have read in your statement.
6 A. I couldn't move through the tram. As I got in through the door,
7 I stopped there. I didn't move from one section of the tram to another.
8 It was really very crowded and you couldn't move.
9 Q. I'm asking you this because you said in your statement that there
10 were no members of the army in the tram, and I suppose you can't say that
11 with a hundred per cent certainty because you were not able to move
12 through the crowded tram. You could see there were no members of the BH
13 army around you, but you couldn't say that there weren't any in the tram,
14 I suppose.
15 A. Yes. But when we stopped, we all had to get out, so I could see
16 all the people who had been on that tram.
17 Q. In the criminal report it says that there were around 200 people
18 in the tram.
19 A. Well, I don't know about that, but there were many of us.
20 Q. On page 1476 of your testimony, you said you hadn't heard a shot;
21 you just felt pain at that moment.
22 A. Correct.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Your Honours.
24 Q. You also stated on page 1454 that you suppose the shot had come
25 from one of those three skyscrapers that you called "shopping" --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we have the reference, please.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1454. Just a moment.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: What line?
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The question of the Chamber is line
5 24 and the answer is in line 25.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my case it wasn't from the
8 shopping buildings. It's a bit further at Grbavica.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. You mentioned in one statement that it was that area that fire
11 came from.
12 MS. EDGERTON: And, if I may --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Edgerton.
14 MS. EDGERTON: The question at line -- page 20, line 23, says
15 that "at page 1454 of the transcript" the witness "supposed the shot had
16 come from one of those three skyscrapers that you called 'shopping,'"
17 and, in fact, she makes no reference to that name for the skyscrapers in
18 those pages of the transcript.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'll be precise, Your Honours.
21 Her first statement, which is now Exhibit P103, paragraph 10, I
22 quote from the B/C/S version: "I knew that on the tram line there were
23 places that were more dangerous than others because there had been other
24 cases of sniping on the trams." In B/C/S -- sorry. "On the Serb side of
25 the conflict line in Grbavica, in the neighbourhood we called 'shopping,'
1 there are three skyscrapers. This is a place from which fire can be
2 opened on the trams."
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's a location.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mrs. Sabanic, let me ask you this: At any point after this
6 incident and before your testimony and before or after giving a statement
7 to the OTP, had you been in contact with any person from the Agency for
8 Investigation and Documentation or the Security Service of
10 A. You mean after the testimony?
11 Q. No, I mean before.
12 A. I didn't directly talk to anyone after the -- about the case.
13 Q. And why did they contact you, if I may know?
14 A. They contacted me once to take me to Nedzarici so that I could
15 give a statement.
16 Q. I suppose the OTP office was in Nedzarici.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you ever have occasion before your testimony in the Milosevic
19 case to be shown the criminal report and the record of that incident, the
20 police record?
21 A. No.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which incident are we talking about?
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I mean now the incident where the
24 witness was wounded on the 23rd of November, 1994.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Does the name Buco Kemal mean anything to you?
3 A. No.
4 Q. How about the name Hafiza Karadzic?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you recall when the OTP interviewed you the first or the
7 second time, because there were two interviews and also the proofing in
8 the Milosevic case, did anyone from the OTP show you any kind of
9 document, any kind of official document, related to this incident so that
10 you can give your comments? I mean the incident when you were wounded.
11 Apart from sketches and photographs. That is not of interest to me.
12 A. Nothing apart from my statements that I was asked to confirm.
13 Q. In your first statement, which is now P103, you stated in
14 paragraph 4 - and that's how it is recorded in the statement - I quote:
15 "The first thing I heard was the glass shattering." That was recorded in
16 the statement. And at the trial in the Milosevic case you said that was
17 not properly recorded, that you, in fact, had not heard the glass
18 shattering. Is that correct?
19 A. After I gave a statement and after the first reading back of the
20 statement to me, I immediately corrected that. I said I never heard the
21 glass being smashed, and it must be some sort of error that keeps
22 dragging on from the very beginning. But I had corrected it.
23 Q. When did you correct it?
24 A. When I was asked to sign the statement after I first gave it, I
25 stated plainly that, in fact, I hadn't heard the glass being smashed or
1 anything like that.
2 Q. When you were giving your second statement, which is now Exhibit
3 P104, a statement given on the 22nd of May, 2006, your original statement
4 was shown to you, and it still contained the phrase I just read. You
5 made certain corrections to paragraph 2 of that statement, but you had no
6 comment on the paragraph 4. It continued to read: "The first thing I
7 heard was the glass being smashed." Do you have any comment?
8 A. My comment on that is that, since I said the first time it needs
9 to be corrected, it was superfluous to say anything further about that
10 glass because I said when giving the first statement that, in fact, I
11 hadn't heard any such thing.
12 Q. I don't want to dwell on this too much, but after so many years
13 you saw that sentence still there and you didn't ask for it to be
15 A. In the Milosevic trial there was also discussion about that glass
16 and I said once again that I hadn't heard anything and that I had
17 corrected the first statement to that effect.
18 Q. On page 1484 of the Milosevic transcript, you said that once in
19 the hospital you heard another man had been killed in that incident. Do
20 you remember what you said and how it was recorded? If I tell you now
21 that the Office of the Prosecutor, in its indictment, does not mention
22 any other deaths in the incident, would you say that the information you
23 received was inaccurate?
24 A. The lady who lay with me in the same room, in the same ward, had
25 been on the same tram with her husband, and her husband was killed.
1 Q. And you know that the lady next to you was injured?
2 A. Yes. We were there together.
3 Q. All right. And in conclusion I will have just one more question.
4 You said in your first statement given back in November 1995,
5 paragraph 9, you said: "I won't take the tram anymore until peace it
6 restored." Do you remember saying that?
7 A. No, I don't remember saying that, but it seems to me a normal
8 reaction at the time.
9 Q. I'll read it back to you. I quote: "From that day on I'll no
10 longer ride the tram as long as the peace is not restored." When did
11 that occur, in fact?
12 A. I think we felt safer only after the Dayton Accords.
13 Q. It's September 1996.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Edgerton, any re-examination?
18 MS. EDGERTON: Just one question, again to be absolutely clear on
20 Re-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
21 Q. Mrs. Sabanic, at page 21, line 11, of the transcript of the
22 testimony today, you referred to other locations, and I'll quote exactly,
23 you referred -- you stated that "on the tram line, there were places that
24 were more dangerous than others because there had been other cases of
25 sniping on trams." Sorry, I'm quoting Mr. Lukic now, pardon me. "In the
1 neighbourhood we called 'shopping,' there are three skyscrapers. This is
2 a place from which fire can be opened on the trams."
3 Just to be absolutely clear, are those four buildings you
4 identified as the source of the gun-fire from which you were injured the
5 development called "shopping"?
6 A. There's four buildings, but the "shopping" project is a bit
7 further away. But in our colloquial exchanges, everyday exchanges, we
8 used the name "shopping" to refer to that entire area of Grbavica.
9 Q. In -- is the physical appearance of the development called
10 "shopping" different in any way from the four skyscrapers you identified
11 as being the source of fire?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. How?
14 A. "Shopping" has three skyscrapers, and the other development has
16 Q. What colour are the skyscrapers of the "shopping" development?
17 A. I think -- I really can't remember now. I think they are yellow.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MS. EDGERTON: I don't have any other questions, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Edgerton.
21 Judge? Judge, questions? Any questions for the witness? Thank
23 Thank you, ma'am. That brings us to the end of your testimony.
24 On behalf of the Tribunal, I want just to say thank you for coming and
25 taking time to come and testify. You are now excused and you may stand
1 down. And please travel well back home.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
5 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, Mr. Cannata will call the next witness,
6 but I note the time. Would this be the proper time for the first break,
7 or would you rather have the witness?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: We've got about 4 minutes to go before the break
9 is due. Mr. Cannata, would you rather we took the break now?
10 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour, if you can give me a couple of minutes
11 to switch the work station with my colleague Ms. Edgerton.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are welcome to do that. Please do that.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you now better able to answer my question,
15 Mr. Cannata? Okay. You proceed.
16 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour, sorry, it took a little bit longer
17 than you expected.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I asked the question, would you rather we took the
19 break now or -- oh, I realise you want to proceed, but we've got now 2
20 minutes to go before break.
21 MR. CANNATA: Okay. My apologies, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're welcome. We'll swear the witness, and
23 we'll have to take the break after that, maybe.
24 MR. CANNATA: Actually, I had an issue to raise before the
25 witness was to be brought here, but I can actually do it now.
1 Madam Witness has some difficulties in reading and writing. I
2 would therefore ask permission by Your Honours to have the declaration
3 read out to her, if it's not a problem.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: It won't be a problem at all.
5 MR. CANNATA: Thank you, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Usher, would you please read the declaration
7 to the witness and then having read -- first of all, ask her whether she
8 accepts that.
9 I know you don't read B/C/S. Maybe if you read it in English and
10 we can ask the interpreters to interpret it for the witness.
11 THE USHER: I solemnly declare.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare.
13 THE USHER: That I will speak the truth.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I will speak the truth.
15 THE USHER: The whole truth.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The whole truth.
17 THE USHER: And nothing but the truth.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And nothing but the truth.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
20 WITNESS: DERVISA SELMANOVIC
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, ma'am. You may be seated. Thank
23 you so much. Good morning to you.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
1 What do you want to do, Mr. Cannata?
2 MR. CANNATA: Shall we go for the break?
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I think we must apologise to the witness
4 for bringing her in just to take her out again. Our apologies, ma'am.
5 It is time for a break. We'll take a break and come back at a quarter to
6 11.00 when we'll resume. Thank you very much.
7 Court adjourned.
8 --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.
9 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Cannata.
11 MR. CANNATA: Thank you, Your Honours. The Prosecution calls
12 Witness Dervisa Selmanovic. Your Honour, this is a 92 ter witness, so
13 we'll go through the procedure.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
15 Examination by Mr. Cannata:
16 Q. Good morning, Madam Witness. How do you feel today?
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. Madam Witness, could you please state your full name for the
20 A. Dervisa Selmanovic.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 Madam Witness, I do understand that you have some difficulties in
23 reading and writing; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. But I guess -- I take it that you can write your signature, or at
1 least the initials of your full name; is that correct?
2 A. I can write my first and last name. I know how to do that. It's
3 not really done very well, but there it is.
4 Q. That should be enough.
5 MR. CANNATA: Can I please have 65 ter 9296 on the e-court,
6 please, the English version. Thank you.
7 Q. Madam Witness, do you see a document in front of you on your
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Can you see your full name, your signature, at the bottom of this
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. Do you remember that -- whether yesterday this document was read
14 out to you in a language you understand?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, do you confirm that what you say in this document is true
17 and accurate, to the best of your knowledge?
18 A. Yes. It's all true and correct, what I said. Yes.
19 Q. You will give the same answers, you will say the same things
20 today if asked the same questions?
21 A. Yes, the same. I would answer in the same way.
22 Q. Very well.
23 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour, may we have this document entered into
24 evidence, it's 65 ter 9296, the first statement by Madam Dervisa
25 Selmanovic, dated 27 February 1996
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: 65 ter 9296 is admitted into evidence. May it
2 please be given an exhibit number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P110, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
5 MR. CANNATA: Thank you, Your Honours.
6 Can I have please have 65 ter 9297 on the screen now.
7 Q. Madam Witness, do you see a document on your screen?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not yet.
9 MR. CANNATA: Oh, pardon me. It should be there.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
11 MR. CANNATA:
12 Q. At the top -- at the bottom of the page, do you see your
14 A. Yes, I do. Yes.
15 Q. Do you remember whether this document was read back to you
16 yesterday in a language you understand?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, do you confirm that this document -- that what you say in
19 this document is true and accurate, to the best of your knowledge?
20 A. It's true and accurate, yes.
21 Q. And also that you will give the same answers today if asked the
22 same questions?
23 A. I would give the same answers today, yes.
24 Q. Thank you very much, Madam Witness.
25 MR. CANNATA: Your Honours, can I have 65 ter 9297 moved into
1 evidence, please.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's admitted. May it please be given an
3 exhibit number.
4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P111, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
6 MR. CANNATA: Thank you.
7 Q. Madam Witness, do you remember that you testified before in this
8 Tribunal in a different case?
9 A. Yes, I did. Yes.
10 Q. And you testified in the case, the Prosecution versus
11 Dragomir Milosevic. Do you remember that?
12 A. I remember that.
13 Q. Was a copy -- a copy of the transcripts of your testimony in the
14 case, Prosecution versus -- Prosecutor versus Dragomir Milosevic, read
15 out to you yesterday in a language you understand?
16 A. Yes, it was.
17 Q. Did you also have an opportunity to review the exhibits
18 associated with that document, that is, the photograph and the video that
19 you would have viewed yesterday? Did you review it?
20 A. They read it to me, what was in there, and what they asked me
21 about I testified to. And I read it, yes.
22 Q. Do you confirm that what you said in the Prosecutor -- in the
23 case against Dragomir Milosevic was true and accurate, to the best of
24 your knowledge?
25 A. Yes. It was true and accurate.
1 Q. Would you give the same answers today if asked the same
3 A. I would give the same answers today I gave then.
4 Q. Very well. Thank you, Madam Witness.
5 MR. CANNATA: Your Honours, at this time I would like to move
6 into evidence the transcripts and associated exhibits of
7 Madam Selmanovic's previous testimony in the Prosecutor versus
8 Dragomir Milosevic case. I will provide you with the 65 ter numbers;
9 that is, 9299 is the transcript; 8615, 1-5, is the photo, the 360
10 panoramic photo attached to the transcript; and lastly, 65 ter 4333 is
11 the video concerning this witness incident at the timing 00:42:17 to
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Those 65 ter documents are admitted into evidence.
14 May they please be given exhibit numbers.
15 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 09299 will be Exhibit P112. 65 ter 08615
16 will be Exhibit P113. And 65 ter 04333 will be Exhibit P114, Your
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
19 MR. CANNATA: Your Honours, with your leave, at this stage I will
20 read a short summary of Witness Selmanovic's evidence.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.
22 MR. CANNATA: Thank you.
23 Witness Dervisa Selmanovic has given evidence in respect of
24 scheduled incident B9 of the indictment, that is, the incident that
25 occurred on 10 December 1994
1 injured while collecting firewood in the backyard of a house located in
2 Sedrenik Street number 56 in the north-east of Sarajevo. The witness
3 testified that the shots came from Spicaste Stijena as held by the SRK,
4 the Sarajevo
5 knee and was treated at the orthopedic clinic of the Medical Centre of
6 the University of Sarajevo
7 military position anywhere near the area where she was shot. She did not
8 notice any fighting or military activity or military personnel at the
9 time and in the vicinity of the area she was shot.
10 This concludes my examination-in-chief, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I did not
14 wish to interrupt my learned friend, but I have an objection in
15 principle. When statements -- when the statements were shown to the
16 witness, the Prosecutor said, Would you confirm all the questions and
17 answers in the statement, but we see only answers in the statement, not
18 the questions. I assume that's a mistake, so I just wanted to mention
19 that. The questions are there only on the transcripts.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Selmanovic, good morning. My name is
22 Novak Lukic, and I appear on behalf of the Defence team of Mr. Perisic.
23 I will put some questions to you on his behalf.
24 Do you remember that in connection with the incident that took
25 place on the 10th of December, 1994, as mentioned in the indictment, you
1 gave your first statement concerning this incident to the police in
3 1995, that is.
4 A. Yes, I remember that.
5 Q. Do you remember, since you stated that immediately after you were
6 wounded you were released from hospital and sent home practically on the
7 same day, did anyone from the police visit you from the time you were
8 wounded to the time you made this first statement?
9 A. I can't remember that now because it was a long time ago. A lot
10 of years have passed since then.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Cannata.
12 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour, I would say that I would kindly ask
13 the Chamber to direct my learned friend to give reference to passages of
14 statements and transcripts when quoted, and I refer back to you at
15 page 35, line 1, when the Defence asked, "... since you stated that
16 immediately after ..." and then goes on. I would like to have a
17 reference for that quote of the witness's evidence. Thank you.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think the witness mentioned this in
20 more than one place in her statement, but just a moment.
21 Q. Madam, were you released from hospital on the same day, after the
23 A. Yes. Yes, they released me.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May I proceed, Your Honours, and then
25 I'll come to that in order to avoid wasting time. The witness has
1 replied now to that question.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, that's true. But whenever you put a previous
3 statement by the witness to her, we would like you to give a reference.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Yes, Your Honour,
5 I understand. I will adhere strictly to your instructions in future when
6 I put anything to a witness.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. But do come back to this one that the
8 Prosecutor has raised, an issue here that he would like to get --
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honour, yes. I will,
10 certainly. I think I will come to the reference as I proceed with my
11 questions, but if I don't, I will certainly come back to it at the end.
12 Q. You gave your first statement to the OTP on the 27th of February,
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you told them at the time or, rather, you attached the record
16 of the statement made at the police station on the 12th of March, 1995
17 Do you remember that?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. When you made your second statement, the one you gave to the
20 investigators of the OTP, your second statement to the OTP was given in
21 April 1996, and you were given the opportunity of reading all your
22 previous statements, the previous statement given to the Prosecution and
23 the one given to the police. Do you remember that?
24 A. Well, a lot of time has gone by since then, and I can't remember
25 everything now, you know. I'll tell you everything I can remember. What
1 I can't, I can't.
2 Q. Certainly. But let me jog your memory. In your statement given
3 in 2006, in paragraph 3 it says:
4 "Earlier, previously, I gave a brief statement to the
5 investigator of the ICTY. I have now been shown a copy of that statement
6 made on the 27th of February, 1996. I confirm that this is a correctly
7 recorded statement which I gave to the investigator on the 21st of
8 February, 1996."
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Let me finish, please. It says: "I was also shown a copy of the
11 statement I gave to the MUP officers on the 12th of March, 1995, and I
12 have read that statement."
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. "The statement I made on the 12th of March, 1995, is also
15 correctly recorded; however, the date and place of birth are incorrect."
16 So that was the only correction you made.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You also, and this has been admitted into evidence here, met the
19 Prosecution team sometime in the summer of 2006, when there was a
20 reconstruction of the event, and you were filmed using a camera in front
21 of the place where you were hit. Do you remember that?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. And when you testified in the Milosevic case, you were shown all
24 these statements and you confirmed that they were accurate, as you have
25 done today.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Very well. You worked for the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina as a
4 A. An assistant cook. I assisted the cook.
5 Q. Could you please just make a brief pause after my question for
6 the sake of interpretation, to avoid any problems in the transcript.
7 Could you tell us where your place of work was? You said it was
8 at Kosevo.
9 A. Behind the Kosevo Hospital
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the rest of
11 the answer.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, the witness -- the interpreters did not
13 understand the rest of the answer.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Could you please explain more clearly where the place was where
16 you worked at Kosevo.
17 A. It's behind the skyscraper, right under the sky -- underneath the
18 skyscraper, next to the stadium. That's where it was.
19 Q. Were there any civilians living there? Did people live there?
20 A. Yes, yes. There was a skyscraper and just a road in between.
21 Q. Can you tell me what military facilities were there? What was
22 the army doing there? Who was there from the army?
23 A. Well, it was the young men defending the front line. What do I
24 know? I don't know. We took care of the kitchen. I didn't look at
25 anything else.
1 Q. And you said -- I don't want to omit the reference again. But
2 you were advised to take your uniform off when you went home, so you
3 didn't take your uniform away from your place of work.
4 A. I had a uniform, but I never wore it, actually. They gave it to
5 me, but I never wore it. I just wore my civilian clothes.
6 Q. You heard people say that there were snipers all around Sarajevo
7 A. Yes. And yes, there were, because whenever I was going to work,
8 I was always afraid, from Poljo, from Trebevic, from everywhere we were
9 afraid because it came from all sides.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Cannata.
11 MR. CANNATA: Yes. Once again, can I have references for the
12 last two questions, that is, the question at page 38, line -- I'm sorry,
13 line 22, and the next question was at -- well, it was not a question but
14 a statement, but it was page 39, line 2. The references would be very
15 much appreciated. Thank you.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, I just asked the question
18 deliberately not making a reference, and that's what I said, for the
19 record. I did not refer to any specific part of the witness's testimony.
20 I don't think I'm obliged to constantly give references in my
21 cross-examination. I'm just putting questions that the witness is forced
22 to answer.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Cannata, I see you want to stand up.
24 MR. CANNATA: Well, if the Defence is putting previous evidence
25 to the witness by way of using the expression "and you said," meaning the
1 witness, then it would be, I would consider, wise and advisable to have
2 reference to where the witness was supposedly saying what the Defence is
3 putting to the witness.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, at page 38, line 22, you said, "and you
5 said -- and I don't want to omit the reference again. But you were
6 advised to take your uniform off when you went home, so you didn't take
7 your uniform away from your place of work."
8 Now, I did indicate a little earlier this morning that when you
9 do make references to either statements by the witness or to her
10 testimony in the previous cases, please give the reference. And here you
11 specifically said you don't want to admit to the reference again. Your
12 learned friend on the prosecution side would like you to give the
13 reference, and I would like you to please give the reference, Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will then need some time.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then again at page 39, line 2, you say: "You
16 heard people say that there were snipers all around Sarajevo."
17 Again, if you can give your learned friend where you get that
18 statement from.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment. Transcript page 1603.
20 Let me just find it. Page 1603, line 19, is the reference to the
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, page 1603 of the transcript, at line 19, it
23 reads: "In your opinion, Witness, were there a lot of people working for
24 the BiH army but who did not wear their uniform for the same reasons?"
25 That's what I read there.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That includes women. Women also
2 worked there.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah. We understand, madam. If you can just hold
4 on, we're still talking about the lawyer who's asking you questions.
5 You'll answer in a few minutes' time.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Line 12. I apologise, Your Honour.
7 The question was in line 12, and the answer is in line 17, on the same
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Now, again, what is being said at those
10 lines, Mr. Lukic, there's no reference to her leaving the uniform at work
11 when she goes home, which is what you are putting to her. Now, the whole
12 purpose, the whole purpose of giving a reference is to ensure that we
13 don't embellish the evidence.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe my question
15 into English might have been misinterpreted. My question was not that
16 the uniform was left at work. My question was, in fact, that she did not
17 wear a uniform outside her workplace, but I will make the question
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: That didn't come out like that, Mr. Lukic. If you
20 want it read to you, what was translated to the -- on the transcript, it
21 says -- this is, again, page 38, line 22:
22 "And you said -- and I don't want to omit the reference again.
23 But you were advised to take your uniform off when you went home, so you
24 didn't take your uniform away from your place of work."
25 That's how it's translated, and that's what we go by. Now you
1 say you're misinterpreted. Thank you so much. You may proceed.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Witness, do you know whether the army where you were an assistant
4 cook had any snipers?
5 A. Let me tell you, I didn't know anything about that. All I did
6 was work in the kitchen. I didn't deal with anything else. I just went
7 in and out of the kitchen. I had no other business. I peeled potatoes,
8 prepared rice, et cetera.
9 Q. That's all I asked you. When I ask a brief question, you can
10 answer very briefly.
11 You were aware, though, that the separation line, the conflict
12 line, was 200 metres away from the place you worked, approximately. Did
13 you know that?
14 A. What do I know? We just took cover when there was gun-fire. I
15 did not dare look around. I just ran to the nearest shelter when there
16 was gun-fire so as to avoid bullets.
17 Q. Did you know where the separation line was at Sedrenik?
18 A. At Sedrenik, I didn't measure it. I didn't -- well, it was close
19 by. I just don't know.
20 Q. Just give me an answer. That line was approximately 200 metres
21 from the place where you were hit. Do you know that?
22 A. Well, at least as the crow flies, 200 metres it was from
23 Spicaste Stijena.
24 Q. Do you know that the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina held the hill
25 called Grdonja?
1 A. I just told you that I don't know anything about which army was
2 where. All I know is that there was Spicaste Stijena. I knew
3 approximately where our troops were and approximately where the other
4 side's troops were.
5 Q. On page 1594 in the Milosevic trial, you answered one question
6 this way. I'll read it in English.
7 [In English] "Grdonja is the hill in the right by Grdonj 200 or
8 300 metres is Spicaste Stijena."
9 [Interpretation] Do you remember stating this in evidence?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So you will agree that at the time when you stated that you
12 thought that was the distance between the two places.
13 A. I remember saying that and that's, I believe, how it was. That
14 was the distance as the crow flies between Spicaste Stijena and the place
15 where I was hit.
16 Q. Do you know that the BH army members fired from Grdonja and from
17 their own positions they held there at the distance you stated?
18 A. Well, that's too much to ask of me. I don't know that. All I
19 know is that the shot that hit me came from Spicaste Stijena. How they
20 were opening fire, what they were doing, I really can't tell you anything
21 about that.
22 Q. All right. Let me refresh your memory. When you were asked at
23 that Milosevic trial, on page 1603, the question was: "What was the
24 first time you heard that there was gun-fire around Spicaste Stijena?"
25 And you said, in line 5:
1 [In English] "Well, I'm telling you what I know. I know they
2 said, 'They're firing from Spicaste Stijena. Watch out. Take care.
3 They're firing.'"
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. [In English] "That's when I learned from Spicaste Stijena. I
6 hadn't known about it until this happened."
7 [Interpretation] My question is: Did you know that gun-fire was
8 coming from Spicaste Stijena before you were hit?
9 A. Well, I heard before that people were saying, Look out, there is
10 fire coming from Spicaste Stijena. It's not like that place was
11 completely unfamiliar to me. I had family there even before the war, and
12 I lived close by during the war.
13 Q. My question is: Did you know fire was coming from there when you
14 came to live there?
15 A. Most of the fire came from there, sniper fire and other fire.
16 We, who lived there, were targeted the most often.
17 Q. Please try to understand my question. I'm trying to be as
18 precise as I can. Had you heard that gun-fire was coming from that
19 location you mentioned, Spicaste Stijena, only when you came to live in
20 Sedrenik during the war?
21 A. Yes. I heard then people saying, Gun-fire is coming from
22 Spicaste Stijena.
23 Q. You lived in Sedrenik for a number of months; correct?
24 A. I don't know exactly how long. Perhaps it was as long as a year.
25 I was put up there as a refugee.
1 Q. I'll read it back to you to refresh your memory. Just a moment.
2 Your statement of the 20th April 2006, it is now Exhibit Number P111,
3 paragraph 6, you said, quote:
4 "In May 1994 I found a job as assistant cook in the BH army. The
5 army provided me with a small apartment in the street of Zaima Sarca, in
6 which I reside to date."
7 And in paragraph 5, I quote:
8 "Eventually I found a small house in Sedrenik, and that's where I
9 lived for a few months."
10 A. I don't know for how long, but I did live there.
11 Q. But at the time when you were injured, you were not living there?
12 A. I lived in Zaima Sarca Street, but the wood that I needed for
13 fuel was still back there in my previous residence, and I had to collect
14 it to take it to my new apartment.
15 Q. That's what I want to clarify, because in your statement it seems
16 that the OTP, in fact, said that you were living there when you were
17 shot, and from all your other statements it transpires that at the time
18 you were already living in Zaima Sarca Street.
19 A. I lived in both places practically at the same time. I had to go
20 back to my previous residence in emergencies.
21 Q. Please try to remember that. I don't want to push you. But on
22 the day when the incident happened, from the apartment where you had
23 moved in, you went back to your previous residence to get firewood.
24 A. Well, I really can't remember that precisely.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Cannata.
1 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour, I have an issue here. It's page 45,
2 line 8, and I quote: "Because in your statement it seems that the OTP,
3 in fact, said that you were living there ..."
4 Can I ask you for a reference for that statement -- that
5 proposition by the Defence? Instead, it's not -- in the indictment, it's
6 not alleged that Witness Selmanovic was living in the apartment -- in
7 house in Sedrenik Street number 56 where she was shot.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I did not mention the indictment at
10 all, Your Honours. I heard today from my learned friend the Prosecutor,
11 when he was reading the summary, that she was injured outside her place
12 of residence.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: What was read out today was that the incident
14 occurred on the 10th of December, 1994, when Witness Selmanovic was shot
15 and injured while collecting firewood in the backyard of a house located
16 in Sedrenik Street, number 56, in the north-east of Sarajevo
17 reference to her -- that place being her residence.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I had really understood the
19 Prosecutor as saying that this was her house, her place of residence.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: When the Prosecutor read out that summary, he read
21 out from a piece of paper and I have the piece of paper here, and I'm
22 reading exactly what I thought he read at the time.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Witness --
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am asking this for a
1 very simple reason, that is, that it wasn't clear during the Milosevic
2 trial, it wasn't clear to me and I wanted to clarify it with the witness,
3 because as she described her life at the time, I had understood that she
4 was living there, which was clashing with what I knew from other sources
5 that at the time she was already living somewhere else.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: That may very well be true and correct, Mr. Lukic,
7 and you do need to make those clarifications. But in doing so, don't
8 confuse us further, you know, because you're now attributing to the
9 Prosecution statements that I don't see anywhere, and in the process now
10 I'm getting lost, because I'm trying to find out in my mind where was it
11 alleged that it was in her residence when she got injured. And sitting
12 here I'm trying to recollect from my reading of her statement, my
13 remembrance is that she moved from her residence to a place somewhere to
14 go and collect wood, and it was there that she was injured. Now, how you
15 come to that conclusion, I'm a bit lost.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I want to find it in the Milosevic
17 transcript. Just a moment, Your Honours, please.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: By all means, sir. And I hope you do appreciate
19 the importance, therefore, of --
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- giving references when you put previous
22 statements to the witness.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Madam, you don't recall or you do recall whether at that time, on
25 the day when the incident occurred, you were there.
1 A. I was there. Where was I? I was there. I know that. That's
2 where I was wounded.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you say "you were there," I don't understand
4 what you mean? Where? Where, Mr. Lukic? Sorry.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm referring to the location where
6 she was hit in front of the shed where she was collecting wood.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. And I think if you go to paragraph 3 of her
8 statement of 12th of March, you will see there where she says she was
9 when she got hit.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you will see that that wasn't her current
12 residence, in fact.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Correct. That's how I understand the
14 statement. In the transcript there was mention of the fact -- in
15 cross-examination she was asked where she was residing at the time she
16 was injured, and I wanted to see whether it was necessary to refer back
17 to the statement made to the police, because there it's stated precisely.
18 May I proceed?
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Proceed, sir.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. When you were asked on page 1598 in the Milosevic case --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you give us the lines, please.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
24 Q. You were asked by Judge Mindua, line 10:
25 [In English] "The noise that you heard and that you heard also
1 that day when you were hit, were they coming from the same direction or
2 from various directions?"
3 [Interpretation] Your answer was?
4 A. From Spicaste, that was the closest part. That's where it came
5 from. We heard the whiz of the bullet, and then it hit.
6 Q. I will read to you what you said then.
7 [In English] "I cannot tell you that. I don't know. I don't
8 know. I cannot say. There was shooting, and you'd be hiding in the
9 house most of the time. You know, you just hear shooting, and you run
10 away to seek shelter."
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Cannata.
12 MR. CANNATA: My apologies again, but before the witness answers,
13 can I -- in order to avoid any misunderstanding between my learned friend
14 and the witness, can I suggest that it's made clear that the answer
15 quoted by the witness, which I quote "I cannot tell you that, I don't
16 know," and so on, refers to the question asked by His Honour Judge Mindua
17 about not the shot that hit the witness but other shooting going on that
18 day, which can be inferred by the very same question by Judge Mindua, so
19 that we avoid that the witness might answer with a wrong understanding of
20 the question. I don't know if I made myself clear but ...
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not to me. I don't know whether your learned
22 friend understood you.
23 Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to ask the witness a very
25 precise question.
1 Q. You were hit. After that you say you heard 20 or 30 more shots;
2 is that correct?
3 A. The bullets were raining down, "pu, pu, pu, pu, pu."
4 Q. Well, let me ask you: This shooting that was heard, how many
5 bullets were there, according to you? Can you remember?
6 A. How could I remember when they were shooting and I was hit by a
7 bullet and then I thought only of myself.
8 Q. Were there 20, 30, or more bullets?
9 A. What do I know? It was just a shower of bullets. How could I
10 count them?
11 Q. Well, let me ask you: Do you know what a burst of fire is --
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. -- a burst from an automatic weapon?
14 A. Yes. Those are small bullets like infantry, and all of a sudden
15 they just --
16 Q. On that occasion did it sound to you like automatic fire?
17 A. I can't remember every detail. What do I know? I just know that
18 we were afraid, and we had to flee and run for shelter every day. And
19 then I thought, Well, they won't fire now. I went to collect some wood,
20 and when I least expected it, they were constantly shooting. They were
21 always shooting, but ...
22 Q. You don't have to reply at such length. I simply asked you
23 whether the fire you heard afterwards sounded like automatic fire or like
24 individual shots. Do you know?
25 A. Well, believe me, I don't remember that. I can't tell you that.
1 I only know that there was shooting, but I can't remember that detail.
2 Q. But before that you didn't hear a single shot fired that day?
3 A. Well, there was never a day without any shooting at all. There
4 was never such a day, nor could there be such a day, or hour or minute,
5 without something happening. But, you know, it was long away, and then
6 it wouldn't be afraid, and if it was close by, then you'd be afraid.
7 Q. Well, can you tell me precisely whether you remember on that day,
8 before you were hit, when you went to that place where you were
9 collecting firewood, did you hear shooting?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 In your statement to the OTP, you said, referring to
13 Spicaste Stijena, that --
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And that's in paragraph 3, Your
15 Honours, of the first statement, Exhibit 110.
16 Q. "The snipers were constantly shooting from that position."
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. "From there, there was constant sniper fire. Those positions
19 were held by the Chetniks."
20 In paragraph 4 you say: "I was perhaps a kilometre away from the
21 sniper position, but the sniper could clearly see I was a civilian and a
23 A. Yes, that's correct, he could have seen that.
24 Q. Well, I'm asking you how you know that.
25 A. Well, because it's nearby and because they have equipment which
1 enables them to see.
2 Q. You were aware that a sniper can make such distinctions at the
3 distance of a thousand metres, that they could tell who was a civilian?
4 A. How would I know? I'd never seen a war before. I'd never been
5 in a war before that. How would I know such things?
6 Q. You didn't see where the shot that hit you came from. You just
7 felt pain in your knee.
8 A. I felt something like a large stone hit me. He fired until he
9 hit me.
10 Q. Could you just answer my question, please. You did not see from
11 where the bullet that hit you came. That's what I'm asking you. Yes or
13 A. No, I didn't see.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 A. But Spicaste was there.
16 Q. Very well. You sustained a slight physical injury on that day
17 and were released home on the same day; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you remember whether you were given a medical report?
20 A. They told us that on the next day I should come again for my
21 dressing to be changed on the wound, and nothing else.
22 Q. Well, did they give you a piece of paper?
23 A. I beg your pardon?
24 Q. Did you get a document from the hospital?
25 A. Yes, I did get a letter of discharge.
1 Q. Did you give it to the police or the OTP? I apologise for
2 asking, if you don't remember.
3 A. I don't remember. How could I remember that so many years later?
4 There are too many questions.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm asking this, Your Honours,
6 because in the Dragomir Milosevic judgement, in paragraph 357 and
7 footnote 1269, I found mention of a medical report under seal. But I'll
8 see that with the OTP later on. I never had a chance to see this medical
9 report, and there were certain discrepancies.
10 Q. You were hit with only one bullet; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Cannata.
13 MR. CANNATA: One clarification. The document my learned friend
14 is referring to is 65 ter 5 -- 4522. It's a medical report tendered
15 under seal in the Dragomir Milosevic case. It was disclosed as part of
16 the additional exhibits to this witness but it wasn't tendered to date.
17 But it was disclosed to the Defence. And actually, it was disclosed on
18 16 March 2007
19 possession of this document. Thank you.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Cannata, when you say "it was disclosed
21 as part of additional exhibits to this witness but it wasn't tendered to
22 date," I'm not quite sure I understand. Disclosed to the witness or
23 disclosed to the Defence?
24 MR. CANNATA: It was disclosed to the Defence.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: There's a response there, Mr. Lukic. I don't
1 know --
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. When I was looking at the
3 documentation -- well, now it's been clarified, so I will clarify this
4 with other witnesses who will be testifying about the investigation.
5 Q. So I'll just put a few more brief questions to you, madam.
6 You said in your statements that the bullet came from the left,
7 from the direction of Spicaste Stijena; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And that's what you said when you testified in the
10 Dragomir Milosevic case.
11 A. Correct.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'll now ask my learned friends from
13 the OTP if they can play for us a video which is now in evidence, and
14 it's number 114. It's the 42nd minute, 16 seconds, 42:16 is the time,
15 and it's the reconstruction of the event you will recall.
16 Q. We'll look at that, and then I'll ask you to comment on it.
17 [Videotape played]
18 "MR. HOGAN: Witness, at this point I would like you to please to
19 point to the location on your body where the bullet hit you on the 10th
20 of November 1994.
21 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]
22 "MR. HOGAN: Thank you.
23 "Can you please assume the position how you were positioned on
24 that day?
25 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]
1 "MR. HOGAN: Thank you.
2 "And finally, can you please point to the location, rather, the
3 direction from which you believe the shot came from that wounded you on
4 that day.
5 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]
6 "MR. HOGAN: Thank you."
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Well, now I would like to clarify some points. You indicated the
9 right side. Just let me put the question to you. I don't want to
10 confuse you. I just want to clarify. You indicated a direction to the
11 right, although you always said you had been hit on the left-hand side.
12 So my question is: Regardless of what's left and what's right, did you
13 indicate the direction of Spicaste Stijena in this video or the opposite
15 A. I do apologise. I knew at the time I had made a mistake. I
16 indicated with my right hand. I should have indicated with my left. I
17 was confused at the time but, I corrected that afterwards.
18 Q. It doesn't matter what hand you used but the direction you
19 indicated. It depends on how you turn. But the direction you indicated,
20 is that the direction of Spicaste Stijena, or is it the opposite
22 A. Well, let me tell you, the direction was to the left. I should
23 have indicated Spicaste Stijena to the left, but I made a mistake and I
24 pointed to the right.
25 Q. So may I conclude that you were pointing in a direction which is
1 not the direction where Spicaste Stijena are located?
2 A. I know it came from the side of the Spicaste Stijena, and I
3 should have indicated that side but I indicated the opposite side. I had
4 made a mistake, and I corrected it afterwards.
5 Q. So do I conclude correctly that when you indicated where you had
6 been hit from on this video, you were not pointing in the direction of
7 Spicaste Stijena.
8 A. No, I wasn't, but I was mistaken. I saw that I was mistaken and
9 I corrected my mistake. I was confused.
10 Q. Well, do you sometimes, when you're talking to friends, for
11 example, chatting, do you sometimes mistake right and left?
12 A. Well, one can always make a mistake. As one ages, anything can
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, what do you want to do with that video
17 clip that you played?
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This video is already in evidence.
19 It's P111. I just wanted it shown to the witness.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me correct myself. It's Exhibit
22 114, at 42 minutes, 18 seconds.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.
24 Ma'am, before the Prosecutor asks you, can you clarify something
25 for me? You've just said that you made a mistake by pointing to the
1 right; you should have pointed to the left. Then if you point to the
2 left -- just wait for my question. If you then point to the left, then
3 the bullet should have hit you on the inside of your knee, not on the
4 outside of the knee, as you showed us on the video. Are you able to
5 explain that?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me tell you, that's how
7 it was. It hit me on the inside and exited on the outside. I really
8 lost track of everything when it happened. I don't even know how it
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 Any re-examination, Mr. Cannata?
12 MR. CANNATA: Yes, with your leave, Your Honours, I have a few
13 questions to ask.
14 Actually, on this note, can I take the witness to page 1593 of
15 the transcripts, which is P112.
16 Re-examination by Mr. Cannata:
17 Q. And I quote from line 3, as a question from the Prosecution
18 counsel, Mr. Doherty. The question goes:
19 "Also you indicate on the video that the bullet entered your knee
20 on the outside, and in your statement you said it entered your knee on
21 the inside. Are you aware of that discrepancy also?"
22 The witness answered: "I know that I started walking and that it
23 was the inner side."
24 Witness, Madam Witness, do you confirm that that's your answer
25 and that that's what actually happened?
1 A. That happened, but what do I know? I was scared. When the
2 bullet hit me, I no longer had my wits about me. You know how these
3 moments are.
4 Q. Thank you. I have a few more questions on a different topic.
5 Madam Witness, what did you do as an assistant cook? What were
6 your duties?
7 A. I peeled potatoes, I prepared rice, I washed dishes, that sort of
9 Q. Were you engaged in any combat operations?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you carry any weapons on account of your work?
12 A. No. What are you talking about?
13 Q. Were you wearing any uniform?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Were you wearing any -- wearing any uniform inside the building
16 you were performing your duties as an assistant cook?
17 A. I did not, no.
18 Q. Were you wearing a uniform or -- were you wearing a uniform the
19 day you were shot?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you have any weapons with you the day you were shot?
22 A. No way.
23 Q. Thank you. How long have you been living in Sedrenik, roughly?
24 A. Well, I don't know exactly. I cannot tell you precisely whether
25 it was a year or less than a year. I didn't keep track because I didn't
1 know somebody would ask me one day.
2 Q. But even after the incident, you kept going to Sedrenik, weren't
4 A. I have family there. I went there to visit, and I still go there
5 regularly to Sedrenik. That's where my family is.
6 Q. Can I read something to you, which is adjudicated fact number
7 122, which was admitted by this Honourable Chamber.
8 MR. CANNATA: Can I, Your Honour?
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Adjudicated fact from which case?
10 MR. CANNATA: From this case. It's one of the facts in Annex A
11 to the Prosecution's motion for judicial notice of adjudicated facts in
12 respect of Sarajevo
13 decision was delivered in this case on the 26th of June, 2008.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, you may proceed.
15 MR. CANNATA:
16 Q. This is --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Mr. Lukic?
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We just didn't understand what the
19 purpose of this was. Did the Prosecutor want to indicate a reference
20 with this question?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, he was trying to answer the question from
22 the Bench, "adjudicated facts from which previous case," and then he
23 referred to "adjudicated facts with respect to Sarajevo
24 to find out is which case was -- in which case were those facts
1 MR. CANNATA: The Galic case, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Galic case.
3 MR. CANNATA: Galic case.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.
5 MR. CANNATA:
6 Q. Witness, I'll read a sentence to you:
7 "Civilians in the area of Sedrenik experienced indiscriminate or
8 direct small-arms fire originating from Spicaste Stijena, SRK-controlled
9 territory, between September 1992 and August 1994."
10 Would you agree with this sentence?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: I think this is leading question anyway.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Cannata.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, ma'am, don't --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- that it was dangerous --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, ma'am, before you answer. There's an
18 objection, Mr. Cannata, that you are asking a leading question.
19 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour, in fact, it's not. This is
20 adjudicated fact 122. It's part of the trial record. I'm putting to the
21 witness this sentence. I will ask her to make comments on that.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: My only question to you would be: How does it
23 arise from cross-examination?
24 MR. CANNATA: My understanding of the cross-examination main line
25 was that it's being contested that the shooting at civilians which the
1 area of Sedrenik experienced throughout the war was part of an exchange
2 of fire, while the Prosecution's submission is that it originated from a
3 sniper position, Spicaste Stijena, held by the SRK throughout the whole
4 siege, that is, from September 1992 to -- as far as the adjudicated fact
5 is concerned, August 1994.
6 What I would like the witness to tell us is whether this pattern
7 of fire against civilians originating from Spicaste Stijena carried out
8 throughout November 1995, with your leave.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Again, sorry, ma'am. Just before -- but the time
10 range that you put in your question - let me just hold it before it
11 disappears - had nothing to do with November 1994, sir. You said "August
12 1994." You didn't say "November." I beg your pardon. I'm with you.
13 MR. CANNATA: May I proceed?
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: But be that as it may, I still don't see how the
15 adjudicated fact from the Galic case with respect to September 1992 to
16 August 1994 arises from cross-examination. The testimony of this witness
17 is that she was injured on the 10th of December, which is outside that
18 period that you are asking here about.
19 MR. CANNATA: I understand, Your Honour. May I rephrase the
20 question, then?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may, sir.
22 MR. CANNATA:
23 Q. Madam Witness, are you aware of civilians being --
24 MR. CANNATA: Hold on one second, Your Honour.
25 Q. Madam Witness, are you aware of any sniping incident that
1 occurred in Sedrenik from the day you were shot onwards, from the 10th of
2 December, 1994, onwards? Were you aware of any such incident?
3 A. It happened every day. Somebody was hurt every day. Somebody
4 was wounded, hit by a bullet, every day. I can't know after all this
5 time, I can't remember all of that. It happened every day. They shot
6 every day.
7 Q. Who are "they"? Who are the people shooting from Spicaste
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I suppose that from my
11 cross-examination and the entire testimony of this witness, the answers
12 regarding Spicaste Stijena are very clear. I believe the Prosecutor is
13 now going beyond the 92 statement and is trying to get some different
14 answers from the witness.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Cannata, any response?
16 MR. CANNATA: Yes. I just wanted to clarify for the record, in a
17 clear way, what the witness has previously testified about on the first
18 statement, paragraph 3, last line, which I quote --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, but what the witness has previously testified
20 about, the Trial Chamber is perfectly in a position to see when it reads
21 that portion, when the time comes.
22 MR. CANNATA: Then I have no further questions, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Cannata.
24 Any questions? Any questions, Judge?
25 Thank you very much, Mrs. Selmanovic, for coming to testify in
1 this case. This brings us to the conclusion of your testimony. You are
2 now excused. You may stand down. And please travel well back home.
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
5 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I am aware of the time. The Prosecution
6 had hoped to have its next witness originally scheduled to begin tomorrow
7 morning ready to continue on today, Monday; however, the witness's plane
8 was late yesterday arriving into the Netherlands, so the witness was not
9 able to review her materials until -- literally, it's ongoing right now.
10 So we do not have another witness to present today.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: For the day, okay. Thank you very much.
12 In that event, then, we'll stand adjourned to tomorrow, at 9.00
13 in the morning, in Courtroom III. That's what my schedule says. Unless
14 somebody has got a more updated schedule. Courtroom III?
15 MR. SAXON: I looked at the court calendar this morning, and I
16 believe it said Courtroom II, Your Honour, but I could ...
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would like
18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I am instructed then that I am mistaken, that it
20 will then be Courtroom II. We'll meet in here at 9.00 in the morning,
21 Courtroom II. Court adjourned.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.08 p.m.
23 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day of
24 October, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.