Page 6516
1 Tuesday, 26 May 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the
6 courtroom.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
10 The Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
12 May we have the appearances for today, starting with the
13 Prosecution.
14 MR. HARMON: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
15 counsel. Good afternoon to everyone in the courtroom. My name is
16 Mark Harmon, appearing with me is Carmela Javier.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Harmon.
18 MR. HARMON: Thank you.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: And for the Defence.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Good afternoon Your Honours. Good afternoon to
21 everyone in and around the courtroom. Daniela Tasic, Chad
22 Milos Androvic, Eric Tully, Tina Drolec, Novak Lukic, and I'm
23 Gregor Guy-Smith on behalf of the Defence.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Just before we proceed just to
25 place on the record that the Chamber is sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis
Page 6517
1 this afternoon as Judge David is unavailable. He is held up in the Lukic
2 and Lukic matter.
3 Mr. Harmon.
4 MR. HARMON: We would call Richard Butler, Your Honour, as our
5 next witness.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, sir.
9 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, sir.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Will you please make
11 the declaration.
12 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
13 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Thank you so much. You
15 may be seated.
16 WITNESS: RICHARD BUTLER
17 Examination by Mr. Harmon:
18 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Butler. Could you state your full name and
19 spell your last name for the record?
20 A. Yes, sir. My name is Richard Butler, last name B-u-t-l-e-r.
21 Q. Mr. Butler, did you provide me with a revised curriculum vitae
22 while you were here in The Hague
23 A. Yes, sir, I did.
24 Q. Could I have displayed on the monitor, Your Honours, document
25 identification 0649-8346, please.
Page 6518
1 Mr. Butler on the monitor in front of you is a document that at
2 the top of which it says curriculum vitae 1 February, 2009, and has your
3 name on it. Is this a copy of the revised curriculum vitae that you
4 provided me with?
5 A. Yes, sir, it is.
6 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, could that be given an exhibit number,
7 please.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's given a number, and may it please be --
9 that's admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2386.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
12 MR. HARMON:
13 Q. Mr. Butler, this is an extensive curriculum vitae. It's six
14 pages long. I would rather summarize your qualifications, which are set
15 out in this curriculum vitae. I'm going to identify a number of facts
16 from it, and I'm going to ask you merely to affirm if what I have said is
17 accurate.
18 So, first of all, Mr. Butler, your current occupation is a
19 criminal research specialist at the United States Department of Homeland
20 Security Immigration and Customs Enforcement, and you have been holding
21 that position since 2004. Is that correct?
22 A. Yes, sir, that is correct.
23 Q. You are a professional -- you have been a professional
24 intelligence officer for 27 years, having served in a variety of military
25 intelligence and civilian law enforcement intelligence positions. You
Page 6519
1 have received intelligence training at the Federal Law Enforcement
2 Training Centre and at the US Army Intelligence Centre and school.
3 Is that correct?
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 Q. In respect of the events that occurred in Srebrenica, you have
6 prepared a number of reports at the request of the Office of the
7 Prosecutor. You also provided expert testimony about the events in
8 Srebrenica in the Krstic case, the Blagojevic and Djokic case, the
9 Popovic et al case, and in the Krstic appeal before this Tribunal.
10 Is that correct?
11 A. Yes, sir, it is.
12 Q. In addition, Mr. Butler, you have been qualified as an expert
13 witness beside this court in US federal district court and US immigration
14 courts and in the Special War Crimes Chamber of the state court of Bosnia
15 and Herzegovina
16 Is that correct?
17 A. Yes sir, it has.
18 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I have prepared hard copies of
19 Mr. Butler's expert reports, and I would ask that -- Mr. Butler be
20 provided with copies of those reports so he can refer to them during the
21 course of his evidence, with the Court's consent, and I have discussed it
22 with the Defence, and they have no objection.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you confirm, Mr. Guy-Smith?
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: I do.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Yes, you may.
Page 6520
1 MR. HARMON:
2 Q. Mr. Butler, I'm going to identify the six reports that are going
3 to be -- that have been admitted into evidence pursuant to a
4 Trial Chamber decision of 4 March 2009
5 will identify them, first of all, by exhibit number and then by title of
6 the report. There's P2244; which is the VRS corps command responsibility
7 report; Prosecution Exhibit 2245, which is the Srebrenica military
8 narrative Operation Krivaja; 2246, which is Srebrenica military narrative
9 revised, Operation Krivaja 95; 2247, chapter 8 analytical addendum to the
10 Srebrenica military narrative revised; P2248, VRS brigade command
11 responsibility report; and P2249, VRS Main Staff command responsibility
12 report.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please slow down.
14 MR. HARMON: All right. I apologise to the interpreters.
15 Q. Mr. Butler, did you prepare each of those reports?
16 A. Yes, sir, I did.
17 Q. Now, I would like to focus on what I will call the narrative
18 reports which are P2245, P2246, and P2247. First of all, Mr. Butler, in
19 respect of P2245 and P2246, did you direct my attention to an error that
20 was in each of those reports?
21 A. Yes, sir, I did.
22 MR. HARMON: If we could, first of all, have on the screen,
23 P2245, and if we could turn to page 21 of the English, and page 23 of the
24 B/C/S.
25 Well, I -- I'm not sure in 2245 if that is the ... it's page 21
Page 6521
1 of the English in P2245.
2 [Prosecution counsel confer]
3 MR. HARMON: I'm informed that's page 28 of e-court.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm just --
5 MR. HARMON: It's paragraph 4.6 in the English.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excellent, thank you. Just briefly, since you
7 mentioned it, he directed your attention to an error, I have not received
8 any proofing notes. Are there any?
9 MR. HARMON: I sent an e-mail to you yesterday, identifying the
10 -- Ms. Javier did, identifying the error, and there are no proofing
11 notes.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Apart from that?
13 MR. HARMON: Yeah.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay, very well. Thank you so much.
15 MR. HARMON:
16 Q. Now, Mr. Butler, I would like to direct your attention, if I
17 could, to paragraph 4.6 in this report.
18 Can you identify the error and tell us what correction you would
19 like to make in paragraph 4.6.
20 A. Yes, sir. In paragraph 4.6, the second to the last sentence
21 referring to the presidents of the civilian commissioner for Srebrenica
22 Mr. Miroslav Deronjic and Ljubisav Simic needs to be struck, as well as
23 footnote citation 105. That is incorrect.
24 Q. All right. Mr. Butler, if we turn to the Prosecution
25 Exhibit 2246, again, referring to paragraph 4.6. And I will give you the
Page 6522
1 e-court page.
2 MR. HARMON: Pages 40 and 41, please.
3 Q. Mr. Butler, paragraph 4.6, it goes over to the next page as well,
4 but do you see an error in paragraph 4.6, and would you like to correct
5 it?
6 A. Yes, sir. Again, the second to the last sentence in the
7 paragraph discussing the presence of Mr. Deronjic and Mr. Simic, that
8 sentence needs to be struck, as well as footnote citation 215.
9 Q. So the identical error appeared in both reports?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 With that correction completed, Mr. Butler, I'd like to turn to
13 Prosecution Exhibit 2245 again. And in the introduction to that report,
14 you identified the tasks, the primary objectives, that you had been given
15 in respect of preparing this particular report.
16 Could you just refer to the introduction of this report and in
17 the -- identify, if you would do so, Mr. Butler, what your primary
18 objectives were in respect of the preparation of this report.
19 A. Well, as noted in the second and third paragraph in the
20 introduction, my objectives in this particular report were related to
21 proceedings of the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Krstic. In that respect,
22 my first mission was to detail the linkage with respect to the
23 Drina Corps commander, his staff, his subordinate units with the criminal
24 acts as charged in the indictment.
25 The second objective dealt with the issue of the specific role
Page 6523
1 and responsibilities of General Krstic within the framework of the army
2 of the Republika Srpska. First as the Chief of Staff and
3 Deputy Commander of the Drina Corps, and later as the commander of the
4 Drina Corps during the period of the crimes.
5 Q. Now, Mr. Butler, you prepared a revised narrative, which is
6 P2246, about two years later.
7 Can you tell us what the objectives were in respect of P2246.
8 A. Yes, sir. Those are laid out in the third and fourth paragraph.
9 This revised narrative was in response to the trials of Vidoje Blagojevic
10 and Dragan Jokic, both of whom were individuals at the brigade level,
11 rather than corps level for the same crime base. So my goal was to then
12 to examine in detail the issue of their particular roles and
13 responsibilities within the army of the Republika Srpska during the
14 period within the context of a brigade, as well as to determine what
15 linkage there was with respect to documents and other materials dealing
16 with the involvement of those particular brigades with the crime scenes
17 as charged.
18 The third component of this was also to continue to deal with the
19 issue of the ongoing appeal of General Krstic, and in that respect to
20 update information that had come in the possession of the Office of the
21 Prosecutor relating to issues that were active under appeal, particularly
22 with respect to the point in time that he assumed command of the Drina
23 Corps.
24 Q. Now, Mr. Butler, in your introduction in Prosecution Exhibit 2246
25 on page 1V, middle of the page, you identify the methodology that you
Page 6524
1 used as primarily a document based analytical approach.
2 Was this methodology used in both reports?
3 A. Yes, sir, it was.
4 Q. Can you explain what you mean when you say a document based
5 analytical approach?
6 A. In describing it, it represents the fact that the material
7 available that I used for my military analysis for the most part
8 consisted of documents and other like information that was in the
9 possession of the Office of the Prosecutor. Those included military
10 records from the various military units of the Drina Corps. We call
11 documents, but it -- somewhat separate is the intercepts of Bosnian Serb
12 army communications that were in transcript form that we had possession
13 of. It included material derived from open source media. Could be
14 newspapers, it could be videos, could be other types of information like
15 that. What it does not include as a general rule is witness statements
16 or witness testimony, because I was cognizant obviously at the time that
17 it is the role of the Trial Chamber to ultimately hear that type of
18 testimony from the witnesses involved. So where I do incorporate witness
19 testimony into these narrative reports, it is only for the purpose of
20 setting the context of the act as it occurred. It is not for individuals
21 to rely on as either a definitive version of what happened or why. It
22 just sets the context so that when I explain and lay out where the
23 documents and where intercepts and where other pieces of information fit
24 in context to that, the reader has the -- the ability to do that.
25 Q. Now when you say open source, did that include military
Page 6525
1 magazines? Magazines from the VRS, for example?
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: I request that Mr. Harmon does not lead.
3 MR. HARMON: I'm trying to get through this element fairly
4 quickly. I will withdraw the question.
5 Q. Can you expand on what you mean by open source materials,
6 Mr. Butler? Be more detailed and more precise.
7 A. Yes, sir. It would include print media from western sources. It
8 would include print media from Bosnia
9 Republika Srpska. It did include military magazines. It included
10 civilian magazines. It included video that was both broadcast on air as
11 well as private video that was taken from a number of sources. It would
12 include that broader genre of information that's normally associated with
13 media reporting.
14 Q. And, Mr. Butler, what selection criteria did you use when you
15 were going through this -- this group of documents that you considered?
16 A. The selection criteria was only limited on the basis of the
17 actual conduct of the crime as charged by the Office of the Prosecutor.
18 It's not my goal in either of these reports to lay out either a
19 definitive history of East Bosnia or even the Srebrenica crime base. So
20 to that respect, the initial goal as reflected by the early versions of
21 the narrative reflect the period of 1 through 30 July 1995 as the period
22 of the initial crimes related to Srebrenica and follow on through August,
23 September, October, because of the involvement of various units of the
24 Drina Corps in the process of concealing the crimes by exhuming and then
25 later reburying the victims of those crime. It does not go into great
Page 6526
1 detail into the events that occurred prior to that, only to set up
2 context, or after that.
3 Q. Now, Mr. Butler, you arrived at a number of conclusions in your
4 report. And let me, first of all, direct you to the paragraph 1218 which
5 is in Prosecution Exhibit 2245. In this conclusion, Mr. Butler, I'd like
6 you to explain to the Trial Chamber what conclusions you reached in
7 respect of the VRS Main Staff's involvement?
8 A. Can you repeat the paragraph, sir.
9 Q. Paragraph 1218 of Prosecution Exhibit 2245.
10 A. Yes, sir. The conclusion that I reached with respect to the
11 Main Staff was that they were a significant participant in the planning,
12 decisions, and execution of the events that were surrounding the criminal
13 acts as charged.
14 They issued orders. Their officers were on the ground as these
15 orders occurred, in many cases. The orders that they issued to their
16 subordinate formations, the Drina Corps, were acted upon and responded
17 to, either directly by the Drina Corps or by their subordinate
18 formations.
19 Q. Okay. Now, what conclusions, Mr. Butler, did you reach in
20 respect of whether the Drina Corps members were active in the planning
21 and execution of the crimes committed during the time-frame you were
22 looking at?
23 A. The same, sir. The Drina Corps was part of this entire planning
24 and execution process.
25 Q. And if I can direct your attention in that report to
Page 6527
1 paragraph 13.23, is that where you set out your conclusions or a portion
2 of your conclusions?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. Okay. And did you come to any conclusions in this context about
5 whether the chain of command in the Drina Corps to the Main Staff was
6 functioning?
7 A. Yes, sir. And, in fact, my conclusion was that during the period
8 that the chain of command, as organised in the VRS along the former JNA
9 lines was functioning as it was supposed to during the period.
10 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Butler, did you after reviewing the documentation
11 that was available to you, come to any conclusions in respect of whether
12 the crimes that are described in -- in the Krstic indictment and the
13 Blagojevic indictment dealing with mass executions and dealing with the
14 forcible transfer of the population from Potocari, did you reach any
15 conclusions as to whether those crimes were planned and organised?
16 A. Yes, sir, I did, and it was my conclusion that those crimes were,
17 in fact, planned and organised in a very sophisticated manner.
18 Q. Now, just to enlighten the Trial Chamber, what when you say --
19 when you refer to your conclusion, "these were planned and organised
20 crimes," can you set forth the elements that led to you believe and what
21 -- led to you believe these were planned and organised crimes?
22 A. Yes, sir. The scope of the crimes involved, as well as the
23 variety of military units and staff officers and functions that were part
24 of them relates to just how wide the involvement of both the planning and
25 the execution was of the Drina Corps.
Page 6528
1 For example, the widespread effort to gather the requisite
2 transportation and the fuel that had to go behind both moving the
3 civilian population out of Potocari, as well as then moving the prisoners
4 who were detained in and around Bratunac to the execution sites. The
5 efforts of the military police as well as military units to escort these
6 prisoners and then to guard them at various locations, schools in the
7 Zvornik brigade area. The efforts of various officers in attempting to
8 find individuals who would be actually engaged in the execution of these
9 individuals and to ensure that they were secured in the schools. The
10 efforts of these same officers to organise the engineering equipment
11 necessary to bury the mass quantities of bodies on the battlefield -- or
12 not at the battlefield but at these execution sites, as well as later on
13 the efforts of these same officers, once the crimes had been discovered
14 by the international community and publicised to go in and re-exhume
15 these bodies and bury them in more remote locations.
16 So from a military perspective, when you have to look at the wide
17 variety of tasks that have to happen for a military organisation to
18 accomplish that, it is a fairly wide scope of the unit. And then, of
19 course, when you have the intercept information, the intercepts confirm
20 that many officers who are key officers on the Drina Corps staff as well
21 as the Main Staff were actively involved in that process.
22 Q. Now, in the course of the preparation of the Krstic report, did
23 -- was there an issue and did you consider the issue of when
24 General Krstic assumed command of the Drina Corps?
25 A. Yes, sir, there was an issue, and I certainly did consider it.
Page 6529
1 Q. And what conclusion did you reach in respect of when
2 General Krstic became commander of the Drina Corps?
3 A. My conclusion was that General Krstic became commander of the
4 Drina Corps in the early evening hours of 13 July 1995.
5 Q. Now, Mr. Butler, let's focus on the additional reports that you
6 prepared, three reports. I call them the command responsibilities
7 reports. P2244, which is the VRS corps command responsibility report;
8 P2248, which is the VRS brigade command responsibility report; and P2249,
9 which is the VRS Main Staff command responsibility report.
10 Can you, first of all, identify what your tasks were in respect
11 of these particular reports?
12 A. The preparation of these reports actually predated the
13 preparation of the narrative reports. As the foundational step, my task
14 in these particular cases were to, within the framework of the army of
15 the Republika Srpska, as well as the legal framework within the Republika
16 Srpska at the time, to identify the army, where it fit within the law, to
17 identify the doctrine that the army was using, in this case the former
18 doctrine of -- the doctrine of the former Yugoslav national army, to
19 determine that the VRS was still in fact using that doctrine as their --
20 the way that they operated in the battlefield, understanding the
21 hierarchy of the army of the Republika Srpska, how it went from the very
22 top echelons down to the lowest echelons, and then what the roles and
23 responsibilities were in practice as well as under law of the individuals
24 in question, whether they be a corps commander, whether they be a corps
25 Chief of Staff, a brigade commander, or any of the other various
Page 6530
1 officers.
2 So for me, that was the foundational step, before I could -- and
3 understanding their roles and responsibilities within their own military
4 forces before I could go to the next step of figuring out what their
5 impact was with respect to the Srebrenica operation.
6 Q. Now, what methodology did you use in preparing these reports,
7 Mr. Butler?
8 A. Again, primarily because it was all we had at the time, it was a
9 documents-based approach, based on various military documents that we
10 had, based on translations of the former Yugoslav national army doctrinal
11 regulations for corps and brigades. The same with their former manuals
12 for the functioning of the security service and the military police,
13 their command and staff manuals which explains how their staff processes
14 worked and how their officers were trained. And then later on, although
15 not incorporated in my report, when we had access to a number of those
16 high ranking officers, the ability to go out, explain what my conclusions
17 were and to determine whether or not, you know, my thesis on how it
18 worked was in fact the way that they operated. And they were able to
19 confirm that.
20 Q. Mr. Butler, could you briefly describe --
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, if I might interject. I'd appreciate
22 if the witness confines his answers to the questions asked and not go
23 astray from those questions.
24 MR. HARMON:
25 Q. Mr. Butler, can you briefly describe the conclusions you reached
Page 6531
1 on the basis of the work that you performed?
2 A. Yes, sir. The conclusions that I reached on the basis of those
3 command responsibility reports was that in almost all respects the army
4 of the Republika Srpska operated in the same manner that the officers
5 were trained under the former JNA. They used the same operating guidance
6 and same methodologies, and that their units, be them of corps or brigade
7 or lower levels, were in large part organised in accordance with the way
8 that the JNA manuals had described.
9 Q. Now, in your report P2245, just to orient --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before you.
11 MR. HARMON: Yes, sir.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just wanted to take you back to the point you
13 made a little earlier on.
14 On what basis did you come to the conclusion that Radoslav Krstic
15 became commander of the Drina Corps some time in the early evening of the
16 13th of July, 1995?
17 THE WITNESS: Well, sir, in that particular context when you look
18 at the initial version of the narrative and the corps command report, our
19 basis of knowledge from the orders that are signed by him reflect the
20 fact that he is signing orders as the corps commander sometime -- at, I
21 believe, 2000 hours on 13 July 1995
22 General Krstic, of course, his position was that even though it
23 said that he wasn't the commander, he was in fact some other form of
24 commander. As the years went on investigative ly, the OTP was able to
25 obtain additional documents that in fact show the formal change over of
Page 6532
1 command, and also I understand that there has in fact been witness
2 testimony that reflects that that change of command occurred roughly
3 1900 hours, 2000 hours on 13 July.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what is the date of the formal change of
5 command?
6 THE WITNESS: 13 July, sir.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: 13 July.
8 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I intend to introduce that document in
9 the course of Mr. Butler's evidence, just for your information.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You may then proceed. I'll stop
11 there.
12 MR. HARMON:
13 Q. In your report, Mr. Butler, Prosecution Exhibit 2245, and in
14 chapter 2 of that report you identify the units of the Drina Corps and
15 the VRS Main Staff and the key person nationalities associated with each
16 of those units. And at the end of that report, you prepared four
17 organigrams showing the structure of the VRS Main Staff, the Drina Corps,
18 the Zvornik Brigade, and the Bratunac brigade. And you identified --
19 populated that organigram with the personalities associated with each of
20 those positions. Correct?
21 A. That is correct, sir, based on my knowledge at the time.
22 Q. Now let me -- let's turn, if we can, Mr. Butler, to the attack
23 that took place on the UN Safe Area of Srebrenica. You refer to those in
24 your -- in Prosecution exhibit 2246 in chapter 3 of the report.
25 Mr. Butler, what was Operation Krivaja? What was it?
Page 6533
1 A. Krivaja was the code-name of a VRS military operation whose
2 initial goal was to reduce the size of the safe haven around Srebrenica
3 to a very small area, almost within the urban environs of the town of
4 Srebrenica.
5 Q. Did that change -- did that plan change?
6 A. Yes, sir, based on the unanticipated success that the military
7 units were having, some time on the evening hours of 9 July 1995, the
8 plan changed, and it then became the capture of the town of Srebrenica
9 Q. Can you identify which VRS units participated in the attack on
10 Srebrenica?
11 A. Yes, sir. A variety of units participated.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. They would include a tactical group form from the Zvornik
14 Infantry Brigade, Drina Corps; a tactical group from the Birac Infantry
15 Brigade, Drina Corps; tactical group from the 2nd Romanija Motorised
16 Brigade, the Drina Corps asset; it would include troops from the
17 surrounding military unit, the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, it's a
18 Drina Corps asset; elements of the Drina Corps artillery were involved;
19 as well as elements of the Milici Light Infantry Brigade; and the Skelani
20 separate battalion, both also Drina Corps units.
21 Q. What role, if any, did the 10th Sabotage Detachment play in the
22 events?
23 A. Once the decision was made to actually go into the urban area of
24 Srebrenica, the 10th Sabotage Unit as well as some other special police
25 units were brought in to perform that function. They were placed under
Page 6534
1 the control of the Drina Corps for that operation, and in fact they were
2 one of the lead units that actually went into the town of Srebrenica.
3 Q. Now, Mr. Butler, what we're going to do and the way we're going
4 to progress through a large part of your evidence today is we're going to
5 be taking a look at film footage from the events surrounding the takeover
6 of Srebrenica and the forcible transfer of persons from that enclave as
7 well as the capture and detention and killings of people who had
8 surrendered to the VRS.
9 Now, you mentioned earlier in your evidence that you had
10 considered film footage from various open sources. In the course of
11 looking at this evidence, we're going to see the source of some of this
12 footage that will be identified --
13 MR. HARMON: For counsel's benefit and for Your Honour's benefit,
14 will be identified in the portions of the film that identify what the
15 theme is of the ensuing film. Now, one of those, Your Honours, will say
16 Petrovic footage. And I want to clarify with Mr. Butler.
17 Q. First of all, Mr. Butler, are you familiar with Petrovic footage?
18 Can you explain to the court who Petrovic was.
19 A. Yes, sir, I am familiar it. It was one of the pieces of material
20 I actually used in my report. Zoran Petrovic was a reporter, an
21 independent reporter from Belgrade
22 permitted to accompany Republika Srpska special police commander
23 Borovcanin in and around the area of Potocari as well as along the road
24 from Bratunac to Kravica, to Sandici, towards the Konjevic Polje. During
25 his period accompanying him on 13 July, he videotaped a good deal of the
Page 6535
1 events that were occurring in those locations on that day. Those
2 videotapes identify locations where individuals were detained. They
3 identify one location where individuals were executed, and they show in
4 some degree of detail the actual separation process that occurred in the
5 town of Potocari on 13 July 1995
6 Q. Mr. Butler, what other sources of video footage that we will be
7 looking at can you identify for the Court?
8 A. Yes, sir. Other sources would include video footage of -- or
9 that was taken by members of the VRS themselves. There was a video crew
10 there from the VRS Main Staff that was taking video that ultimately ended
11 up on Republika Srpska television, so there's a good deal of video from
12 that. There's also one small piece of video that is from an independent
13 Dutch production crew that obtained that video footage sometime after the
14 war, which shows some scenes related to Potocari and also Sandici.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you say obtained sometime after the war, what
16 do you mean?
17 THE WITNESS: The video footage was in a Dutch documentary that I
18 believe came out, if I recall correctly, sometime in 1999. I know that
19 the investigation team has the full background on the process of how they
20 obtained the video and where. I don't recall the details of that at this
21 time.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. It is that detail that I wanted.
23 MR. HARMON: Now, Your Honours, what I intend to do is show a
24 series of videos. I will stop it at various points. I will note the
25 timer number on it because there are some portions that I'd ask
Page 6536
1 Mr. Butler to identify.
2 If we could take a look at the first clip. It 65 ter 4459I --
3 4559I.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 MR. HARMON: We have stopped -- we have stopped this at 53.--
6 00.00.53.3.
7 Q. Mr. Butler, even though this is the backside of this individual's
8 head, can you identify who this individual is?
9 A. Yes, sir, that is Colonel Vinko Pandurevic, the commander of the
10 Zvornik Infantry Brigade in July of 1995.
11 MR. HARMON: And for reference, Your Honour, the paragraph he's
12 referred to in chapter 2, and he is -- identified in paragraph 3.2 and
13 other parts of the narrative.
14 If we could continue, please.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
17 MR. HARMON: Sorry, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we be told where this place is.
19 MR. HARMON: Yes, sir.
20 Q. Mr. Butler, can you identify -- you have seen this footage
21 before. Can you identify where this is taking place, Where this footage
22 is.
23 A. Yes, sir. This is on the road from Zeleni Jadar moving towards
24 Srebrenica. It's actually a downhill grade, so the main axis of attack
25 went down this particular road, down the valley towards Srebrenica.
Page 6537
1 Q. And what day is this, approximately? Do you have any idea of
2 dating this particular film footage, or a range of dates when this was
3 taken?
4 A. This film footage, I believe, all comes from the day that
5 Srebrenica was captured. This would be the morning/early afternoon hours
6 of 11 July 1995
7 Q. All right. Now, if we could -- if that is satisfactory,
8 Your Honour, we can continue.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, that's fine.
10 MR. HARMON: All right. Thank you.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 MR. HARMON: We've stopped the film at 00.01.38.2.
13 Q. Mr. Butler, can you identify this individual, please?
14 A. Yes, sir. That is Captain Milan Jolovic. He is the commander of
15 the Drina Wolves unit of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.
16 Q. And what was the Drina Wolves units?
17 A. The Drina Wolves were a rather elite combat formation. They were
18 considered the assault battalion of the Drina Corps, although they were
19 normally subordinate to the Zvornik Infantry Brigade. This particular
20 unit made up some of the best-trained and fittest soldiers of the
21 Drina
22 [Video-clip played]
23 MR. HARMON:
24 Q. Mr. Butler, first of all, before we ask you some more questions
25 on that --
Page 6538
1 MR. HARMON: Could that be given an exhibit number, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted into evidence. May it please be
3 given an exhibit number.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2387.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
6 MR. HARMON:
7 Q. Now, Mr. Butler, at the time this film footage was occurring,
8 were there members of the Bosnian army in the enclave, the -- the Bosnia
9 -- army of the government of Bosnia
10 and what is referred in your report.
11 A. Yes, sir. In fact, despite the UN presence, the enclave was
12 never disarmed, and the military formation of the ABiH 2 Corps was the
13 28th Infantry Division that had a sizeable presence inside Srebrenica and
14 the surrounding enclave.
15 Q. And can you describe the arms that was available to them.
16 A. Mostly what we would consider light arms, individual weapons,
17 pistols, rifles, machine-guns, small crew-served weapons, heavier
18 machine-guns and mortars. Given the fact that they could not supply
19 themselves under normal circumstances, that they had to smuggle weapons
20 and ammunition in, either through known smuggling corridors or, you know
21 surreptitious helicopter flights, or by other means, they couldn't have
22 and didn't have any particularly heavy weapons. But they did have a
23 considerable number of light arms.
24 Q. Did they have heavy weapons?
25 A. There were some heavy weapons that existed prior to the
Page 6539
1 establishment of the safe area, but those particular weapons were in the
2 UN weapons storage area and under UN control. They were not part of this
3 July 1995 fight.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: You referred to surreptitious helicopter flights.
5 How surreptitious were these, and how often were they?
6 THE WITNESS: They're -- from the readings of the VRS documents,
7 they were aware that on at least a biweekly basis that Bosnian Muslim
8 military forces would fly helicopters to the enclaves to drop off
9 ammunition to pick up individuals or to deliver high-ranking or
10 high-value individuals, occasionally take out a seriously wounded
11 individual. They were aware they were doing that, and took active
12 measures in order to try and prevent that. I think in one particular
13 case in either January/February 1995, they were successful in shooting
14 down one of those helicopters.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: And did they see the contents of the helicopter?
16 THE WITNESS: I don't know the answer it that, sir.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know how they came to the conclusion of --
18 the conclusion about the mission of these helicopters?
19 THE WITNESS: How the Bosnian Serbs did?
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. You say from the documents of VRS, this is
21 how you came it that conclusion. From the reading of those documents,
22 how did they come to the conclusion about the mission of those
23 helicopters?
24 THE WITNESS: Well, sir, they -- they, like everyone else, they
25 had intelligence means that were involved. They had sources of
Page 6540
1 information inside the enclave. It -- while it was done clandestinely,
2 it was common knowledge within military circles that this was happening.
3 So they were aware that these helicopters were coming in. And in fact in
4 some cases their ability to track them was highlighted by the fact that
5 they would get radar information from the VJ and through their own air
6 defence early warning network so that these were coming at various points
7 in time.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I can understand being aware of the helicopter
9 coming. I'm sure, even by the naked eye, if are you in the vicinity you
10 might be able to see. What I'm trying to find out is how the mission of
11 the helicopter and the contents of the helicopter were determined.
12 THE WITNESS: Again, sir, it was -- I can only tell you what the
13 documents say, that it was common knowledge to them. I believe that in
14 the course of the Office of the Prosecutor's investigation into this,
15 they have also been able to confirm what those flights were about. So I
16 don't -- you know, the fact that I can't tell you exactly how they knew
17 of this, but can I tell that, you know, as time went by, they were
18 correct.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just asked these questions because we have just
20 heard testimony about this part of the case, which goes against what you
21 are saying.
22 THE WITNESS: I understand, sir.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: You understand. Thank you so much.
24 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Witness, I would like to ask a
25 question.
Page 6541
1 We heard another witness who told us that it was impossible that
2 helicopter flew into Srebrenica. They could not go into the enclaves in
3 Srebrenica without the UNPROFOR people realizing it. This witness worked
4 for the United Nations and told us he was the spokesperson, and he said
5 that he did not see any report to that effect mentioning, for instance, a
6 helicopter or a flight of a helicopter arriving into one of the enclaves.
7 How is that possible?
8 THE WITNESS: Again, I certainly can't vouch for that individual.
9 I can tell that you they happened. Certainly with respect to the
10 Srebrenica enclave, it was a well-known fact that the Bosnian Muslim
11 forces, the 28th Infantry Division --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Butler, I would like to you be very clear.
13 You can tell us it happened, or you can tell us that you read VRS
14 documents stating that it happened.
15 THE WITNESS: Sir, I can tell you it happened.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: It happened. You saw it.
17 THE WITNESS: No, I did not --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're not being an eye-witness.
19 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I'm not trying to do that. But what I'm
20 saying is that approximately a month and a half before Srebrenica that
21 the entire Command Staff, for the most part, of the 28th Division left
22 the Srebrenica enclave and ended up in Tuzla where they were part of --
23 where they were 2 corps undergoing training and some other types of
24 issues. They flew out.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I must ask you this question. About a month
Page 6542
1 before the taking of Srebrenica, you were in that area?
2 THE WITNESS: No, sir. Again what I'm --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you see, I'm concerned about the way you are
4 testifying. You're testifying like an eye-witness.
5 THE WITNESS: I understand, and I don't mean to, sir.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, don't then. If are you not an eye-witness,
7 don't testify like that. If you have heard or if you've read about it
8 somewhere, say this is what you read.
9 THE WITNESS: Again, sir, I can tell you that the VRS understood
10 that these helicopter flights were occurring.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't want to know at this stage what the VRS
12 understood. I want to know what you understand.
13 THE WITNESS: Sir --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you testifying to something that you saw? Are
15 you testifying to something that you read about? Are you testifying to
16 something that you were told?
17 THE WITNESS: Sir, I'm testifying to the information that I read
18 about in the VRS reports, and I --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: You can only say the VRS reports state.
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. But the other portion of that is that it
21 an attempt to -- in analysing this, to verify these, the investigation
22 did look at these issues, and our understanding from the ongoing
23 investigation is that the VRS information in this regard was accurate and
24 that these flights were taking place.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
Page 6543
1 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Is it possible, then, Witness, and
2 this is my question: Is it possible that the UN observers, the UN
3 military observers, hadn't seen anything? It is not such a huge space,
4 Srebrenica.
5 How is it possible that they hadn't heard anything, they hadn't
6 seen the helicopters? How is that possible?
7 THE WITNESS: Ma'am, as a component of the Srebrenica
8 investigations and three trials, a large number of Dutch officers who
9 were in the enclave during that period testified, and they made it very
10 clear that their ability to move around the enclave completely and have
11 full freedom of movement was severely restricted by the forces of the
12 28th Infantry Division. They openly acknowledge that there was a large
13 part of the enclave that they never had access to, because that is where
14 the military formations of the 28th Division operated.
15 It is it entirely possible that United Nations observers, and in
16 fact as the Dutch report, in their own reporting, there are large parts
17 of the enclave that they were not able to observe and were not able to
18 know what type of activity was happening there, ma'am.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Even with the help of radars, they could not
20 detect anything?
21 THE WITNESS: Ma'am, the Dutch did not have any air defence early
22 warning radars in and around the Srebrenica area, as far as I'm aware.
23 While I'm sure NATO had radar coverage of that area, I have no way of
24 knowing how much information was shared by the NATO deny-flight missions
25 with the United Nations on that basis. I -- frankly, I guess I
Page 6544
1 apologised in so much as I didn't believe that that would possibly be a
2 disputed fact. I thought that was pretty much common knowledge that
3 those flights were occurring.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah. The only point, sir, is that you're called
5 here as an expert witness, and what we ask -- what we expect of you is
6 opinion evidence, not fact evidence, unless you say, These are the facts
7 that I have been given to operate on. But not facts that you claim to
8 have seen or observed somewhere. Because you're not coming in that
9 capacity.
10 THE WITNESS: Agreed, sir, and certainly I do not want to ever
11 leave that impression.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: We happen to have that impression.
13 THE WITNESS: My apologies, sir.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon.
15 MR. HARMON:
16 Q. Mr. Butler, did the members of the 28th Division resist the
17 advance of the VRS into the enclave?
18 A. No, sir, not particularly heavily. Their strategy was, in part,
19 to have the United Nations defend the enclave, so what would happen is
20 that when they were contacted by the VRS forces, they would withdraw back
21 behind the United Nations, the Dutch troops, and put the Dutch in a
22 position where they would have fire on the Serbs or essentially have
23 their positions overrun.
24 Q. What actions did the members of the 28th Division take in the
25 face of the VRS invasion into the safe area?
Page 6545
1 A. While there was some token resistance. For the most part the
2 forces of the 28th Infantry Division just continued to withdraw towards
3 the town of Srebrenica and to the hills to the west of it.
4 Q. Okay.
5 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I notice we're a little bit early from
6 the break time, but the next clip I'm going to show is going to carry
7 over. It will be -- it will either take us past the break by a few
8 minutes, or we can break now and we can reconvene, and I can start
9 afresh. I'm in your hands.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: What are you asking?
11 MR. HARMON: I think it is better to break, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: We will take a break and come back at 4.00.
13 Court adjourned.
14 --- Recess taken at 3.27 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Harmon.
17 MR. HARMON: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Mr. Butler, in a moment, we're going to look at some film footage
19 from the town of Srebrenica
20 Before we look at that film, can you tell me what the distance,
21 approximate distance is between the town of Srebrenica and the town of
22 Potocari, both of which were located in the Srebrenica enclave.
23 A. I believe, sir, that, by road, it's approximately 4 to
24 5 kilometres, maybe a little less.
25 Q. Okay.
Page 6546
1 MR. HARMON: So if we could play 65 ter 4459.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're sure it's 4459?
3 MR. HARMON: No, I'm not. I've been corrected once again, Your
4 Honour. I have been corrected once again. It's 4559J.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 MR. HARMON:
7 Q. Mr. Butler, we've stopped the film at 00.06.08.7.
8 Can you identify the type of weapon that is being fired in this
9 particular frame?
10 A. Yes, sir, I believe that's --
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, there's no foundation for an expertise
12 with regard to that issue.
13 MR. HARMON: I'll refrain -- I'll lay the foundation then,
14 Your Honour. I mean, I think you've --
15 Q. Mr. Butler, how long did you serve in the United States Army?
16 A. Twenty years, sir.
17 Q. Did you participate in weapons training and weapons usage?
18 A. As part of my role as an intelligence warrant officer, I was
19 required to be familiar with the weaponry of less the United States
20 forces but more so of the former Soviet Union Warsaw Pact and
21 adversaries. So a knowledge of those types of weapons is what I'm
22 trained to do.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm satisfied.
24 MR. HARMON: Mr. Butler, then are you in a position to tell what
25 kind of a weapon is being fired in this particular frame?
Page 6547
1 A. Yes, sir, that is a mortar. I believe from the size,
2 82-millimetres.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: And where are we?
4 MR. HARMON: At the beginning of the clip, Your Honour, the clip
5 identified the town of Srebrenica
6 beginning of Mr. Butler' evidence, we were now going to go to look at
7 footage from the town of Srebrenica
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
9 MR. HARMON: And can I ask, if Your Honour wishes, because we can
10 locate this quite easily in the rest of this film, but if you're
11 satisfied, Your Honour, I will proceed, or ...
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, sir.
13 MR. HARMON: All right.
14 Q. Mr. Butler, at the time this weapon is being fired, what -- on
15 the 10th of July, in respect of the town of Srebrenica, can you put this
16 footage in context with the events?
17 A. Sir, I believe this footage is actually the 11th of July,
18 approximately the middle morning hours. This is the last rear guard
19 elements of the 28th Division. What happens is -- the next component is
20 this is where all of the civilians, particularly the women and the
21 children, are congregating around the United Nations Dutch Bravo company
22 compound that was actually located in Srebrenica town.
23 Q. Well, Mr. Butler, at this point, this clip has been identified as
24 the 10th of July. I want to explore that with you because we are going
25 to be looking at a clip that is dated the 11th of July where we will be
Page 6548
1 looking at the town of Srebrenica and civilians.
2 What is it that makes you conclude that this is the 11th of July,
3 as opposed to what was on the caption of the film, the 10th of July?
4 A. Again, sir, it's been a few years since I have seen a lot of this
5 footage. I always see in the same streaming portion associated with the
6 11th of July.
7 Q. Okay. Well, we'll --
8 MR. HARMON: Let's continue then.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MR. HARMON:
11 Q. Now, Mr. Butler, we've stopped the film at 00.06.41.8.
12 Can you identify the building that says "UN Srebrenica" on it?
13 What is that building?
14 A. Yes, sir. That is the Bravo company compound of the Dutch
15 battalion.
16 Q. All right. Thank you.
17 MR. HARMON: Let's continue.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MR. HARMON:
20 Q. Now, Mr. Butler, we've stopped this film at 00.07.32.9, and in
21 the left-hand corner of this footage, one can see the date, 10/7/1995.
22 A. Yes, sir, that is correct.
23 Q. Okay.
24 MR. HARMON: If we could continue then, please.
25 [Video-clip played]
Page 6549
1 MR. HARMON:
2 Q. Mr. Butler, I'm going to ask you to -- we're going to look at
3 some film footage from the 11th of July, 1995, and to put this footage
4 into context, can you just inform the Court what was happening in the
5 enclave on the 11th of July, based on your review of the documents and
6 other materials available to you.
7 A. At this particular time, the Bosnian Serb army forces, the
8 Drina Corps, are located in the heights around the town. The Bosnian
9 Muslim leadership in the enclave has made the decision that they're going
10 to abandon the enclave. And what ends up happening is you have two
11 separate routes out of the enclave, one large group of civilians,
12 primarily women, children, elderly men, elect to accompany the Dutch
13 Bravo company forces out of the town. Another group, the military-aged
14 men, or those believed to be, you know, within the military age group,
15 start assembling at a series of villages, Susnjari, Jaglici, near
16 Potocari, and they begin to make an overland trek from the former enclave
17 area to what they considered to be free territory near Tuzla.
18 MR. HARMON: And if we could play this particular footage that's
19 entitled: Srebrenica Town
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MR. HARMON:
22 Q. Mr. Butler, we've stopped the film at 00.14.22.6.
23 Can you tell us what this particular portion of the film depicts?
24 A. Yes, sir. This depicts one portion of what we generally refer to
25 as the column of military-aged men that's assembling and beginning to
Page 6550
1 move towards the ABiH 2 Corps lines near Tuzla.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, could 65 ter 4559J be given an exhibit
4 number, please.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: And just for purposes of my own record keeping,
6 that includes two separate clips, one on the --
7 MR. HARMON: The 10th of July and the 11th of July.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you so much.
9 MR. HARMON: Thank you.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what's the provenance of this film?
11 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I would have to go back and -- I can
12 check on that. It would say at the -- probably at the beginning of the
13 film.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you so much.
15 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, the provenance of that film is Muslim
16 -- it's Muslim civilian footage. It's footage that was taken in the
17 enclave by somebody who was in the enclave at the time.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'd like to know who that somebody is. That's
19 what I mean by provenance.
20 MR. HARMON: I'll see if I can find that out for you,
21 Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Madam Registrar, would you please
23 assign an exhibit number to that clip so it can be admitted into
24 evidence.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2388.
Page 6551
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
2 MR. HARMON:
3 Q. Mr. Butler, based on your review of the documents and materials
4 available and with you -- that were available to you, can you just
5 generally describe the column, the direction of travel of the column, and
6 what happened to the column, in general terms?
7 A. In general terms, the column formed up at the villages of
8 Susnjari and Jaglici through the evening hours of 11th July and -- or
9 through the evening hours of 10 July to 11 July and began to move almost
10 in single or double file, because of the extensive minefields around the
11 enclave, down known smuggling routes by which the ABiH had actually been
12 bringing in the weapons. The Bosnian Serb military and police forces
13 knew where those routes were and, as a result, they were able to set up
14 ambushes throughout the course of this column, moving from that location,
15 the former enclave, to their destination.
16 Starting the evening of the 12th and running from the 13th, 14th,
17 15th, 16th, there was a good deal of combat activity that occurred
18 between the armed members of the column, as well as the Republika Srpska
19 police and the Republika Srpska military units that were trying to block
20 that column.
21 One of the unique aspects about that that comes from through from
22 the military and police documents is that the army leadership and, to a
23 lesser degree, the police leadership under estimated the size of the
24 column as well as potential military threat that that column faced
25 towards the Zvornik municipality. So as time goes on and as the times as
Page 6552
1 these leaders recognise the size and the potential threat of this column,
2 one sees a great deal of reallocations of military and police forces from
3 other areas on the battlefield in order to deal with it.
4 Ultimately on the 16th of July, because of the combat that is
5 occurred and because of the situation in the Zvornik brigade, the Zvornik
6 brigade military commander Colonel Pandurevic, makes a decision that
7 allows for a large portion of that column to pass through his lines and
8 ultimately make it to friendly territory. That cease-fire lasted for
9 24 hours. Afterwards the Zvornik brigade and other forces there moved in
10 to close that off, and then the remainder of the column is systematically
11 tracked down and either captured or killed.
12 Q. Based on your review of the documents, Mr. Butler, were you able
13 to ascertain the composition of the column in terms of what approximate
14 percentage of members of the column were armed members of the 28th
15 Division, which portion were civilians?
16 A. Yes, sir. Again, the documents reflect that the Bosnian Serb
17 leadership was aware -- the Bosnian Serb military leadership there was
18 aware that both military and civilians were in the column. Their general
19 view was that approximately one third of the column was armed; the
20 remainder were not.
21 Q. Okay.
22 MR. HARMON: I'd like to look -- I'd like to have 65 ter 4559K
23 shown next.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 MR. HARMON:
Page 6553
1 Q. Mr. Butler, can you enlighten us as to what was depicted on that
2 film?
3 A. Yes, sir. I mean, that's just another depiction of the column as
4 it was travelling out. You'll notice the single file that they were
5 going over the track.
6 Q. Okay. Now, I'd like to change and refocus our attention on
7 Potocari on the 11th of July.
8 You indicated in your report, Mr. Butler, that the Muslim
9 population that went -- part of the Muslim population went to Potocari.
10 That's referenced in your executive summary, paragraph 7, and 3.22 of
11 your revised report.
12 What was the general composition of the group of people who went
13 from Srebrenica town to Potocari?
14 A. The Dutch and UN observer reports reflect the fact that most of
15 the people that accompanied the UN were women, children, and elderly.
16 They note the fact in their own reporting that there are very few
17 individuals that they could identify as soldiers.
18 Q. All right.
19 MR. HARMON: Could we go to Prosecution Exhibit 385, please.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you do that, what do you want to do with --
21 MR. HARMON: Oh, I'm sorry. Could that be given an exhibit
22 number, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted into evidence. May it please be
24 given an exhibit number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2389.
Page 6554
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
2 Now you want --
3 MR. HARMON: Yes. Can we have on the screen and play Prosecution
4 Exhibit 385.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 MR. HARMON:
7 Q. Mr. Butler, I want to now direct our attention to a different
8 region within the enclave. You mentioned in your --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: What were we supposed to see on that?
10 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, what I have attempted to do is show you
11 what was happening on the day of the 11th. I have taken you to, first of
12 all, the area of the column, where the column departing from.
13 Mr. Butler, in his report, indicated that in one of his paragraphs of his
14 report, he said the other portion of the civilian population went to
15 Potocari. We've seen parts of that. And now we're going to go to a
16 third geographical region within the enclave which is -- which I'll ask
17 Mr. Butler about it right now.
18 Q. Mr. Butler, you indicated earlier in your evidence and in your
19 report that on 11th of July, the enclave fell. In identifying persons in
20 your report from the VRS Main Staff and in the corps level and below who
21 participated in the attack on the enclave, did you rely on certain -- to
22 a certain extent, film footage?
23 A. Yes, sir, I did.
24 Q. All right. Now, I'm going to play a portion of film that was
25 taken on the is 11th of July. We're going to stop this, Your Honours and
Page 6555
1 counsel, many times so we can identify certain people who are referred to
2 in Mr. Butler' report.
3 MR. HARMON: So if we could put on the screen, 65 ter 4559L. If
4 we could play that, please.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 MR. HARMON: We've stopped the film at 00.19.48.1.
7 Q. Mr. Butler
8 right side of this frame and his position at the time this film was
9 taken?
10 A. Yes, sir. This is General Major Milenko Zivanovic, and at the
11 time this was taken he is the commander of the Drina Corps.
12 Q. All right.
13 MR. HARMON: Please continue.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 MR. HARMON: And we've stopped the film again at 00.20.08.4.
16 Q. The individual at the far left of this image is who?
17 A. That is Colonel Vinko Pandurevic, the commander of the Zvornik
18 Infantry Brigade.
19 MR. HARMON: If we could continue, please.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MR. HARMON:
22 Q. Mr. Butler, the third individual from the left at this particular
23 point in the film, which is 00.20.31.8, who is that individual?
24 A. The individual in question is General Major Radislav Krstic. At
25 this time, he is the Chief of Staff of the Drina Corps.
Page 6556
1 Q. All right.
2 MR. HARMON: Please continue.
3 [Video-clip played]
4 MR. HARMON:
5 Q. Mr. Butler, we've stopped this footage at 00.25.07.4.
6 And you will see next to General Krstic, who is at the far left
7 of this film, you will see two individuals who are dressed in black.
8 Were you able to identify which unit those members belonged to?
9 A. Yes, sir. Those are members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment.
10 Q. And based on your review of the documents, what role did members
11 of the 10th Sabotage Detachment play, if any, in the mass executions?
12 A. Again, in this particular case while I am aware of the role of
13 the 10th Sabotage, it's not on the basis of the VRS documents itself.
14 Q. Okay. Well, let me -- do you refer in your report to the
15 10th Sabotage -- members of this unit, participating in executions?
16 A. Yes, sir, I do.
17 Q. And which executions did members of this unit participate in?
18 A. They were involved in the executions that occurred at the
19 Branjevo farm on 16 July 1995
20 Zvornik municipality.
21 Q. Okay.
22 MR. HARMON: And those references, Your Honour, are found in
23 Mr. Butler`s report, paragraphs 7.36 to 7.42.
24 If we could continue, then, playing this film.
25 [Video-clip played]
Page 6557
1 MR. HARMON:
2 Q. We've stopped the film at 00.29.17.3.
3 Mr. Butler, who is the man on the left-hand side of this image?
4 A. Yes, sir. That is Colonel Mirko Trivic. He is the commander of
5 the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade; it's a Drina Corps unit.
6 Q. Okay. Thank you.
7 MR. HARMON: If we can continue.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 MR. HARMON: We've stopped the film at 00.30.30 -- 35.9.
10 Q. And on the left-hand side of this image there is a man in a brown
11 T-shirt. Can you identify who that person is and what his position was?
12 A. Yes, sir. That is Colonel Vujadin Popovic. He is the chief of
13 security for the Drina Corps command, or otherwise known as the assistant
14 commander for security.
15 Q. All right.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 MR. HARMON:
18 Q. Mr. Butler, we`ve stopped this film at 00.31.00.7. And in the
19 upper right-hand corner, there is a logo, are you able to identify what
20 the logo is?
21 A. Yes, sir. I understand that that's the logo for Serb Radio and
22 Television.
23 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.
24 MR. HARMON: Let's continue.
25 [Video-clip played]
Page 6558
1 MR. HARMON:
2 Q. Again, if we can -- Mr. Butler, we have stopped at 00.31.12.8.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: I do apologise, Mr. Harmon.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: With regard to the last comment made by the
6 witness and when he said it was a logo for Serb television, is that for
7 Republika Srpska Television or for some other -- I just -- I think it
8 might be good to have it clarified within the context of the -- the video
9 itself.
10 MR. HARMON: I agree.
11 Q. Can you answer, Mr. Butler, that logo that we just saw on the
12 film clip where General Mladic is addressing, making a speech, that logo
13 is from --
14 A. It's Republika Srpska, sir.
15 Q. Thank you very much.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: While we're on that comment, Mr. Harmon, I've seen
17 in previous -- I don't know whether we do it with clips. Don't we sort
18 of mark what we identify and preserve those?
19 MR. HARMON: I'm sorry?
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Don't we usually mark what we identify on the clip
21 with a electronic pen and -- or is it not with the -- clips?
22 MR. HARMON: [Microphone not activated] In terms marking the
23 still images, Your Honour, is that what you're --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, yeah.
25 MR. HARMON: [Microphone not activated] I've tried to identify --
Page 6559
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
2 MR. HARMON: -- identify the actual timing the numbers so we can
3 go back and stills can be made from these.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you so much.
5 MR. HARMON: Okay.
6 Q. Now, Mr. Butler, again, this is -- we have seen some of these
7 figures before, but on the -- we've stopped it at 00.31.12.8. The man,
8 second figure from the left with a cigarette his mouth, who is that?
9 A. Again, sir, that's General Major Radoslav Krstic.
10 Q. The man to his left in a brown T-shirt?
11 A. I'm sorry, left or right?
12 Q. To his left. To Krstic's left-hand side.
13 A. That would be Colonel Popovic.
14 Q. And I know there's an arm there, and you can't identify on the
15 basis of the arm. But you have seen this footage before. Are -- and
16 we'll see a face shortly. Can you identify who that person is?
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we wait until we see the face, then we'll
18 know.
19 MR. HARMON: Okay, then would you stop the -- Carmela, in just a
20 minute.
21 Q. We stopped at 00.31.14.3. The second man from the left in a
22 camouflage uniform, who is that, sir?
23 A. That is Colonel Pandurevic.
24 Q. Okay.
25 MR. HARMON: If we could carry on.
Page 6560
1 [Video-clip played]
2 MR. HARMON: Okay. We've stopped the film at 00.31.28.9.
3 Q. And the man at the left-hand side of this image, can you identify
4 him, sir?
5 A. Yes, sir. That is Colonel Svetozar Andric. And at the time of
6 this film he is the commander of the 1st Birac Brigade of the Drina
7 Corps.
8 Q. What position did he take up after -- shortly thereafter?
9 A. When General Krstic was appointed as the commander of the
10 Drina Corps, Colonel Andric was subsequently promoted from the command of
11 the Birac Brigade, and he subsequently assumed the position of Chief of
12 Staff of the Drina
13 Q. All right. If we could carry on.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 MR. HARMON:
16 Q. Mr. Butler, we've stopped at 00.32.32.8, and the man on the
17 right-hand side of this image wearing a black T-shirt and camouflage
18 pants, can you identify him?
19 A. Yes, sir. He is Lieutenant Milorad Pelemis. He is the commander
20 of the 10th Sabotage Detachment.
21 Q. All right. Thank you.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 MR. HARMON: Could that be given an exhibit number, please.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
25 number.
Page 6561
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2390.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
3 MR. HARMON:
4 Q. Mr. Butler, in your report, chapter 4 of your report, you
5 describe a series of meetings and decisions that occurred following the
6 fall of Srebrenica, including three meetings at the hotel fontana. The
7 first meeting at the hotel Fontana is described in paragraph 4.3 to 4.5
8 of your report. And I'd like to you please put this first meeting into
9 context, with what was happening at the time, what was known by the VRS
10 in respect of the location of the 28th Division, and other relevant
11 elements.
12 A. Well, sir, at this point in time this meeting takes place at
13 roughly 2000 hours on the 11th. Srebrenica is in Bosnian Serb military
14 hands. And at this juncture, one of the first things that General Mladic
15 is attempting to do is to try to arrange for what he believes is going to
16 be the surrender of the 28th Infantry Division. One of the unique
17 aspects of this operation here is that the VRS, as is apparent through
18 the documents and the military intercepts of their communications, they
19 are unaware of a decision by the Muslim forces to try to break out of the
20 former enclave. So, as a result, the VRS still believes that they are
21 somewhere in the enclave and is in part trying to arrange for their
22 surrender.
23 MR. HARMON: Could we have 65 ter 4559M on the screen. This
24 film, Your Honour, may take us past the break. I'm satisfied to break at
25 the normal time and continue, if -- all right.
Page 6562
1 If we could play this film.
2 Q. This, Mr. Butler, is the first meeting at the Hotel Fontana on
3 11th of July, 1995.
4 Again, we're going to stop this, and I'm going to ask you to
5 identify certain participants in it right away.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 MR. HARMON: We've stopped this almost immediately, Mr. Butler,
8 at 00.37.04.6. And going from left to right, can you identify the
9 individuals depicted in this image, and their positions.
10 A. Yes, sir. Obviously the first person on the left is
11 General Ratko Mladic, the commander of the VRS.
12 The next individual is Colonel Radoslav Jankovic, who is an
13 officer who is assigned to the intelligence directorate of the Main Staff
14 of the VRS. The third person, person in the middle, the white-haired
15 gentleman is in fact Colonel Karremans; he is the commander of the Dutch
16 battalion of Srebrenica.
17 The next individual to his right is then Sergeant Major Brave.
18 And the find individual whose face is partially cut off at the end of the
19 screen is Major Boering. Both of those individuals are also members of
20 the Dutch battalion.
21 Q. All right.
22 The find individual whose face is partially cut off at the end of
23 the screen is Major Boering. Both of those individuals are also members
24 of the Dutch battalion.
25 Q. All right.
Page 6563
1 [Video-clip played]
2 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I have stopped the film. We can continue
3 playing this if you wish, but this goes on for another 20 minutes, and
4 I'm at your disposal, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: We're five minutes beyond the time.
6 MR. HARMON: Yes, sir.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: We will take a break and come back at quarter to.
8 Court adjourned.
9 --- Recess taken at 5.21 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Harmon.
12 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, just for the record we had stopped the
13 film at 00.56.00.9, and we're now going to start the continuation of that
14 Film at that particular timing mark.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 MR. HARMON: Could that film, Your Honour, be given an exhibit
18 number.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
20 number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2391.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 MR. HARMON:
24 Q. Mr. Butler, at the end -- toward the end of that film,
25 Colonel Karremans asked General Mladic if he could ask him a personal
Page 6564
1 question: Could he have a talk with his soldiers. And in your report,
2 at P2246, paragraph 3.12, page 30 of your report, you discuss the
3 takeover of observation posts in and around the enclave. Can you just
4 briefly explain to the Court what those observation posts were and what
5 happened to the persons who -- the Dutch soldiers who occupied those
6 posts?
7 A. Yes, sir. On the outside or on the perimeter of the enclave
8 itself, the Dutch, the UN, had established observation posts so they
9 could monitor activity to some degree. As the VRS forces advance towards
10 Srebrenica, they overran a number of these observation posts, as they
11 were blocking that particular route. The Dutch soldiers who were manning
12 them were given the option of either trying to withdraw back towards UN
13 bases in Srebrenica or Potocari; or, depending on the fighting, they were
14 given the option of placing themselves in the custody of the VRS
15 soldiers. Those that did, and for the most part most of the of the OPs
16 did, were taken to the Hotel Fontana in Bratunac where they remained.
17 Q. Based on your review of the documents and the materials available
18 to you, hadd any threats been made in respect of those soldiers?
19 A. Yes, sir, on 11 July 1995
20 Q. What threats?
21 A. Following the attack by NATO F-16 aircraft where several bombs
22 were dropped on the advancing VRS soldiers, the Dutch report that they
23 received over their radio networks a broadcast that said that if the
24 bombing not stop, that Dutch soldiers being held by the Serbs would be
25 harmed, in fact, would be killed.
Page 6565
1 Shortly thereafter that, orders were given for NATO to stop
2 bombing those positions.
3 MR. HARMON: Could we have 65 ter 4559N on the screen, please.
4 And play that.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 MR. HARMON:
7 Q. While this is being played, you have seen this clip before. Could
8 you identify for the Trial Chamber what this clip is going to depict.
9 A. Yes, sir. This is a clip showing a number of the Dutch
10 peacekeepers that were held at the Hotel Fontana.
11 THE INTERPRETER: It's hard to hear of the witness because of the
12 Background noise.
13 MR. HARMON: Why don't you stop the film for just a minute there.
14 Q. Let me just ask you to repeat what I just asked you, Mr. Butler.
15 We are we looking at this particular film. What does depict?
16 A. Again, sir, it depicts Dutch soldiers that are being -- or that
17 are at the Hotel Fontana on 11 July.
18 Q. All right.
19 MR. HARMON: If we could continue with the film.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, could this film clip be given an exhibit
22 number.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: We will do that. Are these the soldiers that
24 Colonel Karremans was asking to talk to?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, that is correct.
Page 6566
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know whether he actually did talk to them?
2 It doesn't appear to seem like that on the clip.
3 THE WITNESS: No, sir, he did address them.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: He did?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, he did.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: 4559N is admitted. May it please be given an
7 exhibit number.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2392.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
10 MR. HARMON: May we, Your Honour, go into private session for
11 just a moment.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
13 [Private session]
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 6567
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Page 6567 redacted. Private session.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 6568
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
14 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
15 MR. HARMON: Could I have Prosecution Exhibit 437 on the monitor,
16 Please.
17 Your Honours, this film clip is about 24 minutes or 25 minutes
18 long. I think when Your Honours see this clip, it will -- you will
19 recall what this clip relates to. The purpose of my showing it to
20 Mr. Butler is to have him identify certain persons in there, and I -- at
21 some point in time, if the Court wishes, we can stop this clip after I
22 have advised you that the persons I want identified in the clip have been
23 identified.
24 So I just inform you of that, and we can proceed, first of all,
25 with the Prosecution Exhibit 437.
Page 6569
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Harmon.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. HARMON: We've stopped the film at 01.18.36.1.
4 Q. Mr. Butler, can you identify the individual depicted in this
5 frame?
6 A. Yes, sir, that is Colonel Radoslav Jankovic.
7 Q. All right.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 MR. HARMON: We stopped at film at 01.19.02.3.
10 Q. Can you identify the individual in this particular frame,
11 Mr. Butler?
12 A. Yes, sir, that's General Major Radoslav Krstic.
13 Q. All right.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I'm -- I've completed with this
16 particular film in identifying the relevant persons in this particular
17 film. And with the Court's permission, I will move to a different
18 exhibit at this point. We'll stopped the film at 01.19.16.4.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may move on to the next film, sir.
20 MR. HARMON: All right. Thank you.
21 If we could move to Prosecution Exhibit 438.
22 Q. Mr. Butler, we're going to be looking at the film of the third
23 Hotel Fontana meeting.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 [Prosecution counsel confer]
Page 6570
1 MR. HARMON:
2 Q. Mr. Butler, we've stopped the film at 1.42.51.5.
3 Can you identify the soldier in the camouflage uniform on the
4 right-hand side of this image? He has a dark black mustache, and he is
5 bald.
6 A. Yes, sir. That is Lieutenant-Colonel Svetozar Kosoric. He is the
7 chief of intelligence for the command of the Drina Corps on this
8 particular day. This is 13 July 1995
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MR. HARMON: Identify these people, if we could, from left to
11 right in the frame that is stopped at 01.44.55.4.
12 A. The far left you have General Major Krstic. The figure closest is
13 obviously General Mladic. The young individual wearing the civilian
14 shirt, I believe his name is Petar, and I won't pronounce his last name,
15 I can't pronounce it. He is the interpreter. Then, of course,
16 Colonel Karremans.
17 Q. All right.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MR. HARMON:
20 Q. Now, from the person who is sitting next to Colonel Karremans on
21 the same side of the table, who is that?
22 A. That I believe is Major Boering, sir, from the Dutch battalion.
23 Q. And the next three people in order, do you know who they are?
24 A. I am aware of the female. I believe her name is Camilla Omanovic.
25 I do not know who the next person is down the line there. I don't know
Page 6571
1 who the next -- the young person is. I don't know whether soldier or
2 civilian. And just at the edge of the frame, partially cut in half, is
3 Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric.
4 Q. All right.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 MR. HARMON: I wasn't fast enough to ask us to stop. There was a
7 gentleman who quickly went out of the frame to the right. He was wearing
8 a -- it looked like a multi-coloured shirt. He had a beard. We were at
9 0 --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we go back to where the picture is?
11 MR. HARMON: Yeah, there we are.
12 Q. Mr. Butler, are you able to -- we're at 01.50.19.0.
13 General Mladic is to the right-hand side of that frame. Who is
14 the man who is to the right of General Mladic and is obviously smoking?
15 A. That's Mr. Davidovic, the local SDS chairman for Bratunac.
16 Q. And to his right in, apparently, a yellow or green shirt, who is
17 that?
18 A. Mr. Simic who, I believe, at this time is the mayor of Bratunac.
19 MR. HARMON: Okay, if we could continue.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MR. HARMON: We have stopped at 1.50.24.7.
22 Q. To the right of Mr. Simic, the second person from the right
23 wearing a camouflage uniform, who is that?
24 A. That's Dragomir Vasic. He is the head of the security centre for
25 Zvornik.
Page 6572
1 Q. And to his right in a blue -- it looks like a blue blazer?
2 A. Miroslav Deronjic. At this time he is the civilian commissioner
3 for Srebrenica.
4 Q. And to his right, the far left of the image, he has a moustache
5 and it looks like a camouflage vest?
6 A. That is Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic, sir.
7 Q. All right.
8 MR. HARMON: If we could continue.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 Q. We've stopped at 1.50.27.1.
11 Are you able to identify the person to the right of
12 Colonel Popovic? Colonel Popovic at this time has a glass to his mouth.
13 A. No, sir.
14 Q. Okay. And the person seated at the end of the table on the left,
15 who is that?
16 A. That person is Colonel Jankovic.
17 Q. Okay.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: I believe that the language on the bottom will
22 also be part of the record. And I noticed that when Colonel Karremans
23 was talking, he says, Is it suitable for a meeting. And the language is
24 not contained in the actual written part right -- as here. I don't know
25 whether or not that makes a difference or not with regard to the record.
Page 6573
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Harmon.
2 MR. HARMON: I -- we'll listen to this again. I accept my
3 colleague's observation. It doesn't make any difference in terms what
4 this film portrays.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought that language was written in the centre
6 of the -- of the clip as they interpret.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: You may be well -- you may well be right,
8 Your Honour. It's just as I was listening to Colonel Karremans talk, I
9 heard him say, Is it was suitable. And I didn't see that particular
10 language. I was just raising the issue, but ...
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you just scroll. Can you rewind a little bit,
12 please.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Maybe I missed it.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 Oh, yes, I see what you're saying. Yes, it is there, yes.
16 MR. HARMON:
17 Q. Mr. Butler, based on your review of the documents and the
18 materials available to you, do you know what time this meeting ended, and
19 do you know what happened shortly after this meeting, in Potocari?
20 A. The meeting ended at approximately 1130 hours. And shortly
21 thereafter, many of the VRS officers who were at this meeting, as well
22 as, of course, the Dutch, returned to Potocari. And then shortly after
23 that, a number of buses and trucks start showing up in Potocari to begin
24 moving the civilian population out of the area.
25 Q. Do you know how many Muslim civilians were in Potocari on that
Page 6574
1 day, approximately?
2 A. Reports tend to vary from what the VRS reports versus what the
3 United Nations reports. I think the total number or generally accepted
4 number is about 35.000 people were there.
5 Q. Okay.
6 MR. HARMON: Could we have 65 ter 4559O on the monitor.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 MR. HARMON: We've stopped at 1.54.41.7.
9 Q. Are you able to identify which units these soldiers belonged to?
10 A. Yes, sir. These are individuals who are members of the
11 2nd Sekovici Special Police Unit, that is a member of the Republika
12 Srpska special police brigade.
13 Q. And under whose command were they on this date?
14 A. They were directly commanded by the Deputy Commander of the
15 special police brigade, Ljubo Borovcanin.
16 Q. And under whose command was he operating?
17 A. He was operating under military control, so it would have been
18 General Krstic.
19 MR. HARMON: Okay. Can we continue.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MR. HARMON:
22 Q. Let me ask this question to clarify your last answer, Mr. Butler.
23 This film is taken in the morning of the 13th of July.
24 Would those soldiers have been under the command at that particular point
25 in time of General Krstic or General Zivonovic, or do you know?
Page 6575
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me. Perhaps I'm mistaken. When we
3 started this film, it indicated that it was the 12th of July.
4 MR. HARMON: 12th of July. I meant the 12th of July. That's
5 correct. Thank you, counsel. 12th of July.
6 Q. Mr. Butler, would these soldiers have been under the command of
7 General Krstic who I understood was the Chief of Staff of the Drina Corps
8 at that time?
9 A. Yes, sir and General Zivonovic remains the corps commander, but
10 shortly after this period, General Zivonovic goes back to his command
11 post in around the Vlasenica area. General Krstic is the senior officer
12 of the Drina Corps who remains on the ground at the time, so they are
13 under his control.
14 So I guess you could call it they are still under
15 General Zivanovic's command, but General Krstic is actually in charge of
16 the particular operation.
17 Q. All right. Thank you.
18 MR. HARMON: If we could continue.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 MR. HARMON: We've stopped the film at 1.55.51.5.
21 Q. And in the image on the right-hand side you can see two DutchBat
22 soldiers, blue helmets and carrying rifles.
23 Mr. Butler, are you able, based on that image with those soldiers
24 and those weapons they're carrying, to put an approximate time on this
25 particular film clip on the 12th of July?
Page 6576
1 A. It would be the early afternoon hours, noon, 1300, maybe 1400 at
2 the latest. One of the things that the Dutch report is that as soon as
3 Bosnian Serb military and police forces start entering the compound at
4 Potocari, one of the things that they do is begin to systematically
5 disarm the Dutch soldiers.
6 So by the late afternoon hours on 12 July 1995, the Dutch have
7 effectively been disarmed by the Republika Srpska police and military
8 forces that are there.
9 Q. All right. Thank you.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 [Prosecution counsel confer]
12 MR. HARMON: We're going to replay -- play this for just a
13 minute. I want to identify one person.
14 Q. Okay, if you, Mr. Butler, I'd like you -- we've stopped the film
15 at 1.57.29.5. And there's an individual who appears to be throwing
16 something toward the children. He is on the left-hand side of this
17 image; he's wearing a camouflage uniform. Can you identify him?
18 A. Yes, sir. That is Ljubisav Borovcanin. He is the deputy
19 commander of the Republika Srpska special police brigade.
20 Q. Okay. Thank you.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MR. HARMON: We've stopped the film at 1.59.48.6.
23 Q. Mr. Butler, in the upper left-hand corner there's a logo. Are you
24 able to identify that logo?
25 A. Yes, sir. Same symbol as before. That's Serbia Radio and
Page 6577
1 Television.
2 Q. All right. Thank you.
3 [Video-clip played]
4 MR. HARMON:
5 Q. Mr. Butler, this is stopped at 2.03.09.2.
6 The soldier in the middle of this image with his arm, his right
7 arm on his hip, who is that?
8 A. Again, sir, this is it General Major Radislav Krstic.
9 Q. And Do you know where this film clip was taken?
10 A. This film clip was actually taken at Potocari. As it pans along,
11 you will see one of the buildings there located in Potocari as well as
12 the buses going by.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 MR. HARMON: We have stopped the film at 02.04.05.6.
15 Q. And General Krstic is the individual in the middle of this image.
16 To his left in the background there is a figure who is walking in
17 General Krstic's direction. Can you identify that individual, please?
18 A. That, sir, is Colonel Popovic.
19 Q. Colonel Vujadin Popovic, who we have seen in other film clips?
20 A. Yes, sir. The assistant commander for security for the Drina
21 Corps.
22 Q. All right.
23 MR. HARMON: Continue, please.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 MR. HARMON:
Page 6578
1 Q. Now we have a new interview that is taking place. We've stopped
2 the film at 02.04.26.5. And the person being interviewed, the second
3 individual from the left wearing a camouflage uniform, who is he, and
4 what is his position?
5 A. He is Mr. Zoran Kovakovic. He is the company commander of the 4th
6 Infantry Company of the 2nd battalion of the Bratunac Light Infantry
7 Brigade.
8 Q. Over his left soldier, appearing directly over his left soldier is
9 a bald man with a black moustache. Who is that?
10 A. Yes, sir. That is Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric, the chief of
11 intelligence of the Drina Corps.
12 Q. And can you tell me where this interview is taking place?
13 A. Also in Potocari, sir.
14 Q. All right.
15 MR. HARMON: Please continue.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, could this film clip be given an
18 exhibit number and admitted into evidence.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The film clip is admitted. May it please be given
20 an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2393.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
23 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, this should be an appropriate time to
24 break.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Butler, unfortunately, we have not been able
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1 to finish with you today, so you are going to have to come back tomorrow
2 at quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon in the same courtroom. I believe
3 you have been testifying here several times. You must be knowing the
4 procedure, but it is my duty it repeat it to you. While you are on the
5 witness stand, you may not discuss the case with anybody, not even with
6 Mr. Harmon or anybody from the Prosecution.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I understand.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
9 The matter stands adjourned until tomorrow, at quarter past 2.00
10 in the afternoon, Courtroom II.
11 Court adjourned.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.
13 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 27th day of May,
14 2009, at 2.15 p.m.
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