Page 4002
1 Thursday, 16 November 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, could you call the case,
7 please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
9 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I see that everyone is here except Mr.
11 Bourgon. I take it there are no preliminaries because I see the witness
12 in the courtroom. So let's start. You had not yet concluded your
13 cross-examination, Mr. Meek. Please go ahead.
14 Witness, I just wanted to say good morning to you too. We will be
15 proceeding with the testimony, with your testimony, cross-examinations
16 today. And you are still testifying pursuant to the solemn declaration
17 that you entered yesterday. You don't need to repeat it today. It's
18 still valid for the whole, entire duration of your testimony.
19 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-106 [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Meek.
22 MR. MEEK: Good morning, Your Honours.
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Meek: [Continued]
24 Q. Good morning, Witness. How are you?
25 A. Good morning. I am fine, thank you.
Page 4003
1 Q. Yesterday when we left off, we were speaking about the incident
2 when General Morillon was in Srebrenica in approximately 1992 or 1993. Do
3 you recall that?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. And in one of your answers to the question posed by the
6 Prosecutor, you indicated that you did not personally participate in any
7 action with respect to General Morillon while he was in Srebrenica. Do
8 you remember that?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. What did you understand the Prosecutor to mean when he asked you
11 about any action?
12 A. I meant that I wasn't in any kind of close contact with him. I
13 was very close to the building that he came to and where he was.
14 Q. Didn't you tell Mr. Thayer, the Prosecutor, in your proofing
15 session, that in 1993, when General Morillon arrived in Srebrenica, that
16 you were one of the people who blocked his APC?
17 A. I was in that group of people, but women and children blocked
18 Morillon so that he would stay there until some sort of solution was
19 found, because of the declaration of Srebrenica as a safe zone.
20 Q. So when the Prosecutor, in his letter to Defence counsel, states
21 that you told him that you were one of the people who blocked the APC, is
22 that true or is that false?
23 A. That is false. I was in the immediate vicinity of the place where
24 Morillon was.
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Page 4004
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14 Are you pursuing this?
15 MR. MEEK: For a moment, Your Honour and I apologise.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: These happen and I'm not going to have you
17 guillotined for that. So let's go into private session.
18 [Private session]
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Page 4005
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15 [Open session]
16 MR. MEEK:
17 Q. Witness, you had indicated that after you left Susnjari, you did
18 see human bodies and skeletons on the road; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And in your testimony yesterday, you indicated that you had passed
21 by a certain place and that you could see dismembered human bodies, legs,
22 arms, and your answer was, according to unofficial information, some 60
23 people were dead. Do you recall that?
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?
25 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I think we are talking about two
Page 4009
1 different incidents that need to be clarified. I think this incident was
2 something that happened in Srebrenica. We have been talking about what
3 happened along the column. The clarification I sought was an answer to a
4 question concerning treating the wounded, whether or not the witness had
5 done that along the column at any point and the answer had something to do
6 with bodies and skeletons. That was the clarification I thought I was
7 asking for and we got to some extent but not much, and now we are talking
8 about an event that happened in 1993.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Stop.
10 MR. MEEK: He's correct, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think Mr. Meek got the point. And I agree with
12 Mr. Thayer.
13 MR. MEEK: I do too, Your Honour, and he was actually relating an
14 event that happened a few years earlier.
15 Q. Sir, you testified yesterday that on the 13th of July, you had
16 tried to cross an asphalt road and you came across the first bodies, do
17 you remember that?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. Can you tell us approximately how many bodies you came across at
20 that time?
21 A. It's very difficult to give you a specific number since it was
22 night when we were passing through these difficult places and getting to
23 the free territory. So it's hard to tell. Perhaps there were five, maybe
24 ten in certain places. I don't know.
25 Q. Thank you. Later on you indicated that on the same date, the 13th
Page 4010
1 of July, you returned again and came across more bodies; is that correct,
2 sir?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And could you estimate for us, please, approximately how many
5 bodies that you observed?
6 A. I am saying again, since it was night and it was not possible to
7 see that well, I cannot really be specific, but this path that we used, it
8 was like a small goat path. There were about ten bodies or so. It was
9 hard to say because it was night.
10 Q. Now, I asked you earlier, and I don't think I got an answer, did
11 you, sir, have the occasion to treat any wounded Muslims during your trek
12 from Susnjari until you were arrested?
13 A. No. I did not, since all the people that I saw were people who
14 had been killed.
15 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, we might need to go to private session for
16 the next question.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go to private session, please.
18 [Private session]
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Page 4011
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Page 4012
1 [Open session]
2 MR. MEEK:
3 Q. You testified yesterday that this individual that we've just been
4 discussing in private session was with you for two or three days; is that
5 correct, after you were captured?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And was he assigned to look after you or did he just voluntarily
8 take that upon himself?
9 A. Yes. He was assigned to look after me.
10 Q. When you and your colleagues came out of the woods, did the
11 policeman that captured you, those policemen, did they shoot your
12 colleagues immediately?
13 A. No. They ordered me to surrender, to put my hands up.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think that corresponds to the question that
15 you put to him. Mr. Meek, could you kindly repeat the question? I think
16 it's a problem of interpretation probably.
17 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honour, I will.
18 Q. Sir, at the time that you surrendered and put your hands up with
19 your four colleagues, were your four colleagues shot and killed
20 immediately in your presence or not?
21 A. No, not immediately.
22 Q. Yesterday, you mentioned on page 30 that there was a -- lines 17
23 through 21 -- that there were a large group of prominent people, including
24 ham operators. Do you recall that testimony?
25 A. Yes.
Page 4013
1 Q. Can you tell us the names of any of these ham radio operators?
2 A. I remember one name, I believe that this lad's name was Nedzad.
3 Q. Can you explain why it is that these people, ham radio operators,
4 people from municipal institutions, were making this plan or programme of
5 which direction you would go and when you would leave?
6 A. I don't know why and how this happened.
7 Q. Were there military officers or soldiers from the ABiH army
8 present at that meeting?
9 A. At that moment, I did not see any officers or any military. There
10 were members of the municipal authorities, the ham radio operators,
11 doctors, medical personnel, those people were there at the moment, at the
12 location where I was.
13 Q. Sir, could you tell me, if you can, at the head of the column
14 where you were, approximately how many other medical professionals,
15 doctors, or nurses or ham operators were with you?
16 A. There were no radio ham -- ham radio operators. Actually there
17 were few of them. And as for doctors and other medical personnel, there
18 may have been ten or 15 of them, according to my estimate.
19 Q. Am I correct that you were with the individuals, the Serbs that
20 captured you, for approximately three days, before you were taken to the
21 police station?
22 A. I believe it was two days. I was with them for two days.
23 Q. So in this 48-hour period, you were close to these policemen, were
24 you not? And you could hear them talk and did they talk with you? Did
25 you have conversations with them?
Page 4014
1 A. Yes. They were close to me, in my immediate vicinity.
2 Q. And you were close enough to them that you could overhear their
3 conversation, correct?
4 A. As far as their private conversations went, they would go away
5 from me, so I could not hear their private conversations.
6 Q. So is it your testimony, then, that you never overheard them
7 talking about being from various civil police agencies, from small
8 villages?
9 A. No, I didn't hear that.
10 Q. And, sir, since July of 1995, have you ever seen any of these
11 policemen who captured you in July of 1995?
12 A. No.
13 MR. MEEK: Your Honours, I have no further questions. Thank you.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Meek. Who is next? Ms. Condon?
15 Ms. Condon is appearing together with Mr. Zivanovic for Colonel Popovic in
16 this case and she will be cross-examining you next.
17 MS. CONDON: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, may we go into
18 private session.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.
20 [Private session]
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Page 4015
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6 [Open session]
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. We are in open session.
8 MS. CONDON: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 (redacted)
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11 into private session.
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Page 4020
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2 [Open session]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: So for the record, Ms. Condon has concluded her
4 cross-examination of the witness and Madam Nikolic now will start hers.
5 Madam Nikolic is appearing for Mr. Nikolic in this case. Go ahead.
6 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:
8 Q. Good morning, Witness.
9 A. Good morning.
10 Q. I would like to ask you a few questions about your testimony given
11 yesterday. Yesterday, on page 27 of the transcript, line 16 to 25 and on
12 page 28, in answering the Judge's questions about the nature of the war
13 hospital in Srebrenica and its administration, you said that it had a
14 civilian administration; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can we go into private session, Your Honours, because I'm going to
17 mention a few names?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session, please.
19 [Private session]
20 (redacted)
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Page 4021
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18 [Open session]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, Madam Nikolic has concluded her
20 cross-examination and it's Mr. Krgovic now who is appearing for General
21 Gvero who will be starting his. Go ahead, Mr. Krgovic, and as soon as we
22 require to go into private session, please let us know. We are in open
23 session now.
24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:
Page 4022
1 Q. Sir, I'll ask you a few questions that you already talked about.
2 Where is the hospital in Srebrenica? That will be my first question?
3 A. I don't know how to describe the location. Should I mention some
4 more significant facilities that are close to it or what?
5 Q. Is the hospital in Srebrenica close to the UN base in Srebrenica?
6 A. The hospital was across the road from the post office in
7 Srebrenica, not far from the gas station, i.e., from the place where the
8 post of a Dutch team was.
9 Q. This is the same gas station from which the Kazani starts?
10 A. Yes.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Witness and Mr. Krgovic, please allow a short pause
12 between question and answer because you both speak the same language and
13 the interpreters are having difficulties.
14 Go ahead, Mr. Krgovic.
15 MR. KRGOVIC: Can we go to private session.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's go into private session.
17 [Private session]
18 (redacted)
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16 [Open session]
17 JUDGE AGIUS: So for the record, Mr. Krgovic has just concluded
18 his cross-examination. Who is next? Mr. Lazarevic, who is appearing for
19 accused Borovcanin will now cross-examine you. When we need to go into
20 private session, Mr. Lazarevic, please, tell us and we'll do that.
21 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, thank you and good morning, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic:
24 Q. Good morning, sir.
25 A. Good morning.
Page 4028
1 MR. LAZAREVIC: Could we go to private session right at the
2 beginning just to --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. Let's do that. Let's move into private
4 session.
5 [Private session]
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Page 4033
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11 [Open session]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. You spent a lot of time in Srebrenica. Do you know that people
15 were registered, that they were assigned to certain military units, and
16 that this was done by the Defence Ministry in Srebrenica?
17 A. Probably there was some command that existed, but I don't know
18 whether it was the Ministry of Defence, but in any case, there was some
19 sort of sector there that existed.
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 JUDGE AGIUS: That ruins it for me. So let's redact, please,
24 lines 21 to 23. All right. If you want to pursue this, let's go into
25 private session again and we do it in private session. Or else move on,
Page 4034
1 because I think more or less --
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: I have just one more question in this line and
3 then we will move back.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So let's go into private session,
5 please.
6 [Private session]
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Page 4035
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9 [Open session]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: And we'll have the break in 12 minutes' time, Mr.
11 Lazarevic.
12 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. During your testimony yesterday, you said that you were closer to
14 the front of the column and that at one point you had received an order to
15 go back some 500 metres. And you managed to go back that far, after
16 which, again, because there were activities, you returned to the front of
17 the column. Based on that, can we conclude that you don't know exactly
18 what was happening in the middle of the column, especially at the end of
19 the column or closer to the rear of the column?
20 A. I personally did not manage to get to the rear of the column where
21 the column was cut off. However, information was reaching us that there
22 were many wounded people, dead people, half dead people. So I wasn't at
23 the actual scene and I cannot confirm it 100 per cent, but these are
24 just -- this is some information that reached me.
25 Q. Very well. Thank you. Can we now move to the 12th of July.
Page 4036
1 Responding to Mr. Thayer's questions, you said that on the 12th of July
2 you could hear the sound of armoured vehicles and that judging by the
3 sound, you concluded that the vehicles were moving on a hard surface. Do
4 you remember that part of your testimony?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. And your conclusion was that those vehicles were moving on the
7 asphalt road; is that correct?
8 A. Since the caterpillars of the armoured vehicles could be heard, I
9 assumed it was some sort of hard terrain. It doesn't necessarily have to
10 be an asphalt road. It can also be a macadam road.
11 Q. But the place where you were at the time, it could only have been
12 the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road?
13 A. Well, I didn't know that road very well. I didn't know the
14 terrain very well. And judging by what other people were saying, who were
15 in the woods and in that area, they also had that same idea about the type
16 of terrain.
17 Q. Thank you very much. Let's move to the next day. That's the 13th
18 of July. You said that you crossed the creek, you saw a lot of people
19 that had been killed there. This is in the statement that has been shown
20 to you. Can you please tell me what creek that is? Do you know whether
21 it has a name, this creek?
22 A. These are inaccessible areas; there are many small creeks. There
23 are ten, 20, 30 creeks there. They are not known rivers for me to be able
24 to know their name.
25 Q. On the 14th, you arrived in the river valley according to your
Page 4037
1 testimony. Is this the Cerska river valley, because it wasn't clear
2 here? It was just a river valley. Are we talking about Cerska?
3 A. It is the valley below Kuslat; to be more specific, Karaso or
4 Udrc.
5 Q. And how many of you were there at the time, other than you? How
6 many people from the column were there with you at that time? We are
7 talking about the night of the 14th of July.
8 A. We are not going to insist on the column now, since the column was
9 cut off earlier. Now we can talk about individual groups of people that
10 had been chased away and that were trying to find their own way out to the
11 free territory. At that time, when I had waded the river, I'm talking
12 about the Drinjaca river, there were six people with me. I was the
13 seventh.
14 Q. From your testimony yesterday, I understood that you spent 11 days
15 in wandering around the woods, from the 11th, when you set out. Is this
16 information correct? Is it precise?
17 A. Yes, it is precise.
18 Q. Which leads us to the fact that if you left on the 11th and we can
19 add 11 days to that, so you were captured on the 22nd of July; is that
20 correct?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. That date is a reliable date that you are giving us?
23 A. I assume so, 99 per cent it is.
24 MR. LAZAREVIC: Perhaps I could save some time. In my
25 cross-examination, if the Prosecution is ready to stipulate that General
Page 4038
1 Borovcanin wasn't in the area from 19 of July, he left the area on 19 of
2 July. So I will not have to deal with these topics any more if --
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: We are not ready to go that far at this time, Your
4 Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
6 MR. LAZAREVIC: Very well, then.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, now we can touch upon some events relating
8 to the point in time when you were arrested or captured and when you were
9 transferred from Ugljevik, as you say, to the Batkovic collection centre.
10 You remember that part of your testimony yesterday, do you?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. Can you please tell me, when you arrived at Batkovic, who guarded
13 you?
14 A. The Lieutenant Colonel of what you call the collection centre, the
15 camp. There were guards around at all the observation points.
16 Q. Were these soldiers or policemen in Batkovic?
17 A. As for the -- are you talking about the guards or?
18 Q. The people who were in command, the person who was in charge, the
19 people who guarded you.
20 A. I don't know what they were. In any case, they were in camouflage
21 uniforms.
22 Q. So you cannot give us a reliable answer to this question?
23 A. They called them Sergeant. The warden was a Lieutenant Colonel.
24 That's what they called him.
25 Q. All right. Thank you very much. That is the best that you can
Page 4039
1 remember.
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: I have no further questions.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I thank you, Mr. Lazarevic. There is no point
4 in starting the next cross-examination, now that we have only got three
5 minutes before the break. So we'll break now, and we need to have a
6 30-minute break. Thank you.
7 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you start your cross-examination, Madam
10 Fauveau, Mr. McCloskey, sometime back, I think 25th of October, you had
11 filed a Prosecution motion regarding paragraph 31(1)(B) of the indictment,
12 suggesting two alternative approaches to your statement or stated
13 position. We haven't had any response from any of the Defence teams on
14 this and we were just enquiring before we start deliberating on this
15 motion, whether you wish to take or any one of you would wish to take a
16 position. Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. This is something that we informed them
18 about. It's the Potocari nine body issue, just to remind them. And so
19 people were fairly agreeable at the time but --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Josse?
21 MR. JOSSE: If I can help, Your Honour. From recollection, it was
22 more a matter of a form rather than substance. Needless to say, we, and I
23 suppose I can speak for everyone here, are not going to argue with what
24 the Prosecution propose to do. For our part, we leave it in the Trial
25 Chamber's hands as to which of the two options are preferable. That's
Page 4040
1 speaking on behalf of General Gvero. I can't speak for the other
2 defendants simply because I haven't spoken to my learned friends.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Anyway, if any of the Defence teams
4 wishes to come back on this, please do it again today, after the second
5 break, after which we will then proceed to start deliberating on this.
6 So, yes, Madam Fauveau? Madam Fauveau is appearing for General
7 Miletic and she will be cross-examining you next.
8 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we move to
9 private session.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move to private session straightaway.
11 [Private session]
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 4041
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 [Open session]
13 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now.
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
15 Q. You stated yesterday, on page 21 of the transcript, you stated
16 that the Srebrenica people would go to Zepa in order to get food. Could
17 you explain this? Zepa was an enclave too. How can you account for the
18 fact that Zepa had enough food?
19 A. I could not answer your question with precision. However,
20 according to some information that I received, the reason was that Zepa
21 was less populated than Srebrenica. However, the records show that there
22 were more of them. That's why they received more humanitarian aid and
23 they could stack up some reserves.
24 Q. If I understand you properly, the Zepa authorities had provided
25 erroneous information as to the number of refugees. Did I understand you
Page 4042
1 properly?
2 A. Madam, you understood me well. This is the information that I can
3 share with you, that had reached me.
4 Q. Did you hear of smuggling of humanitarian aid in Srebrenica?
5 A. There were some rumours to that effect.
6 Q. And did you hear about the fact that part of the humanitarian aid
7 was given to the Bosnian army?
8 A. Yes. Some was allocated to the BiH army.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because this answer needs to -- some
10 clarification. The question was whether you heard about the fact that
11 part of the humanitarian aid was given to the Bosnian army and you are
12 answering yes, some was allocated to the BiH army. Do you mean to say
13 that you heard or that you know that part of the humanitarian aid was
14 given to the Bosnian army?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only heard that.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. You may proceed, Madam.
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can we now move to
18 private session?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. Let's go back to private session,
20 please.
21 [Private session]
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 4043
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Pages 4043-4050 redacted.Private session
12
13
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17
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19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 4051
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
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7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 [Open session]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: We will state this for the record. Yes, Madam
19 Fauveau for General Miletic has just concluded her cross-examination, and
20 Mr. Sarapa for General Pandurevic will be cross-examining you next.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Sarapa:
22 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Could we move into
23 private session, please.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move into private session.
25 [Private session]
Page 4052
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Pages 4052-4064 redacted.Private session
12
13
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18
19
20
21
22
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24
25
Page 4065
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 [Open session]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, Mr. Sarapa concluded his
21 cross-examination. Mr. Thayer had a few questions on re-examination of
22 the witness. The Bench doesn't have any questions for the witness. So
23 basically, sir, your testimony ends here. You will now be escorted out of
24 the courtroom and our staff will assist you to facilitate your return back
25 home. On behalf of the Tribunal, I wish to thank you for having come over
Page 4066
1 to give evidence, and on behalf of everyone here, I wish you a safe
2 journey back home.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, who is leading the next witness? Is it you,
6 Mr. Thayer?
7 MR. THAYER: It is I again, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Do you prefer we have the break now?
9 MR. THAYER: I would prefer that, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Meek?
11 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, just for the record, to make it clear,
12 when my colleague Mr. Sarapa was questioning this witness about the
13 shelling of the hospital, at page 55, line 19 and 20, Your Honour, Mr.
14 President, interrupted and told him that this witness had not spoke about
15 shelling today. I just point out on page 17, line 21, the witness did, in
16 fact, talk about the chaos, the shelling of the hospital, and that's when
17 he left, and that was today. I just wanted the record to be clear on
18 that.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Before we bring in the witness,
20 before we have the break, let's have the documents to be tendered.
21 Prosecution?
22 MR. THAYER: Mr. President --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: You have the -- his name and surname.
24 MR. THAYER: The pseudonym sheet, I believe. The number, Your
25 Honour, yes, P02293.
Page 4067
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And the country sheet?
2 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, we do not have a number for that country
3 sheet.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it a Defence document?
5 MR. MEEK: Yes, it is, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Okay. So we'll have it as a
7 Defence document. And I take it there are no further documents.
8 MR. THAYER: No, Mr. President. Thank you.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's start with the Defence, the Beara team.
10 MR. MEEK: May it please the Trial Chamber, we would like to
11 introduce the handwritten note by the witness that had the name of a
12 country on it and I'm told that that would be 2DIC36.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So no objections, I take it.
14 MR. THAYER: None.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I need barely ask. Thank you.
16 Miletic Defence?
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to tender
18 into -- tender into evidence Exhibit number 5D105, the list of names of
19 the people working in the hospital of Srebrenica. And the other document
20 which is 5D106 concerning the name of that doctor working in the hospital.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections?
22 MR. THAYER: None, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So they are so admitted.
24 JUDGE KWON: Only those parts relating to Dr. Pilav.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That's how I take it.
Page 4068
1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We could admit
2 pages 11 and 12 in the English version, page 9 in B/C/S.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Limitedly to the insert concerning Dr. Pilav.
4 The Gvero Defence. Mr. Krgovic?
5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We would like
6 document 6D4 to be admitted into evidence. And having said that, only the
7 first page that is relevant, that was shown to the witness.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Any objections? This is his own
9 purported statement.
10 MR. THAYER: Yes, Your Honour, and I think the practice for our
11 position has been, if it's a short document, we don't have any objection
12 to the entire document coming in. It's literally a two-page document and
13 also provided with the protection of it being under seal since his
14 information is --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Definitely. All right so that will be under seal.
16 And it is so admitted. Yes, Madam Fauveau?
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as the document
18 containing the name of the country is concerned, are we now authorised to
19 show this to the accused who are our clients, i.e., the name of the
20 country that's on the document? Because yesterday, you ruled that the
21 document should only be shown to Defence counsel.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?
24 MR. THAYER: If I may be heard briefly on that, Your Honour. We
25 would object to that. The witness's testimony has been concluded. He
Page 4069
1 obviously had security concerns, evidenced by the protective measures.
2 And we don't see any purpose in providing that information at this time.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Meek?
4 MR. MEEK: I only want to point out, Your Honour, that even before
5 this witness was sworn in and started his testimony, through the proofing
6 notes we got from the OTP, we knew which country he's coming from, and
7 I'll be frank with you, my client already knows it and I told him before
8 you made that ruling.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Fauveau? I don't know why you are
10 insisting on something like this at this point in time, once the testimony
11 has been concluded and he is out of the courtroom. And what's the utility
12 of your client coming to know now where he is residing?
13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to be quite honest, I
14 have no particular use. I find these documents not particularly useful.
15 It's just the process I question. In other words, some documents could be
16 used against our clients and our clients are not informed about the
17 contents of the documents in question. It's much more a matter of
18 principle than anything to do with this document in particular.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, Mr. Josse?
20 MR. JOSSE: Simply this. Could I just endorse what my learned
21 friend Mr. Meek has just said, Your Honour? I was tempted to allude to
22 that yesterday when I rose in relation to something which, frankly,
23 doesn't otherwise concern me, but the fact of the matter is, I simply
24 endorse what Mr. Meek has already said. I won't repeat it.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: And I also do appreciate the fact that you did not
Page 4070
1 raise this issue or make that statement yesterday. I think it was
2 important. But in any case, we don't see the need why this information
3 should be formally passed on to your clients. I mean, you're here
4 representing your clients and you're being made privy to this even before
5 we asked the witness to put down his name. So I think that should put a
6 close on this matter. Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just on a different matter, Mr. President, since
8 we have a little time left, I think as everyone knows, we have been
9 following up on a bit of a process related to the aerial images --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- with the United States and they've allowed
12 somethings to be seen. I don't know anyone's position on that at this
13 point. I think there is probably several -- as many defence exhibits from
14 those images as there are Prosecution, but it's just something that,
15 perhaps, we could take a moment to see where we are on it. I don't know
16 if it's just maybe water under the bridge at this point but --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Do you wish to come back on this later? All
18 right. What's the position with this next witness? He's going to be
19 testifying the rest of today. We need to stop at half past 1.00, by the
20 way, today, because -- half past 1.00, instead of 1.45, it's 1.30.
21 That's number 1.
22 He will -- I take it that you require him in chief for the rest of
23 today and the entire of tomorrow?
24 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I don't think I will need the entire
25 day tomorrow by any means.
Page 4071
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But we will certainly not finish the
2 cross-examinations tomorrow. So he needs to be told, Madam Registrar,
3 that he will be spending the weekend here. All right. So let's have the
4 break now and it will be a 25-minute break. Thank you.
5 --- Recess taken at 12.23 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Josse.
8 MR. JOSSE: Thank you, Your Honour. Earlier today, Your Honour
9 asked for any submissions in relation to paragraph 31(B) of the
10 indictment. I got up and said something. Subsequent to that, all Defence
11 teams have spoken about the matter, and bearing in mind I said something
12 earlier, they've asked me perhaps to be our spokesman in relation to this.
13 We would endorse what the Prosecution say at paragraph 6 of their
14 motion. Our strong preference, Your Honour, is for a judgement of
15 acquittal in relation to this matter, rather than the indictment being
16 amended. Mr. McCloskey, in his motion, uses the words at the appropriate
17 time. We submit the appropriate time should be now for that judgement of
18 acquittal, and that is the course we would invite the Court to take when
19 it comes to deliberate on the Prosecution's motion.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey? Mr. Thayer?
21 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President. The Prosecution's position is
22 that the appropriate time would be at the close of the Prosecution's
23 evidence, with all the other evidence that has been led in the case, not
24 now.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Josse, and of course the rest
Page 4072
1 of the Defence teams and Mr. Thayer. We'll come back to you on this
2 later.
3 The other thing, before we bring in the witness, there are two
4 motions plus some follow-ups, one from General Miletic, the other one from
5 Mr. Gvero for provisional release during the forthcoming recess. Would it
6 be possible for the Prosecution to respond by -- to both motions by the
7 end of business tomorrow?
8 MR. THAYER: I think we certainly can, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That will help us mature our judgement on
10 these two issues in the course of next week. All right.
11 So can we bring in the witness? And Madam Registrar, I want to be
12 sure that he has been told that he will be spending the weekend here.
13 Also, I have no indication at all as to the estimated time, at
14 least at this stage, for cross-examination. Yes?
15 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, we believe that we
16 will deliver it in the morning, not only for the witness that is coming
17 now, but also for the witnesses for the next two weeks.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, sir.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: And I welcome you to this Tribunal and to this case,
23 where you will be testifying as a Prosecution witness. Our rules require
24 that before you start your testimony, you enter a solemn declaration to
25 the effect that in the course of your testimony, you will speak the truth,
Page 4073
1 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The next is going to be
2 handed to you now. Please read it out aloud and that will be your solemn
3 undertaking with us that you will be testifying the truth.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
5 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
6 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-107
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Please take a seat and make yourself comfortable.
9 There are a couple of things I need to explain to you before you start
10 testifying.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: So we have, at the request of the Prosecution,
13 granted you three protective measures. One is the use of a pseudonym
14 instead of your real name. You will be referred to by a number; you are
15 Prosecution Witness 107. When we need to deal with matters that would
16 directly or indirectly reveal your identity, we will do so in private
17 session, which means that no one will be able to follow outside these --
18 outside this courtroom. We have also granted you facial and voice
19 distortion. And I understand that this has all been explained to you
20 already.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I just want to make sure that you are
23 satisfied with this arrangement.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: The other thing I wanted to alert you to is the
Page 4074
1 following. We will start today, and it's just half an hour today, and
2 then you will continue tomorrow morning. But I don't think we will be
3 ready with you by the end of tomorrow's sitting. I think you need to be
4 aware, and if you weren't aware already, to inform your family that you
5 will be staying here over the weekend for sure and then we will continue
6 with your testimony on Monday. More or less tomorrow, I should be able to
7 tell you whether we will finish on Monday. But let's hope for the time
8 being we mark -- we mark that as the day when your testimony should be
9 over.
10 All right?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Now, you are going to be first examined by
13 Mr. Thayer, who is the officer in the Prosecution team that is in charge
14 of you. And then later on, we'll have the seven cross-examinations. Yes.
15 You don't think there is room or the necessity, I haven't got a clue, to
16 caution the witness? Is there? Or not?
17 MR. THAYER: In terms of the usual warnings about --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Self incrimination, yes.
19 MR. THAYER: At this point, such a warning, out of an abundance of
20 caution, would be appropriate, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: So let me explain one other thing to you, sir.
22 As you will see, there will be questions fired at you from both
23 Prosecution and Defence throughout these days when you will be
24 cross-examined -- when you will be testifying. Now, we have a special
25 rule which more or less reflects a general principle of criminal procedure
Page 4075
1 worldwide, namely, that if a question is put to you that, by answering, it
2 would tend to incriminate you, expose you to any criminal proceedings,
3 then you can ask to be allowed not to answer that question. Asking does
4 not mean necessarily that you will be granted such permission, such
5 exemption. We will evaluate your objection, your request, at the time,
6 and we may come to one conclusion, namely, exempting you from answering
7 that question or ordering you to answer that question. In answering that
8 question, however, I want to put your mind at rest that our rules make it
9 compulsory that any evidence that you give in such circumstances, when you
10 have been compelled to give that evidence, shall not be used as evidence
11 in any subsequent Prosecution that there might be against you for any
12 offence, except if we catch you here giving false testimony, perjuring
13 yourself. Have I made myself clear?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: If you need any further explanation or elucidation,
16 please, don't hesitate to come forward and we will explain everything to
17 you.
18 Mr. Thayer.
19 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. Just for clarification,
20 are we going to 1.15 or 1.30 this session?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I said 1.30.
22 MR. THAYER: Okay.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: You understand 1.30 like I understand it, because
24 when I worked with a judge until recently, when I say half past 2.00,
25 would mean 30 minutes before 2.00 and not past 2.00. So 1.30.
Page 4076
1 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Examination by Mr. Thayer:
3 Q. Sir, Madam Usher is about to hand you a sheet of paper. I would
4 ask if you would take a look at it, read it to yourself, and confirm that
5 your name is printed on the piece of paper under PW-107.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Witness, you tend to speak softly sometimes, so I would just ask
8 you to try to keep as close to the microphone as you can. And I would ask
9 you further, before answering a question, just make sure that you pause so
10 that you've heard the entire question as it's translated and leave a
11 little bit of time so that the interpreters can catch up. Okay?
12 A. Very well.
13 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, may we go into private session?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.
15 [Private session]
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 4077
1
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10
11 Pages 4077-4079 redacted.Private session
12
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15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 4080
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 [Open session]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now.
7 MR. THAYER:
8 Q. Witness, was there a regional authority based in Bijeljina to
9 which your SJB was subordinated?
10 A. Yes, to the public security centre in Bijeljina.
11 Q. And may we refer to that as the CJB Bijeljina for the rest of your
12 testimony, sir?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. As a municipal police officer, Witness, did you have much reason
15 to visit that CJB?
16 A. No.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Do you want to retain line 3 and 4
18 without being redacted or?
19 MR. THAYER: I'm comfortable with that, Your Honour, given the
20 scope --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: The important thing is I want to make sure your mind
22 is at rest on that, okay.
23 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Q. In addition to your civilian police work, Witness, were you also
25 called upon to perform military duties in addition to that work?
Page 4081
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you perform service with some regularity in the field under a
3 different terminology other than police officer?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Would you please describe for the Trial Chamber what that work
6 was?
7 A. It involved us going out into the field, or as we say in our
8 parts, to the line, for 10- or 15-day stretches. That would be considered
9 going into the field.
10 Q. And when you were performing such duties, what kind of unit were
11 you organised into?
12 A. We were part of the police under the supervision of the CJB.
13 Q. And were you organised into any particular type of formation when
14 you were under the supervision of the CJB in the field?
15 A. We were a separate police unit. It doesn't mean that we were
16 special police. There is a difference between special police and separate
17 police.
18 Q. Is it fair to say, sir, that the unit you belonged to when you
19 were in the field was the posebna jedinica policije? Forgive me for my
20 pronunciation.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And may we abbreviate that to PJP for the rest of your testimony?
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we please get to know what that means?
25 MR. THAYER:
Page 4082
1 Q. The -- sir, the phrase I just mangled in your language, did you
2 understand what I was saying, and if so, can you please explain what that
3 term is?
4 JUDGE AGIUS: He can repeat it himself and then it will be
5 interpreted well.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat that.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I'll ask you the question. What do the letters PJP
8 stand for in your language?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Posedna jedinica policije, special
10 unit of police.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer. Yes, Mr. Lazarevic, I see you
12 about to stand up.
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: Maybe this is the moment where we should establish
14 some standard, I believe, that my colleagues from the Prosecution already
15 mentioned in his opening statement that we have to make a difference
16 between PJP, which are separate police units, and special police units,
17 and the witness, I believe, started already to give his explanation. But
18 right, we have a problem with the interpretation because here again what
19 he said was translated as special unit of police, which is incorrect. So
20 maybe, I believe, that Mr. Thayer understands the difference and he will
21 make sure that everything is proper in the transcript.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Lazarevic. I think -- I
23 recollect what you're referring to and I saw also Mr. McCloskey at some
24 point in time also on his feet. Mr. Thayer, I suppose you can engage the
25 witness on this once it has been raised and we have it clarified before we
Page 4083
1 adjourn until tomorrow.
2 MR. THAYER:
3 Q. Witness, did you follow the discussion that was just had?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And your understanding of PJP is that it is translated as a
6 separate police unit; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And that is distinct from a different element of MUP that you
9 earlier referred to as the special police, and I'll go ahead and ask you
10 that series of questions now. Are you familiar with what was known within
11 MUP as the Special Police Brigade?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And if you are familiar with their general duties, would you
14 please describe how they differed, in your understanding, from the duties
15 that you were performing as a PJP officer?
16 A. The tasks of the posebna jedinica, of the police, was to hold the
17 ground, to maintain the line, in that sense. And then the special
18 jedinica would go to win or conquer, capture terrain. The posebna
19 jedinica would keep the terrain that was captured.
20 Q. Now, when you were serving as a PJP officer in the field, what
21 kind of actual operational unit were you part of? And I mean that in
22 terms of the military structure, in terms of your organisation, as you
23 moved in the field.
24 A. It was organised under the MUP. They were -- we would receive
25 orders from them and everything else that had to be done.
Page 4084
1 Q. And can you describe how the personnel that would form the PJP
2 units were drawn?
3 A. I really wouldn't be able to tell you how they were formed or
4 drawn.
5 Q. Well, what level of combat team were you a member of?
6 A. Could you please clarify that?
7 Q. When you were out in the field, sir, how big was the group you
8 were operating with, and was it referred to by a particular military term?
9 A. We had nothing to do with the military. We were directly
10 subordinated to the Bijeljina CJB. And the formation was a company
11 numbering 100 to 120 men. And we would be going to all the different
12 areas covering the different terrain.
13 Q. And where were these men drawn from, sir?
14 A. Mostly from the surrounding area. I mean from that municipality.
15 Q. And would they be police officers, like yourself, from various
16 municipalities?
17 A. No. Mostly from that municipality.
18 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I see it's 1.30.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Thayer. Sir, we have to stop here
20 today. We will continue tomorrow morning at 9.00. In the meantime,
21 between now and then, you are not to communicate with anyone or allow
22 anyone to communicate with you in relation to the subject matter of your
23 testimony on what you're testifying upon. Is that clear?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.
Page 4085
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.30 p.m.,
2 to be reconvened on Friday, the 17th day of
3 November, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.
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