1 Monday, 12 March 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Madam Registrar, good morning to you. Could you

7 kindly call the case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am. All the accused are here.

11 Defence teams, I notice the absence of Mr. Haynes, Mr. Krgovic.

12 Yes, Mr. Sarapa.

13 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Mr. Haynes will join us tomorrow.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Krgovic.

15 MR. JOSSE: A little later today, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. On the Prosecution side I notice

17 Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Thayer.

18 Good morning to you, Witness.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope you had a relaxing weekend. We'll continue

21 with your testimony today. I don't think we will finish with you today.

22 So -- but we will do our best to finish with your evidence as quickly as

23 we can. Mr. Thayer will continue his examination-in-chief.

24 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-160 [Resumed]

25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

1 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

2 Honours. Good morning, everyone.

3 Examination by Mr. Thayer: [Continued]

4 Q. Good morning, sir.

5 A. Good morning.

6 Q. Before we continuing discussing your activities of the 13th of

7 July, I just want to clarify one area, if I could. You testified last

8 Friday that no Jahorina units stayed in Potocari on the night of the 12th

9 of July. And that's at page 8608, lines 22 to 24 of the transcript.

10 A. As far as I can remember, I don't think they spent the night there

11 between the 12th and 13th.

12 Q. So do you recall approximately how many Jahorina members remained

13 along the communication on the night of 12 July? If you don't remember

14 approximate numbers, perhaps, if you could tell the Trial Chamber, in your

15 recollection, how many platoons, to your recollection, were left on the

16 communication during the evening of 12 July.

17 A. I can't remember the exact number. On Friday I gave you a rough

18 idea of the number. I know that on the 12th of July at night there was an

19 order, according to which another platoon should be added to the

20 communication. Another platoon from the base that we were billeted at

21 went to provide security of that section of that communication, which

22 part, I don't know. I don't know whether there were six platoons in

23 total, but all I know is that extra platoon went -- secured the

24 communication or road. In addition to the other men, there must have been

25 around 200 then, give or take a few. I can't be precise.

1 As to who went with them, I think that one of the instructors and

2 the platoon command went to the road. As to who the platoon commander

3 was, I cannot remember that either now, believe me.

4 Q. Okay. Let's turn to the 13th of July, please. Did you still have

5 your radio on that day?

6 A. I think I had the radio with me throughout the day.

7 Q. Now, do you recall seeing any separations of Muslim men from their

8 families on the 13th of July?

9 A. As far as I can remember, no.

10 Q. Do you recall receiving any reports of that happening on the 13th

11 of July?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you recall seeing any civilians abused, hit, kicked or pushed

14 towards or on to any of the buses on the 13th of July, sir?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And do you recall receiving any reports of that happening on the

17 13th of July?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you recall seeing any Muslim men directed towards or placed in

20 any detention centres located around the UN base on the 13th of July, sir?

21 A. No, sir.

22 Q. And do you recall receiving any reports of that happening on the

23 13th of July?

24 A. No, sir.

25 Q. Do you recall seeing or having any contact with Momir Nikolic on

1 the 13th of July?

2 A. No, sir.

3 Q. Do you recall having contact or conversations with any VRS

4 officers on the 13th of July, sir?

5 A. I can't remember, sir.

6 Q. Well, on the 13th of July, did you receive any reports of Muslims

7 surrendering or being captured along that communication that we've been

8 discussing?

9 A. I didn't receive such information, but I did hear that they

10 surrendered, that they were captured.

11 Q. Well, what did you hear, and do you recall when you heard it, sir?

12 A. Well, I can't remember when I heard about this, but I received

13 information according to which that night, between the 12th and 13th, some

14 of the Muslim forces surrendered. As to what happened to them, believe

15 me, I don't know.

16 Q. Did you receive any information in terms of where these Muslims

17 surrendered or where they were taken once they were captured?

18 A. Well, they surrendered in the vicinity of the road. As to where

19 they were taken to, I didn't know. And then later I received information.

20 Q. And when you say "Later I received information," to what are you

21 referring, sir?

22 A. Well, I heard that that had happened, that's what I'm referring

23 to.

24 Q. Now, sir, you told me and an OTP investigator, just the night

25 before you began testifying here, that you left Potocari on the 13th of

1 July to go somewhere. Can you please tell the members of the Trial

2 Chamber what you told us you did?

3 A. I said that in the afternoon I set off in the direction of

4 Bijeljina, and that by the road I saw a certain number of dead people.

5 Q. And if I could just interrupt you right there, please --

6 A. And their effects.

7 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, if we may enter private session just for

8 a little while, please.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do that.

10 [Private session]

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8 [Open session]

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard that a group of Muslims that

10 had been captured or had surrendered had been placed in that hangar and

11 that an attack had been launched or, rather, an attempt to take away the

12 rifles from those men who had been captured by the Deputy Commander of the

13 Sekovici platoon. There was a fight, and afterwards the people who had

14 been captured were eliminated there.

15 Q. Okay. First, sir, when do you recall receiving this information?

16 A. I don't know exactly, believe me.

17 Q. Can you estimate for Their Honours approximately how soon after

18 these events that you heard occurred happened, did you find this out?

19 A. I don't know exactly. The information was relayed rapidly. There

20 were these rumours that spread very rapidly.

21 Q. Can you say whether it was a matter of hours versus a matter of

22 days versus a matter of weeks, sir?

23 A. I couldn't say how fast, but the territory is a fairly confined

24 territory, so it spreads very quickly. I think it's a matter of hours or

25 a day at the most.

1 Q. Do you recall who informed you about these events?

2 A. Believe me, I don't remember.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

4 MR. LAZAREVIC: I hate to interrupt, but I believe if my

5 colleague takes a look at the transcript, I believe it needs some

6 clarification, because here on page 6, line 14, says that an attack had

7 been launched or rather an attempt to take away the rifles from those men

8 who had been captured. And it doesn't make much sense.

9 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I'm --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he is 100 per cent right, so if you could

11 address that.

12 MR. THAYER: Absolutely, I'm intending to elicit more detail.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Lazarevic.

14 MR. THAYER:

15 Q. Now, let's go back and let me ask you a few more questions

16 concerning what you heard about this incident at the Kravica hangar.

17 The -- first, the transcript indicates the Sekovici platoon. What, if

18 you remember, was the unit that you heard was involved in this incident?

19 A. I don't know which unit was involved, but as far as I did know

20 they mentioned the Sekovici detachment. As to whether there were any

21 other units or men there, believe me, I don't know.

22 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, if we may move into private session for

23 one question, please.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's move to private session, please.

25 [Private session]

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16 [Open session]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember what I --

19 according to what I heard, I think there was an attempt to take away the

20 rifles from that officer, or rather the Deputy Commander of the Sekovici

21 detachment. And then all the other things that happened, happened. There

22 was a fight as a result of the rifle, and what happened afterwards.

23 Q. And did you hear any story or account of any injuries suffered by

24 that Deputy Commander?

25 A. Apparently he burnt his hand when grabbing the barrel and so on.

1 Believe me, I don't know. I heard that he was grabbing the barrel with

2 his hand when he was attacked. I don't know whether fire was opened on

3 that occasion or not, but he just grabbed the barrel. And if he burnt

4 his hand I can assume that the barrel was hot, as they say.

5 Q. And were you told whether any of the prisoners survived?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Is that, no, you weren't told; or, no, prisoners survived from

8 what you were told?

9 A. Well, I don't know. I didn't hear anything about whether anyone

10 survived or not.

11 Q. Well, sir, did you ever speak with that Deputy Commander or any

12 other members of the unit that was deployed there about those events?

13 A. I can't remember, sir, believe me. Perhaps, but I can't

14 remember, believe me.

15 Q. And who was the overall commander on the ground of that unit at

16 that time, sir?

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 Q. And Your Honour, this is my fault. I apologise, if we could have

20 a redaction at lines 19 and 20 of page 9.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go ahead.

22 MR. THAYER: If we may move into private session just briefly,

23 Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move into private session for a while.

25 [Private session]

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15 [Open session]

16 MR. THAYER:

17 Q. Now, sir, you had testified a short while ago about leaving

18 Potocari and travelling home. Can you tell the Trial Chamber

19 approximately how long you recall being absent from your duties in

20 Potocari on the 13th of July?

21 A. I think it was between five and six hours.

22 Q. Do you recall you left -- whether you left on that trip before or

23 after the transportations had ended on the 13th of July, sir?

24 A. I don't know exactly, but I think I set off in the afternoon.

25 Q. Now, sir, leaving your post for several hours during the middle of

1 the Srebrenica operation doesn't sound like an insignificant detail. Do

2 you have any explanation for why you failed to mention this trip in your

3 OTP interview or during your testimony in the prior trial?

4 A. Well, I don't know. I'm trying to remember all the details now

5 too, to the extent that it's possible. I'm trying to remember all the

6 events because -- well, first of all, for my own sake, and because I'm

7 here for the sake of my testimony, and in order to shed light on

8 everything that happened down there. Because I'm now a witness at the

9 International Tribunal, and everything I state could appear at some other

10 court, and could serve to accuse me of having acted in a certain way. I'm

11 trying to remember everything I can, to the extent that that is possible.

12 Much time has passed since all those things happened, so I'm simply trying

13 to remember all the details.

14 Q. Well, sir, do you recall approximately what time of day it was

15 when you returned home from this -- or when you left home after this trip?

16 A. I think it was night-time.

17 Q. And where did you --

18 A. Night-time.

19 Q. Where did you return after this trip?

20 A. I returned to where we were billeted at Bjelovac in school.

21 Q. And on the night of the 13th of July, were any Jahorina or regular

22 special brigade or PJP members, to your knowledge, assigned to guard

23 duties in Bratunac?

24 A. I did not understand your question, please.

25 Q. I'll take it one piece at a time then. On the 13th of July, sir,

1 were any Jahorina units assigned to any guard duties in or around the town

2 of Bratunac, excluding the communication?

3 A. To the best of my knowledge, not in Bratunac. Around Bratunac,

4 along the road, I believe that there was just one unit or detachment of

5 the deserters from Jahorina.

6 Q. And, sir, same question with respect to regular special police

7 brigade or PJP members. Do you have any knowledge as to whether any of

8 those units were assigned to guard duties in the town or immediately

9 around the town of Bratunac, excluding the communication?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour, because

12 of the complexity of the question. When you mentioned PJP, that entails

13 six companies that are at the time located in or around Bratunac, so this

14 question is ill-defined and very complex.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I wouldn't question whether it is complex or not,

16 but I think the witness, on Friday, repeatedly referred to various units

17 including the PJP units. If he thinks that the question is too complex,

18 he can't answer it, then we'll ask Mr. Thayer of course to be more

19 specific. But if the witness can answer it, I think he should go ahead.

20 Witness, have you followed the conversation?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you think you are in a position to answer

23 Mr. Thayer's question?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I answered to the best of my

25 knowledge. I believe that units from Jahorina were placed along the

1 communication. Whether the Sekovici detachment was there, where they were

2 supposed to be, I don't know. Who was deployed elsewhere, well, that I,

3 believe me, do not know which units were deployed in the rest of the

4 territory. That I do not know, believe me.

5 MR. THAYER: I'll just leave it there then.

6 Q. Now, sir, on the night of 13th of July, were you aware that

7 thousands of prisoners were being held in Bratunac, in the town?

8 A. I do not know that, sir.

9 Q. Okay. That brings us to the 14th of July, sir. Did you receive

10 any reports that day about any Jahorina unit members being injured?

11 A. Yes, I received reports that three members from Jahorina had been

12 wounded along that communication road. I don't know which section, that

13 there was an assault, that a grenade had been thrown at them and that

14 those who had thrown the grenade had fled. I don't know how they were

15 transported to the hospital. I think in the evening of -- I don't know

16 which day -- went to the hospital to visit them. I found them in the

17 Zvornik hospital. Maybe on the 14th or the 15th in the evening, I'm not

18 sure which. It could have been the 16th. I'm not sure.

19 Q. Okay. Do you recall where you actually slept on the evening of

20 the 14th of July?

21 A. I think I slept at Bjelovac, as far as I can remember, the place

22 where we were billeted at.

23 Q. Now, can you tell the Trial Chamber what, if anything, you recall

24 doing on the 15th of July?

25 A. I had been given tasks to continue securing the communication, and

1 I spent some time in Bjelovac. I divided my time between Bjelovac and

2 Bratunac. (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 Q. Okay. First of all, sir, when you refer to being given tasks to

8 continue securing the communication, who gave you those tasks?

9 A. Mr. Borovcanin.

10 Q. Now, you referred to a meeting with Mr. Borovcanin and a --

11 according to the transcript, Mr. Dervenic. (redacted)

12 (redacted)

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17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 Q. I want to turn your attention to the 16th of July, sir. At some

20 point on that day did you receive another order from Mr. Borovcanin about

21 the patrols along the road?

22 A. I was given an order to withdraw men from the communication to

23 form patrols and to use the BRDM vehicle from the public security station

24 of Bratunac and a jeep and to patrol the communication. Since the BRDM

25 vehicle was out of repair, we couldn't use it. We used a Pinzgauer and

1 the jeep to patrol the security of the communication in this way.

2 Q. Can you just tell us what is a BRDM and what are you referring to

3 when you speak about a Pinzgauer?

4 A. Pinzgauer is an off-road vehicle for soldiers' transportation and

5 BRDM is an armoured vehicle.

6 Q. Now, sir, do you recall receiving any other orders on the 16th of

7 July?

8 A. Well, on the 16th, in the evening, I believe it was, I was ordered

9 to report to Major Nikolic to search and comb the area. In the evening

10 hours, maybe in -- around 2300 hours, I met Major Nikolic at the Bratunac

11 Brigade headquarters. He told me that the briefing was supposed to be

12 next morning between 8.00 and 9.00 at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters,

13 and to be given tasks about our and their tasks within the combing -- to

14 comb the area and the territory.

15 In the morning I went to the Bratunac Brigade command

16 headquarters. I am not sure who chaired the briefing, but I know that

17 tasks had been arranged and we divided up the territory and, as they say,

18 we were given pieces of territory to search and the deployment of both

19 military and police units. We had Sapas to demine the areas and from the

20 police side we had units with guard dogs, search dogs and we were given

21 tasks. We distributed maps, we were given tasks, we arranged for a

22 communication methods and on the 17th we were supposed to start combing

23 the area at 10.00 in the morning. But we were delayed and I can't

24 remember when we started from the departure point. I can't remember which

25 one.

1 Q. Let me just stop you right there, sir. Turning your attention

2 back to the 16th of July, for just a moment, who gave you the order to

3 meet with Momir Nikolic?

4 A. I can't remember. I think there was an order, and I know that I

5 met Mr. Borovcanin on -- in the evening of the 16th. Whether this order

6 emanated from somebody else or -- I don't know. Could have been it was an

7 order of the brigade commander's, Mr. Saric's. This is what I know when

8 it comes to that.

9 Q. Okay. But who personally ordered you to go to Bratunac and meet

10 Momir Nikolic?

11 A. I think it was Mr. Borovcanin.

12 Q. Well, at that time, sir, do you recall who else personally could

13 have given you that order on the ground?

14 A. I think that Mr. Saric could have done that. He was a brigade

15 commander.

16 Q. To your knowledge, was Mr. Saric on the ground at this time, in

17 the area?

18 A. I did not see him, but I received information that he had arrived

19 to the area.

20 Q. Now, turning your attention, sir, back to the 17th of July and

21 this searching of the terrain operation. Do you recall who from the

22 Bratunac Brigade was represented at the meeting? And if you don't recall

23 particular people, do you recall what their positions were?

24 A. I don't recall the names of the people and, to be frank, I cannot

25 recall their positions.

1 Q. Well, do you recall who gave you the order at the Bratunac Brigade

2 headquarters on the 17th of July to go out and conduct this search

3 operation?

4 A. I think that the officer who chaired the briefing did that.

5 Q. And was this officer a member of the Bratunac Brigade or was this

6 person a member of the special police brigade?

7 A. As far as I know, I received an order to search the area at the

8 Bratunac Brigade headquarters.

9 Q. And to the best of your recollection, sir, did that order come

10 from a member of the Bratunac Brigade or a member of some other unit?

11 A. Could you clarify that question for me, please?

12 Q. On the 17th of July, sir, at the meeting at the Bratunac Brigade,

13 when you received the final order to commence the search operation, once

14 the parameters of the operation had been decided and worked out, do you

15 recall who gave you that order? If you can't remember the individual's

16 name, can you tell the Trial Chamber what unit that individual belonged

17 to?

18 A. I don't know that exactly, sir. I know that I attended that

19 meeting at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters. I know that we were given

20 tasks, that we were given maps and that we agreed on a method of reporting

21 and that we set out to perform that task.

22 Q. Well, do you remember whether the order came from a VRS officer as

23 opposed to a MUP officer?

24 A. I don't know that, sir, believe me. I know that this meeting took

25 place and it unfolded the way that I explained.

1 Q. Can you briefly describe what you did on this operation, sir?

2 A. Well, we simply combed the area. We were on the look-out for

3 Muslim forces in the area. We went through the area to check whether

4 there were -- well, this is what we did.

5 Q. And did you take any prisoners or did anyone surrender to you

6 during that time?

7 A. In the evening hours I said that some 200 Muslims and four

8 children had surrendered. I don't know at which location exactly. And I

9 know that they -- that children were given to the care of Captain Gavric

10 and that the rest were transported in the direction of Konjevic Polje.

11 Whether there were fewer or more than 200, I would be mistaken if I were

12 to speculate. I know that, as far as I can recall, some people were

13 detailed to provide security on behalf of military and police, and

14 (redacted)

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16 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, if we may go into private session for

17 one moment.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Sure. Let's go into private session.

19 [Private session]

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5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.

7 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 [Videotape played]

9 MR. THAYER:

10 Q. Sir, this clip that the ran at 2 hours, 26 minutes, 51 seconds to

11 2 hours, 26 minutes, and 55 seconds, there is an individual at the left of

12 the screen. Can you identify what unit that individual belonged to?

13 A. To the deserters' unit from Jahorina.

14 Q. Okay. We'll move along.

15 MR. THAYER: We're going to skip a clip to save a little time.

16 [Videotape played]

17 MR. THAYER:

18 Q. And again, sir, do you recognise anybody in this clip which began

19 at 2 hours, 29 minutes, 45 seconds and ended at 2 hours, 29 minutes, 57.9

20 seconds?

21 A. I recognise Mr. Borovcanin and the young man in the blue flak

22 jacket, who was a member of the deserters' unit from Jahorina.

23 Q. And for the record, Mr. Borovcanin is to the immediate left of

24 the flak jacket, the man in the flak jacket.

25 A. Yes.

1 MR. THAYER: We're going to skip another clip to save a little

2 time.

3 [Videotape played]

4 MR. THAYER:

5 Q. Now, this clip which began at 2 hours, 37 minutes, 43 seconds and

6 ended at 2 hours and 38 minutes, can you identify the unit from which

7 this individual, in the centre of the image, is from?

8 A. Could you sharpen the image a bit, please.

9 Q. We can replay it, certainly. And, sir, for each of these

10 videotape clips, did I also show you a still photograph based on that

11 clip at my office last week?

12 A. You did, sir.

13 [Videotape played]

14 MR. THAYER:

15 Q. Did that help at all, sir?

16 A. Yes. I think this is a member of the special police brigade.

17 That's how I would identify him on the basis of this image. Because of

18 the insignia that they had on their uniforms on the sleeves of their

19 uniforms.

20 [Videotape played]

21 MR. THAYER:

22 Q. Sir, this clip which began at 2 hours, 39 minutes and 21 seconds

23 and ended at 2 hours, 39 minutes and 43.7 seconds, can you identify the

24 unit to which the individual in the immediate foreground of this image

25 belongs?

1 A. I think he was a member of the special police brigade within the

2 Sekovici detachment.

3 Q. Now, sir, you referred to a patch or insignia previously and with

4 respect to the individual in the clip we just saw before this one, do you

5 see that patch as well in this image?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And where is that patch, sir?

8 A. On his left sleeve of his uniform.

9 [Videotape played]

10 MR. THAYER:

11 Q. Now, sir, having just viewed this clip, including a slow-motion

12 version, the clip beginning at 2 hours, 39 minutes, 54 seconds and ending

13 at 2 hours, 40 minutes and 11 seconds, do you recognise that location just

14 depicted?

15 A. Not exactly. I had the opportunity of seeing some of the Muslims

16 who had surrendered on the 12th or on the 13th. I know that on that

17 occasion those who had surrendered were on a sort of plateau; it was like

18 a slight elevation. As far as I can remember, at the time when that group

19 surrendered, General Mladic also spoke to them. As for the exact

20 location, well, I don't know where it was, believe me.

21 Q. Okay. So let me ask you, to the best of your recollection, as you

22 sit here today, do you recognise the location that was just depicted in

23 that video clip?

24 A. Well, I'm trying to answer that question. I remember this detail.

25 I know that I personally saw a group that surrendered, and I think that at

1 that time it was on a plateau, and I think that General Mladic and perhaps

2 others spoke to them. I don't know, whatever I said, if -- might be

3 doubtful, I can't remember very well. I know that at the road that was

4 secured by the unit from Jahorina, I know there was a -- the road secured

5 by the unit from Jahorina.

6 Q. Okay. We'll move along then.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MR. THAYER:

9 Q. This clip which began at 2 hours, 47 minutes and has ended at 2

10 hours, 47 minutes and 22 seconds, can you identify from what unit this

11 individual holding the automatic rifle belonged?

12 A. To the deserters' unit from Jahorina.

13 Q. Okay. Continuing.

14 [Videotape played]

15 MR. THAYER:

16 Q. And at 2 hours, 47 minutes and 51.5 seconds, can you recognise

17 what unit this individual wearing the gloves was from?

18 A. To the deserters' unit from Jahorina.

19 Q. Okay. Continuing.

20 [Videotape played]

21 MR. THAYER: We're going to skip ahead a little bit, try to save

22 some time.

23 [Videotape played]

24 MR. THAYER:

25 Q. Do you recognise anyone by name or by unit in this clip at 2

1 hours, 49 minutes and 17.4 seconds, sir?

2 A. I can recognise Mr. Borovcanin.

3 Q. And that's it; is that correct, sir?

4 A. I can recognise him, but not the others.

5 Q. Okay. Continuing.

6 [Videotape played]

7 MR. THAYER:

8 Q. Now at 2 hours, 49 minutes and 20.9 seconds, do you recognise the

9 unit or this particular individual by name in the purple shirt in the

10 middle of the image, sir?

11 A. I can't recognise this man in the T-shirt, but I think he is part

12 of the special police brigade, because he had such a uniform on him,

13 although he had taken the upper part off. He had this characteristic jump

14 suit.

15 MR. THAYER: Moving along.

16 [Videotape played]

17 MR. THAYER:

18 Q. And at 2 hours, 49 minutes and 37.9 seconds, do you recognise the

19 unit of this individual?

20 A. He was a member of the deserters' unit from Jahorina.

21 Q. Okay.

22 [Videotape played]

23 MR. THAYER:

24 Q. And at 2 hours, 49 minutes and 45.5 seconds, do you recognise the

25 unit of this individual with the automatic rifle pointed down?

1 A. He was a member of the deserters' unit from Jahorina.

2 [Videotape played]

3 MR. THAYER:

4 Q. Sir, having seen this clip, which is stopped at 2 hours, 50

5 minutes, 17.3 seconds, do you recognise anyone depicted in this still?

6 A. I can recognise Mr. Borovcanin here.

7 Q. And he's standing next to the man in the blue helmet. Is that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 [Videotape played]

11 MR. THAYER: We'll skip ahead to the last clip.

12 [Videotape played]

13 MR. THAYER:

14 Q. Sir, this clip which began at 2 hours, 56 minutes and has stopped

15 at 2 hours, 56 minutes, 25.4 seconds, can you identify what unit the

16 individual depicted in the far right of this image belonged?

17 A. Judging by the jump suit, he could be a member of the special

18 police brigade.

19 Q. Sir, just a couple of more questions before I conclude. Sir, did

20 you discipline -- Your Honour, if we may move into private session out of

21 an abundance of caution.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's do that.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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11 Page 8645 redacted. Private session

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1 [Open session]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Just one moment, because I need to make

3 a further annotation.

4 Yes, who's going first? I would imagine Mr. Stojanovic. Take as

5 much time as you require. At the same time, please try not to be

6 repetitive. Yeah, we can take the break now. I mean we've only got three

7 hours [sic] more for the break. We can take the break now. And then it

8 will be your turn. Three minutes. Because as you realise, time really

9 flies.

10 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.

13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just before we start

14 with the cross-examination, I'd like to inform you that I forwarded to the

15 registry the list of documents for identification awaiting translation.

16 They're now translated into English and they are available on e-court.

17 I've told the Prosecutor which documents they were. Thank you.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much for your efforts, Madam Fauveau.

19 And we can proceed.

20 Who is going first? I suppose Mr. Stojanovic for Borovcanin. Go

21 ahead.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to have

23 the first five questions answered in private session, please.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: We will do that. Let's go into private session,

25 please.

1 [Private session]

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

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25 (redacted)

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3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a document

9 entitled, "Report of the work of the Ministry of the Interior for 1995."

10 It is in the system, but unfortunately it has not been translated. We are

11 going to use one paragraph on page 4 of this report, and I would like to

12 see page 4, central section of page 4. And I believe that we will receive

13 a simultaneous interpretation of that sentence as we read it. So this is

14 page 2. Let us go to page 4. Thank you. This is it, yes. Thank you.

15 Q. Sir, let us take a look at the central section of this page, which

16 reads, "Team of instructors of the special police brigade conducted

17 training with 202 military conscripts at Jahorina over two months. In

18 July, the training centre Jahorina was established, where 235 military

19 conscripts are being trained from two generations that are doing their

20 military service in the MUP units."

21 Can you see that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can we then agree that this training centre, which is called

24 Jahorina, in terms of establishment, it was not part of the special police

25 brigade in July, but within the structure of the Ministry of the Interior

1 of Republika Srpska. Is that correct?

2 A. As far as I can tell you, it was part of the special police

3 brigade, and what is stated here is correct. And I was -- managed this

4 centre on behalf of the special police brigade.

5 Q. Did deserters, who were taken there in June 1995, belong to the

6 special brigade or were they just instructors who were conducting the

7 training?

8 A. Deserters were members of the training centre, and if the centre

9 belonged to the brigade, then it follows that the members belonged to the

10 brigade as well. And the instructors that conducted the training and the

11 courses were from the special police brigade.

12 Q. Am I right in saying that military conscripts were trained at

13 this training centre, so young soldiers who were not members of the

14 special police brigade?

15 A. Yes, there were two generations of young conscripts. At this

16 time there was this law in force. One group was around 30 to 40 strong,

17 and the other group of conscripts was larger and they were sent to do

18 their training at this centre.

19 Q. After having completed their training, the participants were then

20 deployed and sent to different military units. Is that correct?

21 A. As far as military conscripts were concerned, I do not know where

22 they were deployed. Later on, as far as participants at Kusici are

23 concerned, I do not know where they were deployed afterwards either, but

24 as far as the deserters' unit is concerned, I remember that it was

25 deployed in the special police brigades and deployed throughout the

1 territory of Republika of Srpska, at the time.

2 Q. Would you agree with me that these deserters, as you dubbed them,

3 started arriving at the centre from the 19th of June, 1995, onwards?

4 A. I do not know exactly when they started arriving, but I know that

5 they would spend a short time in training, maybe two, two and a half

6 months, maybe longer, maybe shorter period of time, but believe me, I do

7 not know the exact date.

8 Q. Did they arrive en masse or was this a process where they would

9 be coming in waves?

10 A. As far as I am concerned, I think it was a process, they did not

11 arrive en masse, but I cannot tell you how long this period of gathering

12 them at the centre lasted.

13 Q. These were not professional policemen, they do not have official

14 MUP ID, and they were not paid by the MUP. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. Now --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Yes, I want to make sure that -- in

18 other words he is saying that there were not professional policemen

19 because there are two questions. And they were not paid by the MUP.

20 Answer to both questions is yes, that they were not professional

21 policemen and that they were not paid by the MUP. You confirmed these

22 two propositions that have been put to you.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you wish me, I can explain. To

24 be a professional policeman, you first have to graduate from either a

25 course or a police academy. They had not attended such training. They

1 attended only the military part of their training, physical exercise and

2 the basic part of military training. But they did belong to the police.

3 I am not sure whether they had official MUP IDs. I think they did not.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Who paid them? From which ministry or organisation

5 were they paid from?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. Only the Ministry of

7 Interior could have paid them.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: That's why I put the question whether he had

9 answered yes to one or both.

10 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. If you permit me, let us clarify another thing. On Friday, when

13 discussing the structure of special police brigade, you said that there

14 was a mixed anti-armour and artillery division. Do you recall that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you agree with me that in the structure of the special

17 police brigade this organisational form that anti-armour and artillery

18 division, was established in October 1995?

19 A. I do not know when it was established, but it existed in the

20 structure, whether it existed in June 1995, I don't know, believe me, but

21 it is possible it was established later on.

22 Q. You said in -- during your examination-in-chief that on the 11th

23 of July you received an order to take a company from Jahorina and to go

24 towards Bratunac. Do you recall that?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Would you leave a possibility for that order to be received at the

2 centre through official channels?

3 A. Well, I cannot recall that, believe me. If I were to tell you

4 exactly, I couldn't, because I can't remember. The only way for it to

5 arrive would be through official channels, but I cannot recall how it

6 arrived.

7 Q. Later on we are going to take a look at that order, and we will be

8 able to confirm what you have just said.

9 Can you recall at which time were you -- you became familiar with

10 this order dated 10th of July, 1995?

11 A. I do not know when exactly, but I know that I met Mr. Borovcanin

12 and he relayed that order orally to me, but I cannot tell you exactly the

13 date or the time of day. I really cannot pin-point that for you.

14 Q. I understand you fully, but I tried to eliminate any ambiguity as

15 to whether it was on the 10th or the 11th of July, given that the date of

16 the order was the 10th of July?

17 A. When I was contacted and when I met Mr. Borovcanin, I know that I

18 was ordered to move my unit, and in my opinion that could have been on the

19 11th.

20 Q. We've had opportunity to hear one witness of the Prosecution who

21 described a person who had attended the course. The person who issued

22 this order and who addressed them as a man of -- middle-aged man of middle

23 height, he was the commander of all the special police units. Could you

24 tell us from this description who that was?

25 A. If he was commander of all special units, that would be Mr. Saric.

1 But I cannot recall whether somebody addressed the attendants or not. I

2 really cannot recall.

3 Q. Before departure, members of that company from the Jahorina

4 training centre were given uniforms, as you've said, automatic weapons,

5 and a certain number of blue flak jackets made in Israel. Is that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Let us take a look together at a photograph. At a photograph, I

9 believe that we've had the opportunity to see it. Your Honour, P01936.

10 P01936, page 61. ERN is 0364-7881.

11 Before we see it on the screen, sir, I'd like to refresh your

12 memory. At one point, when asked to recognise certain persons, you

13 described a member of, as you called them, the deserters.

14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know if you have been able to follow, but

16 there is a problem if we show the picture as it is, unfortunately, in the

17 system, it also has -- it also shows a name. So I'm trying to see, before

18 it is broadcast, whether we could have the technicians zoom in and

19 eliminate the name from the screen so that we can proceed without any

20 problems.

21 Yes, Mr. Thayer. Do you have a hard copy?

22 MR. THAYER: We have hard copies that we can obscure if Your

23 Honour's suggestion doesn't work out. So we have an alternative

24 available.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. But I think we have had this problem

1 before and it did work out. No, it cannot be done without the witness

2 seeing it, actually. Do you have a copy of it yourselves? It's not in

3 colour; it's in black and white. Is it okay with you? The name -- the

4 name doesn't show on that document, does it? Shall we put it on the ELMO.

5 That's clear enough.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your assistance.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Stojanovic,

8 go ahead.

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation].

10 Q. Sir, can you see the photograph? It is in black and white.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. A minute ago, you said or, rather, you had an opportunity, to see

13 this image as part of a video clip. Do you remember that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The individual marked with number 2 is one you described?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Would you agree that the flak jacket on this individual is, in

18 fact, the Israeli light blue flak jacket that were issued to these men

19 when they set off from Jahorina?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. So these flak jackets are not the flak jackets worn by members of

22 the Dutch battalion on that day?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. We can now remove the photograph from the ELMO. Thank you.

25 Your next meeting with Mr. Borovcanin, as you said on Friday, was

1 held on the 11th of July when you arrived in Bratunac. Is that correct?

2 A. As far as I can remember, that's correct.

3 Q. And that is why I want to put this question to you. Can you tell

4 us if it was on the 11th of July that you met, at what time did you meet

5 Mr. Borovcanin in Bratunac?

6 A. Well, as far as I know, by 1500 hours we had arrived in the

7 village where we found accommodation, so it must have been -- or it could

8 have been in the afternoon.

9 Q. Let's try and be a little more precise for the sake of the

10 following question. Was it immediately upon your arrival or a certain

11 time after you had arrived there and found accommodation?

12 A. Well, I think that we first arrived there, found accommodation,

13 and then I saw Mr. Borovcanin.

14 Q. If I said that in the afternoon of the 11th of July, 1995,

15 Ljubomir Borovcanin was at forward command post at Pribicevac, would you

16 be less certain that that meeting was yours was on the afternoon on the

17 11th?

18 A. I know that I had that meeting after we had found accommodation,

19 but as to when it was exactly, believe me, I can't be certain. I know we

20 arrived there, we found accommodation, and then we had a meeting with

21 him. But as for the precise time, I couldn't say.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

23 Mr. Thayer.

24 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I was just going to ask my learned

25 friend for a time reference for his question, given that he is seeking a

1 specific time. But the witness went ahead and answered the question.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

3 Go ahead, Mr. Stojanovic.

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know if I

5 should insist on the time, because I believe that the witness has told me

6 everything he can as far as the time is concerned, it was after 1500

7 hours.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you can move ahead with your next question.

9 That's what Mr. Thayer actually said.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Q. Then, sir, you went to reconnoitre the wide Potocari area; is

12 that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Would it refresh your memory if I told you that you were the cock

15 out of the hill at the time, the hill above the Yellow Bridge and the

16 observation post manned by UNPROFOR?

17 A. I don't know what the name of the hill was, but there was

18 certainly on some hill, at some elevation to the right, or rather to the

19 right of Bratunac when you come from Konjevic Polje, but I don't know

20 what the name was.

21 Q. We've been following the transcript, so let's just try to deal

22 with this once more. You said to the right of the road when you look

23 from Bratunac in the direction of Potocari.

24 A. The hill was somewhere on the route from Bratunac to Konjevic

25 Polje, so when you observe from the hill you have the Potocari base, and

1 Potocari. And you have the Yellow Bridge. I can't really say where it

2 was exactly, you know, but I was involved in carrying out reconnaissance

3 there, there's no doubt about that.

4 Q. And there's no doubt about the fact that you could see the UN

5 base from the hill, you could see the observation post, and the Yellow

6 Bridge. Is that correct?

7 A. Well, I could certainly see the UN base. I think I could also

8 see the Yellow Bridge, and so on and so forth.

9 Q. And then you received a new task: On the 12th of July you were

10 to provide security for the UN base. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. That meant to protect the property and the people in the base

13 from potential attacks. Is that how you understood your task?

14 A. Well, that is -- well, whether the task was described in that

15 way, I don't know, but that's how I understood it. That's how I

16 interpreted it. That's how I saw it. I didn't know what else I could do

17 with UNPROFOR members, and I wasn't going to capture them, keep them in

18 detention. That's how I understood my task, and that's how I approached

19 it.

20 Q. That is, in fact, what we will ask you about, and after you had

21 left the Yellow Bridge that morning on the 12th, you passed by the UN

22 observation post, if you remember. Isn't that correct?

23 A. Well, as far as I know, the UN observation post was in the

24 vicinity of the Yellow Bridge, or the Zuti Most.

25 Q. You passed by the observation post, and you did not linger there.

1 Is that correct?

2 A. Well, I can't remember whether we stopped there, but we passed by

3 that area. Perhaps we had contact with the men, perhaps we had some

4 discussions, but I can't remember the details.

5 Q. There was no fighting or no exchange of fire between you and the

6 members of the Dutch battalion at that post?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And you did not arrest a single UN member at that observation

9 post?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer.

11 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I just wanted to confirm, are we in open

12 session?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we are in open session.

14 MR. THAYER: I just wanted to confirm.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: We were in private session only for the first five

16 questions.

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the witness's

18 answer.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Witness, I think you need to repeat your answer.

20 And the question -- because the interpreters didn't catch it. The

21 question was, "And you did not arrest a single UN member at that

22 observation post?" And what was your answer to that question?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I did not answer the

24 question. It didn't even cross our minds. It didn't cross my mind to

25 arrest a member of the United Nations. I wouldn't even dream of doing

1 something like that.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Q. Upon arriving in Potocari, you didn't fight with members of the

5 Dutch battalion in the UN base either; is that correct?

6 A. As far as I am concerned, we didn't have conflicts of any kind.

7 The men I met were men with whom I was on very decent terms.

8 Q. Are you personally aware of any members of your unit who entered

9 the area of Potocari at the time? Are you aware of them arresting members

10 of the Dutch battalion or of disarming them?

11 A. No, I'm not aware of any such incidents.

12 Q. Sir, do you have any information, you personally, according to

13 which during that period Ljubomir Borovcanin acted wilfully in the Drina

14 Corps territory, regardless of the orders from his superiors?

15 A. Well, as far as I know, I don't believe that he acted wilfully.

16 Q. Thank you. I'd now like to deal with questions that concern the

17 police and the army. Could we have a look at P00725, please, a

18 Prosecution exhibit. Your Honours, this is a law or it's an application

19 of the law on defence in imminent threat of war during the state of war.

20 It was published in the Official Gazette of Republika Srpska 1 through

21 94. It was a special edition and I think we will often be using this

22 Official Gazette. If we could just have a look at it. Let's have a look

23 at page 2 of the Official Gazette, article 3 from the top in the B/C/S

24 version, and page 3, paragraph 2, in the English version of this law.

25 Could we have both versions side by side so that we can follow this, since

1 I will be dealing with these provisions.

2 Let's just focus on Article 2 or paragraph 2 of this law. In both

3 the B/C/S and in the English version. Article 2. Sir, let's have a look

4 at this. I will read it out and you can follow. Article 2. Article 2

5 states the following: "The armed forces of Republika Srpska shall be

6 composed of the army of Republika Srpska and MUP units from Republika

7 Srpska."

8 JUDGE KWON: I think we are looking at the wrong document.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so too.

10 Yes, Mr. Thayer, can you help us?

11 MR. THAYER: I think it's the next page of the English

12 translation, which ends in 0437 of the ERN.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I think

15 we now have the right English version before us. May I continue, Your

16 Honours?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead. Now we have the right document.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Sir, if we have a look at Article 2, Article 2 states the

20 following: "The armed forces of Republika Srpska shall consist of the

21 army of Republika Srpska and the units of the Ministry of the Interior of

22 Republika Srpska." Can you see that?

23 A. Yes, I can.

24 Q. Let's now have a look at Article 3 of the same law. Which states

25 the following: "The president of the republic is the commander in chief

1 of the armed forces. The commander in chief of the armed forces shall

2 establish the Supreme Command. The Supreme Command shall comprise the

3 following: The vice-president of the republic, the president of the

4 people's assembly of Republika Srpska, the prime minister of Republika

5 Srpska, the Minister of Defence and the Minister of the Interior."

6 Can you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, let's have a look at a chart. 4D92. We made this chart when

9 preparing for your cross-examination. We wanted to ask you whether it's a

10 correct reflection of the laws we have just read out, the laws on defence.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.

12 MR. THAYER: I'm just wondering if there is an English -- there it

13 is. Thank you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: There it is.

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we made an effort,

16 and at the bottom it is stated that this is our translation.

17 Q. Sir, have a look at the chart. The armed forces of Republika

18 Srpska consists of, as can be seen in this chart, of the army of Republika

19 Srpska, and MUP units from Republika Srpska. That's what we read out in

20 Article 2 of the law a minute ago. Can you see that?

21 A. Yes, I can.

22 Q. Does this chart tally with Article 2?

23 A. Yes, it does.

24 Q. Thank you. Article 3 stated that the Supreme Command of the armed

25 forces was the president of Republika Srpska, and he formed the Supreme

1 Command, and the Supreme Command consists of individuals or, rather,

2 positions listed in the third margin. Can you see that?

3 A. Yes, I can.

4 Q. Can we agree that this chart corresponds to the laws, Article 2

5 and 3, on defence when there is an imminent threat of war or state of war?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. Since we are speaking the same language, I am making

8 pauses to enable interpretation. So bear with me.

9 Given your police training and provisional experience and

10 expertise, let's -- I would like to ask you to help us in explaining the

11 functioning and the command over MUP units.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'd like to bring

13 back the exhibit P00725, but this time around, page 4. In the B/C/S

14 version, which discusses the law on the application of law on the

15 interior.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Stojanovic. Let's wait until we

17 get...

18 THE REGISTRAR: Which page in English, please?

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That would be page 12, paragraph

20 1 of the English version.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: It certainly doesn't correspond. It certainly

22 doesn't correspond. How can it be page 4 in the B/C/S and page 12 in the

23 English, if this is just a translation of a legal text?

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I see, okay. Yeah, but this is not the page anyway.

1 I mean it's definitely not the page.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Article 12 in the B/C/S version

4 that you see before you, let us scroll down, please. Excellent. Thank

5 you.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay. So the last article on page 4 of the

7 B/C/S version is the first article on page 12 of the English version.

8 This is just for the record.

9 Yes, go ahead, Mr. Stojanovic.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Q. Sir, let us focus on Article 12, if you can see it in the bottom

12 right corner, which reads: "Distinct from special-purpose police units,

13 Minister of the Interior shall establish special police units to carry out

14 combat tasks."

15 Can you see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You discussed that. You said that there were special units of

18 police and you said that there was a special brigade of the police. To

19 the best of your knowledge, this would be the state of affairs in July

20 1995?

21 A. As far as the law was concerned, yes.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if we can have

23 another digression, on page 47, row 15, there was a problem of

24 interpretation when we said "special units of police". It says in the

25 interpretation "special police units." I know that this is a very subtle

1 distinction, but this may prove vital.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I am -- I'm not following. I can't follow. If I

3 read page 47, lines 14 and 15, what we have is the following: "So let's

4 focus on Article 12, if you can see it in the bottom right corner which

5 reads 'distinct from special purpose police units, minister of the

6 interior shall establish special police units to carry out combat.'"

7 What's wrong with that?

8 Because even if I read the text on e-court, Article 12 is there

9 translated as, "Distinct from special-purpose police units, the minister

10 of the interior shall establish special police units to carry out combat

11 tasks." So obviously the two are not the same. But what I cannot

12 understand is where is the mistake in the -- in the transcript.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If you allow me, Your Honour, to

14 use my modest knowledge of English, we used this term. When we

15 say "special unit of police," we mean by that a special police brigade.

16 But for "special units of police," we use the English terms "separate."

17 So I would like to ask this terminology to be used from now on, and there

18 is no -- we both stipulate, the Prosecution and Defence about that.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me. This is a bit of a debate I have had

21 with CLSS for many years. They just don't want to use "separate". So I

22 thought we had talked about using the term "PJP" to term this special

23 purpose unit. I don't think you're going to get them to say "separate"

24 but if we stick with PJP, I think it will be clearer. Sorry to interrupt.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Would you agree to that, Mr. Stojanovic?

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Absolutely, Your Honour. We will

2 have to make some distinctions within the PJP. But we believe that

3 this --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: That's another matter. Okay. So we can go ahead.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Q. Now, let us take a look at Article 13 of this same act, on the

7 following page in the B/C/S version, and on the same page in the English

8 version.

9 Sir, take a look at paragraph 2 of Article 13, which reads, "The

10 minister of the interior shall give orders to police units through the

11 ministry police forces command staff."

12 A. I can see that.

13 Q. My question is whether you know in July 1995 there was a police

14 forces command staff of the Ministry of the Interior?

15 A. As far as I know, that command staff did exist at the level of the

16 Ministry of the Interior, police forces command staff.

17 Q. Thank you. Now I would like you to take a look at another chart,

18 that would be Exhibit 4D93. But we are going to go back to Article 14 of

19 this same law, so let us keep it close or nearby.

20 So, sir, now I'm going to show you a schematic or a chart, which

21 describes what we read about from the law. Thank you. Can you see that

22 the command structure and direction structure, pursuant to this law, goes

23 from the Supreme Command towards the minister, and then on through the

24 police forces staff, as specified here in Article 13. And then later on

25 towards the PJP and the special police brigade. Can you see that?

1 A. Yes, I can see that.

2 Q. Does this schematic correspond to your knowledge about the system

3 of command and the application of the law on internal affairs?

4 A. Yes, it does correspond.

5 Q. Thank you. Now I would like you to focus on the right-hand side

6 of the page, where we have the public security department in the box, and

7 then from public security department orders go to public security centres.

8 Can you see that?

9 A. Yes, I can see that.

10 Q. Is it known to you that in the system of command and direction in

11 1995, in July, that there was a command staff at the level of the public

12 security centre at Zvornik?

13 A. This is not known to me.

14 Q. Is it known to you that, within the public security department,

15 there was also a public police force staff to execute certain functions

16 within the system of command?

17 A. I think this is known to me, yes.

18 Q. So we can agree that this schematic corresponds to the legislative

19 solutions that we read about a couple of minutes ago?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you. Next what I'd like to ask you about is your knowledge

22 about the existence of more than one units of PJP from the centre of

23 Zvornik in this area. Is it known to you that there were some units of

24 PJP in July 1995?

25 A. Could you be more specific, please?

1 Q. All right. I'll try to rephrase my question. In July 1995,

2 during the period when you were there, in that area of Bratunac,

3 Srebrenica, Konjevic Polje, there were units of PJP that belonged to the

4 public security centre of Zvornik. Is that correct?

5 A. To my knowledge, yes.

6 Q. When observing this schematic, could you agree with me that the

7 PJP companies were commanded by the public security centre of Zvornik?

8 A. As per this schematic, yes.

9 Q. But you have no knowledge or cannot tell us anything about the

10 existence of a command staff at the level of the public security centre of

11 Zvornik?

12 A. That's right, and this is what I told you.

13 Q. Thank you. Then I will not ask you anything about that.

14 Now let us go back to the law on the application of the law on

15 internal affairs and that will be Exhibit P00725. And let us focus on

16 page 14.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Article 14, interpreter's correction.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Which are both on the same page

19 in the English and B/C/S version. Yes, this is the correct page of the

20 B/C/S version. And it is page 12, if I'm not very much mistaken, in the

21 English version, and we just saw it a couple of minutes ago. Thank you.

22 I believe this is as it should be.

23 Q. Sir, let us focus, Your Honour, on Article 14, paragraph 1 of this

24 law. Which reads -- sir, can you follow?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. "Police units assigned to combat operations by an order of the

2 commander in chief of the armed forces shall be resubordinated to the

3 commander of the unit in whose zone of responsibility they are performing

4 their combat tasks."

5 Can you see that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Would you agree with me that by application of Article 14,

8 paragraph 1 of this law on the application of law on internal affairs,

9 during the imminent threat of war or state of war, this combat unit in

10 question that was commanded by Ljubomir Borovcanin was assigned to combat

11 operations and that the same was resubordinated to the commander of the

12 Drina Corps, because that was the zone, the unit whose -- in whose zone of

13 responsibility you were performing the combat tasks? Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. To make matters clearer, Your Honour, I would like to

16 invoke Prosecution Exhibit P0094, and that, before we see it on e-court,

17 to tell that this was the staff commander's order of police forces, 64/95

18 from the 10th of July, 1995. I believe that we had occasion to see this

19 order, Your Honour. It has been translated into English. Thank you.

20 Sir, let us take a look at this order. You've been shown it

21 during your examination-in-chief. In the mid-section, take a look at how

22 it starts. "Based on the order of the Supreme Commander of the Republika

23 Srpska armed forces and in order to crush the enemy offensive from the

24 Srebrenica protected zone..."

25 Can you see that?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. "...I hereby order," and if you can take a look, it has been

3 signed by the commander of the police forces staff in the bottom left

4 corner. Can you see that?

5 A. Yes, I can.

6 Q. It is not signed. You cannot sign -- see the sign, but we can see

7 the name of the person who was supposed to sign it, and this is going to

8 be discussed later on during the proceedings. Can you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In the header of this document, in the upper right corner, it

11 says, "Very urgent ss." Can you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In dispatch traffic, if we can seek your assistance as to what

14 this marking meant.

15 A. Very urgent would be hiding behind this marking.

16 Q. Would that, in this specific case, mean that this order was very

17 urgent and sent to all participants specified below the date line, the

18 10th of July, 1995?

19 A. It should be so.

20 Q. In the seventh line it states that this order has been forwarded

21 to the Jahorina training camp. Can you see that?

22 A. Yes, I can.

23 Q. Does that confirm what we have already discussed, that this order,

24 as early as the 10th of July 1995, was to be forwarded to the training

25 camp in Jahorina, through official channels?

1 A. Yes, it should have been relayed through official channels to the

2 camp.

3 Q. Let's now read through item 2 of the order. It's already been

4 shown to you by the Prosecution. For sake of brevity I will just

5 concentrate on the last words under item 2, "As part of this unit a

6 company from the camp of the centre for training in Jahorina shall be

7 included."

8 Can you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Would you agree that according to this order only one company out

11 of two from the training centre in Jahorina was sent, on the basis of

12 this order, to the Srebrenica area and that one company, which became

13 part of this combat unit, had Ljubomir Borovcanin assigned to them as

14 their commander?

15 A. Well, that's the conclusion one can draw on the basis of the

16 order.

17 Q. Thank you. Let's have a look at item 5 now, which states the

18 following: "The unit commander, Ljubomir Borovcanin, upon arriving at

19 his destination, must establish contact with the corps Chief of Staff,

20 General Krstic."

21 How do you interpret this task? How do you interpret the order

22 that Ljubomir Borovcanin received?

23 A. Well, if I may put it in very simple terms, what I can say is

24 that Mr. Borovcanin had the task of commanding and leading MUP units, and

25 those MUP units, Ministry of the Interior units, were resubordinated

1 through him to the Chief of Staff of the Drina Corps, namely General

2 Krstic. That's how I could interpret it.

3 Q. Thank you. To conclude, in this case he would receive orders

4 from the Drina Corps command; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And then he would forward them through the system of command to

7 the chain of command to you and to subordinate units?

8 A. That's how it should have worked.

9 Q. We'll see how this functioned when examining documents a little

10 later on, but there's something else I'd like to clear up now.

11 Upon entering Potocari on the 12th of July, 1995, were you in the

12 vicinity of Mladic when he spoke -- you were close to Mladic when he

13 spoke to people from Srebrenica. And we saw this in the video clip

14 today. Do you remember that?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. Can we agree that that was on the 12th of July in the morning?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. On Friday you described and sketched the way in which your unit

19 moved from the Yellow Bridge to Potocari. Do you remember that?

20 A. Yes, the routes we followed.

21 Q. Do you remember that on that occasion from the left when we look

22 in the direction you were advancing in, there was shooting, at one point

23 in time, that didn't last for long?

24 A. As far as I can remember, on arriving I think we were near that

25 group of citizens, and to the left from the hill, as far as I can

1 remember, fire was opened on us, yes.

2 Q. Would you agree with us that the reason, for entering the UN base

3 that you discussed on Friday, was to check whether ABiH members were

4 present in the base?

5 A. Entering the UN base, the grounds of the base -- well, we entered

6 the base to see who was there, to see whether there were any ABiH

7 members. And it's certainly for those reasons that we entered the base.

8 We couldn't have entered or wouldn't have entered the base for any other

9 reasons. When we entered the base we saw a certain number of civilians,

10 there were wounded people, et cetera.

11 Q. When you saw that there were no ABiH members in the base, at

12 least armed ABiH members, you immediately left the base. Is that

13 correct?

14 A. We rapidly left the base. I don't think we spent more than a few

15 minutes there.

16 Q. Thank you. We've already heard one member of the Dutch battalion

17 testify about that, and corresponds to what you have said.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please

19 move into private session very briefly now.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, let's move into private session for a

21 short while, please.

22 [Private session]

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19 [Open session]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to have a look at a

22 video clip V0004458. It's Prosecution document P02047 to 1241, up until

23 2.13.08 is the relevant time. Let's have a look at it now and --

24 [Videotape played]

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we stop there, please, for

1 a minute.

2 Q. Do you know which military unit these soldiers belong to?

3 A. No.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Can we go back a little bit to where we

5 stopped? Because we need to put the reference. Okay. Stop. So we are

6 at 2 hours, 12 minutes, 45 seconds when the last question by

7 Mr. Stojanovic was put. Thank you. Let's go ahead now.

8 The question is to you, sir, "Do you know which military unit

9 these soldiers belonged to?" And we have in the transcript that you

10 answered "no." Do you confirm that?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, no, I don't know which unit

12 they belong to. Given their uniforms, some of these soldiers belong to

13 the deserters' unit from Jahorina. I wouldn't put that in dispute, but I

14 wouldn't know the others.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go ahead.

16 [Videotape played]

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Would this confirm your answer from a moment ago that there were

19 other units at Potocari on the 12th of July?

20 A. As far as I know, there was a huge flux of units, movement of

21 people in both directions. I could not register the units, groups,

22 individuals who came there. This is my impression of the goings on at the

23 time.

24 Q. Thank you. Can we continue and stop at 2.13.08.

25 [Videotape played]

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we stop here, please. Thank

2 you. So for identification purposes, this is 2.13.02.

3 Q. Sir, next to this bus, can you see two soldiers?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know which military unit they belonged?

6 A. They are members of the military police, but I don't know which

7 unit of the military police.

8 Q. So you are certain that these are not members of the unit that you

9 came to Potocari with; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 Q. Would this confirm your statement of a while ago that in Bratunac

12 or in Potocari, on the 12th of July, there were many units that were

13 deployed there?

14 A. I don't know which units were deployed there, but I am sure that

15 there were many units. I know that I was with a part of my unit at

16 Potocari. For the rest, I really don't know, believe me. There were many

17 units there, as I said.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, let us take a look at another segment of the same

19 video clip, 4458, which you were shown during your examination-in-chief.

20 It starts with 2.26.02 and ends 2.26.16, so it's a 14-second extract. And

21 could you follow the subtitles or the words and the image.

22 [Videotape played]

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. For reference

24 purposes, we end at 2.26.16.

25 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, we didn't receive audio for that clip

1 and I don't know if that was part of the presentation.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: That was one thing. At the same time, I was

3 watching you stand up. I thought for a moment that you were going to

4 refer to the last part in the transcript of Mr. Stojanovic's question and

5 could you follow the subtitles or the words and the image. We don't know,

6 as far as I know, I speak for myself, at least, I don't know if the

7 witness understands English or not. If he doesn't, how can he follow

8 the -- so let's put the two together. Go back to where we started from,

9 have the audio in place.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe for reference

11 purposes we received audio in B/C/S, in the language that we understand,

12 and I believe that the witness and everybody else following the

13 proceedings in B/C/S could understand and hear what the participants said.

14 But I'm not sure whether you received the interpretation. As far as

15 Mr. Thayer said, this appears to be so.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to go back to it, have it played again. And

17 I want to make sure that the witness is receiving the audio, also us. But

18 we can follow the captions.

19 [Videotape played]

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Sir, could you hear what the people in the video clip said?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You understand the language that they spoke?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. One of the people in the clip said to "Go around and see whether

1 they are going. This is their job." Did you hear this being said?

2 A. Yes, I did hear.

3 Q. Thank you. My question is, could you tell us here and now who was

4 he addressing with these words?

5 A. The -- he addressed the -- this lad who was part of the Jahorina

6 deserters' unit. This is what I presume, that he is addressing him.

7 Q. If he says, "It's their job," who is he addressing, this remark?

8 A. I don't know who he is addressing, presumably other members of the

9 unit.

10 Q. The gist of my question is this: I would like to find out what is

11 your knowledge about the role and the work of the Dutch battalion's tasks

12 in the job of evacuating people from the Potocari base on the 12th of

13 July?

14 A. To my knowledge, the Dutch battalion, together with our people,

15 was literally mixed with the civilians. They were securing the civilians,

16 together with our members, to prevent a stampede, if I may use this word,

17 when the buses arrived to evacuate the civilians. Don't take my word for

18 it, but I believe that we formed a human chain, holding hands together,

19 because when buses would arrive they would let a certain number of people

20 pass to fill the buses and trucks that were headed towards Bratunac and

21 further on.

22 So whether the Dutch battalion coordinated a part of these

23 efforts, well, yes, as far as I know. They were supposed to follow or

24 escort these columns of vehicles. I don't know whether the UNHCR was

25 supposed to escort them. Whether they escorted those columns in the

1 direction of Konjevic Polje, Bratunac, Vlasenica, Bjelici and I can't

2 remember the name of the town where they were heading for. I don't know

3 whether they escorted them or not. I don't know whether UNHCR people

4 escorted them or not. I know that they were there though, and that they

5 were coordinating many things. They were present at the scene at the

6 time.

7 Q. Can we agree that they were practically doing the same task as

8 your unit?

9 A. As far as this concerns, yes, I believe that they were doing the

10 same task as our units.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honours, I

12 believe that this would be the right time to take a break, if I'm not very

13 much mistaken.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: You are neither very much nor less mistaken. It is

15 time to take the break. So we will have a 25-minute break starting -- is

16 25 minutes enough since we have a redaction? Yes, okay.

17 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic. Go ahead.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Sir, we stopped while discussing the position and role of the

22 Dutch battalion. You said that they were supposed to escort the vehicles

23 transporting the civilians out of the base.

24 My next question is, do you know who secured the arrival of the

25 vehicles that transported the inhabitants?

1 A. I don't know who secured the arrival of those vehicles, but as far

2 as I know, police could not assign so many personnel to secure such a

3 large number of vehicles to evacuate the civilians, the -- I don't know

4 who secured those vehicles that came to evacuate the civilians.

5 Q. You will agree with me that it wasn't the police as just -- you

6 just said?

7 A. Yes, that's correct. It couldn't be the police.

8 Q. Could you tell us how long did you spend at Potocari, you

9 personally, on the day in question, on the 12th of July?

10 A. Except for my forays to the road, I believe that most of my time I

11 spent at Potocari.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on Friday in --

13 during examination-in-chief, the witness mentioned one name. We checked

14 and that was done in open session. I have no problem with that being done

15 in open session, but guide me because of the position of the witness.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know which name you are referring to.

17 Yes, Mr. Thayer.

18 MR. THAYER: I think I know the name, Mr. President, and if we

19 could go into private session, I may have inadvertently kept us in open

20 for that on Friday. Thank you.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session, please.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Sir, if you remember, could you tell us, on that date, on the 12th

15 of July, that you saw him in Potocari, did he wear a uniform or civilian

16 clothes? Do you remember that?

17 A. I can't remember that.

18 Q. Is it known to you that that person is married to a pharmacist

19 from Bratunac?

20 A. I -- this is not known to me.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I see that in the transcript it

22 says a pharmacist. My question was whether he knew that that person was

23 married to a doctor from Bratunac. Let us correct this in the transcript,

24 because this is going to be the subject matter of some other questions.

25 Q. Sir, this would not change anything in your answer if I were to

1 ask you whether you knew he was married to a doctor from Bratunac?

2 A. No, this is not known to me.

3 Q. Would you agree with me if I told you that he was married to a

4 woman from Bratunac, that he has a house in Bratunac, and that her

5 relatives then and now live in Bratunac?

6 A. I don't know that.

7 Q. Thank you. I will have no further questions concerning that.

8 Except for the incident that you mentioned on Friday concerning

9 one of the members of your unit, did you hear of any other murders or

10 mistreatment of civilians at Potocari?

11 A. No, sir, I have not.

12 Q. Did you inform Ljubomir Borovcanin of that incident or an attempt

13 to mistreat a civilian?

14 A. I cannot recall whether I did or not.

15 Q. As a superior officer, did you take any measures, discipline or

16 criminal measures against that member of your unit?

17 A. I know that later on he was expelled from the unit, but I don't

18 know the grounds for that.

19 Q. You told us that part of the unit that you called the deserters,

20 as early as on the 12th of July, was sent to secure the road?

21 A. Two platoons were sent to secure the communication, and as far as

22 I can recall, one platoon was -- stayed at Potocari.

23 Q. Can we agree that the -- that platoon was 30 strong?

24 A. According to establishment, that was supposed to be the -- the

25 number, but I'm not sure whether it was actually 30 strong or not.

1 Q. Do you recall when did those two platoons depart towards the

2 communication, Sandici, Lolici, Konjevic Polje, on the 12th of July?

3 A. I believe that that was -- how shall I put it? Between the

4 discussion of Mr. Borovcanin and General Mladic and after General Mladic

5 addressed the crowd, that their departure was after that. I cannot

6 pin-point the exact time, but during that period, between that what I said

7 and high noon.

8 Q. Do you know how they departed to that road that you mentioned?

9 A. I cannot recall.

10 Q. What is the distance from Potocari to that place?

11 A. I don't know the exact mileage. Maybe 10 to 15, 20 kilometres,

12 roughly.

13 Q. When did the remainder of the deserters' unit depart for that

14 road?

15 A. The 2nd Company that I subsequently learnt that it had arrived, I

16 don't know when they were sent to the road, but I do know that they joined

17 up along that road.

18 Q. Would you agree that this happened on the 13th, in the late

19 afternoon?

20 A. You mean those units departing for the -- that road?

21 Q. No, the remainder of the units.

22 A. I don't know that. I know that those units joined up along that

23 road or communication. I don't remember the exact date or exact time.

24 Q. Now I would like to ask you regardless of whether it was on the

25 12th or the 13th or whether the whole of the unit of the deserters went

1 or not. What was your specific task, what was the order that you were

2 issued with? What was your job along that road?

3 A. Our job, our task, was to secure that road for traffic, to

4 protect the villages lying beyond the communication, and Bratunac itself,

5 from possible attacks of the army of BiH. And that was our sole task

6 that is known to me.

7 Q. Was anything said to you on that occasion with regard to treating

8 POWs?

9 A. As far as I know, no.

10 Q. Could we now have a look at 4D78, please? And this is an order

11 from the VRS Main Staff dated the 11th of July, 1995. We could go

12 through the orders and the system of command and subordination in

13 relation to this task that related to the road. Unfortunately, we don't

14 have a translation of this document, at least I don't think so. Now I

15 have been told that we do. So there is an English version of this

16 document. Could we scroll down in the English version to the part where

17 MUP is referred to? You have to go to the next page in the English

18 version. Thank you. It's D, second paragraph in the English version.

19 Sir, have a look at the penultimate paragraph in the B/C/S

20 version, which states the following: "In consultation with the

21 responsible MUP organs in Vlasenica, Han Pijesak and Sokolac, use your

22 forces economically to secure control of the communications route and

23 prevent the passage of Muslims from and into the enclave and control of

24 territory in the depth."

25 Can you see that?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Does this reflect what you said a minute ago with regard to your

3 task?

4 A. In principle, yes.

5 Q. Thank you. Now, let's have a look at 4D79, a Defence Exhibit.

6 This is an order from Drina Corps command. The date is the same, Your

7 Honours, the 11th of July, 1995. It's the penultimate paragraph in the

8 B/C/S version, the MUP is referred to. It's the second page in the

9 English version. You can see the reference to the MUP, to MUP. Thank

10 you.

11 Sir, here again it states in the Drina Corps document dated the

12 11th of July, the following -- have a look at the last paragraph. "By

13 arrangement and cooperation with MUP organs in Vlasenica, Han Pijesak,

14 Sokolac and Zvornik, and by sensible deployment of forces ensure control

15 of roads, block the passage of Muslims from and into the enclave and take

16 control over the territory in depth in relation to the road."

17 Can you see that?

18 A. Yes, I can.

19 Q. Could we agree that, in fact, the Drina Corps command immediately

20 after having received an almost identical order from the Main Staff,

21 transformed this into an order that was forwarded to subordinate units?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Let's have a look at 4D81 now. Your Honours, while waiting for

24 it to come up on the screen, I can tell you that it is a Prosecution

25 document that we are provided with, it is a regular combat report from

1 the Drina Corps command dated the 13th of July, 1995. Could we have a

2 look at the third page in the B/C/S version, and the last page in the

3 English version. That's it. Thank you.

4 Sir, have a look at the part of the decision that we're

5 interested in, the Drina Corps decision in which states the

6 following: "Use part of your forces with the MUP forces to establish

7 control and ambushes on the routes withdrawal from Muslim groups. And

8 the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje-Milici-Vlasenica road and the

9 Zvornik-Sekovici, and Vlasenica road should be fully secured and should be

10 practicable around the clock, provide security for these roads with

11 patrols and by establishing ambushes at appropriate places for such

12 combat activities."

13 Can you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Would you agree with me that the stamp that we can see shows that

16 this order was processed on the 13th of July at 2010 hours. Can you see

17 that?

18 A. Yes. I can see the date, the 13th of July.

19 Q. Would you agree that you received such an order from

20 Mr. Borovcanin, an order that concerned your duties at the roads?

21 A. I received an order to secure the roads, and, yes, we could

22 assume it was like this one.

23 Q. And when you were present at the road, that agrees with what is

24 stated in this order by the Drina Corps commander?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Thank you. Can you remember whether the night between the 12th

2 and the 13th and the 13th and the 14th there were any members of the

3 deserters' unit at this road?

4 A. Do you mean at night? I can't remember.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just to correct

6 something my colleague has just drawn my attention to, the fact the

7 question was, whether between the night on the 12th and the 13th, he was

8 there, on the night between the 13th and the 14th, and it didn't concern

9 his unit, it concerned his presence, not the presence of the deserters'

10 unit. I would like to say that for the sake of the transcript.

11 Everything else is fine. Thank you.

12 Now let's have a look at 4D84. While waiting for that document,

13 I'd like to, again, repeat that this is a regular combat report, from the

14 Drina Corps, dated the 14th of July, 1995. And let's focus on the

15 decision, the last page both in the B/C/S and in the English version.

16 It's page 2 in the English version. It's the next page in the B/C/S

17 version too.

18 Q. Sir, this is a Drina Corps order, dated the 14th of July, 1995.

19 And in the decision of the 14th of July, have a look at the bottom. The

20 order was processed at 1945, at the end of that day, and it states that

21 the task was practically the same. "Use part of the forces together with

22 MUP forces to check the territory and the depth and to detect, block,

23 capture and disarm the routed Muslim forces. Protect the population and

24 property." Can you see that?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Is that the task you were assigned?

2 A. Yes, it was.

3 Q. Since we have this document before us now, I would also like to

4 ask you whether you know that there were members of the army engaged in

5 this task too because it says, "use part of the forces in cooperation with

6 MUP forces"?

7 A. Well, yes, as far as I know, that's the case, but as to where they

8 were located, which area, believe me, I don't know.

9 Q. Thank you, and let's now see 4D85 to conclude. While waiting for

10 it to appear on the screens, Your Honours, I would like to point out that

11 this is a regular combat report from the Drina Corps dated the 15th of

12 July, 1995. So it's on the following day, the day after the one that the

13 witness has been discussing. Let's have a look at the first page in the

14 B/C/S version, please. And it's the second page, paragraph 3, in the

15 English version. Thank you.

16 And this document states the following, sir. Have a look at the

17 third paragraph from the bottom in the B/C/S version. It states the

18 following: "Measures have been taken with the MUP and MUP special units

19 to increase security along these roads and to secure internal traffic for

20 the needs of our units."

21 Can you see that?

22 A. Yes, I can.

23 Q. This is an order dated the 15th of July or, rather, it is a

24 regular combat report dated the 15th of July. Let me correct myself.

25 Does it reflect what you were involved in when you established ambushes

1 and went on patrol, et cetera, during that period of time?

2 A. As far as I can remember, on the 15th, we were still securing the

3 road. There could have been ambushes at the road, et cetera. I believe

4 that we were providing security for the road though.

5 Q. And that security was provided through patrols that patrolled the

6 road?

7 A. Well, I don't know about the patrols, but I know these people were

8 by the road, and I think by the 16th the patrols started. At least as far

9 as we are concerned at the roads.

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that's today's

17 transcript, page 14, lines 16 and 17.

18 Q. Can you tell us what time it was on the 15th of July,

19 approximately?

20 A. Well, I think it was around the 15th of July, and I think it was

21 in the morning, as far as I can remember.

22 (redacted)

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18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. With some hindsight -- Mr. Thayer, yes.

19 MR. THAYER: Sorry to interrupt, Mr. President. I think the

20 parties can -- perhaps we can agree that there is a -- something missing

21 as far as I can see in the transcript. What's missing is the specific

22 reference as to who my learned friend was referring to being in the centre

23 for the public security at Zvornik from 9.00 and from 11.15 or 11.00 or

24 12.00 the same day. I believe I know who he is talking about, I just

25 don't see it in the transcript and it's not reflected in the answer as

1 well. So we can clarify that, I think it may be worth taking up again.

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11 Yes, Mr. Thayer.

12 MR. THAYER: I agree with you, Mr. President. I appreciate the

13 intervention. That's absolutely correct.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Stojanovic, you can proceed. In the meantime,

15 Madam Usher is going to go through the transcript and see which parts --

16 at least I can remember two parts where we need to redact this.

17 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Let's conclude this part of my questioning. Do you accept the

20 possibility that this took place on the 14th of July in the morning?

21 A. I accept the possibility that this may have happened on another

22 date.

23 Q. Thank you. This concludes this part of my questioning.

24 Now, let us go to Exhibit 4D87. And before we have it on the

25 screen in the e-court, Your Honours, I would like to say this: It goes

1 for a memo or a letter of the deputy --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you proceed with this new point, Mr. Thayer's

3 intervention called for a clarification, which you haven't addressed. If

4 I can refer you to page 76, line 9 to line 20, to line 3 on page 77.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] All right, Your Honours. I will

6 try to clarify this matter through my question.

7 Q. Sir, when recently I asked you whether it was possible, and the

8 name was missing in the transcript, my question was, is it possible that

9 Ljubomir Borovcanin, on the date in question, on the 15th, pursuant to

10 witness statements that we have here, that he, from 9.00 in the morning

11 attended a meeting at the public security centre in Zvornik and from 11.00

12 onwards at the Zvornik Brigade. Is that possible?

13 A. Yes, that is possible. That is possible.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Is this sufficient, Your Honour?

15 Then I would continue with my line of questioning.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Q. In the meantime, we have this document on the screen. Now I would

19 like to ask you to take a look at this document. It is a query by the

20 rear organ of the Drina Corps, specifying that in the territory of

21 Srebrenica and Bratunac, a MUP unit is deployed and that the matter of

22 feeding them is a contentious issue that should been regulated. And the

23 question or the query is, who is in charge of supplying them with food,

24 these members of MUP, while they are in the area of responsibility of the

25 Drina Corps. Can you see that?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Let us go back to Article 14 of the law on the application of the

3 internal affairs law. That is Exhibit -- the exhibit that we used,

4 P00725. So P00725. Article 14, paragraph 4 on the law on the application

5 of the interim affairs of law in periods of immediate threat of war or

6 state of war. Article 14 is on the next page. Thank you. This is fine.

7 So the penultimate and the last paragraph is what we're interested

8 in. Sir, take a look at paragraph 4 of Article 14, which reads, "In the

9 zone in which they are carrying out combat operations, the commander to

10 whom a police unit has been resubordinated shall provide logistic support

11 for the police unit in the same way as to the other units of the army of

12 Republika Srpska."

13 Can you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Those days, in terms of logistics, were you supplied through the

16 Drina Corps logistics units?

17 A. I don't know who supplied us. Believe me, I know that we were

18 billeted at a school building. I cannot recall whom we received food

19 from. It would be only logical to be supplied or given all the supplies

20 that we needed from them in terms of food, fuel, et cetera.

21 Q. Now I'd like you to focus on paragraph 3 of Article 14, which

22 reads: "Police units resubordinated to the army of RS in a certain zone

23 shall be used only for combat operations established in advance by the

24 commander in chief or the ministry of -- Minister of the Interior."

25 Can you see that paragraph?

1 A. Yes, I can see that.

2 Q. Is it known to you personally, having it in mind the order dated

3 10th of July, 1995, whereby you were given this combat task, whether it

4 was determined how the army may use you?

5 A. As far as I am concerned, and as I know, yes.

6 Q. What were your uses, if this is known to you?

7 A. We could be used to perform tasks through Mr. Borovcanin, to be

8 given a task from him at the level of Drina Corps, and to carry out such

9 specified tasks.

10 Q. So Mr. Borovcanin would be the person relaying that order into the

11 MUP line of command from the military?

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. Thank you. Let me conclude. Is it known to you that at that time

14 in July 1995, and within the scope of that combat task, whether all

15 platoon leaders in the so-called deserters' unit, were they professionals

16 or were some platoon leaders appointed from the ranks of the so-called

17 deserters?

18 A. As far as I know, they were appointed from the ranks of the

19 deserters and platoon leaders were chosen from the ranks of the

20 instructors. That's as far as I know.

21 Q. So the platoon leaders were also chosen from the ranks of the

22 deserters?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. Thank you. Finally, let us discuss the activities of your unit

25 during the search of the terrain, and this is a new subject, Your Honour,

1 and we have some documents to scrutinise, and maybe this would be the

2 right time to adjourn for the day.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. That's what we are going to do.

4 We will adjourn, continue tomorrow at 9.00. Sorry, at 2.15 in the

5 afternoon. I wish we would transfer to the morning. Have a nice

6 afternoon.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

8 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day of March,

9 2007, at 2.15 p.m.

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