Page 28903
1 Thursday, 27 November 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, good morning. Madam Registrar, could you call
7 the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you, ma'am. Call the accused are
11 present today. Prosecution it's Mr. McCloskey only. Amongst the Defence
12 teams I notice the absence of Mr. Ostojic, Mr. Bourgon, and Mr. Haynes.
13 Good morning to you, Mr. Miljanovic.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome back. Ms. Fauveau is going to proceed with
16 her examination-in-chief.
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
18 WITNESS: RATKO MILJANOVIC [Resumed]
19 [Witness answered through interpretation]
20 Examination by Ms. Fauveau: [Continued]
21 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, what was your rank in 1995?
22 A. I was a colonel, Your Honours.
23 Q. Could you tell us what was the material situation in the army of
24 the Republika Srpska when you joined it in 1993?
25 A. Your Honours, I can only answer about material and logistics, if
Page 28904
1 that is actually what is being asked of me.
2 Q. Yes, indeed that is the question.
3 A. Thank you very much. Materiel and medical situation in the army
4 of Republika Srpska back in 1993 when I started to familiarise myself
5 with the situation, was disorganised, chaotic, exceedingly complex and I
6 would say entirely disordered.
7 Q. When you are talking about the chaotic situation, what exactly do
8 you mean by this term "chaotic"?
9 A. What I mean is that the logistics support system was not
10 operating at the required level. The system failed to control the
11 movement of goods and equipment into the army or out of the army. It was
12 impossible to monitor expenditures, and there was no way to reconcile the
13 irreconcilable; namely, the large scale discrepancy between the needs of
14 a war situation on the one hand and the requirements of the men in a
15 situation like that. On the other hand, we had the meager possibilities
16 offered by what was at the time a very modest state, Republika Srpska.
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
18 continues] ...
19 situation in the Bratunac area dated 23rd of April 1993.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment. Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just, as that's coming up, I'm getting
22 significant feedback in my microphone, if the audio guys could -- it's
23 just between questions, it's very strange, but it's a problem.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Could the technicians please do
25 something about it.
Page 28905
1 THE REGISTRAR: Could the Counsel please repeat the exhibit
2 number.
3 MS. FAUVEAU: [In English] 5D1022. [Interpretation] Could we
4 show the witness a little bit lower down on the screen, and on English
5 it's the first paragraph on page 2.
6 Q. Sir, do you see the paragraph where we can read:
7 "[In English] The logistics support unit of the Bratunac Brigade
8 and other units is increasing critical. There is a fuel shortage and in
9 spite of all the efforts, there is big shortage of all the ammunition and
10 food."
11 [Interpretation] In 1993, were reports of this type usual,
12 customary?
13 A. Yes, Your Honours. Reports with a similar character were quite
14 usual.
15 Q. And what was the situation in 1995?
16 A. The situation in 1995 changed to some extent, especially in terms
17 of the stability of the functioning of the logistics support system. It
18 was functioning a lot better now, and the procedures took a shorter time
19 to complete.
20 Nevertheless, the supply reserves had already been used up to far
21 greater extent as compared to 1993, and supplies were even more difficult
22 to come by than in 1993. There was nothing really significant in terms
23 of urgency or anything critical, the system was running a little more
24 smoothly.
25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I'd now like to show you the report
Page 28906
1 of the Drina Corps, the first is 5D1051. This is the report of the 16th
2 of February, 1995. This is on page 2 both in B/C/S and in English, and
3 it's point 6 that I'm referring to.
4 Q. Here we can see that there is a shortage of food, munitions,
5 fuel, and medicines. Were such reports customary in 1995 as well?
6 A. Indeed, Your Honours. This was a report that was in no way
7 unusual in terms of logistics support.
8 Q. I'd now like to show you the report dated 21st of February, in
9 other words, five days later.
10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] This is 5D1052. In English it is
11 page 2 point 6 and in B/C/S it's point 6, which is lower down on that
12 page.
13 Q. Here again we can see that there is a shortage of certain items,
14 food --
15 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know whether I
16 should continue because I think that the Prosecutor still has problems.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't have these problems.
18 MR. SARAPA: I have the same problem.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: You have the same problem.
20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Apparently the Defence is suffering
21 from the same problem as well.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: And you, too?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have some background noise, too.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: There is a slight humming tone, but it's not
25 disturbing me, but anyway, we need to do something about it. Usually, if
Page 28907
1 one turns -- this one.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have no problem going on, it's just annoying
3 and --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I know it's -- I can imagine, because I've had it
5 in the past. So it's annoying, definitely, but let's proceed,
6 Ms. Fauveau.
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
9 corps, still talking about the shortage of certain food items. I'd like
10 to know whether the army of the Republika Srpska and its Main Staff were
11 in a position whereby they could solve this problem?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's leading and somewhat vague. Does she mean
14 by "you" the Main Staff, or has this witness actually reviewed this
15 report? If we could just clear that up, then I won't have a problem.
16 It's just not clear if he's reviewed this report himself or if this is
17 something else.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Fauveau.
19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I think that I said on page 3, line
20 23, that it was the report of the Drina Corps.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: My objection is -- well, two, it was leading
23 because she said "he reviewed it," but it's more foundational, does he
24 normally get reports like this from the Drina Corps and review them, and
25 has he reviewed this one himself at the time of the events? I think it
Page 28908
1 has a lot more substance that way if we get a little foundation
2 without ...
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Fauveau.
4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I can repeat what we were talking
5 about yesterday at the end of the session.
6 Q. Did you receive reports from the corps?
7 A. Yes, Your Honours. Such reports would arrive at the rear command
8 post of the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska, but not ones like
9 these. Broader, reports, proper logistics reports, I have never received
10 a report like this one.
11 Q. As to the contents of this part, dealing with logistical support,
12 in other words this report, does that corps respond to the broader
13 reports that you used to receive at the time from the Drina Corps?
14 A. Yes, Your Honours, if we look at item 6, it is a summary and a
15 conclusion of the logistics report that the logistics organ of the Drina
16 Corps would submit to their superior who was the assistant commander for
17 logistics of the Main Staff of the army Republika Srpska.
18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Before we come back to the question
19 that I put to you earlier, I would again like to show you another report
20 which is 5D1062.
21 This is another report from the Drina Corps dated the 5th of
22 April, 1995. In English, we're referring to page 2, and in B/C/S I'd
23 like you to scroll down to point 6, which is the final paragraph in the
24 B/C/S version.
25 Q. So in April 1995, the Drina Corps reports on the shortage of
Page 28909
1 certain food items. I'd like to know whether the army of the Republika
2 Srpska was trying to solve such requests from the logistics sector of the
3 Main Staff? I'd like to know whether the logistics unit of the Main
4 Staff of the army Republika Srpska tried to solve these requests, to
5 satisfy these requests, from the Drina Corps?
6 A. Your Honours, these requests were always considered. Whenever
7 possible, one took action. If not, they weren't ignored, but they
8 couldn't be dealt with so the situation would continue until such time
9 that it could be resolved.
10 Q. The reports that we've just seen came from the Drina Corps, what
11 was the situation in the other army corps?
12 A. Your Honours, logistics reports from all units of the army
13 Republika Srpska looked very much alike. The substance was the same
14 throughout as we have seen in these three reports that we have just
15 reviewed.
16 Q. Who was in charge of supplying materiel goods; in other words,
17 equipment, munitions, food stuffs, fool, who was responsible for the
18 supplies to the army?
19 A. In the army of Republika Srpska the body in charge was the
20 government of the Republika Srpska.
21 Q. And how did the government know what the army of the Republika
22 Srpska's needs were?
23 A. The Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska would inform the
24 government on its needs in terms of supplies, in terms of weapons and
25 ammunition. Certain requests were forwarded to that effect.
Page 28910
1 Q. And who, from the Main Staff, was in charge of informing the
2 government?
3 A. Assistant commander of the Main Staff of the army Republika
4 Srpska for logistics, General Djukic.
5 Q. Do you know how often such requests were sent to the government?
6 A. I don't think it would be a good idea for me to speculate on
7 this. General Djukic often went to the government. I don't know how
8 often he sent such requests, but based on my knowledge and all of the
9 other organs who took part in preparing such requests, it would be ones
10 at the end of the year in relation to the army's needs for the following
11 year and perhaps another time during the year.
12 Q. You said that General Djukic often went to the government, did
13 you attend any of the government sessions?
14 A. Yes, Your Honours. Whenever General Djukic was not able to make
15 it there, and issues were discussed that had to do with the army's
16 materiel and medical situation, I would then attend.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could both the witness's
18 microphones be switched on, please. Thank you.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.
20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Do you know whether
21 General Miletic --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you switch on the other microphone as well,
23 please.
24 All right. Thank you. Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can perhaps you could clarify what you mean by
Page 28911
1 "sessions." Is this Assembly sessions or some meetings or what because
2 that's not clear.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I suggest that you even repeat the whole question,
4 because only part of it appears in the transcript.
5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I don't know which question the
6 Prosecutor is referring to.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I think now looking at it, he is probably referring
8 to the previous one which said -- you said that:
9 "General Djukic often went to the government, did you attend any
10 of the government sessions?"
11 He wants a clarification as to which sessions you are referring
12 to.
13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I think the government is made up
14 of an Assembly, and other than that government and Assembly, I don't know
15 what further clarification I can add.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But it's clear now --
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] That's not what I said. I said I
18 was saying that these were government sessions, if I meant Assembly
19 sessions I would have said "Assembly sessions."
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I see. It's different.
21 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have no idea what government session means, and
23 I don't know if the witness does. And maybe it's a translation, but
24 "sessions" can mean anything.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: But I stand with you, here, because to me, for
Page 28912
1 example, government sessions is incomprehensible. I don't know what you
2 would be referring to.
3 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in French, government
4 session is a common term. English is neither my mother tongue nor my
5 second language. I do not know how this should be translated. "Sjednica
6 vlade" means government session; in French, "session du gouvernement."
7 And it is a current term in French. I don't know how better to explain
8 this.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Josse.
10 MR. JOSSE: To be fair to my learned friend, that term was
11 commonly used in the Krajisnik case, "government sessions," in English.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: But I wasn't in the Krajisnik case, so I still need
13 some kind of explanation what is meant by "government session," whether
14 it's -- yes, Mr. Josse.
15 MR. JOSSE: I loathe to give evidence, but the body led by the
16 prime minister, as I understand it, as opposed to the presidency
17 sessions, they are different, government sessions. So as I said it was
18 the body led by the prime minister which consisted of the various members
19 of the government.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you mean to say prime ministerial cabinet.
21 MR. JOSSE: Yes.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Then I understand it. Cabinet of
23 ministers, basically. All right.
24 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I shall repeat the question.
25 Cabinet of ministers doesn't mean much in French.
Page 28913
1 Q. Did you attend government sessions or sessions of the cabinet of
2 ministers?
3 A. Yes, Your Honours I did attend sessions chaired by the prime
4 minister and in which certain government ministers took part.
5 Q. Do you know whether General Miletic attended such sessions of the
6 cabinet of ministers or government sessions?
7 A. Your Honours, I don't know that General Miletic attended a
8 government session once.
9 Q. Aside from supplies from the government, did the army of
10 Republika Srpska have any other source of supply?
11 A. Yes, the army of Republika Srpska used the reserve left from the
12 former Yugoslav Peoples' Army. Depending on the kind of materiel or
13 equipment it also received help from abroad or from outside from the
14 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
15 Q. When you say that it received help from abroad or from outside
16 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, what type of help -- or, rather, how
17 did this help reach the army?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry. That's an important, probably
20 mistranslation. I'm sorry to interrupt, but I'm not -- or it's not what
21 he said. She said: "Did he receive help outs the FRY?" He said he got
22 help from the FRY.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
24 MS. FAUVEAU: [No interpretation]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Then please proceed.
Page 28914
1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
2 Q. When you received help from abroad and from the republic of
3 Yugoslavia
4 Republika Srpska?
5 A. Your Honours, I am going to answer this question the way I
6 understood it. It was called "assistance," and it arrived in various
7 ways. I can refer to some of them. Various individuals who were called
8 upon or not called upon from municipalities, enterprises both from in the
9 army or from outside of the army in this wartime nightmare, felt called
10 upon to secure something from somewhere. This is one of the questions
11 that actually contributed to the chaos that I mentioned in responding to
12 the question of materiel and health supplies in 1992 and 1993.
13 This kind of "assistance," I put that in quotes, is something
14 that I am well familiar with.
15 Q. In certain situations, could the army of the Republika Srpska
16 purchase certain goods directly, certain materiel goods and equipment?
17 A. Your Honours, at the time when I came to the army of Republika
18 Srpska, the army did not have a budget and -- or financial means to
19 procure the articles it required in the way that I was aware that the JNA
20 was able to do.
21 Q. Did the army of Republika Srpska obtain any assistance, any
22 materiel assistance, from the UNPROFOR?
23 A. Your Honours, I remember some situations when the army received
24 assistance from UNPROFOR.
25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I'd like to show you 5D843.
Page 28915
1 Q. And before it arrives, I would like to know whether you could
2 tell us which situation you are referring to?
3 A. My information comes from conversations of General Djukic that he
4 had with us at some meetings that -- or the chiefs of services when he
5 addressed them. When we were asked to state our requirements in fuels
6 and for the purposes of compensation for the use of roads and for the
7 service of repairs of those roads.
8 Q. Can you tell us whether this document is referring to precisely
9 the thing that you have just referred to?
10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we enlarge the B/C/S version,
11 please.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this evidently covers the same
13 questions.
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Do you know whether certain UNPROFOR units obtained supplies in
16 the Republika Srpska?
17 A. Whether they obtained supplies, no, I don't recall that they did.
18 No, or can you please clarify for me? I didn't quite understand. What
19 sort of supplies?
20 Q. Did you know the president of the municipality of Bratunac
21 A. No.
22 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I'd like to show you 5D1324,
23 because I believe that this will refresh your memory.
24 Q. Do you see the start of this document, we can read:
25 "[In English] On August 6th, the president of the Bratunac
Page 28916
1 municipality and Colonel Miljanovic discussed the supplying of the Dutch
2 battalion by companies from Bratunac."
3 [Interpretation] Do you recall this?
4 A. Yes, there was such a talk but I really cannot definitely say
5 that the Mayor of the Bratunac -- or the president of the Bratunac
6 municipality was involved.
7 Q. Do you know whether the Dutch Brigade --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Dutch Battalion, interpreter's correction.
9 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
10 Q. -- received provisions from Bratunac?
11 A. Yes, did I read that there was an initiative like that, but I
12 don't know where it came from. And I was informed about it, obviously,
13 at this encounter which was just by coincidence. I don't know how it
14 came about that the president of the Bratunac municipality encountered
15 me. And the interpretation I put here is that -- I mean, it was
16 evidently a logical one because the problem was that the army of
17 Republika Srpska didn't have any right to trade, so the procedure that
18 was previously agreed was not something that was harmonized with the
19 government laws. They were not paying some sort of tax or something, so
20 I pointed this out to the president or the person whoever it was that I
21 spoke to, and that if this regulation is adhered to, then there should be
22 no problems. I think that after that, this was resolved, but I think
23 this is the way it happened as far as I can recall.
24 Q. Was it customary that the Main Staff officers had contacts with
25 the local civilian authorities?
Page 28917
1 A. Your Honours, this was not forbidden. I mean, quite the
2 contrary, I had contacts of that nature. I don't know how much others
3 maintained such contacts.
4 Q. Fine. I would like to move on to another subject now. Can you
5 tell us who decided which army corps received a quantity of fuel, who
6 decided on the quantity of fuel that was to be allocated to a given army
7 corps?
8 A. Your Honours, the commander of the Main Staff made these
9 decisions.
10 Q. And what was the role of the logistics unit as regards this
11 decision taking?
12 A. Your Honours, the commander could ask for the opinion or
13 recommendations of the rear command chief, but then he would act pursuant
14 to his own decision no matter what sort of proposals he heard.
15 Q. Did the logistics unit have a role to play when the commander
16 decided on the quantity to be allocated to individual army corps or units
17 once a decision had been taken?
18 A. No, Your Honours.
19 Q. And who distributed this fuel? So materially, technically, who
20 distributed the fuel to the different corps?
21 A. Your Honours, I already said this, but I mean it was the
22 commander who allocated this. But if you allow me, I would like to
23 explain the main procedure, briefly, how this was done.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you interested in this, Ms. Fauveau, or not?
25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think there was a --
Page 28918
1 an interpretation problem.
2 Q. When the commander decides that in certain -- that certain corps
3 will obtain a certain amount of fuel, who is responsible for the actual
4 distribution of that fuel to those corps?
5 A. The fuel that was obtained from somewhere and came to the army of
6 Republika Srpska, and the commander would, let's say, write on a document
7 1st Krajina corps this much and that corps that much and that corps that
8 much and so on and so forth.
9 Most frequently, he would then write, The rest should be housed
10 at the bases. And that's what would come to the logistics assistant. He
11 would then look at that and he used to be -- I mean, it was
12 General Djukic, he used to take the quantity allocated for the bases,
13 would distribute different quantities that would go to the different
14 bases. And most often the clerk from the technical service was entrusted
15 with fuel distribution, he would receive this list. And then that organ
16 would then be in charge of executing this to the letter.
17 This is the procedure.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note that the witness referred to
19 a number of bases where the fuel would be distributed, but it was too
20 fast to be translated.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we have that problem to deal with, and
22 you're objection? Or --
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just a foundational, perhaps, there has been no
24 mention of the bases, and I think that would help clarify some of this.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And in addition, Mr. Miljanovic, the
Page 28919
1 interpreters had problem catching up with the speed with which you are
2 testifying. You mentioned a number of bases where the fuel would be
3 distributed, different bases.
4 The interpreters believe that they did not translate everything
5 that you said. Let me read out to you what we have in the transcript,
6 and then, perhaps, if there is something missing you can fill it in.
7 You said:
8 "He would then look at that and he used to be -- I mean, it was
9 General Djukic, he used to take the quantity allocated for the bases,
10 would distribute different quantities that would go to different bases.
11 And most often, the clerk from the technical service, was entrusted with
12 fuel distribution. He would receive -- I think most often the clerk from
13 the technical service who was entrusted with fuel distribution would
14 receive this list. And then that organ would then be in charge of
15 executing this to the letter."
16 Is there anything else that you said that I didn't mention?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, when I listen to what
18 I said, it does not reflect absolutely what I expressed.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Then, please, could you clarify and go,
20 again, through this answer and your reply and make us understand better.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Gladly, very gladly, Your Honour.
22 When General Djukic received the act of a specific content,
23 whereby he's being informed that for the requirements of the army of
24 Republika Srpska, the government secured a certain quantity of fuel.
25 Then, on the document, the commander of the Main Staff would write in his
Page 28920
1 hand, To the 1st Krajina Corps, this quantity of fuel; the 2nd Krajina
2 Corps, such and such a quantity; the Drina Corps would receive a certain
3 quantity; and so on until he covered all the corps. And then, there
4 would be a remark underneath, The remaining quantity to be distributed in
5 the logistics bases.
6 General Djukic would then add, in his hand, 14th rear base, a
7 specific quantity, the 35th logistics base, also he would note down a
8 quantity, the 27th logistics base, such and such a quantity, the 30th
9 logistics base, such and such a quantity, and then he would initial that.
10 Then he would call, most often, the clerk of the technical
11 service in charge of fuel from the technical sector, the person is --
12 would be from the technical sector, he would hand over the document to
13 this person and order him to execute it to the letter.
14 That person would then proceed according to the procedure. Your
15 Honours, do I need to continue?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: No, I'm even doubting in my mind whether we need
17 all this detail. I don't know, I don't want to make decisions for you,
18 Ms. Fauveau, but I think too much detail. If you steer the witness to
19 where you want him to go and make him understand that a clean answer,
20 short and sweet, is better. I think we will proceed much faster.
21 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Which base supplied the Drina Corps?
23 A. The Drina Corps received its supplies from the 27th logistics
24 base of the army of Republika Srpska and the 35th [Realtime transcript
25 read in error, "25th"] logistics base of the army of Republika Srpska.
Page 28921
1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] On page 18, line 18, it is the 35th
2 logistics base.
3 Q. Did these two bases only supply the Drina Corps or did they
4 provide supplies to other corps?
5 A. They also supplied other corps.
6 Q. Which corps received supplies from the 35th base?
7 A. The 35th logistics base supplied the East Bosnia Corps as well.
8 Q. And the 35th logistics base was located where?
9 A. Your Honours, if I were to give a short answer, the question
10 would need to be formulated differently. The base command was in
11 Bijeljina. The base had a certain territory, and this is according to
12 the territorial organisation of the army, and on that territory it was --
13 its duty to supply logistically the units in that territory.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Does that answer your question, Ms. Fauveau, or
15 not?
16 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I was interested in knowing about
19 the headquarters of the base.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Foundational, these bases, who are they
22 subordinated to? That's the first time they have been discussed.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, could you explore that with the witness.
24 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but the witness
25 spoke about this yesterday. I can go through all of his testimony from
Page 28922
1 yesterday again, but the witness has already answered that question. I
2 can put it again.
3 Q. To whom were these bases subordinated?
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, but look at the record, that's not correct.
6 There was a brief reference to base, and he never explained what
7 logistics bases were, who they were subordinated to, none of that. It's
8 just not there, unless I was gone.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's not waste time. He's going to answer it now.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, logistics bases of
11 the army of the Republika Srpska, the 14th, the 35th, the 27th, and the
12 30th, those were directly subordinated to the assistant commander of the
13 Main Staff of the army Republika Srpska for logistics, General Djukic.
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
15 Q. As the 35th base provided supplies to the Drina Corps and to the
16 Eastern Bosnia Corps, how did the 35th base know which amount of fuel,
17 stored there, was to go to the Drina Corps and which amount was to go to
18 the Eastern Bosnia Corps?
19 A. I'll answer this question in the following way, Your Honours:
20 The fuel reserves of the Drina Corps were kept in warehouses where the
21 reserves of the army of Republika Srpska were kept, too, in the
22 warehouses within the military bases in separate facilities. And when I
23 say "facilities ," I mean buildings; and when I say "warehouses," I mean
24 a building with a number of such facilities. And there was no mingling
25 there, we knew exactly what the corps reserves were and what the reserves
Page 28923
1 were that belonged to a base. That is if I understood your question
2 correctly.
3 Q. And what was the situation with munitions? The munitions that
4 were stored at the 35th base?
5 A. Your Honours, the situation with ammunition, in that regard, was
6 the same. Just to keep me from explaining --
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
8 continues] ...
9 Q. Sir, you see which unit received the munition indicated on this
10 document, and it's military post 7042, Bratunac. And if we go down to
11 the bottom of the page -- I'll repeat the question. It seems there was
12 no interpretation.
13 So I'm sorry, can we go back up to the top of the page, please.
14 The unit -- that was the receiving unit we see from this document, in
15 other words, that received the munitions indicated on this document, is
16 military post 7042 Bratunac.
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] And if we could now scroll down.
18 Q. Here we can see that these resources went directly from the 35th
19 base. Have you seen this?
20 A. Yes, I see the document.
21 Q. And on the left-hand side we can see that there was approval
22 given by a certain Basovic, do you know who Basovic is?
23 A. Yes, Major Basovic was a clerk, was someone working with the
24 technical service that was attached to the command of the Drina Corps.
25 Q. Could the 35th base send these munitions to the Bratunac Brigade
Page 28924
1 with the approval of the officer of the Drina Corps, or did it need a
2 further approval from the Main Staff?
3 A. Your Honours, this ammunition could have left the warehouse of
4 the 35th logistics base. There is at a storage facility within that
5 warehouse holding the reserves of the Drina Corps. The warehouse, as a
6 building, was the responsibility of the Drina Corps, and that is where
7 its reserves were kept.
8 As for physical control, in terms of a facility such as this one,
9 and this was a specialty facility if I can put it that way, because
10 ordinance was kept there. Now, that was something that was the
11 responsibility of the 35th logistics base. In that same warehouse, there
12 were storage units holding the reserves of the 35th logistics base as
13 well.
14 Now, there was an authorisation from this clerk, Basovic, and
15 whatever left the compound, pursuant to this authorisation, was something
16 that left the Drina Corps; and the Drina Corps was perfectly within its
17 rights. Nevertheless, without approval or authorisation from officers of
18 the 35th logistics base, nothing could leave the unit, or, indeed, enter
19 the unit. And I hope that answers your question.
20 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Fauveau Ivanovic, I think we have seen this
21 document before, but since there is no English translation, could you ask
22 the witness to read the handwritten parts of columns 36, where 35th
23 logistical base appears? No, down, down in there, bottom part.
24 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Sir, could you read what you see after the number "36," the
Page 28925
1 heading, and also the handwritten part.
2 A. "This equipment went directly from the 35th logistics base," and
3 then there is something that I can't quite read, "Bisic, Tisic D." That's
4 what it says.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
7 Q. I'd now like to ask you something about the principle of
8 subordination. The officers of the brigade - and I'm referring to the
9 logistics platoon - did they address themselves directly to the Main
10 Staff?
11 A. Your Honours, I cannot rule out the possibility that officers
12 from the brigades that went directly to the Main Staff. But this would
13 have constituted a violation of the subordination principle.
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I'd like to show you document
15 5D1009.
16 Q. Do you know what was the position of the officers of the Main
17 Staff as compared to the officers of the brigade which addressed
18 themselves -- or who addressed themselves directly to the Main Staff?
19 Sorry, there is an error in the interpretation. I'll begin
20 again.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, in the meantime, let's hear what Mr. McCloskey
22 has to say.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just like the last question, "officers of the
24 logistic bases," that's awfully broad. And "officers of the Main Staff"
25 is awfully broad, I don't see how it can be asked or answered and have it
Page 28926
1 make any sense. Or, it certainly doesn't help us anywhere.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Fauveau, having heard Mr. McCloskey, you
3 were going to refer the question in any case?
4 MS. FAUVEAU: [In English] Officers of logistic bases
5 [Interpretation] I don't see where it is "officers of logistics bases,"
6 perhaps the Prosecutor can give me the precise reference of the section
7 he is referring to.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: It was the question you asked immediately before
9 that, about subordination. And you said -- and he said they couldn't go
10 directly to the Main Staff and --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: It's, at least in mine, it's page 23, the first
12 four lines:
13 "I'd like to ask you something about the principle of
14 subordination. The officers of the brigade," and then we have here, "and
15 I'm referring to the logistics platoon."
16 In other words, you are saying the officers of the logistic
17 platoon, did they address themselves directly to the Main Staff.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: So the suggestion there is the commander of the
19 logistic base can't address himself to the Main Staff.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Fauveau, let's -- let her handle it and
21 then we will see whether Mr. Miljanovic can answer the question.
22 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think the witness
23 has answered that question, and what is more I wasn't talking about the
24 bases, I was talking about the brigades. And there is an error in the
25 interpretation.
Page 28927
1 I do not see where the Prosecutor found a reference to the base,
2 but I'll repeat it anyhow.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: We are wasting time. Let's move.
4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, I entirely agree.
5 Q. Witness, does this document confirm what you said; in other
6 words, when an officer of the brigade addressed himself directly to the
7 Main Staff, that was tantamount to a violation of the principle of
8 subordination?
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 Q. Let's now refer to a slightly different situation. When an
11 officer of the logistics department of the corps was to address himself
12 to the Main Staff, to whom would he address himself?
13 A. Your Honours, as far as communication within the army of
14 Republika Srpska was concerned, it was a perfectly legitimate thing, and
15 normal, should I say, for the assistant commander of the corps for
16 logistics to address directly the assistant commander for logistics for
17 the Main
18 Likewise, the chief of the technical service within the command,
19 the rear organ of the corps command, would communicate directly with the
20 chief of technical service, his counter-part in the Main Staff of the
21 army Republika Srpska. Some clerks who worked in such commands, for
22 example, a clerk that was in charge of keeping track of ammunition, they
23 would then get in touch with their own counter-parts in a superior
24 command and thus they worked their way up the chain of command in this
25 way.
Page 28928
1 Q. [No interpretation]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: We are not receiving interpretation, and I don't
3 know if interpretation in B/C/S is forthcoming either. So I see some of
4 your colleagues indicating that there was no B/C/S interpretation,
5 interpretation in B/C/S.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: One of the microphones in
7 the booth is not working, hence the absence of interpretation. She's now
8 changed microphones, so it should be working.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. Thank you so much for your help.
10 There was a technical problem which I understand has now been
11 fixed. So if you could be kind enough to repeat your question, please.
12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Who was in charge of logistical support for combat during a
14 military operation?
15 A. Your Honours, whenever there was a military operation, logistics
16 support was something that would be organised by whichever unit happened
17 to be organising the operation.
18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I'd like to show you Exhibit 5D361.
19 It is a directive from the Main Staff, Directive Number 7.1.
20 Q. Have you heard of that directive?
21 A. No.
22 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I'd like to show you in particular
23 page 7 in B/C/S and page 8 in the English version.
24 Q. Could you please have a look at item 6.6, sir.
25 A. I've read item 6.6.
Page 28929
1 Q. According to your experience and according to your knowledge of
2 the Main Staff, who within the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska
3 could have written what is in item 6.6?
4 A. Your Honours, I'm not sure I understand the question. What
5 exactly do you mean?
6 Q. Well, you said you weren't familiar with this directive, but on
7 the basis of your experience of the work carried out within the Main
8 Staff, who, within that Main Staff, could have been in a position to
9 write this?
10 A. Your Honours, based on my experience, on my work with the Main
11 Staff of the army of Republika Srpska, and based, of course, on my
12 training and military education, an item like this could have been
13 proposed to the commander by the assistant commander for logistics alone.
14 Opposed [as interpreted] I said.
15 Q. The --
16 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I won't need this document anymore,
17 thank you.
18 Q. The logistic department of the Main Staff, did it have a role to
19 play in logistic supports for the activities that were planned within
20 subordinate units? [In English] For the combat activities.
21 A. Your Honours, the interpretation that I am getting is whether the
22 logistics department of the Main Staff have a role. Whenever there is
23 something that I don't understand, I have no choice but to ask. What is
24 the logistics department that we are talking about?
25 Q. [Interpretation] Did the logistics sector of the Main Staff have
Page 28930
1 a role in logistics support of combat activities that were planned within
2 subordinate units within the corps or within the brigades, that is?
3 A. Your Honours, any operations planned by subordinate units in
4 terms of logistics were planned and implemented by the logistics organs
5 of those very units. Now, as for the logistics sector of the Main Staff
6 of the army Republika Srpska, they did not plan the corps's operations,
7 or, indeed, the lower level activities by any of the brigades; nor,
8 indeed, were they directly involved in any of these.
9 Q. Did the logistics sector of the Main Staff take part in the plan
10 and preparation of military actions around Srebrenica and Zepa during the
11 summer of 1995?
12 A. Your Honours, not that I know of. I personally certainly was not
13 involved in anything like that.
14 Q. When did you hear that the army of Republika Srpska had entered
15 Srebrenica?
16 A. Your Honours, I do not have clear knowledge about that.
17 Nevertheless, I am trying to think back. I seem to remember this was
18 something that I learned from the public media. There was a TV set in
19 the operations room that was always on and people were watching.
20 Q. Could you tell us when that was? Could you be more specific as
21 to the date? Or was it the day after, two days after the very day that
22 the army entered Srebrenica?
23 A. Your Honours, I would be hard put to pinpoint a date. I remember
24 that it was the same day that it actually happened.
25 Q. Do you remember any particular request from the Drina Corps to
Page 28931
1 the logistics sector after the army of Republika Srpska entered
2 Srebrenica?
3 A. No, no, I don't remember a request like that.
4 Q. Do you remember any particular order given to the logistics
5 sector?
6 A. No. I remember no such order being given to the logistics
7 sector.
8 Q. Do you have some knowledge about buses that went to Potocari?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Could you tell us what you know about those buses?
11 A. Your Honours, I remember when General Djukic spoke to one of the
12 officers from the transport service, and this was in my presence. May I
13 continue?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, go ahead.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So he spoke to this officer telling
16 him to prepare a total of 50 buses to be dispatched to Potocari the next
17 day and to report directly to General Mladic.
18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Do you know where General Mladic [as interpreted] obtained that
20 information?
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: General Djukic.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, I do not know
23 that.
24 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
25 Q.
Page 28932
1 A. I do have later information indicating that yes, indeed, those
2 buses had arrived in Srebrenica. But I hadn't actually learned about
3 that on that particular day.
4 Q. To be more specific, can you tell us whom those buses belonged
5 to?
6 A. Buses belonged to the army of Republika Srpska.
7 Q. What unit in particular?
8 A. I can't say exactly which unit each of the buses belonged to, but
9 the traffic and transportation officer probably knew exactly what the
10 breakdown was in relation to that.
11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's have a 25-minute break now. Thank
13 you.
14 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau, how much more time do you think you
17 need?
18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Around about 20 minutes, Your
19 Honour.
20 Just before continuing, I would like to correct the -- the
21 record, which is page 27, line 6, rather than saying "opposed," [In
22 English] it should be "proposed, I said."
23 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, after the army of Republika Srpska
24 entered Srebrenica, was the logistics sector of the Main Staff, as far as
25 you know, in receipt of any request for fuel?
Page 28933
1 A. Your Honours, I have no information about the entry of the army
2 of Republika Srpska into Srebrenica or of any requests for fuel. Except
3 for what I had heard on television, is that what you meant? All right.
4 We didn't understand each other, I apologise.
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the last sentence
6 of what the witness said.
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
8 Q. If the subordinate units, and particularly the Drina Corps, had
9 received such a request, to whom should such a request for fuel have been
10 addressed?
11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] There is a mistake in the
12 interpretation.
13 Q. In the subordinate units, inter alia the Drina Corps, had made
14 such a request, to whom should such a request have been made?
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: The fall of Srebrenica is a very unique
18 situation, and if this person is telling us he has no knowledge of it,
19 then it's really not relevant what might happen in a general situation
20 because it doesn't get us anywhere. I mean, if she wants to ask in a
21 general situation who would it go to, I don't mind; but the suggestion
22 that this is something going on in Srebrenica for a person that says he
23 knows nothing about it is improper.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Fauveau.
25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] This is a general question.
Page 28934
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Then, Mr. Miljanovic, could you answer
2 it, please.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the usual procedure
4 for communications in that sense is the way that I explained before, and
5 that is if the logistics sector needed to ask for fuel, they would refer
6 to someone at their level; but if the request was made by a commander it
7 would be made to a commander. This is my answer.
8 MS.
9 continues] ...
10 its 1190 B. This is my mistake, 1199. You can't see this on the
11 document, but the date of the conversation is the 16th of July, 1995
12 it was at 1912, between Basevic and an unknown individual concerning
13 fuel.
14 Q. You have already told us in reference to another document, who
15 was Basevic and I would like to know whether the Basevic in this
16 conversation is the same person?
17 A. Your Honours, it's possible, but I cannot state that decidedly.
18 Q. Do you see in this conversation that there was a certain Miletic
19 who was referred to? Could you tell us whether this might be
20 General Miletic?
21 A. Your Honours, I apologise. I don't see here where Miletic is
22 being referred to.
23 Q. It's in the first paragraph at the start, the first paragraph of
24 the conversation at 1912.
25 A. Thank you.
Page 28935
1 Q. Can you read that first paragraph?
2 A. I'm just trying to do that, yes: "The petrol has gone ..." This
3 word is illegible to me, "... I said to Vuletic or Miletic today," I
4 cannot see exactly what it is, "Tetic, when I spoke with him about these
5 requests that -- that Zvornik sent and Sekovici, Zvornik is solved."
6 Is that what I was supposed to read? Your Honours, I cannot
7 conclude from this that it -- it's General Miletic that is being referred
8 to here. If I am supposed to speculate, I mean, I can; but this is an
9 assumption. If it's correct that Basevic is calling and if that is the
10 clerk of the technical service at the Drina Corps command, and if he in
11 the conversation mentions that he spoke with General Miletic, then that
12 in line with what I have already said does not make sense to me.
13 Q. In this paragraph, do you see the word "general" anywhere?
14 A. No, Your Honour, I didn't say that. I said if this was the case,
15 but I don't see that it is written anywhere.
16 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I'd now like to show you 1111. In
17 English it is 1111 A, and in B/C/S 1111 B.
18 Q. Here, as you can see, the conversation was dated 12th of July,
19 1995, and what I am interested in is in B/C/S at 1220, the conversation
20 at 1220, where two unknown individuals are talking. Just before that,
21 sir, could you tell me whether the General Miletic had a nickname?
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau, sorry to interrupt you, but I am
23 informed that this document is confidential.
24 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. Perhaps
25 this document should indeed not be broadcast.
Page 28936
1 Q. First of all, can you tell me whether General Miletic had a
2 nickname?
3 A. I don't recall a nickname other than people close to him, when I
4 would be close to him, would refer to him as Mico, his closest
5 associates; but I never referred to him in that way when communicating
6 with him.
7 Q. Does this conversation tell you that the Miletic mentioned in
8 this could be General Miletic?
9 A. No, Your Honours, I cannot conclude that from this conversation,
10 that it is, indeed, General Miletic that is being referred to here. It
11 says clearly "Miletic" but as for the rest ...
12 Q. When you read this conversation, what conclusion do you draw,
13 that Miletic knew something about the fuel, this Miletic in question, or
14 that he knew nothing?
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, that's leading.
16 JUDGE KWON: Could we show the bottom part of the B/C/S to the
17 witness.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: And it is indeed leading, Ms. Fauveau.
19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
20 Q. What conclusion do you draw from reading this conversation as to
21 the Miletic in question and his knowledge about any fuel?
22 A. Your Honours, whether this is suggested or not I read here that
23 the person marked "Y" says he doesn't know either. That personally --
24 that previously said, "I don't know, I told Miletic." So it can be
25 concluded that this Miletic that's being referred to here doesn't know
Page 28937
1 anything about the fuel.
2 Q. I'd now like to move on to the final subject in my examination.
3 Did you have knowledge about the combat in the Zepa region in July 1995?
4 A. No, no, Your Honours, I had -- have no knowledge about that.
5 Q. Do you have any recollection linked to Zepa and July 1995?
6 A. Yes, Your Honours, I do have a recollection of a call from
7 General Mladic. I don't remember the date. When he asked me where
8 General Djukic was; of course, I answered that I didn't know.
9 General Mladic continued the conversation and told me, Tell Djukic to
10 send 50 buses tomorrow to the village of Sjeversko
11 what time; and he stopped there and then continued, Well, tell him to
12 call me when you find him. And that's where the conversation ended. I
13 remember that conversation well.
14 Q. And did you convey the message to General Djukic?
15 A. Yes, Your Honours. As soon as I met General Djukic I informed
16 him about the content of the conversation and General Mladic's order that
17 General Djukic is to call him.
18 Q. And do you know what happened afterwards with these buses?
19 A. After a certain amount of time, General Djukic called me on the
20 telephone and dictated what I was supposed to write down as an order and
21 send to certain places.
22 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I'd like to show the witness
23 Exhibit 5D1113.
24 Q. And while we're waiting, you said that General Djukic called you.
25 Do you know where General Djukic was when he called you?
Page 28938
1 A. No, Your Honours, I didn't know.
2 Q. Sir, could you take a look at this order.
3 A. Yes, I've looked at it.
4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can we scroll down to the bottom to
5 show the bottom page to the witness. It's the bottom of the first page
6 in B/C/S and it's page 3 in English. Can we show what is at the bottom
7 left of the page to the witness. Thank you.
8 Q. We can't actually see the name, but we can read "deputy assistant
9 command for." Do you know who might have signed this order? Do you know
10 who signed the order?
11 A. Your Honours, I could have signed it, or it could have been
12 signed by someone ordered to sign it by General Djukic in my absence.
13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can we show the part where it says
14 "deputy assistant commander for." There, thank you.
15 Q. Do you recall having written this order?
16 A. Your Honours, I remember the contents very well, but I don't know
17 now whether I actually wrote the order or if I just drafted a brief
18 outline. I am not ruling out the possibility that I did sign it. It's
19 possible.
20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we show the witness point 1
21 on this order. And in English it's at the bottom of the page 1.
22 Q. So we see that it's to do with a bus to transport the ill and the
23 injured, and 50 buses to transport women and children from the
24 population.
25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] And then if you take a look at
Page 28939
1 point 2, page 2 in English.
2 Q. Can you explain why this sanitary unit was sent, was dispatched?
3 A. Your Honours, I see what is written there and I do recall that
4 one bus, as it says here, was sent at 10.00, and that the medic team was
5 sent there in order to take care of the sick and the wounded and to
6 provide first aid in the field.
7 Q. And now I'd like you to take a look at paragraph 4.
8 A. Yes, I've looked at it.
9 Q. Who is Colonel Jovanovic, Milisav?
10 A. Your Honours, Milisav Jovanovic is a Colonel, and he's chief of
11 the quarter master section of the Main Staff of the army of Republika
12 Srpska.
13 Q. According to this order, the colonel, through the chief of the
14 operations and training administration, had to provide a military unit, a
15 police unit.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know why this order was given to Colonel Milisav Jovanovic
18 to secure a police unit in the case of need?
19 A. I can make an assumption with a great degree of certainty why
20 this is written as it is. I remember the tone when General Djukic talked
21 about this previous experience from Srebrenica made him formulate and
22 regulate the pulling out of war booty in this way, from Zepa.
23 Q. What did you hear General Djukic say as regards Srebrenica?
24 A. Your Honours, I heard before, sometime after the fall of
25 Srebrenica, he also called me from somewhere, and dictated an order of
Page 28940
1 similar content as this one. But it was about extracting the war booty
2 and a team that had to be sent to Srebrenica to do that. This is what I
3 remember.
4 Q. And was that actually done in Srebrenica?
5 A. No, it wasn't.
6 Q. Do you know why?
7 A. Yes, I do. I remember that the person who was sent to
8 Srebrenica, lieutenant-Colonel or Colonel Strahinja Jankovic, I cannot
9 remember which rank, from the 27th rear logistics base, was entrusted
10 with the execution of this assignment. After a day or two or three, I
11 cannot remember, he sent a report informing that he was not in a position
12 to execute the assignment because he was prevented in doing this by the
13 civilian authority organs, and he referred to, in this context, a certain
14 gentleman with the last name of Deronjic. And after I learned this, I
15 informed General Djukic about it.
16 Q. Could you repeat the name of Colonel Jovanovic who reported what
17 happened at Srebrenica so as to avoid there being any confusion with
18 Milisav Jovanovic?
19 A. Your Honours, I said Strahinja Jankovic, not Jovanovic if I
20 recall correctly.
21 Q. And you said, but it's not in the record, which logistics base
22 was the colonel from?
23 A. Strahinja Jankovic was from the 27th logistics base.
24 Q. Now, let's come back to this order. Colonel Jovanovic, if
25 necessary, was to secure a police unit through the chief of the
Page 28941
1 operations and training administration. As regards to the chief of
2 operations and training administration, was he compelled to follow that
3 order?
4 A. I understand that Colonel Jovanovic had the obligation to refer
5 to chief of operations and training administration, that was his duty. I
6 don't know how the other person was supposed to act.
7 Q. We also see this paragraph 5 in this order, where we can read:
8 "[In English] The Drina Corps's command shall order unit command
9 in the Zepa sector to provide all necessary assistance to the team
10 charged with pulling out war booty."
11 A. Yes, that's what it states. That is what is written.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Was the deputy commander for logistics entitled
13 to give orders to the Drina Corps command?
14 A. No, he was not entitled to give orders, as you asked. I
15 responded to this question yesterday.
16 Q. Is there an explanation for this paragraph 5?
17 A. Yes. If we go back to the beginning of this document, this
18 telegram, is that possible?
19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can we go to the top of this page
20 in the English version and in B/C/S.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Page 1 in the English version, interpreter's
22 correction.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There, if you look in the upper
24 left corn, second section, it reads: "Deliver to the 27th POB command,
25 Drina Corps command - PKPO," which means assistant commander for
Page 28942
1 logistics. And just underneath to the attention of GS VRS-KM, which
2 means Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska, command post.
3 Therefore, General Djukic dictated the substance of this document
4 to someone and was trying to emphasize that the person he was addressing
5 was the assistant commander for logistics at the Drina Corps command.
6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
7 Q. And the assistant commander for logistics of the Drina Corps,
8 should he have informed his commander of this order, the commander of
9 Drina
10 A. Your Honours, these are questions from the area of command. I am
11 no expert in command, therefore what I have I say is probably irrelevant.
12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we show the witness P3015.
13 Just before this, the order is dated 19th of July, 1995. The one that we
14 see on the screen.
15 Could we have Exhibit P3015, please.
16 Q. You see, sir, that the date of this document is 20th July, 1995.
17 I'd ask for you to read through it carefully.
18 A. I've read it.
19 Q. Is there any link between this document and the order dated 19th
20 of July that you saw previously?
21 A. If I may speculate, I can't really say that the assistant
22 commander for logistics of the Drina Corps can familiarise the commander
23 with this, although he had received the other order. If he had received
24 the other ordering then there might well have been a link between the
25 two; or, rather, if the corps commander had been informed.
Page 28943
1 Q. Do you know whether the military police unit ever went to Zepa?
2 A. I don't know. I have no information on that.
3 Q. When General Djukic dictated to you the order that we saw
4 previously, he said that 50 buses had to be sent to transport the
5 population. Were you surprised by that request?
6 A. Your Honours, surprise can mean a lot of things. In wartime, I
7 tended not to be surprised by anything. I am not sure what you mean by
8 that.
9 Q. Had there ever been a similar situation before that?
10 A. Yes. I remember perhaps two situations like that before this
11 one, similar in nature.
12 Q. Could you tell us what happened in those previous situations?
13 A. I'm not sure if I'm getting the order right --
14 Q. Just briefly.
15 A. So the first situation would be a situation in which following
16 the clashes between the Croats and Muslim forces in the Travnik and Vitez
17 sectors, there was a mass exodus from that area by the Croats. The
18 Croats then moved to the Serb side in the Vlasic sector. I remember that
19 on that occasion, we organised for the transport. There was the Vares
20 area in Central Bosnia, that's where some people went, and the others
21 went west towards the Republic of Croatia
22 The other situation that I had in mind occurred again after
23 clashes between the Muslims and the Croats in the Vares sector. Again,
24 the Croats started leaving en mass and crossing to the Serb side.
25 Thousands of people, if I remember correctly. I know that again
Page 28944
1 transportation was provided, I'm not sure what it was off to, and I know
2 that medical teams were dispatched as well as bread and other kinds of
3 aid to support those people.
4 Q. Sir, before this testifying yesterday and today, have you had an
5 interview with the Office of the Prosecutor, the OTP?
6 A. Yes, I did. I was interviewed by the OTP's investigators on the
7 30th of September and on the 1st of October, 2004, I believe.
8 Q. When you were preparing for your testimony here, and there was a
9 translation made of some of the parts of that interview, what was your
10 reaction to what had been transcribed from that interview?
11 A. Your Honours, I'd hardly ever had a chance to see how my words
12 were translated. I must say this was a surprise to me. Even now, I
13 can't help admitting when read back the translation of my words hardly
14 ever meet my expectations in terms of what I think I'd said. So that
15 would be the first remark that I would like to place on the record.
16 Secondly, I skimmed the Serbian translation of the interview. My
17 impression at the time was that we had to, to some extent, been talking
18 at cross-purposes despite my best efforts to clarify a number of issues.
19 So that is the essence of what I wished to raise.
20 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Fauveau. Mr. Zivanovic.
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No questions for this witness, thank you.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Nikolic.
24 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Ms. Nikolic.
Page 28945
1 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No questions, thank you.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Lazarevic.
3 MR. LAZAREVIC: No cross-examination, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Krgovic.
5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I do have questions for this
6 witness, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could Counsel please be asked to speak up and
9 move closer to the microphone. Thank you.
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:
11 Q. I will be asking you several questions in relation to your
12 evidence so far. I will switch places with my colleague since the
13 interpreters seem to be having difficulty hearing me.
14 Mr. Miljanovic, I'm sorry for this brief interruption.
15 A. It's all right.
16 Q. Yesterday, you were asked by the Miletic Defence some questions,
17 and you said that between late March and early June 1995, General Djukic
18 was ill and could not perform his duties. Do you remember saying that,
19 sir? That is at page 28887, yesterday's transcript.
20 A. Indeed, Your Honours, I remember saying that, but I -- I believe
21 I said until mid-June. Not early June.
22 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Miljanovic. That was how I understood
23 your answer yesterday. But that's not what the transcript reflected.
24 A. Thank you very much very setting the record straight.
25 Q. Furthermore, you spoke about situations that occurred
Page 28946
1 occasionally when General Djukic was away for a short time. And then you
2 would stand in for him in performing certain tasks at the rear command
3 post. This is a different situation from him being off sick, right?
4 A. Your Honours, yes, I believe we can put it that way.
5 Q. If I understand your evidence correctly, if there was a document
6 for you to sign during the General's physical absence, you would put the
7 word "for" just above the signature, wouldn't you? And that's how the
8 document was dispatched, wasn't it? Whereas when he was permanently
9 away, you would put words like "representing" or "standing in for" or
10 something to that effect. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
11 A. Indeed, Your Honours, I believe there has been a
12 misunderstanding. I never said that I put the word "for" over
13 General Djukic's signature and then went on to sign the document. I
14 didn't say that, and I don't remember, as a matter of fact, ever doing
15 that. If you would like me to repeat exactly what it was that I said, I
16 would be all too happy to do that for you.
17 Q. So we have two situations and in both you would use your own name
18 in the signature line, right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When you were interviewed by the OTP in September 2004, the OTP
21 asked you a question about meetings, the meetings of the Main Staff
22 commander with his assistants; and this was about the period during which
23 you stood in for General Djukic. I looked at the transcript, and I fully
24 agree with you that the transcript itself is a poor reflection and the
25 English transcript is not very good. That is why I am knot now going
Page 28947
1 back to your subject. As far as I understood by looking at your
2 interview, you said at the time that during the period you were standing
3 in for General Djukic, except for issues such as promoting officers on
4 St. Vitus's day, you never had any meetings of the Main Staff with any of
5 the assistants, none at least that you attended. Do you remember saying
6 that in the interview?
7 A. Yes, that's what the interview says. I would like to add this,
8 however, there weren't any promotion meetings for St. Vitus's day, but
9 there was a whole day that we referred to as army day. But before both
10 these days there were other personnel board meetings at which proposals
11 were reviewed by subordinate units in terms of promotions, promoting
12 soldiers to a higher rank and so on and so forth.
13 Q. With the exception of these two meetings, during the period that
14 you were standing in for General Djukic between late March and mid-June,
15 as far as you knew there were no other meetings at which the commander
16 met his assistants, right?
17 A. I certainly can't think of a single one.
18 Q. You continue to answer the OTP's questions in that interview.
19 You go on to state that given the fact that Mladic was not your
20 run-of-the-mill officer, he was not really in the habit of holding
21 meetings because he was well aware of the situation throughout the army
22 as a whole. And this, you claimed, was the way he led the army. Do you
23 remember saying that? If not I'd be happy to bring up the relevant
24 paragraph from your interview for your benefit, sir.
25 A. Yes, I do remember the gist of what I stated.
Page 28948
1 Q. The Prosecutor goes on to ask you, specifically, at page 5 -- 5
2 out of 9 in the second section, because the interview has several
3 sections so this is probably section 2. The Prosecutor wants to know
4 about the relation between General Mladic and other members of the Main
5 Staff.
6 You answer:
7 "[In English] So in my opinion General Mladic is not a
8 conventional officer. He's not, you know, in stereotypes, so I am not
9 sure whether anyone knew about his decision besides this
10 General Milovanovic, who was his closest associate."
11 [Interpretation] Do you remember saying that?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. The Prosecutor pressed on with his questions about other members
14 of the Main Staff asking you whether they complied with his orders and
15 what their relationship with him was. And then you brought up the
16 example of General Djukic who stood up to Mladic on several occasions.
17 You went on to describe one particular such occasion. You remember
18 saying that, don't you?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
21 Exhibit 6D315.
22 Q. Mr. Miljanovic, I do not believe that you have had a chance to
23 see this document. You know that at some point during late January or
24 early February, 1996, General Djukic was, as a matter of fact, arrested?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment, one moment, before you answer the
Page 28949
1 question. Ms. Fauveau.
2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour, as regards
4 another individual. If my colleague wants the witness to comment on what
5 General Djukic has said, then he has to put forward the point that he
6 wants to be confirmed or otherwise without actually showing him this
7 statement.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. -- thank you, Madam Fauveau.
9 Mr. McCloskey.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have no objection. We've been doing this kind
11 of thing for two years, and I don't see why -- I think it would be unfair
12 at this point to stop it.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Krgovic, do you wish to comment?
14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the statement is on
15 our 92 quater list. This will be an exhibit. We referred to this in our
16 Defence brief. It's on the list. I see no reason for this statement not
17 to be used.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Fauveau.
19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Particularly as there has been a
20 motion under 92 quater list, under Rule 92 quater, on the part of my
21 colleague, my colleague should have submitted this request. And, in
22 fact, it was not submitted.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry, sorry, my apologies to you. Go ahead.
25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I've not intention of
Page 28950
1 tendering this exhibit or this document through this witness. I will do
2 that in compliance with the rules, but now I am using my opportunity to
3 talk to the deputy of the person who gave this statement to see if he can
4 make any comments and tell us what, if anything, he knows about certain
5 allegation in the statement. That is the purpose of my using it.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
7 JUDGE KWON: This statement was made to whom?
8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] The statement was made to the BH
9 authorities, the Croat and Muslim federation back when General Djukic was
10 arrested back in 1996, after which he was transferred to The Hague. This
11 is an EDS
12 it was admitted in the Perisic case at the OTP's behest.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we have no -- we see absolutely no
15 problem with you, Mr. Krgovic, making use of this part of the -- of
16 Mr. Djukic's statement, interview. The understanding is, as we have
17 always made it clear in the past, that it's what the witness here will
18 testify that will be such in evidence and not the contents of the part of
19 Djukic's statement that you will be reading, okay?
20 In other words, you are not introducing a statement by Mr. Djukic
21 through the use that you are making of this document with this witness.
22 All right? Okay. Let's proceed.
23 I don't know if you wish to repeat the question, or whether you
24 still have it in your mind, in your memory. Mr. Miljanovic, do you wish
25 us to read it out, again?
Page 28951
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you very
2 much. I didn't understand the question the first time around.
3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't think I asked one, as a
4 matter of fact, in relation to this statement. I was merely asking the
5 witness whether he was aware of the fact that General Djukic had been
6 arrested sometime late in January or early in February 1996 by the BH
7 police, possibly the BH army.
8 Do you remember that, sir?
9 A. Indeed, I do.
10 Q. Mr. Miljanovic, tell me, he was interviewed by the authorities,
11 he provided a number of statements to the BH authorities.
12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have page 5
13 displayed, that's the B/C/S reference. In the English, it's page 3. I
14 am interested in this part that we are going to read now.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the Counsel let us know where he's read
16 from.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Krgovic, the interpreters would like to know
18 where you are reading from. It will make their life much easier.
19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] In B/C/S it's page 5, fifth line
20 from the top. In English, this is on page 3, in the middle of the page
21 begins with Mladic. I'm going to read that:
22 "Mladic -- this meant that despite objections to the way in which
23 the Main Staff worked, some members of the Main Staff expressed their
24 disagreement, and I know that this disagreement was expressed by Gvero,
25 Maric, Salapura, and Djukic. That could be the reason why meetings were
Page 28952
1 not held often and why Mladic did not like negative information."
2 Q. Have you read this part?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] We don't need this document
5 anymore, Your Honours.
6 Q. Mr. Miljanovic, in essence what Mr. Djukic says, does that
7 reflect what you spoke about in your interview more or less?
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Krgovic, I'm afraid the transcript did not
9 reflect what you actually read out. If you could read out.
10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I will read it again.
11 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Miljanovic.
12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that we do not see the
13 document on e-court anymore.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that could be a problem. Could we have the
15 document back on e-court, please.
16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] It's page 3 in the English and page
17 5 in the Serbian.
18 Q. I'm going to read this again, Mr. Miljanovic:
19 "This meant that despite objections to the way in which the Main
20 Staff worked, some members of the Main Staff expressed their
21 disagreement. And I know that this disagreement was expressed by Gvero,
22 Maric, Salapura, Djukic. That could be the reason why meetings were not
23 held often and why -- and also why -- and also that Mladic did not like
24 negative information."
25 Mr. Djukic [sic], I am going to put my question to you again.
Page 28953
1 The people that are referred to here by their last names, General
2 Milan Gvero, do you agree?
3 A. I'm sorry, but you addressed me as Mr. Djukic.
4 Q. I'm sorry, it was a slip of the tongue. Mr. Miljanovic, these
5 people that are mentioned here are General Gvero, General Jovo Maric,
6 Colonel Petar Salapura, and General Djukic. Do you agree that these
7 people are referred to here?
8 A. Your Honours, I have many reasons to believe that they are the
9 persons in question.
10 Q. And they were all members of the Main Staff?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Are you aware or, rather, this statement by General Djukic, does
13 that more or less reflect what you also talked about in your interview,
14 or do you have your own opinions or information about that matter?
15 A. Your Honours --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, one moment. Yes, Ms. Fauveau.
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] It's just to know whether my
18 colleague is going to provide that information, precisely which period
19 was referred to by General Djukic in this -- in this statement, sorry.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Krgovic.
21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] General Djukic was speaking how the
22 Main Staff operated generally and relations within it. It was a
23 question -- I mean, that's how I understood what he said, what the
24 relations were within the Main Staff. He didn't mention a specific
25 time-period.
Page 28954
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's proceed. Mr. Miljanovic.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the late
3 General Djukic had his own way of expressing himself, and he was in that
4 sense a much more skillful man than I am. And probably I would not be
5 able to depict relations in the Main Staff like that, and also the
6 personality of General Mladic himself. But in essence you could say that
7 this does, more or less, reflect what I also wanted to investigators of
8 The Hague Tribunal, but I was not as skillful.
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Thank you, sir, for this answer. I will not be needing this
11 document anymore.
12 Mr. Miljanovic, I just wanted to clarify one thing from your
13 testimony yesterday, when you were talking about which organs were
14 located in Han Pijesak and when you were talking about the periods, you
15 were speaking about the military courts and the military prosecutor's
16 office. Do you agree with me that in one period in 1994 the military
17 court and the military prosecutor's office were transferred to Zvornik?
18 A. Yes. I don't know when that was exactly, but in a period of time
19 they -- excuse me, were transferred from Han Pijesak to the Zvornik
20 sector. Correct.
21 Q. And you said then, that's how the question was put, which organs
22 of the Main Staff, as far as I am concerned -- as far as I know the
23 military court and the military prosecutors' office were not part of the
24 Main Staff. They were independent organs, and the administration of
25 these organs was entrusted to the Minister of Defence. I can show you
Page 28955
1 regulations if that will help, but I think that is not something that is
2 controversial in this case.
3 A. Your Honours, it's very possible that because of my inexperience
4 as a witness I would say something like that which could mean correct. I
5 didn't have full information about whether the ministry or the supreme
6 military court and the Prosecutor's office were part of the Defence
7 ministry or of the Main Staff. I believe that they were in the Main
8 Staff, that's why I answered in that way, but I am not stating that
9 decisively, because I don't know that.
10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at of 6D234, please.
11 Can we show that to the witness.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Krgovic, the break will not be at 12.30 but in
13 four minutes' time. I'm letting you know this so that you regulate
14 yourself.
15 MR. KRGOVIC: Thank you.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Miljanovic, this is the Law on Military
17 Courts. Can we look at Article 9 of this law, please.
18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] It's on page 2. And that's the
19 page that begins on page 1 in the English version and ends on page 2.
20 Q. Mr. Miljanovic, I am going to draw your attention to this
21 paragraph, formation and territorial jurisdiction of the military courts
22 as established by the president of the republic upon proposal of the
23 Ministry of Defence --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not see the
25 original text.
Page 28956
1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. I am going to show you some articles and then I will put
3 questions to you.
4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
5 Article 27. In English this is on page 4.
6 Q. In Article 27 it says:
7 "Military court judges and judge-jurors shall be appointed or
8 dismissed by the president of the republic. Candidates for the post of
9 military court judges and judge-jurors shall be proposed by the Ministry
10 of Defence upon receiving recommendations from the supreme military court
11 president and the military court to which they will be appointed."
12 And, finally, Article 51.
13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] This is page 7 in English.
14 Q. "Within the scope of court administration, the Ministry of
15 Defence provides those services which pertain to organisation, personnel,
16 assets, and finances, on which the work of military courts depends."
17 Can we look at the page on B/C/S?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Your question, please, so that we have the break.
19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Miljanovic, it can be concluded on the basis of this document
21 that military courts have nothing to do with the Main Staff, do you agree
22 with me?
23 A. Yes, that is evident.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have a 25-minute break now. Thank you.
25 --- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.
Page 28957
1 --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: We are continuing the sitting pursuant to Rule 15
3 bis, the absence of Judge Kwon. So Mr. Krgovic.
4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. I am not going to show you any other document. We have a
6 document from the Prosecution, so the content is the same. So you will
7 agree me that, as you've already said, since this is not in your
8 jurisdiction you were not informed about the powers of courts and the
9 prosecutor's offices and where they belonged when you were answering that
10 question, which organs of the Main Staff were located at Han Pijesak, do
11 you agree with me?
12 A. Yes, Your Honour, you are absolutely right. I understood that as
13 which organs were located there, so I hope that I did not commit a major
14 sin.
15 Q. Mr. Miljanovic, you confirmed that from the end of March until
16 the middle of June, General Djukic was absent. In that period did you
17 receive any orders or instructions to prepare any orders or directives?
18 You already answered the question that you were not familiar with
19 Directive 7.1. So I'm just asking you about that answer of yours.
20 A. I do not recall any requests relating to any directive.
21 Q. And General Djukic did not tell you or issue instructions for you
22 to prepare any proposals in connection with that?
23 A. No, I cannot recall that either. Absolutely not.
24 Q. Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further questions for this
25 witness?
Page 28958
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Sarapa.
2 MR. SARAPA: No questions, thank you.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. McCloskey.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, thank you, Mr. President. And good
5 afternoon, everyone.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
7 Q. Good afternoon, General Miljanovic. I want to just first --
8 A. Good afternoon -- I'm sorry. I'm not a general, I never was one,
9 and I'm not one now.
10 Q. I'm sorry, Colonel.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go back to while we were on that to 6D315,
12 it's that interview -- or, more likely, an interrogation of
13 General Djukic. I believe it was in 1995, though I think it was after he
14 was arrested.
15 Q. There is -- I seem to recall a story where the signs were change
16 and General Djukic's group went to the wrong area and drove right into
17 the hands of the enemy, and he got arrested, correct? That was after the
18 war, I believe.
19 A. If we are talking about the signing of the Dayton Accords as the
20 end of war, you are absolutely right because this happened after that.
21 Q. All right. You remember that story about him taking a wrong turn
22 or something and him getting arrested?
23 A. I remember that story, but I wasn't -- I was absent then.
24 Q. And he was subsequently indicted by The Hague Tribunal and
25 transported to The Hague
Page 28959
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he was on provisional release when he died.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
3 Q. He died after his arrest by The Hague --
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Q. Is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. And --
8 A. Well, yes, I haven't actually answered yet, I'm waiting for this
9 thing to finish. What I know for sure is that General Djukic was
10 returned to Belgrade
11 Q. Of cancer --
12 A. For sure.
13 Q. -- which he had for a long time. Sorry, we were overlapping and
14 that's my fault.
15 So General Djukic died of cancer that he'd had for a long time,
16 correct?
17 A. Well, I couldn't confirm that. I know from stories that that's
18 how it was. Well, if it was really that is something that the medical
19 staff, doctors, would know.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Let's -- going back to that section,
21 I'm told it was -- page 3 in the English and page a 5 in the B/C/S. And
22 I'm going to read a bit more of that than the Counsel did.
23 Q. If you could start reading the paragraph that starts with: "The
24 Main Staff did not used to meet often ..." You should be able to see
25 that on that page. I'm sorry, I don't have a B/C/S hard copy for you:
Page 28960
1 "It will Main Staff did not used to meet often. The meets were
2 generally used for briefings on the situation, and at some meetings when
3 circumstances arose, ideas were put forward about subsequent tasks about
4 the army of Republika Srpska. A decision would be made beforehand by
5 two, three, or possibly four senior officers. The General concept would
6 be presented --"
7 A. I apologise, but I cannot follow this. Your Honours, I haven't
8 still managed to find the beginning. Something is not quite right.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So it must have been on the
11 previous page, Your Honours. It's all right. Now I can see it.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Problem solved.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry the -- it's the same place as last time,
14 just a little bit higher.
15 Q. "A decision would be made beforehand by two, three, or possibly
16 four senior officers. The general concept would be presented and
17 operatives would be given the task of formulating it. Apart from Mladic,
18 the following would take part in decision-making process:
19 General Milovanovic, General Tolimir, and possibly General Miletic."
20 You were standing in for General Djukic for many months in 1995,
21 do you agree with General Djukic's statement on this page that I just
22 read?
23 A. Your Honours, what General Djukic said in this sense is something
24 that I cannot really say much about, other that that's what he said. I
25 didn't attend any meetings where such decisions were adopted in order to
Page 28961
1 be able to say anything about it.
2 Q. All right. And it goes on and says:
3 "A decision was always based on General Mladic's plan. Mladic
4 was not inclined to listen to other views and particularly not if these
5 did not come from the department that he would deal with the matter.
6 Mladic was inclined to favour his close acquaintances from the past and
7 fellow countrymen regardless of their position."
8 Now, can we say that you surely know, sir, that the General Gvero
9 was a person that Mladic knew in his past. They were JNA officers
10 together and they knew each other from the past, didn't they?
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Krgovic.
12 MR. KRGOVIC: I object to that, Your Honour. There is no basis
13 for this question, because in this case nobody said that General Gvero or
14 Mladic had known each other.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes --
16 MR. KRGOVIC: In JNA.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey.
18 MR. KRGOVIC: What is the reference of that.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't need a reference to make such an obvious
20 truth, first of all. And it was a nice signal to the witness to say
21 that, and it was completely inappropriate --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- and the witness can answer the question.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed. Mr. Miljanovic, can you answer the
25 question, please.
Page 28962
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no knowledge
2 about when General Mladic and General Gvero met for the first time and
3 how long they knew each other. I know when I met General Mladic first
4 and I recall the first time that I met General Gvero:
5 MR. McCLOSKEY:
6 Q. In this, did you experience -- did you know that General Gvero
7 actually had the ability and courage to disagree with General Mladic as
8 mentioned in this -- this statement?
9 A. I think so, yes.
10 Q. And General Mladic would -- retained General Gvero all throughout
11 the war, didn't he?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. Okay. Now, let's go back a little bit. The time that you were
14 actually standing in for General Djukic, you took over his job during
15 that several month period, correct?
16 A. Yes, Your Honours. During that period of two and a half months
17 or so.
18 Q. And when -- it's been made a little unclear to me, when did you
19 actually cease being standing in for General Djukic?
20 A. Your Honours, I ceased to do that the day he returned to the Main
21 Staff of the army of Republika Srpska having undergone surgery.
22 Q. What month?
23 A. Sometime in mid-June 1995, June.
24 Q. Are you sure it wasn't first part of July 1995?
25 A. I am nearly sure. I do allow for the possibility that I might be
Page 28963
1 wrong. I don't know the exact date, but roughly speaking it could have
2 been mid-June. I am quite convinced that it was mid-June, but I can't
3 entirely rule out the possibility that it was early July.
4 Q. Well, and I think you've told the -- of the investigators before
5 you got -- you got paid more money when you had that bigger job, didn't
6 you?
7 A. Your Honours, I don't remember telling the investigators. I
8 think I said that yesterday while testifying before the Trial Chamber.
9 Q. Okay. But you did get paid more money. Well, let me show you
10 something and see if it may refresh your recollection.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's 65 ter 3950. And it should come up on the
12 list that, if Counsel don't mind, I can just hand him a copy.
13 Q. Now, as you can see that this is a document from the Main Staff
14 of the VRS. It's for the personnel -- from the personnel unit in the
15 name of General Skrbic, who we know is the head of that unit. And it's
16 to the Main Staff of the Yugoslav army, the personnel administrator of
17 the 30th personnel centre. And as we can see, we see what this says,
18 that General Djukic has come back from sick leave and resumed his
19 formation duty on the 7th of July 1995.
20 Now, you're aware that you and other career former JNA officers
21 were being paid by Serbian funds out of the 30th personnel centre of the
22 VJ, right?
23 A. Your Honours, I really didn't know. And, as a matter of fact, I
24 still don't know what funds were used to pay for the officers' salaries.
25 Q. Well, you knew you were being paid by Serbia?
Page 28964
1 A. I did not know that, as a matter of fact.
2 Q. Colonel, this Court has heard repeatedly from career JNA
3 officers. They have all -- well, not all of them, testified on this
4 point. But I never met one that did not know who he was getting his
5 money from. It's particularly difficult because the reserve guys, the
6 reserve officers who were not part of that club, were getting paid by the
7 RS and many times not getting paid. So it's something everyone knew.
8 Take a few seconds, think about your answer. Did you know that you were
9 being paid from Serbia
10 A. Your Honours, I really can't confirm that. I can't say that I
11 knew I was receiving my salary from Serbia.
12 Q. Where did you think you were getting your money from, your
13 salary?
14 A. Your Honours, I was convinced that the issue had been agreed in
15 one way or another who was paying the actual money. That was something I
16 didn't know. One thing is true, I received my salary the same way as
17 before, but I had no idea about the exact source.
18 Q. Sir, I'm not talking about the exact source. I'm saying which
19 country did it come from, Serbia
20 A. I didn't know whether it was from Serbia or from the Republika
21 Srpska.
22 Q. Where did the VRS get most of its ammunition for the war,
23 internal sources or from the VJ?
24 A. Your Honours, I don't have reliable information on this issue,
25 not the kind that would enable me to tell the truth to this Trial
Page 28965
1 Chamber.
2 Q. What information do you have on this? Where do you believe
3 the -- most of the ammunition for the VRS came from?
4 A. My information indicates that the late General Djukic was the
5 person who knew the most about this, and he kept it to himself. I did
6 not venture into that area myself. I did not pry into his business. I
7 did not try to find out where he was getting certain things from or,
8 indeed, what the amounts were arriving from the government of Republika
9 Srpska or the respective amounts that were come from the Republic of
10 Yugoslavia
11 Q. So ammunition did come from the FRY?
12 A. I can't say that it didn't. I simply can't base a judgment like
13 that or anything. I would rather assume that it did, in fact, come from
14 there.
15 Q. Okay. You've told us that you knew something about the
16 transportation after the fall of Srebrenica. You learned about the need
17 for buses from General Djukic. What was that for? What were the buses
18 for?
19 A. Your Honours, when I found out about that, I had no idea what the
20 buses were for.
21 Q. Didn't you take part in drafting the orders and communications to
22 help your boss get those buses?
23 A. Your Honours, I don't know what order you are talking about, and
24 I most certainly was not involved.
25 Q. When did you find out what those buses were to be used for? How
Page 28966
1 soon after you heard about it out of Djukic's mouth?
2 A. Your Honours, I could have drawn an inference, and that's what I
3 assume happened several days later following the next dictate by
4 General Djukic for that team that I spoke about to be dispatched to
5 Srebrenica.
6 Q. So you've told us that Djukic said 50 buses needed to go to
7 Bratunac or Potocari the next day, and now you're tell us that several
8 days after that you learned what those buses were for, correct?
9 A. No, no, no. I don't know what exactly the buses were used for,
10 but based on the invitation that we received they said that they needed
11 to evacuate some equipment from Srebrenica by the same buses that had
12 been used to transport civilians.
13 Q. So when did you learn that?
14 A. Well, I can't say exactly but three, four -- possibly five days
15 following the fall of Srebrenica.
16 Q. And was there mention of trucks?
17 A. General Djukic was talking to me about trucks, not about buses,
18 trucks, yes.
19 Q. Well, it's been interpreted as buses until I just asked you about
20 trucks. So did you -- what were those trucks supposed to be used for?
21 A. Those trucks -- not all of them, they were meant to be used for
22 ferrying some goods or equipment over from Srebrenica. This was supposed
23 to be dismounted [as interpreted] and stored in RS army warehouses.
24 Q. And this was some kind of war booty I take it?
25 A. Yes, you might put it that way or at least that's how it was
Page 28967
1 treated at this time.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: In the previous answer, it
3 should have been dismantled or taken part, not dismounted.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY:
5 Q. And you have seen an order with your name on it to that effect by
6 the Defence prior to testifying, right?
7 A. No, that is not so, Your Honours. I actually remember this.
8 Q. All right. Well, you knew -- so you were involved in issues of
9 war booty for the -- after the Srebrenica campaign and we know from what
10 your answers were about Zepa and the war booty issues of that document.
11 We've seen that you were involved in war booty issues for Zepa as well.
12 So were you the war booty guy at the logistics sector?
13 A. No, Your Honours. I was not the war booty guy.
14 Q. Now, we see in a General Djukic was out for a long time from
15 March until July 7th. Does that refresh your recollection about when he
16 actually came back, that document that's in front of you? It's still on
17 the screen.
18 A. No, Your Honours, I wasn't the person who produced this document.
19 It doesn't jog my memory, nor, indeed, do I believe that it is accurate.
20 Q. So you don't know that the 30th personnel centre of the VJ is the
21 place that's actually distributes the money, and that this document is to
22 them so they know to stop giving you the that higher salary on a
23 particular date? You disagree with that. You think this is a made-up
24 document?
25 A. No. I didn't say that it was fabricated or made-up.
Page 28968
1 Q. Okay. Now, what was wrong with General Djukic during that
2 several month period, five months, roughly?
3 A. Your Honours, General Djukic was away, April, May, and June, up
4 until mid-June or perhaps late June. I don't know exactly. I don't know
5 the exact date he left, either, but it could not possibly have been more
6 than three months altogether.
7 Q. Well, let's -- let's say it's three to four months -- or three
8 months like you say. What was wrong with him?
9 A. As far as I know, he left to receive treatment, and he underwent
10 surgery.
11 Q. Treatment for cancer?
12 A. That is what I heard.
13 Q. Surgery for cancer can be extremely serious. How serious was the
14 surgery?
15 A. I can't say it was something that was easy. If it was an issue
16 that serious, then it could hardly have been anything else but a
17 difficult kind of surgery.
18 Q. Well, do you know that they actually remove organs and that kind
19 of thing, or do they just, you know, do a biopsy. I don't expect that
20 you would know the exact details of it, but I think that you would have a
21 general idea?
22 A. Your Honours, all I know is what I heard, and who knows if that
23 is true or not. If the Court wants to happen exactly what I heard about
24 that, well, I would be glad to say.
25 Q. I am asking you to tell us what you've heard about his condition,
Page 28969
1 about the extent of his surgery. We probably all know people who have
2 had this happen, so why don't you give us a bit an insight into it.
3 A. Your Honours, I heard that he was off to get surgery for a
4 pancreas cancer. I'm not sure if it was surgically removed in its
5 entirely or not, and I'm not sure what type was surgery was performed.
6 Q. Okay. Fair enough. But he was not east never quite the same
7 after he got back, was he? Especially in those first couple of weeks
8 after he got back.
9 A. Your Honours, upon his return, General Djukic, to much amazement
10 for many a quarter [as interpreted] was perhaps not the old
11 General Djukic but exercised the same -- exuded the same authority as
12 ever before. So yes, he was the old General Djukic, you might say.
13 Q. All right. When you were standing in for him, you had to know
14 whole job not just your operations sector. You had to know the technical
15 group and the other three or four units you've discussed, correct?
16 A. Your Honours, a truthful answer would be I should have known, but
17 the worse part was that I could not have known.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Let's go to 65 ter 3954.
19 Q. Colonel, if we could -- okay, I've handed you that. Now, this is
20 from the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska. It's got a number
21 10/36 on it. What's the significance of that, before we get into the
22 actual document?
23 A. Your Honours, I'm afraid I'm not sure what I'm expected to
24 answer.
25 Q. Well, just take a look up in the left-hand corner, right under
Page 28970
1 the Main
2 number 10/36/4-132."
3 A. Your Honours, this means that the document was produced at the
4 Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska, the logistics sector, and the
5 number is 10/36/4-132.
6 Q. Okay. So if 10 is the logistics sector, what is the 36?
7 A. Your Honour -- Your Honours, I didn't say the 10 stood for
8 logistics. I don't actually know what number was used for the logistics
9 sector.
10 Q. What's the significance of number 36, if you know?
11 A. At this point, Your Honours, I am unable to say. I am unable to
12 say what 36 meant.
13 Q. Okay. But if we just take a look at this, it says: "Standing in
14 assistant commander more logistics." Is that you, on 27 May? And if it
15 could come up so we can see the bottom, that was the ...
16 Is that you or did somebody else in 27 May -- was someone else
17 standing in for the assistant commander for logistics?
18 A. Your Honours, on 27th of May, 1995, I was the one standing in.
19 Q. Okay. So you're the one that issued this order, as you see on
20 the first page, it says: "I hereby order ..."
21 A. That might be the inference, but I can't say that I was the one
22 who dispatched this. Given the fact that the signature is missing, and
23 on top of that I don't really remember this document.
24 Q. Well, I won't get into the whole document. Just the beginning we
25 see that it has to do with fuel conservation and saving fuel. You don't
Page 28971
1 remember being involved in ordering all these corps to do these
2 particular measures?
3 A. I can't remember, Your Honours.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay, let's go to number 3955. And I'll hand you
5 this as well.
6 Q. This is another document dated 27 May 1995, Main Staff of the
7 army Republika Srpska. And NR, which means personally to
8 Colonel Miljanovic, it talks about the request of storing supplies in the
9 35th logistics base in Bijeljina. And it's a request to do that.
10 Somebody wants to store charged casings that are intended for the
11 purchaser of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
12 Do you remember facilitating this? This appears to be ammunition
13 going to the federal republic in this situation.
14 A. Your Honours, I don't remember this.
15 Q. Okay.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to 3943.
17 Q. I'll give you a copy of that. This now is a 17 June 1995
18 document from the Main Staff, and your name is type-signed at the bottom
19 of it, standing for the assistant commander, Colonel Ratko Miljanovic.
20 And this sent, as we can see, to the logistic bases and many of the
21 institutions I think that you listed for Ms. Fauveau when you were
22 talking about the units of the logistic -- of your logistic sector. And
23 it's really it looks like a -- it's called a greeting card on the
24 occasion of St. Vitus day, and that's what it sounds like. It sounds
25 like a moral-type greeting card:
Page 28972
1 "On the contrary, the enemy like many times so far supported no
2 not only by Islamic factor, but by NATO forces are making useless and
3 desperate efforts to achieve their loathsome goals."
4 Do you remember, did somebody write that for you or did you write
5 that yourself?
6 A. Your Honours, first of all, I don't remember writing this.
7 Q. So you know nothing about it?
8 A. For the time being, based on what I see, no.
9 Q. "For the time being," what does that mean?
10 A. Well, if there was a document showing my name there would be no
11 doubt, would there. This being what it is, this is not my style. I
12 don't write like this; therefore, I am unable to say.
13 Q. Well, did you communicate with the logistics people, the people
14 that are basically under your direction when you are standing in for
15 General Djukic and communicate them about morale issues, propaganda
16 issues, this sort of thing?
17 A. Your Honours, as far as that is concerned, I never discussed that
18 type of topic with anyone in my sector. That wasn't how I led my people.
19 Q. Okay. Were you involved in anything relating to supplying
20 conscripts with supplies in around May or June of 1995 when you were
21 standing in for General Djukic?
22 A. Could I ask the interpreters just to repeat the beginning of the
23 sentence. I didn't hear that well.
24 Q. Were you involved in providing supplies equipping mobilized
25 soldiers with supplies?
Page 28973
1 A. I don't recall that at all. Well, I really cannot decidedly say
2 whether I did or didn't do that.
3 Q. Okay. Let me show you --
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: 65 ter 3944.
5 Q. This is, as you're reading it, another document out of the
6 logistics sector of the Main Staff. This is 22 June. So we're now
7 beyond mid-June. And it's the attention of several corps, including the
8 Drina
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we go to the last page. Standing in for
10 the assistant commander for logistics, Colonel Ratko Miljanovic,
11 graduated engineer, with SR next to it.
12 Q. And this is an order, again, it's entitled, "Equipping Mobilized
13 Military Conscripts from the FRY." This is about personal weaponry.
14 This is part of the every day work that the assistant commander for
15 logistics is involved in, issuing orders, and in this case regarding the
16 supply of conscripts. Is this you?
17 A. Your Honours, it does state here my first and last name, but as
18 to whether I wrote this or signed this, I have no recollection of that
19 whatsoever.
20 Q. Does this help refresh your recollection that you actually did
21 get involved in equipping the troops? I mean, that's not a very radical
22 thing for the assistant commander of logistics to be doing. It's
23 certainly not a crime.
24 A. I cannot confirm what you are asserting. It's not the usual duty
25 of the assistant commander for logistics.
Page 28974
1 Q. Did you ever, while you were standing in as assistant commander
2 for logistics, ever do anything that's equipped any troops or assist in
3 the equipping of any troops with any equipment, that you can recall?
4 A. No, Your Honour, I cannot recall.
5 Q. How about food, did you ever assist in providing the -- any of
6 the troops with food? You know, helping the corps or the other units
7 kind of facilitate food to the troops?
8 A. Your Honours, that question is directed at me, that I did that?
9 Q. Yes, did you ever help facilitate the feeding of troops? Or help
10 direct where they should be fed or who should feed them?
11 A. I don't remember. That was the job of the quarter master
12 service. And this is the work that they did.
13 Q. Well, as assistant -- as standing in for the assistant commander
14 of logistics, you had some supervision over the quarter master section,
15 didn't you?
16 A. To the degree that I was able to do that objectively, physically.
17 Q. Yes, I'm not saying you're feeding him with a spoon.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let me show you 3945.
19 Q. This is another document out of the Main Staff logistics sector.
20 And your name, standing in for the assistant commander for logistics, is
21 to the command of the Drina Corps assistant commander for logistics, and
22 command of the airforce and anti-aircraft Defence of the 1st Zvornik
23 infantry brigade. And it's entitled "Feeding of man power and airforce
24 and anti-aircraft defence." And it's entitled "Order." It references a
25 telegram, and then says:
Page 28975
1 "Airforce and anti-aircraft defence helicopter crews located for
2 a longer time in Zvornik, 25 to 30 persons, should be fed at the 1st
3 Zvornik Infantry Brigade."
4 You ordered these crews to go eat at Vinko Pandurevic's brigade,
5 right?
6 A. Your Honours, I am not ruling out that this is possible.
7 Q. All right. Well, we're getting somewhere then.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to another document, number 3957. Last
9 one before the break.
10 Q. It is again from the Main Staff of the Republika Srpska army,
11 with that same number on it, 10/33. It's dated 14 July 1995, to the 27th
12 POB and to the command of the Drina Corps, and pursuant to Article 175 of
13 the law and a demonstrated need, it says, "I hereby order ..."
14 And if we go to the end, it says, "Deputy assistant commander for
15 rear service, Colonel Ratko Miljanovic."
16 Now, you told us that sometimes when Djukic stepped out for a
17 moment or something then you would sign off as his deputy, is this
18 what -- is that what's going on here?
19 A. Yes, Your Honours. I signed as the deputy when he was physically
20 not at the command post.
21 Q. Okay. Where was Djukic on 14 July? You had a lot of time to
22 think about these days before testifying.
23 A. Well, I cannot say that right now, Your Honours. I don't know
24 where he was.
25 Q. And how was it that this order -- where did you get the
Page 28976
1 information to write up this order?
2 A. In order to draft this order, I was called by General Lukic [as
3 interpreted] personally.
4 Q. Okay, General Djukic. They got the name wrong.
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. And did he tell you every bit of information in this or did you
7 research and get some more information yourself?
8 A. General Djukic practically dictated the entire contents as he was
9 in the habit of doing.
10 Q. Now, was there an officer named Kerkez at the Main Staff?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What was his full name?
13 A. Zeljko Kerkez.
14 Q. Last question. What unit -- what branch or unit was he in the
15 Main Staff?
16 A. Your Honours, Zeljko Kerkez was the chief of the traffic section
17 of the logistics section of the Main Staff of the army of Republika
18 Srpska.
19 Q. Thank you, Colonel. It's time for a break.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We are stopping here today. We will
21 resume tomorrow morning at 9.00. Same advisory as yesterday.
22 Mr. Miljanovic, you are not to discuss with anyone the subject matter of
23 your testimony.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
25 1.46 p.m.
Page 28977
1 28th day of November, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.
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