1 Tuesday, 5 December 2006

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5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

7 MS. EGELS: Your Honour, if you want the summary to be exactly

8 conformed to the 65 ter summary, we will then need to go into private

9 session because names are named in that summary. That is why I made a

10 slightly different one taking out those names. So it is whatever you

11 prefer.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I would opt for an open session, and

14 so I don't have a problem with the names being redacted or there being a

15 slight modification. I think it's important with these witnesses that we

16 have an open session if and when possible, and in this instance it's

17 possible. We trust the Prosecutor not to go beyond in the limits that are

18 set out in the summary already.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You will then give the summary

20 in open session, but without mentioning the names.

21 MS. EGELS: Thank you, Your Honour. The witness was 17 years old

22 and lived in 1993 in the village of Pijesevac Stolac municipality. On 1st

23 of July, 1993, the HVO started arresting Muslim males between 15 and 17

24 years old. The witness managed to hide with some other males of his

25 village.

1 On the 2nd of July, the witness saw 16 Muslim men from Pijesevac

2 Greda being arrested by HVO members in camouflage. Between the 2nd and

3 the 13 of July, the HVO patrols came to the village questioning the women,

4 searching the houses, stealing cars and tractors.

5 On the 13th of July, 1993, the HVO arrested the remaining Muslim

6 women, children, and elderly from Pijesevac Greda.

7 On 19 July, women returned from Crnica where they had been

8 detained to be confined in several houses in the hamlets of Djuic [as

9 interpreted] And Kaplan. Civilians were detained in these houses

10 undeplorable conditions. Before the return of those civilians, the

11 witness saw these hamlets being looted by the HVO.

12 On the 2nd of August, 1993, all civilians were expelled from those

13 hamlets. On that same day, the witness surrendered and was detained at

14 Kostana hospital in Stolac where the HVO military police were located. At

15 Kostana hospital, the witness and other prisoners were severely beaten.

16 Two of the co-detainees died of their wounds after being beaten.

17 Around the 5th of August, 1993, the witness and other detainees

18 were taken to Dretelj where he remained for about two months. Although

19 the witness was a minor at the time, he was detained at Dretelj under

20 harsh conditions and witnessed physical abuse against co-detainees.

21 On the 27th of September, 1993, the witness and others were taken

22 to Gabela where he was detained, although being a minor under, terrible

23 conditions. The witness was later transferred to Heliodrom from where he

24 was released on the 22nd of March, 1994. The witness was detained for 236

25 days and lost 31 kilos.

1 Your Honour, I would like to make two modifications in the

2 transcript. On page 7, line 23, it reads "males between 15 and 17."

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can we do this in open session

4 or what you're requesting or does it have to be done in private session?

5 MS. EGELS: So on line -- on page 7, line 23, it reads "males

6 between 15 and 17 years old." It is between 15 and 70 years old. And on

7 page 8, line 7, it reads the "hamlets of Djuic and Kaplan." It's Djulic

8 and Kaplan.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

10 MS. EGELS:

11 Q. Good morning, Witness CM.

12 A. Good morning.

13 Q. On the 3rd of October, 2001, you provided a written statement to

14 an investigator of the Office of the Prosecution of this Tribunal; is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When you provided this statement, did you provide it truthfully?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you provide it freely, without coercion?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. At the end of your interview, was that statement read back to you

22 in your own language?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you sign the French version of that statement?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Witness, can I ask you now to turn to Exhibit number 9753. It's

2 in the bundle in front of you. 9753. And can I ask you to go to the

3 French version of this document. I think it's the last version of the

4 three.

5 MS. EGELS: Your Honour, this document being under seal, it may

6 not be broadcasted outside this courtroom.

7 Q. Witness CM, is this your signature at the bottom of these pages?

8 A. Yes. Yes.

9 Q. Yesterday, you met with an investigator and with myself. At that

10 time, did you have the opportunity to read back your statement in your own

11 language?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is it correct that upon reviewing that statement in your own

14 language, you had some corrections to make?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is it correct that on page 1, paragraph 6 of both the English and

17 Bosnian version you explained that there is a part of the sentence that

18 needs to be taken out, and that part is in the sentence, "Our

19 neighbourhood was on a hillside and consisted of 13 Muslim houses up until

20 the end." You wanted to take out "on the other side of the road" because

21 that was not accurate?

22 A. Yes.

23 MS. EGELS: Your Honours, if I can ask to go for a minute to

24 private session because I will have to name names.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move into private session.

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25 [Open session]

1 MS. EGELS:

2 Q. Witness CM, on page --

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

4 MS. EGELS: Sorry.

5 Q. Witness CM, on page 8, paragraph 10 of the English version, page

6 6, paragraph 8 of the Bosnian version, the sentence that reads "In the

7 camp, the minors were separated," should in fact be replaced by "In the

8 camp, the minor were not separated from the adults and were subjected to

9 the same conditions of detention." Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. On page 10, paragraph 1 of the English version, page 7, paragraph

12 4 of the Bosnian version, you corrected the sentence that said that you

13 had -- you were not forced to work in either camp and were not subjected

14 to physical violence. By stating that while you were detained in Dretelj

15 you went to work to Vitina to pick the grapes and were subjected there to

16 threats. You also stated that when you arrived in Dretelj you were beaten

17 by another detainee, a former HOS member, while the HVO guards did not

18 intervene; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And, finally, when you referred to your transfer from Gabela to

21 Heliodrom, yesterday during proofing, you specified that this transfer

22 occurred on the 15th of December, 1993; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Witness CM, should you have to provide today in this court a full

25 testimony, would the content of that testimony be the same as the content

1 of your written statement given the directions we've just made?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I would like you now to turn to some exhibits. Can I ask you to

4 look at exhibit number 3057. In your statement, you refer to a wave of

5 arrests which started on the 1st of July, 1993, in Stolac, during which

6 all Muslim men between 15 and 70 were arrested. This document is a report

7 dated the 1st of July, 1993, signed by an HVO commander named Bogdanovic.

8 I would like you to take a look at item two, page 2 of the Bosnian

9 version, and that is item one, page 3 of the English version under the

10 header "Security Related Events." So for you, item two, page 2, under the

11 item "Security Related Events."

12 What this paragraph states, does it correspond to what you

13 experienced or perceived on the ground?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can I ask you now to turn to Exhibit number 3075. Still talking

16 about that wave of arrests on the 1st of July, 1993, this is another

17 report by Commander Bogdanovic dated the same day. Could I ask you to go

18 to paragraph one and paragraph four of the Bosnian version, and that is

19 paragraph one, page 1, and paragraph three, page 2, of the English

20 version. Do these paragraphs correspond to what you experienced on the

21 ground?

22 A. Yes.

23 MS. EGELS: Your Honour, I would like now to --

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This document, you were asked

25 whether it conforms with what you experienced. Does it?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The date -- well, on the 1st of July

2 is when the arrests started, and I can tell you about my municipality.

3 The arrests took place and were conducted by members of the HVO, and they

4 had the insignia clearly visible on their shoulders and arms, the military

5 police. And you could see the white belt denoting the military police.

6 They took part in the arrests of the Bosniak Muslim people on that date in

7 1993. We --

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 MS. EGELS: Your Honour, I would like to go now to private session

10 for the next document that will have to be under seal.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session.

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18 [Open session]

19 MS. EGELS:

20 Q. Witness, can I ask you to go to --

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

22 MS. EGELS:

23 Q. Can I ask you to go to Exhibit number 3121, please. Referring

24 again to the wave of arrests on the 1st of July, 1993, this is a report by

25 Commander Bogdanovic dated the 2nd of July, 1993, and referring to arrests

1 that took place from the 1st of July at 7.00 hour in the morning until the

2 2nd of July, 7.00 in the morning. Can I ask you to look at paragraph one,

3 two, and four of page 2 of the Bosnian version; one, two, four of page two

4 of the Bosnian version, and paragraph four, page 2, and one, page 3, of

5 the English version. And this comes under the header "Road-blockade

6 Check-points."

7 In your statement, you mentioned that you had hid while these

8 waves of arrests took place. What is stated in these paragraphs, did it

9 correspond to what you perceived or experienced on the ground at that

10 time?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Witness, can I ask you now to turn to Exhibit number 5222. In

13 your statement, you refer to your detention in Dretelj from about the 4th

14 of August, 1993, until the 27th of September, 1993. This document is an

15 intelligence report dated the 20th of September, 1993, and refers to the

16 conditions in Dretelj. Can I ask you first to turn to paragraph one, page

17 1 of both the Bosnian and the English version.

18 In this paragraph, it refers to Tomo Sakota being the warden of

19 Dretelj. Is this the person you refer to in your statement?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In paragraph two, page 1 of the Bosnian version and the English

22 version, it states that the military police and the home guards were in

23 charge of the security in Dretelj. Is this the situation as you perceived

24 it on the ground?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And paragraph two, page 2 of the English version, paragraph four,

2 page 1 of the Bosnian version. So for you, Witness, paragraph four, page

3 1. It refers to the number of persons detained, the fact that they were

4 all men, almost all Muslims, and that there were some minors. Is that the

5 situation as you perceived it on the ground?

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, with regard to the minors,

8 we know that you were 17. So when you were detained, did you meet other

9 people who were of the same age as you or even younger than you perhaps?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you want me to tell you about

11 Dretelj or Kostana and everything?

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Dretelj.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Two of my relatives were also

14 minors when we went to Dretelj, and five or six of them in the hanger with

15 me were also -- well, I can give you their names, but they were perhaps 15

16 or 16, even younger than me. They were also children; and in the other

17 hangars, there were people of my generation who were minors.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move into private session

19 and you can give us the names of these people who were underage.

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4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

6 MS. EGELS:

7 Q. Witness, in this document, on page 1, paragraph five and six, and

8 page 2, paragraph one and two of the Bosnian version, and that is

9 paragraph three to five, page 2 for the English, there it refers to the

10 living conditions in Dretelj. It refers to bedding, it refers to health

11 care, and it refers to meals. Is that the situation as you experienced it

12 on the ground?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Can you explain to the Court what the discrepancies are between

15 what is written in this report and what you experienced on the ground? So

16 what did you experience on the ground?

17 A. Accommodation in the hangars, when I arrived on the 4th of August,

18 during the day I had to sit down; and in the evening, we had to line up

19 like sardines to lie down. As far as bedding is concerned, blankets, we

20 had no blankets and we slept on concrete. And as for any medical aid, it

21 was only people who had experienced torture, whose legs and arms were

22 broken, who might have had a heart attack. Those people could go to the

23 outpatients' clinic, but not the rest of us.

24 Q. And what about the meals? Did you indeed receive twice a day

25 cooked meals?

1 A. Once a day until mid-August; and then from mid-August -- from the

2 28th, there were two meals, but the mistake is in the figure. It is not

3 one eighth of a loaf of bread, but one eighteenth of a loaf of bread, or

4 one sixteenth. So you had to get that many slices out of a single loaf of

5 bread, and we had 11 seconds to eat our meal. We had to run to get our

6 portion, gulp our meals down with some water, and you couldn't really

7 consider them meals. It was a slow death.

8 Q. Witness CM, in this same document, paragraph five, page 2 of the

9 Bosnian version, paragraph 8, page 2 of the English version, it refers to

10 the taking of valuables, the seizure of valuables from detainees. Is that

11 a situation that you experienced on the ground?

12 A. Yes. At the entrance to the camp itself, at the gates, there was

13 the military police and the warden of the camp -- well, the military

14 police would take us in with the beatings and the mistreatment, and all

15 our belongings would be taken away; our money, watches, jewellery, and

16 everything else. And they sort of just made a show of recording these

17 items, but they didn't really do that.

18 So you couldn't do anything. You could couldn't buy anything.

19 All you could do was eat the earth. Later on, in the hangars, they

20 engaged in torture again, because a guard would enter and he says, "I want

21 you to collect up 5.000 marks." And how could you collect 5.000 marks?

22 Because the people were arrested, but they gave what money they had to

23 save someone's head.

24 Q. These belongings, these valuables that were taken from you at the

25 entrance, were they given back to you when you left Dretelj?

1 A. No.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did anybody take anything from

3 you personally that you had on you?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two hundred German marks; my medical

7 booklet which proved that I was a minor, because I didn't have any other

8 ID; and a bus ticket from Stolac to Capljina, because I was about to

9 finish school in Capljina. It was a monthly bus pass.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So when you arrived, you're

11 telling us that you had 200 German marks on you, and they took that away

12 from you; is that right?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How did a minor happen to have

15 200 Deutschmarks on him?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I lived fairly well. I mean,

17 my family and I, we had some money. Now, when we separated, when we were

18 separated and when I went to the camp, I had 200 German marks sewn into my

19 clothing so I would have some money to my food, some bread. And my mother

20 had that, and my father had that, and my sister and my grandparents.

21 We divided up what money we had so that if we never got together

22 again this money would allow us to survive for about ten days or so. And

23 I don't think 200 German marks was a great deal of money then, and it

24 isn't a great deal now, at least not as far as I'm concerned.

25 MS. EGELS:

1 Q. Witness CM, could I ask you to turn to Exhibit number 5948?

2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: May I add a question on this exhibit. On this

3 exhibit, it is stated that every week there was a bath for the detainees.

4 Did you have a bath once a week?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Dretelj for the space of 48 days

6 that I was there, they hosed us down once with a fire extinguisher. So if

7 somebody didn't like me, some of the guards that did this hosing down, he

8 would rig up the hose so that the 100 of us that went out onto the pista

9 naked, at least 50 would fall down because they didn't have the strength

10 to stand up under the pressure of the hose; and then they would play

11 around with us. There was no soap, so in the space of 48 days it only

12 happened to be once. While I was there, I just saw this water cistern

13 once with the water.

14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

15 MS. EGELS:

16 Q. Witness, document 5948. In your statement, you refer to your

17 detention in Gabela from the 28th of September until the 15th of December,

18 1993, and you refer top the living conditions in Gabela. This document is

19 a sanitary report dated the 19th of October, 1993, that is signed by the

20 commander of the health section of the HVO. Do you remember a visit by

21 this doctor or by any HVO doctor to inspect the living conditions in

22 Gabela at that period?

23 A. While I was in Gabela, not a single doctor came to the hangar we

24 were put up in. Now, in the hangar, there were people who had gone to a

25 secondary medical school, who were one or two years older than me, and

1 they -- there was some Bosniaks who had some tablets on them, like

2 Paracetamol or something like that. But as to physical medical

3 examinations by doctors, no, certainly not.

4 And it says here that there was no bathing for a month. That's

5 true. As I said, for the 48 days that I spent there, I only had -- I

6 could only wash once. So we had no water at all. And when the water

7 truck would turn up, well, you were either thirsty or you had to pay the

8 guard to bring you some water, or you had a little drop here and there but

9 that was it.

10 And there was a lot of sickness around and people suffering from

11 heart conditions. Very sick people. And the 40 people from Dretelj were

12 transferred to hanger number four in Gabela, and they were put up with us.

13 They were barely alive. They needed assistance, but there was nobody

14 there to provide it.

15 As for the hygiene conditions, all of us 400 people suffered from

16 lice. How are you going to translate this, I don't know, but they were

17 lice. We had lice in our heads and all over our body. And we couldn't

18 get rid of these fleas and lice, and then the warden of the camp came by

19 and ordered that our heads be shaved as if we could get rid of the lice

20 and fleas that way.

21 We did have our haircut, but no -- it didn't get rid of the lice

22 or fleas. So it was a silent death. And they laughed at us when we had

23 our heads shaved.

24 Q. In this --

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment. In October, were

1 you still in detention?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I was in detention from the

3 2nd of August to the 22nd of March.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In this document that it is a

5 report by a sanitary inspection conducted in Gabela, signed by a doctor, a

6 physician, now, a priori. Let me say that it was somebody who took an

7 oath. Now, I read the following sentence in that report: "The detainees

8 received two hot meals a day which were cooked in Bosansinovic [phoen],

9 and all the staff who had contact with food had previously been examined

10 bacteriologically." Now, this doctor seems to be saying that you were

11 given two hot meals a day. Is that true or not? Because that would mean

12 that the doctor is lying.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's not up to me to assess a

14 doctor's ethics on whether he's telling the truth or not. I know how

15 things were in reality.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but with regard to the hot

17 meals.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our meals were just some food that

19 the soldiers had eaten in the canteen with a little water added. Yes. It

20 was hot, but it was water -- watery. And the dishes that we were given

21 were never washed. Also, the toilets, we didn't have any in hangar number

22 four. We had to defecate in tin pales and then they were taken out.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You, yourself, were you ever

24 visited, examined by a doctor?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And while you were detained you

2 never fell ill?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

4 JUDGE PRANDLER: I apologise to Ms. Egels for interrupting you

5 again. I would like to come back to the statement given by the witness,

6 and, therefore, probably I may ask to -- to have the -- if we could go to

7 private session now.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move into private session.

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16 [Open session]

17 MS. EGELS:

18 Q. So, Witness, to go back to --

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

20 MS. EGELS:

21 Q. Witness, to go back to document number 5948, which is the sanitary

22 report. You already gave us a lot of information. I just wanted one or

23 two further explanations.

24 In this document, it is also stated that latrines were provided

25 and regularly disinfected. Was that the case in Gabela? In other words,

1 was that what you experienced on the ground?

2 A. No. No. In Gabela, at least in the building I was in, in

3 building number four there was no external toilet; and disinfection, that

4 was never done. No one ever disinfected anything. The toilets -- well,

5 perhaps the other hangars had toilets, but I can't tell you anything about

6 things I myself did not see.

7 Q. And what about the compound being regularly cleaned at that time?

8 Is that also something you experienced? The full compound.

9 A. Some of us prisoners would have to take the buckets out, the

10 buckets with excrement and urine, in order to empty the buckets outside.

11 That was all the cleaning there was.

12 As far as cleaning buildings is concerned, no, there was none of

13 that. We could only imagine these things, try to clean ourselves of the

14 lice and fleas.

15 Q. Witness, can I ask you now to turn to Exhibit number 7184. In

16 your statement, you refer to your transfer from Gabela to Heliodrom. And

17 yesterday during proofing, and you confirmed it today, you specified that

18 that transfer took place on the 15th of December, 1993.

19 This document is a report dated the 15th of December, 1993, by the

20 head of the crime investigations section of the military police in

21 Capljina. Can I ask you to take a look at paragraph two, page 1 of the

22 Bosnian version, which is paragraph two, page 1 and paragraph one, page 2

23 of the English version.

24 Is this what you experienced, what is described in this paragraph?

25 A. Yes. The 15th of December, soldiers -- prisoners were transferred

1 from Gabela to the Heliodrom, yes.

2 Q. Were you part of one of these two groups that was transferred that

3 day and that is referred to in this document?

4 A. Yes. I was in the last group that arrived about 2000 hours at the

5 Heliodrom.

6 Q. Can I ask you now to return to Exhibit number 7212, please.

7 Again, talking about your transfer to Heliodrom on the 15th --

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. In document

9 7144 -- 184, 7184, there are two lists, 406 and 401. POWs are mentioned.

10 You yourself were a POW. What was your status?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know how to put

12 this. I couldn't have been a POW, as I wasn't even fit for military

13 service. I didn't have a uniform. I didn't have a rifle. I was a

14 civilian. I was there on the basis of some sort of rules or some

15 convention that others must have been familiar with, but I don't know what

16 it was.

17 MS. EGELS:

18 Q. Can I ask you, Witness CM, to turn to Exhibit number 7184. Sorry,

19 7212. 7212.

20 This is a report by Stanko Bozic, dated on the 16th of December,

21 1993. Can I ask you to take a look at paragraph 1, item one and two;

22 page 1 of both the Bosnian and English version. Is this what you

23 experienced on the ground? Does this refer to what you experienced on the

24 ground on the 15th of December, 1993?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Can I ask you now to turn to Exhibit number 8905. In your

2 statement, you referred to the hamlets of Djulic and Kaplan. I would like

3 you to turn to the third page of this document, and this page bears three

4 photographs accompanied by red stamped numbers. Do you recognise the

5 location under number 0104-6487 and 6488? These are the two first

6 photographs on that page.

7 A. Yes. This is my plate of birth.

8 MS. EGELS: Your Honour, maybe we can go into private session to

9 get more information.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session.

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7 [Open session]

8 --- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed. Ms.

10 Egels, during the 60 [as interpreted] minutes, have you found an answer to

11 my question about the document? Yes, 30 minutes.

12 MS. EGELS: Well, it looked like 60, Your Honour. Yes. I found

13 some answers to your question, indeed. As I was telling before, this

14 document bears the Croatian stamp -- state archives stamp, and this is

15 where I went to look for it. This list is part of a complete binder that

16 is entitled, "Dretelj, List of Prisoners, Miscellaneous," and this binder

17 was seized from the Croatian state archives pursuant to an order numbered

18 587, dated August, 2000.

19 The binder itself bears the number 111B in 2000, and 9495. And

20 all the materials that were in at that binder, the ones that were dated,

21 were all dated July and August of 1993. Now, that binder is part of

22 larger collection of binders which are military police records, and the

23 section of the HVO military police records where this binder was found is

24 entitled, "Miscellaneous Units and Subjects."

25 So, therefore, although the author of that specific document is

1 unknown, all the available information we have in our database indicates

2 that this list was in the possession of the military police and was

3 created in the summer or the early fall of 1993.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for providing those

5 precisions.

6 Very well. The Defence has one and a half hours. Try and get

7 through quickly, because we have another witness waiting.

8 Mr. Karnavas.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you. Good morning, Mr. President. Good

10 morning, Your Honours. We have no questions. At some point, I don't want

11 to take up the time now, perhaps after this witness's finishes, I would

12 like to make some observations on how we could proceed a little more

13 efficiently with these 92 ter witnesses. I believe the entire direct

14 could have been done in about 15 minutes.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Well, we're going to

16 wait impatiently for what you're going to tell us in a matter that is

17 close to our heart.

18 Ms. Tomasegovic.

19 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to follow on from

20 what Ms. Egels has just said with respect to this document. We didn't see

21 that whole binder; and on the list that was accessible to us, it doesn't

22 say the military police anywhere as a title or any stamp or anything else

23 from which we could see it was a document compiled by the military police.

24 So I don't know. Perhaps it says military police on some binder.

25 I don't know where Ms. Egels drew the conclusion that it was actually a

1 document of the military police.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Next Defence counsel.

3 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. It's my

4 turn; and according to the distribution of time, I would have 15 minutes.

5 But I think I'll need a little more time, and the other Defence teams

6 still cannot say how much they will need. So I'll adhere to that time

7 limit. But when my time expires, I would just like to wind up with a

8 topic that I'd like to discuss with the witness.

9 Cross-examination by Ms. Nozica:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

11 A. Good morning.

12 Q. I think we can stay in open session because I'm not going to

13 mention anything that might disclose the witness's identity.

14 May we move straight away to Exhibit P 05948 that was shown to you

15 by the Prosecution, and you can find it in your own binder. It is an

16 exhibit --

17 A. Can you repeat the number, please?

18 Q. P 05948. I have provided exhibits for the Court, but this is a

19 different exhibit prepared for this witness and which the Prosecutor is

20 going to tender. We've already seen the document. It was shown to the

21 witness.

22 Have you found it, Witness? You also have it on e-court.

23 Now, you provided quite a number of answers linked to the

24 document. I'd just like focus your attention on a few points, and I'm

25 sure you will try to help me out. In trying to assess what the HVO, the

1 Department of Health endeavoured to do in Gabela during the period in

2 which you were incarcerated there. From this exhibit, can we confirm,

3 looking at the second sentence, that the purpose of the supervision was to

4 control the implementation of an order by the Defence Department, the

5 Health Sector, 02/5/1/603, of the 28th of September, 1993.

6 And it related to the application of international humanitarian

7 law and war law in connection with the prevention -- in the context of

8 prevention of skin and communicable diseases and improvement of health of

9 inmates of the centre for preventive isolation and detainees in the

10 detention centre. Is that what it says there?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, from this document, as we have seen, we can draw the

13 conclusion, can we not, that there was some kind of order dated the 28th

14 of September, 1993? Is that right?

15 A. Well, according to this piece of paper, yes.

16 Q. I'm asking you on the basis of the paper.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. If I ask you what was going on in reality, you can tell me without

19 any problems.

20 Now, the next sentence begins as follows: "A medical team,

21 composed of two physicians, three paramedics, and a medical technician in

22 charge of preventive medical protection, is in charge of sanitary care

23 measures in the above-mentioned centre."

24 Is that what it says here?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Can we look at the very bottom of the page now where it says,

2 "Pursuant to a statement that there was no bathing for a month; and since

3 winter is coming up and there is no water in the mentioned locality, this

4 problem will be even more marked which could have highly negative effects

5 in the sense of epidemics of skin and communicable diseases," and then we

6 have some medical terms.

7 Is that exactly what you yourself said? And we're talking about

8 19th of October, 1993. You arrived in Gabela on the 27th of September,

9 did you not?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then the inmates did not have a bath for a month; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was it also true that there was no hot water?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. Now, look at the last sentence. It says, "No list has

17 been made of inmates to be put on a more nutritious diet or of those

18 suffering from chronic diseases."

19 Now, you, yourself, said that many inmates did not have access to

20 the medical centre or outpatients' clinic. So could this then be true and

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can we go on to page 2. Take a look at this proposal of measures.

24 We have an enumeration of what has not been done. I don't have the time

25 to go through each of these bullet points, and I'm sure that you and I

1 would agree that this report in actual fact contains what the reality

2 was. But it says, "Act upon our order, again, of the 28th of September,

3 and nominate a doctor."

4 Then it says: "Increase the clothing supply. Increase the

5 quantity of crockery, cutlery, and cleaning agents for their regular

6 washing."

7 So does this demand reflect the situation you told us about, that

8 there was no washing of utensils?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Then it says: "Disinfect the blankets after mechanical cleaning."

11 You said that there were not enough blankets to go around.

12 A. No.

13 Q. You can say that there weren't enough blankets in the room you

14 were in, but you can't talk about the other rooms?

15 A. No.

16 Q. "Keep medical records, because case history are medical documents

17 of a lasting value." Can we conclude from this that nobody kept case

18 histories and case history records?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Then it goes on to say: "Ensure a sufficient quantity of medical

21 supplies for health care of the inmates." Was that one of the requests?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Then it says: "Make lists of inmates according to their chronic

24 diseases, nourishment status, and undertake measures to objectively assess

25 changes in the nourishment level -- nutritional level."

1 So this was sent to the president of the HR HB, the assistant of

2 the Department for Health, the Main Staff of the health brigade as it says

3 here. So does that mean that the Health Sector of the Defence Department

4 assessed the situation on the ground; and on the basis of that, gave these

5 following guidelines?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So does this reflect the realistic needs of the inmates as you saw

8 them when you were there? Do you understand what I mean? What I mean to

9 say is all these requests are things that were lacking and needed to be

10 done; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, I want to ask you one thing, and it's important. You said

13 that while there was one camp inmate the situation was bad; but when the

14 next warden took up his post, the situation improved. So can we conclude

15 that it depended on the warden of the centre or prison, that everything

16 depended on him? Is that your experience, that things improved when the

17 warden was changed?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, you were also shown, in the Prosecution binder, another

20 report, and let's see what this Defence Department and its health centre

21 actually did on the ground while you were there. Sir, I don't deny or

22 challenge anything that you say you experienced and that you described to

23 us. All I want to do is look at these documents together with you. And

24 one of these documents were presented to you by the Prosecutor, but there

25 are many other documents which speak of the effort and care made by the

1 Health Sector.

2 So the next document that I'd like you to have a look at, and it's

3 in your binder and I'd like to have it on e-court. It is P 05485.

4 P 05485 is the next document, and it's written correctly in the

5 transcript.

6 This is another report of sanitary and hygiene control of the

7 centre for prevention of diseases dated the 29th of September, 1993. The

8 first was the 19th of October. We'll now look at this report dating back

9 to September.

10 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] And I'd like to inform the Court that

11 Mr. Praljak's Defence has given me more time. So I still have, according

12 to my calculations, 12 -- until quarter to 12.00, and I will try to be as

13 efficient as possible.

14 Q. This is for Gabela and to look at the second paragraph where it

15 says, "When the locality was toured, an analysis was provided by the

16 assistant head of the defence department as of the 28th of September,

17 1993."

18 Now, look at the middle of that page where it says, "The cutlery

19 and utensils are lacking, which can lead to intestinal diseases."

20 And then toward the end, it says, "When an on-site inspection was

21 conducted, several persons suffering from malnutrition, serious

22 malnutrition were observed."

23 Is that what you said as well in your statement and testimony, and

24 does it correspond to the situation in Gabela that you described?

25 A. There weren't a few, several. We were all badly malnourished; all

1 of us inmates.

2 Q. All right. Maybe that was the observation of somebody who hadn't

3 seen you before, because most of you lost a great deal of weight. And you

4 told us just how much you lost.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I assume that you were the same build and weight that you are now

7 before you were incarcerated. So if somebody saw you with that number of

8 kilometres -- kilogrammes less, you might have looked quite nourished to

9 somebody who didn't know how much you weighed before.

10 A. Well, that's not important. The vital thing is that -- the

11 important thing is that I lost 30-odd kilogrammes.

12 Q. Well, your kilogrammes are your problem, but I was just

13 wondering --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers kindly be asked to slow down.

15 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

16 Q. I'd like to continue and look at the Health Sector and the efforts

17 made.

18 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Ms. Nozica.

19 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I have been cautioned.

20 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm not quite sure whether I've understood you

21 correctly. This witness, within a short time, due to very critical

22 conditions of detention, lost 30 kilo. And you tell him that his weight

23 is his own problem? Isn't that a bit strange? Because he did not lose

24 weight of his own will; but for all we know, because he was locked up and

25 not properly nourished. So it's a bit difficult to say that it's his own

1 problem, isn't it? I'm referring to page 47, the second line.

2 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, I'd

3 like to help you to understand this issue. My colleague's question wasn't

4 fully translated, and it wasn't recorded in the transcript. Only the part

5 that says that your kilogrammes are your problem was translated, but then

6 there was an explanation.

7 But when in your statement, you start referring to your own kilos,

8 then that is an issue that is of importance in this case, which is why I'm

9 asking you this question about your kilos. That's why -- he was the first

10 person. He mentioned his kilos, initially.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Counsel Nozica, please.

12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you for that explanation.

13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are speaking at such a great

14 speed that it's impossible to get every word in if they continue at that

15 rate.

16 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you to my colleague. I'd like

17 to also point out that I can't form the transcript and do what I'm doing

18 at the same time. But I would like to point out that I never said that

19 the witness's kilos were his problem. That's what the witness himself

20 said, which is why I have pursued the issue.

21 Let's move often. I have been warned to slow down, and I will try

22 to do so.

23 Q. Let's look at the document on the screen, 2D 00134. Could the

24 usher give this copy to the witness. It might make it easier for him, and

25 we'll be able to move on more rapidly.

1 You have numbers in the margin, but you can also have a look at

2 the screen, whatever you find easiest.

3 This is the decision dated the 28th of September; a decision that

4 those other orders refer to. Let's just have a look at the objective.

5 Let's see what was to be done as part of the inspections conducted if

6 Gabela, Dretelj, and the Heliodrom. Let's have a look at item 1, please.

7 Item 1 says, "In all the above-mentioned centres, you should

8 establish a -- toilets, sanitary locations for medical assistance, engage

9 prisoners in the centre, staff; and if such staff is lacking, engage

10 professionals from the medical services of brigades and from local health

11 clinics."

12 So it says establish these medical centres. Is that what it says?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I'll now pass through some other items.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a follow-up question that

16 concerns this paragraph.

17 Sir, it seems to me that you said that you arrived there on the

18 27th of September, and you were placed in a cell in which there were 40

19 other people. We saw the photograph, and you said there were

20 intellectuals and doctors. Can you confirm that when you arrived there,

21 there were doctors in the place you were held in for a month?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the statement you have

23 mentioned, the testimony about 40 people, doctors and intellectuals, that

24 concerned the solitary cell and the solitary confinement cell. It didn't

25 refer to this place, and these doctors had the same treatment as I did.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But in the isolation

2 cell that you were placed in, it was on the 27th of September.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The solitary confinement cell was in

4 Dretelj. That was in Dretelj, not in Gabela. But there were people in

5 hangar number 4 with me.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's remain with Dretelj.

7 There were doctors in the solitary confinement cell with you. We had this

8 order before us. Were doctors supposed to be employed to take care of

9 everyone? As far as you know, were the doctors who were in the solitary

10 confinement cell designated as people who were supposed to take care of

11 the detainees?

12 That's what the order says. It says employ or engage

13 professionals. So as far as you know, the doctors who were with you, did

14 they assist the detainees medically? Were they allowed to leave the cell

15 to provide them with medical assistance?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. They were treated just as we

17 were.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's what I wanted to check.

19 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 Q. Who worked in the clinic, if you ever had the opportunity of

21 observing that? You mentioned a clinic, and you said under the most

22 serious cases together. Who worked there, do you know that?

23 A. I never went to the clinic.

24 Q. So you don't know.

25 A. No.

1 Q. Very well. Let's have a look at item 3. There is an item 3 in

2 the document. It's not very visible, but I'm read out what it says. It

3 says, "Designate a professional to take preventive medical measures and to

4 continue -- and continually control the work of that person." That's what

5 it says?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And then 6, it says, "Survey the prisoners to see how they're

8 nourished, and those who are malnourished should be provided with extra

9 rations." Is that what it says?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Next item, "Ensure that there is enough crockery and cutlery in

12 order to prevent diseases of the intestines." Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And let's have a look at item 10 on the next page. "Ensure that

15 the prisoners in the centre have a sufficient amount of footwear, clothes,

16 items for their personal hygiene, and a sufficient amount of blankets."

17 Let's have a look at the last item, number 17. "All the

18 above-mentioned items should be taken to be matters of priority. If

19 anything is unclear, consult the Defence Department and the health

20 sector."

21 So it says that this is a matter of priority, and it's a permanent

22 task. It was assigned by the Brigadier Ivan Bagaric, the assistant for

23 health.

24 Sir, the date is the 28th of September, 1993, on this document.

25 And can we draw the conclusion, on the basis of this document, that there

1 was a health department that issued an order, decided on what the actual

2 state in Gabela was, and decided on what should be done in order to

3 improve the situation there?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Let's have a look at another document. I want to show this to you

6 because we know that on the 5th of July, 1993, you were a free man; is

7 that correct?

8 A. That's -- I was hiding. I was hiding. I wasn't free.

9 Q. All right. You were in hiding, but you were free.

10 A. If you can put it that way, yes.

11 Q. Very well. Let's have a look at P 03197. You have it in my

12 binder. It will also appear on the screen. Have you found it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. While waiting for it to appear on the screen, it's an order from

15 the commander of the Jug centre, Nedeljko Obradovic. I just want to show

16 you that in this order, the objective is to take medical care of the

17 inmates. It's dated the 5th of July, 1993, that's when the order was

18 issued. And it says that a medical commission should be established to

19 take care of the inmates to inspect the prisoners, and provide them with

20 medical assistance.

21 This concerns Gabela, Dretelj, and the Heliodrom in Mostar. The

22 following is supposed to be done: "Having examined the prisoners, those

23 who were seriously ill and those you believe should be released or

24 provided with medical care, for such prisoners you should send a written

25 request to me personally, a written request for their medical treatment."

1 Item 2, it says, "The chief of the medical service of the 1st and

2 3rd HVO Brigade is responsible to me for carrying out this order."

3 We can see an order, and your life would have been a lot easier,

4 your life and the life of other inmates, had it been respected. Is that

5 what we can conclude?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. On the basis of the order?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, when you arrived at the

10 various places you were detained, Dretelj, Gabela, Heliodrom, was there an

11 examination, a medical examination that was performed on you, as this

12 order seems to indicate? A few hours after your arrival at these places,

13 were you examined by a doctor?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as you know, were there

16 other prisoners who were with you and who were subject to medical

17 examinations?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as of the 2nd of August

19 onwards, which is when I arrived in the camp, no, there were no such

20 prisoners who had been examined. But as to what happened before, I don't

21 know.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Counsel Nozica.

23 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. I wanted to have a look at two other orders. The next one is 2D

25 00278? Have you found it? 2D 00278. You have it in the binder. It's

1 just one page. I was following the Prosecution, so we were examining

2 subsequent documents, but this is dated the 28th of August, and it says,.

3 "The Health Department and the Defence Department," and it says,

4 "After having carried out an on-site investigation on the 17th," or,

5 rather, I think it's the 19th and 26th of August, 1993, or the 18th.

6 That's what it says in the translation. It says, "with regard to

7 preventing skin disease and contagious diseases in Gabela and Dretelj.

8 And in order to take continual measures..." -- is there a problem? We

9 still can't see the document on the screen. 2D 00278. I'd like it to be

10 possible for everyone else to see the document. I have a hard copy for

11 the ELMO if we can't see it on the screen?

12 THE REGISTRAR: Apparently, it was not released in e-court. We

13 cannot view it.

14 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I have the document. I've been

15 informed that we have it in e-court, but I have a hard copy just in case.

16 Q. We can see that on the 28th of August, the order says under

17 item 1, "Twice a week, actively control the work of medical personnel who

18 have been arrested and keep precise evidence about this."

19 Let's have a look at item 5. "Prisoners who need specialist

20 assistance should be provided with such treatment."

21 On the 28th of August this order was issued; and as you yourself

22 say, it wasn't implemented.

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. You told Judge Antonetti that you were never examined, you or

25 anyone else.

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. While you were there, were the premises you were kept in

3 disinfected? Was anything cleaned? Was anything done in the place that

4 you were kept in in Gabela?

5 A. Not in Gabela, but in Heliodrom, yes.

6 Q. Let's have a look at 2D 00131. The witness has this document. We

7 can place it on the ELMO immediately.

8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, a purely technical matter regarding

9 the previous document which you have quoted from. That is 2D 00278. The

10 first point is, in my copy, as you have said it. Point number 5, however,

11 does not speak in my copy of prisoners who need special care, but it

12 says, "To equip ambulances with material resources for providing a full

13 volume of general medical services." I think it is number 6 that you were

14 referring to, according to my document.

15 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you have a look at

16 the original - you have it before you on the screen - you can see the

17 numbers are 1, 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5. Those are the items in the original. So

18 they have been erroneously numbered.

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Yes. And the translation has improved it, which

20 has created the misunderstanding. Thank you.

21 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

22 Q. Let's have a look at 2D 00131. You can place it on the ELMO.

23 So on the 26th of November, isn't that correct, according to what

24 you said in your statement, you were still in Gabela. 1993 is the year

25 we're talking about.

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And on the 26th of November -- well, this order in item 1 also

3 says, "Establish medical clinics."

4 Item 10, "Provide prisoners in the centre with sufficient

5 clothing."

6 Item 11, "All HVO members should examine the prisoners who are

7 preparing food."

8 Then 14, it says, "In order to organise the work of the medical

9 clinics and in order to carry out the above-mentioned items, the chiefs of

10 the medical departments in HVO brigades and the chiefs of the

11 above-mentioned centres will be held responsible."

12 Isn't that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I won't go on. But when we examine all these documents drafted by

15 the Defence Department and the Health Sector and the Defence Department,

16 would you agree that the Health Sector issued orders and reports and

17 objectively examined the situation and tried to take such steps in order

18 to improve the situation? Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Very well. Thank you.

21 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Now for the next

23 Defence team.

24 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence of General

25 Praljak has no questions. Thank you.

1 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

2 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, I have a few questions for you, short

4 ones, to clarify certain events before you were arrested. My questions

5 will be linked to either your written statement or to your testimony

6 today.

7 You told us today that on the 1st of July, 1993, the arrests

8 started of the Muslim Bosniak people, as you put it. So because of the

9 word "people," I'm going to ask you the following: On the 1st of July,

10 was disarming of Muslims, who were in the HVO, going on and the arrest of

11 military-able men? Would you agree with me there, that on the 1st of July

12 military-able men started to be arrested, Muslims?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When you told us about persons under the age of 15 --

15 A. I said under the age of 18. I said there were some people who

16 were 15 or 16, but I didn't say under the age of 15.

17 Q. Did you say they were younger people?

18 A. Not under the age of 15.

19 Q. All right. So 15 onwards. Pursuant to the regulations of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time, do you know what was the -- what the age

21 limit was for a person to be considered a military conscript or military

22 able?

23 A. I was 17 then, so I didn't know then. Now, since I'm employed, I

24 know what the situation is like.

25 Q. Could you tell us?

1 A. Military able means from the ages of 18 to 60, but in war

2 conditions from 18 to 65.

3 Q. Now, what about young men or boys become military conscripts?

4 A. At age 17.

5 Q. Are you sure?

6 A. That was what the situation was like in recent years. The age was

7 17.

8 Q. If I tell you that pursuant to regulations in Bosnia-Herzegovina

9 during the material time that we're discussing, which is 1993, that 15

10 years of age was the borderline for somebody to be considered military

11 able, a military-able man. Do you have any knowledge of that, that the

12 age was 15?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Now, since you say that according to existing regulations, the

15 ones you know about, that minors are categories -- come under the category

16 of military able, would it be logical to conclude that persons considered

17 military conscripts are -- that the same conduct is applied --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please. Microphone.

19 Microphone for the Judge, please.

20 JUDGE PRANDLER: I make always the same mistake, so I repeat

21 again. First of all, let me -- let me apologise to you, Ms. Alaburic, for

22 taking the floor and interrupting you.

23 My question is as follows: We have already talked about the

24 military service issue here several times, and I have also asked the

25 Defence to produce once to us a kind of legal provisions in force at that

1 time, legal provisions either from the former Yugoslav republic or from

2 Bosnia and Herzegovina which actually contain -- which would have

3 contained the rules, related rules, applicable rules concerning the ages,

4 let's say 15 or 16 or whatever, because we have heard conflicting views

5 and conflicting information about these -- these differences.

6 Therefore, I believe it would be good for all of us to have these

7 rules. Once we have talked about it also with Mr. Kovacic and for

8 colleagues around -- around the courtroom. So therefore, I believe that

9 it would be good for once and for all to receive the authentic information

10 what rules had been applicable in 1992, 1993 in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11 Thank you.

12 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission

13 might I remind you that the regulations on defence and the armed forces

14 enacted by the authorities of Herceg-Bosna, we received through witness

15 Tomljanovich; and we discussed them, the issue, within these proceedings.

16 Now, as the regulations of Bosnia-Herzegovina are concerned, I

17 should like to remind you that the bill having force of law on the defence

18 of the Republic of Herceg-Bosna, I showed this to the Court through

19 Witness CE, this decree law on -- in November, 2006, 26th, in fact, and

20 that we discussed Article 51 in that regard. And I'm -- I've just

21 mentioned the name of that article according to my memory. I hope it's

22 right. But it regulates the years of men and women, how old -- women and

23 men of what age are considered to be military conscripts.

24 So I thought when I asked the question of 15 years, I was not

25 broaching a new topic and, therefore, that I didn't need to show the

1 regulations again.

2 JUDGE PRANDLER: Thank you.

3 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I'll continue then.

4 Q. Witness, you told us, to the best of your knowledge, nobody was

5 arrested who was Your Honour the age of 15; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You also told us that there were some people who were arrested who

8 were older than 60.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you give us a few names of persons who were over the age of

11 60?

12 (redacted). Well, I can remember those two names

13 because they were incarcerated on the same day that I was. I can't for

14 the moment remember the others.

15 Q. Yes. We'll check out their dates of birth later on.

16 Now, what I'd like to ask you is this: Something about your

17 hiding --

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment. We were in open

19 session then. So, Madam Registrar, issue an order to strike the two names

20 on line 19, page 59, from the record, please.

21 Continue.

22 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. So the time preceding the time you gave yourself up to the HVO,

24 you told us, and I'll summarise this, that as of the 1st of July, you were

25 in hiding for 11 days in a house that was still under construction; and

1 that on the 13th, when a new wave of arrests started, you took to the

2 woods and went into hiding there where you spent three days; after that,

3 you returned to the village, and you hid in the village for 16 days; and

4 on the 2nd of August, you gave yourself up. Is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 (redacted)

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11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have to go into private

12 session. There were a whole lot of names mentioned there. I hope you're

13 not doing it intentionally, Counsel.

14 Let's go into private session.

15 [Private session]

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3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

4 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 6th day

5 of December, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.

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