1 Thursday, 22 February 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness enters court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call
7 the case number, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. President. Case
9 number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 I would like to greet everyone present and I will now immediately
12 give the floor to the registrar for IC numbers.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Several parties have submitted lists of documents
14 to be tendered through Witness DD. The list submitted by the OTP shall be
15 given Exhibit number IC 439. The list submitted by 1D shall be given
16 Exhibit number IC 440. The list ship submitted by 2D shall be given
17 Exhibit number IC 441, and the list submitted by 5D shall be given Exhibit
18 number IC 442. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 There is an oral decision I would like to read out which grants
21 the request for an extension of time limit. On the 21st of February,
22 2007, the Chamber was provided with two motions requesting extension of
23 the time limit provided for in Rule 126 bis in the Rules of Procedure and
24 Evidence. The motion concerned filing requests -- filing responses to a
25 number motions that are pending before the Chamber. The Prosecution has
1 requested an extension of the time limit to respond to the Defence motion
2 that concerns the various forms of responsibility alleged in the
3 indictment. The motion was filed on the 12th of February, 2007.
4 The Trial Chamber hereby grants this request, and the time limit
5 shall be extended until the 7th of March, 2007. The Defence requested an
6 extension of time limit in order to respond to three Prosecution motions.
7 The two motions that concern the Jablanica municipality filed on the 15th
8 of February, 2007, and a motion that concerns Vares municipality filed on
9 the 19th of February, 2007.
10 The Defence has requested an extension of the time limit to
11 respond to these three motions and would like the time limit to be
12 extended until the 19th of March, 2007. The Chamber hereby decides to
13 partially grant this request and grants an extension of the time limit up
14 until the 12th of March, 2007.
15 The Prosecution has another hour and 10 minutes. It's now 2.20.
16 The Prosecution has the floor for an hour and 10 minutes.
17 MR. PORYVAEV: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
18 WITNESS: MUSTAFA HADROVIC [Resumed]
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 Examination by Mr. Poryvaev:
21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Hadrovic.
22 A. Good afternoon.
23 Q. Let's continue our job. I must repeat and ask you again, just
24 keep straight on my questions. Only in such a way could we cope with our
25 job today. Try not to comment and elaborate your responses if it's not
1 absolutely necessary.
2 Mr. Hadrovic, yesterday, this is page 56, lines 2, 3 of the
3 transcript, you testified that you had been arrested for the second time
4 and again taken to Heliodrom. Please tell me, when did it happen? When
5 were you arrested for the second time?
6 A. I was arrested for the second time in the hospital, because I was
7 there in the neurology department. They came to get me that day.
8 Selentrovic [phoen] saw me and he wanted to take me away on that day. He
9 didn't because and Dr. Begic wouldn't let him. In the evening Miro
10 Kolobara and another young man arrived, and that evening at 11.30 they
11 took me to the Heliodrom.
12 Q. What date? The date, please.
13 A. It was in June, on the 25th or the 26th. I don't know the exact
14 date, but that's the approximate date. I have a medical certificate
15 that in fact states when I was taken away. I do have this certificate
16 on me because later on I obtained it before I was to come here to the
18 Q. And were you placed in Heliodrom in some common hole with other
20 A. No, I wasn't. At that time I was taken to solitary confinement in
21 the Heliodrom complex. I was beaten up there and I remained in that cell
22 for a hundred and -- days. I spent 147 days plus the other days. That
23 would amount to about 160 days in solitary confinement at the Heliodrom.
24 When they took me to the Heliodrom that evening, Kolobara from the
25 Convicts Battalion waited for me -- Miro Marijanovic waited for me and
1 Jako [phoen] Tomic, Ante Buhovac, and others.
2 Q. You have already mentioned these names, Buhovac, Marjanovic. What
3 kind of uniform were they wearing? Do you remember?
4 A. Yes. They had uniforms with these white belts on them. I think
5 this was the military police central prison. It was under the control of
6 the military police.
7 Q. Did they have any insignia of the military police on their sleeves
8 or somewhere else?
9 A. Yes, the HVO police.
10 Q. Did you know these people - I mean Marjanovic and Ante Buhovac -
12 A. Yes, I knew them well. I knew many of those who were down there.
13 I knew them because we spent the first few days together in the joint
14 police complex that acted against the aggressor, but unfortunately later
15 on there were differences based on uniforms and nationalities.
16 Q. How many solitary cells were there in the Heliodrom complex? Did
17 you see it? Could you tell us now?
18 A. Yes. I saw that very well, too, and I saw all of them, because I
19 had to clean the corridors as ordered. In the part that I was in, there
20 was a large metal door. In one part there were four. You then go through
21 another passage and there were another four isolation cells there, and on
22 the other side there were also four isolation cells and there was a large
23 room and a kitchen in another area. But I could never gain access to the
24 kitchen because they brought food to our cells.
25 Q. Were you alone in a solitary cell from the very beginning? And
1 how long, if you were?
2 A. When they took me down that day after I had been beaten up badly,
3 I spent a lot of time in that solitary confinement cell. Cibo was next to
4 my cell. He worked for a certain water supply company and there were
5 other prisoners near me, Zilic. Then there was Mirsad Mahmutcehajic.
6 There was Vlado Fink and others. I could tell you all of their names and
7 tell you which cells they were in, but later they kept 12 of us in one
8 cell, and we had to relieve ourselves in a biscuit tin.
9 Q. I will ask you about conditions in the solitary cells a little bit
11 But now I would like witness to be shown Exhibit P 05077.
12 Please open your binder on the relevant number. Page 2 will be in
13 the original language. Did you find the document?
14 A. Yes, I found the document.
15 Q. This is a list -- for the record, this is a list of detainees
16 detained in solitary cells of Heliodrom, with stamp and letterhead office
17 for change of prisoners and other persons.
18 Witness, just leaf through -- leaf down this list and try to
19 recall if you remember all the people who are indicated there.
20 A. Your Honours, I can confirm and guarantee that all these people
21 live with me to this very day. I still see them, and I know each and
22 every run of them. Unfortunately, some are abroad, but I know Zilic. His
23 father is in the country, but his son is abroad. I couldn't say that
24 there's a single person that I don't know. I know each and every one of
25 them, from the first one to the last one. There are just two foreigners
1 missing in this list, and I did testify that they were there. One was
2 from Malaysia and the other one was from Germany.
3 Q. Okay. Just a moment. We see here 29 persons. Does it correspond
4 to the reality that there were 29 persons, detainees, kept in the solitary
6 A. Your Honours, in this list you just have a part that concerns
7 those in solitary confinement. That was the area we were in. Then there
8 was another part. I don't know anything about those individuals, but I
9 know certain individuals who were in the large room. That's not a
10 solitary confinement so I couldn't say it is, but there were three
11 solitary confinement cells. There was a cell beneath the stairs and
12 another one next to it, but in the big one where people from Roradorca
13 [phoen] and Jasenica were -- they were there with their children. I knew
14 some of them. I would sometimes see Katica and Jusuf. I knew them
15 because they had a house in Donja Mahala and I would see them when I
16 emptied the biscuit tin. And the ones I can see here were in my area.
17 That's when you enter the solitary confinement cell to the right.
18 Q. Mr. Hadrovic, my question is, could you explain at least to
19 yourself and to the Trial Chamber now what is your understanding why
20 personally you were kept in the solitary cell?
21 A. Your Honours, I'm not going to lie. I have no reason to lie. I
22 was taken to the solitary confinement cell for many reasons. Partly
23 because I wouldn't allow certain things to happen, concern members of the
24 HVO supported me in this. Concerned theft, the maltreatment of Serbs, et
25 cetera. I didn't want to offend anyone because he had stayed with us.
1 Your Honours, I can prove that for certain. The Serbs who are still alive
2 to this very day and I can prove that I didn't want to maltreat anybody,
3 the Bosniaks or the Croats.
4 Q. My question is now about the condition in the solitary cells, I
5 mean the quality of good water, other facilities.
6 A. Your Honours, let me tell you how much time I spent in the
7 solitary confinement cell. During that period of time when I left the
8 cell, I had lost 47 kilos. The conditions were non-existent. I can
9 provide you with just one example.
10 In the morning we received tea. We were given tea, but certain
11 people gave us tin cups, but instead of putting sugar in the cups they
12 would put salt in them.
13 The food was there when the Red Cross came and brought it, but
14 whatever remained, well, all of the detainees at the Heliodrom can tell
15 you that they took this away and they didn't allow us to eat.
16 And as far as the sleeping conditions are concerned, I had one
17 blanket and that's all. I relieved myself in a biscuit tin, and I would
18 receive one litre of water per day. So imagine what the conditions were
19 like. I won't prove this myself. The entire town, all those who were
20 there, will prove this.
21 Q. My next question -- thank you very much. My next question is did
22 you perform any kind of job while you were -- while you were detained in
23 this solitary cell?
24 A. Yes, Your Honours. Every morning I had to clean. I had to clean
25 the toilets. I had to wash my dirty clothes without soap because they
1 wouldn't provide me with any soap, and I had to clean the corridors. And
2 there was all sorts of dirt. I can prove this.
3 Q. You just told that once you were brought to Heliodrom you were
4 immediately beaten. I would like to clarify: By whom? I need the names
5 of people to beat you up at the time.
6 A. When I was taken there.
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. The notorious Miro Kolobara. In Mostar there are two Miro
9 Kolobaras. I apologise to one of them, the one who works in the post
10 office. And the other one is hiding in Siroki Brijeg. He beat me up so
11 badly. And Daka Tomic, Ante Buhovac, and Miro Marijanovic. And believe
12 it or not they beat me so badly and then tied one of my arms to the bed,
13 and I know that I woke up covered in blood. I found a piece of mirror,
14 and when I saw myself, well, I was covered in blood all over. You can see
15 the results on my head, my jaw, my nose. You can see the scars.
16 Doctors in Mostar and throughout the world, wherever I had --
17 Q. Thank you very much.
18 A. -- can also prove this.
19 Q. Did you see anyone else from your inmates being beaten, or did you
20 have any knowledge about that?
21 A. Yes, Your Honours. I saw a lot of things down there. I had
22 occasion to see how they were beating up a policeman, and I also saw an
23 action that was carried out. This is what a young man told me who was in
24 a cell with me later on. This was in July at Ortijes. They captured five
25 young men. One of them was Golos. And the leader of that group was so
1 badly beaten -- he was beaten to death. He lied -- his corpse lied in the
2 cell for three days. I cleaned the cells. I can prove this together with
3 all these people who are listed here, believe me. He died. They took him
5 Q. Thank you very much. And you just mentioned Kolobara and other
6 persons. Did any HVO soldiers or other persons who were not the Heliodrom
7 guards have access to these solitary cells?
8 A. I won't avoid this subject. Juka [phoen] was the first one to
9 have access to the solitary confinement cells. And then all of Tuta's
10 soldiers, especially if there had been victims on battlefields, they would
11 maltreat the detainees, and they'd force us to sing various songs. They
12 made us say certain terrible things when singing these songs.
13 Q. My next question: When were you registered by the Red Cross, if
14 you were registered at all?
15 A. Yes. The Red Cross registered us later. There was -- Stanko
16 Bozic issued an order. Ante Buhovac took us out, and below the building
17 of the central prison, as they called it, there was a cinema hall, and
18 across the road there was a canteen for the HVO.
19 Q. For what purposes were you taken there?
20 A. They took us there in fact so as to not report us to the Red
21 Cross, but thanks to Humackic Hajro, well, he accidentally saw us quite by
22 chance through the window, and he reported to Ms. Karolina, who was
23 responsible for the Red Cross at the time. And on the 18th -- on the 16th
24 of August, I don't know the exact date -- I have the card in fact that
25 shows when I was registered. I don't know the exact date. It was on the
1 16th or the 18th, give or take a few days. Then we were seen by chance.
2 They reported that they were hiding us, and she found us, and that's when
3 we were registered. I have that certificate from the Red Cross, so I was
4 able to go on be provided with medical treatment wherever I wanted to go.
5 And then in Sarajevo it was possible for me to have treatment because I
6 had lost a lot of weight.
7 Q. Mr. Hadrovic, you just mentioned Humackic Hajro. Was he an inmate
8 as well?
9 A. Yes. He was a killed workman. He had some sort of work down
10 there. I thanked him, and I'm still grateful to him because perhaps he
11 saved my life. I know that many who were in solitary confinement cells
12 never returned to prison, to the solitary confinement cells or to the town
13 of Mostar.
14 Q. Then my next question is: When you saw ICRC person for the first
15 time did they enter the solitary cells?
16 A. Yes, they entered the solitary confinement cells because they
17 couldn't drive us out at the time. They couldn't take us out because
18 these people arrived before we were supposed to go to that cinema hall.
19 We'd sit there from the morning until 9.00 in the evening, until the
20 Red Cross left. It all depended on the time they would actually spend
22 Q. My question is: Were you taken to the cinema hall on several
23 occasions or only ones?
24 A. They took us there on a number of occasions because the Red Cross
25 came on a number of occasions since people reported to them. I can
1 mention the people or mention the names of the people who reported to the
2 Red Cross. They're still in Mostar. There's Jovanka Hevdjija [phoen],
3 Zenic Sisic [phoen], Jadranko Jelenko [phoen], Vajdjak [phoen], a
4 professor who has now returned, and there are many who can now confirm
5 this. They are witnesses in Mostar. They can confirm certain things so
6 that the entire world can know what happened down there and can know about
7 the abuse that took place there.
8 Q. Thank you very much. I would like Witness to be shown Exhibit P
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, before we move on
11 to another document.
12 Witness, I regret the fact that I have to intervene, but there are
13 certain inevitable questions I have to put to you. There is a list
14 consisting of 29 detainees that were kept in solitary confinement. This
15 list has been signed by Mr. Pusic, who is apparently the person present
16 here in the courtroom. Mr. Pusic was in an office for the exchange of
17 prisoners and other persons. The list was established in September, on
18 the 15th of September, in fact.
19 As far as you know, were there any people in this list who were
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To be quite frank, Your Honour, I'm
22 looking at the names. Some did leave the solitary confinement cells
23 earlier, but I don't know whether they were exchanged, but some did leave
24 early year. Paruk Pirolic [phoen].
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I'll move on to
1 another subject. A minute ago you said that there were people in solitary
2 confinement cells that were no longer seen. They went missing in a
3 certain sense. Among these 29 detainees are there any individuals who
4 disappeared without a trace?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the person that was
6 killed isn't here, and I don't know anything about him. I asked about it
7 and everything. But of these people here, I just know that one has
9 As to the others, some of them left up there, and they were up
10 there --
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Which is the person who
12 disappeared and is on this list?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's a young man that's missing
14 here, and they were -- he was taken out of the station, and I had to clean
15 the station myself, and all the others --
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But my question is: Of the
17 names on the list, which have disappeared?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These people all stayed, but some of
19 them were taken out of the station before their time.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. Poryvaev.
21 MR. PORYVAEV: Thank you.
22 Q. So I would like you to open up P 04352. Find, please, this
23 number. It must be the first document in the bundle.
24 A. 4352, is that what it is?
25 Q. Have you found it? Yes. This, just for the record --
1 A. Yes, I have.
2 Q. This is a document which was submitted to Mr. Bruno Stojic by SIS
3 warden Stanko Bozic, dated on the 20th of August, 1993.
4 Mr. Hadrovic, I would like you to turn to page 1 of the document to
5 items, 1, 2, 3. Dealing with quantity of -- yes. Did you find it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you tell me if the contents of the document that the quality
8 and quantity of food needed to be improved and the conditions in solitary
9 cells were bad corresponds to the reality you just witnessed while being
10 detained in the solitary cell?
11 A. Your Honour, that's how it was for us down there. I'd rather
12 sleep with an animal than sleep down there where I slept because the
13 conditions were terrible. There was the sewer that was dripping with
14 water, so you can imagine what that was like with the sewer system like
15 that dripping into the cells.
16 Q. So --
17 A. Conditions were at zero.
18 Q. Okay. Okay. My next question is: Did you see while being
19 detained in the solitary cell any high-ranking HVO representatives who
20 were not just the Heliodrom staff members?
21 A. Yes, I did, Your Honour. When we were in the cinema hall I saw
22 Mr. Praljak walking towards the canteen down there.
23 Q. Which Praljak?
24 A. Slobodan Praljak.
25 Q. Witness, you're not answering my question. My question was if
1 they visited you in the solitary cells. Not personally you but other
2 inmates as well. I mean, inspected solitary cells. We'll talk about
3 Slobodan Praljak a little bit later if it's necessary.
4 Did you understand my question?
5 A. Yes, I did understand it, and I'll answer it now. On one
6 occasion doctors came by, and among the doctors was Mr. Pohara. He wanted
7 to write something for someone so that they could be released. Sejo Pasic
8 came with him, and he saw me. As I saw Pohara when he was with the
9 president once, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, I asked him what party it was that
10 he was in -- or, rather, that I was in and I said that I wasn't interested
11 in any party. All I was interested in was to be set free and for the town
12 to be pure and clean and liberated, and I wasn't interested in any party.
13 And I'm not interested in any parties now either.
14 Q. And what was his response?
15 A. His response was quite simple. He says, "You can't do anything.
16 You can't go anywhere because you're not a member of any party." And
17 that's where I stayed till the last day.
18 Q. You mentioned person Sejo Pasic. What was he? What was his
19 position at that time?
20 A. It was like this: Sejo Pasic, or Sead Pasic, and all of his
21 people were the Croatian Defence Council. I don't know what ranks they
22 held. And while I was in the hospital once, I saw him but I didn't dare
23 say hello to him because I was afraid that he might kill me. All I know
24 is that he's no kind of decent man, not today either.
25 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. And were you moved from the solitary
1 cells after being discovered by the Red Cross? I mean when. Did you stay
2 there for some period of time long or not?
3 A. Your Honour, although the Red Cross found us, I stayed on as did
4 many of the others on the list except for perhaps seven or eight persons.
5 We stayed to the very end. I left solitary confinement just before
6 Christmas. I was in there up until then, and I will give you all the
7 names and surnames. Placo Saric [phoen], Ledje Mehic [phoen], Jusuf
8 Katica, Rudi Pilot was taken. Rado Pink [phoen] was taken away. He was
9 taken to Ljubuski. Mirso Mahmutcehajic was taken to Ljubuski. So was
10 Zilic, he was taken to Ljubuski. And there were just 12 of us left down
11 there. And in the other two cells there was also -- there were the two
12 Demirovic brothers, Semir, and Suka [phoen], nicknamed Coric, an
13 active-duty policeman.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to get to the heart of
15 the matter.
16 Now, the document that you have before you by comes from
17 Mr. Stanko Bozic addressed to Mr. Bruno Stojic is a document which was
18 written following the visit by Mr. Franko Fara [phoen] from the Red Cross,
19 and this document highlights three problems: Detainees working, the
20 quality and quantity of the food, and the bad conditions in solitary
21 confinement cells.
22 Now, when we read this document, this letter, we see that the
23 author of it is concerned because he doesn't wish to find himself
24 accountable to a Tribunal one day, and he says that there are a number of
25 people who had been killed and wounded and that this number seems to be on
1 the increase. And there is certainly a reference to the people who were
2 sent outside the prison to do work.
3 Now, what can you tell us about this paragraph? And that's much
4 more interesting than the details that you quoted a moment ago. Could you
5 tell us?
6 The author of this article, what situation is he referring to when
7 he speaks of people killed and wounded at work, at the workplace?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'll repeat what I said
9 a moment ago. The conditions were terrible. People went to work, went
10 out to do work. And probably when Stanko Bozic signed this saying that
11 people weren't going out to do work then I believe that the gentleman had
12 in mind those who had been ill or had been beaten. But otherwise, people
13 went out to work on a regular basis, and I can guarantee that with my
14 life. Because there were shaves -- there were shovels and picks and other
15 things used when the people went out to work. They were filed up in the
16 hall. And I know the three brothers.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did they work inside the prison
18 or outside?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They worked up at the front lines
20 building bunkers and carrying sacks in Santica Street.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Poryvaev, carry on with your
23 MR. PORYVAEV: Yes. Thank you very much. I will continue with
24 this question.
25 Q. Witness, do you remember any names of people, detainees who were
1 killed or wounded while they were performing forced labour?
2 A. Miro Copil. He was the first. I can prove that straight away.
3 The man is still ill and sick. He's in the police. He still has
4 operations to undergo after that wounding.
5 And then I can tell you also there was Damir Huskovic. I saw him
6 from the station. He had been beaten up, but he wasn't wounded. He was
7 beaten up because he didn't want to carry the sacks in Santic Street. He
8 saw his friends, and they ought to lose their heads because all the
9 buildings there were razed to the ground.
10 Q. But any people killed? Do you remember their names? You just
11 mentioned two brothers. Do you remember their names?
12 A. Your Honour, it was a long time ago. I just can't seem to
13 remember their names, although I know that they were killed up at the
14 front line. That I know for certain. They were people from Sovici. And
15 many disappeared from up there, never to return. And I can confirm that,
16 Your Honour, because that same case is being dealt with in the town of
17 Mostar. Many people took money for giving false testimony.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have to ask you a question,
19 because a few days ago there was a witness who said that at Stotina, near
20 Donja Mahala, there were people who came from Heliodrom to do work there.
21 Now, to your knowledge were there prisoners from Heliodrom who did forced
22 labour at Stotina?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what I'm going to tell
24 you now is something that I will certainly never deny. That is the land
25 of my forefathers, and it was confiscated during Tito's time. Now, from
1 that place a sniper shot mostly at Donja Mahala, Luka, Sehovina and other
2 places. I know the policeman I saw him with my very own eyes, and his
3 name was Lozancic. They called him Suha Ruka, or thin hand. And I knew a
4 young guy who sorted the holes on the building because I tended to my cows
5 there and I know where the tanks were positioned. I know that very well
6 because my nephew, he was there, too, so I can confirm this 100 per cent.
7 It was from Stotina and from Visnjica that the -- the places were
8 targeted, because I know a young guy who went to --
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The detainees in Heliodrom, did
10 they -- were they taken out to do forced labour at Stotina? I said
11 "work." It says in the English text "forced labour." I said "work." In
12 French I said "work"; I didn't speak of forced labour. So work, who were
13 taken to do work there.
14 To your knowledge, the detainees from Heliodrom, did they go to
15 Stotina to work? It's a yes or a no.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. They had to
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you have a name or several
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. Ramiz Hodzic. He now
21 lives in the western part of Mostar, and he personally did this work, and
22 he openly said Mujo [phoen] Lozancic is killing innocent children. And I
23 saw that same man, Lozancic, wearing a camouflage white uniform. And that
24 was already in December. I can confirm that, because when I left the
25 station I saw him personally wearing a camouflage, white camouflage
1 uniform and a hat, and a sniper with optic sights.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To summarise what you said in
3 lines 14 and onwards, you said that Mr. Ramiz Hodzic told you that Miro
4 Lozancic had killed innocent children. Is that what you said?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, it is. That's
6 exactly what he said.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Continue, Mr. Poryvaev.
8 MR. PORYVAEV: I would like Witness to be shown Exhibit P 07498.
9 Q. Please open the document bearing this number, 7498 for you. And
10 this is the list of prisoners of war and civilians who died during work.
11 Please look at the list and tell us if you come across any names that
12 sound familiar to you.
13 A. Huso Ljevo, Mustafa Taso, Semir Cehajic, Enver Kajtas, Remzo
14 Sabljic, Enver Puzic.
15 Q. Did you know all of them? I mean the ones you mentioned.
16 A. Yes, I did, Your Honour.
17 Q. And how do you know that they were killed?
18 A. This was like this, quite frankly: I know when the people who
19 went with them up to the front line or many of them who went to Vojna
20 never returned to Heliodrom. That's what I heard from the same people who
21 went and came back, but these others never returned, and many of them
22 stayed in Vojna.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, a question from me. This
24 document is addressed to Mr. Berislav Pusic, and he was in charge of the
25 prisoner exchange. Since these people are apparently dead, we don't see
1 whether there could have been an exchange of any kind except to exchange
2 bodies, corpses. So how can you interpret this, this list addressed to
3 the prisoner exchange office? Do you have an explanation for that or
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'll have to apologise
6 greatly later on precisely to this person, as far as this person is
7 concerned, but it was more other people who asked about this and wondered
8 rather than Berislav Pusic. Sagolj wondered more and so did the others as
9 far as I saw it.
10 Now, I'll tell you of a misunderstanding that came about later on.
11 Now, this man here with his name and surname, well, I might even sort of
12 in a way be grateful to him perhaps for something. I don't want -- or,
13 rather, I want to be able to look everyone straight in the eyes, because
14 tomorrow my child will have to live in that town, Mostar, with all of us
15 together. So I don't want to inflict evil on anyone without cause. Other
16 people can't look me in the eyes because they killed my people and issued
17 orders for people to be incarcerated like me, and I became very ill as a
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A question from the Bench.
20 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, the document says that it
21 is a list of prisoners of war and civilians who died during work. Now,
22 you used the word "killed." Can you clarify that? Under what conditions
23 did these people lose their lives?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can tell you, Your Honour.
25 They carried sacks on their backs, many of them who passed by through many
1 bunkers in Santic Street and that Bulevar there. It was burnt down to the
2 ground and Santic Street too. Perhaps it was members of the BH army who
3 shot. I can't say they didn't. But they had to, because the front line
4 moved. The lines moved and each house in Santic Street was destroyed,
5 because you couldn't advance that way and set up a front line.
6 That's all I can say. You couldn't establish a line in any other,
7 and that's how people were killed, lost their lives. Many of them lost
8 their lives from the bullets and shells along that same front line.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For the transcript, we can note
10 that the last line says that the following persons died of natural causes,
11 Esad Kolak and Mujo Boskailo who are not among the 37 others.
12 Mr. Poryvaev, please proceed.
13 MR. PORYVAEV:
14 Q. Witness, when were you released from Heliodrom?
15 A. Your Honour, I was supposed to leave on the 19th of September,
16 1994. However, according to -- well, when they asked me which way I'd go
17 after I left I said to the right, to Donja Mahala, and they said, "No
18 you're not." And I said, "All right, fine." And I asked them the reason,
19 and they said the right side belongs to the BH army. And I said that's
20 the property of my forefathers, right by Vranica and the Krleze. You can
21 go there. And I said, "No, I want to go to Donja Mahala. That's where my
22 brothers are and cousins. I want to go there." So I left last, and this
23 is something that can be confirmed, because everybody knows how I left.
24 Everybody was there and looked and were able to see. Hamdija Jahic was
25 there. He was the head. I was just about to board a vehicle but I was
1 finally released on the 22nd --
2 Q. Mr. Hadrovic, just a moment. Please clarify the date. You
3 mentioned 19th of -- September 19, 1994. Is that correct? Are you
4 accurate about the date or your expected release?
5 A. I expected to be released then because I wanted to go to a third
6 country, but I wasn't given permission to do that. I just couldn't do
8 Q. When were you released?
9 A. On the 22nd of March, 1994. I was released last. Cehajic and the
10 others, Hamdija Agic [phoen] and the others --
11 Q. One question remained unresolved, undiscussed from yesterday,
12 because this part of my examination is already over, but have still a
13 little bit of time and I will ask this question: Mr. Hadrovic, you
14 were -- at some point you were guarding the Old Bridge. When were you
15 released from Heliodrom, did you get any information, knowledge, what had
16 happened to the Old Bridge?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Please tell the Trial Chamber.
19 A. I'll tell the Trial Chamber the truth, the real truth. I have a
20 document and a photograph too. Mr. Praljak was with us in the old town at
21 the time, and he said that -- Mr. Praljak, the general. General Praljak.
22 And I took a photograph, because I wanted to be seen standing next to a
23 general who had already started to --
24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't understand what.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I took a photograph of him and
1 Mr. Culajsic [phoen], Ali Pasalic [phoen], Hasic, and Kemo, the small
2 pilot. Your Honour, then I took another photograph and I stood next to --
3 MR. PORYVAEV:
4 Q. Witness, it's not a responsive answer. I would ask you just to
5 keep to the point.
6 MR. KARNAVAS: And what period are we speaking about?
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas.
8 MR. KARNAVAS: And what period are we talking about?
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] He didn't say he took a
10 photograph with Mr. Prlic. So if somebody has to intervene, it is, I
11 assume, Mr. Praljak's counsel, not Mr. Prlic's counsel.
12 MR. KARNAVAS: I beg to differ, Your Honour. I'm entitled to have
13 a clear record, and if the witness is not giving a clear because the
14 Prosecution is not listening to that information, I'm entitled to ask the
15 question and intervene. It doesn't necessarily mean that I can only
16 intervene for my client. And I would like to see any jurisprudence
17 anywhere that says that.
18 MR. PORYVAEV:
19 Q. I'm asking you about the Old Bridge. What happened to the Old
20 Bridge? The fate of the Old Bridge.
21 A. The Old Bridge, when I arrived, well that's what -- I was doing
22 labour when the Old Bridge was destroyed. They humiliated me at
23 Heliodrom --
24 Q. When?
25 A. -- I was left without a work post.
1 Q. When?
2 A. It was at Heliodrom --
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we're having trouble
4 following you because you're mixing up various things. You just mentioned
5 a photograph with Mr. Praljak. Then you say you were humiliated at
6 Heliodrom, then you go on to another subject. Try and focus and answer
7 specifically to the question you've been asked. When I ask you the
8 questions, you answer very well, so do the same for Mr. Poryvaev's
9 questions. Otherwise we're all lost, and Mr. Karnavas will be getting up
10 on his feet, and he did so to focus on this problem. So try and be as
11 precise in your answers as possible. I'm sure that lots of things are
12 going round your head, but the Prosecution is giving you a question line
13 and try to stick that and answer Mr. Poryvaev's questions.
14 Mr. Poryvaev ask your question again and they are geared towards
15 providing information for us Judges.
16 MR. PORYVAEV:
17 Q. What happened to the Old Bridge and when?
18 A. The bridge was destroyed.
19 Q. When?
20 A. I was at the Heliodrom at the time that the Old Bridge was
22 Q. You don't know the date?
23 A. It was in September, October, or November. I don't know the exact
24 date, because later I was provoked on account of the Old Bridge. I was
25 frequently humiliated because I had been on the Old Bridge.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic.
2 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there are two matters.
3 We have a time problem or problem as far as the description of time
4 periods are concerned, because the witness has already said that he
5 guarded bridges in Mostar in 1992. But now that we're dealing with this
6 issue the witness quite clearly stated at the time the Old Bridge was
7 destroyed I was at the Heliodrom. So we're now dealing with hearsay or --
8 or what? Hearsay certainly isn't appropriate in this case.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Poryvaev, apparently when
10 the Old Bridge was destroyed he was at the Heliodrom. So perhaps it is
11 not really useful to ask questions about the destruction of the Old Bridge
12 since we have had witnesses who were present when the Old Bridge actually
13 collapsed. So let's not waste any more time.
14 MR. PORYVAEV: Yes. Only one final question.
15 Q. Did you get any information who destroyed the bridge, the Old
17 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours -- just a minute,
18 Witness, please. That is what is at issue. If we are going to admit
19 hearsay another 5.000 people from Mostar can be called here and asked
20 about what is being said in the town of Mostar. We can provide articles
21 about this, too, but that's besides the point.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Kovacic, but you know
23 that hearsay isn't excluded according to the case law of this Tribunal.
24 So you were at the Heliodrom. Was the destruction of the Old
25 Bridge mention, and what were you told with this regard?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the Old Bridge collapsed,
2 everyone said way know that tanks went to Stotina, and they opened fire
3 behind the prison itself, but the detainees who went up there to construct
4 bunkers on Stotina said the Old Bridge has been destroyed. Barakovic and
5 another gentleman have destroyed the Old Bridge, the symbol of Mostar. I
6 can't remember the exact date because I was in solitary confinement. So
7 just imagine how sick I was.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, what you have said
9 about the Old Bridge has no interest in relation to the fact that you were
10 at the Heliodrom. But there is something that you have said that has
11 aroused my curiosity. You said that there were tanks apparently at the
12 Heliodrom and they opened fire from the Heliodrom. Have I misunderstood
13 your testimony?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, you have
15 understood me correctly. There were tanks at the Heliodrom, around the
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, stop there. Did you
18 yourself see the tanks around the Heliodrom and the hangars?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I did see them
20 with my very own eyes.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. My second question.
22 You said you heard them open fire. Did you hear the shots being fired?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we did, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Now, the third
25 question: What did they open fire on?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, all I can say is
2 this: I was told by my colleagues that they opened fire on civilians on
3 the Old Bridge and on Blagaj, on Semovac, and on Stotina. They opened
4 fire everywhere in Donja Mahala. That's where they fired from, because
5 when the armija started advancing everything would be blown up around the
6 barracks itself where we were kept in confinement.
7 MR. PORYVAEV:
8 Q. Who opened the fire?
9 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, you'll
11 cross-examine the witness about this.
12 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] But just one comment if I may. We
13 don't really intend to cross-examine this witness. This witness has no
14 value for us. But since you put this question, I believe that for the
15 100th time the witness didn't understand you. When he mentions the
16 opening fire, I understand his Bosnian language. He's not talking about
17 specific tanks that were apparently at the Heliodrom. His answers are not
18 answers to your questions.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It seems that there
20 may be a linguistic problem here.
21 I believe that you said that there were tanks at the Heliodrom.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, there were tanks
23 at the Heliodrom.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What do you consider to be a
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, a tank has caterpillar
2 tracks. I served in Tito's army. I know what a tank is. I was a tank
3 crewman. I know what a tank is.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you are saying
5 under oath that there were tanks at the Heliodrom.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I'm claiming.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I would like to -- to follow up a bit of this.
9 Did you ever notice that such tanks fired shots from the area near
10 the Heliodrom?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, when I went out of my
12 solitary confinement cell I saw with my very own eyes. I was in the
13 dormitories where others were, and I looked in the direction of the
14 hangar. I know by heart where they were positioned and what direction
15 they opened fire in. I know the positions where ABiH had members in
16 Podvelezje were. They opened fire on these positions.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My colleague is very precise,
18 just as I am, but what we want to know is the following -- all my
19 colleagues want to know the following: Did you see the tanks fire? Did
20 you see a shell coming out of the barrel? Did you see the shell coming
21 out of the barrels of the tanks, and did you see the barrel smoking? Did
22 you hear and see this? It's a very precise question.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I saw this with
24 my very own eyes because it was a distance of 20 to 30 metres. That's
25 where the tanks were positioned. They were behind the hangars and that's
1 the position from which they opened fire. Your Honours, I'm not lying. I
2 saw this with my very own eyes. I saw these tanks, and I saw the tanks
3 heading off in the direction of Varda. When I went out of the solitary
4 confinement cell later, when I went to empty the can that we relieved
5 ourselves in, I could see all this.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If you saw it others must have
7 seen it too. You couldn't have been the only person who saw these tanks
8 at the Heliodrom.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, naturally I wasn't the only
10 person to have seen that. All of those up there in the dormitories saw
11 that. The two floors and the attic. Everyone saw that, not just me. In
12 that central prison, there weren't just 4 or 500 of us. There were over
13 2.000 of us. People slept in the corridors and everywhere.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I don't see the word in English
15 that I heard in French. Perhaps the B/C/S has been translated directly
16 into French. In French it says, "everyone saw the spectacle." In English
17 it says, "We saw that." Did you use the word "spectacle" in your own
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me say the following,
20 Your Honours: I did, because everyone saw those tanks setting off in the
21 direction of the town. They saw where they opened fire from. And in --
22 and, yes, there was a great spectacle when the Old Bridge was destroyed.
23 I was one of the main persons at the Old Bridge, and I was humiliated and
24 remained without a job. I can prove this for certain.
25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Let me -- let me continue with a series of
1 questions. We have two things now in the air. I asked you whether you
2 had seen tanks fire, shoot, from the vicinity of the Heliodrom and you
3 said, "Yes." So did you see what these tanks were shooting at from
4 Heliodrom, what they were aiming at?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The tank positioned right by the
6 prison that opened fire in the direction of Blagaj and Dracevice where the
7 old Austrian tower was the armija was there and that's the direction they
8 fired in. I saw this with my very own eyes. I saw them opening fire and
9 hitting the white stone that that tower is built of. To this very day you
10 can still see the traces of impact. You can see holes. But I didn't see
11 them opening fire on the Old Bridge. All I know is that those who were on
12 Stotina, those who were digging trenches, they said that they were
13 building fortifications of some kind for tanks. That's what I saw.
14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. And you then said you saw tanks move.
15 I suppose that they moved in a northern direction, in the direction of
16 Mostar; is that correct?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
18 JUDGE TRECHSEL: And how many tanks did you see move? Was it one,
19 two, five?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some were behind the hangar. Others
21 were in the direction of Varda. One was on Hum. I know about the one on
22 Hum. It was hit for sure. And I know about two other tanks. People told
23 me about them. And I saw them moving through the barracks in the
24 direction of the town. They were most likely going towards Stotina
25 because that's the information I was provided with, and that's the
1 location from which they opened fire on the Old Bridge.
2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. If I might just go on with another
3 question, Mr. Karnavas, before you intervene.
4 You have indicated but not very clearly that you were aware of the
5 moment when the Old Bridge was hit. First, I'm not sure whether I
6 understood you correctly and, if it is so, could you describe what made
7 you think that the Old Bridge at that moment had been successfully
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's difficult for me
10 to say this but I'll have to. I'd been maltreated so badly, humiliated,
11 when they destroyed the Old Bridge, and I remained without a job. That's
12 when I was extremely humiliated. And, Your Honours, what I've said, I've
13 already said that about Mostar, where the same sort of conflicts are
14 ongoing. I have no reason to lie. All I can say is the truth.
15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: That is understood. That is understood, and we
16 have all the understanding also for the traumatic effect the destruction
17 of the Old Bridge may have had on many inhabitants from -- and people from
19 My question was a different one. I asked you whether the moment
20 the bridge was hit and destroyed whether you -- you had some perception of
21 this in Heliodrom, whether there was a special noise, or whether you are
22 just telling us what you have heard others tell you.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To be precise in one word, on
24 the day that the Old Bridge was destroyed, was this information provided
25 to everyone at the Heliodrom, and what did the detainees tell each other
1 about this? It's very clear.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'll answer that question
3 precisely. When the Old Bridge was destroyed all the detainees were sad.
4 I, too, because it was difficult for me.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before you felt sad -- just a
6 minute. My colleague will take the floor to put another question to you.
7 But before they felt sad, it was necessary to be provided with
8 information. So were you provided with the information?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes. Members of the HVO, the
10 policemen who were on guard at the time it, informed us of the fact. They
11 informed us.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I apologise to my
13 colleague, who has a question for you now.
14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: We are all of a lively temperament.
15 So I take it now from your last answer that there was nothing
16 which would indicate to you at the moment when the bridge fell that now
17 the bridge falls, this sound only means the bridge falls, but you only
18 learned about it because people from the HVO and later on inmates who had
19 been out for work told you so; is that correct?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, that's correct.
21 But there was shooting too.
22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. I apologise. Your patience has been
24 Mr. Karnavas, please.
25 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you. Your Honour, I just -- with the utmost
1 of respect, on page 30, line 6 to 8 you asked the gentleman in which
2 direction the tanks went, and then you went on a step further and
3 indicated, "I suppose they moved in a northern direction, in the direction
4 of Mostar; is that correct?" Now --
5 JUDGE TRECHSEL: That was a leading question. I should not have
6 asked that.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
8 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, it wasn't so much it was leading because
9 obviously Judges can ask leading questions at times, I would say, just as
10 lawyers on cross-examination can do so, but I believe when -- by
11 suggesting -- by saying, "I suppose they moved," it causes some concern,
12 especially when the supposition is being given to the witness itself. So
13 I just want to ask kindly that perhaps in the future we could avoid these
14 sorts of questions that might suggest an answer to a witness who seems
15 overly malleable. I'm not saying that that was the intent, but I'm saying
16 that he is rather malleable in our respective, you know, and collective
18 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I take your point.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Counsel has raised an
20 issue, but if the question was put by a Judge it means there was a reason,
21 a certain logic. As a rule, when Judges put questions there is a certain
23 When you mentioned the tanks that were there, we believe that
24 we -- you wanted to say that there were tanks that were moving, and my
25 colleague and I would have said the same thing. If they were moving, they
1 moved in a certain direction. Did you in fact say that as far as you know
2 there were tanks that left the Heliodrom and set off in a certain
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, naturally. They can't go down
5 towards the aluminium institute. They went to the town. Naturally he
6 know the points of the compass. I wasn't that naive.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you in fact said they moved.
8 The Judges didn't suggest this to you.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And given the fact that they had
11 moved, well, they could have moved any number of directions, north, south,
12 east, west. As far as you were concerned, which direction did they set
13 off in? There are four possibilities.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there are quite a few
15 possibilities, quite a few directions the tanks could set off in.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But in your opinion.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in my opinion they set off in
18 the direction of the north, the town, the bridge, Stotina.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So we haven't
20 suggested anything. The witness was following his own reasoning.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Poryvaev, how much time do
22 you still have? Mr. Registrar. I know the Judges have taken up some time
23 but we're dealing with certain essential matters and this can't be
25 Mr. Poryvaev, how much time do you need to conclude your
2 MR. PORYVAEV: Just I think not much more than 10 minutes.
3 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I would ask for an accounting. I
4 would ask for an accounting. The gentleman was given one hour and 10
5 minutes. If we are going to be held strictly, so should be the
7 MR. PORYVAEV: What accounting is it of yours, Mr. Karnavas? It
8 is the registry.
9 MR. KARNAVAS: That's what I'm asking for, an accounting of the
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Poryvaev, you have used up
12 an hour and 27 minutes. We gave you two hours, but you don't have to use
13 up two full hours, especially if the questions are put by the Judges that
14 dealt with the issues that you were dealing with. You said that you
15 needed another 10 minutes. Try to conclude within those 10 minutes. We
16 will then have a break and we will let the Defence cross-examine the
17 witness. So please continue with your examination-in-chief for another 10
18 minutes. And the Judges will not intervene.
19 MR. PORYVAEV: Thank you very much.
20 Q. Mr. Hadrovic, you mentioned today that at some point you saw
21 Mr. Slobodan Praljak in Heliodrom in the canteen area. My question is:
22 From what premises did you see him?
23 A. I saw him from the cinema hall, which is below the central
24 prison. Across the road opposite there was the officers' mess. I saw him
25 with my very own eyes. I knew him in the town of Mostar too. I also have
1 photographs of him together with myself, and I admired him for the fight
2 against our joint enemy. I can prove this. I have the relevant documents
3 and photographs. If necessary, I can show them to Their Honours.
4 Mr. Praljak knows with whom he had his photograph taken and where this was
6 Q. Thank you very much. And when were these photos taken?
7 A. The photographs were taken before the conflict, on the Old
8 Bridge. I couldn't find them then, but I have found them now and I have
9 them now. I have them on me.
10 Q. And which -- and which year? Before the conflict? It might be 10
11 years ago, before the conflict, or more or less?
12 A. You're quite right to say that. Those photographs were taken when
13 the Neretva was crossed. That was in June or July. We were sitting and
14 the photographs were taken. Mr. Praljak was there, Mr. Arif Pasalic, Ica
15 Lasic [phoen], Kemal, Pilot, and Hasic Pilot. And I was with him on the
16 other photograph. And I was full of admiration when he said we will drive
17 the enemy away. He won't leave any traces, but unfortunately that is not
18 what happened.
19 Q. What do you mean July and June? What year?
20 A. It was in June after the Neretva had been crossed. The Neretva
21 was crossed on the 11th or 12th.
22 Q. Yes, I understand you. I understand you. Year?
23 A. Which year? In 1992 and 1993.
24 Q. 1990 -- no, photos taken what year?
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. I said I
1 wouldn't put any questions.
2 You took the same photograph in two different years? Either it's
3 in 1992 or 1993.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The photographs that were taken.
5 They were taken in 1993, just before -- or immediately prior to the
6 conflict. And there are photographs that were taken in 1992 as well, when
7 Mr. Praljak went to Mostar. I'll show you the photograph.
8 MR. PORYVAEV: Your Honour, I have no further questions. Thank
9 you very much.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It's now 20 to
11 4.00. We will have a 20-minute break, and we will resume at 4.00 p.m.
12 Defence counsel will have two hours at its disposal, and we will make sure
13 that additional time is not used. Thank you, and we will resume in 20
14 minutes' time.
15 --- Recess taken at 3.41 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [No interpretation]
18 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English? Can you hear?
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me repeat. Witness, you're
20 going to be answering questions put to you by the Defence counsel and
21 perhaps also by the accused. Remain calm because sometimes the questions
22 can be very direct and might upset you, but do your best to keep calm and
23 to answer as precisely as possible and strictly within the frameworks of
24 the question. Don't broach other areas which might be of great interest
25 to you but is of relative interest to us. So stick to the question. And
1 the cross-examination has the right to ask you this type of question in a
2 very direct manner. I'm sure you'll be able to answer.
3 I think, Mr. Karnavas, you want to start off, do you?
4 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, Mr. President, on behalf of all of the
5 Defence, we'd like to thank the gentleman for coming here. We don't
6 believe that any cross-examination would, with this particular witness,
7 advance our quest for the truth, so therefore we don't have any
8 cross-examination, but I believe that Mr. Ibrisimovic does have two
9 questions or two points of clarification.
10 But one other point. The gentleman did indicate that he had some
11 photographs taken with General Praljak. We understand that he has them
12 with him. If it would be possible for the gentleman to turn them over or
13 at least maybe copies for us or for the registry to make copies of those
14 photographs, I think that would be something that we would welcome. But
15 in any event, we wish to thank the gentleman for coming here, and again we
16 don't believe that any cross-examination would advance our quest for the
17 truth in light of his testimony on direct examination.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Sir, you have heard
19 what the Defence has said. You said you had photographs on you, with
20 you. So the Defence would like to see them. Could you hand them over to
21 us so that we can make photocopies of them and then you can take the
22 originals home. Do you have the photographs with you?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, Your Honour, yes.
24 Your Honour, I'll give you the first photograph for you to photocopy and
25 to see who Mr. Praljak was sitting with, and then later on I'll give you
1 the second photograph to have a look at or, rather, to photocopy. Here's
2 one and here's the other.
3 MR. KARNAVAS: If we could put it up on the ELMO, Your Honour,
4 just so we can have a -- I'm getting assistance from my colleagues.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. We're going to put them on
6 the overhead projector, quite right, so that everyone can see them. I
7 just wanted to show Mr. Praljak the photograph, but thanks to the ELMO we
8 can see it.
9 And where was the photo taken? Where are you there? Or who are
10 you? Which one is you in the photograph, the one up front? The one up
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It was an honour for me at the
13 time to have my photograph taken with Mr. Praljak. The first photograph
14 is Mr. Praljak, Mr. Arif Pasalic, Kiho Nasis [phoen], Kemal Pilot, and
15 Hasic. He's also a pilot and now has a chemist's in the town of Mostar,
16 is the proprietor of a chemist.
17 I don't think photographs lie, that this photograph can lie. It
18 shows us together.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what about the second
20 photograph? There are five people there too. Who's on the second
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the second photograph the same
23 people I was with, Mr. Praljak, Arif Pasalic, Ica Lasic, Hasic the pilot,
24 and Kemo the pilot.
25 Now, this young man, Kemo, is working, and Hasic is the proprietor
1 of a chemist shop in Mostar, a pharmacy.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On the first photograph there
3 are six of you. So one person took the photograph. Who was the seventh?
4 Who took the photograph. The seventh person who took the photograph, who
5 was that? Unless it was one of those automatic cameras that take
6 photographs when positioned themselves.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The first time I took the
8 photograph with Mr. Praljak, Pasalic, Ica Lasic, Kemo, and Hasic. And the
9 second photograph is the one that I wanted to be in, too, with the
10 gentlemen, and that photograph was taken by Mr. Sisirak, Hara took the
11 photograph. It's a cafe in the old town right by the Old Bridge.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, yes, you have the
14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.
17 A. Good afternoon.
18 Q. Just a small question. Was this it taken in April 1993? I'm sure
19 you'll remember -- as far as I remember it, this was April 1993, mid-April
21 A. Thereabouts, yes, because the conflicts hadn't started yet. We
22 had crossed the Neretva and went back from Podvelezje and from Velez. We
23 returned from there. Mr. Praljak, you know that we all came back from
24 Podvelezje and that the Chetniks had left at the time and had gone to
1 Q. But if you remember correctly, and I'm sure you remember correctly
2 because I also remember this, this photograph, as far as I remember, was
3 taken roughly in mid-April 1993.
4 A. Before the conflicts. Just prior to the conflicts.
5 Q. Yes, prior to the conflicts. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, can the usher go
7 and make a photocopy of the originals and then we can give the originals
8 back and have an IC number.
9 Mr. Ibrisimovic, I think you have some questions to ask.
10 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my question is
11 just by way of clarification and what was in the transcript.
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Ibrisimovic:
13 Q. [Interpretation] We saw a document?
14 THE INTERPRETER: Slowly, please, numbers.
15 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation].
16 Q. The exchange document dated the 15th, 1993. P 05077. I'd just
17 like to clarify one point. It's on page 9 of the transcript. The witness
18 said that the Red Cross registered their names for the first time on the
19 16th or 18th of August. It doesn't matter. 1993. It's not important.
20 But is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] That's all, Mr. President. I
23 just wanted to have that in the transcript, because I don't think it was
24 clearly recorded. I have no further questions. I thank the witness for
25 coming to testify.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. May I say that I have
2 the document of when we left and the number under which I left, the number
3 I was recorded by the Red Cross.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
5 Mr. Poryvaev, no re-examination, I don't expect, because there
6 were no questions from the Defence teams or just confirmation of the
8 MR. PORYVAEV: No, Your Honour, I have no examination.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, may we give IC
10 numbers for the two photographs, please.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Mr. President. The photograph with the
12 witness will be given Exhibit number IC 443, and the second photograph
13 without the witness will be given Exhibit number IC 444. Thank you.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. On behalf of my
15 colleagues, Witness, I thank you for having come to The Hague to testify
16 about the events that took place in your own country. I would like to
17 express best wishes for your safe return home. And as you're going to
18 retire soon, we wish you a happy retirement.
19 I'm now going to ask Madam Usher to escort you out of the
20 courtroom and to return the two photographs to you as soon as possible.
21 Thank you, Witness.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I be allowed to thank you,
23 Your Honours, too. And I would just like to say or, rather, to change one
24 thing that is something from my life. When I gave my statements, I
25 mentioned there was a mistake in the writing of a name and a surname,
1 because I don't want that my child tomorrow or the child of the accused
2 say that I hurt him in any way, did evil to him, and I don't want that to
3 happen. And I mentioned this a moment ago. I mentioned his first name
4 and last name a moment ago. It was Berislav Pusic, and I can frankly say
5 that this will remain with me for as long as I live, and I can thank him
6 for being alive today. And I have every confidence in you, Your Honours,
7 that you will make your rulings according to justice and that you know
8 what I experienced and all the hardships I went through. Mr. Prlic knows
9 full well. He worked with Cibo and I was a car mechanic for his car. He
10 knows that in the Presidency at that time I had --
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, thank you. We have taken
12 note of what you said about Mr. Pusic, and I'm now going to ask the usher
13 to escort you out of the courtroom.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I turn to the Prosecution for
16 the schedule for the coming days. There's a witness for the next few
17 days. No protective measures for witnesses. There were no -- for the
18 next four days, a witness for the next four days. There are no protective
19 measures that have been requested. Seven hours have been envisaged for
20 the examination-in-chief of this next witness, which will probably take us
21 two days, and then I think the cross-examination can start on Tuesday and
22 go on into Wednesday and Thursday. So that is the schedule for the end of
23 February and the beginning of March. And in March we also have a
24 programme with another witness who will be coming in for the next four
25 days after the first four days. Is that right, Mr. Scott?
1 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honours. Good afternoon. That's correct.
2 We expect the witnesses for the next two weeks to be very substantial
3 witnesses and also involve a fair amount of -- well, a substantial amount
4 of documentation, and we do think that allowing for both the direct
5 examination and the cross-examinations, they will both take the better
6 part of a four-day trial week.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would like to
8 inform the Prosecution and counsel that I am going to be the Judge in
9 Mr. Seselj's trial -- the Pre-Trial Judge for the Seselj trial, so I will
10 have to sit in two proceedings.
11 If there are no other matters, we're going to adjourn.
12 Mr. Karnavas.
13 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Mr. President. I noticed today as I walked
14 into court and I turned on the monitor that on the Tribunet there was a
15 short indication, a short advertisement, as -- you could put it that way,
16 that in the Gotovina case the Trial Chamber ordered the Prosecution to
17 reduce the indictment. I mention that because I think that -- that we've
18 made this request on several occasions. We know that there's a -- at
19 least a -- based on the Appeals Chamber's decision the matter was remanded
20 back for further review or explanations, but again we would call upon the
21 Trial Chamber to revisit that issue and perhaps issue an order to the
22 Prosecutor to reduce the indictment or perhaps we could have a 65 ter
23 meeting in open session to see how we can reduce the indictment. I think
24 it's fair if others are doing it. This was done by Judge Bonomy in his
25 case. It's being done in the Gotovina case. The Rules have been changed,
1 and in light of the time schedules and time pressures, I think this is
2 something that perhaps the Trial Chamber may wish to revisit. I throw it
3 out there for your consideration.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll give you the floor,
5 Mr. Scott, but I'd just like to say something before that.
6 As you know, we had Article 73 bis and paragraph (D) that states
7 that, "after having heard the Prosecution the Chamber of the first
8 instance in order to guarantee a rapid trial invites the Prosecutor to
9 reduce the number of charges in the indictment," et cetera, et cetera.
10 Now, when this text was adopted by the Plenary Assembly, the Prlic
11 case was already under way, and at the Plenary meeting I asked my
12 colleagues if there could be a ruling which would be retroactive on this
13 particular Rule. I have not received a clear answer on the subject yet,
14 so I am waiting for a reply about the modification of this Article. And
15 the -- I asked for the text to be modified. I asked the Rules Committee
16 to do that, because this Article seems to come under the competence of the
17 Chamber before the trial, because it says "Pre-Trial Conference." So
18 there's a problem there.
19 If we did not have this problem, then quite obviously the Trial
20 Chamber would have asked the Prosecution to react as you have suggested,
21 but since the reading of the text as it stands now does not allow for this
22 possibility once the trial is under way, we can't budge on that point. Of
23 course, if the Defence really wish and consider that we are competent in
24 doing that, then they can present arguments along those lines.
25 I think myself that it would be possible, but I'm not quite
1 certain. I can't be 100 per cent certain. That is why I contacted the
2 Rules Committee, to be more precise about this matter.
3 Now, Mr. Karnavas, what I have said and what Mr. Scott has said
4 and will say -- well, I know that you attend all the work of the Rules
5 Committee, so you probably have a vision.
6 What is the Prosecution's position on the points raised by
7 Mr. Karnavas?
8 MR. SCOTT: Well, on that last point -- excuse me. On the last
9 point, Your Honour, the same might also note because I know the Chamber
10 said this before on Mr. Karnavas's participation on the Rules Committee.
11 I also am on the Rules Committee, have been on the Rules Committee for the
12 past four years -- at least four years, I think, before Mr. Karnavas came
13 on. So I also attend every Rules committee meeting, number one.
14 Secondly, Your Honour, I don't think it's fruitful to debate
15 what -- what might have been done at a previous time. There's a lot of
16 Rules of course that have not been applied in this case. Among those is
17 Rule 65 ter (F) which would require the Defence to state what is disputed
18 and not disputed. That Rule has never been applied in this case either,
20 So, Your Honour, we are where we are. The Prosecution would
21 resist to be perfectly transparent any such order in this case at this
22 time. This trial went through a -- case went through an extensive
23 pre-trial process. The trial has now been going on for almost a year, and
24 it is unfortunately in our view, or fortunately or unfortunately -- thank
25 you, Judge Prandler -- too late to expect the Prosecution to substantially
1 redesign its case. Most of the crime base has now been presented. We are
2 finishing that up in the next few weeks, and we would -- we are not
3 agreeable to counsel's suggestion. We agree with the Chamber's
4 interpretation, it does not apply to this case, and in any event, it would
5 be too late to apply the Rule now. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Anyway, as you know,
7 the Chamber will be making a ruling, because we also received a motion on
8 certain aspects of that question. So we will be making a ruling in due
9 course, but obviously the Rule gives the Prosecution all the powers to
10 modify the indictment, but there must be agreement from the Chamber. So
11 you are the -- you are in control in this case. And we shall be rendering
12 a decision in due course and responding to that.
13 Mr. Kovacic.
14 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps this isn't the
15 right time for a debate, but I'd just like to say something with respect
16 to the retroactive application of the said Rule. Of course, the Trial
17 Chamber will find sources that it can use for interpretation, but I'd just
18 like to indicate to the Trial Chamber that the national -- that according
19 to national law in the former Yugoslavia, and also this applies to all the
20 republics after Yugoslavia, had the material -- a material legal provision
21 in criminal cases when it -- we are dealing with material law in fact
22 meant that if a law is modified and amended after the trial has gone into
23 process then the mitigating circumstance is allowed. And also, the -- it
24 was up to the Court to apply the Rules that are more favourable to the
25 accused if there was an amendment when the trial was already under way.
1 We all agree that according to the practice in this court and the
2 source of law that this particular law of the Yugoslav republics and the
3 former Yugoslavia is one possible source and allows for interpretation.
4 And that's what I wanted to say.
5 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, if I might have one more moment, and I
6 think I might speak, perhaps rarely, for perhaps all the parties at this
7 point. I know both the Prosecution and the Defence made a filing -- have
8 made filings in the past couple of weeks and I say this in reference to
9 Your Honour's comment a moment ago that you anticipate issuing a further
10 ruling on the question of time.
11 I think it's fair to say, as both all the parties have indicated,
12 the parties would expect or anticipate being heard further prior to any
13 ruling on that basis. We don't believe there's anything additional in the
14 record now which would provide any further justification for the time cut
15 that is in the current record. There is no justification for the original
16 court order now is there any new information since the Appeals Chamber
17 ruling that would justify the time that has been cut from the Prosecution
18 case. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. We have taken note
20 of what you have said, and there will be a ruling. I think that we took
21 note of five or six decisions today -- registered five or six decisions,
22 so we're working very quickly, and this ruling will probably be
23 forthcoming within the space of next week.
24 Having said that, we reconvene on Monday at 2.15. Thank you.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.28 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Monday, the 26th day
2 of February, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.