090128ED

Page 13622

1 disclosure obligations. There is a witness who is bound to appear in the

2 courtroom. Their duty is to forward to me all the transcripts of all the

3 evidence provided by that witness in previous trials. In this case the

4 witness testified in the single trial, the Milosevic trial, the

5 transcript was submitted to me based on a book published by Natasa Kandic

6 in Belgrade. The parts of his evidence given in closed session are

7 missing. And then the Prosecutor submits to me these closed session

8 transcripts on the 18th of March last year. A total of 20 pages of the

9 record. I have them in front me as we speak as a matter of fact.

10 Now I've been comparing them to the open session transcript, and

11 I have just reached the conclusion that there are pages missing over the

12 weekend. Between 18656 and 18662, six pages missing. So we have 18, the

13 first two digits always, and then 663 to 665 missing again. 684 to 691,

14 missing. 694 to 695, missing. There, anyone can have a look for

15 themselves, anyone can have a look at what I got from the Prosecutor and

16 can see for themselves what exactly is missing.

17 Next thing, tomorrow the witness is about to appear --

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment. I will try and

19 settle this problem. I'm a little bit surprised by what you are saying,

20 Mr. Seselj. If the Prosecution discloses to Mr. Seselj a transcript of

21 what the witness may have said in another trial, in that case, you are

22 given all the pages on the transcript. How can pages be missing?

23 Mr. Mundis, I find it difficult to understand this. Mr. Mussemeyer also.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, just give us a few moments if you

25 would. My case manager is diligently checking our records to determine

Page 13623

1 what exactly is disclosed, and if, in fact, there is a gap in any of the

2 page numbers. But it might take her a few moments to run through all

3 those page ranges.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not receiving any

6 interpretation of what Mr. Mundis said.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me translate what he has

8 just said, he just said that they are currently checking with their case

9 manager what documents have actually been disclosed to you. You will be

10 told very shortly.

11 What is the second point?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now for something that I find

13 exceptionally important in relation to tomorrow's witness. I think he is

14 not a protective witness, but it doesn't matter because I wasn't about to

15 mention his name anyway. Names don't matter to me. You know full well

16 that I challenge the fact that volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party

17 would have been sent to Samac. However, some members of the Serbian

18 Radical Party were involved in the fighting in Samac, that much is true.

19 And they were involved in the units of the JNA. Among them

20 Srecko Radovanovic who had undergone special training because he had an

21 outstanding record in Slavonia as a volunteer. So he arrived with a unit

22 that was part of the 17th tactical group. They arrived in Samac. Now,

23 the Prosecutor had an obligation to submit to me the evidence of Slavko

24 [indiscernible] in his capacity as a suspect. They submitted this to me

25 on the 8th of July, 2008, which is the first day of the interview the

Page 13624

1 17th of January 2003. I had not previously had an opportunity to go

2 through this. I only have now in preparation for this testimony. I see

3 that the next day is missing of the interview. I have 52 pages in

4 relation to day one of the interview, and I see that this continues on

5 the following day, but I have nothing on the following day. I've gone

6 through all the documents, and I haven't found this yet, perhaps it was

7 disclosed to me later on. So they should speak up and say whether they

8 have, in fact, disclosed this or not, but I don't have it. And I believe

9 they were under obligation to disclose this to me in its entirety. Quite

10 aside from the fact that the Aleksandar Vasiljevic interview hasn't been

11 disclose today me yet, Certain portions. Jovika Panic [phoen], same

12 thing. All day at the beginning of last year, you told them explicitly

13 to do just that and to comply. And now to top it all off on the 2nd of

14 June, 2008, I received confirmation from the OTP that they were

15 disclosing to me the statement of Srecko Radovanovic dated the 26th of

16 November, 2002. Needless to say, I put this away in a certain folder, a

17 folder about Srecko Radovanovic. And I don't read immediately everything

18 I get from the OTP, but just as I see fit. Now, I'm preparing for

19 tomorrow's witness, I pick up this document, and I realise that in the

20 attachment what I find is not Srecko Radovanovic's statement. Now, we

21 don't even know whether Srecko Radovanovic gave a statement like that

22 because what I find in my attachment is a statement of

23 Srecko Borisavljevic, a JNA officer, a totally different person. Here

24 you can have it, your own expert can have a look and see this was stapled

25 together. No interventions were made, no one even touched this. So

Page 13625

1 instead of Srecko Radovanovic's statement dated the 2nd of June, 2008,

2 what I get is Srecko Borisavljevic's statement. Am I suppose prepare for

3 a trial like this?

4 On the other hand, you take away my ability to prepare with the

5 assistance of my legal advisors, when I would not need any documents at

6 all. I'm now deprived of the assistance of my legal advisors, and on top

7 of that being hampered by the OTP in preparing for trial by using methods

8 such as the one that I've just specified.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, it seems that as

10 far as tomorrow's witness is concerned VS-1010, that interviews are

11 missing.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, as was the case with respect to the

13 previously mentioned material. Our case manager is checking that, and we

14 can certainly be in a position to update the Chamber and Mr. Seselj

15 certainly during the course of this morning.

16 I do want to put on the record, however, while I'm on my feet

17 that the repeated statements by the accused that is his ability to

18 represent himself is hindered, is not in our respectful view a truthful

19 statement. And, of course, there are motions pending before this Chamber

20 to alleviate this situation. But it is our view that having had access

21 to his associate Mr. Aleksic that the accused should not be continuing to

22 indicate that his ability to represent himself is hindered. We do want

23 to put that on the record.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, basically you were

25 saying that it is difficult for you to self-represent yourself, and you

Page 13626

1 have brought this on to yourself, so the Prosecutor has got up and said

2 that that is the best evidence, that you should be assigned a counsel.

3 Let's backtrack a little bit. A few minutes ago, you said you found it

4 difficult. What prevented you from telephoning Mr. Aleksic and telling

5 him, Well, during the week we have such and such a witness that is going

6 to come and testify. Can you do what is asked of you? In other words,

7 look up such and such an item. And then all the people working for you

8 will get to work and make sure that Mr. Aleksic sends you the answers you

9 have requested in due time. And you have said, No, you are not doing

10 this because there is an obstruction to your Defence according to what

11 you are saying. This is not -- your conversations are not tapped. You

12 can say to him well, Witness 1010 is coming to testify. You give this

13 gentleman your instructions, and then he gets to work. But you are

14 saying I'm not doing this, so the Prosecution gets on his feet and says,

15 Well, make sure that he has a counsel, and then the counsel will do --

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, I never said I was

17 unable to defend myself. But rather, that the Prosecution was keeping me

18 from defending myself and deliberately obstructing me and hindering me.

19 I have led evidence to that effect. I'm able to defend myself even if

20 the OTP never submit another document to me ever again. Even without a

21 single associate ever in Belgrade. I'll still be able to defends myself,

22 and I still remain far superior to a ten-man Prosecutor team. Far

23 superior. But my Defence will not have the sort of quality that I would

24 find desirable. What should I do with Boris Aleksic for example? He is

25 not up to date. Some days ago his wife gave birth to is a child. The

Page 13636

1 station?

2 A. My first duty station was the police station in Bijeljina. Yes,

3 the police station in Bijeljina.

4 Q. I now intend to go to the years 1991. Mr. Witness, can you tell

5 us if there was a kind of rising tensions between the different

6 ethnicities in your region?

7 A. Well, directly in the area in which I lived somewhat less, but in

8 the Republic of Croatia and around Bosnia, it was evident that there was

9 tension between the different groups of different ethnicities.

10 Q. Do you remember when this was?

11 A. In 1991, the end of the summer, beginning of autumn.

12 Q. What were the facts from which you concluded that there was

13 raising tensions? Could you describe this.

14 A. At that time I was coming back from my holidays, and I had spent

15 my holiday around Zadar and Split. And while I was travelling back from

16 Split in the direction of Bihac, I would come across -- I would go across

17 Croatian territory where there had already been the erection of

18 barricades, barricades had already been erected and meetings by the

19 national groups had already been organised, rallies. And a few days

20 later a conflict broke out in that part of former Yugoslavia.

21 Q. Do you know who erected these barricades?

22 A. In the area that I passed through, it was mostly areas inhabited

23 by the Serbs.

24 Q. Did you realise kind of, let's call it nationalistic rallies.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Mussemeyer, I appreciate your attempts to get

Page 13637

1 to the point, but please don't try and lead the witness.

2 MR. MUSSEMEYER: It's not my intention to lead the witness, but

3 these are points which are not crucial for the accused, and I want to go

4 quickly through. So I ask the witness if he can answer my last question.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, if you are

6 asking -- if you are putting the question to him by saying, Do these

7 rallies have a nationalist connotation, I believe that you are very

8 leading there, but move on.

9 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I would like the witness to answer this

10 question.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In that area of the Republic of

12 Croatia, these nationalistic meetings or rallies were organised, and I

13 can state now that they were organised by, I think the Serb party or some

14 Serb party in that region inhabited predominantly by a Serb population.

15 MR. MUSSEMEYER:

16 Q. Have there also been discussions or debates between your police

17 colleagues?

18 A. Well, after those events there was a division among us too, who

19 was for, who was against, who was right, who was wrong, so you could

20 foresee that it would happen among our ranks very quickly, a division

21 between us colleagues.

22 Q. Where did these -- or where did you observe or hear these

23 discussions? Was it in a group? Or was it in a different place?

24 A. Well, it began first of all along the channels that we used for

25 communication in the police force. That is to say, you could hear

Page 13638

1 discussions between colleagues in the neighbouring republic, the Republic

2 of Croatia, so that we followed those conversations, and automatically,

3 where we were, you could notice a division among us because our

4 colleagues who were Serbs, our Serb colleagues who until recently --

5 well, the paperers that were published in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bosnian

6 papers, automatically were being read -- well, they read newspapers from

7 Belgrade, and they didn't read the Bosnian or Croatia papers. They

8 refused to read them, but only read papers from Belgrade.

9 Q. Did police officers from Muslim origin also participate in these

10 discussions? Do you remember this?

11 A. No, no. I remember very well, as far as I know from where I

12 worked, we didn't interfere -- well, we didn't interfere, colleagues

13 didn't interfere from other ethnicities except for one outbreak when a

14 channel was opened, one station had their communication channel open, and

15 you could hear two colleagues discussing these matters. And they were

16 Serbs by ethnicity.

17 Q. Do you remember a special event when the situation deteriorated

18 tremendously?

19 A. At that time a conflict broke out, well, there was a clash, not a

20 major one, large scale, but anyway, a clash in the villages between the

21 Bratunac municipality or the surrounding parts of Bratunac. Well, in

22 actual fact a Muslim man was killed. He was shot at in a car, and after

23 that incident there was great discord and unrest between the two ethnic

24 group, the Muslims and the Serbs. They were opposite each other. So we

25 had to be sent to that region afterwards, we were sent there to separate

Page 13639

1 the two sides, or the two villages, or actually, it was a number of

2 villages, but villages with different ethnic groups living in them.

3 Q. How would you describe the situation between the different

4 ethnicities at that time?

5 A. Well, at that time in that area, the area to which we were sent,

6 you had the Serbs and the Muslims, and they lived opposite each other.

7 For example, they were just divided by the road, and I can say that they

8 were armed so that every time we were sent there, if we got close to one

9 side or the other side, we had to change our names. If you are -- if you

10 were going to Serb village, then you would have a Serb name. If you went

11 to a Muslim village, you would take on a Muslim name, so that they

12 weren't able to see which ethnicity we belonged to, but this was a little

13 difficult to keep up because we were in between two fires, if I can put

14 it that way.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you are saying something

16 important here. There's an incident, a Muslim is killed, the police

17 forces and you were part of them, go and try to separate the two sides.

18 But you are adding -- they were armed. So why is it that at the time the

19 authorities didn't decide to just arrest the perpetrators of this murder

20 and ask everyone to surrender their arms, maybe sending in the army to

21 try to restore law and order? Why wasn't this done? When there's a fire

22 being lit, you try to put it out immediately. You know, if you don't put

23 it out quickly, everything burns. So why wasn't anything done to restore

24 law and order?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Why nothing was done? Well, I

Page 13640

1 can't really say now. First of all, we didn't receive any orders to that

2 effect to intervene at all in any one of those villages. And all the

3 population there was armed. Now, who they got their weapons from, I

4 can't say, but there was no order from our superior command telling us to

5 intervene. If we were to come across people who were armed that way and

6 to disarm them, so we had no possibility of doing that.

7 MR. MUSSEMEYER:

8 Q. Mr. Witness, do you remember a conversation you overheard over

9 the police radio between two Serb police officers? And what were they

10 telling about?

11 A. Well, those two colleagues were talking. Whether intentionally

12 or not, they left the channel open, their communication line was open so

13 that we could hear them, and the entire region used those communication

14 channels. Anyway, they were discussing the situation in Croatia and what

15 was happening in Croatia to the Serbs and to the Croats, and they said

16 that Croats and Muslims in Bosnia would suffer the same fate, that the

17 same thing would happen there, what happened in Bosnia would happen in

18 Croatia.

19 Q. Did this conversation have any consequences for the two police

20 officers?

21 A. As far as I know, it did not. Although, you could clearly see

22 which wavelengths were used for the conversations, but as far as I know

23 there were no consequences. They weren't punished because of it, and it

24 was all hushed up just as if nothing had happened.

25 Q. Did you yourself experience problems at your work for the fact

Page 13641

1 that you were of Muslim ethnicity?

2 A. Well, there were problems, mostly in -- if you were punishing

3 somebody of a different ethnicity, Serb, for instance. Or if you had any

4 contacts, if you happened to stop a person who was in the reserve force

5 of the army or was a member of the army, well, then, they would abuse

6 you, tell you you couldn't do anything, you couldn't punish them in any

7 way, and they said that you were just trying to punish them because they

8 were Serbs. So problems of that kind occurred.

9 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, what about your

10 superiors? Were they of all ethnical background, or were they of a

11 single ethnicity?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From various ethnicities, but

13 mostly the commander would be one ethnicity, the deputy would be another,

14 and so on. It was always a mixed composition until 1992.

15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] It's a bit surprising. In

16 Yugoslavia at that time, it was quite normal for the police to see

17 civilians with weapons? That was quite normal at the time?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. If we were to undertake

19 anything, if we were to do anything, well, if you happened to come across

20 some weapons in somebody's car or somebody having weapons on them without

21 the documents required, then the weapons that we would seize would be

22 returned to that same person one or two days later because, and I

23 remember this very well, with a colleague of mine -- well, a colleague of

24 mine confiscated a weapon from somebody who was going to Serbia via

25 Croatia and when searching his car, they found a pistol and a hunting

Page 13642

1 rifle and a knife, and he didn't have permits for those weapons. But

2 when we seized those weapons, two days later, all this was returned to

3 him because they got permits from somewhere. They came in with a permit

4 from somewhere.

5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

6 MR. MUSSEMEYER:

7 Q. Mr. Witness, did you always work at Bijeljina, or were you also

8 sent to other locations in Bosnia?

9 A. Mostly in Bijeljina, but from time to time when the need arose,

10 they could send us to anywhere in the former Yugoslavia. So it didn't

11 matter whether you wanted to or not, that was the law governing Internal

12 Affairs. For example, the federal SUP or the republican SUP could say, I

13 need five men from Bijeljina today to go somewhere else. So I was sent

14 to Bratunac, for example, and then afterwards to Bosanski Samac.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'd like to come back

16 to these weapons. Either, you know, inhabitants have their fighting --

17 or their hunting rifle, Okay, this is understandable. In the countryside

18 people usually have hunting rifles, or on the other hand, they have war

19 weapons. And if that's the case, how did they get them? Because you

20 seem to say that some organisations provided them with weapons, Muslims,

21 Serbs, or Croats. So were there really organisations who provided

22 weapons to all these people? I mean, you know, an assault rifle is

23 expensive. If someone has a weapon, either he was given the weapon or he

24 bought this weapon. Could you tell us what was the case.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it depends on the type of the

Page 13643

1 weapon. The weapons that were prohibited were automatic weapons mostly.

2 You could purchase hunting rifles yourself, but only if you had the

3 necessary documents when going to buy one, whereas the other kind of

4 weapons were not accessible to the civilian population, the automatic

5 weapons and so on. And I can tell you, as far as I know, that the

6 population, the Serb population, would receive weapons from the JNA.

7 Whether it was directly from the JNA or the Territorial Defence, the TO,

8 whereas the Muslim population, well, allegedly, I heard that they

9 purchased the weapons. Now, where they bought them from, I really don't

10 know.

11 MR. MUSSEMEYER:

12 Q. Mr. Witness, do you remember if you have been sent to another

13 location by the end of February or beginning of March 1992, and if so,

14 where?

15 A. To Bosanski Samac, to secure the bridge in Bosanski Samac in

16 actual fact.

17 Q. Can you tell us how was the relationship between Serbs, Croats,

18 and Muslims there, at Bosanski Samac?

19 A. Well, I can tell you that all these groups were already divided,

20 each group for themselves, and then passing through the villages in that

21 area, inhabited by different ethnicities, each village would have a

22 check-point set up by the locals of the village. So we had to pass

23 through these checkpoints that were manned by the locals. It wasn't the

24 soldiers, they were the locals, but they were armed.

25 Q. Was it possible for you to go into a Serb village?

Page 13644

1 A. No, no, not into the villages, but to pass by the villages, I was

2 allowed to do that. I could do that.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Starting from this, it seems

4 that there's no more law and order, it's anarchy. If police is no longer

5 allowed to enter into a Serb village, there must be a real problem then.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes. At the time if somebody

7 had a rifle in their hands, they had greater power than the police. And

8 to stand up to someone like that, you just cause greater conflicts. So

9 we didn't dare react to things like that at all.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

11 MR. MUSSEMEYER:

12 Q. Can you please tell us what kind of caps your police officers

13 were wearing?

14 A. In Bosanski Samac, we were there, well, to prevent any more

15 conflicts. And mostly we had ordinarily caps, knitted caps, just to keep

16 you from the cold. Whereas our Serb colleagues refused to wear caps like

17 that, and they wore the Tito-type of cap with the five-pointed star. The

18 normal police caps that were standard issue at that time.

19 Q. What emblem did you have on your cap?

20 A. [No interpretation]

21 Q. Do you know why the Serb officers were wearing the cap with the

22 five-pointed star?

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, Mr. Mussemeyer. The witness's answer

24 to your question of which emblem they wore on their cap was not recorded.

25 Could you put the question to him again, the answer well recorded. Thank

Page 13645

1 you.

2 MR. MUSSEMEYER:

3 Q. Mr. Witness, which kind -- do you know why the Serb colleagues

4 were wearing the cap with the five-pointed star?

5 A. Well, mostly to provoke the Croatian side. The colleagues from

6 the Republic of Croatia who were stationed halfway up the bridge. Well,

7 we were at the one end of the bridge, and they were halfway across the

8 bridge in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

9 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Your Honours, I would like to go now to the

10 events in Bijeljina. I think it's a good.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Sorry. I still did not understand which emblems

12 they wore themselves.

13 MR. MUSSEMEYER:

14 Q. I understood that they didn't wear any emblem, but it's up to the

15 witness to explain us again of what kind of emblems did you have on your

16 caps?

17 THE WITNESS: None.

18 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I think it would be a good time for a break.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's have a 20-minute break.

20 --- Recess taken at 10.00 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 10.25 a.m.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

23 I would like to welcome Mrs. Dahl who has just joined us. I shall give

24 the floor back to Mr. Mussemeyer, now.

25 MR. MUSSEMEYER:

Page 13646

1 Q. Mr. Witness, before the break we were talking about Bosanski

2 Samac, that you had been ordered to go there. Now, I would like to come

3 to the events in Bijeljina. Can you tell us, how did you become aware of

4 problems in Bijeljina?

5 A. While I was at work, while I was doing my job in Bosanski Samac,

6 I saw that some conflict had broken out in Bijeljina on television, and

7 that evening the commander, the chief of the police station in Bijeljina,

8 called us and said that my colleague and I should return to Bijeljina.

9 Q. Did you do this and did you find any problems while returning to

10 Bijeljina?

11 A. The next day there was a car that was placed at our disposal, and

12 a colleague who worked there was supposed to transport us in the car, and

13 when we returned to Bijeljina -- well, from Brcko to Bijeljina, on that

14 stretch of the road, we came across a number of barricades that had been

15 erected along the road and we were stopped and checked each time.

16 Q. Who had erected these barricades, and who stopped you?

17 A. The population of those villages, the Serbs.

18 Q. Do you remember how many barricades you had to go through?

19 A. I think about 17 barricades up to the entrance to Bijeljina

20 itself.

21 Q. And you finally arrived to Bijeljina, did you find any problems

22 at the outskirts of Bijeljina or could you directly go into Bijeljina?

23 A. At the last barricade at the entrance to Bijeljina, or just

24 before you enter Bijeljina, we were stopped by a number of people at the

25 barricade, and they checked us, and after that a car had to come from our

Page 13647

1 own police station to drive us to the police station itself escorted by

2 them. They wouldn't let us go on our own.

3 Q. Who were they? Were they soldiers, and if so, from which unit?

4 A. The regular -- no, no, they weren't regular soldiers. They were

5 the reservists of the JNA. And the civilian population which lived

6 there.

7 Q. Do you remember what one of these reservists asked your Serb

8 colleague who was driving you?

9 A. He asked me why he was driving me, and after that they had to

10 send a car for us from the station to escort me, not him, for security

11 reasons. And all he said was that we had been given instructions from

12 the commander that we should be in -- well, we were in Samac and our

13 commander, the chief of police, told us to go back to the station

14 urgently.

15 Q. What do you think why he was asking this, your Serb colleague?

16 A. Because he knew that I was a Muslim.

17 Q. When you entered the town, what did you see and realise?

18 A. When I entered the town, I noticed that there was a large number

19 of soldiers in the town already of para-military units wearing all sorts

20 of different uniforms. And one could notice that there had been clashes.

21 It wasn't before later on that I realised what exactly had occurred, once

22 I had reached the station already.

23 Q. Did you realise kind of obstacles on the streets in Bijeljina,

24 and if so, please describe it to us?

25 A. In several places that I passed there were barricades, obstacles,

Page 13648

1 cars and trucks parked across the road. I don't know who put them there,

2 though.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Mussemeyer, could you just clear with the

4 witness exactly when it was he entered the town.

5 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I wanted to clarify it, but I can do it now.

6 Q. Do you remember the approximate date when you were going back to

7 Bijeljina and entered the town?

8 A. The day after the clashes broke out, on or about the 1st of

9 April. That's when I arrived. 1992.

10 Q. When you returned to the police station, did you have to sign

11 some documents expressing your loyalty?

12 A. Yes. We were made to sign -- I don't know exactly, but a

13 document of loyalty to the Serbian SUP, S-U-P . I think it was called --

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection, while the witness is

15 thinking about what exactly it was that he signed, I believe there's a

16 need for the Trial Chamber to intervene regarding the leading questions

17 by Mr. Mussemeyer. There was no there is no oath, that is obvious if we

18 look at any of the witness's statements. He signed an agreement to the

19 effect that he would be serving with the police of Republika Srpska.

20 Mr. Mussemeyer is deliberately driving the witness to say that this was

21 an oath. Notwithstanding the fact that the witness himself is setting

22 the record straight.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, I believe it's

24 on page 43, lines 7 and 8 where you say, you mention loyalty. I don't

25 see to what extent this could be leading.

Page 13649

1 MR. MUSSEMEYER: I don't understand this. I was not talking

2 about an oath. I was explicitly using the word "signing" the document of

3 loyalty and was not talking about oath. So I don't understand where this

4 should lead or be leading.

5 Q. Mr. Witness, can you --

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that was the

7 interpretation both the witness and I got, an oath, and then the witness

8 set the Prosecutor straight by saying this was no oath. So we might be

9 talking at cross purposes, talking to Mr. Mussemeyer and the interpreter

10 at the same time. Perhaps the Trial Chamber should say who exactly we

11 should be listening to, the interpreter or Mr. Mussemeyer.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor put a question

13 on a document about loyalty. He didn't mention an oath, and it is the

14 accused who mentions an oath. This is how I see things.

15 Irrespective of this, Witness, Mr. Seselj has just said something

16 which you need to clarify. Mr. Seselj has said that you signed an

17 agreement with the police of the Republika Srpska. What does this mean

18 exactly?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's true. This was an agreement

20 that I signed about loyalty to the SUP, S-U-P, of Republika Srpska. I

21 think it was called the Centre of the SAO Semberija, Majevica Services, I

22 think that's what it was called, but it was about signing one's loyalty

23 to, for example, the SUP of Republika Srpska because it wasn't Republika

24 Srpska at the time, it was the Serbian MUP, M-U-P, at the time.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But you were a

Page 13650

1 civil servant in the police of what country?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The republican SUP of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but at the moment the republican SUP no longer got

4 any respect among the Serbs, and there were no communications between the

5 republican SUP and, for example, the Bijeljina station.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment I would like the

7 interpreters to be extremely careful. There is a mistake here. The

8 witness said I was working for the SUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and on page

9 44, line 24, it is said the SUP of the Republika Srpska. That's not what

10 he said. So please repeat.

11 I'm asking you this question, at that time you were a civil

12 servant working for the police. For which country were you working.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Republican SUP of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina up until that point in time.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, we have it, I must just

16 check that it is properly recorded on the transcript. And now you are

17 being asked to sign an agreement with the SUP of the Republika Srpska.

18 What did this mean? That Bosnia-Herzegovina did no longer exist, that

19 there was a new republic, what did all of this mean exactly?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This means that at the time there

21 was a division within the republican SUP or in the whole of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The ethnic Serbs seceded from the others. We were

23 not the first police station to do this, there had been other divisions

24 before. A Serbian SUP or something like that was set up, or a SUP of

25 Republika Srpska, but I don't think it was Republika Srpska. Therefore

Page 13651

1 at the time we had the centre of security services, SAO Semberija, and

2 Majevica and we signed our loyalty to that centre, because in

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina all the SUPs were subject to security centres.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I think we need to go more

5 slowly. This legal concept can be very important and have consequences.

6 First of all, you talked about the SUP of the Republika Srpska. Now you

7 are saying something different. You are saying that you were part of the

8 SUP of the SAO and then you said something else, so please clarify this

9 again.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I worked at the Bijeljina public

11 security station, used to. Then it was the security services centre

12 Tuzla that was in charge of us. And then when the clashes broke out in

13 1992 and whatever happened in Bijeljina, the Bijeljina security station

14 seceded and a new security services centre was established. SAO

15 Semberija, and Majevica.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all the other

17 microphones be switched off while the witness is speaking, please,

18 because the interpreters can't hear the witness. Thank you.

19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, please, were there

20 Muslim police stations that were staffed by Muslims and were there police

21 stations that were staffed by Croatians?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not in my area.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] An objection, just to make this

24 easier. The witness is talking about what he was supposed to do

25 following the clashes in Bijeljina once the Muslim forces had been

Page 13652

1 defeated and had already withdrawn from Bijeljina. Therefore, Bijeljina

2 now remains in the hands of the Serb forces. And then he signs his

3 loyalty in order to keep working with the police.

4 It's not very likely that was SAO Semberija, and Majevica,

5 because Republika Srpska already existed. SAO Semberija, and Majevica

6 had been set up the previous year, 1991. In April 1992 Republika Srpska

7 very much existed already. Therefore it's much likelier that he signed

8 his loyalty in order to keep on working with the police of Republika

9 Srpska. However, the Prosecutor would have encountered no problems in

10 making sure the document was available for us and this is no secret at

11 all.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you agree with the

13 fact that you signed a document in order to work for the SAO?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And Mr. Seselj adds that this

16 SAO existed prior to that?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't agree. All right.

19 Not officially. But did it exist de facto?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not that I knew of.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It was important to

22 clarify this.

23 Mr. Mussemeyer, you have the floor.

24 MR. MUSSEMEYER:

25 Q. Mr. Witness, what was your task when you were back to the police

Page 13653

1 station? Did you get a specific task?

2 A. Yes, the first day we got an order, all of us, to not leave the

3 station. It wasn't before day two, I think, that I got an order from my

4 boss that I should go into town.

5 Q. What were you expected to do there?

6 A. I and my colleague who came with me were expected to escort or

7 secure persons who were picking up the bodies of dead civilians and

8 soldiers. Those who were killed on the streets of Bijeljina.

9 Q. What was your task during this, let's call it exercise?

10 A. Securing the two persons who drove the two hearses and also

11 remaining in touch with the station because we were receiving from the

12 duty officer at the station all the locations that we were to go to.

13 Q. Did you perform this work without being harassed?

14 A. No, not quite that simple. There were many soldiers and

15 paramilitaries, to put it that way, around town. People who stopped us,

16 checked us, let us go. There were some disarming going on later on. All

17 sorts of things happening over the two days that I spent there.

18 Q. Do you know to which units these paramilitaries belonged to?

19 A. Oh, well, Arkan's army, for example, the JNA reservists, and some

20 people organised by Mirko Blagojevic, volunteers. A mixed bag.

21 Q. What did these paramilitaries tell you what was going on in

22 Bijeljina?

23 A. They were saying that these people had been killed as a result of

24 war, although there had been no war at all.

25 Q. Did you -- please explain us why there was no war, according to

Page 13654

1 you.

2 A. Well, the word "war" implies large scale clashes. The use of all

3 sorts of weaponry such as shelling, bombing, and so on and so forth. As

4 far as I could notice, small arms and light weapons were used for the

5 killing of those people. Automatic rifles at best, I think. Sometimes

6 the occasional Zolja, and there was no major damage resulting from those

7 clashes.

8 Q. Do you remember how many bodies you helped collecting in these

9 days?

10 A. As far as I remember, there were about 48 bodies that I collected.

11 I can also say that there were a lot more, but there were some bodies

12 that I was supposed to collect, that had been collected by their families

13 before I got there and were buried secretly in the cemetery.

14 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Thank you Mr. Witness.

15 Mr. Registrar, I would like to have the document under 65 ter

16 2702 on the monitor, please. And this is under seal. Maybe we should go

17 into private session.

18 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, I have a question

19 first for the witness. Witness, would you also say that there was no

20 civil war underway? No internal conflict at the time?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say it was war. Clashes

22 between ethnicities, for example, the Muslims and the Serbs who were in

23 town, yes, there were clashes. That much was obvious. But as for the

24 use of some weapons such as shelling and that sort of thing, not exactly

25 on a large scale. This was mere the exchange of rifle fire going on for

Page 13678

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are now in open session.

3 MR. MUSSEMEYER:

4 Q. Mr. Witness, did you know some of the victims?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you tell us which ethnicity they had?

7 A. The ones I knew were Muslims, but there were other ethnicities

8 among the victims.

9 Q. Do you remember that you accompanied a person on the second day

10 of your collection? Can you tell us who it was.

11 A. Yes, I was dispatched to escort an inspector from the federal

12 SUP, from Belgrade, who had arrived from Belgrade. We were to welcome

13 him on the way out of Bijeljina in the direction of Bosanska Raca.

14 Q. Could you go with him through the city without any problems, or

15 have there been problems?

16 A. When we returned after we met him, we were stopped near the

17 barracks or near the Belimi cafe, I think that was what it was called, by

18 the paramilitaries, I can't call them anything else because I don't know

19 which unit they belonged to. Both I and my colleague were disarmed as

20 well as the inspector who was driving a different car right behind us.

21 Q. Have you been disarmed? Yes, you told us, sorry.

22 Did you get your arms back later on?

23 A. Mr. Goran Jelisic was adamant that I should be given back my

24 weapon, and I was. The inspector and I were returned our weapons, but my

25 colleague was not.

Page 13679

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you said that these

2 were para-military units. How are you able to establish a distinction

3 between JNA special units, for instance, and paramilitaries? What leads

4 you to say that this is the official army and these are paramilitaries?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Regular military units, there were

6 none in the town. The reservists and in Yugoslavia, as it's well known,

7 everybody had a reserve military uniform. So many people were actually

8 wearing those, reserve uniforms. 50/50. Part uniform, part plain

9 clothes, normally. But then, for example, Arkan's unit, they were

10 wearing full combat gear with uniform, and they looked very much like an

11 organised unit, while the others were loose cannons.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'd like additional detail.

13 When you are saying reserve military units, for you, are they legal

14 units? Do these people belong to an army or not?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For me, they were paramilitaries

16 because they had not been mobilised by the military leadership which

17 means that they had been mobilised by the Serbian Democratic Party and

18 some other organisation like that, but not by the military, the army's

19 leadership. They were not mobilised by the army's leadership.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, you said that Arkan's

22 units had uniforms. Could you tell us which uniforms they were wearing?

23 JNA uniforms or others?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, yes, JNA or not JNA.

25 Camouflage uniforms, full kits. You could buy a JNA uniform if you

Page 13680

1 wanted to. It was available, but the boots, the trousers, the jacket,

2 and a full combat kit. Normally what a JNA soldier would have had in

3 those conditions, not including the military cap. These people were

4 wearing knitted caps.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, Mr. Mussemeyer,

6 without giving you instructions or anything, we might have a photograph

7 that could illustrate what the witness just said. Photograph 1037. You

8 could ask for it to be displayed, and that way the witness could confirm

9 what he said in his answer to Judge Lattanzi.

10 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Okay. I agree. I had foreseen this photograph

11 for some seconds later, but we can show it now.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

13 Mr. Registrar, could we please have item 1037 displayed.

14 MR. MUSSEMEYER: We have already seen this photo with another

15 witness, and it has got the Exhibit number P684.

16 Q. Mr. Witness, what kind of soldiers can we see here? To which

17 unit do they belong?

18 A. These are members of Arkan's unit, and as we can see, they are in

19 full combat kit.

20 Q. Can you say as where, in which location in Bijeljina was this

21 photo taken or where the victims are shown? Where is the location? Do

22 you know this?

23 A. The location is near the hospital, near Redzep's house. The

24 person lying on the ground is Redzep, his wife, and a third person that I

25 can't identify.

Page 13681

1 Q. Do you know if also Redzep's child was killed?

2 A. Yes. The child is across the way behind this first soldier's

3 back, in the front yard of the mosque.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, Mr. Redzep's wife,

5 could you tell us which lady it is on this photograph? Is it the body

6 that is in the middle, or is it the body that's to the very right of the

7 picture?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't know. Very well.

10 But you are telling us that Arkan's men were dressed in such a uniform,

11 is that it?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Beanie cap, glasses, rangers on

14 their foot, camouflage unit.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This is something like it,

16 but for the most part, they were in full combat kit.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The one who is with his foot

18 raised, I see that on his back, slung across his back he has got

19 something, seems to be a rocket-launcher. What do you think of it? Did

20 they have rocket-launchers?

21 THE WITNESS: Yes, that is a Zolja, a small calibre

22 rocket-launcher.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

24 MR. MUSSEMEYER:

25 Q. Did you help collecting these bodies?

Page 13682

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were these all the bodies you collected from that spot, or did

3 you have to collect others?

4 A. No, behind this gate in front of Redzep's house, there are

5 another four bodies, and then yet another four in the basement of

6 Redzep's house.

7 Q. Did you initially find these bodies in the basement, or did you

8 have to be called back?

9 A. No. First I picked up the four bodies that were out in the

10 street, and then I went to get the four bodies that were in the yard. I

11 was afraid that the house itself, Redzep's house, or the basement might

12 be booby-trapped, therefore, I didn't dare to actually go in and check.

13 But later Mr. Redzep's relative, the Redzep who had been killed, reported

14 that there were another four dead bodies in the basement of that house,

15 so we went and got them.

16 Q. Did you know one of these victims?

17 A. A single one whose body was in the basement. Coso Nargalic, his

18 body was in the basement.

19 Q. Are you sure that it was him? Do you recognise him?

20 A. It was difficult to recognise the other bodies there. The body

21 was -- the head was defaced from the blows. It was disfigured, it was

22 very difficult to make a positive ID.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you collected the bodies

24 of these victims. On this photograph here, these civilians obviously had

25 no weapon. I would like to know whether all the bodies that you

Page 13683

1 collected were bodies of people with weapons or without weapons?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Indeed. None of the persons whose

3 bodies I collected were armed or had any military kit on them at all.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There is a small mystery which

5 I tried to raise, to unveil with another witness, but he was not able to

6 answer. Maybe you won't be able to answer either. This is a photograph,

7 it was taken by someone just when this soldier is about to -- obviously

8 to kick the victim. Who took this picture? Is it one of Arkan's men, or

9 is it freelance photograph that would be on the site at the time? Do you

10 have any idea who took this picture?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was a journalist. This

12 photograph was taken from the direction of the hospital, and the person

13 taking the photograph was probably concealed.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you collected these

15 bodies, was somebody filming what you were doing?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. In this very spot shown in

17 this photograph, I, as a matter of fact, tried to use my own camera, the

18 one that I had in my car, but it was seized, and I was banned from taking

19 any photographs or, indeed, checking the dead bodies. Their identities,

20 I mean.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Who took away your camera? You

22 see, as we put the questions the witness, we learn a lot of things. Who

23 actually took the camera away from you?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let's say it was Arkan's men.

25 Members of Arkan's unit. They were wearing the same sort of -- the

Page 13684

1 outfit as the rest of them.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, there was the police,

4 but with the police, were there other people collecting these bodies

5 alongside the police?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure what exactly you mean,

7 but with me there were another two persons from the public utilities

8 company. They were seconded by the company to help collect the bodies.

9 I didn't, myself, collect the bodies. I provided security for those two

10 people from the public securities party who actually did. And they were

11 in charge of transporting these dead bodies.

12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you. This is exactly what

13 I wanted to know. Thank you.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are welcome.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, it's 12.00. I

16 believe it would be time for the break. We will finish at 1.15 today, so

17 let's have a 15-minute break. And when we resume, it would be nice if

18 the Registrar can tell me how much time you've already spent.

19 Fifteen-minute break.

20 --- Recess taken at 11.58 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Court is back in session.

23 Mr. Prosecutor, you have the floor.

24 MR. MUSSEMEYER:

25 Q. Mr. Witness, do you remember having collected also the corpse of

Page 13693

1 MR. MUSSEMEYER:

2 Q. Mr. Witness, did you recognise Mirko Blagojevic on this

3 video-clip?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Your Honours, I ask to get this video-clip

6 admitted into evidence.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment. Before we rule on

8 this, sir, did you hear like I did -- this was shown very quickly. I

9 believe he said, "I'm the President of -- I'm the regional President of

10 the Serbian Radical Party." Did you hear this?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the person saying that was

13 Blagojevic, Mirko Blagojevic?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What we see -- at some point we

16 see a building which is marked "Gogo". Is this in Bijeljina?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, from the first sketch where I

18 marked the cafe bar Istanbul and the cafe bar Serbia.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I think we see two sets on this

20 video-clip. We hear the fighting; we hear the shooting. And this is

21 shot live, so to speak. And then we have the interview of Blagojevic; is

22 that right?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We can hear the shots, the

25 bursts of fire, but we have the feeling that no one is firing back. Is

Page 13694

1 that what you heard also?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. On a number of occasions

3 there was shooting without any reason hitting shops, houses, just like

4 that. Nobody was in any of those buildings.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, could we see

6 the video-clip again and stop when Blagojevic is speaking so that we can

7 see the insignia he is wearing and what he is wearing because it moves on

8 so quickly.

9 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Certainly, Your Honour.

10 [Video-clip played]

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So he says, I'm the President

12 of the regional -- of the Serbian Radical Party -- "I'm the regional

13 President of the Serbian Radical Party." So you saw him on the picture.

14 When you saw him, was he dressed like that?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he wasn't dressed like that. I

16 didn't see him looking like that.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, he wasn't dressed like

18 that, oh. What was different?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't hear the interpretation.

20 Could you say it again.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me repeat my question.

22 What was different? What is different between what we see and between

23 what you saw at the time?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's like this: Normally, he

25 didn't have a uniform, but here we have to see -- well, that the members

Page 13695

1 of the unit led my Mirko Blagojevic, that they all had these cockades on

2 their heads, whereas the rest didn't have those, for example, the

3 reservists, the JNA reservists, or Arkan's unit, they didn't have

4 cockades.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's give this an exhibit

6 number.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Prosecutor is

8 repeating the same mistake that he made in March last year. He is not

9 telling us the date when this was filmed because the fighting in

10 Bijeljina lasted four days. In the document attached to this file, it

11 says that it's a statement by Vojvoda Blagojevic in Bijeljina March 1992.

12 There was no fighting in March. The fighting began on the 31st of March

13 and went on for at least the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd of April. So we need

14 dates and possibly who filmed this so that we know what day this was

15 filmed on.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, where do these

17 pictures come from? What is the date of them?

18 MR. MUSSEMEYER: The exact dates, I cannot tell you. I don't

19 know. I can tell you how the Prosecution received this video-clip. I

20 already mentioned it in March. We received it from Sonja Biserko, and

21 the date was the 6th of November, 2002, that she gave it to the

22 Prosecution. More, I can't tell you.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, we have the video-clip, we

24 need an Exhibit number.

25 Mr. Registrar please.

Page 13696

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P737.

2 MR. MUSSEMEYER: Your Honour, I was informed, if you see at this

3 still at the left-hand corner at the top, there is the Logo of a Serbian

4 television. From Belgrade.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, this is a question of

6 a technical nature. When Blagojevic says we are controlling all the

7 exits and entrances to the town, we have the feeling that he is the big

8 boss. He is in charge of everything. He gives an interview to

9 television. Was that the case or not?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That he was keeping everything

11 under control, I don't believe that. The Crisis Staff was in charge of

12 that, after all. They were holding all the access roads into the town.

13 Well, that was the case even before the clashes broke out. I can only

14 say that the clashes went on for about two days, meaning between the 31st

15 and the 1st. On the 1st and perhaps early on the 2nd of April. After

16 that there were no clashes. No shooting. Shooting into the air.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, if you say that the

18 clashes lasted two days, this means that the Muslim forces fought? There

19 was fighting in that case?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Was there fighting? There was

21 probably someone, but it wasn't to the same extent. For example, there

22 was no unit that was holding the entire centre of town because there was

23 no such thing. So there were no major clashes. Individual, sporadic

24 clashes, two or three men involved who were armed and then they fired at

25 a member of this unit, that unit, Arkan's unit, but not to any major

Page 13697

1 extent.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Muslims that were shooting

3 at Arkan's men, were these Muslims placed under anybody's command, or

4 were they just doing what they felt like doing?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think there was no command. For

6 example, some neighbourhoods organised themselves, and that's how

7 resistance was put up. Based on that. I'm not aware of there being any

8 direct command.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What about you, yourself?

10 Maybe this question would have been put during cross-examination. You

11 were a Muslim policeman. Normally speaking, your side would have been

12 the Muslim side. Why didn't you shoot at Arkan's men and the other men?

13 Or did you shoot and you are not talking about it?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. I wasn't shooting myself.

15 If I had been shooting, I would have been killed, that much is certain.

16 I said already and I'll say it again, I was at the police station, and

17 the entire station was not involved in the clashes that were going on in

18 the town. I simply had no opportunity to clash with those persons at

19 all. But I know that on day three, I went into town myself. I was

20 walking around. There was no shooting, no actions, or anything like

21 that.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just one question mark.

23 Arkan's men saw you, and they didn't kill you?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. But when I was walking around

25 town, they couldn't know who I was and what I was doing, especially