Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15052

 1                           Tuesday, 19 January 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you please

 6     call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you and good morning, Your Honours.  This

 8     is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

10             Today is Tuesday, the 19th of January, 2010.  I would like to

11     greet Mr. Seselj as well as all the representatives of the OTP, as well

12     as everyone helping us in this courtroom.

13             Mr. Seselj, today we were supposed to have a hearing with a

14     protected witness, so I will not give his or her name, but I can always

15     give the number.  It was V-026.  Over the last three weeks I personally

16     made sure that this witness could appear in order to not find ourselves

17     in a situation where the witness would not be able to appear today.

18     Unfortunately, over the last three weeks we had the court recess, and

19     within the Registry, as well as within the relevant local authorities,

20     some people were not in a position to follow up on this case on a

21     full-time basis, which means that last week when the witness appeared, we

22     did not have yet a clear vision as to whether this witness was in a

23     position to come or not.  And I only learned at the end of last week,

24     that is on Thursday or on Friday of last week, that the witness had

25     undergone an operation, and therefore he would not be in a position to

Page 15053

 1     appear.

 2             This item of information was sent to us just a few days before he

 3     was supposed to appear here.  We found out that he had an operation, and

 4     we were not aware that he was about to have an operation.

 5             Given this surgical operation, he cannot travel at the moment,

 6     and he will need a couple of weeks in order to recover from this

 7     operation and to be in a position to appear.  So this witness V-026 will

 8     not appear today or tomorrow and possibly not in the coming weeks.  So we

 9     will make sure that with the witness unit we follow up the situation to

10     see when he will be able to appear.  If he cannot come to The Hague, we

11     will have a videolink, and if he can come to The Hague, of course he will

12     appear in this courtroom.

13             So this is a new outcome.  As I said, I tried to deal with this

14     and to follow up on this matter, but we only heard this information

15     recently.

16             There's another issue as well which does not allow us to prevent

17     those problems is that the witness unit gets in touch with the witness

18     only once they have received an official notice from the appearance here.

19     And it's only after that, that the witness unit can get in touch with the

20     witness or with his or her family to see whether they can appear.  And of

21     course this is regrettable, because I don't see why the witness unit

22     could not call before the official notice and tell them, "Okay, a

23     notice -- an official notice will be handed down to you.  And would you

24     be in a position to come?"  This could be done on an informal basis, but

25     this process is so cumbersome that we are trying to have a translated

Page 15054

 1     version from this notice of appearance and the overall notice before we

 2     actually launch any measure with the witness, which is why sometimes we

 3     do not have any witness before us.

 4             So I wanted to give you this information so that you are not

 5     surprised, because I assume that as the Prosecutor, as myself, you

 6     probably prepared the appearance of this witness, and we find ourselves

 7     in the situation where we do not have any witness.

 8             As for next week, there is no problem.  As far as we know,

 9     another witness will appear.  It is VS-029, so we will not have another

10     witness not appearing.  And the legal expert will deal with the witness

11     following VS-029.

12             You know that we have to make sure that we plan in advance to

13     make sure that witnesses appear.  This is very complicated, and we have

14     to be very particular, but if we do not want to waste any time we have to

15     look at every detail.  However, we are not going to waste any time,

16     because we will be able to touch upon administrative issues.

17             Last week we have realised that when we couple administrative

18     issues and appearance of a witness could lead to the following

19     consequence:  Namely, that we do not have enough time to hear the

20     witness.  Given that this morning we have a few minutes, actually, we

21     have about an hour and a half for administrative issues, and I believe we

22     might just as well deal with those first because next week we will have

23     our priority which will be hearing Witness VS-029, and we will not deal

24     with any administrative issues because the priority will have to be the

25     witness, and the administrative issues should be priority number two.

Page 15055

 1             Given that we have time at the moment for administrative issues,

 2     we might as well use the time that we have at hand.  From a personal

 3     point of view I will have two questions to deal with, but I would prefer

 4     if you started with administrative issues, Mr. Seselj, so please go ahead

 5     with the ones that you wanted to touch upon today.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have seven

 7     administrative issues to raise, and this time I'll have to expound at

 8     greater length about them, and I hope you have the patience to hear me

 9     out.  So I'm going to tackle these issues one by one if you allow me to

10     do so.

11             First of all, with respect to the witness that was supposed to

12     appear today, gentlemen, Judges, you have been informed and received

13     documentation prepared by the Prosecution and were able to see just how

14     many problems there were concerning this witness.  My associates have not

15     had any contact with him for a long time now and they have not

16     endeavoured to do so from the time that you said that neither the

17     Prosecution nor the Defence was allowed to contact the witness.  However,

18     from the latest documents and particularly from the statement made by the

19     witness published in the press, and I think you've received a photocopy

20     of that press article, the statement he made to the press, we see that

21     the witness has said that the Prosecution had forced him in an earlier

22     trial to give false testimony and that those preparations lasted for a

23     month and a half.  I think that is a very serious allegation, and while

24     the witness is recuperating, I think that the Trial Chamber should

25     appoint amicus curiae who would undertake an investigation and inquiry to

Page 15056

 1     establish what this is all about.

 2             The witness was exposed to threats from the Prosecution that he

 3     would be held responsible if in everything else -- if he failed to repeat

 4     what he said in the previous trial in this trial against me to protect

 5     the witness.  And because of his serious health situation I think that

 6     these -- this preparation could have been done earlier on and that the

 7     amicus curiae could inform you what this is all about.  And I think that

 8     this time round you would find somebody who was unbiassed to be the

 9     amicus curiae if you accept my proposal.

10             The second point is this:  Last time, at the last appearance, I

11     was told --

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, first point, you

13     touched upon this issue, and I wanted to touch upon it as well but from

14     another angle.

15             As for this very witness, you talk about a press release that I

16     have not read.  The Court Officer will look into this, but I do not have

17     this before me, and I'm not aware of this statement, but we will look

18     into this.

19             You say that given what he said, the Chamber should appoint an

20     amicus curiae.  The three Judges are going to look into this request, but

21     I should like to remind you of something that may have failed the

22     attention of those following the trial.  Maybe not you but others.

23             Before the trial, you made a request for a contempt of court

24     against Mrs. Carla Del Ponte, as well as against some of her

25     collaborators, and you were saying that the OTP had put pressure on some

Page 15057

 1     of the witnesses.  This motion or request was dealt with by the Chamber

 2     chaired by Judge Robinson with Judge Bonomy and myself.  The Chamber

 3     chaired by Judge Robinson ruled on your motion.  As far as I can

 4     remember, I will quote the main tenets.

 5             The Robinson Chamber ruled that witnesses named in your motion

 6     would be heard by the current Chamber made of myself, Judge Harhoff, and

 7     Judge Lattanzi, and this current Chamber will hand down a ruling at the

 8     end of the hearing of all those witnesses, which means that de jure the

 9     current Chamber is still the one dealing with this issue.  And this in

10     turn means, and I'm sure you realise that, that when witnesses appear, I

11     ask them questions about the way their statements were taken, how it

12     happened, did they sign anything, and so on and so forth, and this is

13     always in this spirit that I ask my question, and this is what I will

14     carry on doing, and this is what my colleagues will carry on doing when

15     other witnesses appear.

16             So as for point number one, there is already a reply which is the

17     decision of the Robinson Chamber.  This is still relevant, and the

18     current Chamber is still the relevant Chamber for this issue, and this

19     current Chamber is not going to pass this on to any other instance.

20             I believe that this was useful to remind you of this, because

21     that way you are aware that we are still in charge of this matter when

22     dealing with any OTP members that could be involved in this process, and

23     at the end of the trial we will hand down a ruling.

24             So this is for point number one.  Now if you want to touch on

25     point two, please go ahead.

Page 15058

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. President, it

 2     wasn't my intention to challenge those proceedings, and I'm quite sure

 3     that you and your colleagues of the Trial Chamber will do the job

 4     properly, but I thought that this model could be of assistance in later

 5     examination of this witness, but it isn't something that I would insist

 6     upon.  So as far as I'm concerned, this witness is very important to me.

 7     The most important witness for my case, for my defence case, saying that

 8     the Prosecution used unacceptable means to instrumentalise the witness,

 9     and so I should like to have a very profound in-depth examination and

10     inquiry of this witness, but I have nothing against your interpretation

11     of this whole issue, so you can take it free me that I will not persist

12     in what I have proposed.

13             The second point is additional argumentation with respect to your

14     position taken that in this case we cannot apply the new Rule

15     92 quinquies.  And one of the basic principles, as far as I'm concerned,

16     of criminal law guarantees that not a single rule can be applied

17     retroactively to my detriment.  So we cannot apply 92 bis, ter, or quater

18     either.

19             Now, in this particular case we had a situation in which the

20     Prosecution insisted that transcripts be admitted into evidence from

21     other trials because it wasn't satisfied with its examination-in-chief

22     during this particular case.  We had an example of that this summer.

23             Next, the Prosecution insisted that the witness statements which

24     it compiled itself be introduced into evidence, and they referred to

25     92 ter or quater and sometimes to Rule 89.  Not even Article 89, which

Page 15059

 1     states that every document can be admitted into evidence - I'm giving a

 2     free interpretation of that - does not imply that we can admit something

 3     that was compiled and is a creation of the Prosecution.

 4             When we say documents, when documents are referred to, we mean

 5     relevant documents from the relevant time, whether it be a court

 6     appearance or proceedings or statements given to certain organs, and so

 7     on and so on, but from the relevant material time, and not something that

 8     is created by the Prosecution itself endeavouring by this product to

 9     confirm and support the indictment which it cannot support in any other

10     manner.

11             And then something new has cropped up.  The Prosecution is

12     seeking to have admitted into evidence an interview by a witness who was

13     examined as a suspect.  That has never ever happened anywhere.  And

14     that's what they're trying to achieve here.  It's like this:  Every

15     witness whom you -- to whom you say, "You or suspect," is no longer a

16     witness.  Everything he says, he says as a suspect or as an accused in

17     some other proceedings in case, and it's an old law that holds true in

18     criminal law that somebody who is a suspect or accused has the right to

19     lie in his own defence.  A large number of suspects and people who have

20     been accused of something, maybe more than 50 per cent even, in front of

21     a policeman or an investigating judge or a prosecutor lies by placing the

22     blame on others, and nobody can prosecute him for that.

23             And now we had a case here where a man was interviewed three

24     times by the Prosecution over a long period of time as a suspect, and he

25     fended as well as he could to get out of the situation and pass the blame

Page 15060

 1     on to somebody else and to relieve himself of the blame by accusing

 2     somebody else.  And then the Prosecution says, Now, what you've just told

 3     us defending your own position, you're going to say that same thing in

 4     another trial in support of the indictment against such and such a

 5     person.  So those are absolutely impermissible methods.  All right if he

 6     says these things in the courtroom, but if he doesn't say this in the

 7     courtroom then the Prosecution tells him, Well, we're going to ask that

 8     the transcript and document of his interview be admitted into evidence.

 9     So that is my objection there.

10             Now, the third point, Croatian television, on the 15th of

11     January --

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, as for point two,

13     there will be part of an answer because the Prosecutor for last week's

14     witness has asked for its written statement to be admitted, and so the

15     Chamber will rule on this.

16             You have also mentioned the retroactive effects of Rule 92 bis

17     and ter and quinquies as well as quater, stating that there could not be

18     any retractive application.  We have already dealt with this issue at

19     length, but for those following the trial, of course, they need to have

20     all information.  I'm sure that you know of Rule 6(D) of the Rules of

21     Procedure and Evidence saying that modifications will enter into force

22     seven days after their publication so -- but this is without prejudice

23     for the accused.  So the question is whether there is any prejudice for

24     the accused, and this has to be looked into.

25             I have not yet identified the case.  I understood that the

Page 15061

 1     Appeals Chamber has been asked or will be asked to deal with this issue

 2     through a pending issue that has been brought before the Appeals Chamber.

 3     So I'll wait to see what the Appeals Chamber will say.

 4             When we looked into this previously, I said that I had raised

 5     this issue during the Plenary meeting, which had led to the adoption of

 6     this new rule, and I had asked a very clear question regarding the

 7     retractive nature of this rule, this new rule.

 8             So this is a concern that we have within the Chamber.  And

 9     through the ruling that we will hand down regarding last week's witness,

10     this Chamber will either unanimously or through a majority ruling will

11     deal with the issue that you have touched upon.

12             Please move to point three.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Croatian television, on the 15th of

14     January, 2010, in a broadcast called "TV Calendar," evoked reminiscences

15     of Zeljko Raznjatovic Arkan.  And on that occasion the editor of the

16     programme - so it's not some irresponsible statement - but the editor

17     said that Zeljko Raznjatovic Arkan at the end of 1999 conducted

18     negotiations with The Hague Tribunal, and I assume they mean the

19     Prosecution, although it was said that -- Hague Tribunal, about a

20     possible bargain, plea bargaining to lift responsibility from him and put

21     it onto someone else with insinuations that after coming into contact

22     with The Hague Tribunal the Milosevic regime was liquidated.

23             Now, I'd like to propose to the Trial Chamber to demand and

24     request of the Tribunal to give us a detailed report in which they will

25     state whether there was any contact with Zeljko Raznjatovic Arkan or not;

Page 15062

 1     and if there was, to explain to us what it was all about, what was

 2     discussed, what the contacts were about, and to provide us with all the

 3     documents about that.

 4             This is a very important matter for my case in view of the fact

 5     that Zeljko Raznjatovic Arkan is stipulated in my indictment as one of

 6     the members of the joint criminal enterprise for which I'm being accused.

 7             The fourth point is linked to that third issue, and it is this --

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a minute.  On the third

 9     point, I'm not -- I don't know anything about a fourth, but first of all,

10     I would like to speak immediately on the third point.

11             It is true that Arkan is in the indictment as a member of a joint

12     criminal enterprise.  It is also true that several witnesses, several

13     statements, speak about his role, which was a very important one in

14     committing certain crimes.  It's also true that an accused must have a

15     disclosure of any document which has to do with one of the persons who is

16     indicted either under 68 of the rules or under 66, Rule 66 of the rules.

17             So to your knowledge, Mr. Seselj, is there, as Mr. Seselj says,

18     after this broadcast of the Belgrade television, are there documentation

19     of the Prosecution which establish a contact with Arkan with a promise

20     eventually if there is a collaboration of anything, or is it first news

21     as it is for me?  Is it the first time you hear about that now?

22             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your --

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Earlier -- let me now respond to

24     the question by the Presiding Judge.  Please have patience, and I will be

25     brief in my response.

Page 15063

 1             There were some intimations in the public that something of that

 2     nature had occurred.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a minute.  Mr. Seselj, I

 4     gave the floor to Mr. Marcussen, who may say something, and after that

 5     you will able to respond.  Or do you prefer to bring some new element

 6     immediately in order to make Mr. Marcussen's answer easier?

 7             Right.  Mr. Marcussen, please answer, and then Mr. Seselj will

 8     continue.

 9             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honour, to me, personally, this is as new

10     information as it is to the Bench, and I, first of all, will note that I

11     do not see the relevance of any of this to the case.

12             The Prosecution has complied with its disclosure obligations and

13     have given the -- have given extensive documentation to the accused under

14     Rule 66(A), under Rule 66(B), and under Rule 68.  And the only issue is

15     whether or not the Prosecution have any documentation to be disclosed.

16             Now, the Prosecution is not -- the Prosecution is not going to

17     reveal who it had had contact with in the course of its investigations,

18     and this is not something for the accused to look into.  We will

19     undertake -- we have undertaken to comply with our disclosure

20     obligations.  We will undertake to look if there's anything that needs to

21     be disclosed in the light of this information, but it is not for the

22     accused to demand the Prosecution to give any accounts of what kind of

23     investigation it does, who it speaks to, or anything like that.

24             So that's our position on this, but as I said, I firmly believe

25     that we have disclosed everything we have to disclose to the accused.

Page 15064

 1     Certainly we have done our utmost to comply with that.  Your Honours will

 2     remember that we have received -- we have disclosed more than 300.000

 3     pages of documents on one occasion to him at his request in hard copy.

 4     Of this is in addition to our compliance with all sort of other

 5     disclosure obligations we have.  So I'm fairly confident that we have

 6     given the accused everything he could possibly dream of, and I'm -- can

 7     say without equivocation that we have done everything we possibly could

 8     to ensure disclosure to the accused of everything he needs.

 9             So those are my submissions on this point, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I'm going to give

11     you the floor, but you, too, in order that you could answer completely to

12     Mr. Marcussen, I wish to quote Article 70(A) of the real -- rules, and I

13     shall read it slowly:

14             "Notwithstanding the rules of Article 66 and 67 above, the

15     reports, memoirs or any other document -- notwithstanding the provisions

16     of Rules 66 and 67, reports, memoranda or other internal documentation

17     prepared by a party, its assistance or representatives in connection with

18     the investigation or preparation of the case are not subject to

19     disclosure or notification under those rules."

20             Therefore you have the floor now.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, first of all a

22     remark in passing.  The Prosecution has disclosed immense quantities of

23     materials to me, but it is my impression and the impression of my

24     associates that they simply put together everything that they came

25     across, and 90 per cent of the materials are not relevant.  It's just

Page 15065

 1     ballast.  But that's immaterial.  In the case of Zeljko Raznjatovic

 2     Arkan, the rule that you quoted, Mr. President, Rule 70, simply does not

 3     apply.  That is man who is listed as a participant of the joint criminal

 4     enterprise.

 5             Secondly, this is a man who is described in the indictment as a

 6     person whose men, Arkan's men, as part of the Serb forces committed

 7     crimes in the Hrid neighbourhood in Zvornik.  That's in my indictment.

 8     Killing 20 Muslim civilians.  And I am held responsible for that crime.

 9     It's not Arkan; it's not his deputy; I am held responsible.  And that's

10     why the Prosecution is duty-bound to submit all those documents to me,

11     and I insist on it.  The Prosecution does not have the right to cover up

12     any contacts with Arkan if they had any.

13             The Prosecution is duty-bound to inform me about any

14     conversations with any witnesses if anything crops up that might be of

15     interest to me.  They regularly provide me with notes from the proofing

16     sessions.  These are matter of course conversations, and they supply this

17     material to me.  And when we're dealing with big fish of this kind, they

18     don't give me this kind of information.  I just don't see the logic of

19     it.

20             Arkan was listed in my indictment for Bijeljina before Bijeljina

21     was deleted from the indictment.  In the pre-trial proceedings, and in

22     accordance with the decision of the previous Trial Chamber when evidence

23     is called on the pattern of conduct and the joint criminal enterprise,

24     witnesses are called who saw Arkan's crimes in Bijeljina, and I have to

25     defend myself against those accusations.

Page 15066

 1             You have seen how much I'm insisting on the distance between

 2     Arkan and myself which was there.  I did not investigate Arkan's crimes

 3     outside of the scope of Bijeljina and Zvornik because I was not

 4     interested in them in the scope of this trial, and you introduced into

 5     the record pursuant to Rule 92 quater various statements, including a

 6     statement by a JNA colonel.  I think that his name is no longer under

 7     seal, but I'm not sure so I'm not going to mention his name.  He died, at

 8     any rate.

 9             You admitted into evidence his statement where he testifies about

10     Arkan's crimes in Erdut, Dalj, and other places, the execution by firing

11     squad of some prisoners.  I never dealt with it.  I am presenting this

12     now to give you a better picture of how my record of my trial is --

13     contains a lot of information about Arkan, because I'm held responsible

14     for Arkan's crimes here, and why should I accept that?

15             Now let me move on to item number four, which is even more

16     important.  I --

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a second.  So you have now

18     spoken about the third and fourth question, which in fact is only one

19     question.  So if I understand you rightly, you are saying --

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] [Previous

21     translation continues] ... dealt with item number four.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.  Well, please finish

23     about the fourth, and then I'll be able to tell you what I think.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, after my cross-examination of

25     the witness that we heard last week, in the Serbian media Arkan's deputy,

Page 15067

 1     Borislav Pelevic, spoke to the Serbian media confirming that he was in

 2     Zvornik at the relevant time and that he was in Bijeljina.  So he took

 3     part in the operations there together with Arkan, and he claims that I am

 4     trying to shift the blame on Arkan.  He claims that I am accusing Arkan

 5     of killing 20 Muslims, saying that this is all a heinous lie on my part

 6     and that I am, in fact, attacking him, and so on and so forth.  I had to

 7     put this to you now because I do not have a way to respond to Arkan's

 8     deputy in the Serbian press.

 9             I did not accused Arkan of anything.  I was trying to put

10     distance between myself and Arkan, and Arkan's crimes have been

11     attributed to me.  I didn't even know that Arkan killed 20 Muslim

12     civilians in Zvornik before I read it in my indictment.  Arkan did not

13     report to me.

14             Can I go on since --

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen is doing his early

17     morning callisthenics here in the courtroom.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why do you wish to intervene?

19             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I wish to put on record that the accused is using

20     the Court's time to engage in public relations activities.  He is making

21     statements which really are directed at the press.  He's responding to

22     something that's taking place in the press which has nothing to do with

23     this case, and in my respectful submission that should not be allowed.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right.  So, Mr. Seselj, you are

25     now telling us that after last week's hearing the press in your country,

Page 15068

 1     in a story, an article, spoke about things which had been said by the

 2     number two of Arkan, Borislav Pelevic - I'm not sure how to pronounce

 3     it - who allegedly would have confirmed that he was indeed in Bijeljina

 4     and in Zvornik, but that yourself question -- implicate Arkan in a way to

 5     dodge your own liability.

 6             Mr. Marcussen says it's -- it's not to be done.  So what did you

 7     actually want to do?

 8             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I also have something to say.

 9     Maybe there is a nexus, but not on the basis of things which may have

10     been published in the press and which shouldn't be discussed in this

11     trial.  We can't start discussing everything which is written by

12     journalists everywhere in the world every day, Mr. Seselj.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Therefore, Mr. Seselj --

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I didn't really bother you

15     about the information from the press related to my name all that often

16     where I faced a situation where I have to just watch everything that is

17     said about me with my hands tied behind my back, and people just write

18     anything that comes to their minds, anything they want to.

19             This is important because it pertains to the trial itself.  Let

20     me try to explain to you the nexus, Judge Lattanzi.  The nexus is very

21     simple here.

22             Arkan's crimes in Zvornik and Bijeljina have been attributed to

23     me here, while the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party were in

24     Zvornik in April.  The only crime against the Muslim civilians is the

25     crime that is -- that was committed by Arkan.  There were no other

Page 15069

 1     crimes.

 2             In the indictment I'm charged with some other crimes in late May

 3     and throughout June, but this has nothing to do with me because the

 4     Serbian Radical Party volunteers were no longer in Zvornik.  This is the

 5     only time when my volunteers were in Zvornik, and Arkan's crimes were

 6     attributed to me as part of the joint criminal enterprise.

 7             Now, Arkan's deputy, Borislav Pelevic, was not prosecuted

 8     criminally at all.  Why?  Because his party was an instrument of

 9     Djindjic's regime until the end of 2003.  Well, we can see more of the

10     callisthenics on the part of Mr. Marcussen, but I would really like to

11     deal with this because this is a serious matter which has bearing on

12     myself and on this trial.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wouldn't it be better to let

14     him finish what he has to say and then you can reply?

15             MR. MARCUSSEN:  My point is that there's nothing to reply to.

16     There's not going to be anything said which is going to be replied to.

17     Either the accused can bring his evidence during his defence case on

18     these issues, or he can explain the relevance as he was asked to.  He's

19     not.  He's now diving into some other conspiracy theory trying to

20     attribute responsibility to other people.  The case is very clear.  These

21     charges are being laid against the accused in the indictment for a number

22     of reasons.  One of them is that they are part of a joint criminal

23     enterprise.  He's therefore charged with those crimes.  It's very clear

24     to the accused.  He's simply engaging in a dialogue that is not intended

25     to inform the Trial Chamber of anything but is part of public debate

Page 15070

 1     going on outside the courtroom, and we have wasted enormous amounts of

 2     time on these sort of things in the past, and there really is no point to

 3     continuing with that.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, you see no

 5     nexus.  I personally see one, and I will explain how and why.

 6             Before coming to the hearing this morning, I was looking on the

 7     site of the Tribunal, last information we could [indiscernible], and I

 8     discover that in Sarajevo there is a new indictment by the competent

 9     Chamber versus military staff, military personnel, battalion commander

10     who has to do with the Srebrenica case, which means that both in Croatia

11     and in Serbia and in Bosnia-Herzegovina the courts continue to

12     investigate and continue to prosecute the authors of those crimes,

13     whatever their level of responsibility may be, specifying that in

14     The Hague we have accused who were in the highest responsibility posts,

15     but there are others.  And therefore the deputy of Mr. Arkan, I don't

16     know what he did or what -- reproach to him, but it may even be that

17     there will be no indictment against him.  It may happen that there will

18     be one.  Therefore, there's always a nexus.  Therefore, we have seen a

19     week ago also that trial took place in Belgrade where accused were

20     sentenced.  This judgement is now being translated, and I'm waiting for

21     the translation to see exactly on -- for which reasons these people have

22     been sentenced.  What was their -- how they belonged to the Territorial

23     Defence.  Were they voluntary?  Were they a member of the JNA?  I don't

24     know.  This judgement will enable me to better understand what happened.

25     Now I'm just discovering that a person who was a deputy of Arkan was in

Page 15071

 1     Zvornik, therefore it's interesting.  I'm not just going to brush this

 2     away because you say there is no nexus.  I say there is a nexus because I

 3     am a professional Judge specialised in criminal law, and that's the

 4     difference.

 5             So, Mr. Seselj, would you please finish what you wanted to say.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what Mr. Marcussen

 7     says, that I'm shifting the blame to another, it's really heinous.  I

 8     never have done that.  I never tried to shift blame on other people, but

 9     I have the right to show that there was a distance between myself and

10     some other people.  You cannot ascribe to me any kind of closeness within

11     a joint criminal enterprise with people with whom I was on hostile terms,

12     and actually it was a threat to my life because of that hostility.  There

13     were open threats that I would be killed, but I'll leave that aside.

14             What Judge Lattanzi insisted on, the issue of the nexus,

15     Mr. Marcussen did not let me finish.

16             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Excuse me, but I have to ask you

17     a question.  Do you believe really, honestly, that these matters, these

18     questions which you are asking are administrative matters or questions,

19     and not questions which have to do with the substance of the case?  Such

20     aside the question of what is published in the press and which from this

21     point of view poses the problem of whether we should talk about it here.

22     But do you really believe that these are matters which are administrative

23     questions which should be discussed during a hearing which is devoted to

24     administrative matters?  I have some problem with this.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I think it is an

Page 15072

 1     administrative issue.  This is a Status Conference of sorts, and it is

 2     your duty, Judges, to hear of my health status and my mental status,

 3     after all.  This is not a trial that is conducted out of time and out of

 4     space.  This trial affects its whole context in realtime, and it is

 5     affected in turn by its context, because you cannot eliminate that

 6     influence of your context.

 7             And let me finish with my effort to prove the nexus where I was

 8     interrupted by Mr. Marcussen.

 9             Less than two years ago Tomislav Nikolic received Arkan's deputy

10     Borislav Pelevic into the Serbian Radical Party, and the latter assisted

11     him later on in his attempted putsch.  And a couple of days ago I learned

12     that in addition to the meeting between Tomislav Nikolic and

13     David Tolbert in Budapest that while the parliamentary Assembly of the

14     council of Europe met in 2007 that Tomislav Nikolic met with

15     Carla Del Ponte, and the eyewitnesses say that they were engaged in a

16     very cordial conversation.  This is my information that's been verified,

17     and I am trying to tell you, Judges, that behind the screens espionage,

18     political factors play a role in this trial, how they affect this trial,

19     in a way obstructing it, in fact.

20             I faced the western intellegence services, the Serbian tycoons,

21     and the Serbian mafia.  The King of the Serbian tobacco mafia, Sane, who

22     instructed Borislav Pelevic, and I'm trying to show this to you.  Arkan's

23     deputy who himself admits that he took part in the fighting in Zvornik

24     and Bijeljina is now trying to blame me of shifting the blame to Arkan,

25     and it says in my indictment, You are charged with what Arkan did.  This

Page 15073

 1     is an administrative issue.  What kind of an issue is it?  Perhaps it's

 2     not an administrative issue, perhaps you're right, but I had to raise it.

 3     I couldn't raise it in the course of our examination of a witness.  That

 4     is an ideal situation.  We don't have a witness.  We have enough time for

 5     me to share this with you.

 6             If you think I didn't have to share this with you, well, that's a

 7     different matter.  I will not share anything with you in the future, but

 8     I felt this need to tell you this.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I wish to stay on

10     administrative questions, and I wanted to ask you what is the conclusion

11     of points three and four?  Is this a verbal motion which you are making

12     to request the Chamber applying the rules, obliges the Prosecution to

13     disclose to you all the materials or elements which have to do with the

14     negotiations between Arkan and the Prosecutor's office, possibly with

15     Borislav Pelevic, his deputy who met Mrs. Carla Del Ponte, according to

16     you, yourself, or even Mr. Tolbert, is this what you are actually asking

17     for by a verbal motion, in which case that is indeed an administrative

18     question?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Precisely, Mr. President.  Your

20     interpretation is correct.  I said that the fourth item is connected with

21     the third.  The fourth item just provides additional arguments to support

22     my request from item number three, to show how serious this issue is for

23     me.  For me, it's very serious.  And I think that the Prosecution must

24     provide me with this information, and that they have to give me

25     information finally about the meeting between David Tolbert and Nikolic.

Page 15074

 1     They tried to deny it, and later on they just glossed it over.  And I --

 2     they also have to give me information about the meeting between

 3     Tomislav Nikolic and Carla Del Ponte, if there are any notes about this

 4     meeting.  It is not mentioned in Carla Del Ponte's book, unfortunately.

 5             May I now move on to item number five?

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right.  Okay.  Point five.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen is in a semireclining

 8     position.  I wasn't sure whether he was going to get up again or not.

 9             Gentlemen, Judges, you've already been informed that the Registry

10     rejected my request to hold a press conference prior to the elections in

11     the municipality of Odzaci.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.  I have to

13     interrupt you because I wanted to move this point -- to talk about this

14     point under another angle, and I wanted to tell you straight away what

15     was my point of view so you can develop your own point of view then.

16             A week ago we were seized of your verbal motion in the framework

17     of administrative questions since now you are doing verbal motions, and

18     you don't have a [indiscernible] collaborator who are preparing your

19     motions, therefore, you do so -- you present them verbally, and we have

20     to hearing for administrative matters.

21             A week ago the Chamber told you that you had to follow procedure,

22     which is to say, one, seize the Registrar; two, await his decision; and

23     two [as interpreted], eventually, if it is not in your favour, you can

24     question it with the President.

25             A week ago the Chamber told you that taking into account the

Page 15075

 1     dates it was an emergency, an urgent matter, and myself a week ago, on

 2     Thursday and Friday, liaising with the Court Officer wanted to know

 3     whether the Registrar had made a decision.

 4             When I arrived at the crack of dawn at my office, I still wasn't

 5     apprised of this decision.  When I arrived around 6.00 in my Chambers, I

 6     opened my computer, and I discovered with great surprise that the

 7     spokesperson of the Tribunal - I have the document here - had indicated

 8     that the Registrar had rejected the request, motion, without explaining

 9     the reasons, and that the accused was now in a position to see the

10     President.  But what I disliked intensely was that the spokeswoman who

11     normally has three different hats - because there are three different

12     organs there, Registry, the Chambers, and the Prosecution, the

13     Prosecutor's office - had told the press who had quoted the Tribunal

14     rejected the request, the Tribunal, and I say the Tribunal rejected

15     nothing.  It is the Registrar who rejected a request; not the Tribunal.

16     The Registrar, who is one of the organs of the Tribunal.  And now there's

17     a play on words.

18             Therefore, while the spokeswoman should have known that you had

19     this possibility technically speaking to seize eventually the Chamber,

20     and I find extremely unpleasant, number one, not to have been apprised of

21     the content of the decision; and, two, to discover by the spokeswoman

22     that it was the Tribunal who made the decision.  There we are.

23             So I wanted this to be put on record because at least -- the

24     least of things by even courtesy, politeness, would be to inform the

25     Chamber of the content of the decision, and to date I still do not know

Page 15076

 1     at all what were the reasons why it was rejected.

 2             Right.  Mr. Seselj.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'll be very brief

 4     on that issue.  I requested the legal officer, Registrar of this Tribunal

 5     to find the decisions of the Registrar at the beginning of 2004 and end

 6     of 2003 and to provide it to the members of the Chamber in English and in

 7     Serbian to me for me to quote something very briefly, since the Registrar

 8     in this decision, which he rejects my request or motion for a press

 9     conference, to hold a press conference, and the main argument he puts

10     forward there in favour of his decision is that for seven months I have

11     been -- I was prohibited at the end of 2003 and beginning of 2004 all

12     communication with my family, with my friends, with my associates,

13     banning me from having any visits, and so on.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, because of what I

15     said just now, I have just been given the ruling.  So please proceed.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Here we have it, the decision which

17     was provided to me on the 9th of January, 2004.  On page 2, the last two

18     paragraphs.  Bearing in mind the fact that the activities in the

19     post-electoral period, that is to say, the elections in Serbian had

20     already been held, my party had a large number of votes, a third of the

21     deputies in the Assembly.  So bearing in mind that the post-electoral

22     events will probably lead to the fact that the political party and the

23     supporters of the accused will ask for his further engagement in

24     post-political activities linked to the parliamentary elections in Serbia

25     held on the 28th of December, 2003, and considering that great attention

Page 15077

 1     is placed on public information and information about the fact that the

 2     accused is in a position whereby he can help the campaign without

 3     impediment for the parliamentary elections in Serbia while these were

 4     currently underway or post-political activities, in both cases as a

 5     consequence undermine the mandates of this International Tribunal to

 6     contribute to the repeated establishment and prevents a peace in the

 7     former Yugoslavia.

 8             So my contacts with the party with respect to a possible

 9     formation of the government undermine, as it says here, the establishment

10     of peace in Yugoslavia, and this was signed by David Tolbert, and

11     Tomislav Nikolic met him in Budapest.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters note they did not have the

13     text of the decision.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As of the 9th of February, the

15     decision is repeated and adds that that bearing in mind that at the

16     parliamentary elections in Serbian - and that's to be found on page 2 -

17     held on the 20th of December, 2003, the party led by the accused won 82

18     of the 250 seats in the Serbian Assembly, and so and so forth.  It goes

19     on to speak about my involvement, and so on and so forth.

20             So you can see the kind of arguments that are set out here and

21     the kind of arguments that are used whereby my basic human rights and

22     civil rights have been denied and placed in jeopardy.  They say I must

23     not contact, have any contacts with my party, not to give them any

24     suggestions as to who to negotiate with, and so on and so forth, about a

25     post-electoral coalition government.  And now referring to that decision

Page 15078

 1     from 2003 and 2004, they are expounding their decision now to prevent me

 2     from contacting the public with respect to the local elections in the

 3     municipality of Odzaci.

 4             So that is the model according to which the Registrar is working,

 5     and I have been exposed to that kind of work for seven years now, so you

 6     needn't be surprised why I use the words I did when I wrote to the

 7     secretary -- to the Registrar using the words I used.  No human being can

 8     take conduct of this kind those were the issues I wish to raise, and I

 9     have two more in this regard.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, what I would like

11     to know is whether you have referred this to the President of the

12     Tribunal to challenge the decision of the Registrar.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, no I didn't want to raise the

14     issue because I knew that there was a plot afoot.  I tried at the

15     Status Conference to raise these issues on several occasions, and every

16     time Judge Agius interrupted me, shouted at me.  So you needn't be

17     surprised why I retaliated the only way I could, with a nice title

18     mentioning his name in one of my books.  If you look at the transcript

19     from the Status Conferences, you'll see when I raise an issue, this is

20     it.  When I raise the issue of the Registrar's conduct towards me - and

21     the Status Conference is the main place in which I can complain about my

22     conditions in detention - he goes mad, goes quite red in the face, blue

23     in the face, and then attacks me in all manner of ways and then switches

24     off my microphone.  So what I respect with this Trial Chamber is you've

25     never switched my microphone off when you don't like what I'm saying.

Page 15079

 1     And he goes quite mad, switches off my microphone and seals my lips in

 2     that way.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  What about point

 4     six?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] When we finished with the

 6     examination of the witness last week, I was taken to the -- to prison as

 7     usual, and there was a new incident awaiting me there.  It was staged to

 8     my mind to support the negative decision taken by the Registry.  I did

 9     not cause the incident.  When I entered the prison building, the guard

10     who met me in the prison told me that I had to rub my hands with some

11     chemical that was beside the door, the explanation given that this was a

12     disinfectant of some sort aimed at preventing the new flu from spreading.

13             First of all, I'm not somebody who moved around town, walked

14     around cafes or the streets and then came into the prison.  I came from

15     the court building, and I wasn't able to shake hands with anyone here.

16     The guards tie me up at the entrance and untie me when they bring me to

17     the floor here.  The Trial Chamber members are five metres away from me

18     so couldn't affect me.  The Prosecution which is far more dangerous in

19     that sense is 15 metres away from me.  The Registry is quite a distance

20     from me and so is the guard here.  I have absolutely no contact with

21     anybody, and now they want me to rub my hands with some chemical

22     substance.  I said, Give me a tap and running water and soap, and I'll

23     wash my hands.  No, they insisted on this chemical.  Now, they have been

24     poisoning me for years here, and they say that my liver has suffered, the

25     doctors say because I'm fat.  I'm not fat at all.  I can get up and show

Page 15080

 1     you.  I'm not thin, but I'm certainly not fat, so that can't be a reason.

 2     So medicine can't explain why, but I don't want to use any chemicals to

 3     rub on my skin.  So then they took me to an isolating -- an isolation

 4     cell in solitary confinement.  They locked me up until the following day

 5     at 1.00.  Then they unlocked the door.  No explanation was given for that

 6     either.  I assumed that they unlocked the door because my friends learnt

 7     about all this, that I had been placed in isolation.  How they learnt

 8     about it, I don't know.  When I rang up my home my wife told me that she

 9     had heard that I was placed in a solitary confinement cell, that I was

10     isolated.  So that's what they did, they created an incident out of

11     nothing.  Who can force me to rub an unknown chemical with my own hands

12     on my own skin, why?  I don't want to do that.  I have a tap in my cell.

13     I have a shower, and that is enough.  And I've been vaccinated against

14     swine flu to boot.  I was one of the first to be vaccinated against the

15     flu.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, regarding this

17     point, I will tell you the following because it is a topic that I'm very

18     well aware of because I dealt with it.

19             As you are aware, at one point in time in Europe there was an

20     increase in cases of swine flu, and all local health authorities have

21     dealt with this by taking the relevant measures, and within this Tribunal

22     and within the detention unit, the Registrar worked on this issue and

23     worked with local health authorities, and it has been decided to install

24     some devices to wash one's hands because it seems that the virus is

25     transmitted through contact, and so this device is also just outside this

Page 15081

 1     Tribunal.

 2             Why did they force you to rub your hands and wash your hands?

 3     Well, perhaps you can remember what happened last week.  My colleague,

 4     and I hope that he doesn't have flu, was coughing.  We do not know

 5     whether amongst us others could have been affect by the virus.  But at

 6     one point you put on the ELMO a document that was a statement from the

 7     ex-JNA colleague.  This document was touched by the usher.  We also gave

 8     to the usher some documents, which means that this document was handled

 9     by the Judges, by the usher, and then the document was given back to you,

10     which means that if one of the Judges is infected by the virus and if one

11     of those Judges touches a document and then this document is put before

12     you and you touch it, then the virus can actually move on, hence the need

13     for you to rub your hands with this chemical substance.  I do not know

14     the composition of this substance, but this -- the objective is to

15     protect yourself, to protect the security officers, and to protect your

16     fellow inmates and to protect the guards of the detention unit.  So this

17     is for protection means.

18             Perhaps we are doing too much, but it's better to be safe than

19     sorry, because in my own country last week 28 people died of swine flu or

20     of the flu virus.

21             So this is the only answer I can give you.  As for point number

22     seven, please proceed.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to say

24     something before point six.  You and your Judges, colleagues, are here on

25     a voluntary basis, all members of the Prosecution, too, and the

Page 15082

 1     Registrar, too, and members of the guards are here voluntarily.  If you

 2     wanted to, you could be elsewhere.  The only person who is not here

 3     voluntarily is me.  I am a prisoner here.  And what holds true for you in

 4     terms of your work responsibility need not be a responsibility for me.

 5     They could have tied my feet and hands with chains.  They could place me

 6     on the floor, shut my mouth up and rub me all over with this chemical

 7     substance.  It is my elementary right whether I'm going to use a

 8     medicament or not.  I was vaccinated twice last month the first time

 9     against the seasonal flu, and the second time against swine flu.  And I

10     inquire myself when the flu vaccinations are going to start every year

11     because I don't need to catch the flu here.  It would hamper me in many

12     of my activities.  So I inquire about that every year, and I have the flu

13     vaccine every year, and that is sufficient defence from all types of flu,

14     from both types of flu.  I don't know what affects this chemical can

15     have.  What you put on your skin enters through the skin into the body

16     nobody has given me a reasonable explanation as to what is wrong with my

17     liver.  Some factors have been upset.  Even doctors from Serbia say it's

18     not alarming but something is happening to my liver, so why would I now

19     expose myself to new chemicals, new chemical substances?  It's enough

20     that I am being fed by food that you would not even give to pigs.  You

21     should see the kind of food they bring into the prison, and I think even

22     the healthiest person will fall sick after eating the food.  Potatoes

23     that are cooked, then packed, then frozen, then defrosted for hundreds of

24     years in the civilised world, defrosted potatoes are not used because

25     nitrates become nitrites during the night and they are poisonous once

Page 15083

 1     potatoes are defrosted.  I'm not going to do that now.  If they take me

 2     to a tap and give me a piece of soap, I will be happy to wash my hands.

 3     But I refused to use chemicals, and they can keep me in a solitary

 4     confinement cell, until time immemorial.  Now last time when I handed

 5     over the three newly published books of mine, Judge Harhoff asked me to

 6     provide them in electronic form, and this was repeated by the Registrar

 7     in contact with my case manager.  However, I inquired.  I called up the

 8     legal advisor to Boris Aleksic, and he -- my legal associate, and said

 9     that electronic version is with Mr. Krasic and Mr. Jerkovic and that they

10     are willing to disclose it to the Tribunal once it normalises their

11     status as legal advisors and when they can serve me and assist me in The

12     Hague Tribunal.  And when they are able to come and see me, they will

13     bring in the electronic version of those three books, and that's all I

14     had to say today.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             Mr. Marcussen, any administrative issues from your point of view?

17             MR. MARCUSSEN:  No additional issues.  I thought in light of the

18     second point that the accused made that he supplemented his arguments as

19     to 92 quinquies.  If I may just state one brief thing on the record for

20     Your Honours' consideration in that regard.

21             It's the Prosecution's submission that this rule is, to a large

22     extent, is a codification to the existing case law.  The existing

23     jurisprudence is somewhat wider and continues to exist in addition to the

24     rule, but the rule, as it exists now, is merely a codification of

25     important parts of the jurisprudence, and therefore the underlying

Page 15084

 1     principles will be applicable even if the rule itself does not apply

 2     here.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Marcussen.

 4             Mr. Seselj, from a personal point of view, I would like to touch

 5     upon two issues.

 6             First point, the books.  Last week you gave us books, the content

 7     of which I do not know.  I have looked at the books, and they have 109,

 8     110, 111.  It looks therefore that you have written 111 books of the

 9     sort.

10             Secondly, I could see that from an external point of view, they

11     were very well-drafted, that they were very user-friendly, that you have

12     a way of finding the pages very quickly.  So everything is well done.

13             Given that those books are in the Cyrillic alphabet, I do not

14     know what is their content.  I have seen that sometimes my name or the

15     name of my colleagues do appear, so I drew the conclusion that some

16     decisions that we've handed down are incorporated in this book, but I

17     could not look into this any further.

18             I've looked at the cover page, and you had said to us that it had

19     to do with three of our colleagues.  And from then on I've been waiting

20     for the Registry to give us a summary translation of the content of those

21     books.  However, I asked myself the following question, and I didn't

22     really talk about this with my colleague because it's really from a

23     personal point of view.  As a Judge I see that you are writing books on

24     Judges, and that you may well be able to write a book on myself, on my

25     other two colleagues, and by doing so you put Judges under pressure,

Page 15085

 1     whereas in fact a Judge should be in a position to work in a serene

 2     manner.  A Judge could feel, Oh, well, I may be exposed to having a book

 3     published, and there could be some sort of catchy title to that book

 4     involving what I'm doing.  So this is the problem.  And I will not push

 5     this reasoning any further, because I do not know what those books are

 6     made of, but this could be subject of concern.  So this was my first

 7     point.

 8             Second point, and I will have to go back in time for the

 9     following reasons:  Last week we witnessed a difficult hearing because at

10     some stage you challenged the witness, and you challenged his or her

11     counsel, and so the Prosecutor raised some objections, and the counsel

12     did as well, and there were harsh words that were exchanged.

13             So what do I have at hand to make sure that we have a peaceful

14     trial as the President of this Chamber, because I'm supposed to police

15     this trial.  I only have two means at hand.  I have a blue button which I

16     can press to stop you from speaking to the outside world, but not within

17     the courtroom, and when I press on this button I'm sometimes wondering

18     whether it's going work or not.  So this is a very basic system, because

19     I cannot stop you from shouting.

20             The second means that I have at hand is to send you out of the

21     courtroom, but there again this is a serious decision, and I have to look

22     into this carefully, and I have to take into account all sorts of

23     factors.  The image of international justice, as well as the physical

24     safety of the security officer who will escort you outside of the

25     courtroom or who will expel you out of the courtroom.  And I want to make

Page 15086

 1     sure that no physical violence will happen.  And in order to expel

 2     someone from the courtroom you can also use tear gas, but also know the

 3     condition of your lungs, and in your specific case this would not be

 4     advisable.

 5             I also have to take into account the fact that you don't have

 6     several officers, security officers around you.  Today you only have one.

 7     So I will have to take into account all those criteria.  In a split

 8     second I have to make a decision while you are shouting and the counsel

 9     on the other side is shouting.  So this is very difficult for me.  And

10     this is what I experienced last week, and I do not want to experience

11     this again.

12             And after this brief of going back in time, I would like to then

13     move to a question that has already been ruled upon by the Chamber.  In

14     order to avoid this the Prosecutor in its various writings said, you

15     should assign counsel to Mr. Seselj in order to avoid those problems.

16             It is true.  That would be the easy way out.  It is very easy for

17     a Judge not to have to deal directly with an accused and to only deal

18     with a counsel who is amenable, who is courteous, and everything happens

19     in the best possible case, but this is not the way I conceive justice.  I

20     believe that justice should be rendered while the accused is there, and

21     if the accused is in a position to defend himself, he or she should be in

22     a position to take the floor.  And this is why I've always been in favour

23     of this solution which is to allow you to defend yourself.  This is a

24     right that has been given to you.  But with rights you also have

25     obligations, and it is your duty to explain calmly what you want to put

Page 15087

 1     across like you did for the seven points, and when you are calm I can be

 2     calm, and I can focus on the substance of your points.  Otherwise, I have

 3     to deal with law and order within the courtroom, which will stop me or

 4     prevent me from listening to the substance of your points and the

 5     substance of this trial, because these are evidences that are brought by

 6     the Prosecutor, and these are the statements and the evidence given by

 7     witnesses.  Everything else is a waste of time.

 8             The fact that we did not assign counsel to you was very difficult

 9     as a decision, given that part of the doctrine states that an accused

10     should be assisted by counsel.  So this was not an easy decision that was

11     taken, but we did make this decision.  And I can compare your situation

12     with other accused.  You are the only one to have this sort of behaviour.

13     The late Milosevic was never shouting, was never raising his voice when

14     in the courtroom.  Every time Mr. Karadzic appears I'm trying as much as

15     possible to listen to the hearings, and we are dealing with a courteous

16     man.  He doesn't raise his voice.  And everything happens in the best

17     possible scenario.

18             So could you please try in future to only take the floor when

19     necessary.  Last week you took the floor, and it was really spot on.

20     Whereon you reminded us that we have to be careful that in Zvornik the

21     Serb Radical Party did not really have a base because Zvornik is in

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and you were very right to intervene and to remind us

23     of this point, because a Judge could actually make a mistake by thinking

24     that the HDZ from Croatia had implanted political parties in the Republic

25     of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and perhaps that the -- perhaps the Serb Radical

Page 15088

 1     Party had done the same.  So you were very spot on there.  But when you

 2     take the floor just to say that one should not listen to so-and-so or

 3     that the witness is a bogus witness, you really have to avoid this sort

 4     of thing, and you should take the floor on the substance of this trial,

 5     because this is what is important here.  And I really do hope and I beg

 6     you to remain calm, not to interrupt whoever is speaking and to speak

 7     only when necessary, and then you will see, everyone will listen more

 8     carefully to what you have to say.  Because when you have all sorts of

 9     words, of harsh words exchanged, then this could actually be detrimental

10     to your trial.

11             I did not ask to be put on this trial.  We were asked -- or I was

12     asked because there was no further solutions.  The Chamber had basically

13     thrown in a towel.  So I did accept, even if I have another trial going

14     on at the same time.

15             Last week, Mr. Seselj, I arrived at 6.00 a.m., I started the day

16     at 9.00 a.m. in this courtroom, and I finished at 19.30.  So I was here

17     in this building for 12 hours.  I did not have time to eat.  It is

18     exhausting.  And then we have incidents within the courtroom, and this is

19     what I want to avoid in the future.

20             So please listen to what I have to say.  It is in your own

21     interest, but also in everyone's interests, even if you challenge the

22     legality of this Tribunal, but you've already said so, this is not

23     surprising for anyone.  I remain courteous.  I listen to you, and some

24     people may feel that I give you the floor too often, I listen too much to

25     you, but I really want to say the following:  Mrs. Carla Del Ponte,

Page 15089

 1     talking about tracing criminals in page 593 of her book, when she talks

 2     about pressures on witnesses, she says that she talked about this with

 3     Mr. Kostunica.  Mr. Kostunica had said that as part of the Tolimir case

 4     pressures had been put on some witnesses, and Mrs. Carla Del Ponte

 5     explained that she was going to listen to this point of view, which means

 6     that those -- my two colleagues actually took a step back from my

 7     position.  This is what she said.  But why am I checking on this?

 8     Because the decision of the Robinson Chamber has to be effective on our

 9     Chamber.  And so when you are challenging the Prosecutor on witnesses, I

10     have to deal with that, even if Mrs. Carla Del Ponte doesn't agree with

11     me.

12             So I have a very difficult mission here which has been the

13     subject of a protest from the former Prosecutor, from yourself, coupled

14     with a behaviour in the courtroom.  It means that sometimes I really

15     wonder what I'm doing here.  If I'm here it is to make sure that

16     international justice is rendered as much as possible and as well as

17     possible, but all the protagonists have to uphold the rules, and they

18     must at least have a courteous behaviour towards each other.  So please

19     try to remain courteous, and this is how we will best listen to you.  So

20     this is what I wanted to say to you, Mr. Seselj.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I say something?  May I say

22     something in this regard?  First of all, I would like to assure you,

23     Mr. President, that whenever you decide to expel me from the courtroom,

24     that there will be no incidents, because I don't want to fight the

25     guards.  It's the armed force of the United Nations, and if ten guards

Page 15090

 1     are not enough, they'll bring in another 20 or 30.

 2             Perhaps at times I might give them the pleasure, yet again, to

 3     have to carry me whenever they violate my rights as a prisoner, but you

 4     may rest assured that every time you decide to expel me from the

 5     courtroom there will be no incidents.

 6             You say that I shout from one side of the courtroom and the

 7     Prosecution shouts from the other side.  I am quite amazed that you have

 8     not admonished the Prosecution that you might expel them from the

 9     courtroom.  If you look at the transcripts and if you do a statistical

10     analysis to see who tried to interrupt whom, you will see that the

11     Prosecution tried to interrupt me much more often than I did them.

12             I also treated the witness very properly.  I'm always very

13     careful when I'm dealing with the witnesses.  Even if those witnesses are

14     false witnesses, I'm still very nice to them.

15             Let me remind you that the incident occurred because the lawyer

16     who entered the courtroom with the witness acted improperly.  And when I

17     started shouting, it was because he intervened improperly in my

18     examination, because the only right of that lawyer was to protect the

19     witness from incriminating himself and nothing else, and he started

20     making political speeches.  At one point Madam Lattanzi drew his

21     attention to the fact that I was right and let me remind you of that.  I

22     don't see any incidents there apart from the improper conduct on the part

23     of the lawyer.

24             Secondly, well, this is your rhetorical A, B, C.  In every

25     courtroom lawyers try to achieve the best possible affect with their

Page 15091

 1     speeches.  Sometimes you say something in a raised voice, sometimes you

 2     lower your voice, but you have to admit that I never use any abusive

 3     language in the courtroom, and you never had to stop me without me

 4     complying with your request.  I always stop when you tell me to.  So I

 5     really can't see what the point of your remark is.  I am always awaiting

 6     your decision, and if you decide to impose counsel on me, you know what

 7     my response will be.

 8             I am not afraid of anything.  I cannot be taken by surprise here

 9     by anything, and nothing frightens me.  Through this trial I have been

10     able to achieve all my goals.  Everybody in the world knows that this --

11     that I'm tried on trumped up charges by the Prosecution.  There -- there

12     are no foundations for the charges and for any conviction.  As far as I'm

13     concerned, this trial is over.  You can do whatever you want.  You can

14     expel me from the courtroom.  I will never come back.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, I don't have any

16     intention of expelling you out of the courtroom.  What I wanted to say is

17     using the tone you're using today, this is fine.  I'm not asking for

18     more.

19             Now, it is time to finish.  We will meet next week for the

20     hearing which will take place Tuesday, and I believe that will be in the

21     afternoon, after 1400, quarter past 2.00.  So Witness VS-29.  So I wish

22     you a pleasant day for the rest of the day.

23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.34 a.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 26th day

25                           of January, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.