1 Tuesday, 27 March 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just two points before we continue with the

7 examination-in-chief.

8 First, it is absolutely essential that the evidence of this

9 witness be completed today, and the Chamber expects full cooperation from

10 all parties in that regard.

11 Secondly, Mr. Greaves, the registrar, with her customary

12 efficiency has investigated the matter you brought to our attention and it

13 can be easily put down to a miscommunication and misunderstanding.

14 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 WITNESS: WITNESS D [Resumed]

18 Examined by Mr. Mundis: [Continued]

19 Q. Witness, yesterday you were describing the geographic layout of

20 your village in relation to the town of Prijedor. I would ask the usher

21 show a copy of the map that has been distributed to the witness. If we

22 can briefly do that, please.

23 Witness, can you see the map that's been placed on the ELMO to

24 your left?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And do you -- you recognise your village on this map?

2 A. I do. Donja Ljubija.

3 Q. And to your knowledge, does this map accurately reflect the

4 various villages and towns that are depicted on the map?

5 A. I wouldn't say so, really. It looks as if from Prijedor towards

6 Rakovcani which is -- which I don't think is correct, because it is likely

7 more to the left, not exactly in that direction. Hambarine is okay, Donja

8 Ljubija, and Ljubija.

9 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Witness. If the usher could retrieve the

10 copy of that map, please.

11 Yesterday when we completed your testimony, we were about to move

12 into the conditions in Room 4. Can you please describe for the Court the

13 conditions in Room 4 when you first were placed in that room, please?

14 A. In the room which was overcrowded, people sat on pallets, wooden

15 pallets, some sat on the floor. To the right of the door there was a

16 small toilet and people were there too. It was terribly dirty because the

17 air was stale.

18 Q. Do you recall approximately how many people were in Room 4 when

19 you first arrived?

20 A. A few hundred.

21 Q. Witness, let's move on to the general conditions in Keraterm while

22 you were there. Can you please describe for the Court the sanitary

23 conditions as well as the food and access to water, those type of

24 conditions in the camp?

25 MR. VUCICEVIC: Objection to the form of the question. Calls for

1 a narrative answer, compounded question.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: "Can you describe the sanitary conditions as well

3 as the food and access?" You are saying he has asked several questions?

4 He's asking generally about the sanitary condition.

5 MR. VUCICEVIC: I was only objecting to the form of the question,

6 because it's a compounded question and invites the witness to give a

7 narration. That's all, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just simplify it.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Your Honour.

10 Q. Can you describe the sanitary conditions in Keraterm, please?

11 A. I can. The sewage was blocked. To reach the toilet you have to

12 wade there through the water of some ten centimetres deep, with excrement

13 flowing in it. When we went to eat, we always had the same dishes with

14 the same spoons, and vessels from which we ate our food. There was

15 already old, stale food. We rarely had an opportunity to wash those

16 vessels. In front of the room there was a barrel for water but -- when

17 there was water in it, we could wash ourselves, but there was seldom water

18 in it. To the toilet, we could go, depending on the situation in the camp

19 itself. At times we could go freely. At times they sent us in an

20 organised manner. And at times we could not go there at all.

21 Q. Were there facilities available to wash your clothing?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Can you please briefly describe for the court the conditions with

24 respect to meal times?

25 A. We had one meal a day, if there was food for everybody, and if we

1 were allowed to go to eat.

2 Q. What type of food were you served on those occasions when you were

3 allowed to eat?

4 A. One could hardly call it food. It was water with a leaf or two,

5 or perhaps pasta, a slice of bread.

6 Q. Witness, shortly after your arrival at Keraterm, did you become

7 aware of the camp structure with respect to personnel in the camp?

8 A. I didn't understand the question.

9 Q. Were there guards in the camp?

10 A. There were, yes. Do you mean the ethnic structure?

11 Q. No. I'm referring to the organisational structure of the camp

12 personnel. Were the guards structured in any way to your knowledge during

13 the time that you were in Keraterm?

14 A. Yes. Some were in military and some in police uniforms.

15 Q. Were they organised into any kinds of shifts?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you describe how the shifts were organised, please?

18 A. 12 hours.

19 Q. To your knowledge, did there appear to be any type of command

20 structure within the shifts?

21 A. Yes. Every shift had its commander, and that includes the camp.

22 The camp also had a commander.

23 Q. Do you know how many shifts there were at the time that you were

24 in Keraterm?

25 A. I do not know exactly. I know only some of the shifts and what I

1 heard from others, but I'd rather not talk about that.

2 Q. Are you aware of who the shift commanders were at Keraterm during

3 the time that you were present there?

4 A. So for Damir Dosenovic, called Kajin, I'm sure, and as for the

5 others, only what I heard.

6 Q. The person that you've referred to as Kajin, did you know him

7 prior to the time that you were in Keraterm?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. For approximately how long did you know him prior to your arrival

10 at Keraterm?

11 A. For about eight, nine years.

12 Q. During the course of those eight or nine years, approximately how

13 many times had you seen this person that you describe as Kajin?

14 A. Not very often, a few times.

15 Q. How did you come to know this person that you knew as Kajin?

16 A. Drasko, his brother, was my school pal.

17 Q. Witness, do you think that you could identify the person that you

18 knew as Kajin if you were to see him today?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Witness, I would ask you to take a look around the courtroom, and

21 if the person that you know as Kajin is present, if you could please

22 indicate that?

23 A. Yes, in the middle.

24 Q. Can you be more specific, please, with respect to the row that

25 he's sitting in and his place in that row?

1 A. In the back row, in the middle.

2 Q. Witness --

3 A. Not counting the police, of course.

4 Q. Witness, counting the positions from left to right in the back

5 row, can you please tell us which seat he's sitting in, please?

6 A. Second from left to right.

7 Q. Can you describe what he's wearing, please?

8 A. A suit, a white shirt, and a dotted tie.

9 Q. Witness, when you were counting the position that he was in, were

10 you including or excluding the police officers?

11 A. Excluding.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, I would ask that the record reflect that

13 the witness has properly identified the accused, Damir Dosen.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

15 MR. MUNDIS:

16 Q. Witness, during the time that you were in Keraterm, did you see

17 this person that you have identified as Kajin in the camp, and if so, how

18 frequently?

19 A. Yes, very often.

20 Q. Witness, while you were in the Keraterm camp, did you witness any

21 mistreatment of the other detainees?

22 A. Yes, and I also participated in one of them. That is, I was also

23 mistreated.

24 Q. Let's begin with the mistreatment of other detainees, not

25 yourself. Can you please describe for the court what you witnessed while

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1 you were in the Keraterm camp?

2 A. I can speak about some of the things that I saw, and there were

3 other things about which I only heard. As for the things that I saw, I

4 was mistreated myself. And I can talk about things that I heard. And I

5 can do that now.

6 Q. Witness, let's start with that. Can you describe incidents that

7 you say that you've heard, starting with the first day or two that you

8 were in Keraterm camp, please?

9 A. The very day that I was brought in, but towards the evening,

10 another group from Ljubija was brought in. Of them, and I won't give his

11 name, I'll only give you his first name, and that is Hasan, was taken out

12 and brought right in front of our -- of Room 4, that is our room, and

13 somebody began to beat him. I could not see who that was, and I cannot

14 say exactly how long it took, but the screams were horrible and he

15 survived.

16 Q. Do you recall approximately how long you heard these screams?

17 A. Well, ten minutes, could be.

18 Q. Witness, during the first couple of days that you were in

19 Keraterm, did you hear or do you recall hearing any gunfire?

20 A. Nonstop. At all hours of day or night one could hear gunshots.

21 Q. Do you know if those gunshots were coming from within the camp or

22 from the surrounding areas?

23 A. I don't know that.

24 Q. Witness, do you know a person named Zoran Zigic?

25 A. Yes, very well.

1 Q. Did you ever see Zoran Zigic in the Keraterm camp while you were

2 there?

3 A. A number of times.

4 Q. Can you describe for us the ethnicity of the people that were

5 being detained with you?

6 A. Muslims and Croats, and a Serb here and there.

7 Q. Do you know if there were also Albanians detained in the camp?

8 A. Yes, quite a number of them.

9 Q. Again, in the first couple of days that you were in Keraterm, are

10 you aware of any Albanians being called out of the room?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you please describe what you witnessed with respect to

13 Albanians being called out, please?

14 A. In the early days of my stay in Keraterm, a young man was called

15 out who had come to the camp together with me. They took him out, started

16 to beat him, and asked him, "Where's that tall one who had come with you?"

17 And he said that that one was in Room 3. And they then responded by

18 requesting that all Albanians in all rooms come out. And from the room

19 that I was in, another Albanian who had arrived with me came forward, and

20 a young man called Besim Jusufi came out, and then they began to beat all

21 of them.

22 After some time, they brought them back to the room. They were

23 all bloody, had huge bloody bruises on the faces, on the body, black and

24 blue bruises. They were in terrible pain, and they returned to the room.

25 Q. What happened to them after they returned to the room?

1 A. Fejzo, Besim Jusufi recovered quickly, and a third Albanian died

2 after two or three days. He died on the third day. We carried him out of

3 the room to the left of Room 4 and laid him down there.

4 Q. Witness, you testified earlier that there were a couple of Serbs

5 also in the camp. Do you recall any of the names of the Serbs who were in

6 the Keraterm camp with you as detainees?

7 A. Yes. It was Jovo Radocaj. The second day after I got to the camp

8 at night-time, a Serb was brought, he was brought by a Serb from his own

9 locality, a Serb policeman. And at the -- in the reception office of the

10 camp he was met by Damir slapped him in the face and asked him, "What dick

11 made you? What Serb are you? What Serb dick could make you?" And he was

12 then ordered to go into one of the rooms and told that he'd get his

13 desserts.

14 MR. VUCICEVIC: [Previous translation continues]... the gentleman

15 has used universally known word for male sexual organ, penis, and here in

16 translation it's something else.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we take note of that.

18 Continue, Mr. Mundis.

19 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.

20 Q. Witness, when you say he was met by Damir, who were you referring

21 to?

22 A. Kajin.

23 Q. During the time that you were in the camp, did you see Jovo

24 Radocaj at any other time?

25 A. Jovo came to my room. It was twilight by that time, and as soon

1 as it got darker, we could hear a group approaching the room in which we

2 were detained. When I came near the door, we could hear the words, "Come

3 on Serb, come out." Jovo stood up and went out and they began to beat

4 him. I can't remember how long. All I do remember is the last blow after

5 which silence ensued, and that blow sounded like when a wet ball hits the

6 wall. And then the door opened again and Jovo was thrown at my feet.

7 Q. Witness, do you know which shift was on duty at the time of this

8 beating?

9 A. The same shift as when Jovo was brought in, the shift which was

10 commanded by Damir Dosenovic, called Kajin.

11 Q. Witness, do you know where Kajin was when this beating occurred?

12 A. When the group came to the room, I could not see them. The voice

13 which called Jovo to come out sounded familiar. The man who was calling

14 out Jovo to come out was Kajin's voice.

15 Q. When Jovo Radocaj was thrown back into the room, as you

16 characterised it, did you see his condition upon his return to Room 4?

17 A. Jovo had coveralls buttoned up to the neck. His head was all

18 bloody. He took a few hours to die. And he was rambling, trying to say

19 something. I did understand some of it. He was calling out for his wife

20 Zdenka, for his brothers, and spoke to goats - his wife and he were quite

21 known for that - and things like that. And he died a few hours later.

22 Q. Witness, did you the following day see anything that -- any

23 physical markings on the building from the events that had happened the

24 day before or the night before?

25 A. Yes. I saw a bloody stain on the wall.

1 Q. Can you describe what that stain looked like, please?

2 A. Round.

3 Q. Yesterday, Witness, you told the court that you knew Drago

4 Tokmadzic. Did you see Drago Tokmadzic at any time in Keraterm?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you tell us when you saw him, please?

7 A. No sooner did I arrive in the camp -- or rather after the first

8 room, I was told that Eso and Drago were in Room 4, and that is where I

9 went. There they made some room for me, and I stayed there in the same

10 room with them all the time.

11 Q. Was Drago Tokmadzic called out of the room during the time that

12 you were in Room 4?

13 A. Yes. One evening, a person came and went from room to room

14 looking for Drago Tokmadzic. Drago was already getting ready or rather

15 putting all the clothes he could on, and when that person reached Room 4,

16 Drago responded, and that one told him to wait a little. And after a

17 short time, one could hear that largish group was coming and Drago was

18 ordered to come out -- or rather they first unlocked the door to the room

19 and said that Drago should come out.

20 Q. Did Drago Tokmadzic actually go out?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you hear or see what happened to him once he went out of the

23 room?

24 A. I could only hear.

25 Q. Can you please describe what you heard?

1 A. I can. When he came out of the room, Drago said, "Come on, lads.

2 My mother is a Serb too." And they -- whereupon they started to beat him,

3 to swear at him. Somebody said, "You will beat Serb children, will you?"

4 And then the question ensued, "Who came with you?" And he said, "Esad

5 Islamovic." They were stopping to beat Drago, they also said, "Let's have

6 Esad out." Esad came out, and he told them, "This is some mix-up because

7 I am a Serb policeman. I've only come to make a statement." Whereupon

8 they laughed and went on beating. And after a short while Drago and Eso

9 could not be heard again. All we could hear is that somebody ordered

10 "another hundred times" and one could hear blows as if with a wet cloth.

11 Q. Witness, you testified that Esad said he was a Serb policeman; was

12 that true?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was Esad a Serb policeman?

15 A. When the five of us were kicked out, the rest of those who

16 remained had to sign an oath of loyalty to the Serbs, and those who did

17 not wish to do so had -- actually, they were afraid, if they did not sign

18 it, that later on, they would be kicked out one by one or taken to the

19 camp like Drago and Eso. Drago and Eso were both disarmed after their

20 shift and taken to the Keraterm camp still wearing their uniforms.

21 Q. What ethnicity was Eso Islamovic?

22 A. Muslim.

23 Q. Now, Witness, after Drago Tokmadzic and Esad Islamovic were taken

24 out and beaten, what happened next?

25 A. The soldiers who were standing next to the door ordered four men

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1 out to carry them in. I stood up first. At the very door, this soldier

2 hit me with a police baton over my head. I fell. And then from all sides

3 they started kicking me and beating me with batons and with whatever else

4 they had.

5 Q. Witness, did you recognise any of the people who were beating

6 you?

7 A. At that time, no.

8 Q. Approximately how long did this beating take place?

9 A. For a long time, but I don't know exactly.

10 Q. Do you know which shift was on duty when you were beaten?

11 A. Yes. It was Damir Dosenovic's shift. His nickname is Kajin.

12 Q. How do you know that, Witness?

13 A. I know that the night before I entered the room and before the

14 room was locked, the guards who were there and Kajin himself were there.

15 Q. During the time that you were being beaten, did you see Kajin?

16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Objection. My apologies. This is

17 a leading question. He was asked whom he saw and he stated whom he saw.

18 This is leading, this next question.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: The question is: "During the time that you were

20 being beaten, did you see Kajin?" I see nothing leading in that.

21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my apologies, the

22 witness did answer that what -- that while he was being beaten, he did not

23 see anyone. In other words, he said that he did not see who he was being

24 beaten by. Is that correct, Witness?

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but I think it is open to counsel to put a

1 question specifically in relation to a particular person. Yes. Proceed.

2 MR. MUNDIS:

3 Q. You can answer the question, Witness.

4 A. Excuse me, could you please repeat the question?

5 Q. During the time that you were being beaten, did you see Kajin?

6 A. When I saw that they would not stop beating me and that I could

7 not withstand all the beating, and expecting to be called out, I was

8 considering what to do, just as everybody else did. I tried to defend by

9 yelling out, "Pilip, Kajin, they are killing me," and this worked.

10 Q. What do you mean by "this worked"?

11 A. They stopped beating me. One among them, "Listen to this," and

12 the other one said, "Who is this one calling?" And from the group who

13 were -- who had surrounded Drago and Eso, one person came over and he

14 said, "Guys, stop." And this person was Damir Dosenovic, called Kajin.

15 Q. What happened, Witness, after you were beaten, can you please

16 describe that for us?

17 A. Another three men came out of the room.

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] The witness said, "Enough, let's

21 go." "Enough, let's go." And the record says, "Enough, stop."

22 This was in answer to the previous question of my friend.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: So you are saying the answer was enough.

24 MR. PETROVIC: "Enough, we are going." Something like that.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Proceed.

1 MR. MUNDIS:

2 Q. Please describe what happened after you were beaten, Witness?

3 A. Another three men came out of the room. We carried in Eso and

4 then Drago and the door closed behind us and was locked. I passed a piece

5 of cloth to Eso and Drago was asking for water. I gave him a drink, and

6 he died. Shortly thereafter, I started losing consciousness, and somebody

7 dragged me somewhere.

8 Q. Witness, prior to losing consciousness, can you -- did you see the

9 condition that Drago Tokmadzic was in?

10 A. Yes. They were covered in blood. Drago was stripped to the

11 waist. They were black and blue and virtually disfigured.

12 Q. Witness, did you receive any type of injuries as a result of the

13 beating and, if so, can you please describe them for us?

14 A. Yes. I received many blows around the head. My nose was broken.

15 I am not going to belabour the swellings. I was black and blue all over

16 my body.

17 Q. Can you please describe for us the condition that Eso Islamovic

18 was in following the beating?

19 A. When I came to and raised my head, Eso's head looked like a bloody

20 blot. You couldn't see the ears. You couldn't see the eyes. He was all

21 swollen. His fingers were broken. It looked horrible.

22 Q. What happened to Eso Islamovic after that, after you saw him?

23 A. Several days later a doctor arrived, and we could hear them saying

24 that if there were any sick people, that they should report to go to the

25 hospital. And as Eso was not quite together, I asked him a couple of

1 questions to see whether his mind was clear. I told him to say that he

2 had fallen from a vehicle, which is what he did, and he was taken to the

3 hospital.

4 Q. Did you ever see him after that and, if so, when?

5 A. I did not see him. One evening when two vehicles came from

6 Keraterm to Omarska, one friend pointed that Eso was under -- was under --

7 behind the window, but I could not see him.

8 Q. Witness, after Eso was taken out of Keraterm, did you ever see him

9 again?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Witness, do you recall the date that you arrived at Keraterm?

12 A. 19 June.

13 Q. Do you recall the date that you left Keraterm?

14 A. 4th of July.

15 Q. I neglected to ask you a couple of questions earlier. Let me ask

16 those before I move on to the next area. When you first arrived at

17 Keraterm on the 19th of June, how long after that time did you first get

18 something to eat in Keraterm?

19 A. I cannot give a precise answer.

20 Q. And one last follow-up question with respect to eating times.

21 Approximately how long, on those occasions when you were given food in

22 Keraterm, how long were you allowed to eat the food?

23 A. Several minutes.

24 Q. Did anything happen if you didn't eat the food in that period of

25 time?

1 A. Even in those couple of minutes, it would sometimes happen that we

2 would often be beaten, and the person who took lead in this was Banovic.

3 We had to eat quickly, and even faster move back to the room where we were

4 staying.

5 Q. Witness, on the 4th of July, can you please tell us where you went

6 when you left Keraterm?

7 A. We were told that we would be going to the camp at Ljubija and

8 that all those who were from Ljubija should give their names to be put

9 down on a list, and that buses would come to transfer us there. When we

10 did all this, the buses arrived, we boarded them, and the buses took us to

11 the Omarska camp.

12 Q. Do you recall anything about how this list was utilised in the

13 camp that you are talking about? You said a list, can you tell us

14 anything about the list?

15 A. Kajin came and said to someone of the men from Ljubija that we

16 should compile a list and that we would be going to Ljubija. And this is

17 what we did.

18 Q. And did you, in fact, go to Ljubija?

19 A. No. As I said, we went to the Omarska camp.

20 Q. Approximately how many people were with you on the bus that you

21 travelled to Omarska in?

22 A. Two buses, but I wouldn't be able to give you the exact number.

23 In addition to those of us who were from Ljubija, some others also boarded

24 the buses after that.

25 Q. Can you describe the physical conditions of the people that were

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1 on the bus that you travelled in, please?

2 A. It depended. Some who had been brought to Keraterm in the days

3 prior to this were still in a good physical shape. Those of us who had

4 come earlier or some who had come even before I had come were unshaven,

5 filthy, and many of them were covered in blood like me with their clothes

6 torn and beaten up.

7 Q. Approximately how long did it take for the bus to travel from

8 Keraterm to Omarska?

9 A. About one hour.

10 Q. Can you please describe for us what you saw when you arrived at

11 Omarska?

12 A. At first, that is when we first arrived, we had to keep our heads

13 bowed. We were ordered to get off the buses. I could see the men on the

14 pista and there were -- looked in terrible shape, but I only looked

15 surreptitiously. Then they lined us against the wall. We had to raise

16 our hands and keep three fingers there.

17 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, at this time I would like to restate

18 my objection that I proposed yesterday, because early on there was a

19 ruling in this Trial Chamber that these are going to be separate trials,

20 Keraterm and Omarska. In the pre-trial conference that we had with the

21 Prosecutor about a month, month and a half ago, it was suggested by

22 Mr. Ryneveld that the evidence to be presented about Omarska will not

23 be -- will be presented only as far as the genocide accounts, but not any

24 other less accounts.

25 I would just like to state it for the record and to have you be

1 apprised of it. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Vucicevic. It's not only the

3 genocide count to which the happenings at Omarska are relevant. They are

4 the persecution counts which relate to the Prijedor area generally, and

5 illustrative of that is what happened at Keraterm. Keraterm is identified

6 specifically. But more generally, the persecution charges relate to the

7 Prijedor area, in which Omarska would fall. So it seems to us that

8 evidence of Omarska is very relevant.

9 Mr. Mundis, do you have anything to say on this?

10 MR. MUNDIS: No, Your Honour. That summarises the position of the

11 Prosecutor as well.

12 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I do appreciate what you have said,

13 but as far as the persecution count -- part of the counts of the crimes

14 against humanity, it would be very proper and fair to adduce the evidence

15 as to at least what my client is charged with, evidence that he could see

16 and could perceive at that time, because, as the witnesses have also

17 testified, the Omarska is 25 kilometres away, and what had happened in

18 opstina Prijedor that somebody in his position couldn't perceive would be

19 very prejudicial. The only evidence that he could perceive at that time

20 would be something that could be imputed to him, and whether he had

21 observed it or not, that is going to be subject to another -- to the many,

22 many other witnesses. But basically, establishing that charge should be

23 based on what he could have perceived at that time, and unless this

24 witness or other witness have seen him in Omarska, what happened in

25 Omarska shouldn't be relevant to him. Thank you.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Vucicevic. The Chamber is well

2 aware of the proper basis for attributing criminal liability. The Chamber

3 determines that evidence as to what took place at Omarska is very relevant

4 to the indictment. Proceed.

5 MR. MUNDIS:

6 Q. Witness, can you please describe for us anything that happened on

7 the first night that you were in Omarska?

8 A. After the group that arrived in Omarska was recorded, we went to

9 the garage, which was to the right of where the buses had come to a stop

10 and where we got off. After a while they took us to another room where --

11 that previously were used as the mining company offices. After it grew

12 dark, different groups started arriving. They were asking for money, for

13 clothes, for shoes. They would bring some out, bring them back, beaten

14 up, bloodied and bruised.

15 Q. Witness, did there come a time when you were in Omarska that you

16 personally were called out of the room?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell the Court about that, please?

19 A. They selected three of us haphazardly and said that we would be

20 taken to the "white house." They took us across the way to a room, and

21 one of the three of us said that he knew Krkan and that they were close,

22 and then I also said that I knew him. The two of us were then taken back

23 with only -- having received only several blows.

24 Q. Can you describe eating conditions or access to food in the

25 Omarska camp, particularly with respect to the first few days that you

1 were there, please?

2 A. When they would take us to eat, we had to clear a number of

3 obstacles, like chains that were stretched out, then some pipes, and we

4 were hosed with water, and we were in a gauntlet of guards who beat us.

5 We had to run and then get the food. Those who had sit down -- who had

6 sat down first had to get up to make room for the new ones who were

7 arriving. And then on the way back, we had to clear the same obstacles.

8 Q. When were you first given food after you arrived at Omarska?

9 A. After two or three days.

10 Q. What type of food --

11 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours?

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Vucicevic?

13 MR. VUCICEVIC: Further presentation of this evidence is going to

14 cause impossibility, at least to this counsel, to effectively

15 cross-examine this witness, because this was not anticipated. And your

16 ruling of this Trial Chamber, as a matter of fact, has given full indicia

17 that those are going to be two separate trials. The very fact that this

18 statements -- statement that was presented beforehand did have some

19 information about Keraterm, but that was a statement of a witness who

20 could tell his experiences. However, it is a discretion of the Prosecutor

21 to say what he is going to -- what testimony he is going to bring. And at

22 the Pre-Trial Conference, we were deceived. We are not in a position to

23 continue this effective representation on the issue of Omarska.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's quite clear that the evidence is very

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1 relevant, and the Chamber has ruled on this, but in the interests of

2 clarification, I'm going to ask Mr. Mundis to comment on the statement

3 made by counsel about the Pre-Trial Conference.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, it's the Prosecutor's position that

5 first of all, all three of the accused were put on notice with respect to

6 the breadth of the Prosecutor's case by the 13 October, 2000, pre-trial

7 brief in which extensive discussion was made as to the number of camps in

8 Prijedor and the interlocking nature of those camps. Moreover, our 65 ter

9 witness statements that were also filed in October of 2000 indicated

10 witnesses would be testifying as to Omarska and Trnopolje and Manjaca as

11 well. It's also our view that in Mr. Ryneveld's opening statement this

12 has been raised, as well in the court witness summaries that have been

13 provided on an ongoing basis to all three of the accused. With respect to

14 the representations with respect to the Pre-Trial Conference, certainly

15 representations were made that -- particularly the accused Kolundzija and

16 Dosen, there is no evidence that they were ever in the Omarska camp.

17 However, it is still our view that with respect to the -- particularly the

18 genocide and as well as the persecution counts, that these matters are

19 relevant. And certainly all three of the accused have been on notice that

20 the Prosecutor was intending on leading this type of evidence, since at

21 least October of 2000. And up until the moment Mr. Vucicevic raised in

22 objection yesterday, that was the very first time that the Prosecutor was

23 aware that any of the accused would be objecting to this type of

24 evidence.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber reiterates the ruling that it made

2 earlier, that evidence as to what happened at Omarska is relevant to the

3 indictment. Continue.

4 JUDGE MAY: Just let me raise something. Perhaps to clarify

5 matters, could you, Mr. Mundis, see what was said during the Pre-Trial

6 Conference so that it's clear?

7 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Your Honour. If we could have the next break to

8 do that and report upon it immediately after the break, that would be

9 fine.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

11 MR. GREAVES: Sorry to butt in. It ought to be made clear be

12 whether my learned friend Mr. Vucicevic means the Pre-Trial Conference as

13 held before the Trial Chamber or simply a conference held between counsel

14 in the Prosecution's offices prior to the trial. I'm loath for the

15 details of conferences held inter-counsel to be, as it were, discussed

16 before the Trial Chamber. Those conversations should generally be

17 private.

18 JUDGE MAY: The Pre-Trial Conference is the relevant one.

19 MR. GREAVES: That's what I believe.

20 JUDGE MAY: Before the Trial Chamber. That's what I want to be

21 clarified, what was said in open court.

22 MR. GREAVES: Thank you.

23 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, at this time I could clarify the

24 remarks which I was referring, they were said in the conference with three

25 counsel present, not in the open court.

1 JUDGE MAY: Can it be clarified if anything was said in open

2 court?

3 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, I will do that during the break.

4 Q. Witness, did there come a time when you were in Omarska that you

5 were forced to stay on the pista?

6 A. A great many things were happening all day long and all night

7 long. On one occasion when I was on pista, I saw them bringing a group of

8 inmates. And from all the buildings, rather, those who interrogated us;

9 guards, cooks who worked in the kitchen, they all came out to see them

10 being beaten.

11 I remember how a guy from Ljubija was forced to beat his head

12 against a wall, and looking stealthily, I saw around the "white house"

13 many dead bodies. And when they took us to the lavatory and to other

14 places I, again, saw bodies.

15 Q. Witness, I'd like to draw your attention to the Serb festival of

16 Petrovdan. Were you in Omarska during the time of that festival?

17 A. Yes, I was.

18 Q. Can you describe what was happening in Omarska at that time?

19 A. I did not see anything.

20 Q. Did you hear of anything happening during that festival?

21 A. Yes. Gunshots, screams, wails.

22 Q. Did you see anything unusual the following morning?

23 A. Yes. A truck which took away the dead, and it was fuller than

24 usual, fuller than on other days.

25 Q. Do you recall approximately how many bodies you saw in the truck?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Witness, did there come a time in Omarska when you were

3 interrogated and, if so, can you please describe that for the Court?

4 A. On the 8th of July a guard came with a small piece of paper in his

5 hands and it had my name on it. He took me to a room on the floor above

6 the kitchen or, rather, in the building which housed the kitchen, and told

7 me to go to the first room to the right. And at the very entrance into

8 that room, I received a powerful blow in the back.

9 I entered, and there were two soldiers there and an investigator

10 and he told me to take a chair, and after a few formal questions, to kneel

11 down on the floor, to take off my jacket and then two more came in. He

12 asked me which families on my street had any weapons, and before I had

13 time to answer, they started beating me. That question then moved on to

14 the next one, "Tell us what you know." The beating never stopped.

15 They mostly beat me in the -- around the kidneys and that same

16 investigator around the heart -- in the area of heart with his heel. And

17 at some point, because I was at a loss what to do, I told him to call my

18 neighbour, a priest, and ask him who I was and what I was.

19 After that, the door opened and they stopped beating me, and that

20 instructor told them to take me to pista, and that is what they did.

21 Q. Witness, do you know a person named Islam Bahonjic?

22 A. I do.

23 Q. Did you see him in Omarska?

24 A. Yes. Once, one day, as we were lying down on the pista on our

25 bellies, Islam Bahonjic was brought back from interrogation and allowed to

1 fall down next to my feet, and he begged for water but I couldn't give him

2 any, and a few minutes later he went quiet. That is, he gave no more

3 signs of life. A man carried him, and laid him down in front of the

4 "white house".

5 Q. Witness, do you know a person named Ilijaz Dobric?

6 A. I do. He was an engineer and worked in the mine, the same mine

7 that I used to work in. He had a characteristic scar on his face. He

8 came back from interrogation, and he apparently walked normally. He sat

9 down and passed away a few minutes later.

10 Q. Witness, you've talked about being -- lying on your belly on the

11 pista. Can you describe what the pista was and what the conditions were

12 while you were lying there, please?

13 A. Pista was an area in front of the kitchen or, rather, between the

14 kitchen and the tempering shop. And we had to lie down, now the position

15 depended on the guard's mood; sometimes on our backs, sometimes on our

16 bellies, sometimes we were allowed to sit. At times we even spent the

17 night there.

18 Q. What type of material was the pista made of?

19 A. Asphalt.

20 Q. Was the pista covered?

21 A. No. There were flower pots around.

22 Q. Witness, do you know a person named Huzeir Alagic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you see that person in Omarska?

25 A. I did. Huzeir Alagic went missing during the search in Ljubija,

1 and the first time I saw him again was in Keraterm, and after that, he was

2 transferred to Omarska with us. He was strangled with a wire in front of

3 the "white house".

4 Q. What happened to him after he was strangled?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Did he survive the strangling?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you know who strangled him?

9 A. No, not the name.

10 Q. Was the person who strangled him a guard or a detainee?

11 A. A guard wearing a military uniform.

12 Q. Witness, do you know a person named Samir Islamovic?

13 A. I do.

14 Q. Did you see that person in Omarska?

15 A. I just mentioned a while ago that on one occasion, they brought

16 inmates in a van and that they came -- that everybody came out of the

17 rooms upstairs and from the kitchen to watch them being beaten. One of

18 them was Samir.

19 Q. Witness, previously you testified about a detainee banging his

20 head on the wall. Could you elaborate on that briefly, please?

21 A. His nickname was Bugarin, Balgar. He lived somewhere in Croatia.

22 When the war broke out, he came back home. And I didn't really know him

23 or I wasn't really much in touch with him. But that day I saw a guard

24 standing by him and ordering him to bang his head against a wall shouting

25 at him, "Stronger." And that is what he did, and then he fell down and

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1 did not move again.

2 Q. Witness, you testified that you saw bodies in Omarska. Can you

3 tell us how frequently you would see these dead bodies?

4 A. Very often, almost daily.

5 Q. Can you describe briefly the condition of the bodies that you saw?

6 A. More often than not their heads were disfigured so that even if

7 you knew somebody before, you could not recognise him anymore. And

8 naturally, they were all covered in blood. Their clothes were torn and

9 the like.

10 Q. Witness, do you recall the day that you left Omarska?

11 A. I do. Between the 5th and the 6th of August.

12 Q. 1992?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Where did you go once you left Omarska?

15 A. We went to the camp at Manjaca.

16 Q. How did you get there?

17 A. Buses.

18 Q. Did you go there voluntarily?

19 A. One day while we were in Omarska, people came to tell us that the

20 camp was being disbanded and that we were going home. So they brought

21 some lists of sorts and began to call out. Now, many of those on those

22 lists had already been murdered, and many were -- and there were many in

23 the camp who were not on the lists. So they began to separate us and

24 group us and the group that I was assigned to was ordered to board buses.

25 And as we were boarding them, they began to beat us, to kick us. We were

1 not allowed to raise our heads. We had to put our heads under the seats

2 in the bus, and then they took us in the direction of Manjaca.

3 Q. Can you describe what happened when you arrived on the bus at

4 Manjaca?

5 A. On the way to Manjaca, the buses would stop often. Some would be

6 taken off, beaten, and then put back on the bus. Some of them were not

7 put back on. When we arrived in Manjaca, they switched on the heating in

8 the buses, closed the windows, and walked around looking for some more.

9 They spent a long time looking for Nihad Basic, Hodzic, Dedo Crnalic, and

10 some others. Those men never returned to the bus.

11 Q. At the time that you were on the bus with the heating turned up,

12 do you know approximately what the temperature was outside at that time?

13 A. August in Bosnia is hot, and that August was hot too. I couldn't

14 tell you what the temperature was, but we were all wet. There was nothing

15 to drink. And the dew that covered the bus inside, we were licking it,

16 and that is how the night fell.

17 Q. Witness, you just said that you were all wet. Why were you wet?

18 A. Because of the temperature that was inside.

19 Q. What did you see when you got off the bus at Manjaca?

20 A. When the day broke, we were ordered to get off, and we passed by a

21 group of killed men lying between the buses.

22 Q. Did you notice anything unusual about the body by the bus?

23 A. Yes. On a body -- or rather, I saw that a body had been stripped

24 off and that a bottle had been pushed up the -- its colon. Rather, I

25 could still see the end of the bottle.

1 Q. I have one other question I failed to ask you with respect to the

2 bus. While the bus was sitting in Manjaca with the heater on, did anyone

3 on the bus suffer any type of conditions?

4 A. Yes. Zvonko Tokmadzic died on the way between Omarska and

5 Manjaca.

6 Q. Do you know how he died?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Witness, approximately how long did you remain in the Manjaca

9 camp?

10 A. I stayed there until December, 1992. I left with a second group

11 when the camp was disbanded.

12 Q. Witness, did you have to do anything in order to be permitted to

13 leave Manjaca?

14 A. Yes. We had to sign documents renouncing -- ceding all our

15 property to Republika Srpska.

16 Q. Finally, witness, I have just a couple more questions about

17 Keraterm. You testified about Albanians in Keraterm. Do you recall how

18 many Albanians died in Keraterm?

19 A. One while I was there.

20 Q. And do you recall that person's name?

21 A. No. He arrived with me. He came from Prijedor. I think he tried

22 to hide at this other's place who was from Ljubija, but they were both

23 detained in Keraterm.

24 Q. This Albanian whose identity you don't know, do you know where he

25 was employed or where he worked prior to the war?

1 A. Yes. At the bus terminal in Prijedor, he had his sweet shop,

2 pastry shop called Zvjezdas. I do not know whether he owned it or was an

3 employee there, but I often saw him there.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Witness. The Prosecution has no further

5 questions at this time.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. It's now four minutes to 11.00. We

7 will take the break now and resume at 25 minutes after 11.00.

8 Witness D, during the break, you are not to discuss your evidence

9 with anybody, including members of the Prosecution team.

10 We are adjourned.

11 --- Recess taken at 10.56 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 11.27 a.m.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Greaves.

14 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your Honour. May we start with

15 a short period in private session, please, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

17 [Private session]

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14 [Open session]

15 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much.

16 Q. Witness D, it's right, isn't it, that you did your ordinary

17 national service in the JNA for 15 months in 1983-1984?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. Did you subsequently remain with the JNA as a member of the

20 reserve?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And indeed it's right, isn't it, that as late as September 1991,

23 you took part in military manoeuvres in an infantry unit as part of your

24 reserve commitment?

25 A. That was August/September 1991.

1 Q. And apart from perhaps being given more equipment than usual, is

2 it right that everything about that particular set of manoeuvres appeared

3 to be normal, nothing exceptional?

4 A. No. You could not say that. There were rumours that the unit to

5 which I belonged was even then to be sent to the front in the neighbouring

6 Republic of Croatia.

7 Q. But apart from those rumours, it's right, isn't it, that the

8 manoeuvres were, as you told the Office of the Prosecutor, a regular thing

9 and there appeared nothing special about them. Do you accept that?

10 A. That is correct.

11 Q. Subsequently, Witness D, in October 1991, did you hear that your

12 reserve unit was due to be called up for service in Croatia?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And was it at that point that you -- someone attempted to serve

15 you with your call-up papers but you declined to take them?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. At that stage, whatever the political dynamics of the matter were,

18 the law was that you had to go if you were summoned; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Why did you refuse to answer the legal commitment that you were

21 given?

22 A. To me that war was absurd and fratricidal.

23 Q. It's right, isn't it, that a significant number of people followed

24 or did as you had done and refused to answer the call-up in October of

25 1991?

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. And that was principally the Muslim and Croatian ethnic groups who

3 followed that course; is that right?

4 A. And Serb.

5 Q. Yes, some Serbs, but the majority of those who refused to answer

6 the call-up were Muslim and Croat; would you accept that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And isn't that one of the reasons why, in effect, the JNA became

9 an almost exclusively Serb-dominated organisation; would you accept that?

10 A. To me, this is more of politics.

11 Q. Are you saying it was because of politics that the JNA became

12 Serb-dominated or because Muslims and Croats simply refused to answer

13 their commitment? Could you just clarify that, please?

14 A. I said even before that the Serbs and Muslims and Croats who

15 signed an oath of loyalty to the Serbs were subsequently kicked out of the

16 police, and the same went for the Yugoslav People's Army. From there too,

17 certain Muslims and Croats were removed.

18 MR. GREAVES: May we go again into private session, please, Your

19 Honour?

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes

21 [Private session]

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3 [Open session]

4 MR. GREAVES:

5 Q. Witness D, there came a time in 1992 when you were -- I'm sorry,

6 late 1991, early 1992 when you were laid off from your place of work; is

7 that correct?

8 A. I was on unpaid leave.

9 Q. Unpaid leave. I think that's probably the same phrase that I

10 mean. The reason for that, Witness D, was this, was it not: The Serbs

11 had all gone to the front, and because there was no work coming into the

12 company, the Muslims and Croats who remained had to be, as you put it,

13 given unpaid leave?

14 A. It is possible that that was one of the reasons.

15 Q. If I can just refresh your memory as to what you told the Office

16 of the Prosecutor, you told them about where you had been working and

17 that, "I had to take leave until further notice as, because of the war,

18 there was not enough work for us." Does that refresh your memory as to

19 the reason, the only reason?

20 A. I think it is -- clearly there is -- there was a

21 misunderstanding. It was not unpaid, it was a paid leave. And the reason

22 given, according to me, was a regular one, because there was not enough

23 work and it was obvious that they would send us to work. I do not believe

24 that the reason for this was my participation in the rally or my not

25 responding to the call-up for mobilisation.

1 Q. Witness D, I hadn't suggested that it was. I just wanted to

2 clarify what you told the Office of the Prosecutor and to establish with

3 you what the reason for you being given, as you now tell us, paid leave.

4 All right?

5 Did you go at all to work between December 1991 and the end of

6 April 1992?

7 A. I did not go back to my work, but back to the workshop.

8 Q. Witness D, I'd like to ask you now about the circumstances in

9 which you became a reserve police officer. The people who approached you

10 to join the reserve, were they Muslims or were they people of different

11 ethnic backgrounds?

12 A. The person with whom I established contact for the first time on

13 this was Rade Zekan, an active-duty police officer and an ethnic Serb.

14 Q. And was there a second active police officer who made such an

15 approach?

16 A. I cannot remember.

17 Q. If I suggested to you the name Aziz Aliskovic, would that assist

18 you?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Can you just confirm this, that the man you've described and

21 spoken of, Esad Islamovic, was he also an active police officer?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you just help us a little more about the difference between

24 active and reserve police officers. Would this be correct that when you

25 speak of an active police officer, that is you are speaking of someone who

1 was a regular police officer before the war in the civil police force?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And the police force of which we are talking is the ordinary

4 conventional police force whose job is to investigate crime, organise

5 crowds at football matches, that sort of thing?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Would you accept this, Witness D, that the reserve police force

8 was a somewhat different entity prior to the war?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Is this correct that before the war, one way in which you could

11 join the reserve police force was as an alternative to going on to the

12 reserve of the JNA?

13 A. Yes. No, sorry. Instead of joining the reserve, yes.

14 Q. So that you come to the end of your JNA national service at the

15 end of your 15 months, and most people are then placed on to the JNA

16 reserve?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. But some people can -- are able to opt for joining the reserve

19 police instead of carrying out a reserve army commitment?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And if you don't know the answer to this, tell us, but can you

22 help us? The commitment as a reserve police officer that we have just

23 been talking about is less than the commitment you would have as a reserve

24 soldier?

25 A. Yes. The JNA reservists had to go farther away from home, whereas

1 the reserve police officers would stay near their homes. If a JNA

2 exercise would last for several days, the police -- reserve police

3 officers were able to go back home every night.

4 Q. So that your reserve commitment as a reserve on the JNA was what,

5 a couple of weeks a year, a week a year?

6 A. No. Sometimes one day, sometimes seven days, sometimes ten.

7 Q. And did you know people, friends or acquaintances, who had joined

8 the reserve police in the way that I've described?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And would this be a fair description, that compared with the

11 reserve commitment for the army, the reserve commitment for the reserve

12 police was very much the easy option?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And the reserve police received very little, if any, training as

15 part of their commitment?

16 A. Yes, very rarely.

17 Q. Thank you. Can I now turn, please, to the takeover of Prijedor in

18 April, 1992? In the commune where you were living, were you aware of the

19 fact of that takeover?

20 A. No. We did not feel that, except for a tense atmosphere, if I can

21 call it that.

22 Q. At the time of the takeover, was it your understanding, did you

23 hear, that the Serbs were indicating at that point that they had no

24 interest in assuming authority in your particular home area?

25 A. Correct.

1 Q. You then spent a short period as a reserve police officer,

2 obviously, before being dismissed. Did you receive any training of any

3 kind during that period?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And although you hadn't been on the reserve police beforehand, you

6 were then sent effectively, at the beginning, to work without any sort of

7 background training as to what your job should be as a reserve police

8 officer?

9 A. A reserve police officer had occasional target practice but, apart

10 from that, had no special role. A reserve police officer would always be

11 accompanied by an active-duty police officer when going on patrol.

12 Q. And so would this be correct, that you would depend on the active

13 police officer firstly to command you and control his unit, and secondly

14 to tell you where to go and what to do?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And would this be correct, that no reserve police officer within

17 your knowledge was given promotion to a senior rank or command-and-control

18 functions?

19 A. The Deputy Commander of the police station was a reserve police

20 officer, and how he arrived at that position, I don't know.

21 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, would you just give me a moment,

22 please?

23 Q. Can you recall that person's name, please?

24 A. Komosar.

25 Q. Is that his first name or his family name?

1 A. Last name.

2 Q. And can you recall what his ethnicity was?

3 A. I think that he was a Serb.

4 Q. I'd like to move now, please, briefly to the time when the village

5 of Hambarine was being shelled. After that shelling, is it right that you

6 were called to go to the police station at Ljubija?

7 A. No, no, not after the shelling.

8 Q. Was there a time when you were at the police station in Ljubija

9 around the time of the shelling, and you were there with other police

10 officers?

11 A. The first shelling started a day before the second shelling.

12 During -- it was during the second shelling that we were called up to the

13 police station, and I went.

14 Q. Was it on that occasion that you were informed that -- of the

15 likelihood of the Serbs taking over the police station?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Were you told that you should stay on with a view to controlling

18 Serb extremists?

19 A. As far as I'm concerned, no.

20 Q. Can I just remind you again of what you told the Office of the

21 Prosecutor? "At the station, we were told by the Deputy Commander

22 Komosar, the commander being trapped in Prijedor at that moment and unable

23 to return, that the Serbs were taking over, but that we should stay on to

24 control the Serb extremists." Do you remember saying that to the Office

25 of the Prosecutor?

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1 A. Not us but he.

2 Q. Well, unless it's been mistranslated, the version that we have

3 says, "We should stay on to control the Serb extremists." Are you now

4 saying that that's not correct?

5 A. Let me repeat: Komosar told us, after a brief break when he

6 cried, that he would try to stay and prevent the Serb extremists from

7 entering the police station. That is, that he would allow some honest

8 Serbs and prevent Serb extremists from becoming Serb police officers.

9 Q. What did you understand by the phrase "Serb extremists" to mean?

10 A. Former criminals.

11 Q. Criminals in the sense of people who had committed crimes like

12 theft or robbery or things like that?

13 A. Correct, that is correct.

14 Q. Witness D, doesn't the word -- the phrase "Serb extremists" mean

15 precisely what it meant when used of Muslim extremists when used by Serbs,

16 people involved in politics or the military? Isn't that what it meant?

17 A. An extremist or criminal of any ethnic background is the same.

18 Q. Just returning briefly to the officer Aziz Aliskovic, did you hear

19 of him being part of a detachment in control of a checkpoint at Hambarine?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And do you know if that officer was in control of that checkpoint

22 when the incident involving the death of some Serbs took place?

23 A. I know what I heard.

24 Q. Tell us what you heard. Did you, amongst the things you heard,

25 hear of him being in charge when that checkpoint -- there was an incident

1 at that checkpoint?

2 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly, but I think that the zone

3 of responsibility of the Ljubija station extended to Tukovi. And I

4 believe, but I do not affirm, that Aziz was on regular duty at the

5 checkpoint at Hambarine just as the rest of us were assigned to other

6 checkpoints.

7 Q. Can you put a date on the incident when some Serbs had been

8 approaching in a vehicle and managed to get themselves killed?

9 A. I cannot.

10 Q. Even approximately. Was it early May, 1992?

11 A. Maybe even later.

12 Q. Witness D, as to your fellow officers who served with you as

13 reserve police officers, how many were there who were working with you?

14 A. I do not know exactly. Some were on duty which means that they

15 were -- would not come to the station, they were on duty in Surkovac so I

16 would not be able to tell you the exact number. We were never able to all

17 gather at the station.

18 Q. Of course. Are you able to give us an approximate figure for how

19 many were involved, Witness D?

20 A. Up to 50, perhaps.

21 Q. Of those officers, were they exclusively Muslim or were they of

22 mixed ethnicity?

23 A. Of mixed ethnicity.

24 Q. If I can move on now, please, to your first -- the first occasion

25 when you were detained, which I think was about 10 days after you were

1 dismissed from the reserve police; is that right?

2 A. More or less.

3 Q. And it was on that same day, was it not, that you became aware of

4 Serbs in military uniform close to your own home; is that correct?

5 A. Even before my arrest.

6 Q. And those soldiers it was, I think, who gave you advice, if I can

7 call it that, about your -- the women of the area taking off valuables to

8 prevent looters.

9 A. I think you are not quite right, sir. I mentioned -- I said that

10 it happened at the time when Ljubija was searched.

11 Q. Well, it perhaps matters not when it took place. It's just simply

12 I want to establish that some Serb soldiers gave you that advice at some

13 stage; is that right?

14 A. Yes, it is right, sir.

15 Q. And those same soldiers indicated to you that they would put on a

16 show of searching your house but wouldn't damage or steal anything?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. And did they keep to their word concerning that?

19 A. At that time, yes.

20 Q. Turning now to the second occasion when you were arrested --

21 A. Excuse me, I was still not arrested.

22 Q. Well, can we come to the 18th or 19th of June. At that stage you

23 were detained; is that right?

24 A. It is.

25 Q. And it was in the early hours of the 19th of June that some men

1 came to fetch you and you were taken away?

2 A. No, it was later. It was about 7.00 or 8.00.

3 Q. Well, in any event, you were taken to the police station; is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Amongst those who were detained at the same time, were there two

7 Albanians?

8 A. Not that evening.

9 Q. Perhaps I can just refresh your memory again, Witness D. What you

10 told the Office of the Prosecutor in relation to the 19th of June was that

11 you were detained at around 4.00 or 5.00 a.m., you were taken to the

12 police station, that at the police station, other men were loaded into the

13 van, two of whom were Albanians, one nicknamed - and if I mispronounce it,

14 I apologise - Zvjezdas who owned a cake shop in Prijedor and the other one

15 named Fejzo. Do you remember telling the Office of the Prosecutor that?

16 A. It is correct, but I'm referring to the 18th, to the evening of

17 the 18th.

18 Q. I have been asking you, Witness D, and if you'd concentrate on the

19 questions, I've been asking you about the 19th of June. Can you please

20 concentrate on that?

21 A. Yes. It is correct as for the 19th, but I'm telling you that it

22 was in the evening hours of the 18th that I was taken to the police

23 station.

24 Q. I'll just clarify that. You were collected on the evening of the

25 18th, you were taken home?

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. [Previous translation continues]... you were sent home in the

3 following morning --

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. -- that you -- and taken back to the police station?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. It was subsequent to that that you were taken to Keraterm?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When you got to Keraterm, is this correct that you were in

10 possession of about 100 Deutsche mark and that money was not taken from

11 you upon your being searched?

12 A. No. I did not have German marks, and the money that I did have,

13 they did not take away except the cigarettes.

14 Q. I was going to ask you about that. Only cigarettes and a lighter

15 were taken from you?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. When you got to Keraterm, how many other people were already there

18 who were detained?

19 A. Many.

20 Q. Can you help us as to what you mean by "many," please, Witness D?

21 A. Even ten men detained in a camp is too many, and not to mention

22 hundreds or perhaps a thousand or more. This is really too much.

23 Q. Witness D, I didn't ask you to give us a speech. Can you just

24 tell us, please - it's quite a simple question - how many people were

25 detained in the camp when you arrived?

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1 A. Many.

2 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I don't know whether it's me or whether

3 it's the witness, but I don't think we are making very much progress in

4 getting an answer to this question. It's a proper and relevant question.

5 In my submission, he should answer it.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: The question is: How many people were detained

7 in the camp when you arrived?

8 A. Sir, I cannot know the exact number, and it is a question whether

9 anyone will know the answer to it. Some people were inside, some were

10 outside. There was a mass of people outside. And it is impossible to

11 tell, it is impossible to count them, and impossible to say how --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you give us an estimate?

13 A. I said it, a few hundred and over a thousand.

14 MR. GREAVES:

15 Q. The personnel who were employed or working as guards in the camp,

16 Witness D, it's right, isn't it, that you were able to observe that they

17 were wearing all sorts of uniforms?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Does that indicate to you that all sorts of different units and

20 different types of people were engaged in guarding Keraterm?

21 A. Different types of units? I don't understand the question.

22 [Technical difficulty]

23 MR. GREAVES: I fear we may have to wait until it's working again,

24 Your Honour. Might I sit down whilst we await that, please?

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes. It's being checked. The problem has

1 been resolved. You may resume.

2 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your Honour. It's come at a

3 moment when I'd like to go into private session, please.

4 [Private session]

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4 [Open session]

5 MR. GREAVES:

6 Q. Witness D, would you accept that your total length of stay at

7 Keraterm was approximately two weeks?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I want to ask you now briefly about somebody called Zoran Zigic.

10 You heard of that person whilst you were in Keraterm; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, and seen on a few occasions.

12 Q. And when you saw him, is it right that you knew him from before

13 the war; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When you saw him, is it right that you saw him dressed not in

16 military uniform but in civilian clothes?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And whilst you heard from others that he had mistreated people in

19 Keraterm, you, yourself, saw nothing of that?

20 A. No.

21 Q. I'd like to turn now, please, if we may, to one or two individual

22 incidents. First of all, incidents involving Albanians, please, which

23 took place on the 20th of June. Was one of those who was beaten that

24 night the man who'd been at the police station with you, Zvjezdas, the man

25 with the cake shop or the ice cream shop at the bus station?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was one of the reasons why that person was being ill-treated was

3 because of an interest in where his money was, where his valuables were?

4 A. I wouldn't know.

5 Q. Apart from the Albanians that you've mentioned, were there many

6 other Albanians at the Keraterm facility?

7 A. I know about two more in my room.

8 Q. Did you hear of others anywhere else in the -- at Keraterm from

9 other detainees?

10 A. Yes, and that evening when they beat them, I heard that there were

11 more of them.

12 Q. Were you aware of Serbs who were being detained at Keraterm?

13 A. Apart from Jovo Radocaj, no, I was not aware of others.

14 Q. If we can now turn to Jovo, the Serb. Would you accept this, that

15 the focus and reason why he was singled out for ill-treatment was because

16 of the suggestion that he had voted for the SDA and/or that he had posters

17 of Alija Izetbegovic at his home?

18 A. Possibly.

19 Q. And if we can put a date on that event, would that be about the

20 third day that you were in Keraterm?

21 A. I cannot really say.

22 Q. If I can just refresh your memory again from what you told the

23 Office of the Prosecutor, you told them it was about 7.00 or 8.00 p.m. on

24 the third day in Keraterm. Does that refresh your memory, Witness D?

25 A. 7.00 or 8.00, yes, but I also said that I could not really say the

1 date or the day when it happened.

2 Q. Turning now, please, to Drago Tokmadzic, he was Croat; is that

3 correct?

4 A. It is.

5 Q. Is the reason why he was beaten because he was an active

6 policeman?

7 A. I do not know. All I know is that when they called him out, or

8 rather when they took him out, that one of them, those who had come after

9 him, said, "Are you the one who beats up children?"

10 Q. You yourself were beaten by a man called Duca Knezevic; is that

11 correct?

12 A. I did not know his name at the time, but I heard it from others

13 and I was told it by others who knew him well.

14 Q. It's correct, isn't it, that he was not a guard at the camp?

15 A. It is.

16 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, my attention is drawn to the fact that

17 his answer was given was, "Are you the one who beats up Serb children,"

18 has appeared on the transcript as lacking the word "Serb".

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we take note of that.

20 MR. GREAVES:

21 Q. The man, Drago Tokmadzic, died at the camp and was taken away, is

22 it right, in a hearse, a conventional hearse of the kind that we're all

23 familiar with?

24 A. Excuse me, was that a question for me?

25 Q. I hope so.

1 A. Drago Tokmadzic was taken away in a black van. I could not see

2 whether it was a hearse but I doubt it.

3 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, there must be a mistake here in the

4 interpretation, because I wasn't listening to the Bosnian but a hearse

5 could never be explained as a coffin. Because what witness is using the

6 word "coffin" and the learned counsel is using the word "hearse".

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thanks for your explanation, Mr. Vucicevic.

8 MR. GREAVES:

9 Q. What about Jovo, was his body removed in a black vehicle belonging

10 to Pasinac Cemetery?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was it the same vehicle that was used to take Tokmadzic away?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. GREAVES: May we go into private session, please?

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

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6 [Open session]

7 MR. GREAVES:

8 Q. It's correct, is it not, Witness D, that on at least one occasion,

9 a doctor came to Keraterm?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Apart from that incident, were there other occasions during your

12 stay at Keraterm when you heard of a doctor being present on the

13 premises?

14 A. As far as I know, a doctor came only once, and I mean Dr. Hasim,

15 but nurses -- Mica Kobas, a male nurse, came on a few times.

16 Q. And did the male nurse give treatment to people, dispense

17 medicine, and so on?

18 A. Yes. Some powder, lice powder.

19 Q. Your transfer to Omarska took place on the 4th of July. Were some

20 or all of the people from your district also transferred at the same

21 time?

22 A. No. Those from my neighbourhood -- those born in my neighbourhood

23 but lived in other places, they were not transferred.

24 Q. Witness D, can you help me about this? During your time as a

25 reserve police officer, did you become aware of the establishment of a

1 second police station in Prijedor?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you tell us, how was the new police station which was

4 established, how was it called? What was it called?

5 A. Name? I don't know how to put it. The police station became a

6 Serb police station. I don't know if that would be its name. If that's

7 what you would call a name, then you could say that it was called the Serb

8 police station.

9 Q. And did you discover if that police station had

10 command-and-control responsibility for Keraterm and Trnopolje and places

11 like that?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Did you, as part of your duties as a police officer, know of a man

14 called Zivko Knezevic?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Or become aware of him in connection with Keraterm camp at all?

17 A. I did not hear of him.

18 Q. Turning now, please, to your being at Manjaca. I'm not sure how

19 to pronounce that. You arrived there on the 5th of August of 1992?

20 A. On the 6th.

21 Q. The 6th. Was that a place which was being run under the auspices

22 of the International Committee of the Red Cross?

23 A. Not at that time.

24 Q. Did there come a time when it was supervised by the ICRC, the

25 International Committee of the Red Cross?

1 A. Later on, yes. The International Red Cross did come but I don't

2 think that it was under them.

3 Q. At that place, is it right that -- where exactly is that in

4 relation to Prijedor? How far away is it?

5 A. Prijedor, Banja Luka, and then Banja Luka, Seher, and then to the

6 right up a winding road to the camp. It was a military farm before the

7 war, and it was a military testing ground.

8 Q. You were released and went off, I think, in a Red Cross convoy to

9 Karlovac; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you help us about this? Were you aware of, whilst you were in

12 Keraterm, of somebody called Bajazit Jakupovic, who was a pilot?

13 A. No.

14 Q. The numbers of people who were detained in Keraterm, about which

15 you've talked, would this be correct, they were, whilst you were in

16 Keraterm, fully in the power of the Serb authorities; were they not?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Would you accept that there was nothing to prevent the

19 authorities, the Serb authorities, if they had so chosen, from killing all

20 of you who were detained at Keraterm?

21 A. I doubt very much that something like that existed, but I do not

22 know exactly.

23 Q. As far as numbers of people detained whilst you were at Omarska,

24 please, Witness D, can you give us an estimate of how many people were

25 there when you were there?

1 A. 1.000 to 2.000.

2 Q. And again, those people were fully in the power of the Serb

3 authorities whilst detained at Omarska, were they not?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And again, it's right, isn't it, that there was nothing which

6 existed to prevent those same Serb authorities from killing all the

7 prisoners who were in Omarska at any time?

8 A. If there was something like that, I do not know of it, but based

9 on their behaviour, I doubt that anything like that existed.

10 MR. GREAVES: Would you just give me a moment, please, Your

11 Honour? Thank you very much, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Rodic?

13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] May it please the court.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Go ahead.

15 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Rodic:

17 Q. Witness D, good morning, I am attorney Rodic and I'm a part of the

18 counsel for Damir Dosen. Even though my learned friend Greaves has asked

19 you a number of questions, I will -- I may repeat some of those, but

20 looking for different answers from you. You said that you served in the

21 Yugoslav People's Army in 1983-84, first in Lujbljana and then in

22 Curkovica. Would you please explain to the Trial Chamber what you

23 remember from those days of your national duty regarding the organisation,

24 discipline, subordination in the military?

25 A. What I -- I have the best possible memories, things that can

1 happen to a young man who is a fresh soldier.

2 Q. Can you say something about the organisation, discipline, and

3 subordination?

4 A. Everything was organised, everything was under command and

5 control. As I said, I can say only the best.

6 Q. Those who were high in rank were obeyed, the orders were carried

7 out?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. After you completed your service, you became part of the reserve?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Where were you assigned in reserve?

12 A. To the infantry. I cannot give you the exact code for it.

13 Q. What were you issued in terms of weapons in the reserve?

14 A. M-48 rifle.

15 Q. When you were transferred to the reserve, did you ever have any

16 military exercises and if you were involved in any, what number?

17 A. I cannot remember the numbers. We were once at Manjaca and once

18 at Bukova Kosa, that as you are going to Dubica, and several times in the

19 barracks, and the last time Karac.

20 Q. When you were on active duty, and I see that you have taken part

21 in the reserve substantially, was there any difference in terms of was the

22 discipline more lax in the reserve?

23 A. In the reserve, yes.

24 Q. Is that a characteristic of the reserve? Can you agree on that?

25 A. In fact it may be easier to deal with younger men than with older

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1 ones.

2 Q. Regarding the military exercise in September of 1991 when your

3 infantry unit took part, can you tell me how did it look at that time?

4 What was it like in light of the conflicts already taking place in the

5 former Yugoslavia?

6 A. Everything was regular except for some unusual things. We were

7 given much more military equipment, we could take as much as we wanted,

8 and different type of weapons. Perhaps that would be the difference in

9 relation to the previous exercises.

10 Q. But all this was turned in after the exercise was over?

11 A. Just the weapons.

12 Q. You were already asked and you responded that in October 1991, you

13 were called up for mobilisation?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you stated a precise reason. Was that the only reason while

16 you refused to be called up?

17 A. You mean the fratricidal fighting and the reasons for it?

18 Q. Yes. But after that you said that you were one of the initiators

19 of the rally in Prijedor?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you tell us how many people were there, approximately?

22 A. A couple of thousand.

23 Q. How did that rally end?

24 A. After the broadcast on the radio, that is the speech of the

25 president of the municipality, we simply dispersed.

1 Q. Did something happen after the rally, something similar?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Tell me, was there a counter-rally held, organised by the Serb and

4 the non-Serb population after this rally?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. After the call-up which you refused to respond to, you were never

7 called up again?

8 A. No, except over the radio.

9 Q. But can you tell me, did you suffer any consequences because of

10 your refusal to respond to the call-up and because of the organisation of

11 the rally?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And do you know that at that time a refusal to respond to a

14 call-up and asking others to not respond was considered a criminal act?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Were you afraid of what the consequences may have been for your

17 actions?

18 A. No. There was a large mass of people there.

19 Q. At the time when this was going on regarding the rally, was Bosnia

20 a part of the -- of Yugoslavia or was it independent?

21 A. It was independent.

22 Q. In your opinion, when did it become independent?

23 A. In 1991.

24 Q. Can you give us an exact day or approximate date?

25 A. I cannot recall it now.

1 Q. You said that you worked in the iron mining company and that due

2 to the war, there was not enough work.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The situation in which you find yourself in that period of time

5 had nothing to do with the ethnic situation?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In that period, say up to May 1992, except for the problems at

8 checkpoints, the controls and so on, did Serbs and Muslims both continue

9 to go to work?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. As -- and the period of late 1991 early 1992, during that period

12 were there Croats and Muslims who were members of the JNA units?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were Croats and Muslims in the JNA units, that is, in the

15 Territorial Defence units at that time, were there some -- did some of

16 these Croats and Muslims take part in the fighting, in the wars in other

17 parts of the former Yugoslavia?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell me, until the end of April 1992 were there any major

20 problems in the territory of Prijedor municipality?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You know that power changed on the 30th of April 1992. At that

23 time did you know the reason, was that explained why this took place?

24 A. Yes. The reason that was given was that the parties could not

25 agree on the division of power and that for that reason, the SDS was

1 taking over everything in their own hands, and this was a public

2 announcement on the radio.

3 Q. Could you be more specific? Which parties were unable to agree,

4 and they could not agree on what powers?

5 A. SDS, HDZ, and SDA, and it regarded the division of power in the

6 Prijedor municipality, the appointment of managers to certain companies

7 and so on.

8 Q. So the problem was in the execution? The power was already in

9 place, the president of the municipality, the vice-president, and they

10 were all members of these parties, so it was the implementation of the

11 decisions that was problematic?

12 A. Yes, and some of the positions had not been filled.

13 Q. Now, tell me about the takeover of power. Did it result in any

14 casualties, if you know?

15 A. I don't.

16 Q. Did you hear anything about that?

17 A. During the takeover, I don't -- I did not hear of any casualties

18 during the takeover.

19 Q. When you spoke about your call-up to join the reserve police, you

20 said that you were called for an interview with Rade Zekan?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was that an active-duty policeman?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. On that occasion, was Aziz Aliskovic with him?

25 A. Yes. I excluded Aziz, because he stayed in the car while I talked

1 to Rade.

2 Q. At that moment was Aziz also an active-duty police officer?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you tell me when and where were you issued a reserve police

5 uniform?

6 A. I was issued it in Prijedor, in the police station, one day before

7 the takeover of power in town.

8 Q. Did you have the right size, given your height?

9 A. It was difficult.

10 Q. Can you please tell me, regarding Esad Islamovic and Drago

11 Tokmadzic, you said that they were fired. Do you know how it happened and

12 why it happened? Was it because they did -- they refused to continue to

13 be in the police after the takeover of power?

14 A. I know what I heard from Esad, and I also talked to Drago about

15 it. A similar thing happened to both of them. The colleagues with whom

16 they had worked, at about the same time - this has happening in two

17 different locations - turned weapons on them, and told that they had to

18 leave their posts and they had to go home, and from there on the Serbs

19 were taking over everything, and that it would be an exclusively Serb

20 police from there on.

21 Q. Did they tell you when exactly this happened?

22 A. 2.00 or 3.00 in the morning.

23 Q. So this was already early on the 30th of April?

24 A. Or the 31st.

25 Q. Is it true that they nevertheless continued to work in the police?

1 A. That is correct.

2 Q. How do you explain this situation if previously they had been told

3 that non-Serbs had no place in the police?

4 A. You see, sir, there was still the civil police. And what I mean

5 by that is that, regardless of their ethnicity, they could work there.

6 Q. This police in Ljubija, was it composed of Serbs as well?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When you were called up to join the reserve police, did anybody

9 mention as an obstacle, or as some kind of a problem, your organisation of

10 the rally and your refusal to join?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And do you know what reasons were given for the increased number

13 of police officers so that also the reserves were activated?

14 A. For the steadily -- the reasons was the steadily worsening

15 situation.

16 Q. Can you tell me, have you heard of Milutin Cadjo? And what did

17 Cadjo do after the takeover in the police?

18 A. I had heard of Cadjo even before, while he was still a policeman

19 in Ljubija, but I wouldn't be able to tell you what exactly he was.

20 Q. Was he a commander of the police in Ljubija before the war?

21 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you.

22 Q. Before the war, the commander was Baja Bjekic. And before Baja?

23 A. I don't know.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic, can you tell me how long your

25 cross-examination will be? How much longer?

1 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will need more than one

2 hour, perhaps one hour and 15, one hour 20 minutes, because the witness

3 mentioned our client the most.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I appreciate that. And Mr. Vucicevic?

5 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I wish I could answer your question

6 but I can't because, first, the cross-examination of Mr. Rodic has not

7 been finished, and after I get that information, I might be able to give

8 you some estimate. But it seems to me that the witness is rather

9 informative and some questions are -- I don't know how much the witness is

10 going to answer, so I cannot give you answer to the question. I wish I

11 could but I can't.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, as I said at the beginning of the day, we

15 are making every effort to conclude this witness's testimony today. I

16 think, with the cooperation of the interpreters, we can go for another ten

17 minutes. Another ten minutes before taking the break.

18 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Q. You said that on the 1st of May, 1992 in the afternoon, you first

20 started working as a reserve policeman?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You also mentioned during your examination-in-chief that you were

23 refreshing your handling of the weapons when you were first issued it at

24 the police?

25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Had you ever had --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the question?

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you repeat the question, counsel? Repeat

4 the last question?

5 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. My last question was whether you had any previous contact with the

7 police service before.

8 THE INTERPRETER: We could not hear the witness' answer.

9 A. No, no, I did not.

10 Q. Could you briefly describe that first working day when you

11 reported to the police station and were assigned your tasks?

12 A. I mentioned already that all members of the reserve force went out

13 together with active-duty policemen so my first day there was more or less

14 like this. A vehicle from the station came to my home, since the

15 checkpoint is -- was away from my home, and together with an active-duty

16 policeman, Ismet Taras, we drove to the checkpoint.

17 Q. And before you left for the checkpoint, did anyone tell you

18 anything about the task before you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And that was who?

21 A. Excuse me, who told me? Ismet did.

22 Q. Ismet who?

23 A. Taras.

24 Q. And he was what?

25 A. Active-duty policeman.

1 Q. But do you understand what I'm asking? Was he just a policeman on

2 the beat, a patrolman, or did he have a rank?

3 A. No, he was just a plain police officer.

4 Q. And when he told you about your task, did he sound like

5 transmitting to you the order of somebody who was above him?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And who was that?

8 A. The chief of the police station.

9 Q. That was Branko Bjekic, was it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And with regard to the powers of policemen, their rights and

12 duties, in terms of the arrest procedure or the procedure of taking under

13 custody, procedure of detention, in terms of the official record of a

14 possible criminal report, did you undergo any training there at all? Did

15 you receive any instructions?

16 A. No, I had no training, and the same holds true of the fact that we

17 were not authorised to either bring somebody under custody or perhaps

18 collect fines, or even we were not entitled to even any fuel because we

19 were simply cut off from Prijedor.

20 Q. What I asked you a moment ago, it did not have to do with the

21 situation in Prijedor or Ljubija. What I meant was you, as a policeman,

22 who is for the first time working for the police as a reserve policeman,

23 and things that I just listed are some of the things that the policemen

24 learn at school or attend courses, have special training. So that was the

25 gist of my question. Did you have any training, any instructions?

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic, may I ask what is the relevance of

2 that to the question of the guilt or innocence of your client, the scope

3 of his training as a reserve policeman? How does that affect the guilt or

4 innocence of your client?

5 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think it is of quite a

6 high relevance because the Chamber and the Prosecution compare Witness D

7 who was a reserve policeman like our client, like our accused, and we

8 wish -- and it is an attempt to show the real status, the real knowledge

9 they had of the police, of the police rights and duties, a trained

10 policeman.

11 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour --

12 MR. VUCICEVIC: If I may suggest --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just, Mr. Rodic -- please go ahead, but please

14 try and take it very quickly.

15 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. Just one

16 more thing. The indictment says, "Also as active-duty policeman, Damir

17 Dosen, Dusan Fustar, Dragan Kolundzija independently of this were bound to

18 apply laws in force in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina and protect

19 life and property of civilian persons."

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Go ahead.

21 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic, perhaps we'll take the break now.

24 We'll take the break now. Before we do that, however, Judge May is going

25 to raise something with Mr. Vucicevic in relation to the matters he

1 mentioned yesterday.

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Vucicevic, yesterday you raised the question of

3 the documents which you had obtained from the UN, and you referred to some

4 correspondence with me as the then Presiding Judge in this matter. It's

5 right that there was correspondence, or at least you informed of what had

6 happened. You did not send us, of course, the documents, but you sent us

7 the correspondence with the UN, and we've also heard from the UN on this

8 subject.

9 I've now had the opportunity of refreshing my memory of that

10 correspondence and the position is this: That you, of course, cannot,

11 because of the conditions which you accepted, disclose that correspondence

12 or any documents that you discovered, without the consent, the written

13 consent of the UN if you want to put them into evidence. Now, that being

14 so, the right course to adopt is for you to indicate to the UN those

15 documents that you intend to adduce in evidence, and following the

16 conditions which they have laid down, seek their consent in order to do

17 so.

18 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I believe the confidentiality letter

19 that was sent to me and that I have accepted in principle was there to

20 prevent any wide distribution of the material, not to undermine the future

21 peacekeeping operation of the United Nations.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

23 MR. VUCICEVIC: However, this Court being United Nations body, I

24 believe the office -- I don't have document in front of me and you know

25 you do have advantage having refreshed your memory and I haven't, but I

1 believe at the discretion of the Trial Chamber to accept some of the

2 documents in the close session, but not of the United Nations whether they

3 would agree or not agree whether this -- this is becoming a travesty,

4 then, of the proceedings.

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Vucicevic, go back and read the document which is

6 quite plain as to the course which you should follow if you wish to adduce

7 these documents in evidence. The first thing you must do is to refer them

8 to the UN. Read the letter which you have agreed to, follow those

9 conditions, and then you can tell us what happened.

10 But just remind me, how many documents is it that you want to

11 produce?

12 MR. VUCICEVIC: Well, Your Honour, I don't know that I -- after

13 your previous ruling, and am I at liberty to say anything?

14 JUDGE MAY: Just answer the question. Is it 17 or 27? I forget,

15 just tell us.

16 MR. VUCICEVIC: There was 25 to 27, those were banker -- hold on,

17 you know, that's not -- I didn't finish, you know, what I had to say.

18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Vucicevic, don't interrupt the Court. Don't be

19 impertinent. Now, it's 25 or 27. Follow the instructions of the UN, and

20 then you might be able to adduce them into evidence. But you have agreed

21 to those conditions, read them again, and follow them.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take the adjournment until 2.30. You are

23 reminded, Witness D, not to discuss your evidence with anybody including

24 members of the Prosecution team.

25 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.15 p.m.

1 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic, just a second. Mr. Vucicevic?

3 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have a special request from the interpreters

5 that when you speak, you should wait until the other person who is

6 speaking also finishes, so as to prevent overlapping. They are having

7 immense difficulty in the interpreting when you're speaking, so please

8 take that into account.

9 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Your Honour and --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Also if counsellor could be advised to put on

11 the microphone when speaking?

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Rodic?

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Just before my friend does, may I just make one

14 other observation? I understand my friend Mr. Vucicevic is fluent in both

15 languages and therefore doesn't need to wear headphones, but if he wears

16 his headphones, he'll be able to hear when the translator is finished and

17 that might give him his cue.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I did notice that he doesn't wear the

19 headphones. It would help if you wore the headphones.

20 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I'm extremely grateful to the

21 suggestion. I tried but the thought process while I'm thinking, if I'm

22 listening too, then it's difficult to concentrate. So as I said, I think

23 it would be a little easier if I'm just looking at the transcript. When

24 transcript is given, I start with the question.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Thanks very much. I'm sure we will

1 do better. Yes, Mr. Rodic?

2 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

3 Q. Witness D, before the break, we left off with questions about the

4 reserve police officers. As a reserve police officer, did you receive any

5 salary?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You had no remuneration with respect to that activity?

8 A. No. Neither did anybody else from the reserve, in the reserve

9 force.

10 Q. Could you explain in some detail the structure of the police

11 station where you worked?

12 A. Until the last day of my duty, it was mixed, and the day after I

13 left, it was still a multiethnic organisation.

14 Q. And if I were asked -- if I asked you about the structure, that is

15 the number of police officers there and their structure?

16 A. It would not be easy for me to do that. For a while some police

17 officers did not come to work at all. Some were on duty but not coming to

18 the police station, so I really could not explain it well for you.

19 Q. But could you be able to tell me with respect to the tasks given

20 to the police officers in your police station? Did they provide security

21 for certain facilities? What would have fallen within the scope of their

22 activities?

23 A. The tasks of the reserve forces at that time and the police itself

24 consisted of trying to calm down the population and controlling the

25 weapons and so on.

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1 Q. Here you mentioned that specifically your task was at a

2 checkpoint?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. The other policemen in the police station were also assigned to

5 various checkpoints or assigned to duties of providing security to various

6 facilities?

7 A. The police men from the Miska Glava village were there; and those

8 from the Surkovac were in Surkovac; in Rasko, from Rasko. We from Donja

9 Ljubija were at Donja Ljubija. Whereas the active police officers

10 coordinated their work with them.

11 Q. Did that involve and include, in addition to the tasks at

12 checkpoint, patrols?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did reserve police officers also go on these patrols?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, can you tell me about the structure of the police station in

17 terms of its command structure?

18 A. The commander was Baja Bjekic. His deputy was Komosar, another

19 Serb.

20 Q. Very well, were there any shift leaders, duty officers, patrol

21 heads?

22 A. There were patrol officers and, we who were in the reserve, went

23 along with them.

24 Q. I understood that, but you mentioned Commander Bjekic, Deputy

25 Komosar. In addition to those, were there the duties that I just

1 mentioned to you, were --

2 A. No.

3 Q. You don't know?

4 A. No, I don't know.

5 Q. Now, can you tell me whether the reserve policemen in your station

6 had any ranks?

7 A. Some of them.

8 Q. You're referring now to the reserve police officers?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you know some of these ranks?

11 A. Corporal, sergeant.

12 Q. Did you have any ranks?

13 A. No.

14 Q. The ranks which you mentioned were the lowest ranks in this

15 hierarchy?

16 A. I believe so.

17 Q. Another question in this area: Could you make any significant

18 decisions about your work without a commander or whoever was your leader?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that you had heard about the incident at

21 Hambarine where there was an exchange of fire between the people manning

22 the checkpoint and some Serbs who were in a vehicle?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know who was manning that checkpoint at Hambarine?

25 A. No.

1 Q. You don't know who was there?

2 A. I know that Aziz was in charge of it, but I don't know who was on

3 duty at the time except from what I've heard, but I'm trying only to limit

4 myself to what I know 100 per cent.

5 Q. And this is what is also convenient to me.

6 A. But it is not convenient to me, because I don't consider these

7 questions to be significant and I find them very exhausting.

8 Q. Let the Trial Chamber decide on that.

9 Could you tell me, at that point, do you know whether Aziz

10 Aliskovic was an active duty police officer?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And could you tell me specifically what your task was at the

13 checkpoint? What were you supposed to do?

14 A. Control vehicles, and calming down of the tense situation in the

15 population, among the population.

16 Q. And did you have any authority to use weapons?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And just one additional question relating to Hambarine. Did they,

19 in the ultimatum that they had issued, did they ask for the surrender of

20 Aliskovic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You mentioned that in May 1992 you were transferred to Donja

23 Ljubija as a police officer.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. This happened in spite of the takeover of power and the armed

1 conflict at Hambarine.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you have any position there?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You said that you were first detained 10 days after you were

6 relieved of duty as a police officer.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you tell me approximately when that was?

9 A. In June 1992.

10 Q. Do you know the time when Drago Tokmadzic and Esad Islamovic were

11 arrested?

12 A. Two or three days before my arrest.

13 Q. Your first arrest or your second arrest?

14 A. In the night of the 18th and 19th. So that means it was before

15 the 19th.

16 Q. You said that you were arrested for the second time on the 18th.

17 A. The first time.

18 Q. A little while ago you mentioned that you were first arrested

19 about 10 days after being relieved of duty.

20 A. My first detention was on the 18th of June when I was arrested and

21 brought to the police station.

22 Q. And before that you were never detained.

23 A. No.

24 Q. As you're putting a 10-day period, that would mean that you left

25 the reserves around the 8th of June?

1 A. I did say it was in early June.

2 Q. Can you tell me, do you know anything about the attack on

3 Prijedor, how many people were involved?

4 A. No, just what I heard.

5 Q. And can you tell me, do you know that Esad Islamovic continued to

6 work after the attack on Prijedor?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did he tell you something about his work on identification and

9 arrest of persons involved in that attack?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Today in your examination-in-chief you mentioned that Serb

12 extremists were criminals, that this is how you referred to them. I would

13 like to know whether there were extremists on the other side too?

14 A. I said that Komosar said that he would stay behind to prevent the

15 entry of the Serb extremists in the police station. That meant that we

16 who were Croats and Muslims had to leave the police station and that the

17 Serbs would come, and that among those Serbs, he would select those who

18 were better. And as far as the Muslim extremists are concerned, if we are

19 referring to the thieves and criminals, I know of those, who had criminal

20 records from before, who had convictions earlier.

21 Q. Do you know who Slavko Acimovic is, from Tukovi?

22 A. I have heard of him but I did not know him.

23 Q. What did you hear about him?

24 A. That he was one of the organisers in the attempt of liberating

25 Prijedor.

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1 Q. Do you know of Halim Mesic from Cela?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you know of Mesic called Hadja from Raskovac?

4 A. I've heard of him.

5 Q. What did you hear of him?

6 A. I heard that they took part in the attempt to liberate Prijedor.

7 Q. Do you know a Jasmin Alisic called Jama from Tukovi?

8 A. I heard of him.

9 Q. What did you hear of him?

10 A. I think that he was a butcher there.

11 Q. You don't know anything else about him?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you know of Kemo called Divljak?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. How do you know about him?

16 A. Everybody knew Kemo.

17 Q. The Trial Chamber does not know. Could you explain?

18 A. Kemo had been in prisons before the war. This is what I know

19 about him.

20 Q. Were these individuals commanders of certain units that took part

21 in the attack on Prijedor?

22 A. I do not know that.

23 Q. You mentioned a person named Ikanovic whom you heard he was

24 killed. This is in relation to the people at the stadium.

25 A. That was at the start of the search.

1 Q. Do you know his first name?

2 A. Smajo Ikanovic.

3 Q. You said Smajo?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. One of the person who worked -- persons who worked with you was

6 Milan Curguz from Kalje [phoen]?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you know this man?

9 A. Yes, I do, but he worked there after me.

10 Q. And do you know that he brought food to Keraterm?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. Do you know to whom he was bringing food?

13 A. I think that once he brought it for me, too.

14 Q. Did he have any problem in entering Keraterm and delivering this

15 to you and others?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you know Simo Savic, active policeman from Ljubija?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you know what happened to him?

20 A. During the attack on Hambarine, I think he could no longer come to

21 work. That is, after the Serb takeover in Prijedor, he transferred to

22 work in Prijedor.

23 Q. And why was he unable to come to work?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. I would like to move to some questions about the organisation of

1 security at Keraterm. I would like to know your personal impression based

2 on your stay and your experience, which would include both your military

3 and police experience. Did this look to you like an organised unit?

4 A. Had it been an organised unit, things that happened would not have

5 happened. And if we look at the deployment of the sentry posts, the

6 machine-gun nests, and the way we were kept under lock, I think it was

7 fairly well organised.

8 Q. What I'm interested in is the organisation, in a sense of order

9 and discipline, subordination, relationship between the subordinates and

10 their superiors and so on.

11 A. As far as the respect went, I think what was respected was the law

12 of the might, of those who were mightier.

13 Q. Did the commanders order beatings of certain detainees or did

14 these beatings took place -- take place on the will of the guards?

15 A. I don't know about that.

16 Q. Did you ever hear any commander issue orders to beat any

17 detainees?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And do you know whether any of the detainees reported to anyone

20 that they had been beaten or mistreated?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And do you know why?

23 A. Because they were afraid.

24 Q. Who were they afraid of specifically?

25 A. The guards.

1 Q. You mean a guard that had beaten him?

2 A. And everybody else.

3 Q. How would that coincide with what I have asked you before? In

4 other words, could you link those two things?

5 A. I did not quite understand. I don't know what you're trying to

6 hear.

7 Q. If the fear prevented them from reporting, that is, the fear of

8 guards, would that imply that the guards would have been punished had it

9 been found out that they were -- had they been beaten?

10 A. This is a very difficult question for me. A commander or guard in

11 this particular case is one and the same. A commander could only be

12 identified by the respect or compliance of the guards, but let me try to

13 give you an example.

14 Q. Go ahead.

15 A. For instance, Banovic could only be disciplined or curbed by Kajin

16 because he was afraid of him.

17 Q. That would confirm what you said, that it was really the law of

18 the mightier that ruled?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You spent time both at Keraterm, Omarska, and Manjaca. Could you

21 make a comparison between Keraterm and Omarska? What was more difficult?

22 A. At Keraterm fewer people were killed than in Omarska. And as far

23 as conditions are concerned, they were about the same.

24 Q. And with respect to the guards' shifts and the organisation of

25 security?

1 A. They were similar.

2 Q. Was there a command structure at Omarska?

3 A. If you counted the interrogators who interrogated us, yes. But

4 the same thing existed in Keraterm even though I did not go in for

5 questioning, but it was similar.

6 Q. And in what sense do you mean "in relation to the interrogators"?

7 A. In Keraterm there was a camp commander and shift commanders. At

8 Omarska there was a camp commander and shift commanders, except Omarska

9 was larger and had more interrogators.

10 Q. Do you know Zeljko Meakic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Miroslav Kvocka?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Mlado Radic called Krkan?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were these men those who were part of the structure there?

17 A. Two were shift commanders, and the first name you mentioned was

18 the camp commander.

19 Q. Were they all active-duty police officers?

20 A. I know of Krkan, but not about the other two.

21 Q. Could you now make comparison for me between Omarska, Keraterm,

22 and Manjaca? First of all, do you know what Manjaca was?

23 A. It was a military farm and also a military training camp.

24 Q. If we call it "camp" like Keraterm and Omarska, was that under the

25 military control?

1 A. Yes, it was.

2 Q. Can you give me a comparison of the conditions based on your

3 experience?

4 A. The most important thing was that we were beaten less. If a barn

5 can be called adequate conditions in comparison to Omarska and Keraterm,

6 it was fairly satisfactory, but only in comparison to Keraterm and

7 Omarska.

8 Q. And with respect to the organisation, was that more professional

9 than in the other two places?

10 A. By far.

11 Q. In the beginning of your direct examination, you told the Court

12 about your arrival in Keraterm.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you said it was the 19th of June.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Early morning.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And which shift was on duty that day, or which ones of the guards

19 or perhaps their leaders did you see then?

20 A. I don't know.

21 [Defence counsel confer]

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Were you familiar with the organisation of shifts in Keraterm;

24 when did they start, when did they go off duty?

25 A. I did not know it then. I learned about it subsequently. Anyone

1 could enter the Keraterm camp and at any time wearing any uniform, only

2 naturally, of course, if he was a Serb.

3 Q. Did you hear about at what times did the shifts change?

4 A. Well, it was sometime in the afternoon and in the morning, late

5 afternoon and the morning.

6 Q. So which means every 12 hours, would you agree with that?

7 A. I would.

8 Q. And how many shifts were there?

9 A. I didn't know at the time.

10 Q. And when did you learn about that?

11 A. Later on.

12 Q. So how many shifts were there?

13 A. Three.

14 Q. When you were asked about Kajin, you said his name was Damir

15 Dosenovic.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. That his brother was Drasko Dosenovic.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is it true that you said that you knew Damir for some eight or

20 nine years before the war, and that you met him two or three times?

21 A. Let me correct myself. Dosen, Drasko Dosen, Damir Dosen. And

22 even before that, as of the 1980s when we started school, I knew about

23 him. I had heard about him even though we were not in touch.

24 Q. With whom were you not in touch?

25 A. With Damir.

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1 Q. Does that mean that you never talked with him and that, as we call

2 it, by sight?

3 A. On the "Hello", "Hello" basis.

4 Q. Is Damir Dosen younger than you are?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And it is with Drasko Dosen that you attended the same grade.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what did you call him, Drasko?

9 A. I called him Drasko or Kajin.

10 Q. And Kajin?

11 A. Kajin.

12 Q. So the same nickname was used for both?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Only for the record, because it says, "Kajin, Kajin," and let us

15 correct. Was Damir called Kajin too?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You also mentioned a guard called Pilip?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And since when did you know him?

20 A. From the school days.

21 Q. Were you friends?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Could you say -- could we say that you know him well?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And with regard to your arrival in Keraterm, you testified -- you

1 stated earlier that that day, around 7.00 or 8.00 in the evening, you

2 recognised some of the guards on the night shift and you say that every --

3 that there were 12-hour shifts and that they were "Damir Dosenovic called

4 Kajin, elder brother Drasko Dosenovic, with whom I went to school

5 together, Mladen Pilipovic called Pilip, my fellow worker, and Dusan Madza

6 who also went to school with me"?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Is that correct?

9 A. It is. They all were on the same shift and I learnt that their

10 shift leader was Kajin.

11 [Cannot distinguish between Question and Answer]

12 Correct.

13 Q. And I saw him assign tasks to other guards?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. Could you please be more specific about those tasks?

16 A. It was some papers or lists or files, one could see him have

17 them. Others did not have any such thing. As for authority, whether was

18 it fear or was it rank, I wouldn't know. Right.

19 Q. Did you eye-witness some event, an incident in the camp when Kajin

20 tried to restrain Banovic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you tell us something more about it?

23 A. On one occasion when Banovic was about to beat somebody with a

24 baseball bat, I don't know whom, I saw Kajin come up to him and call him,

25 and after a brief altercation, they went together to the kiosk.

1 Q. And you don't know what happened then?

2 A. I don't. I apologise.

3 Q. And on that occasion, did he prevent Banovic from ill-treating

4 somebody?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know whom?

7 A. No.

8 Q. During your examination-in-chief yesterday and today -- or rather

9 yesterday, you testified, "After I came to Keraterm, I went to the first

10 room" and there that you met some acquaintances. Then you said, "In front

11 of Room 4, I recognised Drago Tokmadzic and Esad Islamovic." And they

12 told you that it was full but to put up there; is that correct?

13 A. More or less. In Room 1 they told me that they were also over

14 there, and I recognised many, many people, many people I knew, and then I

15 went to Room number 4.

16 Q. That is what you said today, that you were told that Drago and Eso

17 were in Room 4?

18 A. Possibly.

19 Q. Before that you stated that after you arrived in Keraterm, you

20 headed for Room 1, where you saw Bajram Jakupovic and, "After that I moved

21 to Room 2, where I saw two relatives of mine. And then I heard Drago

22 Tokmadzic and Esad Islamovic call out to me from Room 4, so I went to

23 them." Now, which of these -- this is true?

24 A. I wouldn't agree with that.

25 Q. All I can say is that your earlier statement to the investigators,

1 to the OTP investigator is what I just read out.

2 A. Well, it could be a mistake. I went to Room 1, and the two

3 relatives whom you mentioned were in Room 1, and then by Room 2 and 3, I

4 went to Room 4.

5 Q. In relation to the -- these task assignment lists and other things

6 that you mentioned, could you tell us where were you on such occasions?

7 A. Well, it depended on the situation in the camp.

8 Q. But during his shifts could you come out freely?

9 A. Not always.

10 Q. You said that the first day when you arrived in Keraterm that

11 there were very many people outside?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You also said that there were people who had burned from being in

14 the sun?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now I should like to ask you the following: You testified here

17 about how a Serb, Jovo Radocaj, was brought?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. During the examination-in-chief today, you said that Jovo Radocaj

20 on the second day of your stay at Keraterm was brought sometimes in night

21 hours, that he was put in "my room." Is that correct?

22 A. No. What I said was that Jovo was brought in the early days of my

23 imprisonment in late afternoon hours.

24 Q. The record says, "It was on my second day in Keraterm." In your

25 earlier statement, you say "on the third day of my stay" in the evening

1 hours, you saw them bring Jovo Radocaj near the weigh bridge. What is

2 correct of this?

3 A. I stated the order in which I put things are correct. The date

4 could be mistaken maybe, I simply -- my memory fails me.

5 Q. But if you remember that you were brought on the 19th, then we

6 have two different times here, one that Jovo Radocaj was brought on the

7 second day of your detention, and according to a previous statement, it

8 was the third day of your arrival. So it is not difficult to calculate

9 the date if we know the 19th; wouldn't you agree?

10 A. That it was quite possible that he was brought on the very next

11 day or the second day or the third day.

12 Q. You also said that he was brought during Kajin's shift?

13 A. True.

14 Q. And where were you when you watched it?

15 A. Between the Room 3 -- Rooms 3 and 4.

16 Q. And where was -- where were Kajin and Jovo Radocaj?

17 A. In the reception office in Keraterm.

18 Q. Could you please be more specific?

19 A. Facing Rooms 1 and 2.

20 Q. Was it next to the weigh bridge?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you be more specific as to the distance?

23 A. Between the bunker and the weigh bridge.

24 Q. And how far were you from them, roughly?

25 A. 20 to 30 metres.

1 Q. Were there other people between you in that area?

2 A. Not in front of me.

3 Q. Not in front of your eyes or at all?

4 A. Not in front of my eyes.

5 Q. You also said today that Jovo Radocaj was put in your room. By

6 this you mean Room 4?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You also said today that Jovo was called out that same evening?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You mentioned that the voice which called him out was Kajin's

11 voice?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Where were you at that moment?

14 A. By the door.

15 Q. Outside or inside?

16 A. Inside.

17 Q. Were you locked?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you know who unlocked the room? After Jovo left the room, did

20 you see who it was?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And how did you then recognise Kajin's voice, how did you know it

23 was Kajin's voice?

24 A. Well, when somebody talks with somebody in America over the phone,

25 one can recognise it and know who it is, so that is how I knew who it

1 was.

2 Q. Could you clarify this? I really failed to understand you. I

3 asked you how did you know that it was his voice?

4 A. I knew it. Just as we could recognise -- know when Ziga would

5 come to the camp and start yelling and shouting. We would not see him,

6 but we always knew it was Ziga.

7 Q. But a while ago you said that you never talked with Kajin?

8 A. I didn't.

9 Q. You also said that the next day you saw a bloody stain on the

10 wall?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. And that it looked round to you?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. Could you explain where it was in terms of windows, doors?

15 A. The entrance to Room 4 was -- it was about a metre, metre away

16 from the door -- at the height of a metre and a half.

17 Q. And to go back to the previous question, it was only your second

18 day in the camp. How was it that you could already know -- tell Kajin's

19 voice from other voices?

20 A. I don't know whether it was the second or the third day, but the

21 fact that I never talked with Kajin does not mean that I never heard him

22 speak.

23 Q. I pointed out those inconsistencies to you that today you said it

24 from the second day, and in your statement you said it was the third day.

25 Now I will --

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic, I just wanted to ask the witness a

2 question.

3 Witness D, you said the fact that you never talked with Kajin

4 doesn't mean that you never heard him speak. About how many times did you

5 hear him speak prior to this incident in those two or three days?

6 A. The first day in the camp, in the evening, Kajin's shift came on,

7 and then I heard him several times. And I recognised him immediately

8 because I knew his voice from before because we'd come across one another

9 in the town, so that that was enough for me to conclude that that was his

10 voice.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you hear him speak on another occasion apart

12 from that first time?

13 A. You mean the first time in the camp or before the camp?

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, in the camp.

15 A. Well, several times.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: And prior to the incident involving Jovo?

17 A. Yes. Yes.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

19 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Could we now go into private session,

20 please.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.

22 [Private session]

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13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic, how much longer do you have?

15 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Another ten minutes, perhaps, Your

16 Honour, maybe even less.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

18 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Did you see Kajin at the point when Eso and Drago were being

20 carried into the room?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you see anyone near to you when you were carrying them in?

23 A. No.

24 Q. After entering the room, you said that you lost consciousness?

25 A. After a brief period.

1 Q. Can you now tell me when you carried Eso and Drago in the room,

2 were you locked in?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know who did that?

5 A. No.

6 Q. After a brief period you said that Pilip came to the room.

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Who let Pilip in?

9 A. He went and fetched the key.

10 Q. How do you know that he went to get the key?

11 A. When he called me out for the first time, I did not want to

12 respond. Our joint friend was there, and he said -- he told me that I

13 could not get up.

14 Q. My apologies. Did he call you from outside?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And do you know where he went to get the key?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Can you explain to me how Pilip, when he came to the room after

19 having previously called you out from outside, how he knew that you had

20 been beaten when nobody had called you out the previous night?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Did he perhaps explain to you that situation?

23 A. No.

24 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] My apologies. Just a moment.

25 [Defence counsel confer]

1 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Witness D, thank you for your

2 evidence. Your Honours, I have concluded my examination. Thank you.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness D, I'd like to ask you a question.

4 About how many days was it after you heard Kajin beating Jovo that

5 you yourself were beaten and you called out for Kajin too, you said,

6 "Pilip, Kajin, they are killing me."

7 A. I don't know how many days went by, sir.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: But you still -- you had enough confidence in

9 Kajin to have called upon him to help you, notwithstanding what you said

10 you had heard or seen in relation to Kajin beating Jovo?

11 A. Correct.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why was this?

13 A. If we were to talk a bit longer about this, there were Serbs who,

14 on the one side, helped, and on the other side did bad things.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. I will not take it any further.

16 Mr. Vucicevic.

17 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Vucicevic:

19 Q. Witness D, my name is Dusan Vucicevic and I represent Dragan

20 Kolundzija.

21 You have testified in direct that you were put on the paid leave

22 from your enterprise where you were employed. Could you tell us when did

23 it happen; a year, month, or perhaps a week of the month if you know? I

24 won't ask you for a date.

25 A. From the end of 1991 until May or April, but perhaps I even

1 received one salary in coupons the way salaries were distributed in that

2 period.

3 Q. Why were you put on paid leave, and I will sort of make it short,

4 was it because there was no work or any other reason?

5 A. I believe because there was no work.

6 Q. [Previous translation continues]... employed people of all

7 nationalities: Muslims, Serbs, Croats and the others; isn't that true?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. And isn't it true that paid leave was a benefit that was granted

10 to all people in your enterprise regardless of their ethnicity?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. You also testified that you were invited to join reserve police

13 unit in Ljubija. Could you tell the Court the date when that offer was

14 made to you?

15 A. Late April, 1992.

16 Q. In cross-examination that was conducted by Mr. Rodic, you

17 indicated that you took the uniform from the police station in Prijedor on

18 29th of April. I'm using that as a reference point. How many days prior

19 to your putting on a uniform was this offer made?

20 A. Perhaps a week before that.

21 Q. In your direct you testified that the jurisdiction of Ljubija

22 police station was extending as far as Tukovi; isn't that correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 MR. VUCICEVIC: Usher, could you please.

25 Q. Witness D, you already identified this map. Could you please

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1 state what is the distance from Ljubija to Prijedor?

2 A. 11 kilometres.

3 Q. Could you draw in your own hand on this map what was the territory

4 that was covered by or that was the jurisdiction of police station in

5 Ljubija?

6 A. No.

7 Q. So basically the statement that you have given to the Court that

8 jurisdiction of Ljubija when you testified on your direct was misleading,

9 wasn't it?

10 A. Sir, the area that are covered -- that were covered by the Donja

11 Ljubija police station are not shown on this map at all. I can only name

12 them for you.

13 Q. No, sir, that wasn't the question. Thank you.

14 Mr. Usher -- Your Honours, here is the bigger map of the region.

15 I would like the witness to take a look at it. Not presenting it as the

16 evidence at this time, just want him to refresh his recollection.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Mundis?

18 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Your Honour, the Prosecution will object on

19 grounds of relevance. It's our position that many of these areas have

20 already been covered, and it's difficult for us to see a connection to the

21 specific charges for which the accused are on trial here today.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic?

23 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, the witness has testified that he,

24 just shortly before the beginning of the at least political hostilities,

25 so-called power takeover in Prijedor, was solicited to become a policeman

1 in Ljubija. He has manned a certain checkpoints and in manning those

2 checkpoints, he said that the jurisdiction of Ljubija station was all the

3 way to Tukovi, and that he was a member of the police station and he was

4 in a certain areas. I just want to establish how big of the area of what

5 did he have jurisdiction in. That's all. I think it's highly relevant.

6 First, it's relevant as to his recollection --

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 MR. VUCICEVIC: And also it's relevant --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will allow it. Try to deal with it quickly,

10 background material.

11 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, I will.

12 Q. Could you put it on the ELMO, please?

13 A. My apologies. No. In this area, the -- this map, the area

14 covered by the Ljubija police station is not shown.

15 Q. Could you please put the map on ELMO so that we can see Prijedor?

16 Could you move the map higher? A little more higher? And toward the

17 10.00, if you look at the screen clockwise, Ljubija on that map, sir?

18 A. It is but I really cannot see it.

19 Q. Sir, perhaps you will clearer see it on this map. Could you show

20 him this map? Would you move it up a little higher? Move up a little

21 higher and enhance, please. Enhance a little more. Okay. No, no, pull

22 it down. Pull it down. That's proper enhancement. That's it. Just keep

23 it right there.

24 Okay, sir, could you show us where is Ljubija here?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And you see there Carakovo, don't you, on that map?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Can you show us on that map where is part of municipality of

4 Prijedor which is called Tukovi? It is right next to Prijedor. It's not

5 -- it's not shown there, right?

6 A. I don't see it.

7 Q. Perhaps we can then take that one off and put the Prosecutor's map

8 and then, you know, I would kindly show it to the witness because clear

9 indicated, I would show it to the court there are three maps with

10 different localities and the witness is confused, and I understand it's

11 been a long day, but maybe we can start with the first map.

12 You see where Prijedor is indicated in the map, Witness D, and

13 there is clearly written "Tukovi" right there. You see that, don't you?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. Yes. And then in the lower, left-hand corner, there is right

16 there highlighted for you, that says "Ljubija," right down here. It says

17 "Donja Ljubija." And could you pull that map just a little bit higher?

18 And there is another place -- just keep it there. Don't move it any more

19 at all, please. And there is Ljubija. And isn't it correct that police

20 station that you were solicited for is located in Ljubija, right where

21 you're showing right now, isn't it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And isn't it -- you testified already that Ljubija is part of

24 Prijedor municipality. You said that. Isn't it part of opstina?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And town of Prijedor is located and indicated in the biggest

2 letter on that map?

3 A. True.

4 Q. So since you said that territory of that police station of Ljubija

5 cover went all the way to Tukovi, that was incorrect?

6 A. Well, you see, sir, I did not decide how far it would extend but I

7 know not only Tukovi. If you find -- if you locate Tomasica, we shall be

8 able to see further.

9 Q. [Previous translation continues] Thank you. Who was the

10 commanding officer in the -- in the police station, Prijedor 1, at the

11 time that you were offered reserve police duties?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. You testified in your direct that after the elections of December

14 of 1990 were held, there was some dispute among the leaders, between SDA

15 and SDS, about divisional authorities, and perhaps you didn't get a chance

16 to finish. Which position was that dispute all about?

17 A. The question that you want to ask me, who was the chief of police

18 or who was the commander in the police?

19 Q. Who do you -- are you familiar with the name Hasan Talundzic?

20 A. Yes. He was the chief of police.

21 Q. So he was --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, just to say that we are not to

23 take for granted the interpreters. And with their cooperation, we will go

24 on to 4.15. Continue.

25 MR. VUCICEVIC:

1 Q. Was Mr. Talundzic superior to both officers that offered you

2 reserve police position?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you have any conversation -- strike it. You mentioned also --

5 I just want to get who was a commander at what time in Ljubija. You

6 mentioned a Serb and you mentioned a Muslim. Serb was Zekan and I believe

7 Bjekic was a Muslim, if I am correct. Is that right? Or Croatian?

8 A. Not even warm. You are not even getting warm. Baja Bjekic, a

9 Croat, was a police commander and the deputy commander from the reserve

10 force was Komosar, a Serb.

11 Q. [Previous translation continues]... what function or what rank did

12 Mr. Zekan have and Mr. Aliskovic?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. So when they talked to you, they were in uniform, were they?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you testified earlier that you could clearly recognise the

17 ranks on the police officers. So is it your testimony when you talked to

18 them and they offered you position in the police that you didn't notice

19 their ranks?

20 A. What I say is I don't know which ranks they had.

21 Q. [Previous translation continues]... later on what positions did

22 they have?

23 A. No.

24 Q. So who was the one that had authority to accept you in police

25 service? Was that Aziz, was that Zekan, or somebody else?

1 A. The commander of the station.

2 Q. That was Mr. Bjekic?

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. And how did that appointment take place? Did he check your

5 background? Did you have to fill out a questionnaire, or you just had a

6 conversation with him?

7 A. There was an interview.

8 Q. And after that conversation, did he send you to Prijedor to

9 take --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- your rifle and uniform.

12 A. I was issued with a rifle in the station at Ljubija.

13 Q. So you went to Prijedor immediately after you finished

14 conversation with him, isn't that true?

15 A. It is.

16 Q. So the fact is that you became reserve policeman on 29th of April

17 1992?

18 A. More or less, yes.

19 Q. [Previous translation continues]... was to be dispatched at a

20 checkpoint. That's what you already testified.

21 A. Yes, yes, my first duty.

22 Q. After you came back from Prijedor, you reported to Mr. Bjekic and

23 he sent you to the checkpoint; right?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Could you just tell us how long -- what is the time span between

1 you getting the uniform and receiving your first assignment?

2 A. A couple of days. Let me repeat --

3 Q. [Previous translation continues]... to finish this. --

4 A. Several days.

5 Q. Did -- so that means that Serb power takeover in Prijedor already

6 took place; is that correct?

7 A. Before I went to -- on duty for the first time.

8 Q. What did you do being a reserve policeman in those first few days,

9 if anything?

10 A. It's a good question. We sat at the checkpoint and did nothing.

11 Q. So that was a point by the gas station, is that so? Because you

12 testified that your first post -- on the checkpoint at the gas station?

13 A. No. The railway station next to the bus terminal.

14 Q. Okay. So this is the first time that we hear about this

15 checkpoint by the bus station or by the railroad station; isn't that

16 true? We haven't heard it in the direct or any cross-examination that you

17 answered to so far.

18 A. I don't remember if I mentioned the petrol pump ever or this

19 checkpoint.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic --

21 MR. VUCICEVIC: I have a lot more, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes. We can't go beyond 4.15.

23 Mr. Mundis, the Chamber was aware of some difficulties the witness

24 had. What is your position? Will the witness be available tomorrow or

25 will some arrangement have to be made for him to come another day?

1 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, at the moment, I'm not in a position to

2 answer that question. I can certainly make some inquiries and perhaps get

3 back to both Defence counsel and to the Chamber's legal officer. The

4 question involves the witness' employer.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

6 Well, Witness D, would you like to say something in relation to

7 that?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I shall be happy to stay

9 tomorrow.

10 MR. MUNDIS: That answers that.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: That answers the question. We'll take the

12 adjournment now.

13 Witness D, you are not to discuss your evidence with anybody and

14 that includes members of the Prosecution team. We will resume at 9.30

15 tomorrow morning.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.15 p.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 28th day of

18 March, 2001 at 9.30 a.m.

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