1 Wednesday, 16 May 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, my notes indicate that you had

7 finished your examination-in-chief.

8 MR. RYNEVELD: Actually, Your Honour, I hadn't finished my

9 examination-in-chief. I had finished paragraph 5 and was about to start

10 paragraph 6 on an issue that was of most relevance to my learned friend

11 who required time to prepare. So we adjourned before I was finished.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. I'm grateful for the correction. So you

13 will then continue with your examination-in-chief.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: That's my proposal, yes. Thank you.

15 WITNESS: WITNESS N [Resumed]

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

18 Q. Now, Witness N, you will recall that last day when you were

19 testifying, you had told us about the background of the incidents leading

20 to your being captured and taken to Keraterm. Do you remember telling us

21 about that?

22 A. I do.

23 Q. And you also told us about certain matters that happened while you

24 were detained in Room 3 at Keraterm.

25 A. That's right.

1 Q. And you told us about the names of certain individuals who were

2 beaten. Do you remember talking about that last day?

3 A. I do.

4 Q. Well, I would like you now, if you would, please, to turn your

5 mind to an occasion which I understand was two or three days after you

6 arrived at the camp. Do you remember on one occasion lying on your belly

7 on the ground outside of Room 3?

8 A. I do. It was on the 23rd of July. They took us out around --

9 well, I wouldn't know the exact time, but it was perhaps around 10.00 or

10 9.00 -- 8.00, 9.00, or 10.00 in the morning. They took us out and told us

11 to lie down on the grass in front of Room 3. And we were lying on our

12 bellies until about 3.00 or 4.00. Again, I cannot give you the exact time

13 because we had no watches. And throughout, we had to lie on our bellies

14 without moving, without turning or anything.

15 Then Damir Dosen, it could have been around 20 metres away from

16 us, he placed a chair there and sat on it with a rifle and said, "The one

17 who moves will never stand up again." And we were lying down like that

18 for three or four hours, until Kolundzija arrived with his group. I don't

19 know where they had been. And they started walking among us, between us,

20 and beating us, moving from one to the other. And when they felt like it,

21 they would beat one of us.

22 As this went on, I received four blows with a police baton and

23 with some wooden stake -- whether it was from the pallet or something, I

24 don't know -- on the back, and once I was hit with a rifle butt on the

25 back. That is what I went through. Others, well, it depends. Some more;

1 some less.

2 Then Banovic was also there, Cupo Banovic. He stopped by Fazlic,

3 and one could hear the man cry out or moan or something, and he said, "If

4 you don't kick the bucket by the time I get back, you'll get another

5 one." And Kolundzija then told him, "If you do it once again, you'll fall

6 out." Now, what he meant by this, I don't know. And Kolundzija walked up

7 and down. He didn't beat. At least, I didn't see him strike anyone.

8 Later on, when they were about to leave, when I suppose he told

9 them that that was enough, when they were about to leave, a truck, a large

10 truck, I believe it was an army truck for communications, and they just

11 drove over the legs of Husein Fikic, and I think all his muscles broke.

12 And we were then told to get onto it, and Fazlic remained lying down in a

13 pool of blood. I suppose he was dead, because he showed no signs of

14 life. His two sons were there too.

15 Q. I'm going to stop you there because you've covered quite a bit of

16 ground in this last question. You said that someone you referred to as

17 Damir Dosen was sitting in a chair, and then you said later on, or words

18 to the effect that later on, "Kolundzija and his group arrived." Is that

19 what you told us?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. How long after you were told to lie on your bellies did Kolundzija

22 and his group arrive?

23 A. Well, I said we had no watches, but I believe it was after three

24 or four hours. I cannot really tell you exactly, it looked like eternity

25 to us because we were not allowed to budge, and with our faces down on the

1 grass hurt, but we dared not move because God knows what might happen if

2 you moved or raised your head. Perhaps you'd never be able to do that

3 again.

4 Q. All right. Now, when you say, "Kolundzija and his group," do you

5 know any of the people that you are referring to as Kolundzija's group?

6 Who are you specifically referring to, if you know any names?

7 A. Well, I don't know all of those names. There wasn't all that much

8 time to remember those names, but when they came and left and mixed and

9 all those guards -- what do I know? Well, it wasn't all that difficult to

10 recognise who is with whom, but it was difficult for us because it was a

11 matter of survival for us. It was whether we'd keep our heads. So we did

12 not really care who would come and who would leave and which shift would

13 be on duty.

14 But there were brothers Banovic, Nenad and Predrag. There was

15 Fustar, but he had his own shift. And there was Kondic, Dragan; Janjic,

16 Nikica Janjic. And let me see. Well, I'm telling you we knew some

17 because we used to play football together at the time when it was still

18 quiet but we knew mostly their nicknames. So there was Lazo, who worked

19 at the petrol station, Energopetrol petrol station. There was one called

20 Svrca, he came from Kozarusa. And there was also another one, Timarac.

21 I'm telling you, it was difficult for us to remember all those

22 names because there was really no time to think about who's who and what.

23 What mattered to us was how to survive since what was going on there, you

24 know, it didn't really matter.

25 Q. Just so that I'm clear, sir, these names that you've just told us

1 about, were they the people who were present at the time when you were

2 lying on your bellies or are these people that are normally at the camp?

3 In other words, did you -- the names that you've just told us about, were

4 those the people that you believe were there at the time you and your

5 fellow prisoners were lying on your bellies and being beaten?

6 A. No. No. No. That's not what I meant. I'm telling you it was

7 the majority of guards, but who was on which shift, that was difficult for

8 us to say because when we arrived, to tell you honestly, there were some

9 shifts which would all come together and there would be those shifts. But

10 when there was beating, it was really difficult to really remember who was

11 with which group or, rather, who was with which shift. But we knew them

12 from around there.

13 Q. Let me ask another question for clarification. You told us that

14 Damir Dosen was sitting in a chair, and I take it he was watching the

15 prisoners while they were lying on their bellies; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was he still sitting in that chair or was he still present when,

18 as you say, Kolundzija and his group arrived and the incidents you've told

19 us about started? Was he still there, or had he left, or do you know?

20 A. What I can say is that I did not pay attention when he arrived or

21 whether he was sitting there all the time or whether he left because it

22 was difficult to look behind you to see if somebody is sitting in a chair

23 or whatever. The important thing was not to move, not to make any

24 conspicuous gestures so as not to provoke them because we knew that they

25 meant business when they said it, and so we did not simply look around or

1 turn around.

2 I cannot tell you if he was still sitting there or not. But no,

3 he couldn't really, because it was just too hot. He couldn't sit there

4 all that time.

5 Q. Now, you've told us about an incident involving Mr. Banovic in

6 relation to Mr. Fazlic. Do you remember telling us about that moments

7 ago?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And then I believe you said something to the effect of that

10 Kolundzija said something to someone. I just want to clarify, who was

11 Kolundzija addressing when he said what you told us he said?

12 A. Banovic, of course, Banovic. He turned and when he saw that that

13 man -- well, I suppose -- I'm telling you I did not see him step in with a

14 knife or something, but it must have been that, since he said, "Well, if

15 you don't kick the bucket by the time I get back, you'll get another

16 one." And it was then that he turned and told him that if he did that

17 again, he'd fall out. Now, what he'd fall out from, I don't know.

18 Q. Just so I'm clear, when you say "he told him," are you saying

19 Kolundzija told Banovic, "If you do that again..."? Is that what you're

20 telling us?

21 A. That's right, yes.

22 Q. Now, when you say Kolundzija and his group came, how long had you

23 known Mr. Kolundzija? You arrived at the camp three days before; is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And did you know Mr. Kolundzija before the war?

2 A. No, never saw him before the war.

3 Q. How did you learn Mr. Kolundzija's identity? How did you learn

4 who the individual was by name?

5 A. From camp inmates who were there before us, because there was time

6 to talk with them. Well, we could not socialise properly or something,

7 but there was enough time for them to tell us which was which shift, who

8 was on them, who we should be -- fear most when we were there. They told

9 us who were guard commanders and who was the camp warden.

10 Q. Do I understand correctly, sir, that you were an inmate at that

11 camp until it was closed in early August of 1992?

12 A. Yes. I was there until the 5th of August, 1992.

13 Q. All right. Now, after this incident that you told us about, about

14 Kolundzija and his group coming to the grass area in front of Room 3, did

15 you see the individual that you refer to as Kolundzija after that

16 incident? In other words, did you see him on later dates as well in the

17 camp? Between the 23rd of June and the 5th of August, did you see

18 Kolundzija?

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 Q. And the person you saw and knew to be Kolundzija on those

21 subsequent dates, was that the same person that you're referring to who

22 was speaking to Banovic when he did what he did to Mr. Fazlic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I'll get back to that in a moment, sir. Now, after that

25 particular incident and after this truck left and Mr. Husein's legs were

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1 run over, later that night, did you see Cupo Banovic again?

2 A. That same night.

3 Q. What happened? Yes?

4 A. You're asking me about that same night?

5 Q. I am, yes.

6 A. We were put back, I mean put -- we were told to get back to Room

7 number 3 that day. And then in the evening -- normally they closed the

8 door. We didn't get any food or anything. And then Cupo came in the

9 evening in a helmet and told the one who was - what do you call him? - who

10 was responsible for the dormitory. There was one amongst us. Dizdarevic,

11 I believe. And he told him, "Well, you got five minutes to fill this

12 helmet with valuables, and if you fail to do that, then you and five other

13 men will come out." That was in the evening.

14 And there were also callouts and people were being taken out at

15 night and beaten.

16 Q. All right. I'm going to ask you about the helmet, sir. Was the

17 helmet filled with valuables? Did the prisoners have any valuables to

18 fill the helmet with?

19 A. Well, how could we have any? They'd already taken it all away

20 from us. I think we'd been searched at least a million times --

21 Q. And what was the --

22 A. -- asking for everything.

23 Q. And what, if anything, was the consequence of not filling the

24 helmet? What happened?

25 A. They took out people at night, and that was -- it was the worst.

1 The worst time was the night-time, because then it was the struggle to

2 survive, because if you were taken out, then it was a 70 per cent

3 probability that you would not come back, because I've also learnt what

4 those beatings were like and what it looked like when they took you out.

5 Q. All right, sir. I'm going to ask you now to turn to another

6 topic. Do you remember that shortly after this incident, a day or two

7 later, there was an incident that we refer to as a Room 3 massacre? Do

8 you remember that incident? You were an inmate of that room when

9 something terrible happened, were you not? Nodding your head for the

10 record, meaning yes.

11 A. Yes, yes. I was there in that room. It was a Friday, the 24th,

12 and --

13 Q. Tell us what happened.

14 A. Well, as they took people out routinely in the morning, they would

15 open the door to air the room a little or for some reason, because in the

16 room there was a barrel which we had to use to relieve ourselves because

17 they did not allow us to go to the lavatory, even though it was right next

18 door to us. And in the morning, they would usually open the door around

19 7.00 or around that time. That was roughly when they opened the door.

20 For two or three days that is what happened, but that day they did not

21 open the door.

22 And it was strange, so we wondered why they wouldn't open the door

23 and, well, in the morning it was quite all right, it wasn't all that hot,

24 but then throughout that day, the door remained closed well into the

25 night, no food, no water, and it went on like that until about 3.00 in the

1 afternoon when slowly we began to run out of air. Some people were

2 saying, "Let's not talk too much. Let's not move too much," presumably to

3 save what little air came from the windows up there that were still open

4 at that time.

5 And we somehow managed to control the air, if I may put it that

6 way, that is, not to move around too much, not to talk too much, to try to

7 breathe normally. But at some point, we really were short of air and we

8 then slowly began to move. We began to fidget. Outside, something out of

9 the ordinary was also beginning to happen, that is, there must have been

10 some major movement outside or something, I can't tell you. But there was

11 something that was out of the ordinary.

12 And then around, perhaps -- I'm telling you I didn't have a watch

13 but it could have been around perhaps 5.00 or 6.00 in the afternoon,

14 the -- it became rather critical as regards air in the room. There were

15 people who were -- who were, perhaps, slightly more -- slightly fatter who

16 needed more air. It was very hot inside and let me tell you, it must have

17 been 33, 34 degrees outside in Bosnia at the time. Now, you can well

18 imagine the dormitory with all the men inside and what the temperature

19 could be. I mean, we were radiating heat. I mean, it looked as if you

20 were pouring water all over you all that time.

21 And then we started to call out to the guards outside to open the

22 door for us because it was becoming intolerable. We could barely bear

23 it. I stood some two or three metres away from the door, that is, and

24 facing the door and we tried to breathe very slowly the air that came

25 under the door.

1 At the time, there was still a couple of pallets inside, wooden

2 ones, and one would put their nose through that pallet because it was

3 separated for a couple of centimetres, and again tried to breathe in the

4 air that came from under the door. The door was about -- there was a gap

5 of about 5 or maybe not more than 10 centimetres between the floor and the

6 door, and that is how one managed to get some air but that was really very

7 little.

8 And then when we called out to them to open the door, they cursed

9 at us. They abused verbally our mothers, told us to shut up, and then

10 they closed the remaining three windows.

11 Q. Stop there, if you would. How many men would you say were in the

12 room at the time that you are now describing? Are you able to give us an

13 estimate?

14 A. I cannot give you the exact number. I did not count them.

15 Between 250 and 350. As I say, I cannot give you the exact number. I

16 know that the range of 100 is a range, but I cannot give you the exact

17 number.

18 Q. Sir --

19 A. 250 to 350.

20 Q. Sir, since you were an inmate in Room 3, are you able to give us

21 the approximate dimensions of that room or perhaps relate the size of that

22 room to the size of the courtroom we are now in? Was it bigger than this

23 courtroom, smaller than this courtroom, about the same size, or do you

24 have any means of giving us an approximate size of the room?

25 A. We would have called this size room a hotel. This was much

1 smaller. It was L-shaped. There was a little area as you enter to the

2 left which was about 1.5 metres wide and 2 or 3 metres in depth or perhaps

3 2 metres wide. As I said, it was L-shaped. If I compared it to this

4 room, perhaps from the flag over there, from the UN flag and over.

5 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

6 A. Yes, and over to the end. As -- perhaps 80 square metres.

7 Q. And just for the record, are you indicating a distance of about a

8 third of the size of this courtroom as we're looking at it, or that's a

9 figure I'm ...

10 A. I think approximately like that. Plus the little area that I

11 described which made the room L-shaped.

12 Q. All right. All right, sir. I stopped you at a point in time

13 where you said that you were asking permission for the windows -- for the

14 doors to be open, as a consequence of which the three remaining windows

15 were also shut; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, that is correct.

17 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

18 A. Then it became a struggle to survive because we started choking in

19 there, especially the older among us. I don't know if we had any

20 asthmatic patients or -- and the people who were a bit overweight were in

21 a very bad situation and also people started becoming afraid that they

22 would choke.

23 At one point, as I said, I was about two, three metres away from

24 the door, near the door, and at one point, I saw something like -- I saw

25 like a lightening under the door, and something like some kind of a smoke

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1 started coming in. I cannot describe this to you in words. I don't know,

2 for those who have not experienced something like that. Movie making is

3 one thing, but this was something else. People started tearing off their

4 clothes from them, shirts. I cannot describe the situation.

5 We were fighting for our lives. It was either to choke or try to

6 do something. Meanwhile, from outside, they were yelling at us to keep

7 silent, and it was very hard to keep silent when you were losing air. The

8 air was already foul from that barrel which we kept inside, and I don't

9 know what it was. I think it was like teargas grenade. I know that smoke

10 started spreading around the room so we started moving aside, and then the

11 shooting started from outside. They started shooting from outside.

12 I don't know how long this lasted. I know that several people

13 ahead of me, four, five, or six, fell down. They were cut by bullets. I

14 managed to get down, and three or four men fell over me, over my back,

15 halfway over my back. They were dead.

16 So I was there. Misfortune was my luck, because these bullets --

17 they were absorbing these bullets that were being fired from outside.

18 They were bouncing from the bullets that were hitting them. It was

19 horrible. It was like being in hell, a night in hell.

20 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

21 A. Yes, I was under them. These bodies were on top of them. I

22 couldn't move. I could only move my head a little. And then --

23 Q. Did you remain conscious throughout or was there a period of time

24 when you lost consciousness?

25 A. I was not conscious throughout. I lost consciousness. But again,

1 as I said, through -- under that pallet I still tried to breathe in. The

2 effect of that smoke from that grenade that they had thrown in, it did not

3 last forever. I reached down under the pallet and tried to breathe in

4 air. You had nowhere to hide.

5 The little alcove that we had - as I said, that room was

6 L-shaped - some people went over there to try to hide there, but some were

7 hit even there because bullets were coming from all sides. They were

8 ricocheting. And then there was a wall, a wall where the windows were.

9 Those people who were -- who took shelter, who took cover against the

10 wall, they were hit too. I think that they were hit by ricocheting

11 bullets.

12 But before the shooting started, Kasim Fazlic -- this I remember

13 as if it was today. He was an overweight person. He was 100, 110

14 kilograms. He could not take it any more, so he ran, and he ran through

15 the door. He just could not take it any more. So he broke through the

16 door. And that helped us, too, because we had influx of fresh air

17 suddenly. And when they started shooting, the windows were broken too.

18 I don't know how long this lasted. I cannot tell you that.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'd like to find out, how did the bullets enter

22 the room? The windows were closed.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. That was about to be the next area of

24 examination, but, yes.

25 Q. You understand His Honour's question, Witness? His Honour wants

1 to know if the doors and windows were closed, how was it that the bullets

2 entered the room? Can you tell us about that?

3 A. Windows were made of glass and the door was made of metal, tin. I

4 don't know, maybe it was -- it was less than one centimetre thick, that

5 tin.

6 Q. How about the walls, the walls themselves of the front of Room 3?

7 Was it all a door, was it all a tin door, or was there some other material

8 beside the door that created the front of Room 3? Do you understand my

9 question?

10 A. The door was in the corner, perhaps 30 centimetres -- there was a

11 piece of wall 30 centimetres, and then in that corner there was a door and

12 up at the top were the windows. The windows were perhaps 2 metres high,

13 around. That's where the windows were. Again, made of glass. They were

14 not tin. They were glass windows, and the door was tin.

15 So the bullets that came, maybe they would hit the ceiling and

16 then ricochet, but the bullets were entering through the door and through

17 the windows.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Might the usher show what has been entered in these

19 proceedings as Exhibit 2 and show the witness photograph 2B of that

20 exhibit. Do you have that, Madam Clerk?

21 Q. Witness, the usher is about to show you a photograph of a

22 building, first of all.

23 JUDGE MAY: We can see it more clearly probably on 2C.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: Well, perhaps. It's just that the guard hut might

25 be in the way somewhat. So, yes, I was -- I didn't expect the -- I wanted

1 the whole booklet to go to the witness. But thank you, Your Honour.

2 Perhaps, Mr. Usher, could you also have the remaining Exhibit 2

3 available. Thank you.

4 Q. First of all, sir, do you recognise the photograph that you are

5 now looking at which has been marked in these proceedings as Exhibit 2B?

6 Is that the Keraterm camp to which you've been making reference? You're

7 nodding your head.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. This photograph, it appears, was taken in 1996. You were there in

10 1992. Does it look the same or have some alterations been made, to your

11 recollection, from what is in the photograph to what you saw on the date

12 in question?

13 A. This is what I can tell you: What -- what we had was Rooms 1 and

14 2. These are the first rooms. And then there was a storage room. This

15 is where the lady who would handle the food would come. And then there

16 was a toilet.

17 Q. Now, do you see the area where there is white on the bottom of the

18 building after the building has a --

19 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry for interrupting.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld. Mr. Greaves.

21 MR. GREAVES: The witness --

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't even notice.

23 MR. GREAVES: That's all right. The witness was pointing to the

24 monitor rather than to the thing on the ELMO. This is not unimportant

25 evidence. Could he perhaps just point and go over the evidence he's just

1 given by pointing to the ELMO so that we can identify what he's pointing

2 at, please.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Mr. Greaves.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, the witness should point to the ELMO.

5 MR. RYNEVELD:

6 Q. Sir, could you point to the photograph and that will then be

7 reflected on the screen. Would you repeat what you said about Rooms 1 and

8 2 and then the storage room and the toilet, please. You're pointing now

9 to what?

10 A. This was Room 1 and 2 here. One next to another, and there was a

11 door here. And then there was the storage room.

12 Q. You are pointing to a door right in the corner where there seems

13 to be a -- an annex or something that abuts out from the building. Yes,

14 at the joint of the lean-to or whatever we call that, an annex, yes. And

15 then do you see the area to the right of that that appears to have a white

16 bottom with windows in the top? What, if anything, is that?

17 A. That was Room 3 and then Room 4. The doors were not one next to

18 another and -- but before Room 3, there was a toilet there.

19 Q. All right. And how does the construction as it appears on the

20 photographs before the Court today, i.e., how does that compare with the

21 way it looked in July of 1992? Was it different or was it similar?

22 A. Well, yes, we did find the walls white. I cannot tell you whether

23 this has been painted or not.

24 Q. I'm talking about the construction material. You may not be able

25 to tell from this photograph, but to go back to His Honour's question, how

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1 did the bullets enter the room? Did they penetrate the glass, or did they

2 penetrate that white portion, or where did the bullets come in; or both

3 areas or not at all?

4 A. Bullets were entering through the windows and through this tin

5 door, but I cannot quite make out the door, whether that is a tin door or

6 what.

7 Q. Perhaps, as His Honour Judge May suggested, you could look at

8 photograph 2C. It seems to be a somewhat closer-up view of a portion but

9 there is a hut, a weigh scale in the front. Do you see that photograph,

10 sir?

11 First of all, for the record, do you recognise the scene depicted

12 in that photograph as being Keraterm camp?

13 A. Yes. This is where we entered. And here, near this weigh hut, we

14 were searched, and our documents were taken away from us there.

15 Q. Yes. Now, from that photograph, is the door to Room 3 visible or

16 not or do you know? Are you able to tell?

17 A. Yes, the hut covers it. The hut is covering this area.

18 Q. All right. Now, did the bullets come through the walls of the

19 room as well as the doors and the glass, or are you able to tell us?

20 A. Through the door and through the glass. I don't know about the

21 wall. It would have been difficult for it to get through the wall. I

22 don't know if any bullets came through the wall, but I doubt it.

23 Q. The next morning, sir, or when you regained consciousness, what,

24 if anything, happened then?

25 Thank you, Mr. Usher.

1 A. The next morning when I regained consciousness, there were more

2 people -- there were more people lying around dead than there were

3 survivors. People were lying on top of one another. You could not

4 recognise persons whom you used to know until you looked at them very

5 closely. They were black. They were bloated. They were shot through.

6 Those who were -- who had been -- were wounded were missing fingers.

7 There was this case, his name was Emsud Fazlic, he had been hit

8 12, 13 times. In the morning he was still alive. He was near the door

9 and he was still alive. He was looking at us and people asked him, "What

10 happened to you?" He said, "I have been hit." And then we were ordered

11 to take these dead men out, and Samo Ramulic and Rasim Hamulic called

12 Roki. They were both medical staff. I didn't know whether they were

13 doctors, but they had worked in the hospital.

14 And also in the morning, you had people dying. Emir Haliskovic

15 died in the arms of his brother. He survived for about a half hour and

16 his brother was crying. He asked Ramulic and Hamulic to help him and they

17 told him, "We can't do anything for him. We have nothing here." So this

18 young man, he must have been 18, 19, he died in the morning.

19 Q. If I can stop you there, I understand the carnage must have been

20 terrible and I'm sure you can give us a lot of detail about the suffering

21 that you personally witnessed. And I don't mean to underemphasise by

22 skipping over this part but, sir, as a consequence of that, and since you

23 were there, do you know how many people died in that room that night as a

24 result of what happened?

25 A. Inside the room, there were 98 dead and 27 wounded. 27 wounded, I

1 know that number, because Ramulic wrote down the names of all the wounded

2 because he had been ordered to do so. Then Sejfo Avdic was called to come

3 out and identify the bodies outside, to say who it was who was killed.

4 But we were not allowed to open the door to take out the bodies,

5 but through that hole that Kasim Fazlic had made when he broke through the

6 door with his head, they twisted that tin open. Apparently they didn't

7 want to allow us to see how many people were lying outside. So through

8 this opening, we were pushing bodies through, and as we were pushing them

9 through, we were counting them. As I said, 98 were dead inside and 27

10 were wounded.

11 Q. What happened to those bodies, do you know? Were they taken

12 away? Are you aware of that or ...

13 A. The bodies were placed in front of the room and then a truck

14 arrived, a trailer, and these bodies were loaded onto that truck.

15 Eventually the -- those wounded -- this is just what I was going to tell,

16 the wounded also boarded that truck, six, maybe more. I know that Sejfo

17 Avdic, Ramo Crljenkovic, the Duratovic brothers, Dzafer Fazlic was there.

18 So these survivors who had not been wounded, though they were not

19 hurt at all, those six survivors also boarded the truck with them. And

20 then this truck went. I don't know where it went.

21 Q. Do you know whether any of these wounded people or the people who

22 were asked to load the bodies onto the truck and then were told to get on

23 the truck, were they ever seen again, do you know?

24 A. I never saw them.

25 Q. Now, later that day, now, when I'm talking about that day, we are

1 now speaking about the morning after the massacre that happened

2 overnight. So you are in the morning, the bodies have been loaded. Now,

3 later that day, did something happen to the prisoners or to some of the

4 prisoners?

5 A. Yes. First when the truck left, when -- after they had taken the

6 dead and the wounded, we were first ordered to come out. The grass was

7 wet, it was -- it probably had been hosed so it was wet. And they

8 immediately told us to lie down but not -- face down, but not to look at

9 the room. Then inmates from other rooms came to wash the room.

10 Everything that -- all the clothing and everything else that was there was

11 bloodied was taken to a heap outside. So all this was thrown out and the

12 room was washed down.

13 We spent that day lying there, and again we were being beaten. We

14 were getting hit over our backs. And Sead Zeric was beaten, Besad Behlic

15 also was there. He was unfit for military service. And while they were

16 beating him, he was saying -- he said, "I was unfit," but they kept

17 beating him. For some reason, it was important that his name was Behlic.

18 I don't know what that meant.

19 Q. Do you know who was doing the beating of these prisoners while you

20 were outside Room 3 after the massacre? Was it -- do you know whether it

21 was soldiers or whether it was guards or whether it was visitors to the

22 camp or whether it was other inmates? Can you tell us who was doing

23 that?

24 A. These were the guards, those soldiers who were there.

25 Q. Do you make a distinction between soldiers and guards or are you

1 referring to them all by one term?

2 A. How shall I put it? They were all dressed the same. These were

3 guards, that they guarded us. I don't know what they were guarding us

4 from. Only they know that --

5 Q. Yes. Well --

6 A. -- and why they had brought us there to begin with.

7 Q. Perhaps I should focus my question. These people who were doing

8 the beatings, were they the people who were usually at the camp doing

9 guard duty during your stay or were they outside people in uniform, like

10 soldiers, like strangers?

11 A. As far as I can remember, Zigic was the only one who came from

12 outside. All the others were from there. They were all guards.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, I'd like you to turn your mind to later the

14 following evening. You've told us that prisoners had been beaten during

15 the day.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I understand that an individual by the name of Halid Aliskovic --

18 [redacted].

19 Tell us, sir, do you remember something happening to him and others?

20 A. Yes. If you really want to know who is Halid Aliskovic --

21 Q. Well, sir, I'm trying to avoid your identification. So let's just

22 refer to this individual by name, please. Just tell us his name, but no

23 other details about him.

24 A. Yeah, right. The second night, again after dark - it was

25 night-time - they called out 15 people, and -- two times six men and one

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1 Ismet Duratovic. That Ismet Duratovic was a man who had no clothes on.

2 He was completely naked. But the man had become unhinged. It must have

3 been the fact of that night and the fear, the horror of it, physically,

4 mentally. But the man was simply -- simply lost his reason. We were all

5 afraid.

6 If there had been another night like that one, I don't know. And

7 I tell you, I'd rather get the bullet or something, because to go through

8 that night, I don't know if I'd be able to survive another night like

9 that. I'd rather have a bullet in the head, because those efforts to

10 survive -- and the second night again, you don't know whether they'll take

11 you out or what.

12 Q. I can appreciate that, sir. I understand it must have been just a

13 horrific experience that none of us can possibly imagine, but we need you

14 to tell us what actually happened the following day at this point. I can

15 appreciate it, and I don't mean to undervalue the horrors of what

16 happened, but can you please focus now on facts of what happened after

17 that incident?

18 A. Well, I just told you. They took out 15 men. And then we carried

19 out -- we carried out those who had been beaten up. They were also

20 carried out. And as far as I can remember, they took out two times six

21 men, that is, six men on two occasions, and that Ismet Duratovic, that man

22 who I just described, they also took him out.

23 Q. Yes. And what did they do to them when they took them out?

24 A. Well, did they slay them all right there? I don't know. I heard

25 several shots. And I heard those several shots, and then I retreated to

1 this shielded area because I was afraid it would be my turn next. So one

2 looked for a mousehole to hide. And in all that -- with all that terror,

3 in that slightly shielded area, separated area, I wasn't really myself all

4 that night. Whether they took out some other people or not -- but those

5 15 people taken out on two occasions, in one of those groups Halid

6 Aliskovic was too.

7 Q. And did you see any of those prisoners, including Halid Aliskovic,

8 ever again?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Who ordered those people out? Do you know?

11 A. It was Kolundzija. He said to Ismet Duratovic, "Why you're

12 running around naked?" And he answered, "I've been hypnotised." "Who

13 hypnotised you?" and he pointed at those men. "Get those people out."

14 And that is how he got out -- those 15 men out and he was the 16th. So

15 two times six men.

16 And I heard two shots first. Now, whether it was that Duratovic

17 or somebody, I don't know. And then several more shots, but I did not see

18 it. I'm telling you, I just retreated to that niche and I could not see

19 if they had killed all those men.

20 Q. I'm going to move on to a subsequent incident, sir. I'm going to

21 take you to an incident about three days before the camp closed, and did

22 something happen to you personally?

23 A. Well, what happened is what I least wanted to happen, to be called

24 out in the evening and to be taken out, because when they took you out, I

25 saw people come back after that. So that that evening came. Before me,

1 they had beat people and so on. Then they called me and Dervis Aliskovic

2 out.

3 Q. And when you were called out, what happened to you, if anything?

4 A. Well, they told us to stand a metre away from the door, and that

5 was the routine. You stand a metre away from the door, the door is open,

6 and they took you into the night. I could see the cigarettes, you know,

7 the light that cigarettes make.

8 And took me away and half of the guards approached me and half of

9 the guards went after Dervis Aliskovic. Now, whether it was half/half, I

10 don't know. It could have been one or two more or less.

11 Q. And what did they do, if anything? What happened to you after

12 they took you?

13 A. Well, they took me and then it started. A guard came up to me and

14 asked, "Where's your bomb?" I said, "I have no bombs." "Where is your

15 rifle?" Because they were looking for a reason to start. And I barely

16 managed to say, "I don't have one." One of them hit me in the stomach so

17 that I bent, and then those others then came, pounced upon me. And what

18 the beating started, it beggars description, because you don't know how to

19 defend yourself. You try to shield your head, they'll get at your stomach

20 or -- and a guard had climbed up -- had climbed up to a window and from

21 there, and that was a rather -- the window was rather high up, and from

22 there, he just jumped down on my back. And I shouted and screamed and

23 sobbed and wept. Not cried. I was screaming. I don't know. I don't

24 know how to describe it. The pain was unbearable. And if you kept

25 silent, then they would say, "Look at him. Look at him. Fuck him. This

1 man can really bear a lot." And if you cry out, they say, "Why are you

2 crying? Fuck you. You'll wake up all the others." And I couldn't see

3 really anyone really sleeping there.

4 Q. While you were being beaten, did someone approach during the

5 course of the beating and say something to you along the lines you've just

6 said?

7 A. Yes, crossing the grass area, Kolundzija. He came across the

8 grass and said, "Why are you screaming? Fuck you. You are waking

9 everybody up." And they went on beating for some time. For how long, I

10 don't know. I know that I fainted and came back to. And it was still

11 going on, then would again out.

12 And it went on like that until they hit me here in the neck, my

13 Adam's apple, and when that guard hit me there in the Adam's apple, I

14 started to gasp for breath. I couldn't breathe, and it was then that they

15 stopped and ordered me to go back to the dormitory.

16 How long it lasted, I couldn't tell you. They ordered me to go

17 back to the dormitory but I passed out in front of the dormitory, and when

18 I came back to, I felt that here on the forehead, there was something.

19 And when I opened my eyes, I saw that guard with his rifle at my forehead

20 asking me, "Will you lie here or are you going back inside?"

21 And Aliskovic, Dervis Aliskovic was leaning against a barrel in

22 front of the door. I somehow managed to get in, and the inmates who were

23 already inside pulled me in and tried to put some compresses, some

24 T-shirts to help me. I mean, we had no water.

25 Q. I understand that. Sir, I'm now going to ask you, you've told us

1 in your evidence today of at least three incidents that I can recall where

2 you referred to an individual by the name of Kolundzija. You told us

3 about the incident while you were lying on your belly. You told us an

4 incident a few moments ago about this individual ordering prisoners out,

5 and then you've told us that this individual, again, approached you while

6 you were being beaten and said -- asked you as to why you were shouting,

7 that you would wake people up.

8 I asked you earlier how you knew this individual and you've told

9 us that. Could you describe this individual to us from your recollection

10 of what he looked like in 1992? Can you describe this man for us?

11 A. Well, I can tell you in 1992, the man looked -- how shall I put

12 it? Well, I can tell you. He was good looking. I mean, I have to pay a

13 compliment to him. What can I do? Rather light hair. He was medium to

14 tall, more than medium. And he looked like, well, a man with -- a man who

15 was losing some hair -- well, some. And, well --

16 Q. Was he big, fat, short, or skinny or aged, or what can you tell

17 us?

18 A. No, not fat. No. No. No. Not fat. Age? Well, he wasn't fat.

19 So he wasn't thin either. Age, at that time, between 23 to 27, 28.

20 Somewhere between 23, 28 -- well ...

21 Q. How often during the period of time that you were at Keraterm

22 would you say you had opportunity to see this individual who you refer to

23 as Kolundzija? If you were to total up all the times during the time that

24 you were there that you had a chance to see him, can you give the Court an

25 estimate of how often that would be?

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1 A. How many? Well, I'm telling you between the 20th of July until

2 the 5th of August, well, after those butcheries, not as often, not as

3 often as that. Well, no, I did not see him often after those massacres.

4 Whether he came, whether he was there, but before the massacres, some

5 three or four times, perhaps, or thereabouts.

6 Q. Did you know what position, if any, this individual that you refer

7 to as Kolundzija had in the camp?

8 A. Not in the early days until we started talking with other inmates

9 and then we learned that he was the commander of a guard shift.

10 Q. All right. Sir, between your release from Keraterm and coming to

11 court, have you been shown any photographs of anyone purporting to be this

12 individual Kolundzija that you referred to? Were you shown any

13 photographs or asked to identify anyone?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you see any television coverage of any incidents where an

16 individual purporting to be Kolundzija was shown on the television

17 cameras, since 1992 and coming to testify today?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Sir, do you feel that you would be able to recognise this

20 individual that you have referred to as Kolundzija if he were in the

21 courtroom today?

22 A. Well, I've told you already that it would be about 80 per cent

23 likelihood that I could recognise this man. Now, I mean it's eight to

24 nine years, it's a long time, but I still think that, yes, that I'd be

25 able to recognise him.

1 Q. I invite you to look around this courtroom today, and if you see

2 the individual that you recognise as Kolundzija, would you point him out

3 to us --

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sir Ivan, yes.

5 MR. LAWRENCE: I object to this dock identification. No

6 identification parade, no photographs. He hasn't seen him on television,

7 his description is unspecific. It amounts to three or four fleeting

8 glances in the sense that what the witness must have been seeing was

9 terrible traumatic happenings not concentrating on any particular

10 individual who wasn't doing those acts, therefore, they were very short

11 fleeting glances. There obviously is some element of doubt to his mind

12 because he has never said that he would be more than 80 per cent certain,

13 which indicates an amount of uncertainty.

14 In those circumstances, to allow him to make a choice from the

15 dock with all of the evils or to try to prevent dock identifications, the

16 effect of dock identifications would, in my respectful submission, tip

17 beyond normal line. This would need to be passed before such a dock

18 identification should be allowed. In my respectful submission, he should

19 not be allowed to try to identify someone in the dock.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, you've heard the objection. To our

23 mind, it hangs really on whether the time periods during which the witness

24 saw this person in the camp could be said to be a fleeting glance.

25 We are inviting you to get more evidence on that issue from the

1 witness before you proceed.

2 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. I intend to do that,

3 then. And the other thing that I might just say that clearly it's a

4 matter of weight and not a matter of admissibility. It would be my

5 submission it's a discretionary call, but by the Court and -- but I think

6 my learned friend is doing it on the basis of -- well, I suppose he's

7 asking you to exercise your discretion so I'll leave it at that time.

8 Q. Witness, talking about your opportunity for observation, can you

9 give the Court an indication on -- over the period of time that you had

10 opportunities to observe him, including times not that you have

11 specifically referred to, i.e., the beating incidents or the calling out

12 incidents, when you saw him in the camp, did you ever see him up close?

13 Did you ever see him in good daylight? Tell us about -- and how long an

14 opportunity you had to see him on other days.

15 A. The guard duty was from 6.00 to 1800, that is 6.00 in the morning

16 until 6.00 in the afternoon. So there was plenty of time to look around

17 even though we tried to be as inconspicuous as possible and never to draw

18 the attention because it -- then we would be safer. And we tried to look

19 less around the camp because that again increased our chances of

20 survival.

21 JUDGE MAY: Witness N, could you just concentrate on the question,

22 please. Over how many days did you see this man?

23 A. At the -- I'm trying to tell you how many days exactly. Between

24 three and four days. After the massacres, I did not see him often or

25 perhaps not at all after the massacre.

1 JUDGE MAY: Over those days, how often did you see him?

2 A. How often? You mean in terms of hours or --

3 JUDGE MAY: Did you see him once a day, or twice a day, or three

4 times a day, or more?

5 A. Well, the guards were mostly around the hut. That is where one

6 could see them. And when he was on duty and when they beat us, well,

7 perhaps two or three times a day.

8 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Over -- when you saw him on these

9 occasions, for roughly how long did you see him? Was it just a quick

10 glance at him or did you have a longer time to see him?

11 A. Well, I did not pay any particular attention to him. I didn't

12 really try to look at him or to ogle him. I'm telling you, we tried to be

13 as inconspicuous as possible. The less you looked at them, the better for

14 you.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would the French interpreter please come.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber considers that in the circumstances,

19 it would not be safe to allow this identification to take place. We take

20 note of the statement by the witness, that he never paid much attention

21 because to pay attention would be to expose himself to more danger.

22 Moreover, we also take account of his evidence that he would only be able

23 to identify this person up to 80 per cent.

24 We feel, in those circumstances, it would not be safe. So we

25 don't think a sufficient foundation has been laid, and it's not just a

1 question of weight.

2 Mr. Ryneveld.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Now, sir, do you know who the camp commander was?

5 A. Sikirica.

6 Q. How do you know that?

7 A. I learnt it from those other inmates, just as we learnt from them

8 who the guard commanders were. And there were also colleagues who worked

9 with him, people who knew him and were with us in Room 3. But when we

10 came, we did not know that. When we arrived, we did not know that he was

11 the camp warden. It was at a later stage.

12 Q. Did you know him before the war?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you know who the other shift commanders other than Kolundzija

15 were?

16 A. There was Kajin, Damir Dosen. There was also Fustar.

17 Q. And I believe you told us that a person by the name of Damir Dosen

18 sat on a chair when you were lying on your bellies; is that correct?

19 A. It is.

20 Q. Do you know what his nickname was, if any?

21 A. Kajin.

22 Q. So the person that you refer to as "Kajin," is that the same

23 person you refer to when you said Damir Dosen was sitting on a chair with

24 a gun while you were lying on your bellies in front of Room 3?

25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Do you remember any other incident involving Kajin in relation to

2 things happening to prisoners?

3 A. Well, let me tell you. Kajin, I did not see him beat anybody, but

4 as of the second day of our stay there until about three days before our

5 departure, we were taken every night by every shift. It doesn't matter

6 which shift it was. We were being taken out as of the second night until

7 about three nights before the departure. Every night, every single night

8 we were taken out. It does not matter which shift was on, Kajin's or

9 Fustar's or which. It did not matter. Not less than six men, not less,

10 not less than six, that was the minimum, not less than six men were taken

11 out, up to 15 or 16. And I did not see Kajin. I cannot say that I saw

12 him beat anyone or --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, we're --

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, I --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- coming up to 11.00.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. I have only very few questions left, but I'll

17 do that after the 11.00 break. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness N, we are going to take a break now for

19 half an hour. During the adjournment, you're not to discuss your evidence

20 with anybody, including the members of the Prosecution team.

21 We're adjourned until 11.30.

22 --- Recess taken at 11.04 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

1 Q. Now, Witness, just before the break, I had been asking you, sir,

2 questions about the person you referred to as Damir Dosen sitting in a

3 chair, and you knew him by the nickname Kajin. On how many occasions

4 would you say that you had an opportunity to see him?

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the witness, please.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Microphone. There we go.

7 A. As many times as I saw Kolundzija and the others.

8 MR. RYNEVELD:

9 Q. And on the occasion that you saw Kajin sitting in a chair, did you

10 have an opportunity to observe him for a period of time? In other words,

11 did you get a good look at him?

12 A. I could take a look at him, but in terms of observing him, no. I

13 did not observe him. And we had our backs to him. We were facing the

14 rooms as we were lying on our stomachs.

15 Q. Sir, you've told us about three incidents that I have enumerated

16 for you involving Kolundzija. On those occasions when you saw an

17 individual that you referred to as Kolundzija doing the things he did, how

18 did you find out that it was -- that was the name of the individual who

19 did things? Were you told that by other prisoners?

20 A. Yes. The others, the inmates who had been there before we

21 arrived.

22 Q. And any of the inmates who told you as to who it was that you saw

23 on those occasions, do you know whether any of them knew Mr. Kolundzija

24 before the war?

25 A. Probably some did too. But I don't know whether all of them knew

1 him, those who were in Rooms 1, 2, and 4, because Room 4, we were next to

2 them and when we would come out, we could communicate with them a little

3 bit.

4 Q. Do you know, sir, whether any of the people who told you the

5 identity of Mr. Kolundzija had been at the camp much longer than you, or

6 how long they had been there?

7 A. I think that they were there since May and we arrived in July.

8 Q. I'm just going to skip paragraph 13, Your Honours.

9 Sir, I understand that you left the camp in early August when the

10 camp closed; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. To your recollection, were there any beatings the last three days

13 before the camp closed?

14 A. To us, those were perhaps the three best days that we spent in the

15 camp. Another person came, I don't know whether he was a warden or not,

16 but a different person arrived. He was older, and he kept the keys and he

17 said, "Don't be afraid. Nobody will touch you again."

18 He was surprised when he saw us and when we told him that we had

19 not been given anything to eat for four days. And it was then, for the

20 first time, that we were allowed to line up first for the food

21 distribution. In those three days, nobody touched us or mistreated us.

22 This man was there all the time. Unfortunately, I don't know his

23 name but I would like to mention his name here because those three days we

24 could go out and communicate freely with other inmates. Nobody bothered

25 us. I don't know whether he had replaced Sikirica or what. I only know

1 that this man had told us that nobody would touch us any more.

2 And then on the 5th of August, the camp was dissolved. They told

3 us that we had another night.

4 Q. Do I understand correctly that this new individual took over as

5 camp commander about three days before the camp was closed on the 5th of

6 August; is that the effect of what you're telling us?

7 A. I don't know whether he was a warden. He must have been, because

8 he told us these things that nobody would touch us, and ordered us -- that

9 we take food first. And I know that he kept all the keys with him and he

10 talked to his -- older persons. He himself was a bit older. He wasn't

11 elderly, but he was advanced in age so he talked to his peers.

12 Q. Listen to my questions if you would, please, sir. Prior to the

13 2nd of August, you've told us earlier that Sikirica was the camp

14 commander; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you see Sikirica at the camp after the 2nd of August?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Instead, you saw this new, older man; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And when the new, older man showed up, conditions changed at the

21 camp; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, drastically.

23 Q. Were people beaten before the 2nd of August?

24 A. Before 2nd of August? Before 2nd of August, yes, they were. But

25 after this man arrived, nobody was touched again.

1 Q. Before the 2nd of August, you -- the people in Room 3 did not get

2 much food or were not permitted to have food; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that is correct.

4 Q. After the 2nd of August until the camp closed, were you now fed?

5 A. Yes. Food, and water as much as we wanted, and food as much as

6 everybody else.

7 Q. Sir, you were there from the 20th of July until the -- sorry, the

8 5th of August; is that correct?

9 A. That is correct.

10 Q. Over that period of time, which is slightly more than two weeks,

11 did you lose any body weight in that short period of time -- well, short,

12 that's a wrong phrase -- during that period of time?

13 A. I think had I undergone a diet, I would have not lost as much as I

14 did lose during that period, and I lost at least 15 kilograms. I weighed

15 67 to 70 kilograms when I went to the camp. And at Trnopolje, we had

16 scales. I don't know what it served for, and on that scale I showed 47,

17 48 kilograms. I don't know if it is an accurate one, but that's what it

18 was.

19 Q. Now, sir, when the camp closed, I understood that you were taken

20 to Trnopolje where you stayed until the 1st of October 1992; is that

21 correct?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. And after that, you were released and went to a refugee camp at

24 Karlovac?

25 A. Yes, that is correct.

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1 Q. And after your release, sir, were you a participant in the

2 creation of a list of people whom you remember to be missing from Room 3

3 as a result of the massacre?

4 A. Yes. We were three or four who knew most -- a large number of the

5 men there so we compiled a list of men from Hambarine, Rakovcani,

6 Rizvanovici, and a part Biscani.

7 Q. And is this list written in German?

8 A. Yes. A colleague of mine wrote it down.

9 Q. Do you remember how many names appear on the list that you were

10 able to collectively remember?

11 A. 147 that we knew of.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Mr. Usher, I'm going to ask you to show what -- a

13 document with ERN number 01046114 to the witness, and I have copies for my

14 learned friends and for the Bench.

15 Q. Witness, you're now being shown a document with a German title

16 that has 149 spaces, 147 of which have names beside them. Do you see

17 that?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. And is this the list that you assisted in preparing after your

20 release from Trnopolje?

21 A. Yes. We prepared it in Karlovac.

22 Q. Yes. Now, sir, without naming the names, are you able to tell us

23 whether any of your relatives were in Room 3 and how many, if so, appear

24 on this list? Don't give us names.

25 A. Out of 23, only two survived.

1 Q. And by that statement, do I understand that there were 23 of your

2 relatives in Room 3 with you at the -- during July of 1992? Nodding your

3 head meaning yes?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And of those 23 of your relatives, only you and one other

6 survived; is that correct?

7 A. That is correct.

8 MR. RYNEVELD: Might this list be entered as an exhibit in these

9 proceedings, tendered by the Prosecution?

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. What is the number?

11 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 39.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honours. I believe I have no

13 further questions of this witness at this time.

14 Would you answer my learned friends, please, Witness.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Ryneveld.

16 Mr. Greaves.

17 MR. GREAVES: I wonder whether the ELMO could be moved, because I

18 have some difficulty in seeing the witness. Thank you.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

20 Q. Witness N, just dealing with the list that was prepared by you,

21 can you tell us when was the list prepared?

22 A. Immediately after the release and after arrival in Karlovac,

23 because in other camps, we had no opportunity to prepare this because we

24 were afraid that it might be discovered. After we were released to

25 freedom in Karlovac, it was mostly those of us who were from Keraterm

1 there, and we compiled a list of men that we knew, even though this list

2 perhaps is even longer.

3 Q. Was the -- was it more than one person or just one other person

4 with whom you prepared the list?

5 A. Myself and three others.

6 Q. And were they all people who were -- had as their native tongue

7 the Bosnian language?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you explain to us then, please, why the list was prepared in

10 the German language?

11 A. That was translated from my list. I had a notebook, so with a

12 colleague of mine, I prepared this list and he wrote it down. It was for

13 me, so that I would have it. Because the investigators asked me to show

14 it to them, I gave them a copy, but I wanted to have a copy. And because

15 he was a foreigner and he did not know this, did not speak our language,

16 then I wrote it out for him.

17 Q. So it was written out in German because the investigator who was

18 dealing with you was a German or an Austrian? Is that the position?

19 A. No. No. I showed that, and then I said that this is what I had,

20 and I explained to him that this was written in German and that there were

21 some minor mistakes in writing, but I corrected those.

22 Q. Just help us, please. What was the purpose of turning an original

23 list, which was in your language, into the German language? Was it

24 because you were going to give it to somebody who was investigating these

25 matters who was from Germany or Austria?

1 A. No. What I had, what I brought with me, that was obsolete. There

2 were loose pages, and I have those loose leafs or pages at home. I can

3 bring them and show them, what had been transferred, copied from those

4 pages onto this, and you can check to see how all these pieces of paper

5 are.

6 Q. I'm not in the least doubting that you prepared original lists and

7 then put them together into one list, Witness N. What I'm trying to

8 understand, and perhaps you can help us, is for what purpose was it put

9 into the German language as opposed to being collated in your language,

10 the Bosnian language? Can you tell us that, please?

11 A. I can tell you and I'm telling you. I gave this list to my

12 colleague. And this was not being prepared for The Hague or for anyone

13 else. It was for me. And what he wrote in German, that I don't know. He

14 may have made a mistake, because I did not tell him that this was a list

15 of persons killed in Keraterm. This is -- that is what he wrote down in

16 German. But the names were written out in Bosnian.

17 Q. Have you made any sort of statement about your stay in Keraterm to

18 any official or police authority in Germany or Austria?

19 A. No. You see, sir, I wanted, at that time, to forget, to get rid

20 of it because it was hard when I was released. I was not interested in

21 the organisations. I was not interested in courts, anything. I lost

22 quite a bit in that camp, and I did not even wish to talk about it.

23 In fact, my wife suggested that I should go and talk it all out,

24 and I said, "Let go. I don't want to." Because I did not want to

25 remember. But then it boiled over at one point so that I volunteered to

1 become a witness. I couldn't ...

2 Q. So is it the position that you do not know why your colleague

3 prepared the list, the collated list in German; is that the position or

4 not?

5 A. It may have been his mistake that he put it there. Had I put --

6 had I put down the names of those who were killed at Keraterm, he would

7 have written it down. But the words that he put in, he did it on his

8 own.

9 Q. Right. Witness N, can you tell us, please, were you -- before the

10 events of 1992, were you involved on a personal basis in politics, whether

11 as a member of a political party or as an activist in a political party?

12 A. No. And had I been, I would not be sitting here.

13 Q. Did you do your national service in the JNA, Witness N?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In what branch of the service did you do your national service?

16 A. It was in the infantry.

17 Q. After your release, did you serve at any time in the army of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Have you ever had or do you continue to have any sort of

21 relationship with the intelligence or security services of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23 A. What -- no.

24 Q. Or of any other country, in particular, of German-speaking

25 countries?

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1 A. No.

2 Q. I'd like to turn now, please, to the period between the takeover

3 of power in Prijedor by Serb authorities of the end of April 1992 and your

4 arrest, Witness N. It's right, isn't it, that there were local Muslim

5 reserves who were established in that period; is that right?

6 A. The thing was that we were Muslims and this reserve platoon up

7 there. These were mostly older men. And of, course, there was the

8 reserve police. And the fact that they were all Muslims just reflects the

9 population who lived there. Had there been any Serbs there, they would

10 probably be in there.

11 Q. Yes. It's right, isn't it, that what you have described in

12 September of last year as local Muslim reserves, those reserves carried

13 out a number of military activities in your area, did they not, in the

14 period between April and June --

15 A. I need to interrupt you. In September, I don't think that I ever

16 mentioned September.

17 Q. I don't think that thus far I have mentioned September. Just wait

18 for the question to be completed, Witness N, and then answer it as

19 concisely as you can, please. It's right, isn't it, that between the 30th

20 of April 1992 and the 19th of July 1992, local Muslim reserves operated in

21 your district, did they not?

22 A. I told you that there was reserve police there and one reserve

23 platoon, one in each village, but lightly armed, M-48 rifles. And from

24 what I heard from men who were there, they each were issued with five

25 rounds of ammunition. I was not a part of either the reserve police or

1 the reserve platoon of the army.

2 Q. So help us about this: When you use the phrase "platoon," do you

3 refer to a military body of about 30 men in all or thereabouts?

4 A. Even less than that. Around 15 men, as far as I can remember.

5 Thereabouts. But they called themselves a reserve platoon. And those

6 were mostly people of an advanced age who only walked around, who just

7 walked up and down the street.

8 Q. So where had the young men gone to?

9 A. Where could they go? They were there all the time until the

10 attack. Where could I go? I mean everything was surrounded.

11 Q. In your village, who was it who set up the platoon?

12 A. That platoon existed before and after the attack. Well, no, not

13 after the attack but before the attack on Hambarine. And there was one

14 such in Prijedor and in all the other villages and localities. They must

15 have existed there. And in places where there were Muslims and Croats and

16 Serbs living, they must have been mixed. And where there were Serbs, they

17 had theirs. And in places which were markedly or purely Muslim, they were

18 made of Muslims. And it was a normal occurrence. And during the war of

19 Croatia they existed, because I did go out there and watch those men.

20 Those were those guards, those men. That's what they were called, guards,

21 during the war in Croatia.

22 Q. Do you know why a decision was taken to use only the older men as

23 opposed to the young men for these military units?

24 A. I don't really understand what you mean.

25 Q. Do you know for what reason and why, if you know, a decision was

1 taken to use only older men in these platoons as opposed to men of a

2 younger age?

3 A. Whether there was a decision taken, I do not know. And that it

4 was elderly or elder men, well, that was their assignment. I was assigned

5 to Banja Luka and I was there in 1989, but after that, they did not call

6 me up for an exercise. After that, I was at Manjaca, but then they did

7 not call me again. I did not go. That was where I was assigned to. And

8 I suppose those men had been assigned to those villages.

9 I can't really tell you whether there was any decision taken to

10 that effect, but those people must have been assigned to that -- to that

11 job, to that duty.

12 Q. When you say "assigned," who was it who was doing the assigning of

13 people to particular jobs, Witness N?

14 A. Well, I presume the Ministry in Prijedor. The Military Ministry

15 or, rather, the departments of the Ministry of the army, Military Ministry

16 in Prijedor, because my assignment also came from them.

17 Q. After the takeover of power in Prijedor at the end of April 1992,

18 did the young men remain or did they disappear at that stage?

19 A. Where could they go? We were surrounded. Not a fly could get

20 through. And we were crammed with refugees from other place, from

21 Bosanski Novi and so on and so forth. So where could we go and why should

22 we go? It was ours. It was my place, my village. Where would I go?

23 Q. Well, let's just look at the activities of these Muslim reserves.

24 They established, amongst other things, did they not, a series of

25 checkpoints around the Brdo area. Do you accept that?

1 A. Yes. After the checkpoints were set up Serb forces. Before that,

2 there was nothing, checkpoints or anything, and everybody could go through

3 freely, I mean everybody who did not carry weapons. Those who were armed

4 had to have their -- had to have a special permit to go through if they

5 were armed.

6 Q. And were checkpoints set up throughout the area of Prijedor as

7 well as your own village?

8 A. As far as I know, as far as I've heard, I did not see a single

9 checkpoint, but this is what I heard. There was a checkpoint below

10 Hambarine, on this other side toward Brdo. There was one by the bridge

11 across the Sana, on the other side of the Sana. That was manned by

12 Serbs. And there was perhaps something else. But I don't really know. I

13 didn't really want to know. I wasn't really interested.

14 Q. Was the purpose of the checkpoint; to permit Muslims to come and

15 go into the Brdo-Hambarine area but to keep others out?

16 A. No. No, sir. They captured our men down on the bridge and then

17 we came across those men in Keraterm, in the camp; that is, we saw those

18 men there later. We -- I mean men that we had looked for or, rather, that

19 their wives and children had looked for so that they could collect their

20 salaries from pulp and paper factory somewhere else, but those men had

21 been captured on the bridge and taken to camps.

22 And as far as I know, I didn't hear anything, that nobody was

23 arrested by those who had manned the checkpoint, and until the incident,

24 nobody was killed or abused. One could go through freely, even though I

25 lived some distance from that checkpoint, perhaps two and a half, three

1 kilometres, perhaps more, so that I could not see -- I could not really

2 see it, but I heard what I heard.

3 Q. Did you hear what weapons were deployed at these checkpoints,

4 Witness N?

5 A. I cannot tell you anything about it, what they had. But as far as

6 I know, the reserve platoon had M-48 rifles, and the reserve police had

7 several automatic rifles. Now, who was at that checkpoint, was it the

8 reserve platoon or the reserve police, I really can't tell you because I

9 do not know those men who were at the checkpoint.

10 Q. Apart from guarding the checkpoints, manning the checkpoints, did

11 the reserve police and the reserve platoon engage in other activities such

12 as patrolling and reconnaissance in the area; do you know that?

13 A. I am not familiar with what they did.

14 Q. Within the immediate vicinity of the village, were any defensive

15 positions, trenches, strong points, and so forth constructed at this time?

16 A. I wouldn't know that. I wouldn't know that. I said it once and

17 I'll say it a hundred times: Throughout the siege and the attack, I was

18 at home because my brother was incapacitated. He was 80 kilograms and I

19 was 70 kilograms, and yet I had to carry him down from the upper floor.

20 During the attacks, I had to carry him down to the cellar. So where could

21 I go and where would I? With an invalid brother, my mother invalid, my

22 old father, my brother was absent; where could I go?

23 Q. Are you familiar with the phrase "zemunica," Witness N?

24 A. Of course I am.

25 Q. Please explain to us what zemunica are, Witness N.

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1 A. What is a zemunica? A zemunica. Well, a place you can hide in.

2 I don't know. I mean what -- in the army, in the army, I learnt about

3 those dugouts, that those were places where you could hide in in the army,

4 but -- when I served with the Yugoslav Peoples' Army.

5 Q. They are underground shelters, are they not, designed for hiding

6 soldiers, medical supplies, ammunition, and food, are they not?

7 A. And civilians too.

8 Q. Were those constructed in your village in those days?

9 A. I really couldn't tell you that because I -- what I'm saying is I

10 did not move around. I did not do any reconnoitring. I wasn't

11 interested. I never even went to vote. I won't say that I was really a

12 Yugoslav but I was for Yugoslavia. So I don't know and I never supported

13 any nationalist parties on whatever side. I didn't want to know that.

14 Because I had enough -- I was kept busy by my family.

15 Q. Let's move on, please, to the incident at the checkpoint on the

16 22nd of May 1992. It's right, is it not, that on that date, a number of

17 Serb soldiers were shot at a checkpoint near Hambarine; do you accept

18 that?

19 A. If you want me to, I can tell you what I heard and I can tell you

20 how it was, that is, what I heard from others.

21 Q. So in broad terms, that's what you heard, that Serb soldiers were

22 shot and that led to the ultimatum being issued to the village; is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes. But what I heard first was that the Serb soldiers had opened

25 fire on that checkpoint and then the Bosniak reservists returned the

1 fire. And I suppose those others then got the short end of the stick.

2 MR. GREAVES: May we just go briefly into private session, Your

3 Honour.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

5 [Private session]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

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6 [redacted]

7 [Open session]

8 MR. GREAVES:

9 Q. Was Aziz Aliskovic someone whom you knew well and spoke to on

10 regular occasions, Witness N?

11 A. Not regularly, but I knew him. But I did not communicate with him

12 regularly. Well, once or not once in a year. And particularly when he

13 moved out, he did not live in Rakovcani any more, he lived in Hambarine,

14 so that ...

15 Q. Did you speak to him at all during the period between the 30th of

16 April and the 22nd of May, 1992?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you hear from others what role he was playing in the defence

19 of the area?

20 A. No.

21 Q. The consequences of his not being surrendered were that a total of

22 four shells were fired by a tank at Hambarine; is that correct?

23 A. As far as I know, as far as I heard, four shells were fired at

24 Hambarine that night, sometime after 10.00, a few minutes after 10.00. I

25 was at home at the time.

1 Q. Is it also right that there was a further ultimatum to the village

2 for weapons to be surrendered and a deadline given? Is that correct?

3 A. Yes. One could hear it. We heard it on Radio Prijedor, and Radio

4 Prijedor is a store [as interpreted] in his own right. But we could hear

5 them calling us, but it wasn't a natural call-up guaranteeing something.

6 It was propaganda. Some Green Berets, some Mujahedin, I don't know, all

7 sorts of names. "You are all Green Berets, all Mujahedin," and I never

8 once saw a Green Beret. I never saw a single Mujahedin up there.

9 Q. But it's right, isn't it, there were people who were armed in the

10 village at that time?

11 A. Well, armed. Those who were appointed by the Ministry in

12 Prijedor, that Military Ministry, military department in Prijedor, people

13 who were assigned there, those people were armed. Whether somebody else

14 had perhaps a rifle or two, I can't tell you that because I didn't go

15 around to see who had a rifle or something else.

16 Q. And initially, those people did not surrender their weapons to the

17 Serbs, the consequence of which that the shelling then took place; is that

18 right?

19 A. Well, those men opined that they shouldn't turn over their

20 weapons, that there was no reason for them to turn over their weapons, and

21 then the shelling ensued at 12.00.

22 Q. May we conclude from these facts, Witness N, that a decision was

23 taken, until the shelling started, that those who were armed would

24 continue to resist and fight against Serb incursions?

25 A. Whether there was a decision taken or not, I do not know. Whether

1 they fought or not, again, I do not know. I was not there and I cannot

2 tell you.

3 Q. But those weapons were indeed surrendered after the shelling, were

4 they not?

5 A. Yes, the weapons were handed over.

6 Q. And the weapons having been handed over, it's right that the

7 situation then settled down for quite some time, did it not?

8 A. Well, depends. The Prijedor-Ljubija road was taken, then fire was

9 opened from those checkpoints of theirs. Fire was opened on people who

10 were nearby or in their houses, because the whole village had retreated

11 toward Carakovo or Rizvanovici and Rakovcani, and there were incursions.

12 There were incursions by those. They found me. I said here that I was

13 found at home, that I was taken out to be shot. Once I fled when they

14 broke in. The second time I was taken out to be shot, and they -- then

15 they didn't shoot me because I didn't know where hodza was. I told them

16 what I knew.

17 So, yes, there were incursions. They just burst in and round up

18 men that they find, beat them and ...

19 Q. That may have happened in due course, but initially, after the

20 surrender of weapons - and I'm using your phrase that you gave to the

21 Office of the Prosecutor in September of last year - the situation settled

22 down, did it not, and a degree of normality returned to the area? Isn't

23 that the position?

24 A. Well, not right there and then. Later on, yes. They even

25 apportioned some fuel so that wheat could be harvested, so that crops

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1 could be harvested below Rizvanovici, Rakovcani, and in other places. So

2 they gave fuel to people who had their harvesting machinery. But after

3 this, other soldiers would come and seize that fuel which had been given

4 to those people, and these over there wanted us to account for the fuel

5 that they had given us in the first place. But it was probably, "Well,

6 let them go out and harvest their wheat and we'll see what we'll do with

7 them later."

8 Q. And the wheat and so on that had been harvested, was that stored

9 in the Hambarine area?

10 A. No, no, no. Every household had its plot of land, and they dried

11 this wheat on those plots of land, on the roofs or barns. And when it had

12 dried, because we didn't have any flour, but then -- and then when the

13 time came to take this wheat to mills and get the flour, that is when they

14 came and took it all. And the second incident would not have happened had

15 not this man asked for the fuel.

16 Q. I'm going to come to that in a moment. After the 24th of May and

17 the surrender, the initial surrender of weapons, it's right, isn't it,

18 that a significant number of refugees started to enter your area? Do you

19 accept that?

20 A. There were refugees before the 20 whatever, before the attack.

21 There were refugees from Bosanski Novi, from Blagaj, and those other

22 places, and we were really brimming with them. We had water, but we did

23 not have electricity. We had a flour mill, but there was nothing to grind

24 there. So we lived off of what we had.

25 Q. The refugees who were coming into the area from Bosanski Novi,

1 were those mostly women and children and older men?

2 A. And men too. Well, not so many of them younger men. Mostly

3 women, children, and elderly men, and some younger men. How many, I can't

4 tell you, because I can't tell you how many refugees arrived. I know that

5 my uncle and his brother and their families all came to my house, and we

6 had somehow to -- to survive somehow, that is, be very strict with the

7 food that we had.

8 Q. Do you know if amongst those refugees there were some who were

9 bearing arms?

10 A. No. You couldn't bring it through. Even if you had any weapons,

11 you couldn't bring it through because we were surrounded. We were

12 surrounded. Everything around us had been taken. And then those men were

13 let through. I suppose from Miska Glava or perhaps from Surkovci or from

14 Ljubija. I don't know where they let them through, but they came through,

15 and they went to people that they were related to or friends to. So they

16 went to the houses they knew and others didn't, but they all enjoyed the

17 same treatment regardless of whether they had anyone of their own there or

18 not.

19 Q. But other arms were brought into the area, were they not?

20 A. I cannot tell you that because I did not see that.

21 Q. Help me about this: There was an incident when soldiers came to

22 your village, in particular, looking for the local hodza after which

23 further weapons were surrendered to the Serb forces, were they not?

24 A. They came asking for hodza, and they rounded up 16 of us and as

25 they were asking us, "Where is hodza?" And I said that he'd fled.

1 "Where?" I said, "Towards Rizvanovici." When was that, and when it all

2 started, and then one of them wanted to learn some further details and

3 asked us, "Well, and where is this one? Where is that one?" And they

4 also asked, "Does anyone have a weapon?" And one of those elderly men had

5 a hunting rifle and a pistol and he said, "I have a licence for this," and

6 they said, "Never mind the licence, bring them out." And he brought out a

7 hunting rifle and a pistol, and for both of them the man had the

8 licences.

9 Q. During this incident, Witness N, it's right, isn't it, that the

10 Serbs involved in it were looking for men of military age; do you accept

11 that?

12 A. Excuse me, what troops? Who kind of troops, whose?

13 Q. In your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, you used the

14 phrase, "Serb soldiers came to the mosque." May we conclude from that

15 that the people who came were soldiers, Witness N?

16 A. I did not say they entered the mosque. They entered my house or

17 rather fetched up in front of my house and there were eight of us. And we

18 were young, and he said, "There's the kind we're looking for." But the

19 reason -- I don't think -- I don't think they had come because of us. I

20 think they came because of hodza. But they fetched up right in front of

21 our house and they opened the door and said, "All men out." But before

22 that, they had been at the mosque.

23 Q. [Previous translation continues]... we'll get on a lot quicker.

24 You used the phrase to the Office of the Prosecutor, "Serb soldiers." The

25 question is this: May we conclude from that that the people who came to

1 the village on this occasion were soldiers?

2 A. Were they soldiers? Well, they were armed. They wore uniforms.

3 Now, it varied. I mean, they wore all sorts of uniforms; some had

4 camouflage uniforms, some had regular uniforms. That varied. Now,

5 whether they were soldiers or whether they were something else to us, they

6 were not the soldiers of the Yugoslav Peoples' Army because they did not

7 have the insignia on of the Yugoslav Peoples' Army.

8 Q. Let's turn now, if we may, please, to the 19th of July 1992.

9 There was an incident, was there not, on that date at the home of Rifet

10 Dedic; do you recall that?

11 A. I said what I had heard, and it is true there was this incident at

12 Rifet Dedic's where a soldier was killed. They said that it was a Serb

13 soldier, but nobody ever saw this soldier. I never saw him dead, nor was

14 I there. And then they came from Prijedor in several vehicles. They

15 rounded up about ten men at the mosque near Rizvanovici and took them to

16 Prijedor. After that, they fired about 20 shells in the area of

17 Rizvanovici, I think around the mosque. These men never came back, those

18 ten, the ten that were taken away.

19 Q. In your account of these matters to the Office of the Prosecutor

20 in September of last year, you made it plain, did you not, that one of the

21 soldiers who had gone to the home of Rifet Dedic was, in fact, killed.

22 That was the information that you had; isn't that right?

23 A. I said that they had said that a Serb soldier had been killed.

24 That is what I had heard. Now, whether he had entered the house, whether

25 he was killed behind the house, in front of the house, that I wouldn't be

1 able to say, and whether he was killed. I didn't see him. I don't know

2 who did see him.

3 Q. So when you said and used the following phrase, "Something

4 happened and one of the soldiers was killed," in your statement to the

5 Office of the Prosecutor, you are now saying you're not sure if that is a

6 correct statement of fact; is that it?

7 A. I said that I had heard that one Serb soldier had been killed.

8 And whether he was killed or not, I cannot say because I was not there.

9 Q. The following day, it was people, men of military age, who were

10 separated out and taken away; is that correct?

11 A. Not only able-bodied men, but there were also the underaged men.

12 There was my relative's son, he was 14 years of age. Was he of an

13 able-bodied person? And not only him, there were several such boys who

14 had to go through everything that we went through there.

15 Men who were up to 60 years of age were taken away. Those who

16 were over 60 had to prove that they were over 60 in order to be taken off

17 the bus and left at Rizvanovici. What they did with them later, that I

18 don't know. I don't know whether they released them back to their homes

19 or what. I can only say that whoever looked well, even if they were 60,

20 he was not believed.

21 Q. The identification cards were examined and collected; is that

22 correct?

23 A. They didn't look at them. They didn't look at who was born when,

24 except with those who were over 60. And from the rest of us, they simply

25 collected identity cards.

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1 Q. And these identity cards were returned to you, were they not, when

2 you got off the bus at Keraterm?

3 A. One part of these identity cards, not all of them.

4 Q. Did you receive your identity card back?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you retain it throughout your stay at Keraterm?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And the others who had had their identity cards returned to them,

9 did they retain theirs throughout their stay at Keraterm?

10 A. I cannot tell you that, whether they kept them or not. I know

11 that while I was -- while I kept it in my pocket, the picture detached,

12 became detached. Then I kept it separately, and I picked it up again

13 before the closure of the camp. Had I kept it on me during all that

14 period when there was such heat, it would have all disintegrated.

15 But I cannot say whether the others kept theirs. I know that some

16 asked for them, but they weren't around. I know that there was a bag with

17 these identity cards. They just threw it out and then people picked their

18 own, but some never received theirs back.

19 Q. Just going back briefly, if I may, please, Witness N, to the time

20 of your detention. There was one man who was epileptic, is that correct,

21 who was sent home and not taken with the others; is that correct?

22 A. Yes. This incident happened at Rizvanovici. He gave them

23 documents, I think it was medical findings. He told him that he suffered

24 from epilepsy. And then a soldier took him out. He was surrounded by

25 soldiers, two or three. I know that they beat him up. I didn't even dare

1 look. They beat him up completely.

2 I don't know how he was able to walk. He was holding his hand

3 like this and he staggered along. Had he gone down to the ground, they

4 probably would have killed him.

5 Q. Upon your arrival at Keraterm, you were told you would be

6 interrogated and that nothing would happen to you if you hadn't been

7 involved in extremist or military activities. Do you recall that?

8 A. No. We were told this: Whoever did not have weapons would not

9 suffer anything and who was not guilty. Now, I do not know what they

10 meant who was guilty and who was not guilty. How they judged who was

11 guilty and who was not guilty, this I don't know.

12 Q. When you were placed in Room 3, it was empty at the time when you

13 were put in there, wasn't it?

14 A. I did not enter the first, I was among the last to enter, but the

15 room was empty. It had been prepared for us. It had been vacated. Had

16 anybody been in there -- we couldn't fit in there anyway. One person

17 would sit down and the other person would rest a leg on his shoulder.

18 They just packed us all in.

19 Q. So during your stay, Witness N, from the 20th of July to early

20 August, the people who were in Room 3 with you were people who had arrived

21 from the Brdo and Hambarine area; is that correct?

22 A. Hambarine are part of Brdo. Rakovcani, Rizvanovici, Carakovo,

23 Hambarine, this is all Brdo. Brdo is the name given later to the area,

24 because we were a little bit above Prijedor and it went Biscani,

25 Rizvanovici, Carakovo, Hambarine, Zemunica.

1 Q. Room 3 was empty when you arrived. It filled up with people who

2 had been newly arrested at the same time as you; is that correct?

3 A. Yes. We all came there together. I don't know in how many

4 buses. I don't know how many busloads there were. There was even a bus

5 from Biscani who unloaded the inmates from Biscani, and then they waited

6 to see whether more men would -- could be fitted in the room. So people

7 were saying that there was no more room, that no more people could be

8 fitted into that room. And I think that then they took them to Trnopolje,

9 the rest of these men. They were lucky.

10 Q. So none of the occupants of Room 3 during your stay in Room 3 were

11 people who had been in the camp prior to the 20th of July; is that

12 correct?

13 A. No. That room had been prepared there for us.

14 Q. You have asserted that you were able to have contact with people

15 who had been there prior to the 20th of July, and you were able to get

16 information about the camp from them. That isn't true, is it, Witness N?

17 A. We got in touch with these persons only later, and it is then that

18 we learned who the guard commander was and who others were. I did not

19 know any one of these who are here now. But I did know some others

20 because we used to play soccer together, and I knew some by sight. But

21 the information, who was who and where they were from, we received from

22 the inmates who had already been there for a while.

23 Q. That was information you were given after you had left the camp,

24 was it?

25 A. No, in the camp.

1 Q. Why did you tell the Office of the Prosecutor in September of last

2 year this: "We were not allowed to have contact with the prisoners in the

3 other rooms"?

4 A. I said this: During the first days, we were not allowed to have

5 contact with inmates, with prisoners from other rooms. After the massacre

6 and during the tenure of this new warden or whatever he was, we were able

7 to mingle and contact with the other inmates, and there were other men who

8 knew some of us and who entered our room because they had their relatives

9 there, some kin.

10 Q. You were locked in every night, is that correct, prior to the

11 incident where these people were killed?

12 A. Yes, we were locked up, and then they would unlock when there

13 would be a roll call or they would call us out. Then they would unlock.

14 And they -- they would unlock the door around 7.00, I think - that was on

15 the second day - and the third, until Friday, and on Friday they did not

16 unlock the whole day.

17 Q. In this initial period, you were allowed out of the Room 3 on

18 each -- on each day; is that correct?

19 A. The first day, we went out. Some people knew some others. We

20 talked a little. On the second day, when -- until they took those six men

21 away, we were not allowed to come out. On the second day, I think we came

22 out in the afternoon, towards the evening. We were out for two or three

23 hours. That was on the second day. On the third day, they brought us out

24 during the day and they beat us up. As I said, we were lying on the grass

25 for three or four hours. Then on -- that is, Thursday night they locked

1 us up, and Friday, the whole day went as I described.

2 Q. You see, you told the Office of the Prosecutor that on the second

3 day, you went -- all went outside the room. Are you saying that's not

4 correct?

5 A. Yes, I did say that we had come out of the room, but not for the

6 whole day.

7 Q. If someone was to have asserted that you weren't allowed out at

8 all and were kept in all day, that wouldn't be correct, would it?

9 A. That we were not allowed. Hmm. How shall I put it? It was good

10 when somebody would be allowed to come out to breathe some fresh air. The

11 best would have been to just dig a hole and hide in it so that nobody

12 would see you.

13 Q. Do you know, please, either of the following two people: Ibrahim

14 Petrovac?

15 A. Ibrahim Petrovac was beaten up twice. He was taken out. I don't

16 know whether it was his right arm that was damaged, but it doubled in size

17 from the swelling. He was in the camp.

18 Q. Was he in Room 3 with you?

19 A. Yes. He was lucky. He was taken to the hospital and then from

20 there he was taken to Trnopolje. We thought that they would be killed

21 when -- I think that there were five of them that were taken away.

22 Q. And the second --

23 A. But that was before the closure, the closing of the camp. That

24 was during the period when there was the older warden. A doctor arrived.

25 This was when the camp was to close. He examined all those who were

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1 beaten and all those who had visible injuries were taken away.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves.

3 MR. GREAVES: It's not that easy to get in -- a word in edgewise,

4 I'm afraid.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Confine the witness to the evidence that you

6 want. Don't let him run away.

7 MR. GREAVES:

8 Q. Very important, Witness N. Just listen to the question, answer

9 the question, if you would, please. The second person I want to ask you

10 about, whether you knew him or not, and it really only requires a yes or

11 no answer, is Mujo Karupovic. Did you know him?

12 A. Mujo Karupovic. I know that name, yes.

13 Q. Was he in Room 3 with you?

14 A. I don't know if that is a person from Carakovo. That I don't

15 know. I don't recall him. It is possible, because there were some

16 persons from Carakovo. I don't know whether he was from that area,

17 Gomjenica, Carakovo. As I said, I knew mostly people from Rizvanovici,

18 Rakovcani, and a part of Biscani, and the other people who were over from

19 the other side, Gomjenica and Carakovo and that other area adjoining

20 Gomjenica and Carakovo, those I did not know so well.

21 Q. Witness N, at the beginning of the incident in Room 3 when the

22 shots were fired, some sort of device, a gas bomb or something or other

23 was let off; is that correct?

24 A. Some -- there was gas. Now, whether -- I don't know whether it

25 was teargas, nerve gas, I couldn't tell you that. But I know that it made

1 the situation that was bad inside even worse.

2 Q. Did it produce just an invisible vapour that then caused you to

3 have some sort of reaction?

4 A. What I saw was a flash and then I saw the smoke coming in. At

5 that point, I was being pushed back, but I did not fall on my back, I sort

6 of folded and I fell to my -- on my stomach. I don't know if it was

7 invisible but the smoke started coming in and then there was a big mess,

8 confusion in front of me.

9 Q. As between Room 3 and Room 4, what sort of separation was there?

10 Was there a wall which went partly up to the roof and had a gap at the

11 top?

12 A. No. No. No. It was separated and there was a wall. There was

13 no gap.

14 Q. Can you help us as to what time you believe the incident of the

15 shooting started, Witness N?

16 A. I cannot tell you the exact time, but I know that it was dark. I

17 don't know if it was fully dark, but it was quite dark.

18 Q. The firing which took place, did that last for a short period of

19 time, in other words, a matter of minutes?

20 A. To us, it looked like eternity, but I don't know how many minutes

21 it lasted. We were just fighting for survival so I cannot tell you how

22 long it lasted. I just fought for my own survival. I did not count the

23 bullets. I didn't -- I did not pay attention to the shooting. I just

24 tried to survive. It was crazy. A judgement day is probably better than

25 what we had then.

1 Q. I understand that it was a terrible incident. I just want you to

2 help me as best you can, please, Witness N. At dawn the following

3 morning, in other words, when it got light, is this correct that someone

4 ordered Dr. Samir Ramulic to make a list of some sort, a list of the

5 wounded?

6 A. Yes. He was ordered to make a list of the wounded. Nobody said

7 anything about the dead except that they said that we should push them

8 through the opening that was made by Kasim Fazlic which was 60, 70

9 centimetres high from the concrete floor, and this is where we pushed

10 through the dead and, in fact, the wounded ones also left by that

11 opening. They didn't open the door to let them out.

12 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that the bodies of the dead were thrown

13 onto the pista at that point; do you accept that?

14 A. The bodies were probably in front of the room, lined up. Whether

15 they were all the way -- or whether there were additional bodies on the

16 pista, that I couldn't tell you because I didn't see. I only know that

17 when the truck arrived, they loaded up the bodies, both the wounded ones

18 and the -- those six that I mentioned. I think that there were six.

19 They also climbed on the truck. They never came back to the

20 room. They -- how many additional persons went along with them, that I

21 don't know.

22 Q. It's right, isn't it, that your recollection is that 98 people

23 inside had been killed; do you recall that?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. And presumably, getting those bodies from inside Room 3 to the

1 outside onto the pista, presumably that took a considerable period of

2 time; is that right?

3 A. We were throwing them out. We were throwing them out literally, I

4 have to say, because their heads would bang against the pavement. I don't

5 know how long it took. We were all carrying these men. A brother was

6 carrying his own brother or relatives were carrying their own relatives.

7 And four or five were carrying a certain person, depending on their

8 weight. I don't know who took them over on the other side, because there

9 were persons outside but I don't know who they were.

10 Q. Did that process of putting the bodies or getting the bodies from

11 inside out onto the pista, did that start at dawn or later?

12 A. Not quite at dawn. Not quite at dawn. As I said, I didn't have a

13 watch. I couldn't orient myself in time. We just did not have watches so

14 I don't know what time it was. But it wasn't that early. It wasn't at

15 the break of dawn.

16 Q. And later on during the day, is this correct that Cupo Banovic

17 came to the room; do you recall that?

18 A. He came in in the morning. He greeted us, and he said, "Do you

19 want to run?" This is what he said. And then I don't know which shift

20 came, which guards came, how many there were around, that I don't know.

21 But I just know that it was hard because [redacted]. But I felt

22 sad, I felt sad for all the people who were young and older who were

23 killed. It was terrible.

24 JUDGE MAY: Is there anything more you want to know about this?

25 MR. GREAVES: There are one or two other just details.

1 Q. Witness N, Banovic came, he greeted you and then left; is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Apart from the people who were asked to go outside and assist in

5 loading the truck with bodies, no one else was told to go out; is that

6 correct? No one else was allowed out.

7 A. I cannot tell you right now whether anyone else was taken out. I

8 know that I hid in that alcove. I was fading. I was either going to

9 sleep or unconscious. So I waited in this alcove while people were being

10 taken out. I may have even fallen asleep during that period because it

11 was a very tough night. It was some kind of my -- my eyelids were just

12 closing. I was exhausted. I was falling asleep. I don't know whether he

13 was taking anybody else out that morning or before that. I can't tell

14 you.

15 Q. Did you retain consciousness between daybreak and nightfall the

16 following evening?

17 A. I was conscious until late into the night, until this -- I know

18 that these 15 men were taken out, this Duratovic and then twice six men.

19 And then during the night, I either fell asleep or I lost consciousness.

20 What happened later, I wouldn't be able to say but I did not -- I was not

21 awake the whole night.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves, unless you are going to close --

23 MR. GREAVES: One more question that's pertinent to this, and then

24 I'm on to another topic. If you will indulge me.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. One more question.

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1 MR. GREAVES:

2 Q. Witness N, between daybreak and when the group of men were taken

3 out and you heard shots, you heard no other shots during the course of

4 that day; that's correct, is it not?

5 A. In the course of that day?

6 Q. Between daybreak and nightfall.

7 A. That second day, between daybreak and nightfall of that second

8 day?

9 Q. Yes. The incident of the shooting into the room has taken place

10 during the night. Daybreak follows and we proceed on to nightfall.

11 Between that daybreak, the first daybreak after the incident and the first

12 nightfall, you heard no other shots, did you?

13 A. I cannot tell you whether there was additional shooting. I know

14 that I went to -- in that corner and when Banovic came in, he greeted us

15 with "Good morning" and things like that. And then I went to that alcove,

16 and then I was either unconscious or asleep until these men were taken

17 out. And when they said that these -- the list of the wounded should be

18 made, he came to the door and said, "Give me the list of the wounded

19 ones." And whether that was at break of dawn or during that period, that

20 I'm unable to say.

21 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, that's a convenient moment, please.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness N, we are going to take the adjournment

23 now until 2.30. During the break, I remind you not to discuss your

24 evidence with anybody and that includes members of the Prosecution. We

25 are adjourned until 2.30.

1 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.05 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 2.35 a.m.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves, you're to continue with your

4 cross-examination.

5 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

6 Q. Witness N, I want to talk very briefly about the night which

7 followed the major killing in Room 3 during which a number of people were

8 taken out and you heard some shots. It's correct, isn't it, that you only

9 heard on that night two shots? Do you accept that?

10 A. I do, yes, in case of Ismet Duratovic. Whether he was killed --

11 well, I did not see that.

12 Q. But that was the maximum extent of shots which you heard that

13 night; two only. Do you accept that?

14 A. That is how many I heard, but other inmates told me there were

15 many more. But while I was conscious, while I was in possession of my

16 seen -- senses, I heard those two.

17 Q. In the days which followed these two incidents, how many people

18 remained in Room 3, please, Witness N?

19 A. Could you repeat that question, please? I'm not sure that I

20 understood it right.

21 Q. Yes. The days which followed these two incidents, that is, the

22 major shooting in Room 3 and the taking out of people the following night,

23 in the days which followed that, how many people remained in Room 3?

24 A. How many remained. Well, I can't give you the exact number

25 because I did not count those who remained, but it would be between 100,

1 150, or perhaps even as many as 200. I can't give you the exact number

2 after all these massacres.

3 Q. And in the days which followed these two incidents, did you and

4 your fellow detainees discuss what had happened?

5 A. Well, how shall I put it? Everybody was out to protect himself.

6 Everybody grieved for persons they lost and so did I. There were few of

7 those who had been taken out and beaten. People didn't talk much.

8 Everybody were engrossed in their own thoughts. People were taken aback

9 and frightened. They didn't know would the next be and what would happen

10 to him. Nobody knew. And there were stories about what -- it depended.

11 Q. Even though people didn't talk much, Witness N, did they talk a

12 bit about what had happened on the night and the following night?

13 A. Well, there was -- I mean, people talked as much as they could,

14 but we really didn't have much time to talk. Well, I'm saying we didn't

15 have much time to talk or anything else, because one always -- one could

16 not stop wondering, Am I the next one or who is the next one? And there

17 was, yes, some talk.

18 Q. And the two incidents to which I have referred you, the main

19 significant killing and the taking out of people the following night, were

20 those the only two matters which were discussed?

21 A. Well, it was about who had been taken out, when, how. People were

22 tired. People were just too tired. It was with all this fighting to

23 survive, to stay on the surface. And after that night, I don't know how

24 to describe that state of mind. There was an overriding depression

25 because people had lost all hope that they'd get out of there alive. We

1 thought that they'd kill us all. Nobody -- and I was the first one who

2 did not believe that I'd come alive after those massacres.

3 Q. Since your release from Keraterm and Trnopolje, have you -- you've

4 obviously discussed events in Keraterm with fellow detainees; is that

5 correct?

6 A. You see, while you're locked up and while that is so and while

7 there are guards around you or soldiers or whoever, you try to shrink.

8 You try to talk as little as possible. And how did people talk? Why did

9 he go out? Why didn't he go out? When was he taken away? Where was he

10 taken away? That was there. Some people had less presence of mind than

11 others because some had suffered more from the lack of air, from

12 suffocation, or perhaps went through it, survived, but they'd lost their

13 presence of mind. They were simply beyond themselves. And even I am not

14 aware of everything that happened.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, the question was: Did you discuss the

16 events in Keraterm with your fellow detainees?

17 MR. GREAVES: After his release.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: After your release. What is the precise answer?

19 A. Oh, after the release. After I left the camp. No.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Please move on.

21 MR. GREAVES: Thank you.

22 Q. Witness N, subsequent to these events, you were, in fact, yourself

23 interrogated; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. During the course of that interrogation, it's right, isn't it,

1 that you were not beaten?

2 A. That is right.

3 Q. Did you know the people who were interrogating you?

4 A. I've seen them before. There were two. One had a moustache, on

5 the large side, and another one was in a uniform, whether police or army,

6 I didn't really try to look at him much, but this first one interrogated

7 me. The other one only kept his eye on me. But they did not beat me.

8 They mostly asked me about the happenings up there and whether I knew

9 somebody, whether I was active, who had I voted for.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: The precise question was: Did you know the

11 people who were interrogating you? Did you know them?

12 A. No. No.

13 MR. GREAVES:

14 Q. What was the nature of the questions which you were asked during

15 the course of that interrogation, Witness N? Was it about you personally,

16 your politics, whether you'd taken part in military activities, questions

17 like that?

18 A. Yes. There were some very broad questions about everything, about

19 my folk, about myself, about everything that went on up there.

20 Q. I'd like now to have your assistance, please, on the date of

21 closure of the camp and when the new commander arrived. The camp closed,

22 according to you, on the 5th of August. Other witnesses have spoken of

23 the new commander arriving about a week or so before the closure of the

24 camp. Would you accept that you may be mistaken as to the shortness of

25 the period before the closure when the new commander arrived?

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1 A. No.

2 Q. So those witnesses who have put it as long as a week, they would

3 not be correct if they had put it as long as that period; is that what

4 you're saying?

5 A. I'm saying that I saw him on those last three days.

6 Q. So what it comes to is that your knowledge of the new commander is

7 derived from having seen him, not from having known of his taking over

8 before those three days; is that what it is?

9 A. He came to us, and I said those elder men spoke with him and he

10 was also surprised. And had he come seven days earlier, he wouldn't have

11 been all that surprised -- well, I don't know.

12 Q. Does the name Zivko Knezevic mean anything to you in the context

13 of Keraterm camp?

14 A. No. No. The name does not ring the bell.

15 Q. Or the name Marinko Sandzak, in particular, in relation to the

16 name of the new commander?

17 A. No. No. No. Once again, I don't know that. I'm telling you

18 that I didn't know the name of the new commander. And he did not tell us

19 his name. Perhaps somebody knew him but I didn't. I mean, he did not

20 come to us and say, "My name is such and such." He simply came to us and

21 then an elder man spoke with him, and then he said that there would be no

22 more beatings and anything, and it was the first time that he allowed us

23 to have our meal first. Had he arrived earlier -- well, I do not know if

24 he did but I just don't think so. I don't believe so.

25 Q. Witness N, I'd like to turn now to the sending of people from

1 Keraterm to Omarska at the time when the camp was closed. It's right,

2 isn't it, that the person who read out the names of those selected to go

3 on the buses to Omarska was somebody called Kondic; do you accept that?

4 A. I do.

5 Q. And he was someone who you had seen at the camp before that day;

6 is that right?

7 A. Yes, just as often as all the others.

8 Q. Turning now, Witness N, to the issue of who the camp commander was

9 during the period before the new commander arrived, it's right, isn't it,

10 that you were told by one other inmate who pointed him out to you and

11 attributed a name to him; isn't that right?

12 A. Yes, we heard from other inmates who was what in that camp.

13 Q. But in relation to Sikirica, it was just one other person who

14 identified him to you by name, was it not?

15 A. It was his colleague from work, they used to work together, and he

16 knew him. That man is called Crljenkovic, Ramo Crljenkovic. It's

17 interesting to talk to people who were fellows from work who knew all

18 those guards. Those people, if they were not killed, were amongst those

19 100 or 150 who were put on the bus to Omarska.

20 Q. You did not know the person Sikirica from before the war, did

21 you?

22 A. No. No, I did not.

23 Q. So you were dependent entirely on information from one other

24 person to identify that person by name, weren't you?

25 A. It wasn't only one person. The one who identified him by name was

1 his workfellow, but other inmates also spoke about who was the commander,

2 who was the commander of what, and as time went on, one could see that.

3 Q. Finally this, Witness N: Throughout your period in detention,

4 whether it be at Keraterm or Trnopolje, up until the end of August 1992,

5 you and your fellow detainees were wholly within the power of the Serb

6 authorities, weren't they?

7 A. Yes, both in Keraterm and in Trnopolje, until we were taken over

8 by the UNHCR towards the end.

9 Q. And they could, those Serb authorities, have at any time, had they

10 so wished to do, killed all of you who were in their power, couldn't

11 they?

12 A. In Keraterm? In the camp at Keraterm? Well, yes, I guess so. I

13 don't think anybody felt safe there.

14 Q. And if it had been their intention to kill all of you, there would

15 have been no point in giving back to you your identity cards, would

16 there?

17 A. Whether they intended to kill us all, well, it's a difficult

18 question. Whether it was their intention to let us all go, that is an

19 easy question. No, they didn't intend to let us all go.

20 Q. Thank you, Witness N.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Greaves.

22 Mr. Rodic.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Rodic:

24 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

25 A. Good afternoon.

1 Q. In view of all that you had -- that you have gone through and that

2 you told about to the Court today, I should like to ask you again to go

3 back to that period which we may call the period of war. Which are the

4 days that you remember, the days which something important happened?

5 A. Well, something important? That was the 30th of April to the

6 1st of May, because then Bosniak policemen were disarmed and the Serb flag

7 appeared on the Prijedor Hotel.

8 Another red day, another important day, was -- well, I don't

9 know. Perhaps the incursion of those groups, when I was taken out to be

10 shot. And why I wasn't shot then, they will know.

11 Another important date is the 19th of July, the 20th of July, the

12 24th of July, the 25th of July, the 5th of August, the 1st of October the

13 most important date of all.

14 Q. The 1st of October is, I suppose, the first day of freedom. Is

15 that what you're trying to say?

16 A. Of course.

17 Q. When my learned friend asked you some questions on the 3rd of May,

18 you started your testimony, you said that you were arrested on the 20th of

19 July and taken to Keraterm; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, in front of my own house. I was taken out of my own house,

21 yes.

22 Q. Yes. We're just trying to refresh memory. You also said that in

23 Keraterm you were taken to an empty room that was prepared for you and

24 250 to 350 people were put in that room; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. You were also asked, after you entered Room 3, where did you find

2 room? Where did you set up? In view of the number of people and this

3 small area, could you roughly tell us where were you?

4 A. Well, I didn't have a permanent place. I wasn't always in one and

5 the same place because the best thing was to move around because you

6 caught their attention less. But in the beginning I was in the back

7 corner, as you enter then to the right, in the corner of that dormitory.

8 Q. Does that mean that whilst you were in Room 3, you mostly spent

9 the time in the rear part of the room, the back wall facing the door?

10 A. No. That was the first place where I found some room, but then

11 from time to time, as I've said, you cannot always be in the same place

12 because sometimes they take people from one place and on another occasion

13 from another place. And we tried to guess at what they were playing or

14 perhaps, If I move over there, then I'll be lucky enough and I won't be in

15 the group that they're taking out. So we moved around the room, to the

16 left, to the right, forward, backward.

17 Q. Did you spend some time near the front door?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. And how many times was that? I mean, a day or perhaps spend the

20 night there?

21 A. Well, when we were suffocating, yes, that is where I spent most of

22 the time, and that was on the 24th. As you enter in those days, I was

23 moving from the door backward, and then from the back I moved forward to

24 the door, that is, moving to and fro because it wasn't good to sit in one

25 place because they just pick up. And it was just sheer luck which part of

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1 the room they would be picking men from. So we moved. We shifted

2 around.

3 Q. And when you say that lately -- what you said "lately." What do

4 you mean lately?

5 A. Well, I should say Thursday night, Friday, is when I was there.

6 Then on Saturday, I hid. I hid in that -- in that niche. I tried to fit

7 in there, although it was very difficult because there were very many

8 people there, because people obviously thought, Well, they won't see us as

9 we come in. At times it did help; at times it didn't.

10 Q. And again when you were -- when you testified on the 3rd of May,

11 you said that that day, on the 20th of July when you were arrested and

12 brought to Keraterm, you had no communication with other inmates in the

13 camp; is that correct?

14 A. No, that day we had no communication with them.

15 Q. Is it true that that day, none of the newly-arrived prisoners were

16 harmed?

17 A. It is true.

18 Q. And again, on the 3rd of May, you said the next morning after your

19 arrival, they took six people from Room 3 to go to work and you mentioned

20 Aliskovic, Muharem Sivac?

21 A. Aliskovic twice.

22 Q. Aliskovic twice and Muharem Sivac; is that correct?

23 A. It is.

24 Q. Is it also true that you said that you did not see them again and

25 they did not come back?

1 A. It is.

2 Q. That would then be the 21st of July, wouldn't it, if you came to

3 Keraterm on the 20th. Would that be a correct assumption?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we go into private

6 session for a moment, please.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.

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19 [Open session]

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we are back in open session.

21 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Thank you. Did Burzic then appoint him the leader of the room?

23 A. The leader? He wasn't a leader.

24 Q. When I say "the leader," I'm talking he was the point person, he

25 was the contact person. The person who would be talking to the guards.

1 A. They knew each other and he probably just told him, we did not

2 know what a leader was, what his role was in those first days until we

3 became acquainted there. After a while, we knew that when somebody was

4 called out, this person would be obligated to find him if this person

5 would not respond to a call.

6 Q. When you said that on the 21st of July those six men were taken

7 out, the two Aliskovics and Muharem Sivac and the others who never came

8 back, on the 3rd of May when answering a question by the Prosecutor, you

9 said that on that day you were taken out to the grass in front of Room 3

10 where you spent three hours on the -- in the grass with your -- lying on

11 your stomach with your hands behind your back and that Kajin was sitting

12 on the chair with a gun pointing at you and saying that if anybody would

13 move, that he would shoot him.

14 A. That was not then. That was before the cleansing or whatever they

15 were doing up there. I think that this was on the 22nd, 23rd. It wasn't

16 on the same day. This was before the cleansing. When they took us out,

17 this was around 10.00, 11.00 in the morning, and those men left around

18 noon or early afternoon. I cannot tell you the exact time when they left,

19 the exact hour.

20 But when we were taken out, this was about 10.00. I know that

21 that was approximately that time and we were there until 1.00 or 2.00 in

22 the afternoon, we were lying in the grass. And it is true what you said

23 that whoever would try to get up will never get up again. This is what

24 Kajin said.

25 Q. Is it true that you don't know the exact date of that incident

1 when you were taken out and made to lie on the grass?

2 A. That was on the 23rd. That was the day when people from Carakovo

3 were brought in. It was on the 23rd and they -- they came back earlier.

4 They beat us. And when we entered the room, that is when the men from

5 Carakovo were bought in. That was on the 23rd of July.

6 Q. Today, when the Prosecutor first asked you about this incident

7 when you were lying in the grass on your bellies, you yourself mentioned

8 the 23rd of July today; and on the 3rd of May when asked the same question

9 by the Prosecutor, it would -- when calculated from the day of your

10 arrest, it would have come to 21st of July. Without trying to explain to

11 me, can you just tell me which one is correct?

12 A. It was not the 21st of July.

13 Q. Were there other prisoners who were walking around the perimeter

14 in addition to you who were lying in the grass at that time?

15 A. I wasn't paying attention, to be honest with you. I was not

16 paying attention as to whether any of the inmates were out and about. We

17 had to quickly run out and then lie on our stomachs and line up facing the

18 room. Whether there was anybody else around, I don't know. I didn't pay

19 any attention to that.

20 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Can the usher please place on the ELMO

21 Exhibit 2F. It's a photograph of the Keraterm camp.

22 Q. The morning when you were told to come out of Room 3 and when you

23 were ordered to lie down on your stomach, can you tell me, did all

24 prisoners in Room 3 come out?

25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Can you give us an approximate number, how many men were there?

2 A. As I said, I reckoned that altogether, with the men from Carakovo

3 who arrived later, there were about 250 to 350 men, and without the men

4 from Carakovo, I again cannot give you the exact number.

5 Q. I'm not asking an exact number. Give me an approximate number.

6 A. Perhaps 200. Somewhere around there.

7 Q. That means that that morning, about 200 men were brought out of

8 the room.

9 A. Yes. Somewhere around there, as I said.

10 Q. And they were all ordered to lie down face down, that is, on their

11 bellies?

12 A. Yes, on that grass there.

13 Q. Let's just take it slowly. And in addition, because we speak the

14 same language, we can sort of interrupt each other, so try to avoid that.

15 Can you now describe to us how did they lie down in the grass; in

16 one row, in several rows?

17 A. Again, I wouldn't be able to tell you how many rows, but they lay

18 in the grass in this direction.

19 Q. Can you please tell me, from where to where did the men from

20 Room 3 lay on the grass? Can you show us the two extreme points?

21 A. Starting from the toilet and perhaps even to the pathway of

22 Room 4. I cannot tell you exactly, because I was somewhere in the

23 middle. I was approximately around here. This is where I lay. About

24 two, three metres from the walkway here, this is where I was lying. But

25 there was another row behind me.

1 Q. So let's try to sum it up. You pointed that people were lying

2 somewhere approximately from the area of the toilet all the way to the

3 Room 4?

4 A. I did not see where the first one was or the last person was

5 because it was all very fast. It was just get out, lie down, head down.

6 So I did not really pay much attention to where the first person was,

7 where the last person was, but I know that there was a row behind me

8 because I could sense the person, feel the person behind me. I could

9 almost touch him with my feet.

10 Q. From the moment when you left Room 3 and the moment you put your

11 down -- put your head down in the grass, how much time did elapse?

12 Approximately. I'm not asking you to measure the time.

13 A. That is exactly what I was going to say. But it was very fast.

14 We had to run. If the first person lay somewhere, you had to just lie

15 down right next to him. You just looked for the first open spot to lie

16 down. But how many -- how much time this took, how many minutes, that I

17 really can't tell you. It -- I don't know. It may have lasted seconds or

18 perhaps minutes. I cannot tell you how much time there was between the

19 time when the first one came out and the last one lay down on the ground.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, I'm just very concerned about the

22 amount of time that's being spent on this particular issue. I'm concerned

23 about the amount of time that we've got left, and I just wonder how much

24 detail is required for where witnesses have to lie down on the grass.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I think, Mr. Rodic, you'll be moving on?

1 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in my cross-examination,

2 this is the only area that I'm going to explore and perhaps just one more

3 area, because I think that we can test the credibility of this witness on

4 just these two areas.

5 Q. When you say that you saw Damir Dosen sitting in a chair, you said

6 that he was about 20 metres behind you.

7 A. I can even show it to you.

8 Q. Will you, please?

9 A. It was around here. Approximately somewhere around here. I

10 cannot give you the exact spot.

11 Q. In other words, the second grassy area?

12 A. Yes. Perhaps somewhere in the middle, perhaps a little bit to the

13 left or right, but -- I said approximately 20-plus metres.

14 Q. And you saw him when -- as you were going down in the grass?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, very briefly, can you tell me whether men from Room 3 were

17 coming out of that door running in order -- in other words, did -- were

18 they all sort of there -- coming out of the door together?

19 A. Whether it was one or two or three coming through the door, I

20 can't tell you that. An effort was made to get out as fast as possible.

21 Q. Had you seen Dosen ever before that situation?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And again, I'm not going to ask you to give me any exact timing,

24 but if you could just tell me when you saw him, what -- how much time did

25 you spend looking at him? A moment ago you just said that you did not

1 have much time to look around.

2 A. Yes, but when -- as you come out, you see who is out there on the

3 grass.

4 Q. So how much time?

5 A. Again --

6 Q. But if you cannot say, you cannot say.

7 A. I don't know if -- in terms of seconds or something like that.

8 Because as you come out running, we ran looking in front of us, not down.

9 Q. Very well, thank you. In -- when you were lying down, you did not

10 dare look up, move your head about?

11 A. Of course not.

12 Q. So we can say that your answer is yes?

13 A. Of course. How was I to raise my head when it was -- we were told

14 that if we did so, that we would be shot at.

15 Q. And you spent three to four hours in this position; is that

16 correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is it also correct that on that occasion, your -- you got -- your

19 forehead was burned from the sun?

20 A. It wasn't from the sun, it was from the grass. But you don't know

21 what to expect, what's going on behind you. I endeavored to move as

22 little as possible. I may have made a little depression in the ground

23 from pressing my head down, it was -- even though it was very dry.

24 Q. Can we say that you were also afraid for your life?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Did you see Dosen when he uttered this threat, when he said that

2 the -- nobody was to raise their head?

3 A. There was nobody around him and it was from his direction that the

4 voice came.

5 Q. Did you know his voice from before?

6 A. Did I know his voice? I had never seen this man before. But, I

7 don't know, a man cannot change his voice so quickly. It was his voice.

8 Q. Can we agree that you remember this incident very well precisely

9 because you were afraid for your life?

10 A. I remember him because of the beating.

11 Q. I am referring to this situation.

12 A. What do you mean did I remember his voice well?

13 Q. No, the incident that we've been referring to when all prisoners

14 were ordered out to lie in the grass. Did you -- do you remember that

15 incident? Do you have a good memory of it?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. Also during your examination-in-chief, you said that because of

18 the ugly things that you survived during Keraterm and Trnopolje, you tried

19 to suppress all these ugly memories; is that correct?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. Is it also correct that it was you who initially contacted the

22 ICTY investigators?

23 A. Well, I volunteered information.

24 Q. When was this?

25 A. Well, when it was exactly, I don't know.

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1 Q. Approximately?

2 A. 1997, approximately. 1997 to 1998.

3 Q. I'm not asking the exact time, but until you got in touch with the

4 Tribunal, did you give -- provide any information about these events to

5 anyone else?

6 A. No. Except with my family, I had no one to talk to.

7 Q. But when you contacted the Tribunal in 1997 or 1998, did you give

8 some kind of a statement to the Tribunal?

9 A. When I contacted the Tribunal -- I don't know what the statement

10 means.

11 Q. Did you sign anything?

12 A. No, I didn't sign anything until the investigators came. Then I

13 gave a statement that I signed when the investigators came to me.

14 Q. Before you gave the statement that you're referring to now, did

15 the investigators take down any notes in previous interviews?

16 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you that. Of course they wanted to

17 know with whom they were dealing. You couldn't just say, "I was there."

18 You had to know nothing in detail, but certain events you need to know.

19 And then I was told that a team of investigators would come to take a

20 statement from me. And then they came and I signed the statement. This

21 is the only document that I signed.

22 Q. So your first written statement, that is the one that was taken

23 down and signed, was in September of last year?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. In that statement, did you tell the truth and did you say

1 everything that you remembered?

2 A. What -- whatever I signed, I stand by it.

3 Q. If a moment ago we agreed that this incident with men being taken

4 out of the room and made to lie on the grass was so memorable to you, why

5 did you not mention it to the investigators in your written statement?

6 A. That was a situation that I remember because my life was

7 threatened then. Perhaps I did not say everything, but I told him about

8 the beating. For instance, this person did not beat us.

9 Q. Which man?

10 A. Kajin.

11 Q. Do you now know what you did not say to the investigators

12 regarding this incident in your written statement?

13 A. I may not have said if we raised our heads that -- that nobody

14 would get up again and perhaps that he was sitting in a chair.

15 Q. Who?

16 A. Kajin.

17 Q. And what else? Do you recall whether you had mentioned Kajin at

18 all in your statement?

19 A. I think that I did. But if I didn't --

20 Q. In respect of this situation when you were made to lie on the

21 grass.

22 A. I think I did, but I may have -- I may have omitted it. But it

23 was there.

24 Q. You also said that on the first day, you could not communicate

25 with other inmates in the camp. Can you tell me -- if you can describe

1 for me your first contact with another inmate in the camp.

2 A. You mean my first contact?

3 Q. Yes, with an inmate who was not in Room 3 but who had already been

4 in Keraterm when you arrived there.

5 A. You see, the men from Rooms 1 and 2, some of them had enough

6 courage, and they would run into the room surreptitiously, because they

7 had brothers or cousins or relatives in there. So they came in several

8 times unobserved by the guards. But that was at the time when they were

9 out and perhaps when they were going to the toilet. So they risked their

10 lives or they may have risked being killed or something.

11 And as far as contacts are concerned, how shall I put it? The

12 real contacts only happened after those massacres, the real contacts when

13 you could actually talk and things like that.

14 Q. Is it true that you learned from other inmates, those who were in

15 the Keraterm before you, did -- the names of the camp commander and

16 individual guards?

17 A. Yes. They told us who the warden was, who the guards were.

18 Q. Because you keep telling us, "They told us. They told us." If

19 you can just not interrupt me. You said, "They told us. We did." Can

20 you please describe for me who did and what did they say to you who the

21 commander was, what his name was so that we do not speak in general but

22 specifically what is your experience?

23 A. There were men who had their brothers and cousins there, and after

24 the massacres, we were able to talk. I don't know if anybody told me

25 anything in person, but I was present when other people were talking, when

1 people had to say what they knew.

2 Q. So you can't be any more specific?

3 A. You mean names? You mean names of people who came?

4 Q. The names of people and what they told you about those persons.

5 A. Well, as for the names, as far as I know, there was a Causevic

6 there, and he had a brother with us. And that was the first man who came,

7 who somehow summoned courage to come. He came from Brdo. He was captured

8 there and then taken to --

9 Q. No, no, no. Let's not go into all that. What I want to know is:

10 How did you learn that a particular Keraterm guard was called, say, Damir

11 Dosen, or something else? Wait for me to finish my question. How did you

12 learn that his name was, say, Damir Dosen, what was he doing there, what

13 was his duty? Who did you learn it from? What kind of conversation were

14 you explained that?

15 A. You ask somebody. I didn't, but somebody else did. "Whose shift

16 is this?" and then he says whose shift is that, and so on. "Whose shift

17 is about to come on?" Likewise. "Who's the warden?" or something and

18 people start talking. You even didn't have to ask. People start

19 talking. "Oh, well, this one's the warden and this one is a commander and

20 this one is this and that one is that."

21 That was after the massacre there were these contacts. "Do you

22 have something to say?" "Oh, yes. Well, beware of this one. Hide from

23 that one. Give this one a wide berth," and so on.

24 Q. And in these situations when somebody tells you, "Beware of this

25 one, give that one a wide berth," that is, somebody said you had to -- was

1 it done in the open?

2 A. Out of the question. It was all done on the sly.

3 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us when it was or when did you learn that

4 a man nicknamed Kajin -- that the name of the man nicknamed Kajin was

5 Damir Dosen. How were you told he was Kajin or were you given his full

6 name?

7 A. In Keraterm he was Kajin. In Trnopolje, Damir Dosen. But in

8 Keraterm, it was Kajin only. And then so what's his name, Damir Dosen.

9 Q. Are you aware that Kajin had a brother?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And you don't know if his brother was a guard in Keraterm?

12 A. No. Well, were there another one, he'd had another one. Banovic

13 had a brother so they were Banovic brothers.

14 Q. But are you aware that his brother is also nicknamed Kajin?

15 A. Then people would have said about his brother. I don't know about

16 that. I don't know that he was there.

17 Q. And how did you find out in Trnopolje that it was Damir Dosen?

18 A. Well, you see, when somebody says, "Well there goes Kajin." It's

19 another matter when somebody said, "This is Kajin," and if somebody points

20 at him. If it's done stealthily so that nobody sees that you are talking,

21 that is one thing. And it's a completely different matter when somebody

22 points at him because if you fear to do that and when you don't fear and

23 you point at somebody and say, well -- "His name is so and so," it was

24 impossible to say -- show with your hand this is Kajin. He is standing

25 over there.

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1 Q. Can we then agree, as for pointing at the man, when somebody wants

2 to point out a guard to you who he is and what's his name and whom you

3 should beware of, was that mostly done stealthily rather than openly?

4 A. Sir, one could see who had to say what.

5 Q. You didn't answer my question.

6 A. I'm telling you that we discuss it in hiding. We wouldn't point

7 at them but we people said, "Yes, that's Kajin."

8 Q. And tell me, during your stay in Keraterm, you mentioned to the

9 Court that there were three shifts. Could you be more specific and tell

10 us how many guards were there on a shift, as far as you could see?

11 A. How many guards? Well, there were three shifts. To give you the

12 exact number, hardly.

13 Q. Could you then give us the approximate number of guards on a

14 shift?

15 A. 15, 20, give or take a few. Perhaps more, perhaps less.

16 Q. Very well, thank you. So whilst you were there and when you

17 looked around the compound, could you tell us if those guards, in the view

18 of your military experience, did those guards stand at their guard posts

19 or did they move around freely around the compound?

20 A. Now, what is a guard post? That is a question.

21 Q. Well, were there any guard posts?

22 A. There was this hut there.

23 Q. And who was in that hut?

24 A. Well, there were some at the entrance, at the entrance into

25 Keraterm next to the hut. But did they stand to attention there, did they

1 stand there quietly? No, they didn't. They -- we were all in their field

2 of vision. They could all keep an eye on us from that hut and around.

3 Q. Were all the guards dressed identically?

4 A. Well, it depended. Kajin, for instance, had a short-sleeved green

5 T-shirt. Was it a T-shirt or was it a vest, but it was summer clothes.

6 Some wore camouflage uniforms, others wore normal uniforms. Now, what's

7 normal, I mean the one of the Yugoslav Peoples' Army. So it depended on

8 who had what uniform. I didn't really pay much attention who wore what.

9 I'm saying T-shirt, well, not a green one, really, an army T-shirt, short

10 sleeves and a small vest. Now, was it a bulletproof one, a kind of a flak

11 jacket or something, but it was sort of short.

12 Q. Right. Now, when you mentioned Trnopolje, is it true that it was

13 in Trnopolje that you found out that Kajin was Dosen?

14 A. His name is Damir Dosen.

15 Q. And you found that out in Trnopolje?

16 A. Yes. Because then we had more time to talk like this, even though

17 it wasn't much of a conversation either.

18 Q. Is it true that you learned aloud from other inmates in Trnopolje?

19 A. In Keraterm, we could not say, "Well, this is his name and this is

20 that name." It was only, "Well, this one's Kajin," or something so that

21 most of the names we learned in Trnopolje.

22 Q. In view of what you went through in Keraterm, did you suffer any

23 consequences to your health?

24 A. I was examined by Medecins Sans Frontieres who came to Karlovac.

25 I did have some problems with my back and I'd been beaten shortly before

1 that, and I was suffering some pain. So they said they would examine me

2 and I agreed. They did, yes, there was some bruises but I, to this day,

3 have some problems with my back and since -- between July and September,

4 that is the time when I have back pain and I cannot move for about four or

5 five days until the injections take effect.

6 I was told that I have some points on my back, and it seems that

7 it is where those points show that that is where it hurts me most.

8 Q. But apart from those health complaints, you have no other

9 complaints?

10 A. Other complaints?

11 Q. I mean what you could relate to that period you spent in Keraterm

12 as an effect.

13 A. Well, as a consequence of that, I could not bear watching a

14 chicken being slaughtered. Now I can watch, yes, I can see car crashes or

15 something. But I'd love to be able to cry my heart out some day. I just

16 can't. I don't know. I'd like to be able to do that.

17 Q. Very well. Only a few more questions.

18 After the massacre, in the morning when you were told to take the

19 bodies out of the room, is it true that Kondic told Sejfo Avdic to do

20 that?

21 A. Yes. He told him, "You come here. And you know other men, so

22 take them and bring those people out."

23 Q. And in the end, in conclusion, let me ask you in relation to the

24 situation when you said you saw Kajin sitting in a chair, you said he was

25 drinking beer?

1 A. Well, he had a bottle in his hand. He had a rifle. As far as I

2 know about these things, it is a PAP rifle and that is a semiautomatic

3 rifle. As far as I can remember, it could have been an automatic one,

4 too, but as far as I can remember, that's what it looked like to me,

5 because I had also served in the Yugoslav People's Army.

6 Q. Is there a noticeable difference between the PAP and AP? That is

7 an automatic and semiautomatic rifle?

8 A. Well, if you only cast a look, you may make a mistake, but if you

9 have a good look at them, you can tell them one from the other.

10 Q. But was it just a quick look at them?

11 A. Whether he had a PAP or an automatic rifle --

12 Q. Well, if you don't know which rifle he did, did you just cast a

13 look and couldn't really be sure which rifle was it?

14 A. Well, I cannot say that I really focused on the rifle, because I

15 mostly looked in his direction and there was this rifle. And if it's

16 turned to you, you don't look at its make, you look whether it's going to

17 fire at you.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic.

19 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm about to finish, Your

20 Honour. Just one question more.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. So in the ends, we can agree that in Trnopolje -- it was in

24 Trnopolje that you learned Kajin's name was Dosen, but you did not see him

25 there?

1 A. I did see him there. I did see him there. Only what the man who

2 was Kajin before now became Damir Dosen. I saw him in Keraterm. I didn't

3 see him in Trnopolje.

4 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'm

5 finished.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic, it's in relation to the last question

7 that I wanted to raise the matter with you of putting your case clearly to

8 the witness, because it hasn't come across very clearly exactly what your

9 case is, whether you're saying that the witness was not a participant in

10 the incident that took place on the grass or whether you're saying that he

11 didn't see Kajin there that day or he didn't hear Kajin speak. I think

12 you should put to him very clearly what your case is.

13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] My last question was: Is it true that

14 the witness did not see Kajin in Trnopolje, and that that was only where

15 he found out that that man nicknamed Kajin was actually called Damir

16 Dosen? That was my last question.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, then, Mr. Rodic. Thank you.

18 Sir Ivan. We are just about at the time when we take a break, so

19 we'll take the break now and resume at 4.00.

20 Witness N, I remind you, during the adjournment you are not to

21 discuss your evidence with anyone, including the Prosecution. We'll

22 resume at --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for His Honour.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll resume at 4.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

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1 --- On resuming at 4.04 p.m.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sir Ivan, we'll break at a few minutes before

3 5.00.

4 MR. LAWRENCE: Sorry?

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a few minutes before 5.00.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Lawrence:

7 Q. Witness N, please do not think that in the questions I'm going to

8 ask you I have no sympathy with the misery that you suffered at Keraterm.

9 Would you accept that?

10 A. Very well.

11 Q. And would you also accept that it would be terrible to identify

12 the wrong person as having done some terrible deed or been present during

13 some terrible deed if he wasn't? Will you accept that?

14 A. Of course.

15 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you about the evidence you've given

16 about a man you call Kolundzija; all right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And somebody's told you also, have they, that Kolundzija is called

19 Kole, his nickname is Kole?

20 A. Kole.

21 Q. Forgive me. Now, you saw the man you've called Kolundzija,

22 according to your evidence, on three occasions; is that right? First, on

23 the 23rd of July, that's the day before the Room 3 massacre when he was

24 present when a man called Banovic did terrible things.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Secondly, the night after the massacre, on the 25th of July, which

2 was when the naked man was taken out.

3 A. Yes. That is when he was taken out.

4 Q. And the third occasion was the next day, which was the 26th of

5 July. Those are the three occasions when you talk about a man called

6 Kolundzija; is that right?

7 A. I also mentioned him when I was beaten.

8 Q. What date was that?

9 A. What date? We were among the last to have been beaten. I think

10 that the two of us were the last to be beaten. But what date that was,

11 three days before the camp was closed, or three nights.

12 Q. That was the last day that I've asked you about, that's the 26th

13 of July, when the beatings took place. And that was an occasion when you

14 say that Mr. Kolundzija was there. That's the third occasion, is it not?

15 A. I was not specific. I said three times, maybe more, maybe less.

16 It wasn't less certainly, but how many times I saw him, how I saw him,

17 whether that was three times during a single day.

18 Q. Well, you've given evidence, Witness N, about three occasions when

19 you saw the man you call Mr. Kolundzija and I've just been over them.

20 There aren't any other occasions when you give evidence about him being

21 present when something bad happened. There are no other occasions, are

22 there?

23 A. It depends on what you say bad things. Bad things were when we

24 were beaten, when I was beaten, when we were taken out.

25 Q. That was the 26th, the day after the massacre?

1 A. There were occasions when people were taken out individually.

2 Dervis Aliskovic and I were taken out together and beaten up. That was

3 also after the massacre. There were situations when he came, but what is

4 most memorable is the beating and the participation in the massacre and my

5 beating the second night.

6 Q. Yes. Those three occasions that you've told us about in evidence

7 are the three occasions at which Mr. Kolundzija was present at or in some

8 way a party to what went on that was awful. That's your evidence, isn't

9 it?

10 A. Those three occasions he was the commander of the guard. Now,

11 whether he was there more, but on those three occasions, and I'm also -- I

12 also mentioned the occasion when Dervis Aliskovic and I were beaten, that

13 may have been the fourth instance. But one could see him during the day.

14 But this is what I remember the most, those three occasions.

15 Q. Yes. The ones you can be sure about seeing that man?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. Well, my case is that the man you saw on those

18 occasions is not correctly called Kolundzija; do you understand? Someone

19 has made a mistake in calling that man Kolundzija; do you understand

20 that?

21 A. That is what you say.

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. Somebody made a mistake.

24 Q. Yes. I have to put my case to you, do you understand, Witness N,

25 as the Learned Judge has just said, all right, so far. Now, you've told

1 us that when you arrived, Room 3 was cleared for you, that is, for the

2 inmates who went into Room 3; is that right?

3 A. Yes, that is right. It was empty. Whether it was for us, but

4 yes, it was for us.

5 Q. None of the occupants of Room 3 had been in the camp before the

6 20th of July; is that right?

7 A. Yes, that is correct. I believe that it is correct because I

8 wasn't the first one to enter but the room had been empty and as I stated

9 here, I was probably among the last ones who entered and the room had been

10 empty. Everything was fresh.

11 Q. You said -- the answer to my question is yes.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. So none of the inmates that went in with you would

14 have known who the guard Kolundzija was.

15 A. No, we did not know him. I don't know whether anybody else had

16 known him but I did not know him.

17 Q. And you were not allowed to have contact with the prisoners in any

18 other rooms; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, during those first days.

20 Q. And you only spoke to prisoners who had been on the camp before

21 you arrived on the 20th of July after the massacres; is that correct?

22 A. That was a little closer contact. But as I said, some who had

23 summoned courage had come in who had some relatives there and who were

24 brave enough to enter. But the real, real conversations only took place

25 after the massacres.

1 Q. After the massacres. So that's after the 26th of July. Well,

2 after the massacre on the 24th and then the subsequent massacre, as you've

3 referred to it, on the 25th.

4 A. Yes, Friday and Saturday.

5 Q. Thank you. And that's when you learnt the names of the guard

6 commanders or the shift leaders?

7 A. It was known that Kole's shift was coming and then Kajin's and

8 then Fustar's, and then after that it wasn't very interesting which shift

9 was on, because we would get the same every night. It held some interest

10 only in the first days.

11 Q. Witness N, please give me a specific answer to my specific

12 question or I won't finish this afternoon. All right.

13 I think you've already said in evidence that you only learnt the

14 names of the shift commanders after the massacres, that is, after the 24th

15 and 25th of July. Is that right or wrong?

16 A. It is correct that we learned the names.

17 Q. Thank you. And that was by talking to inmates, detainees,

18 prisoners?

19 A. I did not talk to them, but others did. But I was present during

20 those conversations and this is how one would hear about it. But these

21 were brief conversations.

22 Q. Now, please concentrate carefully on what I'm asking you next.

23 When you lay out on your bellies and the incident took place with Banovic

24 hitting and stabbing, was that incident outside or inside Room 3? Were

25 those incidents outside or inside Room 3?

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1 A. Outside Room 3.

2 Q. Can you remember whether the people or the person who told you

3 that the man was called Kolundzija was an eyewitness to that or not?

4 A. I did not understand your question now.

5 Q. You told us that you only learnt the names of the guard commanders

6 after the massacres. Am I right?

7 A. That is correct.

8 Q. One incident was the attack outside Room 3 on the 23rd of July.

9 All right? Another incident was when the man you say was Kolundzija came

10 into Room 3 and said something or did something with regard to the naked

11 man. That was inside Room 3; is that right?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. And the last occasion, on the 26th when you were beaten, were you

14 beaten inside Room 3 or outside Room 3 when Kolundzija was there, the man

15 called Kolundzija was there?

16 A. On the 26th?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. Was he there? I know that --

19 Q. No, no. I've accepted -- I'm not challenging that the man you

20 call Kolundzija was there on that third occasion. What I'm asking you

21 is: Did -- was he there inside Room 3 when that happened or somewhere

22 else?

23 A. No. He entered through the door.

24 Q. Into Room 3. So whoever it was that spoke about the second and

25 the third of those two events which happened in Room 3 and said that that

1 man was called Kolundzija was not in Room 3 at the time the event

2 happened?

3 A. Yes, but I remember this man, the man who entered through the

4 door.

5 Q. Yes. Yes. I understand that.

6 A. And if you connect the incident and the name, that is -- you link

7 those two up.

8 Q. Yes. But please follow me. You've told us that it was only after

9 the massacres on the 24th and the 25th that somebody told you or somebody

10 said in your presence and you learnt that the man you're referring to was

11 called Kolundzija. Yes?

12 A. That night, not only did I learn who he was --

13 Q. Yes or no, please, otherwise we'll be here for --

14 A. Nobody said, "This is Kolundzija." Nobody said that. Later on

15 when I saw the man and later on I linked those two up.

16 Q. That's right. Later on somebody refers to the man you describe as

17 being called Kolundzija.

18 A. Yes. He said that it was Kolundzija and then I connected that

19 incident with that name.

20 Q. And the man who told you that the man was called Kolundzija wasn't

21 somebody from Room 3, was it?

22 A. We learned his name from other --

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. -- inmates. And whether anybody knew him -- I didn't ask anybody

25 "Do you know Kolundzija? Do you know Sikirica? Do you know Kajin?" I

1 didn't ask those questions.

2 Q. So since the two events that I've asked you about took place in

3 Room 3, it follows, does it not, that the person who says -- who said,

4 "The man you are describing," or whatever he said, "is called

5 Kolundzija," was not present when either of those events took place in

6 Room 3?

7 A. No, he wasn't present there and I didn't ask who that man was.

8 Q. So this is not somebody saying, "I saw the man do that. He is

9 called Kolundzija," is it?

10 A. There were people who knew him in there, but I didn't ask them,

11 "Do you know this man?" But I learned from other inmates. But some may

12 have known him.

13 Q. Please concentrate. I know it's difficult. I know it's

14 difficult, but please try a little bit harder to help. The person who

15 said that the man who did those two -- who was present at those two events

16 on the 25th and 26th of July after the Room 3 massacre, that person was

17 not present at either of those two events.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. Do you know the name of the person who said that

20 the -- this man was called Kolundzija? Can you give us the name of the

21 person who said that in your presence?

22 A. I said that personally I was not told this. I was listening in on

23 conversations and I've -- as I said, and I've repeated this about ten

24 times, that there were people who had relatives in there who came in to

25 talk to their relatives and I was present to those conversations. So for

1 instance, there was a man called Causevic who spoke to his cousin, and I

2 listened in. It wasn't that I was doing it surreptitiously.

3 Q. No. No. Please don't think I'm being critical. But sometimes if

4 you overhear a conversation, you get the wrong end of the stick. Is that

5 a phrase that exists in your part of the world? Do you know what I mean

6 by "getting the wrong end of the stick"? If you come in in the middle of

7 a conversation, you may get what is being said wrong. Do you understand

8 that?

9 A. I understand what you're trying to say but you need to understand

10 me too. I heard who was who and what was what in that camp because this

11 man, brother of Causevic, asked, "Who is this? Who is that? Who is the

12 commander?" I didn't sit down with them and ask who is who there but I

13 just overheard. I heard stories and this is how we connected up these

14 shifts and things like that.

15 Q. Do you accept that if you overhear somebody's conversation as

16 opposed to somebody directly answering your question, there is more

17 likelihood that one gets it wrong? Everybody, not just you, everybody.

18 A. Yes. If they come in midway through the conversation. But if

19 they're there from the beginning, that cannot happen.

20 Q. Were you there from the beginning of the conversation?

21 A. When he came to visit his brother, I was nearby.

22 Q. That's not an answer to the question, Witness N.

23 A. That means that I was there.

24 Q. Well --

25 A. From the start.

1 Q. [Previous translation continues]... from the start.

2 A. Yes. A man came.

3 Q. And who was this man who identifies the man whom you call

4 Kolundzija by that name? What is his name?

5 A. His last name is Causevic. I cannot recall his first name right

6 now but I know that they were the Causevic family and they were about 1.5,

7 2 kilometres from my house. His house was about 1.5 kilometres from

8 mine. I knew both him and his brother.

9 Q. Was he in Room 3?

10 A. No, he was in another room. I don't know whether it was in Room 1

11 or Room 2. I cannot tell you exactly now. And his brother was with us in

12 Room 3.

13 Q. So how is it you linked up the person with the name Kolundzija?

14 Did you describe to him the man or did you say he was a shift commander?

15 How did you get this gentleman to make you think that that man was called

16 Kolundzija?

17 A. He asked a man who was there last night whose shift was it and he

18 would tell him it was Kolundzija's, or Kajin's, or Fustar's. If -- it

19 would be just as you -- if you asked whose shift was that day, whose shift

20 was on another day. This is how it was, who was who. And they had had

21 enough time to figure out who was the commander and who were the guard

22 commanders.

23 Q. So do I understand you to say that you formed the view that the

24 man that behaved in this way on those three incidents was called

25 Kolundzija because he was -- a man called Kolundzija was the shift

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1 commander on the night of the 25th of July when the naked man was taken

2 out and there was shooting. Is that what you're telling us?

3 A. I was also trying to say that when somebody was being beaten, and

4 if you said, "Stop," it would stop. So I just connected details and

5 incidents.

6 Q. Well, firstly answer my first question. Did you form the view

7 that Kolundzija was the name of the man who was the shift commander on the

8 25th of July when the naked man was taken out? Is that the reason why you

9 formed that view?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And is another reason why you formed that view was because you

12 were saying that there was a shift commander who was trying to stop the

13 beating by Banovic and somebody said, "That would be Kolundzija"?

14 A. No. No. No. No.

15 Q. All right. Well, then what did you mean? What did you mean when

16 you said just now --

17 A. You see, when someone beats you and another one is nearby, then

18 you remember him well. And you just remember well when that other man

19 says to the one who is beating you, "Stop." Of course, the one who sticks

20 in your memory best is the one who beat you.

21 Q. But the one who said it was Kolundzija was not present at any of

22 those events, was he?

23 A. You see, I'm telling you that that was not the only case, that

24 Causevic. There were more people who knew them, except that I didn't ask

25 them, "Well, do you know this man or don't you know this man?" What I

1 said was that that day, when Kole's shift -- and usually people used the

2 nickname Kole, they didn't refer to him Kolundzija. They said "Kole."

3 They said, "Kole's shift."

4 Q. Can you explain to me what you just meant when you said, "I was

5 also trying to say that when somebody was being beaten and if you said

6 'Stop' it would stop. So I just connected details and incidents." What

7 did you mean when you said that?

8 A. When they beat us and when he told Banovic, "If you do this once

9 again, you're out," then, you see, it means that that man is a commander.

10 He did not beat. He walked around. I didn't see Kolundzija beat, but he

11 walked around and he was present.

12 Q. And that was the shift commander that you're trying to describe

13 who had Banovic under his command?

14 A. Whether Banovic was under him or whether he was one of Kajin's

15 men, it didn't really matter, you know, who was under whom.

16 Q. It does matter. It matters very much, Witness N. And can I just

17 remind you that you agreed with me that it would be terrible if the wrong

18 name was given to the person.

19 Now, what you are describing --

20 A. Of course.

21 Q. -- is the behaviour of a shift commander on a shift where Banovic

22 was a guard, are you not?

23 A. I do not know if Banovic was one of guards under him, but I know

24 that he was present there, and I know when he told Banovic to stop.

25 Q. Did it --

1 A. And that Banovic did not repeat what he was doing. Now, whether

2 he was present, whether he was under Kolundzija or somebody else or

3 whether he was on his own, that is something I don't know.

4 Q. Did it appear to you, and was this the reason why you came to the

5 conclusion that you did that the man's name was Kolundzija, did it appear

6 to you that Banovic was a guard under shift commander Kolundzija?

7 A. Nothing appeared to me. Nothing appeared to me that he was the

8 commander. People knew that he was the commander.

9 Q. You just told us that you came to the conclusion you did because

10 the man you were describing was a shift commander. Did you not just say

11 that?

12 A. What I said was during that beating it was -- there was Kajin's

13 shift. Now, whether Banovic was under him or whether he was under

14 Kolundzija, I don't know. Maybe he simply joined that group, Kolundzija's

15 group. I don't know. But when this one told him to stop, then he did

16 stop. And I don't know. If I told my boss stop, whether my boss stops,

17 but my boss told me to stop, then I would stop.

18 Q. But you're not suggesting, Witness N, that the two shifts are on

19 at the same time, are you? Kajin's shift with Banovic and Kolundzija's

20 shift with Banovic, they're not on at the same time, are they?

21 A. No, they were not on on the -- at the same time. There was

22 Kajin's shift.

23 Q. Precisely. And so what you're saying is that Banovic appeared to

24 be behaving as he did and accepting the order of Kolundzija, who at that

25 time appeared to be the shift commander.

1 A. Not then only. He accepted that.

2 Q. At that incident, it may have been other times as well, but at

3 that incident, that one incident about which you've given evidence, are

4 you not saying that Banovic accepted the order of the man who appeared to

5 be the shift commander?

6 A. Yes. I said that he left that man alone.

7 Q. Yes. And that was on the night of the 25th of July.

8 A. When Fazlic was killed?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. No, it wasn't on the 25th of July. Fazlic wasn't killed on the

11 25th of July. He was killed before that.

12 Q. When do you say he was killed?

13 A. He was killed whilst we were lying on the grass, which could have

14 been around the 23rd, as we lay on the grass.

15 Q. I may have the wrong name. Forgive me. It may be entirely my

16 fault. I said yes when you gave the name. What I meant was the man who

17 was naked, the man who was naked.

18 A. That was on the second night.

19 Q. That's right. That was on the 25th of July. Thank you.

20 A. Saturday.

21 Q. All right. Now, just help me, if you will, about this: You had

22 never seen the man you call Kolundzija before you arrived at the camp; is

23 that right?

24 A. It is.

25 Q. So when you first knew him, you didn't know who he was?

1 A. I didn't, no.

2 Q. And you arrived in the afternoon of the 20th of the July?

3 A. Thereabouts, yes, in the afternoon.

4 Q. You never suggested that you saw the man you call Kolundzija on

5 that day, so can we take it that you have no memory of seeing him on that

6 day?

7 A. That day? On the 20th of July? No, I don't remember seeing him.

8 Q. Did you see him the next day, the 21st of July, as far as you can

9 remember?

10 A. On the 21st of July when these people were taken, I don't think it

11 was his shift. Whether they came at night, I don't know. I did not see

12 them. I didn't see them during the day there. Whether they came on at

13 night, I can't tell you. Because at that time, we still did not know who

14 was coming on and when and why.

15 Q. [Previous translation continues]... you don't think you saw him on

16 the 22nd?

17 A. I am not claiming that I saw him then.

18 Q. And does the same hold true of the 22nd, that you've no reason for

19 saying that you saw him on that date either?

20 A. 22nd. On the 22nd of July, that is when I saw him.

21 Q. If I help you while you're thinking, you have never suggested that

22 you saw the man you call Kolundzija before the 23rd, which was when you

23 were all forced to lie on your bellies outside Room 3. You've never

24 suggested that in the statements that you've made to the Prosecutors. So

25 can we take it that on the 22nd as well, you have no recollection of

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1 seeing the man you call Kolundzija?

2 A. I said that -- I saw him on the occasions that stuck in my memory.

3 Q. And the first occasion --

4 A. Those incidents that happened.

5 Q. Yes. And the first occasion then when you saw the man you say was

6 Kolundzija was on the 23rd of July, three days after you arrived at

7 Keraterm.

8 A. I -- I saw him there then. Perhaps he was there before that but I

9 cannot say about that. But I, with my own eyes ...

10 Q. And the next -- the next day was the massacre, the terrible

11 massacre in Room 3, the 24th of July. And you're not suggesting that you

12 saw him on that occasion either, are you?

13 A. On the 24th of July, on Friday, we didn't know who is outside or

14 what is going on outside. I didn't know that and others, of course, I

15 cannot speak for them, but I do not know who was outside or what was going

16 on outside.

17 Q. And I think you said in your statement to the Prosecutor that, "I

18 did not see him that night." Is that right?

19 A. I did not see him that night. I did not see him.

20 Q. So you didn't see him on the 21st -- the 20th, the 21st or the

21 22nd. You saw him on the 23rd. You didn't see him on the 24th. You saw

22 him the second time on the 25th, which was the occasion I was asking you

23 about with the naked man; is that what you're telling us?

24 A. Perhaps he was there. I'm only telling you when I saw him

25 personally.

1 Q. I'm only interested in what you saw.

2 A. Yes. As far as -- yes, as far as I'm concerned, that is correct.

3 Q. And you never saw him the next day, the 26th of July, that was

4 when you were beaten. All right?

5 A. 26th of July, was it then that they beat me? I can't really tell

6 you if it was the 26th when they took me out, me and Aliskovic. It wasn't

7 the 26th of July.

8 Q. It was or it wasn't?

9 A. No, it was not the 26th of July. I never said it was the 26th of

10 July.

11 Q. Well, you did, in effect -- I don't know -- is it the practice to

12 give the witness his statement?

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, I think it's simply if you read from it.

14 MR. LAWRENCE: It would certainly be time consuming.

15 Q. So can I just take you through the statement you made to the

16 Prosecutor, all right? And the Prosecutor will correct me if I say

17 anything that's wrong. All right? Are you feeling okay?

18 We're agreed that it was the night after the Room 3 massacre, the

19 25th of July, that 15 prisoners were taken out and the incident occurred

20 with the naked man. We're agreed on that, are we not?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Yes. You go on in your statement to say, "The next day, we were

23 allowed outside, beatings still took place."

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you describe your own beating. All right? Now --

1 A. What I said, one night I was taken out too. Aliskovic, Dervis

2 Aliskovic and I were then taken out.

3 Q. Yes. And was the day the next day?

4 A. The night-time. It was night-time. The next day, no.

5 Q. It was the night-time of the next day or not?

6 A. Whether it was exactly the same day, 25th, 26th -- 26th.

7 Q. You said next day in your statement, that is the next day after

8 the naked man incident. Perhaps you meant the same day, it doesn't matter

9 to me. I just want the fact. You said the next day, which is why I'm

10 saying the 26th, but if you're not happy with that ...

11 A. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Because the next day, yes, people

12 were being taken out and beaten. But when I was taken out, it was -- we

13 were the last ones to be taken out. That was because three days before

14 the camp was closed down, a new warden came, and we were the last ones to

15 be taken out.

16 Q. [Previous translation continues]... the day you were interrogated,

17 do you remember what day that was?

18 A. When I was interrogated?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. Oh, no. I can't give you the date, no.

21 Q. I asked because it might help because you say, "The next day I was

22 interrogated." Does that help you to remember whether it was the 25th or

23 the 26th that you were beaten and Kolundzija was there?

24 A. It couldn't be the 26th.

25 Q. So it --

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Might I --

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Might I interrupt, Your Honours, to suggest that

4 perhaps it might be fairest for the Court to follow along in this

5 statement that my friend is putting to the witness. There are extra

6 copies available. I think it may be of assistance.

7 MR. LAWRENCE: Thank you. I am obliged.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sure counsel has it. And I believe my learned

10 friend is at page 8.

11 MR. LAWRENCE: Indeed. And I draw the Court's attention

12 respectively to "... that night 15 prisoners..." at the bottom of page 7,

13 which the witness has said was on the 25th of July.

14 Over the page, second paragraph: "The next day we were allowed

15 outside. Beatings still took place," which he is now saying may not have

16 been the 26th but it may have been the 25th. And three or four paragraphs

17 down: "The next day I was interrogated."

18 Q. Can we agree about this, because I wasn't there and I am dependent

19 upon you for your recollection, Witness N, that whether the beating took

20 place when Kolundzija was there was the 26th at night or the 25th at night

21 on the same night as the naked man, it could not have happened earlier

22 than the 25th?

23 A. It couldn't, no. It didn't happen before that. It happened

24 afterwards, after the massacre that I was interrogated. And again after

25 the beating I was interrogated too. That is, after the massacre I was

1 taken out, called out after the massacre, and then whether it was the 26th

2 or the 27th. But after the beating, after I was taken out and beaten, it

3 was the next day after that that I was interrogated. That is what I

4 said. They took me for interrogation.

5 Q. So it comes to this: That you saw Kolundzija, in the

6 circumstances which you've described, on only three occasions after the --

7 your arrival at the camp on the 20th of July.

8 A. Those three I remember.

9 Q. And after those three occasions, you don't remember seeing him

10 again?

11 A. The last few days, how many I don't know, but no, I did not see

12 him.

13 Q. And I won't go through again the circumstances in which you say

14 you came to form the conclusion that that man was Kolundzija, was called

15 Kolundzija.

16 MR. LAWRENCE: I want to go on to some other aspects of this. I'm

17 conscious of the fact that the Court said that it would rise. I am

18 personally disappointed that I wasn't able to finish, but I can't honestly

19 say, at the speed that I have been able to go in this cross-examination, I

20 will finish in the next five to ten minutes.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. We'll take the adjournment now.

22 MR. LAWRENCE: I apologise to the Court. I tried to do my best.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We'll adjourn until tomorrow at 9.30. I

24 remind you, Witness N, not to discuss your evidence with anybody,

25 including the members of the Prosecution team. 9.30 tomorrow morning.

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.55 p.m.,

2 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 17th day

3 of May, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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