Page 3248
1 Monday, 21 May 2001
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly, have you completed your
7 examination-in-chief?
8 MS. BALY: No, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. Please go ahead.
10 MS. BALY: Thank you, Your Honour
11 WITNESS: WITNESS Q [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Examined by Ms. Baly: [Continued]
14 Q. Now, on Friday last week you were giving some evidence about the
15 Room 3 massacre. You said that shooting had been intermittent and that
16 you thought that fragmentation ammunition was used. Witness Q, can you
17 tell the Court, please, what fragmentation ammunition is and how you
18 formed the view that it was being used during the massacre.
19 A. I concluded that it was the fragmentation ammunition because in
20 the morning, I found my brother in front of the room, hit, outside, in
21 front of the door. And, well, that kind of injury on the head could only
22 be caused by fragmentation ammunition.
23 Q. What exactly is fragmentation ammunition?
24 A. Well, theoretically it is ammunition which is prohibited by the
25 Geneva Convention and very dangerous because the charge has added
Page 3249
1 explosives, and at the moment of contact with a solid body, it bursts.
2 Q. Now, during the firing, whereabouts were you in Room 3?
3 A. I was beneath the window, and there were radiators next to me.
4 Q. In Room 3, was there a toilet?
5 A. No, there wasn't a toilet.
6 Q. Was there a toilet close by Room 3?
7 A. As you entered the room, to the left there was something that
8 looked like a wash basin to wash hands or something.
9 Q. Now, you said earlier, that is, on Friday, that the shooting
10 lasted until dawn. After the shooting finished, what happened to the
11 prisoners in Room 3, those who were not dead or injured?
12 A. Oh, well, when the morning came, I couldn't believe that I had not
13 been even hit. There were many dead and wounded around me. Those who
14 were -- who had been badly frightened were lost. All the footwear were
15 all scattered around and clothes. It was at the door where most of the
16 dead and wounded were. A square in front of the door, a square of the --
17 a square metre of plate had been broken down, and in front of the door, I
18 first saw my brother who was lying face down and the back of his head was
19 missing. I recognised him by the shirt and his trousers and his shoes.
20 And then beyond him I saw a very large, very large number of dead
21 on the pista and in the room. I did not count them, but when they were
22 all taken away, when it was cleaned, we were not left many in the room.
23 Very few.
24 Q. What happened to those -- the bodies of those who had been killed?
25 A. They requested that we pass the bodies out through that plate
Page 3250
1 opening. They even wouldn't -- they wouldn't even open the door. So we
2 passed those bodies out, and then they told us that we should also get the
3 wounded out. And a few people, those who were not lethally wounded
4 wounded, who had only received scratches, so they also left.
5 And I saw how they put them in a cart, in a rubbish cart, the ones
6 that workers -- the street cleaners use in our town. We call it a
7 Japanese cart. And they were loading the three or four men to a cart and
8 would move. And about 50 metres from the room there was a lorry, a
9 trailer with up to 50 tonne carrying capacity, and they opened the canvas
10 and then threw in men like logs into that trailer. And after that they
11 lowered the canvas, and all those wounded who worked there, also made them
12 climb this lorry.
13 Q. Witness Q, you said that the room was cleaned. How was that done
14 and when was that done?
15 A. We were made to come out, and then it was cleaned. And they took
16 away all the clothes, from leather jackets -- they took the leather
17 jackets and put them on a canvas, and they were never returned. They
18 did -- they were not only into killing, they were also into stealing.
19 Q. Now, you said that after the room was cleaned you were taken back
20 to the room and that there were very few of you left. Just, if you could,
21 give an estimate of how many were in fact left in Room 3 after the
22 massacre.
23 A. About one-third, and the room was crowded before that. They knew
24 the exact number, how many people there were, how many were killed.
25 Q. Now, on the day after the massacre, on the morning after the
Page 3251
1 massacre, did something happen to some of the remaining prisoners in Room
2 3?
3 A. Well, even the first night when we arrived there, they took away
4 some and brought in others. They took away some, and those never
5 returned. I know some of them, and I never heard again that anybody had
6 seen them again.
7 After the butchery, a commission came, but they only cast a look
8 around and left. They took no notes, nothing. I even knew one of them.
9 I believe he was an inspector, but he only looked around, and they made no
10 investigation or anything.
11 Q. After the massacre, the day after the massacre, did something
12 happen to some of the prisoners who had been left in Room 3?
13 A. Some were completely lost. Others were taken away again. The
14 next morning, they once again shot 20 people dead. Well, perhaps not
15 exactly 20, but I think it was 20, right in front of the room, outside in
16 front of the room, on the pista.
17 Q. And how did that take place? Can you just describe what happened
18 before those people were shot?
19 A. Well, they said, I suppose so as to justify their killing, they
20 said that one had escaped. Now, I, of course, don't know if it's true or
21 not. Allegedly, if anyone tried to escape, that he would be killed.
22 Q. And who was it that said that?
23 A. I don't know who said it. We heard a voice outside. Well, it
24 must have been a shift commander or one of the guards.
25 Q. Now, when those 20 or so were shot, where were you?
Page 3252
1 A. I was in this small area which is an area which is behind the
2 corner where we could wash our hands and the like. In front of me was my
3 fellow worker who happened to peep out to see who was it that was calling
4 at the door, and he was the last one.
5 Q. And who was that person, that is, your fellow worker?
6 A. It was Adem Habibovic, and I never saw him again.
7 Q. Now, Witness Q, were you able to see these 20 or so prisoners
8 being shot, or did you just hear it from where you were in Room 3?
9 A. We could not see anything because I suppose if one tried to see,
10 he'd also be hit. But they were taken out, and when they had their
11 fill -- we could hear bursts of fire aimed at people, and afterwards one
12 of the responsible, one called here -- one shot fired at the heads so as
13 to make sure that ...
14 Q. You referred earlier in your evidence to a butchery commission.
15 What is a butchery -- or what was this butchery commission to which you
16 referred, and when did it come to the camp?
17 A. In the morning following the first chaos.
18 Q. By the first chaos, do you mean the massacre, the first massacre
19 that took place in Room 3?
20 A. Yes. Yes. That's it. The first butchery.
21 Q. And what was this commission? What was it comprised of and what
22 did it do when it came to the camp?
23 A. Nothing. Since that door was all perforated by bullets and
24 fragments, one could see how they came that morning, cast a look around
25 and they must have also been flabbergasted by what had happened. They
Page 3253
1 could not believe it but then they ascertained that that was true indeed,
2 and they did nothing else.
3 Q. Who were these people and how many of them were there?
4 A. Well, I did not count them but one of them, I think he was the
5 boss and I knew him. I think he was somebody from the police, an
6 inspector, I guess.
7 Q. Now, you referred on Friday to this person Kole who was a shift
8 commander in the camp.
9 A. Yes. At night before the massacre, because that night they took
10 away -- they were taking away very many people, groups of 10 or 15,
11 depends, and they never came back. And then that night, I told my
12 neighbour, "I think that tonight we'll fare worse." I meant that night.
13 I didn't know. It was only a guess. And my neighbour told me, and he's
14 Refik Behlic said, "There is no need to fear because allegedly, the
15 commander is very good." And he survived too. And in the morning, I told
16 him, "There's your Kole. Look what he did." He couldn't even believe
17 that he had survived all that.
18 Q. What was it that your neighbour had told you in -- in response to
19 your saying, "I think that tonight we'll feel better."
20 A. No. No. No. I said -- I said, "I don't know what will happen
21 tonight, something bad is going to happen tonight." There was something
22 in the air, some tension or something. But he learned from somebody that
23 commander -- that Kole would be the commander that night. Perhaps he knew
24 Kole. I didn't know him. So that when he said that, I somehow felt
25 better, but then things turned out to be much worse.
Page 3254
1 Q. Now, Witness Q, I want to take you, please, to the last day before
2 the camp closed. On that day, was there a new commander in the camp?
3 A. A new commander came whom I knew, I mean personally I knew his
4 name. But he was a very good man, but I suppose it was not all his -- he
5 wasn't really responsible for it all. But he said that nobody would be
6 beaten again. Nobody would be killed again. And indeed, he stood by his
7 word except that not even he knew that those men who had been called out
8 to two buses, that they would all be executed, and I suppose he would not
9 tell us that.
10 Q. What was this person's name, and when did he arrive as commander
11 in the camp?
12 A. One day, we were out on the pista and I recognised him then, the
13 man who was there. And we asked what was he doing there, what was his
14 position. And he was then responsible for the camp, Marinko. All I know
15 is that he used to work in a shop, in a store, building materials and
16 household appliances, a shop next to the orthodox cemetery in Prijedor.
17 Q. When did he take over as commander in the camp? How many days
18 after the Room 3 massacre was it before he took over?
19 A. After the second shooting, this shooting in the morning, I told my
20 neighbour Behlic, "Well, how about moving -- if you want to survive, how
21 about moving to Room 4." And we came across a man who had worked with us
22 in the same company. He worked for the -- at the railway station, and he
23 must have been a guard that day.
24 Q. Just pause there, please, Witness Q, and just listen to the
25 question. Are you able to say when it was that the new commander took
Page 3255
1 over in the camp as commander?
2 A. I was about to tell you how I moved to Room 3. This colleague of
3 ours allowed the two of us to move because we knew one another and I
4 suppose -- without the commander's knowledge. I don't know. But we moved
5 to Room 4, and I think that then, after that, well, I can't tell you the
6 exact day, but on the pista when we were outside, I saw then the new camp
7 commander.
8 Q. Thank you. If we can go back to the last day when the camp
9 closed, what happened to the prisoners on that day?
10 A. We all knew that the camp would be closed down. Marinko told us
11 so. And then some, I suppose, knew where the people would go. I thought
12 they'd let us go home, but somebody shouted that those whose names were
13 called out should board the bus which would allegedly -- but unfortunately
14 they would be killed. But at that time, we did not know if those who were
15 taking those buses and who had not been called out or those others, that
16 is, who would go to be slaughtered.
17 And there they called out my uncle and many of our neighbours, and
18 they filled about two buses with them. I cannot say how many. What I do
19 know is that a pit where those people had been thrown in and which was
20 discovered, there were 145 men in it near Sanski Most, and that is where
21 they found those fellow workers of mine who had been in Keraterm.
22 Q. Can you name, please, those fellow workers who were taken away on
23 that day?
24 A. I can give you -- if the Tribunal has a list of identified
25 persons, then I could give you. Adem Karupovic, Camil Music, Mujo Music,
Page 3256
1 Taib Mujadzic, those whom I remember. But there are very many who have
2 not been identified yet.
3 Q. Did you subsequently see the bodies of some of the men --
4 A. Yes, I did. I saw the skeletons or the skulls of all those
5 people.
6 Q. Now, Witness Q, you were -- you yourself were taken to Trnopolje
7 camp after the Keraterm camp closed; is that right?
8 A. Yes, that's right.
9 Q. And you stayed there for, I think, about 15 days; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, that's right.
11 Q. Yes, thank you.
12 MS. BALY: That's the evidence in-chief.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Ms. Baly.
14 Mr. Greaves.
15 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:
16 Q. Witness Q, I'd like to ask you, please, about something which
17 happened to you in 1998. It's right, isn't it, that you gave evidence
18 before this Tribunal in September of that year in another case? Do you
19 recall doing that?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. And just so that it's clear, that was the Kupreskic case; is that
22 right?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. GREAVES: May we go briefly into private session, please.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
Page 3257
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 3258
1 [Private session]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 3259
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [Open session]
11 MR. GREAVES:
12 Q. Witness Q, it's right, isn't it, that you were asked questions in
13 the Kupreskic trial about the process by which you came to make a
14 statement to the Bosnian authorities? Do you remember that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that you told the court on that occasion
17 that you had made a statement simply by having someone else's statement
18 photocopied and you putting your signature on it? Do you remember that?
19 A. We didn't understand each other. I remember that, but I say once
20 again, that's too difficult for me. And in that unfortunate case and in
21 that event, someone, and I gave the name there, a colleague -- when we
22 made those statements, they were not 100 per cent identical. They weren't
23 100 per cent the same. Of course, we can't all relive, revive a case in
24 the same way, that's quite logical, and write the same thing. So it can
25 only be similar, but it can't be 100 per cent identical.
Page 3260
1 Q. With respect, Witness Q, what you told the Tribunal on oath on
2 that occasion was this: "They took statements, the statement from one of
3 my colleagues, and then just crossed it out and wrote the same thing and
4 wrote just my name and so on, the same thing that he had said."
5 Isn't that what you did, simply have someone else's statement
6 copied out, and you were prepared to sign it as if it were your own story,
7 your own account? Isn't that what you did?
8 A. You're -- you probably doubt that I was there.
9 Q. Witness Q, I haven't suggested anything of the sort. I simply
10 wish to establish that you are someone who is prepared to advance as your
11 own account of matters the account of somebody else. Isn't that right?
12 A. Please, if you can, can we not talk about something that isn't
13 linked to this case, if that is possible.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness Q, it is linked to this case, and we will
15 determine whether it is relevant. Please answer the question.
16 MR. GREAVES:
17 Q. Witness Q, is your reluctance to answer these questions because
18 you know that you are someone who is prepared to be dishonest and
19 untruthful about accounts that you give to the authorities? Isn't that
20 why you are reluctant to talk about this particular subject?
21 A. It's an effort for me, but I'll tell you the real truth now, in
22 that case. Me and my colleague made a statement. I gave a statement. My
23 colleague was there in the same room, and the same person took our
24 statements. And allegedly -- for him, that is to say, for him not to say
25 the same thing and to say what happened, the man said, "Is that how you
Page 3261
1 experienced it? Did you experience it the same way?"
2 And as that was -- as it would be a waste of time, and it's not
3 paid, you understand me, it's not paid, then he, quite naturally, would
4 cross out the statement and add something else not to have it be 100 per
5 cent the same, copied the statement not to have it the same.
6 Q. So this was a man called Zijad Ibric, wasn't it, who was taking
7 the statements from you and your colleague; is that right?
8 A. Yes, it was that person.
9 Q. And Mr. Ibric suggested that you make some alterations from the
10 statement of your colleague to make it look as though it was actually a
11 different statement and a different person giving it; is that it?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So what it comes to, isn't it, is that between you, Mr. Ibric, and
14 your colleague, you were effectively faking an account of what was going
15 on, weren't you? Prepared to engage in fakery?
16 A. Not like that. That person was really there where the crime took
17 place. But some other circumstances, he didn't wish to -- he didn't -- he
18 was too taken up with his own family. He didn't want to lose time on
19 things like that, waste time with things like that.
20 Q. The other person really was there but you weren't; is that what
21 you're saying?
22 A. Where? Where do you mean?
23 Q. You were relating events which took place in -- somewhere in the
24 Lasva River Valley, isn't that right, Ahmici? Are you saying that the
25 colleague of yours really had been there but you hadn't?
Page 3262
1 A. When -- if you establish that I wasn't there, then you can
2 criminally prosecute me. Is that all right? When you're quite sure.
3 Q. I just wish to establish with you, Witness Q, please, you said a
4 moment or two in evidence that person was really there where the crime
5 took place. Do you mean by that, Witness Q, that you were not there at
6 the place where the crime took place but were merely repeating what he had
7 said?
8 A. We should then have to have a look at the proceedings and my
9 testimony, and then you can assess if you haven't seen it. You can assess
10 whether I was there or wasn't there.
11 Q. You see, the colleague that you're talking about, he refused, told
12 the Bosnian authorities he wasn't prepared to testify, didn't he?
13 A. Well, you know why he wasn't ready, wasn't prepared, because first
14 of all, the man is the kind of man he is, and I don't hold it against
15 him. He's illiterate. In fact, he is an illiterate person. Do you
16 understand me?
17 Q. So your statement came into existence using his as the basis for
18 it but with some alterations; is that it?
19 A. You didn't understand me at all. We're not understanding each
20 other at all.
21 Q. Well let's just approach it another way. Was the purpose of you
22 making alterations from your colleague's version of events designed to
23 prevent you being caught out if you were ever asked about these matters?
24 In other words, caught out for having copied someone else's statement. Is
25 that why it was done?
Page 3263
1 A. No, it wasn't because of that. You can't take a person, for
2 example, you can't have someone promise that he will come to testify and
3 then later on say, "No, I don't want to." And then he says he wants to,
4 but doesn't want to. He has to decide, either he does or he doesn't.
5 Only black and white. No other way. Because he thought -- like a quiz,
6 he probably took it to be a quiz, like a quiz.
7 Q. Witness Q, you told the Judges on -- in September 1998 that you
8 had suffered traumas and when you made one of your statements concerning
9 matters at Keraterm to the Bosnian authorities, you told them that you
10 were still disturbed as a result of what had happened to you.
11 Have you continued to suffer problems, disturbances, as a result
12 of what you saw in Prijedor and Ahmici?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do those problems include things like hallucinations and imagining
15 things happening, Witness Q?
16 A. No.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be asked to approach the
18 microphone when giving his answers, please. We cannot hear him.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness Q, will you please come closer to the
20 microphones. The interpreters are having difficulty hearing you.
21 A. Yes, I can.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.
23 MR. GREAVES:
24 Q. Do those problems that you suffer, Witness Q, make it difficult
25 for you to remember accurately what happened in Prijedor and Ahmici?
Page 3264
1 A. It's very difficult for me, really. You know why? I'll tell
2 you. I'm still not quite clear on how people can do that to other people,
3 do what they did to the victims.
4 Q. Yes. That wasn't the question that I asked. I know it's
5 difficult, Witness Q, but these are important matters. Do you, as a
6 result of the disturbances which affect you, find it difficult to give an
7 accurate account, an accurate and reliable account of the events which
8 happened to you in Prijedor and Ahmici?
9 A. From the beginning, everything? You mean from the beginning,
10 everything?
11 Q. Do you find it difficult to give an accurate and reliable account
12 of what happened to you because of the disturbances which you've suffered,
13 Witness Q?
14 A. Of course it's difficult. I wouldn't be a normal man if it
15 weren't difficult.
16 Q. I understand that. I fear I must press you a little, Witness Q.
17 Is one of the consequences of the difficulties that you face that you find
18 it very hard to be accurate and reliable when you give details of what
19 happened to you in that period? Is that --
20 A. It's not that difficult that I can't tell you.
21 Q. You see, when you made a statement to the Bosnian authorities in
22 March 1993, which was, what, seven months after you'd been in Keraterm,
23 you told them that you'd been taken to the camp on the 1st of August,
24 1992, didn't you?
25 A. The date -- you know what? If you want me to tell you all the
Page 3265
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 3266
1 dates, then I would have to be a computer of some kind, and that's
2 impossible, isn't it?
3 Q. Witness Q, the point is this, isn't it: This is an example of how
4 you find it difficult to be accurate and reliable when recounting events
5 from 1992 and 1993? You told them in relation to your detention at
6 Keraterm that it had happened on the 1st of August, 1992. Do you remember
7 telling them that?
8 A. What I can tell you is that I was taken to Keraterm on the
9 Orthodox holiday, St. Vitus day. Is that enough?
10 Q. And when does St. Vitus day fall, Witness Q?
11 A. Now, if you want me to quote figures, let me explain something to
12 you. By profession I was a machine operator on a train, and if I had to
13 remember all the numbers of the trains, would I be a phenomenon or what?
14 Would I be normal if I remembered all the train numbers?
15 So I know I don't have the right to ask you questions, but it's
16 very difficult for me to give you dates. There are such a lot of
17 unfortunate dates, and figures for me are the most difficult thing.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I believe you have the answer [Realtime
19 transcript read in error "witness"] there, Mr. Greaves.
20 MR. GREAVES: If I may just explore just two more questions.
21 Q. You're sure that it was St. Vitus day according to the Orthodox
22 calendar when you were arrested and taken to Keraterm?
23 A. I'm sure 100 per cent.
24 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that St. Vitus day is the 28th of June,
25 according to the Orthodox calendar? Do you accept that?
Page 3267
1 A. So if I said the 30th, as you say, but all I can say is I remember
2 that it was an Orthodox holiday and that that was the day I was taken into
3 detention.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Could I just have the transcript corrected as to
5 what I said. It reads, "I believe you have the witness there,
6 Mr. Greaves," and what I said was, "I think effectively you have the
7 answer there, Mr. Greaves," not "I believe you have the witness there,
8 Mr. Greaves."
9 Please proceed, Mr. Greaves.
10 MR. GREAVES: Yes, I think that's an incorrect transcription.
11 Q. And Witness Q, you were in Keraterm for no more than 15 days, were
12 you?
13 A. No, I was there for longer. I didn't count the days because my
14 life was threatened.
15 Q. Well, did you not tell the Bosnian authorities in March 1993 that,
16 "I stayed 15 days in Keraterm"?
17 A. No, I don't think I did. Could you repeat the question, please?
18 Q. Yes. In March 1993, you gave a statement to the Ministry of the
19 Interior Security Services Centre for Banja Luka then having their seat in
20 Travnik. You were interviewed by a man called Fikret Huskic, and you told
21 him and wrote down a statement to this effect, "I stayed 15 days in
22 Keraterm." Do you recall doing that?
23 A. I don't remember that.
24 Q. You see if that's correct, then you couldn't have been, I suggest
25 in Keraterm, when the Room 3 massacre had took place, if you had arrived
Page 3268
1 there as early as the 30th of June or the 28th of June.
2 A. I can -- there are lots of holidays, but let me explain it like
3 this, not St. Vitus day, no, not St. Vitus day, I made a mistake there.
4 It was Petrovdan, St. Peter's day. That's what it was. I made a
5 mistake. I apologise. I really did make a mistake there. So it was
6 St. Peter's day when I was taken to Keraterm. You know there are a lot of
7 holidays where I come from.
8 Q. When you made your statement to the Security Services Centre for
9 Banja Luka in Travnik in March 1993, did you tell them everything which
10 had happened to you and everything which you could recall?
11 A. I remember that man, but I don't remember that I gave him a
12 statement.
13 MR. GREAVES: I wonder if my learned friend may have an original
14 or a copy of an original, please and whether it could be shown to him. I
15 would be very grateful.
16 Q. Witness Q, would you look at that document, please and, in
17 particular, the end of the document. Do you see at the very bottom of
18 that document, Witness Q, two signatures right at the end? One of them
19 appears to be somebody called Fikret Huskic, and then on the other side of
20 the page, is that your signature?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And would you look, please, at the first page, Witness Q. Do you
23 see where it says, "I'm ..." and gives your name, don't read out your
24 name, gives your name "... personal details as stated above." Do you see
25 that paragraph?
Page 3269
1 A. You mean after the statement?
2 Q. Yes. There's a heading "Statement," and then it gives personal
3 details about you in about eight lines or so; do you see that? And then
4 the statement actually begins; do you see that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And it gives your name and says this, doesn't it, "Personal
7 details as stated above. Give this statement under full moral and
8 material responsibility. I will corroborate with my signature that it is
9 true, otherwise I am prepared to bear the legal responsibility for it."
10 Do you accept that that's what it says?
11 A. [No audible response]
12 Q. Yes. And when you made that statement, Witness Q, to Mr. Huskic,
13 did you put in it everything that had happened to you in Keraterm and
14 everything which you recall taking place in Keraterm?
15 A. If I can read everything, then I will.
16 Q. Would you like just to take a moment to read it over.
17 A. I need time. The number of people in the room, probably this man
18 put this figure there just like that. It's impossible for 500 men to fit
19 there. 300 is possible.
20 Q. Just pause there, please, Witness Q. Are you saying that, again,
21 someone put into your statement his words and you went along with it; is
22 that what it comes to?
23 A. No. Regarding this figure, it could be a mistake, a typing error,
24 the figure of 500 men in the room.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves, I think he gave an answer, he says,
Page 3270
1 "It could be a mistake, a typing error, the figure of 500 men in the
2 room."
3 MR. GREAVES: I've interrupted his reading. He's completing the
4 reading.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: He's still reading.
6 MR. GREAVES: That's why I hadn't gone on, Your Honour. It wasn't
7 that I had dried up completely.
8 Q. Now, then, Witness Q, did that statement contain all which
9 happened at Keraterm during your stay?
10 A. Yes. My memories were still fresh then.
11 Q. Help me about this: In the light of your assertion now that that
12 statement contains all that happened whilst you were in Keraterm, you've
13 made an allegation about 20 people being shot the following morning why is
14 there no mention of that incident in that statement?
15 A. There is -- let me see, now. I'll tell you in a minute.
16 Regarding the numbers for the next morning, I don't know whether I
17 mentioned that. Let me see, now.
18 Q. Let me help you, Witness Q. It isn't there, is it, at all? Just
19 no mention of it.
20 A. No, no, but I didn't mention it because -- well, you see, when --
21 I remember my colleague from work, I know he got killed then, and then
22 it's true I didn't mention it here in this first statement. That doesn't
23 mean that these statements have to be 100 per cent all equal, identical.
24 Q. Witness Q, help me, please, if you will: The killing of these 20
25 people, did that take place within just a few hours of the Room 3
Page 3271
1 massacre, in other words, the very same morning?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Later that same day?
4 A. The next morning, the next morning at dawn.
5 Q. You say that you heard automatic fire. Was that bursts of fire
6 from several different weapons?
7 A. The bursts came from one weapon.
8 Q. But it was a --
9 A. You mean for the execution, do you? Are you referring to the
10 execution?
11 Q. Yes, the incident which you say took place something like 24 hours
12 or so after the Room 3 massacre. It was a case of automatic fire, are you
13 saying from one weapon alone?
14 A. Yes, and then a pistol with one shot.
15 Q. And so when you use the phrase "bursts of fire," you mean the
16 discharge of many rounds of ammunition at the same time from the same
17 weapon; is that correct?
18 A. Well, naturally at that moment, there may be time for him to pick
19 up another rifle or change the charge and recharge the rifle.
20 Q. Yes. I'm not suggesting anything otherwise, but can you confirm
21 what you are saying is that this was a machine-gun-type weapon, and the
22 bursts of fire that you heard amount to many rounds being fired in one
23 discharge?
24 A. Well, you see, I can't say that I saw how they lined up the men
25 and then say that I saw exactly when I didn't see it. We just know that
Page 3272
1 those men are gone, that that morning this burst of fire was heard, that
2 the bullets hit against the wall, and we also heard single shots fired
3 from pistols, so it could have been nothing else but an execution.
4 Q. Witness Q, this is correct, isn't it: You did not see what was
5 going on outside, did you?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. You didn't see where the 20 people were when the firing took
8 place, did you?
9 A. I did not. I just know that they were taken away.
10 Q. Yes. And indeed, is this the case: Nobody in Room 3 could see
11 what was going on, nobody was in a position to see what was going on?
12 A. Nobody could see. It was early. I can't say what time it was;
13 they took our watches away. We were still -- those who were shot next to
14 us, they may have been half a metre away. There was a wall separating us,
15 and our lives were really in danger.
16 Q. And although those 20 people who were taken out have not been seen
17 again, you cannot say, can you, that they were in fact killed that day or
18 killed on some other occasion, can you?
19 A. I could learn at least about one of them living somewhere on this
20 planet to say, "I have survived the execution," as there have been such
21 cases of people saying, "I was wounded."
22 Q. Witness Q, let me just put it to you again. Those people have
23 disappeared, but you cannot say if the cause of their disappearance was
24 that they were killed that day in Keraterm or killed somewhere else on
25 some other occasion, can you?
Page 3273
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 3274
1 A. I cannot answer that for you.
2 Q. Just have a look at an aspect of the Room 3 massacre, if we may,
3 please. You've told Their Honours that there was some call for a
4 negotiator. Were negotiations in fact conducted between detainees and the
5 people outside?
6 A. No, there were not negotiations because probably the people who
7 were killed in front on the pista over there, they allegedly perhaps
8 thought that they would negotiate, but they were killed. So that was
9 rather - how shall I put it? - naive.
10 Q. Before the shooting started, was there some sort of disturbance
11 between the detainees in Room 3?
12 A. Of course there was. It was overcrowded. The temperature outside
13 was over 30 degrees probably, in my assessment. People were perspiring
14 terribly, the stench, and on top of that, a teargas bomb was thrown in
15 which went off in the middle of the room.
16 Q. Did people in the room, Room 3 start to fight amongst one another
17 before the shooting started?
18 A. No, not fight, but it was like a nightmare. People were escaping
19 but there was nowhere to escape to.
20 Q. Was there any trouble between detainees on a village against
21 village basis that you can recall at this time?
22 A. No, there weren't any problems of that kind. There were problems
23 because people were -- some had choked and some were about to choke.
24 Those were the problems. And they were asking for water. They didn't
25 have water, and so on.
Page 3275
1 Q. I'd like to ask you, please, about the commission that you
2 described coming to the camp. Is it your understanding that this was a
3 commission set up to investigate what had happened?
4 A. Probably the most responsible people in the civilian authorities
5 probably came to see. They heard, they couldn't believe it, so they came
6 to see for themselves whether that was really true.
7 Q. So would you accept the proposition that this was a commission of
8 investigation set up to conduct an inquiry into what had happened?
9 A. I think that this man that I knew but I didn't know his name, I
10 think he was something like the chief of police or deputy or something
11 like that.
12 Q. Would that have been Simo Drljaca; is that a name with which
13 you're familiar?
14 A. No. No. Not that one. No, I didn't know Simo Drljaca at all. I
15 think this was an older man --
16 Q. Does the name --
17 A. -- about 50 years old.
18 Q. A large man, overweight, grey-haired; would that be right?
19 A. Short and fat.
20 Q. Does the name Zivko Knezevic mean anything to you in connection
21 with this man?
22 A. Could be. But I knew him only from the beach, and I knew that he
23 worked in the police. That's all.
24 Q. Although the commission withdrew from the immediate area of Room
25 3, did you know where it went immediately after that?
Page 3276
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. And you don't know one way or the other, do you, whether the
3 commission carried out its task of investigating what happened, do you?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. Witness Q, you've told us about the closing of the camp. Is it
6 right that about 8 to 10 days before the camp closed, that was when the
7 new commander, Marinko, came and took over; is that right?
8 A. Something like that. I don't know the exact day, but towards the
9 end anyway. After everything that had happened, the worst things, then
10 Marinko came, yes, for the commander of the camp.
11 Q. And Marinko, is that his first name or his last name as far as you
12 know?
13 A. His name. I know his name.
14 Q. Could I suggest to you that his full name is Marinko Sadzak.
15 A. I don't know. I know the man because I used to shop in his store,
16 furniture, building material. That's how I know him.
17 [Defence counsel confer]
18 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Greaves. Mr. Petrovic.
20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrovic:
22 Q. Witness, could you please tell me first whether in Central Bosnia,
23 you were engaged in any military unit after you left Prijedor?
24 A. Yes, I was.
25 Q. Which military unit?
Page 3277
1 A. Do I have to say that? The army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was, for
2 me, something normal. That's no secret. I was a member.
3 Q. Does the nickname Hadzija mean anything to you?
4 A. From which area do you mean Hadzija?
5 Q. I'm referring to the area of the Central Bosnia, Vitez, Ahmici.
6 A. Yes, I did know a man who was a professional driver. He drove
7 trucks and trailers for a company in Bugojno, I think it was, which was
8 transporting goods.
9 Q. At the time of the conflict in Central Bosnia, was that man a
10 member of a military unit?
11 A. I think he was a member, and that man was killed. After he
12 surrendered all the weapons he had, after that when he surrendered his
13 weapons, he told me, "They are guaranteeing not to hurt us," but then
14 later that man was killed.
15 Q. Does that mean that he was a commander of that unit?
16 A. I don't know whether he was. It wasn't really a unit. His street
17 and, actually, everyone took up arms, and so they got arms, too. And then
18 they said that these should hand in their weapons and that nothing would
19 happen to them.
20 Q. Could you please answer my question, which I think was clear: Was
21 he the commander of that unit?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Were you a member of that unit?
24 A. Yes, I was.
25 Q. Who were the other members of that unit?
Page 3278
1 A. The other members, most of them had the surname Ahmic. I don't
2 know their names. I know some by their nicknames and so on.
3 Q. Were you given any kind of remuneration for belonging to that unit
4 and fighting in that unit?
5 A. In those days it was patriotic.
6 Q. Did you have any other benefits?
7 A. No, I didn't.
8 Q. How do you know about fragmentation ammunition?
9 A. When I was younger, I knew that it was prohibited.
10 Q. No. My question is, so please answer my question, how do you know
11 the effect of fragmentation ammunition?
12 A. I was a member of the former JNA. I did my military service as a
13 recruit.
14 Q. While you were doing your military service in the JNA, did you
15 ever once have occasion to see the effect of such ammunition or to see
16 such a bullet, a fragmentation bullet, while you were serving in the
17 former Yugoslav People's Army?
18 A. We were just informed about the effects of such ammunition and
19 nothing more than that. I didn't see any.
20 Q. Did anyone offer you any money to testify?
21 A. No.
22 Q. When you testified in the case that we have already mentioned, in
23 this Tribunal on the 21st of September, 1998, on page 2563 of the
24 transcript you said that money was offered to you to make statements but
25 that you didn't accept.
Page 3279
1 A. That is not true.
2 Q. What is not true, that money was offered to you, or is it not true
3 what I have just read from the LiveNote on the 21st of September?
4 A. It is not true that money was offered to me.
5 Q. In the case I mentioned, you said under oath, "Money was offered
6 to me, but I didn't think I had the right to earn money at somebody else's
7 expense, at the expense of somebody's tragedy."
8 A. Yes, normally. Yes, that's natural. That's right.
9 Q. Don't you see a contradiction there, that you said then that you
10 were offered money and you didn't want it, and today you are telling us
11 that you were never offered anything? These are two different things.
12 A. Yes, they are two different things, but they're two questions,
13 too. How do you explain that?
14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your
15 suggestion -- with your approval, could we have a break now, please?
16 Would that be appropriate?
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
18 Witness Q, we are going to take a break of half an hour. During
19 the adjournment, you are not to discuss your evidence with anybody,
20 including the members of the Prosecution team.
21 We're adjourned.
22 --- Recess taken at 11.01 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Petrovic, please.
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
Page 3280
1 Q. Witness Q, you said that in Room 3, and you were in that room, to
2 the left in that allocated part there was a wash basin or something like
3 it. Was there any water there?
4 A. No. All the faucets had been removed. Everything was destroyed.
5 Q. Was there a barrel with water in Room 3?
6 A. There was a barrel of sorts, but what was in it, now ...
7 Q. Was the barrel there in the night of the massacre in Room 3, if
8 you can remember, that is?
9 A. Yes. It was there, but there was also a barrel of maybe of 50
10 litres for all those people there.
11 Q. When you came to Keraterm, before the night of the massacre, were
12 you locked all the time in that room that you were in?
13 A. One day we came out onto the pista. It was terribly hot.
14 Q. Which means you were not kept locked up all the time?
15 A. No. It was in daytime, and we were laying down face down, our
16 hands above our heads, and when we were very hot, they poured water from
17 the hydrant over us.
18 Q. So you said that the night of the massacre -- very well. The
19 second night, the second night you spent in Keraterm, it was the first
20 morning after your arrival in Keraterm; is that correct?
21 A. Well, I don't remember exactly, but I know that one day we spent
22 lying down on the pista, and that that was what they did to us.
23 Q. Tell me, regarding the commission which turned up in the morning
24 after the massacre, do you remember when was that, or roughly? Was it
25 before the daybreak or was it full daylight?
Page 3281
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 3282
1 A. It was after the daybreak. It was around 8.00.
2 Q. So it was in full daylight?
3 A. Yes, it was. I think it was around 8.00.
4 Q. How many people were there in that group which you described to us
5 as a commission, roughly?
6 A. Well, naturally, I looked at one that I knew. I couldn't -- I saw
7 the car arrive, one of them, the one whom I knew, he had approached the
8 weigh bridge where the freight was weighed. That was he. Others did not
9 come close.
10 Q. And what car was it?
11 A. I didn't see the car.
12 Q. And that one that you knew, if I understood you well, you do not
13 remember his name, is it? Do you remember what the man was called?
14 A. No, I didn't know his name at all. I knew him because in summer,
15 he would come to the beach and that is how I remembered him. That's all.
16 Q. Do you remember what he looked like? Could you describe him to
17 us?
18 A. Well, I described him once. I can do it again if you want me to.
19 Then I will.
20 Q. Well, will you try, please.
21 A. He was short, I'd say up to 50 years of age. He was bald or,
22 rather, losing his hair, greying.
23 Q. And do you know what he did before the war?
24 A. Before the war, I saw that he had some rank insignia, but I did
25 not know which rank. He was either the chief of his or his deputy.
Page 3283
1 Q. In other words, he held a relatively high rank?
2 A. Yes, he had a high rank.
3 Q. And that also applies to the pre-war period?
4 A. Yes, before the war and during the war, yes, he assumed the role.
5 Q. Do you, perhaps, recall what uniform he had that morning?
6 A. He wasn't in a uniform, he had civilian clothes.
7 Q. Did you, perhaps, see if somebody tape-recorded anything?
8 A. No, I did not see anything.
9 Q. Did you, perhaps, see if those people, that commission, took notes
10 of what they could see at Keraterm that morning?
11 A. No, they did not take any notes. They did not tape anything or
12 anything. Of all the things that they should have done, they did nothing.
13 Q. That morning when the bodies of people who had died that night
14 were taken out, were there any shots fired at that time or was it all calm
15 by then?
16 A. In the morning when the day broke, it was all calm. Nobody did
17 anything.
18 Q. That day after the massacre, did you leave the room?
19 A. We only left so that the room could be cleaned.
20 Q. So that morning, nobody ill-treated you when you came out of that
21 room that you had spent the night in?
22 A. That's right.
23 [Defence counsel and accused Dosen confer]
24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no
25 further questions.
Page 3284
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.
2 Sir Ivan.
3 Cross-examined by Mr. Lawrence:
4 Q. Witness Q, you told us that before the Room 3 massacre, you had
5 the feeling that something bad was going to happen, that there was tension
6 in the air; do you recall that?
7 A. Well, you see, there was tension because of the previous night,
8 because of people beaten up, because of those who had left and not come
9 back. Those who had been taken away.
10 Q. Yes. Can you just answer my question yes or no unless there's
11 more that you need to say.
12 Did you tell us that in the minutes or hours leading up to the
13 shooting of the people in Room 3, there was growing tension, and you had
14 the feeling that something bad might be happening? Yes or no?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. And --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please come closer to the
18 microphone.
19 MR. LAWRENCE:
20 Q. Please come closer to the microphone, Witness Q, because the
21 interpreters can't hear you. Thank you.
22 Is it possible that one of the reasons why you felt increasing
23 tension in the air was because there was a lot of movement which you
24 couldn't see outside in the camp that night, a lot of coming, people
25 coming on to the camp?
Page 3285
1 A. Well, yes. People opened the door as they pleased, and took
2 out -- they either went through a list or would point at someone, one of
3 the detainees, that they needed to speak to them.
4 Q. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the evidence - I'm
5 so sorry - the evidence you gave about an increasing feeling of tension
6 that evening, a buildup of a feeling that something bad was going to
7 happen, which was unusual. Was there such a feeling that evening?
8 A. There was, yes.
9 Q. And was that or may that have been because a lot more people were
10 coming on to the camp that evening?
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. And was the atmosphere that you were feeling consistent with a lot
13 of soldiers coming on to the camp, vehicles coming on to the camp, and
14 movement of people outside on the pista or elsewhere in the camp?
15 A. Well, I made that statement earlier, that I had told my neighbour,
16 "Tonight will be a bad night." And he, too, calmed me down, to help me,
17 to put it that way. He said, "Don't be afraid. Tonight -- Kole's on
18 tonight, and he's a good man, so we'll fare all right while his shift is
19 on." I don't know if he knew Kole personally, but that's what he told
20 me. But everything turned out the other way around.
21 Q. And if there were soldiers coming on to the camp, they might have
22 been responsible, for all you know, for the smoke bomb coming in through
23 the window?
24 A. I could even assume that the biggest problem was caused by
25 Banovic, and I could recognise him if he were there, but he is not here.
Page 3286
1 He had a pigtail. I cannot [sic] recognise him. There were two brothers
2 Banovic, and he sowed most of this unrest or this restlessness amongst the
3 detainees. He was there in the night of the massacre. Cupo, he was
4 called, but I do not know which one, but one of the two brothers, and one
5 of them I'd -- I'm sure I would recognise.
6 Q. Can you please, Witness, just concentrate on the questions that
7 I'm asking you and give as simple answers as you can.
8 My question was, if it were so that a lot of the movement on the
9 camp was because soldiers were coming on to the camp, might it be that the
10 soldiers were responsible for throwing the smoke bomb through the window?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You didn't see Banovics throwing smoke bombs through the window,
13 that's what I ought to ask you, did you?
14 A. I didn't. I didn't see who had thrown the bomb --
15 Q. Of course not.
16 A. -- but ...
17 Q. Now, when you said that you thought you heard somebody asking for
18 somebody to come out and negotiate, which you rightly thought was absurd
19 in the circumstances, do you remember that incident?
20 A. I do remember the incident.
21 Q. Might it have been that the soldiers were provocatively trying to
22 encourage residents, the inmates of Room 3, to come out so that they could
23 be shot? Might you have misunderstood that it was an invitation to
24 negotiate, rather, an invitation to come out and be shot?
25 A. Yes. Yes. That's it. Well, there are practically two questions
Page 3287
1 there. What I think is that they wanted somebody to negotiate with
2 supposedly some room leader --
3 Q. Well, I know --
4 A. -- so as to beat him up or something because the atmosphere was
5 already rather tense and nobody could come out. The room was very
6 stuffy.
7 Q. What I'm suggesting, Witness, is that it was so ridiculous to even
8 think that this was a negotiation situation, but what was happening was
9 that the guard, the soldiers with the guns were trying to provoke the Room
10 3 residents to come out when they would be shot. May that have been the
11 situation?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can I move, please, to another matter very briefly. You told us
14 about the incident of the calling out of the 20 the next day; do you
15 remember?
16 A. I do, yes.
17 Q. And that was not the same day as the shooting that had taken place
18 in the early morning and through the night. It wasn't that day, it was
19 the day afterwards. You told us that.
20 A. I did.
21 Q. Is it right that you were told that Fustar was the shift commander
22 when those 20 prisoners were called out?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You told us, and you didn't really need to tell us, what a
25 traumatic and horrifying event the shooting of the inmates of Room 3 was,
Page 3288
1 and you've told us where you were in the room.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. We've heard evidence that earlier on in the evening, there was
4 singing in Room 3; do you recall that?
5 A. Yes, that selfsame Banovic made us do it, made us sing their
6 songs. And later on when the melee started, he demanded that we keep
7 silent.
8 Q. Can you remember how long before the shooting roughly, because we
9 know you didn't have watches, that singing took place? Was it hours
10 before or minutes before or ...
11 A. Well, it didn't last long because --
12 Q. How long before, not how long it lasted? If you can help us,
13 please, how long before the shooting was the singing?
14 A. Well, perhaps two or three hours, thereabouts. Two hours. Two,
15 I'd say, two.
16 Q. Might it have been longer than two?
17 A. I cannot tell you exactly, but I'd say it was two hours.
18 Q. My question is -- you're doing your best, but might it have been
19 longer than two hours before the shooting began?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. Do you remember -- you've told us that there was a
22 shortage of water in Room 3 and were people in Room 3 crying out for
23 water, shouting out for water?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. We've heard evidence that Kole was trying to get somebody to bring
Page 3289
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 3290
1 a hose to Room 3. Can you remember whether that happened or not? Can you
2 remember? That's the point.
3 A. I don't remember that.
4 Q. Can you remember nearer to the shooting, and we've heard evidence,
5 Kole shouting to the inmates of Room 3 to break the glass so that they
6 could get more air?
7 A. Yes, but it was by then too late already.
8 Q. So your recollection was hearing Kole shouting that?
9 A. Yes, I heard him.
10 Q. Thank you. Did you hear Kole, and we've heard evidence about
11 this, shout to the residents of Room 3 not to come outside once the
12 shooting was starting?
13 A. I did not.
14 Q. Did you hear, and we've heard evidence about this, Kole shouting
15 to the soldiers to stop the shooting?
16 A. I did not.
17 Q. If it happened and you didn't hear it, might that be because there
18 was such a lot of noise going on inside Room 3?
19 A. Yes, there was a lot of noise because our lives were in danger.
20 Q. And you were down by the wash basin, I think you told us, and the
21 radiators. Was that sort of low on the floor?
22 A. No, like that, regularly. A metre, a metre above the floor on the
23 wall just like any other wash basin.
24 Q. But the atmosphere inside the room must have been appalling?
25 A. Yes, it was.
Page 3291
1 Q. And you must have been very shocked and horrified?
2 A. We were very frightened. We didn't know what was going on. We
3 knew what was going on because even before that shooting, there already
4 were some dead and wounded, and there was confusion and disorder.
5 Q. And the memory of events that you've tried to drive out of your
6 mind over the years?
7 A. Well, actually, you can't wipe it out. You can't drive it out.
8 That's impossible.
9 Q. But did you try?
10 A. When I am doing something, then I tend to forget about it while
11 I'm doing something.
12 Q. And I think you're not claiming, are you, Witness Q, that you
13 remember everything with total accuracy that happened that night?
14 A. I don't claim that I remember everything with total accuracy, of
15 course not.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Sir Ivan.
18 Ms. Baly.
19 Re-examined by Ms. Baly:
20 Q. You said, Witness Q, that after the massacre, this commission came
21 at about 8.00 a.m. in the morning. My question is, had the bodies and the
22 wounded been taken away by that time?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Had Room 3 been cleaned by that time?
25 A. No, it hadn't.
Page 3292
1 MS. BALY: Thank you. Those are my questions.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness Q, that completes your evidence, and you
3 are released.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.
6 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. The Prosecution's next witness
7 has presently been designated as Witness K33 with protective measures.
8 It's possible, and I will not know until the witness takes the stand,
9 whether or not he -- we have had a discussion about whether he will
10 continue with that, and I won't know until he takes the stand. So perhaps
11 we can go into closed session very briefly once the witness has taken the
12 stand as to whether he wants to continue with protective measures, or
13 whether or not he will allow himself to be examined as an open witness.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.
15 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
16 [Closed session]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 3293
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 Page 3293 – redacted – closed session
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 3294
1 [Open session]
2 MR. RYNEVELD: Sir -- I'm sorry, are we open? Thank you.
3 Q. Sir, I understand that you were living in the town where you were
4 born, at the outbreak of the war, with your wife and children; is that
5 correct?
6 A. Yes. I lived in Rakovcani, and that means Prijedor.
7 Q. Yes. And prior to the war, sir, you had worked as a locksmith
8 with the railway company; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 Q. Is it also true, sir, that you served your compulsory military
11 service and later you became a member of the reserve police?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is it also true to say, sir, that you were not active in politics,
14 but that you had joined the communist party because you found it easier to
15 find a job at that time as a member of the communist party?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, sir, in May of 1992, is it fair to say that the company that
18 you worked for closed down, and as a result of that, you lost your job?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And during that period of time, May 1992, I understand that for
21 about a month before that, you noticed soldiers being stationed in the
22 area where you lived and you noticed some armoured vehicles or tanks in
23 the area as well; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, that's right.
25 Q. Sir, I understand that Radio Prijedor broadcast a message on the
Page 3295
1 20th of May 1992 wherein you heard that people of certain Muslim villages
2 including your village, Rakovcani, were to put white flags on your houses;
3 is that correct?
4 A. [No audible response]
5 Q. What were your villages, sir, that were specifically mentioned in
6 the radio broadcast?
7 A. We called them Brda, it was Rakovcani, Biscani, Carakovo, et
8 cetera, the hills.
9 Q. What did you understand was the purpose of putting those white
10 flags on your houses?
11 A. It was the sign of giving ourselves up, but to whom and why and
12 what, that wasn't clear to me.
13 Q. At the time, sir, in May of 1992, are you able to give the Court
14 an estimate as to how many houses there would have been in Rakovcani and
15 about how many normal village inhabitants there would have been?
16 A. Rakovcani numbered, I'm not quite sure, but between 500 and 600
17 households which means about 3.000 inhabitants.
18 Q. And was Rakovcani ethnically mixed or was it predominantly one
19 ethnicity or religion, religious group?
20 A. It was one religious group, Muslims, in the whole area of what we
21 call Brdo. Rakovcani is there too.
22 Q. Are you saying it was almost an exclusively Muslim area?
23 A. Yes, exclusively Muslim area, Brdo, which is what we called it.
24 Q. So Brdo was a name for a collection of villages; is that correct?
25 This is an area comprising a number of villages? You're nodding your
Page 3296
1 head.
2 A. Yes, that's right. That's right.
3 Q. Sir, at one point, did you suddenly find that there were a number
4 of other people that you refer to as refugees who came to your village?
5 A. Yes. They came from Ljubija, from Hambarine, but they were --
6 they fled to Ljubija first and some went to Rakovcani, Biscani,
7 Rizvanovici, that kind of thing. But they were mostly from Hambarine
8 actually.
9 Q. Do you know what they were fleeing from?
10 A. They fled to save their lives from, well, you know from whom. On
11 the 22nd of May already, that had already started. Now, they know that.
12 They can assess what they did and -- but on the 22nd of May was when this
13 started, when the refugees started moving out, taking different
14 directions.
15 Q. Sir, unfortunately although you indicate that I know what it was,
16 we need to tell the Court what it was. So I'm going to have to have you
17 tell us rather than assume that I already know what the reason for the
18 refugees fleeing from what danger.
19 A. Well, they fled from the Serbian army which had taken over
20 Hambarine.
21 Q. Sir, this Serbian army, did they ever visit your house?
22 A. Yes, they did on a number of occasions.
23 Q. When, and what sorts of things occurred when they arrived at your
24 house?
25 A. Once they came into the house and I was present there, but on many
Page 3297
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 3298
1 other times I fled from the house. I had to flee because I was afraid and
2 so were my wife and children. But when I was present on one occasion, a
3 civilian came in wearing a tracksuit, two soldiers with him, and they
4 looked around, looked at our things, and they made a note of them. And
5 they said that nobody must touch this property and that they would come to
6 fetch it later on, things like a television, a video recorder. Things
7 like that.
8 Q. And did they, in fact, return and take those items?
9 A. Yes, they did return.
10 Q. And when they returned, did they take those items away?
11 A. Yes, they took them away. They took the items away, the
12 television set, the video recorder.
13 Q. Were you given an explanation as to why?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You told us you lived with your wife and children at your home.
16 How old was your -- I take it you had a son; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, his name was [redacted].
18 Q. And how old was he?
19 A. 14.
20 Q. Did the soldiers express any interest in him?
21 A. Yes. They asked how old he was, and as a parent, that was
22 suspicious. Why did they have to ask him his age? And as he looked
23 older, he was physically well-developed, well, he looked as if he might be
24 15 or 16 years old so I was afraid for him.
25 Q. Now, the time that you've just talked about, the radio broadcast
Page 3299
1 and the soldiers visiting your home, was that in the period of time
2 between the 20th of May and the 19th of July 1992?
3 A. Could you repeat that question, please?
4 Q. Yes. These events that you've just told us about, did they occur
5 in the time period -- well, let me rephrase it. Do you know approximately
6 when those things happened?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Tell us, please.
9 A. From the 20th of May to the 20th of July when I was finally ...
10 Q. Okay. I don't know if you finished your sentence, when you were
11 finally what?
12 A. Well, taken into custody, arrested in front of my own house.
13 Q. All right. Sir, I'd like you to turn your mind now, if you would,
14 to the 19th of July, 1992. Can you tell us what was happening in the area
15 surrounding the village where you lived?
16 A. What happened was shelling. That lasted about two hours, although
17 for me it seemed to be an eternity because I had never encountered weapons
18 and shells or anything of that kind before, but it was exactly on the
19 19th.
20 Q. Apart from shelling, did you see any troops?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And what, if anything, were they doing?
23 A. They were passing by my house when I saw them. My father's dead;
24 he's no longer living. He shot at my father, but they missed, and perhaps
25 it would have been a better thing if he had died then than later on.
Page 3300
1 But anyway, in Rizvanovici an incident occurred as well.
2 Allegedly, what had happened was that they had lost a soldier, as they
3 said, in that part of Rizvanovici. However, they arrested I don't know
4 how many people but a lot of them and took them off with them towards
5 Ljubija. And later on it was found that they had been killed.
6 Q. This incident you've just told us about, sir, that was a
7 neighbouring village, Rizvanovici?
8 A. Yes, that's right.
9 Q. Did these troops eventually show up in your village, which was
10 Rakovcani?
11 A. Well, whether they were the same ones or not, I don't know, but
12 they would appear often. But when the cleansing, as they said -- that is
13 to say, on the 24th when that was to happen, I don't know where they were
14 from. But yes they did appear frequently in that period, between the 20th
15 of May and, let's say -- or, rather, the 22nd of May when the attack on
16 Hambarine took place right up to the arrest itself.
17 Q. All right. Perhaps I have not been clear in my questioning. I
18 thought we were talking about the 19th of July moving on to the 20th of
19 July. You've told us that on the 19th of July that neighbouring villages
20 were being shelled, I believe, and --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did the -- and that troops were doing certain things. My question
23 now is, on the 19th or 20th of July, did troops, i.e., soldiers, Serbian
24 soldiers, end up in your village of Rakovcani?
25 A. Well, they came -- they turned up at around 9.00 or 10.00 and
Page 3301
1 started taking people out. I personally at that particular moment had
2 come to a neighbour's house, and I was listening to Radio Prijedor, the
3 news through Radio Prijedor that day, and they announced that there would
4 be a search taking place, and as they said, as they called it, this
5 search. And I came home. When I came home, I saw my wife and children
6 grouped together with their neighbour, a lady called Sefika. However,
7 just as I had entered, two soldiers turned up. They were wearing
8 uniforms, and they said that all the men were to come outside. I looked
9 at my wife and children, and I had to go out because if I were to resist
10 them, I would have got a bullet in my head or something like that.
11 Q. Did they say anything else to you other than that all men were to
12 go outside?
13 A. Yes. One of them said -- told me to sit down, and he swore at
14 me. He used derogatory terms. He said, "Fuck you and Alija, your Alija,"
15 something along those lines. And at one point he said that I should move
16 towards the group of people who were standing some 50 to 100 metres away
17 from my own house. This was called Kuzno [phoen], and that's where my
18 neighbours had been gathered together.
19 Q. Just let me ask you one question. When he said -- he swore at you
20 and made some comment about your Alija, who was Alija? What is that? Who
21 was that?
22 A. Alija Izetbegovic, the president.
23 Q. Of?
24 A. Of the then Bosnia-Herzegovina.
25 Q. So that was reference to a political figurehead, was it?
Page 3302
1 A. Yes. And they said, "Who did you vote for?" They mistreated us,
2 generally speaking.
3 Q. Well, sir, this gentleman who told you to sit down, was he armed?
4 A. Yes. They had automatic rifles. I didn't look to see what type;
5 otherwise, I could have recognised an automatic rifle. I was able to
6 distinguish between this type of rifle and the other PAP type or whatever.
7 Q. At the time that you were arrested, sir, were you somehow
8 associated with the military or were you a civilian?
9 A. Exclusively civilian.
10 Q. What happened to you?
11 A. When I left to -- went to the crossroads, my neighbours were
12 there. Some soldiers waited for us there and asked for our IDs so that we
13 could join the other group, but at that particular point I didn't take out
14 my ID card, but I gave them some other papers. I don't remember exactly
15 what, but some other papers. And we moved off towards Rizvanovici.
16 Q. This other group you refer to, other group of what?
17 A. People.
18 Q. What kind of people, and where were they from?
19 A. They were exclusively from Rakovcani and some from Hambarine.
20 Where I was, thereabouts. Rizvanovici. Some other people were to join
21 us.
22 Q. When you say people, were they male, female, adults, children, or
23 was it a more restricted group?
24 A. Males.
25 Q. What were their ages?
Page 3303
1 A. Exclusively men. Between 14 and 80 years of age.
2 Q. What were these prisoners or what were this group of men to do?
3 What did they do and why?
4 A. You mean the Serb army?
5 Q. No. Let's back up. You just told us that there was a group of
6 exclusively men, and then I think you gave us an age range although I
7 don't think that the transcript picked it up. What was the age range?
8 A. From 14 to 80 years old.
9 Q. All right. Now, this group of people, did they just stay there or
10 did they go somewhere or what -- what did they do and why did they do it?
11 A. Well, they were standing around at that crossroads. They were
12 just standing there. And the numbers increased, more and more people came
13 up, and then at one point we moved off towards Rizvanovici.
14 Q. How did you know to do that?
15 A. Because we placed our hands on the shoulders of the person in
16 front of us, and we had to sing their songs.
17 Q. When you say you had to do something, who was it who was giving
18 you the instructions to do that?
19 A. I can't say exactly, but it was the Serb soldiers.
20 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, so you marched off into the direction of
21 Rizvanovici, if I have pronounced that correctly. You are nodding your
22 head. Yes?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And how far away was that?
25 A. It was about a kilometre away, thereabouts.
Page 3304
1 Q. So the group of you just marched there under escort from the
2 soldiers; do I understand that?
3 A. Yes, that's right.
4 Q. And when you got there, what happened?
5 A. An APC vehicle turned up and some soldiers came out of it; one of
6 the soldiers had a Serbian flag, took a Serbian flag. You could see that
7 from the Rizvanovici place. He went up to the mosque, the minaret of the
8 mosque, took down the flag that was there, and raised the Serbian flag.
9 And I noticed that he shot at someone with a sniper or another weapon, I'm
10 not sure whether it was actually a sniper, but I don't know whether he hit
11 his target or not.
12 Q. When you say, "He shot at somebody with a sniper," are you
13 referring to a sniper as a weapon?
14 A. Yes. Yes, a weapon.
15 Q. I see. Now, sir -- and this may seem like a very stupid question
16 and it probably is but I'm going to ask you this anyway: This mosque that
17 you referred to, is this a Muslim house of religious order?
18 JUDGE MAY: I don't think we need to be told what that is.
19 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
20 Q. In any event, sir, at some point, do I understand that a number of
21 buses arrived?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And what, if anything, happened when the buses arrived?
24 A. Then they started yelling at us and cursing us, and told us to get
25 on to these buses. They said, "You Turkish swine," something to that
Page 3305
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 3306
1 effect, "Get in." Once we got in, a man in uniform, one of them, entered
2 and said, "The older people can get off." And he personally pointed at
3 the people who could get off the bus.
4 Q. Did he give a reason?
5 A. Allegedly they were not fit for the camp, that they should stay
6 behind. However later on, it was established that they tortured these
7 older people and killed most of them. This was to be learnt later.
8 Q. Did you know who it was that got on the bus and told the older
9 people to get off?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Could you tell us?
12 A. It was Rade Bilbija. He lived about three kilometres, three to
13 four kilometres from my house.
14 Q. Now, did the rest of you stay on the buses and where did the buses
15 go?
16 A. I stayed in the bus. It was packed full. How many exactly there
17 were, five or six, that headed off towards the camps via Rakovcani and
18 Hambarine.
19 Q. En route to wherever the buses were going, did it stop at
20 Hambarine, the bus you were on?
21 A. Yes. This was in the Hambarine Polje or field.
22 Q. And what happened once the bus stopped at the Hambarine field?
23 A. They took a man out who was about 30. I knew him. His name was
24 Selimovic, his nickname Baki. I don't know his name. They took him off,
25 and nothing is known about him since, whether he is alive or not.
Page 3307
1 Q. Who took him off the bus?
2 A. I noticed a colleague of mine from work next to the white Kombi
3 van, a small van that was standing there. I noticed Brane Krnata. Now,
4 who actually took him off and why, allegedly I heard from others that they
5 had lost a soldier of their own and they wanted to make up for it. This
6 is something I heard later so I don't know whether it's true.
7 Q. These people that took him off the bus, one of which you
8 recognised and have named, could you tell how they were dressed?
9 A. They were in uniform.
10 Q. Do you remember what kind of uniform?
11 A. We usually call it SMB, olive-grey. They were the Yugoslav
12 military uniform. I didn't really look closely so I'm not a hundred per
13 cent sure.
14 Q. Once this man was taken off the bus, your bus continued on, did
15 it?
16 A. Yes, along the road towards Prijedor.
17 Q. Did you hear from other passengers on the bus what happened to
18 this man as your bus was driving away?
19 A. Yes. I heard that they were first playing around with him, and
20 then they started beating him. The bus started. What happened after
21 that, Brane Krnata probably knows.
22 Q. Sir, in any event, your bus continued on and you ultimately
23 arrived at Keraterm camp later that morning; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And when you arrived at Keraterm, sir, did the buses park inside
Page 3308
1 of the compound?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Where?
4 A. In front of the camp, there was a gate there.
5 Q. Yes. Did it go through the gate, or do you recall?
6 A. I'm not sure about that.
7 Q. But in any event --
8 A. There were other things I had on my mind.
9 Q. Certainly. In any event, sir, when you got off the bus, did you
10 go through the gate into the camp at some point?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And when you were inside the gate, what happened to you?
13 A. As I entered I reached a kiosk, and then a soldier, normally,
14 asked me for my ID. I gave it to him. He asked me my surname. I said
15 what my name was -- can I mention my name?
16 Q. Just, we will get to the point where I will have to ask that. We
17 will go into the closed session. At the moment just tell us that you gave
18 him your surname, please. You gave him your surname, yes?
19 MR. RYNEVELD: Perhaps this is a good time. We should just deal
20 with this one issue that we need to go into closed session. It is only
21 about three questions. Just a minute.
22 [Closed session]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 3309
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 Page 3309 redacted – closed session
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 3310
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [Open session]
7 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
8 Q. Now, sir, this gentleman that you had this conversation with, did
9 he ask for your identification, or had you given it to the soldier?
10 A. I gave it to this man who was the first one next to me, closest to
11 me. And behind him was Sikirica, and he said this to me.
12 Q. Yes. And what happened with your identification card? Did it
13 ever get into Sikirica's possession, and if so, how?
14 A. He was already in the kiosk with this soldier.
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. And so he already had the ID.
17 Q. And by "he," are you talking about the soldier or Sikirica?
18 A. Sikirica.
19 Q. Did he return the ID, or did he make any notation in your
20 presence?
21 A. He took down my name, and he didn't return the ID to me.
22 Q. All right, sir. Now, do I understand correctly from your evidence
23 that you recognised this individual that you have now called Sikirica from
24 a previous incident involving the, shall we say, picking up of a body of a
25 woman?
Page 3311
1 A. No, I didn't recognise him by that. I had noticed him, but I
2 didn't pay much attention. It was only later when I came to the camp that
3 I realised that I had seen that person before, and that is at the
4 checkpoint at Hambarine.
5 Q. How much earlier had this incident involving picking up the
6 woman's body been before you were arrested and taken to Keraterm camp?
7 How much time had passed between the time you had seen him there?
8 A. Not very much. This was less than a month, I think. Fifteen to
9 twenty days previously.
10 Q. Is it fair to say, sir, that at the time that you went to pick up
11 the woman's body, you did not know this man's name?
12 A. It was a woman, not a man. Her name was Causevic.
13 Q. No, no, no, sorry. Badly phrased my question. Is it fair to say
14 that at the time you picked up this woman's body, you did not know the
15 name of the man that you now refer to as Sikirica?
16 A. I did not know.
17 Q. Is it also fair to say that you did not know this man's name at
18 the time you had a conversation with him and he recorded your ID?
19 A. I didn't know, but the president, of the local community had
20 spoken to him, of the Red Cross, Camil Dedic. And I, myself, was on the
21 tractor. But I noticed him, of course.
22 Q. Did the president of the Red Cross tell you what the name was of
23 the man that he spoke to?
24 A. No, he didn't.
25 Q. How did you learn that the man that you spoke to at Keraterm camp,
Page 3312
1 and the man who had been in charge at the time that you picked up the
2 woman's body was named Sikirica. When did you learn his name?
3 A. I learnt it in the camp.
4 Q. From whom?
5 A. First, from his own colleague, Nurija Crljenkovic a good friend of
6 mine. Unfortunately, he is not alive. And there were others who knew
7 him, older detainees.
8 Q. Turning now just right to the very last paragraph, paragraph 22,
9 I'll just follow up on this. Sir, this Nurija Crljenkovic, you say was a
10 colleague of yours. What did this individual, what information did this
11 individual have about Sikirica and his identity?
12 A. Simply I didn't really inquire much, but he was saying that he was
13 his colleague from work. I also know that he was never tortured. He was
14 one of those who was in Room 3 who was not tortured. But Nurija explained
15 it by saying that they had worked together and he knew him, and maybe that
16 is why he was not tortured. And he also spoke to him now and then during
17 the day.
18 Q. So this friend of yours who told you Sikirica's identity knew
19 Sikirica because he had worked with him; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, certainly.
21 Q. I see. So the source of your information about who Sikirica was
22 was from someone who personally knew him?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. All right. Returning, if I may, Your Honours, to --
25 A. May I also add that I had another encounter with Sikirica, but
Page 3313
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 3314
1 maybe we'll come to that later.
2 Q. We'll get to that in a moment, sir. For the moment, I'm just
3 trying to find out it was that you knew that this man's name was Sikirica,
4 all right?
5 Now, sir, earlier in your evidence you referred to an individual
6 by the name of "Banovic" and you referred to him in relation to the same
7 incident when you and the president of the Red Cross went to pick up a
8 woman's body; do you recall that?
9 A. Yes. Yes, I do. I remember.
10 Q. Did you see this individual, Banovic, later in the camp, camp
11 Keraterm?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. First of all, after you arrived at Keraterm, where were you
14 placed, what room?
15 A. Room 3.
16 Q. With how many other people and, if so, how do you know?
17 A. We were placed there, somebody counted, I don't know exactly, but
18 about 400 people were in there. They should know best how many because
19 they had the particulars.
20 Q. But to your knowledge, somebody made a count of the people and
21 told you that it was about 400 people that were in that room; is that fair
22 to say?
23 A. Yes. Yes.
24 Q. And the day that you arrived at Keraterm, sir, just so that I'm
25 correct, have I got the day correct, was this the 20th of July 1992?
Page 3315
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you had arrived in early morning; is that correct? No, I'm
3 sorry, late morning.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And what happened during the day, if anything, and when, if any
6 time, were you locked down for the night?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. There was a question in there, sir, so I should ask it again.
9 What happened -- you were placed in Room 3. Did anything happen during
10 the day before you were locked up at night?
11 A. Yes, we went for lunch. That was the first time I went to eat.
12 We were given two minutes to eat. Of course you had to obey. We reached
13 the room, this number 3, so-called. Maybe later it would get another
14 name. A group of men entered that room; however, 10 or so of us were the
15 last stayed behind.
16 Q. I'm sorry, sir, I think -- I've got to back you up. I'm talking
17 about the very first day you arrived at the camp, the very first day.
18 A. Oh, I see.
19 Q. We'll get to the incident you're talking about later, okay? The
20 very first day, the 20th of July.
21 A. I apologise.
22 Q. Did you get fed the very first day?
23 A. No. Can I go on?
24 Q. Yes, please.
25 A. The first time I was given food was on the 24th. That was the
Page 3316
1 first meal I got.
2 Q. And I take it you were about to tell us about getting your first
3 meal a moment ago when I indicated to you that I wanted you to talk about
4 your first day of arrival; is that correct? You are nodding your head
5 meaning yes?
6 A. [No audible response]
7 Q. Let's make sure that we know what time frame we're talking about.
8 We're talking about the 20th of July, the first day you arrived at
9 Keraterm. Was the door locked sometime that day?
10 A. On the 20th of July, one of the soldiers locked the door about
11 8.00.
12 Q. What happened after that, if anything?
13 A. On the 20th of July, the night to the 21st, what time it was I
14 don't know, but anyway, a call-out started. They called out first Avdic
15 Rasim. How he fared, I don't know. I know that I was taken out.
16 Q. How was that? How were you taken out? Who called you out?
17 A. I didn't know who it was, but I was to learn later who it was.
18 They said, "Come out, we need you." However, there was a younger man,
19 [redacted], then me, and then the room chief Muharem said, [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 Q. If I can just stop you there, sir. How -- by what reference or by
22 what name did you think you were being called out? How did they refer to
23 you so that you knew you were being called out? Was it by your name or by
24 some other term?
25 A. It wasn't my name. [redacted].
Page 3317
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises, didn't hear the
2 word.
3 A. I was known as a [redacted].
4 MR. RYNEVELD:
5 Q. All right. [redacted]
6 [redacted]?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. And if I understand what you were trying to explain earlier, there
9 were other younger players [redacted]?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. And how did you know that it was you they were referring to as
12 opposed to one of them who also were [redacted]?
13 A. The man who was calling out said, "We need the [redacted]who
14 [redacted]," so I knew that he meant me.
15 Q. And as a result of that, what, if anything, did you do?
16 A. Nothing. I knew that he wanted me, so I went out.
17 Q. That's what I meant.
18 A. A big man was there. When I opened the door, I saw somebody who
19 looked familiar. I didn't pay much attention. He said, "Go over there,"
20 and it was Banovic, actually. When I reached that room, it was a room for
21 torture.
22 Q. All right. I'm going to stop you there, sir.
23 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, we're about to launch on an area
24 that's going to take a few minutes, and I wonder if this is an appropriate
25 time for our lunch break.
Page 3318
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it is.
2 Witness R, Witness R, we are going to take a break of one hour and
3 a half. You will return at 2.30 p.m. During the adjournment, you are not
4 to discuss your evidence with anybody, and that includes members of the
5 Prosecution team.
6 We are adjourned.
7 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 3319
1 --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, continue with your examination.
3 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Now, Witness, just to remind you where we are, you had just told
5 us that you had been called out of the room by virtue of the fact that
6 they were looking for an [redacted]and you say that you recognised
7 someone called Banovic; is that correct?
8 A. It is.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please come closer to the
10 microphone.
11 MR. RYNEVELD:
12 Q. Just come a little closer to the microphone, sir, so they can hear
13 you.
14 Now, sir, where did you go and what happened to you, if anything?
15 A. When I came out, I moved towards a room which I later found out
16 was called number 5. Before it, there was Room 4 and that one was the
17 torture chamber. But when we got there, Banovic did not hit me right
18 there and then. Well, there was some verbal abuses, but when I got there,
19 a woman met me with a hose and she said, "This is a good one," and hit me
20 with that hose and others joined her.
21 Q. Do you know, when you say, "others joined her," what kind of
22 people were there that joined in when this woman hit you with the hose?
23 A. They were all in uniforms.
24 Q. How about the woman, was she in uniform?
25 A. The woman was in a uniform too.
Page 3320
1 Q. Did you, at that time or -- were you able to identify any of the
2 people who were involved in your beating other than this woman?
3 A. Not at that moment. But later on when it was all over, I mean
4 when I was already beaten up and battered, I heard somebody shout, I'm not
5 sure who that was, "Off to that corner." And I went to that corner and I
6 crouched. But how shall I put it, I apologise, but that's how it was,
7 somebody had defecated and I stood in the middle of that and it really
8 stank.
9 And then Kondic came and hit me with his baton a couple of times
10 and said, "Look at this one, he can still stand." But that is not true.
11 One of them -- "Excuse me, this one has shat," but that's not true, it
12 wasn't me. It must have been one of them. And then they sent me to
13 another corner.
14 And if I may add, Hasan Crljenkovic, he was already brought in
15 meanwhile. Unfortunately, he is no longer among the living. They beat
16 him and tortured him, and even though I knew I shouldn't look around me, I
17 did and some said, "You are looking around so as to identify," but that's
18 not what I wanted to do. It was purely instinctive.
19 And then the so-called Faca came up to me. At first he put his
20 pistol in my mouth, and then a knife, too. And I was praying to God to
21 finish me off, not to torture me any more, but he said, "Balija, we're not
22 finished with you. Now off be with you."
23 And I had to pass by them, and they beat me and at first with feet
24 as I was passing by. They were beating me with their feet and their
25 fists. And when I passed by, I thought I'd fall, but had I fallen I doubt
Page 3321
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 3322
1 if I would have ever stood up again.
2 Q. All right, if I can just stop you there, Witness. We're still
3 talking about the same incident when you were called out the first night
4 of your arrival, and you were taken into what was the room beyond Room 4;
5 is that correct? That's what we're talking about?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And --
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. -- there was a woman, a uniformed woman and other soldiers, and
10 you have just in the course of your evidence mentioned someone called
11 Kondic and someone called Faca. Were there any others involved in this
12 beating that you suffered?
13 A. Yes, Banovic. Now, I don't know if he took part in that, but when
14 I was on my way back, when I had passed by them, the one who has said,
15 "Look at this one, he can run," that person, and I guess it was he who
16 said that, and he caught up with me because I was bent with a pen [as
17 interpreted] and he jumped on my back. But I know he meant -- he couldn't
18 have had more than 50 kilograms, which is not much, so I managed to make
19 it into the room --
20 Q. All right.
21 A. -- and I know what they did to me, but why ...
22 Q. Yes, you've told us some of the things they did to you. You told
23 us about being hit with the hose and you were hit with various
24 instruments. How long would you say this beating went on, sir?
25 A. It's hard to say. Between 10 and 15 minutes, not less than that.
Page 3323
1 Q. Sir, while you were being beaten, did they ask you any questions?
2 A. Yes, there were questions, those provocative. Of course, they
3 couldn't without four-letter words, "Fuck your balija. Who did you
4 support?" When I supported Belgrade Partizan soccer club, they stopped to
5 beat me, but that was in stages. They beat me in all possible ways.
6 Q. Ultimately, sir, do I understand after the beating you managed to
7 find your way back to your room, Room 3?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How badly had you been beaten?
10 A. So much that my -- all my ribs were broken. Well, I don't know if
11 all of them were broken, but my whole body hurt, the whole upper part of
12 my body.
13 And I forgot to say that at the time they beat me, that they
14 didn't beat me on the head but all over my body. I do not know -- while I
15 was out, I do not know, they also hit me on my legs. But I'm still
16 suffering consequences, I mean, the upper part of my body.
17 Q. Over the next few days, sir, did further incidents occur? When I
18 say incidents, were you beaten again on subsequent days, and if so, can
19 you tell us about the circumstances?
20 A. Yes. The next evening - I don't know at what time because we
21 didn't have watches, it's common knowledge that they had taken everything
22 - they called me out again. I don't know which one I was, but I was
23 already beaten up, and so they said, "Well, if he calls me or doesn't call
24 me, kills me, doesn't kill me." And they called me out like the previous
25 night, "[redacted], we need you." And of course I knew they meant me, so of
Page 3324
1 course I came out, and the same person then took me over there.
2 Q. When you say the same person -- just a minute, just a minute.
3 When you say the same person, you've mentioned before four different
4 people. Which person took you out?
5 A. It was Banovic.
6 Q. And where were you taken this time?
7 A. I was walking towards the same room.
8 Q. And what happened on this second occasion in this same room?
9 A. Well, I didn't see that female, and there was some others whom I
10 could not recognise because I was taking, I was taking care of myself. I
11 was trying to protect myself so I didn't pay much attention.
12 There were about eight to ten soldiers waiting for me, and they
13 started to beat me straight away with expletives and all the rest. And
14 among other things, when I fell down to the ground, my arm was like this,
15 to the right, because my right arm had been broken. And this one shouted
16 to remove it. I'll never forget that. And I heard it. But instinct told
17 me or something to pretend that I couldn't hear him, but he removed my
18 arm. And I could already see an iron rod prepared, that -- my head was
19 like this down on the concrete, and a blow ensued. Whether I moved or
20 not, I don't know. I don't know how long it lasted. I could hear voices,
21 "Get up," but I was already ...
22 Q. Sir, while you were being beaten the second time did anyone enter
23 the room?
24 A. You mean one of the three civilians or ...
25 Q. Let me rephrase my question, sir. During the course of your stay
Page 3325
1 at Keraterm, did you become familiar with someone with the name of Kajin?
2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. In this
3 situation, this is a very leading question and it is insinuated to the
4 witness whom he should mention in relation to the incident and this
5 follows from the previous question. This is a directly leading question
6 whose name the witness should give. I must object against this form of
7 examination.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: It does seem to the Chamber that this is leading,
10 Mr. Ryneveld and perhaps you would rephrase it.
11 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
12 Q. Sir, you told us that on the second day of imprisonment you were
13 beaten again; is that correct? You've just been telling us about that.
14 While you were being beaten, you say there was about 8 to 10 --
15 JUDGE MAY: Just one moment.
16 MR. RYNEVELD: Sorry.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld, the difficulty is this: You've been
19 endeavoring to get some evidence from the witness who is in Court and has
20 heard all this discussion. To ask your question in a neutral way would,
21 of course, be unobjectionable had it been not with reference to a
22 particular incident. But since it was asked immediately after a question
23 about a particular incident, it must be doubtful whether the witness's
24 answer, if it comes, is unprompted. And I think the fairer course would
25 be to move on. You can ask about Kajin in a general way.
Page 3326
1 MR. RYNEVELD: I have Your Honour's point. I will move on. I
2 suspect I will return to that individual at some later date, but not in
3 relation to this incident.
4 Q. Now, sir, as a result of the beating that you sustained, did you
5 receive any -- what can you tell us, was it of a fleeting nature or do you
6 still suffer today from the injuries that you sustained?
7 A. I wish it was fleeting. I suppose I shall suffer consequences to
8 the end of my life.
9 Q. What kinds of difficulty do you have as a result of that beating
10 today?
11 A. I have headaches, hemorrhoids, and that is another effect of it.
12 My back hurts. I have to have massage. But thanks to [redacted]authorities
13 who extended adequate assistance to me but it is of no avail. Whenever
14 the weather changes, I hurt. My arm is broken. I've already told you
15 that. I've undergone surgery.
16 Q. Let me move on, sir, to an incident two days before what has been
17 referred to as a shooting incident in Room 3. Can you tell us, sir,
18 whether there were any windows in Room 3 when you were in it?
19 A. There were.
20 Q. Were those windows open or closed, generally speaking, when you
21 first came into the room?
22 A. When we came, they were closed.
23 Q. Did that situation change at some point?
24 A. Yes. A detainee from another room came, I don't know whether from
25 number 1 or number 2. I knew him. "Sejho" was how they called him. I
Page 3327
1 don't know what his last name was. So he came and removed the window and
2 I thought it was good so we could have some fresh air and that that was
3 the reason for it, but later on it turned out that it was in preparation
4 for something else.
5 Q. Now, you've told us, sir, that when you were locked into the room
6 on the 20th of July, that you did not receive any food; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. How long did you go before you received your first meal?
9 A. I got my first meal at 1600 on the 24th of July. So it was the
10 fourth or fifth day, from Monday to Friday.
11 Q. And where was that meal served?
12 A. Up there where they were distributing food next to Room 2.
13 Q. And when you -- were you permitted out of the room in order to go
14 and get the food, I take it, I mean it's obvious you had to go from Room 3
15 to the area where the food was served; is that correct?
16 A. It is.
17 Q. When you were out, did you see anything that was different on the
18 pista?
19 A. Well, I looked around mechanically not knowing what would happen,
20 and I saw this machine-gun nest and a machine-gun placed there, but I
21 thought, well, it's natural. It's the army. They are protecting us or
22 guarding us. But later on, it turned out that it was something else.
23 Q. Could you tell which direction the machine-gun was pointing?
24 A. Room 3.
25 Q. Where was the placement of this machine-gun in relation to Room
Page 3328
1 3?
2 A. In the direction of Room 3.
3 Q. Had you seen that machine-gun on an earlier occasion like when you
4 arrived or in the days between the 20th and the 24th of July?
5 A. No, I did not see it.
6 Q. Did you notice anything else unusual when you were allowed outside
7 to get your food?
8 A. Yes. They told us -- first they said, "You have two minutes to
9 have your meal." Well, two minutes is a very short time, and we had that
10 soup and went back to Room 3. A group of men went inside, but a soldier
11 ordered -- or rather closed the door and told the rest of us to stop.
12 Q. When you say "the rest of us," you and how many other people?
13 A. About ten.
14 Q. What happened next?
15 A. Well, that soldier lined us up again, put us in a line and began
16 to interrogate who had weapons. Of course, nobody responded. Who didn't
17 have any will suffer no consequences; who did have some, we'll have a
18 special conversation with them. And two -- and I'll never forget that.
19 Whether he knew them or not I don't know, but I don't think so, though,
20 and he said that he -- that they -- that one, that man's face was
21 familiar, that their faces were familiar, and they kept silent. Had they
22 answered, perhaps it would have ended differently.
23 Q. Do you know who that soldier was who told you to remain behind?
24 A. Yes. It was Kajin. As a matter of fact, yes, it was Kajin who
25 also introduced himself, who said he was Kajin, who was not ashamed of his
Page 3329
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 3330
1 name or, rather, his nickname.
2 Q. Had you seen this individual before the war?
3 A. No.
4 Q. How often would you have seen this individual during the course of
5 your detention at Keraterm?
6 A. I can't give you an exact number of times, but on different
7 occasions, three or four times, perhaps, but it was enough for me to see
8 him once and to get frightened and to remember that face.
9 Q. Can you describe this individual to the Court?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I object, Your Honour. It is not
12 clear. What is the question, when to describe this witness, to describe
13 him what he looks like today if the witness knows, or to describe him at
14 the time when he allegedly saw him in Keraterm? I don't think the
15 question is precise, and I think it needs to be clarified.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Generally, it's to the time when he saw him in
17 Keraterm.
18 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. The person that you refer to as Kajin who was speaking to you and
20 the other detainees, could you describe that individual to the Court, what
21 he then looked like?
22 A. Yes. Well, like this, he had short hair or, rather, dark hair.
23 While it was July and perhaps that is why he cut his hair so short, but
24 it's his business, really. His face is stuck in my memory. I can never
25 forget it because one cannot forget ever if one suffered such consequences
Page 3331
1 in their hands.
2 Q. Can you tell us approximate age or height or weight or body build?
3 A. Well, a sportsman. He was tall. Now, as for weight, well, say
4 about 80 kilograms.
5 Q. Approximate age?
6 A. Well, was he 30? Thereabouts, 30-ish.
7 Q. You say that you would recall his face. Was there something
8 unique about his face that assists you to recall what he looks like?
9 A. He looked dark, dark and, if may say so, rather good-looking, but
10 something -- I didn't have any contact with him or against him, and that
11 is not why I'm testifying here against him. Nor did I have any bad
12 experience with him, but I do not know if he did anything to others.
13 Q. Yes. That's not the issue, sir. Do you -- did you ever see this
14 person's photograph shown to you since 1992?
15 A. No, no.
16 Q. Did you ever see his photograph or depiction on television since
17 1992 and coming to court today?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Sir, do you feel that you would recognise this individual if you
20 were to see him again?
21 A. I think I would. Quite certainly, yes, I would.
22 Q. I would invite you, sir, to look around the courtroom today and
23 tell us if the person you say was Kajin is in the courtroom today, and if
24 so, where is he?
25 A. I've already looked at him during the break. I took a glance at
Page 3332
1 him. I don't want to act out anything. I'm quite clear on who it is, and
2 I can point to him. He's in the middle over there next to the policeman.
3 Q. You're pointing to the back wall, are you, sir?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. There appear to be six seats against the back wall, three of which
6 are occupied by policemen. Including the policemen, going from left to
7 right, which seat is the person that you say is Kajin sitting in?
8 A. In the fourth place.
9 MR. RYNEVELD: For the record, the witness identified --
10 A. From this side.
11 MR. RYNEVELD:
12 Q. Yes. From left to right, he's in the fourth seat; is that
13 correct?
14 A. Yes, but the hair has done something to him, but yes, that's the
15 man.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. RYNEVELD: For the record, the witness identifies --
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I have an objection
19 to the transcript. He said, "But he has sort of changed a little bit."
20 That's what the witness said, generally speaking, and those words were not
21 translated.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: What line is that, Mr. Petrovic?
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] The witness said it in B/C/S and it
24 was not introduced into the transcript, but it should have been in line 24
25 15:03:30.
Page 3333
1 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
2 Q. Now, this individual that you say was Kajin, while he was speaking
3 to you and the fellow detainees, can you tell us anything about his
4 demeanour, how he appeared to you to be?
5 A. Well, whenever he would question us, in my opinion, he was tipsy,
6 he was the under the effects of alcohol and he liked to show his strength
7 with respect to us. But he always repeated the same things over and over
8 again, if anybody had weapons, that he would talk to them in his own way.
9 If we didn't have weapons, we wouldn't have any problems, "I am so and
10 so. Everybody knows me." That kind of thing.
11 Q. Sir, I'd like to move on, if I may. After you had had this
12 conversation with this individual by the name of Kajin, were you returned
13 to your room?
14 A. Yes, we went into Room 3.
15 Q. And when you went into the room, sir, did you have a particular
16 spot where you were able to go?
17 A. Yes, because I was beaten up, my friends made a little room for me
18 so that I could sit underneath the window to get some air, get some
19 more -- a little more air. That kind of thing.
20 Q. Was there any water in the room and, if so, what happened to it?
21 A. There was a barrel, however, somebody had taken it out. I don't
22 know who. But the barrel was no longer there. It had been taken out at
23 about 8.00.
24 Q. And was -- were you locked in for the night at some point?
25 A. Yes. Somebody locked us in. Who did, I don't know, but one of
Page 3334
1 them did.
2 Q. Sir, what's the next thing that you recall happening that
3 evening?
4 A. At one point, because there were mostly elderly people around me,
5 I felt that there was something not quite all right with them. They
6 started saying some things. They started praying to God to save them,
7 things like that. And I also felt some changes as if it was difficult,
8 difficult for me to breathe and some of the people would murmur some
9 words.
10 Amongst other things, they started arguing. Some people started
11 to sort of command, issue orders when they were thrown in there. I felt
12 this difference with the elderly people first, and then the rest of us who
13 were a bit younger. We were all a bit younger there.
14 Q. Could you tell why you felt different?
15 A. Well, we knew that they had thrown something in. I know -- knew
16 that they were sort of poisonous gas of some kind but I didn't know what
17 kind but I was in the army and I know something about that. And I know
18 that I put the shirt that I had on as a sort of protection. It helped me
19 to take this for longer. I don't know ...
20 Q. What happened eventually?
21 A. Well, there was general panic and people entreated them not to
22 throw these things in, not to kill us. I was lying down myself. I wasn't
23 able to move. And some of the people started fighting, the more
24 pressure. There was and this affected them, these poor people who were
25 with me. And they started storming the door, but --
Page 3335
1 Q. Who started storming the door?
2 A. The people started arguing amongst themselves, fighting amongst
3 themselves. Some even fought amongst themselves.
4 Q. Are you talking --
5 A. Yes, yes, the prisoners. And then when I say "they," I mean the
6 Serbs. When I say "they," I mean the Serbs, the Serb army. So they
7 responded with a burst of gunfire and at one point, the people did manage
8 to break down the door. I don't know -- I know when Besim Fazlic a friend
9 of mine and many others, he said, "[redacted], brother help me. I've been
10 wounded in five different places." So this is a dilemma for me. I didn't
11 know what to do. My life was in question.
12 At one point I sat down. As I was sitting underneath the window,
13 I was all crouched up like this and I felt I couldn't take it any longer.
14 I said goodbye to my wife and children, and I don't remember the details
15 anymore but I know there was shooting, and let me repeat there was several
16 bursts of gunfire. I heard that over here. Now of course you can't -- we
17 were under the influence of all this, of everything that was going on.
18 Q. Sir, did -- at some point, did you lose consciousness?
19 A. Yes, I did lose consciousness, and what I remember and what I can
20 never forget is that I thought about my wife and children. And that's
21 when I lost consciousness and I woke up afterwards.
22 Q. When you woke up the next morning, where were you?
23 A. I was in the corner by the window.
24 Q. What's the first thing that you recall seeing or hearing upon
25 awaking?
Page 3336
1 A. Well nothing. I got up and I saw -- I saw one corpse next to
2 another. And some people -- I saw some people taking something out, but I
3 must say that for a moment when I came to, for a moment I thought that I
4 was in Keraterm and then there was another moment when I thought that I
5 was in my brother's cellar in Rakovcani. But that was the result of the
6 effects of probably those poisonous gases -- well, not probably but most
7 certainly. However ...
8 Q. Did you see anyone ministering to your fallen colleagues?
9 A. Yes, it was my neighbour who is a paramedic. And unfortunately, I
10 am to say that he is no more. He helped as best he could. He would give
11 people water drop by drop on their lips, and their chests began to expand
12 and they began to breathe. But as far as Senad Crljenkovic, I could say,
13 and we called him Senci is what had he called him, he gave him water drop
14 by drop. I know that, but unfortunately he expired. It wasn't enough.
15 Q. Sir, I --
16 A. And there were others.
17 Q. Yes. I'm not going to ask you to try to relive this incident at
18 this point. I'm going to simply ask you by way of a summary question,
19 eventually, sir, did you see that there were piles of bodies as a result
20 of this shooting incident?
21 A. Yes. They were lives -- people who were alive. They were alive
22 but wounded. But all this was -- they were sort of in a drugged state. I
23 don't know how to express myself better than saying that they were in sort
24 of a drugged state. Some of them were taking out some of the dead.
25 Q. Did you ultimately see what happened to the dead and the wounded?
Page 3337
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 3338
1 A. Well, I saw them being taken out of Room 3 through that aperture
2 to the truck.
3 Q. And did the truck haul those bodies and wounded people away?
4 A. Yes. It hauled the people away in an unknown direction. And some
5 people went off who were supposed to identify them because they said that
6 these people would be identified and handed over to their families,
7 whereas the wounded they said would be taken to hospital. That was the
8 information that reached us then.
9 Q. Do you know whether the people that were taken away were ever seen
10 again?
11 A. Unfortunately not.
12 Q. Sir, after the truck left, what happened to the remaining
13 prisoners in Room 3?
14 A. As they sort of halved us, more or less, the first order was, "All
15 of you come out with your hands up behind your backs," and I still don't
16 know how I was able to put my beaten hand up behind my back, but that's
17 what I did. I don't know how I managed to. And we went for our morning
18 exercise, which is what they called it, and we knew what that was. That
19 was mistreatment.
20 We went out of Room 3, and I still remember a voice, and that
21 voice saying -- a well-known voice, a voice that was familiar, he says,
22 "Look at [redacted]. He's still alive." And that was the sign that I had
23 been condemned to death. However, when we went outside, I didn't pay
24 attention, really, very much because I was still under the influence of
25 all this stress situation. But when we did go outside, we laid down on
Page 3339
1 the ground, lined up with our hands like this and our face was -- we were
2 face downwards to the ground and turned towards Room 3.
3 Q. How long did you lay there?
4 A. It's difficult to say exactly, but about 4.00 or four hours. It
5 seemed an eternity to me. It was July, and, you know, it's very hot at
6 that time of the year in our country.
7 Q. What was happening to your room while you were lying outside?
8 A. Some of the people, I don't know who selected them, who picked
9 them out, but they were washing the blood. They were hosing down, washing
10 down the blood from the previous night in the room. And on that day they
11 brought us in some pallets for the younger ones who had survived so that
12 they were given priority. They could sort of sleep and sit down on these
13 pallets, wooden pallets.
14 Q. Sir, moments ago you told us that you heard a voice referred to
15 you as [redacted]being still alive. Did you recognise whose voice that was?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Are you able to tell us whose voice it was?
18 A. I looked at that young man. It was the voice of -- well, his
19 nickname was Pele.
20 Q. Now, sir --
21 A. I know him 'cause he played football, too, so that's how I
22 recognised him.
23 Q. Sir, while you were lying outside, did you see if anything
24 happened to a neighbour of yours?
25 A. Well, no, but I heard voices and moans and cries. I knew that it
Page 3340
1 was Adem Fazlic.
2 Q. And what --
3 A. Now, whether it was --
4 Q. What did you hear?
5 A. I heard the cries from that -- coming from that man whom they were
6 torturing.
7 Q. That's the person you just named, Adem Fazlic?
8 A. Yes. He's a neighbour of mine. I knew him. He's -- he was about
9 55 at the time, 55 years old, thereabouts.
10 Q. Now, sir, what happened next after you were lying there?
11 A. We weren't allowed to raise our heads because if we opposed them
12 in anything, you knew what you would get. They would kick our heads, and
13 that was the sign that you would have to get up, that the person being
14 kicked would have to get up to go up to the barrel, which was also
15 intended for torture. They would place his head in the water for a time.
16 However, when my turn came, they kicked me, not very hard, but
17 they kicked me in the head a little, and I got up. And just as I had
18 gotten up, they said, "Lie down," and I had to obey. That's what you had
19 to do. And then there was a hit, and I turned round and looked at the
20 person that I recognised - and you don't have to ask me who - and he hit
21 me again. He tried to hit me, but I managed to avoid the blow, and I went
22 in to the dormitory so that I avoided that torture barrel on that
23 occasion.
24 Q. You say that I don't have to ask you who. Do you know who it was?
25 A. Yes. It was Sikirica. I recognised him already when we had got
Page 3341
1 up. I tried to come out, but this gentleman told me to stand there a
2 little longer. I don't know the rules. I looked round the hall, and of
3 course I saw that -- the gentleman, if I can call him gentleman.
4 Q. I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused. When are you talking about? Are
5 you talking about back in July of 1992, or are you talking about a more
6 recent incident?
7 A. No. When I said that I know the identity of that man if you were
8 to ask me, I jumped the gun. I looked at that Sikirica, and I saw him.
9 Q. When?
10 A. When you said there would be a break. I got up and I looked
11 round, and I know how I felt at that particular moment when I ...
12 Q. I understand. You're saying that when we broke for lunch, you
13 looked around and saw the person who -- is that what you're saying now,
14 and that was just earlier today?
15 A. Yes, that's right. Precisely that way.
16 Q. So during the break, you saw an individual --
17 A. That's what I'm saying now. It was today when we were going to
18 take a break.
19 Q. And I'm going to ask you to turn back to July of 1992. When you
20 turned around then, this individual, what did he do?
21 A. He hit me with a sort of wooden baton or truncheon. We call it a
22 Palija. It's this long, roughly. I don't know how I managed to get up,
23 but I did and he wanted to strike me a second time but I managed to avoid
24 the blow. And I avoided the barrel used for torturing us and they
25 screamed at me, "Stop. Stop." But I didn't pay any attention to them.
Page 3342
1 And later on they didn't call for me that day.
2 Q. When you say you avoided the barrel, how did you do that?
3 A. Well, I dodged the barrel with the water. There was a barrel with
4 water as I said and it was used to torture those individuals, us, those of
5 us who were there who were in Room 3. But I managed to dodge that.
6 Q. All right, sir. Now, I'm going to the point that you made
7 earlier. You said that during the break today, you recognised an
8 individual that you say was Sikirica. I'm going to ask you how often had
9 you seen this individual during the course of your time at Keraterm?
10 A. I would see him -- well, not very often. He didn't come to Room 3
11 especially but when he walked around the compound, I would see him. And I
12 think I've already said that I received information from Nurija
13 Crljenkovic, he was a friend of mine.
14 I don't know whether he was his friend, that that was that person,
15 a person that I knew from earlier on but I didn't know his
16 identification. I didn't know his name. But he didn't appear in Room 3
17 often. I would see him in passing. But I didn't dare look while I was
18 outside. I just happened to glance under my eye if I was on my way to
19 lunch, then I happened to notice someone by taking a cursory glance or
20 people who came up like Banovic, Kajin, and so on.
21 Q. Sir, this individual that you say struck you when you were in
22 front of Room 3 with a water barrel, was that the same person that you had
23 dealings with the morning you checked into Keraterm camp, the person that
24 you had a conversation about identification with?
25 A. Yes.
Page 3343
1 Q. To the best of your recollection --
2 A. Yes. That's that person on the 20th of June when I went in, and
3 the incident at Hambarine where we went to fetch the woman. That's that
4 person.
5 Q. Now, you've already told us that you recognised him -- this
6 individual in the courtroom today --
7 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, in my submission, the evidence which
8 he's given does not lay a sufficient foundation or sufficiently
9 satisfactory for this type of identification to take place. If Your
10 Honour looks at what he said, he doesn't appear to have seen him terribly
11 often in the camp and when he did, it was in a very sidelong sort of way
12 where he didn't want to look at him particularly closely, "I would just
13 glance under my eye if I was on my way to lunch."
14 In my submission, the tenure of that evidence is that it's not a
15 satisfactory foundation for this kind of identification.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, would you inquire how often he saw
18 Mr. Sikirica.
19 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.
20 Q. Sir, during the time, how often would you say that over the whole
21 time from that first incident near Hambarine, to when you arrived at the
22 camp, to the time that you last saw this individual either before or after
23 the incident outside the Room 3, how often would you say you saw him?
24 A. Three times. I saw him directly three times. In the course of
25 the day, when Nurija Crljenkovic told me that that was that person, and
Page 3344
1 these other detainees knew about him and therefore there was no dilemma
2 who Sikirica was. When we knew quite naturally amongst ourselves, we were
3 afraid for our lives and we would warn each other, "Take care of that one
4 and mind the other one." And I would see him around, but I underline that
5 he didn't come into Room 3 often, but I did see him around in the course
6 of the day and when I was passing outside.
7 Q. In addition to these three specific occasions that you mentioned,
8 are you telling this Court that you saw him from time to time over the
9 period of time that you were in custody?
10 A. Yes, from time to time.
11 Q. On those occasions, are you able to give the Court an idea of how
12 frequently in total, in addition to these three times that -- specific
13 occasions that you would have seen him?
14 A. Three or four times.
15 Q. So a total of three or four plus the three specific incidents; is
16 that correct?
17 A. Correct. Correct.
18 Q. And on the day -- on the 20th of July when you checked into
19 Keraterm camp, did you have an opportunity to see him for longer than a
20 sidelong glance?
21 A. That day?
22 Q. Yes.
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 3345
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 3346
1 Q. So this incident you say that you are relying on in order to say
2 today that you can identify that man?
3 A. Yes.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Ryneveld.
5 MR. RYNEVELD: Might we just edit that last comment because he
6 repeated something that was said in closed session.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that will be edited. Thank you.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber holds there is a sufficient basis for
10 the identification to be made.
11 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Sir, would you indicate if this individual that you say was
13 Sikirica is in the room today and, if so, where is he?
14 A. Yes. He's the second in order.
15 Q. And what you're saying is the back row, there are six seats
16 starting from the left to right, he is in the second seat?
17 A. From this side --
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. -- as I'm looking?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. There's the policeman and then Sikirica.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. RYNEVELD: Might the record reflect that the witness has
24 identified the accused.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
Page 3347
1 MR. RYNEVELD:
2 Q. Sir, when you -- when this incident outside Room 3 was finished,
3 were you returned to Room 3?
4 A. On the 24th? Yes.
5 Q. And when you went back in, was there more room inside?
6 A. This was the night between the 24th and the 25th. It was on the
7 25th when we were halved. There was room to lie down, to stretch your
8 legs. No one was standing. There was enough room. And unfortunately, we
9 had to relieve ourselves there. That was the orders we got later.
10 Q. Sir, did you know someone by the name of Ismet Duratovic?
11 A. Very well. [redacted].
12 Q. And what, if anything, did you see in relation to him at Keraterm?
13 A. First of all, I think that evening they brought in the barrel with
14 the water, and then they threw some bread through the window for us. Of
15 course, we grabbed it immediately, the bread, and we drank the water. We
16 ate the bread and drank the water, and as we did so, some of us lay down
17 and fell asleep.
18 Later on I saw Ismet Duratovic taking his clothes off. He was
19 naked. There was Husnija Duratovic there, too. He was from Tukovi. He
20 was also naked. That is the effect that this had on us, the water and the
21 bread they gave us. So that's how we behaved. We had to fall asleep.
22 Q. Did something happen the following day in relation to your
23 [redacted]?
24 A. Yes. In the morning, I don't know what time it was, they asked --
25 somebody opened the door and said, "Who is Ismet Duratovic?" But most
Page 3348
1 probably they knew. I don't know how because we were all sort of dazed.
2 "Who is Ismet Duratovic?" And he was still naked. This Ismet Duratovic
3 who was supposed to be the extremist leader. "And who is the accomplice?"
4 I wondered of what, but that is what they said. And whoever finger was
5 pointed at had to go out.
6 Q. Who did the finger pointing?
7 A. Ismet Duratovic as his accomplice, in connection with what I don't
8 know, but those people who gave those orders know what they meant and what
9 they did to us.
10 Q. How many people did he point to?
11 A. About 15.
12 Q. And what happened to them?
13 A. I know among the last of them was a retarded man from Hambarine.
14 I think he was in his 30s. I remember his voice, "Not me, not me," and I
15 heard a burst of fire.
16 Q. Do you remember his name?
17 A. Behzar, Behzar is his name. Behzo, everyone called him Behzo
18 Pehlic. That's the name.
19 Q. And what happened to these 15 mean?
20 A. I didn't see them being killed, but obviously I heard the burst of
21 fire and, after that, single shots. I couldn't really count how many
22 there were. I was frightened for myself.
23 Q. Did those men return?
24 A. No, never.
25 Q. Could you tell how far away from your room the shots were? I
Page 3349
1 mean, were the sounds of the shooting close by or far away, or what?
2 A. Close by the room. One could hear it, both the burst of fire and
3 the single shots that were fired.
4 Q. Now, sir, I understand that ultimately you went to the hospital on
5 the 4th of August, 1992; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, correct.
7 Q. What can you say about your physical condition and your bodily
8 functions in the interim period before you went to hospital?
9 A. Yes. I had pain all the time. I didn't report that because those
10 who did would go away the next day, apparently for examination, but they
11 didn't come back as far as I know. At least, not to Room 3.
12 So on the 3rd -- no, on the 4th -- actually, on the 3rd, the
13 so-called Zizin - he also had a nickname, he's a Bosniak from Prijedor -
14 he came up to me and asked me personally, "Do you need any assistance?
15 Will you apply?" And I said "no, thank you" because I knew what was
16 happening.
17 Then the next day in the morning, my arm had been infected. It
18 had swollen up. I had mental problems, which was quite normal, so I
19 decided to apply, for better or for worse. However, when I went to apply
20 in the morning, a soldier met me there, a bearded one - I have to say that
21 because that's how he was - and he asked me for my name. I told him my
22 name, and then he said, "Who are you fucking around with," and he cursed
23 my mother. But there was a medical technician there without an arm, and
24 then I showed him my hand, my arm, and he was surprised when he saw it,
25 and he said, "Stand to one side."
Page 3350
1 Q. All right. I'm going to just back you up for a little bit, sir.
2 During your time at Keraterm, did you lose any body weight?
3 A. Yes. I weighed myself the second day in hospital, and I saw that
4 I had lost 26 kilograms. I had had 95 and then I had 69, which is very
5 hard to imagine, but that's the truth.
6 Q. And sir, between the incidents of the Room 3 incident, shall we
7 say, the shooting incident that you've told us about, and going to the
8 hospital, had you left your room at all, the room, Room 3?
9 A. Before the shooting?
10 Q. No, after the shooting before going to the hospital.
11 A. Yes. Occasionally I would go for lunch, and if I had to -- and
12 you could feel it in the air, that some shifts were better than others,
13 that you could go out and look around. And I once went up to Room 1. I
14 didn't perhaps mention that. From a guy I got a tomato and a piece of
15 loaf, and I've maybe forgot to mention that.
16 Q. Now, sir, did they bring any new prisoners into Room 3 after the
17 Room 3 incident that you've told us about?
18 A. Yes. Yes. They would regularly take out 10 to 15 men. It is
19 difficult to tell you the exact number. They can -- they will know that.
20 People were coming from Carakovo and Ljubija, Rizvanovici, yes. Carakovo,
21 of course.
22 Q. When they brought these new people to Room 3, did they also take
23 them out and do things to them?
24 A. When they brought these people from Ljubija -- anyway, they opened
25 the door. We recognised those persons. I think there were about 12 of
Page 3351
1 them. We had to sing those songs like, "Who is talking, who is lying,"
2 and others. And they beat them. Then some soldiers were going back to
3 Gradacac, and they thought this was something nice like a sports match.
4 They tortured those poor people and then about an hour later -- anyway,
5 sometime later they would shove them into our room.
6 They would stay there for about an hour, and that is how I learned
7 that my brother had been killed at the Rudar stadium where I use today
8 play football.
9 Q. This is information you got from the new arrivals; is that
10 correct?
11 A. What information?
12 [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]. Now, you started to tell us about being
20 taken to the hospital and you told us some of the details of that and
21 you've told us that they saw that your arm was infected and told you to
22 stand to one side. Were you ultimately taken to the hospital in Prijedor?
23 A. Yes. We waited --
24 Q. Were you the only one?
25 A. No, there were 25 of us. We waited there for about half an hour
Page 3352
1 to one hour. I don't know what it was. No examination was needed. They
2 were talking amongst themselves. I don't know what. We went to the
3 hospital. This took about 10 minutes roughly.
4 When we got off, I saw the hospital. I was glad to see the
5 hospital. And five or six of the soldiers got off, Sikirica was among
6 them. He was the most important as far as that was concerned. He took us
7 with a rifle pointed at us and we reached the doctor and were examined.
8 Dr. Resic examined us. He decided that the three of us should be
9 hospitalised. When the examination was over, the rest went back and we
10 went, I think it was to Room 7 on the second floor. We were accompanied
11 all the time by Sikirica. These others were making remarks to the effect
12 that we were extremists, that we shouldn't go to hospital but somewhere
13 else.
14 Q. What others made those comments?
15 A. Soldiers who had come with Sikirica, who had actually escorted us
16 there.
17 Q. Now --
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, we are coming up to the time for
19 the break.
20 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. I'm not quite finished with this paragraph,
21 but certainly right after the break I will continue.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves.
23 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, there is a matter I'd like to raise
24 before you have your break so that it's possible for you to discuss it
25 during your break.
Page 3353
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 3354
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
2 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, after my learned friend started -- the
3 passage where my client was to be identified, if you remember, it took a
4 little while to do it because of something which was said, perhaps
5 unexpectedly, by the witness.
6 Between then and when the identification was actually made, I
7 received a note from my client, and I'm going to read it because it's
8 self-explanatory and to the point. "Ask the Prosecutor or the Judges why
9 does the technician always put our pictures on the monitor about the
10 identification? It's not fair."
11 I assume from that that when the issue of identification is being
12 raised, a picture of that particular defendant is being broadcast on the
13 monitor. Bearing in mind, if that's correct, bearing in mind that there
14 is a monitor in front of the witness, I would respectfully suggest that
15 that is both a dangerous and objectionable thing for the technicians to do
16 if the question of identity is being raised.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not true. I apologise.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I am told that those representations are not
19 shown on the screen in front of the witness.
20 MR. GREAVES: I'm anxious to be reassured as to how that is to be
21 guaranteed. You can see my concern. There plainly is a monitor there.
22 I'm anxious to know that there is no possibility of any witness being able
23 to see those things being done.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will investigate this. Mr. Ryneveld.
25 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, I have no way of knowing what my friend --
Page 3355
1 whether there's anything to it because my monitor is to the transcript.
2 So I am not able to see it at the time.
3 MR. GREAVES: Mine too. I always watch the transcript rather than
4 pictures that are being broadcast. So I would have raised it earlier had
5 I known about it.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber will investigate it during the
7 break.
8 MR. LAWRENCE: May I raise a matter which is tangential to that.
9 It may be that the witness doesn't see the pictures on the monitor, but I
10 think the witness sees the text, and I have noticed as the case has gone
11 on in the last few days --
12 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please do not interrupt, Witness.
14 MR. LAWRENCE: Not this witness, be it said but last week, I
15 noticed that one or two of the witnesses when being challenged about
16 something that they had said looked down to see what it was they had said
17 on the monitor. Now, that seems to me to be somewhat undesirable, and I
18 wonder if that is a matter which the Court could think about and look
19 into. It may be that it's not necessary, in the normal course of events,
20 for the witness to have the monitor in front of him on at all. It's to
21 assist the Court. It's to assist counsel, but it shouldn't affect the way
22 a witness gives his evidence. And if it was decided that the monitor
23 should not, in general, be on when the witness is giving his evidence,
24 then maybe that would deal with both my learned friend's problem and what
25 I think may be something that shouldn't be happening anyway with regard to
Page 3356
1 the printed text.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. We'll take note of your submissions.
3 Witness R, we are now going to take a break until a quarter past
4 4.00. During the adjournment, you are not to discuss your evidence with
5 anybody and that includes the members of the Prosecution. We are
6 adjourned until quarter past 4.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 3.55 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 4.22 p.m.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I should say that the Chamber has carried out an
10 investigation into the matters that were raised prior to the adjournment.
11 We are satisfied that the technical arrangements are such that the witness
12 will not see the photograph of the accused when the accused sees it at the
13 particular time that has been mentioned. We have satisfied ourselves
14 about that.
15 As for the transcript, the witness ordinarily does not have a
16 transcript. He has no transcript on the, on the screen. There is a
17 transcript on the ELMO, but of course the witness does not see that unless
18 the Chamber has reason for the use of the ELMO or unless the Chamber
19 requires that the transcript be placed on the screen for the witness,
20 which would be a rarity considering that the -- considering the difference
21 in language.
22 Mr. Ryneveld.
23 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Witness, just before the break you told us that you had been
25 escorted to the hospital in Prijedor, and was this yet another occasion
Page 3357
1 when you had an opportunity to see Mr. Sikirica for a period of time?
2 A. Yes, precisely, as we were entering the hospital with another five
3 or six soldiers, and he was present there. And he took us into the
4 hospital, all of us, and then we waited in the passage to be examined, and
5 we were examined there by Dr. Resic.
6 Q. Yes, I think you've told us that. I don't need you to repeat
7 that, sir.
8 Eventually you and three other -- you were one of three patients
9 who was permitted to stay behind in the hospital; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. And your escort, which included Mr. Sikirica and others, left; is
12 that correct?
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. Did you ever return to Keraterm after being taken to hospital, or
15 did you go right from hospital to another location?
16 A. I went to the Trnopolje camp on the 18th of August.
17 Q. So had you been in hospital, then, for 14 days, sir, upon being
18 admitted there on the 4th of August?
19 A. Yes, that is correct.
20 Q. And you were discharged from hospital on the 18th of August and
21 you were transferred to Trnopolje; is that correct?
22 A. It is.
23 Q. While you were at hospital, did you hear about the closing of the
24 Keraterm camp?
25 A. Yes, we did. Soldiers also came, and I have to mention a page who
Page 3358
1 came and gave us his name. One of those present knew him, and we asked
2 that page, "Well, and what are further prospects?" And he said, "The
3 worse that can happen to you is that you will go to third countries."
4 We then -- and somebody called Spaga also came, but all they asked
5 us was about weapons. And there were also my people whom I used to work
6 with, they also came.
7 Q. This is while you were in hospital?
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. While you were in hospital, did you hear from other sources what
10 happened to the inmates at Keraterm?
11 A. Yes, I heard that the Keraterm camp was closed down on the 5th of
12 August.
13 Q. And what happened to its inmates?
14 A. Much later, I learned that on the 5th of August, men were called
15 out from Room 3 and put into buses. I was to be amongst them too, that
16 is, I was called out. That is what people told me. I couldn't know that
17 because I was in hospital. And that is how I escaped, avoided my death
18 because two buses left the Keraterm camp.
19 Q. And you heard your name was read out for those who were to get on
20 those buses to go; is that correct?
21 A. It is, yes.
22 Q. I see. Moving on then, sir, when you were at Trnopolje, did you
23 see anyone during your stay at Trnopolje who you had seen at Keraterm?
24 A. I did. I saw Mr. Banovic. He would come in a Mercedes to bring
25 some people, Muslims. Why he did that, he knows. I didn't come close.
Page 3359
1 I saw, among other people Faca, so-called Faca whose face I don't
2 know -- whose name I don't know but his face. And he stood near my tent
3 so I couldn't really walk by without seeing him. And I thought something
4 and I told myself I'll ask him for a cigarette and make as if I didn't
5 know him at all. So I did come up to him and asked him for a cigarette
6 but he said he was a non-smoker and he didn't have any. And he said that
7 he'd been around there for a long time and that I should ask other inmates
8 who would tell me how -- what a good man he was and that he would give me
9 a cigarette if he had any.
10 Q. All right, sir. And is it fair to say that you were finally
11 released from Trnopolje on the 1st of October 1992 and left that
12 particular area; is that correct?
13 A. It is. It is correct. 74 days later.
14 Q. 74 days after you were originally arrested on the 19th or 20th of
15 July; is that correct?
16 A. The 20th of July.
17 MR. RYNEVELD: Would you answer my learned friends, please. Thank
18 you.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you Mr. Ryneveld. Mr. Greaves.
21 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:
22 Q. Witness R, could you help me, please, about this: Before June
23 1992, did you -- were you involved in politics in any way in your country
24 whether as an activist or as a political party member?
25 A. Yes, I was a member of the League of Communists from 1976 until
Page 3360
1 1985 and -- but that is a different matter. I was also on the reserve
2 police force if that means -- if that is what you wanted to ask me.
3 Q. No, I'm not going to ask you about that just for the moment. If
4 we can deal with other matters, please. Did you do your national service,
5 I think, around 1972 in the JNA?
6 A. That's right, in Kikinda. I can give you the garrison if you
7 wanted.
8 Q. What branch of the service did you serve in, Witness R?
9 A. Infantry, mechanised infantry. And I worked at the gate as a
10 guard. Now why that is again ...
11 Q. Witness R, after your release from Trnopolje, did you serve at all
12 in the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And at any stage, have you had or do you continue to have any sort
15 of relationship with the intelligence and security services of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina?
17 A. No.
18 Q. I'm now going to ask you about the police reserve. After you had
19 completed your compulsory military service, you joined, as you've told us,
20 the reserve police. It's right, isn't it, that that was something that
21 you could opt to do instead of going on to the ordinary JNA reserve; do
22 you accept that?
23 A. Yes. Yes.
24 Q. What was behind your personal decision to opt for the police
25 reserve as opposed to the ordinary JNA reserve?
Page 3361
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 3362
1 A. Oh, what was it? Well, I suppose because I was fit, because I was
2 a sportsman. Also, I was a rather calm person, poised person, and that is
3 the kind of people they needed. People who enjoyed priority, those were
4 selected people; not everybody could join the reserve police force. And I
5 was with that special unit. Later on, I was assigned to a manoeuvreing
6 unit.
7 Q. Was the commitment, in other words, the amount of time that you
8 had to spend each year, was that less than you would have had to spend in
9 the JNA?
10 A. I was with the police force as -- with a specialised unit, that
11 manoeuvreing unit for some years. I don't know how long. And then I was
12 assigned to duty in my company. In the company I was the responsible
13 clerk, but that I never -- that is, once I was there on duty, but that
14 was ...
15 Q. And when you describe yourself as being part of a manoeuvreing
16 unit, may we take it from that that it was a quasi-military kind of unit
17 that you were assigned to?
18 A. Not to my mind. No, not then, no. No. At that time, no.
19 Q. What kind of manoeuvres were you carrying out?
20 A. We mostly went to Mrakovica, underwent some drills with active
21 policemen who were my superiors, mostly of Muslim, Islamic religion. I
22 can tell you the name of my superior if you want me to. And when we had
23 those drills, then a military police came from somewhere. And I heard
24 that somebody -- Vikic came, and there was those special police when that
25 Vikic - and Vikic is quite well known, I think - when he came.
Page 3363
1 Q. Thank you, Witness R.
2 MR. GREAVES: May we go into private session, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
4 [Private session]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 3364
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [Open session]
8 MR. GREAVES:
9 Q. Witness R, I want to ask you very briefly about matters which
10 occurred between May and the date of your arrest in your area. I think
11 it's right that on occasions soldiers would come to the village, and they
12 would have as a motive for their visit stealing property and houses. Is
13 that correct?
14 A. Well, not houses in Rakovcani, I wouldn't say that, but property,
15 yes.
16 Q. On one occasion some of the soldiers spoke briefly with your son
17 and asked him about his age. It's right, isn't it, that your son was not
18 taken away or arrested on that occasion?
19 A. He was not, no. He was not taken away or arrested, but I was
20 afraid that something might happen because all sorts of things were going
21 on. At that time, I was afraid.
22 Q. Of course. We understand that. When you yourself were arrested,
23 again, your wife and your children were left at home. That is right,
24 isn't it?
25 A. They did stay at home. They did not leave. In the second part of
Page 3365
1 the house away from the road where the kitchen was and we usually spent
2 our time, she moved over to a smaller room with children and with a
3 neighbour, Sefika.
4 Q. The people who arrested you were soldiers, and by that do you mean
5 soldiers from the JNA or the army of Republika Srpska?
6 A. I don't have to think about that. Those men were in uniforms, in
7 olive-green/gray, the colour that the Yugoslav People's Army used.
8 Whether they were of the reserve force or what, but be that as it may,
9 they did what they did.
10 Q. And would this be correct that effectively the men who were
11 detained along with you were essentially men of military age; do you
12 accept that?
13 A. Mostly, yes, militarily-able, adult.
14 Q. And it's right also that you, and indeed the majority of the
15 people who were with you, whilst you were on your way to Rizvanovici, you
16 were not beaten; is that correct?
17 A. No, but we sang songs, I mean they did not beat me. I don't know
18 about others. Because I did not look around so I don't know, because it
19 was a very long haul.
20 Q. You had been searched upon your arrest, had you not?
21 A. Yes, but I did not hand over my identity card, that is, I handed
22 over some papers, but I kept the identity card.
23 Q. I didn't ask you that. What personal documents, as you put in one
24 of your newspaper articles, what personal documents were taken from you at
25 that time?
Page 3366
1 A. Documents, well, I didn't really think much about that, but let me
2 try to remember. I remember I had some razor blades which I put in my
3 pocket but they mostly -- they were mostly asking for personal documents,
4 that is right, but I think I didn't give them the identity card then.
5 Q. The buses which were used to transport you to Keraterm, were they
6 full, all of the buses, when they were sent off to Keraterm?
7 A. I can't know that. I can only tell you about the bus I was in.
8 Q. What about the bus that you were in?
9 A. Yes, it was full.
10 Q. How many buses in all, Witness R?
11 A. Five or six buses. I didn't feel like counting them, but that was
12 roughly how it was. We got on, and then we turned around near
13 Rizvanovici.
14 Q. And all the buses arrived at Keraterm at about the same time; is
15 that right?
16 A. I can't claim that either, whether they arrived. I know that when
17 I entered Keraterm, I know what happened to me and where I went and that I
18 went to Room 3. I was terrified, and I can tell you today that I
19 regretted going but I'll come back to that later. That's beside the point
20 now.
21 Q. On the way, one particular man was taken off the bus. It's right,
22 isn't it, that his selection was apparently completely random; is that
23 right?
24 A. Baki Selimovic, yes.
25 Q. I'd like to ask you now, please, Witness R, about the occasion
Page 3367
1 when you saw the man Sikirica at a checkpoint. It's right, isn't it, that
2 that was about 10 days before you were arrested; do you accept that?
3 A. I think about 20 days.
4 Q. Do you recall that you, in connection with these matters, made a
5 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor on the 23rd of September of last
6 year, Witness R?
7 A. I did make a statement.
8 Q. And did you not say in that statement, Witness R, that you had
9 "... previously worked for the Prijedor Red Cross about 10 days before my
10 arrest," and that you recalled at that time seeing Sikirica at a
11 checkpoint? Does that refresh your memory, Witness R?
12 A. Sir, you are insulting me. I told you that I worked for the Red
13 Cross and I don't know exactly, because the presiding officer chose me and
14 I was probably the suitable person, and I joined him and I worked with
15 him. And if I had known what would have -- what was going to happen to
16 me, I never would have gone there no matter what.
17 Q. I certainly don't mean to insult you in any way. Please would you
18 be so kind as to deal with the question which I have asked you. It's
19 quite simple. When you told the Office of the Prosecutor that it was
20 about 10 days before your arrest, does that help you to refresh your
21 memory as to when that incident of seeing Sikirica at a checkpoint took
22 place?
23 A. I didn't specify exactly when that was. I always said "about that
24 time." I didn't know what was going to happen and what would happen to me
25 in the -- would happen to me in the future. But when I see a person once,
Page 3368
1 and especially if you experience something bad or in fear, then you don't
2 forget such a person.
3 Q. What it comes to is this, isn't it, Witness R, that you are unsure
4 of when it was that you saw this man at the checkpoint and that it may
5 have been as little as 10 days before your arrest or it may have been a
6 bit more. Isn't that what it comes to?
7 A. 10 to 20 days.
8 Q. Thank you. The location of the checkpoint, please, Witness R,
9 would this be correct that it was at a fork in the road which leads
10 between Prijedor and Ljubija and the fork to the road leads to Rizvanovici
11 and Rakovcani; is that right?
12 A. The checkpoint was where people were sleeping. Some were to the
13 side, to the left side, others to were to the right. I think it is Ramo
14 Fikic's house where they had their checkpoint, between Kasim Fikic and
15 Ramo Fikic, that is where they met us, and Banovic went with us in the
16 trailer.
17 Q. You will appreciate, I am sure, Witness R that those of us in this
18 courtroom do not have the advantage you do of knowing where everybody
19 lives. So please help us. Is it right that the checkpoint was situated
20 on the road between Prijedor and Ljubija at the point where it forks, and
21 the fork road leads to Rizvanovici and Rakovcani and it may otherwise be
22 known as the checkpoint at Hambarine.
23 A. For me, that day when I noticed him, the checkpoint was between
24 Ramo Fikic and Kasim Fikic's house. That is where I saw those soldiers
25 who were talking to my superior. For me, the checkpoint was on the
Page 3369
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 3370
1 asphalt -- Ljubija to Prijedor road.
2 When we were returning with the corpse, they were shooting at us
3 from there. So it wasn't on the side towards Rizvanovici, this
4 checkpoint. And when they shot at us, we turned to this side, towards the
5 right.
6 Q. Do the two gentlemen you have mentioned, Ramo Fikic and Kasim
7 Fikic, do they leave near to the junction of that main road and the road
8 that leads to Rizvanovici?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was it manned by soldiers, soldiers and police, or police only?
11 A. They were uniformed. For me, they were soldiers. At the time, I
12 didn't think about it, whether it is this or that. They were all in
13 uniform.
14 Q. Had you passed through that checkpoint many times, Witness R?
15 A. Through Hambarine?
16 Q. Yes, we've been talking about that particular checkpoint, Witness
17 R. Did you pass through that checkpoint many times or not?
18 A. No.
19 Q. So is this the only occasion when you were there, or were there
20 others?
21 A. You see -- just a moment, let me try to recollect. We were going
22 for the body. We were to pick up this body. The bad man was called
23 Nedzad, I think his surname was Zec, or that was his nickname. We were
24 looking for him. Banovic went with us in the tractor. I can't forget
25 that. He was standing on the tractor like a show-off. We didn't question
Page 3371
1 him or anything. We were just carrying this body, and we turned back. We
2 returned.
3 Q. Yes. But apart from this occasion, were there others, be they few
4 in number, when you had been through this particular checkpoint,
5 Witness R?
6 A. I think with the convoy we passed there.
7 Q. Did you have an opportunity on those occasions to observe what
8 function the checkpoint was performing? For example, were they simply
9 stopping vehicles and checking identities or doing anything else?
10 A. I was not in such a position.
11 Q. Did you go through other checkpoints in the area between May and
12 the time of your arrest, Witness R?
13 A. Yes, I did go to Prijedor to get my salary of 50 Deutschmarks, in
14 Prijedor.
15 Q. And was the function of those checkpoints --
16 A. In that period.
17 Q. -- principally to check the identity of those passing through
18 them?
19 A. It should have been.
20 Q. Do you know, please, I want to ask about two people. Somebody
21 called Karanfil Aliskovic?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Was he at Keraterm with you?
24 A. Known as Stanko. He was.
25 Q. In Room 3?
Page 3372
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. You have to remember to keep your voice up because
3 the -- and sit up close to the microphones; otherwise, it wouldn't pick
4 you up. All right?
5 The second name about which I wish to ask you is Nihad Karadzic,
6 was he with you in Keraterm? Karagic, sorry.
7 A. Nihad Karagic? Karadzic?
8 Q. Karagic.
9 A. Karagic.
10 Q. My pronunciation has failed me on this occasion.
11 A. No, the name doesn't ring a bell.
12 Q. I'd like to turn now, please, to the incident of the killings in
13 Room 3, Witness R, please. Something happened, some substance was
14 introduced into the room which caused people to behave in a strange way.
15 Is that right?
16 A. Yes, that is right. Now, whether there was just one thing that
17 was thrown in or more, I don't understand those things, but I know that
18 there was something.
19 Q. And is this correct, that some of the outward symptoms of that
20 substance being introduced, some people became drowsy and sleepy? Is that
21 right?
22 A. That evening on the 24th of July, after all that, I, too, became
23 drowsy. Now, what the effect was on others, I can't say.
24 Q. You were able to observe that many of your fellow detainees were
25 behaving in a very strange manner, were you not?
Page 3373
1 A. Yes. And that they were crying and moaning and praying to God and
2 begging those over the fence - I am referring to the Serbs - not to kill
3 us, but they seemed to be intensifying the tempo.
4 Q. Some people started to have hallucinations and claimed that they
5 were seeing devils and things like that, isn't that right?
6 A. Yes. They started saying things, praying to God in a way. This
7 was probably -- but not probably, certainly the result of those poisonous
8 gases.
9 Q. And others began to talk in a nonsensical fashion; isn't that
10 right?
11 A. There was instances of that, too.
12 Q. And still others started to fight one with another, did they not?
13 A. Yes, but this was already later when the effect started. That is
14 correct, yes, but it would never have occurred to them to fight amongst
15 themselves if they were not under the effect of something.
16 Q. That may well be right, but the fact is that they were indeed
17 fighting themselves. And the situation at this time inside Room 3 was
18 completely chaotic, wasn't it?
19 A. Yes. The men rushed to the door, but this was later when they
20 were overcome. I felt this, too. They dashed the door and they broke it
21 down.
22 And it must be the effect of those poisonous gases.
23 Q. And there were a large number of people trying to break through
24 the door, were there not?
25 A. I don't know whether there were a large number of people, but
Page 3374
1 anyway, we heard the bursts of fire. I heard the fire. I don't know who
2 was hitting with his head and his hands, but somebody was, and they
3 obviously broke down the door. When we saw, I think it was the left
4 part. I don't think, I'm sure. The left part of the door was broken
5 down, and that is through that opening that they found the killed and
6 wounded.
7 Q. It was only when the door was forced open that the shooting began;
8 isn't that right?
9 A. No. I don't know when the door was broken down. I couldn't say
10 that when I was under the window, to the right where the window was. When
11 it was broken down, I don't know. Bursts of fire were heard several
12 times. When the door was broken down, I don't know.
13 Q. You see on the 23rd of September last year, Witness R, you told
14 the Office of the Prosecutor this: "The detainees finally forced the door
15 open and the bursts of fire started." So that was your position last
16 year; isn't that right?
17 A. Finally, that I had said "finally"? I don't believe I said
18 finally.
19 Q. That's what I'm putting to you from your statement which you
20 signed as being correct and true to the best of your knowledge and
21 recollection.
22 A. Maybe it's a mistake in the translation.
23 Q. The substance which had been put into the room and which caused
24 everybody to behave in this bizarre fashion, that substance had a
25 long-lasting effect, did it not, Witness R?
Page 3375
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Indeed many people were still affected by it the following day and
3 in the days which followed; is that correct?
4 A. I know how I behaved. As for others, I don't know.
5 Q. Did you observe anything which told you that others were still
6 suffering from the effects of this substance, whatever it was, Witness R?
7 A. Would you repeat the question, please?
8 Q. Yes. Did you observe anything in other people which told you that
9 they were still suffering, a long time after the substance had come into
10 the room, still suffering from its effects? In other words, behaving in a
11 bizarre fashion.
12 A. As far as that day is concerned, the 25th, the 25th, if you're
13 talking about that day, we went outside as I have explained, the order was
14 hands behind your head and go to the grass facing Room 3. What could we
15 expect? The man next to me, grey-haired, was saying, "[redacted], it seems to
16 me that beans are being cooked somewhere in Rizvanovici." I thought of
17 that too but I tried to console him, he and myself at the same time, that
18 things would be better and words to that effect. But the next evening or
19 that evening or rather the next day, I didn't see that man anymore in Room
20 3. Now how they behaved, I -- but it's only natural that they should
21 behave like that because they were tortured.
22 Just imagine lying there for five minutes, let alone hours, and
23 then to be hosed down with water. I thought that the hose was meant to
24 assist us, but later I realised it was the system they applied: Hot,
25 cold.
Page 3376
1 Q. The following morning, you, yourself, still felt as if you were
2 drugged and you watched the scene lethargically as nothing was going on;
3 isn't that right?
4 A. The next, you mean the 25th, when the truck came and when I woke
5 up?
6 Q. On the morning of the 25th.
7 A. Or are you referring to -- I was talking about the night of the
8 25th to the 26th. You are confusing me with your questions. The 25th in
9 the morning, and what I was saying a moment ago was on the 26th. You are
10 confusing me with these questions. We are talking about one thing and
11 later on you ask me that morning. You have to tell me what you mean.
12 Q. Thank you for clarifying that you were talking about this
13 gentleman talking about beans being cooked in Rizvanovici on the 26th.
14 That's helpful. I am now talking about how you felt on the 25th, and if I
15 confused you, I apologise to you.
16 A. No, this was on the 25th, that day.
17 Q. Now, in addition, there were quite a lot of people, weren't there,
18 hallucinating about food at this time; do you accept that?
19 A. About food, I know I was hungry and the others were hungry too.
20 As to how people behaved, they know, you and Your Honours can imagine how
21 we felt on the 26th.
22 Q. You see what you put into your newspaper article is that
23 "... because they did not give us any food, we," in other words, you and
24 other prisoners, "started hallucinating about food," didn't you, on the
25 25th?
Page 3377
1 A. Yes. That is correct that one started imagining things, that this
2 man Hasan Ramastagic, known as Sidi, he said that. And he was to the
3 right and this other one was to the left. These are things that cannot be
4 forgotten, you see.
5 Q. Did other people indicate, say things to you which told you that
6 they also were hallucinating about things?
7 A. To me, you mean?
8 Q. To you or in your hearing.
9 A. Yes. There were some who were talking about that night, that they
10 had a good fight and they were wondering why I know those people were sort
11 of peace-loving. They are sportsmen. They were from my club who were
12 saying that.
13 MR. GREAVES: I'm moving on to another topic and I see the time.
14 Is that a convenient moment, please?
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: This afternoon, we will, with the cooperation of
16 the interpreters, go a little longer.
17 MR. GREAVES: I was rather hoping you wouldn't say that. I have
18 an appointment that I have arranged for just after 5.30 and -- obviously
19 it's a personal matter, and I would defer to Your Honour if it's thought
20 to be right.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: In the view of the fact we did announce 5.15, we
23 will stop.
24 MR. GREAVES: Thank you. I've got to move home in the next couple
25 of months and I'm now looking for a home to live in so it's to do with
Page 3378
1 that. You'll understand that's quite important.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We don't want you to be homeless,
3 Mr. Greaves.
4 Witness R, we are going to adjourn until tomorrow morning at
5 9.30. During the adjournment, you are not to discuss the evidence with
6 anybody and that includes the members of the Prosecution team.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
9 at 5.15 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday
10 the 22nd day of May, 2001, at
11 9.30 a.m.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25