1 Thursday, 27 September 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.37 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Will the registrar please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav

9 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

11 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, if I may have the floor. Just a quick

12 information for this Trial Chamber. My client, Mr. Milan Simic, was

13 experiencing tremendous problems yesterday. First of all, their

14 transportation came almost one hour later than the end of the trial; so

15 it's 2.15. When he came to the UN, the other detainees have been in there

16 having this, I don't know, walking out, so he was not able to get himself

17 into the bed almost until 4.00 in the afternoon.

18 He has these bedsores starting again, and again this morning

19 because the guards are changing all the time, he is experiencing problems

20 getting into this courtroom because of this platform.

21 I mean, we are really -- he's doing his best and we're doing our

22 best just to expedite this trial, but these things are really not going in

23 this direction because what I'm afraid of is that things will go from bad

24 to worse and then we are going to have to, I don't know, sort of adjourn

25 for some time in order that he can recover. Thank you so much.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It is important for you, counsel, to always

2 bring these problems to the attention of the Chamber because the Chamber

3 is aware of the medical condition and the health problems that your client

4 is having.

5 The Registry is doing everything possible, but these problems that

6 you have brought to the attention of the Chamber will be looked into by

7 the Registrar as well as the Detention Unit so that this is not repeated

8 and the discomforts are not repeated to your client. Thank you.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution is continuing.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

12 WITNESS: DRAGAN LUKAC [Resumed]

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Examined by Mr. di Fazio:

15 MR. DI FAZIO: May the witness be shown Exhibit P12, please. It's

16 the small map depicting the area in the vicinity of Bosanski Samac and

17 adjoining municipalities, please. P12.

18 Q. Mr. Lukac, can you see that map on the ELMO?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. Do you know of a place called Batkovic?

21 A. I heard of that place.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Could the usher just move it over briefly so that

23 the town of Batkovic can be seen clearly?

24 Q. In the course of your incarceration, did you ever go there or were

25 taken there at all or near it?

1 A. I did not go there, but Batkovic is close to Bijeljina, where I

2 was.

3 Q. Thank you. I've finished with P12.

4 Yesterday, in your evidence, you described events that occurred in

5 garage number 3. Did Stevan Todorovic participate in any beatings of

6 either you or the people you were incarcerated with in garage number 3?

7 A. Yes, he did.

8 Q. What sort of beatings?

9 A. Yesterday, I described the beating by Todorovic on Franjo Barukcic

10 [redacted] while we were in the garage. However, he continuously beat

11 prisoners, and this usually took place in the SUP building.

12 Q. How can you say that if you were incarcerated in garage number 3?

13 What is your source of information?

14 A. [redacted]

15 [redacted]. Also, later

16 on, when we were detained in the prison cells in the SUP building, we

17 could hear quite well the beatings that were taking on, either in the

18 hallway or in the duty room in the police station, and the voice of

19 Mr. Todorovic could be heard very well.

20 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, you also described prisoners being brought

21 into the SUP from time to time. Where were they housed in the SUP

22 building? We've heard where you were housed, but what other areas, if

23 any, were prisoners housed in the SUP?

24 A. These detainees were held in the offices; that is, on the premises

25 adjoining the prison cells where we were held. And over a period of time,

1 a number of prisoners were also kept in the basement of the SUP building.

2 Q. What information do you have as to the ethnic background of these

3 prisoners?

4 A. All these men were of Croatian or Bosniak ethnicity.

5 Q. I now want to concentrate on the time when you were transferred

6 from the garage number 3 into the cells. You've told us -- inside the SUP

7 building. You've told us that you and Perkovic, I think, were put in one

8 cell, that there was a cell next to you. Who was housed in that cell?

9 A [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 Q. Did that leave you alone in the cells, or did you still have a

13 cell-mate?

14 A. In the following period, that is, until I was exchanged on 4th of

15 September, I remained alone in the cell and Mr. Barukcic remained alone in

16 his cell and no other prisoner was brought and housed in those cells

17 during that period.

18 Q. Towards the end of July of 1992, was Mr. Todorovic still seen

19 around the SUP building?

20 A. I did not see him, but I heard his voice, which to me confirmed

21 that he was present for periods of time in that building.

22 Q. Did he beat anyone, as far as you could tell?

23 A. The beatings that he carried out, and the other policemen did

24 too. However, I think it may be important to say that in the initial

25 stage of the war when these beatings were carried out by members of the

1 special police who were stationed in Bosanski Samac but who had arrived

2 from Serbia, now the beatings were carried out by the policemen from the

3 Bosanski Samac area, which means that by now, they were adequately trained

4 to perform such acts.

5 Q. How can you comment that the local policemen were now engaging in

6 beatings? What information to that effect do you have, or what did you

7 observe that leads you to that conclusion?

8 A. I'm led to that conclusion by the fact that these beatings took

9 place on the premises of the police station on a daily basis. One could

10 hear that very well in the cells where we were because it was very close,

11 and I did see those policemen there either as guards in the police station

12 or on the basis of their being in this building. I also received

13 information to that effect from prisoners who were bringing in food for us

14 or who communicated with us in some other way.

15 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Antesa?

16 A. Antesa is really the man whose full name is Anto Brandic, and I

17 knew him from before the war.

18 Q. Was he imprisoned?

19 A. For a while he was held in the office in the SUP building; that

20 is, the police station, across from the hallway; that is, across from the

21 prison cells where I was held. And from what I know, he was there for a

22 couple of days, because I personally saw him when I went to go to the

23 restroom, because we had to go out and walk down that hallway.

24 Q. What fate did he meet?

25 A. I believe that on the 29th of July, late in the evening, this man

1 was taken out of this office to the room which is used by the duty officer

2 at the station. He was beaten there by a number of persons, among whom

3 was - I know this for sure - Mr. Stevan Todorovic, and the policeman

4 Slavko Trivunovic.

5 This beating went on for quite a long time in this room. And

6 after he was beaten, he was taken out to the backyard of the police

7 station where the beating continued. Then, to my knowledge, he was

8 brought back to the office where he had been held and he died that same

9 night from the consequences of this beating.

10 That night, other prisoners were also beaten, a large number of

11 them.

12 Q. Could you hear what was going on from your position in the cell?

13 A. One can hear that quite well, especially his moans, because I

14 assumed that he was being beaten very severely because of the loudness of

15 his voice. I think that while he was being beaten in the backyard, half

16 of the town could hear him.

17 Q. You mentioned in one of your answers just now a gentleman whose

18 name is Slavko Trivunovic. Just tell the Chamber, did you know that man

19 before the war, or did you come to find out who he was during your

20 incarceration?

21 A. I did not know that person before the war. He was a younger man,

22 maybe 20 to 23 years of age. Based on information I received later, he

23 was from a Serb village in the territory of Bosanski Samac. And while I

24 was in the garage, I had an opportunity to see him in the backyard of the

25 police station. Based on what I know, on the information I received from

1 other prisoners after I had left detention, this -- he was a member of the

2 Serbian police who was one of the men who was among those who mistreated

3 people the most, and his specialty was pulling teeth out of their jaws

4 with just common pliers. He would collect these teeth in a container and

5 kept them as trophies.

6 Q. What was his apparent function or duty or role at the SUP?

7 A. I don't know if he had any position, any commanding position in

8 the -- within the Serbian police, but I know that he was a member of the

9 Serbian police.

10 Q. Would he frequent the police station, or was he just there from

11 time to time on an apparently random basis?

12 A. I don't know how frequently he was there, but I did see him on

13 that one occasion, and later on I could hear his voice quite often in --

14 on the premises of the police station in Bosanski Samac.

15 Q. In the time that you were incarcerated in Bosanski Samac, either

16 before were you taken away or upon your return, either in garage number 3

17 or in the cells, did you ever see, actually see, or speak to any men who

18 had had their teeth pulled?

19 A. While I was there, I did not talk about it, but after I left the

20 camp, I did, with a number of such persons, in fact.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I want to show the witness

22 a number of photographs. I've had an opportunity of speaking to Defence

23 counsel this morning regarding the problem of leading the witness by the

24 appearance of the tab or label on the photograph. I've informed Defence,

25 and they have unanimously, to the man, agreed that they have no objection

1 to my showing the exhibit that's before the Court so long as yellow

2 stickers have been placed over the English to avoid any leading of the

3 witness. Court officers have very kindly done that. So I now want to

4 show those photographs to the witness, and I don't think there will be any

5 objections to my doing that.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I see no objection. You can go ahead.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. May the witness be shown the bundle of

8 photographs, Exhibit P9, I believe it is -- P14, I'm sorry.

9 Q. Now, the first photograph I wish to show you is F45 of P14. F45.

10 First of all, what does that depict, Mr. Lukac?

11 A. This photograph depicts the building of police station in Bosanski

12 Samac, and the photograph is taken from behind the building. This is the

13 building. This is the wall that encompasses the backyard of the station.

14 This is the building of the municipal building in Bosanski Samac.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. May the witness be shown F50 of P14,

16 please.

17 Q. What does that depict?

18 A. This photograph depicts the complex of buildings of the

19 Territorial Defence. This is the building where the prisoners were kept

20 and this is the entrance gate to the compound. And by the way, this

21 complex is directly across the street from the police station building.

22 Q. When one was on the first floor of the police station looking out,

23 is that the view one would have had?

24 A. Yes. One could see it very clearly from those windows.

25 Q. Thank you. And there appear to be two doors, corrugated iron

1 doors with crossed -- crossbeams cutting off the courtyard from the

2 street. Do you see those doors?

3 A. I do.

4 Q. Were those doors the same doors -- I'll withdraw the question and

5 rephrase it.

6 In April 1992, were those doors in that position?

7 A. Yes, they were.

8 Q. Thank you. Would you now look at photograph F51. Do you

9 recognise that place?

10 A. This is the duty room of the police station; that is, this is

11 where the duty officer would sit while I was detained in the SUP

12 building.

13 Q. Were you ever interrogated in that room, or were you interrogated

14 in other rooms about the building?

15 A. Not in this room.

16 Q. Thank you. Please look at photograph F52. What does that

17 depict?

18 A. This photograph shows the prison rooms in the Bosanski Samac

19 station where I was for a time.

20 Q. Just to be precise - I'm not clear from your answer - if they were

21 the very cells about which you've given evidence of, namely, the cells in

22 which you were incarcerated --

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. -- which one were you kept in?

25 A. In this one, the first one.

1 Q. You see there's a window at the end of the corridor with

2 criss-cross bars on it. What did that look out onto?

3 A. The window looks out onto the yard of the police station. But

4 while we were there, these -- these windowpanes were not here but just the

5 criss-cross bars. So this part had been removed, and only the bars were

6 there. And these pieces of furniture here, the table and the chair, were

7 not there. The corridor was completely empty.

8 Q. Were the doors the same, the same mesh and metal doors?

9 A. Yes. Everything else was the same.

10 Q. Please look at photograph F53. What does that depict?

11 A. This photograph shows the yard of the police station. This is

12 where the vehicles are. That's the yard. And this is the police station

13 building.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, the photograph that I showed to you previously,

15 the one depicting the two cells, had a window that you could see at the

16 end of the corridor. I don't need to show it to you at the moment. Can

17 you see the window that was depicted in F52 in F53?

18 A. Yes. Yes. It's this window here.

19 Q. And would you please quickly have a look at F54? What do they

20 depict?

21 A. This photograph depicts the garages that are in the yard of the

22 police station.

23 Q. And was garage number 3 in sequence? In other words, not visible

24 in the photograph, but if you continue on to the left, you would have come

25 to garage number 3?

1 A. Yes. Here we can see only part of the door of that garage. This

2 is it here.

3 Q. Thank you. Please go to photograph F55. I think my learned

4 friends will [sic] object if I suggest that that must be garage -- room

5 number 3 of the garage. Would you agree with that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. It apparently depicts the interior of that room, and it's got a

8 lot of clutter and stuff, objects in the room. What was the room like

9 when you were actually imprisoned in room number 3 of the garage?

10 A. These objects were not there then. The garage was completely

11 empty. And as I said, when we were brought in, there were only two

12 outside tyres, car tyres there.

13 Q. What did you sleep on?

14 A. We slept on the concrete floor.

15 Q. How many of you were in there?

16 A. There were four of us.

17 JUDGE SINGH: You said you slept on the concrete. What were the

18 weather conditions like during the time?

19 A. It was in June. At that time, it rained very often, as far as I

20 can remember, and it was very cold at night.

21 MR. DI FAZIO:

22 Q. What did you have to cover yourself?

23 A. As I explained earlier, we had a blanket. Two of us had one

24 blanket, and the other two had a second blanket.

25 Q. Did you have any sort of floor covering, a piece of cardboard or a

1 foam mattress, anything at all, a piece of cloth?

2 A. As I said, when we arrived, one of the policemen brought in a

3 cardboard box which we laid flat on the floor, and we lay down on that

4 cardboard.

5 Q. Thank you. Please look at photograph F56 of P14. In the

6 foreground -- sorry.

7 JUDGE SINGH: Just one minute more. Now, imagine you're in this

8 garage. What about air? Are those slats, or not, through which you get

9 ventilation, that you see in the garage door there?

10 A. That garage was covered with hardboard. The air was damp, but

11 lack of air was not a problem, because these garages are not built of

12 solid material, so they are not really hermetically closed.

13 MR. DI FAZIO:

14 Q. Following on from His Honour's question, is that corrugated iron

15 that makes up the doors?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. Okay. F56, please. At the top of the photograph can

18 be seen what seems to be a river. What river is that?

19 A. The River Sava, the border between Bosnia and Herzegovina and the

20 Republic of Croatia. This is it here.

21 Q. And is that photo apparently taken from one of the upper floors of

22 the SUP building?

23 A. Certainly, yes.

24 Q. Would you please look at photograph F65? What does that depict?

25 A. This photograph depicts the door leading into the police station,

1 which is entered from the street. This is it here. And then this is the

2 corridor, and the corridor leading down the length of the building on the

3 ground floor. And this is the staircase leading upstairs within the

4 police station building.

5 Q. If you stood on the ground floor that can be seen there, or the

6 lower floor, and you walked down the corridor that you showed, the

7 corridor that seems to lead underneath those stairs that you can see,

8 would that take you to the cells in which you were imprisoned?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. And now finally, can you be shown photograph F67,

11 please. Have you ever seen such insignia?

12 A. I don't remember.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. I have seen parts of this, the four S's, the Serbian colours, but

15 I don't remember seeing this as a whole.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you very much. I've finished with the

17 photographs.

18 Q. From your cells in the SUP building, were you able to see out

19 through that window that we saw in the photograph, into the backyard, at

20 least partially?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you ever see cars, vehicles, in the yard?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. What was happening in respect of those cars?

25 A. These cars were used by the Serb police to go about their

1 business, the things they did at the time. Some of the cars were being

2 repaired by a group of prisoners there, in the yard. They also washed the

3 cars and did similar things.

4 Q. Do you have any idea as to the origin of these cars, whose cars

5 they were? I should say the ones being washed by prisoners and being

6 repaired by prisoners.

7 A. Well, there were different vehicles there. Among them there was a

8 number of vehicles which I assume were confiscated by force from citizens

9 either in the town or on the roads in the Bosanski Samac municipality.

10 One of these cars was mine.

11 Q. Why do you make that assumption, that they were confiscated by

12 force? What can you tell us that leads you to that conclusion?

13 A. Well, what leads me to this conclusion is the fact that a large

14 number of the vehicles that turned up in that yard were civilian vehicles

15 and had not belonged to the police before the war. On the other hand,

16 very often members of the special police came to that yard. They were

17 from Serbia, and as far as I could gather, the prisoners were repairing a

18 number of vehicles for them, and I assume that some of these vehicles were

19 subsequently taken to Serbia by these special policemen.

20 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Savo Cancarevic?

21 A. Savo -- I know him. He was a policeman from before the war, and

22 when Bosanski Samac was occupied, he became the commander of the Serb

23 police force in the Bosanski Samac station.

24 Q. Did you ever see him in the backyard?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Did you ever see him in the backyard when cars were there being

2 repaired?

3 A. Yes, I saw him. And I know that he addressed the prisoners who

4 were repairing these vehicles. I think he asked about a certain vehicle.

5 He wanted to know who it belonged to, and they replied that it belonged to

6 one of the special policemen from Serbia. He then made a comment, and he

7 said, "When they go back to Serbia, the only vehicles that will be left

8 for us in Bosanski Samac will be bicycles."

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honour pleases, at this point I would like

11 to play the 14 or -- it's about 14 minutes tape. It's the excerpts from

12 the tape that was prepared by one of the Prosecutors in this -- who

13 handled the matter before in the past, and the Defence have seen it. I

14 think the result of yesterday's discussion was that they consent to its

15 being depicted as long as there is no audio component to it, and I'm sure

16 that the technical staff can make sure that it's simply removed.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number for it, please?

18 THE REGISTRAR: These excerpts from the video depicting the areas

19 around Bosanski Samac shall be marked for the record as Prosecutor's

20 Exhibit P26.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Just for the sake of clarity for the technical

22 room, the video has a label affixed to it starting with the word

23 "Excerpts." It's got a number on it, V0003446. It is not the video --

24 the second video that should be in the technical room dealing with

25 exchanges. Thank you.

1 [Videotape played]

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Just pause there, please.

3 Q. What's that building?

4 A. The photograph in this video shows the police station building in

5 Bosanski Samac.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue.

8 [Videotape played]

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Would you pause there, please.

10 Q. What does that depict?

11 A. What we can see here is part of the complex belonging to the

12 Territorial Defence, the gate leading into the yard of the Territorial

13 Defence.

14 Q. And just to either side of the gate that we discussed earlier from

15 one of the photographs of two buildings, on the left-hand side of the gate

16 there is a building with some sign above the window. You can see part of

17 it there. Was that part of the TO?

18 A. That wasn't part of the TO. It was a shop which was in that

19 building before the war. It was a shop for spare parts for cars, but the

20 building belonged to the Territorial Defence.

21 Q. Thank you. And what about the building on the right? Was that

22 part of the TO?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue.

1 [Videotape played]

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Just pause there.

3 Q. What's that?

4 A. This is the door leading into the Bosanski Samac police station.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Just pause there.

9 Q. The camera went up some stairs. Which stairs are they?

10 A. These are stairs leading from the ground floor of the police

11 station building upstairs. Now we are upstairs on the first floor of that

12 building.

13 Q. At the very end of the corridor is an open door and what seems to

14 be an office. Whose office was that?

15 A. That is the offers of the chief of police in which I worked before

16 the war.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue.

19 [Videotape played]

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Please pause there.

21 Q. That's obviously panning around an office. Do you recognise the

22 office?

23 A. Yes. This is my office. Everything is the same as it was before

24 the war except for one of those two telephones. It used to be green, and

25 now I see it's red.

1 Q. If you look through those windows, it's not very clear in the

2 film, but what would one see?

3 A. Through this window, we can see the complex of the Territorial

4 Defence buildings and part of the TO yard.

5 Q. Were you ever interrogated in that office?

6 A. Yes. These were the -- this was the conversation between the

7 special policeman with the red beret. We were sitting here at this

8 table.

9 Q. Prior to the war, prior to April 1992, did you have a diploma, a

10 piece of paper, or a document, a diploma?

11 A. Yes. I had a diploma because I had graduated from university, and

12 this was in the metal cupboard that you can see in this picture.

13 Q. Thank you. Do you have any idea where it was at the time that you

14 were interrogated?

15 A. When I was brought into my office, I saw that the door of this

16 metal safe had been broken open and my diploma had been torn up, and I

17 could see pieces of it lying on the carpet.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue.

20 [Videotape played]

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Just pause there.

22 Q. It's just a tad late, but you saw what the camera panned over.

23 Was that the TO?

24 A. Yes. It's a view from this office.

25 Q. Thank you.

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue.

2 [Videotape played]

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Just pause there, please.

4 Q. That's obviously another office that seems to be attached to your

5 former office. Whose office was that?

6 A. That's the office used by the inspectors of crime-prevention

7 unit.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue

10 [Videotape played]

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Just hold it there, please.

12 Q. Again, can you see the TO from that window?

13 A. Yes. Through the window, you can see the yard of the TO.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue.

16 [Videotape played]

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Just hold it there, please.

18 Q. That -- the camera apparently left the second office and is now in

19 a third office. Whose office is that?

20 A. That was also an office used by the inspectors of the

21 crime-prevention unit.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue.

24 [Videotape played]

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Just hold it there, please.

1 Q. Is that part of a tree growing outside the SUP building?

2 A. I can't exactly recall, but I think, again, this is the view of

3 the street and the yard of the Territorial Defence.

4 Q. In the time that you were kept in the TO building initially, when

5 you were arrested, did you know if those particular gates that you can see

6 in the shot were kept open or closed, or have you no idea?

7 A. They were kept detained. I had an opportunity to see that when I

8 was taken out to the yard when we -- where we were beaten, or when I was

9 taken to the -- to be questioned in the police station building.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry, Your Honours, I missed the part of the

11 transcript. Was it that they were kept detained or closed?

12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Yes.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm grateful to the Chamber.

14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I wonder, Mr. di Fazio, if we can find out what

15 does it mean that the doors were kept detained.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I'll clarify that. I'm grateful to Your

17 Honour.

18 Q. Can you just tell us, were the -- I wasn't quite sure of your

19 answer. Were the doors kept open or closed, as far as you were aware, in

20 the period of time when you were in the TO building?

21 A. The gates were closed.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: If we could return now to the video and please

24 continue.

25 [Videotape played]

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The vehicles were not in the yard

2 at that time.

3 MR. DI FAZIO:

4 Q. Thanks.

5 A. The ones we see inside.

6 [Videotape played]

7 MR. DI FAZIO:

8 Q. I'd ask you just to have a look at that office. Perhaps we could

9 pause there. Can you tell us what that office is?

10 A. This should be the office of the chief of the police station, even

11 though the chairs now are different from the ones that were there before,

12 from what I can remember.

13 Q. I may have misunderstood your evidence a little here, and I just

14 want to be clear about it. The film showed earlier an office that you

15 said was your office when you were chief of police. Is this also a chief

16 of police office?

17 A. The one that I referred to before was the office of the chief of

18 the crime prevention unit, and this office is the office of the chief of

19 the police station of Bosanski Samac, which means the number-one person,

20 the overall chief.

21 Q. I see. Thank you very much.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue.

23 [Videotape played]

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Just pause there, please.

25 Q. Is that a view from the office that we have just seen depicted?

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue.

4 [Videotape played]

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Just pause there, please.

6 Q. What does that tell you, that sign?

7 A. What it says is "Head of the Legal Administration Affairs." That

8 means that it's the office of that official. At least, it was before the

9 war.

10 Q. What floor is that on?

11 A. That is on the ground floor. When you go to the left down the

12 hallway, first door to the left.

13 Q. You mentioned earlier in your evidence that two women -- you

14 noticed two women kept in custody. This is the occasion when you were

15 made to sweep floors. Where were they kept in custody?

16 A. In that very office.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue.

19 [Videotape played]

20 MR. DI FAZIO:

21 Q. Is this the office that you refer to where the two women were kept

22 in custody?

23 A. Yes, it is. Behind the door where you see the typewriter now,

24 that is where they had their cots.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Just pause there.

1 Q. Who is that depicted in the poster?

2 A. The poster depicts the president of the Serbian Democratic Party

3 during the war, Dr. Radovan Karadzic.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue.

6 [Videotape played]

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Perhaps just stop there.

8 Q. You mentioned a man nicknamed Antesa. To your knowledge, was he

9 ever in that room that we now see depicted?

10 A. This is one of the offices where detainees were held, but from

11 this image, I cannot say exactly, not from this particular frame.

12 Q. Still holding it there, do you know how many people were kept in

13 this room that we can see now? If you don't know how many, even an

14 approximation, please.

15 A. The number varied, so that in the office which is directly across

16 from the prison cells and where Anto Brandic was held, there were about

17 seven to eight persons kept there during one period of time.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue.

20 [Videotape played]

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Just pause there, please.

22 Q. What's that room?

23 A. You can see now that the office that we saw before was the one

24 where Anto Brandic was kept and this is the next one. This is where --

25 this is the service that does registration of motor vehicles. So citizens

1 would come from outside, from off the street, where you see this person

2 outside, and they would get that done.

3 Q. Were people kept in this room? Prisoners, I mean.

4 A. Yes, they were.

5 Q. Again, do you have any idea of what sort of numbers were kept in

6 this room?

7 A. I don't. I don't know that.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue.

10 [Videotape played]

11 MR. DI FAZIO:

12 Q. Do you recognise that room?

13 MR. DI FAZIO: If you could pause there as well, please.

14 A. I recognise it. This is an office that was used by crime

15 technicians before the war. A large number of detainees were kept in this

16 office. While I was in the prison cell, this was the adjoining room.

17 Again, at one point during one period of time, there were about 30 people

18 kept there.

19 Q. Thirty people in that room. About over what period of time were

20 30 people kept in that particular room?

21 A. That may have been July/August 1992. When Ante Savandic [phoen]

22 was killed, that night people were brought out of that room and beaten.

23 JUDGE SINGH: What are the dimensions of this room like?

24 A. Perhaps 5 by 4 or 6 by 5 metres. I think those are probably the

25 measurements. I cannot say exactly.

1 MR. DI FAZIO:

2 Q. Do you have information as to the conditions under which those 30

3 people were kept? For example, bedding, food.

4 A. There were no beds. They were lying on the floor. And at that

5 time, which means late June and July and August, the detainees were

6 receiving one meal a day that was sometime around 1.00 p.m., and the meal

7 consisted of a slice of bread spread with some jam and half a container of

8 tea shared by two detainees.

9 Q. How far away from that room were the two cells in which you and

10 your friends were imprisoned? This is the period of time after you were

11 taken away from garage number 3.

12 A. This office that we saw a moment ago is separated from the prison

13 cells only by a wall.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue with the film.

15 [Videotape played].

16 MR. DI FAZIO:

17 Q. And while the film is running, if you look through those windows,

18 is that a view into the backyard?

19 A. Yes.

20 [Videotape played]

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Just pause there, please. If we could just go back

22 and get that last shot before the break, please. Thank you.

23 Q. Looking down that corridor, were your cells anywhere near that

24 corridor?

25 A. They were in this corridor immediately to the left, as seen from

1 here. To the right is the office that we were referring to a moment ago

2 where this man Brandic was held.

3 Q. So in effect, the cells you were in were across the corridor --

4 the doors to the cells that you were in were across the corridor?

5 A. That is right.

6 Q. And if you -- it's a long corridor. As you look at the scene now,

7 where were the doors to your cells, at the beginning of the shot, at the

8 forefront of the corridor, or right down at the end of the corridor?

9 A. At the forefront. If you look at the crossbar of the bicycle, it

10 would be on the opposite side.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue.

13 [Videotape played]

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Just pause there, please. Perhaps just go back a

15 little bit, please. Thank you.

16 Q. What does that depict?

17 A. This shot depicts the prison cells.

18 Q. Is that the corridor that the camera is in?

19 A. This was probably taken from the door, as you enter that room.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue.

21 [Videotape played]

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Just pause there.

23 Q. Is that the interior of one of the cells?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. There seems to be some sort of makeshift bed. Was that there when

1 you were in the cells?

2 A. Yes. In each of the cells, there is a -- there was a cot that was

3 built there at the time when the whole cell block was built in 1987.

4 Q. Please continue watching, Mr. Lukac, and pay particular attention

5 to what's on the beds. Thank you.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Pause there, please.

9 Q. That's got a foam mattress on it. Did you have a foam mattress?

10 A. This is the cell where I was there, and no, there was no foam

11 mattress. It was just the thing underneath.

12 Q. What was the thing underneath? I can't tell. Is it solid or is

13 it soft? What was it?

14 A. It's a wooden cot, and it has a surface at the top which is not

15 exactly hard.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 A. But of course, it is harder than this foam.

18 Q. Yes, of course. Thank you.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue.

20 [Videotape played]

21 JUDGE SINGH: Sorry, and the dimensions of these two cells, the

22 first one and the second one, are they about the same size? And if so,

23 how large are they?

24 A. They are identical in size. The length is the length of the cot,

25 which probably means 2 -- 2.10 metres, and the width is perhaps 1.5

1 metres.

2 MR. DI FAZIO:

3 Q. You said the length of the court?

4 JUDGE SINGH: Cot.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Cot. I'm sorry. My apologies. I withdraw that.

6 Yes, thank you. Please continue with the film.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MR. DI FAZIO:

9 Q. Do you recognise this office?

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Perhaps pause there.

11 Q. Just to be clear, the camera has now panned in to a second

12 office. It panned in to a first office. Did you recognise that first

13 office?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. What was it?

16 A. These were offices in the -- on the lower floor. It will be to

17 the right when you look from the front of the building. And what we are

18 looking at now is the back office to the left, in that -- on that end of

19 the corridor, and it was used by the deputy commander of the police.

20 Q. Thank you. The office that we -- is now depicted on the screen,

21 were you ever interrogated in there?

22 A. I was interrogated there for the first time, and Mr. Stevan

23 Todorovic was in that office at that time and the other individuals whom I

24 mentioned on the first day. He was at the desk which can be seen here.

25 Q. Was this the first interrogation that you underwent following your

1 arrest?

2 A. Yes, the first interrogation.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Please go ahead. Continue.

5 [Videotape played]

6 MR. DI FAZIO:

7 Q. Can you tell the Court where the camera is now going and what it

8 is now depicting?

9 A. The camera is showing part of the basement of the police station.

10 Q. Were prisoners kept in the basement of the police station?

11 A. For a period of time, yes, they were. And I assume that it was in

12 this section here, past that metal door that we see. In which of these

13 rooms exactly, I don't know.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Could we just fast-forward now to the next scene?

16 And if it could be played.

17 [Videotape played]

18 MR. DI FAZIO:

19 Q. What does that depict?

20 A. These were some of the rooms in the basement of the police

21 station.

22 Q. Before the war, before April 1992, were prisoners kept there? I

23 mean prisoners -- people who were arrested by police in the normal course

24 of their duties.

25 A. Yes. That's where the holding cells were until 1987. And then in

1 1987, new holding cells were built upstairs, where I showed you. And this

2 was done in 1987. I remember this well. From then on until the beginning

3 the war, the basement was not used for holding detainees.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue.

6 [Videotape played]

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Just pause there.

8 Q. Do you recognise that roadway?

9 A. This should be in the village of Gornja Crkvina. This is

10 probably -- actually, no. This is the road from Bosanski Samac, the

11 highway from Bosanski Samac via Doboj to Sarajevo.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Would you please continue.

13 [Videotape played]

14 MR. DI FAZIO: And pause here, please.

15 Q. You've seen a bit more now. Can you tell us first the location of

16 that roadway and the buildings you've just seen.

17 A. The road that can be seen is the highway that I referred to, that

18 is, the Bosanski Samac-Doboj-Sarajevo highway. This is the village of

19 Gornja Crkvina, and the building we see here is the youth centre and other

20 structures that were -- and the building we see to the extreme left, that

21 is where I was held the first three days.

22 Q. You said you were arrested in Crkvina, and your evidence is -- was

23 it somewhere near to this place that's depicted, the point at which you

24 were arrested?

25 A. I was arrested, and I think that if it -- if we roll the tape

1 more, I think we can get to the exact location.

2 Q. Yes.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue.

4 [Videotape played]

5 MR. DI FAZIO:

6 Q. I think it's finished there. If we could just rewind briefly to

7 that last scene and the white buildings depicted in it.

8 You said in evidence that you were kept in a youth centre. I just

9 want to be absolutely clear about that. Where is it shown in this

10 particular shot?

11 A. I said that the rooms in which I was detained the first three days

12 is in the building to the far left. You can see those two windows there.

13 And what you can see in the middle of this picture, this big building,

14 that is the youth centre building in the village of Gornja Crkvina.

15 Behind the main building there is a hall. And as far as I know - and I

16 found this out later, after I was released from camp - Croats from the

17 neighbouring Croatian villages which were occupied after the war were

18 brought there, and they were held in that hall or gym. And after that,

19 they were separated off and taken to other camps in Bosanski Samac or in

20 the village of Zasavica.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, it's slightly after our break time.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: And I've finished with the tape.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. All right. So that's the end with the tape.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: That's the end of tape, the end of the use that I

25 want to make of it.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: So can we take our break and resume the proceedings

2 at 1130 hours.

3 --- Recess taken at 11.05 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecutor, please.

6 MR. DI FAZIO:

7 Q. What was the date on which you were exchanged, Mr. Lukac?

8 A. The 4th of September, 1992.

9 Q. The last few weeks before that exchange took place, were you

10 beaten at all?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And just to be absolutely clear, in the last few weeks before the

13 exchange, you spent your time in the cells in the SUP building?

14 A. Yes.

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 Q. And Franjo Barukcic was still in prison with you?

18 A. Yes. He remained with me, and he was exchanged at the same time

19 as I was, on the 4th of September.

20 Q. When did you first become aware of exchanges taking place, the

21 fact of exchanges, the phenomenon of exchanges?

22 A. When we were taken from Batajnica to Bosanski Samac, Fadil

23 Topcagic, who came to collect us, told us that he had come to take us to

24 be exchanged. However, after our arrival in Samac, after we were locked

25 up in the garages we talked about earlier, no one mentioned an exchange to

1 us anymore. In the following months, we did get some information that

2 some people from the camp were being exchanged, and we ascertained that

3 exchanges did exist [redacted]

4 [redacted].

5 Q. Throughout your evidence, you've described people that you were

6 incarcerated with following your arrest and their ethnic background. I

7 want you to think back now on all of the places that you were imprisoned,

8 right up until your exchange, and tell us -- comment upon another aspect

9 or quality of the prisoners. Were any of them combatants or soldiers, as

10 far as you could tell, people who were imprisoned with you, covering the

11 whole -- from Bosanski Samac to Brcko, to Bijeljina, Batajnica, back in

12 Bosanski Samac.

13 A. I was detained on the 17th of April, 1992. I was arrested at

14 10.30 a.m. and locked up in the village of Gornja Crkvina. Three days

15 later, I was transferred to the TO warehouse in Bosanski Samac. On the

16 26th of April, in the evening hours, I was transferred to the prison of

17 the JNA barracks in Brcko, where I remained until the 2nd of May, 1992.

18 On the 2nd of May, 1992, I was transferred from the JNA prison in the

19 Brcko barracks to the Bijeljina barracks. On the 3rd of May, 1992, I was

20 transferred from Bijeljina to the military prison in Batajnica. On the

21 12th of May, 1992, I was transferred from Batajnica to the military prison

22 in Zemun. On the 15th of May, I was transferred from Zemun back to

23 Batajnica. On the 26th or 27th, I was transferred from Batajnica to

24 Bosanski Samac again. That was when I was taken to that garage. I think

25 it was the 23rd of June that we were transferred to the prison cells in

1 the police station. We remained there until the evening of the 3rd of

2 September. At about 23 hours, we were transferred from there to the gym

3 of the primary school in Bosanski Samac. And on the following morning,

4 the 4th of September, 1992, we were exchanged. Together with me in the

5 cells where I was kept, there was not a single soldier taken prisoner at

6 the front line during the military conflict.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Before you leave this description, which of those

8 places where were you taken to after your arrest were in Serbia, if any?

9 A. I'm sorry, I did not understand your question.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I was asking from the date of your arrest

11 until your release, all these places where you were taken to, was there

12 any place which is actually in Serbia, and which ones are those?

13 A. I understand now. There were two places in Serbia where I was

14 detained, and those are Batajnica and Zemun.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. You obviously became aware of the possibility of exchange and

18 exchange taking place. Did you seek to be exchanged?

19 A. On one occasion when we were in the prison cells in the police

20 station building, we were visited by a delegation - I might call it

21 that - headed by Svetozar Vasovic. He said that he was working in the

22 Serbian Red Cross in Bosanski Samac, and he asked the four of us if we

23 wanted to be exchanged. Of course we said we did.

24 Q. Thank you. Did you ever see the method by which prisoners who

25 were in custody were chosen for exchange? I'm not talking about how the

1 exchange actually worked but how the prisoners might be exchanged.

2 A. I don't know what method was used to select the people who were

3 exchanged, but I do know that these exchanges were used to commit ethnic

4 cleansing of Croats and Bosniaks from that area, because mostly it was

5 civilians from that area who were exchanged. And when I was exchanged, I

6 had an opportunity to convince myself that this was actually the case.

7 Q. I want to turn to the night of the 3rd of September, the night

8 before your exchange. How were you first informed that it was about to

9 take place?

10 A. I can't remember all the details, but I think it was in the early

11 evening that one of the Serbian policemen came into our detention area,

12 and he told me and Mr. Barukcic that an exchange was to be organised the

13 following day and that the two of us were on the list of people to be

14 exchanged.

15 Q. Did you speak to anyone that night in the SUP, apart from Franjo

16 Barukcic, about that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Yes. Please tell us.

19 A. At around before 2000 hours on that evening, the duty officer

20 arrived. He took me out of the cell. He took me upstairs to the police

21 offices that we saw of the crime prevention unit that we saw in the video,

22 and then a number of my colleagues who used to work in the crime

23 prevention unit talked to me. They had worked with me before the war in

24 the crime prevention unit. These were all inspectors of Serbian

25 nationality. Until the outbreak of the war, I had been their chief. In

1 fact, they had summoned me upstairs to say goodbye to me because they knew

2 there was going to be an exchange, and that's why they summoned me.

3 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Milos Savic? Milos Savic. I

4 apologise for the pronunciation.

5 A. I do. Milos Savic is an inspector, or he was an inspector of the

6 crime prevention unit before the war. He worked with me. I was his

7 chief. And during the war, he was an inspector in the crime prevention

8 police unit in that Serbian police.

9 Q. Was he anywhere on this occasion when the inspectors said goodbye

10 to you?

11 A. You mean that conversation that evening?

12 Q. Yes. Sorry.

13 A. Yes. He was one of the people in that office.

14 Q. Did he say anything to you?

15 A. He told me that he was sorry about everything that had happened to

16 me and that -- because he knew everything that had been done to me, to me

17 and to other people, that he was ashamed to be a Serb.

18 Q. Did you remain in the -- remain in the cell, prison cells, in the

19 SUP that night?

20 A. We remained in the cell until about 23 hours, as far as I can

21 recall, and then we were taken out, Mr. Barukcic and I, and we were taken

22 by truck to the gym of the primary school in Bosanski Samac.

23 Q. What was -- what did you observe at the gym?

24 A. When we were brought into the gym, it was completely dark inside

25 because there was no electricity at the time. The gym was full of

1 people. There were women and men. There was a large number of people

2 inside. I think that they had been brought in that night from different

3 locations, and they were Croats and Bosniaks to be exchanged on the

4 following day.

5 Q. Elderly people?

6 A. Most of them were elderly people, although there were also others.

7 Q. Was there anything about their condition, their physical

8 condition, their clothes, things they had with them, that indicated to you

9 whether or not these people had been prisoners?

10 A. I was able to observe this only on the following morning when dawn

11 broke, when we were being taken for exchange in the bus. Then I noticed

12 that among all those people who were on the bus - and I think there were

13 about 70 or 80 people there because the bus was full - there were seven or

14 eight prisoners whom I knew had been in camp, because a number of them I

15 could recognise. I knew them because they had been with me from the

16 beginning in imprisonment. And the other reason I recognised them was

17 that their heads were shaved, completely shaved, but not all of them.

18 Q. Now, you've just described coming into contact with an extra 70 or

19 80 people. Was there anything about them that allows you to comment on

20 whether or not they were combatants, soldiers, military types?

21 A. As far as I know, in that bus, the people who were exchanged on

22 that occasion, none of them was a combatant.

23 Q. You -- I want to turn now to the trip to the exchange point.

24 You've mentioned buses. Did you go -- were the people who were to be

25 exchanged placed on the buses and transported on the buses?

1 A. We were all put into that bus in front of the building, the

2 primary school in Bosanski Samac.

3 Q. How many buses?

4 A. As far as I can recall, there was only one bus, and it was full.

5 Q. Was there any escort to this bus?

6 A. There was a police escort. There was a police vehicle in front

7 with uniformed policemen inside. Behind them, there was a civilian

8 vehicle in which Mr. Miro Tadic sat, Svetozar Vasovic, and Veljo Maslic

9 also. Behind that vehicle was the bus, and behind the bus there was

10 another police vehicle.

11 Q. To be absolutely clear, the gentleman you referred to as Mr. Miro

12 Tadic, is that one of the defendants in this case, Miroslav Tadic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How long did the trip take to the final exchange point?

15 A. The trip lasted for quite a long time, because before the

16 exchange, we had been taken to a town called Bosanska Gradiska, which is

17 quite far from Bosanski Samac. How long it took exactly, I couldn't say,

18 but it was several hours.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown the Times map, please.

20 Can it be placed on the easel. I'm not quite sure of the exhibit number.

21 I'll be able to provide it to the Chamber in a moment.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: What was the number? Okay. I understand it is P15.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm grateful to the Chamber. Thank you.

24 If it could be placed on the easel. And it's just behind me over

25 here, against the wall. We might be able to see it on the ELMO if the

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1 witness -- if it could be placed on the actual easel itself. It's behind

2 the usher where it will not fall down.

3 May I just approach the map briefly?

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, yes.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

6 Q. Mr. Lukac, can you just go to the map --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

8 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, I would be very grateful if our

9 learned colleague will just explain us what he pointed out just now with

10 his right finger.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: I can inform the Chamber that I pointed to a town

12 in -- I wasn't conscious of actually pointing. I can only recall looking

13 at a town. But if I did point - of course I trust Mr. Pantelic's

14 observations completely - I pointed to the town of Bosanska Gradiska.

15 MR. PANTELIC: In front of a witness.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: The point is that the town of Bosanska Gradiska is

17 as it appears on the map.

18 MR. PANTELIC: That is correct, Madam President.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

20 MR. PANTELIC: But the proper way as I see this procedure is if I

21 would be my learned colleague Mr. Gramsci di Fazio, I would go to the map,

22 without pointing anything, check where is the town, and then I go back.

23 So that would be the proper way.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

25 MR. PANTELIC: I'm absolutely sure that Mr. Lukac is perfectly

1 aware where is Bosanska Gradiska, but it's rather a matter of principle of

2 the behaviour of our learned colleagues. Thank you very much.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think it was an oversight. I don't think we

4 need to do it. If we can proceed on other matters.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, if Your Honours please.

6 Q. Just point out firstly, Mr. Lukac, if you can, firstly the town of

7 Bosanski Samac on the map. It's a long distance between the easel and the

8 bench. And then if you can, if you can locate it, with or without

9 prompting, the town of Bosanska Gradiska.

10 A. That is Bosanski Samac.

11 Q. Thank you. Can you indicate Bosanska Gradiska?

12 A. Bosanska Gradiska is here.

13 Q. So it's to the west, along the northern border of Bosnia and

14 Croatia.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. You can sit down now.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the map be left there just in the meantime.

18 Q. Now, you told us you stopped in Bosanska Gradiska. What did you

19 do there?

20 A. Would you repeat your question, please?

21 Q. I'm sorry. You told us that you stopped in Bosanska Gradiska.

22 What did you do there?

23 A. The bus on which we were came to a stop somewhere. I had never

24 before been in Bosanska Gradiska, but I think that it was in the centre of

25 town. For a long period of time, I think three, four, or five hours, we

1 sat there waiting. I think that they were probably discussing the

2 procedure of the exchange itself.

3 Q. Did you see Mr. Miroslav Tadic?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Eventually did the convoy continue?

6 A. While we were waiting there, I know that another four buses loaded

7 with people to be exchanged arrived, and later I learned that these were

8 people from the territory of Doboj municipality. And if I can recall,

9 about 1730 hours, they crossed the river -- the bridge on the River Sava

10 at Bosanska Gradiska over to the Republic of Croatia.

11 Q. Where were you exchanged?

12 A. The exchange took place at the gas station which was damaged, I

13 assume, by fighting, and this was the village of Dragalic, which is by the

14 Slavonski Brod-Zagreb highway.

15 Q. About how far from Bosanska Gradiska would this village be?

16 A. I don't know exactly how far it was, but I would say some 10 to 15

17 kilometres.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: So does that mean you were actually taken into

20 Croatia, or was this still B and H?

21 A. We were taken to Croatia. But the area across from River Sava,

22 across from Bosanska Gradiska, was under the control of Serbian rebels in

23 Croatia.

24 MR. DI FAZIO:

25 Q. Pre-April 1992 was it Croatia territory?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is it now part of Croatian territory?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I want to play a portion of

5 a videotape that I have referred to.

6 A. Excuse me. Just one correction. You asked whether that territory

7 was in the Republic of Croatia prior to April 1992. The territory, as I

8 said, was controlled by the Serbian rebels in the Republic of Croatia

9 since 1991, since the outbreak of hostilities there, and that part of --

10 that region is called Western Slavonia.

11 Q. Prior to the outbreak of hostilities in general in the former

12 Yugoslavia, was it part of Croatia?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me while I gather

15 now the transcripts of the video.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

17 [Prosecution counsel confer]

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I have copies of the transcript

19 available with the case manager here. The video itself is also with

20 the -- in the technical room, and it's ready to go.

21 Before I play it though --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: How long is it?

23 MR. DI FAZIO: The video itself is quite long. It's over an

24 hour. I only want to refer to certain portions of the video.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. So just certain portions.

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Certain portions of it. It can be played again at

2 a later stage. And with this witness, I only need to play certain

3 portions of it, and I just want to draw your attention to certain parts of

4 the transcript so that it will make it easier for the Chamber and for

5 Defence counsel to follow the brief parts that I want to draw the Court's

6 attention to.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number for the video footage and the

8 transcript, please.

9 THE REGISTRAR: This video shall be marked for the record as

10 Prosecutor's Exhibit P27, and the transcript shall be marked for the

11 record as Prosecutor's Exhibit P27A, and the B/C/S version shall be marked

12 for the record as Prosecutor's Exhibit P27A ter.

13 JUDGE SINGH: Is this -- Mr. di Fazio, is this a video on the

14 exchange of prisoners?

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

16 JUDGE SINGH: Perhaps, then, the exhibit could be marked

17 accordingly "Exchange of Prisoners."

18 MR. DI FAZIO: I would be grateful if that could be done.

19 There are just some matters that I want to draw the Chamber's

20 attention to in relation to the translation.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can go ahead.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: You see at the top of the page, there are numbers.

23 You should have two documents. Firstly, there is a larger document

24 beginning with the number 00696074. Do Your Honours have that? Yes.

25 That is part of the translation that the videotape will refer to.

1 In addition, you should have a further document with the number

2 headed -- ending 5037, indicating text in German.

3 Do you have that? If I can ask you to go the first document

4 beginning -- ending 074, the main translation, I'll refer to it. And if

5 you go to page -- it's page 13 of the translation. And at the top, the

6 number ends 086, there is an excerpt, a third of the way down, beginning

7 02908. Do you see that? That's the portion of the videotape at which --

8 that's the beginning of the part of the videotape that I'll be showing.

9 I'll be showing that, so it will show the man in the blue T-shirt.

10 At the bottom of the page, you'll see, "Text in German." If you

11 turn to the additional translation that I've provided, at the very top of

12 that page is the numbers 02908. Obviously they refer to something on the

13 videotape. And it says underneath that, "First text in German." And the

14 first paragraph on that page, about halfway down, that is the text in

15 German that's referred to in the main translation.

16 If you turn now back to the main translation, you will see that it

17 continues over the next page. That will also be shown. It refers to a

18 young man in a multi-coloured shirt. That will also be shown. It then

19 continues showing someone whose name is D. Delic. That will also be

20 shown. It continues at 3332 with a reporter and a parish priest. That

21 will also be shown.

22 If you turn over, that's from page 14 on to page 15, it continues

23 down to a point just before 3746. And just above that, it refers to "Text

24 in German."

25 If you now turn to the additional translation, you will see that

1 that text continues on from 3332, and you can see that on the second page.

2 So that's it. It's continuous viewing. All you have to recall is

3 that where -- is that it will show two pieces of -- two portions of the

4 same gentleman speaking in German. And if you want to follow what it

5 says, you will have to go to the separate document. And it's as simple as

6 that.

7 The technical people should have the tape ready to run, and I

8 would ask now that they take the tape to that portion that I have already

9 indicated with the technical people, and that should begin on page 086 of

10 the translation at 2903. Thank you. I'll ask from time to time that the

11 tape stop.

12 Can we please now play it with audio component.

13 [Videotape played]

14 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] [As interpreted]

15 Q. Can you tell us briefly in which camp you were and

16 what you have been through ... We've just heard that you lost about 40

17 kilograms.

18 A. I was in several camps. I don't know exactly which

19 ones. Three, in Samac, in Bijeljina, in Brcko. What else?

20 Q. Tell us?

21 A. I'm happy to be alive.

22 Q. How were you treated in the camps?

23 A. Not well. Beatings every day. They broke our

24 bones. We were -- I don't know why. I'm grateful to be here. That's

25 all.

1 Q. How many kilograms did you lose?

2 A. About 30.

3 Q. And what did you given to eat or what did you not

4 given to eat?

5 A. A piece of bread with a thin layer of marmalade and a

6 cup of tea for the whole day. And this bread was about two centimetres

7 thick, two and a half.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Pause there, please.

9 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] [As interpreted] He was in camp. He

10 was German.

11 Q. You're German, right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you tell me how was it in this Serbian camp?

14 A. First I was beaten a lot. I was hit 11, 12 times. I

15 had a black eye, and my ribs were bruised. It was very bad at first.

16 During the last six weeks, they left me in peace. I was only beaten by

17 the special police. They were people from Belgrade. The police did

18 nothing to me personally. On the contrary, they tried to help me, in a

19 way, because I was left to my own devices there.

20 Q. What is your name?

21 A. Jurgen Janke.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Stop there, please. Thank you.

23 Q. Firstly, the first scene, the gentleman in the blue shirt, do you

24 know who that was?

25 A. Yes. That was Mr. Muhamed Bicic, from Bosanski Samac.

1 Q. You referred to -- earlier in your evidence to prisoners having

2 their heads shaved. He appeared to have his head shaved. Is that the

3 sort of shaved head that you were referring to?

4 A. Yes. And I think sometime in July, we had lice suddenly appearing

5 among the people who were detained in the TO storage room, and then all

6 these people who were detained there were -- had their heads shaved, and

7 he was one of them. People did not have any baths throughout this

8 period. I, for instance, did not take a bath for four months. So it was

9 a great filth.

10 Q. Thank you. The man in the -- Mr. Bicic, whom you've identified as

11 Mr. Bicic, says he was kept in camps in Samac and Bijeljina and Brcko.

12 Did he accompany you in those camps?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was he exchanged on the same day as you?

15 A. Yes, he was.

16 Q. Thank you. The next scene that was depicted in the video was a

17 German. Do you know anything about him?

18 A. He was not with me where I was detained. But based on information

19 I received later, this was a German citizen who was a truck driver and was

20 on his way to Gradacac, which was a neighbouring municipality, to deliver

21 some goods and was stopped, probably by the Serbian police, and was

22 detained in Bosanski Samac.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: I'd like to continue with the tape. Perhaps in the

25 technical room, they could wind it back very slightly and get it back to

1 the end of the appearance of the German, before the -- the German

2 gentleman, before proceeding on to the next scene. But I'd like to see

3 this scene in its entirety, from the point at which the man in the

4 blue-coloured shirt appears. So if it could just be rewound slightly.

5 [Videotape played]

6 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] [As interpreted]

7 Q. You are German, right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you tell us what was it like to be in a Serbian

10 camp?

11 A. At first, I was beaten a lot. 11 or 12 times I was

12 hit, and I had a black eye, and my ribs were bruised. It was a very bad

13 at the beginning. During the last six weeks, they left me in peace. I

14 have to say that I was only beaten by the special police. They were

15 people from Belgrade. The police did nothing to me personally. On the

16 contrary, they tried to help me, in a way, because I was left to my own

17 devices there.

18 Q. And what is your name?

19 A. Jurgen Janke.

20 Q. This is Croatia, are you aware of that? What is it

21 like in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22 A. You mean what the situation is now?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. Well, there is still shooting; too much. There is

25 still a lot of shooting going on. And the people, because there are still

1 a number of people there, they are hoping to get out every day because

2 life is unbearable. You get a slice of bread, this small, a day, and you

3 have to make do with it. People sleep on wooden beds. Three share a

4 blanket. And now it's slowly getting cold, so people get sick. As I

5 said, it's not good. I have waited three and a half months to get out.

6 Others have been waiting just as long. They all want to go home to

7 Croatia.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Pause there, please.

10 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] [As interpreted]

11 A. What shall I say? Horrible.

12 MR. DI FAZIO:

13 Q. Who is the man -- do you recognise this man depicted now?

14 A. I do. He's also one of the detainees of -- from the camp. His

15 name -- last name was Stjepanovic, and his brother was there with him.

16 There are two out of four who were arrested in Brcko. I mentioned them

17 when I arrived in Brcko. They were there. They were brought there.

18 Q. Was he exchanged on the same day as you?

19 A. Yes, both he and his brother.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Can we now proceed to show the scene in full?

22 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] [As interpreted]

23 A. What can I say? Horrible. It was not nice at all.

24 It was horrible but --

25 Q. Where were you?

1 A. I was in Bosanski Samac. We were in Brcko, then in

2 Bijeljina, then in Ugljevik, then again in Bosanski Samac. We suffered

3 most in Bosanski Samac.

4 Q. What were you beaten with?

5 A. I can't tell you anything else.

6 Q. Just a brief statement for the HTV, please, Zagreb

7 television.

8 A. Not me, I don't want to talk now.

9 Q. Can you just tell us briefly what you went through?

10 A. A lot.

11 Q. Where were you?

12 A. In Bosanski Samac.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Just pause there, please.

14 Q. Do you recognise the man who just spoke?

15 A. I recognise him. He was also in the camp. And for a while, he

16 was with me. His name is Dragan Delic, and he's from Bosanski Samac.

17 Q. Was he exchanged on the same day as you?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Can we continue with the next scene, please?

20 [Videotape played]

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Can we just pause there?

22 Q. Look at the buses. Can you tell us anything about the buses? For

23 instance, are they of the type or are they the buses in which you were

24 exchanged?

25 A. I said that while we were waiting in Bosanska Gradiska to be

1 exchanged, that another four buses arrived from Doboj which also brought

2 people to be exchanged. So in total, there should have been five buses.

3 And the people you see here are the people from those buses.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue.

6 [Videotape played]

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Just stop there, please. Could we just rewind it

8 briefly. Just rewind it briefly, very briefly. Just continue very

9 briefly. Stop there.

10 Q. Now, you see a little man with a coat draped over his shoulders

11 and wearing a hat. Do you see that man?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Opposite him is a gentleman who appears to have his hand up to his

14 forehead or his spectacles and appears to be bearded, wearing a colourful

15 shirt. Who is that?

16 A. Mr. Miroslav Tadic.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue briefly.

19 [Videotape played]

20 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] [As interpreted]

21 Q. Tell us, you've just come from the camp. How was

22 it?

23 A. How can it be in the camp? No words can impress what

24 I have been through. I would not like to talk about it. I don't want to

25 make any statements. I can only say that I was taken from the Hrvatska

1 Tisina parish where I was a priest for over half a year. I was taken away

2 on 15 January. And today, thank God, after many attempts, we have finally

3 been successfully exchanged. I know that I was supposed to be exchanged a

4 long time ago, during the first exchange; however, I was told that their

5 Crisis Staff had decided I could not go until an all-for-all exchange

6 takes place. Today I managed to come out after everything that has

7 happened, and I think I can say that I can only thank God for managing to

8 come out alive. There's nothing else I can tell you.

9 Q. You have obviously lost a lot of weight. Can you

10 tell us how you were treated in the Serbian camp as a priest.

11 A. I can't say anything about that right now at the

12 moment. You can see what I look like. I think that's enough. No words

13 are necessary. I think that that would be superfluous. Thank you.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Just pause there, please.

15 Q. Who is that man, the man with the moustache who was talking?

16 A. You mean before this?

17 Q. Yes. We can see the German here, but who was the man who was

18 speaking before, the man with the moustache?

19 A. This was Mr. Jozo Puskaric, Catholic parish priest from Hrvatska

20 Tisina, who was also detained in the camp.

21 Q. Was he ever detained with you, along with you?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Was he exchanged on the same day as you?

24 A. Yes, he was.

25 Q. Thank you.

1 MR. DI FAZIO: And if we could just proceed into the next scene.

2 [Videotape played]

3 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] [As interpreted]

4 Q. You should ask him as a German how he found himself

5 in the camp.

6 Q. How did you as a German end up in Bosanski Samac, in

7 the camp? Were you there on business or what?

8 A. The company had sent me to Gradacac with a truck to

9 collect some textile goods. In Brcko, I received a paper from the -- from

10 a major which allowed me to proceed unhindered to Gradacac. I had made

11 contact with the company. And just before Gradacac, there was a roadblock

12 and special police. They first beat me inside the vehicle, took away

13 4.000 German marks, an earring and gold chain, and then took me to Samac.

14 In Samac, there was a commander who didn't want anything to do with

15 Germans officially. I was told that I was to remain there under arrest.

16 As I said, I was beaten a number of times. I was not only beaten, but

17 also they -- they played some kind of a game with me. I had to slap

18 Croats, and if I did not do it right, I would be slapped myself. On

19 Sundays mostly, Sunday nights, visitors would come from outside the

20 prison, from the villages, policemen and soldiers, and that was always the

21 worst. Sometimes we had to sing these Chetnik songs for up to 20 hours,

22 until people collapsed. As I said, for me this was -- I thought that it

23 was the end.

24 Q. What was the words, the singing or something else?

25 A. No. Also beatings and keeping quiet all the time.

1 It was a huge space. When we heard someone coming, you could hear a pin

2 drop. Nobody moved, everybody was frightened and hid quickly, pulling on

3 pullovers so that it would not hurt so much when they beat us. As I said,

4 they played these games with us.

5 Q. And who was detained there? Who belonged to the

6 regular

7 police? Soldiers, or who was beating you?

8 A. I didn't see a single soldier or policeman detained

9 there. They were all civilians

10 Q. Only civilians?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And who was forced you to do all this to?

13 A. Who was forcing us? It was the special police

14 force.

15 Q. The special force?

16 A. Yes. All people from Belgrade. And I have spoken

17 to many people in the last four or five weeks when nobody was allowed to

18 beat us anymore and the commander stopped it because there were situations

19 in which people were unable to walk and many were half dead. First, we

20 had nothing to eat, and then ...

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. And the tape can be stopped there.

22 I've finished, for my purposes, with the tape. Has it been given an

23 exhibit number?

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It was P27.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

1 Q. On the night of the 17th of April, 1992, when you went home to

2 bed, did you have any plans to leave your life in Bosanska Samac?

3 A. For me to leave?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. No. No.

6 Q. You've told us that you wanted to be exchanged. You've told the

7 Court that you wanted to be exchanged. Can you tell the Court, explain

8 why and how it came about that you wanted to be exchanged?

9 A. Well, I think it's a normal human need. After everything I had

10 been through, after everything that had happened to me, I think that

11 anyone under those circumstances would be happy to get away from it all

12 and to go somewhere where he'll be free.

13 Q. If all of this hadn't happened, all of the events from April 17

14 onwards, where would you be living now?

15 A. In Bosanski Samac.

16 Q. You were exchanged and taken into Croatia. How long did you stay

17 in Croatia?

18 A. I stayed in Croatia about 20 or 25 days, until I was issued with

19 documents. After that, I went for medical treatment in Austria, where my

20 family was.

21 Q. What sort of injuries -- at the end of the day, after your

22 exchange, what sort of injuries had you been left with?

23 A. I had a lot of injuries. My ribs were broken. I have already

24 said that. My right kidney was damaged. My teeth were broken. But the

25 greatest damage that was done to me was that my sense of balance was

1 disrupted because of the blows to my head.

2 Q. Did you eventually make your way back to Bosnia?

3 A. Yes. I returned on the 1st of April, 1993, and started working in

4 the police in Orasje.

5 Q. Have you ever been back to Bosanski Samac?

6 A. I never went back to Bosanski Samac except at my request after the

7 war. I was taken by members of SFOR simply to see the town.

8 Q. Was that under guard?

9 A. Yes. I was taken by members of SFOR. Those are international

10 military forces in Bosnia and Herzegovina. And I asked them if I could go

11 with them, and they helped me. So I got into their vehicle and drove

12 through the town. And that was the only occasion after 1992 that I

13 entered Bosanski Samac.

14 Q. Have you ever been back to your home?

15 A. No. I had a flat in Bosanski Samac. I never went back, nor do I

16 intend to. In the meantime, I exchanged that flat for a flat in Orasje,

17 so that as long as this situation prevails and as long as the authorities

18 in Bosanski Samac are what they are, I will not go back.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: I have no further questions.

21 Questioned by the Court:

22 JUDGE MUMBA: I have a few questions for the witness. During your

23 evidence, you did discuss -- you did say that your vehicle, it was shown

24 in the photograph in the police station. Did you recover your vehicle?

25 A. No.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Generally, before the war, what was considered to be

2 the military age for men? Between -- from what age to what age?

3 A. Under the legislation in force at the time, it was men from 18 to

4 60 years of age.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: A man of, let's say, 57, 58 could go on the front

6 line during that time, could be involved in combat action?

7 A. It doesn't mean necessarily that a man of that age would be sent

8 to the front line, but he could be made to work for the army in logistics,

9 for example.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: I would like to find out from the Defence counsel

11 how many counsel would like to cross-examine this witness. Is it all

12 four? I take it, then, that it's all four. Who will begin?

13 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I represent

14 Mr. Zaric, and I will begin the cross-examination of Mr. Lukac.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic.

16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, Your Honour. Thank you

17 very much.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Pisarevic:

19 Q. Mr. Lukac, before I begin this cross-examination, I wish to tell

20 you that I and my client, Simo Zaric, sincerely sympathise with the

21 suffering you have been through and that was inflicted on all victims,

22 regardless of their ethnic affiliation, in the course of this war and that

23 we do understand your bitterness which you expressed in the course of your

24 testimony.

25 Before I put any questions to you, and bearing in mind the fact

1 that in the course of your testimony, countless times you presented your

2 opinions about certain events, your conclusions at which you arrived on

3 the basis of some information, I wish to ask you to answer my questions

4 briefly with yes or no so that we can shorten this cross-examination.

5 I am also thinking of the fact that you have been here for five

6 days now, that you are probably tired, as well as the fact that the Trial

7 Chamber, I'm sure, wishes to expedite the proceedings.

8 Mr. Lukac, you will agree with me you grew up in the village of

9 Bazik, where you lived until you were 18?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You agree with me that you graduated from high school in Orasje?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Your village, Bazik, is between the villages of Grebnice and

14 Domagevac in the municipality of Bosanski Samac?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can we agree and say that the villages of Grebnice, Bazik, and

17 Domagevac are populated mainly by Croats?

18 A. I can partly agree. Domagevac and Bazik are populated entirely by

19 Croats, and the third village has a Croatian majority but Serbs also lived

20 there.

21 Q. Yes. I agree. I know that fact. That is why I asked you whether

22 you agreed, to see if you would agree in part.

23 In your statement, you said that you graduated from university and

24 that your subjects were philosophy and sociology?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Does that mean that you did not go to a police school or a police

2 academy?

3 A. No.

4 Q. I beg your pardon?

5 A. Yes, exactly. I did not go to a police academy.

6 Q. Can we agree that your education is not that of a policeman?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You will agree with me that in the former Yugoslavia, the chief of

9 a public security station was mostly a political job, not a professional

10 one?

11 A. Yes, I agree.

12 Q. Thank you. Can we agree that the condition for someone to perform

13 that job was moral and political acceptability or, rather, belonging to

14 the Communist Party?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you also have to comply with that obligation and be a member

17 of the Communist Party in order to get a job in the police?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Bearing in mind that you said that you had not sincerely been a

20 member of the Communist Party, can we say that you were insincere only in

21 order to achieve your purpose of becoming a policeman?

22 A. No.

23 Q. For how many years were you a policeman?

24 A. I don't know what period of time you are referring to.

25 Q. Before 1992.

1 A. I started my work in the police on the 16th of February, 1982.

2 Q. Can we agree that you were a policeman for 12 years?

3 A. Not 12. A little less than ten.

4 Q. Bearing in mind that membership in the Communist Party, which was

5 then in power because there was a one-party system, was the basic

6 prerequisite for becoming a policeman, do you consider that you were

7 sincere throughout those ten years while you were doing that job?

8 A. How do you mean sincere? Toward whom?

9 Q. Well, sincere toward the party, the government.

10 A. That's a relative matter.

11 Q. Thank you. Does this mean, then, that you acted contrary to your

12 beliefs in order to achieve your -- or fulfil your need to be a policeman?

13 A. Within my police job, I acted in accordance with the law and

14 professionally. Ideological affiliation was completely irrelevant in that

15 context. You know very well how I performed that job because you were a

16 lawyer at the time then.

17 Q. Oh, I did not say that you were a bad policeman. I congratulate

18 you on how you performed your job. However, you will agree with me that

19 in that system, when looking for a job in the police, you and everybody

20 else who had the same intention were obliged to write a detailed

21 curriculum vitae about yourselves, your families. Is that correct?

22 A. No. I never wrote a CV when I got my job in the police.

23 Q. But others did?

24 A. I don't know. It's possible. Maybe those who went to the police

25 school.

1 Q. Thank you. However, in your statement, you still say that the

2 reason why you were not appointed chief was that the Public Security

3 Service got hold of the information that two of your uncles had been

4 members of the Ustasha forces. Is that correct?

5 A. It's correct I said that.

6 Q. Were they?

7 A. I don't know that, but the state security service determined that

8 they were.

9 Q. I'm asking you. Let me remind you that you have to answer

10 questions and that you are under oath.

11 A. I know that very well. But I was born in 1956, and World War II

12 ended in 1945, so I was born ten years after the end of World War II.

13 Q. Mr. Lukac, I know all this, but I'm asking you this because this

14 is what you said.

15 A. I said that the state security service established that, which is

16 correct. So is what they determined correct? I said it's correct that

17 this is what they said they had determined. But whether it's correct or

18 not, I don't know.

19 Q. Very well. Thank you.

20 You accused Mr. Simo Zaric of this?

21 A. That is not correct. I said that at the head of the service that

22 did this check was Mr. Simo Zaric at that time.

23 Q. But in your statement of the 11th of April -- you made it from the

24 11th to the 14th of October, 1994. You stated that you held Simo Zaric

25 responsible in a way for the fact that you were not appointed chief of the

1 public security station.

2 A. I did not say this, and this cannot be in the statement. I said

3 that the check was made by the state security service and Simo Zaric was

4 at the head of that service for Modrica.

5 Q. Are you sure that it was this section that was in charge of

6 establishing these facts and that he was in charge of this?

7 A. I'm completely sure of this. I'm sure that this service did

8 conduct a check, because Mr. Zaric told me this personally because I

9 discussed it with him.

10 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Pisarevic, if I may just pause there for a

11 second. You referred to a statement. Are you referring to his evidence

12 in Court, or are you referring to some other statement? If so, please

13 identify the statement you've earlier referred to and also in your

14 subsequent questions.

15 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I will try. Thank you for drawing

16 my attention to it. I only wish to say that I did say that this was a

17 statement made by Mr. Lukac to the investigators of The Hague Tribunal in

18 the period from the 11th to the 14th of October, 1994.

19 JUDGE SINGH: Thank you.

20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] My colleagues have just helped me

21 by handing me the statement.

22 Q. Yes. This is the statement where you say the following: "The SDB

23 intervened and Simo Zaric came with the information that two of my uncles

24 had worked in the intelligence service of the Ustasha regime, and for this

25 reason, I was considered undesirable." This may not be the best

1 translation, but that's what it says here. Is this correct?

2 A. Yes, it's correct.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'm not objecting to the

5 question, but I'm not clear and I think counsel should proceed to clarify

6 that. What's correct? What was said in the statement was correct or the

7 fact of it is correct?

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think the --

9 MR. DI FAZIO: I just want to be clear. And this problem is the

10 sort of problem that will arise continuously when people refer to

11 statements. I have no problem with that, but I think we should make it

12 always clear that counsel is, firstly, establishing that the witness says

13 something in the statement, and then asks him, "Is that assertion in your

14 statement in fact correct?" And I would suggest that that will stop me

15 getting to my feet and we can proceed more smoothly.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I'm sure counsel has understood what the

17 Prosecutor is saying and will clarify that.

18 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand. I will try now

19 to put the following question to Mr. Lukac.

20 Q. Is it correct that you said in your statement, which you gave to

21 the investigators of the Hague Tribunal from the 11th to the 14th of

22 October, 1994, that "the SDB got involved and Simo Zaric came up with

23 information that two of my uncles worked in the information section in the

24 Ustasha regime and considered me unfit," so as unfit you were not

25 appointed head or, rather, chief of the public security station?

1 A. It's correct that I made that statement.

2 Q. Is it correct that the SDB came up with this information?

3 A. It's correct that the SDB did the check, and Mr. Simo Zaric was at

4 the head of that service.

5 Q. Wait a minute. I'll ask you about Simo Zaric later. I'm asking

6 you now whether it was the SDB that got this information.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. Was it Simo Zaric who gave you this information?

9 A. This information arrived from the service headed by Mr. Simo

10 Zaric, and he knew about this information.

11 Q. You will agree with me that being at the head of a service and

12 providing some information is not the same thing.

13 A. I repeat that the information came from the service of which he

14 was the head, and he was aware of this information because he told me

15 about it.

16 Q. Mr. Lukac, I do not challenge the fact that Simo Zaric was at the

17 head of the Modrica section of the SDB. But my question is very precise,

18 in order to clarify some matters: Do you say that it was Simo Zaric who

19 provided this information?

20 A. I say that this information was provided by a service headed by

21 Mr. Simo Zaric and that he was aware of it.

22 Q. Very well. Since we cannot clarify this, I shall proceed to

23 another issue.

24 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Pisarevic?

25 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes?

1 JUDGE SINGH: Are you saying that the information was conveyed by

2 your client to him after having obtained it? If that is so, then put the

3 question in that context.

4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Evidently, Your Honour -- I

5 appreciate that you are following these proceedings very carefully and

6 wish to have matters clarified. I assure you that this is my goal also.

7 I asked the witness, because he said that Simo Zaric came up with

8 information. I am asking him whether Simo Zaric found this information or

9 conveyed it. The information was unearthed by the SDB, which was an

10 institution with a hierarchy. Mr. Zaric did not tell Mr. Dragan this,

11 that -- but Mr. Lukac said that it was Mr. Zaric who unearthed this

12 information and that this information was the cause of his being unfit to

13 be appointed to a post.

14 I hope this has been of some assistance to you, because I don't

15 know how else to put this question to Mr. Lukac, when he keeps repeating

16 the same response to this question.

17 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pisarevic. On the same note, just

18 looking at the transcript of what has just transpired, you mention just

19 now in the English translation that Mr. Zaric is said by Mr. Lukac to have

20 unearthed the information, but it's my understanding from his responses to

21 your earlier questions that, in fact, he was saying that the information

22 concerning his uncles was provided by the SDB service which was headed by

23 Mr. Zaric, and Mr. Zaric was aware of it and spoke with him about it.

24 That seems to me different from saying that Mr. Zaric personally unearthed

25 that information. So I'd like to get that issue clarified, please.

1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is exactly what

2 I wish to do. I did not say that Mr. Zaric discovered this information,

3 but the witness said that Mr. Zaric did this, because he keeps linking

4 this service with a man who was at its head.

5 It's true that Simo Zaric was at its head, but it was not he who

6 came by this information. It was found by methods used by this service.

7 But Mr. Lukac is convinced that Mr. Simo Zaric is the one who got this

8 information, and through the SDB, he forwarded it on to the highest

9 institutions in the SDB, which then said he was unfit to be the chief of

10 the public security station.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't think that is correct. I think you should

12 let the witness inform the Trial Chamber what his explanation is about

13 this issue.

14 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I agree.

15 A. Mr. -- or, rather, the counsel is talking about the period in

16 early 1987. This was five years before the outbreak of the war. At that

17 time, I was nominated to be the secretary of the Secretariat of Internal

18 Affairs for the Bosanski Samac municipality.

19 In the procedure of appointment to that post, the SDB,

20 specifically the section that was located in the field office in Modrica,

21 which was then headed by Mr. Simo Zaric, in accordance with the usual

22 procedure which was applied at that time, carried out certain checks about

23 me and about my immediate family and my extended family. And in the

24 course of these background checks, this service - and when I refer to this

25 service we have to know, and counsel knows this very well, that there were

1 five or six people employed in that field office and Mr. Simo Zaric was at

2 its head, it was not a service employing a thousand or thousands of

3 employees - they carried out the checks and arrived at certain information

4 that in World War II, in the Ustasha formations -- and that was the

5 regular army of the Independent State of Croatia that existed in that area

6 in World War II, that two of my uncles, my mother's brothers had

7 participated in those formations.

8 This information and this check was forwarded by the field office

9 headed by Mr. Zaric to the Republican Minister of Internal Affairs, whose

10 name was Dusko Zgonjanin at the time. And for this reason, because --

11 because of this check, I was considered unfit, unacceptable, only because

12 my two uncles had been in the Ustasha formations during World War II.

13 That was the only reason I was not appointed to this post, the top post in

14 the police of Bosanski Samac at the time.

15 And it's correct that this field office of the SDB, headed by

16 Mr. Simo Zaric, carried out these checks and sent this information on to

17 the then Republican Secretary, and that this was so was confirmed to me

18 personally by Mr. Simo Zaric, because when I found out about this fact, I

19 invited him to my office because I was then acting chief of police, and in

20 our conversation, he confirmed this to me.

21 So I don't see what is unclear in all this.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Witness. We have reached our time for

23 lunch break. But before we rise, I would like to answer the question --

24 the request raised by Mr. Pantelic about videotapes and other materials to

25 be provided to the Defence counsel.

1 The Trial Chamber's response is that only audiotapes will be made

2 available to the Defence counsel of these proceedings. The videotapes are

3 never made to Defence counsel except in exceptional circumstances, in

4 which case special arrangements are made for them to watch but they are

5 not released to them.

6 The question of watching the witnesses for purposes of credit,

7 that should be done in court during the proceedings. So only audiotapes

8 will be made available.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you for your answer, Madam President, but I

10 am aware of the other cases within this Tribunal that the possibility to

11 inspect the videotapes were granted. Namely, I'm referring to Celebici

12 case and Krstic case and some other cases.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The conditions in those cases were different.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Good. Now I would like to formulate my official

15 motion. I think I'm speaking on behalf of all my colleagues that we

16 now -- let the record shows that we now are respectfully move this Trial

17 Chamber with a motion for production of videotapes of first two witnesses,

18 Mr. Donia and Mr. Tihic, on the basis that we would like to make certain

19 analyses based on the forensic issues which will help us to compare the

20 transcripts, then audiotapes, and then videotapes.

21 In addition, based on the well-established principles in

22 international conventions, European Convention on Human Rights, then the

23 Statute of this Honourable Tribunal and the international comment on -- UN

24 comment on political and the human rights, we -- I mean, this is official

25 motion.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I know. I know. I just wanted to find out

2 which article of the Tribunal Statute. Which article?

3 MR. PANTELIC: 20 and 21, where the certain rights of the accused

4 are guaranteed.

5 In the course of our defence, we think that we are entitled to

6 have an additional analysis. This is a part of Defence strategy. It does

7 not necessarily mean that we have to each -- to go into each detail. Of

8 course we would very much like to do so, but in an ex parte hearing,

9 without the presence of the other party in the proceedings.

10 And also our request is based on the fact that all these trial

11 proceedings are regularly broadcasted on various television systems,

12 including the former Yugoslavia. And with all due respect, Madam

13 President, I don't really see why the Defence should be prevented to have

14 these videotapes. It is really unclear.

15 And I already -- just for the record, Madam President, after your

16 ruling, I would very much appreciate if it could be done today or maybe in

17 these days. I would like to express my commitment to appeal this decision

18 if it will be non-favourable to Defence, because I have a basis for that.

19 This is a principle enshrined in the Rules of Procedures. It is important

20 for the Defence and for the general principles. Thank you so much.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I understand that. What I want is

22 clarification. What do you want? Copies to be given to you, Defence

23 counsels, or to inspect them within the premises of the Tribunal under the

24 supervision of the Registrar?

25 MR. PANTELIC: It can be done -- I would prefer, I mean, like all

1 my colleagues, because it's much convenient for us to be given to us for,

2 you know, an inspection in our offices here in The Hague, or maybe in the

3 premises of the Registrar. But frankly, Madam President, I really don't

4 see any particular problem. These are the open sessions. They're not --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

6 MR. PANTELIC: So I'm absolutely --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: This is the more reason why your own group of

8 Defence counsel and your assistants can be taping them from the public TV.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Then, Madam President, let me be very, very clear

10 and blunt. We are facing a Rule 77 contempt of this Tribunal. We are

11 aware about the consequences, and that would be our risk.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no.

13 MR. PANTELIC: That would be our risk.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: The public sessions are public, as you say.

15 Unless -- we haven't so far gone into private session.

16 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, of course. I don't see any particular

17 problem.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Let me, please --

20 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no. Mr. Pantelic, you are under the authority

21 of the Trial Chamber. The Trial Chamber has said so, has given you

22 permission.

23 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Because the only possible means is to allow Defence

25 counsel to view the recordings within the premises of the Tribunal under

1 this provision of the Registrar. That is possible.

2 MR. PANTELIC: With all due respect, Madam President, I don't see

3 any particular reason. Maybe we could have a possibility to be subscribed

4 on the satellite connection of the trial proceedings and then we could

5 resolve that problem. Because I mean, that's simply, absolutely illogical.

6 Also, we have this access through the Internet with Real Player tools. So

7 we could follow, with a 13-minute delay, all proceedings which are open.

8 So there is not a particular problem. It will be a little more

9 difficult for the Defence because of the transmission problems with the

10 CDs, but -- so I really don't see any basis for decision for us to be

11 prevented. We have that on Internet. We have that on the satellite

12 transmission. It's unbelievable.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no. The Trial Chamber has not yet made a

14 decision, because we are going to ask the Prosecutor to comment tomorrow

15 morning when we resume the proceedings, and then the Trial Chamber will

16 take time and make a decision.

17 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. I'm very much obliged that you hear me,

18 and these additional explanations might help with your final decision.

19 Thank you.

20 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Pantelic, perhaps you ought to explain the

21 phrase you used a little earlier by "forensic analysis."

22 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.

23 JUDGE SINGH: Yes. The Defence wants to do a forensic analysis of

24 the videotapes. What do you mean by "forensic"?

25 MR. PANTELIC: I will be precise, Your Honour, although now I'm

1 entering into the area which is more or less little bit sensitive in terms

2 of the presence of our learned colleagues from the Prosecution.

3 Your Honour, we as a Defence are entitled to engage a various

4 profile of experts including a psychiatrist, psychologist, and the other

5 experts with the great experience working in police and court. Mainly

6 they are the court expert witness. I can say that. We, as a Defence,

7 would like to get an expert opinion of the experts about a certain aspects

8 of the behaviour of witnesses. We think that we are not at this level to

9 be an expert witness, and, therefore, the Defence usually gets a -- hire

10 certain witness experts in all systems. Then --

11 JUDGE SINGH: So what will that mean, then, that basically you

12 want to show the --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Mike, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Your mike.

15 JUDGE SINGH: Sorry. What does this mean, that you want to show

16 the expert these videotapes on the evidence of Tihic and the first witness

17 so that they can make, what, some sort of analysis for you, a

18 psychological analysis so that you will be able to then carry out your

19 cross-examination more effectively?

20 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, the point is that for certain events,

21 a certain explanation is done, give by the witnesses. We have to see

22 through the experts --

23 JUDGE SINGH: No, no. My question is simple. Is it --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

25 JUDGE SINGH: Is it that you are to show these tapes to an expert,

1 some psychiatrist --

2 MR. PANTELIC: That's correct.

3 JUDGE SINGH: -- so to be better equipped to cross-examine these

4 witnesses, or is it that you want to show these tapes to him so that he

5 can then be elicited as a Defence expert, or is it both? Very simple

6 question I asked you. It requires a very simple answer.

7 MR. PANTELIC: I absolutely understand you, Your Honour. Yeah.

8 This is -- there are both aspects of this. We have to get an answer from

9 a certain expert witness to tell us simply whether to one, question -- the

10 witness is blinking more than is average in the analysis, with his eyes or

11 moving. You know, stuff like that. We want all this analysis to be

12 done.

13 We don't know on which portions or when in our cross-examination

14 we shall use this, because -- we are all professionals here, Your Honour.

15 We know exactly -- and our witness is also professional. He's police

16 expert. So we don't know how we act and how we do our job.

17 JUDGE SINGH: So what will that entail again, that we re-show

18 portions of that tape on and off, on and off again, and that means that

19 for -- we have now been sitting for about two or three weeks. Two or

20 three weeks of evidence will be re-shown or portions of it will be

21 re-shown to explain what you or your expert want to explain. So where

22 does this -- where does take us with the proceedings? Will they be unduly

23 lengthened by another, what, a week or two weeks?

24 But if you had an expert or you have intended to get an expert,

25 then the normal thing to do was to have elicited one, got one of your

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1 experts, and made him sit in this court and watch those witnesses speak,

2 and then they would be able to analyse. Wasn't that a better procedure?

3 MR. PANTELIC: That would be a very good solution, Your Honour.

4 But we have -- I must, frankly, tell you, after all these years of my

5 experience within this Tribunal and the administration, it is simply not

6 possible. I mean, we are -- have to fighting so much with the

7 administration for very simple things. And this thing, I think, with all

8 due respect, it cannot be done.

9 From time to time, we need this analysis, and this is a part of

10 our defence strategy. That's all. We are not asking to be provided with,

11 of course, private or closed session. We need open sessions which are

12 available on Internet and all broadcasting systems. That's all. That's

13 part of our Defence strategy. Maybe we are wrong. Maybe we shall lose.

14 I don't know.

15 JUDGE SINGH: Thank you.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Like I said, I'll be expecting the Prosecution

17 to respond, and then the Trial Chamber will give a decision in due

18 course. We will adjourn until tomorrow morning at 0930 hours.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.20 p.m.,

20 to be reconvened on Friday, the 28th day

21 of September, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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