1 Friday, 28 September 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Will the Registrar please call the

7 case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav

10 Tadic and Simo Zaric.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yesterday, I had indicated that I would ask the

12 Prosecutor to respond to the motion by the Defence. I will ask the

13 Prosecutor to respond briefly and thereafter we will continue with

14 cross-examination.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. If Your Honours please, I've looked at

16 the transcript dealing with the application or the motion made by

17 Mr. Pantelic, initially on Thursday the 20th of September and repeated or

18 rather raised again yesterday, yesterday afternoon. The Prosecution is in

19 a difficult position to respond, particularly because it's not entirely

20 clear what is being sought, other than the fact, of course, that they want

21 the videos. The question is for what purpose.

22 Now, this -- we narrowed the issue down yesterday, I think, when

23 Your Honour Judge Singh asked that question, "To what end do you want

24 these videos?" And the question was precisely put to counsel, and it was

25 along these lines: Do you want the tapes in order to conduct some sort of

1 forensic analysis of what the witness is saying to see how many times he

2 blinks and so on and so forth for your own purposes so that you may then

3 be better equipped to conduct a cross-examination or do you want it to

4 provide to an expert with a view to obtaining a report and with a view to

5 later producing that expert to provide evidence on issues of credibility,

6 an assessment of the credibility of the witness?

7 Now, if it's the first purpose that the Defence seeks to obtain

8 these video tapes, then the Prosecution is neutral. It matters -- it

9 doesn't matter to us if they want to take the videotapes off to however

10 many experts or others who may assist them in the conduct of their

11 prosecution. However, if it's for the second purpose, namely to arm an

12 expert - or an alleged expert, I should say - who will then, with a view

13 to eventually coming to Court and providing evidence on issues of

14 credibility, then the Prosecution most strenuously objects to the motion.

15 If I -- I'll just complete my submissions if I may, Mr. Pantelic.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, you can sit down. I know that you

17 will be able to give your --

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Yesterday we got the clearest indication that it

19 seems to be for a dual purpose, because Judge -- Your Honour Judge Singh

20 asked this:

21 "Do you want to show the expert these videotapes on the evidence

22 of Tihic and the first witness so they can make, what, some sort of

23 analysis for you, a psychological analysis so that you will be able then

24 to carry out your cross-examination more effectively?"

25 Mr. Pantelic replied:

1 "Your Honour, the point is that for certain events a certain

2 explanation is done by the witnesses."

3 Your Honour Judge Singh then went on to continue the question:

4 "So as to be better equipped to cross-examine these witnesses or

5 is it that you want to show these tapes to him so that he can then be

6 elicited as a Defence expert or is it both? Very simple question I asked

7 you. It requires a very simple answer."

8 Mr. Pantelic replied:

9 "I absolutely understand you, Your Honour, that is, there are

10 both aspects of this."

11 Now, that, I think, is the first time that it has been clearly

12 articulated that the purpose of these videotapes is twofold, (A) to assist

13 them with their own cross-examination; and (B) to arm an expert to

14 eventually come along and give evidence on issues of credibility. So I

15 started off my submissions by saying that I wasn't entirely sure what the

16 motion was for, but that throwaway line there I think finally crystallises

17 what it's for, and, therefore, the Prosecution must object to the

18 grounding of the motion.

19 The second purpose, what the Prosecution says is the offending

20 purpose, is objected to on this basis, and it's a very simple basis: You

21 are the Judges of fact, and you are the Judges of credibility, and that

22 role must not and cannot be usurped by an expert. That would be

23 tantamount to taking away your role if eventually if an expert were to be

24 brought along to Court by the Defence.

25 But it's a strange situation because we haven't reached that

1 stage. All that is being sought at this stage is the videotapes, with an

2 explanation that ultimately one of these two purposes -- sorry, these two

3 purposes are going to be followed up, so to speak.

4 So that's the position of the Prosecution. It is a principle of

5 law that I submit is completely well known and common throughout the

6 common law world, that experts on issues of credibility are not allowed.

7 It is certainly the position in Australia, it is certainly the position in

8 Hong Kong. I have spoken to my colleague Mr. Weiner. He instructs me and

9 tells me it is certainly the position in the United States of America, and

10 I believe it to be the position in the United Kingdom and Canada as well.

11 My learned friend Mr. Weiner also informs me that the American position is

12 that in any event, such evidence is not considered scientifically

13 reliable. But in any event, whether it is or isn't considered

14 scientifically reliable, the fact is that the initial offence is caused by

15 the simple fact that it usurps, it sakes takes away your function.

16 So if that's the ultimate purpose for these videotapes to be

17 produced to the Defence, then it is -- the motion is strenuously objected

18 to.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. I think Mr. Pantelic -- are you through

20 with that?

21 MR. DI FAZIO: I just wanted to make one last comment. My learned

22 friend Mr. Pantelic referred to or sought assistance from the decision in

23 Celebici. With respect, one cannot think of a more irrelevant decision.

24 That dealt with a completely different set of facts. It was totally

25 unrelated to this situation. In this situation, the videotapes are being

1 sought, I think, for those twofold purposes. In Celebici it was for the

2 conduct of an appeal and for another issue that had taken place in the

3 trial, and it is just of no use or assistance to you at all. So that's

4 all I want to say about Celebici.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Mr. Pantelic, you can reply very

6 briefly.

7 MR. PANTELIC: Ten seconds, Your Honour. I agree with the

8 Prosecution of the Prosecutor, and I would like just to clarify the

9 situation. I am applying only on the first purposes, which mean that we

10 would like to have these audiotapes with us, with the Defence and our

11 support staff, including some experts. We -- I would like to outline. We

12 would not like and we are not -- we are not having any intention to call

13 any expert witness for this purpose with regard to the possible

14 credibility of the witness. So the second purpose is not the case. So we

15 can clarify the situation now.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. So now what you want are audiotapes.

17 MR. PANTELIC: That's right.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: But these you were granted.

19 MR. PANTELIC: No, witness to be -- to be here before the Trial

20 Chamber.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: The audiotapes you were granted yesterday, that you

22 can have the audiotapes.

23 MR. PANTELIC: Videotapes. I'm speaking about videotapes.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Videotapes.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. All right.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. The cross-examination will proceed with

4 Mr. Pisarevic.

5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours; good

6 morning, my learned friends.

7 WITNESS: DRAGAN LUKAC [Resumed]

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Pisarevic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Lukac. Let us try to clarify a

11 few things. Would you agree with me that the Republican Ministry of the

12 Interior of Bosnia and Herzegovina consisted of two segments or two

13 services which is the state security services and the public security

14 services?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. Can we say that state security had its own organisation?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can we agree that within the Ministry there was a state security

19 service with the seat in Sarajevo?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can we agree that there existed a sector of state security within

22 the security centre in Doboj?

23 A. Yes, but you are using the eastern dialect and it was western.

24 Q. Correct. And was there a field office in Modrica?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Can we agree that that field office covered the municipalities of

2 Modrica, Samac, and Odzak?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can we agree further that the state security field office was the

5 lowest-level organisation within the hierarchy?

6 A. I wouldn't say it is the lowest. I think that it is just the

7 basic form of that service. I mean, in terms of its establishment.

8 Q. Can we then agree that, within the organisational scheme, in terms

9 of its competences and its authority, it is the lowest?

10 A. I wouldn't be able to answer that question. I'm not competent

11 enough to make a judgement on that.

12 Q. Very well. Do you know the procedures or the work procedures of

13 the state security?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Do you know the work procedure of the public security service?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can we agree that the state security sector was -- within the

18 Doboj Security Centre was Marko Brezanic, who was an ethnic Croat?

19 A. It depends on the time period.

20 Q. I'm referring to the time period when Mr. Zaric was the chief of

21 the field office of Modrica State Security?

22 A. During one period of time, yes.

23 Q. You mentioned the reserve force of the state security during your

24 testimony.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Can we agree that this reserve force was organised as part of the

2 republican Secretariat for the Internal Affairs?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Can we then agree that the state security had this reserve force?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did members of this reserve force of the state security have the

7 same authority as the state security employees?

8 A. I don't know that.

9 Q. You pointed out in your -- during your evidence that Pejo Krnic,

10 who was a Bosniak Croat by ethnicity, was your immediate superior; is that

11 correct?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. Did you -- were you duty-bound, according to the rules of your

14 work, to report immediately to your immediate superior?

15 A. At all -- all information went to the Doboj centre as the superior

16 centre, to the public stations within the territory, and the same

17 information went to the republican centre and it depended on the sector.

18 If it was like crime-prevention matter, it went to the appropriate sector

19 of the republican ministry.

20 Q. Let me ask you this: Were you authorised in any way to bypass

21 that institution?

22 A. I don't know which institution you're referring to.

23 Q. Your immediate superior.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: If you can wait for the witness to complete his

25 answer because you're speaking the same language so the interpreters are

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1 having to run.

2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, we will do our best.

3 I'll try to slow down.

4 A. Can you please repeat the question?

5 Q. Yes, I can. And the question was: Could you, in your method of

6 work, as chief of crime-prevention unit, could you bypass your immediate

7 superior in the Doboj Public Security Centre, specifically Mr. Pejo Krnic,

8 and to forward your information directly to the Ministry of the Interior,

9 that is to the minister?

10 A. That could happen, but as a rule did not happen.

11 Q. Can we then agree that the rules, if you follow the rules, this

12 would not happen?

13 A. For the most part, it did not.

14 Q. Would my conclusion be correct if I said that if the field office

15 of the state security in Modrica, which was headed by Mr. Simo Zaric, and

16 he's passing on certain information about you, caused you to be angry at

17 him?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Can you then explain to me why in your books and especially in the

20 book titled, "Samac, a Town -- the Town Camp," and, "From Skica to The

21 Hague," that to describe Mr. Zaric as a human being would be wrong?

22 A. In the context of -- in the context of the statements that I gave

23 to the Tribunal Prosecutors and in my evidence here, I never mentioned my

24 books and what I wrote in my books, and I would like to inform this Trial

25 Chamber that Mr. Simo Zaric, in 1998, when he came -- when he was going to

1 the detention unit here, gave a statement to the television of Republika

2 Srpska, when asked who had issued an indictment against him, he said that

3 it was Dragan Lukac. I am not Richard Goldstone, I am not Carla Del

4 Ponte. It is clear who is issuing indictments here and I believe that the

5 questions that Mr. -- counsel is asking of me should be viewed in that

6 light exclusively.

7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I feel compelled to

8 say that what I am asking here and what I am examining on, I am doing to

9 enable the Trial Chamber to gain information about the credibility of this

10 witness. I did mention the books written by Mr. Lukac because, in those

11 books, a lot of untruths has been written, and serious accusations about

12 my client, Simo Zaric.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, you are not going to give evidence. You

14 are cross-examining the witness, and the witness is obliged to answer. If

15 the Trial Chamber feels that the questions are not fair, then the Trial

16 Chamber will say so. You are not giving evidence. You should simply ask

17 him questions, challenge him on credibility and so on. You are not giving

18 evidence.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I heard what Your Honours

20 just -- what Your Honour just said. There is one additional factor. I

21 have no objection to Mr. Pisarevic, of course, wanting to put previous

22 statements, whether in statement form or book form, to the witness, but

23 the specification of the statements, the previous statement, should be a

24 little clearer. I didn't object initially, but having seen it in context,

25 the allegation was that Mr. Zaric was not -- you can't describe Mr. Zaric

1 as a human being. The actual phrase in the book or portion of the book

2 should be put with more specificity to the witness so that he knows

3 exactly what he's called upon to answer.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sure counsel have understood what the

5 Prosecution has said, and will you please put the question and the

6 statement in its context, according to how the book was written?

7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, I

8 understood your instructions and your advisement but I reacted in this way

9 because my -- the witness was unresponsive to my question.

10 Q. Mr. Lukac, in the book, "Samac, the Town Camp," on page 37 said,

11 "People who know him better know that he does not have human conscience.

12 It is probable that the word 'human being' or 'man' is -- would

13 misdescribe such a person."

14 Did you write that?

15 A. Yes, I did, and I stand by it.

16 Q. Did you write in that book that he used lies?

17 A. It is possible. I cannot say out of context.

18 Q. Did you say that he used deception?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Did you say that he engaged in criminal acts?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. Did you countless times call him Serbo-Chetnik and an advocate of

23 Greater Serbia?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Let us go back to your statement given to this Tribunal. It's

1 transcript page 1560 to 1610. It is line 15. This is on 24 September.

2 At least on two occasions during your evidence, you mentioned mixed

3 marriages, married to a Serb woman, children from mixed families; is that

4 correct?

5 A. That is possible.

6 Q. Do I understand this correctly, that you condemn mixed marriages

7 or disagree with intermarriage between different ethnic groups?

8 A. That is not correct. If you really want to know, my sister is

9 married to a Serb.

10 Q. Thank you. In your statements and books, you attach great

11 importance to this subject. You mention that a mixed marriage was one of

12 the prerequisites for advancement in one's career.

13 A. Yes, in the case of Croats in the territory of the municipality

14 Bosanski Samac.

15 Q. Was it a precondition for the Serbs?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Was it a precondition for the Muslims?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Very well. Thank you. In your book "Bosanski Samac a Camp Town",

20 on page 24, you actually said the wife of Simo Zaric, otherwise a Muslim,

21 converted to Othodox Christianity and changed her name to Jevrosima. Is

22 that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. However, that is not correct.

25 A. The information I had confirms that. And it was not only his

1 wife, but also his brother-in-law Fadil Topcagic.

2 Q. Is all the information you have received correct?

3 A. I believe they are.

4 Q. When you decide to write something, is it your basic duty to check

5 your information out?

6 A. To the extent to which this is possible in conditions of war, and

7 these books were written during the war, Mr. Pisarevic.

8 Q. I'm fully aware of when they were written. However, did you get

9 any information after the war?

10 A. The information I got after the war regarding the subject that we

11 are discussing right now only confirmed that. And also, the name of

12 Mr. Zaric's brother-in-law is now Nebojsa Paunovic.

13 I got that information from citizens of Serb ethnicity from

14 Bosanski Samac, if you're really interested in that.

15 JUDGE SINGH: I think we have reminded both of you. Mr. Lukac,

16 you're giving evidence in this Court, not having a conversation with him.

17 And Mr. Pisarevic, this is not a forum for conversation between the both

18 of you. So please pause at the relevant time so that it will help the

19 interpreters, and it will also help the Tribunal.

20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your advice, Your

21 Honour. I shall try. But I would also kindly ask Mr. Lukac, since he

22 understands what I'm saying, could he please pause before he answers in

23 order to give the interpreters enough time to interpret the question.

24 JUDGE SINGH: Yes. I think I've also addressed you, Mr. Lukac.

25 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask Mr. Lukac to

1 try to answer the questions the same way he answered the questions when he

2 was being examined by my learned friend the Prosecutor. This would

3 certainly facilitate our communication. Very well. Thank you.

4 Q. Mr. Lukac, can we agree that at the multi-party elections in 1990,

5 three national parties won, namely, the Party of Democratic Action, the

6 Serb Democratic Party, and the Croat Democratic Union, both in the

7 republic and also at the level of the municipality of Bosanski Samac?

8 Isn't that right?

9 A. I would not agree with the word you used, "won." These parties

10 obtained a certain number of votes like the other parties that took part

11 in the elections and that also obtained a certain portion of the vote.

12 Q. Obtaining votes at an election, isn't that winning an election?

13 A. That is the outcome of the election. For example, the SDP won

14 more votes than the SDA.

15 Q. Mr. Lukac, at the outset I asked you to answer some of my

16 questions or, rather, all of my questions, wherever this is possible, just

17 with a yes or a no so that both of you and would not burden the Trial

18 Chamber with unnecessary matters and our own perceptions of certain terms

19 and things like that.

20 Do you agree that as for these political parties, that is to say,

21 the SDA, the SDS, and the HDZ, they organised the government in Bosanski

22 Samac, sharing power there?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. As for these principles regarding the election outcome, were they

25 applied in the municipal government and in the business sector?

1 A. In part.

2 Q. Do you agree with me that in the local commune of Bosanski Samac,

3 power was shared in the same way?

4 A. I don't know about that.

5 Q. Do you agree with me that the president of the assembly of the

6 local commune was the candidate of the Serb Democratic Party, Mr. Ilija

7 Ristic?

8 A. Possibly. I'm not quite sure.

9 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the president of the council of the

10 commune was Mr. Safet Hadzialijagic, on behalf of the SDA?

11 A. Yes, he was, after the election was repeated in that local

12 commune.

13 Q. Do you agree with me that in 1990, the legal grounds for carrying

14 out and organising the elections, as well as the functioning and

15 organisation of government, were the constitution of the SFRY, the

16 constitution of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, both of

17 these constitutions having been adopted in 1974?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In your statement, when you spoke about the general situation in

20 Bosanski Samac, you mentioned a few incidents. Actually, could you please

21 answer the following: Were there some other incidents as well that you

22 did not mention?

23 A. I cannot recall. Could you please jog my memory, if possible?

24 Q. Very well. Is it correct that in July 1991, while a person was in

25 his boat on the Sava River, from the other river bank, from the Croatian

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1 side, he was wounded? This was Pero Maksimovic, a Serb from Pisari?

2 A. This incident did occur, but it occurred in the Republic of

3 Croatia, not Bosanski Samac.

4 Q. Did that incident occur on the Sava River?

5 A. Yes, but on the other side of the border, in the Republic of

6 Croatia.

7 Q. Did this incident occur on the river or on land?

8 A. On the river.

9 Q. What are your grounds for claiming that this occurred on the

10 territory of the Republic of Croatia?

11 A. I'm claiming that because the incident occurred beyond the border,

12 that is to say on the other side of the border that belongs to the

13 Republic of Croatia.

14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pisarevic.

15 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I don't want to pursue the issue.

16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I just want to ask a clarification from

17 Mr. Lukac, please. Am I understanding you correctly, Mr. Lukac, when you

18 say that this incident occurred on the Croatian side of the border, if it

19 was on a boat in the river, am I understanding you to mean that we would,

20 say we say, see a median line drawn down the centre of the river so there

21 would be the Croatian side of the river and the banks, the land, and on

22 the other side, the Bosnian-Hercegovinian portion of the river and the

23 land? Am I understanding correctly that that would be your thought?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.

25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. You mentioned that a unit of the specials forces of the republican

3 MUP from Sarajevo came?

4 A. I never mentioned a special unit. I mentioned a joint unit of the

5 Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

6 Q. I allow for that.

7 A. The difference is major.

8 Q. Very well. They came from Sarajevo.

9 A. No. They did not come from Sarajevo. They came from the Ministry

10 of the Interior, from the seat of the ministry in Sarajevo. However, the

11 members of this unit were members of the police force from all over

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Defence counsel, please.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, I think you are too far from the

15 microphone.

16 MR. PISAREVIC:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Can you confirm that an incident occurred

18 involving armed ethnic Croats from another municipality?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, just -- I think that the question was

21 from Odzak municipality. I don't see that in the transcript. Odzak,

22 which is the neighbouring municipality to Samac; is that correct?

23 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 MR. PANTELIC: I don't see that in the transcript.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that "Odzak" was inaudible and

1 that the interpreters have trouble hearing Defence counsel. Could he

2 kindly speak into the microphone?

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Please speak into the microphone, and can you repeat

4 your question? Because the interpreters have a problem picking you up.

5 MR. PISAREVIC:

6 Q. [Interpretation] The question was: Do you remember an incident in

7 a conflict, Mr. Lukac, that took place between the members of the joint

8 unit of the Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina with armed

9 ethnic Croats from the municipality of Odzak?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you confirm that on the 14th of February 1992, in the Cafe

12 Valentino, there was an explosion, a bomb went off, killing two young men

13 of Muslim ethnicity, Enver Bobic and Mesad Hadzialijagic, while they were

14 tossing the bomb to one another?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can we agree that this incident upset the citizens of Bosanski

17 Samac very much?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you confirm that that evening, there was a major gathering of

20 ethnic Muslims in front of the public security station in Samac?

21 A. Yes, because the citizens thought that this incident had something

22 to do with ethnic origins. However, when the investigation was carried

23 out, what you have just mentioned was confirmed, and that took care of the

24 matter because this was not an interethnic conflict of any kind.

25 Q. Do you agree with me that, with regard to this incident, it was

1 the Serbs and the Yugoslav People's Army that were being accused?

2 A. No. Croats from the territory of the municipality of Orasje were

3 being accused of having done that.

4 Q. Do you agree with me that with regard to this situation, and

5 strained interethnic relations, a rally of citizens of the local commune

6 of Samac was held in the cinema hall?

7 A. Possibly, but I really don't remember that. I do know, though,

8 that after more light was shed on the event, which was on the very next

9 day, these tensions abated.

10 Q. Does that mean that you did not attend this rally of citizens?

11 A. In the cinema?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. I don't remember.

14 Q. As chief of the crime-prevention service, were you informed or

15 were you aware of the following: That towards the end of March 1992, a

16 leaflet was being distributed in town with a list of names of alleged

17 traitors to their own people, who were members of the 4th Detachment of

18 the Yugoslav People's Army, actually?

19 A. I remember that.

20 Q. Did you have this leaflet in your hands?

21 A. I don't think so.

22 Q. Do you know that some persons whose names were on that leaflet

23 were wounded on the 2nd of April in a particular incident that occurred in

24 Bosanski Samac?

25 A. I don't know which incident you're referring to.

1 Q. The incident that you spoke of when you said that the members of

2 the 4th Detachment shot at the police patrol.

3 A. This incident did occur. However, I do not know whether persons

4 from this list that you are referring to were involved in this incident,

5 because I do not know whose names were on that list.

6 Q. This patrol that you refer to, was that a patrol of the regular

7 police or of the reserve police force?

8 A. It was a regular police patrol. Members of the reserve police

9 force were also included in it. However, in these conditions, members of

10 the reserve police force have the same rights and duties as active-duty

11 policemen.

12 Q. In your testimony before this Trial Chamber - I'm referring to

13 page 1571 of the transcript, lines 14 and 15 - you asserted that members

14 of the 4th Detachment caused this incident.

15 A. Correct.

16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we just have a

17 very brief minute to consult?

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can go ahead.

19 [Defence counsel confer]

20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. May we

21 proceed, please?

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, go ahead.

23 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Q. As head of the crime prevention service, did you carry out an

25 on-site investigation together with the investigating judge on the actual

1 site?

2 A. I cannot recall whether I was on the team that was carrying out

3 the on-site investigation, but I was at the site as this was taking

4 place.

5 Q. As for the persons who were wounded in this incident, did you

6 treat them as civilians or as members of the Yugoslav People's Army?

7 A. Well, I can't remember all the elements involved in this

8 particular situation. However, it was quite clear that they were members

9 of the 4th Detachment or, rather, the JNA.

10 Q. Were these persons wearing uniforms?

11 A. I can't remember that. I believe they didn't. However, when I

12 came to the site, they were no longer there because they had been

13 wounded. They were taken to the medical centre or, rather, the hospital

14 so that they would be given medical treatment.

15 Q. Did you find weapons in their car?

16 A. I can't remember all the details. This event took place ten years

17 ago. However, on the basis of what was found on the site in terms of

18 evidence and also with regard to the testimony given by eyewitnesses, I

19 believe that everything took place the way I described it.

20 Q. Was the usual procedure applied in the investigation with regard

21 to this shootout and the wounding of several persons?

22 A. There was an on-site investigation at the site of this crime, and

23 this, according to law, is done by an investigating judge and further

24 action is taken on that basis.

25 Q. Did you take statements from those witnesses as an operative? And

1 I'm now referring primarily to the injured persons.

2 A. From what I recall, yes, statements were taken.

3 Q. Do you know which persons were members of the reserve police

4 patrol who had shot at these people?

5 A. I cannot recall the names of those policemen, but I know there

6 that were four policemen in that patrol.

7 Q. Do you remember taking their weapons for expert analysis?

8 A. I cannot remember but I believe that everything that should have

9 been done in terms of police work and everything that was objectively

10 possible under the circumstances in which all this happened, that all that

11 was done.

12 Q. Did you file any criminal complaint against any of the persons who

13 took part in this incident?

14 A. I cannot recall that. You can check the records from that period

15 that are in the police station.

16 Q. Do you know whether these persons, that is, the reserve police

17 officers who had opened fire, stayed on in their jobs in the Bosanski

18 Samac police station?

19 A. I think that a number of them did not stay in those jobs, for they

20 feared for their personal safety, that is.

21 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Lukac, can you clarify if this sort of an

22 incident between what you allege are people of the 4th Detachment and the

23 police, whether this sort of an incident, for investigation purposes, came

24 under state security or public security?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Public security.

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1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. When it was obvious that these were members of the 4th Detachment,

3 did you notify the command of the 4th Detachment or the 17th Tactical

4 Group that the incident had taken place?

5 A. As far as this incident is concerned, the military structures had

6 complete information. That same night, a meeting was held at the police

7 station. I cannot recall who attended it, but I know that Mr. Zaric was

8 there on behalf of the 4th Detachment, and everything regarding this

9 incident was available to the JNA because Mr. Zaric was present there at

10 that meeting in the police station.

11 Q. Is it a rule that when an incident takes place which involves

12 members of the JNA that their security organs are also involved in the

13 crime-scene investigation?

14 A. Who is involved in the investigation and who is present at the

15 crime scene is something that is decided by the investigative magistrate,

16 but Mr. Zaric was also present when the investigation was taking place,

17 and some other members of the 4th Detachment also may have been present

18 there. I don't remember now.

19 In other words, it is not within the police competence who was

20 going to make up the investigating team. It is up to the investigative

21 magistrate to decide on that.

22 Q. At that time, Mr. Zaric was present as a citizen who was observing

23 this or was he a deputy commander for intelligence of the 4th Detachment?

24 A. I cannot say either, but if the crime-scene investigation is

25 taking place at 2.00 or 3.00 in the morning, a regular citizen would

1 likely be at home and asleep and not present there.

2 Q. Can you please tell us when exactly did this incident take place,

3 at what time?

4 A. I cannot remember when exactly, but I know that the crime-scene

5 investigation was conducted late at night, after midnight.

6 Q. When did you arrive at the scene?

7 A. I arrived at the scene after I was informed about the incident

8 having taken place.

9 Q. Can you specify about what time that was?

10 A. I cannot specify the time because it's an incident from about ten

11 years ago, but I know that it was late at night.

12 Q. Do you agree that members of the SDA erected barricades at the

13 approaches of Bosanski Samac?

14 A. Yes, that did happen.

15 Q. Could we say that the barricades were erected at the approaches to

16 the town leading to the villages with majority Serbian population?

17 A. From what I recall, the barricades were erected on two roads, two

18 roads leading into the town. If you look at the fact that the town of

19 Bosanski Samac was surrounded by Serb-populated villages, then I can agree

20 with what you say. I don't know whether members of the SDA were the ones

21 who had set up those barricades, but I would rather describe it as members

22 of the Bosniak ethnic group in Bosanski Samac.

23 Q. Can you agree with me that the barricades were not erected on the

24 other side of town, in the direction of the village of Prud, which is

25 populated by ethnic Croats?

1 A. Yes, but you also need to take into account how the road leading

2 to that village looks.

3 Q. Do you know that these barricades, in addition to the members of

4 Bosniak ethnic group and SDA, were also manned by some reserve policemen

5 who were of Muslim ethnic background?

6 A. I did not go to any of those barricades, so I am unable to give

7 you a specific answer to it, but it is possible.

8 Q. Can you confirm that persons who were manning the barricades were

9 armed, automatic weapons?

10 A. I do know that they had some weapons but I don't know what type.

11 Q. Do you know how these weapons were acquired?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you know what happened in town when the barricades were set up

14 by Muslims?

15 A. Are you referring to the reason why they were set up?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. I believe I know what had happened.

18 Q. Can we agree that a military police patrol took away two weapons

19 from an SDA patrol?

20 A. I think that there were three, not two, automatic rifles.

21 Q. Did you take possession of those, as you put it, three rifles from

22 the garrison in Brcko?

23 A. I did. In fact, I was present when the weapons that you're

24 referring to were exchanged for the weapons which our police had taken

25 from the members of the JNA.

1 Q. Mr. Lukac, I asked you about the rifles that the military police

2 had taken from an SDA patrol.

3 A. Yes, I understood you.

4 Q. You returned those rifles to the persons who were in charge of

5 those weapons?

6 A. No. After I returned from the JNA barracks in Brcko, I placed

7 these rifles in the metal safe which we saw in a video there yesterday,

8 and they remained there until the attack, that is the occupation of the

9 Serb forces in Samac. They were not returned to anyone.

10 Q. Did representatives of the SDA come and ask that you return those

11 weapons to them?

12 A. Correct, but I did not do that.

13 Q. Did you file a criminal complaint against the persons who

14 possessed those weapons and from whom you took those weapons?

15 A. A criminal complaint for what?

16 Q. It is based on Article 213 of the Criminal Code of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 A. No, I did not. If I had filed those, I also needed to have also

19 filed the same complaints against 2.000 persons of Serb ethnic background,

20 who also were armed and who also had acquired those weapons and acquired

21 them before the Croats and Muslims had done.

22 Q. Mr. Lukac, can you please answer the question that I asked of

23 you? I'm not saying that you should have, but the fact is that you did

24 not. Do we agree on that?

25 A. We do, and I explained why.

1 Q. Let me remind you also that you omitted to mention a sabotage that

2 took place on the 27th of January 1992, on St. Sava's Day, when a chapel

3 in the orthodox cemetery was blown up and destroyed; is that correct?

4 A. That incident did take place. The chapel was not destroyed. It

5 was just lightly damaged.

6 Q. According to your evidence, none of the 23 incidents of sabotage

7 were solved by the Samac Public Security Station, nor were any

8 perpetrators of any of those acts of sabotage ever found; is that true?

9 A. I never stated that anywhere.

10 Q. Do you agree that at that time, the chief of Samac Public Security

11 Station was Vinko Dragicevic, an ethnic Croat?

12 A. I don't know to which period you're referring.

13 Q. This -- during the period of that incident, from that incident

14 until in late -- in late 1991 until April of 1992.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you confirm for me that you, Mr. Lukac, were the chief of the

17 crime-prevention unit at the public security station in Samac, and that

18 you are an ethnic Croat?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you agree that the investigating magistrates of the court in

21 Bosanski Samac, who went to crime scene for investigations, were

22 Mr. Zeljko Senic and Mr. Zdenko Stanic, and that they were both ethnic

23 Croats?

24 A. The two persons that you just mentioned are ethnic Croats, and

25 they worked as investigating magistrates, but I cannot tell you to which

1 investigations they -- in which investigations they were involved.

2 If you're pointing that out, though, you also should point out

3 that the public prosecutor for the area was an ethnic Serb, and he was

4 also involved in various investigations.

5 Q. We have already agreed that your immediate superior in the Doboj

6 Public Security Centre was Pejo Krnic, who is an ethnic Croat.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you agree that the Minister of the Republican Ministry of the

9 Interior of Bosnia and Herzegovina was Alija Delimustafic, an ethnic

10 Muslim?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can we agree that the public security station in Samac did not

13 discover any instances of illegal acquisition and sale of weapons?

14 A. I cannot recall whether that was exactly the case. I don't know

15 if there was one instance, five, but taking into account the amounts of

16 weapons that citizens were acquiring at the time, the cases of its

17 discovery were very few.

18 Q. Can you confirm the fact that no criminal complaint was ever filed

19 pursuant to Article 213 of the Criminal Code of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

20 A. That is not correct.

21 Q. Can you remember a single case in which you filed such a complaint

22 against any person?

23 A. Yes, I can. I can recall.

24 Q. Can you give us a name of such a person?

25 A. In the middle of October 1991, a police patrol of the Bosanski

1 Samac Public Security Station stopped - and this was in the village of

2 Donji Hasici - stopped a vehicle which had Vukovar licence plates. After

3 a search was conducted of the vehicle and persons there, it was determined

4 that there were two people of Serb ethnic background wearing JNA uniforms,

5 and they had been at the Vukovar front. Several pieces of automatic

6 weapons were found in the vehicle, as well as some hand grenades. These

7 persons were detained, brought to the police station, and a criminal

8 report was filed, and also detention was ordered for them. They were then

9 remanded to the district prison in Doboj.

10 Several days later, these persons were released from the Doboj

11 prison by the investigating judge, and an order was issued that the

12 weapons be returned to them, and that was done. So that is one example.

13 Q. Can we agree then that the action of the public security station

14 was illegal?

15 A. No. The action of the public security station was legal, but

16 those who continued with the -- with this case did something that was

17 illegal.

18 Q. Are you saying that the -- what the courts did was illegal?

19 A. I'm not going to go as far as saying that, but I'm going to say

20 that some individuals within the court system did things that were

21 illegal, and in the prosecutor's office.

22 Q. You will agree with me that you were appointed chief of the public

23 security station in Bosanski Samac on -- as a member [as interpreted] of

24 the HDZ, and that was on 11 April 1992?

25 A. That is partly correct. On the 11th of April, 1992, HDZ of

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1 Bosanski Samac sent a proposal to the Ministry of Bosnia-Herzegovina to be

2 appointed acting chief of the public security station, and my appointment

3 was then followed up by the Ministry.

4 I was not a member of the HDZ then, and I am not that now, and I

5 don't consider that fact not to be a sin, but I was indeed nominated by

6 the HDZ as an ethnic Croat. I was approached and I had a conversation

7 with the HDZ president beforehand, and Mr. Blagoje Simic, President of the

8 SDS, was also present during that interview.

9 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honours, just a

10 moment.

11 [Defence counsel confer]

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the transcript it

13 says that I said that Mr. Lukic at was a member of the HDZ. I said that

14 he was a candidate, and I never said that Mr. Lukac was a member of the

15 HDZ. He was just a candidate of the HDZ.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you for correcting. Maybe the witness

17 can respond to that.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I have already given an

19 answer. I don't know that I need to give any further answers.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no. You did say you were not a member, but were

21 you a candidate for HDZ?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I was nominated by the local

23 board of the HDZ in Bosanski Samac for that position. Perhaps I need to

24 point out that the position of the Minister of the Bosnia and Herzegovina,

25 after the multi-party election, was that the parties would -- offered two

1 candidates. That was the chief of police and the commander of the

2 uniformed police, based on the election results. Political parties could

3 not nominate any other candidates. This was in order to keep the

4 professional nature of the police work intact.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Counsel, proceed.

6 MR. PISAREVIC:

7 Q. [Interpretation] When you became acting chief of the public

8 security station in Bosanski Samac, did you bring from Slavonski Brod,

9 which is in the Republic of Croatia, did you bring 20 police uniforms?

10 A. Yes, but it wasn't 20. It was -- the quantity was much larger.

11 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. I think that this

12 would be the right time. We could take a break now.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will take our break now and resume our

14 proceedings at 1130 hours.

15 --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic is still cross-examining.

18 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Q. Mr. Lukac, is it correct that as chief of police in Samac, you

20 gave 25 automatic and semi-automatic rifles to ethnic Croat police?

21 A. Before I gave these weapons -- before I gave them these weapons, I

22 admitted them into the reserve police force, because, on the reserve

23 police force in Bosanski Samac, there were not enough Croats, in terms of

24 the numbers and ethnic proportions that were stipulated by law.

25 Q. I'm just asking you whether this is correct or not.

1 A. I already said it is correct.

2 Q. You mentioned in your statement that there were incidents in other

3 neighbouring municipalities, Orasje, Gradacac, Modrica, Brod, et cetera.

4 I'm referring to the transcript 1577, and I'm referring to 1578, line 1.

5 Are you aware of an incident on the territory of the municipality

6 of Odzak when armed civilians who were ethnic Croats attacked and

7 surrounded the public security station in Odzak?

8 A. I know that this incident occurred. However, I'm not aware of any

9 of the circumstances involved.

10 Q. Thank you. Can you corroborate the fact that in the Croat

11 villages, there were armed, established, paramilitary, illegal units of

12 the Bosnian Croats?

13 A. I cannot. I can corroborate something else.

14 Q. I'm just asking you about the Croat villages.

15 A. Yes, yes, that's what I'm saying, that in Croat villages, there

16 were armed groups of citizens who were prepared to defend their homes and

17 their lives.

18 Q. Thank you. As chief of police, were you aware of the fact that in

19 the Croat villages, there were checkpoints with village patrols?

20 A. I was chief of police five days prior to the outbreak of the war,

21 and I am aware of the fact that you referred to.

22 Q. Thank you. Are you aware of the fact that in the centre of the

23 village of Prud, there was a checkpoint where there were soldiers in black

24 uniforms and with weapons?

25 A. I'm not aware of that. This is the first time I hear of that,

1 from you.

2 Q. Are you aware of the fact that from the village of Gornji Hasici,

3 which is a Croat village, a shell was fired from a mortar on the 8th of

4 February 1992, at the Serb village of Skaric? Truth to tell, there

5 weren't any casualties.

6 A. I remember that some kind of an event occurred of this nature but

7 not in the way that you are portraying it.

8 Q. But can you remember, then, what happened?

9 A. I cannot remember the details, but I know that in some house,

10 something was fired from either this kind of weapon or another, but it was

11 either a grenade or some other thing, but I do not know that it was fired

12 against the Serb village.

13 Q. Were you at the on-site investigation?

14 A. No, I was not.

15 Q. Are you aware of the following fact, and can you confirm it? On

16 the 26th of March 1992, that there was a massacre of Serb civilians by the

17 HVO and the ZNGs from Croatia, in the Serb village of Sijekovac in the

18 territory of the municipality of Bosanski Brod?

19 A. I'm not aware of that.

20 Q. Are you aware of the fact that Biljana Plavsic, as member of the

21 Presidency of the Serb people, and Franjo Boras, as member of the

22 Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, representative of the Croat people,

23 were in the village of Sijekovac in the territory of the municipality of

24 Bosanski Brod on the 27th of March, 1992?

25 A. I remember that I saw this on television, their stay in Bosanski

1 Brod, but I cannot really remember the dates. However --

2 Q. My question is: Is it correct that they were there?

3 A. They were in the territory of the municipality of Bosanski Brod.

4 However, you have to bear in mind the fact that the war broke out in

5 Bosanski Brod on the 3rd of March, 1992.

6 Q. I didn't ask you that.

7 A. However, that is very important.

8 Q. Mr. Lukac, I have to remind you that you are a witness in these

9 proceedings. You are not an expert, and you are not the Trial Chamber

10 itself. What is important for these proceedings will be decided by the

11 Trial Chamber.

12 Are you aware of the fact that on the 18th of November, 1991, the

13 Croat people decided on the establishment of the Croat Community of

14 Herceg-Bosna?

15 A. At that time, I was not aware of that.

16 Q. Are you aware of that now?

17 A. I heard about that during the war.

18 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the Bosnian Croats in

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, on the 8th of April, 1992, established the Croat

20 Defence Council of the Croat Community of Herceg-Bosna?

21 A. At that time, I was not aware of this fact. Now I am aware of it,

22 and I do not know on what date it was established.

23 Q. Thank you. In your statement, you mentioned patrols of the SDA

24 and also that you were aware of their existence and their activity; is

25 that correct?

1 A. Of their existence, yes.

2 Q. You also stated that the police tolerated this.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were you referring to yourself personally having said that?

5 A. At that time, I was not in charge of looking into such matters and

6 making such decisions. However, if you're asking me, I think that this is

7 something that could have been tolerated because the citizens do have the

8 right to self-defence if they are imperilled.

9 Q. Please. Chief Vinko Dragicevic, a Bosnian Croat, did he tolerate

10 that?

11 A. If we say that they existed, that means that he tolerated that.

12 Q. Does that mean that the police was aware of the existence of the

13 Muslim party militia which had armed patrols patrolling Samac and that

14 they did not take anything -- take any action in this regard at all?

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Prosecution.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I am concerned about that

17 question. I don't recall any evidence from this witness to the effect

18 that there was a Muslim party militia. The effect of his evidence was

19 that there was some sort of informal patrol around the town, and I recall

20 that he said they gathered in the central part of town. I can't recall if

21 he said that they were armed. But he never described them as a militia or

22 said anything that indicated that they were a militia. The question

23 assumes that that is his position.

24 I don't object to the issue being explored, but I think we have to

25 know first whether that is the position of Mr. Lukac, that there was, in

1 fact, a thing such as a Muslim militia. Otherwise, the Chamber might get

2 some sort of wrong idea of what exactly the witness is saying.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I'm sure counsel has understood the

4 explanation or semi-objection of the Prosecution to the question. Maybe

5 counsel can rephrase the question.

6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I have understood. Thank you.

7 Q. Were only members of the Muslim people and members of the Party of

8 Democratic Action on these patrols only?

9 A. Bosniak people from Bosanski Samac. I can confirm that. And

10 whether they were all members of the Party of Democratic Action is

11 something that I don't know.

12 Q. Very well. The members of these patrols, since they were

13 tolerated anyway, did they have automatic weapons?

14 A. We have already discussed this. It is a fact that automatic

15 rifles were already taken from one such patrol, and that confirms that

16 this was done.

17 Q. Can we agree that the public security station did not do anything

18 about the appearance of these patrols in the town of Samac?

19 A. There was no need to do anything.

20 Q. Can citizens get a permit to carry automatic weapons at all?

21 A. According to the laws that were in force at that time, not a single

22 citizen can obtain a permit to carry automatic firearms. However, that

23 provision pertained to citizens of all ethnic backgrounds.

24 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Could I please ask the usher for

25 his assistance? I would like the Criminal Code of the Republic of

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1 Bosnia-Herzegovina to be distributed, please, with a special reference to

2 Article 213 of the Criminal Code, where it is stipulated that the

3 possession of automatic weapons constitutes a criminal offence. There is

4 a sufficient number of copies for the witness, for the Prosecution, and

5 for the Trial Chamber.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, you have quoted the particular article

7 already. The first question I want to know is: Is that the current law

8 or was it the one in existence before the war? Before the question is

9 answered.

10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] That law existed before the war.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: And the article you cited is the Article 213.

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: So what you want the witness to answer is whether or

14 not that was the law then?

15 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, and an article that was in

16 force.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sure the witness can answer that.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This article of the Criminal

19 Code was in force.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the Prosecution?

21 MR. DI FAZIO: I've never seen this before. Do we have a copy?

22 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought you had copies distributed. Not yet?

23 MR. DI FAZIO: I would just like to know what's going on. Thank

24 you.

25 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Pisarevic, can you mark the copy?

1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I would kindly ask the

2 Registrar to assign a number to it.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: I still see the Prosecution counsel on his feet.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Only for this reason, if Your Honour pleases, I've

5 received an English translation. I wonder if copies of the --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: B/C/S.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: -- B/C/S version as well --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Are there copies of the B/C/S, counsel, for --

9 because this is -- it's incomplete with only the translation.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: I could possibly solve the problem if I could just

11 approach the witness. I see he's got some document in front of him, which

12 I suspect is the full copy of the B/C/S. If I can do that temporarily, I

13 will be able to satisfy myself that that's it.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can do that.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for one

16 moment, please?

17 [Prosecution counsel confer]

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the two marked, the B/C/S and the

20 English translation, please?

21 THE REGISTRAR: This document shall be marked for identification

22 purposes as D1/4(ID) and the B/C/S version shall be marked for

23 identification purposes as D1/4 ter (ID).

24 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sorry, let me ask counsel: Do you want it

25 produced?

1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection?

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Not at this stage -- I should say at this stage, I

4 do have an objection to its production. I've not seen it before. I want

5 an opportunity to assess its authenticity. We've been assisted by that to

6 a certain extent by getting I think they are called certain coded numbers,

7 but I can let the Chamber know of my final position once we've had an

8 opportunity to investigate --

9 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. We will retain the numbers as they are,

10 then.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: -- the background of the document. Thank you.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: So counsel can proceed with his questions.

13 MR. PISAREVIC:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lukac, after having looked at the Criminal

15 Code of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, is it correct that possession

16 of automatic weapons by citizens constitutes a criminal offence, according

17 to Article 213 of the mentioned law?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Are you aware of the fact that on the 9th of May 1991, the

20 presidency of the SFRY passed an order aimed at disbanding all armed

21 formations that are not within the Unified Armed Forces of the SFRY or the

22 organs of the Ministry of the Interior, and whose organisation is not

23 based on federal regulations?

24 A. I'm not aware of that.

25 Q. Can we agree that the public security station in Samac did not act

1 in accordance with this decision of the presidency of the SFRY?

2 A. I cannot agree with that, because I am not aware of this decision

3 of the presidency.

4 Q. Was your chief familiar with that, the chief of police?

5 A. I don't know that.

6 Q. Did you get any assignments to carry out this obligation?

7 A. Within the crime-prevention police, I did not get any tasks

8 related to that, nor am I aware of this situation at all.

9 Q. Mr. Lukac, let's move on to another subject now, that you

10 testified about. It has to do with the armed forces of the SFRY, their

11 position, according to the constitution and law. Do you agree that the

12 question of the armed forces, national defence, was at that time regulated

13 by the SFRY constitution, the constitution of the Republic of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Law on National Defence, and the statutes of the

15 municipalities?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher kindly help me. I

18 would like the following documents to be distributed, documents that we

19 have prepared, and could the registrar please assign identification

20 numbers to them: The Constitution of the SFRY and its provisions, and the

21 Constitution of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the Law.

22 All of this we did not manage to have translated, but we take it

23 upon ourselves to get this done as soon as possible.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: All the three are what year?

25 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] The Constitution is from 1974.

1 That is the Constitution of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

2 Then the Constitution of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina is

3 also from 1974, and the Law on National Defence is from 1994, including

4 amendments from 1992.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Now, all the --

6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] This was the Constitution that was

7 in force in the period 1991/1992, so is the law.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: As you say, you haven't got the English

9 translations.

10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] We don't right now, but we do take

11 it upon ourselves to get this done as soon as possible.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: The problem with this type of situation is that the

13 Trial Chamber cannot follow the questions and the answers because the

14 Trial Chamber cannot read B/C/S. So it's difficult to control the

15 proceedings.

16 Maybe you can defer these questions pertaining to these laws, or

17 you can frame your questions as you understood the law and put it to the

18 witness. Maybe that would be easier, so that we don't have to deal with

19 these when we can't follow the proceedings.

20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understand the

21 problem. However, my idea was to read certain legal provisions which

22 would be interpreted by the interpreters in the courtroom. So I thought

23 that in this way, the Trial Chamber could follow the questions that will

24 stem from that.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: If that is the way that you're going to do it, then

1 that's fine.

2 The Prosecution.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm not trying to prevent my learned friend from

4 following this line of cross-examination, but I just want to be certain

5 that we -- at a later stage we will be able to follow what is going on.

6 I've got three documents. I don't know which is which. I don't

7 know which -- what exhibit numbers relate to them. And it seems to me

8 that if any particular portions of these documents are to be now put to

9 the witness, then we should be able to clearly identify which portion of

10 which document, and that should be translated first so that everyone knows

11 what the whole thing says.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That is the problem.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. And subsequently, full translations can be

14 provided by the Defence. But I'd like to know what's what, and I'd

15 like -- if Mr. Pisarevic takes the witness to a certain portion of the

16 document, then I'd like that portion to be very clearly identified.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. In fact, I would suggest that we don't even

18 number these documents. He will cite which law he's dealing with and then

19 ask the question. The interpreters will follow and then the witness will

20 answer, and he'll do the same with the others. Then at a later stage,

21 when he's ready with the English translations, then he will be able to

22 come back to the documentation if he still feels they ought to be

23 produced.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Does that mean that they're not even going to

25 be marked for identification at this stage?

1 JUDGE MUMBA: No. They will not be marked.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

3 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Pisarevic, perhaps you may want to put the gist

4 of your question first to him in respect of the particular clause or

5 provision in these laws and then wait for his answer, and if you're

6 satisfied with his answer, then you need not go further. If not, then you

7 can quote the law.

8 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. I will

9 try to follow these instructions and to cover the documents with the

10 witness in that way.

11 The first document is the Constitution of the Socialist Federal

12 Republic of Yugoslavia. I would like to direct the witness to look at

13 Chapter 6. The sub-heading is "National Defence," and the article in

14 question is 237, where it states -- in fact, I would like him to read that

15 article.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: You see, counsel, this is the very problem we are

17 trying to avoid, because we cannot follow. You know the way law is

18 interpreted and understood by various people, lawyers, laypeople. It is

19 not an easy document to deal with in the manner you are proposing.

20 Judge Singh did give you a better option. You get the gist of

21 what the law says and then you ask the witness. Because if you start

22 asking the witness to quote from the document, and as we said, we cannot

23 even mark them because the Trial Chamber does not have English

24 translations -- it is a problem, because you are using documents that we

25 are not accepting at this stage. So simply get the gist of what the law

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1 says, according to you, and put it to the witness, and avoid asking him to

2 read anything.

3 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam President.

4 Q. Do you agree with me that Article 237 provides that it is a

5 fundamental and inalienable right of the duty of the people and ethnic

6 minorities of Yugoslavia, of its working people and citizens, to uphold

7 and protect the independence, territorial integrity, and the political

8 system of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia as stipulated by

9 the SFRY Constitution?

10 A. I do not understand your question.

11 Q. Do you agree with me that this provision 237 does indeed state

12 what I have just stated?

13 A. You have just read verbatim what was stipulated in that article.

14 Q. Is that what the Constitution of the Socialist Federal Republic of

15 Yugoslavia did state?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. The Article 240 of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,

18 it is stipulated that the armed forces of the Socialist Federal Republic

19 of Yugoslavia shall protect the independence, sovereignty, territorial

20 integrity, and the political system of the Socialist Federal Republic of

21 Yugoslavia as stipulated by this constitution?

22 And in the second paragraph of this article, it is stated that the

23 armed forces make up a unified whole and consist of the Yugoslav People's

24 Army as a joint force of all peoples and minorities, and of the

25 Territorial Defence as the broadest form of organised, armed resistance of

1 the people.

2 And paragraph 3 of the article states that any citizen who takes

3 part in resistance with arms, or in any other way, is a member of the

4 armed forces of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

5 Do you agree with me that this is how the issue of armed forces of

6 the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia is regulated in this way in

7 the constitution of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

8 A. What you just read out does indeed say in the Article 240.

9 Q. Will you now just read -- that is, can you confirm that Article

10 241 of the constitution, it is stipulated that the military duty of

11 citizens is universal? Were you aware that the constitution stipulated

12 that the military duty was universal?

13 A. That is what is stated in Article 241.

14 Q. Can you now please look at the constitution of the Socialist

15 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

16 MR. DI FAZIO: We are running into the same problem, if Your

17 Honour please.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think counsel is still doing what has been

19 prohibited, referring -- asking the witness to refer to the documents.

20 Please get the gist, put it to the witness, and let him answer.

21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

22 Q. Do you agree that the issue of the national defence was regulated

23 and provided for by the constitution of the Socialist Republic of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

25 A. I agree, but in the period before the changes and multi-party

1 elections that took place in the territory of former Yugoslavia, because

2 all these provisions refer to the Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia,

3 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and so on.

4 Q. My question was only whether the issue of defence was regulated by

5 the Socialist -- by the constitution of the Socialist Republic of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and was this constitution in force until 17 April

7 1992?

8 A. These issues were regulated by the constitutions of 1974. Whether

9 they were in force at the time that you're referring to, I do not know

10 because I'm not an expert for constitutional law.

11 Q. Mr. Lukac, I know that you're not an expert in constitutional law,

12 and neither am I, but you did speak about the constitutional status and

13 gave your conclusions on what was constitutional, what was illegal, and

14 you talked about the all-people defence, and these are all constitutional

15 categories.

16 A. I spoke about the national defence within the context of issues

17 that I knew about, and the judgements that I stated in my evidence are

18 true.

19 Q. Very well. Can we agree, then, that the Territorial Defence in

20 the republics and in autonomous provinces was under the authority of the

21 republics and autonomous provinces in respect of organisation and command

22 and control?

23 A. Yes. I do agree that the Territorial Defence was completely

24 within the competence of the republics.

25 Q. Can we then agree that the supreme commander, as the highest body,

1 was the presidency of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

2 A. The commander-in-chief of the Territorial Defence were the

3 presidencies of the republics rather than the presidency of the Federal

4 Republic of Yugoslavia.

5 Q. But can we agree that the presidency of the SFRY was the

6 commander-in-chief of the armed forces of the SFRY?

7 A. Pursuant to the constitution of 1974, yes.

8 Q. Can we agree that the presidency of SFRY appointed commanders of

9 staffs in -- of the Territorial Defence in republics and autonomous

10 provinces after having received nominations for those positions from the

11 assemblies of those republics?

12 A. I don't know that procedure, but it is possible.

13 Q. Do you agree with me that command and control of the armed forces

14 is based on the principle of unified command, single command structure,

15 and implementation of decisions, orders and commands of the superior

16 officer or command?

17 A. Generally speaking, yes.

18 Q. Are you aware of the fact that JNA units and units of the

19 Territorial Defence went there involved in carrying out of joint tasks

20 were subordinated to the commanding officer who is in charge of that

21 task?

22 A. Yes. That stands to reason.

23 Q. Do you agree that the armed forces of the Socialist Federal

24 Republic of Yugoslavia were a unified force which include the units of JNA

25 and the Territorial Defence?

1 A. If this -- if we're talking about 1974, that would be normal.

2 Q. So do you agree with this?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Do you agree with me and are you aware of the fact that a

5 mobilisation of armed forces was ordered by the Presidency of the

6 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia both in peace and wartimes?

7 A. I do not agree for the same reason as in the previous question.

8 Q. Do you agree with me that the commander of the municipal staff of

9 the TO is nominated by the chief of the Republican TO after the nomination

10 by the municipal assembly?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You mentioned that you attended a meeting on 13 April 1992 in

13 Grebince, where the Territorial Defence for Samac was established, and the

14 commander and the chief of staff were appointed.

15 A. Nominated.

16 Q. To whom were they nominated?

17 A. They were nominated to the president of the municipal assembly of

18 Bosanski Samac.

19 Q. Can you give us the full name of the person who was in the

20 position of the municipal assembly?

21 A. The president was Mr. Mato Nujic.

22 Q. Are you aware of the fact that a nomination for the TO commander

23 had to be given by the entire assembly in its session rather than the

24 president of the assembly?

25 A. I'm aware of the fact that at that time there was already a

1 Serbian municipality government in the territory of Samac.

2 Q. Were you aware that -- that the municipal assembly of Samac had

3 ceased to exist at that time?

4 A. I am not aware of that, but it makes no sense that there are two

5 assemblies functioning at the same time in the territory of one and the

6 same municipality.

7 Q. Mr. Lukac, I did not ask you what makes sense and what did not

8 make sense. My question to you was simply whether you were aware that a

9 decision had been made that the municipal assembly of Bosanski Samac had

10 ceased to exist, that it was no longer in existence.

11 A. I'm not aware of any such decision ever having been adopted.

12 Q. Can we then agree that the municipal assembly of Samac at that

13 time did exist and did function?

14 A. It did exist, and whether it functioned or not, I don't know.

15 Q. In this meeting in Grebince on 13 April 1992, were representatives

16 of the Serbian ethnic group and the Serbian SDS present?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Can you confirm the fact that without the presence of

19 representatives of the Serbian people, representatives of the Serbian

20 Democratic Party, and representative delegates of municipal assembly of

21 Samac, that is that without their presence, a proposal was adopted to the

22 republican staff of the TO of Bosnia and Herzegovina which proposed that

23 Marko ^ Bozanovic be nominated to the position of commander - and he is an

24 ethnic Croat - and it nominated the -- it nominated Alija Fitozovic as the

25 chief of the Territorial Defence of Bosanski Samac?

1 A. Yes, because no other possibility existed to do that.

2 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Pisarevic, please excuse me but perhaps you

3 might want to pose these questions to witnesses who are more knowledgeable

4 about these matters, like Tihic, who will come later. I think these

5 matters were not raised by this witness in his examination-in-chief.

6 Tihic would be the proper witness.

7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree, but we were not in a

8 position to examine Mr. Tihic. Had we had that opportunity, some of the

9 questions asked of Mr. Lukac would not be posed.

10 JUDGE SINGH: You'll get every chance to do that.

11 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I hope so. I believe so. Thank

12 you.

13 Q. Mr. Lukac, do you know that the presidency of the Socialist

14 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia on 29 April 1990 adopted a decision on

15 taking over the weapons of the Territorial Defence, and the reason given

16 was to avoid its misuse and to better protect the people?

17 A. I'm not aware of the presidency having adopted such a decision but

18 I am aware that the JNA did take over those weapons.

19 Q. Very well. In your statement, you mentioned that the 17th

20 Tactical Group was a unit that was part of the JNA; is that correct?

21 A. I wouldn't agree that it was a unit.

22 Q. But was it part of the JNA?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can we agree that the 17th Tactical Group, by order, had to form

25 four detachments and that they were all formed from the mobilised local

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1 population?

2 A. I do agree that there were four detachments, but whether they were

3 all composed of the local population, that I don't know.

4 Q. Do you agree that the 4th Detachment consisted of the local

5 population of the local commune of Bosanski Samac?

6 A. I never saw a list of the members of the 4th Detachment, but most

7 of the members were from Bosanski Samac.

8 Q. Can we agree that the 4th Detachment was within the Yugoslav

9 People's Army?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Can we say that the 4th Detachment was established in

12 public, in the month of January, and that it did not try to conceal its

13 existence?

14 A. We cannot say all of that.

15 Q. Are you aware of the fact that a few public meetings were held

16 with citizens who responded to the mobilisation call-up and acceded to the

17 4th Detachment?

18 A. I don't know that. I did not attend such meetings.

19 Q. Did you have any information to that effect, that such meetings

20 were being held?

21 A. I just remember that at the Spom and Dom there was a meeting. Who

22 was there and what for, I don't know.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel for the Prosecution?

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Your Honour, I'm not objecting, but I

25 suggest that matters would be clarified if we knew what year this was

1 occurring and -- I know it's January but I'm interested in this date and

2 I'd like to know which year. Perhaps Mr. Pisarevic could assist us and

3 clarify that.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I am sure he has understood.

5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I understand.

6 Q. Was the 4th Detachment established in the month of January 1992?

7 A. I assume it was. Its establishment was secret so I can't say for

8 sure.

9 Q. Do you agree with me that the 4th Detachment consisted of Serbs,

10 Muslims, Croats and members of other national and ethnic groups?

11 A. In part.

12 Q. Thank you. You mentioned the arms of the members of the 4th

13 Detachment. Can we agree that this was done publicly?

14 A. We cannot. It was done secretly.

15 Q. Was it done in accordance with the rules of service in the

16 Yugoslav People's Army?

17 A. I don't know that.

18 Q. Thank you. Do you know that the command of the 17th Tactical

19 Group, or rather the commander, to be more precise, and the commander of

20 the 4th Detachment of the Yugoslav People's Army, during the month of

21 January, February, explained through the media and in other ways the role

22 of the JNA, of the 17th Tactical Group, and of the 4th Detachment?

23 A. I don't know that the members of the 4th Detachment did that in

24 January. In February, it was Mr. Antic and Mr. Zaric who spoke on the

25 local radio station about the existence and activity of the

1 4th Detachment, and I know about that.

2 Q. Thank you. When they spoke, did they point out, as the basic role

3 of the Yugoslav People's Army, its role in preventing inter-ethnic

4 conflict, the protection of the northern border of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and

5 preventing the spill-over of war from Croatia to Bosnia-Herzegovina?

6 A. I did not listen to this broadcast, but what I heard by way of a

7 comment regarding this programme was that Mr. Zaric said that the reason

8 for establishing the 4th Detachment was the prevention of inter-ethnic

9 conflict in the town of Bosanski Samac.

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Lukac. Do you agree and can you confirm that the

11 command of the 4th Detachment had its seat in the Samac textile industry,

12 abbreviated SIT, at the Mladost building, in the building where the

13 Mladost company was?

14 A. During the later stage of its existence, yes.

15 Q. Can you remember and can you say or, rather, can you confirm that

16 in front of the command of the barracks there was a flag of the Socialist

17 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and also a flag of the Socialist Republic

18 of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19 A. I cannot. I never saw that.

20 Q. Did you receive this information as chief of police?

21 A. No, I did not.

22 Q. Thank you. Can we agree that the commander of the 4th Detachment

23 of the Yugoslav People's Army was Radovan Antic, Reserve Captain, Reserve

24 Captain First Class?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Can we agree that the deputy commander of the 4th Detachment of

2 the Yugoslav People's Army was Jovo Savic, Reserve Captain First Class?

3 A. I don't know that.

4 Q. Can you confirm the fact that the assistant commander of the

5 4th Detachment of the Yugoslav People's Army for -- for Pozadina was

6 Mr. Miroslav Tadic?

7 A. I don't know that.

8 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was just told that

9 there is a misinterpretation in the transcript. I'm referring to line --

10 oh, is it all right? Oh, very well. Thank you. Oh, I do apologise. I

11 really apologise.

12 Q. Can you agree with the fact that the assistant commander for

13 intelligence and security affairs, morale and information was Simo Zaric,

14 Warrant Officer First Class, Reserve?

15 A. I know that he was assistant commander for intelligence affairs.

16 I don't know about the rest that you mentioned.

17 Q. Very well. Thank you. Are you aware of the fact that the

18 operations officer, which is to say the chief of operations, was Mehmed

19 Vukovic, a Bosnian Muslim?

20 A. I don't know about that, but I know that all the persons you

21 mentioned beforehand are ethnic Serbs.

22 Q. Thank you. Among these persons, is there a single person about

23 whom you know that such a person had a criminal record?

24 A. Except for Zaric, no one.

25 Q. Can you say what are these criminal offences and before which

1 courts was Mr. Zaric brought?

2 A. It is not to say that somebody committed crimes only if he was

3 brought before a court of law.

4 Q. Could you please tell me whether you have received any information

5 to the effect that against Mr. Zaric any kind of final legal judgement was

6 passed pronouncing him guilty of a crime stipulated in the laws of the

7 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia or the Criminal Code of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

9 A. I have no such information.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 You mentioned that among the members of the 4th Detachment, there

12 was a certain number of persons of Muslim and Croat ethnicity, and that

13 these persons had criminal records and that they came from mixed

14 marriages.

15 A. Correct, but it's not that all of them had criminal records. Some

16 of them did.

17 Q. Petar Karlovic, a Croat, was he a member of the 4th Detachment,

18 and did he have a criminal record?

19 A. According to my information, he was a member of the 4th

20 Detachment. He is from the reserve force of the state security service

21 and he's married to a Serb woman.

22 Q. Mr. Lukac, I did not ask you who his wife was. I asked you

23 whether the man is a criminal or not.

24 A. I have no information to the effect that he is a criminal.

25 Q. Thank you. Slobodan Kalimovic, a member of the 4th Detachment, an

1 ethnic Croat, did he have a criminal record?

2 A. I do not know that person.

3 Q. Blaz Esegovic, a member of the 4th Detachment, did he have a

4 criminal record?

5 A. I'm not aware of that.

6 Q. Brandit Tadija, an ethnic Croat, a member of the 4th Detachment,

7 did he have a criminal record?

8 A. I'm not aware of that.

9 Q. Member of the 4th Detachment, Nenad Calic, an ethnic Croat, did he

10 have a criminal record?

11 A. I do not know that person at all.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor?

14 MR. DI FAZIO: I do not object to the line of questioning. I'm

15 just concerned that the answers aren't very clear because of the way the

16 questions are formed. I don't know if Mr. Lukac is agreeing that the

17 person mentioned is in fact a member of the 4th Detachment or whether he's

18 agreeing that the person doesn't have a criminal record. I don't want to

19 stop Mr. Pisarevic, but I think we need to be certain, clear, about what

20 the answer means. Does he mean that, A, he's a member of the 4th

21 Detachment, and, B, that he does not have a criminal record or just that

22 he doesn't have a criminal record. I don't know and I think that should

23 be clarified.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think the witness can clarify that. I am

25 sure that he has understood the Prosecutor.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have understood, and my answer is

2 negative for the persons mentioned by the lawyer, in terms of whether

3 these persons had a criminal record, that is.

4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. Can I

5 proceed now?

6 JUDGE MUMBA: What about membership of the 4th Detachment?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not know who all the members

8 of the 4th Detachment were, but the gentleman, the lawyer, is saying that

9 they were all members of the 4th Detachment. If he says so, there is no

10 reason for me to doubt that.

11 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, it is correct

12 that I have been saying that these are citizens of Croat ethnicity who,

13 among others, were members of the 4th Detachment. I am asking Mr. Lukac

14 once again.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, maybe you should ask him.

16 MR. PISAREVIC:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Darko Dumusic Music [phoen], as a member of the

18 4th Detachment of the Yugoslav People's Army, an ethnic Croat, did he have

19 a criminal record?

20 A. No. He did not, but he is off-spring from a mixed marriage.

21 Q. Thank you. As a member of the 4th Detachment, Nijaz Huskic

22 [phoen], an ethnic Muslim, did he have a criminal record?

23 A. No.

24 Q. As a member of the 4th Detachment, Fikret Selkovic a Bosnian

25 Muslim, did he have a criminal record?

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1 A. No, but he is a reserve member of the state security service.

2 Q. As a member of the 4th Detachment, Dzemal Jesanica, a Bosnian

3 Muslim, did he have a criminal record?

4 A. Yes. He was convicted of crimes.

5 Q. I am not going to go into further questions, because I'd have to

6 ask you about 200 more persons.

7 A. Thank you.

8 Q. Can we agree that the members of the 4th Detachment of the

9 Yugoslav People's Army did not carry weapons in town and in public

10 places?

11 A. They did carry weapons in town, but not publicly.

12 Q. Did you ever, when carrying out any kind of checkup, did you find

13 any weapons on members of the 4th Detachment?

14 A. Incidents involving shooting clearly show that they carried

15 weapons. I am talking about the conflict with the members of the police.

16 Q. Mr. Lukac, I asked you quite clearly, did you and your service, or

17 rather the members of the public security station, during 1992, ever find

18 any members of the 4th Detachment to have automatic weapons?

19 A. I don't know. That was not within my province of work.

20 Q. Mr. Lukac, the reserve police force is the next subject on which I

21 would like to put a few questions to you. You mentioned in your statement

22 that the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, on the 20th of

23 September, 1991, passed a decision on calling up the reserve police

24 force. Do you agree with me that the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina

25 passed this decision with all the members of the Presidency present, that

1 is to say, with the representatives of the Serb, Croat, and Muslim

2 peoples, and with the presence of Mr. Ejub Ganic?

3 A. I don't know who was present at the session of the Presidency of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina when this decision was passed.

5 Q. Do you agree with me that calling up the reserve police force or,

6 rather, mobilising them was carried out by the Ministry of National

7 Defence or, rather, the Secretariat of Defence of the municipality of

8 Bosanski Samac at the request of the public security station?

9 A. I really cannot recall the procedures, but we got instructions to

10 that effect from the Republican Ministry of the Interior.

11 Q. And who sent these requests?

12 A. I really cannot remember.

13 Q. Thank you. Can you confirm that reserve policemen at the

14 municipal public security station in Bosanski Samac were proposed by

15 political parties and that they primarily sent their own members there

16 too?

17 A. I could not fully agree with that assessment.

18 Q. Do you have any information or knowledge to that effect, that this

19 actually happened?

20 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Pisarevic, I think your question is so general

21 it's not really comprehensible. Can you rephrase it? Put it more

22 specifically. There are a number of questions in it as well. Be more

23 specific. I see particularly "political parties." I don't quite

24 understand what you mean by that.

25 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I understand. Thank you for your

1 guidelines.

2 Q. The Party of Democratic Action from Bosanski Samac, did it appoint

3 and send its own members to the reserve police force at the public

4 security station in Samac?

5 A. We had four reserve police stations in the territory of the

6 municipality of Samac, and they all had the same status. The station in

7 Bosanski Samac is one of the four.

8 As for proposals, who would be on the reserve police force, this

9 was carried out by the local communes who sent these people. And the

10 reason for this was that as far as back as July 1991, the JNA took all

11 military records from the secretariat for national defence in Bosanski

12 Samac.

13 Q. Mr. Lukac, please. Do you know whether the SDA sent members of

14 its party to be on the reserve police force?

15 A. If I say that this was done by the local communes, it is only

16 natural that indirectly, political parties took part in this, those that

17 participated in these local communes.

18 Q. Can you answer me? Can you answer my question? The SDA -- did

19 the SDA send its own candidates, members to the public security -- to the

20 reserve police station in Bosanski Samac?

21 A. Whether they sent them, I don't know, because that was not within

22 my province of work.

23 Q. Does that mean that you did not have information?

24 A. That means that I was not involved in that subject matter.

25 Q. Very well. Thank you.

1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, should I continue

2 with my questions?

3 JUDGE MUMBA: We're almost reaching 13 hours. I think we will

4 stop there and continue at the next session.

5 Yes, the Prosecution.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. May I raise just two brief matters with

7 the Chamber? Firstly, I wonder if Defence counsel could do their best and

8 give us an indication of when they think their cross-examination of

9 Mr. Lukac will be finished. Obviously he wants to know. And secondly,

10 it's important from the Prosecution's point of view, for staggering

11 witnesses. We've got a witness who is next and he's here, and we'd like

12 to know if he's not going to be called until next Thursday or something.

13 It would be good to know. So if they could give us an idea of that --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: An indication, yes.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: -- of that issue, and I'd ask that the Chamber call

16 upon them to indicate shortly if they can.

17 The second issue that I want to raise is this: During the course

18 of the first witness's evidence, Mr. Donia, the issue of the admission of

19 the Variant A and B document became a bone of contention. My colleague

20 Ms. Reidy is going to address the Chamber on the admission of that

21 document, and for her sake it would be a good if we can get an idea of

22 when such submissions could be made.

23 Might I respectfully suggest that we do so in between -- once the

24 cross-examination of Mr. Lukac has been finished and before the calling of

25 the next witness. That's just a suggestion, but I'm concerned that we

1 deal with it soon --

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Early enough.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: -- sooner rather than later and get the matter

4 finalised. So I just wonder if we could deal with those two brief

5 issues. Thank you.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution would like to know from the

7 Defence counsel how long each one thinks they will take in

8 cross-examination. This is necessary for purposes of staggering or

9 bringing in their witnesses, since we still have the problem of only

10 sitting mornings only, and it is also important for the witness to know

11 how long he will have to stay.

12 Maybe I should begin with Mr. Pisarevic himself. How long does he

13 think he'll still take?

14 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] A maximum of 30 additional

15 minutes.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. The next -- any other counsel who will

17 cross-examine? Can we have --

18 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] Your Honour, like all Defence teams, we

19 have reached agreement amongst ourselves. After Pisarevic, I will be

20 cross-examining on behalf of the Defence of Miroslav Tadic. I have

21 planned 30 minutes of cross-examination, but I cannot guarantee that it is

22 so. Perhaps I shall look into the matter a bit more over the weekend, but

23 I believe that I will complete my cross-examination within 30 or 40

24 minutes.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, 45 minutes to one hour of cross.

1 Thank you.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Mr. Pantelic.

3 MR. PANTELIC: That would be the same position with the Defence

4 for Mr. Blagoje Simic. Thank you.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I'm sure that since all of them are

6 cross-examining, we shall try to avoid repeating similar questions on

7 similar issues with each witness. And for the discussion on the

8 documents, we'll do it after finalising with this witness, after releasing

9 him.

10 So the proceedings will continue on Monday, 0930 hours.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.07 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Monday, the 1st day

13 of October, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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