1 Monday, 1 October 2001

2 [The accused entered court]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [Open session]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Will the Registrar please call the

7 case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav

10 Tadic and Simo Zaric.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: This morning we are continuing with

12 cross-examination by Mr. Pisarevic.

13 WITNESS: DRAGAN LUKAC [Resumed]

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, good

16 morning Prosecutor.

17 Cross-examination by Mr. Pisarevic: [Continued]

18 Q. Good morning, Mr. Lukac. May I just briefly remind you that we

19 are still dealing with a group of questions related to the reserve police

20 force in the Bosanski Samac police station. You have answered the last

21 question I had by saying that you were not in charge of manning the

22 reserve force. I agree with you on that. However, can we also agree that

23 starting from the 11th of April 1992, this did come under your authority,

24 when you became acting head of the police station in Bosanski Samac?

25 A. That is correct.

1 Q. Can we agree that when you were the acting chief of police in

2 Samac, that the members of the reserve force were exclusively ethnic

3 Croats and Muslims?

4 A. As regards the reserve force, that is correct.

5 Q. Yes. The question only had to do with the reserve force. Thank

6 you.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Please, counsel, do wait for the witness to finish

8 his answer before you start the next question.

9 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Q. Do you agree that the members of the reserve force of the police

11 station in Bosanski Samac did not meet the professional criteria for

12 carrying out these duties?

13 A. I would not agree with that.

14 Q. What about the situation amongst the reserve force in the police

15 station and the overall relations in the police station? Did this lead to

16 a feeling of insecurity and a lack of confidence in the police force among

17 the citizens of Bosanski Samac?

18 A. I do not agree with that.

19 Q. Are you aware of the fact that on the bridge by the Sava River by

20 Bosanski Samac, there were mines, that the bridge had been mined?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. Can we agree that these mines on the bridge on the Sava River were

23 placed by the army and police of the Republic of Croatia?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. Can we confirm the fact that on the side belonging to the Republic

1 of Croatia, the bridge was manned by members of the police of the Republic

2 of Croatia and the army?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. On the Bosnian-Herzegovinian side, was the bridge guarded by the

5 police of the Bosanski Samac police station?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Does that mean that the JNA or, rather, the Yugoslav People's Army

8 did not guard the bridge on the Sava River by Bosanski Samac?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. Do you know the name of Ivo Susak, nicknamed Ivsa?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. Do you know the name of Ante Tufekovic, nicknamed Fubi?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you know that these persons illegally smuggled oil and weapons

15 and crude oil from the Republic of Croatia to Bosnia-Herzegovina across

16 the bridge on the Sava River by Bosanski Samac?

17 A. I'm not aware of that but it is possible.

18 Q. Are these persons ethnic Croats?

19 A. Yes, both of them, but both are also criminals with criminal

20 records.

21 Q. Did the police of the police station in Samac have any checkpoints

22 of their own on the road between Samac and Modrica?

23 A. From time to time, in order to check on the traffic.

24 Q. Please answer my question. Were there any checkpoints there? Did

25 it have any checkpoints there, regular checkpoints?

1 A. If you are referring to permanent checkpoints, then no.

2 Q. In your statement, you mention checkpoints that were placed by the

3 Yugoslav People's Army in Tisina and Crkvina. You also showed these

4 checkpoints on the map. Can we agree that these checkpoints are not on

5 the territory of the local commune of the town of Samac?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you agree that these checkpoints in Tisina and Crkvina were not

8 within the zone of responsibility of the 4th Detachment of the Yugoslav

9 People's Army?

10 A. I don't know about that. I don't know what the zone of

11 responsibility of the 4th Detachment was.

12 Q. Very well. Thank you. Since you are a policeman and, according

13 to your own statement, you had quite a bit information, did you have any

14 information to the effect that the representatives of the SDA and the HDZ

15 of the municipality of Samac were meeting in secret in the Croat villages

16 in the vicinity of the town of Samac?

17 A. I did not have any such information, especially not about secret

18 meetings, because these are legal political parties that took part in the

19 formation of the new government.

20 Q. Do you know that on the 19th of March, 1992, a meeting was held of

21 the representatives of the SDA, the HDZ, and the representatives of the

22 army of the Republic of Croatia in the village of Prud near Samac?

23 A. I'm not aware of that.

24 Q. Does that mean that you don't know that on the 19th of March,

25 1992, a Crisis Staff was established of the SDA and the HDZ for Bosanski

1 Samac?

2 A. I know that some kind of a Crisis Staff existed, but I don't know

3 anything about the contents of its work or about the province of its

4 work.

5 Q. And do you know that the -- that Filip Evic, a Croat, president of

6 the municipal committee of the HDZ, was elected president of this Crisis

7 Staff?

8 A. I'm not aware of that, but such a possibility does exist.

9 Q. Do you know that Sulejman Tihic, a Muslim, president of the

10 municipal committee of the SDA in Samac, was elected vice-president of the

11 Crisis Staff?

12 A. That is quite possible.

13 Q. Do you know that at that meeting, the 104th Brigade of Samac was

14 created of Bosanska Posavina?

15 A. Can you just repeat the date?

16 Q. The date is the 19th of March, 1992.

17 A. I'm not aware of that, and it's illogical.

18 Q. Are you also aware of the fact that the Croat community of

19 Bosanska Posavina was established on the 12th of November 1991 in Bosanski

20 Brod and that it consists of eight municipalities?

21 A. I first hear of this from you.

22 Q. Are you aware of the fact that one meeting of the Crisis Staff of

23 the HDZ, SDA of the municipality of Samac was held in the village of

24 Grebanice where Croats live?

25 A. I'm not aware of that.

1 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor?

3 MR. DI FAZIO: I think there is a problem with this line of

4 questioning. As far as I'm aware, the witness simply doesn't know of this

5 meeting or this event. Now, if it's Mr. Pisarevic's case that he does

6 know about the meeting and he's lying, fine, that then can be put to him,

7 but what benefit is to be obtained by cross-examining him on the contents

8 after meeting with him saying, "Well, I just don't know about the event"?

9 You see, he says -- he asks, "Do you know of the meeting?" And Mr. Lukac

10 asks, "Can you repeat the date?" He says, "The 19th of March." He says,

11 "I'm not aware of that," and then, "It's not a logical" -- and then he

12 puts another question. He says, "I first hear of this from you." So he's

13 saying, "I don't know about the meeting," and we are getting more and more

14 questions on that meeting. He just can't answer those. Whether or not

15 that's true is another issue, and Mr. Pisarevic is entitled to

16 cross-examine on that but to keep saying, "Well, this happened at the

17 meeting, do you know about that?" What can the witness do except say, "I

18 don't know about the meeting"?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought the second meeting was another date, was

20 another one. Let the counsel clear that. You have understood the line of

21 objection. If it was this one and the same meeting and you're asking

22 about the events that happened during that meeting, he wouldn't know

23 because he doesn't know -- he did not know about the meeting. Or if the

24 second question related to another meeting, then please clarify that with

25 the witness.

1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] The witness said that he did not

2 know about the date when the meeting was held, but he did say that he knew

3 that the Crisis Staff was established. I allow for the possibility that

4 he doesn't know about certain things.

5 As for this other meeting, if he doesn't know about it, then I'm

6 not going to ask him anything further with regard to it.

7 May I proceed?

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you. You can proceed.

9 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the SDA established a town command

11 in the town of Bosanski Samac?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You said that there was an organisational body of the local

14 commune of Bosanski Samac that was active and you also participated in its

15 activities. Can we agree that this body had no authority whatsoever?

16 A. In terms of making any kind of decisions, no.

17 Q. Do you agree that this body was not any kind of authority in the

18 local commune of Bosanski Samac?

19 A. I agree.

20 Q. Do you agree that conclusions from these meetings were not binding

21 on anyone?

22 A. I agree.

23 Q. Can you confirm the fact that these meetings most often ended

24 without any kind of resolutions or decisions being passed?

25 A. I agree.

1 Q. Do you agree that this meeting on the 16th of April, 1992 also

2 ended without any resolutions?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. Can you recall and confirm the fact that Simo Zaric then said, "I

5 am not authorised to attach the 4th Detachment to the Territorial Defence,

6 because the detachment is a unit of the Yugoslav People's Army"?

7 A. I cannot remember that exactly, but he did say something to that

8 effect.

9 Q. When leaving your apartment on the 17th of April, 1992, did you

10 have any contact with members of the 4th Detachment of the Yugoslav

11 People's Army until 10.00?

12 A. No, except for telephone conversation that I had with Safet

13 Hadzialijagic, president of the local commune. If he was a member of the

14 4th Detachment, then I did have contact in that way.

15 Q. Thank you. Mr. Vladimir Sarkanovic took a statement from you in

16 the building of the MUP in Bosanski Samac. Did he force to you make this

17 statement?

18 A. What do you mean "force"?

19 Q. Did he force you, make you give this statement?

20 A. No. He was very fair.

21 Q. Thank you. Did inspector Vladimir Sarkanovic record your

22 statement, everything that you said?

23 A. In view of the state that I was in, I cannot say whether it was

24 complete and whether it was recorded faithfully and whether it was all in

25 there.

1 Q. When you were transferred to Brcko, in addition to Mihajlo

2 Topolovac and the military policemen, did you recognise any other person?

3 A. I cannot recall that. I know that Topolovac read this list.

4 Q. We heard that, thank you. And afterwards, did you hear from

5 anyone who transferred you and the other persons to Brcko, and why?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Can we agree that the conditions of your stay in Brcko were better

8 than in Samac and that you and the others considerably recovered during

9 that stay?

10 A. As for our group, yes.

11 Q. Do you agree that your transfer from Brcko to Bijeljina was caused

12 by the outbreak of armed conflicts in the town of Brcko?

13 A. The armed conflicts started in Brcko, but whether that was the

14 reason why we were transferred, I don't know.

15 Q. Did the prison warden tell you and Mr. Tihic that he was

16 transferring you from Brcko to Bijeljina because of that outbreak?

17 A. I do not recall that, because he did not have the opportunity to

18 address only the two of us. We were together with the others. There was

19 over 20 men there.

20 Q. Can we agree with the assertion that Simo Zaric was a

21 Yugoslav-oriented person?

22 A. I cannot assert that.

23 Q. Are you aware of the fact that Simo Zaric was a person active in

24 the fields of culture and sports in Bosanski Samac?

25 A. It all depends on what you mean by "culture."

1 Q. Do you agree that he was a citizen who enjoyed a good reputation

2 in the town of Samac?

3 A. It depends.

4 Q. Can you confirm the fact that Simo Zaric was a member of the

5 Croatian cultural and arts society Vladimir Nazor in the village of Prud

6 near Bosanski Samac and that he also took part in their performances?

7 A. During a certain period of time before the war, yes, because the

8 village of Prud is a neighbouring village in relation to the village where

9 Mr. Zaric was born.

10 Q. Is the village of Prud populated by ethnic Croats?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you agree that he performed all over Yugoslavia and abroad,

13 wearing a Croat ethnic national costume, at various festivals and

14 performances?

15 A. I don't know about that.

16 Q. Can you say when you returned to the territory of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

18 A. You mean during the war?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. On the 1st of April, 1993.

21 Q. Can you tell me whether you returned to Orasje?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you tell me which duties you carried out in the municipality

24 of Orasje during the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

25 A. In the period from the 1st of April, 1993 until the 2nd of May,

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1 1994, I was head of the division for crime prevention in the police

2 administration in Derventa. And in the period from the 2nd of May, 1994

3 until the end of the war, I was head of the crime prevention police in

4 this same police administration.

5 Q. Mr. Lukac, within the scope of your own authority, did you take

6 any action to investigate the crimes that were committed against the Serb

7 population in the municipality of Orasje?

8 A. I'm not aware of any such crimes.

9 Q. You wrote three books, "Samac the Town Camp," then "From Skica to

10 Den Haag," and "War Crimes in Bosanska Posavina."

11 I asked you at the very outset whether you grew up in the village

12 of Bazik and you answered yes, and now I'm asking you the following: Were

13 there citizens from the village of Bazik who took part on the side of the

14 anti-fascist coalition in the Partizan units during the Second World War?

15 A. I don't know about that. I already said last time that I was born

16 ten years after the end of the Second World War.

17 Q. Mr. Lukac, but you wrote three books and a book entitled "From

18 Skica to Den Haag."

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. In that book, you have precisely dealt with these subjects from

21 the Second World War and its immediate aftermath?

22 A. I dealt with the subject of investigating the lack of rights of

23 the Croat people in the territory of Bosanski Samac in the period -- in

24 the period that actually goes back to as far back as the memory of the

25 witnesses I talked to goes concerning the war.

1 Q. Can we agree then that some were members of the regular Ustasha

2 force of the Independent State of Croatia?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can we agree that the Independent State of Croatia was created as

5 a fascist creation of Germany and Italy?

6 A. I would not agree that it was a fascist creation of Italy and

7 Germany. It was a state of the Croat people formed at that time, and

8 within the Second World War, it appeared as the coalition partner of these

9 two countries that you mentioned.

10 Q. Can we agree then that the Ustashas fought on the side of the

11 fascists?

12 A. If we say that they were coalition partners, then that is derived

13 from that in its own right.

14 Q. Did they or did they not fight on the side of the fascists?

15 A. I'm not a participant in that war, and I don't know who fought on

16 whose side and with what objective in mind.

17 Q. While reading your book "From Skica to Den Haag," I established

18 that Skica actually is Marko Tomusic from Bazik?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. If I understood you correctly, he was the commander in the regular

21 Ustasha army in the Independent State of Croatia.

22 A. He was a commander of such a unit in a small area in that

23 territory.

24 Q. Does this mean that he was the commander of an Ustasha unit on the

25 territory of the Bazik municipality?

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Will you agree with me that World War II ended on the 9th of May

3 1945, with the capitulation of Germany?

4 A. That is a fact that there is nothing to agree about. That's how

5 it is.

6 Q. Do you agree that after the 9th of May, 1945, all enemy units and

7 individuals who were on the side of the defeated fascist forces had to

8 surrender and hand over their weapons to the victorious forces that had

9 won a victory over fascism?

10 A. I don't know that.

11 Q. Can you agree with me, then, that Skica, that is Marko Tomusic,

12 did not hand over his weapons on the 9th of May, 1945, to the authorities

13 of the federative state of Yugoslavia?

14 A. It's possible.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'm on the point -- well, I

18 am objecting to this line of questioning for this reason. It's not

19 apparent to me the relevance of this. When it started, I thought that the

20 point of it was to -- of this line of cross-examination was to establish

21 sympathy on the part of Mr. Lukac with fascist forces in the past or the

22 Ustasha, and that this would therefore affect the credibility of what he

23 says to this Chamber. But it's got to the point now where it seems to be

24 a historical examination, and I can't see that there is any -- how

25 questioning on events just after World War II is going to affect his

1 credibility here. If Mr. Pisarevic can explain how this line of

2 questioning is, A, relevant to an issue in the trial, or, B, relevant to

3 the credibility of this witness, then I'll withdraw my objection, but on

4 the face of it one is perplexed as to the simple relevance of this line of

5 questioning. I don't want to stop Mr. Pisarevic, if credibility is what

6 he's seeking to attack, but I simply cannot see how he can link these line

7 -- these questions to that very issue. And I've desisted from objecting

8 for some time but -- but that's the basis of my objection.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: I was wondering too, but I thought that because he

10 has read these three books by the witness and maybe -- I don't know what

11 his future intentions are for the defence of his client but I was

12 wondering, but I'm sure he has understood your --

13 MR. DI FAZIO: That's why I hesitated, but now we are getting into

14 details of events in 1945 and unless we can link that to the believability

15 or credibility of Mr. Lukac, then it must be irrelevant and I object to

16 it.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sure counsel has understood what you have said

18 and that he will deal with it.

19 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is precisely

20 what this is about, because Mr. Lukac wrote these books, and on the basis

21 of what he wrote, and the way in which he presented it to the public, I am

22 attempting to show how credible Mr. Lukac is as a witness in these

23 proceedings.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but even on that, you understood the

25 Prosecutor's objection. You have to show some relevance to the

1 proceedings before the Trial Chamber. You simply don't deal with

2 credibility on a matter completely outside the issues before the Trial

3 Chamber, because this is a criminal trial. It's not a historical

4 commission.

5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour, that this is

6 not a historical commission, but by his writings, in my opinion, Mr. Lukac

7 is rehabilitating the Ustasha forces and rehabilitating those forces

8 which, after the end of World War II, did not hand over their weapons to

9 the regular authorities. Any rehabilitation of members of the fascist

10 armed forces is, from today's vantage point, completely unacceptable.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Those are your opinions. You can attack Mr. Lukac

12 in another forum, certainly not here.

13 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour, but in any

14 case, I believe it is important -- in order to create a complete picture,

15 a complete impression of this witness, it is important to show the

16 opinions that he has publicly espoused in his books. I think that this is

17 something that this Trial Chamber should hear.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: No, I don't think so, Mr. Pisarevic, please. If you

19 have any questions relevant to the trial, then you can proceed. If you

20 are here to discuss what his books have, then I will stop you.

21 MR. PISAREVIC:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lukac, can we agree that during the armed

23 conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the extremists among the Serbian

24 people used a name or rather they used words such balijas, Turks,

25 mujahedins, to describe the Muslims, and they called the Croats Ustasha?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can we agree that the extremists among the Muslim people called

3 the Serbs Chetniks, Serbo-Chetniks, advocates of greater Serbia and so on?

4 A. Yes. Those were terms used during the war.

5 Q. Well, that was exactly what I asked. Can we agree that the

6 extremists among the Muslims used Ustasha as a term to describe the Croats

7 during the Muslim-Croat armed conflict?

8 A. In certain parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina, not in all parts,

9 because this conflict did not exist everywhere in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10 Q. Mr. Lukac, can we agree that the extremists among the Croatian

11 people used words such as Serbo-Chetniks, Chetniks, Serbo-communists,

12 advocates of greater Serbia, to describe the Serbs?

13 A. I would not agree when you say the extremists among the Croats.

14 Q. I asked you whether you agree or not.

15 A. Those were words that were used to describe the various parties in

16 the conflict.

17 Q. Very well. Can we then say that all the Croats used these terms?

18 A. I can't say all of them, but it's not just something used by

19 extremists in any of these segments of the population.

20 Q. Does your negative answer mean that you did not use such terms?

21 A. I used them and I still use them.

22 Q. Can we agree that you belong to that segment of the Croatian

23 people which uses such terms even today?

24 A. That is correct. And I'm justified in using them.

25 Q. Mr. Lukac, there is no doubt that you are a victim of this war.

1 My last question is the following: In any of your books, did you ever

2 mention the Serbian victims of this war from the camps in Odzak, Orasje,

3 the conflicts in Sijekovac and Bosanski Brod, and did you condemn the

4 criminal acts perpetrated by Croats against them? Please answer yes or

5 no.

6 A. My research into war crimes was focused exclusively on the crimes

7 by Serbian Chetniks against the Croatian people in Posavina.

8 Q. Tell me what you wrote.

9 A. I have answered you. I have answered your question.

10 Q. Please answer yes or no. Did you write anything like that or

11 not?

12 A. I have told you what the topic of my research was, and I have

13 answered your question.

14 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have

15 finished. Thank you very much.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Next counsel, please.

17 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, my learned

18 friends.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lukac, my name is Novak Lukic, and I will ask

21 you some questions on behalf of Miroslav Tadic. I will not go far into

22 the past. My questions will be mostly about your testimony before this

23 Tribunal.

24 To begin with, I would like to clarify an undisputed fact if

25 possible. During the examination-in-chief, you were shown a photograph,

1 and according to my notes, it's number 39 from P14. This is a photograph

2 of the Mladost company, a company in Samac.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have a photograph here which depicts

4 the same company, but it's taken from a different angle, and I think it

5 could be used to clarify something. The best thing, I think, would be to

6 put it on the ELMO, and it can show the relative positions of this company

7 and the AS Cafe, and then I would like to tender this photograph into

8 evidence.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Was the Prosecution shown this photograph?

10 MR. DI FAZIO: I've seen this photograph. If it's the same

11 photograph that Mr. Lukic showed me on Friday, and I believe it is from

12 what I can see from this point, I have no objection to its being produced

13 in evidence.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number, please?

15 THE REGISTRAR: This photograph shall be marked for the record as

16 Defence Exhibit D2/3.

17 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Lukic, what is the title of the photograph?

18 What do you wish to call it?

19 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] I would prefer to ask my questions

20 first, but we might call it the Mladost company, taken from a different

21 angle, or perhaps Edvarda Kardelja Street. That was the name of the

22 street at the time.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: If I have difficulties with what title, can you ask

24 your questions first then.

25 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] Thank you.

1 Q. Mr. Lukac, can you show us the ^ Mladost company, the Samac

2 knitwear industry?

3 A. All these buildings here are connected to that company. The

4 building we saw on other photographs in recent days is this one here.

5 Q. Can you tell us whether you recognise the AS Cafe in this

6 photograph?

7 A. Well, it's not clearly visible here, but it should be in this

8 house here, in this building. So under these bushes, that's where the

9 entrance was.

10 Q. Thank you very much. The name of the street is Edvarda Kardelja

11 Street, as far as I know.

12 A. Yes, I think it was.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This photograph could be entitled the

14 street in which ^ Mladost and AS are located, because that was what my

15 question was about. Thank you.

16 Q. Mr. Lukac, in your testimony, you described the communications

17 centre in the SUP building. Was there another communications centre in

18 Samac at that time?

19 A. I think it was in the secretariat for national defence, within the

20 scope of the centre for alerts. I don't know what it was called.

21 Q. Do you remember where the premises of the centre were?

22 A. They were in the building in which the secretariat for national

23 defence in Bosanski Samac was located.

24 Q. But this is not near the SUP building. How far are they? How far

25 are these premises?

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1 A. About 300 to 400 metres.

2 Q. Do you recall that in that communications centre at the

3 secretariat for national defence, Kosta Simic and Stevo Arandjelic worked

4 there? Do you know about that?

5 A. I don't know whether they worked in that centre, but as far as I

6 can remember, they did work in the secretariat for national defence.

7 Q. Thank you. I wish to ask you some questions about the time you

8 spent in Samac after you were detained. You said that you were

9 transferred from Crkvina to the TO building in Samac on the 20th, on a

10 Monday, as far as I remember.

11 A. No, it was a Sunday.

12 Q. A Sunday.

13 A. Noon on Sunday.

14 Q. And you stayed there until you were transferred to Brcko?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. The 26th of April?

17 A. Yes. Yes.

18 Q. And throughout this time, you were in the TO building, the

19 premises of the Territorial Defence?

20 A. In one of the storage rooms of the Territorial Defence building.

21 Q. And in that room there were some other people there with you. Do

22 you remember whether Mr. Izet Izetbegovic was there with you?

23 A. Yes, he was.

24 Q. Mr. Omer Nalic, was he there?

25 A. Yes, for part of that time.

1 Q. Was Sulejman Tihic there?

2 A. At certain periods of time, yes.

3 Q. This is a very direct question: While you were there in those

4 rooms, those premises, did Miroslav Tadic enter those premises at that

5 time?

6 A. I don't remember that.

7 Q. Were you always able to see who was entering the room you were in?

8 A. Yes, but I was taken out of that room at certain times.

9 Q. Were you taken out at night?

10 A. Well, in the early evening hours, perhaps. I can't remember.

11 Q. Do you remember that you were always there after 2200 hours,

12 during those days?

13 A. Most probably I was.

14 Q. When was the first time, if ever, that you saw Miroslav Tadic on

15 the day before you were exchanged, when you said you saw him?

16 A. As far as I can recall, the first time I saw him was on the day I

17 was exchanged.

18 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you another question. Do you remember

19 whether before the 17th of April there was any kind of sabotage attack or

20 any attack on the mosque in Samac?

21 A. Before the beginning of the war?

22 Q. Yes, before the beginning of the war.

23 A. As far as I can remember, no.

24 Q. During your replies to Mr. Pisarevic during the cross-examination

25 and also during the examination-in-chief, you described an incident when

1 your police force stopped a vehicle bearing Vukovar registration, licence

2 plate, and you found weapons inside, and they were Serbs.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did your police and your chief of part of that police force,

5 before you were detained were -- did they ever find explosives or arms in

6 -- at a Muslim's or a Croat's house?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And on those occasions, did you write any reports? Did you submit

9 any reports about that?

10 A. Yes. I submitted criminal reports and detained those persons as

11 well.

12 Q. Do you remember their names and their ethnic background?

13 A. I don't remember their names, but they were Croats.

14 Q. Do you recall where the weapons were found, where they were found

15 carrying weapons? Was it in the town of Samac or in the roads leading to

16 it?

17 A. One of them was a member of the Croatian army, who was visiting

18 his parents in a village near Doboj. He was on his way back to the

19 Republic of Croatia, and as he was leaving Bosnia and Herzegovina, he was

20 stopped at our police checkpoint on the bridge over the River Sava.

21 Q. Did you check the weapons entering from -- entering the territory

22 of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

23 A. I did not check vehicles either coming or going, but uniformed

24 policemen did.

25 Q. You understood my question. Of course I didn't expect you to do

1 that personally, but your police force, did they check vehicles entering?

2 A. The police checked vehicles but not every single vehicle. They

3 used the method of a random sample to do this -- that.

4 Q. You said there were ten policemen at the bridge at night, just

5 before the attack. What was the number of policemen in the previous days

6 and months?

7 A. Yes, that was the number.

8 Q. You didn't tell us how many policemen there were during the day.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think you clarified with that question. You

10 can go ahead.

11 A. I can't recall whether it was the same number by night and by

12 day. Probably there were more by night than by day, but the reason for

13 this was that the bridge was being guarded because it had been damaged

14 before that.

15 MR. LUKIC:

16 Q. [Interpretation] But at night, the bridge was closed for traffic?

17 A. It was closed for traffic between 1900 hours to 0600 hours.

18 Q. On the other side of the bridge was the territory of the Republic

19 of Croatia and still is?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. There was a war on then?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Mr. Lukac, you mentioned the 24th of September, I think it was,

24 that inspectors from the joint detachment of the MUP, the Ministry of the

25 Interior from Sarajevo, arrived?

1 A. No. They arrived on the 2nd of December, 1991.

2 Q. And how many men were in that unit, do you remember?

3 A. I don't recall but about 30.

4 Q. They arrived before the 4th Detachment was established?

5 A. I don't know exactly when the 4th Detachment was established, so I

6 can't say that for certain.

7 Q. You said it was in January 1992.

8 A. Well, because it was done secretly, I assume it was then, in

9 January 1992.

10 Q. Are you aware that some of the members of this joint detachment

11 were active members of the SDA?

12 A. I was not aware of it then, but it was a multi-ethnic unit until

13 the end, and it was made up of all the elements, in accordance with all

14 the provisions of the laws of the MUP of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

15 Q. You said there had been 23 incidents. Mr. Pisarevic mentioned

16 some other incidents in addition. There was a special unit that had

17 arrived to help out because the law and order had been disrupted. The

18 patrols of self-organised citizens went through the city, through the

19 town, and there were clashes, some people were injured. Do you still

20 stand by your statement of September 24th that you assert that there had

21 been no inter-ethnic clashes on the territory of the municipality of

22 Bosanski Samac?

23 A. What period do you have in mind?

24 Q. In the period before the war.

25 A. Well, open inter-ethnic clashes among the citizens did not exist.

1 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like to speak about a different subject

2 briefly. [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 A. [redacted]

6 [redacted].

7 Q. Before your testimony, you said that following the exchange, you

8 went -- after having been medically treated, that you went to your family

9 that was residing in Austria. I'm interested in when your family left

10 Samac.

11 A. April 11th, 1992.

12 Q. That means a few days before the clash?

13 A. The day when I was appointed acting head of the police station.

14 Q. Were other families, before the conflict, or parts of these

15 families, did they leave the municipality also?

16 A. Yes, they did, mostly over the weekend.

17 Q. Can we say that this was common to all members of ethnic groups?

18 A. Basically, this was the case of the Serb and Croat people, but I

19 don't think that this was so much the case of the Bosniak ethnic group.

20 There may have been individual cases.

21 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to speak about a subject which is the

22 most interesting in your testimony, the question of exchanges. You said

23 that Mr. Vasovic had come to the police building premises where you were

24 found and asked you whether you wanted to be part of the exchange.

25 A. That is correct.

1 Q. In your books, you describe that you would always recall that

2 day. And I suppose that you remember very well the day of the exchange

3 and how it evolved?

4 A. Yes, for the most part, I remember.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now I would like to

6 introduce, to tender, some written evidence, but first I would like to

7 clarify a certain point. These are lists of exchanges. During the

8 proceedings, the defence of Miroslav Tadic and the colleagues from the

9 Prosecution will be tendering many of such lists. The Prosecution said

10 that it would tender such lists, and I believe there are about 200 or 300

11 pages of such lists in the hands of the Prosecution. This is evidence

12 which the Prosecution handed over to the liaison officers of Republika

13 Srpska. The Defence has also prepared and disclosed to the Prosecution a

14 portion of these lists.

15 Now I would like to tender exchange lists that relate to the day

16 when the witness himself was exchanged. The lists that I have prepared

17 for tendering are partly proof -- evidence of the lists that have also --

18 will be also presented by the Prosecution, and if the Prosecution insists

19 that there should be evidence of the lists that they themselves have --

20 intend to tender, then I would simply like to ask a few questions to the

21 witness in relation to the list.

22 On the other hand, I did not translate the lists into English.

23 All the lists that we shall be tendering - and I think there are about 50,

24 in my opinion - are only names of persons with numbers, and also with

25 dates, reference dates, but if the Trial Chamber considers this necessary,

1 we can have them translated, but given the situation where the witness has

2 explained the lists of Donja Hasici and the collection of money, that we

3 can simply, through questions, tender such lists in the basic language, in

4 the original language, but if it's necessary, if the Court so esteems, we

5 can translate this into English too.

6 Now I'd like to ask the usher to submit a copy of the list.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: I will ask the Prosecution, after they have seen the

8 lists, to confirm what you have said.

9 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] The first list -- I would just like to

10 clear up this point.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I just want to -- can the Prosecution be shown

12 first. If the usher can show that so that the Prosecution can confirm

13 whether they've seen that document or not.

14 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] This is only the first list. I think

15 there is a total of seven or eight lists.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: So you intend to produce eight lists?

17 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] One by one. Well, I would like to help

18 my colleagues from the Prosecution. The document was submitted by the

19 Prosecution on October 30, 1998 during the disclosure proceedings.

20 I would like to clear up this point, because the Prosecution did

21 not have their earphones. This list was submitted in the disclosure

22 proceedings on October 30, 1998.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe the Prosecution can comment.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. We've received this document from the

25 Defence.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: No. They are saying you disclosed it to them. Can

2 you -- let me just clarify this, because I want to know from whether the

3 Prosecution knows about this list.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, we know about the list.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: And no objection?

6 MR. DI FAZIO: No. No.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number, please?

8 THE REGISTRAR: This list shall be marked for the record as

9 D3/3 ter.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. We cannot hear the

11 counsel.

12 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] This was the first list submitted by

13 the Prosecution, and the second two lists are pieces of evidence which the

14 Prosecution has prepared to tender.

15 Q. Mr. Lukac, I suppose that you have seen that list while you were

16 reading -- while you were writing your book.

17 A. Well, I did have the list at the given moment, the list of persons

18 that were exchanged then. I don't know if it is this particular list.

19 Q. Can you read in the heading in the memorandum what is stated?

20 A. "Republika Srpska, Serbian Municipality of Samac. Exchange

21 Commission, Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners and Civilians.

22 Samac, September 4, 1992."

23 Q. So now please read the name of the list?

24 A. "List of Men Participating in Exchanges on September 4, 1992, in

25 Dragalic."

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1 Q. I would like to analyse this. We see your name under the number

2 23 [sic].

3 A. But this information is not correct.

4 Q. You mean to do with information relating to you. Can you read

5 this out so we can clear the point, clear up this point?

6 A. "Lukac, Dragan, son of Ivo, born in Bazik, 1956, living in B full

7 stop." I don't know what that means. It must be a "Ne." I was not born

8 in Bazik but in Bosanski Samac, so the information is not correct.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: And is your name listed on under number 25?

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I think it is number 25. I think it was a

12 small mistake, that's all.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Because I understood 25 -- 23, rather. Is your name

14 under 25 or 23, Witness? Under which number?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Twenty-five.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, counsel, you can proceed.

17 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation]

18 Q. On this list I noted some other names as well, persons that we

19 have seen on the videotape. I see the name of Puskaric, number 18; Delic

20 Dragan, number 20. I can see the name of Muhamed Bicic, number 21.

21 I can see something in brackets along some of the names. What is

22 written in those brackets? Can you tell me?

23 A. Which brackets are you referring to?

24 Q. In section with number 1, Vukovic Stipo.

25 A. In brackets, he did not leave.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: What do you mean when you say "he did not leave"?

2 That means he wasn't actually exchanged? Would it be the case that some

3 people were listed but not actually exchanged?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I'm just writing what

5 is written -- reading what is written.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So what do the brackets on number 1 mean, if

7 you know?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what they mean. I just

9 read them out at the request of the Prosecution [sic].

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Perhaps counsel can clarify that.

11 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] I apologise.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was asked by the counsel.

13 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] Well, in the understanding of the

14 Defence, these are people who did not go for exchange.

15 Q. Do you know the person under number 6? He's a Croat.

16 A. No, I don't know him.

17 Q. Do you know the person with -- carrying number 2?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Number 8?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was he exchanged along with you?

22 A. I think he was exchanged but that he returned.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: What does the witness mean? Did he actually leave

25 on the day of exchange and then return later or he didn't actually leave

1 on the day of the exchange? What do you mean?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I want to say that he went for

3 exchange, the place where the exchange was taking place, but that he had

4 not been actually exchanged. Why this was the case, I do not know.

5 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation]

6 Q. Do you remember that when you left the bus, did someone from the

7 commission ask those persons whether they wished to go to the other side?

8 A. I don't remember.

9 Q. Did someone read out the list in front of the bus?

10 A. Mr. Tadic was there. Whether he read the list or not, I really do

11 not know. I cannot say.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 A. I must inform you that I had received the information then that my

14 father had died while I was at camp, and given that situation, I could not

15 really pay attention to any of the formal details.

16 Q. Now I would like to tender another list. This evidence has a

17 number. It is an evidence the Prosecution intended to tender, and it is

18 on their list of evidence regarding exchange lists.

19 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Lukic, on your first list, the alphabet's in

20 brackets. There are two alphabets there. Is that "NE"? Because mine was

21 quite smudged, my copy is smudged.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] My copy isn't much better. The

23 letters are "N" and "E."

24 JUDGE SINGH: Consistently throughout the list are the initials

25 "NE." Have you found out what "NE" means? What does "NE" stand for, do

1 you know, yourself?

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I know, and I will prove it

3 during the proceedings. It means that those persons did not go over to

4 the opposite side.

5 JUDGE SINGH: [No microphone].

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Singh, please.

7 JUDGE SINGH: The words "NE" are an abbreviation for something.

8 What does it stand for?

9 MR. LUKIC: I will answer in English. It's a word that means

10 "no." [Interpretation] That is the simplest way.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Have the Prosecution seen the second document?

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, it's got a number.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: No objection?

14 MR. DI FAZIO: No, there is no objection to its use.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number from the Registry.

16 THE REGISTRAR: This document shall be marked for the record as

17 Defence Exhibit D4/3 ter.

18 MR. LUKIC:

19 Q. [Interpretation] I will be brief here, Mr. Lukac. Can you please

20 read the title, the heading?

21 A. I don't know what is written in the memorandum.

22 Q. No, not what is written in hand. On the right, read out what is

23 written on the right-hand side?

24 A. "Bosanski Samac" is written, and the title is, "List of persons

25 exchanged on September 4th 1992, in Draganac [as interpreted]."

1 Q. What is written next to the signature?

2 A. "President of the -- of the exchange commission," I suppose.

3 There are only two letters but I suppose it means that "of prisoners and

4 arrested civilians," signed by Mijo Matanovic.

5 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, may I intervene for a second? It

6 appears in the transcript on the line -- page 32, line 10, that the place

7 is Draganac. It is not Draganac. It is Dragalic, which is the same place

8 which was mentioned in the first document, D3/3 ter, just for

9 clarification.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can the witness confirm that? Because I heard

11 "Draganac."

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The place is called Dragalic.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

14 MR. LUKIC:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Have you heard of a person by the name of Mijo

16 Matanovic?

17 A. Yes, I have.

18 Q. And did he work at the place where he actually signed in the

19 commission for the exchange of prisoners and arrested civilians?

20 A. At the time, I think he was a member of the commission. I don't

21 know whether he was president of the commission.

22 Q. On the list, you -- I can only see names of women. Can we agree

23 on that point?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Under number 1, it's barely legible.

1 It is the question of a witness by the name of Snezana Delic. I can only

2 comment that it is someone from the Prosecution when they received the

3 list, they underlined this, but it is quite clear that she is under 1.

4 Thank you. Now I would like to go on to the third list.

5 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I wonder whether I could ask you what the "plus

6 2" means.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I am pretty sure it means, plus two

8 children, given subsequent lists where this was marked in words, in

9 addition to the numbers. It would be best that we ask Snezana Delic when

10 she comes to the stand, whether she went along with her two children to be

11 exchanged.

12 Can the usher put up the next list?

13 MR. DI FAZIO: I can tell the Chamber that we've got this

14 document.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So can we have the number for it, please?

16 THE REGISTRAR: This document shall be marked for the record as

17 Defence Exhibit D5/3 ter.

18 MR. LUKIC:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lukac, can you read out the name of this

20 list?

21 A. "List of men to be exchanged September 4th 1992."

22 Q. Can you read the text on the seal? It is not easy but perhaps you

23 can decipher what is written.

24 A. "Red Cross of Bosnia and Herzegovina, municipal conference,

25 Bosanski Samac."

1 Q. Thank you. Next to number 1, something has been written by hand.

2 Can you read what is written?

3 A. It is written "is returning."

4 Q. Number 2?

5 A. "Does not want to."

6 Q. Number 3?

7 A. "Left --" I don't know what the second word means. It may be

8 "Dobojlija." I'm not sure.

9 Q. Number 8?

10 A. Next to 8 it says, "Does not want to."

11 Q. Number 10?

12 A. Also, "Does not want to."

13 Q. 27?

14 A. "Is returning".

15 Q. 30?

16 A. "Does not want to."

17 Q. 34?

18 A. "Does not want to."

19 Q. On the right-hand side, there are also some signs, a sort of

20 legend. Can you read what is written next to the circle?

21 A. It is a letter O, I think: "Persons who have been requested and

22 exchanged."

23 Q. Then next letter can be termed, described as a V. What is written

24 next to it?

25 A. "Other persons which have been added in addition to the list," in

1 brackets, "civilians."

2 Q. Next to the dash, what is written?

3 A. It says, "Others -- the others did not wish to cross over to our

4 side."

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now, until the break, Your

6 Honour, I would like to tender another two lists and I will not be asking

7 questions of the witness about them. They bear the same date, and they

8 are also evidence of the Prosecution. These are lists of other

9 commissions that brought people for exchange on the same day. The witness

10 mentioned that four buses had come, and one list is a list of persons of

11 Croat and Muslim ethnicity, to be exchanged between Doboj and Bosanski

12 Brod, and the other list is exchanges between Derventa -- exchanged

13 persons. And in respect of those lists, I have no questions of the

14 witness, but I think that they can be tendered now because they relate to

15 the same date.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: It's 11.00 and we shall have our break, and I would

17 suggest that the other lists you have, can you show them to the

18 Prosecution during the break so we do not have to ask for their stand each

19 time a document is shown? And the other thing is, you have said, counsel,

20 you have said that these are documents that came from the Prosecution. I

21 would like to ask the Prosecution whether they have translations of these,

22 English translations.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: I just don't know off the top of my head, if Your

24 Honour pleases. I can check that over the break.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: During the break.

1 MR. DI FAZIO: And let you know afterwards.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will take the break and resume at 11.30.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, may I just raise one other

4 brief matter? We are going swiftly this morning, I noticed, and I haven't

5 arranged -- Mr. Izetbegovic is our next witness, and I told him to be out

6 of his hotel room yet, rather that we do not need him until -- for my own

7 purposes, until this afternoon, so I have no way of contacting him until

8 this afternoon. I think we are not going to finish today with

9 cross-examination, but if Defence counsel can tell us that they think,

10 "Oh, yes, we definitely will," then I will try to make some moves to see

11 if we can locate him and have him available for later in the day. But --

12 do you understand my dilemma?

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I can understand that and it's usually

14 difficult.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe you can discuss it during the break.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll do what I can, if Your Honours please, but I

18 will just foreshadow -- I hope it doesn't happen but a possibility that we

19 may finish just before 1.00 or soon before 1.00, and I don't have a

20 witness to start immediately at that time unless I can get --

21 JUDGE MUMBA: There is no harm for you making arrangements that he

22 comes in any time after the break.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. That's if I can contact him. But I'll speak

24 to my colleagues and see if I can ascertain the situation with more

25 precision. Thank you.

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1 JUDGE MUMBA: You may end up persuading them to lengthen their

2 cross-examination. We shall take the break until 11.30 hours.

3 --- Recess taken at 11.05 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we proceed?

6 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Lukic, before you begin, I wonder as a matter

7 of clarification with these lists, the three we have and the others that

8 will follow, whether you could just clarify re: the exchanges, the place

9 where the exchange took place and where the people from the Bosanski Samac

10 side were sent to after the exchange took place. Thank you.

11 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. It seems to me

12 that I should have made my introductory remarks at the very beginning, but

13 I shall share with you the knowledge I acquired while gathering evidence

14 related to the exchange procedure.

15 There were several commissions. They were mainly in charge of the

16 municipalities that were under a certain rule, that is to say, of the

17 Republika Srpska and the Croat government, Herceg-Bosna or, rather, HVO

18 the government that had its seat in Sarajevo.

19 The point was that the citizens who wished to be exchanged

20 reported to the municipal Red Cross and then a list was compiled of

21 persons who wished to be exchanged. That is list number 3 that we

22 analysed, where there is a stamp of the municipal Red Cross.

23 This document with these designations on the side,

24 handwritten - I'm referring to D5, actually - this text was written by the

25 representative of the Croat commission to whom this list was handed over

1 by the Serb commission. That is the document that was submitted to the

2 Prosecution. The Serb commission had the same kind of document that

3 remained in their hands as well. That is why it says in handwriting, "The

4 rest did not want to come to our side." That's what it says by the dash.

5 In addition to this kind of list, there is the first list that I

6 showed the witness. It was marked D3, the list of men who went for an

7 exchange. That is the list that is compiled after the exchange actually

8 takes place, and it remains in the records of the commission that was

9 carrying out the exchange.

10 You can see Tadic's signature there as well as another member of

11 the commission, and in brackets are the names of persons who decided to go

12 back to their homes, of their own free will, that is.

13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I think my question is perhaps a little -- can be

14 more simply answered. All I want to know is with respect to the exchanges

15 that we have on these three documents, were the exchanges across the

16 international border between Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia, one way or

17 the other?

18 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] That is precisely what I wish to ask

19 the witness about, and now I am going to put my question and then we're

20 going to clarify this particular matter, namely, the witness said that

21 Dragalic is the place where there were frequent exchanges and that it was

22 in the territory that was then controlled by the rebel Serbs, as he had

23 put it.

24 I would like to put the following question to the witness:

25 Q. Are you familiar with the term "UNPA zone"?

1 A. In a way, yes.

2 Q. Were these zones that were under the control of the UN forces?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. As for the territory that was under UN forces' control, was it

5 allowed to carry weapons there and to get weapons into that territory at

6 all?

7 A. As far as I know, no.

8 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] I would now like to ask the usher to

9 kindly put a map on the ELMO. Professor Donia had attached this map to

10 his paper. I'm not sure that this particular map was submitted along with

11 the rest. It was marked as map number 13. So I would like to tender it

12 with the rest, please.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the Prosecution first look at it and confirm

14 whether it was tendered so that we don't confuse and give two numbers to

15 one exhibit?

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Show it to the Prosecution, please.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, it was definitely part of

19 Mr. Donia's report, and my learned friend showed it to me during the

20 break. I believe it was tendered, and I believe it was given an

21 individual exhibit number during the testimony of Mr. Donia's -- during

22 Mr. Donia's testimony. What the precise number is I don't just know off

23 the top of my head, but we're just looking it up now.

24 JUDGE SINGH: Is it P2M?

25 MR. DI FAZIO: It may well be, Your Honour. I just want to check

1 the notes of the exhibits and see.

2 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] I tried to find that, but I came to the

3 conclusion that the maps were admitted in their entirety, so I cannot say

4 whether this particular map was admitted.

5 JUDGE SINGH: Yes. The map was admitted in its entirety as P2,

6 and the individual maps were then marked A, B, C, D, E, and then it goes

7 on. This one is P2M.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the usher show the exhibited map, the one which

9 is with the registry assistant, to the witness. Perhaps we can have it on

10 the ELMO after the witness has studied it.

11 Yes, you can go ahead and ask your questions, counsel.

12 MR. LUKIC:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Can you show Dragalic on this map, please?

14 A. I can't be very precise, because important places are not marked

15 here like Bosanska Gradisa, Slavonski Brod in the Republic of Croatia.

16 However, I think it should be somewhere in this part here. I really

17 cannot define exactly where it is in this particular way.

18 Q. Can we conclude that the gas station near Dragalic on the road

19 there was within the UNPA zone?

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, the witness is not sure. Do you have a map

21 with those places marked? Or is there a map among the exhibits with those

22 places marked? Because we can't go on with other answers on a place which

23 the witness says he's not sure where it is.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to give this map where the

25 UNPAs are marked, and I am asking the witness whether he knows whether the

1 gas station in Dragalic was in a UN-protected area. Does he know about

2 that. That is my question.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, do you have a map where UNPA places are

4 marked?

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I do not.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Then we don't have to deal with this map because, as

7 I said, the witness said he didn't know. Maybe you can ask questions

8 generally not necessarily referring to the map because the witness can't

9 tell.

10 MR. LUKIC:

11 Q. [Interpretation] I would like to put a general question to him,

12 whether he is aware of this fact that the gas station where the exchange

13 was carried out at the time of the exchange was in a territory that was

14 under UN control. It's a yes or no question.

15 A. No.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: So the answer is -- it wasn't -- the gas station was

17 not in the -- was not under control of the UN.

18 MR. LUKIC:

19 Q. [Interpretation] My next question is whether he saw members of the

20 UN wearing their characteristic uniforms on the spot during the exchange

21 itself.

22 A. I recall having seen them at the bridge on the Sava River between

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Republic of Croatia. I saw them there, and I

24 can't remember more than that, whether they were there where the actual

25 exchange was carried out.

1 Q. Can you tell us whether you saw them before the exchange, before

2 you came to the gas station?

3 A. Yes. I saw them before the exchange, on the bridge, because they

4 entered the bus where we were -- that we were in.

5 Q. Do you know that at that time, the UN-protected area was covered

6 inter alia by the Nepalese Battalion under the UN?

7 A. I think that the people I saw on that bridge were the members of

8 that particular battalion.

9 Q. I don't know whether this answers Judge Williams's questions. I

10 am going to pursue this matter further and I'm going to prove that

11 exchanges only took place within UN-protected areas.

12 I would just like to go back to the three documents that I

13 tendered very briefly. You said that the persons whose names I read out

14 and where it says, "No" in addition to that, do you know the name --

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the name because

16 counsel did not speak into the microphone.

17 MR. LUKIC:

18 Q. [Interpretation] This is on list D3?

19 A. I know. I said from earlier on that I knew this person.

20 Q. Did he work with you at the SUP?

21 A. He never worked with me because he retired before I started

22 working in the police.

23 Q. Did he work at the SUP or rather the police?

24 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lukic, on our transcript, the

25 interpreter wasn't able to hear the name of the person you're referring to

1 because of microphone. Do you think you could just give us the name

2 again, please?

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Ivan Lonac, under number 8 on list

4 D3.

5 Q. Is this a Croat?

6 A. Yes, a Croat married to a Serb woman.

7 Q. Do you know where he went after that day?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Was he with you on the bus that went on to the territory of the

10 Republic of Croatia?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Can you just answer me whether you remember whether the same

13 number of people were on the bus after the exchange was carried out?

14 A. I cannot remember how many people there were, but I know that

15 there were a lot more people on the bus that brought us in for the

16 exchange than is on this -- these lists.

17 Q. You said 70, 80, if I remember correctly, during your testimony?

18 A. That's right, because the bus was full, because people were

19 sitting in all the seats there, and there were also people who were

20 standing, and usually such buses have 50 seats.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would now ask that we

22 look at some video footage, only a few seconds, from the exchange. We've

23 already seen this. This is P27. The Prosecutor showed this. I have only

24 one question to put to this witness in this regard. So could the

25 technical services please be allowed to show this particular clip? I have

1 prepared it.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honour pleases, I wonder if Mr. Lukic could

4 let us know where in the transcript it appears, and also whether he will

5 be making use of the text of what is depicted, whether that's going to

6 feature in his questions, but primarily if he could let us know where on

7 the transcript it appears, the scene that he wants to show us.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. di Fazio. I don't

9 think it's necessary, because this is the particular frame where you

10 stopped the video, where Mr. Tadic can be seen, so it's without any text,

11 really. There is no need to analyse the text itself. We are just talking

12 about a particular frame, a clip, with Mr. Tadic on it.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe let's see it and see whether or not we are all

15 clear.

16 JUDGE SINGH: Was that the frame where he was looking at some

17 documents and the witness was asked if you know what he was doing and he

18 said he didn't? Is that the frame?

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Precisely. Could we please see the

20 clip now?

21 [Videotape played]

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we stop, please?

23 Q. Mr. Lukac, do you know any of these people?

24 A. I don't know any of the people who I can see now.

25 Q. Mr. Lukac, were they with you on the bus when you were coming for

1 the exchange?

2 A. I cannot claim that with any certainty, but I don't think so.

3 Q. Will you agree with me if I say that these could be Serbs?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] I have finished with the video. I

7 think there is no need for us to leave it on the screens any longer.

8 Q. I would now like to put a few questions also related to the

9 exchange. Before that, if possible, I would like to tender these

10 documents. I have agreed on this with the Prosecutor. These are

11 documents which are not being challenged, and I have no questions for the

12 witness.

13 I'm talking about two lists, actually, the list of exchanged

14 persons from Derventa with Bosanski Brod on the same day, and the list of

15 persons exchanged from Doboj with Bosanski Brod, also the same day. These

16 are the four buses that we saw and that the witness talked about. These

17 are actually lists that were presented by the Prosecution.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection?

19 MR. DI FAZIO: No, no objection in general.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Microphone.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: No objection in general, if Your Honour pleases,

23 but I would ask you to just ignore the comments of my learned friend

24 regarding what the lists are about, whether they relate to four buses or

25 not. We'll need evidence of that if that is to be proved. But as far as

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1 objection is concerned, no, no objection.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: I just wonder if we could be absolutely clear which

4 is which so that we can clearly mark them.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Could the usher please get documents from Defence

6 counsel and show them to the Prosecution.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: I believe I've been given copies already.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but if you can just identify what your list

9 shows.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I have seen this, and I have no

11 objection.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: I had asked for the break to find -- for you to find

13 out - the Defence says the documents originally came from you - whether

14 you had any English translation.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: No, we don't have any English translation.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number, please?

17 THE REGISTRAR: The list of exchanges between Derventa and

18 Bosanski Brod shall be marked for the record as Defence Exhibit D6/3 ter.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number, please?

20 THE REGISTRAR: The list of persons to be exchanged between Doboj

21 and Bosanski Brod shall be marked for the record as Defence Exhibit D7/3

22 ter.

23 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] Before I move on to the next few

24 questions also pertaining to exchanges, I would like to read a sentence

25 from Mr. Lukac's book "Bosanski Samac, The Town Camp -- Camp Town." It

1 has to do with exchanges.

2 "Throughout this period, a total of twelve exchanges were carried

3 out within which all of these persons were exchanged. Special dedication

4 and persistence, with a view to rescuing detainees and arrested civilians

5 from the occupied part of the municipality was exhibited by the Commission

6 for the Exchange of Prisoners and Arrested Civilians established with the

7 Croat commission of the Croat community of Bosanska Posavina -- the Croat

8 Defence Council of Bosanska Posavina, rather."

9 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours, please, no objection. I just

10 wonder if Mr. Lukac could assist us by telling us where in the book that

11 appears so that we can, if necessary, find it.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the page numbers.

13 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] It's page 80 in the B/C/S version, and

14 it is followed by his analysis of these lists.

15 Q. Mr. Lukac, you will agree with me, and I with you, that the name

16 of this commission was the Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners and

17 Arrested Civilians?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Mr. Lukac, the word "exchange" is identical in the language you

20 speak and the language I speak, in fact, in our language, and in the

21 municipality of Samac, the commission was called the Commission for the

22 Exchange of Prisoners and Arrested Civilians.

23 Can we agree that the word "exchange" means that something is

24 being given and something else is being received in exchange from the

25 party to which something is given?

1 A. I agree, but what -- it's important to know what is being given,

2 how much is being given, what is being received.

3 Q. I agree with you fully that this is very important. We can now

4 take a look at two exhibits to see what was gained by the Croatian

5 commission for exchange.

6 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] Would the usher please show the witness

7 the following document which I wish to tender into evidence. This is a

8 list for exchange of the 4th of July, 1992. I discussed it with my

9 learned friend Mr. di Fazio during the break, and this document has been

10 disclosed.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, for purposes of our records, you've simply

12 said this is a list of exchange for the 4th of July, 1992. Where and

13 which municipality? Can you give us that information before we get the

14 number?

15 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] This exchange will be discussed. I

16 think it was in Lipovac on the 4th of July, and some witnesses in these

17 proceedings were exchanged on that day, the 4th of July, 1992.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm not asking what -- any evidence at all. I'm

19 just wanting the title, so to speak.

20 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] I would call it the list for the

21 exchange of women of the 4th of July, 1992.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number, please?

23 THE REGISTRAR: This list of exchange of women of 4th of July,

24 1992, shall be marked for the record as Defence Exhibit D8/3 ter.

25 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation]

1 Q. Mr. Lukac, would you please first read the title of this list?

2 A. Well, you have already said. It's a list for the exchange of

3 women.

4 Q. Would you please read the signatures and give us an analysis of

5 the seal on the list.

6 A. On the left-hand side it says "Commander of the 102nd Brigade,

7 Ivica Matanovic." In the middle it says "Commander of VP." I assume this

8 refers to the military police, but I cannot see the name of that person.

9 It's illegible. On the right-hand side it says "Commission for Exchange,"

10 and the typewritten name above the signature is Ivica Matanovic [sic].

11 Q. There is some writing in the seal in the middle. I think you can

12 read that.

13 A. It says, "HVO, 102nd Brigade of Bosanska Posavina, Odzak."

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, counsel?

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I first have to

16 apologise to my colleague for the interruption, but I think this is

17 relatively significant in the transcript. It's line 11, it said Ivica

18 Matanovic, and I believe witness stated Mijo Matanovic. These are two

19 persons. So just to make sure this is properly in the transcript.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: This is the right-hand side of this document. Maybe

21 the witness can clarify the name, which name he mentioned.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are two names mentioned here,

23 Ivica Matanovic and Mijo Matanovic. On the left-hand side, it says,

24 "Ivica Matanovic as the Commander of the 102nd Brigade." And on the

25 right-hand side it says, "Commission for Exchange, signed Mijo

1 Matanovic."

2 MR. LUKIC:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lukac, you will agree with me that these

4 names and last names of women are mostly Serbian or most all of them are?

5 A. They should be.

6 Q. Many of these names have a word written next to them. Can you

7 tell us what it says here?

8 A. It says, for example, under number 1, "Stanic Milka and

9 children."

10 Q. I have counted at least 47 children here. I say "at least"

11 because it says "children" or "child," so it could be more than two

12 children in the case of children. Is that right?

13 A. Yes, yes, "children" is a word -- a noun in the plural.

14 Q. Tell me, please, you said that military-aged persons were over 18

15 years of age?

16 A. I was talking about the legal provision before the war.

17 Q. Yes, yes. That's what I was referring to.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Under the legislation, could children be detained?

20 A. No. "Children" means up to the age of 14.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. The next and the last list

22 I will tender today is a list of men from that same exchange.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Is it the same date? Can you tell us that, please?

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. At the end of the list, it says,

25 "4th of July 1992 in Lipovac."

1 JUDGE MUMBA: It's an exchange of men?

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Correct.

3 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Lukic, perhaps you can clarify, this last

4 exhibit, D8, so if you look at the earlier exhibits, this is exchanged

5 with which list? Is there a corresponding list with which these civilians

6 are exchanged? And if so, can you identify it?

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, Judge Singh. There

8 is a list, because, as we said, there were exchanges so it was a two-way

9 process. There is a list drawn up by the Serbian municipal commission of

10 the municipality of Samac. [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]. So these lists will be

14 produced with the persons who crossed over to the Serbian territory at

15 that time.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number for this last document,

17 please?

18 THE REGISTRAR: This list of exchange of men at Lipovac on the 4th

19 of July 1992 shall be marked for the record as Defence Exhibit D9/3 ter.

20 MR. LUKIC:

21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lukac, would you please read the title of

22 this list?

23 A. "List for exchange."

24 Q. Can we look at page 3? After number 100, there is a sentence or

25 two. Could you read that to us, please?

1 A. "The exchange will be carried out on the 4th of July, 1992 in

2 Lipovac."

3 Q. And above that?

4 A. Above that it says, "Concluded with ordinal number 100."

5 Q. There are three signatures again and three seals, so I think the

6 seals are more legible here so could you tell us what it says on the

7 left-hand seal, what the text is in the middle, and the right-hand seal?

8 A. On the left-hand seal it says, "102nd Brigade of Bosanska

9 Posavina, Odzak".

10 Q. In the middle?

11 A. In the middle there is the same text.

12 Q. On the right-hand side?

13 A. On the right-hand side it says, "Crisis Staff of the Municipality

14 of Odzak."

15 Q. And the text above that?

16 A. "Commission for Exchange," and the signature is that of Mijo

17 Matanovic.

18 Q. You said that under the law, able-bodied men, men of military age,

19 were up to 60 years old.

20 A. The law in force before the war.

21 Q. In 1992, people born in what year were turning 60?

22 A. In 1932, I think.

23 Q. Can you answer yes or no?

24 A. Something like that.

25 Q. You will agree with me that on this list are the names of Serbs?

1 A. I assume they are.

2 Q. You will agree with me that next to every name, there is a year, a

3 number denoting the year of birth?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Will you believe me if I tell you that I have counted 69 names of

6 persons over the age of 60?

7 A. I have no reason to doubt it. It's quite possible. I didn't

8 count them.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: But is over the age of 60 in 1992?

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I took 1932 as the limit, and then I

11 counted the number of persons who were older than that, who --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: You're saying up to 1992, that's all?

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 Q. I can now say, Mr. Lukac, that I fully agree with you that what

15 you receive is as important as what you give.

16 I will now put a few more questions to you. Did you have the

17 lists I have just shown you in front of you when you were writing your

18 book, "Bosanski Samac, The Town Camp"?

19 A. I can't say that. If I did have them, they are certainly in the

20 book.

21 Q. You will agree with me that in that book, you entered only the

22 names of persons who left the territory of Samac, and not the persons

23 exchanged by the commission of Odzak who arrived on the territory of

24 Samac?

25 A. That's correct.

1 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the Republic of Croatia, with

2 respect to persons wishing to cross over to its territory, required

3 guarantees from persons living on the territory of the Republic of

4 Croatia?

5 A. I don't know that, but I wish to point out that these people did

6 not all go to the Republic of Croatia when they were exchanged. They all

7 crossed over to the free territory controlled by the HVO.

8 Q. I agree with you. I asked you whether you knew this about the

9 Republic of Croatia.

10 A. No, I don't know.

11 Q. Can we agree that at the time of the conflict, the Odzak

12 municipality and the Samac and Orasje municipalities which were affected

13 by war were divided by the front line?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. As far as you know, were there any minefields there?

16 A. I don't know that, but it would be natural to assume that there

17 were.

18 Q. You said that many people, including you, sent their families or

19 parts of their families to safe territory, territory not affected by the

20 military conflict.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. At that time, was there a regular bus line running between the

23 municipalities of Odzak and Samac?

24 A. What time are you referring to?

25 Q. The time of the conflict. After the 17th of April and onwards.

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1 A. No.

2 Q. Was there any kind of civilian transport between places divided by

3 the front line?

4 A. Probably not.

5 Q. If someone wanted to cross the front line, would they go to a bus

6 station?

7 A. I don't know whether they would go to a bus station, a bus-stop if

8 there were no buses running.

9 Q. Would they perhaps go and report to the Red Cross?

10 A. I don't know that.

11 Q. I only have a few more questions about the exchange on that day.

12 You said that on that day, in the morning, you were all put into a bus.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. That you were escorted by two vehicles, one belonging to the

15 police and one in which the commission was.

16 A. I think there were two police vehicles.

17 Q. Mr. Lukac, the trip from Samac to Gradiska, did you spend all that

18 time in the bus?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Mr. Lukac, do you know Simo Krunic and Mirko Pavic?

21 A. Yes, I know them both.

22 Q. They are policemen who worked with you, are they not? They used

23 to work with you?

24 A. Before the war.

25 Q. Mr. Lukac, did you -- were you in the same vehicle with one or

1 both of them?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Mr. Lukac, you are still under oath.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I assume you are aware of this.

6 A. Yes, I am aware of it, but what you are saying is not true.

7 Q. Where were you sitting in the bus? Do you remember?

8 A. Yes, I remember where I was sitting, in the rear part of the bus.

9 Q. Mr. Lukac, when you arrived in Gradiska, did you perhaps sit with

10 these two in a cafe, drinking vinjak?

11 A. When we were in Gradiska, the bus stopped for three or four

12 hours. The two policemen you mentioned entered the bus and took me off

13 the bus to a cafe which was across the street from where the bus was

14 parked and there they drank -- they had a drink with me. It is the drink

15 you are referring to.

16 Q. Was Miroslav Tadic sitting there?

17 A. Miroslav Tadic was sitting at one of the neighbouring tables.

18 Q. To finish, I would like to read page 57 of Mr. Lukac's book, the

19 book "Bosanski Samac, The Town Camp." The witness describes this event as

20 follows:

21 "On arrival at that place, we were told that the exchange was to

22 take place at 1500 hours. It was unbearably hot inside the bus. The

23 minutes turned to hours. The leader of the Serbian delegation for

24 exchange, Miroslav Tadic, with a bushy beard and long hair, in order to

25 play the part of a Chetnik more convincingly, with his collaborators was

1 having a drink in a nearby cafe. He was drinking in order to suppress his

2 pangs of conscience."

3 Can we agree that you did not want to write that you, too, were

4 sitting in the cafe?

5 A. That has nothing to do with it. Everything I have written is

6 correct. That's how it was.

7 Q. But that was not what I asked you. I asked you something else.

8 Can we agree that it did not suit your purposes to put this fact in your

9 book?

10 A. It's irrelevant if 70 people were sitting in the bus. The bus is

11 across the street from where I was sitting, it's irrelevant.

12 Q. I see you do not want to answer my question.

13 A. That's your opinion.

14 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have completed my

15 cross-examination, but I would like to ask the witness some questions

16 relating to his credibility as a witness, and these questions refer to his

17 activities and his status today. If you will permit me, I would like to

18 put a few questions to him which I feel are important in order to show his

19 character, his personality, and the sincerity or truthfulness of this

20 witness.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: You can go ahead.

22 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. Lukac, a few moments ago, you described to my colleague

24 Mr. Pisarevic all the posts you held before the end of the war. Can you

25 tell us exactly what posts you held after the war? You told us in general

1 what you are doing today.

2 A. Do you want me to tell you about the time during the war or after

3 the war?

4 Q. No, that's already in the transcript.

5 A. In the period after the 2nd of May, 1994, I was the chief of the

6 crime investigation department in the Derventa police administration.

7 This was the post I held until before the reorganisation of the police in

8 Bosnia and Herzegovina under the Dayton Accord, when cantonal Ministries

9 of the Interior were established.

10 When the Ministry was established, I was the chief of the crime

11 investigation sector at the Ministry of the Interior of canton number 2.

12 I held that post until the 6th of June, 1997. On the 6th of June, 1997, I

13 was appointed Assistant Minister for the entire police at the Ministry of

14 the Interior at canton number 2. I stayed at that post until the 15th of

15 December, 1999. And after the 15th of December, 1999, I went to work in

16 the Federal Ministry of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I was the chief of the

17 crime investigation sector of the Federal Ministry of the Interior. I

18 held that post until the 20th of March this year, when the Ministry of the

19 Interior issued a decision, the Federal Ministry, appointing me acting

20 director of the police administration of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I

21 still hold that post today.

22 Q. Mr. Lukac, you are a public figure, and this is not only because

23 of your books but because of the posts you hold in a professional

24 capacity. Is it correct that you have recently often been targeted by the

25 media of the Muslim-Croatian Federation, that they have written articles

1 about you and television broadcasts, and that they do not show you

2 frequently in a positive light?

3 A. Well, depending on who's writing and for what purpose they're

4 writing. Those who write with the task of the Serb intelligence services,

5 they write in the way that you said.

6 Q. Well, you can say that there are some texts that have not shown

7 you up in a positive light?

8 A. There are different texts with different aims.

9 Q. Is it true that you took 3.000 Deutschemarks from a woman and with

10 that money tried to obtain information about her missing son and that you

11 gave that money to your informant? Yes or no?

12 A. I would like to tell this Chamber that I've been a policeman for

13 20 years and that I had never in any way been punished for the work I

14 performed. And I also wish to stress that for the appointment of any duty

15 I performed at the local police, the IMTF, who supervises the police in

16 Bosnia and Herzegovina, checks in detail on the person, and who has not

17 abided by the code of police behaviour could not be appointed to any point

18 in the police and especially not at such an important post as I occupy,

19 and I answered all the questions that you have put.

20 Q. I agree with you that there are all sorts of texts but you did not

21 answer my question whether you had taken 3.000 deutschemarks from a woman

22 to give that money to an informer, a person who was to find out where her

23 son was.

24 A. I do not wish to answer that question because it is not relevant

25 to any issue brought up in this courtroom.

1 Q. Will you answer that question? It is up to the Trial Chamber to

2 decide whether you should answer the question or not.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Will you answer the question?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can answer any question but

5 I'm wondering what the purpose of answering such a question, given its

6 aim.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel did say he's going do ask some questions

8 dealing with your credibility, and the Trial Chamber is of the view that

9 you should answer that question.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not take that money. I would

11 never do such a thing. And that lady you are referring to, she did give

12 money for that purpose that you mentioned.

13 MR. LUKIC:

14 Q. [Interpretation] But she didn't give you that money?

15 A. No, she didn't. She gave the money to another person who was

16 employed by the police at the time.

17 Q. Mr. Lukac, there was an article in the press relating to that

18 affair; is that not true?

19 A. Well, several articles were published in the press, not only that

20 one.

21 Q. Well, I am particularly interested in that affair, the affair of

22 the taking of that money.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So, according to a private suit of yours, you pressed charges

25 against the editor of that paper for the crime of libel, that it means

1 providing untruthful information which could be detrimental to the honour

2 and -- of a person. Did you press criminal charges in connection with

3 that article?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Mr. Lukac, I quite agree with you that journalists write most

6 anything. Given the circumstances before coming to this position, I

7 worked in the Court and dealt with libel and insults, and I will not speak

8 of the title in the papers. I will speak about your statement, which you

9 gave to the Court of Orasje on the 20th of October 1998 -- the 27th of

10 October, 1998. And before that, I would like to ask you whether you had

11 taken the money from that woman, the Martinovic family?

12 A. I did not take the money from that person. I have already stated

13 that. But it is a fact that the money -- that the woman did give that

14 money. I explained that earlier on.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I haven't got the

16 transcript in English of the verdict but I will state what in -- during

17 the proceedings of that day, of October 27th, 1998, what the witness

18 stated as -- in his capacity as witness. According to the regulations of

19 the former Yugoslavia and of the current state, the witness has to tell

20 the truth and, if he commits perjury, then he is to --

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you wait, counsel? I see the Prosecution on

22 their feet.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm just wondering if my learned friend has

24 disclosed this document to us. I just don't know, off the top of my head,

25 whether he has or not. It might assist us to go to it faster if he has

1 disclosed it. If he hasn't, then we are caught unawares by this document.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Counsel, you've heard the stand of the

3 Prosecution. Maybe you can explain.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will explain this to you, Your

5 Honour. I have not translated the document. It's a lengthy verdict. I

6 didn't think this would be necessary. I prepared something else on the

7 basis which I found out about that document, and this happened a few days

8 ago. On September 7th, on television, on the BNH Television, there was a

9 programme shown called, "The Talk Show," in which several people

10 participated, including the witness. I was informed about that programme,

11 and we have taped it and we have also a video transcript in B/S/C version

12 and in the English version, which I submitted to the Prosecution, and at

13 the end of my statement, I wish it -- would want to show you a sequence of

14 eight minutes where you can see an interview between the journalist and

15 the witness, and there I learned of some information and the verdict about

16 -- and about the verdict, too. I don't think it is disputable to show a

17 portion of his statement.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: No. What we are dealing with, is that the statement

19 which you have in your hands which you intended to read out to the

20 witness?

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It is the part of his testimony before

22 the Court. I haven't the translation in English because I was translating

23 the videotape.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: I want to be clear. This video footage, is it of

25 the proceedings or is it of an interview of the witness by a journalist

1 quite different from the proceedings, the Court proceedings from which you

2 are trying to read out what you allege was his statement?

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that is right.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Now the Prosecution is asking about the statement to

5 which you say he made in court, in court proceedings. They are asking

6 whether you have served them with a copy.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I secured a copy of the text which I

8 intend now to give to the witness, but I can also submit it to the

9 Prosecution and to the Judges also in English.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: You remember during the Status Conference, I did

11 issue instructions to the Defence apart from the Prosecution, that you

12 also, during cross-examination, if there are any documents you wish to

13 refer to during your cross-examination of Prosecution witnesses, do give

14 copies of those documents to the Prosecution in advance so that they can

15 make their own investigations, they can raise whatever they want to raise,

16 and at least they can make out their position at the time when you wish to

17 refer to them or at the time when you wish to produce them. Now, the

18 Prosecution is saying they are not sure whether you gave them a copy of

19 that statement you want to deal with with the witness. Now, your answer

20 is that you didn't.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No. I will not contest that I did not

22 submit this to the Prosecution.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: And then it's not in English, there is no English

24 translation of that?

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, there isn't. I was only

1 interested in a single sentence of that transcript.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Even if that's the case, because we have to be sure,

3 first of all, that these proceedings were actually held in a court of law,

4 as you allege, on the dates alleged. Now, if the document is in B/C/S

5 there is no way the Prosecutor, whom -- I'm sure Mr. di Fazio doesn't

6 speak Serbo-Croat or read it -- you have to be able to verify that before

7 you ask the questions to the witness.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, last week we had a

9 similar situation when tendering some evidence of the counsel. It is --

10 we are not contesting the need to have it translated into English and to

11 submit photocopies in the B/C/S language and in the English language. I'm

12 just explaining how I came about finding this information. I translated

13 the video footage, which is -- which I thought more important for the

14 translation, and in this particular text, there is only one sentence that

15 is relevant.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Then why don't we deal with the video footage, which

17 you say you did give to the Prosecution, which I'm sure they are aware

18 about, which they will confirm. Why do not we deal with that instead of a

19 document which the Prosecution don't have?

20 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honour pleases -- if Your Honours please, I

21 can tell the situation as it is. I'm not aware of, firstly, any judgement

22 from a court having been provided to the Prosecution. I think my learned

23 friend has confirmed that he has not provided any judgement or text of a

24 judgement of a court from Bosnia and Herzegovina. So that's the

25 judgement.

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1 As far as the video is concerned, I was this morning given a copy

2 of a transcript of a tape. I haven't seen the tape. I haven't been

3 provided with the tape. And that's the position in respect of those two

4 items. Judgement, never seen it, have not got it. This morning, given a

5 transcript, and transcript only, of videotape from some TV programme, I

6 believe.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: So you haven't seen it, you haven't --

8 MR. DI FAZIO: I haven't seen it, and indeed I haven't even had

9 time to go through the transcript in detail. I've glanced through it. It

10 was given to me this morning. That's the situation in respect of

11 disclosure to us.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I'm sure you've understood what the Prosecutor

13 has said, and that presents difficulties. If you want -- if, as you say,

14 it's only one sentence, there is another way of dealing with it. You can

15 state the basis of your question, whether there was a trial at such and

16 such a stage, let the witness answer, and then you can put the sentence to

17 him, whether he ever said that, whether it was in court or during an

18 interview, without necessarily referring to the document which has not

19 been given to the Prosecution, which has not been translated into

20 English. So you can do it generally.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam President. I will

22 try on the basis of a few questions, try to get the necessary information

23 from the witness.

24 Q. Mr. Lukac, did you, together with Marko Dominkovic, were you

25 together with him when the Martinovic family, the mother gave you

1 personally the amount of 3.000 deutschemarks to find her son?

2 A. This is true, I was with Mr. Dominkovic - he's head of the

3 uniformed police in the MUP of Orasje - when the person in question handed

4 over that money, and I told you that this money was not given to me, and

5 Mr. Dominkovic is police commissar in that department. He was appointed

6 last month.

7 Q. Why did you say in front of the court in Orasje, why did you state

8 that you had received the money along with that person and that you had

9 handed over that money together? First of all, you took a down payment of

10 1.000 deutschemark and after having obtained the information, an

11 additional 2.000 deutschemark. Why did you say this before the Court?

12 A. I said that because it was the truth.

13 Q. Well, there is only one truth. It is either what you said today

14 or what you stated before the courts in Orasje where you said that both of

15 you had received the money?

16 A. That is true, but you said at the beginning that only I received

17 that money, and that is quite a different matter.

18 Q. Well, we've cleared that point up.

19 JUDGE SINGH: I'm sorry, it's far from clear. Because you say in

20 your question, "Mr. Lukac, why did you state that you had received the

21 money?" The emphasis is on the word "you." No other person is mentioned

22 along with the person. "Why did you state that you had received the money

23 along with that person and that you had handed over that money together?"

24 Can you clarify the word "together"?

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Because at the beginning, the

1 gentleman had said that he had not received any money, in the first part,

2 and my question was whether he had received any money at all.

3 I asked him the question on a number of occasions, and he said

4 that he had hadn't received any money. Well, if he means that he didn't

5 receive any money, if someone standing alongside him receives money, well,

6 then ...

7 JUDGE SINGH: What I mean is the quotation that you're reading,

8 the summary of whatever you are reading, alleges that this is what the

9 witness said.

10 Mr. Lukac, do you understand what he's just said? He's referring

11 you to the testimony that you gave in court, and according to that

12 testimony, you said in court that you had received the money along with

13 that person and that you had handed over the money together. Is that what

14 you said in court?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is, but I did not receive

16 the money alone, on my own, especially not for my personal needs or to be

17 bribed or something. And that is the essence of all this. That is why I

18 pressed criminal charges against the journalist for libel, so that these

19 are two different matters. Who would bring charges against a journalist

20 if he had done what he had done and had been brought before the court to

21 answer for this?

22 JUDGE SINGH: That was the result of the proceedings?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The result of the proceedings was

24 that the Court, in fact, acquitted the person for libel, but not because

25 what I did what he said that I had done but because the Court had not

1 enough evidence that would confirm that the journalist had committed the

2 crime of libel by quoting what was quoted in the papers. And one of the

3 main reasons for that position was the change of the criminal law in

4 Bosnia and Herzegovina when in the case of libel, behaviour of the

5 journalist was rendered more liberal. And that is the essence, and not

6 because Dragan Lukac committed a crime.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, may I just say something

8 about the general line of the cross-examination? I repeat that I have no

9 documents apart. I have no problem with my learned friend getting into

10 this topic. But with respect to Mr. Lukac, he has brought us right to the

11 crux of the issue, because he finally made it clear what the purpose

12 of the -- his position, rather on this, the exchange involving the money,

13 and that's what my learned friend, with respect, should be going to if he

14 wishes to attack the credibility of this particular witness.

15 The circumstances of court proceedings and so on are not

16 particularly relevant, events in Bosnia-Herzegovina. It's the purpose for

17 which the money was received that can only be relevant to the question of

18 credibility, and Mr. Lukac has taken us to it straight away by denying

19 that it's a bribe and denying it's money received for any improper

20 purpose.

21 I don't want to stop Mr. Lukac from going into topic any further,

22 but it should be focused on that particular issue, purpose of money. Was

23 it a bribe? Was it a criminal act? Was it an improper receipt of money

24 by Mr. Lukac? And he can say, "Yes, it was. I'm a criminal," or he can

25 say, "No, it wasn't. I deny it," but it's only relevant from that point

1 of view.

2 So I would ask my learned friend -- encourage the Chamber to

3 instruct my learned friend that that's what he should be focusing on.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sure the counsel has understood, and the Trial

5 Chamber agrees with the point being made by the Prosecution.

6 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] I understood it quite well, but I do

7 not agree with my learned friend. I asked -- before I started asking the

8 questions, this set of questions, what the witness's positions had been,

9 and I believe that it is inappropriate that someone should be present and

10 not take money and give it to someone else on the basis of the position he

11 holds. And this is the purpose of my questions, because I believe that by

12 acting in that way, Mr. Lukac has -- in fact, given the functions that he

13 has -- that he holds, has in fact committed an inappropriate act.

14 And I would like to ask Mr. Lukac just one more question, whether

15 it is true that the Court, in the proceedings whereby the journalist was

16 acquitted, whether the Court held that the -- Mr. Lukac's act was

17 inappropriate, unprofessional, and gave rise to reflection regarding the

18 text that had been published. This was the assessment of the Court.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Again, that question can't be put to the witness

20 because of the same reason, that the Prosecution and the Trial Chamber

21 haven't got copies of the proceedings, because those are your conclusions

22 after reading the proceedings.

23 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further

24 questions. I can ask Mr. Lukac whether he had been a guest of the B and H

25 Federation television a couple of weeks ago and whether there was mention

1 during that programme about the issues that I questioned -- that I have

2 just questioned him about.

3 A. Yes, that is correct.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would suggest to look at the video

5 footage. And it is true that I have not submitted this to the Prosecution

6 and that I've only submitted the video transcript this morning, and it is

7 up to the Trial Chamber to decide whether such an exhibit, which has been

8 subsequently translated, can be shown or not.

9 I had in mind that some exhibits were to be observed as an

10 illustration only and that it was not necessary to submit such exhibits to

11 the opposite side in advance.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: What is your problem with the Prosecution viewing

13 the video footage before you use it in Court? What is your problem with

14 that?

15 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] I fully agree with you. I have no

16 questions for the witness at all. I can make a copy of the video footage

17 and submit it to the Prosecution.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Let's put it this way, since you're insisting:

19 Let's give the Prosecution time. All right? And then, because we still

20 have other counsel to cross-examine, then you can reserve your question

21 and come and deal with it after the Prosecution have had a look. Because

22 you see, the point is this: You can have what is the text of what is in

23 the video footage, but unless you see it, you can't be sure. And this is

24 a criminal trial. This the problem.

25 So the Prosecution have to know. They have to take their own

1 instructions. They have to make their own investigations and be sure that

2 the evidence they are allowing into the trial is evidence which is

3 acceptable and which is relevant. That's the point. That's why we insist

4 on exchanging whatever parties are trying to use during the trial.

5 So you haven't finished your cross-examination. We will allow you

6 to give whatever, the copies or the documents to the Prosecution if you

7 still feel it's necessary, then you'll come back to that when the

8 Prosecution is ready.

9 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I think your

10 suggestion is very welcome. I agree with you, and I will discuss the

11 matter with the Prosecution and see all -- and do everything in our power

12 to make it possible to analyse the document.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Is that the only question that was remaining? You

14 have finished? No other questions relating to other matters?

15 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] Absolutely no more questions.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: The next counsel to start cross-examination?

17 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: That is Mr. Zecevic?

19 MR. ZECEVIC: That's right, Your Honours.

20 [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Lukac. My name is Slobodan

21 Zecevic, and I suppose I will be questioning you also tomorrow.

22 [In English] Your Honour, I see it is the time. It's less than

23 two minutes to one. So would you like me to start or ...

24 JUDGE MUMBA: No. I was just trying to close in on Mr. Lukic.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry?

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1 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm just joking. Yes. I think we can rise now, and

2 you can start your cross-examination tomorrow, 0930 hours.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.00 p.m.,

4 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 2nd day

5 of October, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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