1 Wednesday, 3 October 2001

2 [The accused entered court]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [Open session]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Will the Registrar please call the

7 case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav

10 Tadic and Simo Zaric.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, you are continuing to cross-examine

12 for 15 minutes as you promised.

13 MR. PANTELIC: Good morning, Your Honours, yes, that is right.

14 But I suppose under the conditions like in basketball, the effective

15 cross, not, you know, this time-out, because I have some evidence to

16 produce so we could deduct it, of course, as yesterday you were so kind to

17 do that. Thank you so much.

18 WITNESS: DRAGAN LUKAC [Resumed]

19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 MR. PANTELIC: First I would like to apologise to my learned

21 friends from Prosecution because yesterday in the beginning of my

22 cross-examination, I said, "Can you hear me loud and clearly?" It was

23 directed to the translation booth, actually, not to them, so sorry once

24 again, but still, I don't have loud and clear -- I don't hear

25 interpreters, and it's hard for me to adjust to the tempo. So I would

1 kindly ask if the translators can speak a little bit louder and clearer.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: I wonder whether it's because of the way you placed

3 your microphones below your ear. I think if you put them directly on your

4 ears, you will be better, because they are quite loud and you adjust the

5 volume on your microphone.

6 MR. PANTELIC: That would be the case, Madam President, but the

7 problem is that with the earphones on my ears, I'm losing the atmosphere

8 of the courtroom, and, you know, it's giving me some problems, you know,

9 to follow these translation, so I think we could make -- thank you so

10 much.

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Pantelic: [Continued]

12 Q. Professor Lukac, good morning.

13 MR. PANTELIC: I kindly ask the registrar to show to the witness

14 Exhibit P21 and P21 ter. It was admitted -- actually produced by the

15 Prosecution in this case. So now, of course, Madam President -- so now,

16 Madam President, this time is not counting on my 15 minutes. Thank you.

17 Thank you.

18 English and B/C/S version, please, so you can put, please, the

19 B/C/S version in front of Professor Lukac, and English version I would

20 like to be on the ELMO so that we can -- it's just one sentence, nothing

21 more. Thank you.

22 Q. Now, I'm referring, Professor Lukac, to the sentence at the end of

23 second paragraph, it started with the word in your version, "Izolovani

24 slucaj." In English version it should be, "There have been instances."

25 Good. During the examination-in-chief, when this particular document was

1 produced by the Prosecution, on -- in transcript, on page 1671, line 19

2 and 20, the Prosecutor asked you, "Again, the next sentence speaks for

3 itself. Have you any idea what the phrase 'citizens have been isolated'

4 means?" Your answer was, "That meant that they were detained."

5 MR. PANTELIC: It is proper moment, Your Honours, to outline that

6 this line of questioning was actually with the manner taking something out

7 of context, because now I would ask -- I would kindly ask Professor Lukac

8 to read this particular sentence, only this, in his own language.

9 A. You mean "isolated"? "Persons who opened fire on our forces and

10 citizens were isolated."

11 MR. PANTELIC: It's just illustration, so in order to clarify this

12 particular issue, I was -- I'm in situation just to ask the witness to

13 actually inform us about the contents.

14 Q. So Professor Lukac, tell me, what is -- could we say that it is a

15 legitimate process from the point of view of your police experience or

16 given the fact that that was a war, that one party, no matter which

17 parties, is entitled to detain and to isolate persons who, allegedly,

18 opened fire or allegedly committed certain offences, in general terms?

19 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please?

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the Prosecution?

21 MR. DI FAZIO: That question strikes me as being a matter that's

22 fairly and squarely within the province of an international law expert, I

23 would have thought. If Mr. Pantelic wants to put to the witness that

24 certain factual matters required that civilians be isolated or detained,

25 all well and good, but that's not the way the question is framed. He says

1 it's -- he asks Mr. Lukac if it's a legitimate process from the point of

2 view of his police experience or given the fact that there was a war, that

3 the parties are entitled to detain and isolate persons. Now, how can

4 Mr. Lukac comment on whether or not it is a legitimate process? That is a

5 matter that surely we -- that, rather, the Chamber is charged with

6 deciding. So whether he thinks it is a legitimate process or not is

7 really not particularly relevant, I submit.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because this is -- the fact that he mentioned

9 "in a situation of war," if that wasn't there, if it was just general,

10 then it would have been a proper question.

11 Mr. Pantelic, you have understood the objection of the

12 Prosecution, which is legitimate?

13 MR. PANTELIC:

14 Q. Professor Lukac, tell me, do you have any knowledge, during your

15 detention in the detention premises within Bosanski Samac municipality,

16 were you -- were at that time with you certain citizens and persons that

17 you know before who were actually engaged in certain combat operations?

18 A. As far as I can remember the people who were detained with me,

19 except for the policeman, legal policemen of the Ministry of the Interior

20 of Bosnia-Herzegovina who were guarding the facility of the police station

21 in Bosanski Samac that night, and who, under the conditions of the attack

22 of the Serb forces against that facility, responded with fire against the

23 attackers, if we can treat it in that context, I agree with that.

24 However, I have to tell you one more thing. In that group, there

25 were detained persons who had set out to work that morning, who had

1 nothing to do with the war. The war started with this attack. Before

2 that, there was no war at all.

3 MR. PANTELIC: You can take this exhibit. My dear friend just

4 mentioned ...

5 Q. So do you know what the date was actually, the April 18?

6 Actually, 17 -- 17th of April. Do you know what is the day in the week it

7 was?

8 A. Friday.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. PANTELIC: But as I said, Your Honours, the purpose of my

11 questioning was to outline the Prosecutor took out of context from one

12 sentence, you know, some words. And then in further proceedings, we shall

13 be in problem, because we are spending a time to clarify these thing. So

14 kindly ask my colleagues when in chief they want to make certain

15 examination, that it's a fair approach to have precise --

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, you have no right to be addressing

17 anybody at this time. Your role is to cross-examine the witness. I'm

18 sure you feel for the witness, who has been here for quite some time.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please go ahead with your cross-examination.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely, Your Honour.

22 Q. Another question, Professor Lukac. Could we agree that the

23 special forces of state security service of Bosnia and Herzegovina came in

24 Bosanski Samac in December 1991?

25 A. We cannot agree.

1 Q. Can we agree, Professor Lukac, that in the Office of Prosecutor,

2 on March 29, 1995, you said that the units of -- the special units of

3 state security service, in December 1991, that these units were in

4 Sarajevo and that they were at Samac -- in Samac in every 15 days? And

5 then you're speaking about a certain person, Ragib Hodzic, who still

6 works, and then it's deleted, and then you mention Safet Becirevic,

7 Muslim, who stayed until 4th of April in Bosanski Samac, and you said that

8 he -- actually, "Becirevic all messed up in Bosanski Samac." Is that

9 correct that you said that in your statement on 29 March of 1995 in the

10 Office of Prosecutor?

11 A. You did not allow me to tell you a few minutes ago why I could not

12 agree with you. This is not a special unit. This is a joint unit of the

13 Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which according to the

14 decision of the Minister of the Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina, came on

15 the 2nd of December to Bosanski Samac.

16 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, and could counsel please

18 not speak before the interpretation finishes.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Excuse me. Excuse me, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You are overlapping the interpretation of the

21 witness's answer because, again, your earphone is somewhere else.

22 MR. PANTELIC: I will do my best.

23 Q. In fact, Professor, Lukac, I'm just referring now to your

24 statement in the Office of Prosecutor in March -- on March 29, 1995. So

25 we are not speaking about the units. You explained that in your

1 examination-in-chief. Everything is clear from point of view of your

2 position, of course. But now I ask you specifically: Did you say that or

3 not? Did you say that the units, special units of state security service,

4 in December, were in Bosanski Samac? Yes or no? Very simple, and let's

5 go on.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, we have two problems. First of all,

7 with your question. Since you have the statement from which you are

8 quoting, I'm not sure whether you're quoting directly what he said. Why

9 don't you give it to him? Then he can read that passage and then you can

10 ask.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Excellent idea.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Secondly, because you are keeping your

13 earphones around your neck, it is causing a vibration when you are

14 speaking, so it is interfering with the system. So either you put them on

15 your head or you take them off altogether.

16 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Pantelic, can you please highlight that

17 portion?

18 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. It's already done. Thank you.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: I wonder -- I don't have -- read the B/C/S. I

20 wonder if Mr. Pantelic could let me know where in the English it might

21 appear.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Which paragraph in the English version?

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Approximately. I can find it quickly, but ...

24 MR. PANTELIC: There is no pages in B/C/S version. It's just year

25 and number.

1 Q. Can you read the year and number which is on the top?

2 MR. DI FAZIO: That doesn't help me, because --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: No. Maybe let him read it slowly and then the

4 interpreters --

5 MR. DI FAZIO: I might be able to pick it up that way.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: -- Then you will be able to find -- yes.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

8 MR. PANTELIC:

9 Q. Just read the beginning of this highlighted page -- parts.

10 A. "The special purpose units of the SDB: December 1991. There was

11 such an unit, but only in Sarajevo. The units had shifts every 15 days.

12 These units were in Bosanski Samac until the 4th of April."

13 It is obvious that this was not translated properly, because this

14 text is meaningless.

15 MR. PANTELIC: Mr. Usher, can I have my copy, please?

16 Q. That would be a matter for the determination before this Trial

17 Chamber, whether it's good translation or not, and what is the impact of

18 the case. Could we agree, Professor Lukac, that the fact of common

19 knowledge is that the Axis power committed the most horrific crimes

20 against humanity during Second World War?

21 JUDGE MUMBA: What has that got to do with this case?

22 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, a lot has to do because I'm now

23 establishing the line of the independent state of Croatia and the certain

24 Croat units around the Bosanski Samac, and also I'm speaking about the

25 personal credibility of this witness, his personal commitment to certain

1 ideas, and I think that I'm entitled to know what are his personal idea

2 towards the general facts.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. There is a way of establishing that, but not

4 certainly that question. He won't answer that question.

5 MR. PANTELIC: Good. Thank you. I will rephrase.

6 Q. We can agree, can we not, Professor Lukac, that - I'm using your

7 formulations and your words - that independent state of Croatia, with its

8 forces called Ustasha - again I'm using your words - being a military unit

9 of this state, official, regular military units of this state, and at the

10 same time were coalition partner - your words - with Germany and Italy,

11 were involved in Russian front? Agree or disagree?

12 A. I agree.

13 Q. Another question: Do you agree with me if I say that in this

14 regime, in independent state of Croatia, horrific crimes against humanity

15 were committed against Serbs and Jews in the concentration camp of

16 Jasenovac? Agree or disagree?

17 A. I agree.

18 Q. Do you agree with me if I say that the most popular song after the

19 independence of Croatia was "Danke Deutschland," "Thank you, Germany"?

20 Agree or disagree?

21 A. I don't know about that, whether that was the most popular song.

22 Q. Thank you. Another question: Do you agree with me that the

23 colour of the uniform of SS special troops, Nazi troops, were black, yes

24 or no?

25 A. Possibly.

1 Q. Do you agree with me, Professor Lukac, that the uniform of Italian

2 fascists were black, yes or no?

3 A. Possibly of one part. I don't know what were all the uniforms of

4 the Italian military.

5 Q. Do you agree with me, Professor Lukac, that you wore dark grey

6 shirt and black suit on the first day of your testimony before this Court,

7 yes or no? Dark grey shirt, dark grey shirt?

8 A. I agree, but you're also in black robes, aren't you?

9 JUDGE MUMBA: What's the implication of that, Mr. Pantelic? What

10 has the dress of the witness got to do with this case? Or may we know

11 what colours are prohibited?

12 MR. PANTELIC: Because I have, Your Honour, another question, the

13 end question of this particular line of examination, and then you will

14 hear the answer.

15 Q. Professor Lukac, in order to speed up proceedings, could you read

16 a part of your statement from March 29, 1995? It's B/C/S version

17 00642722? It's highlighted here in the middle.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honour please?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm not actually objecting to this question that's

21 just been phrased. I want to raise something regarding the series of

22 questions that preceded it. There were a number of questions regarding

23 matters of history, of -- and I submit, unfathomable relevance to these

24 proceedings, completely unfathomable. The only possible relevance I can

25 see - and one is desperately looking for relevance - is that they were

1 somehow directed to establishing that this witness's sympathies lie with

2 fascists or that he's a Nazi or something like that.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: That's why I asked Mr. Pantelic. That's why I asked

4 him.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: So we have the series of questions and then we

6 don't get to the crunch point.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: He is saying he'll get to the crunch point with the

8 next question.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Perhaps I'm premature in my objections.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I did ask that, and I asked why the fact that

11 the witness was in grey and black mattered.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well, I'll withdraw my objection at this stage

13 and I will respectfully ask Mr. Pantelic to make things clear, the purpose

14 of all of those questions.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Trial Chamber is also interested in

16 clarity and relevance as well.

17 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely, Your Honours. Absolutely, Your

18 Honours. As my learned friend said, he's premature to --

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Let's go ahead. Can the witness read aloud the

20 paragraph referred to so that we can get the translation?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A name is deleted here in this text,

22 and then it says, "Said when I was leaving that he is ashamed of the fact

23 that he's a Serb. If I were to return to Bosanski Samac, he would be the

24 only man who would try to protect me."

25 MR. PANTELIC:

1 Q. Not -- translation is not correct, because that's a problem with

2 maybe you weren't so clear so our dear friends from the interpreters' unit

3 didn't follow you. Can I read this again? Because you saw -- I will read

4 it. You said, "If I were to return to Bosanski Samac, he would be the

5 only man whom I would try to protect."

6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We apologise but we did not

7 hear it read out clearly the first time.

8 MR. PANTELIC:

9 Q. So now, Professor Lukac, my understanding is, after reading this

10 part of your statement, that you could be in situation to be back in

11 Bosanski Samac, then you will proceed with the revenge, and then only this

12 man would be a man that you will protect at that time in the course of

13 revenge against Serbs. Am I right or I am wrong?

14 A. You're not right at all.

15 Q. Can I stop this line, because we are short with time? I am not

16 right.

17 He said I am not right.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Of course, because you're putting in some extraneous

19 interpretation from the sentence.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: So please proceed.

22 MR. PANTELIC:

23 Q. Tell me, Professor Lukac, would you agree or disagree with the

24 statement of your colleague, Professor Robert Donia, who was a witness of

25 Prosecutor in this case, when he said the following? I mean the question

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1 is very simple, agree or disagree, and then we will go on. Professor

2 Donia, expert witness in this trial, Prosecutor expert witness, said:

3 "The German and Italian occupiers installed a regime in Zagreb which

4 consisted of extreme right-wing Croatian nationalists, relatively few in

5 number, but it gave them substantial powers of administration, and then

6 they gave this group, known as Ustasha, most of Croatia and virtually all

7 of Bosnia-Herzegovina to rule over, and they formed the so-called

8 independent state of Croatia. It was, in fact, in no way independent. It

9 was totally dependent on German authority in particular, but it carried

10 the name of independent state of Croatia and immediately set out to

11 propagate violence against various groups in the territory under its

12 control, but principally against Serbs.

13 There was a systematic campaign by the Ustasha, which had three

14 prongs to it, if you will, to expel Serbs, to kill Serbs, and to convert

15 Serbs to Catholicism. The Ustasha established concentration camps. They

16 exterminated the vast majority of the Jews living in territories under

17 their control, and many thousands of Serbs, probably at least 100.000 at

18 one camp alone. And also attacked these Croats who opposed their

19 policies, and I should also add Romany, gypsies." Do you agree or

20 disagree with the assumption of Professor Donia?

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Before the witness answers, could we have the page

22 number of the text or the transcript for the actual quote, please?

23 MR. PANTELIC: It is page 1048, line 16, and then it goes to page

24 1049 until the line 8. Transcript of 11th of September.

25 Q. So Professor Lukac, agree or disagree?

1 A. With most of the things said in that text, yes.

2 JUDGE SINGH: I'm sorry, not with most of the things said, with

3 what's been read out just now?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That -- what was read out in

5 the text, the assessments made in that text.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Any more questions?

7 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, just two.

8 Q. Professor Lukac, being a policeman, in your free time, you like to

9 look police movies, crime movies?

10 A. I haven't much time for that.

11 Q. Did you see, by chance, a movie The Godfather?

12 A. Yes, I did, Godfather I, II, and III.

13 Q. It's a good movie.

14 A. Agree.

15 Q. The name Don Corleone rings your bells, means something to you?

16 A. It doesn't mean anything to me, but I know who the person was.

17 Q. Are you aware of the fact that in -- I think it was July or was

18 these months - there was a series of articles in Federation paper,

19 newspaper called Valter about you - just a moment - about you with the

20 title "Don Dragan Corleone." Are you aware or not?

21 A. Yes, I am. I also know --

22 Q. Thank you.

23 A. -- who wrote the text and why.

24 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. I have no further questions. Thank

25 you, Your Honours. I think that there is some kind of tape here to see.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the Prosecutor.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you very much.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, Mr. Pantelic says he has no further

4 questions, but we haven't got to the crunch yet with all those questions

5 that dealt with what this witness wore, whether he wears black, whether he

6 knows of Croatian units fighting on the Russian front, and all of --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: -- questions.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prosecutor, you don't have to worry about that.

10 All those questions are of no consequence. It was a waste of time.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, it was. It was, but --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if that's the position, I won't take any

14 time.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That was a waste of time.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: But it is, of course, a little unfair to Mr. Lukac,

17 because it's all put to him and no one knows the purpose of it and he

18 can't defend himself.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because we have different views of what

20 cross-examination is all about.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well. I'll --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: That's another problem.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll -- I won't pursue the matter any further, if

24 Your Honours please.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination?

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Just a few questions.

2 Re-examined by Mr. di Fazio:

3 Q. Mr. Lukac --

4 JUDGE SINGH: Sorry. Just before you do that, can you just

5 indicate in respect of which accused person you're re-examining?

6 MR. DI FAZIO: I was about to do that, if Your Honour pleases.

7 Q. Mr. Lukac, on Thursday the 27th of last week, you were being asked

8 questions by Mr. Pisarevic, and he asked you whether you would agree that

9 in the former Yugoslavia, the chief of the public security station was

10 mostly a political job and not a professional one, and you agreed with

11 that. I've got two questions in relation to that.

12 Firstly, the chief of the public security station is also, in

13 effect, the chief of police. Is that -- am I correct in that?

14 A. In a certain way, you are right.

15 Q. And secondly, the political aspect to the position, does that mean

16 that there is no professional ability or -- there is no professional

17 requirement for the position, or is it the case that some professional

18 experience as a policeman is also required for such a position?

19 A. Well, police experience was not essential for that post.

20 Q. Also on that day, you were being asked questions by Mr. Pisarevic

21 regarding your -- regarding a job application that you'd made and the

22 issue of whether or not Mr. Simo Zaric was responsible for passing on

23 information regarding the political background of your uncles and a

24 curriculum vitae that was associated with that issue, and you were asked

25 questions about whether or not Mr. Simo Zaric had anything to do with that

1 job application and with passing on details about yourself.

2 In your answer to one of Mr. Pisarevic's questions, you said that

3 Mr. Simo Zaric was invited to your office by yourself and had a

4 conversation with you and confirmed that certain checks had been done on

5 you and sent to a republican secretary. What exactly did he say in that

6 conversation, to the best of your ability, to the best of your memory?

7 A. It is right that I spoke with him on this subject after I learnt

8 that these checks were carried out and sent to the Republic Ministry of

9 the Interior, and then he said that that was true, that the checks were

10 carried out and that what was mentioned here had been done. So that means

11 that he was aware of that.

12 I would like to say that this fact, within the context in

13 question, is not very important.

14 Q. On the following day, Friday the 28th, you were still being

15 questioned by Mr. Pisarevic, and you were being asked about disturbances

16 in Bosanski Samac, and he referred you to an incident involving the

17 shooting of a Serb man in a boat on the river. Her Honour Judge Williams

18 asked you whether that was on the Croatian side of the river. You

19 agreed.

20 In those circumstances, who would have been responsible for the

21 investigation into that incident, Bosanski Samac authorities or Croatian

22 authorities?

23 A. The authorities of the Republic of Croatia.

24 Q. Still on the same day and still questioning by Mr. Pisarevic, you

25 were asked if you had given 25 automatic rifles to ethnic Croat

1 policemen. You agreed, and you said that they were -- those policemen

2 were admitted into the police reserve in order to adjust ethnic

3 proportions because there weren't enough Croat members of that reserve

4 police force and ethnic proportionality was required by law.

5 My question is: What sort of proportions existed before you

6 admitted -- you admitted the police into that reserve, the Croat policemen

7 into that reserve? In other words, was there a significant imbalance or

8 not?

9 A. Well, the composition of the reserve police in any of these

10 stations had to reflect the ethnic composition of the population in the

11 area of the municipality of the local communities that the municipality

12 covered, and what I had done was, in fact, related to that need. I did it

13 before the attack, the Serb attack on Bosanski Samac. It was on a

14 Thursday. And with -- weapons and uniforms were issued by a person of

15 Serb nationality who worked at that station.

16 This was not done in secret or with any intention, any negative

17 intention. It was done on the basis of regular procedure.

18 Q. You were also asked another question by Mr. Pisarevic regarding

19 the ethnic composition of the 4th Detachment. He asked you this question

20 and you provided this answer:

21 Q. Do you agree with me that the 4th Detachment

22 consisted of Serbs, Muslims, Croats, and members of

23 other national and ethnic groups?

24 And your answer was:

25 A. In part.

1 Well, what sort of parts are we talking about here? Can you tell

2 the Chamber? Do you have any idea?

3 A. Well, I said "in part" because if the 4th Detachment had or -- or

4 as it appears to be a JNA unit of multi-ethnic composition, it had to

5 reflect the ethnic composition of the area in which it was formed, and I

6 said that in the 4th Detachment, there were between 70 and 80 per cent of

7 the soldiers of Serb ethnicity. And this is not the criteria of

8 underlying multi-ethnic unit. Mr. Pisarevic spoke about the composition

9 in the command of the 4th Detachment. He said that the commander was of

10 Serb national. His deputy, also security matters assistant also of Serb

11 ethnicity. There was only one Bosniak who was involved in operative

12 work.

13 And I think that this makes the situation very clear. If it were

14 a unit with such a percentage, why wasn't the commander of the unit a

15 Bosniak or a Croat?

16 Q. Mr. Pisarevic asked you some questions regarding an interview that

17 you had after you'd been arrested in the -- I think it was in the SUP

18 building, and it was conducted by Mr. Vladimir Sarkanovic. Do you recall

19 him asking you questions about that?

20 A. I remember.

21 Q. He asked you if you were forced to make the statement, and you

22 said, "No, Mr. Sarkanovic was very fair," and he asked you if

23 Mr. Sarkanovic recorded everything you said, and you said, "In view of the

24 state that I was in, I cannot say whether it was complete and whether it

25 was recorded faithfully and whether it was all there." What influence, if

1 any, did the state you were in have on what you said, or your recollection

2 now of what you said back then?

3 A. Well, I want to say that -- to everyone here that I was in such a

4 condition that I simply -- and this was quite understandable, having been

5 beaten and having experienced psychological shock, and if I were not in a

6 position to think whether all I had said was incorporated in the report,

7 and at that moment, this all seemed very irrelevant to me.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, before I leave this

9 particular topic on the issue of this interview with Mr. Sarkanovic, there

10 is one matter that I should raise, and that's this: the actual interview

11 itself. That document has been, as I understand it, provided to the

12 Defence, disclosed to the Defence in English -- translation in English

13 and --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: You mean what Mr. Sarkanovic recorded?

15 MR. DI FAZIO: That's right, the interview with Mr. Sarkanovic.

16 It wasn't put to this witness. He wasn't asked anything about the content

17 of that interview. Now, I'm happy to leave the topic there, but I don't

18 want the situation to arise at a later point where the Defence counsel try

19 to introduce the document, through some other witness or in some other

20 circumstance, because that would then deprive Mr. Lukac the opportunity of

21 commenting on the contents of it. So I'm happy to leave the topic now in

22 terms of re-examination on the understanding that that's the end of the

23 matter and there will be no attempt by Defence counsel to produce it into

24 evidence. If Defence counsel can indicate that that is so, then the

25 matter will be left alone. If they indicate that they intend to produce

1 it later in evidence, then it's a matter that I need to examine on now

2 because it would be unfair.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: We can take care of it right away. That was Mr. --

4 MR. DI FAZIO: That was Mr. Pisarevic who asked questions on this

5 topic of this interview, but it was never handed to him to -- the

6 interview itself was never handed to Mr. Lukac. So that's the situation.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic? I'm sure he has understood the

8 matters raised by the Prosecution. Is it the intention of the Defence to

9 produce this particular document at a later stage?

10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, a little bit later.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Through which type of witness? Because this witness

12 is the maker, or allegedly, so he should be given the opportunity to deal

13 with its contents.

14 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. It is -- it relates to

15 that.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That's what I'm saying, that he should be

17 given the opportunity to deal with the contents of the document, because

18 it is alleged to be his statement. We wouldn't like an occasion to arise

19 where we have to recall the witness.

20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] [No interpretation].

21 JUDGE MUMBA: In our system, cross-examination for each witness

22 must be complete.

23 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] The witness will only speak about

24 the manner, how the statement was taken, but the other matters are not so

25 relevant, the situation in the security service station.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: The question is: Are you going to produce that

2 statement as part of the Defence evidence? Is it your intention to do

3 so?

4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. That is my intention.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That's what I'm telling you, that this is the

6 person who is alleged to have made that statement. He should be given an

7 opportunity to deal with the matters in that statement. You can't produce

8 it through any other witness when the witness who is alleged to have made

9 the statement is available. He has to be given the opportunity to deal

10 with the contents.

11 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't -- I could

12 not foresee what Mr. Lukac's answers would be. What I had at my disposal

13 when he was speaking was that the statement was such as it was, and was

14 provided under normal conditions.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The interpretation is already distorted. Let

16 me ask for the last time: Do you intend to produce that statement in

17 evidence?

18 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] [No interpretation].

19 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, we didn't hear the counsel.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: They didn't hear you. The interpreters didn't hear

21 your answer.

22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I will not use that statement as

23 an exhibit. I will not produce the statement as an exhibit.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: And you won't put the contents of that statement to

25 any other witness?

1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] No, I won't.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: So that -- okay, fine. That's on record,

3 Mr. Prosecutor. Proceed.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: That answers my question. Thank you. That answers

5 my question, and I have no further questions on that topic.

6 Q. You were asked by all counsel some questions on -- relating to the

7 content of your book, and in particular questions on "Bosanski Samac, Camp

8 Town" or "Detention Camp Town," I'm not precisely sure of the topic but I

9 think that identifies the book. You said that it was written in hospital,

10 when you were in hospital. What was the main focus of the book? What

11 were you primarily concerned with when you wrote it?

12 A. Well, I didn't write the book in hospital but when I was

13 discharged, immediately upon being released from the camp, and the main

14 reason for writing it was to record the events unfolding in that area at

15 the time I described in my book. I was basically guided by the knowledge

16 that what is not recorded does not exist.

17 Q. When you say "that area," can you give us -- can you give us a

18 little more precision? What area in particular?

19 A. That is the area of the municipality of Bosanski Samac, not the

20 present day municipality of Samac, the pre-war municipality of Bosanski

21 Samac.

22 Q. Do I take it from your answer that you were not focusing on

23 activities or events in adjoining municipalities?

24 A. I think that in this first book, this exclusively had to do with

25 events that took place in the municipality of Bosanski Samac.

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1 Q. You were asked today a number of questions regarding matters of

2 history, in particular the activities of the Ustasha during the Second

3 World War, and you commented on some of their more unpleasant activities

4 and essentially said that you agreed, and in particular, you agreed with

5 the assessment of Professor Donia. That assessment was read out to you by

6 Mr. Pantelic. What you weren't asked was whether or not you have

7 extremist, nationalist, Croatian sympathies or fascist sympathies of any

8 sort. Do you?

9 A. All the questions that the Defence put were an attempt to portray

10 me as a fascist idealogue in this courtroom, a Croatian nationalist and

11 criminal. I am not going to speak about what kind of an insult this is

12 for me and for any man this would be addressed to. However, I wish to say

13 before this Trial Chamber that I was never a fascist idealogue, nor did I

14 ever support fascism. I was never a Croat nationalist. I'm a normal

15 Croat, and I was never a criminal.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. No further questions.

17 Questioned by the Court:

18 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Lukac, I have just two very short questions

19 I'd like to ask you. Concerning your exchange, did you ever sign any type

20 of statement, or were you ever asked to sign any piece of paper, that you

21 were voluntarily leaving Bosanski Samac?

22 A. No.

23 JUDGE WILLIAMS: And the second question: Did you sign, or were

24 you ever asked to sign, any paper or papers concerning your property

25 rights in Bosanski Samac? In other words, title to your apartment,

1 personal property there, including the white car that we saw in the -- one

2 of the photographs?

3 A. No one ever asked me to do that, nor did I ever sign such a paper.

4 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: As a result of the answers from the witness from the

6 questions from the bench, is there any question from any Defence counsel?

7 As a result of the answers. Yes, Mr. Pisarevic?

8 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would

9 just like to put a few questions, and would I say first and foremost that

10 the incident that occurred on the Sava was not a problem of authority.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no. It's the questions related to the answers

12 from the questions from the bench only. You're finished your

13 cross-examination.

14 Re-cross-examined by Mr. Pisarevic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lukac, whose authority is it under when a

16 person who was wounded on a river lands at a river bank that belongs to

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

18 JUDGE MUMBA: That won't be allowed. It wasn't as a result of --

19 it didn't come from the questions put from the bench to the witness just

20 now.

21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Oh, the bench?

22 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation continues]... yes.

23 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Then I have no

24 questions.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecutor, any questions as a result of the

1 answers?

2 MR. DI FAZIO: No, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukac, for your evidence,

4 and thank you for your patience.

5 Yes, counsel?

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I waited for the end in

7 the belief that perhaps you may raise a question that we left for the end

8 of the examination of Mr. Lukac, and that is the video cassette. In the

9 meantime, I have provided the Prosecution with a copy of this video

10 cassette. I'm talking about the interview that we referred to during my

11 cross-examination of Mr. Lukac.

12 Yesterday, I handed over this video cassette to the Prosecution.

13 I also provided a transcript of that portion of the interview which lasts

14 eight minutes, both in the B/C/S language and in the English language. So

15 could the Prosecutor please say whether he would like to have the tape

16 viewed now. And then in line with what you said earlier on, we could have

17 the tape played now and refer to it, if I understood correctly what you

18 said when you said it.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I'm waiting for the interpretation. I'll ask

20 the Prosecution. Yes. There was that part.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: The position of the Prosecution is that we don't

22 want the tape played now nor indeed on any other occasion because we

23 object to its admission.

24 The -- I can't really add much more than what I initially said on

25 the topic when it was first raised. It's a video that was given to us

1 during the course of this witness's evidence. I haven't had an

2 opportunity of examining -- I'm not talking about the video itself, but

3 examining the circumstances in which it was made, getting any evidence in

4 relation to it, and most importantly of all, most importantly of all, I

5 haven't had an opportunity of being able to go to Mr. Lukac and say, "What

6 do you say about this video and what do you say about the contents of it?"

7 So that I could have dealt with the matter effectively.

8 From that point of view, the Prosecution has been prejudiced, and

9 in my submission, permanently prejudiced unless I'm given permission to go

10 and speak to Mr. Lukac about the contents of the video, and it's not

11 something that I seek to do.

12 So I say that the circumstances of the application to place it

13 into evidence as such, that the prejudice can't be removed and it should

14 not be admitted.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: But you have viewed this video?

16 MR. DI FAZIO: No. I haven't actually viewed the video, but I've

17 read through the transcript. And regardless of what's in the video, what

18 it depicts, it's not going to alter my attitude. I've seen the

19 transcript --

20 JUDGE MUMBA: The transcript.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: -- of it. I know what it deals with. I know it

22 deals with some controversy in Bosnia involving this witness and --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe if you were able to explain the basis of your

24 objection --

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, the basis of my objection --

1 JUDGE MUMBA: -- having looked at the transcript.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. The basis of my objection is that I -- yes, I

3 have been made aware of it; yes, I have been made aware of its contents by

4 virtue of the translation; but no, I can't adequately deal with it because

5 I don't have access to the witness. I can't go and speak to him, get

6 instructions from him, find out what his view about the events that are in

7 the video is, and so therefore the Prosecution cannot adequately deal with

8 the issues raised in the video.

9 I mean, they all go to issues of credibility, of course. I'm

10 certain I can assure the Chamber that from my reading of the translation,

11 and there's -- it's not got anything to do with the elements of the

12 indictment and so on. It's purely credibility issues. So --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: If the Prosecution were to be given an opportunity

14 to approach the witness after viewing the video, if it's important for you

15 to view, or with the transcript, you'd be better able --

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, we would be. I suppose I could ask him -- I

17 could go into the details of what's said in the videotape and be in a

18 position to present Mr. Lukac's views and comments on the content of it.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because we are trying to avoid a situation

20 where we have to recall a witness.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: That's right.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: -- as much as possible. So I'll put it this way: I

23 have to ask the witness to wait, and then you have to -- like this

24 afternoon, you will deal with that. You are given permission to contact,

25 to discuss with Mr. Lukac.

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: And then we can deal with it tomorrow morning.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: In the meantime, we can start another witness.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Do I take it that you mean interpose

6 Mr. Lukac and --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: -- just finish him quickly on this topic?

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: So that he is no longer detained. Since you are --

12 you said that you didn't have -- you needed an opportunity to speak to the

13 witness.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Yes. That would suit my purposes, and I

15 think it would take away any unfairness --

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes, which may appear --

17 MR. DI FAZIO: -- to the Prosecution.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: And the Defence -- since the Defence feels that it

19 is important for their case.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: So, counsel, that is understood?

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I fully concur with the proposal of

23 the President of the Trial Chamber. As a matter of fact, I wanted to ask

24 the Trial Chamber to allow the Prosecutor to be in contact with the

25 witness. I explain the reason why we submitted the tape so late, because

1 we got it so late, and that is why we wished to proceed in this manner,

2 because indeed, it is -- it is only the intention of the Defence to deal

3 with the credibility of this witness, nothing else.

4 I have to add one more word. As for Mr. Lukac as a victim, we

5 have no objections, and we have nothing to add, and we are not questioning

6 his status as a victim. However, in view of his position, especially his

7 current position, I think that the tape is of such importance that it

8 should indeed be viewed. Thank you.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber will decide after the matter has

10 been proceeded.

11 JUDGE SINGH: Can I just ask one or two questions, please, of

12 Mr. Lukic? You said earlier that this was a video show of a verdict.

13 MR. LUKIC: Lukic.

14 JUDGE SINGH: Yes. You said it was a video show of a verdict. Is

15 that right?

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No. No. I've been misinterpreted.

17 JUDGE SINGH: Yes. The point I want to ask you is, is this

18 witness featured in the show, in the video show, in the video interview?

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Judge Singh, Your Honour, this is a TV

20 programme, a panel discussion. There were a few people who were guests in

21 the studio on this talk show, including the witness.

22 As far as I understood it, these were high officials from the

23 police of the B and H Federation, and as far as I understood, the topic

24 that was discussed between the journalist and all the interviewees,

25 including Mr. Lukac, was the appointment to the post police commissioner

1 in the Federation. It was my understanding that Mr. Lukac had also been

2 proposed for that high position. Maybe I'm making a mistake.

3 During the last eight minutes, the journalist, who was the anchor

4 of this panel, talked to Mr. Lukac about some of these affairs, so to

5 speak, and that includes the verdict that I mentioned. So that is the

6 dialogue between the anchor, the journalist, and Mr. Lukac.

7 JUDGE SINGH: Thank you.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So, Mr. Lukac, you've understood that we have

9 another item which has to be dealt with, and because the Prosecution

10 needed time to deal with that item with you as their witness, and the

11 Trial Chamber has allowed that it be -- the Prosecution be allowed, we

12 will use the afternoon. Since we don't sit in the afternoon, the

13 Prosecution will deal with the matter as they see fit. Then you will

14 appear tomorrow morning. Even if we have another witness, we'll begin

15 with you so that we can complete it, and then you can be released.

16 Yes. So the usher can lead the witness out, and we can start with

17 the next witness.

18 [Witness stood down]

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Do Your Honours wish to hear submissions on the

20 Variant A and B document? My colleague Ms. Reidy is in a position to

21 address the Chamber on that issue. The submissions would be brief. Would

22 now be an appropriate moment to deal with it?

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Because we did put it off, didn't we?

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Before we start next witness?

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. And I think -- well, I'll let her deal with

2 that matter.

3 MS. REIDY: Your Honours, before I address the ID document number

4 3, the so-called Variant A, Variant B document, there were a number of

5 outstanding official translations for certain exhibits which have

6 currently been marked "P ters" which I can also produce to the Court now

7 before the witness comes in if the Court would like me to deal within that

8 manner. Would that be helpful for the Chamber?

9 I say this now because certainly in at least one case, one of the

10 documents is likely to be put to the incoming witness.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you may proceed.

13 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, during the testimony of Mr. Tihic, the

14 statute of the municipality of Bosanski Samac was entered into evidence as

15 Exhibit P7 ter, and I now have official extracts -- or official

16 translations of the extracts from that statute which were put to the

17 witness and which are recorded in the transcript.

18 I took the liberty of distributing it to my colleagues on the

19 Defence bench this morning, and I have with me copies which perhaps, when

20 the usher comes back, he could distribute those to the bench and to the

21 registry and the Senior Legal Officer.

22 Given that the usher is not here, maybe it now makes more sense to

23 wait until he comes back and deal with these matters at the end so Your

24 Honours --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no. The registry assistant can collect them.

1 Because I was thinking that we could deal with this and then after the

2 break start the witness.

3 MS. REIDY: That's absolutely fine. Okay.

4 Similarly with document P8 ter, which was the 1990 Official

5 Gazette of Bosanski Samac, and there were a number of decisions again

6 referred -- which the witness was questioned about and which are on the

7 transcript, and the Prosecution undertook to get official translations of

8 those extracts which -- which we have done, and that is -- that would be

9 Exhibit P8.

10 And finally, there was also Exhibit P18 ter, which was a list of

11 names of donors. Originally there was no official translation, as it was

12 primarily a list of names. But because there were additional headings and

13 some handwritten comments, official translations have been requested and

14 are now produced. So this is Exhibit P18 ter, and if -- and this is a

15 document which in fact the Defence I haven't given a copy to, but perhaps

16 the usher could --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can the usher assist and get the documents

18 from the Prosecution to give to the Defence counsel?

19 MS. REIDY: Your Honours --

20 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: If I may assist the Honourable Trial Chamber.

23 This -- I'm sorry. This document, which has been given as P18 ter, I

24 believe it's P18A ter. Is that right?

25 MS. REIDY: Yes. I believe that's correct. In fact, when I read

1 the title I said P18 ter. I think it's P18A ter.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: P18A ter.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because the "A" is there. Any others?

4 MS. REIDY: And, yes, finally, Your Honours, as the Bench is

5 aware, there has been an ongoing controversy with photos with or without

6 labels. This is Exhibit P12, which again is a bunch of -- 72

7 photographs. There is here a set, basically a replica of P12. It's the

8 same copy as, I believe, all members of the Bench have, which does not

9 have any indicator in the left-hand corner indicating what the photo is

10 of, and it was proposed that we would give this to the registry. I'm not

11 sure which is the best system to mark it, but then could be used for

12 witnesses, including the next witness, if either the Prosecution or the

13 Defence wish them to identify any particular image portrayed in the

14 exhibit.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Has the Defence seen that particular group of

16 photographs?

17 MS. REIDY: No, Your Honour. During the break, I can then --

18 perhaps the Registry can then take the opportunity --

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because it's important that they look at them,

20 they can see whether it's a replica of P18 or whatever the number was, or

21 the photographs, and then we can have that batch to the Registry

22 assistant, number it properly and then it can be used so that the

23 witnesses are not given any guidance by the labels.

24 MS. REIDY: Okay, Your Honour. That's fine. I'll do that with

25 the Defence during the break. Just to correct the record, I think I said

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1 P12, and I meant P14.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: We will go through the documents that have been

3 given so that we all have the correct numbering. And we also did

4 reorganise the document, the exhibit system, and I'll call upon the

5 registry assistant to give us the corrections so that we can all have

6 similar numbers so that when we are discussing exhibits, we are all

7 discussing one and the same document.

8 THE REGISTRAR: The English translation of the Statute of Bosanski

9 Samac shall be marked for the record as Prosecutor's Exhibit P7.

10 The English translation of the Official Gazette of Bosanski Samac

11 shall be marked for the record as P8.

12 And the English translation of the list of persons contributing to

13 a balance sheet shall be marked for the record as P18/A.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: And the other -- were there any other corrections?

15 THE REGISTRAR: The Defence exhibits of Blagoje Simic shall be

16 marked as the record as D1 or 2 or 3/1.

17 The Defence exhibits of Milan Simic shall be marked for the record

18 as D1, 2, et cetera /2.

19 The Defence exhibits of Miroslav Tadic shall be marked for the

20 record as D1 or 2 or 3/3.

21 And the Defence exhibits of Simo Zaric shall be marked for the

22 record as D1 or 2 or 3/4.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, because we have decided that we give the

24 numbers to the accused persons according to the way they appear on the

25 indictment, to lessen confusion. So that when a document is produced for

1 a particular accused person, it is used for that accused person only.

2 Thank you.

3 MS. REIDY: Your Honours?

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

5 MS. REIDY: Would you like me to continue now with the matter of

6 ID document -- or document ID 3, variant A or B or --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, yes, if we could complete that.

8 MS. REIDY: Your Honours, as I recall looking at the transcript,

9 there were two basic outstanding issues relating to this document. At the

10 beginning of day 3 of this case - and it's page 1096 through to 1101 -

11 there was some -- this document, which is on the record as ID 3, PID 3 --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: What was it about, can you tell us the topic?

13 MS. REIDY: It was a document known as variant A, variant B, and

14 it professes to be instructions from the SDS headquarters to the SDS staff

15 on the organisation and activity of the organs of the Serbian people.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

17 MS. REIDY: And it was a document which the Defence had objected

18 to being put into evidence. The witness at the time was Dr. Robert Donia,

19 and he was -- he had referred to the document in his expert report, and it

20 was footnoted. It was also an exhibit on the Prosecution exhibit list,

21 C5. One issue which arose was a confusion over the fact that there exists

22 a number of different versions of this particular document, and I cannot

23 begin to reconstruct the events of that day, but evidently what had

24 happened in the morning, when the witness had returned, the bench had

25 before them what -- the document which is marked ID number 3, and it had a

1 number on the front of it, which was number 100.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I recall that.

3 MS. REIDY: And the witness had his own copy with him, which had a

4 number 96. Now, I can clarify that with reference to our potential -- our

5 exhibit list from the 65 ter document, if the bench would like to be clear

6 as to what the confusion was, because I believe Your Honour Judge Williams

7 was concerned about that. However, if you think that's now been resolved

8 by clarification by the witness, I can just go on to the steps which have

9 been taken to authenticate that document.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe we need the clarification, because I'm

11 concerned that the Defence counsel, as well as the accused persons, should

12 be clear. Maybe we need the clarification.

13 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, if I may, I would suggest -- I was just

14 going to use the ELMO for one minute because -- as we all know we are

15 talking about certain documents, if I could approach the ELMO and just put

16 a document on it so I think it may --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: So that we all know what document we are dealing

18 with, yes.

19 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, the document which has now been placed --

20 this document which has now been placed on the ELMO is taken from the --

21 it's filed with the Court, and it's the Prosecutor's 65 ter potential

22 exhibit list. At C5, you will see a document which is called,

23 "Instructions for the organisation and activity of the organs of the

24 Serbian people."

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

1 MS. REIDY: That is what is now ID 3 on the record. In the two

2 columns here, you will see many different numbers and what are known as

3 ERN numbers, evidence reference numbers. There is number 100, number 96,

4 and number 93. These are all the same document, but I said different

5 versions of the same document.

6 On the day when Mr. Donia was here, the document -- there was one

7 document which was given up to the Chamber, which was this document here,

8 number 100, the first one, the English having the ERN E 0000026, and the

9 B/C/S version being 00184274. And I think the transcript reflects that,

10 that that is what the bench had and that is what the Prosecutor had. What

11 Mr. Donia had in front of him - and I think he had brought with him - was

12 one of the other documents, as all of these had been disclosed to him and

13 over the course of time had been disclosed to Defence. And it was the

14 document which is fourth on the list down, I think, 00359936, and as the

15 -- and the B/C/S version was 00252738.

16 Now, Mr. Singh -- Your Honour Judge Singh also suggested that if

17 we wanted to produce bundles of these documents, we could. If it's of

18 assistance to the Chamber, we have copies of all of these documents here,

19 which are available either for inspection or to be added to ID document 3,

20 if the Chamber wishes to have a record of each of the different

21 documents.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: What you're saying is that although they are

23 differently numbered, they are one and the same documents, the contents

24 are the same?

25 MS. REIDY: Exactly, Your Honour, and to show, this -- what is now

1 on the ELMO, I believe, is what the Chamber had in front of it.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

3 MS. REIDY: That's the English, and this is the B/C/S version.

4 What the witness had - and I said, all of this is on the exhibit

5 list and has been disclosed - is this document in English with the ERN

6 number here.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

8 MS. REIDY: And the B/C/S version, which is here, and 096

9 00252738.

10 So I think -- again, to clarify, so we all are speaking of the

11 same document. Unfortunately, as there were different versions, all

12 different versions have over time both been filed with the Court in

13 motions that were put to the -- in the course of these proceedings in

14 1999, and have been disclosed to the Defence. And, again, I don't know

15 now whether the Chamber would like to have here as part of ID document

16 number 3 all the various versions that were spoken about or whether they

17 are satisfied with the copy which the bench has, which is copy number

18 100.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE MUMBA: The bench is of the view that it's fine to have 100,

21 because it's -- as you have explained, it's all one and the same thing. I

22 just want to hear from the Defence, whether they have understood and they

23 have followed. Is there any matters being raised? I see none, so that is

24 fine. Yes, that's okay, because they haven't raised any --

25 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have just a second to confer, Madam

1 President, about that issue?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Maybe we will take our break while you're

3 conferring.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Actually, one second. Do you want to do that?

5 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, we would like to have a break now so

6 we can really confirm and review the transcript, because, honestly, we

7 didn't quite understood what was going on with this.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you so much.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Might I just raise one further issue? My colleague

11 Ms. Reidy will be in a position, and I think is now in a position also, to

12 address comments regarding the circumstances under which these documents

13 were found in Bosnia. So if the Chamber would like to hear about that,

14 can we know now so that she can marshal her submissions perhaps after the

15 break? In other words, who seized the documents, where they were seized,

16 when they were seized. And that goes to the question of authenticity.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think we can deal with that. We would like

18 to have that information after the break.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: We will take the break now and resume our

21 proceedings at 1130 hours.

22 --- Recess taken at 11.05 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We need more information, maybe, or have you

25 discussed with your colleagues?

1 MS. REIDY: I haven't heard from my colleagues as to what their

2 position is with respect to the confusion over 96 and 100.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I can see Mr. Zecevic on his feet.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. Before I address this

5 issue, may I have the floor for one second concerning one other issue

6 which just came to my attention?

7 As I walked out on the terrace, I have seen Mr. Lukac and

8 Mr. Izebegovic talking to each other. I am not, of course, alleging that

9 they are talking about the case, of course, because I was not able to or

10 was not interested in listening or eavesdropping what they were talking

11 about. But would it be appropriate for this Trial Chamber to instruct the

12 Prosecutor and the Witness and Victims Protection Unit that just as a

13 matter of precaution, they do not do that in the future.

14 And as well, we have some information that the Victims and

15 Witnesses Unit is discussing the merits of the case with the witnesses. I

16 would really strongly require the Trial Chamber to inform the Victims and

17 Witnesses Unit that they are not allowed to discuss the case with the

18 witnesses.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Who gave you that information?

20 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, we just heard from one of our colleagues who

21 was present at the Bel-Air Hotel just the day before yesterday.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Who is that?

23 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry?

24 JUDGE MUMBA: What is the name of your colleague who informed

25 you?

1 MR. ZECEVIC: Mr. Deyan Brashich.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Where is he?

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry?

4 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sorry. He's here. I haven't heard that name.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. Mr. Deyan Brashich told us he overheard a

6 conversation between the Victims and Witnesses Unit and the witness

7 Mr. Lukac.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Let me deal with the first item first.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: There are standing instructions in this Tribunal,

11 and I'm sure the Prosecution know that. The witnesses should always be

12 separated before and after giving evidence. I don't know the

13 circumstances which allege the previous witness to meet the prospective

14 next witness, but please, I ask the Prosecution to make sure that this

15 doesn't happen again. I will give the instructions to the Victims and

16 Witnesses Unit, because they're the ones who look after them, actually,

17 after they've give evidence and before they come into Court, to see to it

18 that doesn't happen.

19 And then for the second matter where the Victims and Witnesses

20 Unit discussed the merits of the case with the witness, maybe I can hear

21 from counsel who should be a direct -- who should have direct

22 information.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: Well --

24 JUDGE MUMBA: The counsel you mentioned, the one who informed

25 you. Yes.

1 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, Mr. Brashich is in the audience. He's

2 not --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I thought you are calling him.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: He's not in the courtroom.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Is he a lawyer?

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry? Yes. He's a lawyer in the Krajisnik case,

7 yes.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe what I can do offhand is to ask you,

9 Mr. Pisarevic, who has raised it in these proceedings --

10 MR. ZECEVIC: Mr. Zecevic. I'm sorry. My name is Zecevic.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I'm sorry, Mr. Zecevic. Since you have raised

12 it in these proceedings to get a written statement, because it's better to

13 investigate it when it's on paper.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you so much, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: And then it will be investigated by the Victims and

16 Witnesses Unit.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: I will do that.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Because in the past we've had similar reports, and

19 when the are investigations are conducted, we reach a dead end. We don't

20 identify who --

21 MR. ZECEVIC: I just raise this because I saw with my own eyes --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: -- the two witnesses were talking to each other.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Were discussing, yes.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you so much. May I address the issue which I

1 was called for?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: On the documents, yes.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. Your Honours, at this moment I am speaking on

4 behalf of all defence. At this moment, we really don't know what is the

5 position of the Prosecutor. There are three questions.

6 First question is that Dr. Robert Donia, when he was referring to

7 this document, he had actually or, in fact, he had a different document

8 which is not produced as one of these three, because if you -- if I

9 correctly -- and I will try to bring your memory to that.

10 Mr. Donia stated in his -- I have here the transcript, but if you

11 want me, I can read that. He stated that he got this document from a

12 newspaper magazine while he was checking the archives in Sarajevo.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, yes.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: He copied that document, and he stated clearly that

15 that document didn't have any number on it.

16 So Mr. Robert Donia said he has in his possession the copy of the

17 document back home in the United States, so this document was not produced

18 or disclosed to the Defence.

19 The second question is: There are three documents which appear to

20 be similar but there are some notes in different ones. One is number 93,

21 the second is number 96, and the last one is number 100, and these

22 documents do appear to be identical as a printed matter, but each of them

23 has different comments done by who knows? That is the second issue.

24 The third issue is that what we received from the Registrar, a

25 list of Prosecution exhibits, under ID 3, it says here, in the brackets,

1 "Copy 100." And this is referring to Robert Donia's statement. And as I

2 said before, Robert Donia was not referring to that particular document.

3 So in order to assist the Trial Chamber, I would first like the

4 Prosecution's position on this particular document which Dr. Donia was

5 referring to as the first thing, and then whether the Prosecutor --

6 Prosecution office would like to introduce all three copies of these

7 documents into the evidence or just one. If they want only one, then we

8 should focus on that particular one and forget the -- let's say 93 and

9 96. Thank you, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: I think the parties will deal with that, yes,

11 during, let's say, the afternoon and another time, and I would rather we

12 proceed with the witness who is here. So that matter of the documents is

13 not closed.

14 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I understand that the issue about 96, 100

15 et cetera, those which have been raised by my colleague, you wish us to

16 address inter partes outside of this Chamber and come back to you. Before

17 the break, you did indicate that you would like to hear information I have

18 about the history of this document within the OTP. Do you still wish me

19 to do that or again --

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, if you can be quite brief, the history of the

21 same document.

22 MS. REIDY: Yes, the history of the same document. And in this

23 context, I'm not going to refer at all to the first time that Mr. Donia

24 saw this document, which is something not in the possession of the OTP.

25 This specific document has been admitted twice into evidence in

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1 hearings before this Tribunal in the Celibici case and in the Jelesic

2 case.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Which document is this?

4 MS. REIDY: Sorry, document ID 3.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: It's the same one, the instructions to the --

6 MS. REIDY: "Instructions on the organisation of the activity of

7 the organs of the Serbian people."

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

9 MS. REIDY: A copy of that was produced into evidence, as I said,

10 in the case in Celibici. In fact, that was produced by the Defence. And

11 then a copy was produced in Jelesic as well by the Prosecution, both times

12 admitted on the record into evidence.

13 JUDGE SINGH: Did they have a number?

14 MS. REIDY: They did have a number. The one entered into evidence

15 in Celebici was document -- which at the time, I believe, was marked as

16 Defence Exhibit 2/3, and it had the number, again 104, and an ERN, just

17 for the record, 00606884. And I believe the one that was entered into

18 evidence in the Jelesic case was one which was 101/3, and it is ERN

19 00847302, and that ERN corresponds to the B/C/S version of the document.

20 During that trial, in particular one of the investigators was

21 called to give evidence to explain the history of this document and how

22 many different copies exist. We have -- or the OTP has, in fact, in its

23 possession 14 copies of this document or from 14 different sources. Of

24 those 14 copies, there are, I believe, to be six different versions, one

25 with the number 93, one with the number 96, one with the number 100, one

1 with the number 101/3, and one with the number 104 on it. I don't want to

2 give evidence here from counsel but --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. Just explain the history.

4 MS. REIDY: Mr. Donia has already explained his belief as to why

5 there are different numbers on the document. Those were seized as I said

6 -- well, either seized or given to the OTP office from a variety of

7 different sources, many of them AID sources from the federation of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

9 If the Tribunal wishes, any of the investigators involved in those

10 seizures or received the documents could come to testify to the seizure or

11 the receipt by the OTP of those documents. However, just to advise the

12 Chamber, on the 11th of September, when this first arose, we served on the

13 Defence three documents. Those documents, we believe, establish the

14 authenticity and the existence of this variant A, variant B document. The

15 Defence -- I was instructed from Defence that Mr. Pantelic was the person

16 to deal with, and he spoke for all of them. He indicated the documents,

17 in particular one which has Mr. Karadzic referring to this document, that

18 he was -- this would satisfy him as to the authenticity of document ID 3.

19 However, he wants to make his own investigations on this document, and I

20 am led to believe by him that, subject to his investigations, Defence

21 would then withdraw their objection to the admissibility of the document,

22 at least from the Defence side.

23 I said that we have taken steps with Defence to clarify the

24 authenticity of this document, and now Mr. Pantelic I believe is going to

25 come back to me after his investigation to see whether or not he is -- he

1 said he's minded to withdraw the objection, but it's not clear yet. But

2 secondly, if the Chamber itself now has concerns about this document,

3 because there are so many versions of it --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Would the speaker please slow down.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you please slow down? The interpreters have a

6 problem catching up.

7 MS. REIDY: I said if the Chamber itself has concerns about the

8 authenticity of this document before it would admit it into evidence, we

9 would also be in a position to call investigators who were present at

10 seizures or who received this document and who could testify, to their

11 best ability, to the authenticity of these documents, including the ones

12 which we have put into the Chamber and sought to introduce into evidence.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Any questions?

14 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, you will discuss whatever you have to

16 discuss with your colleagues, after what Mr. Zecevic said, and then after

17 that, then we can have whether the objection is still maintained or not.

18 MR. PANTELIC: This is correct.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: A different matter?

20 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, a little bit different matter. I would like

21 to say that my learned colleague from the Prosecutor bench didn't

22 interpret my words in a proper way. So just to say that. And we shall

23 discuss that. I mean, I didn't say that. I said we shall see once we

24 shall have a precise report from the Prosecutor, where, when and by whom

25 these documents were seized. Up to now, we don't have this report. And

1 then we shall see what we have to investigate further. So that was my

2 position. Thank you so much.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

4 JUDGE SINGH: Ms. Reidy, have you received the original photocopy

5 which appeared in the paper, Slobodan Bosna, Free Bosnia, from Dr. Donia?

6 MS. REIDY: No, Your Honour, we haven't received it yet. And from

7 re-reading the transcript I am aware that Your Honours have requested it,

8 and we are in the process of acquiring it, but we don't have it yet.

9 JUDGE SINGH: Yes. And you just heard the request from

10 Mr. Pantelic. You said that you obtained these five or six documents from

11 different sources and you're able to provide witnesses from where they

12 collected these documents. Are these witnesses on record at the moment or

13 are they new witnesses?

14 MS. REIDY: No, Your Honour. If you mean are they on our 65 ter

15 witness list, no, Your Honour, because we didn't foresee that we would

16 have to call them to the authenticity of this document. However, now that

17 it's been raised as a live issue before the Court, if that is one way of

18 resolving the matter, we are in a position to call those witnesses.

19 And again, just to clarify - I think this is a matter I can deal

20 with my colleague - he has been advised exactly of the circumstances and

21 procedure of the other document, twice, in fact, and that was one on which

22 occasion he said to me, "That's no problem now. I will make my own

23 investigation." But I'm quite happy, at the start of the proceedings, if

24 the Court were to remind him or to reiterate the nature of when these

25 documents were seized so he can make his investigations.

1 JUDGE SINGH: Well, to expedite matters, perhaps it would make

2 some sense if the Prosecution made a summary of the -- whatever statements

3 you may get from these witnesses who collected these documents and give

4 the summary to the Defence counsel so that they can then have a look at

5 this summary and then either agree or disagree to the admission of these

6 documents. That will expedite matters.

7 MS. REIDY: Certainly, Your Honour. That's an undertaking the

8 Prosecution can give.

9 And just to inform Your Honour, I'm led to believe from my

10 colleague that the document from Slobodna Bosna is in fact just arriving

11 in hand, so we may be able to produce it for you tomorrow morning.

12 JUDGE SINGH: Thank you.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, if I may have the floor.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: I don't know whether I was correctly understood.

16 What I wanted to raise as a primary objection was that could the OTP state

17 very clearly which document out of these four that we are dealing with in

18 this case, or 14, as they have them, they would like admitted as the

19 evidence. And then, only then, we can discuss about that document. So we

20 can concentrate on one document.

21 Therefore, I would like -- I would like to request from this Trial

22 Chamber to instruct the registrar to delete the copy 100, description of

23 Exhibits ID3, because this is not really correct concerning the

24 transcripts which we had on the day when Mr. Donia was --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no. It was numbered for identification only.

1 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, but it says in the description of exhibits that

2 it refers to the copy 100, with the number 100, and we still don't know

3 which copy are we dealing with.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: That is why I would like this to be stricken out.

6 Thank you so much.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: When the parties have discussed and identified which

8 document the Prosecution would like to have admitted and you have made

9 your stand, then we can come back to that and then we can make the

10 corrections you are seeking with the record.

11 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand fully. Thank you, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. We can proceed with the next witness. We

13 shall proceed with the next witness.

14 We seem to have a problem. The witness cannot be found. Can he

15 come? Yes, I did say he should be brought in.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Please make the solemn declaration.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please sit down.

21 WITNESS: IZET IZETBEGOVIC

22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes, the Prosecution, please.

24 Examined by Mr. Di Fazio:

25 Q. Your full name, please.

1 A. Izet Izetbegovic.

2 Q. How old have you, Mr. Izetbegovic?

3 A. I am 65.

4 Q. And have you lived in Bosnia for most of your life?

5 A. Yes, for the most part.

6 Q. How do you describe your ethnic background?

7 A. I'm a Bosniak, before that a Muslim for a short period of time,

8 before that I was undecided, and today I am a Bosniak.

9 Q. Are you married?

10 A. Yes, I am.

11 Q. Do you have children?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. How many children?

14 A. Two children.

15 Q. How long has your family, and by that I mean going back some

16 generations, how long has your family lived in Bosnia?

17 A. Well, for quite some time. With the establishment of Samac, so to

18 speak.

19 Q. You were born in Bosanski Samac?

20 A. Yes, I was.

21 Q. What about your grandfather? Where was he born?

22 A. Also in Bosanski Samac.

23 Q. Did he hold any official positions in the town?

24 A. He was mayor of the town for a period of 26 years.

25 Q. What about beyond your grandfather, going back even further? Your

1 great-grandfather, did he have any connections with Bosanski Samac?

2 A. Yes, he did.

3 Q. Was he born there and lived there?

4 A. He was born in Posavina, because Samac is a fairly recent town.

5 We had a large estate before that stretched all the way to Pelagicevo,

6 called Zabar then, up to Gradacac, to Modrica, and then to Odzaci,

7 Sekovi. We had a very large estate, and it covered a large area. I

8 cannot really state accurately how large the estate was.

9 Q. Your family was fairly well off then in the -- in the area?

10 A. Yes. For that time, it was fairly well off. My grandfather had

11 enough money to build a river [sic] over -- across the Sava River. He

12 could have, but he died in the meantime and could not fulfil that aim. It

13 was a bridge.

14 Q. Thank you. Do you have a family home in Bosanski Samac?

15 A. Yes. That was my inheritance.

16 Q. Can you hear properly with the earphones?

17 A. I can hear very well. Thank you.

18 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you more about your family home. Were you

19 born in that home?

20 A. Yes, I was.

21 Q. How long has that family home been in your family, over what sort

22 of period of years?

23 A. It was built -- it was built earlier, but it was completed in

24 1906.

25 Q. And as far as you're aware, it is still standing in Bosanski

1 Samac?

2 A. Yes, of course.

3 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. di Fazio, I'd like to ask the witness just

4 for a little clarification.

5 Mr. Izetbegovic, you had said that, "I'm a Bosniak, before that a

6 Muslim for a short period of time, before that I was undecided, and today

7 I am a Bosniak."

8 I wonder whether you could clarify what you mean by "before that a

9 Muslim for a short period of time," and also then, "before that I was

10 undecided." That would be very helpful, I think. Thank you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, following World War II, as we

12 all know, all the nations had been recognised. The Serb, the Croats, the

13 Muslims had not been defined. I will not go into why this was so. They

14 were able to declare themselves as Serbs or Croats and the others not.

15 There was also a possibility to state that you were undecided.

16 This lasted for quite some time, and afterwards, one could declare

17 oneself a Yugoslav and some opted for this. It would have been the best

18 for all of us if everyone had opted in that manner, not only the Bosniaks

19 but everyone else.

20 I don't remember having declared myself as a Yugoslav. Sometimes

21 it was essential. We had to do that. No one forced me. It was just a

22 question of our own personal assessment. It was difficult to be promoted

23 in one's business, in one's occupation if you were Muslim if you did not

24 declare yourself that way.

25 I did not have any problems in Samac. I cannot state that I had.

1 Well, I changed jobs quite frequently. And it was an important aspect.

2 You could not be in a high post if you were not a member of the Communist

3 Party, and I was that. When it became possible to declare yourself as a

4 Muslim, which was around about 1973, I declared myself a Muslim until the

5 time when we officially became Bosniaks. On the basis of my free will,

6 and I believe that to declare oneself in a certain way is one's own

7 personal choice.

8 MR. DI FAZIO:

9 Q. Thank you. Notwithstanding the fact that you declare yourself as

10 a Bosniak, do you still adhere to the Muslim faith?

11 A. Well, look, I'm more of a Bosniak than a believer. I am not

12 questioning anyone's faith, but it's been quite some time now. I lived

13 for quite a long time without going to the mosque or anything, and now to

14 start again. I appreciate and honour everyone's faith, and I honour

15 believers.

16 I follow religious holidays. They are celebrated in my home. But

17 that we are among those people who keep running to a place of worship all

18 the time, no, no. But it's nice to go every now and then. You meet good

19 people there. I went before the war to both churches, also to see the

20 gentlemen who are sitting here. It was good. We had a good time. And

21 they came to see us too. Everybody's religious customs are a fine thing.

22 But it's not good when they grow into something different. That's what I

23 wish to say.

24 Q. Thank you. Are you related to Alija Izetbegovic, the former

25 President of Bosnia?

1 A. Yes, yes. We are first cousins. His father and my father are

2 brothers. We are very close relatives.

3 Q. Did you know him as a child?

4 A. Of course I did.

5 Q. Did you live with him as a child?

6 A. No. They moved to Sarajevo at an early stage, and we stayed in

7 Samac and we did not visit very often. That's it.

8 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you some questions about the

9 people who live in Bosanski Samac, the town, and the municipality of

10 Bosanski Samac. It's not beyond dispute in this case -- sorry, it is

11 beyond dispute in this case that three major ethnic groups live in the

12 area, Muslims or Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs, at least people of that sort

13 of ethnic background. Did members of all three ethnic groups live in the

14 town of Bosanski Samac?

15 A. Yes, they did. Truth to tell, not in equal numbers, but whoever

16 wanted to live there could live there. There were also other ethnic

17 groups apart from these three.

18 Q. Just for the sake of clarity, I'm just confining myself to the

19 situation pre-April 1992. You said that they lived there, not necessarily

20 in equal numbers. Did they live in enclaves or specific areas in the town

21 of Bosanski Samac? Or were members of all three ethnic groups

22 intermingled and mixed throughout the town?

23 A. Heaven forbid, enclaves? It depended on how much money people had

24 to buy a plot of land, and whoever could, bought a plot of land and built

25 himself a house. Those who got apartments also lived in mixed

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1 neighbourhoods. We all lived in mixed neighbourhoods. Nobody thought of

2 that, if a Croat or Serb came to live in my neighbourhood, that I would

3 be, how should I put this, jeopardised. I'm sorry to use this term,

4 jeopardised. I don't think that anybody was ever jeopardised. It would

5 have been shameful for us not to accept one's neighbours, each other. I'm

6 not going to say now that it's only the Muslims who did this. The Serbs

7 also gladly accepted their neighbours; the Croats too. It was a different

8 way of life, different times, a different kind of respect. All of this

9 happened, happened in such haste that people could hardly come to, to

10 realise what was going on.

11 Q. Thank you. I'm just trying to get a picture of the way people

12 lived at the time, for the benefit of the Chamber.

13 It's also beyond contention in this case that the surrounding

14 villages were primarily populated by Croat or Serb people.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did Muslims have any villages in the area surrounding the town of

17 Bosanski Samac, or did they live primarily in the town?

18 A. Mostly in town. There weren't any Muslim villages. The Muslims

19 who were there lived in town.

20 Q. You touched momentarily on a topic I wanted to ask you about,

21 which was social life in Bosanski Samac and the municipality prior to

22 April of 1992.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And again, it's beyond contention in this case that, generally

25 speaking, Serbs were members of the Orthodox faith, Croats were members of

1 the Roman Catholic faith, and Muslims -- well, their faith is

2 self-evident. Was there ever participation by one member of an ethnic

3 group in the religious observances and festivities of another ethnic group

4 prior to April of 1992?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you give us examples of any such mutual participation?

7 A. When there would be a festivity, Easter, Christmas, Bajram, all

8 other festivities and holidays, depending on the ethnic or religious group

9 involved, we Muslims were invited. Whoever wanted to go could go. To

10 tell you the truth, I often liked their holidays better than my own.

11 Theirs are more joyful, and ours are observed in a different way. We went

12 to see them and they came to see us for Bajram, for example. I think that

13 the gentlemen from Samac remember this. That was at the time when

14 political parties were being created too. We went to see each other for

15 mass, Bajram. For example, we would have festivities involving 500

16 invitees. I don't know. We had a good time. I really don't know what

17 else to add to that.

18 Q. Thank you. Can you comment on the mixed marriages? Did mixed

19 marriages occur in the town and the municipality, and if it did, can you

20 tell us if that was regarded as unusual, exceptional?

21 A. There were quite a few mixed marriages. Also, there are three in

22 my family. My son, my brother, a relative of mine, all of them have mixed

23 marriages. I have four different ethnic groups in my house. You're going

24 to ask which the fourth one is. An Italian. No one was ever sorry when

25 somebody married someone of a different faith, or if a girl married

1 someone who was different. It had become so normal, so accepted. Well,

2 that's the way it was. There were quite a few mixed marriages. And also

3 those who stood the test of war, who survived -- that survived, because

4 others quarrelled and their marriages fell apart. They couldn't take

5 this.

6 Q. Thank you. I want to turn now from the general picture of

7 Bosanski Samac to your background. Have you ever been a member of the

8 Communist Party? By that I mean the Communist Party of the former

9 Yugoslavia.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When did you join the party?

12 A. I joined the party officially in 1999. It was a bit different

13 then. To join the party, you had to be an activist for a while and then

14 you would see how you were doing, and then if people would pass the test,

15 so to speak, then they were accepted. Later it was different, when you

16 would file your own request. I was a member for about 30 years.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note there was a slip of the

18 tongue. The witness said 1999.

19 A. I held responsible duties in the party. And I was a member of the

20 committee, things like that. It was the way it was at that time, and it

21 was normal.

22 MR. DI FAZIO:

23 Q. Just to clarify one matter, you mentioned you joined the party in

24 1999. That can't be right. When did you join the party?

25 A. No, no, no, no, no. I'm so sorry, in 1959, officially in 1959. I

1 just made a mistake.

2 Q. That's okay. Now, you -- did you eventually come to leave the

3 party?

4 A. Yes. I left of my own free will in 1986. However, they still had

5 me registered there. I never got any kind of decision stating that I was

6 no longer a member of the party. I didn't get any decision. It went on

7 that way. I don't know. For example, I would sometimes tell the party

8 operations person, "Well, you know, send me a decision," whatever. But

9 things just remained pending. And then what happened happened and I

10 actively joined the party that I'm in.

11 Q. Did you join the Party of Democratic Action, or SDA, at any

12 particular time?

13 A. I established the branch in Bosanski Samac, as a matter of fact.

14 Q. Can you tell the Chamber of the circumstances under which you

15 joined the SDA, when you joined it, why you joined it? That's my

16 question.

17 A. I did not join it. I started doing this by myself. It was at my

18 own initiative. I founded the initiative committee, the establishment

19 committee, and I established it because there were a lot of members, or

20 rather a lot of people who asked me to establish that, and what could I

21 do? I had to go along with that. People from the ranks of the Muslims,

22 the Bosniaks, of course. It became only natural, because the Croats

23 established the HDZ, the Serbs established the SDS, so why didn't we

24 establish something? The communists had the SDP. I don't know, the

25 liberals and whatever. And my people said to me -- suggested to me that

1 it would be best if I were to initiate this, and I accepted that. And

2 then we established this initiative committee, and then later, we had an

3 assembly, and we held this meeting of the assembly, and this assembly was

4 attended by the gentlemen who are sitting here, and I was elected

5 president of the city committee and branch of that particular party.

6 Q. Thank you. We will just -- you're going ahead of my questions at

7 the moment. We will just -- let's get back now to the creation of the

8 SDA. You say that you established it. Did you establish it in Bosanski

9 Samac and the surrounding area, or did you contribute to its inception on

10 a republican level, that is for all of Bosnia?

11 A. Only in Bosanski Samac. And I do apologise for speaking so fast.

12 I tend to forget myself and ...

13 Q. Thank you. And just very quickly can you tell me this: You

14 referred to some gentlemen here who attended a meeting of the assembly.

15 Which gentlemen here were you referring to?

16 A. I am referring to the president of the SDS party, Mr. Blagojevic.

17 He was invited as a guest.

18 Q. Mr. Blagojevic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Let's get back to the -- to the SDA. You were responsible for

21 creating it in the Bosanski Samac area. Did you receive appointment or

22 high position within the SDA once it had been formed?

23 A. Yes. I was appointed president of the party or, rather, a branch

24 of the party, the branch in Bosanski Samac.

25 Q. Was that from the beginning of its activities?

1 A. Yes, from the very outset.

2 Q. In the period of time between the inception of the party and April

3 of 1992, did you remain president of the party or were you appointed to

4 other positions within the SDA?

5 A. Well, within the SDA, I was automatically a member of the main

6 committee, too, and I held that position all the way up to the first

7 multi-party elections in town. After that, I joined the municipal

8 structures. Then I handed over my duties to another person, Mr. Sulejman

9 Tihic. This was in the party, that is. I stayed on as vice-president of

10 the party and he was president of the party. I was so busy at the

11 municipal assembly that I could not hold both posts.

12 And also, the mainstream of the party suggested that all of those

13 who took up political activities and joined political life, and since they

14 were supposed to represent all three ethnic groups, then the suggestion

15 was that we should all freeze our positions within the party until our

16 terms of office expired.

17 Q. You've touched upon appointment to various governmental positions

18 as opposed to party positions. I want to ask a question about that.

19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. di Fazio, could I just ask for again a

20 clarification from Mr. Izetbegovic.

21 You mentioned that the president of the SDS party was a

22 Mr. Blagojevic. I think that's the first time the Chamber has heard of

23 this surname.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I wonder whether we could have a clarification on

1 that from the witness as to Mr. Blagojevic.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: I was well aware of that name and it didn't escape

3 me, if Your Honour pleases. I was going to deal with it at a later

4 stage. I'm happy to deal with it now if you prefer me to.

5 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I think it might be just as well, just to clear

6 it up, I think.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I will, certainly, if Your Honour

8 pleases.

9 Q. You said earlier in your evidence that you attended meetings at

10 which some gentlemen in this room were.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, it's obvious. It's a leading

12 question. This is examination-in-chief.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I'll go straight to the transcript and

14 we can avoid that. Yes. Thank you.

15 Q. Now, to be precise, my question to you was:

16 Q. You referred to some gentlemen here who attended a

17 meeting of the assembly. Which gentlemen here were

18 you referring to?

19 And you answered:

20 A. I am referring to the president of the SDS party,

21 Mr. Blagojevic, Blagojevic. He was invited as a

22 guest.

23 Now, Blagojevic, where is Mr. Blagojevic here in this courtroom?

24 A. There is no Blagojevic here. Obviously I said Blagojevic, and I

25 do apologise to the gentleman for calling him a different name. Blagoje

1 Simic, that's what I meant. I do beg your pardon.

2 Q. That's okay. Now that you've mentioned the name, can you indicate

3 him to the Chamber? Can you point him out? Who is the man you know as

4 Blagoje Simic?

5 A. He's sitting over there next to Simo Zaric and next to his

6 relative. He's sitting in the middle, in between. He has a beard.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: For the purposes of the transcript, if Your Honours

9 please, I think we can say that he has correctly identified Mr. Blagoje

10 Simic.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

13 Q. Yes. Now, I was going to get to appointment in governmental

14 organs, but firstly you mentioned some elections. When did these

15 elections take place?

16 A. They took place in town, like all other previous elections were

17 held, in various neighbourhoods. The procedure was the way it had always

18 been. Nothing new had happened except that the lists were different, and

19 the system of voting was the same like anywhere else. There were parties

20 on the ballots. That's the way it was.

21 Q. Following that election, is that when you were appointed to

22 positions within the municipal government?

23 A. After the elections, we, the parties, sat down and then according

24 to the elections outcome, we shared power. So the SDA party got two seats

25 in the assembly and one leading position, that is, vice-president of the

1 executive council. That was me. The other parties also got what they

2 were supposed to get according to the elections outcome.

3 There were no tensions. There were no squabbles as to who would

4 get what. We sorted this out quite easy. And given the fact that we were

5 so inexperienced, I think we did well.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for one

7 moment, please.

8 [Prosecution counsel confer]

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Can the witness be shown Exhibit P8

10 ter? It's the Official Gazette of the Bosanski Samac municipality.

11 I believe this morning translations -- a fuller translation was

12 provided to the Chamber of that document or, rather, extracts of the

13 Gazette. I just want to briefly take the witness through some features of

14 it.

15 Q. Now, Mr. Izetbegovic, if you'd put on your reading glasses. Thank

16 you.

17 Firstly, Mr. Izetbegovic, would you please have a quick scan

18 through that document. It's a big document. I'm not suggesting that you

19 read every page. I just want to ask you what the nature of the document

20 is.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Zecevic.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours. Can the document be shown

23 on the ELMO for the sakes of the defendants, please?

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Let the witness first scan it and then it can

25 be --

1 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll ask for it to be shown when I get to the

2 relevant paragraphs. At this stage, I just want the witness to generally

3 acquaint himself with it and get an idea -- and tell us what sort of

4 document it is.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

6 MR. DI FAZIO:

7 Q. Okay. Mr. Izetbegovic, what can you tell us? What document is

8 that?

9 A. I haven't got it in front of me yet, I mean, on the monitor. Is

10 that the document you're referring to?

11 Q. No, no. Don't worry about the monitor, Mr. Izetbegovic. Don't

12 worry about that at all. Just the document that you've got in front of

13 you that you're looking at, what is it?

14 A. It is the Official Gazette of the municipality, which contains

15 information about events taking place at a given period of time.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Now I would ask that certain pages of the document

18 to be put on the ELMO. And to assist that process, I simply want to go to

19 the portion of the document that has an ERN number, which is the easiest

20 way to get to the paragraph that I'm interested in. And for the purposes

21 of the usher, to assist the usher, the ERN number is at the top right-hand

22 corner. The ERN number that I want is 00456503.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. di Fazio, where did you say the number is?

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry, the number is 00456503. It's about

25 three-quarters of the way -- or more than that, about four-fifths of the

1 way through the document, if Your Honours please, and it's issue dated the

2 22nd of December, 1990, and that's on the B/C/S version. On the

3 translation, it will be headed under paragraph 141. Do you see that? If

4 we put it up on the ERN, I'll be able to immediately -- sorry, on the

5 ELMO, I'll be able to immediately assist the Tribunal.

6 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. di Fazio, we have on the bottom the 0045 and

7 then we have 6514.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: At the bottom of what, may I ask Your Honour?

9 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Of the English translation, P8, of the Official

10 Gazette.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. That refers to the original B/C/S ERN number.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: In the English version, you said that it's paragraph

13 141.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: That's right. If you look at the --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: It's the very first page.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: That's right. The English translation says number

17 7, 22nd of December 1990 and underneath that 141. On the ELMO, you will

18 see 141, you see the word "B-r-o-j" number 7, 22nd of December 1990, and

19 it's that paragraph that's been translated and it's that paragraph I'm

20 going to ask the witness about now. So Your Honours should have the

21 document in front of you and the translation so you can follow it.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Right.

24 Q. Can you see on the screen?

25 A. Yes. It is the report of the election committee of persons that

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1 have passed the election procedure and it relates to all the parties.

2 Q. Okay. Now, if you look on the first page, under paragraph 141, in

3 the left-hand column, it deals with what I think are election results. Do

4 you see those election results showing that the Croatian Democratic Union

5 won 21 seats and the SDA won two seats, the SDS won 17 seats, and so on?

6 A. I can't see very well, but that was how things had transpired.

7 Now I can see.

8 Q. Now, the very simple question: The election results you see in

9 that Gazette, are they the results of the election you have told us about

10 in your evidence?

11 A. Yes, that is right. Well, they have been checked and controlled,

12 given the fact that the results have been published in the Official

13 Gazette.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, just ask you to cast your eye sideways and go

15 into the right-hand column of the B/C/S version.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, to follow it on the English

17 translation, it would be the second page of the document.

18 Q. There are two names there, Sulejman Tihic and Izet Izetbegovic,

19 who were elected from the list of the Party of Democratic Action. Is the

20 Izet Izebegovic referred to there you?

21 A. Yes, yes, it was me.

22 Q. Thank you. And just cast your eye a little way down that same

23 column, and you'll see a name Dr. Blagoje Simic elected from the list of

24 the Serbian Democratic Party. Who is the Blagoje Simic that is referred

25 to there?

1 A. Mr. Simic is the person I identified, I recognised.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 A. Blagoje Simic.

4 Q. Thank you. Now, very briefly could I just ask you -- ask the

5 usher to --

6 A. Dr. Simic, I apologise.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: If I could ask the usher to turn over three pages

9 until he gets to ERN number 00456507, and that should show at the top of

10 the page a paragraph number 144.

11 Q. Just have a quick -- acquaint yourself quickly with the contents

12 of paragraph 144. I don't want to dwell upon this. That portion of the

13 transcript -- of the Gazette indicates that you were appointed to

14 something called the verification committee. Perhaps for the sake of

15 clarity, I should --

16 A. The verification committee, yes, that's right.

17 Q. Just to be absolutely clear, that Izet Izebegovic is you, the

18 person referred to in paragraph 144?

19 A. Yes, it is. Yes, it is.

20 Q. What was the verification committee, can you remember?

21 A. It was set up to verify the minutes of the election committee and

22 proclaim it as official, the results official, at the assembly.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: If I could ask the usher to turn over the page so

25 that we are looking at the page in the B/C/S version with the ERN number

1 at the top 00456508.

2 Q. And I'd ask you to look at the left-hand column, the bottom of the

3 page, under paragraph 148. I apologise it's not the clearest copy. 148.

4 That asserts that a medical doctor, Blagoje Simic, Doctor of Medicine from

5 Bosanski Samac, was elected to the position of Bosanski Samac municipal

6 assembly as Vice-President with a four-year term of office. My question

7 is: Is that the Blagoje Simic that you see in court?

8 A. Yes, Dr. Blagoje Simic.

9 Q. Thank you. I've finished with the document. Now I want to ask

10 you some questions about the defendants in this case. You have already

11 identified one of them.

12 A. Yes, I have.

13 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Simo Zaric?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Yes. Miroslav Tadic?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. Milan Simic?

18 A. I have to apologise because I've seen him for the very first time

19 in this courtroom. I may have met him in the town of Samac. I know his

20 whole family. I have known his father, but I don't know if we had met

21 during -- at any time in Samac.

22 Q. Thank you. Can I ask you, if you can, to identify

23 Mr. Simo Zaric?

24 A. Of course. Well, I'm looking at him, and he's looking at me.

25 He's got a red tie, the same as mine, the same sort of suit as I'm

1 wearing, except that his hair is even greyer than mine.

2 Q. And what about Miroslav Tadic?

3 A. Yes, I know Mr. Miroslav Tadic. He's an old neighbour of mine.

4 He has grey hair also, and I suppose I have grey hair. As far as he's

5 concerned, we were always on good terms. We shared different activities.

6 I don't know what else you would like to know. Private activities. I'm

7 referring to private activities.

8 Q. Does he have a moustache?

9 A. Yes, he does.

10 Q. Prior to April 1992, did he have a nickname?

11 A. They called him Brko.

12 Q. And what does Brko mean?

13 A. Man that has a moustache.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like you to answer some questions, if you

15 may, regarding Mr. Simo Zaric. First of all, how long would you say that

16 you have known him?

17 A. A fairly long time. I cannot say accurately. I have known him

18 especially since he arrived in Samac and became head of the security

19 service station.

20 Q. Can you give us even an approximate idea? Is it a matter of --

21 did you meet him in the 1960s or the 1950s, 1970s, 1980s?

22 A. I'll try to say it. I'm not quite sure. It could have been

23 somewhere around the 1970s, more or less.

24 Q. What occupation did he have when you first met him?

25 A. Well, I didn't know -- I hadn't known him earlier so I really

1 couldn't say.

2 Q. Did you come to know what his occupation was?

3 A. I think that they said that he was an economist or something, if I

4 am not mistaken. I'm not quite sure.

5 Q. Have you ever heard of a company called Buducnost?

6 A. Yes, I have. I used to work in that company.

7 Q. Did Simo Zaric ever have any connection with that company?

8 A. He was manager of that company.

9 Q. Do you recall when?

10 A. I think it was when he stopped being head of the SUP, of the

11 police. I think.

12 Q. Thank you. Well, you just mentioned he was head of the SUP, of

13 the police. When did he achieve that position? Have you got any idea?

14 A. I think it was at the time when I got to know him. I think it was

15 in 1970 or a few years later. I cannot tell you with accuracy.

16 Q. You say the SUP of the police. Where was that position located?

17 Was that in Bosanski Samac or somewhere else?

18 A. In Bosanski Samac, near the municipality building and near my --

19 in the municipality building near my home.

20 Q. Do I understand your evidence correctly to be that your memory,

21 your memory tells you that he was head of the SUP, chief of police, until

22 he joined Buducnost?

23 A. Well, I did not really follow all his movements, but I remember

24 vaguely. Because Samac isn't a large town. We know each other. We

25 frequently met. So I cannot tell you with certainty when he took over

1 that job.

2 Q. At the time that he was associated with Buducnost, did he remain

3 in Bosanski Samac or did he work elsewhere?

4 A. Well, when his term of office expired, another person came. And I

5 believe, if I'm not mistaken, he went to Belgrade and was appointed

6 manager of the representative office of the company which was located in

7 Sumice in Belgrade.

8 Q. Did he eventually turn to the Bosanski Samac area?

9 A. He used to come to spend the weekends there. He didn't really

10 move out. He would come and go.

11 Q. Did he eventually return on a more permanent basis to Bosanski

12 Samac or the surrounding area?

13 A. He came back permanently. He came -- he went there later on. He

14 became employed in the state security, and I think that its headquarters

15 were in Modrica. And that is not far from Modrica, 19 kilometres, and he

16 used to travel there and back. It was in part of Modrica.

17 Q. What sort of work were you doing in the 1970s and 1980s?

18 A. From 1970 until 1973, I was manager of the Teknika [phoen]

19 construction company. In 1973, I went to the furniture factory, and then

20 I went -- I became representative of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Slovenia

21 until the elections and during the elections to the municipal assembly.

22 Q. The carrying out of your duties in these positions that you've

23 just described to us, manager of these factories and so on, ever bring you

24 into contact with Simo Zaric in any sort of professional manner?

25 A. No. We didn't have any unpleasant contacts.

1 Q. I'm not asking about unpleasant contacts. I'm just saying did the

2 carrying out of your job ever require you to speak to Mr. Simo Zaric in

3 his capacity either at Buducnost or as public security?

4 A. It is quite possible that we had contacts in Buducnost. It was a

5 furniture factory, and we probably discussed matters of cooperation. I

6 cannot be very affirmative in this sense. While he was working in

7 Modrica, luckily I didn't have any contact, because not everyone used to

8 go there. I may have deserved that. I don't know.

9 Q. What about Mr. Blagoje Simic? How long have you known him?

10 A. Mister -- Dr. Blagoje Simic, I've known him for quite some time,

11 because I used to work with his father for quite some time also in the

12 Buducnost company. I know his brother. Very nice people. And Blagoje

13 used to be a nice person too.

14 Q. Prior to April of 1992, how long would you say that you had known

15 him?

16 A. April 1992 how long? Well, until that moment, we knew each other,

17 and then we -- then our paths separated from that date onwards. We didn't

18 see each other any more until now.

19 Q. Did he engage in any political activities?

20 A. Well, he was vice-president of the assembly before the events in

21 question. He was vice-president of the assembly. I was vice-president of

22 the executive council. We would get together and talk quite frequently

23 about matters of an interest to the municipality, our experience in our

24 parties, and so forth. We exchanged experiences.

25 Q. Did he have any political affiliations that you're aware of?

1 A. Until the last few days, I didn't notice that he did. And during

2 the last few days, we had several unpleasant encounters, meetings, when

3 the meetings began and when mention was made -- talk was made of dividing

4 the municipality, when the North-Eastern Bosnia association was being set

5 up and so on.

6 Q. We'll get into that topic in a while, but at this stage, I'm just

7 trying to get background material.

8 My question was: Did he have any political affiliations? Perhaps

9 I should be more direct. Was he a member of the SDS?

10 A. Yes. He was president of the SDS. He was the highest-ranking

11 member of the party, with the greatest amount of responsibility.

12 Q. You've told us of his appointment and his positions in government

13 and contact that you had with him as a result of his holding those

14 positions, and your own positions in government. What about before the

15 elections and the appointment, yourself and Mr. Blagoje Simic, to those

16 positions? Did you have any contact then as a result of your political

17 activities and his political activities before you got government

18 positions?

19 A. Yes. We had party contacts, exchanges of experience both in my

20 case, in his case. I didn't sense at any moment that there was something

21 wrong there. I don't know if he had the same feelings.

22 I even went to Obudovac, to his home. He invited me. I said that

23 I didn't have a car, and then he said, "I'll come and fetch you," and

24 that's how we went there and came back together.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

1 MR. PANTELIC: I think that I heard that the witness said

2 "Ponocka." What does it mean by "Ponocka"? Is it a --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Let us establish whether he said so.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Ponocka name.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe the Prosecution can --

6 MR. PANTELIC: It's religious, I think, a religious term.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the Prosecution clear that?

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Thank you.

9 Q. You heard that, Mr. Izetbegovic? Did you say something about

10 Ponocka?

11 A. Well, I presume that the counsel knows that that is on the eve of

12 Christmas, Christmas Eve. There are masses held in church, and then was a

13 copious and nice meal. Whether it is called Ponocka, midnight mass, I

14 think it's called the same by the Croats and the Serbs. I don't know of

15 any other expression for this. I'm sorry.

16 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you very much, Mr. Izetbegovic. I heard you

17 very well. I know what is the Ponocka. Thank you for your answer.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

19 MR. PANTELIC: But my intervention was because the Translation Unit

20 didn't mention that, to my opinion, quite important detail.

21 So once again, Mr. Izetbegovic, thank you. Thank you very much.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution, please.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's all right.

24 MR. DI FAZIO:

25 Q. Did Mr. Simic coming to fetch you in his car have anything to do

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1 with Ponocka?

2 A. Well, we were there together. There was an organiser or, rather,

3 there was a host to us guests -- he was the host to us.

4 Q. Thank you. Following the elections and your appointment to

5 government office and the appointment of Mr. Blagoje Simic as

6 vice-president of the municipal assembly, did you both have offices in the

7 municipal assembly building?

8 A. Mr. Blagojevic (sic), well, he didn't have any office. He was a

9 volunteer. He would come occasionally. He was either at President

10 Nujic's -- he would come on consultations when he was called to come. He

11 worked at the health centre, medical centre. He had his duties to perform

12 there in the field of medicine. And he did not have his own office. He

13 would only come occasionally.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I still haven't finished

15 with Mr. Zaric, but we've come to 1.00. Is this an appropriate time?

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will adjourn and continue tomorrow at 0930

17 hours.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

19 1.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday the 4th day

20 of October, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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