1 Friday, 5 October 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 10.00 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. The registrar please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav

9 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The proceedings will continue under Rule 15

11 bis. The Prosecution, please.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours. Just before I proceed,

13 could I please produce into evidence another bundle of photographs. These

14 are identical to P14. They are unmarked. They have nothing on them other

15 than the numbering. And they are the same sequence as P14, but they are

16 unmarked and don't give any indication as to what they depict, and that

17 should stop any problems in the future, I mean from the Defence objecting

18 because of --

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Defence have seen the copies?

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, they have. Yes. And in any event, they are

21 identical to P14.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: They have no objection. Thank you.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: So might I suggest, if the Court agrees with me --

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: -- that we give it a number around P14, say P14B or

1 something like that, because that would make it easier. And perhaps we

2 could title it Duplicate Set of Photographs Without -- or "Sanitised

3 Photographs or Duplicate Set of Photographs," something like that, to

4 indicate how they differ from P14.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the numbering?

6 THE REGISTRAR: The duplicate set of photographs shall be marked

7 for the record as Prosecutor's Exhibit P14A.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. May I proceed?

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can proceed.

11 WITNESS: IZET IZETBEGOVIC: [Resumed]

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Examined by Mr. di Fazio: [Continued]

14 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic, I just want to finish up with a few questions on

15 the topic that we discussed yesterday, and that is the meeting at which

16 plans were unfolded or a proposal was made for the division of

17 municipalities and the movement of ethnic groups into -- into those

18 municipalities. During the course of the meeting, was the Sava River

19 mentioned?

20 A. No. I didn't notice that. The Serb municipality wanted and said

21 that they should reach the River Sava, and it was mentioned in that

22 context.

23 Q. Thank you. That's precisely the context I'm interested in. Can

24 you recall who said what about that particular topic?

25 A. No. I couldn't speak about that individual. Well, people tended

1 to speak at the same time. It was noisy. No one was satisfied. The

2 others weren't satisfied. There was no order in the discussion. When I

3 say "others," I mean the Croats and the Muslims. They were not happy with

4 the proposal.

5 Q. You said in your answer two answer ago, "The Serb municipality

6 wanted and said that they should reach the River Sava." That's what I'm

7 interested in. There may have been a lot of people talking, but was it

8 ever made clear to you what they wanted in respect of the Sava River?

9 A. No. They didn't explain the reasons for that.

10 Q. Did they ever explain to you what it meant that they should reach

11 the Sava River?

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic?

13 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honours. It's obvious -- it's

14 obviously leading.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Objection sustained.

16 Mr. Prosecutor.

17 MR. DI FAZIO:

18 Q. At the meeting, was there any discussion as to how the proposal

19 would be affected, how it would be brought about that people or ethnic

20 groups would go to their preordained municipalities?

21 A. Well, to begin with, no one accepted such a possibility; and

22 secondly, they wanted to have that municipality. At the beginning, they

23 didn't speak about moving. They just said that the municipality would be

24 called Samac and the territory was defined. The transfer itself, quite

25 naturally, the other two nationalities in that case would not remain in

1 this Serb municipality.

2 At the table where I was discussing what would happen to us, that

3 everyone would go to his own municipality and that the Muslims would go to

4 Gradacac, and I think that Mr. Blagoje Simic said that this should be done

5 in a peaceful way, the division should be carried out in a peaceful way so

6 as to avoid conflict and not resolve this through conflict, and I noted

7 straight away what the peaceful means implied when there were army there

8 and when the proposal was being put forward in the presence of the

9 Yugoslav army. As I said, the building had been blocked. I said that

10 before. There were no conditions for a democratic discussion to take

11 place. In other words, I took it that if we could not resolve this, then

12 we would resolve it by force and everyone would fare as he would fare.

13 Q. Who would resolve it by force? When you say "we" --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

15 MR. DI FAZIO:

16 Q. When you say, "We would resolve it by force," who was the "we"?

17 Who was going to use force?

18 A. Well, the main initiator. The chairman of the meeting was the SDS

19 in the presence of the Yugoslav army. So in other words -- well, we

20 couldn't think of any other thing.

21 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic, you've said that the question of force, of force,

22 was raised at the meeting. Who raised it? What did they say about the

23 use of force? Very simple: Who raised it, what did they say?

24 A. The whole meeting was chaired by Mr. Simic, and he was the main

25 speaker. Everything that was said came from his mouth.

1 Q. Given my question and your answer that the meeting was chaired by

2 Mr. Simic and he was the main speaker, do I understand you correctly that

3 he was the person who raised the question of force?

4 A. Well, the very fact that he came accompanied by force, surrounded

5 by force.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Would Your Honours just bear with me

7 for one moment, please.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

9 [Prosecution counsel confer]

10 MR. DI FAZIO:

11 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic, can you recall now any statements, or all

12 statements, made by Mr. Blagoje Simic on this issue of force? Just tell

13 me yes or no.

14 A. I cannot remember all that. I was very innervated. It had become

15 very noisy and it was very difficult to understand one another. And the

16 meeting was discontinued, not officially, but it was just said that they

17 would meet -- the meeting would reconvene. And on my way out, I saw the

18 armed soldiers.

19 Q. Did you provide a statement to officers of the Prosecutor in 1994

20 and 1995? Just tell us if you did or didn't.

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. Would it assist you to refresh your memory on this topic by

23 looking at that statement? Just tell us yes or no, answer us yes or no.

24 A. Yes, possibly.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I propose to show the

1 statement to Mr. Izebegovic and ask him whether it refreshes his memory

2 as to various statements made.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I see Mr. Pantelic on his feet.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Madam President, I think that it is quite, I would

5 say, a unique way of refreshing of memory of witness, because it's a

6 criminal proceedings, these are very serious issues, so I think my learned

7 friend should find another way of questioning, not with direct manner to

8 show the witness what was in the transcript, because, finally, these

9 transcripts are not - I mean, statements - are not transcripts. These are

10 the summaries of something what was said. So I think --

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. What -- no, no. Let me be clear about that.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: What you have is a summary.

14 MR. PANTELIC: They also have summary.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Just wait. What you have is a summary made by

16 the Prosecution.

17 MR. PANTELIC: Madam President, let me be clear.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Each witness statement disclosed by the OTP to us,

20 virtually each, is a sort of summary. It is not audiotape when they have

21 a witness in their offices and then each word was recorded.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Is it signed by the maker?

23 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Yes, that's correct.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. If it is signed, then it is a statement.

25 Whether it is in summary form, it is signed by --

1 MR. PANTELIC: I understand. But I'm speaking about the way how

2 the Prosecutor should proceed with these sensitive issues. I mean, my

3 objection is based on the fact that it's a little bit improper to put, you

4 know, statement in front of witness and say, "Did you say that or no?" I

5 mean, maybe a phrase of question should be used or a way of questioning

6 should be used rather than direct, I would say, refreshing --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Of the memory.

8 MR. PANTELIC: Of witness memory, yes.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

10 MR. PANTELIC: That was my basis. Thank you.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Prosecutor. He's is your witness, and it would

12 almost amount to cross-examination.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Well --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Because it appears that you're trying to challenge

15 him.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: No. The witness has said -- with respect, Your

17 Honour, no. The witness has said that he can't recall every statement

18 made about the use of force at the meeting. He's also said that he's

19 given a statement, and he said that he might be assisted in refreshing his

20 memory if he looks at the statement. Now --

21 JUDGE MUMBA: And the statement you show him in Serbo-Croat?

22 MR. DI FAZIO: No. The statement is signed by him and it is in

23 English. So I would have to read the portion to him, have it interpreted

24 to him, and then ask him if it's refreshed his memory.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Yes. You can go ahead, and the Trial

1 Chamber will decide how much weight to attach to that.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can go ahead.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm grateful to Your Honours.

5 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic, I just want to read to you a portion of the

6 statement that you made back in the mid-1990s. I just want you not to

7 comment, just to listen to what I read out to you. Okay?

8 MR. DI FAZIO: If -- my learned friends from the Defence, I'll

9 point out that the passage I'm reading is at page 6 and 7 of the English

10 statement, at the bottom.

11 Q. "Nikolic said Simo Zaric, who commanded the 4th Detachment, had

12 military authority over the Bosanski Samac district. We declared that

13 we --"

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you be slow for the interpreters, please.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: I apologise.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you restart.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I'm sorry. I do apologise. I've got the two

18 pages wrong. It's pages 5 and 6.

19 Q. I do apologise, Mr. Izetbegovic. I'll read to you the portion.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: And I don't think we got the date it was taken and

21 signed.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: The dates of the statement are the 30th of

23 September, 6th of October, 11th of December, 1994, and 27th of February,

24 1995. Interviews conducted by a number of women, investigators, and

25 counsel from the Office of the Prosecutor.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you.

2 MR. DI FAZIO:

3 Q. Now, this is the portion of the statement that I want to read to

4 you, and I just will ask you, just listen to it and don't comment. I

5 don't want your answer at this stage, but just listen.

6 "Blagoje Simic made a proposal as to how the municipalities

7 should be organised. He said that the Serbs needed to be connected to the

8 Sava River so that they would take the municipality of Bosanski Samac.

9 The Croats would go to Orasje, the Muslims would moved to Gradacac, and

10 only Serbs would remain in it. They did not propose a time frame, but

11 since they saw that no one would discuss it, they proposed that everyone

12 would meet again in a week with a plan of how it would realised. That

13 meeting never took place because Bosanski Samac was attacked.

14 "Blagoje Simic said that if we didn't agree on a concept, that the

15 Serbs would use force. He repeatedly said, `We have the JNA on our side,

16 we have weapons, and if you don't agree to those talks, you will lose

17 everything.'"

18 Now, did you hear what I just said? Just answer me yes or no.

19 Did you hear what I just said?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. Did you say that in your statement in 1994 and 1995?

22 A. Well, this is, in fact, more recent in time, a fresher statement

23 than what is happening today, and I stand by the statement I made

24 earlier.

25 Q. Having heard what you apparently said in your statement of 1994

1 and 1995, has it refreshed your memory as to what Mr. Blagoje Simic said

2 on the question of force?

3 A. Yes. At a different place, we repeated something similar to

4 that.

5 Q. Do you have any reason to disagree with the account that I have

6 read out to you from your statement?

7 A. I agree. What I said has been written down, and I agree with

8 that, and I signed it. Since much time has elapsed, I tended to forget

9 some of those things, and at the moment, the recollection was very fresh

10 when I was making the statement.

11 Q. Having heard what I told you, read out to you of your statement,

12 do you now recollect such words being uttered by Mr. Blagoje Simic,

13 namely -- namely that if you didn't agree on a concept that the Serbs

14 would use force, that the JNA was on their side, they had weapons, and if

15 you don't agree to talks, you will lose everything?

16 A. It was very difficult. And even today in the case of Blagoje

17 Simic, it's difficult to say what he says seriously or jokingly. He said

18 that he cannot escape from that. I can even define and describe the table

19 and chair he was sitting at at the meeting and when something similar was

20 said at a different place. Whether he said that seriously or not, I do

21 not know, but this is what he said basically.

22 Q. Thank you. Was this a light-hearted occasion, this meeting?

23 A. After a meeting, we went to have lunch, a sort of lunch together.

24 We had agreed to do that. The situation was rather bad and confused, and

25 we couldn't do anything. So the presidents of the parties -- of the three

1 parties, we said that we should sit around the table and reach some sort

2 of agreement to avoid something happening. When we witnessed events in

3 Bijeljina and Brod and all around us, everything was very heated, and we

4 feared that a similar event would take place with us.

5 We tried. We sat down at a table. Mr. Simic was there,

6 Mr. Nujic, and some other people, too, and when the -- only three of us

7 remained in a fish restaurant when finally Mr. Simic said, "What are you

8 looking for, you Muslims? We Serbs are used to fighting wars. We don't

9 know how to do anything else. If you don't agree with us, you will lose

10 everything."

11 Of course, I said something to him which was not very agreeable to

12 him. "Well, you could become perhaps in that war a Dr. Mengele." And

13 then we laughed.

14 That was the sort of talk that was taking place.

15 Q. Thank you. I'd like to turn now to another topic, that's the TO,

16 or Territorial Defence. In the period of time leading up to the 16th and

17 17th of April, was there any meeting to discuss the TO, the Territorial

18 Defence? And by that, I mean its existence, its continued existence.

19 A. Yes. We had a working meeting when the then-commander of the TO,

20 in fact, handed in his resignation. He no longer wished to be that. The

21 executive board was in session, and it discussed that particular issue.

22 However, then we had the complete information why this was being

23 done. He said that the Serbs refused to take part in the TO because they

24 had formed their unit and the TO was no longer what it used to be. This

25 was also done in part by the Croats. Almost 80 per cent of the Croats did

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1 the same. A few remained in the TO, a few Croats remained. So, so to

2 speak, the TO no longer functioned, was no longer operational.

3 Q. Was there any attempt to revive it?

4 A. Yes. We tried; we who were there. We were forced and only had

5 the possibility of mobilising people from the municipal part, in the city

6 part. And there are -- also basically Muslims remained who were involved

7 in TO. All the others had their organised units, so to speak.

8 Q. You say that there was an attempt to revive it. How long before

9 the 16th or 17th of April did this -- did this take place?

10 A. Well, so to speak, the TO started ten -- or a week ago, stopped

11 working before the events took place. Mr. Simic and I talked about this,

12 that this should be done. We even went to Doboj together to see the

13 regional TO staff and to hear their opinion. Mr. Simic and I went there

14 together. And in consultation with the president of the municipality, we

15 went to see what happened with the weapons that had been earlier

16 withdrawn. We heard that it had been sold, and we wanted to see what its

17 fate was. We spoke with the regional TO commander there. Mr. Simic was

18 not left out. He accepted, and he went along with me.

19 Q. Just tell us yes or no: Did the TO normally have weapons?

20 A. For quite a long time the TO didn't have any. And then, when we

21 re-established the TO in agreement with the Ministry of Defence of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and also we appointed certain people, but we didn't do

23 anything on our own, this came from somewhere, these weapons.

24 Q. Yes. You've talked about going to Doboj with Mr. Simic. You talk

25 about what had happened to the weapons. How long before the takeover was

1 that trip to Doboj with Mr. Simic to talk about what had happened to the

2 weapons? How long before the 16th or 17th of April, 1992?

3 A. I can't exactly remember the date, but it was certainly before all

4 of the things that we mentioned a while ago, all the things that were

5 happening. It was before that.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, what had happened to the weapons? Just briefly,

7 very briefly, tell us what had happened to the weapons of the TO that

8 caused you to go to Doboj to follow them up.

9 A. When the parties were first established, when there were these big

10 upheavals in Yugoslavia, then the army of Yugoslavia withdrew all weapons,

11 not only from Samac; from all municipalities. They withdrew weapons to

12 the central warehouse.

13 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Right. Following that, did you go to

14 Doboj with Mr. Simic? Just tell us yes or no: Following that, did you go

15 to Doboj with Mr. Simic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. And was that to chase up what had happened with the

18 weapons?

19 A. Yes. We went to inquire as to what had happened and, generally

20 speaking, what the fate of the Territorial Defence would be, later as

21 well.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

23 Would Your Honours just bear with me, please.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

25 [Prosecution counsel confer]

1 MR. DI FAZIO:

2 Q. Now, you also mentioned in your evidence a short while ago an

3 attempt to revive the TO.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. That's quite a separate and distinct episode from the visit to

6 Doboj to chase up the weapons after their seizure, isn't it?

7 A. Completely separate event.

8 Q. Thank you. Now, let's concentrate on this event, okay, the

9 completely separate event, the attempt to revive the TO. How long before

10 the events of the 16th and 17th of April was that attempt to revive the

11 TO?

12 A. Well, the preparations started immediately upon returning from

13 Doboj, and we got final instructions from the Ministry of Defence of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Mr. Jerko Doko was minister then. They sent us a fax

15 in which it said that we should urgently revive the Territorial Defence.

16 There was a problem, because we did not know how to do this and in which

17 way; nevertheless, we did something. We sat down, reached an agreement,

18 and sent it over there to the ministry, that is, the names of the persons

19 that would be right for the commander of the Territorial Defence and for

20 the head. We asked the gentlemen from the SDS. They did not give their

21 agreement. They simply said that they were not interested in that.

22 Later, with the HDZ, we did this, and we sent it up there. And

23 after that, we got decisions for both of these people. I personally

24 handed over these decisions and their appointment to them and said that

25 they should embark upon setting up the Territorial Defence and everything

1 else, as it should be done. It's not that I'm some kind of military

2 person so that I should make suggestions to them. Both of them were

3 military men or, rather, reserve military men, so it was best for them to

4 handle it.

5 Q. Thank you. That's precisely what I wanted to know. Can you

6 recall the names of these two military men?

7 A. From the Bosniak side, it was Alija Fitozovic. He was a reserve

8 Major. And from the Croat side, it was Bozanovic, Marko. I don't know

9 what rank he had. I can't remember. He was also a reserve officer, but I

10 don't know which rank he held.

11 Q. Thank you. Now, the occasion that you handed over the appointment

12 confirmation to them, to these two gentlemen, approximately how long

13 before the 16th and 17th of April was it?

14 A. The appointment confirmations were handed over seven or eight days

15 before --

16 Q. Thank you.

17 A. -- I think.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 A. But --

20 Q. Thank you. I want to move on to another topic. I'd like to ask

21 you about events on the night of the 16th of April, 1992. Did you attend

22 any meetings on that night, that evening?

23 A. Yes. Yes. That evening there was a meeting. I think it was the

24 final meeting, at the local commune. All the parties involved were

25 present. The meeting was attended by Mr. Zaric too, with Lieutenant

1 Colonel Nikolic. The worst thing is that as of late, they had always

2 started coming to meetings accompanied by the Yugoslav People's Army, so

3 it seemed that there were always strings attached. During those days, we

4 were simply being informed to a greater extent, rather than being

5 consulted. We were informed as to what would happen, what would be

6 happening.

7 That night, Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic finally introduced

8 Mr. Zaric as the commander of the 4th Detachment, that had a total of 450

9 people, armed people. We realised that that was the end of everything, of

10 all discussions, agreements. There was a lot of commotion among the

11 citizenry. People were getting their children, and that night everything

12 that happened started to happen.

13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Izetbegovic, and I'm certainly going to ask you

14 about what happened that night, but before we get to that, could I ask you

15 just to go back to the meeting itself.

16 Now, you went along, and you say that Mr. Zaric was present and

17 Mr. Nikolic was present. Can you recall any other personalities, apart

18 from the men that you've mentioned, or is that it? Is that all you can

19 remember, I should say.

20 A. All the representatives of the respective parties were present.

21 Q. Was this meeting part of some -- was it official in any sense, or

22 was it a community meeting? Was it official contact between party

23 representatives and the army, anything like that?

24 A. It was. It was. In a way, this was an agreed meeting, because

25 everybody expressed their wish to have such a meeting held, to see what

1 was going on, who was where, et cetera.

2 I forgot to mention a few minutes ago that this meeting was also

3 attended by Mr. Bozanovic and Mr. Fitozovic as representatives of the

4 Territorial Defence. We were told at that meeting that Territorial

5 Defence was not needed. If there is a 4th Detachment, if there is the

6 Yugoslav People's Army, what is this for? What is this detachment for?

7 Who are we going to be attacked by? That's what I asked, and at that

8 moment I asked Mr. Zaric that. I said, "All right, Mr. Zaric, if that's

9 what you're saying. But tell me, who are you defending us from?"

10 Q. How did he answer?

11 A. I seem to recall that there wasn't any answer, and somebody

12 mentioned something from the outside. You know, in that period of time,

13 we all started using a bit derogatory terms in relation to one another.

14 We were calling each other Ustashas, Chetniks, Green Berets. Really, we

15 all called each other these names. You cannot say that it was one side

16 that was doing more of it or less of it. We often did call each other

17 these names.

18 Q. Was there discussion about the existence or continued existence of

19 the TO?

20 A. For the most part, the gentlemen from the 4th Detachment spoke,

21 assisted by the military, and then the TO. Well, I saw that there were

22 some unrealistic statements, things like that; threats, quarrels,

23 intimidation, things like that. I cannot but say that from the

24 Territorial Defence they gave some kind of nonsensical figures as to how

25 many weapons there are and how many people there are. But, you know, when

1 people want to intimidate each other, that's the kind of thing they resort

2 to. There wasn't even 20 per cent of all that. But there were tensions.

3 And again, we parted, but we didn't reach any kind of agreement. It was

4 as if another meeting would be required. But that night the shooting

5 started.

6 Q. What did you do after the meeting?

7 A. After the meeting, we went to the party, to the Main Committee.

8 We scheduled a meeting of the Main Committee and we reached a realistic

9 assessment there that war was on the threshold and there was no chance to

10 do anything at that point. Then we all went to our respective homes,

11 having agreed that none of us should use weapons against any side except

12 in self-defence in one's own home.

13 Q. Thank you. When you say, "We went to the party," are you

14 referring to the SDA?

15 A. Yes, the SDA. We went to the party. We stayed there briefly. We

16 agreed as to what we should do. We assessed the situation. And we all

17 went to our respective homes.

18 Q. Did you actually go home?

19 A. Well, I did not go to my own home. I went home to my daughter's

20 apartment. To tell you the truth, I was afraid to be at home. For a long

21 time during those nights, for about a month or so, I had not been sleeping

22 at my own home. I spent the night at different places.

23 Q. Did you hear any disturbances during the night?

24 A. Yes. The shooting started around 2.00, I think. It was

25 terrible. It was the attack on Samac. It was quite obvious. And the

1 explosions and detonations were getting closer and closer and, therefore,

2 they were louder and louder. I think this shooting of theirs was

3 primarily for the sake of intimidation. And nobody got killed. There

4 weren't any actions carried out.

5 There was a lot of commotion among the people. People started

6 running away. They were shooting. And I imagine that they were also

7 shooting in the air. They only wanted to intimidate people.

8 Q. Slow down, Mr. Izetbegovic. It's important that we all hear what

9 you're saying. And the interpreters have to translate what you say, so if

10 you could just slow it down a little bit.

11 Did you --

12 A. I do apologise. Thank you.

13 Q. Did you remain at your daughter's place or did you go out into the

14 streets, have a look at what was going on?

15 A. Yes, I did go out to see what was going on. At first I thought it

16 would be a sort of nonsensical thing. Okay, they would come. They would

17 take power. I would not be in power any longer. Even if they would

18 detain me, it could go on for 15 or 20 days. Well, gaol is for human

19 beings too. But I always counted on this civilised part, and I thought,

20 well, whoever wanted to take power over could.

21 I walked about town. And after all, it was my duty to walk around

22 and seeing what was going on in our main areas and what was going on with

23 our people, and I realised that a lot of people had fled, some to

24 Slavonia, some to Prud across the bridge. And I returned home sometime

25 around 2.00 in the afternoon, again to my daughter's apartment, that is.

1 I didn't go out of there anymore.

2 Q. How do you know that people had fled across the bridge to Prud?

3 A. Well, when I was at the bridge itself, I mean, I was at the bridge

4 and I saw them leaving.

5 Q. That's what I want to know. I take it, therefore, that you went

6 to the bridge at some point. Was that during the night of the 16th and

7 17th, or was it during daytime on the 17th?

8 A. It had already dawned. It was on the 17th. It was in the morning

9 of the 17th, and I was roaming around that area.

10 Q. What could you see at the bridge at Prud?

11 A. I saw people who were panic-stricken, who were waiting at the

12 bridge to cross it. However, since there was sniper fire there from

13 Crkvina, then people crossed the bridge in fear. They were even crawling

14 across the bridge in order to get to the other side. For the most part,

15 it was men who were crossing the bridge. Women and children were not.

16 Men who were considered to be eligible for mobilisation, call-up, arrests,

17 things like that.

18 Nothing was done in an organised manner. Everyone decided on his

19 own whether he wanted to go or not. Nobody told anyone go or do not go.

20 Whoever went went of his own free will and with his own responsibility

21 involved. People could get killed. People could get wounded. But I

22 don't think anybody got wounded or anybody got killed. And not very many

23 people crossed the bridge actually, because once the shooting had started,

24 they were quite afraid to actually start crossing the bridge.

25 Q. Thank you.

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown some photographs from

2 P14? I'm not sure how the exhibit ends, but the unmarked version. It's

3 P14A, I believe. And in particular, photos 34 and 35 from that bundle of

4 photographs, please.

5 A. Yes. That's the bridge across the Bosna to Prud, the one that was

6 destroyed. Here. You go from here to the other side.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Does the Court have the image?

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, now, because we had a blackout.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

10 Q. I can't really tell from looking at that photo, Mr. Izetbegovic,

11 if this was a bridge that was suitable for vehicles or not or whether it

12 was just for foot traffic. Can you tell us?

13 A. This bridge was primarily for pedestrians and for smaller

14 vehicles, passenger vehicles. But also, people could not go in different

15 directions across the bridge. So then if one vehicle were crossing it,

16 another one would have to wait in order to move in a different direction.

17 Q. Thank you. Can the witness --

18 JUDGE MUMBA: I just want to be clear. This is the bridge across

19 the Bosna River?

20 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll ask the witness.

21 A. Across the Bosna River, yes.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

23 MR. DI FAZIO:

24 Q. Thank you. And if you could just now look at photograph number 34

25 from that bundle.

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1 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the usher be instructed, please.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

3 Q. Photograph 34 from the bundle.

4 A. I have the same photograph. The same photograph --

5 Q. I do apologise. I read the number out wrong. 35 - I'm sorry -

6 can you tell us what that view depicts?

7 A. Everything that reminds me of my childhood. This is the house of

8 Dusan Simic, where we spent quite a bit time in this area here, because

9 this is also where there was a soccer field, a small soccer field, and

10 that's where we played.

11 Q. Just point with the baton on the photograph, Mr. Izetbegovic, so

12 that we can understand what you're saying.

13 A. Yes. Yes. This here is the house that I mentioned a minute ago.

14 This is an old gentleman, Dusan Simic. When we were all children, we went

15 to his place to pick plums. Of course, we did it without him knowing it.

16 Then also there is a nice small levelled area here, a small soccer

17 field where many talents first started playing soccer, football.

18 This building is the late Mrs. Sofija Mihajlovic's house. She was

19 my teacher in elementary school for four years. A lovely lady. She was

20 of the Orthodox faith. Very capable, very clever. Many people, all

21 honest people, in Samac hold her in high regard.

22 And then over here, this is where Mr. Borislav -- Mr. Borislav

23 Pisarevic was president. This is the courthouse.

24 Here on the left-hand side, this is Mr. Tihic's house. I don't

25 know. About a year or two before the war, he bought it.

1 Q. Thank you. Could I just ask you to look --

2 JUDGE MUMBA: I see Mr. Pantelic on his feet. Yes?

3 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, we have here one good man, one honest

4 man. We have the victim here, the witness. I didn't react several

5 minutes ago when my learned friend cut off his explanations. These are

6 memories of everything that he -- he suffered a lot, and I think this

7 Tribunal should give the opportunity to the witness to express his

8 feelings and memories, memories regarding to this particular case. And it

9 is not the proper way. Sorry. Thank you.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Pantelic. I'm sure the Prosecution

11 have understood that, but I wasn't aware that Mr. Prosecutor did cut the

12 witness.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: I didn't interrupt his reminiscences. He came to a

14 break. He stopped talking about his reminiscences, and I was going to

15 continue with the evidence. I didn't seek to do that at all. That's just

16 not the case at all.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you.

18 MR. PANTELIC: If I may, I have an example here in transcript when

19 this witness was cut in -- during the explanation about the TO and all

20 other relevant events, and Mr. di Fazio said, "Thank you, thank you, thank

21 you." I mean, it's obviously cut.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. That is understood.

23 MR. PANTELIC: Excuse me, Mr. Izetbegovic.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Izetbegovic, I'd just like you to look at a further

1 photograph. That's F36 in the bundle and F37. Let's look at F36 first.

2 Do you recognise that building?

3 A. Yes, I recognise that building. That's the building that I spoke

4 of a minute ago. Actually, this is, like, two buildings. They lean

5 against each other. So they are attached, actually. All this was

6 Mr. Tihic's, and it is now. As a matter of fact, I hear that they

7 returned it to him.

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. He had a -- there was a cafe here, and then he was here, and then

10 this was a shop.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 A. This is nothing else I can say in relation to this photograph.

13 Q. Thank you. Just look over at the next photograph, please, or,

14 rather, if it could be placed on the ELMO, F37. I think there are some

15 words there that -- "Advoka," which I assume means lawyer. I think you

16 can even make out Mr. Tihic's name.

17 A. Yes. Yes. This is the middle part of his offices. This is where

18 he had his law office.

19 Q. Okay. And finally, just to -- one last question on these

20 photographs. Could you now go back to 35, F35. Rather, two questions on

21 this last set of photographs. If you look at the extreme left hand of the

22 photograph, you will see the side of a white building. Is that

23 Mr. Tihic's office?

24 A. Yes, that is Mr. Tihic's office.

25 Q. Thank you. And finally, this view that we're looking at in F35,

1 if you look the other way, what would you see?

2 A. The other way? Opposite? This building; is that what you mean?

3 Q. No. No. The photograph's taken, obviously, looking down that

4 road toward Mr. Tihic's office and the house of your old schoolteacher.

5 If you turned and looked in the opposite direction, backwards, what would

6 you see?

7 A. This is the road towards Prud, towards the bridge, that leads to

8 the bridge. And here, this house on the right-hand side, I already said

9 what I saw there. If necessary, I can repeat it.

10 Q. No, no, no. That's okay. All I want to know is this: If you

11 walk down that road, do you get to the bridge to Prud? Walk down that

12 road away from --

13 A. Yes, yes, yes, to the bridge to Prud.

14 Q. Thank you. I've finished the photographs for the moment.

15 JUDGE SINGH: Can I please just ask one question in

16 clarification? You see in these photographs the buildings are damaged.

17 When did this damage take place?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assume that they were damaged

19 during the war. All of them were normally appointed buildings.

20 Mr. Tihic, as a matter of fact, renovated that building of his and spent a

21 lot of money. And also the house of the late Mr. Dusan Simic was also

22 very well appointed. Somebody else -- somebody else then bought it and

23 renovated it too. I'm sorry, I seem to be forgetting things.

24 Then also the late Mrs. Mihajlovic's house was also a

25 well-appointed house. There was a shop downstairs and there were

1 apartments upstairs. There weren't any houses in Samac at all that were

2 so dilapidated. All of them were nice looking, very well appointed. At

3 that time I was in charge of an investment related to the renovation of

4 town and the entire infrastructure and I knew what the area looked like.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we take our break, Counsel? It's 11.00. We

6 shall resume at 11.30 hours.

7 --- Recess taken at 11.04 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution is continuing

10 examination-in-chief.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

12 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic, just before the break you told us that you went

13 to the bridge to Prud, and then we looked at some photographs, and you

14 were describing the events of the night of the 16th and 17th of April.

15 After you had been to the bridge that leads to Prud, where did you go?

16 A. I took a car there. My son-in-law's daughter, a colleague, had

17 brought it. I took the car. I went around Samac to see what was going

18 on. I went to the local community building.

19 Q. Did you see any soldiers or military -- apparent military types in

20 the streets?

21 A. Well, there were people running around left and right. There were

22 civilians with white armbands. I didn't see soldiers yet at the time.

23 Q. Did you recognise any of these civilians with white armbands?

24 A. Yes. Well, we know one another quite well in Samac. It's a small

25 place, and we know each other.

1 Q. That's what I mean. My question is: Were they apparently locals,

2 the people with the white armbands?

3 A. Mainly locals.

4 Q. Did you eventually go to your daughter's apartment?

5 A. No. I went to the local community, and there I found the

6 secretary of the local community, Velasevic, Jelko. He was the technical

7 secretary there. I told him to convene a meeting of the Executive Board

8 urgently, given the events that were taking place.

9 Q. Were you ever able to go ahead and convene that meeting?

10 A. No. There were only three of us. They didn't come.

11 Mr. Velasevic came; Franjo Barukcic came, the late Franjo Barukcic. And

12 we didn't do anything really. We parted ways. I contacted the president,

13 but he didn't accept to come. We parted and I went home.

14 Q. Which president? Who are you talking about when you say, "I

15 contacted the president, but he didn't accept to come"? Who are you

16 talking about there?

17 A. It was -- the president of the Assembly was Ilija Ristic, but the

18 president of the Executive Council - I don't know the exact term. It was

19 a long time ago - his name was Safet Hadzialijagic. His nickname was

20 "Pop." He didn't respond to my invitation for him to come. But

21 Mr. Ristic, I didn't even look for him any longer. He was also president

22 of the town organisation of the party, of the SDS.

23 Q. Thank you. Okay. Now, you say you parted and went home. Which

24 particular home did you go to?

25 A. I left the car at the end of my son-in-law's Mato Rukavina

1 [phoen], and then I went home. I saw the children, which was most

2 important of all for me. And my daughter gave me the keys of her

3 apartment, and then I went to her apartment.

4 Q. What was your reason in going to her apartment?

5 A. Because I was afraid of going home. My house is very near the SUP

6 and the municipality and the TO. I didn't dare go further than that,

7 because some units or forces of the 4th Detachment and the -- what we

8 called wild units had already occupied SUP, the municipality, the TO. All

9 that had already been occupied.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: I'd like to show the witness a map of Bosanski

11 Samac. If Your Honours please, it's, I believe, P9, and there is a large

12 cardboard map depicting --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Is that the one with the large version?

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, the large version. And I think the Chamber

15 wanted me to produce smaller copies so each witness could mark parts of

16 it.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: So I now produce a small A3- or A4-sized version of

19 that map. And I have a pen here which I'd like to hand to the usher.

20 Q. Just have a look at that map. And if we could focus or get into

21 the centre of the screen the actual town itself, because that's the only

22 part that I'm really going to ask questions about. Not the outlying

23 areas, the actual built-up area of the town.

24 Did you see all right, Mr. Izetbegovic? Can you see the map?

25 A. It is quite far from me. I have to change my glasses. That's

1 better.

2 Q. Can you just indicate on the map where in the town the SUP and the

3 TO are located? Could you just mark it and mark it with the number 1,

4 just a small number, to indicate approximately where the SUP and the TO

5 are located. Just with the number "1."

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Thank you. That's okay. Could I ask you to mark again with the

8 number 2 the area where your daughter's apartment was.

9 A. I note that the map is either too old or not everything is marked

10 in it. Just a part of this town is in it, and part of it is empty. So I

11 will approximately show where this should be located.

12 Q. Thank you. That's all I ask, Mr. Izetbegovic, just an approximate

13 idea of where it was located. Just with the number "2."

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Thank you.

16 A. This is the stadium street. This is what we called it. And here

17 I see the stadium is drawn into the map. And this is where she used to

18 live, if this is the stadium.

19 Q. And what about your own home, the family home that you've had for

20 generations? Where was that located? And if you could mark that with the

21 number "3."

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Thank you.

24 A. Something like that.

25 Q. Thanks. I just wanted to get an approximate idea. Thank you for

1 your assistance, Mr. Izetbegovic.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Can that particular map now be introduced into

3 evidence?

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number?

5 THE REGISTRAR: This version of P9 marked by Izebegovic shall be

6 marked for the record as Prosecutor's Exhibit P9C.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: I've finished with the map, and I've finished with

8 this -- the use of the ELMO.

9 Q. All right. Now, you've told us that you went to her apartment.

10 How long did you stay there?

11 A. Well, I stayed there until I was captured, arrested.

12 Q. Do you remember the date of your arrest and capture?

13 A. I think it was on the 19th, in the afternoon, late afternoon.

14 About 5.00 in the afternoon.

15 Q. Before we get to the arrest, I want to know what you did on the

16 17th, on the 18th, and part of the 19th. The first question is: Did you

17 remain at your daughter's apartment?

18 A. Well, events were evolving so quickly, and very serious and

19 strange things were happening, so I didn't dare go out.

20 Q. Were you able to see out of your daughter's apartment to -- as

21 best you could, see what was happening out on the streets?

22 A. Yes. I could see quite a lot of what was going on in the -- what

23 was happening in the streets. But you know how things happened in those

24 days: You just glimpsed behind the curtains and looked. I didn't even

25 dare move the curtains, not to have it noticed. I looked from the part

1 looking onto the yard. And the apartment is in that part of -- looking at

2 the yard.

3 The building of the neighbours of my daughter's, Mr. Bisic's, had

4 been shelled with shells. And I saw people I used to know, and they were

5 entering the town and looking for something. I was surprised that

6 these -- some of these people dared, allowed themselves the luxury, in

7 fact.

8 Q. I don't understand the latter part of your answer,

9 Mr. Izetbegovic. First of all, you say that you saw people that you used

10 to know. Who were they, and what do you mean when you say that they

11 "allowed themselves the luxury"?

12 A. Well, it's so-called luxury. It's, in fact, a shame that people

13 went to people's apartments and searched for something which would be

14 gainful for them. I would not like to mention the names of the people

15 there. I'm not scared, but I was surprised.

16 One of them was Veselin Ivkovic. I worked with him for quite some

17 time. He was a professor at school. He was a football club coach, and he

18 was together with -- president with Mr. Pisarevic. We worked together for

19 quite some time. And I was very surprised to see him there. True enough,

20 he was wearing the white armband.

21 And there were some policemen who are not very relevant in this

22 part. They were not very well-respected citizens.

23 I then saw in the yard Mr. Fadil Topcagic as he was breaking a

24 white Golf vehicle. I don't know whom it belonged to. He was kicking it,

25 trying to break it. And then since he didn't manage to do so, he went

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1 away.

2 Q. I'd like to know a bit more about what Mr. Topcagic was doing.

3 First of all, how was he dressed?

4 A. Civilian clothes and the white armband.

5 Q. I'd just like to be a bit more precise about the Golf. You say he

6 was kicking it and trying to break it but didn't manage and went away. I

7 don't understand. Was he just kicking the car, or did he --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the Prosecutor please speak into the

9 microphone. The interpreters can no longer hear him.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: I do apologise.

11 Q. I don't understand if he was merely kicking the vehicle itself or

12 whether he had some apparent ulterior motive. Can you just give us some

13 more details on this?

14 A. Well, of course he had a reason. He kicked the lock of the car.

15 He was unable to open the door. And his intention was to take it, to

16 seize the vehicle. And he didn't succeed in doing that, and that is why

17 he left. Later, I don't know what happened. In the morning, I saw that

18 the Golf was no longer there.

19 Q. Thank you. Were you alone in your daughter's apartment?

20 A. Yes, I was alone at the beginning, and then I tried to go out to

21 the upper floor because I saw that a person that I knew was going into his

22 own apartment. So I left my daughter's apartment and went to see what was

23 going on in the street. His name was Safet Hadzialijagic. His nickname

24 was "Coner." And he had to go out every two hours because he was -- he

25 had to check the installations, the facilities. He was in charge of the

1 waterworks. He walked in and out, and I managed to learn many things from

2 him, until he himself had been arrested. He hadn't been arrested yet.

3 Well, they arrested me in his apartment, and he was arrested in the

4 flat -- that was the flat above my daughter's apartment.

5 Q. You said that you were arrested on the 19th. I'd like to ask you

6 to move to the actual arrest itself. First of all, who were you arrested

7 by? How did you first become aware that you were about to be arrested?

8 A. While I was in my daughter's apartment for the two days, I

9 listened to the radio. I had turned down the volume. It was a transistor

10 radio and I was able to hear what was going on. I listened to Radio Samac

11 and I had heard that Mr. Tihic had been arrested in the apartment of

12 Mr. Boro Pisarevic. Then I heard some other details, so it was very

13 dangerous to go out into the street.

14 I went up to Hadzialijagic's apartment. We talked very briefly.

15 There were quite a number of people in his flat, mainly women and

16 children. And once we -- there was much commotion. We noticed much

17 commotion and shouting: "Everyone should go out into the corridor. Who

18 remains in his apartment will be shot." So I went out. Before that, when

19 I went to Coner's apartment, Topolovac, a former commander of the police,

20 saw me. And after that, quite shortly after that, they came. He probably

21 informed them that I was there, and in an hour's time they were already in

22 the surrounding buildings and a raid was carried out.

23 These were unknown people that had never been to Samac, people who

24 did not speak the language that we speak. They speak a language spoken in

25 Serbia, the Ekavica dialect. They were dressed in camouflage uniforms.

1 They had black caps on their heads. They were armed to the teeth. Their

2 faces were painted with different colours. And they started shouting and

3 shrieking in an abnormal way. We all had to go out into the corridor, and

4 there I saw that this was the end, when they came up to me. They started

5 taking information about ourselves. They asked me what my name was, and

6 then people around me knew us. And then the person who was identifying me

7 was called Laki and Sumar -- Lugar, actually.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 A. Then immediately I was handcuffed.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 A. Laki said, "We are looking for you," and he looked at a list and

12 he said, "There you are." And then he said, "You are the golden hen that

13 lays golden eggs."

14 Q. Good. Thank you very much, Mr. Izetbegovic. This list -- I'm

15 interested in this list, okay? Did you actually see it?

16 THE INTERPRETER: Prosecutor please speak into the microphone.

17 MR. DI FAZIO:

18 Q. The list, did you actually see it?

19 A. No. It wasn't a written list. It was written on a piece of

20 yellow paper, and there were five or six important names. So I was read

21 off from that list, and I was unable to see anything else that he read,

22 and he turned away.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, you said that your name was on the list. Did you

24 see any other names that were on the list? If you didn't, let us know. I

25 just want to know: Did you or did you not see any other names other than

1 yours?

2 A. No, I did not see the names. I didn't even see my own name. He

3 read out my name, and I don't -- even if I were able to, I wouldn't have

4 been in a condition to read that now. I was not interested in seeing the

5 name.

6 Q. Just to be absolutely a hundred per cent crystal clear, you had

7 never -- I want to know if you had ever been introduced to these people or

8 if they had any way of knowing about you, knowing your name.

9 A. No. I had never seen them before in my life, especially not they

10 me. They received a list of persons that they had to find and they found

11 them.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

13 [Prosecution counsel confer]

14 MR. DI FAZIO:

15 Q. Okay. Now, you've told us about the arrest. What happened after

16 the men had chosen you and selected you?

17 A. Then they separated me from the others, started beating me. They

18 took me to an apartment, the apartment of Mijo Brandic. He was a

19 neighbour of Coner's. Since that door was locked, he shot a few bullets

20 to break the lock. And then he took me inside with the handcuffs on my

21 hands and he told me, "Look for bombs. If you don't find any, I'll kill

22 you."

23 Then, with my hands handcuffed, I searched the cupboards. Well, I

24 was aware that I wouldn't -- that I couldn't find a bomb there. I dragged

25 the whole thing out. Then the person asked me, "Haven't you found it

1 yet?" Then torture really started. I was hit with a pistol on the head

2 and he took me by the hand and asked me where my daughter's apartment was,

3 and I said, "Downstairs, below that apartment."

4 Then they took me to the apartment and they started carrying out

5 all their intentions. They beat me ferociously with their hands, with

6 their feet. They demolished the whole apartment. They were searching for

7 gold. They asked me, "Where did you leave the gold?" And I told them I

8 never possessed any gold. Then they saw a ring on my finger. They told

9 me to take it off. I was very much afraid. It's a family ring, inherited

10 from my grandmother. I was not able to take it off quickly. He took a

11 knife and he said, "Don't worry. I'll cut off your finger." So I don't

12 know how I managed to take it off my finger and give it to him.

13 Then he hit me and asked again, "Where is the gold?" "I don't

14 have gold," I said. "This is all I have. The money -- I don't have

15 money." And then he asked, "What did you pay the weapons from? Where is

16 the money from the weapons?" "From what weapons?" I didn't know why.

17 Then he hit me really hard on my teeth and on my nose, and I fell. Then

18 he got me up and pushed me into a chair, an armchair. And then he pressed

19 a pillow on my head and cocked his gun, and he said, "If you don't tell me

20 where the money is by the time I count to 3, I will shoot and kill you."

21 I knew that I had nothing to say. I waited for him to count until 3, and

22 all sorts of events went through my mind at the time. I don't know how I

23 was able to sit and just experience all of that. Then he fired. He put a

24 pillow on my head so as not to hear this shot, and he said, "Not to see

25 how you're being killed and not to hear the shot." Then he fired and he

1 said, "The bullet is no good," and then he tried again another bullet.

2 And then he told me, "None of these bullets are any good, so you're

3 lucky." Then he started kicking me, hitting me with his hands, with a

4 pistol on my head. He didn't even look where he was hitting me until he

5 had finished his business.

6 Then they splashed water on me and then they got me up again and

7 they took me downstairs. Downstairs there was a police Golf, and in the

8 Golf there were two policemen. They put me inside, and they said, "Now

9 you're going to show us where your house is." They took me home and they

10 broke into it. I entered the house. We all entered together. "Where is

11 the gold now?" "I haven't got any gold. How could I have any gold?" I

12 kept saying that: "How could I have any gold?" It was terrible.

13 Then the worst of all began. They started breaking everything,

14 smashing everything, cutting couches, sofas. He took a knife, and he was

15 cutting up the couches and sofas, looking for gold. On the shelves, I had

16 a small bust made of bronze, Tito's bust. He took the bust, and went he

17 hit me in the ribs with it, he had broken two of my ribs then.

18 He said, "What do you need this dead man for? Why are you still

19 carrying him around and keeping him?" And he swore at me. They also

20 found some other pictures, and they trampled on them with their feet.

21 They took me again to the refrigerator and to the freezer box

22 where we had prepared things for the winter. Well, not exactly for the

23 winter, but there was lots of food there, frozen chickens, frozen meat.

24 Everybody did that. It was like small stocks that you would keep in your

25 household. They started hitting me on the head with these frozen

1 chickens, and one of them was swearing at me and saying, "Look at all the

2 stuff that Alija has packed away for you and the poor people are

3 starving."

4 And then they saw a barrel. And what was in the barrel? There

5 was cabbage in the barrel, sauerkraut. There was still some left, and he

6 started taking -- and then he said I should start taking out the

7 sauerkraut, the cabbage, one by one, because the gold was there. "Well,

8 there's no there." "How come there's no gold?" "Well, there is no

9 gold."

10 And then they put my head into this liquid in which sauerkraut is

11 kept, and then they said, "Now you're going to talk." They kept my head

12 down under for a long time. I thought I'd suffocate. And when I started

13 shaking my hands and arms, then they got my -- and legs, they got my head

14 out and they said, "You are going to speak up after all."

15 When they realised that there was nothing -- they had beaten me so

16 badly. I'd never seen anything like that in all my life, that somebody

17 could be beaten that badly and yet walk. I had never heard of such a

18 thing. I had never seen such a thing.

19 They took me outside. My son-in-law was a huntsman, and he had

20 trophy weapons that was kept there in our house. These were hunting guns,

21 actually. They put all these hunting guns on my back, and then I had to

22 carry that on foot all the way to the SUP building. They were walking on

23 two sides of the sidewalk. Five were on one side and five were on the

24 other side with weapons pointed at me. I was walking along the middle of

25 the street, and this Laki was walking behind me and saying, "See?" And he

1 was swearing at me. "See how many weapons Alija has bought for him." And

2 then he cursed, "And you haven't got anything to defend yourself with."

3 However, they were not war weapons. These were trophies only. Hunting

4 trophies for big game, small game, because my son-in-law was a passionate

5 huntsman, and everything that he had he invested in that.

6 Since I was wet -- I was all wet because they were splashing water

7 on me, and then also the liquid from the sauerkraut, and he was shouting

8 and saying, "See who led you. See how frightened he is that he wet his

9 pants. He's all wet from fear." So that's what they did. They did

10 whatever they wanted to do.

11 When we got near the SUP building, then he, Laki, caught up with

12 me slowly and said, "If you utter a single word as to what we did to you,

13 I'm going to kill you with my own hand." And I said, "Who am I going to

14 utter these words to when I see what is going on and what I got into?"

15 They took me to the SUP. At the door, Todorovic, nicknamed

16 "Stiv," Steven, he was standing at the door. Even in movies dealing with

17 the Middle Ages did -- I never saw things like that. I didn't see

18 henchmen standing that way. His executioners. He started hitting me,

19 kicking me. I don't know what all he was doing to me.

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Izetbegovic. Can I ask you now to just pause

21 there. Thank you for your description of those events.

22 Were you -- did you have blood on you?

23 A. Oh, yes. I was all soaked in blood, and I was all wet. And I had

24 noticed by that time that I didn't have a few teeth either. I don't know

25 how they had fallen out.

1 Q. Were your clothes intact, or were they torn?

2 A. Well, I think so, since they were dragging me and everything. I

3 think that the buttons had also fallen off. I was wearing light clothes.

4 I didn't have anything proper on me, because I was even in my slippers

5 because I was at the apartment. I didn't even have time to put my shoes

6 on. So when they were taking me, I was actually walking in my slippers.

7 All was wet, blood soaked. And also I was bleeding from everywhere,

8 mostly from the nose and the mouth.

9 Q. When you were dragged through the streets of the town, were there

10 any townspeople about to see what was happening?

11 A. There were, on windows.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 A. On windows of the buildings that were all around.

14 Q. Now, you had got to the point where you started to describe your

15 arrival at the SUP and your encounter with Mr. Todorovic. I'd like you

16 now to tell the Chamber what happened upon your arrival and your encounter

17 with Mr. Todorovic.

18 A. He started beating me ruthlessly, and he said, "Are you bothered

19 by this uniform?" And then he was cursing my mother, and he said all

20 sorts of things in the most vulgar way, in the most vulgar way this can be

21 put.

22 At one moment, I did say to him that what I did to him, even his

23 own brother would not do to him. I appointed him general manager of the

24 company where I was. Although I can say here and now, from here, that he

25 was not fit to be a doorkeeper. And I'm surprised that the gentleman

1 appointed him chief of police when it is well known what kind of person he

2 was.

3 He beat me, and I summoned up my courage and I thought, well, what

4 will be will be. And I said, "Please Todorovic, do not beat me, and

5 please take my handcuffs off." Because at that time I was still an

6 official. I was vice-president of some kind of small government, if there

7 was any respect for it. So I gave myself the right to say this. I also

8 had immunity in whatever, but when shooting starts, when a war starts,

9 then all of this stops.

10 He actually listened to that and did that, which surprised me. He

11 went silent, and he said to the policemen, "Take off his handcuffs."

12 He took me to a cell. He put me there. I asked him, "Could I

13 have a bit of water, please?" Believe me, he walked away and brought me

14 water in his own hands. I was astonished. On the one hand he was beating

15 me, and on the other hand this. I did not understand any of it.

16 They locked me up there, and that's where I stayed all the way

17 until night fell.

18 Q. Thank you. You said that you were surprised that the gentleman

19 appointed him chief of police when it was well known what kind of person

20 he was. What sort of gentleman or gentlemen are you referring to? Sorry,

21 which -- which gentleman and which gentlemen?

22 A. I did not appoint him. His qualities - although he got a

23 university degree, and I don't know how, he had studied for over a hundred

24 years - his qualities were not fit for him to be a doorkeeper and to count

25 the people who are entering a building, let alone become a chief of

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1 police. The gentlemen should know indeed what kind of a person should be

2 a chief of police. Mr. Zaric, in particular, should know what kind of a

3 person could hold that post. How he could accept that kind of a person

4 that has nothing in common with that kind of service, I mean ...

5 Q. Thank you. Now, you say that you were taken downstairs -- sorry,

6 taken to a cell, I should say, in the SUP. Did you remain in the SUP for

7 a period of time?

8 A. I stayed there until nightfall. Around 9.00 in the evening, they

9 came again to see me, to see whether there was anything wrong with me.

10 And then again they beat me. They beat me really bad. In the dark, I

11 could not see who was beating me and how he was beating, but there were

12 two of them.

13 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic, I'm going to ask you for details of what happened

14 in the SUP. I intend to fully get those details, but before I get on to

15 those details, I'd like the Chamber to know, to get a general picture of

16 your movements over the ensuing days, and therefore, I ask you: How long

17 were you actually kept in the building of the SUP?

18 A. I think that I stayed there for a week, if not even longer. Well,

19 we weren't even counting the days or the hours any longer. We were just

20 trembling and waiting when they would come back, when they would leave,

21 when all of that would be over. Some were taken out; others were brought

22 in. You know what it's like. Fear is fear --

23 Q. Thank you.

24 A. -- when there is terror like this.

25 Q. Thank you. You stayed there for a week. Where were you

1 transferred after that week? Where were you taken after that week?

2 A. After that, I was transferred to the Territorial Defence.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, the questions I'm going to ask you now are about

4 that first period of time when you were in the SUP and before you were

5 transferred to the Territorial Defence. Do you understand?

6 A. I understand.

7 Q. Thank you. You've already described two beatings that occurred on

8 the first day upon your arrival, the beating by Todorovic and the beating

9 by unknown men that night. Throughout the rest of the time that you were

10 in the SUP building, were you beaten again?

11 A. Yes, beaten badly. I think that that's where I fared the worst.

12 Q. Did anything happen to your teeth while you were in the SUP?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What happened?

15 A. Sumar, Lugar came. We usually say Sumar for a Lugar.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: It means forest-keeper.

17 A. And he came with some pliers. Not big pliers, shorter than this,

18 a little pointier but narrow ones that are really narrow at the top, and

19 then he -- this was an old rusty set of pliers. And he said, "Open your

20 mouth," and then he'd take out one or two of my teeth, whatever he wanted

21 to do. And then he would always say, "I don't want to pull them all out.

22 I want to have something to do tomorrow."

23 They did not put salt or hot peppers into my wounds, but I hear

24 that they did that to other people. This was while I was at the SUP.

25 MR. DI FAZIO:

1 Q. I don't want to dwell upon this, but I want the Chamber to get an

2 idea of what if felt like to have a tooth pulled with pliers. Can you

3 tell the Chamber?

4 A. Believe me, they do it so skilfully, better than any dentist. And

5 out of fear, you can't even feel the pain.

6 Q. Presumably there was blood.

7 A. Yes, yes. Everybody bleeds when his tooth is pulled out.

8 Q. Did your face swell up?

9 A. Well, I was all swollen because of the blows, because of the

10 beatings. I was all swollen. My eyes were swollen, and my mouth.

11 Everything was swollen. I could barely speak. I could barely talk. My

12 head was all beaten up, and it hurt all over.

13 Q. Were your teeth pulled only by Lugar?

14 A. Lugar is the only one who came to me. I don't know about the

15 others, who came to them. I was by myself in a cell at the SUP for quite

16 some time, so I didn't know what was going on in the Territorial Defence

17 and also in the SUP in that bigger hall where there are quite a few people

18 who were detained.

19 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Laki, Luki? I'm not quite sure how

20 to pronounce it, Luki or Laki.

21 A. I know him. He is the first one who captured me. And he always

22 kept coming back to me to finish off what he did not on the first day. He

23 did not have one finger. He was a blond man. He had a ruddy face. He

24 was rather heavily built, good looking.

25 Q. Did he do anything in respect of your teeth?

1 A. He was smashing them out with his fists, and whatever fell off,

2 fell off.

3 Q. You say that you were alone for the first -- the initial period of

4 time that you were in the SUP. During that period of time, could you

5 hear -- could you hear anything from inside your cell? Could you hear

6 events that were occurring in the building?

7 A. Well, there were quite a few rooms, and I felt that there were

8 other people who were detained in other rooms, especially during the

9 night. Nothing really meaningful happened during the day, but during the

10 night, they were beating people black and blue. Moans, screams, crying

11 could be heard from the other rooms. I even heard women's voices. I

12 don't know who these women were and what they were doing to them. It was

13 awful. It was awful. The night was unbearable.

14 Q. Were you ever beaten with objects?

15 A. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. Bear in mind I'm still talking about the initial period of time

17 that you were in the SUP. Were you ever beaten with objects in there?

18 A. Yes. Every one of them had some additional element of their own,

19 for beating, that is, in addition truncheons and I don't know what all.

20 The worst thing was that they used knives to threaten people. That was

21 the worst. They would take out a knife and put it under your throat.

22 "Which side do you want us to split your throat, from the front or the

23 back?" or "Do you want me to cut off your ear?" and things like that. It

24 was terrible, it was terrible, how people can do something like that.

25 Where were these people born? Where do they come from in order to be able

1 to think that way and to do things like that?

2 Q. During the period of time that you were in the SUP, before you

3 were transferred to the TO, were you ever moved around the building or

4 taken out of your cell?

5 A. Yes. One morning they came to pick me up, and they took me

6 upstairs to a cell of the head of the SUP. That's where I found Mr. Zaric

7 and Mr. Todorovic.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 A. There were some other men there whom I did not know.

10 Q. Thank you. I'm going to ask you about that episode that you've

11 just mentioned in due course, but I'd like to deal with that at a later

12 time, if we could, please.

13 Can I ask you this: Do you know a gentleman named Sarkanovic?

14 A. You mean Sarkanovic?

15 Q. Yes. I'm sorry for my pronunciation. Sarkanovic.

16 A. Yes, I know him very well.

17 Q. Did you see him in that initial period of time when you were in

18 the SUP and before being transferred to the TO?

19 A. I first saw him when he was interrogating me. He is the one who

20 processed me, so to speak. This was at the time when I was transferred to

21 the Territorial Defence and then returned to the SUP. And then my turn

22 came for interrogation, and he's the one who interrogated me.

23 Q. I see. Is it your position that this interrogation by Sarkanovic

24 occurred after you had been taken to the TO and then returned to the SUP?

25 A. Yes. Yes. Then, after both of these walks, so to speak, then he

1 took me for interrogation. And everybody was interrogated that way;

2 whoever was needed, that is.

3 Q. You earlier mentioned an occasion when you were taken upstairs to

4 a cell of the head of the SUP, and that's where you found Mr. Zaric and

5 Mr. Todorovic. Was that during the initial period of time that you were

6 at the SUP?

7 A. During the initial period.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: All right, then. Let's turn our attention to that.

9 Would Your Honours just bear with me for one moment, please.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

11 [Prosecution counsel confer]

12 MR. DI FAZIO:

13 Q. I just want the Chamber to get a clear idea of -- as clear an idea

14 of movements and locations for this occasion. Which floor were you on

15 when you were taken upstairs, the ground floor or basement? Can you

16 recall?

17 A. When they took me upstairs, they took me upstairs. The building

18 has only a ground floor and one floor above that. You mean when I went

19 and found Mr. Zaric and Mr. Todorovic there? Is that what you're

20 referring to?

21 First they brought me from the Territorial Defence and put me back

22 into the cell where I had been. That's when they brought me back. And

23 during the first time, I went up there, and during the -- towards the end

24 of my stay, I was -- I mean, I was in the basement. They took me there

25 once. They threw me in there.

1 Q. I'm referring to -- I want to be clear about this. I'm referring

2 to an encounter that you started to describe where Mr. Zaric and

3 Mr. Todorovic were present. This is the occasion I'm questioning you

4 about. You said that you were taken to the head of -- to the office of

5 the head of the SUP. Was that upstairs?

6 A. Yes, it was upstairs.

7 Q. Were you escorted?

8 A. Yes. Yes. A policeman brought me upstairs.

9 Q. I'd like you to keep your answers as short as possible now because

10 I need to direct you to what areas I'm interested in. Who was in the room

11 when you were first taken in? Just tell us who was in there; that's all I

12 want to know.

13 A. Zaric and Todorovic I recognised immediately. Believe me, there

14 were some other people there who I did not know. I did not dare look

15 around much. I was afraid. I was afraid of everything that surrounded

16 me.

17 Q. Okay. So we know you're in the room, Zaric is in the room,

18 Todorovic is in the room, and some other people.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Crni, or Crni?

21 A. I do. I think that he was there too. I think that he was there.

22 I did see him once, but I think that he was there too.

23 Q. You told us who was in the room. Could you see what they were

24 doing when you first arrived in the room? What was the scene that greeted

25 you? That's all I want to know, just the scene that greeted you when you

1 first arrived in the room.

2 A. There was a table full of food and drinks, roast chicken, cognac,

3 brandy, beer. They offered me to help myself, and then they told me, "Now

4 you must call the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina. You must call

5 Alija and tell him to do everything in his power to deblock Novi Grad near

6 Odzak." I had learned from them that the village was blocked.

7 Q. Yes. We'll get on to this in just a moment, but you're getting

8 ahead of me. You told us that there was food and drink; they offered you

9 some. Can you recall who offered you some?

10 A. Well, Todorovic spoke, and Zaric. They said, "Help yourself if

11 you're hungry." They offered me cigarettes even.

12 Q. Were you capable of eating?

13 A. No, I didn't feel like eating. I took a little because I was

14 afraid that if I didn't take anything, I would fare even worse. I took a

15 bite or two, but I had wounds in my mouth and my lips were swollen. So I

16 did take a bit, but I would have preferred if they hadn't offered me

17 anything.

18 Q. I've already asked you what you looked like on previous occasions,

19 but I need again to know your appearance at the time that you're standing

20 in the room with Mr. Todorovic and Mr. Zaric. You've already given us a

21 little bit of information about that. You say your lips were swollen.

22 Did you have swollen eyes?

23 A. Well, I felt all of this when I touched my face. I didn't have a

24 mirror to see myself. I felt that my eyes were half closed and swollen

25 and that my lips were swollen, but I didn't have a mirror to look at

1 myself in.

2 Q. Have you got any idea how many teeth had been pulled out of your

3 jaw by this stage?

4 A. Well, I had lost four or five teeth at that time. I don't know

5 how much I lost with the pliers of Lugar and some by being smashed, but

6 four or five teeth were missing.

7 Q. Now can we get on to conversation that occurred? You started to

8 give us an idea of what was said, because you told us that you were

9 instructed to call Alija and tell him to do everything in his power to

10 deblock Novi Grad, near Odzak. Can you tell us anything else that was

11 said to you? Please go through it chronologically, in chronological

12 sequence; and furthermore, if you can, tell us who said what to you.

13 A. Well, I appreciate your efforts to get to the truth, and I would

14 very much like to have the truth come out. I shall try to present this

15 chronologically and to tell you what happened. A lot of time has elapsed

16 since, and believe me, I don't like to remember that very much myself.

17 Q. Just do your best, Mr. Izetbegovic. That's all I ask. Just do

18 your best and tell us how you remember events.

19 A. Well, this will be perhaps easier, then, for me. They said that I

20 should call Alija. They connected with the Presidency. I was given the

21 telephone in my hand. I spoke. I called Alija. I told him what was

22 going on, what they told me to say. And he asked me where I was. I asked

23 him whether I was allowed to tell him. They said I could. I told him I

24 was arrested.

25 He asked about my family. I said I did not know. What was the

1 matter? And then I said what they told me to say, that Novi Grad should

2 be deblocked. And Alija responded by saying, "We have no communication

3 lines." They had been intentionally disrupted. And, "We have no

4 communications and we don't know what is going on down there." And then I

5 told him what was going on. He told me, "You tell Kljuic, because it is

6 his area."

7 I told Kljuic. Mr. Kljuic involved Pelivan, president -- prime

8 minister of Bosnia and Herzegovina [as interpreted]. I told them

9 everything, and they said that they promised to do everything in their

10 power.

11 Q. Thank you. Can I just pause there? Again, just for the sake of

12 certainty, this Alija, Alija who?

13 A. My relative, Izetbegovic, the president.

14 Q. Thank you. And you said that in the course of speaking, you were

15 asked where you were, and you asked him whether I was allowed to tell

16 him. Who did you ask if you were allowed to tell? That's what I want to

17 know.

18 A. I asked Todorovic at the moment, "Am I allowed to say where I

19 am?" And he said, "You're allowed."

20 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Mr. Deli Mustafic?

21 A. Of course. He was Minister of the Interior of Bosnia and

22 Herzegovina.

23 Q. Was he mentioned at all on this occasion?

24 A. There was another encounter of this kind up at the head of the

25 office. I don't know exactly. I think that his name was mentioned only

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1 when we were shooting that famous film directed by Mr. Zaric. Then they

2 told me that I would be exchanged, that I should change my clothes and

3 dress, and they put me before the cameras. I think that you have the

4 footage.

5 Q. Let's get back to the meeting that we've been talking about, the

6 phone call to Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, when Mr. Todorovic and Mr. Zaric were

7 present. Let's concentrate on that. That's all I'm asking about at this

8 stage, not any other occasions, just that meeting in the office. Okay?

9 Now --

10 A. It's all right. Now I remember. Mr. Todorovic was in fact the

11 main person who spoke on that occasion. He said that Deli Mustafic should

12 come to Pelagicevo and take along one of their persons, a writer, I think,

13 that he should be found in Sarajevo, and to be brought, and then at

14 Pelagicevo we would be exchanged. I would be exchanged against that man,

15 and then I would be freed and handed over to Deli Mustafic in Pelagicevo.

16 He told me what the password would be. The Black Eagle would be waiting

17 there. I didn't know who the Black Eagle was.

18 I transmitted that and they said to send a fax, that they were

19 agreeable to such an exchange. I was waiting upstairs until the fax

20 arrived with their consent, but the exchange was never carried out. Well,

21 mildly speaking, they cheated one another, and I stayed where I was. This

22 was a trap, and those upstairs -- actually, I was in fact bait for Deli

23 Mustafic to be brought.

24 Q. How long do you say that you remained in that room with the

25 negotiations with Alija Izebegovic and the fax and so on? How long did

1 the whole encounter take?

2 A. Well, perhaps a little more than half an hour from. When the

3 cable arrived, I was immediately brought back to the cell. Yes. At one

4 moment, Mr. Zaric asked Todorovic, "What will we do next with Izet?" And

5 he answered that it was his concern and that he shouldn't worry. I don't

6 know why Zaric asked that. I don't know what his intentions were.

7 Perhaps they were the best of intentions, I don't know. I cannot claim

8 that, but this was the answer, and I was returned to the cell.

9 Q. Thank you. Thank you for that information. I'd like to ask you

10 now about conditions generally in the SUP building. You've said that you

11 were imprisoned alone in a cell. Did that mean that you didn't have any

12 opportunity to see any of the other prisoners or ascertain who they were,

13 or were you able to assess, ascertain who they were?

14 A. Well, I was in strict isolation.

15 Q. Do I understand it, then, that you didn't -- until you were

16 transferred to the TO, the Territorial Defence building across the street,

17 you didn't really have any opportunity to see who else was imprisoned,

18 apart from hearing them, of course, when they were being beaten?

19 A. Yes, precisely that.

20 Q. Did you get any clues as to who the other prisoners might be by --

21 by voice, by people speaking to each other, by hearing them? Did that

22 give you any idea as to who they might be?

23 A. I heard different voices, from commands to cries, and I heard in

24 the corridor that commanders and policemen were consulting about various

25 tasks. I heard shouts, cries when the wild people came, and I think this

1 is to put it mildly. When they came to the building, there were terrible

2 shrieks. We didn't know who was shouting more, those who were -- whether

3 it was them or those who were beaten. I wonder if we could find 50 people

4 of this on the globe, the people who did it. I don't know why they did

5 this, who had brought them, what they wished to achieve there. I don't

6 know who these people were in those days when I was there.

7 Q. How were you fed while you were in the SUP?

8 A. At the beginning, when I was in isolation, some were taken to

9 lunch to the textile premises. I used to go there. At the beginning, I

10 didn't go there. I was brought a piece of bread and perhaps something

11 spread on it, and I would eat that. But I didn't feel like eating then.

12 I would be happy only to receive water.

13 Q. Do you know of a place in Bosanski Samac called the Utva factory?

14 A. Yes, of course.

15 Q. Did you ever go there during the period of time that you were in

16 the SUP?

17 A. Yes, they did.

18 Q. What for? Why did you go there?

19 A. We went to have lunch there.

20 Q. During that occasion, did you see any of the defendants there, the

21 occasions that you were at the Utva factory having lunch?

22 A. In Utva, I saw Dr. Blagoje Simic. He was in uniform. He passed

23 by me, and this really caused me pain. I would have preferred to have had

24 him trample over me than just pass by me, a person that I trusted, that I

25 contacted until the very last moment.

1 He was our guest at Bajram, with the entire board of the party in

2 our party. We offered them baklava and all other food that is served for

3 our festivity. We joked together. We would talk together. And I -- I am

4 surprised that he could have done this. If I were in his place, even if I

5 would have suffered death from this, I would have done everything to save

6 him. It was very difficult for me to watch him pass by me as simply I did

7 not exist, as if he didn't see me. That's what really made me feel bad.

8 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Izetbegovic, you said he was in uniform. Can

9 you please explain that?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was in camouflage uniform. I

11 don't know how to explain this further.

12 MR. DI FAZIO:

13 Q. I just need a couple more details about this encounter. When you

14 saw Mr. Blagoje Simic when he was in camouflage uniform, were you alone as

15 a prisoner or were there other prisoners in company with you? In other

16 words, were you alone or with a group of prisoners?

17 A. No, I wasn't alone. There were -- the number was such as the

18 number that could fit in the vehicle when we were taken to lunch.

19 Mr. Tihic was there, and he felt very bad about all this. We

20 believed in Simic. If nothing else, we believed in his intellect and in

21 all of that. His family did not deserve to have such a member like him,

22 because his family is an honourable family.

23 Q. You've already described for us twice now the condition -- how you

24 looked. I don't want you to go into the details again, but did you

25 essentially look the same when you were taken to lunch at the Utva

1 factory, the injuries you've described, the condition that you've

2 described, the blood and so on? I just need to know yes or no.

3 A. Yes, because it was like that. I was taken every night, and these

4 wounds simply could not heal.

5 Q. What about these other prisoners who were taken to lunch with

6 you? What did they look like?

7 A. Well, we looked more or less the same. Some looked worse, some

8 looked better.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I've dealt with this topic

10 now, and I believe there's something that counsel want to raise with the

11 Chamber.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: So perhaps if this witness could be released, this

14 might be an appropriate moment to deal with that other matter.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will adjourn the proceedings, and the

16 witness will be released now, and we will come back on Tuesday, 16th of

17 October, 0930 hours, when the proceedings will continue.

18 We will have a few housekeeping matters to deal with before 1.00.

19 So can the witness please be released.

20 [The witness stands down]

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Before we say anything, I wanted to remind

22 Mr. Lukic on the English translations for the lists, the exhibits that

23 were produced. They should get the certified translations.

24 I was informed that there was something the Defence wanted to

25 raise.

1 MS. BAEN: Your Honour, this morning before you came into the

2 courtroom, this issue just arose, and I wanted to ask some assistance or

3 some guidance from you, because I believe you may have dealt with this

4 issue before.

5 In talking to Mr. di Fazio about the upcoming weeks and what the

6 schedule would be for our witnesses, I was informed that the schedule was

7 going to change due to the fact that some of the these victims are

8 testifying -- have filed lawsuits in the United States arising out of the

9 facts of this case. And someone told me that I believe that Your Honour

10 had been involved in another case where this may have happened.

11 What I would like some guidance on is obviously this

12 information -- the petition filed in the lawsuit, at the very least, is

13 material to the Defence since these same witnesses who will be testifying

14 will be -- in the United States will be testifying here. So we're making

15 a request, actually -- well, first of all, the lawsuits were filed, I

16 understand, against prison -- prison guards, not against any of the

17 defendants in this case. Therefore, it's arguably mitigating information

18 or exculpatory evidence. So we're making a specific request for any

19 information the Prosecution may have with respect to these lawsuits under

20 the Rule 66 -- 68, Your Honour.

21 Furthermore, we make a order for this information to be provided

22 to us under Rule 66(B), because this information is under the control of

23 the Prosecutor and material to the Defence.

24 So that's really our request, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: So I would like to hear the Prosecution over this --

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: -- if they are ready with the answer now.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I can give an answer now. I don't know all

4 the facts as I stand here. I know that this lawsuit is being undertaken.

5 I've been informed of that. I can't tell you precisely who is a plaintiff

6 and who is a defendant, how many people are involved in the proceedings.

7 I don't even know where in the United States the suit is being conducted.

8 I thought it was California, but my colleague Ms. Reidy tells me it may be

9 Georgia, but I just don't know the details.

10 I can go back to my office and I can get whatever details I do

11 have - and they are few - and I can immediately provide them to the

12 Defence. That's not a problem at all. So I can easily comply with the

13 request as it's framed so far.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Yes.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: What I don't have, though, is any sort of detailed

16 information, any of the statements that witnesses might have given to the

17 court in the United States.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Is the Prosecutor involved? Is the Prosecutor of

19 the Tribunal involved?

20 MR. DI FAZIO: No, no, no, no, no. It is a completely unrelated,

21 separate action, civil action, not a criminal charge, a civil action that

22 is being conducted in the United States.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: I see.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: I told Ms. Baen that it involved some people who

25 were incarcerated in Bosanski Samac seeing someone who had been a guard

1 there in Bosanski Samac. It was apparently some sort of a chance

2 encounter in a car park, and that resulted in a civil suit, and that's

3 really all I know.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because I was wondering if the Prosecutor is

5 involved and whether the Prosecutor would have custody of any documents

6 that those people are using.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: No. No.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: That's why I was asking.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: That's not the case at all. There has been no

10 exchange -- well, no provision of material by the Office of the Prosecutor

11 to the American courts or the American counsel at all --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: -- as far as I'm aware, and I would be extremely

14 surprised if I was wrong on that. But I'm pretty sure that that's the

15 position.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: If my learned friend Ms. Baen wants more

18 information, however, about the -- what's going on in the United States,

19 then she, of course, is free and the Defence, of course, is free to make

20 their own inquiries. As far as evidence gathering is concerned, that's

21 something that would -- the Prosecution does not want to undertake at this

22 stage.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Yes. As long as we've been informed that the

24 Prosecutor of the Tribunal is not involved at all.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: No.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Then we know how to handle the matter. Yes.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I think my learned colleague Mr. Weiner

3 says -- informs me of this: Some of the witnesses in our case will be

4 called as witnesses in that case in the United States, and in fact --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: They are going in their individual capacities as

6 persons concerned with whatever is being undertaken in the United States.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, yes, yes. We have nothing --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: They're not going there as your witnesses.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: No, not at all. They're going there entirely in

10 their private capacity. We have absolutely no control over them or sought

11 to have any control over them, and we have no arrangement with the lawyers

12 conducting the case.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: The only effect of that, of course, is that it's

15 going to affect our witness list and the order in which we call witnesses

16 and because of the fact that they're going in the United States precisely

17 at the period of time when we would have liked to called them in this

18 case. So that's the only connection.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Is there any -- yes, Ms. Baen.

20 MS. BAEN: I didn't want to imply that Mr. di Fazio was holding

21 anything back from us. We've worked very well together, and that's not a

22 problem.

23 The issue here is -- and I know he has no documents in his custody

24 or - in his custody right now. He said if he got them, he would certainly

25 turn them over. The issue here is these are his witnesses, so we can't

1 talk to them to find out where to go. I mean, we will have -- definitely

2 have our investigators look for this information in the United States -

3 I'm going back next week - but these witnesses are under the Prosecution's

4 control, so therefore, there's no way for us to get this information. The

5 only way -- the only person who can get this information is the

6 Prosecutor. So that's the --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: What type of information do you want from these

8 witnesses?

9 MS. BAEN: Well, if they testify -- obviously if these witnesses

10 give -- or give sworn testimony in -- deposition testimony or trial

11 testimony, we -- that's certainly material to the Defence to have to

12 cross-examine the --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: It's up to you to get it from the court there.

14 MS. BAEN: We have no idea what court it's in. I'm simply just

15 asking them to ask their witness where--

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Then I don't think this matter is ripe for

17 discussion, because you don't also know where the -- you don't even know

18 where the court is they are appearing.

19 MS. BAEN: Exactly.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: And even though they are the Prosecution witnesses,

21 they are entitled in their own capacity to start an action anywhere in the

22 world.

23 MS. BAEN: Certainly, and I totally agree with that. What my

24 point is is you're right, we don't know where it is. The only person who

25 can find out is the Prosecutor. All he has to do is just ask his witness,

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1 "Where is this lawsuit?" tell us that, and I'll send my investigator to

2 go get everything. That's all. Because --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: If you're interested, why don't you find out?

4 MS. BAEN: I didn't think I was allowed to talk to his witnesses.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, not from his witnesses.

6 MS. BAEN: How?

7 JUDGE MUMBA: From the court.

8 MS. BAEN: We don't know what court. It could be anywhere in the

9 United States.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Then why don't we wait, then? Why don't you

11 wait?

12 MS. BAEN: Wait for?

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Because I thought these would be -- I don't know.

14 Maybe they will be private proceedings. I thought they would be public.

15 MS. BAEN: They should be public.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: And then anybody can get the information.

17 MS. BAEN: As long as we know where the court is.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: You will know once the proceedings start, won't

19 you?

20 MS. BAEN: I'm sorry, we don't know the name of the case. We

21 don't know the -- who is involved, nothing. All they have to do is ask

22 these witnesses where their lawsuits are filed as a result of --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. All right. Since the Prosecutor has

24 said if they have any information, they will be able to inform you, then

25 we'll leave it at that. Okay?

1 MS. BAEN: Thank you.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other matters? Any other matters from the

3 Defence?

4 MR. PANTELIC: Yeah, Madam President. We already raised that

5 issue, my learned colleague Mr. Zecevic - I think it was two days

6 before - about the contact between two OTP witnesses, Mr. Lukac and

7 Mr. Izetbegovic. And you very clearly instructed the Prosecution not

8 to --

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, yes. That was done, and then the matter is

10 also in the hands of the Victims and Witnesses Unit, and we will get a

11 report.

12 MR. PANTELIC: The problem is, Madam President, if you allow me,

13 that it just happened yesterday again.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, again yesterday.

15 MR. PANTELIC: These two witnesses were seen --

16 JUDGE MUMBA: That was yesterday, the 4th.

17 MR. PANTELIC: -- were seen together explaining something,

18 walking, and I have --

19 JUDGE MUMBA: The two witnesses, who and who?

20 MR. PANTELIC: Mr. Lukac, who was just excused, and

21 Mr. Izebegovic --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

23 MR. PANTELIC: -- who is here for examination-in-chief. And my

24 colleague Ms. Baen confirmed -- actually, she confirmed about that fact,

25 and she is ready to provide you with the additional information or

1 statement or whatever, because obviously it's happening. It is --

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Let me hear from her if she's the one who saw

3 them, yes.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Thank you, Madam President.

5 MS. BAEN: Your Honour, I'm staying in the Bel Air Hotel. And

6 yesterday I was leaving the hotel, and in the lobby and I saw Mr. Lukic

7 [sic]. He walked outside. Mr. Izebegovic was standing outside in front

8 of the building. The two of them joined together. They walked from the

9 Bel Air Hotel, towards the Tribunal, to the Dorint Hotel, took a left in

10 front of the Dorint and -- I mean, I walked after them to see what was

11 going on. I wasn't close enough to hear what they were talking about; I

12 only saw that they were talking. It was about 5.30 p.m. yesterday.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: And they went into the Dorint Hotel?

14 MS. BAEN: They did not go into the Dorint. They turned left at

15 the Dorint and started walking --

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Anyway, the point is, they were together.

17 MS. BAEN: Yes.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: You saw them together.

19 MS. BAEN: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: And they are both in the -- they are both in the Bel

21 Air Hotel?

22 MS. BAEN: I don't know if they're both staying there. They were

23 both there.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll inform the Victims and Witnesses Unit to

25 investigate.

1 MS. BAEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

3 Yes, Mr. Lukic.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just a small

5 correction. My colleague mentioned Mr. Lukac, but on page 63, line 14, it

6 is my surname that is mentioned instead of Mr. Lukac's, so could this

7 please be corrected, because I think that he was seen in conversation.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I'm sure Mr. Lukac will get in the witness box

9 very soon. I'm sure it's Mr. Lukac, yes.

10 MS. BAEN: Yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: The transcript should be corrected. It's Mr. Lukac.

12 MS. BAEN: That's correct, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: So the proceedings are adjourned until Tuesday, the

14 16th of October, at 0930 hours.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.10 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 16th day of

17 October, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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