Page 7478
1 Tuesday, 7 May 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 [The accused Milan Simic not present]
6 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case number
9 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav
10 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution is continuing with
12 examination-in-chief. Ms. Reidy.
13 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honour. May I address the Bench on
14 three brief matters before I continue with the examination?
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
16 MS. REIDY: The first is just to advise the Chamber and the
17 registrar that sitting with the Prosecution today is another lawyer from
18 the Prosecution's office, Mr. Jonathan Ratel, who is sitting with the
19 Prosecution in the absence of two of the other trial members.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. He's welcome.
21 MS. REIDY: Thank you. The second matter is that I've spoken with
22 the Defence counsel for Mr. Milan Simic concerning the matter of
23 identification, and my understanding from our discussions is that
24 Mr. Milan Simic concedes that were he to be in court, that this witness
25 would be able to -- identify him and to that extent waives his right to be
Page 7479
1 in court for court identification.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Zecevic.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honours. Good afternoon.
4 That is a correct assumption. That is what we have agreed. Thank you,
5 Your Honours.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: You're welcome.
7 Yes, you may proceed.
8 MS. REIDY: And finally, Your Honour, the third matter relates to
9 a number of documents which are the result of the proceedings against this
10 witness in the Bijeljina court. I indicated yesterday that we were
11 expecting the translations back. Those translations unfortunately are not
12 back. Mr. Novak has informed me that they were submitted to the
13 Translation Unit on the 25th of March, but due to the overwhelming tasks
14 imposed on the translation at the moment they're not available today.
15 They will be available by the end of the week. As a number of those
16 documents are of interest -- well, are of interest to the Prosecution and
17 the Defence to have the witnesses' comments on them, what we would propose
18 is that those documents which we wish the witness to testify about would
19 be placed on the ELMO by the witness in the B/C/S version, with a portion
20 highlighted. That small portion could be read into the record by the
21 witness and then commented upon with the final English version being
22 entered into evidence when it's available at the end of the week.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That's proper. It is workable that way. Yes.
24 MS. REIDY: I believe that's what -- okay. Then we'll proceed
25 along that manner and hope it works.
Page 7480
1 KEMAL MEHINOVIC [Resumed]
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 Examined by Ms. Reidy [Continued]
4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Mehinovic.
5 A. Good afternoon.
6 Q. At the end of yesterday's testimony, you were speaking about one
7 time when you were in Batkovici camp and Mr. Tadic had come to the camp
8 and had read a list of names out of people who were to be exchanged, and
9 your testimony was that your name was initially read out and then that you
10 saw Mr. Sabah Seric hand to Mr. Tadic, I believe, a hundred Deutschmarks
11 and promised him further money and that after this exchange that you
12 witnessed had happened, that your name was no longer on the exchange
13 list. Do you recall that testimony from yesterday?
14 A. I do.
15 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, I'd like to clarify is exactly what happened next,
16 because you then discussed about a meeting with the warden of the camp.
17 So could you please -- after you saw this money exchange hands, did you
18 personally have a meeting with the camp warden and with Mr. Tadic, or did
19 Mr. Tadic and the camp warden have meetings just among themselves?
20 A. No. They were together in their office because we went there for
21 further talks. That's where approval was decided for people to go --
22 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, just for a second. My earphones appear
23 not to be working, as I'm not receiving the English translation, although
24 my colleagues on the Bench [sic] are.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Usher.
Page 7481
1 MS. REIDY: Thank you very much for your assistance.
2 Q. So after the lists were read out, Mr. Tadic went off with the camp
3 warden to his office; is that correct?
4 A. No, that's not his office; that's the camp warden's office.
5 That's where meetings were held.
6 Q. So where did Mr. Tadic and the camp warden hold this meeting?
7 A. In the warden's office.
8 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I'm very sorry. I'm still getting no
9 English translation through my earphones.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Testing, testing. Can you hear English?
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have a test?
12 THE INTERPRETER: One, two, three. Can you hear English now?
13 MS. REIDY: Yes. Thank you very much. I can hear it now. I
14 apologise to the Bench. I didn't appreciate that until someone spoke.
15 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, I apologise for this. It's a technical problem
16 with my earphones.
17 So I understand from your last answer that this meeting took place
18 in the warden's office. Were you also in the warden's --
19 A. Yes. Yes.
20 Q. And you said yesterday as well that he said you didn't have enough
21 money. Who said that you had no money?
22 A. Both of them. Both he and the warden.
23 Q. And when you say "he," who exactly do you mean?
24 A. I mean Mr. Tadic.
25 Q. Mr. Tadic told you personally that you did not have enough money
Page 7482
1 to deserve to go on the exchange list; is that the essence of your
2 testimony?
3 A. Right. The warden had two letters of invitation sent by my family
4 from Italy and Turkey, certifying that I have family abroad, and that was
5 to confirm that they could expect some remuneration on my behalf.
6 Q. And when you protested -- or when you protested in that meeting,
7 how did -- well, did Mr. Tadic or the camp warden react?
8 A. Nothing. I said nothing. I was just returned to the hangar. I
9 think it was a policeman, a local policeman, who had a nickname of "little
10 dragon" who took me back to the hangar.
11 Q. Were you exchanged during this exchange following Mr. Tadic's
12 visit?
13 A. No. No.
14 Q. Was Sabah Seric indeed exchanged?
15 A. He had left, yes. He had gone.
16 Q. How much longer did you stay in -- sorry. Did you see -- did you
17 receive a visit from Mr. Tadic a second time or did you see Mr. Tadic in
18 the camp a second time after this episode?
19 A. Yes, I did. If I remember correctly, it was in July 1993, when an
20 exchange based on the all-for-all principle was to take place, on the
21 Satorovic separation line. Out of 400 or so prisoners in the camp, only
22 two of us from Samac remained. 180 had already been exchanged in previous
23 exchanges over the previous several months, so that only 20 of us
24 remained. Mr. Tadic was involved in this exchange, but he took us apart.
25 He singled us out and left us behind in the Batkovici camp.
Page 7483
1 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, this visit or this episode in July 1993, did
2 Mr. Tadic himself turn up at Batkovici camp? Is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Had you received information prior to Mr. Tadic's arrival that an
5 exchange would take place?
6 A. We were so advised by the warden and the police. They said that
7 the camp would be closed and that an all-for-all exchange would be carried
8 out. Unfortunately, that's not what happened.
9 Q. You then said that Mr. Tadic took you apart, singled you out and
10 left you behind. Can you describe exactly what happened on the day that
11 you were told the exchange would occur and what exactly Mr. Tadic's
12 actions were in singling you out and leaving you behind?
13 A. In the compound of the camp, within the parameter, an order was
14 given: Muslims go to the left and Croats to the right, and people from
15 Samac stand in the middle. I didn't know the reason, because we too were
16 Muslims, and I don't know why we were not allowed to join the group of
17 other Muslims, why we were singled out, but that's what happened. And
18 when this order was given, names were read out, the names of those other
19 people, and they boarded the buses, whereas we were left behind.
20 Q. When the order was given for Muslims to go to the left, Croats to
21 the right, and the people from Bosanski Samac to stand in the middle,
22 where was Mr. Tadic? Was he present?
23 A. Yes, he was there.
24 Q. Was he the one who gave the instructions that people from Bosanski
25 Samac should stand in the middle?
Page 7484
1 A. Well, he and the warden of the camp were standing at the gate, and
2 the orders were announced by that policeman nicknamed "little dragon."
3 His name was Dragan.
4 Q. Were you ever given any explanation as to why the people from
5 Bosanski Samac were not allowed to board the bus?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you see Mr. Tadic in Batkovici camp after this episode in July
8 1993?
9 A. No, never.
10 Q. How much longer did you stay in Batkovici camp, Mr. Mehinovic?
11 A. Again, I was sent out to work to Panafleks company. Then I would
12 be taken back to Batkovici. And immediately before my release, I was in
13 Janja, but I was returned to Batkovici the day before my release. There
14 were 12 of us people from Samac there. I don't know when the others had
15 been exchanged, but there were 12 of us remaining, and we were taken to
16 the Pale camp. It was only at 5.00 in the afternoon that we got to the
17 Pale camp. We were supposed to be exchanged then and there, but it was
18 late, and the ICRC took us in, talked to us and told us that we were going
19 to be exchanged. After a while, we were put on a bus and got seated, and
20 we were at a separation line, where Mr. Jakusi was. And during all that
21 time that we spent at the separation line, we stayed there until 5.00
22 a.m., and at 5.00 a.m. we started boarding transporters headed for the
23 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. That was on the 6th of October,
24 1994.
25 Q. So Mr. Mehinovic, is it correct that you were in detention by the
Page 7485
1 Serb authorities until the 6th of October, 1994?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And whilst you were mainly detained in Batkovici, I understand
4 from your testimony that you've just given, that you were also taken out
5 on forced labour duties to various other locations during the 18 months or
6 so you spent in Batkovici.
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. Yesterday you testified to a day when you were brought to what
9 appeared to be a courthouse in Bijeljina, and you were brought into a room
10 before people who you assumed to be judges. Apart from that incident in
11 the whole time you were detained, were you ever brought to any other
12 judicial proceedings?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, I'd like to ask you some questions on three
15 documents which relate to that episode in Bijeljina you told the Chamber
16 about yesterday.
17 MS. REIDY: And if I could ask for the usher's assistance.
18 Your Honour, the Defence counsel have these documents and I'll now
19 give to the usher copies to be distributed to the registry and the Bench.
20 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I believe we have some technical
21 difficulties, because we cannot see what is on the ELMO. Actually, it is
22 a black screen here. Now it's okay. Thank you.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
24 The Bench has a black screen. Yes, now we are okay. You can
25 proceed.
Page 7486
1 MS. REIDY: Your Honours, for the record, this is a document which
2 bears the date the 19th of January, 1993, and subject to corrections by
3 Defence counsel, it purports to be a record of a hearing before a panel of
4 judges by this witness that took place in Bijeljina.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: This document was given to you by the Defence or --
6 MS. REIDY: That's correct, Your Honour. It was disclosed to us
7 by --
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe we can have the confirmation from the Defence
9 what this document is. Maybe it will cut down time.
10 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, these documents and
12 several following documents that will be presented during the proceedings
13 are actually criminal records of the court in Bijeljina in the proceedings
14 that were conducted against this witness here. On the 26th of March I
15 made them available to the Prosecution, and as far as I know, the
16 Prosecution has interviewed the witness about these documents. And the
17 only thing that is pending are translations; I'm informed they will be
18 ready by Friday. Under the law on criminal proceedings of the SFRY, this
19 document is a record of the questioning of the accused before the
20 investigating judge. I believe that is written on the title -- on the
21 cover sheet. Perhaps the Prosecution intends to elaborate on this, so I
22 will not go into any further explanations.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
24 Yes, Ms. Reidy.
25 MS. REIDY: Can I just make one correction to the record.
Page 7487
1 Mr. Lukic is correct, he did disclose a number of documents to us on the
2 26th of March. At that time, I believe due to the clerical error, two
3 pages of what he disclosed to us were not received. One page which I
4 addressed the Bench on yesterday and I was allowed to approach the client,
5 the second page which didn't come through with the documents was in fact
6 the second page of this three-page document. And just this morning
7 Mr. Lukic brought it to my attention that we hadn't received it because it
8 was on the reverse side of the original documentation. So the witness
9 will in fact, according to his evidence, never have seen one of these
10 pages. But I'm happy to proceed just to ask him questions on it without
11 addressing it.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. You can go ahead.
13 MS. REIDY:
14 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, could I ask you to look at the document that is on
15 the ELMO beside you. It may be easier for you to look at the actual
16 document rather than the screen, just so you can see the whole document.
17 Highlighted at the bottom is a signature. Does that -- do you recognise
18 that signature?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is it your signature?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 MS. REIDY: Could I ask the usher to turn the page over.
23 Q. Could I just ask you to look at the signature at the bottom.
24 Again, that page, is that also your signature?
25 A. Yes, it is.
Page 7488
1 Q. And finally, the third page of that document. In the middle of
2 the page there's a third signature. Is that your signature?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. Mr. Mehinovic, you've heard the Defence counsel put on
5 the record that this purports to be a record of the hearing that took
6 place in Bijeljina. Did you give a statement to the judge whilst you
7 were -- when you were brought to this courthouse in Bijeljina?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did the judge -- whilst you were in front of who you believed to
10 be the judge, did the judge record anything and come down and make you
11 sign -- or request you to sign a statement?
12 A. He didn't make any notes. I don't remember signing this, but
13 maybe I was so afraid that I signed it without remembering.
14 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, could I ask you to look now at the second page of
15 the document, and there will be a portion at the bottom which is
16 highlighted. Could I ask you to read out very slowly on to the record, as
17 best as you can read the document, what it says in that highlighted
18 paragraph.
19 A. "The accused is informed that he has been assigned defence counsel
20 ex officio Ziko Krunic, attorney from Bijeljina. The request for the
21 conducting of an investigation by the military prosecutor's office of
22 Bijeljina."
23 THE INTERPRETER: The numbers are unclear.
24 A. "Number 22/52, dated 4th of January, 1993, is read out.
25 Q. Thank you. What you've just read out says that you have been
Page 7489
1 assigned an attorney from Bijeljina by the name of Ziko Krunic. Have you
2 ever heard the name Ziko Krunic before?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Have you ever met any person called Ziko Krunic?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Were you at any time told that you had a lawyer assigned to you by
7 the name of Ziko Krunic?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Before being in this courtroom today, have you ever read that
10 paragraph in this document which you just read out to the Chamber?
11 A. [No interpretation]
12 MS. REIDY:
13 Q. Could you please repeat your answer to that question? I didn't
14 hear it.
15 A. No, I haven't had it so far.
16 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, could I ask you now to look at the third page of
17 that document, and again at the bottom there is a paragraph which is
18 highlighted, and I'd be grateful if you could read out slowly, for the
19 benefit of the interpreters, so that the Chamber knows what it says.
20 A. "An investigation will be conducted against the accused Kemal
21 Mehinovic, son of Muradif, from Bosanski Samac, on well-grounded suspicion
22 that he has committed the crime, suspicion that he committed a crime from
23 Article 124, paragraph 1, and related to Article 139, paragraph 3, taken
24 over from the Penal Code of the SFRY in the manner indicated in the
25 request for investigation. The present decision has been notified to the
Page 7490
1 accused, who states that he waives his right to appeal. The decision is
2 notified to the accused, who states that he waives his right to appeal and
3 does not require the decision to be overturned."
4 I do not wish to read the minutes. My statement has been recorded
5 truthfully, or faithfully, which I confirm with my signature."
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. I might be -- Your Honours, I might be
8 wrong, but my English is not my native language. But I believe that the
9 last -- it's 13 -- page 13, row 3. "Require the decision to be
10 overturned." Actually, what it says is that the person does not wish that
11 the written copy is handed to him, so he waives the right -- because he's
12 waiving the right to appeal. He is also waiving the right to receive a
13 written copy to be handed over to him. I don't know whether the
14 "overturned" is exactly what it does say in the original. If the
15 translators can - I don't know.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters apologise. This word was really
17 unclear to us and the "overturning" was a guess.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: So what, according to the interpreters, what is the
19 correct version, then?
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters simply don't know. I'm sorry.
21 What counsel is saying may be completely right.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. We'll proceed, because we are going to
23 have the English translation anyway, so we'll deal with it that way.
24 MS. REIDY:
25 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, did you waive your right to appeal -- were you
Page 7491
1 advised of any decision that had been taken against you whilst you were in
2 any of the rooms in Bijeljina?
3 A. I personally am sure that I did not waive my right to appeal,
4 because based on all these things, from what I know, it is death penalty
5 that is the penalty for this, and I don't believe there is any such person
6 that would sign their own death penalty.
7 Q. Were you ever asked -- were you ever advised that you had a right
8 to appeal any decision taken by that panel you appeared in front of?
9 A. No.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, the first part of your question at line
11 25: "Were you advised of any decision that had been taken against you?"
12 hasn't been answered.
13 MS. REIDY: Absolutely, Your Honour.
14 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, could I ask you to address that same question
15 again? Did anyone ever advise you that a decision -- that there was a
16 well-grounded suspicion that you had committed a crime against Article 124
17 and related to Article 139 had been made?
18 A. No.
19 Q. And I understand from your last answer that you were never advised
20 that you had any right to appeal.
21 A. No.
22 Q. And did you at any stage, then, waive -- yourself decide that you
23 would waive a right to appeal?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Were you ever advised that you had a right to have a copy of any
Page 7492
1 decision that was reached against you, given a copy of that decision
2 handed over to you?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you ever indicate to anybody in the courtroom that you waived
5 any right to have any copies of decisions given to you?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you ever state to anyone in the room of which you were --
8 which you were called into that you had no desire or you did not wish to
9 read any minutes that were taken of the proceedings?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Were you ever asked by anyone in the room whether or not you
12 wanted to review minutes of proceedings?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Was your statement recorded whilst you were in that room?
15 A. Not while I was there. This name, first and last name of the
16 person who was taking the notes, I see for the first time, and on the
17 right-hand side, from the decision, there is no signature of the
18 investigative judge. Therefore, I do not consider this decision to be
19 legally binding.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mehinovic. If you can just answer my questions on
21 the document, and we'll leave the other conclusions to be drawn.
22 Did you ever state that your statement had been recorded
23 truthfully or faithfully or did you ever see -- were you ever presented
24 with a copy of your statement which you acknowledged to be a truthful and
25 faithful recording?
Page 7493
1 A. No. No.
2 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, when was the first time that you saw this document
3 which -- from which you've just read --
4 A. Here at The Hague.
5 Q. At no stage during your period of detention did you ever read any
6 part of this document?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you have any explanation as to how your signature came to be
9 upon it?
10 A. As I said before, when I was at the so-called court, there were
11 only two or three words that were exchanged, and I don't quite remember
12 whether it was that I signed this here or in the hall, when the police
13 officer was supposed to take me to the correctional centre.
14 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, is your testimony that you don't remember signing
15 anything at all or that you remember signing something but you're not sure
16 whether it was in the hall or where you might have signed something?
17 A. I don't know. I cannot remember.
18 Q. So you cannot recall whether or not you signed something at all;
19 is that it?
20 A. Yes.
21 MS. REIDY: I have a second document which I'd like to be shown --
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have it numbered first for identification
23 purposes only.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. It will be document P55 ter.
25 Thank you.
Page 7494
1 JUDGE MUMBA: For identification only, yes.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's right, Your Honours. It's P55 ID
3 ter. Thank you.
4 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, this is another document which we
5 received from Defence counsel for Mr. Tadic, and for the record, it
6 purports to be a receipt for the handover of certain documents to Mr. --
7 to a Mr. Kemal Mehinovic.
8 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, if you see that document on the ELMO, in the centre
9 of the page there is a word in Cyrillic highlighted. Could you just read
10 that out into the record.
11 A. "Receipt."
12 Q. On the right-hand corner of that document, there is a place for a
13 signature and there's a faint name. Can you read out, to the best of your
14 ability, what appears on the right-hand corner of that document.
15 A. In the first line, I can read a signature, Mehinovic, and the
16 second part, however, is very blurry. I don't think this is the original
17 of the signature. I didn't -- I mean, I disagree with the signature.
18 Q. Mr. Mehinovic --
19 A. Whether it's my signature or not, I don't know.
20 Q. You're saying -- so the name on the right-hand corner, you do not
21 positively recognise as your signature; is that your testimony?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, up in the left-hand corner there's also a
24 highlighted line. Could you read out what is highlighted there on the top
25 left-hand corner.
Page 7495
1 A. In my opinion, it says "March 27th."
2 Q. Can you recall whether sometime in March you were ever handed any
3 sort of documents relating to trial proceedings in Bijeljina?
4 A. I cannot recall.
5 Q. Did anyone ever give you any documents relating to decisions taken
6 against you in Bijeljina or to the assignment of counsel to you?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you ever remember signing any receipt acknowledging acceptance
9 of delivery of documents?
10 A. I don't remember.
11 Q. At any time on the 27th of March 1993, or at any time in 1993 and
12 1994, did someone come to you in Batkovici and give you documents?
13 A. I did not receive any. It might the case that I was working at
14 the time, but I didn't receive any documents, nor do I know that anybody
15 came to give me documents.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MS. REIDY: Your Honours, again could I ask that this be given an
18 identification number.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Could we have a number for identification
20 only, please.
21 THE REGISTRAR: It is P56 ter ID, Your Honours.
22 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, this is the third and final document of
23 this nature I'd like to put to the witness. I'm afraid the copy itself is
24 quite faint, and I'm hoping that we will be able to read out just the
25 important parts to advise the Chamber what this document is about.
Page 7496
1 JUDGE MUMBA: The copy which is given to the witness is as bad as
2 these copies?
3 MS. REIDY: If Your Honours are able to see the ELMO, you will see
4 that when portions which I'd ask the witness to read out are highlighted,
5 it does make the writing that little bit more visible.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. You can proceed. Yes, you can proceed,
7 if the witness will be able to read. That's fine.
8 MS. REIDY:
9 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, again you'll see a document on the ELMO, and there
10 will be a portion in it which is highlighted. Could I ask you again to
11 read out, as best as you're able to - and please read it slowly so that
12 the interpreters can catch the interpretation - what that highlighted
13 portion of this document says.
14 A. "Decision terminating the criminal proceedings against the accused
15 Mehinovic Kemal, son of Muradif, born on the 6th of May, 1956, in
16 Bosanski Samac, residing in Vuk Karadzic Street number 64. For the crime
17 of armed insurgency based on Article 124, paragraph 1 relating to the
18 Article 135, act 3..."
19 These two things I cannot discern.
20 "Because the law amending the law on amnesty, public gazette of
21 Republika Srpska number 17 through 39 -- through 99 was relieved of
22 prosecution."
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can confirm that the
25 witness read the text; however, the first two words that the witness read,
Page 7497
1 therefore -- I have a much better copy. Therefore, I would like to read
2 the first two words again. I would like to suggest that the witness do it
3 again.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can go ahead.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The criminal proceedings against
6 the accused Kemal Mehinovic is being terminated. He's the son of Muradif,
7 born on May 6th, 1956 in Bosanski Samac and resides in Vuk Karadzic Street
8 number 64. For the crime of armed insurgence see based on Article
9 124, paragraph 1, relating to the Article 135, Act 3, KZRS because the law
10 amending the law on amnesty S1 gazette of RS number 17 through 99 of July
11 15th, 1999 was relieve of prosecution."
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, just for the purposes of accuracy,
14 it's the Article 139 and not 135. It says armed insurgency according to
15 Article 134 paragraph 1 in connection to Article 139, paragraph 2 or 3. I
16 don't know. I don't see it. And the transcript it's 135. So if the
17 witness can read again, because he has a much better copy than I have on
18 the ELMO. But I know it's 139.
19 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, just to save the witness reading it,
20 we're willing to concede it's 139.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you. Then it's no problem.
23 MS. REIDY:
24 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, could I ask you to turn again to the document on
25 the ELMO that you've just been reading from, or maybe indeed you could
Page 7498
1 keep your eye on the better copy that the Defence provided you with. Can
2 you see a date on this document in the top left-hand corner?
3 A. The date is March 22nd, 2000.
4 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, were you advised that criminal proceedings had been
5 terminated against you?
6 A. No.
7 Q. When was the first time that you learnt of this decision?
8 A. Here in The Hague.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MS. REIDY: And again, I'd just ask that that be given a number
11 for identification purposes.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have a number for identification
13 purposes only.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. I apologise, Your Honours. It
15 seems that we've been having a problem with the electric microphone. We
16 have the technicians on it right now.
17 It will be document P57 ter ID.
18 MS. REIDY:
19 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, you have told the Chamber that you were finally
20 released in October 1994. In which place in Bosnia were you actually
21 released?
22 A. In Sarajevo. I had an exchange in Sarajevo.
23 Q. And ultimately, Mr. Mehinovic, where did you end up living, or
24 where do you live now?
25 A. I live in the United States now, in Salt Lake City, in Utah.
Page 7499
1 Q. After you were detained in Bosanski Samac, what happened to your
2 wife and your son and your daughter? Did they remain in Bosanski Samac?
3 A. No. They were exchanged, I think in July of 1993. The location
4 of the exchange was Dragalicevo, on the Croatian side. Orasje, that
5 belonged to Croatia, to the HVO. They took in my family until I arrived
6 from the exchange in 1994. Towards the end of 1994/early 1995, I asked
7 for help in Osijek from UNHCR. There I was informed that I can leave
8 Croatia and ask to be resettled into another country. From them I
9 received all the possible documentation, also paid transportation to the
10 United States.
11 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, did you ever discuss with your wife her exchange?
12 A. No. I wasn't able to, nor did I have the opportunity. When I met
13 up with my wife, she told me that she had not wanted to be exchanged
14 because I was still in a camp at the time, and she thought it would have
15 been better for her to stay in Samac in expectation of my release.
16 Q. Thank you. So can I just clarify something, Mr. Mehinovic. At
17 the time I understand you did not have the opportunity to discuss your
18 wife's exchange, but after she was exchanged and after you were reunited
19 with your family, did you have an opportunity to discuss with her her
20 exchange and what had happened to her after you had been arrested?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And if she told you that she didn't want to be exchanged because
23 she didn't know what your fate was, why was it that she was exchanged in
24 Dragalic in 1993. Did she explain to you how that came about?
25 A. The explanation is simple: They were not able to stay there
Page 7500
1 because a large group of people from Bosanski Samac was taken for an
2 exchange.
3 MS. REIDY: Could I ask that the witness be shown a document?
4 This is a list of persons to be exchanged in Dragalic. I believe it
5 contains the name of this witness's wife and his children and other
6 persons, and we have an English translation of it. So perhaps the B/C/S
7 could be put on the ELMO beside the witness and the English translations
8 distributed to the Bench --
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
10 MS. REIDY: -- and the legal officer.
11 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, can you see to your right there a document which
12 purports to be a list of persons to cross into Croatia for an exchange
13 planned on the 15th of June, 1993, in Dragalic? Do you see that document
14 beside you?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Could I ask you to turn to the second page of that document,
17 second page in the B/C/S version, and to look down the left-hand column,
18 and you'll see names beside the number 46, a name Fazila Mehinovic. Do
19 you know Fazila Mehinovic?
20 A. That's my wife.
21 Q. Could you advise the Chamber who the next five persons under the
22 name of your wife are, the next five persons, down to the number 52?
23 A. That is my wife's sister and her children. My children are under
24 numbers 51 and 52. Damir and Elvira Mehinovic.
25 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us how old your children were at the
Page 7501
1 time of this exchange?
2 A. My son was about 15 and my daughter 9.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MS. REIDY: I think those were the only questions I have to ask
5 the witness. He won't be familiar with the list otherwise. Could I ask
6 that it be entered into evidence and be given an exhibit number.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think there's no objection from the
8 Defence. Can we have the document as an exhibit.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. It will be P58 for the English
10 translation and P58 ter for the B/C/S version. Thank you.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
12 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I have one final document to show the
13 witness. It's a document that we have an English translation of, but I
14 think it would serve the Bench better when they have the document in front
15 of them that I explain what it is.
16 Your Honours, this is a list of persons of Muslim and Croat
17 nationality left in Bosanski Samac. As you see, we've provided a
18 translation of it, and because the document, which is four pages, is in
19 essence a list of names, going from numbers 1 through to 277, what the
20 Translation Unit have done is just to pick out those names on the list
21 where there appear something more than just the name of the person. So,
22 for example, at number 22, the name Sehapovic Ahmet, it says "and child."
23 So is the Bench clear on how the Translation Unit have approached this
24 translation?
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, except -- yes. These names on the -- what are
Page 7502
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 7503
1 called the English list is an extract from the Serbo-Croat list, and it
2 just shows some extra information about certain names. What I want to
3 know is: The list says of Muslims and Croats in Bosanski Samac. Is it --
4 at what stage?
5 MS. REIDY: Your Honours, this is indeed a problem. The document
6 was given to us by both sources, people who had worked from the Serbian
7 commission of exchanges and also those on the Croatian side who had
8 received persons who formerly lived in Bosanski Samac. The document came
9 to us in this format, and unfortunately it doesn't have a date on it,
10 which does mean that it's not clear when this was. Now, this witness's
11 name appears on this list, the wife -- the names of his wife and children
12 and that don't. So I'm afraid that the Prosecution had simply stated
13 that -- this was at some stage after July 1993, and we're in a position we
14 can say -- we don't know exactly when -- what date this list was drawn up
15 and except that it was -- it appears to be after July -- after June 1993,
16 and certainly prior to this witness being released from custody or being
17 transferred to Batkovici. But I'm afraid both copies were given to the
18 Prosecution without a date indicated, and we realise that that has an
19 impact on the weight which the Bench can attach to it, but we would like
20 to have it in evidence nonetheless.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: What's the purpose of having it in evidence? What
22 is it supposed to show?
23 MS. REIDY: Well, Your Honour, you'll know that the Prosecution
24 case is that from 17.000 or more Bosnians and Muslims who used to live in
25 Bosanski Samac, that by this process of what we've termed so-called
Page 7504
1 exchanges and other means, that the Bosnian and -- that the Muslim and
2 Croat population in Bosanski Samac, at the end of this process, had
3 dwindled to just under 300, and that is a figure that we came up with from
4 the evidence available to the Prosecution. This is one of those pieces --
5 this was a document where it is purported they have listed the remaining
6 Bosnian -- and the commissions drew up a list of the remaining persons
7 [Realtime transcript read in error "Americans"] in Bosanski Samac who had
8 Muslim or Croat ethnicity. As I said, I know that as a document it has
9 its flaws, and therefore the weight to be given to it must be carefully
10 considered by the Bench, but we would like to have it in evidence for what
11 it's worth as it is part of the Prosecution case.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, the problem is it has no date, and from
13 your explanation, why don't you call the sources of the document to give
14 evidence on it? Because this witness can't explain anything about this
15 document.
16 MS. REIDY: No, Your Honour, but the witness can identify that his
17 name appears on the list. He does also have information as to other
18 persons from this list who are of -- supposedly of Croat and Muslim origin
19 and who this list purports -- are still remaining in Bosanski Samac. This
20 list has been disclosed to all Defence counsel for a couple of years now,
21 and we've never had any challenge to it as it being in any way less than
22 authentic. And I said the sources were both -- we got this document from
23 both a Serb source and a Croat source. These were exchanges going on
24 about persons living in the area and presumably involved in the whole
25 process of swapping population figures and names in exchanges. So as I
Page 7505
1 said, Your Honour, we know it is a flawed document, but we do consider
2 that we would like to see it in evidence and the appropriate weight to be
3 attributed to it in the final overall evaluation when the Prosecution case
4 rests.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic.
6 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. First of all, -- sorry. Yes.
7 Thank you. Your Honours, in fact, I would like to intervene. It's page
8 26, line 5. It's something a little bit unlogic, unclear. "A list of
9 remaining Americans in Bosanski Samac who had Muslim or Croat ethnicity."
10 Maybe it's not the case. So it's just intervention in order to clear up
11 the transcript.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: To correct.
13 MR. PANTELIC: But about the submission of our learned friends
14 from the Prosecution, maybe we could add something later. Thank you.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, what's the correct -- what is it supposed
16 to be? How should it read correctly?
17 MS. REIDY: Well, it certainly shouldn't read "Americans," so I'm
18 happy to go with persons of -- I think persons of Muslim and Croat
19 ethnicity is probably the appropriate term.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought I saw some other counsel. Mr. Lukic.
21 THE INTERPRETER: No microphone.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I suggest that for now
23 we give this document only a number for identification. First of all, I
24 believe that this document was only partially delivered to the
25 Prosecution -- in fact, sorry, it was made available to the Prosecution by
Page 7506
1 only one side, the Serbian side, not the Croatian side, and that also
2 bears on the weight to be attached to this evidence. And some of the
3 facts stated by my colleague from the Prosecution, such as that there were
4 only 17.000 Croats and Muslims in Samac are not quite true. There were in
5 total 5.000 citizens of all nationalities in Samac. This list purports to
6 be a list of people located in Bosanski Samac. That's why I believe that
7 it would be worthwhile to call the person who made this list available to
8 the Prosecution, and I believe it was only one side, not both sides, that
9 presented the list. But that is something that I can confirm only after
10 the break.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.
12 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I'm happy to have it marked for
13 identification purposes now -- I'm sorry. Your Honour, I'm happy to have
14 it marked for identification purposes now, and --
15 JUDGE MUMBA: You'll deal with matters that have been raised
16 later.
17 MS. REIDY: Exactly. And further witnesses may be able to comment
18 and throw light on this document.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Essentially -- okay. I think we'll have the one in
20 Serbo-Croat marked as usual and the one in English will have its own
21 number, for both identification purposes only.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the B/C/S version will be P59 ter ID
23 and the English version P59 ID. Thank you.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
25 Yes, Ms. Reidy. You can proceed.
Page 7507
1 MS. REIDY:
2 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, can I ask you to look at the document on the ELMO,
3 and perhaps you could turn to the third page of the document.
4 Mr. Mehinovic, at number 171, does your name appear?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was there any other Kemal Mehinovic living in Bosanski Samac at
7 the time, that you were aware of?
8 A. No. No. I'm the only Kemal Mehinovic in Bosanski Samac. Apart
9 from my family, that is, the family of my father, there is -- there are no
10 other Mehinovics in Bosanski Samac.
11 Q. Do you know anyone by the name of Hasan Mehinovic, the name that
12 appears below yours?
13 A. There is no such name in Bosanski Samac.
14 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, did I ask you to have a look through this list at
15 the weekend when you arrived in The Hague?
16 A. You did.
17 Q. Did you recognise a lot of the names that appear on this list?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. And of those you were able to recognise, did most of them come
20 from Bosanski Samac, or did all of them come from Bosanski Samac?
21 A. Most of them -- all of these people are from Bosanski Samac.
22 Q. Out of the names listed, did you recognise a lot of those names as
23 persons that you knew to be members of the 4th Detachment?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. On the page on which your name appears, could you perhaps just
Page 7508
1 indicate by reference to the numbers any of those people who you said were
2 with the 4th Detachment.
3 A. Number 158, number 169, 170, 173, 177, 183, and 184, 186, 188, 196
4 and 197.
5 Q. Okay. Mr. Mehinovic, I'll ask you to stop there. I think you've
6 given us some indication of the number. Before you came to The Hague, had
7 you ever been shown this list before?
8 A. No, I haven't.
9 MS. REIDY: That's all I wanted to ascertain from the witness from
10 that list for the moment. Thank you.
11 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, so that you were finally able to move to the United
12 States, is it the case that since you've been in the United States, that
13 you initiated a lawsuit based on some of the things that happened to you
14 in Bosanski Samac?
15 A. I did.
16 Q. Was that a criminal case or a civil case?
17 A. A civil case.
18 Q. And who was the civil case against?
19 A. Against Nikola Vukovic, also known as Batan.
20 Q. Was Nikola Vukovic also in America at the time that you instigated
21 this case?
22 A. Yes, he was.
23 Q. How did you know that he was in America at the time?
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in keeping with the
Page 7509
1 ruling of the Trial Chamber made last week, we are talking here about the
2 period of time which goes far beyond the indictment. I mean, the
3 questions that are being asked by the Prosecution now, and I believe also
4 the questions are being asked about persons who are irrelevant for our
5 case.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, yes.
7 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, the only reason I go down this route is
8 because this is a case which Defence counsel have frequently brought into
9 issue here. They have -- particularly Defence counsel for Mr. Milan Simic
10 raised it and in fact asked this Bench to take judicial notice of the
11 initial filing by lawyers of this civil case. We now have before us the
12 primary witness who initiated that suit. I only intend to ask a few
13 questions. I don't need to, if the Chamber considers this wholly
14 irrelevant, I'm happy to stop. That is the only reason I led evidence on
15 this at all, because of what has already arisen in this case, initiated by
16 Defence counsel. So if they're not going to raise the case with this or
17 any other witness, then of course I will not lead on it.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: You can go ahead, for whatever it's worth.
19 MS. REIDY:
20 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, the question I asked you was just: How did you
21 know that Mr. Vukovic was in America at the time?
22 A. Through a friend who lives in the same city and works for the same
23 company. He called me and said, "Your friend Batan is in Atlanta."
24 Q. During those proceedings that you started, how many times did you
25 ever make a statement to the court about your -- what happened to you in
Page 7510
1 Bosanski Samac?
2 A. One day when both of us -- both he and I were summoned, together
3 with many witnesses, we appeared before the court, and that's when our
4 case was discussed. But there was a period before that during which my
5 lawyers were engaged on it.
6 Q. This one day, when was it?
7 A. As far as I remember, it was in the year 2001, towards the end of
8 the year. I'm not sure.
9 Q. Was Mr. Vukovic actually in the courtroom --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
11 MS. REIDY:
12 Q. Was Mr. Vukovic actually in the courtroom when your case was
13 discussed?
14 A. No. He didn't show up, nor were his counsel there.
15 Q. Were you successful in the case against Mr. Vukovic?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was Mr. Vukovic the only defendant in the case in the United
18 States?
19 A. Yes, he was.
20 Q. Thank you. Mr. Mehinovic, just to finish your examination, I'd
21 like to ask you some questions pertaining to any long-term injuries or
22 medical complications you may have sustained as a result of what you
23 experienced during detention in Bosanski Samac. Could you advise the
24 Chamber whether or not you -- or after you had been released, whether you
25 required any form of medical intervention or medical treatment as a result
Page 7511
1 of injuries or complications you sustained following from your detention
2 in Bosanski Samac.
3 A. After I was exchanged in Bosnia and Herzegovina, I had no occasion
4 to see a doctor. There were not enough doctors. And moreover, I didn't
5 have enough money. However, when I arrived in the States, via Croatia, I
6 was entitled to medical assistance and I went through first check-ups, and
7 they confirmed my original suspicions about some dark areas in my abdomen
8 and elsewhere in my body. Until 1999, I continued working; however, one
9 morning I was unable to get up, and paramedics arrived, together with my
10 doctor, who said, "You'll have to see me one of these days and we'll have
11 to do something urgently." On the 11th of January 2000, I underwent four
12 surgeries in six days. Half of my stomach was extracted, and eight
13 centimetres in one section of my intestines and eight centimetres of
14 another intestine and half of a kidney. I have proof, and my doctors can
15 confirm, that these injuries were due to blows and that I had in those
16 areas dark stains which could be seen on x-rays and scans. These parts of
17 organs had to be taken out. I have to this day problems with my ribs and
18 my head. On the back of my head, there is a fissure, five centimetres
19 long and two centimetres deep. To this day I have frequent pains, for
20 which I take painkillers.
21 Thank you very much. That's it.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have a break?
23 MS. REIDY: Certainly, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll have a break and continue our proceedings at
25 1615 hours.
Page 7512
1 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
4 MS. REIDY: Thank you. I'll just be a few minutes more, Your
5 Honours, and then I intend to close the examination-in-chief.
6 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, before the break you told the Chamber of various
7 medical treatments you've undergone. Are you required now to constantly
8 take medication for your ailments?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Have your doctors indicated to you that that medication -- you'll
11 have to take that medication for the foreseeable future?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, I now want to finally ask you about what happened
14 to the flats and the two restaurants that you and your brother owned,
15 which we saw in the photograph entered into evidence as Prosecution
16 Exhibit P53. When your wife and your children were forced to partake in
17 the exchange in June 1993, were they told what was going to happen -- or
18 were they allowed to take with them all the possessions that were in your
19 flat in Bosanski Samac?
20 A. No, they were not allowed to take anything. There was a military
21 policeman called Naser Sejdic, and there was another colleague of his who
22 made a record and a list of the property, of my entire property. They
23 were only allowed to take one bag. My wife was allowed to take this one
24 bag to have a change of clothes.
25 Q. Was your wife given a copy of this record or list of property
Page 7513
1 which was made?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Was your wife told what would happen to the property which was
4 recorded on this list?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Have you ever since then received back or received any information
7 about what happened to the property that was put onto that list?
8 A. I found out that the majority of my property was thrown out or
9 dispersed, and later, first there was a police command in my apartment,
10 and also -- on my side and on my brother's side, and after that they moved
11 out, and then they allowed other persons to move in who were families of
12 Serb ethnicity.
13 Q. From whom did you find out that your property had been thrown out
14 or dispersed?
15 A. From my friends who came to the States and who were longer in
16 Bosanski Samac than I was.
17 Q. Have you made any attempt to reclaim or get compensation for your
18 property or your businesses and flats which you had to give up in Bosanski
19 Samac?
20 A. Last year my brother went to Bosanski Samac. I gave him a power
21 of attorney for my property, so that he could start proceedings to have my
22 property returned. In the meantime, he got his part of the house, but he
23 did not get my part of the house because he said that the power of
24 attorney was no longer valid and that I had to go there by myself.
25 Q. Did your brother get any of his possessions back?
Page 7514
1 A. Yes. My brother got his part of the house back and also his
2 establishment. In the part where my establishment used to be, my friend,
3 Uros Cane was located. In the meantime, he closed the establishment. He
4 won't give the key to anyone. The establishment no longer operates. And a
5 woman with her child is living in my apartment currently.
6 Q. Did your brother get any of his movable possessions back in
7 addition to the physical house and the establishment?
8 A. No. There was none left.
9 Q. And did your brother ever receive any compensation for any things
10 that he had lost or that had been destroyed or that had been taken away
11 from his properties in Bosanski Samac?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, would you yourself ultimately like to go back to
14 Bosanski Samac?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you say that you exercised your free choice to leave Bosanski
17 Samac?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you want to leave Bosanski Samac in April 1992?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did your wife or your children want to leave Bosanski Samac in
22 April 1992?
23 A. No.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, calls for speculation. How can he
Page 7515
1 know when he was in prison what was the idea of his wife and his children?
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Perhaps wife and husband are one.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry?
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Perhaps wife and husband are one.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: You don't understand what I'm saying. Perhaps
7 husband and wife are one so he --
8 MR. ZECEVIC: Probably, but she should somehow rephrase the
9 question whether he was told by his wife.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: By his wife, yes.
11 Ms. Reidy.
12 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I've already covered this in my
13 examination. I've asked the witness whether or not since he was reunited
14 with his family did he discuss her exchange and that, and I didn't ask, I
15 think, you know specifically this, but I think the fact that they talked
16 about it and some of the circumstances are already on the record. So I
17 think the ground is already laid as to --
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
19 MS. REIDY: -- context or how he could answer that question.
20 Indeed, Your Honour, that is my final question in examination-in-chief.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
22 Cross-examination. Who is going to start. Mr. Lukic.
23 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Mehinovic. I am going to ask
25 you a number of questions in the cross-examination section. Before I
Page 7516
1 begin this cross-examination, I would like to ask you, and I'm also going
2 to make sure that my questions are formulated in such a way, I would like
3 you to answer me as short as possible so that we can finish this section
4 as soon as we can. I would like your answers to be "yes," "no," or "I
5 don't know" if you do not know anything about the circumstances in
6 question.
7 I would also like to remind you, and I'd also like to remind
8 myself, that the two of us here are speaking and understanding the same
9 language, but it is necessary for the interpreters to interpret both my
10 questions and your answers to other participants, and therefore I would
11 like to ask you to make a short pause before you start responding so that
12 the interpreters can catch up; otherwise there will be an overlap.
13 I would like to ask you a number of questions about the conditions
14 in Bosanski Samac before you were confined, while you were still under the
15 labour obligation and you were moving around the town. You answered the
16 Prosecution's questions once by saying that the water supply system was
17 broken. Could you please tell me when that water supply system was broken
18 and how long there was no water.
19 A. I don't know the exact date when the water supply system was
20 broken, and I also don't know when it was restarted, because I was taken
21 to Batkovici. While I was there, there was no water.
22 Q. So the entire -- your stay until you were taken to Batkovici,
23 there was no water?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Could you please tell me the situation regarding water --
Page 7517
1 electricity?
2 A. Same. There was no electricity.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.
4 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, could I ask counsel to be more clear, to
5 ascertain more clarity as to this water supply system. Because the
6 witness testified to the fact that there was no water whilst he was
7 already in detention, while he was in the SUP building and that building
8 had no water in the toilet. And if Mr. Novak is talking about general
9 conditions, then I think it's important to clarify that this information
10 about the water was -- the witness has testified only about when he was in
11 detention, and I think what's on the record now is not clear that it
12 relates to that period.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, yes. Mr. Lukic can do that.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I understand the remark of the
15 Prosecutor. My first question was: Before he was incarcerated, in the
16 period before he was incarcerated in Bosanski Samac, while he was still
17 under the work obligation, was there no water then?
18 A. Yes, there was no water. We were bringing water from the artesian
19 well.
20 Q. Did any citizens of Samac have water?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you remember what the situation was with electricity? Were
23 there any cuts of electricity?
24 A. In the first day, there was electricity. I don't remember the
25 time or the date, but later there was no electricity.
Page 7518
1 Q. Can you tell us approximately whether this was after a month that
2 there was no more electricity, ten days, fifteen days?
3 A. No. I think it was maybe three to four days.
4 Q. So if I understand you correctly, several days after April 17th,
5 there was no more electricity in Samac.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I assume that there was also no electricity for all the citizens
8 of Samac equally.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was there any shelling of Samac?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were those shellings frequent?
13 A. In the first days, yes, they were. That also happened maybe four
14 or five days, there was shellings then.
15 Q. I assume there was a lot of damaged buildings.
16 A. In the area of the embankment, Vjenac JNA, from what I know, yes.
17 I could only see that because that's where I was working. I don't know
18 anything about the rest.
19 Q. Could you tell us more about this area of embankment? From what
20 area were these shellings coming from? Could you answer?
21 A. I don't know. I'm not an expert.
22 Q. But opposite from this embankment there was this territory was
23 under the situation -- under the rule of the HVO; is that correct?
24 A. I think so.
25 Q. I'm going to use the numbers from the unofficial transcript,
Page 7519
1 because we haven't received the official transcript yet. On page 12,
2 during your statements yesterday, while you were describing your movements
3 in the morning of April 17th of 1992, you said that you saw your fellow
4 citizens, Ibela Bicic and some other civilians, and you went into the
5 streets with them, went towards the department store, and then joined them
6 in their movement towards the school.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. These people that you saw, how many were there, approximately?
9 Can you make an assumption?
10 A. I think I already said this once. I think there were about 20
11 people. I don't know the exact number.
12 Q. Were they armed?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did they have automatic rifles? Or let me ask you in a more
15 simple way. Did they have both rifles and automatic rifles? Did you see
16 that somebody had that type of weapon?
17 A. I saw rifles, the so-called PAPs.
18 Q. You already stated several times yesterday that at that moment you
19 did not have any weapons with you.
20 A. No, I did not.
21 Q. Before you went into the streets, you described that your brother
22 warned you not to leave the house; is that correct?
23 A. I said that he came to my establishment, to my bakery, and told
24 me, "What? Are you crazy? Where are you going? Can't you see it's
25 war?" And then I returned home.
Page 7520
1 Q. Did you feel any fear when your brother told you this?
2 A. No.
3 Q. But you still did not stay in the bakery?
4 A. No, of course not. I went home.
5 Q. You also stated that you heard Mr. Ibela Salkic saying that there
6 was a massacre of citizens in Donja Mahala and that they were going there
7 to defend them, and that's why you went with them.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. After April 17th, did you hear anything about that massacre, what
10 kind of a massacre it was?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you hear that that day or on a later day there was any
13 massacre at all in Bosanski Samac?
14 A. On that day, I didn't hear.
15 Q. Did you hear that somebody was murdered on April 17th of 1992?
16 A. On the 17th of April, I didn't hear anything, but I did hear
17 something about that on the 18th.
18 Q. How many people were killed on the 18th?
19 A. As far as I know, in Donja Mahala, one person was killed. This
20 was a person of Croatian ethnicity. He was called Ropo Dzebic.
21 Q. This was the only death, forced death, so to speak, in the period
22 of 17th, 18th, in Samac?
23 A. Yes, as far as I'm aware.
24 Q. In responding to the Prosecutor, you didn't say this, but I'm
25 asking you now: Why did you go with these people?
Page 7521
1 A. Because I was curious, and also because of my security, because I
2 wanted to know where to go.
3 Q. When you were told to go back home, you weren't curious any more
4 to continue?
5 A. No.
6 Q. This whole event and your movements on April 17th was described in
7 the same way to Milos Savic and here in front of the Chamber?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I compared it, and these are really identical facts, except that
10 you are claiming --
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
12 MS. REIDY: Can I have the statement directly from the record?
13 This is the counsel now putting his comments on the record. I've compared
14 these are identical. He's making assertions. If he wants to ask the
15 witness some question, he can, but that phrase is inappropriate.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
17 Yes, Mr. Lukic. The objection is sustained.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. You have read the statement in front of the Chamber before you
20 testified that was also found at -- by -- with Milos Savic. Are there any
21 differences in what you said there and what you said here, except for the
22 part where you claim that you weren't carrying arms?
23 A. No, there is no difference except that I was not carrying any
24 arms.
25 Q. That's how I understood you.
Page 7522
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Also when you were describing the work obligation, you said that
3 you were digging trenches, as far as I understand, in Pisari. Were you
4 digging trenches anywhere else?
5 A. At the embankment in Bosanski Samac. I showed you on the map.
6 That was digging trenches and also building bunkers.
7 Q. And you were also digging trenches in Pisari. That you said at
8 the very beginning.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. That was the separation line with the opposite side?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did this separation line also reach the village of Zaselica?
13 A. I don't know, because I didn't go there.
14 Q. You said that you gave the statement to inspector Savic in July of
15 1992.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. On page 67 of yesterday's transcript, you also said that you saw
18 Tadic at one occasion while you were incarcerated at the TO.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When there was an exchange planned, and the Prosecutor asked you
21 what the people that were detained there looked like, and then you
22 described two people that you know were injured while you were there.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. But you also said you are not personally familiar with the issue
25 whether prisoners were exchanging clothes or not.
Page 7523
1 A. No, I wasn't.
2 Q. But then on page 62, you said that, when the Prosecutor asked you
3 whether the family could through guards --
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
5 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, this may be a problem with the
6 transcript, but the question of counsel that "you are not personally
7 familiar with the issue whether prisoners were exchanging clothes or not"
8 appears to my reading that could be the prisoners were exchanging clothes
9 amongst themselves or something. I think what the witness testified to
10 was that he did not know after prisoners were taken away whether or not
11 they were given some sort of clean clothes. They just left in the same
12 clothes they came in with. After that, during the exchange he couldn't
13 know whether they were given clean clothes. I would just like it to be
14 clarified, because for me that question whether the prisoners were
15 exchanging clothes or not could refer to a completely different action.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's a bit misleading, Mr. Lukic. Can you
17 rephrase your question.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. I'm going to read to the witness what he said on the page 69,
20 because the translation is also unclear to me, and through that, through
21 his statement, we could clear this up what he said.
22 When asked, on page 69, line 8, when asked by the Prosecutor
23 whether Mr. Tadic could see whether the prisoners had clean clothes, he
24 said, and I will read this in English.
25 [In English] "I personally don't know if they received or changed
Page 7524
1 clothes, but from the TO, they left. They went out wearing the same
2 clothes that they had when they first arrived."
3 [Interpretation] That's what the transcript says, and therefore I
4 would like to ask you to clarify. Relevant to the prisoners that were
5 imprisoned at the TO building, did they go through the exchange dressed
6 the same way as you saw them when you were there?
7 A. Yes. They were taken from my room wearing the same clothes that
8 they had on. They were taken to the buses. The bus was in front of the
9 doors of the TO building. And what happened later, I have no idea.
10 Whether they were changing clothes later or not, I do not know.
11 Q. The Prosecutor asked you, on page 62, whether the families could
12 bring food and clothes through the guards. You said yes.
13 A. Yes. After June or July, that was being allowed a little bit,
14 because we all said to our guards that we had lice and that we had yellow
15 jaundice. It is well known to everybody that those days we were -- our
16 heads were shaven and we were allowed to change clothes, those people that
17 had clothes to change, who received them from their families.
18 Q. Were you -- was your head shaved before or after you came to talk
19 to Milos Savic?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You didn't say this to the Prosecutor yesterday. So before July
22 of 1992 --
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
24 MS. REIDY: Again, it maybe just a transcript problem but at the
25 moment the record states that the question was: "Was your head shaved
Page 7525
1 before or after you came to talk to Milos Savic?" And the answer is
2 "Yes." So the record doesn't reflect whether it's before or after, so
3 perhaps counsel could clarify that.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. I thought I just asked whether he had his head shaved before, not
7 after, but in the transcript it says both.
8 So did you have your head shaved before you went to see Milos
9 Savic?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Also on page 73 of yesterday's transcript, describing your
12 appearance when meeting Milos Savic, you said that it took place in July
13 and you said that prisoners had the opportunity to change into the clothes
14 brought to them by their families.
15 A. Yes. That was in July.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
17 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, what the witness actually said was -- he
18 was asked: "Were you in the same clothes you were arrested in on the 27th
19 of May?" He said "Yes. Only after the interrogation did we begin to get
20 a change of clothes and other things that our families..." Now the
21 question again, as I read it on the transcript, is saying, is being put to
22 the witness that he said he had the opportunity to change his clothes
23 before the interrogation, and that's not what the witness put on the
24 record yesterday. So I think it's mis -- it's misleading the witness as
25 to what he had said yesterday.
Page 7526
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, you can clarify that with the witness or
2 rephrase your question.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I didn't want to mislead the witness.
4 I just wanted to have these facts clarified. But I'll ask just one more
5 question.
6 Q. When did you see Tadic?
7 A. I think it could have been February or March. I'm not sure. No,
8 not February. No, no, not February or March. It was in May when the
9 exchange of Croats took place, because among that number of 180, there
10 were about 70 Croats.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: What year was this?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992. I can't pin down the month
13 exactly, but it was after we were transferred from SUP to the TO an
14 exchange took place, before we were allowed and before we got lice.
15 That's when this exchange took place. I'm not sure about the time.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. But it was Croats who were exchanged, in your words?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Just one more thing. My question was not recorded in the
20 transcript. This refers to your sighting of Tadic in the TO yard; is that
21 correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You described, Mr. Mehinovic, your trip to the court in
24 Bijeljina. Was that the first time that you were going to a court?
25 A. It was the first time that I went to a military court, yes.
Page 7527
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 7528
1 Q. And before that, had you visited a civilian court?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Were criminal proceedings instituted against you in the former
4 Yugoslavia for the crime of embezzlement?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you were convicted?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you tell us when this was?
9 A. I don't remember.
10 Q. Did you ever, before talking to Milos Savic, in any kind of
11 proceedings, give a statement at a police station?
12 A. No.
13 Q. In those criminal proceedings for embezzlement, you also gave no
14 statement to the police?
15 A. No.
16 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, can I --
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
18 MS. REIDY: I'd like to object to this line of questioning. I
19 have no problem with Defence counsel seeking to elicit whether or not a
20 witness has any prior convictions as quite the permissible. But to go
21 into details about the procedures and what he went through, has absolutely
22 no relevance to do with the indictment or this trial.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think my questions are relevant,
25 because they relate to the procedure and the proceedings, since the
Page 7529
1 witness has already confirmed that he had been a defendant in criminal
2 proceedings, I suppose the procedure that applied to citizens living on
3 the territory covered by those laws matters. That's why I want to
4 compare, together with him, the procedure applied then and the procedure
5 in the military court, his experience of the military court in Bijeljina.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Unless there's going to be evidence that the
7 procedures are the same, and even if that evidence was elicited, the
8 witness can only inform the Court as to what transpired when he appeared
9 himself, what he was told, what documents he was given.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to be allowed to
11 pursue this line of questioning because it refers to the procedure he
12 described in answering the Prosecutor's question. I don't want to ask any
13 questions about the previous matter. I just want to know how the criminal
14 proceedings against him were conducted.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.
16 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, again I'd object. These are not the same
17 proceedings. This was a criminal proceedings which was conducted in the
18 former Yugoslavia at some time. We're now talking about a procedure in
19 front of some sort of military court, in a time of conflict, by
20 authorities who the Prosecution case is -- that whole question of what law
21 they were applying, who the authorities were. It was -- you know, this is
22 a Republic of Srpska Bijeljina military court. I mean you cannot -- if
23 the Defence want to put evidence before this Chamber, then they can --
24 about proceedings and that, they can do that through their defence case,
25 if they wish to say that it was lawful or not. And I don't think that
Page 7530
1 comparing criminal proceedings from the former Yugoslavia that this
2 witness may have experienced several, several years ago and the military
3 proceedings to which he was -- appears to have been put through during his
4 time of detention in this time of conflict, where there are so many legal
5 issues outstanding and applicable law, et cetera, are in dispute before
6 this Court serves any evidential evidence and we would object to this line
7 of questioning being pursued as it's not relevant and is not permitted
8 within the Rules on cross-examination.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Prosecutor has asked
11 a number of questions regarding the procedure and presented documents
12 relating to that procedure before the military court in Bijeljina. I
13 don't see any reason why I'm not allowed to ask questions about the
14 proceedings conducted against him. If that is a topic raised by the
15 Prosecution. These are proceedings conducted against -- before a military
16 court. In previous cases, the Trial Chamber was interested in matters of
17 procedure.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: I think it's not a question of saying that you can't
19 cross-examine on the proceedings which the witness faced. I think it's a
20 question of interpretation as to what the relevance may be. But the Trial
21 Chamber will allow you, and follow your questions and see whether or not
22 it's proper cross-examination. So you can go ahead.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Do you remember what sentence was meted out to you in those
25 proceedings for embezzlement?
Page 7531
1 A. I apologise to the Trial Chamber, but I don't think I will
2 continue to answer this question and similar questions. I will, however,
3 be willing to answer different questions.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, you are going to ask questions dealing
5 with military court and the proceedings in Bijeljina which the Prosecution
6 was dealing with, and not these embezzlement proceedings, which the
7 Prosecution didn't deal with. So I'm surprised at your next question.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I wish to explain, Your Honours. In
9 the document introduced by the Prosecution, and that is the record of the
10 hearing of the accused before the investigating judge, it says that the
11 witness we have here has a prior record. That is a piece of information
12 contained in the document introduced by the Prosecution. If the Trial
13 Chamber doesn't wish me to, I will abandon this line of questioning. I'm
14 not insisting on your answer.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: I think the line of questioning dealing with the
16 embezzlement proceedings should be abandoned.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I accept the Chamber's decision.
18 Q. When you were at Milos Savic's office, you two were alone in
19 there, weren't you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And as far as I understood, he was typing right there in front of
22 you.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You confirmed yesterday the authenticity of your signature on that
25 statement, on both the first and the second page; isn't that right?
Page 7532
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You said that you had signed the statement without reading it.
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. During that investigating procedure, was there any coercion or
5 beating by Inspector Savic against you?
6 A. There was no coercion, but I was frightened.
7 Q. So he never addressed to you a word of threat?
8 A. No, he didn't.
9 Q. Can we agree that your fear was caused by the very fact that you
10 were before an inspector?
11 A. Yes, and because of all the things I had been through in the
12 previous days.
13 Q. And you also confirmed yesterday that the contents of this
14 statement is accurate, as far as your interview with him is concerned,
15 apart from the claim that you carried a rifle.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did he ask you at all about whether you were armed or not on that
18 day?
19 A. On that day he didn't ask me anything about it. He just asked me
20 where I was and what I did at the relevant time, and I told him all I had
21 to say about it.
22 Q. Yesterday, when you described this statement to Inspector Savic in
23 detail, on page 74, you said that setting off with Kemal Atic and passing
24 by the retirement home, you saw several young people.
25 A. Yes, young people.
Page 7533
1 Q. You mentioned Sladjan Grbic and Ibrahim Doslic; isn't that right?
2 A. Yes. I think Milan [sic] Savic was there as well.
3 Q. Do you remember that Junuz Atic was there as well?
4 A. I couldn't say.
5 Q. But you do know him?
6 A. I do.
7 Q. Did you see Sladjan Grbic in Samac after that event?
8 A. I don't understand what you mean by "in Samac." You mean moving
9 around freely?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Bear with me for a moment, Your Honours. I have a problem with
13 the transcript.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The answer was not recorded to my
15 question.
16 Q. Do you remember that on that occasion Junuz Atic was there as
17 well? The question was recorded, but not your answer. I'm asking you
18 again so that we can have your answer on record. Could you please repeat.
19 A. I don't remember.
20 Q. Did you perhaps see Sladjan Grbic later when you were detained?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you see him later, after you were released and exchanged?
23 A. No.
24 Q. So from the moment of your detention, you never saw him again?
25 A. No.
Page 7534
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would now like the Trial Chamber's
2 leave to present a document to this witness originating from the archives
3 of the military court in Bijeljina. I provided copies to the interpreters
4 and I would like the witness to read slowly a part of this document. For
5 the time being, we are only dealing with the B/C/S version, and I would
6 like to have it identified, marked for identification, as in previous
7 similar cases.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: What is the document about?
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It is the statement of Sladjan Grbic
10 given at the police station of Bosanski Samac in August 1992. I believe
11 it was given to Inspector Savic again, but I can't claim with any
12 certainty.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Now, Mr. Lukic, this is a statement made by somebody
14 else.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That is a statement by Sladjan Grbic,
16 given in the course of proceedings against this defendant, relating to the
17 facts that he knows relative to the 17th of April and the proceedings
18 concerned were against this witness here. Also, for your information, I
19 am advised that this person is now deceased.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: So how is his statement -- the contents of the
21 statement going to be tested?
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this statement was
23 evidenced in the proceedings conducted against our witness, and it had
24 probative value at the time when the proceedings were conducted against
25 him. I don't see why it has to be tested now, when we are concerned with
Page 7535
1 the credibility of this witness.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: No. My question was alluding to the information you
3 gave the Trial Chamber, that the maker of this statement is deceased. I
4 hope I heard you correctly. Is that correct?
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, you understood me correctly.
6 That can always be verified, and it is always one of the premises of my
7 defence that we can hear the inspector who took the statement. He can
8 confirm whether such a statement had ever been given or not.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.
10 MS. REIDY: Unless -- no. The Prosecution position is that we
11 object to the use of this document for many of the reasons that Your
12 Honour has already raised in questioning counsel about it. But again,
13 we're in the situation where they're trying to put a statement from a
14 third party to the witness. The counsel has said it was used in
15 proceedings conducted against this witness. We have no evidence to that
16 whatsoever. In fact, the only evidence before this Chamber is that no
17 documents or no evidence or no information of whatsoever kind was shown to
18 this witness during any proceedings. So these are all assertions by
19 counsel. If counsel, as part of their defence case, wish to make this
20 available to the Bench, then they can do that in the defence case. At the
21 moment, this stands here as a statement of a witness who is not only in
22 court but cannot come to court. We have no information about how it was
23 taken, about any truth as to the contents, about when it was used, how it
24 was used. If it's of assistance to the Bench, maybe the witness could say
25 whether or not he's ever seen this document before. But as I said, our
Page 7536
1 position is that we object to it being used at all. And if the Defence
2 want it as part of their Defence case, then let them introduce it during
3 their case.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I?
5 JUDGE MUMBA: You want to respond to that?
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, if you please.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] During previous cross-examination of
9 other witnesses, they were presented with statements, various statements,
10 by third parties, and that was allowed. For instance, in the case of
11 Witness M, it was allowed for a statement by a third party to be presented
12 to him, and also it is not disputed that such statements can be shown to
13 the witness regarding certain facts which may be important for determining
14 credibility. I believe the facts in question are relevant, and the
15 witness could tell us the very circumstances and comment on the very
16 circumstances relative to what he has told us about the 17th of April.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Maybe, because the other problem we have is we
18 haven't got the English translation. I'll allow you to ask the witness
19 whether he has seen this statement at any stage, and let's see how he
20 answers. And thereafter we will be able to decide whether or not we can
21 proceed with the contents of the statement.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have never seen this statement
23 before, before right here in The Hague.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may add one
25 explanation to assist the Trial Chamber in establishing the following
Page 7537
1 fact: Under the law on criminal proceedings that was applied at the time,
2 statements given at the SUP are not presented at criminal proceedings to
3 any single person. On the contrary; the person involved is questioned to
4 the circumstances. If that is of any help to you. So this witness could
5 never have seen this statement. That's perfectly natural.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't think so. The point here is that you can't
7 use this statement because it's made by another witness, and the other
8 witness [sic] is that the witness can't be tested on the contents of this
9 statement. So you can't use it with this witness. If you want to use
10 this statement at all, then you had better call somebody who knows
11 something about this statement, somebody like the recorder of the
12 statement perhaps.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Does that mean that another witness
14 could confirm that one person has said something without the possibility
15 of asking this witness if he knows anything about the incident? I
16 understood you as saying that certain witnesses can be presented with such
17 statements, while others can't.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. What I was saying is if you want to use
19 this statement at all, since you are saying that the maker of the
20 statement is dead, I was saying that perhaps you can call the person who
21 recorded it. So you can't use it with this witness. And the other
22 question is: Why is there no translation?
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just explained this
24 before. All the documents introduced by my learned friend from the
25 Prosecution that I provided her with were given to the CLSS on the 29th of
Page 7538
1 March.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Including this one?
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Including this one. That is a
4 document that was part of the criminal file in the military court in
5 Bijeljina against this witness here, and that's how I got this entire
6 file, this entire documentation that I presented to the Prosecution. I
7 was promised to get the translation of all these documents by the end of
8 this week.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Anyway, we'll proceed, since you can't
10 use it anyway.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I just wish to point out, because my
12 colleagues warned me, I want to add that this statement was an official
13 document, part of a court file in Bijeljina, and I got it as such. So it
14 is a document of a certain body, a certain authority, institution. It is
15 a document.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you've explained that, but you would have to
17 call evidence to that effect, because you are only counsel.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I accept this, of course, Your Honour.
19 Q. All right. I have a few more questions to ask you.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can this statement be marked for
21 identification or not at all?
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Not at all.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Q. Do you know of a weapon, an automatic weapon, called Zagi?
25 A. No.
Page 7539
1 Q. Did Kemal Atic have an automatic weapon of any kind on him on that
2 occasion?
3 A. He did have some kind of weapon, but I don't remember the type or
4 the make.
5 Q. Did he have several weapons?
6 A. I can't remember. He had a large, loose jacket, which made him
7 look big, and I don't know what he carried.
8 Q. I would now like to ask you some questions about the proceedings
9 before the court in Bijeljina. You said that you had only received a
10 verbal invitation from the competent persons in the prison that you should
11 go to the court in Bijeljina; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Are you aware that under the regulations applicable at the time,
14 no enactment or indictments are receivable by the person who is to appear
15 before an investigating judge?
16 A. No.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.
18 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, could I just have that struck again.
19 We've had this ongoing debate about what was or was not applicable at the
20 time. That's in dispute before this Chamber. And also, I don't believe
21 counsel has established that this witness who was a baker and owned
22 restaurants and was based in the food service industry would have any
23 insight, knowledge, into the law contained in military procedure. I think
24 the question is inappropriate and it's simply again an attempt to put into
25 evidence by Defence counsel something that is not yet in evidence.
Page 7540
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic. The objection is sustained.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness already gave me the
3 answer, but I would like to remind the Prosecutor that the witness
4 earlier, when asked by the Prosecutor, when he was shown a document, the
5 document P55, that when he said that he thought that that document was not
6 legally binding -- was not fair.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter correction.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] However, I will not be asking any more
9 questions about this.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: You see, Mr. Lukic, the witness may go on speaking
11 and make his own conclusion. That does not mean that the Trial Chamber
12 has accepted the conclusion of the witness. I remember that when he said
13 it was not clear, I remember that, but that does not mean his conclusions
14 are accepted by the Trial Chamber.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I had no doubts, but I would still
16 like him to explain his legal views.
17 Q. My question is as follows: You are a baker; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You're not a lawyer?
20 A. No.
21 Q. How did you know that for that criminal offence the penalty was
22 the death penalty?
23 A. Yes, because in the camp we had competent people who knew about
24 these things. They had -- some of them had completed law school, so they
25 knew.
Page 7541
1 Q. So when you were with the judges, you were told what you were
2 being prosecuted for or charged with?
3 A. I read the decision that I got, and I asked people what that was,
4 and I asked to have it explained to me later.
5 Q. What kind of a decision was this?
6 A. The decision that I was guilty. And what happened later, there
7 was no explanation. And I don't know, but I think that the Court still
8 has this decision.
9 Q. While you were answering the question of the
10 Prosecutor, you said that you did not receive any decision by the Court.
11 Yes or no.
12 A. I might have forgotten.
13 Q. So that means that in prison you received the decision of the
14 Court, in which you were explained that you were being charged with a
15 certain criminal offence? Yes or no.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And then you found out that the penalty for that crime was the
18 death penalty?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. On page 84 of yesterday's transcript, you said that in this room
21 where the judge was, except for the two people that brought you in, there
22 were two more people. Is that correct? Did I understand you correctly?
23 A. I don't understand. In the area of the court, or where?
24 Q. In the courtroom, in the room where the judge was, how many people
25 were there?
Page 7542
1 A. With me there were seven people.
2 Q. Could you please remember who was there? I will say what I
3 understood -- or actually, maybe you could just explain it once again.
4 A. In front of me there were two persons. On the left and the
5 right-hand side, there was one person -- there was one person each, and
6 then there was also one person on my left and on my right.
7 Q. But this was not a trial with a jury?
8 A. No.
9 Q. No evidence was led; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Was there a note taker present?
12 A. I didn't see any note taker.
13 Q. I would like to present to the witness once again P55 ter.
14 I would like you to turn to page 2. In the middle there it says,
15 under number 14, if you could please read out what it says there.
16 A. "Convicted."
17 Q. Above that there's a question. It says there something by 14?
18 A. "Has he ever been where and why convicted?"
19 Q. Did the judge ask you at this moment whether you have ever been
20 convicted before?
21 A. He has not asked me.
22 Q. Did you -- have you -- were you asked whether you were a baker?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Could you please read on the same page, under 10, what it says
25 there?
Page 7543
1 THE INTERPRETER: Under 8. Interpreter correction. Under 8.
2 A. Occupation, baker.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Could you please look more closer at this document. Could you
5 please tell us whether this is your signature. I think yesterday you said
6 that it was.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Also you said this morning to the Prosecutor that you might have
9 signed something but you were unsure because you were scared.
10 A. I think that's correct.
11 Q. Do you remember where you were signing these? In the courtroom or
12 in the hall?
13 A. Since I'm not certain, I can't remember.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
15 MS. REIDY: And again, Your Honour, I just wanted to have the
16 counsel correct his question. His question is: "Do you remember signing
17 these?" The witness has not said that he signed these. He said it was
18 his signature. He remembers signing something. Whether or not it is
19 these he remembers signing is the whole -- you know, it's up for debate.
20 It's not -- he doesn't have that clear a memory. So where he remembers
21 signing something is another question, but I think the witness has said he
22 really can't remember.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic. You understood what Ms. Reidy has
24 pointed out?
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't have the
Page 7544
1 transcript in front of me of today's statements and questions, but that's
2 why I wanted to clear this up. Since he said that he was also standing in
3 the hall, I asked him whether he might have remembered that he signed it
4 there, and he said, well, he doesn't, and therefore I don't think there
5 was anything wrong with my question.
6 Q. Could you please read on page 3, which is actually marked page 2,
7 but in reality it's actually page 3 -- you read to the Prosecutor this
8 part here that's highlighted. Could you please read what it says two
9 lines above this area that you have read out, just what it says in capital
10 letters and above. That's what I'm interested in, because this is not
11 something that you read out.
12 A. Do you mean this thing here that says Atic Kemal? I don't
13 understand.
14 Q. You read these parts that were highlighted, but the parts above
15 it, what does it say, and also the part above?
16 A. Oh, I see. You mean the decision?
17 Q. Correct. And then what does it say above that?
18 A. You mean above it? Would you like me to read the whole
19 paragraph? Where should I start from? I don't understand you.
20 Q. I'm interested in the line above the word "decision."
21 JUDGE MUMBA: You can show it to the witness and show him the
22 line, so that we can move on.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: And then the witness will have to wait until you get
25 your microphone on. So the witness should wait -- yes. The witness can
Page 7545
1 go ahead and read.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The investigating judge brings --"
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. And then it says there in capital letters?
5 A. "Decision."
6 Q. And the line above that one, the last sentence, the last sentence
7 in that paragraph, if you could please read that one out, slowly.
8 A. Did you say above?
9 Q. It says -- it starts with, "After the war events in Bosanski
10 Samac..." That is the very last sentence of the whole big paragraph:
11 "After the war events in Bosanski Samac ..."
12 A. "After the war events in Bosanski Samac, and especially the work
13 obligation, I worked in the village Zaselica and Pisari. I do not know
14 this village."
15 Q. You still claim that you have not said a single word to the
16 investigating judge?
17 A. Yes, because Zaselica does not exist in the municipality of
18 Bosanski Samac.
19 Q. And in Pisari you were digging trenches?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. That you confirmed?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. This fact about Pisari and digging trenches, you didn't mention
24 this to Savic in your statement?
25 A. Well, he didn't ask me about that. He asked me about that
Page 7546
1 particular day: Where I was going and where I was moving on the day of
2 April 17th of 1992. He wasn't interested in the rest.
3 Q. So the investigating judge put something into the record that you
4 did not say to him?
5 A. I don't think it's true that I said this, because he didn't ask me
6 about the days that I was going to work under the work obligation. I
7 don't think that was necessary.
8 Q. But he still guessed that you were working as part of the work
9 obligation in Pisari?
10 A. Of course he knew, because he was the one that organised it.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, you can't put that to the witness,
12 whether or not the investigating judge guessed.
13 MS. REIDY: There are a million different ways he could have known
14 that, particularly because he was part of the same authorities that forced
15 this witness to dig trenches.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The investigating judge -- I
17 understand, Your Honour.
18 Q. The investigating judge entered into the record the fact that you
19 were working in Pisari, but you didn't mention this fact to Milos Savic?
20 A. I see that now, but I have no idea what he was entering. He did
21 not ask me that.
22 Q. While you were at Milos Savic's and at the investigating judge,
23 you signed more than once a record; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And it cannot be -- there is no doubt that it is your signature,
Page 7547
1 the signature that is on the statement of the investigating judge?
2 A. I think I already said once that we were not allowed to read what
3 was said on the document. We were only allowed to sign the document.
4 Q. I would like to ask you just to read one part of that statement,
5 on page 2, second paragraph -- actually, last paragraph, on the very
6 bottom of the page.
7 A. "The defendant has been advised -- the defendant has been informed
8 that he was appointed counsel ex officio, Krunic Ziko, attorney from
9 Bijeljina. The request to undertake the investigation has been read of
10 the military court in Bijeljina, IVTK, number 22/92, 2 -- January 1st
11 1993."
12 Q. I would like to ask you to read the next paragraph, please, now.
13 A. "The accused has been informed that he does not have to defend
14 himself, although in doing so, he can jeopardise his criminal and legal
15 position, after which the accused stated that he wants to give his
16 statement based on the request to undertake the investigation."
17 Q. Thank you. And underneath this text is your signature?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did somebody force you to sign this?
20 A. In my opinion and knowledge, yes, because I underwent so many
21 beatings; therefore, I didn't dare to say a single word.
22 Q. I didn't ask you about your feelings; I asked you whether somebody
23 forced you there on the spot to sign this statement?
24 A. I wasn't talking about my feelings; I was talking about the
25 beatings that I underwent and about my fear, and I signed everything
Page 7548
1 because I was afraid.
2 Q. You again did not answer my question. Did somebody force you
3 there, on that spot?
4 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I think this is now badgering the
5 witness. The witness has made clear that he felt afraid whenever he
6 signed documents. We still have not established whether this witness
7 specifically remembers signing this page. He acknowledges the signature,
8 that at some stage being required to sign some documents. He testified
9 today, and this particular page that the counsel is now examining on, was
10 one of the pages that, not through fault of Defence counsel but through
11 clerical error was not disclosed to us. The witness saw it, read it for
12 the first time after he had taken his oath when he was sitting here, and
13 it has never established that he actually remembers, recalling signing
14 this document, and now he's saying that when he signed things he felt
15 afraid. So now -- this is now badgering the witness because he's being
16 asked when he signed this particular document, again a fact in dispute
17 whether or not someone forced him. So he cannot ask him if someone forced
18 him to sign it when he doesn't specifically acknowledge signing this
19 particular document or even recalls he may have signed any number of
20 documents put to him during his time in detention.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The witness has explained as to what had
22 happened to him and his state of mind at the time. Counsel is asking
23 whether if at all he did sign, at the time he was signing, was there
24 somebody standing right there and telling him or ordering him to sign? I
25 think that's the question of counsel.
Page 7549
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that was my question.
2 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour, and our objection is still that
3 counsel has not established that the witness recalls specifically signing
4 this particular page. He acknowledges his signature, but he has not
5 recalled signing this specific page.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that is noted, Ms. Reidy.
7 Yes. Perhaps the witness can answer.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. I would like to ask you just to say whether somebody forced you or
10 coerced you in any way when you were -- if you were signing this.
11 A. No.
12 Q. You gave a statement to the Prosecution on the 23rd of April,
13 1998; is that correct?
14 A. I don't understand. What year?
15 Q. April 23rd, 1998, you gave a statement to the Prosecution of the
16 Tribunal?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. Have you maybe read this statement now that you were in The Hague,
19 before you testified here?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you stand by this statement?
22 A. Yes.
23 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, can I make it clear, because Mr. Lukic
24 appears not to be putting it on the record. This is not a signed
25 statement of the witness. It is a statement which was a short three-page
Page 7550
1 statement which was taken indeed from the witness. It specifically says
2 in bold at the end of it, "This statement was not read to the witness and,
3 therefore, the witness has not had opportunity to verify or acknowledge
4 the accuracy and truth of the statement." And the witness's signature
5 appears nowhere on the statement. So if he wants to ask him whether he
6 adopts specific things he says in it now, then the witness should at least
7 be given the opportunity to read and address specific questions from
8 counsel.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Is counsel -- okay. Let me wait for the
10 interpretation to be completed.
11 Mr. Lukic, does that statement you're holding have the contents
12 spelled out by Ms. Reidy, saying that the statement was not read to the
13 witness?
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, this statement does say that
15 the -- that it was not reread to the witness, and therefore my question --
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Your question was misleading to the witness,
17 when you say: "Do you stand by this statement?" He could have said yes,
18 not understanding the implication what he's answering to. So your
19 question was misleading.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] All right. I do not want to create
21 any kind of a trap.
22 Q. I asked you whether you read the statement which you have not
23 signed and whether you read it in The Hague.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you have enough time to read it?
Page 7551
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you stand by everything that is stated in this document?
3 A. Yes. My statement -- I stand behind my statement of 1998.
4 Q. Did you say at that time to the Prosecutor, and relevant to your
5 interrogation in Bijeljina, the following question. I will read you - the
6 following statement. I will read you what is stated in this document:
7 "When the judge made his decision, he asked me to sign it. I
8 refused to sign it, and the judge ordered police to take me to the
9 correctional centre."
10 Is that something you said in 1998?
11 A. Yes. Yes.
12 Q. And now you said, in front of the Chamber, that, out of fear, you
13 signed the statement.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Please explain. Which is true?
16 A. I don't know what you're looking for. I signed the statement out
17 of fear, which you know, and you know even today that I have this fear.
18 And it is true whether he gave me the statement on the very same day and
19 whether I was taken to the correctional -- or when they first brought me
20 to the correctional centre, I don't remember that.
21 Q. But you said that you signed it?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. That's important to clarify.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Maybe it's time to make a break now,
25 Your Honours.
Page 7552
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 7553
1 JUDGE MUMBA: There's two more minutes.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to move on to another topic.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. We can have our break and resume at
4 1805.
5 --- Recess taken at 5.43 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 6.06 p.m.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic. You continue with
8 cross-examination.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. I will read out to you one more sentence from your statement to
11 the OTP from year 1998, when you said the following, and it has to do with
12 the same trial at the military court in Bijeljina:
13 "After a while I was taken to the courthouse in Bijeljina. I was
14 given a Serb defence counsel. I was not allowed to talk during the
15 trial."
16 During saying that to the Prosecutor?
17 A. I believe so, yes. I'm not sure.
18 Q. When you were giving your statement to the OTP in 1998, you knew
19 for a fact that a defence counsel had been assigned to you at the military
20 court in Bijeljina?
21 A. That is something I heard from that policeman, but I was not shown
22 around or told what was what and who was who.
23 Q. But yesterday, in response to a question from the Prosecutor, you
24 didn't say that you knew you had a defence counsel, a court-appointed
25 lawyer.
Page 7554
1 A. It was a long time ago. I can't remember everything.
2 Q. So you were informed by the policeman there in the courtroom that
3 a defence counsel had been assigned to you, but you were not introduced to
4 him; is that correct? Did I understand you correctly?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I would now like to introduce, only for identification again, one
7 of those documents that I received from the file in the military court in
8 Bijeljina, and again regrettably I only have the B/C/S version. I would
9 like the witness to read out only one sentence. The document has been
10 distributed to the OTP, and the interpreters.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation continues] ...
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The document is entitled "Decision on
13 the appointment of defence counsel."
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number for identification
15 only.
16 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D39/3 ter ID, Your Honours.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, I should like to ask you to read out the
19 highlighted portion. There is a date at the top. You can read the title
20 of the document and the highlighted section.
21 A. "Decision on the appointment of defence counsel. The accused,
22 Kemal Mehinovic, is assigned Ziko Krunic from Bijeljina as defence
23 counsel. The accused, Kemal Mehinovic --"
24 Q. Could you please read the date at the top?
25 A. The 9th of January, 1993.
Page 7555
1 Q. Can you confirm that above the words "accused Kemal Mehinovic"
2 there is wording that reads: "The following is notified to." Column.
3 A. Yes. And I am among those who are notified.
4 Q. Yes, but you have never seen this document before?
5 A. No.
6 Q. I should now like to have shown to this witness document P56 ter
7 ID, which we have already used today.
8 You have analysed this document with the Prosecutor earlier today,
9 haven't you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The Prosecutor asked you to read the date at the top, and you said
12 27th March; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you know that the military court in Bijeljina was located in
15 the 27th March Street?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you know that there is such a street named 27th March in
18 Bijeljina?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you know that the 27th March is an important date in the
21 history of the former Yugoslavia?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Below that date which you read out as the 27th of March, there are
24 other numbers. Could you please read them, two lines.
25 A. I can only read the number, number 1993.
Page 7556
1 Q. And below that?
2 A. I don't know whether it's a 19 or a 9, January, 1993.
3 Q. That was the date when you were before the investigating judge, as
4 we ascertained.
5 A. I think so. I don't know.
6 Q. Please look again at this signature, which is poorly legible. Do
7 you assert that this is not your signature?
8 A. Kemal -- this is not my signature. I sign differently.
9 Q. What about Mehinovic?
10 A. The Mehinovic part looks right, looks like mine, but the word,
11 "Kemal" is almost printed, and I write differently.
12 Q. So you claim that you never signed this document?
13 A. I didn't.
14 Q. Thank you. I'm now going to move on to a different topic. On
15 page 86 of yesterday's transcript, you stated, and you confirmed to me,
16 that in January 1993 you were taken to the military court in Bijeljina.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And a month after that you were taken to the correctional
19 centre -- for a month after that.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. You were taken there directly from the courthouse?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you spent there about a month?
Page 7557
1 A. Perhaps more.
2 Q. And you said that after that you were returned to Batkovici?
3 A. Yes, that's what I said.
4 Q. When did that happen, roughly? Was it the middle of February?
5 A. Possibly.
6 Q. You also said today that after returning to Batkovici, you saw
7 Tadic.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And then you described that incident with Sabah Seric?
10 A. His name was Sabah.
11 Q. But you claim that it was after your arrival from the correctional
12 centre?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You also said you sighted him in July as well, in Batkovici.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You never saw him after that, did you?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You are claiming before this Court that for the first time you saw
19 Tadic was in December -- was in --
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get the month.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. After your appearance before the Court?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And --
25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Lukic, the interpreter didn't get the year
Page 7558
1 [sic], line 12, page 77, line 12. The first time you saw Tadic was in
2 December -- maybe you can fill in the year.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. So I'm interested in knowing when you saw Tadic in Batkovici after
5 you came back from the court and after the correctional centre?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You spent about a month in the correctional centre after you were
8 brought back from the Court?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you also said that you saw Tadic sometime in July of that
11 year.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So all of this is happening in year 1993; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And it was then that you saw Sabah Seric giving Tadic this 100
16 Deutschmark and promising him more money?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. That was after you gave your statement to the Court?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You're sure?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to show this witness
23 document D25/3. I would like him to be shown the B/C/S version, D25/3
24 ter.
25 Q. Please look at the document first, and then we can put it on the
Page 7559
1 ELMO so that it is visible to others in the courtroom. Will you please
2 read the person under number 24.
3 A. Seric, son of Hasan, Sarhat [phoen], born 1950. That's not the
4 same person. Sabah Seric is the son of Hasan, but he was born in Bosanski
5 Samac in 1955.
6 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lukic. Could you tell us what
7 this document is? Because we're -- we have so many documents. We're a
8 little bit in the dark here knowing what list this is until we see it on
9 the ELMO.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I did indeed want to put it on the
11 ELMO, but I wanted the witness to see it first. It is the list of people
12 scheduled to be exchanged in Dragalic on the 15th of June, 1993, through
13 the Exchange Commission.
14 Q. So you are claiming it's not the same man?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you know Saban Seric, who was born in 1950?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. But this Sabah Seric also has the father by the name of Hasan?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you claim that he left Batkovici after your return to
21 Batkovici?
22 A. Yes.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation continues] ...I don't think
24 you are discussing --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone. Microphone, please.
Page 7560
1 MR. LUKIC: Excuse me, Your Honour. The document is D25/3.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Is it the one dated --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Mumba.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, is it the one dated the 24th of December, 1992?
5 MR. LUKIC: That's right, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
7 MR. LUKIC: 24th of December, 1992.
8 Q. [Interpretation] You claim that Saban Seric, son of Hasan, who
9 gave money to Tadic, was exchanged later?
10 A. I'm sorry, but I don't know any Saban Seric, son of Hasan.
11 Q. How about Sabah Seric, son of Hasan, whom you claim gave money to
12 Tadic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You said he was exchanged after you returned to Batkovici.
15 A. He was taken away from Batkovici.
16 Q. So it's impossible that he was exchanged in December 1993 [sic].
17 Is it a frequent name, Sabah Seric?
18 A. There are perhaps three of them in Samac, but they don't have the
19 same surname.
20 Q. Were you in Batkovici in December 1992?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. But you said a moment ago that Tadic was not visiting at the time.
23 A. I don't know. I was out working at the time.
24 Q. So you saw him only when you were there on the spot?
25 A. Yes.
Page 7561
1 Q. You also mentioned today his second coming to Batkovici. You said
2 that he was standing together with the warden when a certain Dragan,
3 little dragon, a soldier, assigned you into groups, Muslims on one side,
4 Croats on another side, and people from Samac in the middle.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. This Dragan, little dragon, was he working in Batkovici as a guard
7 or something?
8 A. He was one of the guards.
9 Q. Did guards wear uniforms?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Was the warden wearing a uniform?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you know that in Batkovici the approval of the competent
14 military authorities was required for someone to be exchanged?
15 A. No.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have another document that I would
17 like to have marked for identification, from the same file of the criminal
18 case, and I need to deal with only two or three sentences from this
19 document with the witness. This is a communication from the collection
20 centre in Batkovici, addressed to the military court in Bijeljina.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number for identification, please.
22 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D40/3 ter ID, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, I don't suppose you saw this document before.
Page 7562
1 A. No, I didn't.
2 Q. Will you please read out slowly the portions highlighted in
3 yellow, starting from the top.
4 A. "Collection centre, Batkovici, 18th February 1993. Military
5 secret. Confidential. List of persons who are defendants in criminal
6 proceedings. Hereby provided to the military court in Bijeljina. In
7 response to your request, we are sending the list of persons who are
8 defendants in criminal proceedings. Persons currently located at the
9 collection centre: 1 -- number 9, Sead Mehinovic, son of Muradif, born
10 1956, Bosanski Samac."
11 I don't know who this person is.
12 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, was your father's name Muradif?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And were you born in 1956 in Bosanski Samac?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So all of your personal details as indicated here are correct
17 except for the name?
18 A. The name is not correct or the date. There is no date of birth,
19 actually, just the year.
20 Q. I would now like you to look through the entire list. Is the date
21 of birth indicated for anyone at all?
22 A. I'm only interested in myself.
23 Q. I asked you: Do you see the date of birth indicated for any other
24 person? Answer me with a yes or no.
25 A. No.
Page 7563
1 Q. In February of 1993, you were in Batkovici; correct?
2 A. Yes. I don't think I was there. I was in the correctional centre
3 in February. Maybe half of the month, early February or mid-February. I
4 was returned on the 2nd -- I was returned in February, but I don't know on
5 which date.
6 Q. So in the second part of February you were returned?
7 A. I was thinking of the second part of February, but I do not
8 remember when exactly.
9 Q. And you are not aware that the military authorities had to give
10 their approval?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Could you please tell me whether you know the name of the warden
13 of the correctional centre that you -- into whose office you went when
14 Tadic was there?
15 A. While I was there, three persons occupied that position. I think
16 at that point -- I'm not quite sure. I think it was Djoko Pajic, Major
17 Djoko Pajic.
18 Q. While you were detained, both the TO and later in Batkovici, did
19 you manage to have any kind of a communication going with your wife?
20 A. No.
21 Q. While you were at the TO building, did you have any communication?
22 A. No.
23 Q. But after you were released from prison, she told you that she
24 went -- she was exchanged in March of 1993?
25 A. Yes. We communicated in Batkovici through the International Red
Page 7564
1 Cross. I was informed about my wife's exchange after they couldn't find
2 her in Bosanski Samac.
3 Q. But you told the Prosecutor - that's why I'm interested in this.
4 When did she tell you this. She said she didn't want to be exchanged. She
5 told you this when you were released, after you were released?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Then she told you that she and the children were released in the
8 summer of 1993?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did she tell you at that time that earlier she had registered to
11 be exchanged?
12 A. I do not know. She didn't tell me that then.
13 Q. Did she not mention this to you at all, that she registered with
14 the International Red Cross for voluntary exchange?
15 A. No.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.
17 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, again I think the witness said that the
18 wife said nothing of that kind to him. Counsel has said it again. If he
19 has evidence that she registered with the International Red Cross for the
20 exchange, then let him put that. He certainly has disclosed no evidence
21 to the Prosecution of that effect and I let it go once when he asked him,
22 but he asked him again and the witness simply said no, the wife never said
23 to him that she registered. So again, I object to him constantly asking
24 the question when he's again putting evidence on the record which is not
25 before this Tribunal.
Page 7565
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, he can cross-examine along the lines that
2 he did, because one assumes that when the Defence case opens, he will
3 support that challenge, the Defence will support that challenge to the
4 Prosecution witness.
5 Mr. Lukic, you can proceed.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's exactly the point, because I
7 intend in my proceedings to show what the procedure was to register for
8 exchange with the IRC.
9 I have two further questions. I would like the witness to be
10 shown the document introduced by the Prosecutor. I need to find the
11 number. It's a list of exchanges when his wife and children were
12 exchanged. If the Prosecutor could help me with this, I'd be very
13 grateful. I just need the number of that document.
14 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I'm following the same transcript as
15 Defence counsel. I believe it was --
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Here it is. I have it. It's P58 ter.
17 Q. I only have one question, Mr. Mehinovic. Could you please read
18 out what is said under 102.
19 A. Srna Hanka. I can read here. It says she returned, and it says
20 1935. It might be her date of birth -- her year of birth, but I'm not
21 quite sure what's said in the rest of it.
22 Q. Frankly, I can't read it either. Did you know this person?
23 A. Srna Hanka. I'm not sure. I think this was the mother of Mirsad
24 Srna, who was with me. He was detained with me [sic].
25 Q. Are you familiar from what your wife told you, or personally, that
Page 7566
1 certain people refused to be exchanged and they returned home?
2 A. I don't think we discussed this. I was not in any mood to have
3 this conversation.
4 Q. When I asked you before whether you remember anything that has to
5 do with this exchange, when Tadic came to TO - this means we're going back
6 to the first period - do you remember the name of any of the people that
7 were exchanged at that time when Tadic came, somebody who was with you at
8 the TO? If you could think about it a little bit, because it would assist
9 us.
10 A. I'm not sure. I think it might have been Muhamed Bicic and Zlatko
11 Radic. There were more Croats. I'm not quite sure what happened that
12 day, but I think those two people were there.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no
14 further questions.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: The next counsel to cross-examine?
16 Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.
17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. On behalf of
18 Mr. Zaric's Defence I will conduct the cross-examination of this witness.
19 Cross-examined by Mr. Lazarevic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Mehinovic, good afternoon.
21 A. Good afternoon.
22 Q. My name is Aleksandar Lazarevic. I am Defence counsel of Mr. Simo
23 Zaric. I'm going to lead this cross-examination.
24 Before I begin with my questions, I would like to express my
25 client's regret because of what you suffered in Bosnia. He asked me to
Page 7567
1 express this to you.
2 A. I do not accept that.
3 Q. Before I begin with my questions, I would like you to have in mind
4 what my colleague Mr. Lukic already reminded you of. If we could be very
5 short in the answers, if you could answer with "yes" or "no" or "I do not
6 know." If a certain question is not clear, could you please let me know
7 that you do not understand the question so that I could make it clearer.
8 In that way, we could shorten this procedure and save some time to the
9 Court.
10 Mr. Mehinovic, during the Prosecutor's examination, you were asked
11 and you were also looking at a document - you were asked to identify
12 certain persons of Muslim ethnicity that were members of the 4th
13 Detachment. You did that quite quickly and well, and I would think that
14 you are a good witness, with whom we could clear up some issues with the
15 4th Detachment.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, do you know when the 4th Detachment was founded?
18 A. I do not.
19 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, you have never seen a list of the members of the
20 4th Detachment written on a paper, a piece of paper?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I apologise, because this question was -- started with a negation,
23 which means that your "yes" means that you did not see the list?
24 A. Yes. I did not see any lists of the 4th Detachment, but it
25 doesn't mean that the people that I listed today are the exclusive members
Page 7568
1 of the 4th Detachment.
2 Q. That's not what I'm suggesting at all. You also did not see a
3 list of the command of the 4th Detachment, in other words, those people
4 that were commanding that detachment?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Also you have never seen the 4th Detachment in a line, in other
7 words, you never saw the members of the 4th Detachment at the same place,
8 at the same time?
9 A. No.
10 Q. The 4th Detachment was a member of the Yugoslav national army; is
11 that correct?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, have you ever heard of the 17th Tactical Group of
14 the JNA?
15 A. No.
16 Q. While you were giving your statement and while you were being
17 interrogated by the Prosecutor, you mentioned Mr. Lieutenant Colonel
18 Nikolic; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you know that this Nikolic that you mentioned was the commander
21 of the 17th Tactical Group?
22 A. I do not know that.
23 Q. You also said before this Chamber that there were certain issues
24 about -- that you talked to your friend Danilo about joining the 4th
25 Detachment; is that correct?
Page 7569
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In order to identify this person, is this Vitomir Danilo? Is that
3 his full name?
4 A. I don't know his last name, but he always used to say my Gavro,
5 Gavro was his father. If this person's father is also named Gavro, that
6 would be the same person.
7 Q. Let's clear this up again. Is this person Danilo, is that the
8 same person that was wounded by Adis Izetbegovic before all these events
9 and also Srna Safet? Is this the same person?
10 A. Yes, that's the same person, but I do not know who he was wounded
11 by.
12 Q. But in any case, you know he was wounded?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. With some other people?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You said during the Prosecutor's examination that even before the
17 outbreak of hostilities in Samac, members of the 4th Detachment were
18 wearing civilian clothes and that they carried weapons underneath their
19 clothes.
20 A. Yes, that's what I said.
21 Q. So you never saw them in uniforms around Samac?
22 A. No. There were no uniforms at that point.
23 Q. And this carrying of weapons underneath clothes, how could you be
24 sure that it was weapons?
25 A. Because some of them -- with some of them you could see parts of
Page 7570
1 the weapons while they were moving.
2 Q. Could you be a little bit more precise with regard to this? Could
3 you tell me exactly the name or the last name of that person or those
4 persons which sometimes would reveal as having weapons underneath their
5 clothes?
6 A. Well, this Danilo, and then also there was Atic Muhamed, with the
7 nickname Hamko, a very good friend of his.
8 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] I think we have dealt enough with
9 the 4th Detachment. Now I would like to move on to another topic.
10 [In English] Your Honours, at this moment I believe that I'm going
11 to ask for a closed session, because I will mention certain name of a
12 witness that was protected, and I cannot assert to this witness, Witness
13 A, B, C, D, or something, because I do need to use his name. It will take
14 maybe two minutes, not more, but I believe it is a good moment, because
15 after that I won't need the closed session any further until the end of my
16 cross-examination.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll go into I think private session.
18 [Private session]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 7571
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [Open session]
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, let's move on to this day now, the 17th of April of
18 1992. You have already given your statement that has to do with these
19 events. The statement was very detailed. I would now be interested only
20 in certain details that I think we could clear up a bit further. You said
21 that early in the morning, around 6.00, you started going towards your
22 bakery.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And that you came to the bakery and that you met your brother, who
25 told you to go home. I am interested to know about this. It's early in
Page 7572
1 the morning, at 6.00, you're going towards the bakery. Did you see any
2 fighting in the city?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you see any soldiers at that point, from 6.00 onward, until
5 you came back?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you maybe see any military vehicles, transporters, any kind of
8 military equipment moving about the town?
9 A. From the direction of my house towards the bakery, no, I did not
10 see any.
11 Q. So after this, you come back home, and you said that around 8.00,
12 8.30 you met a group of people, including brothers Bicic, Hasan and
13 Muhamed, Ibrahim Salkic, and some other young men, all together maybe
14 around 20 people?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, in order to go faster, I would like to give you
17 some names, and you will tell me whether these names belong to the people
18 that were there along with brothers, Salkic and others, if you remember.
19 I will be reading you names, one after another, and you will be saying
20 "yes" if they were members of that group; if they were not, you would say
21 "no," and that's how we will proceed.
22 A. Is there also an option of me saying, "I don't know"?
23 Q. Absolutely. First one: Dzakic Damir.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Ferhat Sahacic.
Page 7573
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Muharem Drljacic.
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Mirsad Srna.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Salko Srna.
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. Muharem Jasarevic.
9 A. No.
10 Q. Suad Hodzic.
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Fadil Sabanovic.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Esad Dagovic.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Safet Dagovic.
17 A. No.
18 Q. Osman Mesic, nicknamed Semso.
19 A. I don't remember.
20 Q. Atic Ratif, called Raif.
21 A. Not in that group.
22 Q. And you already said that Atic Kemal, called Kilo, was already
23 there, so that's already been covered.
24 A. Let me please say something. If that is -- if this is true, it is
25 known. I did mention in my statement Ibela's group was going from the
Page 7574
1 pensioners' retirement home when we were going from the school towards the
2 department store. Then certain other people joined us, like Dedo, Atic,
3 and also a young man called Safet Srna. There's a difference here.
4 Q. Thank you very much for this explanation. So this group, without
5 these people that you mentioned just now -- I just wanted to ask you,
6 because you were mentioning the school: There is a primary school and a
7 secondary school in Samac. Did you go up to the primary or the secondary
8 school?
9 A. The street is right next to the school yard, at the very end of
10 Vuk Karadzic Street. That's the primary school.
11 Q. So when you were coming back from the school, from the direction
12 of the school, you were joined by a certain other number of citizens?
13 A. That is not correct.
14 Q. I think we're speaking the same language. Please explain.
15 A. I have said enough. I saw 20 young men who were going from the
16 direction of the retirement home to the school, and I joined them when I
17 left my home, but I never said that other people joined.
18 Q. I said when they were coming back from there. You just told me
19 about Atic and Dedo.
20 A. Yes. This was in the city centre. This has nothing to do with
21 the school or up to the school.
22 Q. I apologise. I did not want to suggest anything about the answer,
23 and I assume that now we have reached an understanding about what
24 happened.
25 So now we're talking about this first group that is going towards
Page 7575
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Page 7576
1 the school. You had already mentioned that they were armed.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. They told you that they were going to Donja Mahala to defend their
4 people from the massacre. I think that's the expression you used.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you went with them?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. While you were going towards the school, did you maybe see any
9 military in that part of the town?
10 A. No.
11 Q. From your answers, I would say that my next question is maybe
12 superfluous, but I will ask it anyway. Was anybody shooting at you?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Neither was the group that you were in shooting at anybody else?
15 A. No.
16 Q. While you were going there, and during your return, did you maybe
17 see Izet Izetbegovic?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Maybe my question was a little bit early. I should have asked you
20 first: Do you know Izet Izetbegovic?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So you joined the group that told you that they were going to
23 Donja Mahala to defend their people -- their nation, their people, against
24 murder?
25 A. Yes.
Page 7577
1 Q. But you were not armed?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Mr. Mehinovic, according to your statement and what you heard from
4 them, you were going to a location at which a massacre was taking place?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you were not taking any weapons with you?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you think that you would protect the people with your bare
9 hands?
10 A. I didn't think anything.
11 Q. I will ask only one more question, because we are at the end of
12 today's session. You said that Ibrahim Salkic, Ibela, was in front of
13 this Carrington building, which belonged to a certain person called Biber,
14 and that he had a walkie-talkie and that he went into the
15 house and that he told you later that he talked to Lieutenant Nikolic.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was this discussion, this talk that Salkic had with Nikolic,
18 influential in any way so that the tension in this group was a little bit
19 alleviated and people went home?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. LAZAREVIC: It's 7.00.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll adjourn our proceedings until tomorrow
23 at 1415 hours.
24 MS. REIDY: Your Honour?
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
Page 7578
1 MS. REIDY: Could I elicit from Defence counsel if they have any
2 idea how long they think the cross might take, just so I can advise
3 Victim/Witness but also as to when the next witness will be available.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Lazarevic, How much more do you think it
5 will take?
6 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I hope that it won't take more than
7 one hour, maybe one hour and a half, but I don't believe that it will take
8 more.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Zecevic?
10 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, half an hour, 40 minutes, maximum.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic?
12 MR. PANTELIC: I think less than half an hour, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Thank you.
14 Ms. Reidy, I think you can work that one out.
15 The Court will rise.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,
17 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 8th day of May,
18 2002, at 2.15 p.m.
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