1 Friday, 7 June 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic and

9 Simo Zaric.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution is continuing

11 examination-in-chief.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, just before I do, Ms. Reidy

13 looked into the question of authenticity of exhibits yesterday and --

14 yesterday afternoon, and I think is in a position to inform the Chamber of

15 what precisely the Defence have agreed and haven't agreed, and possibly

16 lay to rest any misgivings about authenticity that might be troubling the

17 Defence.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Ms. Reidy?

19 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll just be one minute.

20 Yesterday, Mr. Pantelic referred to correspondence inter partes concerning

21 authenticity. This was a document the Defence sent us on the 15th of

22 September, 2001, indicating those which they have no objection to on

23 admissibility or authenticity, the majority of them, and a number where

24 they had no objection to admissibility but had objections to the

25 authenticity of it and they requested that they -- that we produce the

1 original documents for inspection, and if we could provide an additional

2 description of when, where, and by whom the above-specified documents were

3 seized in order to resolve the issue of authenticity.

4 All of that was complied with. I'm afraid I can't tell you the

5 exact date of the response because my cover note is missing from the file.

6 Within a matter of days, I supplied to all the Defence counsel a copy of

7 the signed receipt of, I believe it was 258 -- or 158 documents, that we

8 received with a signed receipt from Mirko Lukic, who was President of

9 the Municipal Assembly of the municipality of Bosanski Samac on the 11th

10 of June, 1998. It explains clearly where the documents came from, who

11 they given to, where they were taken from. It was given to each Defence

12 counsel.

13 I consulted with them this morning. They acknowledge having

14 received it. Mr. Pantelic acknowledges having received this back in

15 September. It seems to me that he has -- since then, we heard nothing

16 back from him, having provided everything they wanted on the matter of

17 authenticity and where we got the documents from. And if he still has

18 objections, he has given us no indications what steps since September he

19 has taken to further raise with us any issues of authenticity. But

20 following that correspondence back in September, the only outstanding

21 matter, in fact, with Variant A/B document, which has been dealt with, and

22 one of the documents that was admitted in that process of verification of

23 the Variant A/B document. So as far as the Prosecution is concerned, we

24 had correspondence with the parties over this. We provided them with all

25 the information, and it just seems that Mr. Pantelic has let this slip his

1 mind since September that we provided the information about where and from

2 whom, et cetera, these documents came from. And he certainly never came

3 back to the Prosecution on any document beyond Variant A/Variant B since

4 September last year.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, the Prosecution. Yes, Mr. Pantelic?

6 MR. PANTELIC: Very briefly, Your Honour, it's not so big matter

7 to have the time for discussing. I don't have in my record -- just to

8 correct Ms. Reidy, I don't have this letter in my archive so I have to

9 check with my friends. They will be probably very kind to check their

10 records. And in the break, we shall resolve the matter.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think it's a matter you can resolve, find out

12 from your documents and deal with it with the Prosecution.

13 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Just for the record, I didn't receive that

14 letter. Thank you.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: We continue, Mr. Di Fazio.

16 WITNESS: STEVAN TODOROVIC [Resumed]

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

19 Can the witness be shown Exhibit P36? May I just see it briefly

20 before it's presented to the witness? That's the one. Thank you.

21 Examined by Mr. Di Fazio: [Continued]

22 Q. Mr. Todorovic, just quickly have a look at that document and

23 acquaint yourself with its general nature. I won't be long on the

24 document, Mr. Todorovic. If you could just skim through it and

25 essentially get an idea of its nature, what it's generally about, okay?

1 First of all, the signature, can you tell us again, and I appreciate --

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lazarevic is on his feet.

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: I apologise to my learned colleague. If the B/C/S

4 could be placed on the ELMO for our clients, because they don't know what

5 the document is that we are talking about because the English version is

6 on the ELMO.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Perhaps the Prosecution has always to make sure you

8 have a photocopy of the B/C/S, the rest of the document, so that can be on

9 the ELMO.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: For the sake of convenience, I've got my own B/C/S

11 version here -- I have a blank version.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: If you have a clean copy, yes, put it on the ELMO,

13 please.

14 MR. DI FAZIO:

15 Q. Now to return to my question, just the signature again,

16 Mr. Todorovic. I know you're not a handwriting expert and you're not

17 being asked to comment as a handwriting expert, but can you give --

18 A. I apologise but I have a document on one -- I have one document

19 and there is another document on the ELMO.

20 Q. All right.

21 MR. PANTELIC: We have B/C/S version, Your Honours, if that may be

22 of assistance, to speed up things.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.

24 MR. DI FAZIO:

25 Q. Just answer that one question and then I'll finish with the

1 document. You recognise the signature?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. Whose is it?

4 MR. PANTELIC: I do apologise, Your Honour, again. Yesterday, my

5 learned friend from the Prosecution passed through all these questions.

6 This witness said he stands beside these documents. I really don't see

7 why we have to go this repetitive -- he answered a number of questions

8 about this very document, Your Honour. And he said, "I stand beside this

9 document, I -- my lawyer was not in my office. I called another lawyer."

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, he explained.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't intend to dwell on the document. That was

12 the only matter I wanted to raise and I'll leave it alone. The document

13 can be finished with.

14 Would Your Honours just bear with me for one moment? Thank you.

15 If Your Honours please, I want to produce a document. Defence counsel

16 will know of it as C21.

17 Q. Again, Mr. Todorovic, I don't want to dwell too long on this

18 particular document. Can you just quickly have a look at it and acquaint

19 yourself with its general nature? And I just want to take you to certain

20 portions of the document. Who is the apparent author of the document?

21 You'll see that at the end.

22 A. At the beginning, in the heading, it says, "The command of the

23 17th Corps." And it was delivered to the 2nd Military District

24 headquarters.

25 Q. Who is Savo Jankovic?

1 A. General Savo Jankovic was the commander of the Tuzla Corps in

2 April, 1992.

3 Q. Where was the Tuzla Corps based -- sorry, yeah, where was it

4 based, what area? Was it in Tuzla or did it cover a much wider area?

5 A. The command of the Tuzla Corps, as far as I know, had its seat in

6 Tuzla but it covered a wider area, and at that time, the 17th Tactical

7 Group also was part of this corps, that is to say, the municipality of

8 Bosanski Samac area.

9 Q. Thank you. Did the Tuzla Corps later change its name?

10 A. As far as I know, the Tuzla Corps later changed its name to the

11 East Bosnia Corps. It only changed its name.

12 Q. Thank you. If you go to paragraph 4 of the letter, or the report,

13 there is a reference to "TO units disarming paramilitary groups and armed

14 civilians." You touched upon this topic yesterday but, again, what is the

15 meaning of TO units there, as far as you can tell?

16 A. I'm not a military expert, but as far as I know, the Territorial

17 Defence consisted of these four detachments that were part of the 17th

18 Tactical Group.

19 Q. In paragraph 3, it refers to numbers of losses and wounded men

20 that the Serb forces suffered. They refer to two men from Tactical Group

21 17 troops having been lightly wounded. Doing the best you can - I know

22 it's a long time ago - but can you give us any idea if that fits in with

23 your memory of the sort of losses suffered by the 17th Tactical Group in

24 those initial days?

25 A. I knew of wounding of one member of the 17th Tactical Group but

1 it's possible that there might have been another man wounded, but I don't

2 have any concrete information on that.

3 Q. Thank you. This is dated the 19th of April, 1992, two days after

4 events started in Bosanski Samac.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In those two days, presumably, then the unit, the 4th Detachment,

7 did not suffer any significant losses?

8 A. As far as I know, these first few days, the 4th Detachment did not

9 suffer any losses, as far as I know.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: I produce the document, if Your Honours please.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number, please?

13 THE REGISTRAR: It will be P80/ter, Your Honours, for the B/C/S

14 version and P80 for the English version. Thank you.

15 MR. DI FAZIO:

16 Q. Now, Mr. Todorovic, I want to move now to another aspect of events

17 soon after the 16th and 17th, that is, the arrests. First of all, there

18 is little doubt in this case that there were significant numbers of

19 arrests that occurred in Bosanski Samac. That's not in issue. In the

20 days and weeks and months following the 16th and 17th of April, after

21 people had been arrested and imprisoned, who was overall in charge, to

22 whom did the overall responsibility lie, for the health and protection of

23 the detainees?

24 A. The highest responsibility for the protection of the detainees lay

25 with me.

1 Q. And you were a member of the Crisis Staff?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did the Crisis Staff have any collective responsibility for the

4 detainees and the prisoners?

5 A. Well, I don't think I'm competent to decide on this. I think

6 that's something that the Trial Chamber should decide on.

7 Q. Did you inform, either formally or informally, in writing or not

8 in writing, other members of the Crisis Staff of the situation generally

9 in relation to detainees?

10 A. My responsibility as the police chief was to verbally, orally,

11 inform the Crisis Staff about the political and security situation within

12 the municipality of Bosanski Samac from time to time, and this included

13 informing them about prisons and the people that were detained. But I did

14 not inform them about all the details, but generally speaking, yes, and I

15 was doing this verbally.

16 Q. Thank you. I want to know who conducted the arrests in the days

17 and weeks and months following the 16th and 17th of April. Presumably, it

18 was members of the police, but did other groups also participate in the

19 arrests, such as the 4th Detachment and the paramilitaries?

20 A. The first night, and also the first and the second day, the

21 arrests and the detentions of the armed Muslim-Croat formations were done

22 by the members of the 4th Detachment along with the police, but also by

23 members of other detachments, if somewhere on the grounds they apprehended

24 a member of the Croat-Muslim units, and this is because the command of the

25 14th Tactical Group was quite far from Samac. Later, the arrests were

1 done by the members of the public security station.

2 Q. Did numbers in the SUP quickly reach a point where the place was

3 overflowing and accommodation had to be found in the TO building as well?

4 A. Yes, very quickly the rooms became too small, because they were

5 not built for a larger number of people. Then we placed the rest of the

6 detainees into the rooms of the Territorial Defence building, which is

7 across the street.

8 Q. I asked you in the question before whether the paramilitaries also

9 participated in the arrests because, of course, they were going around the

10 town on the night of the 16th and 17th. Can you tell us if they brought

11 in people themselves?

12 A. Yes. They also did that personally.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpretation correction: On page 8, line 24,

14 it should say "17th Tactical Group," not "14th."

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I was about to ask the Prosecution about that,

16 actually. So it should be 17th Tactical Group, yes.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes I'm grateful to the interpreters for pointing

18 that out.

19 Q. And members of the 4th Detachment, can you give us any idea of

20 what sort of numbers of people they brought in on the first two or three

21 days?

22 A. The first two or three days, they brought in about 20 or 30

23 people, for sure, but I cannot recall the exact number because it was

24 very chaotic and everybody who had arms - I'm referring to the Serbs -

25 brought a neighbour in and said, "This person has a sniper or a rifle."

1 And then they would bring them to the station. On the first day, they

2 were cleansing, so to speak, half of the town. When I say "they," I mean

3 the special units members. And the second portion of the town was cleaned

4 up by the 4th Detachment members. When I say "cleaned or cleansed," I'm

5 referring to them going from house to house and searching the apartments

6 and houses for weapons. And then if they would find weapons somewhere,

7 they would bring these weapons to the police station.

8 Q. Did you ever form an impression as to what was required before a

9 member of the paramilitary forces or the 4th Detachment would arrest a

10 person, detain them? Was much required? Did they have to have definite

11 proof of ownership of military weapons or membership of a paramilitary

12 formation? Or were people arrested --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: I think that is loaded, Mr. Di Fazio, and it does

14 contain some important points, I think. Can you just break it down?

15 MR. DI FAZIO:

16 Q. What criteria was being used by members of the paramilitary forces

17 or the 4th Detachment in order to arrest someone? What did someone have

18 to do to be arrested?

19 A. They were -- those were arrested who had weapons, illegal weapons,

20 or explosives with them, or it was known as a fact that they prepared an

21 armed insurgence or that they participated in the procurement of illegal

22 weapons.

23 Q. If a paramilitary went to the home of someone in Bosanski Samac

24 and arrested that person, would he have had -- that particular

25 paramilitary have had any idea of the background of the person, their

1 participation in any sort of paramilitary formation, that sort of thing?

2 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe that this is calling for speculation.

3 If he had any knowledge, did he have? This is another person.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll withdraw the question.

5 MR. LAZAREVIC: I don't know if the witness can answer that.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic, I think, is right, Mr. Di Fazio.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll withdraw it and pose this question.

8 Q. Was there any briefing given to the paramilitaries, members of the

9 4th Detachment or police, as to the names of the people they should

10 arrest?

11 A. Well, some of them got some instructions. We had certain

12 knowledge about these things. We even seized a folder and some documents,

13 and names of people who were armed were in those documents. In one

14 folder, we found a list and military organisation of the Party of

15 Democratic Action, and we could see according to sections, names and phone

16 numbers of people that were members of that section. If a member of the

17 4th Detachment or a policeman or a townsperson were to tell a special

18 units member about -- to arrest certain people because the special units

19 member is not from Samac so they wouldn't know, then the special units

20 member would go and arrest that person, and also if in their apartment

21 they would find a radio station or a rifle or some other kind of

22 ammunition.

23 Q. To your knowledge, were people ever arrested when they weren't in

24 possession of a rifle or ammunition or any sort of military equipment?

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic?

1 MR. PANTELIC: I do apologise, Your Honour. It seems to us that

2 this witness said, in line 21 of page 11, after "ammunition," we think

3 that he said also "explosives." Maybe our learned friend from Prosecution

4 can clarify that. Maybe we are mistaken, I don't know. But it seems to

5 us that he mentioned a word "explosives" also, which might be of

6 importance for this testimony. Maybe it's a matter of translation or

7 maybe they didn't catch the word or something. So...

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think Mr. Di Fazio can clear that with the

9 witness.

10 MR. DI FAZIO:

11 Q. Yes. Did you also mention the word "explosives" in your previous

12 answer?

13 A. Yes, yes, I did. I mentioned the word "explosives."

14 Q. Did the phenomenon of these arrests continue throughout the

15 ensuing months or did the pace of arrests slow down after the first few

16 days?

17 A. After the first few days, the intensity diminished, but arrests

18 did occur if some additional information was gained through investigations

19 of the arrested or if the police found additional written documents or

20 acquired new insight in the cases.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for a moment?

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

23 [Prosecution counsel confer]

24 MR. DI FAZIO:

25 Q. Mr. Todorovic, did you provide a series of interviews to officers

1 of the OTP in early last year, early year 2001?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were you accompanied on that occasion by your lawyer,

4 Mr. Dejan Brasic?

5 A. Yes. On a few occasions, Mr. Brasic was there.

6 Q. And in particular, were you interviewed on the 18th of January,

7 2001?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I'd like to put to you something that you said, and ask you to

10 comment upon it. You were being asked questions by a woman called Nancy

11 Paterson, who was the then-Prosecutor in this case. And she asked you

12 this question, and you provided this answer. Question: And who issued

13 the orders to go around and arrest these people?"

14 MR. PANTELIC: I do apologise again, Your Honour. Could

15 Mr. Di Fazio just give us a short reference, which page, so that we can

16 follow? It's a bundle of documents.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, sorry.

18 MR. PANTELIC: It's more than 2.000 pages. Thank you in advance.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: I do apologise to my learned friends. I should

20 have mentioned that. It's the 18th of January - I'm looking at the

21 English version - and it's page 30.

22 Q. Question from Nancy Paterson: "And who issued the orders to go

23 around and arrest these people? Did you order it? Did the Crisis Staff

24 order it?" You answered: "In those first days, arrests happened more or

25 less spontaneously. Men who were in the field brought in people in whose

1 apartments they found radio transmitters or weapons or people who they

2 suspected to be snipers. There was no firm criteria or clear order in

3 that respect."

4 When you said there was no firm criteria, what did you mean?

5 A. Well, I meant that there was no precise criteria, nor was there a

6 special list of people who had to be arrested. There was no specific list

7 of persons drafted before the 17th, but on the basis of the investigations

8 that we carried out and the documentation, the documents we also got our

9 hands on concerning the Croatian and the Muslim elements in the

10 municipality of Samac.

11 Q. Thank you. In the days and weeks following the 17th of April, did

12 the Crisis Staff ever participate in the decision to arrest people or

13 classes of people?

14 A. The Crisis Staff de facto supported such an activity but I don't

15 remember any strict written instruction but the position was that the

16 Croats and Muslims with arms, who were preparing armed insurgences were to

17 be questioned, interrogated and that an investigation was to be carried

18 out against them.

19 Q. What I mean -- sorry, what I need to know is, when you say that

20 Croats and Muslims with arms who were preparing armed insurgencies were to

21 be questioned, interrogated and investigated, did the Crisis Staff

22 actually participate in that decision, to question, interrogate, arrest

23 them and so on?

24 A. Well, the Crisis Staff in fact approved this undertaking, this

25 action, which was underway from the first day.

1 Q. Thank you. I just want to refer to another interview you gave.

2 Again, it was in fact at the very end of the year 2000. It was, in fact,

3 your first interview, and again, you were accompanied by your lawyer, and

4 on this particular occasion, you were being asked questions by an

5 investigator.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: And the date of the interview, if Your Honours

7 please, is the 6th of November, and for the benefit of my learned friends,

8 I'm referring to the English transcript, page 55 and 56.

9 Q. I just want to put a series of questions and answers and see if

10 you agree with the content of what you said. Mr. Selsky, who was the

11 interviewer asked you, "Were civilians detained? Civilians other than

12 opposition soldiers, were civilians detained?" You answered, "There were

13 such cases, yes." Question: "Where did you receive your orders on who to

14 detain and for how long?" And you answered, "Orders came from the Crisis

15 Staff and also from investigators, investigators who worked in the

16 criminal investigation service. When they would come across some

17 information about someone, somebody's involvement in armed insurgence,

18 They would act on them."

19 That's what you told the investigators. Do you agree with that

20 position?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. Who had the power to release detained persons?

23 A. Well, as far as the bigger groups were concerned, the right to

24 release them, that was in the hands of the Crisis Staff.

25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Di Fazio, do you think we could find out what

1 Mr. Todorovic means by "bigger groups," which is on line 18?

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

3 Q. You heard Her Honour's question. You referred to bigger groups.

4 Are you there referring to classes of people, types of people, or

5 something else? Can you tell us what you meant when you said "bigger

6 groups"?

7 A. I -- when saying, speaking of a bigger group of detainees, I'm

8 thinking of detainees who, from detention, went into the exchange.

9 Q. All right. Well, I'll see if I can get some further details about

10 that from you. Can you recall any specific examples of when the Crisis

11 Staff or Crisis Staff members made a decision as to whether or not someone

12 should be kept in custody or released?

13 A. I don't remember individual decisions concerning a single person,

14 but I remember that, at the beginning, there was the general position

15 that, in order to save Serbs who were detained in Odzak, that an agreement

16 was given that a group of detained Croats and Muslims could be exchanged

17 for the detained Serbs in Odzak.

18 Q. I'll get to that issue of exchanges later. Perhaps I'll approach

19 it this way. Do you know a gentleman named Sulejman Tihic?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. Was he -- he was arrested, I think, fairly early on after the 17th

22 of April?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were you actively looking for him early on, that is around the

25 17th of April, you and the police force, searching for him?

1 A. Yes. On the first day, the members of the police and the others

2 were looking for him, but he was not to be found at his address. We were

3 looking for him because he was the main person involved in procuring -- in

4 illegal procurements of weapons for the SDA party.

5 Q. Did you ever receive any information as to his whereabouts?

6 A. Yes. Yes, I did receive some information, yes.

7 Q. Who provided you with that information?

8 A. As far as I remember, this information was passed on to me by

9 Mr. Blagoje Simic because, prior to that, he talked to him or to

10 Mr. Pisarevic over the phone, but he told me that he was to be found in

11 Pisarevic's apartment, that Mr. Pisarevic was hiding him in his own

12 apartment.

13 Q. And did you receive instructions to arrest him?

14 A. Well, I didn't receive - how to put it - a precise instruction,

15 "Go and arrest him," but I did receive the information, "You're looking

16 for him throughout the town but he is to be found in Mr. Pisarevic's

17 apartment."

18 Q. And can you remember when you received that information from

19 Mr. Blagoje Simic? Was it on the 17th or the 18th? Or if you can't

20 remember, say so.

21 A. Was it the 17th or the 17th or 18th, but it -- at the latest, on

22 the 19th. That information was received on one of these days.

23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. I just want to put another passage to

24 you again from the interviews that were conducted with you and see what

25 you say about it. This is an interview that was conducted with you on the

1 18th of January, 2001. Again, the usual people were there, Nancy

2 Paterson, a number of investigators, and you were talking -- in fact, you

3 were being questioned about a man who I'll come to later, but his name was

4 Jozo Puskaric, Father Jozo Puskaric. And Nancy Paterson asked you this,

5 and this was your reply, series of questions that I will put -- questions

6 and answers that I will put to you.

7 Sorry, Defence counsel should know it's page 1551 of that

8 interview. Nancy Paterson: "So it sounds that he was being detained

9 because he was valuable for exchange, not because he was found with

10 weapons or was conspiring against the government or anything like that."

11 And you answered, "To be honest, I don't know why he was arrested or who

12 brought him in but I know, all I know, that he was at the police station,

13 and that they told me at the Crisis Staff that we must not release him

14 because, in exchange for him, we can get either a large number of Serbs or

15 an officer from the Army of Republika Srpska, if any are captured in

16 Croatia, because the whole time, there was this sword of Damocles hanging

17 over us, the problem of about 3.000 Serbs captured in Odzak. That is the

18 information I received from Zaric and others who maintained communication

19 with that side, and that was a hard problem."

20 Then Nancy Paterson asked you this question, and you gave this

21 answer, and this is what I'm really interested in: "That raises the

22 question: How much power and authority did you have as a police chief to

23 release people who were being detained? Could you make that decision on

24 your own or did you have to get permission from the Crisis Staff?"

25 Answer: "I had to seek approval from the Crisis Staff."

1 You maintain that position?

2 A. Yes, I do. And when bigger groups were involved or more important

3 people like this person Puskaric, I could not pass -- make the decision

4 myself, but that doesn't mean that on a few occasions which involved less

5 important persons, which I released and I later had problems with staff

6 and the army of the Republika Srpska.

7 Q. Fine. So in the case of the more important people, they would be

8 involved in the decision making. In the case of less important

9 personages, you would have the discretion to operate by yourself; is that

10 right?

11 A. Yes. On a few occasions, for these less important people, on my

12 own initiative, I made such a gesture.

13 Q. Thank you. And you mentioned earlier, in an answer that you just

14 gave, that you occasionally had problems with the Crisis Staff and with

15 the army over releasing people. What sort of problems did you experience?

16 A. As far as I remember, I had problems with members of the army, not

17 the Crisis Staff, but on two or three occasions, with the army. And if

18 need be, I can also explain these two or three cases.

19 Q. No, that won't be necessary. That won't be necessary,

20 Mr. Todorovic. I want to ask you some questions about Mr. Simo Zaric now,

21 and perhaps before I do, I should produce this document to you.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: For the benefit of Defence colleagues, they will

23 know of this document as document C29.

24 Q. Just have a read of the document, please.

25 All right. Have you acquainted yourself? First of all,

1 signature, any idea whose signature it is?

2 A. Well, it looks like the signature of Mr. Simic.

3 Q. Dr. Blagoje Simic?

4 A. Yes, yes, Blagoje Simic.

5 Q. Thank you. What is the national security service that's referred

6 to in the beginning of the document?

7 A. Well, it would be in fact the secret police or the national

8 security, national security [As interpreted]. These were the terms which

9 were being used in the Republika Srpska and in Bosnia and Herzegovina at

10 the time.

11 Q. What was envisaged as the role of chief of National Security

12 Service by the Crisis Staff? What did they expect?

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lazarevic?

14 MR. LAZAREVIC: Just to intervene for the transcript, when

15 mentioning what were the terms used for this body, he said "secret

16 police," then he said "state security" and "national security." And it

17 was here in the transcript, it's page 19, row 23, it says twice "national

18 security, national security." Actually, he said "state security."

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Di Fazio, you can clear that.

20 MR. DI FAZIO:

21 Q. Mr. Todorovic, just a minor problem with the transcript. When I

22 asked you to describe national security service, you said, "It's the

23 secret police, state security and national security." Is that the way you

24 described it?

25 A. Yes. I said these were the three terms which were used, being

1 used for the same service. Somebody called this the service of national

2 security, of state security, or the secret police. However, that was one

3 service, but these three terms were used in the public.

4 Q. Thanks. Now, what did the Crisis Staff have in mind would be the

5 areas to be covered, the zone of responsibility, for this position? What

6 was his brief, so to speak?

7 A. Let me say I don't know what the Crisis Staff planned or what they

8 were thinking about when they passed this decision. However, the issue of

9 national security that are -- these are secret activities, and they are

10 older than issues and activities of public security. At least that was --

11 that's the practice in Republika Srpska and in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12 Q. I'm not quite sure I follow you. What do you mean that national

13 security, secret activities, are older than issues of public security? I

14 don't quite follow you. Do you mean they are more important or something

15 like that?

16 A. I didn't say that -- I said that it had greater competences and

17 that it is superior to the public security.

18 Q. Oh, I see. All right. The document describes in paragraph 1

19 Mr. Simo Zaric as being an economist. How does that description sit with

20 you, as an economist? Did you ever know him to be an economist?

21 A. I didn't work with him on economic matters and I didn't see his

22 degree, but I did hear that in his mature age that he acquired a degree

23 from the faculty in Brcko, and I also know that he also worked for quite

24 some time in the state security service.

25 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 2 says that his duties shall be carried out

1 in accordance with the guidelines of the Crisis Staff. Did you ever see

2 any such guidelines or are you aware of any such guidelines pertaining to

3 the chief of national security?

4 A. Well, I personally did not see his -- his reports, but -- and I

5 wasn't personally there, whether he was giving them or not, whether he was

6 receiving instructions in different meetings or submitting reports in

7 these meetings, I don't know because I wasn't there. Because this was,

8 after all, a secret police and I was a chief of the public security

9 station.

10 Q. Sure. Okay. You may not have been present. Did you ever hear

11 that he provided reports or spoke to the Crisis Staff about his

12 activities?

13 A. Well, I heard that he had discussions and that he tried to

14 organise this service of national security again, and this is what he was

15 working on for a while.

16 Q. How did you learn of the -- his appointment?

17 A. I heard about his appointment in my office when Mr. Zaric brought

18 this decision and he said to me, "From today on, I am the chief for

19 national security." And I asked him, "Who appointed you?" And he said,

20 "I was appointed by the Crisis Staff," and then he showed me this

21 document. And I asked him, "What do you mean, the Crisis Staff? I'm also

22 a member of the Crisis Staff." And he said, "You have nothing to worry

23 about. As you can see, there is a stamp and a signature of the president

24 of the Crisis Staff here, and from now on, I am the national security

25 chief."

1 Q. And did you speak to anyone regarding that appointment, after he

2 came and told you this?

3 A. As far as I can remember, I think I talked to Mr. Blagoje Simic

4 and he also said that this document was an original, and that he was

5 indeed appointed to this position and that he would be doing the job that

6 goes with it.

7 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 3 says that, "The chief of national security

8 shall be fully accountable to the Crisis Staff." Do you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you know what that means? If you don't know, say so, but have

11 you got any idea what that might mean?

12 A. Well, I don't think I can say anything particular about this, but

13 from this article, we can see that he is fully accountable to the Crisis

14 Staff, to which he has to submit reports about his work.

15 Q. Yes, thank you, Mr. Todorovic. Before I move on to my next

16 question, I'd like you to note that the date of the document is the 29th

17 of April, 1992. I'm going to ask you some questions about the period of

18 time preceding that.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: And if Your Honours please, I'd like to now produce

20 that document into evidence.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number, please?

22 THE REGISTRAR: It will be P81 ter for the B/C/S and P81, Your

23 Honours.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours, could I

25 ask a short question?

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please go ahead.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I have a short break? I would

3 like to use the lavatories, just for a couple of minutes, please.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We shall rise for ten minutes.

5 --- Break taken at 10.06 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 10.14 a.m.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We continue with the Prosecution.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, thank you, Your Honours.

9 Q. Now, Mr. Todorovic, I want to ask you about the period of time

10 preceding the appointment of Mr. Zaric as chief of national security. My

11 first question is, did he participate in any way in the arrests? I don't

12 necessarily mean going out and laying hands on people but in any way at

13 all in the arrests that started after the 17th.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In what way did he participate?

16 A. Mr. Zaric, during the first days or even maybe the first two

17 months, worked in my police station as a criminal investigator.

18 Q. That's in the SUP building facing the TO building?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did he have an office there?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did he attend on a daily basis or on a more infrequent basis? Can

23 you give us any idea?

24 A. He came very often. He didn't spend the whole -- his whole day

25 there in the station, but he would come very often and he was -- he would

1 conduct his investigation, take statements, and based on his knowledge

2 from before April 17th and also during the interrogation, he would give

3 suggestions to the other criminal investigators and police officers that

4 certain people be taken into custody and that investigations be conducted

5 about them.

6 Q. Did he ever participate in questioning suspects?

7 A. Yes, yes, he did.

8 Q. Again, can you give us an idea of the frequency of that? Was that

9 an infrequent occurrence or was it a fairly regular thing?

10 A. The first days, it happened quite frequently.

11 Q. His office, was it on the first or second floor? Perhaps I should

12 clarify that. We have a slightly elevated floor, I believe, in the SUP.

13 You go up some stairs and that's what I'll call the first floor. And then

14 there is a second floor at least. Now which floor was his office on?

15 A. On the second floor, there was more than one office that the

16 criminal investigators used, and Mr. Zaric worked in one of these offices

17 as well.

18 Q. And I think --

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Di Fazio, before you proceed with your line of

20 questioning, I would like you to re-examine your question on page 24, line

21 29, when you asked the witness: "Did he ever participate in questioning

22 suspects?" And the witness answered: "Yes, yes, he did." What do you

23 mean by "suspects"?

24 MR. DI FAZIO: I see. I'll clarify that, Your Honour.

25 Q. You've told us that Mr. Zaric did participate in questioning

1 suspects. Were these people who had been arrested by your police or 4th

2 Detachment members?

3 A. Well, as far as I know, he participated in questioning those that

4 were taken into custody, those that were in the police station, and those

5 people might have been taken to the police either by 4th Detachment

6 members or by police members, police officers, but regardless of that, we

7 are talking about the Muslims and Croats that were already located in the

8 police station and he would question them and take their statements.

9 Q. Yes. While we are still on this topic, I think your evidence is

10 that, quickly, this wasn't enough room in the SUP building for the

11 prisoners and so a number were moved over to the TO building. Can you

12 recall if he ever questioned any prisoners who were brought over from the

13 TO for questioning? To put the matter at its simplest, did he ever

14 question people who were taken out of custody from the TO building and/or

15 the cells in the SUP building and question them?

16 A. I can't remember any specific details at this moment, but all the

17 men that were taken into custody and were kept, either in the SUP building

18 or the TO building, or later in the primary school building. Then

19 policemen would take them to the offices of the criminal investigation

20 service, where the criminal investigators were, and this is where

21 Mr. Zaric worked for a while, and then their statements would be taken.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Does that satisfy Your Honour's query?

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, thank you.

24 MR. DI FAZIO:

25 Q. Now I wanted to ask you about the positioning of Mr. Zaric's

1 office. It was on the second floor, you say. Was it facing the TO

2 building or facing the river, the Sava?

3 A. Those three offices that were used by the criminal investigators

4 and Mr. Zaric had windows facing the TO building.

5 Q. Did he have a clear view of the TO building from his office?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. To be more specific, did he have a clear view of the yard of the

8 TO building?

9 A. Yes. You had a clear view of the TO yard.

10 Q. Mr. Todorovic, I'm going to ask you in more detail about the issue

11 of exchanges at a later point in time, but can you just briefly tell us,

12 first of all, if exchange lists, lists of prisoners to be exchanged, were

13 created? First of all, you can just tell us "yes" or "no."

14 A. Yes, lists were created, lists of prisoners who were going to be

15 exchanged.

16 Q. Did Mr. Zaric, to your knowledge, ever participate in the creation

17 of such lists?

18 A. As far as I know, he participated in creating the first two or

19 three lists. That's what I saw. But it might be possible that he also

20 participated in the creation of others. However, I did not see that, but

21 I do know that he participated in the creation of the first two or three

22 lists.

23 Q. Have you got any idea if those lists in which you know he did

24 participate in creating included any of the prisoners who were in the TO

25 building and in the SUP building?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. In the period of time leading up to his appointment as

3 chief of national security, did he have a particular rank or -- yes, a

4 particular rank, in the -- in his work?

5 A. You mean a rank in the police?

6 Q. Yes. When he was working in his office, leading up to the 29th of

7 April, before the 29th of April, what was his position? What would you

8 describe it, an investigator or chief of investigator? What precisely was

9 his rank?

10 A. We didn't have ranks in the police at the time, only soldiers.

11 The military had ranks. But he was an investigator, a criminal

12 investigator. The first days, he wanted to become the chief of the

13 criminal investigation service. That's how he behaved. But I told him

14 orally, "You can work as an investigator in the criminal investigation

15 service but the chief of the criminal investigation service is Milos

16 Savic, attorney at law, who even before the war worked in this police

17 station as a criminal investigator."

18 Q. You say that he wanted in the first days to be chief of the

19 criminal investigation services. I'd just like you to expand on that a

20 bit. How do you know that he wanted to be that? Did you have any

21 discussions with him? Was the issue raised between you both?

22 A. Yes. The first few days, he behaved as if he was the chief of the

23 criminal investigation service, but then I told him that Milos Savic was

24 responsible for that service, that he was the chief of that service, and I

25 told him, "You, however, can work as a criminal investigator within this

1 criminal investigations service where -- whose chief is Milos Savic." And

2 I told him this orally. There was no document written about it or

3 anything, or there was no document about the organisation or

4 reorganisation of this service. And then he just continued working there.

5 Q. Was this issue a source of friction between you?

6 A. Well, there might have been some friction. He had a very high

7 opinion about himself and his police work, and that's how he behaved.

8 Q. Thank you. I'd like to move just briefly to more specific issues.

9 Do you know a man named -- nicknamed "Coner"?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: I have to interrupt you here. When you asked about

13 whether or not there might have been -- there was some friction between

14 the witness and Mr. Accused Simo Zaric, his answer was, "Well, there might

15 have been some friction." This is an important point, I think. I would

16 like to have a specific answer from the witness whether there was friction

17 between the two of them or there wasn't any friction.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll -- we'll clarify that and I also think that

19 there might be evidence later in his testimony regarding this general

20 issue. But I'll ask Mr. Todorovic again.

21 Q. Her Honour wants to know with some more -- some greater accuracy,

22 did the issue of Mr. Zaric's appointment or lack of appointment as chief

23 of the investigators actually lead to words between you, to coldness

24 between you, lack of cooperation, or hostility between you? Can you try

25 and be a bit more specific?

1 A. Well, I didn't notice any hostility. He was displeased but only a

2 little, and he showed his displeasure but not much, and he just continued

3 working as he pleased. He worked in the police station. He would also go

4 to the brigade, and he also did a lot of things by himself. But then

5 later he would inform me of some of his actions and of some of his actions

6 he would not inform me, but I can't really say that there was any open

7 hostility between us.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

10 MR. DI FAZIO:

11 Q. Now, the man Coner, do you know his full name?

12 A. I do not know his name and surname. I knew the person just as

13 Coner.

14 Q. A man of Muslim ethnicity, I believe?

15 A. Yes, a Muslim, and on the basis of Zaric's information submitted

16 to me, he was in the -- within the narrower group of the SDS [as

17 interpreted] which was working on the procurement of weapons.

18 Q. Thank you. Was he ever arrested by the police?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you play a part in his arrest? By that I don't necessarily

21 mean --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic?

23 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honours, just an intervention to the

24 transcript. His answer was, in page 30, line -- between line 3 and 5 -

25 it's probably error in typing - it's not "SDS." The witness said SDA

1 party. And it was not a narrower group, it was the inner circle of the

2 SDA party. That's what he said. But my friend can clarify that with the

3 witness, of course.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, before we break, Mr. Di Fazio, can you just

5 clarify that so we have a correct record on the transcript.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Sure.

7 Q. This man Coner, I don't think you meant to say that he was in the

8 SDS. I think you meant SDA, did you not? And secondly, did you say that

9 he was in the inner circle, the inner circle of the SDA?

10 A. Yes. I said that he belonged to the SDA party and that he was in

11 the -- in this inner circle of the leadership of the SDA, and that he

12 participated in the arming of Muslims and Croats.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We shall take our break now and resume our

14 proceedings at 11.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the Prosecution is continuing.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

19 Q. Mr. Todorovic, just before the break, I was asking you about the

20 man Coner, and I was about to ask you -- I wanted to ask you if you played

21 a part in his arrest. I don't necessarily mean physically going out and

22 getting him but instructing people to do so, that sort of thing.

23 A. Well, I received the information from Mr. Zaric that Mr. Coner had

24 an important role in the arming, and on the basis of this information, and

25 his insistence, the police then arrested, apprehended, Mr. Coner.

1 Q. Fine. Did he actually speak to you about picking up -- sorry,

2 arresting Mr. Coner? Sorry, the man Coner?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And following that, were instructions given to police to go out

5 and arrest him?

6 A. Yes. After that, the police arrested Coner.

7 Q. So far you've described arrests being conducted by the 4th

8 Detachment, your police officers, and also paramilitaries. Did Nikolic

9 ever send any prisoners to you?

10 A. Yes. It happened on a few occasions. I remember that on a bus,

11 they brought in some 30, 40 people, and I was told that they were sent by

12 Commander Nikolic and to place them and house them in the TO building,

13 which also then happened.

14 Q. Were these 30 or 40 people Muslims and Croats?

15 A. Yes, Muslims and Croats.

16 Q. Thanks. Do you know what area they were from? Were they from the

17 town of Bosanski Samac or were they people who had been picked up in the

18 outlying areas of the municipality or, indeed, anywhere else?

19 A. On the basis of my information, they were from the areas of --

20 arrested in the area of Orasje, and some of them were born and lived in

21 the municipality of Teslic, but at the time, they were in this first area.

22 Q. Did Nikolic supply you or did anyone else supply you with any

23 information, specifics, specific details, regarding what these people had

24 done, why they'd been arrested?

25 A. As I recall, I didn't -- I did not receive any detailed

1 information about their criminal activity, just I was told that

2 Commander Nikolic called -- arrested them and that I should hold them in

3 detention.

4 Q. And presumably, they were duly held in detention. Do you know

5 where? Was it the TO, the SUP, or high school gym, primary school gym?

6 Where? Where did you put them?

7 A. As I remember, one part of them were put in the building of TO,

8 and others in the elementary school, and as far as I remember, this was

9 carried out by the commander of the police station and his assistants.

10 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Di Fazio, I wonder whether Mr. Todorovic

11 could clarify -- sorry, okay. It's line 8, page 32. The end of his

12 answer, Mr. Todorovic says, "They were in this first area." I'd like to

13 know exactly what is meant by that, because in your question, you had

14 mentioned the town, were they picked up in the town of Bosanski Samac or

15 were they picked up in outlying areas of municipality. So this first

16 area, is it the town? So if you could clarify, please.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, thank you.

18 Q. Mr. Todorovic, one of my earlier questions was about the bus load

19 of people, and I asked you if they were picked up in Bosanski Samac or in

20 the outlying areas of the municipality. You went on to explain that they

21 came from the municipality of Teslic and some from Orasje, and you then

22 said something that's not very clear. You said, "But at the time they

23 were in this first area." I don't quite follow that. Is the first area

24 something different from Orasje or Teslic, or were you just talking about

25 Orasje?

1 A. I believe it a matter of translation or I didn't express myself

2 properly. As far as I know, they were arrested on the Serbian -- Serb

3 territory, the outlying areas of Samac. The village where they were

4 arrested belonged to the Serb Municipality of Orasje, which is a part of

5 the territory of Samac, and I heard that some were born and earlier lived

6 in Teslic, but at that moment in time, they happened to be there where

7 they were arrested.

8 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

9 MR. DI FAZIO:

10 Q. The Crisis Staff must have had a headquarters somewhere. Where

11 did it set up its headquarters, initially?

12 A. Initially, the Crisis Staff moved from two or three locations.

13 First, it had its headquarters in the agricultural industry, then in the

14 offices of the district heating plant, and then in the municipality

15 building, which is in the centre of the town.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Can Your Honours just bear with me for a moment,

17 please?

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

19 [Prosecution counsel confer]

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Can the witness be shown the

21 photographs, please? 14A, I think is the unmarked bundle.

22 THE REGISTRAR: I'm awfully sorry, Mr. Di Fazio, which exactly,

23 the number of the photograph or all of them?

24 MR. DI FAZIO: No, no. Just one particular photograph, number 20.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.

1 MR. DI FAZIO:

2 Q. Do you recognise that building?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You said that the Crisis Staff had its headquarters in the

5 agricultural industry. Is that the building you're talking about?

6 A. If I recall correctly, this is not the building. It's the

7 building in the same yard, and that that building is some ten metres

8 further south, but in this same yard.

9 Q. Oh, I see. Okay. All right. Do you know what was in this

10 building at the time that's depicted?

11 A. In this building on the photo?

12 Q. Yes, the green one with the pigeons on top.

13 A. As I recall, in the first few days, the commander of the tank

14 battalion, or whatever it was called, that formation, they stayed -- they

15 were quartered here with the soldiers.

16 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. I've finished, Mr. Usher.

17 In any event, Mr. Todorovic, the Crisis Staff headquarters was

18 somewhere near that building, not -- very close by?

19 A. In the same courtyard, but only ten metres to the left of the gate

20 entrance of this agri-business.

21 Q. Where did it shift after that, the headquarters of the Crisis

22 Staff?

23 A. After that, it moved to the business premises of the Uniglas

24 factory.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, it's not an objection, it's just a

1 suggestion to my learned friend. Maybe we could have a time frame, a

2 period, so that we could follow these details.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm grateful to Mr. Pantelic, and I intend to

4 establish that.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

6 MR. DI FAZIO:

7 Q. How long were you in the first -- sorry, how long was the Crisis

8 Staff in the first location, the one near the agricultural industry plant?

9 A. As I recall, maybe the first five to seven days. I don't believe

10 it was more than that.

11 Q. Then you -- the Crisis Staff moved to Uniglas?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Again, how long was the Crisis Staff housed at the Uniglas

14 factory?

15 A. Maybe 20 days or a month, but I'm not a hundred per cent sure.

16 Q. And where precisely in the Uniglas factory did it have its

17 offices?

18 A. In the office administration premises, where the director, the

19 administration and the clerks had their offices.

20 Q. Was there a canteen in that building?

21 A. Not in that building, but in the yard of that factory, there was a

22 canteen.

23 Q. For a period of time that the Crisis Staff was located in this

24 building, were prisoners who were housed in the TO and the SUP and so on

25 taken there for meals?

1 A. On the first few days, yes.

2 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Di Fazio, I think maybe we should clarify

3 Mr. Todorovic's answer on line 14: "On the first few days, yes." Does it

4 mean on the first few days, let's say the 17th to the 19th of April, when

5 the Crisis Staff was located in the -- near the agricultural building, or

6 does the answer mean on the first few days when the Crisis Staff had moved

7 into their second location, this factory with the canteen in the yard?

8 MR. DI FAZIO: I understood him to be saying the latter but I'll

9 clarify it.

10 JUDGE WILLIAMS: If you could.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, Your Honour.

12 Q. Just to we are absolutely certain, when you say the prisoners were

13 taken for meals, are you referring to the period of time that the

14 Crisis Staff was located in the Uniglas factory?

15 A. I believe for a few days, yes.

16 Q. I'm not asking for the period of time. All I want to know is

17 this: The canteen that you've mentioned, was that at the Uniglas factory?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And that's where the prisoners were taken for a short period of

20 time to get their meals?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Mr. Todorovic, it's not in dispute in this case that a number of

23 locations sprang up around Bosanski Samac where prisoners were kept: The

24 SUP, then the TO, and later the high school gym, and I believe the primary

25 school gym for a period of time. Who was responsible for finding these

1 locations to house these prisoners?

2 A. Well, for determining the locations, this was entrusted to me, the

3 commander, the deputy commander of the police, and also our other aides.

4 Q. Did you keep other Crisis Staff members acquainted -- up to date,

5 I should say, with the fact that more locations were needed and created

6 for keeping the prisoners?

7 A. Yes. They were informed, the members of the Crisis Staff were

8 informed.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the Prosecution, Mr. Di Fazio. The answer has

10 been given.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry, I should have told the Chamber I was

12 just looking at a matter. I apologise for that.

13 Q. Again, Mr. Todorovic, it's just a -- another portion of your

14 interview that you gave on the 18th of January. I'll quickly go -- put

15 something to you. Again, Nancy Paterson was asking you questions.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: For the benefit of my learned friends, it's at the

17 top of page 34 of the English transcript.

18 Q. Question by Nancy Paterson: "Again, you haven't really answered

19 my question about the establishment of the camps. Who made these

20 decisions to detain the men and put them in these particular locations?"

21 Answer: "On the first nights, the first days, it was Nikolic who decided

22 that. As the number of detainees rose, their number became too great to

23 be accommodated in the existing premises and the Crisis Staff simply

24 approved the process which was going on already."

25 Do you agree with that?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do I take it from that answer that the Crisis Staff was kept

3 abreast of developments regarding the creation of new prison

4 establishments?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And they approved the continued process of creating new prisons as

7 their swelling numbers increased?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. One of the prisoners was a man named Dikan, who was

10 killed by Lugar. That's not in dispute. You agree with that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. He was, I think, in the TO building when he was killed, was he

13 not?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was his death made known to the Crisis Staff?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Were there -- was his death discussed, the consequences and so on,

18 was it discussed by the Crisis Staff?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Lugar was a paramilitary?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And I assume --

23 A. Paramilitary, but at the time, he was within the framework of the

24 17th Tactical Group.

25 Q. That's right. He was part of that initial group of 50 men which

1 later became larger and was called the Special Battalion, I think; is that

2 the situation?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Right. The paramilitaries had access to the men in the TO

5 building and the SUP -- or the TO building in particular?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did the Crisis Staff know that the paramilitaries had access to

8 the prisoners from time to time?

9 A. Yes. They knew that the paramilitaries would come in

10 occasionally, although I issued an order for the police to prevent their

11 entering the building, but this -- it was difficult to prevent it

12 particularly if they had -- if they drank.

13 Q. Thank you. All I want to know, though, is the Crisis Staff knew

14 the paramilitaries were gaining access to the prisoners. Is that correct

15 or not?

16 A. Possibly, the translation is somewhat different. The Crisis Staff

17 knew that occasionally, without any permission and irrespective of my ban,

18 that they entered these premises.

19 Q. Thank you. As part of your plea of guilty, you admitted

20 causing -- killing a man called Antesa. I'm not interested in the details

21 of that, how that came about. I'm, in fact, interested in the aftermath

22 of that. Was the fact of the killing made known to the Crisis Staff?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was it discussed amongst members of the Crisis Staff?

25 A. Yes, amongst some members of the Crisis Staff members, it was

1 discussed.

2 Q. Did that include Dr. Blagoje Simic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Another event that concerned prisoners was the murder of a large

5 number of people in Crkvina by Lugar.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Would you agree that that occurred in early May of 1992?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. If I suggested to you the 6th and 7th of May, does that sound

10 right to you?

11 A. I don't know precisely, but it must -- it was somewhere around the

12 5th, 6th or 7th of May.

13 Q. These three episodes I've just asked you about, can you remember

14 the sequence, Dikan, Antesa, and Crkvina? Can you remember in what

15 sequence they occurred?

16 A. As I recall, the first unfortunate event concerned Dikan, then the

17 most serious one in Crkvina, and somewhere in June or July, this tragic

18 event concerning Antesa.

19 Q. All right.

20 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Di Fazio, I believe you omitted to ask the

21 witness concerning the Crkvina killing, whether the Crisis Staff was

22 informed. You did that for the first two events.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm going to get into that in full detail, Your

24 Honour. I'm not leaving that for one moment.

25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: All right. Thank you.

1 MR. DI FAZIO:

2 Q. The fact of the killings at Crkvina, was it a matter of common

3 knowledge in the town of Bosanski Samac?

4 A. Yes, it was.

5 Q. When did you first hear that it had occurred, and who informed

6 you?

7 A. It happened during the night, and the next day, I heard it for the

8 first time from the commander of the police station, Savo Cancarevic. He

9 informed me about this unfortunate event and he told me that they removed

10 all the evidence, and they've taken care of it. He told -- I told

11 him, "Why did they do that, as we were supposed to carry on an on-site

12 inspection?" He said that Lugar was involved, who is the army and of the

13 17th Tactical Group, and that it was Lugar himself who insisted and

14 ordered that the traces of this event be removed during the night.

15 Q. Thanks. And was -- were the bodies buried, concealed, somewhere?

16 A. Mr. Cancarevic informed me that, on Lugar's orders, he found some

17 villagers and that they took the bodies away, that they washed off the

18 blood, but he did not take me -- tell me where these bodies were buried.

19 Q. Okay. Was -- were you informed about a tractor being used from

20 the Usce, I think it's Usce Bosne company, to dig a grave and place the

21 bodies in there?

22 A. Later, after a considerable amount of time, I found out in

23 informal conversations that this piece of equipment was used from this

24 company for digging out the hole where these unfortunate men were buried.

25 Q. Just answer my next question with a "yes" or a "no." Have you

1 recently provided and assisted officers of the OTP in attempting to locate

2 the bodies?

3 A. Mr. Di Fazio, you're asking me a difficult question. This is an

4 open session, and these things are very serious. There have already been

5 some threats against me, but I will -- but I will answer nevertheless. If

6 there is a possibility to have a closed session for a moment?

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Is it relevant?

8 MR. DI FAZIO: It's not particularly relevant. I'd hoped to deal

9 with it very briefly, if Your Honours please. I think it's a matter of

10 some importance to the witness, but from the Prosecution's point of view,

11 it's not particularly relevant to the matters in the indictment. May I

12 leave the decision on this with the Chamber?

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We can go into private session.

15 [Private session]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

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2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [Open session]

23 MR. DI FAZIO:

24 Q. Now, following the report to you by Savo Cancarevic, did you

25 inform the Crisis Staff of what had happened in Crkvina?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So they knew that Lugar was the man responsible?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And was an investigation ever conducted?

5 A. I and the members of my police station did not conduct an

6 investigation, and I don't know about others.

7 Q. Thank you. All right. Now, I want to leave this topic and move

8 on to another topic, and that is the issue of the exchanges. Perhaps we

9 will go from the specific to the general. First of all, may I ask you

10 about Mr. Izet Izetbegovic? You've already said that you know him, and

11 there is no dispute that he was amongst one of the first people to be

12 arrested, nor is there any dispute that he was exchanged, but it's the

13 circumstances that I want to ask you about. First of all, can you recall

14 how it came about that the process of his exchange started?

15 A. As far as I can remember, first interview was conducted in my

16 office with a close relative of Izet Izetbegovic, Alija Izetbegovic, who

17 at that time was the President of that part of Bosnia.

18 Q. Who suggested that Mr. Izetbegovic be exchanged?

19 A. First, Mr. Zaric suggested that Izet Izetbegovic invite to call

20 Alija Izetbegovic on the phone from my office, and to ask from

21 Mr. Alija Izetbegovic to release three and-a-half or 4.000 Serbs who had

22 already been arrested in the municipality of Odzak. This municipality was

23 controlled by Croatian and Muslim forces.

24 Q. Did anyone else speak to you about using him in an exchange? Was

25 it just Mr. Zaric or did someone else speak to you?

1 A. Mr. Zaric talked not about the exchange but that Izet intervene or

2 talk to his relative, Alija, so the Serbs that were detained be released.

3 After some time, I was called from Belgrade and they said that they saw on

4 their TV that Izet Izetbegovic was in the police station and that they --

5 and they were asking whether we wanted to give him to them, to send them

6 to Belgrade, so that they could exchange him from Belgrade for 200 or 300

7 cadets, that is to say students, that were in the military academy in

8 Rajlovac. This was an air force academy, and the Muslims kept these

9 cadets detained in Sarajevo.

10 Q. Right. Do you know a man named Colonel Jeremic?

11 A. Yes. Mr. Jeremic called me on the phone and he said that -- what

12 they had seen on the television, and he said that his superiors were

13 asking to give them Izetbegovic so that he could be exchanged for the

14 aforementioned young cadets who had been detained in Rajlovac, and that's

15 what happened in the end.

16 Q. Was this Jeremic a Belgrade personality? Did he work in Belgrade?

17 A. Yes. He worked in the air force in Belgrade.

18 Q. So did he speak to you personally?

19 A. Yes, yes. He spoke to me personally on the phone.

20 Q. And did -- do you know if he spoke to Mr. Zaric about the matter

21 or did he just deal with you on this issue?

22 A. As far as I know, he only talked to me. I don't think he talked

23 to Zaric.

24 Q. Thank you. Was Mr. Izetbegovic taken out of custody during the

25 course of negotiations?

1 A. Excuse me, I'm not quite sure what your question means, was he

2 taken out of custody?

3 Q. That's not very clear. I apologise. Was he brought over from the

4 TO building into the offices of the SUP during the course of telephone

5 calls and negotiations regarding his exchange, just transferred across

6 the road to the SUP?

7 A. Yes. On -- in two or three occasions, he was transferred from the

8 TO building to the SUP building, the police building.

9 Q. Was that for the purpose of these negotiations on his particular

10 exchange?

11 A. No. As far as I can remember, he was transferred so that he could

12 give a statement, and once he was brought in because he had given an

13 interview to a TV crew.

14 Q. Okay. But I'm not talking about those two occasions. I'm now

15 just confining my questions to the exchange. Was he brought over

16 specifically for negotiations with the exchange -- relating to the

17 exchange?

18 A. Well, as far as I know, he was brought over to the police building

19 so that he could give a statement and because of this -- the fact that he

20 gave the interview to the TV crew, and while he was there, Zaric suggested

21 that he should call Alija on the phone. As far as his exchange to

22 Sarajevo was concerned, there were no discussions with him on that topic,

23 as far as I can recall.

24 Q. When you say "Alija," you mean Alija Izetbegovic?

25 A. Yes, I mean his cousin Alija, who was the president at the time.

1 Q. Well, was Alija Izetbegovic contacted by phone regarding the

2 exchange?

3 A. Yes. He was contacted, but I would like to add the following.

4 Alija Izetbegovic was told that he should try to influence and work out

5 the release of the Serbs from Odzak. As far as I can recall, there was no

6 discussion with Alija regarding the exchange.

7 Q. I'm just not very clear in this. What was the role of

8 Mr. Izet Izetbegovic in these negotiations? What did you want from him?

9 What did Mr. Zaric want from him? What was his significance?

10 A. Izet and Alija are close relatives, and we thought that if Izet

11 called Alija on the phone, he should ask him that Alija influence the

12 Muslim-Croat formations in Odzak to release several thousand Serbs that

13 had been detained there, and then we would release the rest of the Muslims

14 and Croats, although at that time there weren't so many of them there,

15 maybe about 100, but not more.

16 Q. What about the cadets in Serbia? Was that raised at all?

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic?

18 MR. PANTELIC: Just a suggestion to my learned friend. We are

19 going into a little bit confused situation. Were the cadets in Serbia?

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, sorry, perhaps that was a wrong assumption on

21 my part.

22 Q. I'm interested in the role --

23 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Just before you ask that question, just in case

24 we move on to other things, could you not ask the witness directly, did

25 Izet speak to Alija on the telephone, yes or no? Because we know everyone

1 seemed to be talking about it but we don't know yes or no, did they

2 actually connect.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

4 Q. The question is clear: Did he speak to -- did Izet Izetbegovic

5 speak to Alija Izetbegovic on the phone?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was Mr. Simo Zaric present when that occurred and were you present

8 when that occurred?

9 A. I remember that I was present, and a minute or two into the

10 conversation, after the introduction -- introductory conversation of Izet

11 and Alija, I took the receiver and then I talked to Alija Izetbegovic.

12 Whether Zaric was there at that moment or not, I don't know, because he

13 was -- he kept coming and going, so I don't know whether he was in this

14 office at that particular moment.

15 Q. What did you say to Alija Izetbegovic?

16 A. I told Alija Izetbegovic that the Croatian and Muslim units in the

17 area of the municipality of Odzak arrested around 3500 Serbs and that I

18 was asking him to release these Serbs from the camps because I wasn't sure

19 that I, as a police chief, would be able to stop, to prevent the Serbs in

20 the municipality of Samac from doing the same, from arresting Muslims and

21 Croats. So in other words, I wanted to prevent a revenge. And at that

22 moment, he said, "Well, you know, I have no control over this territory of

23 Bosnia. They are listening to what Zagreb says, not to me." And then he

24 said that, "I would tell my Minister of Interior Affairs,

25 Alija Delimustafic, and he will get in touch with you." And after half an

1 hour, his minister, Alija Delimustafic, did indeed call.

2 Q. Throughout the series of phone calls, or at least this first and

3 second phone call, was the question of the exchange of Mr.

4 Izet Izetbegovic ever raised, ever discussed?

5 A. Well, specific issues of the exchange of Izet Izetbegovic was not

6 mentioned, I think, but when Izet phoned him, he said, "Hello, Alija. I

7 have been arrested. I'm here in the police station in Samac. I have been

8 arrested along with the larger number belonging to the leadership of the

9 Party of Democratic Action. Please, could you influence these men in

10 Odzak to release the Serbs so that we could prevent and stop this evil?"

11 As far as I can recall, there was no concrete talks about us releasing

12 Izet and them releasing the others. That's all I can remember at this

13 moment.

14 Q. All right. Well, I'm going to leave this topic, Mr. Todorovic. I

15 want to continue on asking you about exchanges. And I want to ask you now

16 about Father Puskaric.

17 I just want to put to you some passages from the interview that

18 was conducted with you on the 8th of January, 2001.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: For the benefit of Defence counsel, the passages

20 I'm interested in are at pages 50 and 51.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Again, I do apologise, is it 8 or 18 of January?

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Eight. Eighteen, my mistake, one-eight, 18th of

23 January.

24 Q. Nancy Paterson was again asking you questions and you were

25 answering, and she put to you this passage, and I want to ask you about

1 it. "I'd like to talk to you now about Simo Zaric some more and this

2 incident that happened with Catholic priest, Father Puskaric. First, can

3 you explain why Father Puskaric, who was a Roman Catholic priest, got

4 arrested and detained at the police station and later at the Territorial

5 Defence building? And you answered, "Well, believe me, I'm not clear on

6 that point either. I know that he was arrested and I know that he was at

7 the police station, but who brought him there and under whose orders, I

8 don't know."

9 Nancy Paterson then asked you: "What's the reason why you, as the

10 police chief," then something that wasn't picked up by the recording

11 machine was said. She continued: "... or didn't look into this matter to

12 find out what the circumstances were?" And you answered, "Well, it was

13 much easier to find yourself in the police station than to get out of it.

14 I know that somebody brought him there and I was told that he was very

15 valuable and that I should not release him for that reason because, in

16 exchange for him, we could get 100 or 200 from Odzak."

17 Now, it's that last answer of yours that I'm interested in. Can

18 you recall who told you he was valuable?

19 A. People in the Crisis Staff told me about that.

20 Q. And did they explain that his value lay in being able to exchange

21 him for a lot more people, 100 or 200 people from Odzak? That's where his

22 value lay?

23 A. Yes, 100 or 200 people or for a Republika Srpska army officer who

24 might have fallen into their hands. When I say "their hands," I mean

25 Muslims or Croats.

1 Q. Subsequently, were negotiations in fact conducted regarding the

2 exchange of Puskaric?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who conducted those negotiations?

5 A. The negotiations were, generally speaking, conducted by Mr. Tadic

6 and two other members of this commission. And when you're talking about

7 Puskaric, I know that Mr. Zaric, on two or three occasions, took

8 Mr. Puskaric to the building where the radio station is and that he talked

9 to people from Odzak, and that he tried to get Puskaric to influence these

10 people with his authority that they released the Serbs that they held in

11 camps.

12 Q. I'd like you to look at this document that I produce to you,

13 please.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, Defence counsel will know

15 of it as C75.

16 Q. Again, Mr. Todorovic, just acquaint yourself with the general

17 nature of the document and then I'll take you to specific portions to see

18 who signed it, who it's addressed to. Cast your eye over the content.

19 And perhaps my first question should be is this -- the author is

20 apparently Mitar Mitrovic. I think you've mentioned him before.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was he on the Crisis Staff?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The letter is dated the 17th of June, 1992. Was he on the

25 Crisis Staff at that time?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And finally, the stamp, it appears to be the usual Crisis Staff

3 stamp. Can you confirm that?

4 A. It's not a clear copy but it looks like the stamp used by the

5 Crisis Staff.

6 Q. Before we get to the content of the letter, can I ask you this?

7 Do you know a man named Petar Andjelovic?

8 A. I do not know him personally but I heard about this priest, but

9 personally, I didn't know him.

10 Q. So he was a priest. Did he have any connection with

11 Father Puskaric?

12 A. As far as I know, in his position, he was superior to Puskaric in

13 the church hierarchy.

14 Q. That's exactly what I wanted to know, thank you. Following

15 Puskaric's arrest, did anyone try to gain his release?

16 A. This friar, Petar Andjelovic, probably wrote a letter to the

17 Patriarch Pavle and that he asked and requested that Puskaric be released

18 Q. Patriarch Pavle. I'm sorry, Mr. Todorovic, I don't know much

19 about the hierarchy of the Orthodox Church. Is he based in Belgrade and

20 does he hold a very high position in the Orthodox Church?

21 A. Yes, he is in Belgrade, and he is the head of the Orthodox Church

22 of the entire former Yugoslavia.

23 Q. So, obviously, a man of -- who had considerable rank in the

24 Orthodox Church?

25 A. Yes, the highest possible position in the Orthodox Church of

1 Serbia and of the former Yugoslavia.

2 Q. All right. Did he communicate with the Crisis Staff?

3 A. I don't know whether he personally, but from what I've heard, a

4 letter had been sent from the Holy Synod in Belgrade. And in fact, this

5 is either a response to that letter or some telephone call.

6 Q. Are you saying that you had received information that the Orthodox

7 Patriarch had somehow contacted the Crisis Staff, either by letter or by

8 phone? Is that your position? And that this letter that you have before

9 you is the response to that inquiry?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was this matter, the inquiry by the Patriarch in Belgrade and the

12 release of Father Jozo Puskaric, a matter treated as a matter of some

13 importance by the Crisis Staff?

14 A. Yes. Importance was attributed to this appeal made by Patriarch

15 Pavle.

16 Q. In particular, did the Crisis Staff, Crisis Staff members, regard

17 it as a matter of some importance?

18 A. I believe that the majority of the members considered that this

19 appeal by the patriarch is of importance.

20 Q. Thank you. And thus, this letter was created that you have before

21 you, by Mitar Mitrovic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The letter says, in the third paragraph, that Jozo Puskaric was in

24 temporary isolation. Can you comment on that? Do you know if that's true

25 or not?

1 A. Yes. He was detained on a -- temporarily in the police.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic?

3 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I think it would be fair if my learned

4 friend would not take the words out of context because he has certain

5 objections prior to that. Because of the proceedings, maybe he could just

6 make the mention of the word prior to that word that he mentioned so that

7 we have a much clearer picture of the parts of this particular

8 document. Otherwise, it's the endless story, taking the words out of

9 context and then, in our cross, we shall do the same. And it's for the

10 benefit of this time in these proceedings.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: I certainly want to avoid taking words out of

12 context if I can, but I'm not sure what Mr. Pantelic is driving at. The

13 line there, at least in the English, says, "Puskaric is being remanded in

14 custody and in temporary isolation." I don't know if that means he was

15 separated from other prisoners or not, and that's what I'm really

16 interested in.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think, Mr. Pantelic, you can deal with the

18 matter in cross-examination.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely, Your Honour, but let me just make a

20 short -- Mr. Di Fazio said it was temporary isolation. Now he's

21 introducing another word, which changes completely the sense. That was

22 the basis for my suggestion. Line 10, that was his word, "temporary

23 isolation."

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can you leave it with the Prosecution to deal

25 with their case as they see fit? You will have the opportunity in

1 cross-examination to deal with your case as you will see fit.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely, Your Honour. I was --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Please sit down.

4 Mr. Di Fazio, please continue.

5 MR. DI FAZIO:

6 Q. Mr. Todorovic, all I really want to know about that line is this.

7 It says: "The former has been remanded in custody, namely, is in

8 temporary isolation." All I want to know is -- we all agree he was in

9 custody but all I want to know is, was he separated from the other

10 prisoners and kept in some sort of isolation? Because that's how I read

11 it, and if I'm not correct, then I want to know. Was he isolated from the

12 other prisoners?

13 A. As far as I know, he was not isolated, nor was he given some

14 special treatment. He was in custody but he wasn't particularly isolated

15 with more severe measures applied to him.

16 Q. In fact, there seems to be, in the first two paragraphs, some

17 contradiction to me, and I just want to be absolutely clear. The second

18 paragraph says, he's "not imprisoned because imprisonment implies

19 subjecting a person to slavery without any hope of survival in this

20 world." Yet, in the next paragraph, it says he's been remanded in

21 custody.

22 Now, I don't want to quibble about the words. All I want to know

23 is this: Was Father Jozo Puskaric arrested and kept in prison? Was that

24 the plain situation?

25 A. Yes, Friar Jozo Puskaric was detained and he was in the police

1 station and in the TO building.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes?

3 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, this witness said that

4 Friar Jozo Puskaric was detained on remand, which is a great difference in

5 terms of legal category than "was detained." He was detained on remand.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. We must be precise, of course.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: And I will endeavour to be as precise as I can.

9 Q. Did you say that Father Jozo Puskaric was detained on remand?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. As far as you're aware, during this period of remand, did he have

12 many court appearances, private consultations with his lawyer, or anything

13 like that?

14 A. As far as I know, he didn't -- had no court appearances, and as

15 far as I know, he did not have a lawyer.

16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Di Fazio, are we going to find out what he

17 was accused of?

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Good question, if Your Honour pleases. I hadn't

19 asked that.

20 Q. Do you know what he was picked up for, what he was accused of?

21 A. To the question of Mrs. Paterson, I said I didn't know who brought

22 him in and what he was accused of. But later, I believe he was accused of

23 participating in the organisation of an armed rebellion. It was assumed

24 that, in the warehouses of the church, there would be weapons and

25 ammunition. We didn't find any ammunition. We found, however, a lot of

1 food and medical materials. And he was -- the accusation was that he was

2 participating in the preparation of an armed insurgence.

3 Q. Yes. In fact, you commented upon this very issue in your

4 interview of the 3rd of April, 2001. Again, on this occasion, you were

5 being asked a question by an investigator, Mr. Tore Soldal, questions

6 about this very letter, this very document. And he asked you, "What kind

7 of offence are we talking about here?" And you said this: "The fact is

8 that Jozo Puskaric was detained. At the time army and police operated

9 jointly, and there was information that in this storage of the church in

10 which Jozo Puskaric worked, there was a warehouse. There was large

11 amounts of food, oil and ammunition. It later turned out that there were

12 no large amounts of ammunition. There were just large amounts of food."

13 Would you stand by that statement?

14 A. Yes. In fact, that is what I said previously in my answer.

15 Q. Yes.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: And I do apologise, for the purposes of Defence

17 counsel, this is page 38 and 39 of the -- of that interview.

18 Q. And still when he was dealing with this issue, the investigator

19 asked you: "How long time did you actually need to find out this?" He's

20 Norwegian; that might explain the sentence. You replied, "In normal

21 circumstances, this would have been discovered very quickly. In

22 conditions of war, I don't know how long it took. Certainly not so much

23 time, time he spent in custody."

24 Then the investigator asked you, "For me, it looks like the

25 Patriarch wanted you to release this man. Then it would be quite easy to

1 do a search on his premises to see whether he had ammunition or not." You

2 said, "Yes, not much time were needed but unfortunately he spent a lot of

3 time there."

4 Did you say that in the course of the interview?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is it the case, then, that early on in the period of Puskaric's

7 detention, it became clear that he hadn't had -- he hadn't got ammunition

8 stored in his house or his -- in his house?

9 A. I apologise, I didn't understand the question. Or did you pose a

10 question to me?

11 Q. Yes. I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear. What I mean is,

12 Puskaric spent some time in custody. Is it the case that early on in the

13 period of his custody, it became clear that he didn't have ammunition kept

14 at his house?

15 A. Yes. At the beginning, it was very quickly determined that there

16 was no ammunition there.

17 Q. All right. Now, let's move back to the original topic, which is

18 the question of his exchange. Were negotiations conducted with people in

19 Odzak regarding his exchange?

20 A. Yes. As far as I know, and I mentioned that Mr. Zaric, two or

21 three times, took Mr. Puskaric from the TO building to the other building

22 with the radio transmitter, and they established communication with the

23 responsible people in Odzak.

24 Q. And on how many occasions -- I'm sorry, you said this took place

25 two or three times. Was Mr. Zaric always the one conducting the

1 negotiations or did Mr. Tadic involve himself as well?

2 A. I was told on -- that on those -- or two or three occasions, the

3 commander or the deputy commander, that it was Zaric who took Puskaric for

4 these talks. But I wasn't in the building and I wasn't involved. Now,

5 who was present, who were all the people present, I don't know, but I know

6 that Zaric and Puskaric were involved in these concrete cases, two or

7 three cases.

8 Q. You told us that you were responsible for the prisoners and so on,

9 jointly with the Crisis Staff. Did Mr. Simo Zaric clear with you, in

10 other words get your permission, to take Jozo Puskaric out of custody,

11 over to the radio transmitters, to start these negotiations or did he take

12 him out of custody himself, without consulting you?

13 A. As far as I remember, he didn't ask me about that. And I was only

14 informed by the commander or the deputy commander that Zaric took this

15 person there, and he didn't have to ask my permission for that.

16 Q. Did Mr. Zaric command sufficient authority such that he could take

17 out prisoners if he wished, for whatever purposes, for example, the

18 exchange purposes?

19 A. Well, he did have this possibility to go in to talk, to take

20 somebody out and to take him for the exchange.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours please, I seek to produce --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Even -- even he took a group of 30,

24 40 people to the barracks in Brcko.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio?

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, would Your Honours just give me a moment to

2 consult with my colleague?

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

5 [Prosecution counsel confer]

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, thank you. I seek to produce into evidence

7 the letter of Mitar Mitrovic. Perhaps it could be referred to as the

8 letter to the Belgrade Patriarch dated the 17th of June, 1992.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number, please?

10 THE REGISTRAR: It will be P82 ter for the B/C/S and P82 for the

11 English version, Your Honours. Thank you.

12 MR. DI FAZIO:

13 Q. Now, still on the issue of exchanges. I've been asking you about

14 Mr. Zaric thus far. What about Mr. Miroslav Tadic, did he involve himself

15 in exchanges?

16 A. Mr. Tadic was the person who mainly led these exchanges, with

17 another two or three people who were also in the commission -- exchange

18 commission.

19 Q. And how long was he engaged in this process of the exchange

20 commission and the exchanges itself -- themselves?

21 A. Possibly up to autumn, 1992, and later, I heard that the main

22 person involved in exchanges was Captain Grujicic from the 1st Krajina

23 Corps and who had the competence over this entire northern part of the

24 Republika Srpska.

25 Q. Thank you. Very soon after the takeover of -- or the commencement

1 of hostilities around the 16th and 17th, were a small number of Croat and

2 Muslim soldiers killed and their bodies left on a bridge?

3 A. Yes. It happened on the 1st or the 2nd day. It was either the

4 17th, 18th or 19th of April when the attempt was made, they made the

5 attempt to enter Samac.

6 Q. Thank you. What happened to the bodies of those particular -- of

7 those soldiers?

8 A. The bodies -- at the insistence of the representatives of the

9 Muslim and Croat forces in -- from Odzak, on their insistence to stop the

10 fighting and to have an exchange of these bodies for two or three Serb

11 soldiers which were there on that territory. So this was the first

12 exchange which took place, and that is how the exchanges began.

13 Q. And who participated in that particular exchange?

14 A. As far as I recall, Miroslav Tadic and I believe another person

15 with him, but I do not -- maybe Ljubomir Cordasevic or Sveto Vasovic,

16 somebody from the Red Cross of Samac.

17 Q. Were prisoners who were kept in the TO, the SUP, high school gyms,

18 from time to time taken to be exchanged?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was Mr. Tadic involved in those exchanges?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In order to organise, carry out those exchanges, did he need

23 access to the prisons, TO, the SUP, the high school gym and so on?

24 A. Yes. First he had talks via that radio transmitter with the

25 Muslims and Croats from Odzak, and he coordinated with them the list of

1 people who they would be releasing from Odzak and whom they were

2 requesting from Samac. And so Tadic coordinated with that other

3 commission from Odzak. And he contacted with the -- these people that the

4 Muslims and Croats were asking for and who were being detained.

5 Q. If the Croats and Muslims asked for a particular person, how would

6 Mr. Tadic know if they were in custody or not?

7 A. Well, he would ask, inquire, who of these people were -- where are

8 these people that are being requested by Muslims and Croats?

9 Q. Ask who? Ask you or your officers?

10 A. Well, the commander, deputy commanders, would submit to him the

11 lists of people, of detainees, and then -- so that he knew that the people

12 were either detained or they are not.

13 Q. And these were the lists that, I suppose, the -- your department

14 kept and he was provided with those lists? Is that the situation?

15 A. As far as I know, there was a book in which the names of all the

16 detainees were registered, and the commander and deputy commanders would

17 show this list of detainees.

18 Q. You told the Chamber that Mr. Zaric had sufficient authority to

19 gain access from time to time to the prisons. Did Mr. Tadic enjoy the

20 same degree of authority?

21 A. Yes. Mr. Tadic would contact the commander, deputy commander, and

22 he could enter these premises to talk to the people who the Croats and

23 Muslims asked to be exchanged.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I think now is the time for

1 the break.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will take our break now and resume our

3 proceedings at 12.50 hours.

4 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 12.51 p.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Examination-in-chief continuing.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

8 Q. Mr. Todorovic, you were talking about Miroslav Tadic and his role

9 in the exchanges. Did he from time to time report, either formally or

10 informally, to the Crisis Staff about how that was going?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I want to put to you a passage that occurred in your interview of

13 the 4th of April, 2001.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic?

15 MR. PANTELIC: Maybe it's a little bit two-barrelled question,

16 "formally or informally," and he said "Yes." What is formally or

17 informally? Maybe we could clarify that.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, certainly. I think Mr. Pantelic has a point.

19 Q. All right. I failed to clarify that with you, Mr. Todorovic. Did

20 Miroslav Tadic provide formal reports or informal reports, or both?

21 A. Well, I'm not a lawyer so I don't quite understand the terminology

22 used, but as far as I can remember, Mr. Tadic occasionally gave oral

23 reports.

24 Q. Was that at meetings of the Crisis Staff?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. When you were present?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And he would inform the Crisis Staff -- my question is this:

4 Would he inform the Crisis Staff of what was going -- what was happening,

5 how it was -- the whole process was proceeding?

6 A. Well, he didn't give any details but I remember that he would

7 usually give a report when an exchange finished. Afterwards, he would

8 give his impressions. He would do this orally.

9 Q. Thank you. And while we are still on this topic, I want to put to

10 you this passage, as I said, from the 4th of April, 2001.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: For the purposes of Defence counsel, they will find

12 the passage at pages 33 -- at the bottom of page 33, top of page 34 of

13 that interview.

14 Q. Again, Nancy Paterson asked you this and you gave this answer.

15 Question by Nancy Paterson: "You said that Blagoje had some say in who

16 got put on the list and who wasn't put on the list. Now, I know that

17 exchanges were going on for a period of time, were going on fairly

18 regularly. Once a week, once every two weeks, there was an exchange

19 happening. Now let's talk through how this would work. Would

20 Miroslav Tadic draw up, say, the first list of people that were being --

21 who he felt should be released in the next exchange and then would Blagoje

22 have an opportunity to review that list and say, "This person can go, that

23 person needs to stay?" And you answered, "He looked at some lists and I

24 know that they consulted, that he consulted with Tadic. I don't know if

25 he looked at every single list every time."

1 Is that a fair representation of the role of Mr. Blagoje Simic in

2 this exchange process?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Would you agree that exchanges started in the first few months

5 after -- after April, 1992?

6 JUDGE MUMBA: I think, Mr. Di Fazio, before the witness answers, I

7 think you need to be more specific. Because we've had evidence of what

8 was alleged to be exchanges prior to April 1992, somewhere within the

9 Prosecution case, and I think it's better if you are speaking about the

10 Muslims and Croats who were arrested at the beginning of the conflict and

11 thereafter, are you referring to them, their exchanges, or are you

12 referring to the exchanges of other people or just generally? If you

13 could be more specific.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: The only reason I'm not being specific, if Your

15 Honour pleases, is because I don't want to dwell on the topic. I don't

16 want to have to put documentation relating to a particular exchange to the

17 witness.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no, that may not be necessary, but at least

19 if we are sure of which people we are talking about, which exchanges,

20 exchanges concerning which people.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, I see. I understand. I do apologise. I'm now

22 with Your Honour.

23 Q. Yes, that was perhaps inaccurate of me, Mr. Todorovic. As far as

24 the exchanges involving detained prisoners in Bosanski Samac, the Croats

25 and Muslims who were detained in Bosanski Samac are concerned, their

1 exchanges commenced in the first few months, first few weeks indeed, after

2 the events of the 16th and 17th of April?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, months later, was there an exchange commission formed?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Would you please look at this document that I produce

7 to you?

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Before it's shown to the witness, can I just --

9 when it's been dealt with, can I just have a look at the B/C/S original,

10 please?

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the Prosecutor tell us what

12 number this document is so that we could find it as well? Thank you.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: I apologise. C81.

14 Q. Mr. Todorovic, I won't be long on this document as all. Just

15 quickly look at the signature. Again, can you comment?

16 A. Well, it resembles the signature of the President, Blagoje Simic.

17 Q. Thanks. And the document speaks for itself. It says that the War

18 Presidency decided to appoint a committee for the exchange of prisoners,

19 and you can see that the members of this committee include a number of

20 people, including Mr. Tadic. You see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Who were the other two men mentioned, Velimir Maslic and Simo

23 Nikolic?

24 A. Velimir Maslic worked for the municipality, in the Department for

25 Social Activities. I think that's what it was called. Simo Nikolic was

1 in the security part of the 2nd Posavina Brigade, and he was a member of

2 this committee on behalf of that brigade, and throughout all the

3 exchanges, there was always one member from this security section of the

4 2nd Posavina Brigade present.

5 Q. All right. And Article 3 says that this committee had to provide

6 monthly reports on exchanges of prisoners to the War Presidency. Do you

7 say that, in fact, Mr. Tadic was providing reports even before he was

8 required to do so, pursuant to this decision? And they are the oral

9 reports you mentioned just earlier.

10 A. Yes. I said that, from time to time, he submitted oral reports.

11 Q. Thanks. Following the creation of this exchange commission, do

12 you know if he continued to provide oral reports or did he provide --

13 start to provide written reports, or both, or don't you know?

14 A. As far as I know, he submitted oral -- he continued to submit oral

15 reports from time to time.

16 Q. Yes. Thank you.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I produce the document into

18 evidence.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Could we have the number, please?

20 THE REGISTRAR: It will be P83 and P83 ter, Your Honours. Thank

21 you.

22 MR. DI FAZIO:

23 Q. Was there any fee involved -- I'll withdraw that. Did people who

24 were exchanged ever pay money to get exchanged?

25 A. Since at that time there were a lot of misinformation floating

1 around, I heard that there were some people who offered money to

2 Mr. Tadic. I tried to figure out what was going on, and I asked this one

3 man that was talking about it, "Do you want to be a witness so that I can

4 start an investigation?" And he said, "No." Then I said, "Well, then,

5 don't spread rumours if you're not ready to testify on them." This is

6 with regard to Mr. Tadic. But I knew of another event that has to do with

7 another man, but I don't know whether you would be interested in that. If

8 you ask me, I will tell you.

9 Q. Thank you. I'll just put a passage to you from your interview of

10 the 6th of November, 2000.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: For the purposes of Defence counsel, they will find

12 the passage at page 54.

13 Q. You were being asked questions by an investigator. The

14 investigator asked you: "As you most probably know, several witnesses

15 claim that Tadic asked for money to put people on the exchange list. Do

16 you know anything about that?" And you answered, "Well, I heard that

17 being said but when I tried to get those people to give a statement to

18 testify, they wouldn't do it. So I heard it as a story but I have no

19 proof of it. I also heard that Fadil Topcagic was forging IDs for Croats

20 and Muslims, to take them across the Drina and help them get away to

21 Western Europe, and I tried it put a stop to that operation but again I

22 wasn't able to prove it."

23 The first part of your answer is what interests me. You said that

24 you heard of Mr. Tadic taking money. From whom did you receive that

25 information? What was your source of information?

1 A. At this -- right at this moment, I cannot remember my source of

2 information but as I've already said, there were a lot of rumours and lies

3 floating around. And as I said in my previous answer, I wanted to start

4 an investigation so I asked this man to help me, and he refused. So then

5 I told him, "Well, don't assign blame to somebody if you don't know that

6 what you're saying is true and you refuse to participate in an

7 investigation that would prove whether these rumours and allegations were

8 true or not."

9 Q. Okay. Thank you.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: I want to produce another document to the

11 witness. The document will be known to Defence counsel as C89.

12 If Your Honours please, I think the usher may be missing part of

13 that. Thank you.

14 Q. Again, Mr. Todorovic, I'll be very brief with this document. I

15 don't want to dwell on it for long. You can immediately have a look at it

16 and you can see that it's a decision appointing someone else to the

17 exchange commission. That person is Simeun Simeunovic. Who was he?

18 A. This copy is quite bad. I don't know who Simeun Simeunovic is. I

19 know that there is a man called Simeon Simic but I don't know who

20 Simeun Simeunovic is.

21 Q. Is the signature quite bad on your copy?

22 A. Yes, it's quite bad. You can't even see the stamp very well.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Given those circumstances, if Your Honours please,

24 I don't propose to produce that into evidence. If you wish, the matter

25 can be marked -- the document can be marked for identification so we keep

1 custody of it and we know what --

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the numbers for identification only?

3 THE REGISTRAR: It will be P84 ID and P84 ter ID, Your Honours.

4 Thank you.

5 MR. DI FAZIO:

6 Q. Another document that I want to produce to you on the issue of

7 exchanges, Mr. Todorovic.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: And for the benefit of Defence counsel, they will

9 know of it as C70.

10 Q. Mr. Todorovic, can you just quickly look at the signature and tell

11 us if it appears to be that of Dr. Blagoje Simic?

12 A. This is also a bad copy but the signature does resemble the

13 signature of Mr. Blagoje Simic.

14 Q. The order refers to the temporary accommodation of people who came

15 in from Odzak, who were exchanged from Odzak, I believe.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic?

17 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. As a matter of qualification,

18 it's not order, it's conclusion.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, yeah, that's the title on the English

20 translation.

21 MR. PANTELIC: And I beg your pardon, now it's confused me

22 totally. C70 is conclusion of War Presidency dated, I suppose, 23rd

23 November of 1992. Maybe it's some kind of misunderstanding.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: No, I hope we have all got the same document. We

25 need to clarify that straight away.

1 First of all, Mr. Usher, may I see a copy of the document that's

2 being presented to the witness?

3 MR. PANTELIC: Because in that case, it might be order but it's

4 not C70 document. It's conclusion.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: I think what's happened here is the case manager

6 gave me the wrong document, but let's start again. For the purpose of

7 Defence counsel, C70 is the document that I'm interested in. It's

8 entitled "Order on the Implementation of the Decision of the Crisis Staff

9 on Temporary Housing of Exchanged Persons." That's the document that I

10 have as C70. It's on the 65 ter list.

11 Is that the document that Your Honours have or do you have some

12 other document?

13 JUDGE MUMBA: No, this is a different document.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: There has been a mistake. I just ask the Chamber

15 to be patient while we get it. It won't take a moment. If Your Honours

16 please, I regret to say we don't have copies of this at the moment. I can

17 give you my case manager's copy. Might I just show it to you briefly now

18 and then produce --

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we can look at it.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: I apologise for the hiccup in the provision of

21 these documents. Mr. Usher?

22 May I proceed, Your Honours?

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can proceed.

24 MR. DI FAZIO:

25 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. Could you just have a look at

1 that document?

2 A. [No interpretation]

3 Q. Do you recognise any signature?

4 A. Again, it's a poor copy but it resembles the signature of

5 Mr. Blagoje Simic.

6 Q. Thank you. I have just a few very brief questions about this

7 document. First of all, Article 3 refers to a First Lieutenant

8 Ljubomir M. Tadic. That is not, I believe, the defendant in this case,

9 Miroslav Tadic.

10 A. Yes. It does not refer to Miroslav Tadic.

11 Q. Thank you. The Article 1 says that the individuals who came from

12 Odzak will be given temporary accommodation in Hasici, MZ. Before April

13 16 and 17, was that a Croat village?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: I tender the document, if Your Honours please.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number, please?

18 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry, am I to keep counsel's copy?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Copies for the registry are available, aren't they?

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, yes. Those copies can be tendered.

21 THE REGISTRAR: They will be P85 and P85 ter, Your Honours. Thank

22 you.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can proceed.

24 MR. DI FAZIO:

25 Q. Mr. Todorovic, I want to now move away from the question of

1 exchange to another topic now, and that is, the question of people working

2 in the Bosanski Samac municipality after the events of the 16th and 17th

3 of April. Firstly, was there a Ministry of National Defence under --

4 under a man named Milos Bogdanovic, who you've mentioned before?

5 A. Yes, there was this section, municipal section of the Ministry of

6 Defence headed by Mr. Milos Bogdanovic.

7 Q. Did he later -- did he later -- was he later replaced by another

8 man?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Who was he replaced by?

11 A. He was replaced by Mr. Bozo Ninkovic.

12 Q. Mr. Todorovic, I'd like to produce two documents to you now so

13 that we can speed matters up, and I'd like you to quickly have a look at

14 them.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: For the purposes of Defence counsel, they are C74

16 and C68.

17 Q. And again, Mr. Todorovic, I do not wish to dwell too long on these

18 documents. I only need to make one or two basic points from them. Would

19 you please look at one document which is dated the 8th of June, 1992, and

20 refers to the, I believe, appointment of Bozo Ninkovic. Do you have that?

21 A. I have the document. I don't see exactly, is it the 8th of March

22 or the 13th of March?

23 Q. I believe the document should be dated the 8th of June. Can you

24 see that at the top left-hand corner?

25 A. It could be the 8th of June.

1 Q. We won't quibble about the date. What about the signature at the

2 bottom of the document? Is that apparently the signature of

3 Dr. Blagoje Simic?

4 A. Yes, it resembles the signature of Mr. Blagoje Simic.

5 Q. Thank you. And I know it's not clear but could you try and do

6 your best? Look at paragraph 1. Does that apparently appoint

7 Bozo Ninkovic as Secretary of the Municipal Secretariat for National

8 Defence?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. Now would you look at the other document? That is

11 dated the 14th of June, I believe, and that should be a better copy.

12 Again, is it apparently signed by Dr. Blagoje Simic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And it speaks for itself. It says Milos Bogdanovic is going to be

15 relieved of that post in the Secretariat for the National Defence, does it

16 not?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. These two men, Bozo Ninkovic and Milos Bogdanovic, were they both

19 on the Crisis Staff?

20 A. Milos Bogdanovic was a member of the Crisis Staff while still

21 being the head, while when he -- his function ended, he was replaced by

22 Bozo Ninkovic, who then became also a member of the Crisis Staff. So they

23 weren't on the Crisis Staff at the same time, the two of them.

24 Q. All right. One preceded the other?

25 MR. PANTELIC: For the record, just in question of my learned

1 friend, it was page 74, line 12 and 13, he asks him: Milos Bogdanovic

2 going to be relieved of the post in the Secretariat for National Defence?

3 In fact, this document speaks for itself. It's the municipal secretariat.

4 Just for the clarification, we are not speaking of the upper level of

5 secretariat. It's municipal.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, thank you. I accept what Mr. Pantelic says.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

8 MR. DI FAZIO:

9 Q. Anyway, these two men were members of the Crisis Staff but one

10 followed the other?

11 A. Yes, one followed the other.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I produce the documents

14 into evidence. Perhaps we could have them sequential so that C68 gets the

15 first number and C74 gets the second.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: The one dated the 8th of June first.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, and the next number that's available and then

18 the one dated the 14th of June, which is C74, gets the next exhibit

19 number.

20 THE REGISTRAR: It will be P86 ter and P86 for the decision dated

21 8 June, 1992, and it will be P87 and P87 ter for the document dated 14th

22 of June, 1992. Thank you.

23 MR. DI FAZIO:

24 Q. Mr. Todorovic, there is no doubt that people in Bosanski Samac

25 were engaged in working after the 16th and 17th of April. It's been

1 referred to as forced labour or work assignment. The title doesn't

2 particularly interest me. What does interest me is this: Who was

3 responsible for organising and conducting that work?

4 A. For the organisation of the work assignment, the Municipal

5 Secretariat for National Defence was the competent body.

6 Q. So both men that we have just been talking about, Bozo Ninkovic

7 and Milos Bogdanovic, were heading up the body that dealt with this issue?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And both were members of the Crisis Staff. Did they from time to

10 time report to the Crisis Staff about how that was going, the same way

11 that you provided reports, Mr. Tadic provided reports, that sort of thing?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. The -- we've heard evidence that the Catholic church in Bosanski

14 Samac was demolished and removed. Were people who engaged in work

15 assignments or forced labour engaged in the removal of the remains of the

16 church?

17 A. As far as I know, in the removal of the remnants of the demolished

18 church, the trucks were engaged, and machinery. Now, whether any of these

19 people who were in detention, I wouldn't know.

20 Q. I'm not talking about people in detention. I'm talking about

21 people who were involved in forced labour or work assignments, people used

22 to gather in front of the Spomen Dom building?

23 A. Let me say that I didn't control or -- and I wasn't informed in

24 detail, but as far as I know, these big concrete blocks of the demolished

25 church were removed in big trucks and they were -- also used big machinery

1 for loading on these trucks. And I'm not aware that the people who would

2 be meeting in front of the pensioners' house centre, that they would be

3 involved.

4 Q. Did people who performed work assignments or forced labour engage

5 in digging trenches?

6 A. As far as I'm aware, that was also the case.

7 Q. Okay. I take it from your position in security and heading up the

8 police and so on, it wasn't a matter that you concerned yourself with, the

9 question of the work assignment and so on?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Now, it's not in dispute in this case that at some

12 point Odzak was taken over by Serb forces, after fighting. After that

13 occurred, did Mr. Simo Zaric go there to carry out various duties?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you know a man named Savo Popovic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did he have any role to play in Odzak?

18 A. You're referring to Savo Popovic?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. Yes, yes, he had a role.

21 Q. What was the role of Mr. Simo Zaric in Odzak and what was the role

22 of Mr. Savo Popovic in Odzak?

23 A. Mr. Savo Popovic was the President of that civilian council, or

24 whatever the name was, and Mr. Zaric was his assistant or deputy.

25 Q. Had Savo Popovic ever been on the Crisis Staff?

1 A. Are you referring to the Crisis Staff in Samac?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. Yes, yes. He was on the Crisis Staff, a member of the Crisis

4 Staff in Samac.

5 Q. And he -- while he was working in Odzak on this assignment,

6 whatever it was, was he still a member of the Crisis Staff?

7 A. I really wouldn't know how it was regulated, but I know that he

8 would come to the Crisis Staff in Samac, asking for certain help, certain

9 assistance, for the jobs that had to be done.

10 Q. Following the takeover of Odzak by Serb forces, did any people go

11 there to perform forced labour or work assignment?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did the Crisis Staff ever deal with this issue in any way at all?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How did that come about?

16 A. Mr. Savo Popovic would occasionally come. He would inform the

17 members of the Crisis Staff that there are quite a number of demolished

18 homes, that the agricultural works have to be performed, that the waterway

19 has to be recovered, and that the consequences of war, they had to dwell

20 on -- as a consequence of war, they had to do a lot of repair work.

21 Q. Right. Did he need workers to help him do that?

22 A. Yes. As there was only a small number of Serbs who were returning

23 to their homes, their homes were mainly burned down and demolished, there

24 weren't many able-bodied persons to work, and from Odzak, they requested

25 help for this type of work.

1 Q. That's what I am interested in. Did Mr. Savo Popovic request help

2 for carrying out the repair work following the battle in Odzak?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was that request made or conveyed to the Crisis Staff?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did the Crisis Staff respond and find workers?

7 A. The Crisis Staff usually responded positively, and referred

8 Mr. Popovic to the Municipal Secretariat of National Defence, where he

9 would be assigned a number of workers.

10 Q. Was this problem of cleaning up Odzak following the battle a

11 fairly important matter that needed to be attended to, so far as you could

12 gather from what you heard and saw?

13 A. One could say that it was an important matter, because the water

14 pipes were ruptured, the telephone lines, and in order to organise life

15 again there, this had to be repaired.

16 Q. And was this a matter that was being attended to, as far as you

17 could tell, from the administration in Odzak?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. Was this the administration of which Simo Zaric played a part, the

20 administration in which he was working, along with Savo Popovic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Were specialists ever needed for the -- for this sort of

23 cleaning-up activity, for example, electricians, plumbers and so on?

24 A. At the beginning, they were essential, plumbers, electricians, and

25 specialists for other areas.

1 Q. Was this particular requirement for specialist workers made known

2 to the Crisis Staff?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Excuse me. Would Your Honours just bear with me

5 for a moment, please?

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

7 [Prosecution counsel confer]

8 MR. DI FAZIO: I do apologise, would Your Honours just bear with

9 me for one moment longer? Thank you.

10 [Prosecution counsel confer]

11 MR. DI FAZIO:

12 Q. Do you know if women were engaged in working in Odzak?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. I think I've almost completed this topic,

15 Mr. Todorovic. I may return to it briefly later on but, for the moment, I

16 want to now turn to another topic and that is the question of seizure of

17 goods and properties.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Again, would Your Honours just bear with me for a

19 moment? Thank you.

20 Q. I want to produce a document to you, Mr. Todorovic.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, Defence counsel will know

22 of it as C25.

23 Q. Could you just acquaint yourself with that document,

24 Mr. Todorovic?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Now, on this document, I don't think there is a very clear

2 signature, but there is a stamp. Is that the Crisis Staff stamp?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. It refers to Crisis Staffs of local communities taking over goods,

5 material, equipment and other items confiscated or recovered from the zone

6 of combat and keeping them in storage at Bosanac and Uniglas. Do you see

7 that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And, in fact, were those places warehouses of goods, all sorts of

10 goods, all types of goods?

11 A. Well, smaller quantity of goods was then stored there.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: I seek to tender that document into evidence.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the numbers, please?

15 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. It will be P88 ter for the

16 B/C/S and P88. Thank you.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic?

18 MR. PANTELIC: Just for the record, Your Honours, according to our

19 position, we do have objections to the authenticity of this document.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, it's 1.45. Is this the

21 time that --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will adjourn and continue our proceedings

23 on Monday at 9.00.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, perhaps on the issue that

25 was raised by Mr. -- I believe that Ms. Reidy has a matter of some

1 importance that she needs to raise with the Chamber.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: On the issue raised by Mr. Pantelic?

3 MR. DI FAZIO: No, another matter.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Because I thought that -- I wanted to deal with that

5 on Monday. Is there another matter?

6 MR. DI FAZIO: It concerns the witness. So perhaps it's best

7 if she speak to you about it.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.

9 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, the Bench had requested information from

10 the Prosecution on the witnesses to follow Mr. Todorovic.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

12 MS. REIDY: That will be provided in writing. I think it's the

13 easiest way to deal with that.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

15 MS. REIDY: But the Bench is aware that one of those witnesses for

16 whom a motion and protective measures will be sought, is going to be

17 giving testimony via videolink.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

19 MS. REIDY: It was our suggestion, in consultation with the

20 registry, that this was okay, that that take place on the 19th of June.

21 That would be Wednesday week. And that is one of the days that this

22 gentleman is not attending dialysis treatment and is not in hospital and

23 could do that. I think the Defence think that's okay. I don't want to

24 put that in a motion if, for example, this witness is still on the stand

25 by then or if that doesn't suit the Bench, but I would like to just take

1 instruction from the Bench as to whether or not we should go ahead and put

2 a videolink in place for the 19th of June, because it is something that

3 requires, obviously, prior planning.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: That is up to the Prosecution, how they line up

5 their witnesses and also how you discuss with the people responsible for

6 setting up videolink testimony. You can inform the Defence and discuss

7 with them or put it in a confidential minute to them so that, if they have

8 any objection, they can raise them, but I can't see any objections,

9 because these are preparations -- these are arrangements which require

10 time and consultation with other people who are not members of the

11 Tribunal, necessarily.

12 MS. REIDY: Absolutely, Your Honour. So do I take it that if we

13 go ahead and set it up on the 19th as everybody on the logistical side has

14 agreed it's possible, and we go ahead and do that, that should this

15 witness still be in the process of cross-examination, we would take a

16 break on the 19th of June to take this videolink testimony and then

17 continue with this witness on the 19th? That's just really my concern I'd

18 like to get instruction from the Bench on.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: What you want is that, once we start the videolink

20 witness, we should, as much as possible, complete the evidence of that

21 witness?

22 MS. REIDY: Yes, given his hospital requirements, he would be done

23 in one day but also, as I said, given the unpredictability of how long

24 this current witness might take on the stand, it is possible he could

25 still be finishing his cross on that date, although I would hope by

1 Wednesday week he'll be finished. But we would nevertheless I hope

2 interpose that videolink if all the arrangements are in place,

3 notwithstanding the situation with this witness, if that's clear.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, I think you just put it in writing. It

5 will be much clearer, and looking at the -- because Mr. Di Fazio knows how

6 much longer he requires the witness in chief, for instance, and that could

7 have repercussions on the time required for cross-examination.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll attempt to do my level best to try and stick

9 to the timetable that I've indicated, but I'm optimistic that even in the

10 worst-case scenario, we still wouldn't be going Wednesday week. So I

11 don't think it will be a problem.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy, please put your requirements for this

13 videolink on paper so that the Defence are clear, and then they can make

14 whatever submissions they want to make.

15 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour, I will.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: We will adjourn now and continue our proceedings on

17 Monday at 9.00.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

19 1.50 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

20 the 10th day of June, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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