1 Monday, 15 July 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo

9 Zaric.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the Prosecution. Mr. Di Fazio.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Good afternoon, Your Honours. May I proceed with

12 my examination-in-chief?

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

15 WITNESS: WITNESS A [Resumed]

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Examined by Mr. Di Fazio: [Continued]

18 Q. Witness, following -- at the end of your testimony at the last

19 occasion you were here, we started to -- I started asking you some

20 questions regarding your wife during the period of time following the

21 events of the 16th and 17th of April, and I think you said that she left

22 Bosanski Samac on the 16th of April. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Throughout the period of time that you were incarcerated and up

25 until your release, did she remain out of Bosanski Samac in Croatian-held

1 territory?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. She had your children with her?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was she able to travel for at least a period of that time, that

6 is, the time between your arrest and your eventual exchange, into Odzak

7 from time to time?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Following your release - sorry, your exchange - did you presumably

10 talk to her about the circumstances of your incarceration and attempts --

11 your attempts or just the issue of exchanges generally?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did she discuss any attempts or any interest that she had shown in

14 getting you exchanged?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you recall -- or rather, did she report to you of anything

17 that she had heard regarding you and/or the possibility of you being

18 exchanged during the period of time that you were held in custody?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you now tell the Chamber what it was that she reported to you

21 regarding that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Yes. Please go ahead and tell us.

24 A. After my exchange, I talked to my wife on several occasions about

25 why they were unable to exchange me earlier, and she told me that she went

1 through Slavonia and Slavonski Svilaj on the ferry to Odzak to seek that I

2 be exchanged. She had great confidence in herself, and she wanted to meet

3 the people who were involved in exchanges. On one occasion she told me

4 that she was present when the conversation took place between -- the

5 conversation, she overheard it over the radio transmitter, and the

6 conversation was between somebody in Odzak and somebody in Samac.

7 Q. Did she report to you who -- as to who were the personalities

8 speaking on the radio?

9 A. She said that she had heard the voice of Simo Zaric and the voice

10 of Milos Bogdanovic.

11 Q. Did she report to you what Simo Zaric had said, apparently over

12 the radio?

13 A. As they were discussing the exchanges, she told me that there were

14 some two or three options and none of it was acceptable. And then she

15 heard the voice of Simo. She heard that he asked that two JNA pilots be

16 exchanged for me. Then the conversation was disrupted, and then the

17 exchange was not discussed any more. She did not remember who had said

18 that I was in Serbia at that time.

19 Q. Thank you. What I want to be clear about is this -- I withdraw

20 that question. Did she often -- did she report to you that she often went

21 to listen to the exchange negotiations?

22 A. Well, she was able to overhear that particular conversation

23 because she did not believe that people from the Croatian side had sought

24 me, and because of that she was brought into that room and told, "Well,

25 here. Come on in, and you will be able to hear the negotiations

1 yourself."

2 Q. Thank you. Now, as at this point of time, in 1992, how long had

3 your wife known Simo Zaric?

4 A. Well, she has known him as long as I have. I knew him a bit

5 better because I socialised with him more. However, she knew him quite

6 well too, because he was the one who hired her when he was the secretary.

7 Q. What do you mean "hired her when he was the secretary"? What are

8 you referring to?

9 A. I'm referring to the time when he was appointed secretary of the

10 secretariat, or rather, the head of the secretariat, and after that he

11 hired her. My wife worked at the same place where I did, and she knew him

12 quite well.

13 Q. And she presumably, therefore, would have had an opportunity to

14 speak to him and hear him speak and hear his voice.

15 A. Well, it's quite natural for her to recognise his voice upon

16 hearing it, because she had known him for 20 years, worked in the same

17 organisation and listened to his voice for that many years, so it was not

18 difficult for her to recognise his voice.

19 Q. Thank you. One last question: You have already described your

20 exchange in detail. I don't propose to go into the details of that any

21 more, but just one last question. As at April of 1992, and before the

22 events of the night of the 16th and 17th of April, had you had any plans

23 or intentions to uproot yourself from your home and leave Bosanski Samac?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Yes. Thank you very much, Witness. I have no further questions.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination.

2 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. Good afternoon, Your Honours. On behalf of

3 Mr. Zaric's Defence, I will cross-examine the witness.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry. Your Honours, may I just seek the

5 assistance of the usher to remove the ELMO machine over a bit? I can't

6 see the witness at all, and I'd just like to be able to see him when he's

7 testifying.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Lazarevic:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. I will address you as

12 "Witness A" during this cross-examination. Please do not consider this a

13 sign of my disrespect. It is just that we need to keep your identity

14 secret, so this is the main reason why I will be addressing you in this

15 manner.

16 My name is Aleksandar Lazarevic. I am an attorney representing

17 Mr. Simo Zaric in this trial. And on behalf of my client I will be

18 putting some questions to you. The questions are designed in such a way

19 as to elicit a yes-or-no answer from you. If you do not remember

20 something, then please just tell us so. If you do not understand

21 something, then please again tell me that you did not understand the

22 question quite well, and then I will either reformulate it or try to clear

23 it in another way.

24 Since you and I can understand each other well -- but for the sake

25 of the interpreters, the Prosecution, and the Trial Chamber, I will ask

1 you to make a short pause after my question before giving your answer so

2 that we do not overlap and so that we make it easier for the interpreters.

3 I will also have to switch off my mike before letting you answer the

4 question so that your voice is not overheard through my microphone. And

5 before I start putting questions to you, I would like to tell you, on

6 behalf of my client, that he sincerely regrets everything that you and

7 your family have suffered during these unfortunate events in Bosnia and

8 Herzegovina. My client has asked me to convey this to you.

9 And now let's start with questions. But before we do that, let me

10 just tell you this: In view of your past health problems, if you should

11 feel any discomfort, please tell us immediately.

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, for easy handling of this

13 cross-examination, I believe that the witness should have his statement,

14 given according to Rule 92 bis. The number of this statement is P132.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: And I believe he should have it in front of

17 himself, because I will refer to some paragraphs.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

19 Can the witness be given the statement, please.

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. You have your statement in front of you. I will refer to certain

22 paragraphs of your statement during my cross-examination, and I might ask

23 for clarification or I might ask you to elaborate on some things that I

24 consider important, so I think it will be the easiest if you have that

25 statement in front of you.

1 Now I will ask you to turn to page 2, paragraph 6 of your

2 statement. In this paragraph, you spoke about certain tasks that you

3 performed while you worked for the Secretariat of the Interior, and in

4 your last statement you mentioned some certain security tasks that you

5 personally were involved in. I would like to ask you now whether you can

6 confirm that Mr. Zaric, who at the time was chief of police, was in charge

7 of that very operation of securing the railway at the time when President

8 Tito's train passed through that region. Was Mr. Zaric the superior

9 person at that time?

10 A. Yes. He was my superior at the time.

11 Q. Well, such things as securing the area for the travel of the

12 president, was that something that the department of the state security

13 was in charge of?

14 A. Well, in this paragraph, I describe things that I had performed,

15 together with my colleagues, during my career, and I simply made an

16 example, gave an example, saying that at that time the then president of

17 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, Josip Broz Tito, had passed

18 through the region. Since we were at the very entrance into Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina, we were there where the railway passed, the railway which he

20 travelled, and I, as a member of police at the time, was involved in

21 securing this area where he passed through.

22 Q. Yes. Thank you very much. But in any case, Mr. Zaric was in

23 charge of such tasks at the time, wasn't he?

24 A. Well, he was in charge in our organisation at that level, and I

25 suppose that somebody else was in charge of the entire project of securing

1 this area.

2 Q. Thank you very much. That's all I wanted to hear.

3 Now, sir, in this statement that you gave here, you said that you

4 generally knew the tasks performed by Mr. Zaric and his responsibilities.

5 Since there are certain things that are unclear regarding this, it is

6 unclear to me and to Mr. Zaric, and as a result of that, I would like to

7 inform you of certain things that Mr. Zaric claims are true regarding his

8 employment and will ask you to confirm that for me.

9 The first thing I will ask you to confirm for me is whether

10 Mr. Zaric was the chief of police in Bosanski Samac municipality, or as

11 you called that office, he was secretary of the Secretariat of the

12 Interior in the time period between 13th of May --

13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the dates. If the

14 counsel could please repeat them.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, all of these things

16 that took place up until 1992, and especially those matters that have to

17 do with my suffering, is something that I try to forget, and I try to turn

18 that into my past experience that needs to be forgotten. So I have to

19 apologise if I misstated a year here or there, but I know it for a fact

20 that starting in 1975 or 1976, Mr. Zaric worked in the Secretariat of the

21 Interior, where, according to the then law in force, he was the main

22 person in the secretariat, and I know that he served for two terms, which

23 should be somewhere about eight years.

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, since the interpreters didn't manage to

1 interpret the dates that I gave you, let me tell you about this time

2 period. It was from 13th of May, 1975 until the 1st of September, 1979.

3 I'm telling you this so that the times can be properly recorded.

4 So you are telling us that Mr. Zaric served as chief of police for

5 two terms in Bosanski Samac; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When I was going over the transcript of your evidence, I saw some

8 things that I would like to clarify with you now. When the Prosecutor

9 asked you about the office of the secretary of the secretariat, he asked

10 you whether that referred to the office in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and you

11 replied yes, based on which somebody could make a wrong conclusion that

12 Mr. Zaric was the secretary of the secretariat of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

13 But in fact what you referred to was the secretariat in Bosanski Samac;

14 isn't that right?

15 A. Yes. Let me clarify this. The gentleman in question was the

16 secretary of the Secretariat of the Interior in Bosanski Samac, and this

17 secretariat was under the Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia and

18 Herzegovina.

19 Q. Based on that, we can conclude that at the time the province of

20 Mr. Zaric's responsibility was the municipality of Bosanski Samac; is that

21 right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Then you went on to discuss other things regarding Mr. Zaric, and

24 you said that he was the director of Buducnost company from Samac. Can

25 you confirm for me now that this post, meaning the director of the

1 Buducnost company from Samac, which was within the company called Sipad in

2 Sarajevo, was something that Mr. Zaric performed between 1979 and 1982,

3 when he assumed another office?

4 A. I will ask you not to hold me to the specific years. Whether it

5 was in 1979 or later, I can't tell you. I know that he served for two

6 terms, and then after that he became the director of Sipad, or rather,

7 Buducnost, as it was called in Samac.

8 Q. Naturally, I will not insist on making you quote the specific

9 year. This is something that we need to agree with our colleagues from

10 the Prosecution. But I will ask you a few more things just to clarify

11 this further.

12 So after this office that Mr. Zaric held, when he was the director

13 of Buducnost, after that he was, from the 1st of September, 1982, until

14 1985, director of Sipad's representative office in Belgrade. Can you

15 confirm that for me, please?

16 A. What I can confirm to you is this: That Mr. Zaric served for two

17 terms as secretary of the secretariat in Bosanski Samac, after which he

18 went on to work in Buducnost; and after that, I do not remember exactly

19 whether he went to work for Sipad in Belgrade, as a representative of that

20 company there, or whether he perhaps went to the centre of the state

21 security in Doboj, or rather, whether he went to its detachment in

22 Modrica, I mean the state security's detachment.

23 Q. Thank you very much. I have an additional question pertaining to

24 this that you have just told us about Mr. Simo Zaric serving two terms as

25 the secretary of the Secretariat of the Interior at the municipal level.

1 Could you please tell us how long is the term of office of the secretary

2 of the Secretariat of the Interior? I mean the municipal secretariat.

3 A. Well, at that time, the term of office was four years. Allegedly

4 a person could serve for only two terms.

5 Q. We can conclude, then, that Mr. Zaric served for eight years as

6 the secretary of the Secretariat of the Interior in Bosanski Samac, based

7 on what you have just told us; is that correct?

8 A. Well, if he served for two terms, then it's quite clear that two

9 times four is eight.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, it may not be a

11 particularly important point, but it might be sensible to know if they

12 were consecutive terms or whether two separate terms at different times in

13 four years.

14 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honours. I can clarify that with the

15 witness. I have no problem with this.

16 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, you heard the question from the Prosecutor.

17 Were these consecutive terms or two separate terms, which means that from

18 the -- between the first four-year term and the second two-year term,

19 perhaps Mr. Zaric performed some other jobs.

20 A. From the time when he was appointed as the secretary of the

21 secretariat, he held that post in continuity, throughout this period.

22 There was no disruption of his post, term in office.

23 Q. Can you confirm that as of the 1st of September, 1985, Mr. Zaric

24 worked in the State Security Service in the centre of the Security Service

25 in Doboj?

1 A. I said that I don't recall the years, but if in 1975 [as

2 interpreted] he worked in Samac, then he could not have worked in Doboj at

3 the same time.

4 Q. I apologise. My question referred to 1985, and that's what is

5 recorded in the transcript. Perhaps you didn't hear me right. We're

6 talking about 1985, not 1975.

7 A. I'm sorry. I heard you say "1975."

8 Q. Well, at any rate, as of 1985, did Mr. Simo Zaric work for the

9 State Security Service?

10 A. Well, after he left Buducnost, when he was no longer the director

11 in Buducnost, he joined the State Security Service in the Doboj centre.

12 Q. Just one more question pertaining to the jobs that Mr. Simo Zaric

13 had had between 1986 and the 1st of September, 1991, when Mr. Zaric

14 retired, can you confirm that in that period Mr. Simo Zaric was the head

15 of the Modrica detachment of the State Security Service centre in Doboj?

16 A. Well, he worked in the State Security Service centre in Doboj. He

17 dealt with certain tasks, performed some kind of jobs that I am not aware

18 of. And when he went to Odzak, when he was transferred to Odzak as the

19 detachment head - in other words, it was a forward section, and the

20 headquarters were located in Modrica.

21 Q. Thank you very much. I would now like to move on to another

22 topic. Could you please go to page 8 of your statement. That would be

23 paragraph 30. Could you please let me know when you've found it.

24 A. Well, it's page 9, in fact, of my copy.

25 Q. Paragraph 30, which begins with the words "on the 17th of April,

1 at around 2.00 a.m." Can you please confirm whether that's the paragraph

2 you're looking at?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Regarding this paragraph, I notice that you mention a

5 walkie-talkie here. I would like to ask you a few questions in this

6 regard. Is this a Motorola walkie-talkie?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. This would be a standard-issue police Motorola that other members

9 of the police force had; is that correct?

10 A. Yes. In Samac they had such equipment.

11 Q. Perhaps I was not quite clear. I am only interested in the police

12 force in Bosanski Samac. So could you please tell me whether it is true

13 that the members of the reserve and of the active police force had the

14 same type of Motorolas in Samac.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So I can conclude, based on your answer, that Namik Suljic had the

17 exact same Motorola. He was the commander of the reserve police. Is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes. He had one with him that very evening, and I don't know who

20 else had one, but those people who were securing the bridge, the people

21 who were in the town, there were perhaps about four or five such

22 Motorolas, and they were issued to people, and they only functioned on a

23 channel or a frequency where one could get in touch with the duty officer

24 in the station.

25 Q. Thank you very much. These are precisely the questions that I

1 wanted to ask you in this respect. If I understand you correctly, you

2 used the term "single-channel Motorola." That means that one could

3 communicate only on a single channel; you could not communicate over

4 several channels. Do I understand it correctly?

5 A. Well, we all worked on one channel. Let me just say that the

6 Motorolas were already obsolete. They were the old-type Motorolas, so

7 that their range was limited. The maximum range was more or less five to

8 six kilometres. They could receive signals in that range. Or, in other

9 words, one could hear things over the Motorola, even if one was further

10 away, but you could not transmit your message to another person, because

11 they were quite weak.

12 Q. Well, at any rate, you were able to communicate over this channel

13 exclusively with the station where the HQ was; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. On that day - we're talking about the 17th of April, 1992 - you

16 were not on duty; is that correct?

17 A. On that day, the 17th of April, I was supposed to be on duty in

18 the evening. If the need arose, I was supposed to assist

19 Mr. Namik Suljic, and the assistance was more or less in terms of driving

20 the members of the reserve police force to wherever they had to go or to

21 take them from the local communes to the MUP building, and from there to

22 the bridge and to other facilities that were secured at the time.

23 Q. Well, you answered me regarding the 17th of April. Were you on

24 duty on the 16th of April?

25 A. I don't remember.

1 Q. We have the information that when a duty police officer who is on

2 duty finishes his service, that he is supposed to return his Motorola to

3 the station after the end of his shift.

4 A. Well, that's not exactly how it is. If you want me to tell you,

5 the Motorolas would just be handed over to the next person coming on. He

6 would simply change the battery.

7 Q. Well, that was more or less my next question, because we have the

8 information that the Motorolas could not be operated indefinitely, that

9 they had to be recharged. But I assume that now that you've explained

10 this to us, that would be sufficient, more or less.

11 Now I would like to go on to paragraph 31 of your statement.

12 Could you please have a look at it.

13 A. Yes, I can.

14 Q. In the transcript, I am interested in the part where you discuss

15 Mr. Slavko Glamocak, a member of the 4th Detachment, as you say, and you

16 indicated you learned later that he had gone to the telephone, to the post

17 office, and disconnected the lines. Can you please tell me -- you said

18 you learned that later. Can you please tell me: Who did you learn it

19 from?

20 A. Well, I would like to describe this case at some length, and how I

21 obtained this information about Mr. Glamocak being a member of the 4th

22 Detachment, and I know for a fact, and I am convinced, that he had gone to

23 the post office and disconnected the phone lines.

24 Q. Sir, the fact that Mr. Glamocak was a member of the 4th Detachment

25 is not in dispute, but see here: If you answer in detail to every

1 question that I ask you, I'm afraid that my questioning will take much

2 longer than the time that the Prosecution took. I'm asking you questions

3 that you will be able to answer in a very simple manner, and I assure you

4 that the Prosecution, if they think that they need to obtain any

5 clarification from you, they will be able to ask you questions, all those

6 questions that they deem to be necessary, in the course of the re-direct.

7 Right now I need the name of the person who told you that Slavko Glamocak

8 had disconnected the phone lines. That's the only thing I'm interested

9 in, the name of that person.

10 A. Let me tell you first of all that I have to clarify some things.

11 I came here to tell the truth, and let me answer the question now.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Witness A, just answer the questions put to

13 you by counsel. We have other witnesses yet to come, and as counsel

14 explained to you, the Prosecution will still have time to clarify

15 anything. So just answer the questions as they come. Do not explain

16 anything, unless counsel asks you to do so.

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Witness A, could you please tell me the name of the person who

19 told you that?

20 A. [redacted] His name

21 is Sakib Sahacic.

22 Q. Can you just tell me when did you obtain this information? When

23 did you hear that from [redacted]?

24 A. I don't remember when it was that we discussed this, but let me

25 tell you that it was after I was exchanged.

1 Q. [redacted], he did not work in the PTT, I mean

2 Mr. Sakib Sahacic?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Let's look very quickly at paragraph 34. You have it in front of

5 you. [redacted] Mihajlo Topolovac, Slavko Glamocak, Mladen Dordjic,

6 as it says here. I believe his name is actually Djordic, Vaso Antic, and

7 Slavko Nikolic are discussed here. All those [redacted] are of

8 Serb ethnic origin, from what I can gather from their names, the ones that

9 I just mentioned; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And all those [redacted] that I mentioned were in their

12 homes on that evening, at the night between the 16th and the 17th of

13 April; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And all those Serb [redacted] that I mentioned were

16 members of the 4th Detachment; is that correct?

17 A. I'm not sure about Slavko Nikolic.

18 Q. But you are sure about the others; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And it was no secret that they were members of the 4th Detachment;

21 is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you very much. I would now like to move on to paragraph

24 41.

25 A. I would like to ask for a break, if possible.

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous translation continues]... I don't know

2 if he's doing well.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. We shall take our break, and the legal

4 officer will let us know when it will be convenient to continue with the

5 proceedings. The Court will rise.

6 --- Break taken at 3.07 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 3.21 p.m.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: One very brief matter. Before we adjourn this

10 afternoon briefly before the next witness and the next episode of evidence

11 this afternoon, could I just have a minute to address you regarding

12 witnesses and the further progress this week? Thank you. Not now, but at

13 the end -- just prior to this -- or just upon the break of this witness.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Before we go on the break?

15 MR. DI FAZIO: That's right, yes, so that I can just raise some

16 housekeeping matters for the rest of the week. Thank you.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

18 We'll continue until 20 minutes before 4.00, because the video

19 conference link has to be arranged, and then we have to start at 4.00

20 sharp in order to have as much time as possible.

21 So you can proceed, Mr. Lazarevic.

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

23 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, we have a little more time in which we

24 should try to do as much as possible. I asked you to have a look at

25 paragraph 41 of your statement, which starts with the words "then they

1 shoved me into the car." In this respect, I would like to ask you a

2 question: Who shoved you into Josip Orsolic's car?

3 A. I was shoved into the car by Nebojsa Stankovic, nicknamed Cera,

4 and Slobodan Miljkovic, nicknamed Lugar.

5 Q. Thank you very much. After that you were taken in that car to the

6 police station. Now, I would like to know: When you arrived at the

7 police station, were the Serb police officers there?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The Serb police officers, did they wear berets on their heads,

10 dark-blue berets, greyish blue, as part of their uniform?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And all this happened in the duty police officer's room, the

13 events that you described in paragraph 41; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Sir, since you worked for many years as a police officer in the

16 Samac police station, I think that you are the witness who could provide

17 us with certain pieces of information which primarily have to do with the

18 layout of the rooms in the Bosanski Samac police station, and that's why I

19 would like us to look at some photographs, and then if you could assist me

20 about where certain offices or rooms are located.

21 MR. LAZAREVIC: At this moment I would like to have some

22 assistance from the usher. I would like to show to the witness --

23 evidence is P14. This is a set of photographs. And I need photograph

24 F53. And if I could just first take a look at that photograph and then to

25 be shown to the witness.

1 Your Honours, I'm not certain if this is the photograph that was

2 marked with a certain number. Maybe I should take a look again, just not

3 to make any mistakes. Oh, yes. This is a set of photographs with the

4 indicator what is on it, and we already made a ruling in this respect.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We shall use P14A. That's the one without any

6 labels on the photographs.

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. Yes.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the usher please get the photograph from the

9 witness. He will be given the -- yes. Can we get the photograph from the

10 witness. He should be shown the photograph from P14A. There's another

11 bundle of photographs.

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: And for the benefit of our clients and the Bench

13 also, maybe it would be best to place it on the ELMO so everyone can see

14 what we are talking about.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Sir, you've had a look at this photograph. Could you please tell

18 me: Which building is depicted on this photograph?

19 A. This is the MUP building in Samac.

20 Q. Thank you very much. On the basis of what we see on this

21 photograph, can we agree that it consists of the ground floor and another

22 storey, the first floor; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you please show me on this photograph where the duty police

25 officer's room or office is located. Please use the pointer that you

1 have, and you can point to that room on the ELMO.

2 A. First of all, let me tell you that this is the photograph taken

3 from the yard. So this is the internal part of the building, facing the

4 yard. The first window to the left --

5 Q. I don't want to interrupt you. I'm sorry. But when you're

6 talking about a window or something, could you please point at it to your

7 right on the ELMO, because we cannot see you if you're pointing on your

8 screen.

9 A. [Indicates]

10 Q. Yes. That's the way to do it.

11 A. Well, this is the window of the duty officer's room, and this is

12 also the window of the duty officer's room. So his room had two windows:

13 One, two. And it looked out onto the yard.

14 MR. LAZAREVIC: May the record reflect that the witness has shown

15 two windows on the ground floor, left from the entrance.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. The next two windows going to the left, next to the duty officer's

19 room, on which rooms were these two windows?

20 A. Well, I don't really remember that well. I think that the third

21 window here may have been the window on the office next door, or perhaps

22 this may also have been the window of the duty officer's room, but very

23 close to the wall. I really don't remember, but I'm absolutely sure that

24 the first two windows belonged to the duty officer's office, and this

25 third window here may have been the window on an office adjacent to the

1 duty officer's office, but they were divided by a wall.

2 Q. Thank you very much.

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: Now I would also ask again: I don't think I need

4 this photograph any more, but I would like photograph F43 to be shown to

5 the witness. It's P14A, F43.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Has the registry got P14A?

7 THE REGISTRAR: I couldn't find it in my trolley.

8 MR. LAZAREVIC: It is not a map, Your Honours. Actually, this is

9 -- P14A is a set of photographs, so I was just asking for photograph 43.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: It must be there. It's part of the exhibit that

11 we've already extracted --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It appears that maybe P14A is not available.

13 Is it available?

14 THE REGISTRAR: Can I use P14 instead?

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, Your Honours, maybe we could place some

16 piece of paper or something so --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. What I see from those which have labels, they

18 simply name the building; they don't name the actual offices. So it

19 really doesn't matter if he uses P14.

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, of course. I will not complain. I mean,

21 there was not any dispute that this is a photograph of the building of the

22 police station, so ...

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So he can use the same photograph, yes.

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Witness, can we agree that this is the same building, but this

1 photograph was taken from the street?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Well, if we look at the building from this side, from the street,

4 can you please show where the offices that were used by Dragan Lukac at

5 that time, who was the acting secretary, and where, according to your

6 testimony, Lugar took you.

7 A. This is the entrance, and the office had to be here, because it

8 also had the balcony. So this is the room. I'm not sure about this

9 window, whether it was a window in this room or not, but I'm absolutely

10 sure about this window here because one could go out onto the balcony from

11 that room.

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, may the record reflect that the

13 witness indicated the space with the balcony on the upper-right corner of

14 the house.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: You mean of the building.

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, of this building.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Now I would like you to show me where the police commander's

20 office was.

21 A. I believe that this may have been the one, here, because I only

22 can tell you the following: This was the office where the acting

23 secretary was, Lukac; then there was another room next to it; and another

24 room next to it. So that would be the third room from this one. So I'm

25 not quite sure which window it was. I believe that it may have been --

1 well, to tell you the truth, this building reminds me of some really nasty

2 events, so I really have to apologise. I'm not sure whether this is the

3 window or the other one. I only know the sequence of the offices. I

4 believe that it may be this one here.

5 Q. Thank you very much. I believe you when you say that this reminds

6 you of some really nasty events, but we really have to clear this up.

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous translation continues]... that the

8 witness indicated the third window on the upper floor of the building.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Counting from where?

10 MR. LAZAREVIC: Counting from the right, right side of the

11 building.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: And Your Honours, is it time for us to take a

14 break? Because --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I've been reminded that he wasn't sure -- the

16 witness wasn't sure, if you remember. He was pointing at the third or the

17 fourth.

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. It was understood from his answers, but he

19 indicated third or fourth. And I will not insist on that any more.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. I think we have to take a break, and the

21 witness, we'll continue with him tomorrow, in the afternoon, since we have

22 to take on the videolink, which is fixed. And can he be led out of the

23 courtroom.

24 We'll continue with your evidence tomorrow at 1415.

25 Mr. Di Fazio?

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. It's just a question of how to plan for the

2 rest of the week, and I'd seek some guidance from the Chamber. We have

3 Witness A, who will be taking up the earlier part of the afternoons, and

4 then the second part, of course, with the videolink. Now, apparently

5 Defence counsel have indicated they won't be too long with Witness A, but

6 we've still got some way to go.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: And even with -- and with the videolink, I would

9 think that that's going to take a substantial part of the remainder of the

10 week, with evidence in chief and then cross-examination, and then any

11 re-examination that may occur.

12 We've got two witnesses, two forthcoming witnesses, the

13 husband-and-wife team. I think the Chamber is aware of them. They're in

14 The Hague at the moment. They've finished any proofing matters and so on.

15 And if we keep them here, they're going to be here, in effect, for the

16 rest of the week on the off chance that they may give some evidence

17 towards the end of the week.

18 Now, we'll do that if the Chamber wishes, but the way I see things

19 going is that this witness and the videolink is going to take up a

20 substantial part of the remainder of the week, and then Friday, I believe,

21 is -- we're not sitting, unless I'm greatly mistaken.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. There's court maintenance.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. So can I have your approval to speak to

24 Victims and Witnesses Unit and send them back and bring them back at a

25 later time?

1 [The witness stands down]

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe it would be a good idea to have one witness

3 waiting.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Because, you see, the problem with the videolink is

6 it can only start at 4.00 p.m.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: It can't start earlier than that.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: I appreciate that. I understand that. I'm just

10 thinking, Your Honours, if you look at it this way, he's just started with

11 one Defence counsel, and I'm told estimates are ranging around over an

12 hour each. So three of them, then re-examination, and then --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will let you know after the break.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Okay. If -- thank you. I'd be grateful to you if

15 you could perhaps have an opportunity to confer and then give us some

16 direction.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: We will take a break now until 4.00 p.m.

20 --- Break taken at 3.42 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the witness please make the solemn declaration.

24 WITNESS: HASAN SUBASIC

25 [Witness testified via videolink]

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. The witness can sit down.

4 Yes, Mr. Weiner.

5 MR. WEINER: May I begin?

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

7 MR. WEINER: Okay. Thank you

8 Examined by Mr. Weiner:

9 Q. Good morning.

10 A. [No interpretation]

11 Q. Would you please identify yourself to the Court.

12 A. [No interpretation]

13 Q. And Mr. Subasic, could you tell us how old you are?

14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me. We have no interpretation.

15 A. I'm 33 years old.

16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Now we do.

17 MR. WEINER:

18 Q. And where were you born, sir?

19 A. I was born in Odzak, on the 4th of November, 1969.

20 Q. And when did you move to Bosanski Samac?

21 A. Sometime in 1971.

22 Q. So when you were about 2 years old. And up to April of 1992, did

23 you spend the rest of your life in Bosanski Samac?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Are you married?

1 A. Yes, I am married.

2 Q. And do you have any children?

3 A. I have two children.

4 Q. Of what ethnic group do you come from?

5 A. I'm a Muslim.

6 Q. And your wife, of what ethnic group is she?

7 A. My wife is Catholic.

8 Q. So she would be a Croatian; is that correct?

9 A. That's right.

10 Q. Now, in April of 1992, where were you living, sir?

11 A. In Bosanski Samac.

12 Q. And were you living in a home or an apartment, a house or an

13 apartment?

14 A. In an apartment.

15 Q. And who was living with you at the time?

16 A. My mother, my wife, and daughter.

17 Q. And sir, could you tell us what street, if you recall, the

18 apartment was on?

19 A. Edvarda Kardelja Street, apartment building 64.

20 Q. Now, did some relatives of yours also have homes within Bosanski

21 Samac?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And did they have two homes within a complex, or two homes on the

24 same piece of property?

25 A. Not within the same complex. A few blocks apart. A few blocks

1 further on from the apartment. They had two houses.

2 Q. Yes. It was not in the same complex where you lived, but were the

3 two houses that your family members had, were they on the same piece of

4 property, on the same piece of land, the two houses together, not the two

5 houses and your apartment.

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. And were those members of your mother's family?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And how long had your mother's family lived in Bosanski Samac?

10 A. Several generations.

11 Q. Now, sir, did you attend school in Bosanski Samac?

12 A. Yes, I did; the elementary and the secondary school.

13 Q. And did you study a specific vocation in the secondary school?

14 A. Yes, a trade. I became a welder.

15 Q. And upon graduation, did you go to work somewhere?

16 A. Yes, I did. I went to work in a company called Mebos.

17 Q. And where is that located, sir?

18 A. On the outskirts of Samac, Edvarda Kardelja Street as well.

19 Q. Now, did you serve in the military on a full-time basis in the

20 1980s?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. And where were you sent?

23 A. To Sarajevo.

24 Q. And what sort of unit did you work in or were you assigned to?

25 A. Anti-aircraft unit.

1 Q. And when did you complete that military service, Mr. Subasic?

2 A. I think it was in 1989.

3 Q. Now, after completing your military service, did you become part

4 of the TO, or did you join the Territorial Defence?

5 A. I did not.

6 Q. Did you own or possess a firearm while you lived in Bosanski

7 Samac, after your military years?

8 A. No, I did not.

9 Q. Did you have a hunting rifle?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you ever become a member of the new TO, which was commanded by

12 Alija Fitozovic?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you ever join any type of military unit prior to the war?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Mr. Subasic, were you a member of any political party?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Was your wife a member of any political party?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you some questions about the defendants in

21 this case. Having lived practically your whole life in Bosanski Samac --

22 A. Yes, I have.

23 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, we seem to be having some trouble with

24 the video. Should I hold?

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, I've been told by the AV to keep

1 going. We're okay now.

2 MR. WEINER:

3 Q. Sorry. We had some technical difficulties there for a minute with

4 the picture. So having lived your whole life in Bosanski Samac, I'm going

5 to ask you about a few people. Do you know a man by the name of Simo

6 Zaric?

7 A. Well, I know him by sight.

8 Q. How long have you known him by sight?

9 A. Some 20 years or more.

10 Q. And how did you come to know him by sight?

11 A. The son of his wife went to the elementary school with me; Denis

12 Topcagic.

13 Q. And were you good friends with Denis Topcagic?

14 A. I was.

15 Q. And did you ever go to his home to socialise when you were

16 children?

17 A. Sometimes.

18 Q. And when you went to his home, did you ever see Simo Zaric?

19 A. I don't remember seeing him.

20 Q. Do you know a man by the name of Miroslav Tadic?

21 A. I don't.

22 Q. A man who uses the nickname of Brko, or "the moustache"?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. How do you know Miroslav Tadic, or Brko?

25 A. He had a shop in Samac, and I frequently went there to shop.

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that the witness might

2 have said that he knew Miroslav Tadic. It was unclear. So perhaps that

3 question could be repeated.

4 MR. WEINER:

5 Q. Mr. Subasic, we didn't hear your first answer. The question was:

6 Do you -- or did you know a man by the name of Miroslav Tadic, nicknamed

7 Brko?

8 A. Yes, I knew him.

9 Q. And in addition to a store or some sort of grocery store, did he

10 have another business?

11 A. Afterwards, he had a cafe called AS.

12 Q. And had you ever visited the Cafe AS?

13 A. A few times perhaps.

14 Q. Finally, did you know a man by the name of Blagoje Simic,

15 Dr. Blagoje Simic?

16 A. Superficially, by sight only.

17 Q. Did you ever see him prior to April 17th, 1992, in Bosanski Samac?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. What about during the war? Did you ever see him?

20 A. Once, on one occasion, when I was imprisoned in the TO building.

21 I don't remember when exactly it was.

22 Q. And where was he when you were imprisoned in the TO building?

23 Where did you see him?

24 A. In the yard of the building.

25 Q. Are you referring to the courtyard?

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I'm not certain at this point, should

3 I -- should we try and have him attempt to identify the defendants here or

4 should we move on?

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Well, if it's possible, yes, because he can see the

6 courtroom.

7 Yes, it is possible.

8 MR. WEINER: Okay. Let's attempt that.

9 Q. If you could look around the courtroom, could you tell us if you

10 can see Simo Zaric, having known him for many years, or known him by sight

11 for many years?

12 A. Yes, I can see them.

13 Q. Okay. Could you tell us how -- could you tell us how they're

14 dressed? Let's start off with Simo Zaric.

15 A. He has a black jacket, red tie, as far as I can see from here, and

16 a white shirt.

17 Q. What about Miroslav Tadic?

18 A. A white shirt, black jacket, dark tie. I can't tell which colour

19 it is.

20 Q. And could you tell us something about on his face, or the colour

21 of his hair, or if there's anything on his face that's significant to you?

22 A. As far as I can see from here, he has grey hair, grey moustache.

23 Q. And what about Blagoje Simic?

24 A. I think that he's sitting between the two of them. He has a

25 beard, a white shirt. I can't tell which colour is his tie. And he's

1 somewhat bald.

2 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, may the record reflect that all three

3 defendants have been identified by this witness.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

5 MR. WEINER:

6 Q. Now, sir, you indicated you were a welder. In November of 1991,

7 could you tell us where you were working?

8 A. [No interpretation]

9 Q. And did you -- you were a welder at the time. Did you receive a

10 promotion or did they change your position in 1991?

11 A. [No interpretation]

12 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, we didn't receive any translation on

13 that.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We didn't get any translation.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear us now?

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

17 MR. WEINER: Yes.

18 Q. All right. I'll ask the question again. In November of 1991, did

19 you receive a promotion, or did you receive a new position at the Mebos

20 plant in Bosanski Samac?

21 A. Yes. I worked on the security that was stepped up in the Mebos

22 company.

23 Q. So you were no longer working as a welder there?

24 A. Yes. I did not.

25 Q. Now, sir, let's continue on into 1992. Between January and April,

1 mid-April of 1992, did you attend any political meetings or rallies?

2 A. Only once. I think it was March or February. After an accident

3 that happened in the Cafe Valentino, where two persons got killed, there

4 was a citizens' rally, and I attended it.

5 Q. Do you recall who spoke or what was said at that rally?

6 A. I don't remember.

7 Q. Did you attend any other rallies or any political meetings during

8 that same period in 1992?

9 A. On one occasion, when we were required to come to an area in front

10 of the Buducnost factory, but that was at the time when the war had

11 already broken out in Samac.

12 Q. Okay. So prior to the war, you didn't attend any political

13 meetings or rallies other than the citizens' meeting after the two people

14 were killed and the young lady was injured at the Valentino Cafe; is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. In 1992, were you involved in any citizen patrols or civil

18 defence?

19 A. No, I was not.

20 Q. Were you involved in the setting up or manning of any of the

21 barricades?

22 A. No, I was not.

23 Q. Well, in addition to the job that you had at the Mebos, were you

24 working at night? Did you have a side job, sir?

25 A. I did work the night shift at the Mebos factory, and sometimes I

1 would fix things, appliances, for people, for instance, the water heaters

2 and things like that.

3 Q. So basically, during that period you were involved in just raising

4 your family?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, sir, were you aware of a unit in Bosanski Samac known as the

7 4th Detachment?

8 A. Yes, I was.

9 Q. And did you know any of the members of that unit?

10 A. Many of them.

11 Q. And how did you know these people?

12 A. Well, quite a few of them were my friends. Samac is a small town,

13 and most people knew everybody else.

14 Q. Were any of the defendants members of the 4th Detachment, sir?

15 A. I believe they were.

16 Q. Which defendants were members of the 4th Detachment?

17 A. I know for sure that Simo Zaric and Miroslav Tadic were members,

18 and I don't know about Simic.

19 Q. All right. Was there any special cafe or location where members

20 of the 4th Detachment would meet and associate?

21 A. Mostly in Miroslav Tadic's cafe, which was called AS.

22 Q. Were you aware of the role of the 4th Detachment? What was it

23 supposed to do?

24 A. Well, I didn't know for sure what its role was. I heard from

25 those people that it was supposed to defend Samac, but I don't know

1 against whom.

2 Q. Did it protect all the citizens of Bosanski Samac?

3 A. No, it didn't.

4 Q. Which citizens, or citizens from which ethnic group were not

5 protected by the 4th Detachment?

6 A. Well, one could tell that from the fact who was imprisoned in

7 Bosanski Samac. That was mostly Muslims and Croats.

8 Q. Okay. Let's move on, sir. Let's move on to the night that the

9 war began, the early-morning hours of April 17th, approximately 1.00, 2.00

10 a.m., could you tell us where you were?

11 A. I was in my apartment.

12 Q. And did you hear anything at that time?

13 A. Well, I heard shooting from the town.

14 Q. Now, did you go out during those early-morning hours, around 1.00,

15 2.00, 3.00, or 4.00 a.m.?

16 A. No, but I got out around 6.00 or 6.30.

17 Q. All right. Later that morning - 6.00, 6.30, 7.00 - where did you

18 go when you went out?

19 A. I went to the house of my mother-in-law, to see what was

20 happening.

21 Q. And where did she live?

22 A. The old name was Pere Bosica Street, number 92.

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I believe we have some problems with

24 the transcript. What we heard from this witness, he said, "my old

25 mother," and here we have a translation "mother-in-law." So basically

1 this could maybe in further ... Well, I don't know. Some problems, maybe

2 identifying what place, what street or something.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner. Deal with that. Yes.

4 MR. WEINER:

5 Q. The person whose home you went to, was that your grandmother?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And she lived on Pere Bosica Street?

8 A. Yes. The house number was 92.

9 Q. And did you go there by vehicle or did you walk to the house?

10 A. I went there on foot.

11 Q. Were you carrying a weapon of any kind when you went there?

12 A. No, I did not.

13 Q. When you got there, what did you observe?

14 A. My neighbours were out in the street. We were not aware of what

15 was going on.

16 Q. Did you stay at your grandmother's home very long?

17 A. No, I did not. Perhaps half an hour or 45 minutes.

18 Q. Where did you go after you left your grandmother's home?

19 A. I went back to my apartment.

20 Q. And as you walked back to your apartment, did you observe

21 anything?

22 A. I observed quite a few things. I had to pass by the AS Cafe, and

23 I saw quite a few armed people in the cafe, and I knew quite a few of

24 them.

25 Q. What else did you see?

1 A. Could you please repeat your question?

2 Q. In addition to seeing the armed persons at the cafe AS, the armed

3 soldiers, did you see anything else on the way home?

4 A. I don't remember.

5 Q. Do you know a man by the name of Esad Dagovic?

6 A. Yes, I do. He is a very good friend of mine. We know each other

7 from childhood.

8 Q. Did you see Esad Dagovic that morning as you walked home?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And where did you see him?

11 A. In the Pere Bosica Street.

12 Q. Did he live on that street?

13 A. Yes, he lived on that street.

14 Q. And where was he in relation to his home?

15 A. Perhaps 20 or 30 metres from his home.

16 Q. Was he carrying a rifle or automatic weapon of any kind when you

17 saw him?

18 A. No. I didn't see anything, at least.

19 Q. Now, you eventually returned home. Did you stay there?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, later that day, on April 17th, either late morning or in the

22 afternoon, did something happen?

23 A. Yes. They came to my apartment. My apartment was searched. It

24 was in the late afternoon of the 17th of April.

25 Q. All right. Let's take it one step at a time. When you say

1 "they," are you referring to soldiers?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When did you first see the soldiers?

4 A. That morning when I went out, that was the first time that I saw

5 the soldiers.

6 Q. Now, while you were at home, did you see the soldiers from your

7 window?

8 A. Yes, I did see them from the window.

9 Q. Now, when you saw the soldiers from the window, were any of the

10 defendants with them?

11 A. Yes. I saw Miroslav Tadic and Simo Zaric.

12 Q. And what were they doing at the time? Were they walking? Were

13 they in a vehicle? Were they sitting on the ground? What were they

14 doing, the two defendants?

15 A. They were in a vehicle, going from apartment to apartment, from

16 one entrance to another, searching the apartments, looking for weapons.

17 Q. How many soldiers were with the defendants Miroslav Tadic and Simo

18 Zaric?

19 A. I don't remember, but I think between 10 and 15 soldiers.

20 Q. How were Miroslav Tadic and Simo Zaric dressed when you saw them?

21 A. They wore military uniforms.

22 Q. Were they armed?

23 A. Yes, they were armed.

24 Q. Now, could you hear from your window Miroslav Tadic or Simo Zaric

25 saying anything?

1 A. Yes. I heard them issue orders about which apartments were to be

2 entered.

3 Q. Did they say anything in relation to the guns?

4 A. Could you please elaborate, explain your question?

5 Q. Sorry. Did they say anything in relation to pointing of a gun or

6 pointing of one's guns?

7 A. Well, the rifles were pointed at the apartments where they went to

8 search.

9 Q. Now, did the soldiers, Miroslav Tadic and Simo Zaric eventually

10 stop at your apartment building?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And did they enter the apartment building?

13 A. Yes, they did.

14 Q. Could you tell the Court where they went after they entered the

15 apartment building, where they went and what they did?

16 A. First they searched the apartment belonging to the person by the

17 name of Dedic. I don't know his full name. I think that Miroslav Tadic

18 and Simo Zaric knew him quite well. So they searched his apartment. They

19 broke down the door, searched the apartment, and then they went on

20 searching other apartments.

21 Q. All right. Let's take this slowly. Miroslav Tadic and Simo Zaric

22 get out of the vehicle and enter your apartment building; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. How many soldiers entered the apartment building with those two

25 defendants?

1 A. I don't remember. Some five or six, but could be more as well. I

2 can't remember.

3 Q. Now, this person whose home was searched, whose apartment was

4 searched, was that on the first floor?

5 A. I think it was.

6 Q. And is that a person by the name of Dedo Halilovic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And while the soldiers were searching Dedo Halilovic's apartment,

9 did Simo Zaric or Miroslav Tadic make any statements about Mr. Halilovic?

10 A. Yes. They said he was a terrorist, that he was the head of the

11 SDA party, that he had a sniper, and later on they checked whether there

12 were any openings on the top of the building, looking for the openings.

13 Q. Did they make any remarks indicating that Mr. Halilovic was

14 involved in the resistance, or what they referred to as the resistance?

15 A. I didn't quite understand your question.

16 Q. Did Miroslav Tadic and Simo Zaric state that Mr. Halilovic was

17 involved with what they referred to as the resistance?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, did you know this Mr. Halilovic, sir?

20 A. Yes, very well.

21 Q. Was he a soldier?

22 A. No, he was not.

23 Q. Did you find those statements odd?

24 A. Yes, I did. There was simply no resistance in Samac whatsoever.

25 Q. And was this Mr. Halilovic any type of warrior or special forces

1 officer or terrorist?

2 A. No, he was not.

3 Q. Now, did these soldiers come to your apartment?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And did anyone speak with you when they came to your apartment?

6 A. Yes. Miroslav Tadic, Simo Zaric, and other soldiers. I don't

7 remember their names.

8 Q. Did they ask you about weapons?

9 A. They asked me whether I had weapons.

10 Q. And how did you answer?

11 A. That I didn't.

12 Q. Did they enter your apartment?

13 A. Yes, they did, and they searched it superficially. They didn't

14 break anything or make any damage.

15 Q. Did Miroslav Tadic and Simo Zaric enter your apartment with the

16 soldiers?

17 A. Yes, they did.

18 Q. How long were the soldiers and the defendants in your apartment?

19 A. Perhaps some 15 minutes.

20 Q. Now, where did they go after they left your apartment?

21 A. I think they went searching the other apartments, and then they

22 left the building, but I'm not quite sure.

23 Q. Were the apartments of persons of a certain ethnic group or groups

24 searched?

25 A. I think that it was only Muslim and Catholic apartments that were

1 searched.

2 Q. Did they search the roof?

3 A. They did.

4 Q. Before the soldiers left and before the two defendants left, did

5 they say anything to you in relation to Dedo Halilovic or anything else?

6 A. They said that we should watch out for the opening on the roof,

7 and should we hear or see Dedo, to let them know.

8 Q. How long had they been in the apartment building?

9 A. I don't remember. Perhaps 40 or 45 minutes.

10 Q. All right. Let's move on to the next week, from April 18th

11 through 24th. Do you recall what you did during those seven days?

12 A. I went back to my company, Mebos. I worked there as a

13 receptionist.

14 Q. Was the plant functioning?

15 A. The company was not functioning.

16 Q. Did employees from all the ethnic groups come to work?

17 A. Well, not really. Maybe just a couple of employees reported, but

18 that's it.

19 Q. How many hours did you work a day during that week?

20 A. Some days I worked up to 20 hours.

21 Q. Now, sir, were you serving also or working also in a capacity of

22 security while you were there?

23 A. Yes, that's what I did.

24 Q. Were you armed?

25 A. Yes. I had a pistol.

1 Q. Where did you get the pistol?

2 A. It was owned by the company.

3 Q. And did you use that pistol or carry it with you when you worked

4 security prior to April 17th?

5 A. No, never.

6 Q. Now, what was happening at the Mebos plant during that week while

7 you were working as a security officer, while you worked your regular job

8 as a security officer?

9 A. There was much looting going on. They came with tractors and

10 trailers and they would take out the goods manufactured in Mebos.

11 Q. Who was looting the goods at the Mebos plant?

12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters could not hear the witness.

13 MR. WEINER:

14 Q. Let me ask you the question again. Apparently the interpreters

15 could not hear your answer. Who was looting the property from the Mebos

16 plant?

17 A. Local Serbs.

18 Q. How were they taking the property back or away with them?

19 A. In tractors, small trucks called Tamic, in trailers.

20 Q. Why didn't you stop the looters from taking these goods?

21 A. All of them were armed. They had automatic rifles and military

22 uniforms.

23 Q. Did any of these people threaten you or bother you while you were

24 at the Mebos plant?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Just one question for clarification. When were you first assigned

2 a pistol from the Mebos company to use as a security officer there?

3 A. I believe it was in November of 1991, November or December. It

4 was a pistol that was used by many people. It went from one person to the

5 next one.

6 Q. So you would turn the pistol over to the person who would come in

7 on the next shift?

8 A. Yes, always.

9 Q. Now, during that week that you worked from the 18th to the 24th of

10 April, did someone always come in on the next shift?

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters couldn't hear the witness.

12 MR. WEINER:

13 Q. We couldn't hear your answer. The question was: When you worked

14 in April, between the 18th and the 24th of the month, did someone always

15 come in on the next shift to take the gun?

16 A. No.

17 Q. What would you do if someone didn't come to take the gun, take

18 custody of the gun?

19 A. Sometimes I would lock them in the drawer and sometimes I would

20 take it home with me when I went home for lunch.

21 Q. Okay. Let's move to the 24th. You go to work on April 24th, you

22 have a conversation with your supervisor?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Tell the Court what happens.

25 A. They sent me home, told me they would call me when they needed me,

1 and that simply there was no need for me to come to work.

2 Q. From what ethnic group did your supervisor belong?

3 A. I don't remember.

4 Q. Were there any other Muslim or Croat employees working there on

5 the 24th?

6 A. No.

7 Q. So did you go home that afternoon or that morning, on the 24th?

8 A. Yes. I went home.

9 Q. By the way, were you ever paid for that week's worth of work,

10 where you worked sometimes up to 20 hours a day?

11 A. No, they didn't pay me.

12 Q. Now, that afternoon, on the 24th of April, while you were at your

13 apartment, did something happen?

14 A. Yes. Sometime around 5.00 p.m. they came to my door. It was

15 Naser Cakar, escorted by four or five policemen. They searched my

16 apartment and took me for interrogation to the police station.

17 Q. Did they seize anything when they searched your apartment?

18 A. Yes, they did. It was electrical wiring for a water heater.

19 Q. And did they explain why they were searching it? Did they ask you

20 any questions about the electrical wire?

21 A. They asked stupid questions, like: Was this wire used to make

22 bombs?

23 Q. Did they tell you why you had to go to the police station?

24 A. To give a statement. That's why.

25 Q. Now, did they bring you to the police station in Bosanski Samac?

1 A. Yes, they did.

2 Q. And were you questioned by someone?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who questioned you?

5 A. Savo Cancarevic did.

6 Q. I'm going to read a section from your statement to move things

7 along a bit, and I'm going to ask you if this was said by him.

8 "At the SUP, I was interrogated by the commander of the police,

9 Savo Cancarevic. He was a Serb. He became a police commander when the

10 war broke out in Bosanski Samac. He asked me all kinds of questions, such

11 as whether I had any weapons, how many Serbs I had killed, how many

12 Serbian children I had slaughtered, and so on."

13 The statement I just read to you, is that a fair and accurate

14 account of the interrogation with Savo Cancarevic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How long --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner --

18 MR. WEINER: Yes.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the date and time when the statement was

20 recorded?

21 MR. WEINER: Sure. I'm sorry. That is from your statement of

22 April 25th and May 3rd of 1998.

23 Your Honour, just for the record, at different points, what I was

24 planning to do, to move things along, rather than spend such as an hour

25 detailing with the witness the beatings that occurred, what I was going to

1 do is just read from his statement and from the interviewing notes, the

2 recent interviewing notes, which have been supplied to Defence counsel,

3 and just ask this witness if those are fair and accurate. Otherwise we'll

4 spend another hour or two going over incident by incident.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think what you're proposing is better. You

6 can go ahead.

7 MR. WEINER: Okay. Thank you.

8 Q. Now, sir, were you eventually sent to the Territorial Defence

9 building across the street from the police station?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And when you got to the Territorial Defence building, could you

12 tell us what you saw?

13 A. In the small room, there were about 25 people imprisoned. I can't

14 tell the exact number. I don't know whether there were exactly 25 of them

15 there. All of them were beaten up, bloody.

16 Q. Did you know these people?

17 A. Yes. I knew almost all of them.

18 Q. Were these people soldiers or civilians?

19 A. Civilians.

20 Q. Were all these people from Bosanski Samac?

21 A. No, they were not. There were a couple of people who just

22 happened to pass through Samac.

23 Q. Were any of these people wearing military uniforms?

24 A. I don't remember. None of them had military uniform, but I

25 believe that two people wore police uniforms. I guess that night when the

1 war broke out in Samac, they were in duty, and this is how they were

2 arrested and imprisoned, wearing those police uniforms.

3 Q. Now, you were placed in a room with these people?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And were you under arrest at that time or were you just visiting?

6 A. Well, I think I was under arrest.

7 Q. Were you able to leave the Territorial Defence building?

8 A. No.

9 Q. All right. Let's continue on during that first night at the

10 Territorial Defence building. Around 10.00, does something happen?

11 A. Yes. Lugar and several of his cronies, Laki, Avram, people from

12 Serbia, came in and they started firing shots. They got in, and we had to

13 sing Chetnik songs.

14 Q. All right. What I would like to do now is read basically a

15 summary from your statement of 1998 and your most recent interview with

16 the Office of the Prosecutor, just last week, and I'll ask you at the end

17 if this is an accurate account. And what I'm going to do is read about

18 incidents over the next three days: The 24th, 25th, and 26th.

19 With reference to April 24th, 1992: That same evening I suddenly

20 heard a shot, and at the same time I heard a voice with a Serbian accent.

21 Shortly after the shot, Lugar entered the building, together with Avram

22 and Laki. Avram and Laki are nicknames, and I don't know these men's real

23 names. They were armed with automatic weapons. They were all drunk and

24 they ordered us to sing Chetnik songs. The witness did not know any of

25 these songs and did not want to sing them, but he had to do so. While

1 they were singing, the soldiers went around and beat up prisoners. The

2 witness recalls them hitting Grga Zubak, Sulejman Tihic, and Izet

3 Izetbegovic. Lugar would ask: Who was new? And he would beat the new

4 prisoners. That was the first time that this witness was beaten. This

5 witness was struck only a couple of times that night, and the beating was

6 not that bad. Hasan was shaken and could not believe that this was

7 happening. The beatings continued all night long. It would continue for

8 one half hour, then they would leave, but would return again. Hasan

9 recalls that on one occasion the prisoners had to stand and put their

10 heads down. A soldier would strike them on the back of the head and neck

11 with a long firearm silencer.

12 Mr. Subasic, is that a true and accurate account on what happened

13 on the evening of April 24th, 1992?

14 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour --

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

17 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, well, the basis of the objection is

18 the following: Although we are impressed with this new approach of our

19 learned friend Mr. Weiner to combine various statements, although we don't

20 know exactly which part of which statement he's making reference, we

21 strongly object to this, I would say, hybrid or synthesis of the witness

22 statements, because simply we cannot find many of these details that he is

23 trying to put to the witness. And bottom line of this approach is that

24 it's a kind of mixture of leading questions and some kind of attempts for

25 speculation on the part of the witness. Probably the proper way,

1 according to the well-established practice in these proceedings, might be

2 that our friend first of all will make a reference of exact page, of exact

3 statement, and then read it, put it to the witness, and then same

4 standards should be applied for the proofing notes or -- I don't know

5 how. Or if he cannot establish this way, he can proceed with the

6 examination-in-chief, with a series of questions. Otherwise we are

7 entering into the area which is absolutely unfair for the rights of our

8 clients, and furthermore, it can violate the standards of the fairness of

9 the trial. Yes. Thank you.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I fully agree with what

12 my colleague Mr. Pantelic has said, and I would just like to note two

13 other things. We here have only one statement from this witness, the

14 statement that was signed, 25th of April and the 3rd of May, 1998. And in

15 the first part of this quote, so to speak, I was able to follow partially

16 this statement, and then the Prosecutor continued reading on things that I

17 do not find in the statement. We were supplied with the notes and the

18 summary by the Prosecutor over the weekend. These are the notes in which

19 the witness describes what happened to him in the third person, and the

20 statement -- this statement is written in the first person. I don't know

21 whether there is any other statement that my colleague from the

22 Prosecution is referring to, or is he reading from the notes and in a way

23 interpreting them? If that is so, then I strenuously object to that

24 practice, because he is merely interpreting the words of the witness.

25 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous translation continues]... just one more

1 thing.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: -- witness summaries and proofing notes. This is

4 not the first time this problem appears. When we tried as Defence to use

5 proofing notes in cross-examination of Prosecution witnesses, the

6 Prosecution objected and they said these are not the words of the witness;

7 these are just our notes. This is what we heard, but maybe this is not

8 correct or something. So I am strongly opposing of using proofing notes

9 and the witness summaries in the examination-in-chief of a witness. It is

10 all right with the statement that we already have that was signed by the

11 witness, and things like that, but regarding witness summaries and

12 proofing notes, we oppose this.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

14 Mr. Weiner.

15 MR. WEINER: Yes.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: I just want to be sure where you are quoting from.

17 Was it the statement, the proofing notes? What are the documents?

18 MR. WEINER: From my own notes. What I did is I took the proofing

19 notes, from my own proofing notes, and the statement, and I put them all

20 together, rather than go from one to another. Now, we did this previously

21 with one of the protected witnesses, and this was all a result, all a

22 result, of Mr. Pantelic's suggestion that there is no need, that there is

23 no need, to discuss any of the incidents which occurred in the prisons

24 because they have no objection to it. They're agreeing to those things,

25 that those things occurred. Now, he did this again a week or two weeks

1 ago, saying again that they are not fighting that any of these incidents

2 occurred. So what we did, when Witness E testified, we read portions of

3 the statement to move things along. If you would like, I'd be happy to do

4 a direct exam and bring all these details out with the witness. We can

5 take it step by step. I thought that since time was limited, we could do

6 it this way. They opened the issue. We said fine. You're not objecting.

7 They -- Mr. Pantelic said, "We're not even going to cross-examine on these

8 issues." So I figure we can move things along very quickly. However, if

9 the Court would like, I'd be happy to do a direct exam and we'll talk

10 about day by day and go through each of these incidents. I've got no

11 problem with that. I'd be happy to do that.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic.

13 MR. PANTELIC: If I may, Your Honour, well, I can confirm that we

14 took our approach not to have an endless repetition of certain events, but

15 nevertheless it's a matter of fairness and, I would say, to some extent

16 diligence of the parties in these proceedings. Which brings me to another

17 issue: My learned friend should make exact quotes when he quotes the

18 statement of 1998, it should be ERN number, page number, et cetera. And

19 that's the end of story. And then he can say, "Well, now my understanding

20 is of your previous statement, et cetera, that certain events were

21 occurred with the presence of certain persons." That might be done, but

22 we have to clearly divide these issues, Your Honour. It cannot be mixed,

23 you know, in this manner, because otherwise it's not a basis for the

24 defendants. Thank you.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

1 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber is of the view that as long as the

2 Prosecution indicates where the evidence of the witness has been recorded,

3 whether it's in the proofing notes or in the statement, the Prosecution

4 can take this line of approach. The other point is: These are not

5 contentious matters, the beatings and the ill-treatment that the witness

6 went through, so what has been done so far will remain on record, and the

7 Trial Chamber would like to caution the Prosecution that it's only when it

8 comes to contentious matters that the Prosecution should lead the witness

9 in the normal matters. Otherwise, the objection is partly sustained, but

10 the record will remain as it is.

11 MR. WEINER: All right.

12 Q. Let me continue on. I'll read some from his 1998 statement:

13 "On the 25th of April, Lugar came with his people five or six

14 times to the TO building. He beat us every time he came. I was also

15 beaten by him. I could see that he was drunk again."

16 On the 26th of April --

17 A. If I may correct you. You said my statement from 1999, and my

18 statement is actually from 1998.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: The transcript shows 1998.

20 MR. WEINER: The transcript shows 1998. It might have been

21 translated to you as 1999. Either way, I apologise, but it is 1998.

22 Q. Let us continue:

23 "On the 26th of April, I saw for the first time one of the local

24 soldiers entering the TO building. This local Serb had joined the White

25 Eagles, which I could see by the insignia on his uniform. His name was

1 Nebojsa, last name unknown, having a nickname of Cera. I knew him from

2 before the war. He beat Omer Nalic and he put a bayonet through his

3 hand. He had a personal revenge against Omer Nalic because Omer Nalic had

4 once refused to hire him in his company. However, he was not only beating

5 Omer Nalic, but the others as well. Members of the White Eagles would

6 also come and take out prisoners, especially the wealthy ones. They would

7 take them to their homes and force them to give them money. Among those

8 taken out by the members of the White Eagles were two brothers Bicic,

9 Hasan and first name unknown, nicknamed Beca."

10 So far, sir, what I've read, is that a true and accurate account

11 of what happened between April 24th and April 26th, 1992?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Let me continue with one line, on page 2 of that 1998 statement,

14 and you're talking about Lugar, which is sometime between the 24th and

15 26th of April:

16 "He put a pistol in my mouth, and when he pulled it out again, he

17 broke two of my front teeth."

18 Did Lugar do that to you sometime between April 24th and April

19 26th, 1992?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. From the 24th -- I'm now reading from the Prosecutor's notes, page

22 2, last paragraph:

23 "From the 24th through the 25th, the men were beaten repeatedly by

24 paramilitaries from Serbia. They were beaten with guns, batons, wooden

25 bats, iron bars, a silencer, a chair/table leg, or whatever else could be

1 found. He describes his first beating on the 24th and having to

2 constantly sing Chetnik songs. He, and when I say he, I'm referring to

3 the witness, recalls details as to who was beaten on various days and the

4 positions they had to maintain as they were beaten. He recalls the cries

5 and screams of the beaten prisoners.

6 What I've read to you so far, sir, is that a true and accurate

7 account of what occurred on those dates, between April 24th and April

8 26th, 1992?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, his final statements concern the murder

11 of Dikan, which is -- where there's been already a great deal of

12 testimony. If the Court would like, I would read that information into

13 the record, or we could just move on for the sake of time, since we've

14 already had --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: I think we -- yes. We can move on. We have had

16 enough evidence on the matter of Dikan. Yes.

17 MR. WEINER:

18 Q. Now, sir, we're going to move past the murder of Dikan, because

19 we've already had a great deal of testimony on that issue or on that

20 matter. Now, let us move on.

21 After Dikan was murdered, did any other beatings occur on that

22 day?

23 A. Yes. Ibrahim Salkic was beaten. His nickname was Ibela.

24 Q. And who beat him?

25 A. Serbs, Lugar and his people.

1 Q. Now, did Lugar say anything to the rest of you concerning what he

2 was supposed to do with you?

3 A. Yes. He said that he had been given orders - I don't know by

4 whom - to kill all of us who were imprisoned there in the TO.

5 Q. Now, sir, later that same day, did something happen, later that

6 evening?

7 A. Yes. We were transferred to Brcko from the TO, to the barracks

8 there.

9 Q. Was that a military barracks, sir?

10 A. Yes. I said military barracks.

11 Q. How long were you and the others held in Brcko?

12 A. I think until the 1st of May.

13 Q. About how many people were transferred to the military barracks at

14 Brcko?

15 A. I don't remember. Some 30-odd people.

16 Q. Now, while at Brcko, were you or any of the other prisoners

17 interrogated?

18 A. Yes. Superficially by military policemen in Brcko.

19 Q. Now, where were you interrogated?

20 A. In one of the cells.

21 Q. All right. I'm going to read a statement from page 3 of your

22 recent interview with the Office of the Prosecutor:

23 "The witness, or I say he, the witness and some of the prisoners

24 were also interrogated at Brcko. He recalls being questioned there by

25 police. There were two guards standing at his sides, with batons, during

1 the interrogation, which lasted only 15 minutes. He was asked -- or the

2 witness was asked about his military history in Sarajevo in the 1980s. He

3 was not beaten during the questioning."

4 Mr. Subasic, is that a fair and accurate statement concerning your

5 interview at Brcko?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. While at Brcko, sir, did you meet the camp commander there?

8 A. At the time it was not a camp; it was simply a barracks of the

9 then still regular Yugoslav army.

10 Q. Were you held in a barracks room or were you held in a gaol cell

11 at Brcko?

12 A. In the cells.

13 Q. And while there, did you meet the camp commander?

14 A. Yes. He came. He introduced himself --

15 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honour. The witness just said that

16 it was not camp commander. It was not camp. And then in the same

17 question from my learned friend, namely, it's page 59, line 5, and

18 previously he asked also the same thing, the page 58, line 24. I don't

19 think that it's --

20 MR. WEINER: I've got no problem.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner. You can deal with that. Yes.

22 MR. WEINER:

23 Q. Did you meet the barracks commander?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. And did he say something to you and the other prisoners that were

1 being held there?

2 A. Yes. He said that they wouldn't beat us there any more, that he

3 knew that we were civilians and had not taken part in any combat.

4 Q. Now, while you were at Brcko, did you see any of the defendants

5 there?

6 A. Yes. I saw Simo Zaric.

7 Q. What was the defendant Simo Zaric doing when you saw him at Brcko?

8 A. I think that on that occasion he came to get three or four

9 prisoners to take them to Samac to be interviewed for television,

10 something like that.

11 Q. Do you know who the prisoners were who were brought back to Samac

12 to be interviewed by TV Novi Sad, or Serbian television?

13 A. I know for a fact that it was Sulejman Tihic, but I'm not a

14 hundred per cent sure about Omer Nalic, although I do believe that he went

15 as well.

16 Q. Did you ever have the opportunity to speak with Sulejman Tihic at

17 Brcko after this television programme?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. And what did he tell you about the television programme?

20 A. I can't remember exactly. I know that he was taken to get a bath,

21 and he put on clean clothes so that he would appear as though nothing had

22 happened to him, and that he had to give the answers that they required

23 him to give.

24 Q. All right. Thank you. Did you speak with any of the guards? Did

25 you or the other prisoners have the opportunity to speak with any of the

1 guards at Brcko?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And were these guards JNA soldiers?

4 A. They were.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we take a 20-minute break, Mr. Weiner? We shall

6 take a 20-minute break and resume our proceedings at 1750 hours.

7 --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 5.51 p.m.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. Since it is a new moment in our

11 proceedings with this kind of testimony, well, I think whether it's

12 appropriate to have for the record from Madam Registrar in Salt Lake City

13 to know in fact who is present there in the room where the testimony

14 is going, just for the record, to know whether there are some official

15 persons or maybe friends or... Because we are not physically there.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: I see.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Pantelic, present in the room are the witness,

18 myself, representing the registrar [inaudible] -- something goes wrong

19 with the videolink, he gives us assistance. There's no one else present

20 in the room.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. We wish you all the best --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: And this is a public hearing. So let's proceed,

23 Mr. Weiner, please.

24 MR. WEINER:

25 Q. Mr. Subasic, let us return to Brcko. When we left, I had asked

1 you if, while at Brcko, you had spoken to some of the guards, and you

2 indicated yes. And the persons who guarded the prisoners at Brcko, were

3 those JNA soldiers?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And did they tell you -- or did they have any discussion with you

6 in relation to Lugar and his paramilitaries?

7 A. Yes. They said that Lugar and his people came to Brcko several

8 times, but the soldiers did not let them go in.

9 Q. And you heard this right from the soldiers or the guards?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, from Brcko, where did you go next? You stayed in Brcko maybe

12 a week or less. Where did you go next?

13 A. We were transferred to military barracks in Bijeljina.

14 Q. Now, how long were you in Bijeljina?

15 A. Until the 13th of May, 1992.

16 Q. While in Bijeljina, were the prisoners beaten?

17 A. Well, yes, but not the way we were beaten in Samac.

18 Q. How was it different, sir?

19 A. In Bijeljina, they would hit us with fists, whereas in Samac they

20 used anything, any kind of objects to hit us with.

21 Q. Now, you indicated you were in Bijeljina until the 13th of May; is

22 that correct, May 1992?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Where did you go on May 13th?

25 A. We were returned to Samac.

1 Q. And how were you returned to Samac?

2 A. In a bus. We were returned to the gym of the secondary school.

3 Q. Were there any guards on the bus that went from Bijeljina and

4 Samac?

5 A. There were guards, and they were relieved some way half through

6 our trip from Bijeljina to Samac.

7 Q. These guards that went from Bijeljina to halfway along the

8 roadway, did any of them harm or beat the prisoners on that bus?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Now, the guards that took over for the last half of the trip, did

11 they harm or beat any of the prisoners between that last half of the trip

12 to Bosanski Samac?

13 A. Not en route; no, they did not.

14 Q. Where did you eventually arrive in Bosanski Samac?

15 A. To the area in front of the secondary school.

16 Q. What happened when the buses arrived at the high school or

17 secondary school?

18 A. They took us out one by one. We got off the bus. And as we would

19 get off the bus, they would start hitting us.

20 Q. Who would start hitting you?

21 A. Local Serbs.

22 Q. What were they hitting you with?

23 A. Rifles, hands, and feet.

24 Q. Were you struck?

25 A. Yes, I was. Everybody was. All of us prisoners.

1 Q. Once they got --

2 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Excuse me. When the witness is talking about

3 local Serbs, were they persons he knew already before, or what is he

4 referring to? It would be interesting to know.

5 MR. WEINER:

6 Q. Mr. Subasic, did you hear the Judge's question?

7 A. I didn't quite hear the question.

8 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Perhaps you can repeat.

9 MR. WEINER:

10 Q. I'll repeat it for His Honour. His question to you was: When you

11 stated that you were beaten by local Serbs, were you referring to persons

12 that you knew, I assume, who you had seen before, or what did you mean

13 when you said you were beaten by local Serbs? Could you please answer the

14 Judge's question.

15 A. I knew those people. I don't know their names, but I know that

16 they were local Serbs from surrounding villages, the villages surrounding

17 Samac. However, I don't know their names.

18 Q. Thank you. After you got off the bus and were beaten, where were

19 you taken?

20 A. To the gym of the secondary school.

21 Q. Now, once you got inside of the gym at the secondary school, what,

22 if anything, happened?

23 A. When we got in, we were also beaten by the guards, and also by the

24 guards who had beaten us outside.

25 Q. What were you beaten with while inside of the gym?

1 A. With the weapons that they had and with the hands and the feet.

2 Q. When you say "with the weapons that they had," could you give us

3 any idea of some of the instruments that they used to beat you?

4 A. They were mostly armed with Kalashnikovs.

5 Q. So when you say they beat you with the weapons that they had, did

6 they hit you with basically the butt of the rifle? Is that what you're

7 indicating?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. Did they feed you? Did you get any food or drink that

10 night at the high school?

11 A. I don't remember, but I don't think so.

12 Q. Sorry. You don't think so. How long did you remain at the high

13 school or secondary school?

14 A. Only that day and the night following that day, and the next day

15 we were transferred to the gym of the elementary school.

16 Q. And where was the elementary school in relation to the high school

17 or secondary school?

18 A. Across the road, about a hundred metres away.

19 Q. And when you got to the elementary school, where did they place

20 you inside of the elementary school?

21 A. In the gym.

22 Q. Now, on that same day, which would be May 14th, 1992, that you

23 were transferred to the elementary school, the elementary or primary

24 school, what happened at the high school or secondary school? Did

25 something happen there? Did someone replace you?

1 A. We heard from the guards, and we learned later that this was

2 indeed the truth: Croats had been rounded up and put on trucks. It was

3 some kind of a raid. Men, women, and the elderly were brought into the

4 secondary school.

5 Q. Were children brought there too?

6 A. I think so too. I didn't see any, but I think they were brought

7 in.

8 Q. How many people were brought to the high school or secondary

9 school?

10 A. I didn't see it, but I heard that there were 500 of them.

11 Q. What percentage of these 500 were Croats?

12 A. 99.9 per cent.

13 Q. Were you told why these people were sent to the high school?

14 A. It was stated that they were in some kind of isolation.

15 Q. Do you recall a statement concerning the need for their homes?

16 Was there any discussion concerning that their homes were needed?

17 A. Later on, after that, their houses were looted, their property was

18 taken away and stolen, some of their houses were later on inhabited by

19 some other people.

20 Q. When these Croatian villagers or residents of the municipality of

21 Bosanski Samac were removed from their homes, people of what ethnic group

22 looted their homes?

23 A. Serbs.

24 Q. You indicated that people inhabited their homes after they were

25 removed. People of what ethnic group inhabited their homes?

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I seek clarification, because I

3 believe that these questions are classic examples of leading questions,

4 because answers are contained in the questions, and because the witness

5 never did say anything about when the houses were inhabited by Serbs,

6 because the chronology is not quite clear in the questions and answers.

7 He was in the prison at the time, and now it is put to him through this

8 question that he knew when it was that these people moved in or moved out

9 from the houses. And I would just like to clarify whether the witness has

10 any knowledge about these facts and where this knowledge comes from,

11 because it's obviously hearsay, secondhand information. Where does this

12 information come from?

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner. You should be able to clear that

14 with the witness.

15 MR. WEINER: I'll be able to clarify it. No problem.

16 Q. Sir, let's take this one step at a time. Let me ask you about

17 certain facts, and then we'll get to your basis of knowledge, how you know

18 these facts. Let's start off with the homes. People of what ethnic group

19 forced these Croatian villagers out of their homes?

20 A. Serbs.

21 Q. Why did the Serbs want these homes to be empty or vacant?

22 A. Probably to be able to put their refugees in.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic?

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have still having the same

25 questions and the same answers. We don't know where does this witness

1 know this, on what basis he knows that, because we know that the witness

2 couldn't see this because he was in prison at the time. So if we are to

3 take this one step at a time, the witness should be asked how he knows

4 that, because now we're in the same situation we were just a moment ago.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner. Perhaps you should establish the

6 basis of knowledge for the witness.

7 MR. WEINER: Yes. Your Honour, I just previously said I was going

8 to bring the facts out, then get to the basis of knowledge, but I'd be

9 happy to do it the other way around.

10 Q. While you were held at the primary school, did you have the

11 opportunity, you and the other prisoners, to speak to the guards?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you know any of these guards from the town of Bosanski Samac?

14 A. Yes, quite a few of them.

15 Q. And would they ever discuss what was happening in Samac with the

16 prisoners?

17 A. Sometimes, yes.

18 Q. Who else did you speak with that provided you with information

19 about what was happening in Samac?

20 A. Free civilians or family members, mothers, wives, sisters, they

21 remained in Samac and they were free, so to speak.

22 Q. Was visitation allowed at the primary school?

23 A. They were not allowed by the police chiefs, but some good guards

24 would allow somebody in at their own risk.

25 Q. And were any of your family members ever allowed in to meet with

1 you and speak with you at the primary school?

2 A. My mother was allowed in several times.

3 Q. And not only did she speak with you; were they allowed to bring

4 you any food?

5 A. Sometimes.

6 Q. Now, did other prisoners also receive visits from their relatives?

7 A. Yes, sometimes.

8 Q. And as a result of these visits, were you able to learn what was

9 happening in Bosanski Samac?

10 A. Yes, a lot.

11 Q. And in addition to these visitors that you and the other prisoners

12 had, did you also receive information from the guards as to what was

13 happening in Bosanski Samac?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, did the guards and your visitors, your family visitors, ever

16 discuss the Croats who were rounded up and brought to the high school?

17 A. Yes. They spoke about how they were put in isolation, they were

18 forced to do forced labour.

19 Q. And did they tell you why these people had to vacate their homes,

20 why these Croats had to leave their homes?

21 A. They didn't say anything, but later on, with time, it turned out

22 that Serbian refugees were settled in their houses. This is a fact which

23 is true, and that's how it is to this day.

24 Q. Now, you mentioned isolation. Did the guards have names for the

25 primary school and the high school?

1 A. They called the secondary school "the isolation", and the

2 elementary school was -- they would say that the extremists were put in

3 the elementary school, things like that. I don't know why, though.

4 Q. When the guards referred to the high school or secondary school as

5 "the isolation", where were you being held?

6 A. In the elementary school.

7 Q. So the high school was referred to "the isolation" after the

8 Croats were rounded up and placed there?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, the guards that told you this, or called these locations

11 these names, were they assigned to only one school or to both schools?

12 A. They would change places. They would be on guard duty in the

13 secondary school, in the elementary school, in the TO, and in the SUP

14 building.

15 Q. Now, could the witness be shown Exhibit P14A, photographs 48 and

16 49, please.

17 Sir, could you tell us what is depicted in that photograph, number

18 48?

19 A. This is the picture of the secondary school, and you could see the

20 elementary school in the back, in the background.

21 Q. So the one in the foreground is the secondary school, the one with

22 the black windows. They look like long black windows in front.

23 A. Yes, that's what I said. That's the secondary school.

24 Q. And the one which is in the middle, where you can only see a

25 portion of the building, that is the --

1 A. That's the building of -- that's the gym of the elementary

2 school. That's the building that you see in the background.

3 Q. Okay. Thank you.

4 MR. WEINER: Could the witness be shown the next photograph,

5 number 49, please.

6 Q. Sir, could you tell us what that building is?

7 A. Here we see the gym of the elementary school, and we also see the

8 burnt-down building of the elementary school.

9 Q. So the picture in the foreground is the elementary school. What

10 about those sheds, it looks like, to the left of the elementary school?

11 Is that part of the gym? All the way down at the end of the building.

12 A. I don't know if this is what you're talking about, but that's the

13 burnt-down building of the elementary school. But as I said, I'm not sure

14 what you're referring to.

15 Q. All right. We'll move on. Thank you very much.

16 MR. WEINER: Thank you for showing the photographs.

17 Q. Let's return to the primary school. Were prisoners ever beaten at

18 the primary school?

19 A. Every day, several times.

20 Q. Did a day go by while you were at the primary school where

21 beatings did not occur?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you know a man by the name of Stevan Todorovic?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Did you ever see him at the primary school?

1 A. Yes, on several occasions.

2 Q. How often would he come to the primary school?

3 A. Perhaps once a week.

4 Q. And what would happen when he came to the primary school?

5 A. He would always beat up several of us prisoners.

6 Q. Would he do that in groups or separately? How would he do it?

7 A. Well, when he got in, we had to get up. We slept next to the

8 walls around the gym. And he would go from one to another and beat us.

9 He would beat one person several times, another person just once. He

10 never came in on his own; he had his bodyguards, who were always with him.

11 Q. Were most of the prisoners beaten by him, or were all of the

12 prisoners beaten?

13 A. More or less all of them were beaten by him. He beat some people

14 more severely, others less severely, but practically all of us were beaten

15 by him.

16 Q. Now, in June of 1992, there was an incident where your ribs were

17 broken, where you had three ribs broken. Could you tell the Court what

18 happened?

19 A. Several soldiers had come. I didn't know them. They beat me up.

20 They ordered me to kneel and to stretch out my arms above my head. And

21 one of them ran up to me and kicked me with his military boot in my

22 right-hand side, breaking my ribs, three of my ribs.

23 Q. All right. Where did this occur? Where in the primary school did

24 this occur?

25 A. In the middle of the gym.

1 Q. And when they arrived, did you have to sing songs?

2 A. Yes, we had to sing Chetnik songs almost all the time.

3 Q. Now, you said you had to kneel and somehow stretch your arms out?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you please demonstrate so we could see here how you had to

6 stretch your arms out before they attacked you at your sides?

7 A. I had to kneel and stretch out my arms like that.

8 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, may the record reflect that he indicated

9 he had to kneel and he stretched both arms out at a -- I'd say about a

10 hundred-degree angle between his chest and his head.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

12 MR. WEINER:

13 Q. Now, while you had your arms stretched out, how many people

14 attacked you from the sides?

15 A. Six.

16 Q. And you said that one of them ran to you and kicked you in the

17 ribs?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And what was he wearing on his feet when he kicked you?

20 A. Military-style boots.

21 Q. And as a result, how many of your ribs were broken?

22 A. Three.

23 Q. Also during the summer, was there another incident involving your

24 teeth?

25 A. Yes. One night soldiers came, and they entered the room. I don't

1 know how many there were, but more than five. They beat people up, taking

2 people out one by one and beating them. Four people held that person down

3 and then they pulled out his teeth with pliers. The rest of us that

4 remained in the gym, 90 or so teeth were pulled from our mouths.

5 Q. Were any of your teeth pulled?

6 A. Two.

7 Q. Were any others damaged?

8 A. Yes. When that person put the pliers into our mouths to pull out

9 one tooth, they would also damage the two adjacent teeth, without actually

10 pulling them out.

11 Q. I'd like to discuss a few more incidents, or just one more

12 incident at the primary school?

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, these are not contentious issues. It's

14 the details of the beatings and the ill-treatment. Yes. Why don't we

15 move faster, then.

16 MR. WEINER: Okay. One last one.

17 Q. Did you ever have to kneel on a daily basis while at the primary

18 school?

19 A. Yes. On one occasion we had to kneel for 24 hours.

20 Q. And in which direction did you face while you kneeled for 24

21 hours?

22 A. Facing the wall.

23 Q. Did the guards say anything to you as you kneeled facing the wall

24 during those 24 hours?

25 A. Some would come in, and they would laugh at us. They would say,

1 "Oh, I'm sorry. We didn't know you were praying."

2 Q. All right. Let us move on. The prisoners, these prisoners who

3 were beaten at the primary school, or the prisoners at the primary school,

4 of what ethnic group did they belong?

5 A. Muslims and Croats.

6 Q. Were these civilians or soldiers?

7 A. Civilians.

8 Q. I'd like to show you one last photograph, also P14A, photograph

9 59.

10 MR. WEINER: Actually, it might be better if he could point to

11 certain things on that photograph instead of putting it on the ELMO. It's

12 probably easier if he just points to it, if they can do that from the

13 angle.

14 Could he hold that up for the camera, please? Could he put it in

15 front of him, the witness?

16 Q. Could you tell us what that is, what's depicted in that

17 photograph?

18 A. The gym in the elementary school.

19 Q. Now, while you lived in that elementary school during the summer

20 of 1992, did you usually stay in one place or location in that gym?

21 A. Yes, kind of.

22 Q. Can you see that spot in that photograph?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Please show the Court.

25 A. This here.

1 Q. So directly under the backboard of the basketball hoop, or a

2 little bit to the right of it as you're facing the photograph?

3 A. Yes. Not directly underneath it, but to the right.

4 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much.

5 While you were being held at the primary school, you said you

6 spoke to your family. What was your mother doing at that time? We're

7 talking about during the summer of 1992.

8 A. She had to go and do forced labour.

9 Q. Where did they send her?

10 A. She went to the company called Tekstilac.

11 Q. Was she paid for her work?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Your uncle, what was your uncle doing?

14 A. My uncle went to dig trenches and perform many other tasks.

15 Q. Did your uncle have any children?

16 A. He had a son.

17 Q. And that was Dzevad?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did your uncle and Dzevad both dig trenches?

20 A. They did.

21 Q. And was that along the front battle lines, or the front of the

22 battle lines?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did they want to dig trenches along the front?

25 A. No, they did not want to; they had to.

1 Q. Did something happen to your cousin Dzevad while he was digging

2 trenches along the front lines?

3 A. He was killed there.

4 Q. Were either one of them ever paid for their labour?

5 A. No, they were not, as far as I know.

6 Q. Let us move on. Did you ever see --

7 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Excuse me.

8 MR. WEINER: I'm sorry.

9 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Excuse me. When you asked: Did something happen

10 to your cousin Dzevad while he was digging trenches along the front line?

11 Answer: He was killed there. But it's not clear who killed him.

12 MR. WEINER:

13 Q. Mr. Subasic, were you able to hear the Judge's question?

14 A. Yes, I heard it. I don't know if the question was addressed to

15 me. I don't know who killed him. I wasn't present. But he was killed

16 there. That's a fact.

17 Q. Did one of the soldiers kill him or was he killed during -- was

18 there fighting going on at the time? Were bullets flying? Were bombs or

19 mortar shells coming down?

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I don't know --

21 A. I don't know. I wasn't present.

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: The witness answered that he wasn't present.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner. The witness doesn't know. He was

24 not present.

25 MR. WEINER:

1 Q. How old was your cousin Dzevad that was killed?

2 A. 18.

3 Q. Now --

4 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Weiner. I wonder whether the

5 witness could tell us whether he knows whether the young man's father, who

6 was also digging the trenches, witnessed his son's death.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he was there.

8 JUDGE WILLIAMS: And secondly, did you ever talk to the father

9 about this at some point when you were able to talk to one another?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. We talked about that. My

11 uncle lives with me here now.

12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

13 MR. WEINER:

14 Q. Where was your uncle when Dzevad died? Where was he in relation

15 to Dzevad?

16 A. According to him, he was there, right next to him, and my cousin

17 died on his arms.

18 Q. Was trench-digging dangerous along the front lines?

19 A. It was.

20 Q. Let us move on, returning to the primary school, or the elementary

21 school, whatever you'd like to call it. Did you ever see any of the

22 defendants at the elementary or primary school?

23 A. I did.

24 Q. Who did you see of the defendants at that school during the summer

25 of 1992?

1 A. Miroslav Tadic.

2 Q. How many times did you see Miroslav Tadic at the primary school

3 during the summer of 1992?

4 A. I don't remember exactly how many times, but every time there was

5 an exchange he was there.

6 Q. Would he come alone or would he come with others?

7 A. He came escorted by the Serbian Red Cross.

8 Q. Now, when you say "the Serbian Red Cross," is that the local Red

9 Cross from Bosanski Samac?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And how did you know that they were the Serbian Red Cross from

12 Bosanski Samac?

13 A. They had bands with red crosses on their arms.

14 Q. Now, when Miroslav Tadic would come, or when he came in the summer

15 of 1992, did he speak to the prisoners?

16 A. I think he did, sometimes, but mostly he came to read out the list

17 of prisoners that were to be exchanged.

18 Q. Well, the first time that he came, did he state what his position

19 was in relation to the exchanges?

20 A. Yes. He called us Ustashas, balijas.

21 Q. My question is not what he called you, but did he say what his

22 position was in relation to the exchanges? Did he say he worked on the

23 exchanges? Did he say he assisted? Did he say he was in charge of the

24 exchanges? What did he say his position was in relation to the exchange

25 process?

1 A. He said he was in charge of exchanges, and he read out the names

2 of the people who were on the list.

3 Q. Now, you indicated that he would also call the prisoners names,

4 Ustashas and balijas. When did that occur?

5 A. Also there at the elementary school.

6 Q. Now, each time that he came, did he read out names from the list,

7 from these lists of persons to be exchanged?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And did he always come with Red Cross officials, local Serbian Red

10 Cross officials?

11 A. I think he did.

12 Q. Now, on those occasions when Miroslav Tadic visited the primary

13 school, how did the prisoners appear? What did you guys -- what did the

14 prisoners look like?

15 A. We were all beaten up, dirty. We had nowhere to take a bath. We

16 were all blue and black. We had blood on our faces, on our clothes. We

17 had lost a lot of weight.

18 Q. On those visits, did Miroslav Tadic ever inquire as to your

19 physical condition, either yours or the other prisoners'?

20 A. No, never.

21 Q. Did he ever inquire as to the living conditions at the primary

22 school?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did he ever inquire as to the health of any of the prisoners?

25 A. As far as I remember, no.

1 Q. These individuals who came from the Red Cross, the local Serbian

2 Red Cross, did they ever make any of those three inquiries as to your

3 health, the physical condition, or the living conditions there?

4 A. No, never.

5 Q. Did the local Red Cross ever bring any food packages to the

6 prisoners?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did they bring any clothing?

9 A. Never.

10 Q. Any bedding, meaning pillows, sheets, mattresses?

11 A. Never. Nothing.

12 Q. What about medicine and bandages? Did the local Red Cross ever

13 supply any of that?

14 A. The local Red Cross never brought anything, ever.

15 Q. Did the local Red Cross ever pass any letters between the

16 prisoners and their families?

17 A. No, it did not.

18 Q. Did you ever receive any visits from the International Red

19 Crescent Society while at the primary school?

20 A. No, not at the elementary school.

21 Q. Now --

22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Weiner, this is a question for yourself. You

23 mention the International Red Crescent Society. Do I take it that you

24 meant that on purpose? And also you meant not to mention the

25 International Committee of the Red Cross on purpose, or something

1 different?

2 MR. WEINER: Something different. Just in case there's any

3 confusion:

4 Q. Did the International Red Cross, or the International Committee of

5 the Red Cross, ever visit you at the primary school?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Okay. Now, you indicated that Miroslav Tadic came and read out

8 certain lists of prisoners to be exchanged. After these lists were read

9 by Miroslav Tadic, what did he do?

10 A. He would go back. I don't know where to, but I know that after

11 that, the people whose names had been called out to be exchanged would

12 always be beaten.

13 Q. So after the names of the prisoners were called out, the prisoners

14 would then be beaten?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Would they usually be placed on buses and exchanged immediately

17 thereafter or not, or did it vary from situation to situation?

18 A. Well, it varied from time to time.

19 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Excuse me. I have a question here. Your

20 question was on page 82, line 4: "So after the names of the prisoners

21 were called out, the prisoners would then be beaten?" And the answer is

22 yes. But I would be interested in who was those who beat them.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The guards.

24 MR. WEINER:

25 Q. So they would be beaten basically -- I just want to get this

1 right, get this right for the transcript. They would be beaten basically

2 prior to being exchanged, kind of as a final beating, if you want to call

3 it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, since we're speaking of Miroslav Tadic: While you were at

6 the primary school, did you first hear rumours, any rumours about Miroslav

7 Tadic, while at the primary school?

8 A. I heard that some members of our families - wives, sisters,

9 mothers - went to see him, to see whether he could get any of us

10 exchanged, and he asked them --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.

12 A. They asked him how much that would cost and he would give them the

13 prices. I know that because my mother went to see him and to ask him

14 whether he could get me out of the prison and get my wife, myself, and my

15 child exchanged. And he said that would be no problem and would cost 400

16 German marks per person.

17 MR. WEINER:

18 Q. So to exchange you, your wife, and your daughter, Miroslav Tadic

19 wanted a total of 1.200 D marks?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, was this during the summer of 1992?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And did your mother know Miroslav Tadic prior to her going to

24 bribe him?

25 A. Very well.

1 Q. Do you know where she went, where she met with him?

2 A. I don't know exactly where his office was. I think it was in the

3 vicinity of the pensioners' hall, but I'm not quite sure.

4 Q. Did your mother pay him the 1.200 D mark to get you three

5 released?

6 A. She didn't pay him because she didn't have any money.

7 Q. Was there also an issue in relation to a guarantee if the money

8 was paid?

9 A. Yes. He told her that it didn't depend solely on him, that there

10 were other people who had a say in this.

11 Q. So did your mother ever give Miroslav Tadic the 1.200 D-mark bribe

12 that he wanted to have the three of you released?

13 A. No, she did not.

14 Q. And did you remain in the primary school after that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. One last matter in relation to the primary school: While you were

17 being held there during the summer of 1992, were you ever interrogated?

18 A. Yes, I was, once. I was taken from the elementary school to the

19 SUP building, where I gave a statement to a person -- to an inspector who

20 I think was called Milos Savic.

21 Q. All right. So you were brought to the SUP. When you were brought

22 to the SUP, what was your physical condition at that time?

23 A. All beaten up, black and blue, bloody, dirty, skinny.

24 Q. Now, what I'd like to do is once again read to you, so we can move

25 along on this, on pages 3 and 4 of your most recent statement and ask you

1 if this is true:

2 "While being held at the primary school, the witness was

3 transported to the SUP to be questioned by Milos Savic. Savic had

4 questioned other prisoners, so the witness had some idea as to what would

5 be asked. He was asked where the defendant was when the war started and

6 on the days that followed. He asked if the witness had a gun. He, Savic,

7 said that he knew everything apparently so you would be candid. The

8 witness was weak, hungry, and tired during the interview. He was beaten

9 recently, he was bruised. At the end of the interview, the witness was

10 given a written statement. He was told to sign it, and did so without

11 reading it. He had no idea what it says."

12 Is that an accurate portrayal of the interview that you had with

13 Milos Savic in the summer of 1992?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And did you ever learn what was in that statement, the information

16 that was contained in that statement?

17 A. I did not.

18 Q. Now, let's move on. Sometime at the end of the summer, were you

19 moved from the primary school?

20 A. Yes. We were transferred to the TO building.

21 Q. Now, what was the TO rooms like when you got back?

22 A. When we got there, we found other imprisoned people from Samac,

23 both Muslims and Catholics. There were perhaps some 60 of them, or more.

24 Q. Now, while you were held at the TO, was anyone beaten?

25 A. Yes, several times.

1 Q. Were the beatings as severe as your first visit to the TO?

2 A. No. We got a bit of a break there.

3 Q. Now, at the end of the summer, or in the early fall, sometime in

4 the fall, did you ever see Lugar while you were being held at the TO?

5 A. Yes, a number of times.

6 Q. And did he and his paramilitaries ever visit the prisoners in the

7 TO?

8 A. They did.

9 Q. And was anyone beaten during those visits?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And were those beatings as severe as the initial stay at the TO

12 back in April?

13 A. Well, not quite as bad. It was a bit milder.

14 Q. Now, during that time that you stayed in the TO in the late summer

15 and fall of 1992, did the International Red Cross ever visit?

16 A. On one occasion, yes, they did come, but the Serbs closed the door

17 in the TO building where we were and told us that we shouldn't give a peek

18 out, but they took two or three prisoners to the rooms where the guards

19 used. They gave them a bath, gave them good clothing, and they showed

20 them to the International Red Cross.

21 Q. Were the Red Cross ever brought into the room where you were being

22 held, you and the other prisoners were being held?

23 A. Not while we were there. I don't know what happened afterwards.

24 Q. Well, while you were there, did the guards give you any

25 instructions as to what you could do while the Red Cross was in the other

1 room talking to those two or three show prisoners?

2 A. Yes. I've already said so. They told us we were not allowed to

3 talk amongst ourselves, not allowed to give any sound out, just to be

4 there quiet, and we had to be quiet.

5 Q. What about those prisoners that were placed in the guard room?

6 Were they given any instruction as to what they were supposed to do or so?

7 A. They were given instructions that they were not allowed to say

8 anything about our existence, about the fact that we had been imprisoned,

9 that they had to say that they were there under good conditions, not

10 beaten, that they were simply kept there in order to be interrogated.

11 Q. Were they allowed to say that there were other prisoners elsewhere

12 within the TO facility?

13 A. No, they were not allowed to say so.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, it's 7.00.

15 MR. WEINER: Thank you very much, Mr. Subasic. We'll continue

16 this tomorrow.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, at the same time.

18 The proceedings will begin at 1415 with the other witness, and

19 then 1600 hours we will have the video conference link.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

21 7.01 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

22 the 16th day of July 2002, at 2.15 p.m.

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