1 Wednesday, 17 July 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We are proceeding with Witness A.

7 Mr. Lukic.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

9 WITNESS: WITNESS A [Resumed]

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 Cross-examined continued by Mr. Lukic:

12 Q. Good afternoon, Witness A. Yesterday I only got a chance to

13 introduce myself and put just a couple of questions to you. If you

14 remember, I asked you how many times have you talked to the Prosecutor,

15 and you told me that the first interview was in 1994, and at that time you

16 also signed the statement given by you to the Prosecutor. Is that right?

17 THE INTERPRETER: I think the witness is saying that he can't hear

18 well, or he has trouble with interpretation.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the usher please assist the witness?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't hear the interpreters.

21 Yes.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Can you hear me, Witness?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. All right. In that case, I will repeat.

1 Your first interview with the Prosecution took place in 1994, at

2 which time you also signed your written statement. This is what I said,

3 that we have a written statement given by you. Is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So then you went on to confirm to me that you had talked to the

6 Prosecutor, or rather, with the representatives of the OTP, in 2001 as

7 well, in Odzak, and that you also had interviews with them in June of this

8 year. At that time, you did not sign any statements; you simply had

9 interviews with them. Is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. During your last interview with the Prosecution, as far as I could

12 tell from your 92 bis Rule statement, you were -- also presented several

13 things that you had said during your earlier statements; is that right?

14 A. I didn't understand your question.

15 Q. During your last interview with the Prosecution, you were

16 confronted with allegations you made when giving a statement in 1994; is

17 that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And now you stated a number of new things and a number of

20 supplemental claims to that initial statement, is that right, to this last

21 statement that you gave recently? What I'm trying to say is that you

22 supplemented this last statement in a number of ways. Is that right?

23 A. The second, or rather, the third interview that I had in Odzak

24 with the representatives of the OTP is not a really detailed interview,

25 similar to the one that we had in 1994. The investigators simply asked me

1 whether things were such-and-such, and then I would reply yes or no, and

2 this is how the conversation went along. Therefore, they did not insist

3 very much on my stay in prison, in the cell, and they also did not insist

4 a lot on the torture that I underwent.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 A. Let me also add that when giving my first statement, some things

7 were not recorded verbatim as I described them, or perhaps some things

8 were not translated accordingly.

9 Q. All right. Today, during our cross-examination, we will go back

10 to that statement of yours and you will have an opportunity to clarify

11 certain matters.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like the Exhibit 532,

13 which is the witness's statement, to be put in front of the witness so

14 that we can go over certain paragraphs in that statement.

15 Q. In your last statement, I saw that you described in detail the

16 exchanges that took place in Samac municipality before the war broke out.

17 You described that in paragraphs 14, 15, 16, and 17 of your statement. I

18 don't think we need to analyse that now. There's no need for you to look

19 at those paragraphs just now. But my question is as follows: We are now

20 referring to the exchanges between, let's say, Yugoslavia and Croatia,

21 which took place in 1991 in Samac municipality.

22 Do you remember that Izet Izetbegovic also participated in

23 organising these exchanges, and at that time he was the head of the

24 civilian protection staff in Bosanski Samac? Do you remember that?

25 A. No. And as far as I know, he never held that post, the post of

1 the head of the civilian protection staff.

2 Q. Do you remember how many exchanges there were? I'm again

3 referring to these pre-war exchanges.

4 A. Well, let me tell you: I think that there were two or perhaps

5 three of them. I'm sure about two exchanges. I'm not quite sure about

6 the third one. However, I know that during 1991, a lot of buses came from

7 the territory of Yugoslavia that we had to escort to Croatia, and these

8 buses were not recorded anywhere.

9 There was -- the president of the Red Cross would be there, a bus

10 would arrive, mostly filled with women, children, and the elderly, and

11 then in that same bus they would be transported to Slavonski Samac, which

12 is in Croatia, immediately after the bridge or the Sava River. And then

13 another bus would wait for them there and take them to another location

14 unknown to me.

15 Q. As far as I know, in 1991, there was freedom of movement for all

16 vehicles on the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Isn't that right?

17 A. As far as I know, this is how it was until the 17th of April,

18 1992.

19 Q. And you saw that these people -- that the buses on the other side

20 in Croatia were awaiting these people; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. Vinko Dragicevic, who had at the time was the head of

23 the SUP, appointed you to be a member or the head of the delegation in

24 charge of these exchanges; is that right?

25 A. Yes. He appointed me, Namik Suljic, Gregurovic Luka,

1 Mujkanovic Sead, Loncaric Dragan was there as well. There were other

2 members of the police involved in this.

3 Q. I would like to progress as quickly as possible. I'm mostly

4 interested in the information that pertains to you.

5 Do you remember that the lists for exchanges were coordinated in

6 the public security station in Samac? Do you have any information to this

7 effect?

8 A. All I can say is that I was in the MUP building, or in front of

9 it, where at the time members of the JNA were as well, as were members of

10 the special military police; again, the representatives of the JNA. I

11 remember well Major General Tumanov. There were two other lieutenant

12 colonels and colonels there, and two or three other persons in the JNA

13 uniforms, whereas on the Croatian side there were two men. Our task was

14 to take over people on the bridge and take them to the station.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness has already confirmed the

17 identity of certain persons that I would like to focus on now, and I would

18 like the witness to be shown Exhibit D52/ter [as interpreted]. [In

19 English] D52/3 ter.

20 Q. [Interpretation] This is an excerpt from a newspaper article

21 describing these exchanges, and I would like you to read just the first

22 paragraph of that article, and then I will ask you whether you know more

23 about things described in that article. Please let me know when you have

24 read this. So the first paragraph only, please.

25 What I would like you is to confirm whether you know -- or did you

1 know a person who at the time represented the Croatian side,

2 Stjepan Adanic? Do you remember that person coming to take part in

3 negotiations that took place in the Samac police station?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that the then Minister of the Interior

6 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Alija Delimustafic, also came, as did his

7 deputy, Vitomir Zepinic?

8 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please --

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Not this question, but the previous question,

11 again, a slight problem with two questions, and the answer doesn't

12 indicate what the witness is agreeing to. He's asked: "Do you know this

13 man Stjepan Adanic? " And secondly: "Do you remember he took part in

14 negotiations that took place in the Samac police station?" Answer,

15 "Yes."

16 So what is the answer "yes"? Yes, he knows Adanic or yes he

17 remembers him coming to take part in negotiations in the Samac police

18 station or yes, both, I know him and he also came to Bosanski Samac? It

19 should be clear, I think.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. It seems that I'm trying

22 to be too efficient.

23 Q. So did you know this man? Please tell me that first. Did you

24 hear of him? Did you know him, Stjepan Adanic, at the time, who was one

25 of the senior officers in the Croatian army?

1 A. I didn't know Mr. Stjepan Adanic, nor did I ever personally meet

2 him. Out of all of those people who were present at the exchange,

3 representing both sides, and representatives of the Ministry of the

4 Interior, the only person I knew and knew the office held by that person

5 was Mr. Delimustafic.

6 Q. Thank you. Do you know that Mr. Delimustafic was present at the

7 Samac police station when negotiations between these two parties took

8 place? Do you know about that?

9 A. Yes. I know that he was at the police station, upstairs, on the

10 floor. I didn't go upstairs, and I think that he was probably upstairs

11 with this other officer, Tumanov, and a few more officers. His driver was

12 downstairs, sitting in the car.

13 Q. Yes. That's quite enough. Thank you.

14 Do you know that the newspaper Oslobodjenje was printed at that

15 time and during the war in Sarajevo and was published there? Do you know

16 about that?

17 A. Oslobodjenje exists even to this day. It probably existed even

18 then.

19 Q. But you are not sure as to whether it was published then? You're

20 not sure about that? Or let me ask you another thing: Do you know

21 whether Oslobodjenje is published in Sarajevo today?

22 A. I know that Oslobodjenje exists as a publication. I know that it

23 can be purchased in the Federation, in the BH Federation. As to who is

24 the publisher, I really don't know.

25 Q. Thank you very much. During your chief examination on the 8th of

1 July, you first described how you were interrogated at the SUP building by

2 Milos Savic, the inspector. Do you remember that?

3 A. Yes. Q. On page 10, 743, you said that he had ordered a coffee

4 for you and told you that should somebody in a camouflage uniform walk in,

5 that he was going to say that the coffee was his. Do you remember saying

6 that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Based on what we know here, it was members of the special units

9 from Serbia who wore camouflage uniforms, and yesterday you said it was

10 mostly members of the special units that beat you, members of these

11 special units from Serbia.

12 A. Let me tell you: These specials, these people that were not from

13 our area and whom I didn't know before, who spoke in a different dialect,

14 they wore these multicoloured camouflage uniforms. There were several

15 persons from our municipality who also wore that kind of uniform. I will

16 also add that Nebojsa Stankovic, called Cera, had the same kind of

17 uniform.

18 Q. Can we agree that it was these people, including those whom you've

19 just mentioned, who beat you the most? This is how I understood your

20 yesterday's response, that the members of the special units beat you the

21 most.

22 A. Yes, including Stevan Todorovic, who was not from Serbia, and some

23 people who escorted him and who were from Samac municipality. However, I

24 don't remember their names.

25 Q. Thank you. Let's go on.

1 Tell me, please: While you worked in the Samac police, when a

2 person who was arrested underwent interrogation, was it typical for the

3 interrogator to offer coffee for the detainee? Was it typical?

4 A. While I was doing my job, I did not have the need to conduct any

5 interviews, and I can also say that if it were an official interview, so

6 to speak, an investigative interview, then I can say that there certainly

7 was no coffee.

8 Q. We'll agree that this interview that Milos Savic conducted with

9 you, that this was an official investigative interview; right?

10 A. Well, it probably was, because he held the appropriate post. I

11 mean, he was in a position to question me, and I was not in a position to

12 question him. But I don't know whether he was indeed the authorised

13 person to question me and whether all the other persons that conducted

14 such interviews were properly authorised to do so.

15 Q. Well, that was not my question. But did you understand this offer

16 of a coffee as a gesture of goodwill on the part of your colleague?

17 A. When it comes to Mr. Milos Savic, who had worked with me - we knew

18 each other well - I already said two days ago in my testimony -- I stated

19 that he felt uncomfortable because of the fact that he had to talk to me.

20 Q. Did you notice that this man was frightened of those specials from

21 Serbia? Did he say anything to that effect to you?

22 A. As I already said, he offered me coffee. The coffee was brought

23 in and he told me that if the people in camouflage uniforms were to enter,

24 he was going to say that the coffee was his.

25 Q. I don't want to speculate any more as to his relationship to these

1 men. I want to know whether he mistreated you or threatened you or

2 physically abused you in the course of that interview.

3 A. No.

4 Q. You said you had the opportunity to read your statement and to

5 sign it, I mean the statement that you gave the second time when he

6 dictated the statement to the typist and then you had the opportunity to

7 read it and to sign it.

8 A. Yes, it was read back to me. I don't remember what kind of a

9 statement I gave. I believe that I did sign it.

10 Q. Just one more technical issue: Did he dictate the statement to

11 the typist in front of you? Were you present while he was dictating the

12 statement to the typist, the statement that you later on had the

13 opportunity to read and to sign?

14 A. I don't remember.

15 Q. We'll move on to another topic. You described how you saw

16 Miroslav Tadic in the SUP when he talked to Mato Perkovic. You testified

17 about that on page 10762 of the transcript in front of this Trial Chamber.

18 Let me first read to you a sentence from your statement given in the

19 year 1994 to the OTP. That's page 23 of the English version of the

20 statement, for the benefit of my colleagues from the Prosecution.

21 You stated the following:

22 "Miroslav Tadic came to the prison once. Miroslav Tadic, Brcko.

23 He called out Mato Perkovic, told him to come out into the corridor. He

24 said that he had spoken to his brother over the radio and that he would be

25 exchanged."

1 Do you remember having stated that to the Prosecutors? Could you

2 please just say yes or no and then we will analyse further. Can you just

3 tell me whether you remember stating that.

4 A. I remember that Mr. Miroslav Tadic came twice.

5 Q. I asked you whether this is what you stated in 1994. Just tell me

6 whether this is what you stated to the Prosecutor.

7 A. Well, I probably did.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like photograph 52 from

9 the Exhibit P14 to be placed in front of the witness. It's the same

10 photograph that Mr. Lazarevic analysed together with the witness, because

11 I believe it would be helpful. [In English] 52. No, no. It's P14,

12 photograph 52.

13 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, this is the photograph that we had already

14 looked at yesterday; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. This is the area where you were, in one of these cells, together

17 with Mr. Franjo Barukcic and Mr. Mato Perkovic and Mr. Dragan Lukac were

18 in the cell next door; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you please indicate now, although you did mention that

21 yesterday, in which cell you were, I mean you and Mr. Barukcic, and in

22 which cell the other two men were.

23 A. Mr. Mato Perkovic and Mr. Dragan Lukac were in the first cell, and

24 in this cell here, right next to the window, there were myself and

25 Mr. Franjo Barukcic.

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let the record reflect that the

2 witness indicated the first cell as the cell which is closer to the

3 entrance, and the cell number 2 is the cell which is further down the

4 corridor, down at the bottom of the corridor.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. I see another fact here; I noticed it yesterday. It seems to me

8 that the doors to the cells themselves are bars, so it is possible to see

9 what is going on inside. Are these bars the kind of bars that allow the

10 air to circulate? That's the way I see it.

11 A. Let me explain this to you. These were the bars, and there was no

12 insulation whatsoever. So we in the cell were able to hear people

13 speaking even at a distance of 10 to 15 metres. If a car's engine would

14 go on on the other side of the road, you could hear that too. And I can

15 also tell you that I had such a powerful instinct that we knew exactly

16 when somebody would arrive in a car, because the engine would go off, and

17 we knew that that person would enter our cell.

18 Q. I would like you to concentrate on my questions, because I would

19 like to go through them as quickly as possible. My client claims that he

20 did not enter any of the two cells but that a guard took Mato Perkovic out

21 into the corridor, where the greetings from his brother were transferred

22 to him. Is it quite possible, in light of your statement in 1994, in

23 which you also said that Mr. Mato Perkovic was brought out into the

24 corridor?

25 A. I remember that Mr. Miroslav Tadic came to the door. I saw him

1 personally. Now, whether he was accompanied by a guard or not, I don't

2 remember.

3 Q. But he didn't enter your cell?

4 A. No.

5 Q. While you testified about this event here before the Trial

6 Chamber, you indicated that you didn't hear the conversation between Mato

7 Perkovic and Miroslav Tadic, that in fact Mato Perkovic told you later on

8 about the conversation. Do you remember testifying to that effect?

9 A. Well, ten years have passed, and such a long time has its impact.

10 When I saw Mr. Miroslav Tadic, I immediately thought that there would be

11 an exchange. I stated before this Trial Chamber, and also to the

12 investigators, I cannot remember right now whether I heard the words

13 spoken by Mr. Tadic or whether I heard it from Mato, but I do know that

14 they did discuss the exchange, or in other words, first he said that he

15 had spoken to his brother, and he relayed the greetings, and Mato wanted

16 to know whether his parents were still alive.

17 Q. You've already testified to that, Witness A. That's not in

18 dispute. What is in dispute, however, is that a few days ago you stated

19 to this Trial Chamber that you weren't able to hear the conversation and

20 that Mato Perkovic told you about it. Things are very important for us.

21 Some things are really important, and it's much better for you to say that

22 you don't remember than to say something that would not be correct or

23 accurate?

24 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Di Fazio.

1 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, Ms. Reidy has obtained the

2 examination-in-chief, and the answer that I can see here is -- I asked

3 him: "Can you recall what they spoke about?" And the witness, Witness A,

4 said: "I could overhear, and later on Mato told me about this. He told

5 me that Miroslav had a telephone conversation with his brother," and so on

6 and so forth. So he said, A, "I could overhear it"; and B, "I was told

7 about it as well." So it's not -- 10763 -- sorry, 2, at the very bottom

8 of 10762: "Can you recall what they spoke about?" "I could overhear, and

9 later on Mato told me about it." So he said both: He could hear it and

10 he was told.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask my colleague from

13 the Prosecutor to read the next two lines, on the next page, on page

14 10763.

15 [In English] "[Previous translation continues] ... we simply asked

16 Mato, Mato what's going to happen?"

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Of course, but that's not inconsistent. Of course

18 they would ask him what happened.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't want to dwell on

20 this topic too long. I just want to ask from the witness if he's able to

21 provide us with this information or not. Today we heard from the witness

22 that he was able to hear what was going on, the conversation, at a

23 distance of 10 to 15 metres. I just want to ask the witness whether he

24 heard the conversation between Mato Perkovic and Miroslav Tadic. Let him

25 answer the question now. I think that's the easiest solution.

1 MR. DI FAZIO: That's fine. That's fine. I've got no problem

2 with that. But I don't want it being put to the witness that he said in

3 examination-in-chief that he didn't hear it. He said: "I could overhear

4 it," and it was also reported to him. It's as simple as that.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That has been clarified sufficiently.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I then ask the witness whether he

7 heard the conversation himself, or do you think that this has been cleared

8 up? Could we ask him to state clearly whether he heard the conversation

9 or not?

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can ask him. The witness should be able to

11 answer that.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Witness A, we have a very, very simple question here. I don't

14 want to trap you in any way. Do you remember now whether you heard the

15 conversation between Mr. Tadic and Mr. Perkovic from inside your cell?

16 That's my question to you.

17 A. Well, I already stated that one could hear it, but I couldn't hear

18 every word. I heard the word "mother," "alive." So I really didn't feel

19 the need to listen in to their conversation, because I knew that Mato

20 would tell us why he had come.

21 Q. Thank you very much. I think that's quite enough.

22 You also stated in your statement that both you and Mr. Perkovic

23 looked really bad. You said yourself that you looked worse. You said

24 that Tadic came several days after you had been transferred to the SUP

25 building from the garage of the SUP. Do you remember that?

1 A. It may have been in the second half of June.

2 Q. Well, that's what I think too. Let me remind you. On page 10764,

3 you said that it was sometime in mid-June, since you were exchanged 10,

4 15, or 20 days later, and it is not contentious that you were exchanged on

5 the 5th and that in fact you left to be exchanged on the 4th. My question

6 to you is: Do you know that before that, in Samac, there had been only

7 one exchange while you were still in Serbia? Do you know about that fact?

8 A. No.

9 Q. While you were held in the SUP garage, you described before the

10 Trial Chamber and in your statement how Stevan Todorovic came with his

11 police officers, and if I understand it correctly, this is when you

12 underwent the most severe maltreatment and beatings, compared to the

13 entire period of your incarceration. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When he came to the SUP garage, while you were detained there, he

16 had not yet -- he was not involved in a car accident that you heard about

17 later on when you were exchanged?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Let me remind you to a part of your statement. I'm again

20 referring to the statement from year 1994. That's page 23 in B/C/S, and

21 for my learned colleagues from the Prosecution, that's on page 24. You

22 described how you went to be exchanged, how you were put on the bus, and

23 you stated the following:

24 "While I sat on the bus, I heard that Stevan Todorovic was

25 involved in a traffic accident and that he was in a hospital in Brcko. I

1 realised that I probably wouldn't have been released had it not been for

2 the accident."

3 Do you remember having stated that?

4 A. I remember quite clearly, and I remember who told me that.

5 Q. That's precisely what I'm interested in. Could you please tell

6 us: Who gave you that information?

7 A. I got that information -- or rather, the person that told us this

8 on the bus, on the 4th, in fact, as we were travelling by bus -- that was

9 Djuheric, nicknamed Coc.

10 Q. What did he tell you?

11 A. Well, the thing that you just told me.

12 Q. Let us now remind ourselves. Djuheric, nicknamed Coc, was a

13 member of the armed forces, not of the police; is that correct?

14 A. I know Mr. Coc. I knew him even at the time when he was a member

15 of the 4th Detachment. Now, as to -- in what capacity he was there on the

16 bus I don't know, but I do know that he was not in the police.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 In the course of the proceedings, I came to understand that you

19 were one of the persons who was beaten the most severely, most severely in

20 Samac, and the person who sustained the gravest injuries. Do you think

21 that Todorovic would have prevented you to go to be exchanged even in

22 light of this condition that you were in?

23 MR. DI FAZIO: It's fathoming -- the mind of Stevan Todorovic

24 would be difficult for anyone, let alone this witness, so I object.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You're asking the witness to speculate,

1 Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Did Coc tell you that Stevan Todorovic personally wouldn't allow

4 you to be exchanged, even though you were in the condition that you

5 described to us?

6 A. Well, he spoke in general. He wasn't referring only to me. He

7 said that he had broken his leg somewhere in the vicinity of Brcko and

8 that he was in the hospital.

9 Q. Did he say anything else?

10 A. Well, as I've already said, he said if he were here, you would not

11 be exchanged. I think he was referring to the bus that he was escorting.

12 Q. As far as I was able to understand from the question asked by my

13 colleague Mr. Lazarevic, and from your previous statements, the persons

14 that approached the bus while you were in Lipovac wanted to take you

15 personally off the bus. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Let's remember another episode. Do you remember that at the

18 checkpoint near Krepsic, a police officer also wanted to take you off the

19 bus to prevent you from being exchanged? Do you remember that also?

20 A. No.

21 Q. But do you know that police officers from Samac manned that

22 checkpoint? Do you remember that, or do you know that fact?

23 A. I don't remember who was manning that checkpoint. Let me just

24 tell you: I was preoccupied with the exchange.

25 Q. All right. If you don't remember, we'll not dwell on that any

1 more.

2 I don't know if the photograph had already been removed. I wanted

3 to ask another question. Great.

4 I'm interested in another thing, and I believe that we will be

5 able to elicit this on the basis of this photograph. On page 10765, you

6 described how Jovanovic approached you and told you you would be

7 exchanged. On page 10764 you said that you were overjoyed. You also said

8 that he came to the window to tell you that because he didn't want you to

9 look suspicious. Do you remember having stated that? Can you please

10 confirm whether this is the window that he approached?

11 A. Well, you see this window here. This window had two window panes,

12 one, two. There were bars here. I was here. So I was able to look out

13 into the yard, and we could hear what was going on, the conversations,

14 when shifts would change. But let me not go into that. And on the 4th of

15 July, I heard, through this window, somebody speaking in a very low voice.

16 Slobodan was calling my name, very softly. I peered out, and he told me,

17 "You will be exchanged today." And he immediately asked -- Lukac

18 immediately asked me what was going on, and I told him that he had told me

19 that we would be exchanged.

20 Q. Well, you've already explained all this to us. I would just like

21 the record to reflect that the witness again indicated the position where

22 he was - that was the cell closest to the window - and also the place on

23 the window from where Jovanovic called him and told him this sentence.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. You said that he spoke very softly to you.

2 A. Can we remove the photograph?

3 Q. Yes, yes. We don't need it any more. You probably don't want

4 this photograph to be in front of your eyes.

5 So you said that he said this very softly to you, and the

6 transcript reflects that he came to tell you that so that you wouldn't

7 look suspicious. I don't quite understand this. Suspicious to whom? How

8 would you look suspicious?

9 A. I didn't understand your question.

10 Q. All right. I will read you what you said on page 10765. This is

11 the transcript of July 16th, or rather, this is the transcript of the

12 8th. So your testimony on the 8th of July was as follows, page 10765,

13 line 9.

14 [In English] "He called out my name from the courtyard, and he

15 approached to the wall so that he could -- that he would not be

16 conspicuous."

17 [Interpretation] That's what I wanted to know: What does it mean,

18 that he didn't want to be conspicuous?

19 A. I don't know how was this translated into English. What I was

20 trying to say was that he called me in such a voice so as to prevent

21 others allegedly around him from hearing him. He didn't want others to

22 know that he called me and talked to me.

23 Q. By saying "others," do you mean policemen and others who were

24 there in the vicinity?

25 A. Yes. I had a feeling that he came to tell me that in such a way

1 that others could not hear him calling me and saying this to me.

2 Q. That's how I understood it as well. But I also know that all of

3 the exchanges were public, that lists were read out publicly, that people

4 were informed about exchanges publicly. You just told us that you had a

5 feeling that he wanted to say this to you secretly so that others wouldn't

6 hear this. Can you tell me: Why did you have that feeling? Why didn't

7 he come to tell you that publicly in front of others?

8 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I object. It's strictly

9 impossible for this witness to explain to you why Jovanovic was concerned

10 about attracting attention to himself. But perhaps even more importantly

11 is it's not particularly helpful to any issue, is it, with respect?

12 JUDGE MUMBA: I think --

13 MR. DI FAZIO: This guy approaches the witness and doesn't want

14 people to know that he's reporting that he's going to be exchanged.

15 It's -- how can it help us one way or the other?

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. What the witness has answered and what he has

17 described how he was told is sufficient, Mr. Lukic. We've dwelt on this

18 for too long.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree, Your Honours. I'm not

20 going to put any questions regarding this, but I will reply to the

21 Prosecutor and reiterate that I believe that the manner in which this man

22 approached him is extremely important.

23 Now we'll switch to the other matters regarding your exchange.

24 Q. Do you remember that there was a delay at the bridge in Raca, that

25 you had to way for a long time at the bridge in Raca in order to cross in

1 the FRY, Federal Republic of Yugoslavia? Do you remember that?

2 A. All I remember is that there was a delay while we were en route,

3 somewhere near Bijeljina. One of the buses had a breakdown, and since it

4 already became dark --

5 Q. You've already described this. We don't need to go back to that.

6 You also described yesterday the course of the execution and the

7 line to which you were brought near Lipovac, where you were exchanged. Do

8 you remember those other people who were escorting you, Coc and the

9 others, coming to that line where you were exchanged? Were they able to

10 get to that point with the weapons that they had on them?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 You also described the kinds of people that went with you from

14 Samac. You said that there were women, children, and the elderly there.

15 On page 10766, you said that in the playground of the elementary school

16 they saw people mostly from Hasici, Croatian Tisina, mostly Croats and

17 that there were some Muslims there as well. Do you remember saying that?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like now to move

20 on to the exchange itself and exchange lists, but prior to that I want to

21 inform the Trial Chamber that there are six exchange lists pertaining to

22 this exchange. All of these were exhibits of the Prosecution, obviously

23 available to them. And in view of the kinds of questions I'm going to

24 put, I would like all six lists to be given to the witness. Four of these

25 lists have already been introduced, one of them as an ID document.

1 In order for you to be able to follow this, I would like to say

2 that there are three lists of the people who were exchanged from the

3 Serbian side and three lists from the HVO, from the Croatian side. And I

4 would like to cover this very quickly with the witness, to see whether

5 he's able to identify any of these people on these lists. Therefore, I

6 would like the witness to be shown Exhibit D12/3.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: What are you trying to establish?

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, all I'm trying to do is

9 to show to the Trial Chamber that the same number of people was exchanged

10 from both sides and that the composition of the group exchanged was

11 approximately the same. There were some other witnesses that gave

12 evidence regarding this exchange. All I'm interested in is the number of

13 people exchanged on both sides, and I would also like to see whether the

14 witness knows any of them.

15 Let me also tell you what I consider to be important, Your

16 Honours. Yesterday the Prosecution put a question regarding Mr. Zaric and

17 negotiations involving some pilots. The witness, on the other hand, said,

18 in his 92 bis statement, that the specials from Serbia, or some man called

19 Laki, asked, "How much do you want us to ask for you?" So in view of

20 that, I just want to confront this witness and ask whether he's aware of

21 the fact whether the exchange was one-for-one, that the same number of

22 people was exchanged on both sides. And that's what I'm trying to say. I

23 hope it will not take long.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That's what I'm trying to look at, whether

25 there's any dispute from the Prosecution as to whether the numbers were

1 different.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Well I haven't conducted that analysis, if Your

3 Honours please, and I'm sure that Mr. Lukic is probably right, but until

4 I've had an opportunity for myself to go through, I'm not prepared --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: So you're not able to say.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: So I can't say that. But couldn't we just --

7 couldn't we just adduce it from the documents? Is it not possible for

8 anyone to just look at the documents rather than asking this witness? I

9 don't know. We might be able to save time in that --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The documents -- the lists you want to show

11 the witness, some of them are new, they haven't been discussed before?

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's right.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. You can introduce them, then.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could introduce just these

15 two remaining lists that have not been introduced yet, to give them an ID

16 number, because we don't have the English translation for them yet. These

17 are Prosecutor's documents, and then later on we will be able just to add

18 up the numbers and to show you what we are trying to prove.

19 Perhaps the witness is already acquainted with these lists. One

20 of them is a list of men that departed, and the other one is the list of

21 men that arrived. And we can also introduce this during our case as

22 well. We have a way to prove how these lists were compiled. But I think

23 it would be convenient to introduce them as ID documents.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please go ahead.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, you can take this back. So

1 the document I want to show the witness now is the list of persons

2 exchanged, the persons that departed on the 4th of July, 1992. And a

3 similar list is under the number D12. There is a total of 100 persons on

4 this list. This document has already been delivered to the Prosecution.

5 I will ask the witness to take a brief look.

6 Q. So it's not the list that you are looking at now, Witness A. The

7 usher will give you the relevant list. And I will tell you just briefly:

8 Since you told us that you saw that on that playground there were Croats

9 from Hasici and Tisina, are you able to recognise the names of any of the

10 individuals on this list? Were any of them exchanged together with you?

11 MR. DI FAZIO: It's D12 is being shown now?

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Which list --

13 MR. LUKIC: No.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: -- is the witness looking at?

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness is looking at the entirely

16 new list which was just given to him, and there are 100 names on that

17 list.

18 Q. Is that right, Witness A?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Because D12 has 52 persons on the list. If you recognise any of

21 the names, please tell us; if not, then we'll move on.

22 A. It's a bit difficult for me to read this. The print is very small

23 and there are many people there. The names that I'm looking at right now,

24 the names of the people that were not with me on the bus. Okay. Under

25 number 71, I remember that person.

1 Q. Just read out the name, and it will be enough for us.

2 A. Karalic Ivo Zlatko.

3 Q. So you remember that he was exchanged with him?

4 A. Yes, and so was Senic Juro, Tufekovic Marko, and that here on the

5 first page, let me just see. Djuro Petricevic, son of Marko.

6 Q. I think that will be enough for me.

7 A. Let me just add that the people who were on list number 2 were

8 with me on the bus, the list containing 52 persons. These are the people

9 that were with me on the bus. And I had no contact with other people.

10 But I just remember seeing these faces on the tape and after we were

11 exchanged.

12 Q. That's quite enough.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we just give an ID number to this

14 document?

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be D72/3 ter ID.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. And another document, which in view of the Defence completes the

20 picture of this exchange. This is the document supplied by the Croatian

21 side, dated 4th July, 1992, containing 52 male names. This is also a

22 document of the Prosecution. I don't believe the witness will know

23 individuals from this list, because they're mostly Serbs from Odzak

24 municipality, but I will ask a question pertaining to a signature and a

25 stamp on this document.

1 Sir, you can see three rather unclear signatures here. But in

2 view of the fact that you stated that after your treatment you volunteered

3 to work in Orasje as an intelligence officer, perhaps you knew or you

4 heard of Ivica Matanovic.

5 A. No. I just heard of him; I never saw him.

6 Q. And did you know Mr. Mija Matanovic?

7 A. I didn't know Mija before the war. We met afterwards, and I know

8 him well.

9 Q. Do you know what was his job?

10 A. As far as I know, he was involved in exchanges. I don't know

11 within what organisation.

12 Q. I'm interested in another person. Yesterday you described the

13 telephone conversation that your wife overheard, and in connection with

14 that, you said that you knew Anto Kujic. Do you also know that he was the

15 security officer of the Croatian army, of Croatia, during those events in

16 1992?

17 A. I did not know him at all, nor do I know what was his function in

18 Croatia.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Perhaps we can have this latest one marked for

20 identification, the document.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, and yes, I

22 agree with you. We need an ID number for this document.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will actually be marked D71/3

24 ter ID. A number was skipped, so we're going back.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

1 THE REGISTRAR: This will be D71/3.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Later on, when you were exchanged, and in view of the fact what

5 you said Tadic had told you during the exchange, did you later on acquire

6 any information regarding the Serbs imprisoned in Odzak?

7 A. No.

8 Q. I will now turn to another event described by you on the 8th of

9 July. You described the conversation you had with Mr. Franjo Barukcic.

10 That's on page 35 of the transcript.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a minute, please.

12 Q. And just one clarification: You told us you didn't know

13 Anto Kujic; however, you said that your wife had told you that he was

14 there during the negotiations. What I'm interested in is whether your

15 wife ever told you what was his function, what tasks he was involved in.

16 Did your wife know Kujic?

17 A. I don't know. I didn't ask her. That same Kujic was present when

18 I was exchanged, and that was the first time I saw him.

19 Q. But you didn't know where he was employed. I didn't hear an

20 answer. You didn't know where he was employed and on whose behalf he was

21 there at the exchange?

22 A. Well, I didn't know where he was employed. I suppose that he

23 worked on the other side. Now, whether he worked for the HV or the HVO, I

24 don't know. I wasn't interested in that. I was exchanged, and ...

25 Q. Thank you.

1 You described in detail your conversation with Mr. Franjo Barukcic

2 on the 8th of July.

3 [The witness stands down]

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have a very brief line

5 of questioning, some ten minutes remaining, so should we make a break now

6 and leave that for -- or leave that for tomorrow? All I'm interested in

7 is this conversation with Mr. Barukcic, and that will be the last topic I

8 will cover.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll have to break because of the other

10 arrangements with the other witness. So we'll continue tomorrow, most

11 likely after the Status Conference, so whatever time the Status Conference

12 will be through, parties should be around the building.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. If Your Honours please, I don't know what

14 happened yesterday with the other witness in the United States and the

15 videolink; I wasn't here. But I'm concerned to make sure, if possible,

16 that we make sure that Witness A is finished tomorrow.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sure that will happen. I'm sure we'll be able

18 to finish him, because the videolink witness is moving fairly fast.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: All right. Okay. Thank you.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Except that the witness -- this witness will have to

21 come much later tomorrow, after the Status Conference.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Yes. Very well. Thank you. It would, of

23 course, be ideal for him to finish tomorrow, because we're not sitting on

24 Friday.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

1 MR. DI FAZIO: If he doesn't finish tomorrow, then he's got

2 Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Because Mr. Lukic said he has only ten more minutes

4 he requires and that's the last counsel, is it?

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. Ten minutes.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: And thereafter it will be --

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Mr. Pantelic.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic. Yes. How much do you think you'll

9 needed?

10 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I'm also very mindful about this fact,

11 and I will try to reduce the cross-examination as much as possible. Well,

12 if the witness will be cooperative, according to the standards in

13 cross-examination, with yes or no answers, maybe half an hour, 40 minutes,

14 something like that, but -- plus re-direct. And then I don't know how we

15 shall conduct videolink examination, because --

16 MR. DI FAZIO: I've got no re-direct so far of this witness.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. All right.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Possibly one question.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: That's it so far. I can't guarantee that that will

21 be the case tomorrow.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. We'll continue our proceedings at

23 1600 hours.

24 --- Recess taken at 3.41 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic. You are cross-examining.

3 WITNESS: HASAN SUBASIC [Resumed]

4 [Witness testifies via videolink]

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Krgovic:[Continued]

7 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Subasic. I will continue my examination.

8 You said that the pistol that you had in Mebos during those war

9 days in Bosanski Samac was something that you took home with you. So I'd

10 like to ask you whether, on your way to work or on your way back home, did

11 you have anything on you that would prevent you from being arrested, in

12 view of the fact that you had a weapon on you?

13 A. I had my security guard uniform on me, and this is how I went

14 home.

15 Q. Did you have some kind of insignia on that uniform?

16 A. I think it said on it "Mebos company."

17 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Krgovic. I wonder, Mr. Subasic:

18 I seem to recall -- I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that yesterday

19 you said you didn't wear a uniform when you acted as a security guard.

20 Could you clarify that for us, please?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. I didn't have a uniform

22 before the war, and it was not mandatory either, but when the war broke

23 out, since I was the only employee there for several days, I was issued

24 with a uniform from my employer, and I only wore it for those several days

25 during the war. That uniform was seized when I was arrested. It was

1 seized on that day.

2 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Subasic, you didn't have a white band or anything like that,

5 did you?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You are a Muslim, aren't you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And during those days you moved freely about Samac without the

10 white band?

11 A. Well, there's some 80 metres between my company and my apartment,

12 and I didn't move anywhere else.

13 Q. Mr. Subasic, you were transferred to the elementary school from

14 Bijeljina sometime around 13th of May, 1992; isn't that right?

15 A. No.

16 Q. When were you transferred from Bijeljina to the elementary school

17 building?

18 A. Not at all. I was transferred to the secondary school.

19 Q. So it was the secondary school?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And then the following day you were transferred elsewhere?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And when was that? It was on the 13th or 14th of May, 1992, was

24 it?

25 A. Probably. It was mid-May.

1 Q. Let us just clarify something for the transcript. So on the

2 following day you were transferred to the elementary school building; is

3 that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And then sometime in mid-August you were transferred from the

6 school building to the TO building?

7 A. You mean from the elementary school building to the TO building?

8 Q. Yes, that's right.

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. Yesterday, on page 78, in replying to a question, you said that

11 you saw Mr. Tadic while you were in the elementary school building but you

12 did not know how many times he came there, although every time there was

13 an exchange, he would come there. Do you remember saying that?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. You never saw Tadic in the TO building; is that right? That's

16 what you said in your statement to the Prosecution in 1998. Do you

17 remember that?

18 A. Yes, that's right. I never saw him in the TO building.

19 Q. So that means that these visits of Mr. Tadic to the elementary

20 school must have happened in the time period between mid-May 1992 until

21 mid-August of that same year; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. At the time, there were other fellow citizens with you in the

24 elementary school. You will read out some names to you and you can tell

25 me whether you remember these people. Do you remember Hasan Bicic? Was

1 he there with you?

2 A. Yes, I remember him.

3 Q. And his brother, Muhamed Bicic?

4 A. He was there too.

5 Q. Was Dragan Delic with you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was Ibrahim Salkic with you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What about (redacted) ? Was he with you?

10 A. Yes, he was.

11 Q. Yesterday, when asked by the Prosecutor, you did not deny the fact

12 that in June of 1992, Tadic came to the elementary school and called all

13 of you balijas and Ustasha. Do you remember that?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. You confirmed that fact?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. And during your examination-in-chief, and in your statements, you

18 said that Miroslav Tadic came to the elementary school only when there

19 were exchanges taking place. Do you remember that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Mr. Subasic, do you know that there wasn't a single exchange in

22 June of 1992?

23 A. I told you I wasn't sure. I don't know whether there was an

24 exchange or not. If there wasn't one in June, then there must have been

25 one in July. You're asking me now to remember some things that happened

1 many years ago.

2 Q. All I'm asking you is whether you remember that.

3 A. I don't remember.

4 Q. The Prosecutor asked you to specify the time frame, and this is

5 what you said, so all I'm interested in is whether you are still upholding

6 that.

7 A. I could not specify the time period for the Prosecutor either.

8 Perhaps there was some misunderstanding. I can't remember the time period

9 now, in view of this ten-year gap.

10 Q. Do you remember saying to the Prosecutor that Tadic came to the

11 elementary school building on a number of occasions?

12 A. Yes, I remember, and it was that way.

13 Q. Mr. Subasic, do you know that while you were in the elementary

14 school there were only two exchanges. One was on the 4th of July and the

15 other one was on the 14th of August, 1992. Do you know that?

16 A. I don't know that. I know that there was more than 60 of us in

17 the elementary school and that some 26, 27 people remained, who were later

18 transferred to the TO.

19 Q. Is it possible -- could it be possible that Mr. Tadic came only on

20 two occasions?

21 A. He came on more than two occasions.

22 Q. When Miroslav Tadic came, there were other prisoners there with

23 you; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And when he called you Ustashas and balijas, the others were able

1 to hear that, weren't they?

2 A. Yes. Everybody who was there could hear that.

3 Q. And what other people were around you when Tadic called you,

4 allegedly, Ustashas and balijas?

5 A. Well, you read a list of people who were there with me, so you

6 must know who was there.

7 Q. These people whose names I read out, meaning Hasan Bicic and the

8 others, were able to hear what Miroslav Tadic said, weren't they?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. And the representatives of the Red Cross came with him, didn't

11 they?

12 A. I don't remember whether that was on that occasion when he came

13 with the Red Cross or on a later occasion.

14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] The transcript does not reflect what

15 the witness said. When I asked the witness whether the others who were

16 there were able to hear what Miroslav Tadic said, the witness

17 said "probably." So I will ask the witness to repeat the answer to that

18 question.

19 Q. When I told you that Miroslav Tadic called you Ustashas and

20 balijas, were other people able to hear what he said?

21 A. Yes. I replied by saying, "Probably, yes."

22 Q. Mr. Subasic, I will read out to you an excerpt from your statement

23 given on the 25th of April and 3rd of May, 1998, and it pertains to this

24 visit of Miroslav Tadic.

25 "Sometime during June of 1992, Miroslav Tadic came to the

1 elementary school. He entered the gym where we were detained. Tadic came

2 together with some people from the Serbian Red Cross in Bosanski Samac."

3 Do you remember stating that, especially this bit, where it says

4 that Tadic came together with the Red Cross people from Bosanski Samac?

5 A. Yes. That's what I said, that he came with the Red Cross people.

6 But at the time I didn't say that he used derogatory terms for us on that

7 occasion.

8 Q. I will continue reading on to you. You said that:

9 "I know they represented the Red Cross because they had armbands

10 indicating so. He introduced himself by saying that he was in charge of

11 the exchanges. I saw that he brought a list of names. Both Croatian and

12 Muslim names were on his list. Tadic called us all Ustashas."

13 Here, in your statement, it says that on that occasion, in June

14 1992, Miroslav Tadic, in the presence of the Red Cross people, insulted

15 you and called you all Ustashas and balijas.

16 Do you remember saying that?

17 A. Well, if that's what it says in my 1998 statement, then it must be

18 true. That's an official statement.

19 Q. So that took place in June 1992, when he came with the Red Cross

20 representatives?

21 A. I don't remember exactly what month it was.

22 Q. Please tell me: Those were representatives of the local Red Cross

23 from Bosanski Samac, those people that came with Miroslav Tadic?

24 A. Yes, it was the local Red Cross.

25 Q. How many of them were there?

1 A. Two or three. I don't remember exactly.

2 Q. Were there women among them?

3 A. I really don't remember.

4 Q. Did you, after that, make any comments about Tadic's visit and the

5 derogatory terms he used with respect to you?

6 A. Well, we probably did, but I don't remember any more.

7 Q. You also said that Tadic talked to some prisoners. Do you

8 remember which prisoners he talked to?

9 A. Can you tell me when, please?

10 Q. Well, then, on that occasion.

11 MR. WEINER: Excuse me, Your Honour. What is he referring to? Is

12 he referring to -- are we now at the Batkovici or are we ...

13 JUDGE MUMBA: I suppose we are still at the elementary school,

14 where Mr. Tadic is alleged to have gone with the representatives of the

15 Red Cross.

16 MR. WEINER: Where in his statement does he say he talked to

17 people? That's what I'm --

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see.

19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] In the transcript. I'm talking

20 about the transcript, page 30 through page 31. That's the draft version

21 of the transcript.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Did Tadic talk to any of the prisoners on that occasion?

25 A. In my statement, I indicated that he didn't talk to anyone, that

1 he just read out the names and then left.

2 Q. The thing -- the paper that you have in front of you is your

3 statement that you gave in 1998?

4 A. That's right, in 1998.

5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment.

6 MR. WEINER: Your Honour --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

8 MR. WEINER: Could he identify where or what he's referring to

9 where he claims that this witness indicated that this defendant spoke to

10 certain people? I don't see it in our transcript here. We're only

11 talking about two pages. Apparently he's looking -- I see no reference --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

13 MR. WEINER: -- Or any indication of that.

14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] That's precisely what I'm trying to

15 do. I have listed in my notes that the witness did, in fact, state that.

16 I'm trying to find it.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic. Can we move on, please.

18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I will go back to that issue later,

19 yes.

20 Q. Mr. Subasic, you mentioned in your testimony an event that your

21 mother told you about. In the statement given to the Prosecutor in 1998,

22 you did not mention anything about the alleged conversation between your

23 mother and Mr. Tadic, although you did describe, in quite some detail, all

24 the things that you learned from your mother; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. When you gave your statement, she gave a statement the day before

2 you did; is that correct?

3 A. Probably. I don't remember.

4 Q. At that time you lived together?

5 A. Yes, that's right. We lived together.

6 Q. You confirmed that you were with your mother when she gave a

7 statement to the Prosecution a few days ago; is that correct?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Could you please say -- did you say yes or no?

10 A. I said no.

11 Q. So when the Prosecutor talked to you --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

13 MR. WEINER: Which statement is he talking about? Is he talking

14 about the statement that just occurred, the interview, not the statement,

15 the interview that occurred one week ago, or is he talking about the

16 interview which occurred in 1998? I'm not certain, and I don't know if

17 the witness is certain.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic. You didn't specify which meeting.

19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] We're talking about the meeting with

20 the Prosecutor that took place a few days ago with Mr. Weiner.

21 A. Yes, I was present there, but you were talking about the

22 statement. My mother gave only one official statement, and that was in

23 1998.

24 Q. So you were there a few days ago when your mother gave a

25 statement -- when your mother --

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: We discussed that yesterday, and Mr. Weiner did

3 clarify. I don't see why we keep going round and round and wasting time.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness and counsel please speak one

5 at a time.

6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm going directly to my

7 topic. I just wanted to lay a foundation.

8 Q. Now I will read a portion from the notes. It's on page 4 of the

9 Prosecutor's notes. [In English] [Previous translation continues]...

10 indicated that in July she went to see Miroslav Tadic. [Interpretation] I

11 will skip this part, and I will read the last sentence:

12 [In English] "She asked if it was a guarantee to happen she paid

13 him. He said that he could not guarantee it, as it was not only up to

14 him. Since the defendant could not guarantee an exchange occurring, she

15 decided not to pay one hundred and two thousand [sic] German marks to

16 Tadic."

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

18 MR. WEINER: Two corrections. One apparently my typing is not

19 that good. She asked if it was guaranteed to happen. There should be the

20 word "if." And the other thing is he said 1. -- Okay. 1.200 marks. I'm

21 sorry. 1.200 German Deutschmarks. I thought he said 1,000 and 2 or

22 something.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Do you remember saying that to the Prosecutor?

1 A. My mother said that. I was present there.

2 Q. On the 15th of July, you stated before this Trial Chamber that

3 your mother, as she told you, gave up because she didn't have enough

4 money. That was on page 73/23. Do you remember that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. But you must have heard from your mother that when she told you

7 that Tadic told her that it was not up to him and that she -- that he --

8 she shouldn't give him any money?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Mr. Subasic, you are now twisting the facts. So she did not give

11 up. She had no money. Is that the situation?

12 A. What do you mean when you say that I'm twisting facts?

13 Q. Did you say in your statement that your mother didn't want to give

14 any money, that she couldn't get any guarantees? Then you said that she

15 gave up because she apparently -- allegedly didn't have money.

16 A. If there were any guarantees, my mother would have found the money

17 somehow and would have given that money.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness and counsel please speak one

19 at a time.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic, can you wait for the witness.

21 And the witness should also wait for counsel to complete the

22 answer. The interpreters are having difficulties to follow.

23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Subasic, is it correct that you stated yesterday that your

25 mother didn't give money to Miroslav Tadic because she didn't have any?

1 Do you remember saying that?

2 A. Yes, I do remember saying that.

3 Q. Why did she go to see Miroslav Tadic to offer him money that she

4 didn't have?

5 A. It wasn't a problem of money. Money would have been found in some

6 way.

7 Q. So she gave up because she couldn't get any guarantees?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. At that time, when she -- that your mother told you that she was

10 visiting Mr. Tadic, it was in the summer of 1992, an investigation was

11 underway against you in the SUP and you were giving a statement. Do you

12 remember that?

13 A. I gave one statement.

14 Q. Mr. Subasic, your wife and child were exchanged on the 7th of

15 October, 1992; is that correct?

16 A. Probably, yes. Yes. I know that it was in October 1992, but I

17 don't know the exact date.

18 Q. Miroslav Tadic was present when they were exchanged; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Your wife didn't give any money to Miroslav Tadic; is that

22 correct?

23 A. No, she didn't.

24 Q. She didn't offer him any money?

25 A. No, she didn't.

1 Q. Miroslav Tadic didn't ask her for any money; is that correct?

2 A. No, he didn't ask for any.

3 Q. Your mother was exchanged in June 1993; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. She didn't offer any money to Miroslav Tadic to be exchanged; is

6 that correct?

7 A. No, she didn't.

8 Q. Did Miroslav Tadic ask for any money from her, for her to be

9 exchanged?

10 A. Probably not.

11 Q. Mr. Subasic, in November you were transferred to the camp in

12 Batkovici, and as you stated, you went there together with all those

13 persons who were detained in the TO building; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Omer Nalic, do you remember that he was also transferred with you?

16 A. Yes, I do remember.

17 Q. [redacted]?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Kemal Mehinovic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Ibrahim Salkic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Abdulah Drljacic?

24 A. I don't remember him that well.

25 Q. [redacted]?

1 A. Yes, he was.

2 Q. You said that in Batkovici representatives of the International

3 Red Cross visited you.

4 A. Yes, they did.

5 Q. And you said that in November, when you were transferred there,

6 you told them about the people who were detained in Zasavica; is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did the representatives of the International Red Cross let you

10 know that they were familiar with the fact of what was going on in

11 Zasavica in September, as early as in September?

12 A. I don't remember. I know that we discussed it with them, but I

13 don't know what they said.

14 Q. Did they tell you, when you told them about Zasavica, that they

15 had already spoken to Jelena Kapetanovic, as early as in the beginning of

16 September 1992?

17 A. Could you please repeat your question? I didn't hear you well.

18 Q. Let me ask you: Do you know Jelena Kapetanovic?

19 A. I know her by sight.

20 Q. Did the representatives of the International Red Cross tell you

21 that they spoke with people in Zasavica as early as in September and that

22 specifically they talked to Jelena Kapetanovic?

23 MR. WEINER: Your Honour --

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

25 MR. WEINER: I would object at this time for a few reasons.

1 Number one, does he have a document by the Red Cross indicating that they

2 were aware of the incident as early as September? Number two, was it the

3 same people who spoke to Jelena Kapetanovic? Were they the same persons

4 who spoke to these prisoners? Was there coordination between the two Red

5 Cross groups? Unless -- if he has a document from the Red Cross, or if he

6 is planning on bringing a Red Cross representative from the International

7 Red Cross to testify, that's fair cross-examination, but if he isn't, I'd

8 argue that that's improper cross-examination.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic?

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just wanted to ask

11 the witness whether -- now, I don't know if the Prosecutor had the

12 document about the visit of the International Red Cross to Batkovici when

13 he asked the questions of this witness. I didn't ask about any documents;

14 I merely asked about facts. Because now the Prosecutor is trying to

15 introduce the statement that the people in Zasavica were being concealed,

16 that there were attempts to keep it under cover and that the people from

17 the Red Cross were informed about Zasavica only in November from the

18 prisoners in Batkovici, and that's the line of questioning that the

19 Prosecutor is doing. Because we -- and that's wrong, because we had

20 Jelena Kapetanovic as a witness here, who confirmed that, as early as in

21 August and September 1992, representatives of the International Red Cross

22 were already in Zasavica. So I'm not asking about any documents; I'm

23 asking about the fact whether he was aware of that.

24 A. Yes, sir. If you want to know even the Territorial Defence was

25 registered, but we were imprisoned there, and only two or three men were

1 shown, and the rest of us were kept under cover. And if you were to ask

2 these people, they would tell you that they were registered as early as in

3 September 1992.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner --

5 A. And Jelena Kapetanovic also could have been the one that was

6 shown.

7 MR. WEINER: I was just going to say that counsel indicated

8 August/September Jelena Kapetanovic's testimony was sometime in October,

9 sometime in October, so that's a misquote of her testimony.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: She said that the Red Cross visited them in October

11 or --

12 MR. WEINER: Yes. Sometimes around the 5th of October, she says.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: 1992?

14 MR. WEINER: Yes. And that they were taken there in August, so

15 they had been there for some time.

16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] At any rate, it was before the

17 transfer of the prisoners to Batkovici.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic. You can go ahead.

19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Subasic, yesterday you said, on page 45, that you saw Miroslav

21 Tadic for the first time in Batkovici in January, in 1993.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How often did Miroslav Tadic come to Batkovici from January 1993

24 onwards?

25 A. I can't tell you that. I don't know. Whenever there was an

1 exchange.

2 Q. Two, three, four, five times?

3 A. I couldn't tell you with any certainty, but he did come on several

4 occasions.

5 Q. When was the last time you saw him in Batkovici?

6 A. I don't remember.

7 Q. As regards your going to Bijeljina for the trial, did you see him

8 after that time?

9 A. I don't remember, really.

10 Q. Let me ask you: When Miroslav Tadic came to the elementary school

11 building, did he have a beard?

12 A. I don't remember whether he had a beard in the elementary school,

13 but I remember that he had a beard in Batkovici. That I can confirm with

14 certainty.

15 Q. On the 17th of April, when you saw him then, did he have a beard?

16 A. No, he did not have a beard at that time.

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 Q. Sir, you are a fact witness here, and I noticed that your memory

1 doesn't fail you when you answer Prosecutor's questions. So I suppose

2 that we are now covering the same events?

3 JUDGE MUMBA: That is not correct. There are many times the

4 witness said he couldn't remember, especially the dates, and some facts he

5 didn't remember. So it's not correct to say that. Just go on with your

6 cross-examination.

7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Subasic, yesterday you described an incident involving

9 Sabah Seric and the time when he went to be exchanged. Please tell me:

10 There was just one person with the last name of Seric with you in

11 Batkovici? That was the only person from Samac with that last name; is

12 that right?

13 A. What do you mean, the only person?

14 Q. Well, that's what I mean: The only person with that last name

15 Seric.

16 A. You mean the last name or the first name as well?

17 Q. Yes, the first and the last name.

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. Was there another Seric with you in Batkovici?

20 A. I really don't remember. I don't think so.

21 Q. [No interpretation]

22 JUDGE MUMBA: We didn't get interpretation of the question.

23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. How old is Sabah Seric?

25 A. Do you mean now or then?

1 Q. Then. How old was he then?

2 A. I think that he was probably born either in 1954 or in 1956,

3 around there.

4 Q. Do you know his father's name?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. When Seric was exchanged, do you remember who called out the names

7 of the people to be exchanged? Was it Miroslav Tadic or one of the

8 guards?

9 A. I don't remember. All I remember is that Miroslav Tadic came with

10 the lists, and as to who read out the names, I really don't know.

11 Probably him, but I can't tell you exactly.

12 Q. And when was this business with the lists taking place? Where was

13 it taking place? Was it in the hangar or in the yard?

14 A. In the hangar.

15 Q. It was in that fence-in part of the prison in Batkovici, wasn't

16 it?

17 A. Well, if you say "hangar," you must know what "hangar" means.

18 That was your question.

19 Q. Tell me, please: Did Sabah Seric tell you that he paid, gave

20 money, to Miroslav Tadic in order to be exchanged?

21 A. We saw that, and he also told us.

22 Q. So you saw that?

23 A. Yes, I saw that, as did others.

24 Q. What did you see exactly?

25 A. When the lists were read out, some of the persons were not

1 present, and then Sabah went up to Miroslav Tadic, put money into his

2 hand. Miroslav Tadic went out, and later on came back with corrected

3 lists and read out Sabah Seric's name, who was later exchanged.

4 Q. Did he give the money into -- did he put the money into his hand?

5 A. Probably.

6 Q. Did you see that moment when the money was exchanged?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you tell us how -- what it looked like? Did he put the money

9 into his hand?

10 A. Well, you know how it is when money is given and accepted; it's

11 just clear.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Is the Defence disputing that?

13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Then we don't need to go into all those details.

15 You can simply contradict the witness.

16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since the witness did

17 not reply to my question directly when I asked him whether he saw

18 Sabah Seric give money to Miroslav Tadic, he said "probably," and then,

19 faced with my other question, he said, "Well, you know how it is when

20 money is exchanged."

21 Q. So based on that, sir, I'm concluding that you did not see,

22 yourself, the moment when Sabah Seric gave money to Miroslav Tadic.

23 A. Yes, I did see that, but now you are asking me to remember in

24 detail things that happened ten years ago.

25 Q. So you don't remember all of the details regarding this?

1 A. Well, quite naturally, I can't remember all of the details.

2 Q. That he put the money into his hands?

3 A. I remember him giving the money to him.

4 Q. Tell me, please: You probably stood nearby and must have heard

5 the conversation that preceded that scene?

6 A. Yes. I heard the conversation that preceded that scene.

7 Q. Can you describe that conversation?

8 A. Mr. Sabah asked Miroslav what -- saying that he will give him

9 money for himself and for another person; however, Miroslav Tadic refused

10 to accept money for Muris Mehic but accepted money only for Sabah, and

11 Sabah was later exchanged.

12 Q. How long was that conversation?

13 A. Perhaps five minutes, three minutes.

14 Q. Were any of your fellow citizens nearby as well?

15 A. There was Muris Mehic, others whose names I can't remember right

16 now.

17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will now read the

18 names of some of the witnesses, and therefore I will ask that we now turn

19 to the private session.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Some of them are protected witnesses. All right.

21 Can we move into private session, please.

22 [Private session]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [Open session]

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. And then immediately thereafter, Seric was exchanged; is that

12 right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. This event took place before your trial in Bijeljina; is that

15 right?

16 A. It probably is right, but I don't remember exactly.

17 Q. Can you tell us how long before your trial in Bijeljina?

18 A. You mean where I went from Batkovici?

19 Q. No. I mean the trial in Bijeljina. Can you tell me: In relation

20 to your trial in Bijeljina, when did this event with Sabah Seric take

21 place?

22 A. I think it was in January 1993, but I'm not sure.

23 Q. Some other fellow citizens of yours were exchanged together with

24 Sabah Seric, weren't they?

25 A. Yes, definitely.

1 Q. Do you remember that Avdo Drljacic and (redacted) were

2 exchanged?

3 A. I don't remember.

4 Q. This affair with Sabah Seric giving money for his exchange is

5 something that you didn't mention to the Prosecutor when you talked to

6 them in 1998; isn't that right?

7 A. Probably because nobody asked me about it.

8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to put on

9 the ELMO a list for exchange so that the witness could take a look at it.

10 It's an Exhibit P25/3 -- or rather, D25/3.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Subasic, can you see this document?

14 A. Not very clearly.

15 Q. Can you see the date in the upper-left corner?

16 A. No, I can't.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic, what are you trying to establish

18 through this list?

19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is the list of

20 people exchanged in 1992.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] The exchange in which Mr. Sabah

23 Seric was included.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] On the 24th of December, 1992.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] And the witness is claiming that

3 that took place sometime between January 1993 and the summer of 1993. So

4 I would like the witness to take a look at the date of this list and to

5 see whether Mr. Seric is on this list.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The witness didn't claim anything.

7 I simply said that I thought it was in January of 1993. So it means that

8 I was wrong by just one month. I'm telling you again: It's been ten

9 years since that time, and you're asking me about the dates. I can tell

10 you when I was exchanged. I was exchanged on the 9th of June, 1994. Don't

11 ask me about the dates of other exchanges.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner?

13 MR. WEINER: I was just going to suggest, so we can move this

14 along, rather than have the witness read it, could we just read it out to

15 the witness? Because I don't know if he can see what we've got and I

16 don't know if he can see what he's got --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Does the Prosecution have this document?

18 MR. WEINER: Yes, we have the document. I just thought to move it

19 along.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. What number is the name you are dealing

21 with, you want, Mr. Krgovic?

22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Number 24.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can the Prosecutor look at number 24?

24 MR. WEINER: Yes. I see it right here. If he can just read it

25 out to the witness, that's fine. I have no objection.

1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Sir, what you're seeing now is the list of people exchanged on the

3 24th of December, 1992, people exchanged in Dragalic, and under number 24

4 you can see the name of Seric Sabah, son of Hasan, or rather, it's a bit

5 unclear here. Do you remember whether this person listed under number 24

6 is the person we are talking about?

7 A. Well, if you have trouble reading the name of that person, then

8 how do you expect me to read his name? You told me that the name is

9 written not clearly.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic, it's your case, but that name under

11 that number is the person you are talking about, the one who, according to

12 this witness, paid the money. So you simply tell the witness that

13 according to this list, dated whatever, it shows that this person was

14 exchanged on this date. That's all. Because, after all, the witness has

15 said that he cannot remember other exchanges, the dates of other

16 exchanges; he can only remember his own exchange. So I don't even see how

17 material this is.

18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Subasic, are you still claiming that Miroslav Tadic came to

20 Batkovici for the first time in January 1993, as you said a number of

21 times here before this Tribunal and in your statements?

22 A. I said that I don't remember with full certainty. It could be

23 that he came for the first time in January of 1993, because there was one

24 exchange in Batkovici in January of 1993.

25 Q. Mr. Subasic, Sabah Seric was exchanged in December of 1992, and it

1 was impossible for you to witness this event in January of 1993; isn't

2 that right?

3 A. Sir, I told you --

4 Q. Please tell us briefly. Are you still upholding your previous

5 claim?

6 A. I'm still upholding my previous statement that I don't remember

7 when did this take place exactly.

8 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me. Mr. Subasic, I wonder whether you

9 could tell me -- I'm not that familiar with surnames from the former

10 Yugoslavia, but I wonder whether you could tell me: Is this surname Seric

11 a popular -- a fairly popular name, like Smith or Jones would be in the

12 United States, let's say? Is it a name where there could have been

13 perhaps more than one Seric in the camp in Batkovici? Please, it would be

14 of assistance if you could clarify this.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Seric family has many members in

16 Bosanski Samac. It could be that there was another person with the last

17 name of Seric in the camp, but I can't tell you with certainty.

18 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Subasic, in your testimony, or rather, in your statement given

21 to the Prosecutor, pages 43, 44, you described how you went to the

22 military court in Bijeljina.

23 A. What testimony or what statement are you referring to?

24 Q. In your testimony yesterday.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. How many times were you taken to Bijeljina?

2 A. I think twice, once to be interrogated and then for the

3 sentencing - the so-called sentencing.

4 Q. You told the Prosecutor that you had been in some kind of an

5 office, the place that looked like an office?

6 A. Yes, something like that.

7 Q. In the course of the interrogation, there were other people

8 present there apart from you in the office; is that true?

9 A. Yes. I saw Boro Pisarevic, Goran Blagojevic.

10 Q. The typist was also there who took down your statement. Do you

11 remember that?

12 A. Yes. I mentioned that the lawyer, the judge, and the typist.

13 Q. The lawyer was not our colleague Mr. Pisarevic?

14 A. No. No. I saw him in the courtroom when we were brought in. I

15 don't know whether he had anything to do with our case, but it was like as

16 if -- it seemed that I had seen him there.

17 Q. Did the investigative judge, in the course of your interrogation,

18 tell you what you are charged with, what criminal offences? Did he

19 mention the armed insurrection or something like that?

20 A. No. He asked me if I participated in the night guards in Samac,

21 if I had any weapons in Samac, if I was a member of the SDA, if I was a

22 member of any other party, and then in the end, when I received the

23 statement, none of the questions were listed there, and the only thing

24 that was stated there was that pursuant to Article this and that of the

25 law of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia --

1 Q. All right. We'll come to that. Let me just ask you a few

2 preliminary questions.

3 Did you receive the decree about the assignment of counsel, ex

4 officio?

5 A. I probably did. I don't remember. But I did have a defence

6 counsel.

7 Q. Did the investigating judge or the defence counsel tell you that

8 without the interview with the investigative judge, according to the

9 Criminal Code -- code on law and criminal procedure that --

10 A. Could you please tell me: What law are you referring to?

11 Q. I'm just asking you whether they told you that.

12 A. Yes, they did, and they did quote the law. I don't remember the

13 exact article, but I do remember that it was such-and-such law of the

14 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated] I

16 apologise. I have problems with my microphone.

17 Q. So they did mention to you, they did note the article of the

18 Criminal Code and the criminal offence that you were being charged with;

19 is that right?

20 A. Yes, they did. The criminal offence was armed insurrection or

21 armed rebellion.

22 Q. Did the investigating judge or the lawyer tell you that according

23 to the law in force at that time it was not allowed to consult the defence

24 counsel before being questioned by the investigative judge?

25 A. I don't remember that. Can you please tell me: Which law was in

1 force at that time?

2 Q. I would kindly ask you to answer my questions.

3 A. I will answer your question, but I would like to clear this up.

4 I'm aware that you're familiar with the law, and you probably are familiar

5 with the fact that we in the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina, that we --

6 that the laws of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia were used to prosecute

7 us.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Subasic, just wait for the questions from

9 counsel. Do not ask counsel any questions. Just answer the questions put

10 to you by counsel. If you don't know, you say so. Do not ask counsel any

11 questions.

12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. So, Mr. Subasic, did the investigating judge tell you that during

14 the interrogation of the accused in front of the investigative judge that

15 the accused is not confronted with the statements of the witness, of any

16 witnesses?

17 A. Nothing was told to us. Nobody asked us anything there.

18 Q. In the course of the questioning in front of the investigating

19 judge, did you sign any statements?

20 A. I did sign a statement.

21 Q. In your statement to the Prosecutor on the 3rd of May - and you

22 repeated that on page 43 of the transcript yesterday - that the statement

23 was completely different from the one that you gave and that the facts

24 were twisted and changed. Do you remember saying that?

25 A. I do.

1 Q. Please tell me: Which facts were changed and twisted?

2 A. I was just beginning to tell you. When I came there and when he

3 started to ask me questions whether I had weapons, whether I was a member

4 of the SDA party, of the HDZ party, whether I took part in the night

5 guards in Bosanski Samac, and I told him that I did nothing of the above.

6 I was not a member of any party. I didn't take part in any protests or

7 any guard duty. They let me go out of the office. I went back to

8 Batkovici. And then a few days later I was brought back there and then an

9 indictment was read to me, indicating that I was charged with armed

10 rebellion, pursuant to such-and-such article of the Criminal Code of the

11 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

12 Q. But you did read and you did sign the statement given in front of

13 the investigating judge?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And that statement was not changed. You merely received an

16 indictment -- a new document?

17 A. I signed my statement, but the statement that came back to me was

18 something completely different.

19 Q. What was that something, this other thing that you were given?

20 A. It was the statement, the indictment.

21 Q. So you were given the indictment?

22 A. Yes, the indictment.

23 Q. So not your statement that you had signed, but the indictment

24 signed by the Prosecutor?

25 A. Probably I was charged in accordance with the statement that I had

1 given.

2 Q. Did the judge ask you to plead guilty or not guilty for the

3 criminal offence?

4 A. I think he did.

5 Q. And how did you plead?

6 A. I plead not guilty. I can't see what I had to feel guilty for.

7 Q. Can you please tell me: Did you receive the judgement after the

8 trial?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. And for which criminal offence were you convicted?

11 A. I was convicted of armed rebellion in the territory of the SFRY.

12 Q. Can you please tell me what was the sentence?

13 A. Twelve years in prison.

14 Q. Did you appeal against the judgement?

15 A. Appeal to whom?

16 Q. Did you write an appeal challenging the judgement?

17 A. I didn't write any appeals. I didn't appeal to anyone. And do

18 you want me to tell you why?

19 Q. Please do.

20 A. Because we were there like cattle. Nobody asked us anything. And

21 our lives were in danger every day. We were brought to the courtroom in a

22 truck, like cattle. We were made to run out into the yard. We had to

23 face the wall. We didn't know where we were.

24 Q. Mr. Subasic, let me ask you something. Did the investigating

25 judge ask you anything about Dedo Halilovic, your neighbour?

1 A. I don't remember. No, he didn't.

2 Q. Mr. Subasic, your neighbour, Dedo Halilovic, was a high-ranking

3 official of the Party of Democratic Action in Bosanski Samac; is that

4 correct?

5 A. I don't remember that, because I was not a member of that party.

6 Q. Your neighbour Dedo Halilovic was also the commander of the

7 engineer section of the armed unit that was made up of Muslims. Do you

8 know that?

9 A. Where?

10 Q. Your neighbour Dedo Halilovic --

11 A. Please, can you tell me where? Where was he the commander of that

12 unit?

13 Q. In Samac.

14 A. I don't know about that.

15 Q. Your neighbour Dedo Halilovic was one of the organisers of the

16 barricades or roadblocks that were set up by the SDA in Samac. Do you

17 know about that?

18 A. I don't know about that. As I already said, I never took part in

19 any protests, any barricades.

20 Q. Your neighbour Dedo Halilovic took part in the distribution of

21 illegal weapons in Bosanski Samac. Do you know that?

22 A. I don't know about that.

23 Q. Your neighbour Dedo Halilovic gave you an automatic pistol and

24 three clips of ammunition on the 15th of April, 1992; is that correct?

25 A. No, that's not correct. I never had any weapons.

1 Q. Between the 16th and the 17th of April, and the 17th and 18th of

2 April, on those two nights, you took part in the fighting in Bosanski

3 Samac?

4 A. No, I didn't. Could you please tell me: What was the fighting

5 that was going on in Bosanski Samac? How many people were killed there?

6 Q. That submachine-gun and the three clips of ammunition that you

7 obtained, you took them to your uncle's house, Galib Nurkic. That's your

8 uncle. Is that correct?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And you hid the weapons in his basement?

11 A. No. Galib did not have a basement in his house. So if you want

12 to hear the details, and if you're asking the questions that I -- about

13 the facts that I hear for the first time, Galib Nurkic's house did not

14 have a basement at all.

15 Q. Was a rifle found at your uncle's place, Galib Nurkic's place,

16 that he handed over to the authorities?

17 A. No, I don't know about that.

18 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Subasic, that in the document that you received

19 from the military court in Bijeljina, that the facts that I just -- the

20 factual allegations that I just mentioned are quoted in there?

21 A. Do you have that document with you?

22 Q. Yes, I do.

23 A. Could you please show that document to the Prosecutor?

24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] We received it only today. It's a

25 very bad copy, hardly legible. We will put it on the ELMO, and perhaps I

1 could read it to you and then the interpreters can confirm.

2 A. I would like you to read to me, read out the article of the

3 relevant law and the relevant state where that law was in force, according

4 to which I was convicted.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic, since you're saying that your copies

6 are very bad, I don't know how you intend to use them.

7 Mr. Weiner?

8 MR. WEINER: Yes, Your Honour. This afternoon we received three

9 documents. None of them are indictments. These are documents -- one is

10 three years after the fact, relating to the charges; one concerns that the

11 persons have been interviewed and that further investigations should

12 occur; and the other basically says that further investigations should

13 occur. But unless he has an indictment -- counsel just indicated that

14 they have this indictment. I haven't seen it. Do they have another

15 document that we haven't seen? Also, I haven't seen a copy of any

16 statement that this witness has given. Where is the statement, so we can

17 make a comparison if they received these documents, where are the rest of

18 the package of documents?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic?

20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may explain. In

21 his testimony, this witness -- the witness indicated that in 1993 he was

22 sentenced to 12 years in prison. Our investigators went to the files, to

23 the archives of the military court in Bijeljina, and in the registry of

24 judgements. They did not find the judgement and they did not find the

25 indictment pursuant to which this witness would be sentenced to 12 years

1 in prison. Our investigators, in the course of his testimony, went to the

2 archives of the Prosecutor's office and found the three documents that we

3 received today by fax, and we immediately disclosed them to the

4 Prosecutor. One is the request -- is the decree to initiate an

5 investigation, indicating quite clearly what the accused is charged with,

6 the criminal offence that he is charged with and the decree --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation continues]

8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] That's the document dated 9th of

9 April, 1993.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] The next document is dated 15th of

12 May, 1993. That's the proposal of the public prosecutor for additional

13 investigation to be conducted. And the next document is the decision on

14 the abolishment of the criminal proceedings against this witness. It was

15 issued by the investigating judge and it was dated 12th of September,

16 1995, which would mean that no indictment was ever issued against this

17 witness and that he was never sentenced to 12 years in prison. But the

18 documents that the witness stated that he did receive some of them clearly

19 indicate the factual allegations and the charges against him, the criminal

20 offences that he is charged with.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

22 MR. WEINER: Number one, the document relating to what appears to

23 be a dismissal of charges is September 12th, it looks like 1996 on mine.

24 Part of these documents are illegible, but it appears to be 1996, so over

25 three years later. The document dated the 15th of May is -- it must be a

1 form, because it's in two different typewriters or two different types of

2 typewriting. And the third document is apparently from the initial

3 interview, dated May -- it appears -- I'm sorry. April 9th, 1993.

4 Counsel have had notice of this witness testifying in relation to

5 this incident since 1998, 1999, at least April of 1999, and these just

6 show up today. These are not statements of this particular witness.

7 These are not direct statements of this particular witness.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic, I think the best way is for you to deal

9 with it in your defence when you've got documents that can be read, you

10 can just put what your case is to the witness.

11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it was not my

12 intention to read these documents. We disclosed them to the Prosecutor as

13 soon as we received them. We just wanted to ask this witness about some

14 facts. So I don't want to tender them into evidence at this point.

15 Q. So, Mr. Subasic, you did receive the decision on the initiation of

16 the investigation. Was this the decision that you received, or was that

17 the judgement that you're referring to?

18 A. Yes, that's the judgement. I would like to ask a question to you.

19 You didn't answer my question. Could I ask the Court's permission for you

20 to give me the answer to that question, and that will clarify a lot of

21 things.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Which question do you want the counsel to answer?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The question is whether in these

24 documents that the Defence counsel produced now, is there the article and

25 the law quoted there under which the investigation against me was

1 initiated? Do these documents reflect that?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The counsel has said that he doesn't wish to

3 have these documents produced. He is not going to use them. So he can't

4 answer that question.

5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] If you will allow me, I could read

6 this out to the witness, because it's stated quite clearly in here. If

7 the Trial Chamber would allow me.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: What is stated there? The charge?

9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] It gives the article of the law

10 under which this witness was charged. Your Honours, specifically, this is

11 the crime of armed insurrection, under Article 124(1) and Article 139(3)

12 of the adopted law on Criminal Code of Socialist Federal Republic of

13 Yugoslavia.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

15 MR. WEINER: Yes. For the record, Your Honour, the document dated

16 April 4th, 1993 refers to Article 139 of the Socialist Republic of

17 Yugoslavia. However, once again for the record, the document dated

18 September 1996 refers to Article 139 of the Republic of Srpska that he was

19 charged with. And the third document, just says Article 139. It doesn't

20 state -- 124 and Article 139, but it doesn't state which republic or which

21 nation the laws emanate from.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you will just allow

24 me to clarify this for my colleague from the Prosecution. In view of the

25 fact that the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had ceased

1 to exist, the countries that stemmed from it passed the decision on

2 adopting certain formal laws of the SFRY, and the Criminal Code of that

3 country was adopted both by Republika Srpska and the Federation of Bosnia

4 and Herzegovina. And later on, when this other document was issued, at

5 that time Republika Srpska had already adopted its own Criminal Code. So

6 therefore, that Criminal Code was applied on the territory of the entire

7 Bosnia and Herzegovina at that time, but later on we will discuss this in

8 our case.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. There is no need for us to go on with this

10 debate. Please move on, Mr. Krgovic. We've had enough on what he was

11 charged with. He himself had earlier mentioned that it was armed

12 insurrection, so we can proceed.

13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Therefore, Mr. Subasic, you never received the judgement

15 sentencing you to 12 years' imprisonment?

16 A. I did not hear you.

17 Q. So therefore, you never received the judgement sentencing you to

18 12 years of imprisonment?

19 A. Yes, I received the judgement, but I never had to serve that

20 sentence.

21 Q. And was the judgement perhaps publicly read out to you?

22 A. I was given the judgement at the court in Bijeljina. It was read

23 out to me there.

24 Q. And was it actually -- this document that I just read out to you,

25 that's the document that you received; is that what you're saying?

1 A. I never saw that document.

2 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Krgovic, I was just going to say the same

3 thing. You just read out the articles from the particular criminal codes,

4 but the witness hasn't seen the document.

5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I will move on from this topic.

6 Q. Tell me, please: You were exchanged in Satorovici in 1994; is

7 that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You didn't see Miroslav Tadic at that location where you were

10 exchanged?

11 A. No, I did not.

12 Q. Nor did he come to fetch you in Batkovici?

13 A. No, he did not.

14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a correction for the

15 transcript.

16 Q. You did not see Miroslav Tadic at the location of your exchange?

17 A. No, I did not.

18 Q. You went to exchange, together with Izet Ramusovic; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Esad Dzakic and Mirsad Srna went there with you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And according to you, you were still under that sentence,

23 sentencing you to 12 years' imprisonment; is that right?

24 A. Well, if the sentence was passed down in 1993 and I was exchanged

25 in 1994, then yes, you're right.

1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Lazarevic, how much time do you think

3 you'll need?

4 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I do believe I can complete my

5 cross-examination in one hour, maybe 10, 15 minutes more, but it depends.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. You can start.

7 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, just one matter. If he can complete it

8 in one hour, is there a possibility of going beyond 7.00 tonight? I only

9 have five minutes of re-direct at this time, so we can finish it tonight.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Let's start now and see how we move on.

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honours. Are we going to take a break

12 in two minutes or not? I just need to ...

13 [Trial Chamber confers].

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe we shall forfeit our break and simply go

15 ahead.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Lazarevic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Subasic. My name is

18 Aleksandar Lazarevic. I'm the Defence counsel representing Mr. Zaric in

19 this case. I will be cross-examining you.

20 Before I commence my cross-examination, I would like to tell you

21 that my client would like to express his regret for everything that you

22 and your family suffered during the wartime in Bosnia. My client has

23 asked me to convey this to you. But before I start asking my questions,

24 let me please tell you: Since I have observed that sometimes there is

25 some overlapping between questions and answers, I would like to ask you to

1 wait briefly before answering my questions, because the interpreters are

2 warning us here that they are unable to follow this pace of examination.

3 So please make a brief pause before giving your answers.

4 Let me start with this: In your statement here before this

5 Tribunal, you spoke about some rallies that were held before the 17th of

6 April, and also you spoke about the gathering of citizens which took place

7 after the accident at the Valentino cafe. Do you remember talking about

8 that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You were present at that gathering; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Sulejman Tihic, the then president of the SDA in Bosanski Samac,

13 spoke at that rally; is that right?

14 A. I really don't remember who gave speeches. I know that there were

15 a lot of people there, but I couldn't tell you with certainty who gave

16 speeches.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lazarevic, I'm sorry. I was reminded by the

18 registry assistant that the interpreters do need a break, because they do

19 get exhausted. So I'm afraid we shall have to take our 20-minutes' break

20 and resume at 10 minutes before 1800 hours.

21 --- Recess taken at 5.31 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 5.55 p.m.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic. You're continuing

24 cross-examination.

25 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Subasic, we left it off at that rally which

2 was held after the accident in the Valentino Cafe. I have just one more

3 question: Do you remember Simo Zaric speaking at that rally?

4 A. I don't remember.

5 Q. All right. In that case, we'll move on to another topic, then.

6 The Prosecutor asked you certain things about the 4th Detachment.

7 You said that you knew its members well. And I would like to ask you a

8 few things about the 4th Detachment now.

9 Do you know when it was founded?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. Do you know that the 4th Detachment was within the JNA?

12 A. No, I don't know.

13 Q. Does the name 17th Tactical Group mean anything to you?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Do you know Radovan Antic?

16 A. I do.

17 Q. Do you know that he was the commander of the 4th Detachment?

18 A. I don't know that.

19 Q. Do you know somebody called Jovo Savic?

20 A. No.

21 Q. So you don't know that man?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you know what was the zone of responsibility of the

24 4th Detachment?

25 A. I don't know.

1 Q. Do you know how many members the 4th Detachment had?

2 A. I don't know the exact number, no.

3 Q. Prior to the 17th of April, 1992, have you seen members of the

4 4th Detachment in uniforms and armed?

5 A. I saw them armed. I didn't see them in uniforms.

6 Q. Did you see them walking about the town of Samac with their arms,

7 or how did you see them?

8 A. I saw some of the members in Samac armed.

9 Q. Can you give me the names of these people?

10 A. For example, Goran Cicic, Damir Ibralic, Fadil Topcagic,

11 Denis Topcagic. And I couldn't really give you any other names. I've

12 truly forgotten them.

13 Q. When did you see them walking about the town of Samac armed?

14 A. I didn't see them together as a group. I would see them

15 individually, in various cafes, armed.

16 Q. These people that you just mentioned, all of them are Muslims,

17 aren't they?

18 A. No, not all of them.

19 Q. Who isn't?

20 A. Goran Cicic, Damir Ibralic.

21 Q. You never saw the list of the members of the 4th Detachment, have

22 you?

23 A. No, I have not.

24 Q. And you never saw the entire 4th Detachment lined up; is that

25 right?

1 A. No, it's not right.

2 Q. So you saw the entire 4th Detachment lined up?

3 A. No, I did not see it.

4 Q. Very well. Now let's turn to another topic, involving the events

5 of the 17th of April, 1992. You already replied to the questions put to

6 you by Mr. Krgovic, and I will try to avoid repeating these questions, but

7 there are certain details that need to be clarified.

8 On the 17th of April, 1992, in the morning, around 7.00, were you

9 together with your uncle, Galib Nurkic? Yes or no, please.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Were you hiding in his house?

12 A. I had nobody to hide from. I simply came there, spent a brief

13 amount of time there, and went back to my apartment, just as I've told

14 you.

15 Q. Did your mother come to your uncle's house on that occasion?

16 A. No. I don't know. When I came to the apartment, my mother wasn't

17 there.

18 Q. Do you know that it was precisely your uncle, Galib Nurkic, who

19 told your mother that you were with him in his apartment?

20 A. No. I don't know about that. How could I know about that?

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

22 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, yesterday counsel for Miroslav Tadic

23 asked some questions in relation to an interview that this witness's

24 mother had given.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

1 MR. WEINER: And we had some disagreement between two counsel as

2 to whether or not such testimony was admissible. This witness testified

3 that maybe the statement that she gave, maybe his mother got it wrong or

4 it was recorded incorrectly. I have the statement in front of me, and the

5 statement, as I told you yesterday, was given on the 2nd of May, and it

6 says 1950, which I believe is probably 1998. It's incorrect. However, on

7 the last page of the statement, it says:

8 "This statement was not reread to the witness," meaning this

9 witness's mother, "and therefore, the witness has not had an opportunity

10 to verify or acknowledge the accuracy and truth of the statement."

11 So what Defence counsel is doing is they're attempting to impeach

12 this witness, that's on the stand now, with statements based on an

13 interview from this witness's mother, which have never been verified or

14 have never been reviewed or reread by the witness. So we don't even know

15 if this is an accurate statement. As a result, I'd argue, based on our

16 policy in this case of using one witness to impeach another witness,

17 unless it's done directly from the witness stand, I'd request that such

18 questioning cease at this point.

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, if I remember correctly my own

20 words, I never said, not in one word, that I was using his mother's

21 statement.

22 MR. WEINER: Then --

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: Maybe this is the conclusion that my learned

24 friend has, but I never impeached the witness through his mother's

25 statement. I never asked him to comment on his mother's statement. I'm

1 asking him about certain facts. And this is not only his mother's

2 statement that is the source of our informations. We also have some other

3 informations, and in due course I will tell this witness where these

4 informations come from. So I don't think that this objection has any

5 basis.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well, Mr. Lazarevic.

7 Mr. Weiner, let's proceed.

8 MR. WEINER: All right.

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Subasic, we have certain information. You have just now heard

11 what the Prosecutor said, and I will not refer to your mother's statement,

12 but however, we have other sources of information, and I will now present

13 that to you. The questions are quite simple. You can give us yes or no

14 answers or you can say that you don't remember.

15 So we left it off at that spot where we spoke about your uncle,

16 Galib Nurkic, and the fact that you spent the entire 17th of April hiding

17 in his house, that your mother came, that she talked to you, and that you

18 told her that you did not dare go back home because you had heard that

19 Serbs were going around Samac arresting people. Is that right?

20 A. No, that's not correct.

21 Q. Did your uncle, Galib Nurkic, visit Bosanski Samac last year?

22 A. I think that it was last year. I can't remember whether it was

23 the last year or the year before the last. It could be the one before the

24 last.

25 Q. Do you know that what I just told you is something that your

1 uncle, Galib Nurkic, said in front of a number of citizens of Bosanski

2 Samac?

3 A. Do you have that written out and signed by him?

4 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... the witness.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Subasic, we are back again. Please answer the

6 questions put to you by counsel. Do not ask counsel any questions.

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Do you know that your uncle, Galib Nurkic, stated this in the

9 presence of a large number of residents of Bosanski Samac?

10 A. I don't know that, and I don't believe that he stated something

11 like that.

12 Q. If I tell you that your uncle stated this in front of Ratko

13 Tubakovic and Lazo Markovic, called Devetka, would that help you refresh

14 your memory?

15 A. How could that refresh my memory if I wasn't present there? I

16 left Samac in 1992 and never returned.

17 Q. Mr. Subasic, let's go back to April of 1992. You knew that your

18 uncle had an automatic weapon called Kalashnikov; is that right?

19 A. That he had what?

20 Q. That your uncle, Galib Nurkic, had that.

21 A. No, I didn't know that.

22 Q. Did you know that he was given that weapon by the SDA party?

23 A. I didn't know about that, and I don't believe that he could

24 receive that from the party, because he was never a member of that party.

25 Q. Do you know that the SDA party kept a record of weapons issued?

1 A. It probably did, but since I wasn't a member, I don't know about

2 their records and how they kept them.

3 Q. So you don't know?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Mr. Subasic, in your testimony before this Tribunal, you said that

6 on the 17th of April, at around 8.00 a.m. - this is the way I understood

7 it - that you saw your very good friend Esad Dagovic at a distance of

8 about 20 to 30 metres from his home. Do you remember that?

9 A. I do remember.

10 Q. Apart from Mr. Esad Dagovic, did you on that occasion see

11 Hasan Bicic, nicknamed Hasa?

12 A. No, I didn't see him.

13 Q. Let me ask you a question about a certain number of names, and

14 could you please say if you saw them or not. So just reply with yes or

15 no. Nusret Kapetanovic? Did you see Nusret Kapetanovic too?

16 A. I don't know that person. I really don't know who he is.

17 Q. Suad Dujmonic [phoen]?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Damir Dzakic?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Ferhat Sahacic?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Muharem Drljacic?

24 A. I don't know who that person is at all.

25 Q. Well, if you don't know who that person is, please say so.

1 Mirsad Srna.

2 A. I saw him in the street.

3 Q. Salko Srna?

4 A. No, I didn't see him. I don't remember seeing him.

5 Q. Muharem Jasarevic?

6 A. I don't remember seeing him.

7 Q. Suad Hodzic?

8 A. I don't know him.

9 Q. Fadil Sabanovic?

10 A. I didn't see him.

11 Q. Osman Mesic?

12 A. I don't know him. When I say I don't know those persons, that

13 would mean that I simply perhaps don't know their names.

14 Q. Ratif Atic?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Kemal Atic?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Your neighbour, Dervis Halilovic, nicknamed Dedo?

19 A. No, I didn't see him either.

20 Q. What about Kemal Mehinovic, the baker, Kemal?

21 A. No, I didn't see him either.

22 Q. Izet Ramusovic, Haso?

23 A. I don't remember.

24 Q. Muhamed Bicic?

25 A. I didn't hear the name.

1 Q. Hasan's brother, Muhamed Bicic?

2 A. I didn't see him.

3 Q. Safet Dagovic, Esad's brother?

4 A. No, I didn't see Safet either.

5 Q. What about Ibrahim Salkic, Ibela?

6 A. You've already asked me about him. I didn't see him.

7 Q. Let me ask you about Pasaga Tihic, if you saw him then?

8 A. No, I didn't see him then.

9 Q. So on that occasion, at around 8.00 a.m. on the 17th of April, you

10 saw only Esad Dagovic?

11 A. Do you want me to enumerate all the people that I saw?

12 Q. Sure. It would be of great help.

13 A. Markica Nogic, Ivica Stipo, Kajo, Marko Dzemal [phoen], Tubakovic,

14 Rizo. I can't remember his last name, but he had the cafe called Cardak.

15 You probably know the person I'm talking about. My next-door neighbours

16 Husic Cicko, Zijad, Goran Mamuzic, Nikisa Boro Palisnica [phoen]. That's

17 as far as I can remember.

18 Q. I can see here that your memory is quite good, but in your

19 statement you mentioned only Esad Dagovic, and this is the first time that

20 you mentioned this, when I'm asking you?

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

22 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, you have to assume, number one, that he

23 was questioned concerning all these different people.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

25 MR. LAZAREVIC: Okay. I will go the other way.

1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Subasic, you already gave this statement to

2 the Prosecutors. We have this statement here before us and you also have

3 it before you. That's the statement dated the 25th of April and the 3rd

4 of May, 1998. In that statement you did not mention Esad Dagovic at all.

5 If you can check -- if you want to check it, you can do so, because you

6 have the statement before you. So if you find Esad Dagovic, please let me

7 know, because I was unable to find his name.

8 A. I didn't mention him because at that time nobody asked me about

9 him. Nobody asked me about the other people either.

10 Q. On that occasion, on the 17th of April, in the early morning, did

11 you see any Muslims from your town that were armed?

12 A. I really don't remember.

13 Q. According to our information, sir, you spent the entire day of the

14 17th outside of your apartment, and it was only on the 18th of April, in

15 the morning, that you returned to your apartment. Can you please confirm

16 that fact? Or do you still maintain that on the 17th of April, in the

17 morning, you were in your apartment?

18 A. When in the morning? Because I said that I was out between 6.30

19 and 8.00.

20 Q. All right. That you were in your apartment after 8.00 a.m.

21 A. Yes, I was.

22 Q. Let's move on now to the event when the soldiers came to your

23 apartment to gather weapons. You said that this happened on the 17th of

24 April. Could you please look at your statement, on page 3 --

25 MR. LAZAREVIC: For the benefit of my colleagues from the

1 Prosecution, it's page 2, first paragraph.

2 Q. [Interpretation] "The next morning, when I looked out of my

3 window, I saw many soldiers going from house to house."

4 Do you still maintain this?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. So this is happening on the 17th, in the morning; is that correct?

7 A. Yes. No, not in the morning; in the afternoon.

8 Q. Sir, there is a very big difference between "in the morning" and

9 "in the afternoon." In your statement, it says: "The next morning, when

10 I looked out of my window, I saw many soldiers." Do you want to amend

11 your testimony?

12 A. No, I do not.

13 MR. WEINER: I'd object to that.

14 A. I just want to tell you once again --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

16 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, when he testified in direct, we said

17 either the morning or the afternoon was the question that was asked to

18 him. He wasn't clear. He thought it was the afternoon, but he just

19 wasn't sure. There's no --

20 JUDGE MUMBA: The time when he saw the soldiers?

21 MR. WEINER: Correct. In his statement, he does say the morning;

22 however, when he did testify here, he's indicated morning or afternoon.

23 He's not that certain.

24 JUDGE WILLIAMS: In fact, I think, Mr. Weiner, if my memory serves

25 me correctly, yesterday he said late morning or afternoon.

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: Late morning. That's what I found in transcript,

2 so ...

3 Q. [Interpretation] Can you then tell us whether it was at around

4 9.00 or at around 7.00 or 8.00 in the evening? And let me remind you: We

5 are in the month of April and the days are short.

6 A. I don't remember the exact time when this happened because, after

7 all, more than ten years have passed.

8 Q. Before the soldiers appeared, how long had you been in the house?

9 Because you said that you had returned home at around 8.00 a.m.

10 A. Several hours perhaps, probably.

11 Q. Would that be an hour or two hours?

12 A. Several hours.

13 Q. All right. So you can't remember. Of course.

14 You said in your statement that Zaric and Tadic were in a military

15 vehicle. It was quite unclear to me, in fact, so could you please clarify

16 what kind of a military vehicle it was? Was it a car that was used by

17 military? Was it a jeep? Was it a self-propelled vehicle? Was it a

18 tank. Could you please tell me, what was it?

19 A. It was some kind of a personnel carrier.

20 Q. Okay. It was a personnel carrier. Were Zaric and Tadic sitting

21 inside or outside of the carrier?

22 A. It was some kind of a pinzgauer vehicle. They were standing on

23 the vehicle at the time when I saw them.

24 Q. So they were standing on the vehicle that was open, that was

25 roofless, and I suppose that there was some kind of a canvas cover, if it

1 was possible to open it that way?

2 A. Probably.

3 Q. Where were the other soldiers?

4 A. Around the vehicle.

5 Q. Your entrance in that building, in Edvarda Kardelja Street, is the

6 first entrance?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. On that occasion, when Zaric and Tadic allegedly came, which other

9 neighbours of yours were present there, I mean those from your entrance,

10 entrance number 1?

11 A. I think that Dr. Ruza was there, but I'm not sure.

12 Q. I think so too.

13 And as regards this lady doctor by the name of Ruza, that would be

14 Ruza Brdar Masic; that's her full name. When we talk about her, she is a

15 relative of your wife, Vera?

16 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I don't know.

17 Q. The reason why I'm asking you this is because on several occasions

18 your personal details indicate that a doctor who lives in the same

19 building, in the same entrance as you do, is a relative of your wife, so I

20 just wanted to clarify whether this is Dr. Ruza Brdar Masic.

21 A. Well, that's the doctor, but I don't know whether she is related

22 to my wife or not.

23 Q. Well, I will not belabour this point.

24 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, where in the statement does -- is that

25 indicated?

1 JUDGE MUMBA: What?

2 MR. WEINER: He just stated that your personal details indicated

3 on several occasions that Dr. Ruza was a relative of your wife, and I'm

4 asking where in the statement is it?

5 MR. LAZAREVIC: I will have that in a very short moment, because I

6 have a lot of statements here. Maybe this was not his statement, maybe it

7 was --

8 MR. WEINER: It's not his statement.

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: On some other witnesses --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Some other witness --

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: -- what we do is compare some --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: I do apologise. I didn't really want to mislead.

14 I just needed the information if this --

15 MR. WEINER: No problem.

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: -- person is in family relationship with his

17 wife.

18 Q. [Interpretation] Okay. Let's continue where we left off. When

19 the weapons were collected, was your mother in your apartment?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So at that time, when, according to your testimony, Messrs. Tadic

22 and Zaric entered the building with a number of soldiers, she was in the

23 apartment

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was not your mother at the market at that time, where she wanted

1 to buy eggs, and that she, in fact, returned when everything was over?

2 A. You're talking about the market, but what time are you talking

3 about?

4 Q. At the time when the event concerning the collection of weapons in

5 the building number 64 Edvarda Kardelja Street, entrance number 1, at that

6 time when Zaric and Tadic allegedly were in the building together with

7 several soldiers, is it true that your mother was on the market at the

8 time to buy eggs and that she returned later, when everything was over?

9 A. This probably isn't correct.

10 Q. Before this Trial Chamber, you said that, apart from Zaric and

11 Tadic, there were between 10 and 15 soldiers there. Do you remember

12 saying that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you tell me the names of the soldiers that were there at the

15 time with Tadic and Zaric, as you say?

16 A. I can't tell you, because I don't really remember.

17 Q. Can you remember at least one name out of the 10 or 15?

18 A. Well, if you were to refresh my memory, because you did the same

19 thing a little while ago when you mentioned the persons relating to my

20 uncle.

21 Q. But did you personally know any of the 10 or 15 soldiers?

22 A. Maybe, but I don't remember their names.

23 Q. Of course, if you can't remember, you can't remember. On that

24 occasion, was the apartment of Dr. Ruza Brdar searched? You said you were

25 there. Do you remember if her apartment was searched?

1 A. I really don't remember. I think that they only entered the

2 apartment and had a very quick perfunctory look. They didn't really

3 search.

4 Q. In relation to this event, we have totally different information

5 from the information contained in your testimony. According to our

6 information, neither Mr. Zaric nor Mr. Tadic, nor any of the soldiers,

7 entered the apartment where you lived; quite the contrary.

8 One of the soldiers rang your bell, asked you for a glass of

9 water, you gave him a glass of water, and that's all that happened as part

10 of that incident. Is our information correct?

11 A. No. It's possible that the soldier had a drink of water when he

12 got in. My apartment was not searched as thoroughly as Dedo's apartment.

13 They didn't break anything, they didn't take anything. They asked me if I

14 had any weapons. I said I didn't. So it was just talking.

15 Q. You don't really consider that to be an incident at all?

16 A. Well, it is an incident if you have five or six armed people enter

17 your apartment where your little child is. It would qualify as an

18 incident.

19 Q. Did you depict this entire incident as you -- did you tell your

20 mother when she came home from the market, when everything was over, did

21 you tell her that a soldier merely asked you for a glass of water and that

22 you gave him a glass of water? Is this what you said to your mother?

23 A. My mother was --

24 MR. WEINER: Number one, how is it relevant what conversation he

25 had with his mother?

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

2 MR. WEINER: What is the relevance of what conversation he had

3 with his mother?

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lazarevic.

5 MR. LAZAREVIC: I can explain that, Your Honour. I mean, we are

6 using all possible evidence that we can. All the informations that we

7 have, and our colleague from the Prosecution are aware where we got this

8 information from.

9 MR. WEINER: Yes.

10 MR. LAZAREVIC: The thing is that it has relevance, of course,

11 that if this witness spoke with his mother, and about the incident, where

12 he said that allegedly five soldiers came inside his -- and scared his

13 children and everything, and if he says to his mother, "Mother, nothing

14 actually happened. There was one soldier asking for a glass of water,"

15 then we do believe that it is relevant for our case.

16 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, when I objected previously concerning

17 impeaching this witness --

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner. You are thinking that the source

19 of his information is the statement --

20 MR. WEINER: He just said: You know where I got this statement.

21 It's right here. This is --

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: I said that. I said to my colleague of the

23 Prosecution --

24 MR. WEINER: He said, "You know where I got this statement."

25 MR. LAZAREVIC: I never stated this to the witness.

1 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, he's using is it. You can't do that.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lazarevic.

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: Okay.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: You know the objection of the Prosecution, and

5 please do not repeat that.

6 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. I will move on.

7 [Defence counsel confer]

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Unless in your Defence case you are going to call a

9 witness who perhaps was present --

10 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, of course. Your Honours, I cannot be 100 per

11 cent certain if I am going to call one of the witnesses, because, you see,

12 we did have certain problems about approaching ex-Prosecution witnesses,

13 and at this moment I cannot be 100 per cent of that. Because I'm going to

14 have to go through Prosecution or some other way to get these witnesses.

15 I would like --

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well, but --

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: I will proceed.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Do be honest that you are not using the statement.

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. I will proceed.

20 Q. [Interpretation] Did Dr. Brdar Masic, who you say was present

21 there, was she in the corridor and was she able to observe everything that

22 was going on?

23 A. Even if she had been in the corridor, I don't remember where she

24 was, because Dr. Ruza lived on one floor below us, and I don't really know

25 where she was. So she wouldn't have been able to see us anyway. Later on

1 I realised -- I saw that she was at home and she came up to see us and we

2 talked.

3 Q. So you don't remember. But sir, on the 17th of April, my client,

4 Mr. Simo Zaric, was not in Samac at all. He was in Pelagicevo. Do you

5 perhaps allow that this may have been some other day?

6 A. I don't remember.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer. We

8 didn't hear him very well.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The witness's answer wasn't picked up by the

10 interpreters.

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. Well, actually, he said: "I don't remember

12 that well," I think. We have his answer.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, yes.

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure whether we heard it

15 correctly.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I didn't say "I don't

17 remember." I said I did not want to change my testimony.

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. All right. The record will be amended accordingly.

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe his answer is now recorded.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. All right. We're back on the 17th in the morning hours. You said

24 in your testimony that you didn't notice anything peculiar in the town

25 apart from the fact that some soldiers were in the Cafe AS. Do you

1 remember that?

2 A. Yes, in front of the Cafe AS.

3 Q. Did you recognise any of the soldiers?

4 A. I did, but I don't remember -- but I did know more or less all of

5 them, but I can't now give you the names.

6 Q. All right. I will not insist. Just one more question. Your

7 grandmother, she died in December 1993, if my information is correct. Is

8 that true?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. She had a kidney disease; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Throughout 1992, and up until the time when she died in 1993, she

13 underwent dialysis in Samac; is that correct?

14 A. Probably, yes, but I can't tell you with any certainty because I

15 was imprisoned.

16 Q. She is of Muslim ethnicity; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to move on to another topic, and

19 that's your transfer from the TO building to the military barracks in

20 Brcko. Can you please tell me whether that took place on the 26th of

21 April, 1992?

22 A. Yes, in the night of the 26th of April.

23 Q. At that time, when the two military trucks, together with the

24 military police officers, came in, were you inside the TO building or were

25 you perhaps in the courtyard?

1 A. We were inside, in the small room inside the TO building.

2 Q. On that occasion, did you see Grga Zubak in there?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. So when he was put on the truck, he was taken out of the TO

5 building and put onto the truck?

6 A. Yes, from the small room.

7 Q. Had he been crouching behind the door somewhere, if you can

8 remember?

9 A. I don't think he was behind the door. He was in the left-hand

10 corner, facing the door. That's where he and Mr. Izetbegovic were.

11 Q. And then Simo Zaric, Savo Cancarevic, and Mihaljo Topolovac

12 entered that room; is that right?

13 A. I don't remember, really.

14 Q. Do you remember seeing Simo Zaric on that occasion at all?

15 A. On that night, no.

16 Q. In any case, you were later on transferred to Brcko, and if I

17 understand your testimony correctly, the conditions were better in Brcko

18 as compared to those in Samac in the TO and the treatment you had there;

19 is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now let me ask you another matter regarding this transfer. Do you

22 remember, by any chance, who read out the names of the people who were to

23 be transferred from the TO to Brcko?

24 A. I can't remember.

25 Q. When you arrived in Brcko, you said that on the following day,

1 Simo Zaric came and took away Sulejman Tihic, and perhaps even Omer Nalic,

2 back to Samac to give an interview, and then you went on to say what Tihic

3 told you afterwards about it. Do you remember that?

4 A. Yes, I remember saying that. I remember a hundred per cent that

5 Simo Zaric came to Brcko then.

6 Q. Mr. Subasic, that's not contentious at all. Mr. Zaric did come to

7 Brcko on the following day. However, he claims that on that occasion he

8 didn't take with him either Sulejman Tihic or anybody else. He said that

9 he simply came to ensure that you were doing well, that everybody arrived

10 there well, and that he and other people brought with them apples,

11 sandwiches, and cigarettes to be distributed to all of you who had been

12 transferred from Samac, and that after several days, Sulejman Tihic was

13 taken to Samac, but not in the company of Zaric. Some other persons took

14 Tihic, Nalic, and Hadzialijagic with them on another occasion. Can you

15 confirm that?

16 A. I stated that I remembered with certainty that it was on the

17 following day that Zaric came to Brcko but that I wasn't quite sure when

18 were the others taken to give the interview.

19 Q. Thank you very much. This is something that fits with the

20 information that we have.

21 I would like to ask you a few questions regarding Esad Dagovic.

22 You have already told us that Esad Dagovic was a very good friend of yours

23 and that you knew him from your childhood.

24 A. Yes. We grew up together.

25 Q. And you said that you had talked to him and that Esad Dagovic was

1 supposed to come to the States for a vacation and that this is what you

2 talked about during your last conversation; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Sir, yesterday you testified here and replied to questions put to

5 you by Mr. Pantelic regarding (redacted) , and then you said that you

6 followed all trials on Internet so far. Do you remember saying that?

7 A. Well, I didn't say that I followed all trials, but a lot of them.

8 Q. Well, I presume that you, as somebody who is from Samac, would

9 consider this case to be the most interesting one. Is that right?

10 A. What do you mean, "this case"?

11 Q. Well, I mean this current trial, the Samac trial, in which you're

12 testifying.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And I suppose that you were mostly interested in this trial and

15 that you followed this trial the most on Internet.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So did you follow this trial in real time?

18 A. Yes, with a 30-minute delay.

19 Q. So you must have heard what other witnesses said here.

20 A. I heard Dragan Delic, Kalaja Nusreta, so Nusret Kalaja, Safet

21 Dagovic.

22 Q. Did you by any chance follow the testimony of Kemal Mehinovic?

23 A. No, I didn't.

24 THE INTERPRETER: The witness also -- the interpreters note, the

25 witness also mentioned another name that we did not catch.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lazarevic.

2 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: The interpreters are saying there was another name.

4 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. I will slow down and I just have a couple of

5 others -- well, let me check.

6 Q. [Interpretation] I think that the name of Slavko Cuka [phoen] was

7 mentioned but was not recorded. So can you please just confirm that for

8 me. Is that in fact (redacted) ?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. Prior to testifying here, you had information about

11 what certain other witnesses said in evidence here before this Tribunal.

12 A. Yes, if it was in public session, it was available to everybody.

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: I have no further questions.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

15 MR. WEINER: Just a few minutes.

16 Re-examined by Mr. Weiner:

17 Q. Sir, you mentioned your grandmother's death in December 1993. At

18 that point you were imprisoned in Batkovici. Were you allowed to attend

19 your grandmother's funeral?

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I believe I have to object to that.

21 I mean, this is not related to my cross-examination, the death of his

22 grandmother is one issue, the funeral is completely different issue. I

23 don't believe that --

24 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Mr. Lazarevic. It's the same.

25 Mr. Weiner can go ahead.

1 MR. WEINER:

2 Q. And a few other matters. Sir, you testified --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: We didn't get the answer.

4 MR. WEINER:

5 Q. I'm sorry. Sir, we didn't receive your answer as to whether or

6 not you attended your grandmother's funeral, whether they let you attend

7 the funeral.

8 A. No, I did not. They did not allow me.

9 Q. Now, what I'd like to do is go over a few of the dates. There was

10 a lot of discussion in relation to dates of certain situations that

11 occurred. Now, there was some question as to when you first saw Miroslav

12 Tadic, and you indicated in January of 1993. Previously, in your

13 statement, you said the following, and I'd ask you if this refreshes your

14 recollection or does this help clarify things to you.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I just wish to clarify, to try to be

17 more precise about this. Since the witness saw Tadic on a number of

18 occasions, I presume this question pertains to Batkovici, but could we

19 please specify whether this refers to January of 1993 so that we don't

20 confuse the witness.

21 MR. WEINER:

22 Q. This refers to Batkovici, and in your statement, sir, on page 5,

23 you state:

24 "I stayed in Batkovici until 9 June 1994. During my stay in

25 Batkovici, Tadic came several times. I think that the first time he came

1 to Batkovici was December 1992 or January 1993."

2 You made that statement in 1998. Based on that statement, is it

3 possible that Miroslav Tadic -- that you had first seen Miroslav Tadic in

4 December of 1992?

5 A. It is possible. I said that I thought I had seen him, but I'm not

6 sure now. If you will allow me, I can explain to you why it is that I'm

7 not certain about it.

8 Q. Please explain.

9 A. I was in prison for a long time there, and we were beaten quite a

10 lot and mistreated there. They separated me from my daughter for a whole

11 two years. I couldn't think about the dates and try to retain the dates.

12 All I thought about was whether I would live through the day, whether I

13 will have enough food, whether we will be beaten on any given day. So all

14 of these questions that have to do with the exact date, I don't know what

15 normal person would be able to retain all that information.

16 Q. All right. Let's continue on. You indicated that you got to the

17 primary school in May of 1992, and you thought you first saw

18 Miroslav Tadic there in June of 1992. Since there was an exchange on

19 May 26th, or towards the end of May, is it possible that you saw

20 Miroslav Tadic in May of 1992 at the primary school?

21 A. I already said that I did not remember the exact day when I saw

22 Miroslav Tadic. It could have been between May or August/September, when

23 we were transferred to the TO. I don't remember exactly what month it

24 was, but you can find it in my statement. So during that time when I was

25 in the elementary school, I saw him several times.

1 Q. Now, you indicated or you talked about Miroslav Tadic receiving a

2 bribe from Saban [phoen] Seric. Now, the record that was read to you

3 concerns a December 24th, 1992 exchange involving an individual with the

4 last name of Seric. The Saban Seric that you know, what -- approximately

5 what was his date of birth, or what year was he born?

6 A. I can just give you an approximation. He was born in 1954 or 1956

7 or 1958, somewhere there.

8 Q. The list of December 24th, 1992, talks about a Sahan Seric, with a

9 date of birth of 1950, who was the son of Hasan. Do you know that

10 individual?

11 A. I can't tell you with certainty. I really don't know.

12 Q. Finally, counsel said to you that you didn't mention -- said to

13 you in cross that you didn't mention the bribe to Miroslav Tadic from

14 Sahan of Saban, sorry, Seric. Now, do you recall in your 1998 statement

15 if you did, in fact, mention bribes being paid to Miroslav Tadic at

16 Batkovici?

17 A. I believe that I mentioned that in my statement.

18 Q. Do you recall saying the following:

19 "If a person that was on Tadic's list was not present, maybe,

20 because he was on forced labour, Tadic would cross out his name. Other

21 detainees would then approach Tadic, give him money, and Tadic would walk

22 out. Later, Tadic would come back and read the names of those who gave

23 him money. I saw four or five detainees giving money to Tadic. He always

24 accepted the money offered to him."

25 Do you recall saying that in 1998 to the investigators or having

1 that in your statement?

2 A. I remember that.

3 Q. And is that a true and accurate portrayal of what happened at

4 Batkovici in relation to Miroslav Tadic?

5 A. Fully.

6 MR. WEINER: No further questions, Your Honour.

7 Thank you, sir.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Subasic, for giving evidence to the

9 Tribunal. We are now finished with you and you may go.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We have three minutes to go. I think we've

12 finished. Tomorrow we'll continue after the Status Conference in the

13 afternoon, I think with Witness A. Yes.

14 Ms. Reidy?

15 MS. REIDY: And Your Honour, just since we have a minute, there --

16 should Witness A finish with his cross-examination tomorrow, if we have

17 enough time, then we will have another witness available to start straight

18 away if that's what the Trial Chamber would like, because I appreciate

19 that you said yesterday the witnesses could be released, but, in fact, we

20 kept one of them here, and we can continue straight ahead.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Because the Prosecution earlier on had asked

22 that they be released because nobody sure that we would finish. Yes.

23 Very well. We will continue.

24 MS. REIDY: Just so you know that one is available should we have

25 the time tomorrow.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll adjourn until tomorrow.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 18th day of July,

4 2002, at 3.45 p.m.

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25