1 Wednesday, 27 November 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case number

8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo

9 Zaric.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Thank you. Good afternoon, Your Honours.

12 WITNESS: MIRKO LUKIC [Resumed]

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Examined by Mr. Pantelic: [Continued]

15 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Lukic.

16 A. Good afternoon.

17 Q. We discussed a few documents yesterday, and we need to discuss a

18 few more today.

19 MR. PANTELIC: It's a decision of the executive board, dated 11th

20 of October, 1992. It's a decision on the transportation for the work

21 assignment, on the transport of persons who have compulsory work

22 obligation assignments.

23 MR. RE: Can I ask for the reference number.

24 MR. PANTELIC: Excuse me?

25 MR. RE: Your reference number.

1 MR. PANTELIC: The reference number is IO5.

2 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, could you please tell me who -- first

3 of all, are you familiar with this document, and could you please tell me

4 what the basis was for this decision by the executive council.

5 A. Yes. I remember this decision. The Crisis Staff reached a

6 decision to introduce a regular bus line and tasked the executive council

7 to work out this issue, and we adopted a decision that all persons who had

8 a work assignment could use public transport in the town, including the

9 buses of the companies who were allowed to operate, and they didn't have

10 to pay for this service. My duty was to make a contract with this company

11 in order to compensate them for the transport services for the current

12 month.

13 Q. Was this decision to include all the people who were under work

14 obligation, or were there any differences there?

15 A. All people, regardless of their ethnicity, used the free bus

16 transport from their place of work to their place of residence.

17 Q. Can you tell us how long this decision was in effect. Was it only

18 during 1992, or did it also apply in subsequent years?

19 A. It was in effect for quite a long time. In fact, throughout the

20 entire war.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have an exhibit number, if there is no

23 objection.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number, please.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. It will be Exhibit D114/1 and

1 D114/1 ter.

2 MR. PANTELIC: The next document that I would like to discuss with

3 the witness is -- our internal number is IO6. It's a decision issued by

4 the executive board -- municipal executive board on the 20th of November,

5 1992. I believe the decision is related to the conditions regarding the

6 economy and relations between economy subjects in the municipality.

7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, could you please tell me what you know

8 about this decision or this conclusion.

9 A. The Secretariat for the Economy monitored the work of the economic

10 subjects, i.e., the socially-owned enterprises and then in the month of

11 November came out with a proposal to begin to carry out a decentralisation

12 in terms of the operation and management of the socially-owned

13 enterprises. So this decision is -- its purpose is to make it possible to

14 make the conditions of work much better, and here it is stated what is

15 necessary to be done in the forthcoming period in order to carry out this

16 decentralisation.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have a number, please, Ms. Registrar.

19 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D115/1 and ter. Thank you.

20 MR. PANTELIC: The next document is IO7. This is a letter signed

21 by the vice-president of the executive board, dated 27th of November,

22 1992. It's a request for approval of the telephone lines between Modrica

23 and Samac.

24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, can you please tell me something about

25 this document, excuse me. I just want to interrupt you for a second. I

1 assume that you have signed it, because I see your first and last name at

2 the bottom of the document.

3 A. Yes, I signed it. And the document is as follows: On the 20th or

4 the 21st of April, 1992 our telephones were cut off -- or let's say it

5 better. The receiver in Gradacac was disrupted, which was under the

6 control of the Muslims, so that our receiver could not receive signals

7 through that receiver, and for that reason all the telephone connections

8 in the municipality were cut, and we were cut off from the rest of the

9 world. On that occasion, we tried through the railway company to resolve

10 at least the question of several telephone numbers, since the railway

11 company had its own telephone lines which were dug under the ground and

12 they had a special system and a special network. So I asked them to make

13 five phone numbers available to us, which we would distribute in various

14 institutions throughout the territory of the municipality. So this

15 request pertains to this matter that I've just talked about.

16 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibits D116/1 and D116/1 ter. Thank

17 you.

18 MR. PANTELIC: My next document that I would like to discuss with

19 this witness is -- is the -- the reference is IO8. This is a conclusion

20 or decision issued by the executive board on the 21st of December, 1992,

21 with regard to the health situation with the haemodialysis centre and

22 health issues in Samac.

23 Q. [Interpretation] I apologise. The copy is terrible -- at least,

24 the one that I have -- and I don't think that yours is any better. But if

25 you can recall, please tell us what did this decision pertain to. Very

1 briefly.

2 A. Yesterday I commented on the report from the business trip of the

3 chief of the haemodialysis department of the hospital and the head of the

4 Red Cross, and this is the conclusion in accordance with which they went

5 to Belgrade and Vrsac so ask for assistance regarding the kidney

6 machines, or also medicines that are used in haemodialysis. So this was a

7 request sent to Yugoslav doctors, to Doctors Without Borders, and also to

8 the medicines factory Hemofarm in Vrsac.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have a number for this document, please.

11 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibits D117/1 and D117/1 ter. Thank

12 you.

13 MR. PANTELIC: The next document is with reference IO9. This is a

14 decision issued by the executive -- municipal executive board on the 24th

15 of December, 1992, a decision on the establishment of a subcommission for

16 the reception and temporary accommodation of refugees.

17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, you already talked about the problems

18 because of the number of the refugees and also the general situation in

19 Samac, so I'm asking you, please, to comment briefly on this decision, if

20 you know what the basis was for this decision and if you know what its

21 purpose was.

22 A. The government of Republika Srpska passed a law on refugees, and

23 under the regulations of that law a republican commission was formed to

24 receive and accommodate those refugees. Then it was necessary in the

25 municipalities to form municipal subcommissions which would together with

1 the republican commission work on the resettlement of those refugees, and

2 this decision talks about how these persons as representatives of the

3 municipality were obliged in coordination with the republican commission

4 for refugees to work to receive and settle those refugees in the territory

5 of the municipality. So this pertained to all the persons, all the

6 refugees who came to our municipality and were sent to our municipality by

7 the republican commission for refugees.

8 Q. Even though you know the composition of this commission and that

9 the people who were on the commission had specific professions, could you

10 please tell us something about that. Who were the people in the

11 committee -- commission? What was their profession? And did that have

12 any significance in relation to the accommodation of the refugees?

13 Briefly.

14 A. Let me tell you first this: This committee was a multinational

15 one. The composition of the members of the committee was determined by

16 those who were supposed to come to our municipality. So these were

17 workers from the centres for social work, commissioner for refugees, a

18 physician, and representatives of the executive council.

19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have a number, please.

21 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibits D118/1 and D118/1 ter. Thank

22 you.

23 MR. PANTELIC: Another document is reference IO10. This is a

24 letter signed by the executive board and sent to the -- to the telephone

25 and post company, dated 14th of January, 1993.

1 Q. [Interpretation] You've already spoken about the problems that

2 existed with telephone lines. I assume that this memo, although it dates

3 from 1993, is linked to the previous memo that we've looked at and is also

4 directed at resolving the same problem with telephone lines. So just

5 briefly, please.

6 A. The previous memo from 1992 was not sufficient for us to solve the

7 problem with telephone lines. Now, this new memo we sent in order to

8 request the socially-owned companies from Republika Srpska to do their

9 utmost to install the equipment which would link the entire municipality

10 through telephone connection.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have a number, please.

12 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibits D119/1 and ter. Thank you.

13 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] The following document - and I

14 think that's the last document from this set of documents - [In English]

15 The reference number is IO11. This is a conclusion of the executive

16 board -- the municipal executive board with regard to the trade

17 enterprises in the area of the municipality, dated 28th of January, 1993.

18 Q. [Interpretation] This is another operational document similar to

19 those that were discharged on a daily level. But just give us a few

20 comments regarding it.

21 A. This document stemmed from the work programme of the municipal

22 assembly for 1993. The Secretariat for Economy was tasked with creating

23 information on the quality and level of supplies of consumer goods in our

24 municipality. The Secretariat for Economy was supposed to do this in

25 cooperation with the Secretary for Commerce.

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have a number, please.

3 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibits D120/1 and ter. Thank you.

4 MR. PANTELIC:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, we have completed the analysis of a

6 small part of documents that the Defence has prepared as part of its case

7 in order to illustrate to the Trial Chamber the way the municipality and

8 its organs functioned. This was just a small fragment of their total

9 work. I would like now to ask you for your opinion, for your position

10 regarding the description of the work of administrative municipal organs

11 from April 1992 until late 1993. We heard from you a lot of comments that

12 were given with respect to various documents, but could you summarise that

13 for us and give us your conclusion. What was the work of municipal organs

14 like in that period of time?

15 A. I will attempt to contain my answer in just a few sentences. Let

16 me start by saying that in 1992 the executive council did not work with

17 full membership. It had to work in extremely difficult conditions with a

18 backlog of problems. The intense shelling of the town and surrounding

19 villages, due to the fact that our municipality is stretched along the

20 front lines, either with the Croatian or the Muslim side, is something

21 that created problems in addition to the problems that existed with

22 engaging people to perform their work obligation, ensuring that the

23 military consented to people being exempted from the military service in

24 order to serve their work obligation.

25 On top of all that, we had a problem with a large influx of

1 displaced persons and refugees that came into our municipality during

2 1992, but those municipal employees and members of the executive council

3 that worked during 1992 have done their utmost to meet the obligations of

4 the executive council and to ensure that every citizen that applied to the

5 executive council or to relevant agencies encountered understanding on

6 their part and received a reply that was requested.

7 Q. In the work of the municipal administration, were there any cases

8 of ethnic discrimination? Were some ethnic groups favoured or were these

9 efforts made by employees and members of the executive council directed to

10 all residents, irrespective of their ethnic background?

11 A. In administration organs, those who worked there were

12 professionals, those who worked in the administration even prior to the

13 eruption of the conflict. And all three ethnic groups were represented

14 among them. The number of Serbs was greater, however. There was Croats

15 and Muslims in the administration as well.

16 Q. Tell me, please, this now: The activity of the municipal

17 administration aimed at resolving the problems that the population

18 encountered, was it selective in view of certain ethnic groups or was it

19 driven by the desire to provide everything that all residents in Samac

20 municipality needed?

21 MR. RE: I object.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Re.

23 MR. RE: That's three leading questions, and very loaded leading

24 questions in that question my learned friend was putting to the witness.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic, the objection is sustained. Can

1 you reorganise your questions.

2 MR. PANTELIC: I'll rephrase.

3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, what is your personal belief and your

4 personal knowledge regarding the aim, the purpose of the efforts made by

5 the municipal administration?

6 A. There was no discrimination whatsoever. The interests of everyone

7 were protected.

8 Q. But regardless of all of your efforts, in Samac, due to the state

9 of war and the situation that existed, certain incidents broke out. Now,

10 please tell me, what do you know about a certain number of volunteers that

11 came to the territory of Samac municipality?

12 A. I can say that I first heard that they had arrived. That was

13 sometime in late April. Yes -- oh, no, rather, early April. I saw some

14 of them in the street in passing; however, I didn't have any contact with

15 them.

16 Q. Throughout 1992, did municipal organs have contacts with a certain

17 number of those volunteers under some circumstances?

18 A. I have no information regarding that. I'm not aware of that.

19 Q. During those first few months, did they come to the building where

20 the executive municipal organs were housed? How did they behave? Do you

21 have any knowledge regarding this?

22 A. In the course of May or June I noticed on several occasions that

23 Dragan Djurdjevic came to see Milan Simic.

24 Q. Now, tell me, please, have you heard about the incident which took

25 place in Crkvina in the first half of May of 1992 whereby Lugar killed a

1 certain number of non-Serb residents of Samac?

2 A. Unfortunately, I have heard about that. That was on the following

3 day. I received this information from the chief of police, Savo

4 Cancarevic. And let me just tell you that I had goose bumps all over me.

5 Both of us were horrified as he was telling me this story.

6 MR. LAZAREVIC: Just for a second.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

8 MR. LAZAREVIC: Here in the transcript we have, "I received this

9 information from the chief of police, Savo Cancarevic." It's line 11 --

10 it's page 11, line 1 and 2. We used these words "chief of police" for

11 Mr. Stevan Todorovic. He said actually, "the commander of the police."

12 Because -- just not to have something in the transcript that would -- that

13 may cause maybe some misunderstanding.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you.

15 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Can you tell me, please, what was the official post of Mr. Savo

17 Cancarevic, whom you've mentioned in your previous answer.

18 A. Savo Cancarevic was the commander of the police station.

19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pantelic.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Just for the sake of clarify right now, then,

22 could Mr. Lukic tell us what is the difference between the chief of police

23 and the commander of the police, just to have it on the record.

24 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Could you please explain this to Her Honour Williams.

1 A. The police organisation looks like this: Minister of the

2 Interior, Minister of Police, head of the public security centre, and then

3 within that public security centre there is a number of police stations,

4 and then below that is the Public Security Station. At the head of the

5 Public Security Station is a chief of the Public Security Station, and

6 then within the station itself there are several departments: Police,

7 criminal investigation department, general department, department for

8 traffic, licences and traffic, and the financial department. At the helm

9 of all of these departments is the chief of police, and one of the

10 departments is headed by the commander of police.

11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you. So I take it from your answer, then,

12 that Mr. Stevan Todorovic was senior to Mr. Savo Cancarevic.

13 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes.

14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

15 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Now, tell me, please, on that occasion did Savo Cancarevic or

17 somebody else tell you what legal steps would be taken or who would be in

18 charge of the investigation? Did he tell you this then or perhaps at a

19 later time? Just tell us what you know.

20 A. I naturally asked him who was the perpetrator of that crime, and

21 he told me that it was Lugar and that the investigation had been launched

22 and was ongoing, which meant that I shouldn't put any more questions to

23 him.

24 Q. In mid-May and further on in 1992 and in 1993, did the Croat

25 residents of Samac -- were they ever forcibly placed at vital facilities

1 in town?

2 A. I'm not aware of any such cases.

3 Q. Since you lived in Samac as a citizen and held an office there,

4 please tell me, what do you personally know about certain incidents and

5 crimes committed by Stevan Todorovic? First of all, do you know whether

6 he committed anything of this nature?

7 A. I have to say that at that time I heard, also from Savo

8 Cancarevic, that Stevan killed a man and that they were conducting an

9 inquiry at the centre for public security regarding the circumstances of

10 that event. But until I saw a published indictment or until I talked to

11 persons who returned after 1996 to town, I didn't really know much about

12 it.

13 Q. How would you describe the relationship between Blagoje Simic and

14 Stevan Todorovic in that period, 1993, if possible? How did you see that?

15 A. From 1992, from the 17th of April, 1992 and until the end of 1992,

16 I didn't see either one of those men very often, but I heard that their

17 relationship wasn't really great and that there were some conflicts in the

18 work of each man. I heard that from Milan Simic, the president of the

19 executive council.

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters ask for the witness again to

21 repeat the date. Was it 1992 or 1993 that the question pertained to?

22 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Since in my question -- [In English] Yes. My question was the

24 period from April 1992 until the end of 1993. [Interpretation] So I asked

25 you about this period, because of the transcript -- we were talking about

1 the period from April of 1992 to the end of 1993; is that right?

2 A. Yes, yes, that's right.

3 Q. What was the relationship of Stevan Todorovic with other municipal

4 officials from other services? Do you have any details or any particular

5 information regarding his conduct that you can tell us about? Was he a

6 man who was a cooperative man or --

7 A. In the course of 1992, he didn't come to the executive council,

8 but I did see that he visited Milan Simic. I did see him in his office

9 quite often. But as far as I know, other members of the executive council

10 didn't socialise or didn't have many meetings with him.

11 Q. Since you're a lawyer from the legal profession, could you please

12 tell me who is in charge of conducting criminal investigations. Who was

13 in charge in the period of April 1992 to the end of 1993, since that is

14 the period covered by the indictment?

15 A. The police and the civilian prosecutor, if we're talking about

16 civilians.

17 Q. What about the other category? What did you mean?

18 A. If they were members of the military, then that was under the

19 jurisdiction of the military prosecutor and the military court.

20 Q. Since your office was in the municipal building which is on the

21 banks of the river Sava and since the TO building is across the street

22 from that building, did you ever hear any kind of cries or moaning or did

23 you hear any sounds of beatings from the TO? If you heard anything, tell

24 us. And if not, just say so.

25 A. I can say that the municipal building is about 15 or 20 metres

1 away from the edge of the TO building, the side of the TO building, and I

2 did not hear any cries, but I often did hear singing from the TO

3 headquarters building and I heard that several persons were singing the

4 same song. After work hours I lived in a village which was 11 kilometres

5 away from town.

6 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pantelic.

7 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Lukic, you heard the same song being sung a

9 few times. Did you recognise the song? Would you be able to tell us what

10 type of song it was?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I can say that they were

12 singing Serbian songs, those songs that were usually sung by Serbs.

13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

14 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Could this song be heard -- could this singing also be heard from

16 the heating plant?

17 A. I'm sorry, could you repeat your question. I didn't hear it.

18 Q. Well, could you hear that singing also from the heating plant

19 building and how far was that heating plant away from the municipal

20 building?

21 A. I don't think that it could be heard, because the heating plant is

22 about 2 kilometres away from the municipal building, if not more. It's at

23 the other end of town.

24 Q. And can you determine the time period when you heard this

25 singing? Was this over the next several months? Was that during the

1 entire 1992? Was it during 1993? Could you please give us some kind of

2 time frame about that.

3 A. This was in the course of 1992, and I cannot remember that it

4 happened again subsequently, that it was ever heard afterwards.

5 Q. What is your knowledge about the detained persons in Samac? Were

6 there any such persons? How many of them, if you know? Where were they

7 detained and on what grounds?

8 A. Since I didn't have any contacts with Stevan Todorovic, I was

9 interested not as a person who was responsible but as a citizen, since I

10 was performing completely different kind of work. So I was interested to

11 know what kind of people were there at the TO building, the TO

12 headquarters. I had this conversation with Savo Cancarevic, since he used

13 to stop by my office frequently requesting cigarettes for the police or

14 tins of food for policemen, since they had to go out to the line. And

15 then he told me that in the TO headquarters building and in the secondary

16 school, in the high school there were certain persons who were under

17 investigation, certain investigative procedures were being conducted about

18 those people, and they were the ones who were carrying out these operative

19 inquiries or tasks. And as far as the number is concerned, he said that

20 the figure was around 300 persons.

21 Q. Did you find out from him or from someone else what these people

22 were suspected of doing?

23 A. Yes. He told me on that occasion that there were indications that

24 some of those people were preparing an armed rebellion, that weapons were

25 found on some of those people, military weapons, and that the

1 investigative proceedings were being carried out at that time.

2 Q. And finally, could you please tell me the following: What is your

3 personal opinion on the following. Was there any kind of plan in the work

4 of the municipal bodies in that period to jeopardise human rights of the

5 non-Serb population in Samac?

6 MR. RE: I object to that.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Re.

8 MR. RE: The witness's opinion is irrelevant. The Trial Chamber

9 should be interested in facts, what he knew as opposed to his opinion on

10 this particular matter.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

12 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. In the work of your municipal administration and the town

14 administration, did you ever discuss or adopt any decisions which were

15 aimed at jeopardising the human rights of non-Serb citizens in Samac?

16 A. No.

17 MR. PANTELIC: No further questions for this witness, Your

18 Honour. Thank you.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other counsel from the Defence? Mr. Lukic --

20 oh, I'm sorry, the Judge has a question first.

21 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Yes. I -- the day before yesterday I asked

22 you -- you presented a document signed RH27, and you said that you will

23 come back to it later on. You haven't done so, so I ask you whether you

24 are tendering it into evidence or not.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I believe that we have discussed

1 yesterday. Could you just read me the title of that document, please.

2 JUDGE LINDHOLM: "Decision on the working hours of administration

3 organs, economic and other," and so on. But you haven't referred to this

4 document.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was discussed.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I have -- I have -- I have information

7 that we tendered that into evidence yesterday, and also just now the

8 witness confirmed that. Maybe we could -- we could --

9 JUDGE LINDHOLM: It hasn't any number.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we verify with the registry, please.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document was admitted.

12 JUDGE LINDHOLM: When?

13 THE REGISTRAR: On the 26th of November. And it is now Exhibit

14 D97/1 and D97/1 ter for the B/C/S. Thank you.

15 JUDGE LINDHOLM: D97. Thank you.

16 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Cross-examination -- oh, I'm sorry, Mr. Lukic

18 Mr. Lukic.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

20 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:

21 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Lukic. Lukic questioning

22 Lukic. I hope there won't be any problems if the Trial Chamber addresses

23 either one of us and that there will be no mistake.

24 Mr. Lukic, my first question is: How long have you known Miroslav

25 Tadic? And I represent Mr. Tadic. How long have you known him? Did you

1 know him before the war?

2 A. I can't say exactly, but I've known him for quite a long time

3 now. Since I was the director of the Internal Revenue Agency and he had a

4 restaurant, if nothing else we knew each other for business reasons.

5 Q. Thank you very much. We've heard from your testimony so far about

6 your activities in the political structures and in the pre-war government

7 structures. And when I say "before the conflict," I mean before the

8 outbreak of the conflict in April 1992. Do you know if Miroslav Tadic was

9 a member of any political party during the war and before the war?

10 A. I didn't have any information about his political activities.

11 Q. Did you see Miroslav Tadic on any occasion at meetings of the

12 pre-war government structure?

13 A. At the meetings that I attended, I never saw him there.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to submit a new

16 document. For my friends from the Prosecution, it's a document with

17 internal mark PD110/3 -- PDB110/3. A copy has already been provided to my

18 learned friends, and I would ask the usher to provide a copy for the Trial

19 Chamber and for the registry.

20 Q. That is a decision by the executive council of the municipality of

21 Samac from the 22nd of May, 1993 about the naming or appointment of a

22 commission for the exchange of captured and other persons.

23 Mr. Lukic, the signature is not legible here, but I would like to

24 ask you if you are familiar with this document and if you remember signing

25 it.

1 A. The document is from the executive committee, and I do not doubt

2 that it is my signature.

3 Q. What can you tell us about this document? What was its purpose

4 and what was the relationship of this commission to the executive council?

5 A. I remember that the workers of the Red Cross turned up with a

6 proposal that there was a number of persons from our municipality who

7 wished to leave our municipality and that it was necessary to issue a

8 decision to form a commission or a committee which would officially

9 perform this task. And then I issued instructions for a draft proposal to

10 be prepared for the executive council, which the service did. And this

11 decision was adopted.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown

13 document P83 and for this document to remain in front of the witness.

14 Q. Mr. Lukic, please take a look at this document. It is dated in

15 October. It has a very similar content, but there are also certain

16 differences. Do you know that before you passed this decision the

17 committee was accountable for its work to the War Presidency? Do you know

18 something about that?

19 A. Yes. I knew that this committee was established by the War

20 Presidency and that this committee existed and performed its work.

21 Q. After the executive council passed this decision in May, did the

22 committee occasionally inform the executive council on its work, as is

23 mentioned in paragraph 3? And if so, how often did they do so?

24 A. I know that they did inform us. And as to how often, I really

25 couldn't tell you that.

1 Q. Do you remember that Miroslav Tadic came or perhaps Velja [as

2 interpreted] Maslic or perhaps another person?

3 A. I think that it was Velimir Maslic who informed the executive

4 council on behalf of the committee.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And if there are no objections, I

7 would like to have this document admitted.

8 MR. RE: There's no objection to the document Mr. Lukic has

9 provided to the Prosecution, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number, please.

11 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D76/3 and D76/3 ter for the

12 B/C/S version. Thank you.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. The following document I would like to discuss with you touches

15 upon the topic that had already been discussed by this witness, and it has

16 an internal -- the internal number of PDB47/3. It had been delivered to

17 the OTP. And this is a request to issue receipt for firewood, and it's

18 dated 29th August 1992.

19 Mr. Lukic, yesterday you told us about the decision of the

20 executive council establishing criteria for distribution of firewood. I

21 would like you now to comment on this document. What was the procedure

22 applied with respect to persons that applied to the municipality to

23 receive firewood? And could you also tell us whether you knew this

24 particular family that is mentioned in this document and what was the

25 ethnic background of this person that petitioned the executive council?

1 A. I commented on the decision of the executive council and the

2 decree of the government concerning the supply of firewood for the coming

3 winter. The petitioner here is of a Muslim ethnicity, whereas her husband

4 is a Croat. At least judging by the first and last name I can conclude

5 that the husband is a Croat. She, just like everybody else, sent a

6 petition, and it is stated here that a truckload of firewood and 2 tonnes

7 of coal were allotted to her. That means that her petition was granted.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If the OTP has no objections, I would

9 like to have this document admitted.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: I see none. Yes. Let's have the number, please.

11 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D77/3 and D77/3 ter. Thank

12 you.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to analyse another

14 document with an internal marking of PDB68/3. This is a request to

15 compensate for the expenses for purchasing medicine, and this document is

16 dated 11th of December, 1992.

17 Q. Mr. Lukic, can you please explain this document to us, if you have

18 any personal knowledge regarding this. Also, could you tell us something

19 about this issue and the attitude that the executive council had with

20 respect to matters mentioned in this request.

21 A. I remember that there were a lot of requests of this nature and

22 similar ones. This document deals with some rare medications that were

23 not easy to come by. We, or rather, the executive council granted

24 requests of this nature, and in the course of 1993 and 1994 we established

25 and made operational a humanitarian pharmacy where people similar to this

1 petitioner were able to receive medications free of charge.

2 Q. Could you tell me, please, this petitioner here, Barjaktarevic

3 Hikmeta, could you tell me what you know about the ethnicity of this

4 petitioner.

5 A. The petitioner is of a Muslim ethnicity.

6 Q. Could this document please be given a number.

7 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D78/3 and D78/3 ter. Thank

8 you.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. I would just like you to comment on the document that had already

11 been discussed and admitted here.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

13 document D63/3.

14 Q. The document has just one page, and I would like you to read it

15 carefully, Mr. Lukic. Could you comment on this document, please.

16 Yesterday you mentioned apartments, but I would like you to focus on the

17 attitude that the civilian protection staff within the executive council

18 had with respect to these matters.

19 A. I can tell you that one of the activities of the civilian

20 protection staff was to register all temporarily abandoned apartments and

21 houses and to seal them. Here they wrote up a memo and informed us about

22 the measures that had been taken on the 14th of June, 1992.

23 Q. Can you tell me, please: This person regarding whom the civilian

24 protection staff informed the executive council that temporary housing was

25 found for them, do you know these three families and do you know perhaps

1 where were their houses located in relation to the front line? If you

2 know, please.

3 A. Yes, I know these individuals. Their houses were right next to

4 the Sava banks, near the delta of the Bosna River, and their houses had

5 been destroyed by shells.

6 Q. The person listed under number 1, Tokalic Mujo, what do you know

7 about his ethnicity?

8 A. A Muslim.

9 Q. Do you know that on the list of vacant houses and apartments there

10 were a lot of Serb houses in view of what transpired in May?

11 A. Yes, I know. Two of me relatives were on that list, and there

12 were a lot of similar cases.

13 Q. Did the civilian protection staff upon providing this list have

14 anything to do with allocation of these apartments?

15 A. No, they didn't do anything else after that. Yesterday I told you

16 that a committee had been established which took decisions to the housing

17 facilities and made records on temporary award of these houses and

18 apartments to the homeless people.

19 Q. I don't have any further questions regarding this document, but I

20 would like to ask you something about a matter that I'm interested in. Do

21 you have any information about the executive organ -- executive council or

22 any other organ passing a decision making it mandatory for non-Serb

23 residents to wear a white armband?

24 A. The executive council certainly didn't pass such a decision, and I

25 don't know of any other organ passing that kind of a decision.

1 MR. LUKIC: I have finished my examination-in-chief.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Any --

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour, the Defence of Mr. Zaric does not

4 wish to examine this witness.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Cross-examination by the Prosecution.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Re:

7 Q. Mr. Lukic, you just said you knew of no order for people to wear

8 white armbands. Did you ever see people wearing white armbands in the

9 streets of Bosanski Samac in 1992?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Were you aware that people were wearing -- non-Serbs, that is,

12 Croats and Muslims, were wearing white armbands in the streets of Bosanski

13 Samac in 1992?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Were you -- before I go further, I just want to clear up a few

16 things. Were you the Captain Mirko Lukic who was a captain in the army

17 reserve in Bosanski Samac Municipality in 1992?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And during 1992, were you living -- or 1993, were you living in

20 Ulica Ivo Lola Ribar in the town of Bosanski Samac?

21 A. I have an apartment there; however, I lived in Gornja Slatina.

22 Q. But what number is your apartment in that street?

23 A. S17, number 6.

24 Q. How long have you owned the apartment there for?

25 A. Since 1976.

1 Q. You owned it in 1992, then. Were you staying in it during the

2 time you were the vice-president of the executive council of Bosanski

3 Samac?

4 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour, it is not actually an objection, but

5 I don't see if this question is quite proper, because our learned

6 colleague said "you owned it in 1992." First of all, maybe our colleague

7 was not here from the beginning of the trial, so there were differences

8 between ownership of the apartment, tenancy of the apartment. So maybe it

9 will be better to ask first if he actually was the owner of the apartment

10 or he had just a tenancy contract in respect of this apartment.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Well, I'm sure the way the question was put, the

12 witness was going to explain.

13 MR. RE: Well, I asked him whether he owned it and he said he

14 owned it since 1976. He didn't say he was a tenant or had social

15 ownership occupancy rights or anything.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Actually, he says I have an apartment there,

17 yes.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was a tenant because at the time

19 apartments were not privately owned. I had a tenancy right.

20 MR. RE:

21 Q. Whatever. You had an apartment in that street in 1992; that's

22 correct, isn't it?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You had the rights to use, occupy, and -- sorry, and use that

25 apartment during 1992 and 1993.

1 A. And occasionally I would use it, yes.

2 Q. That's during the period when you were the vice chairman or the

3 chairman of the executive council of Bosanski Samac.

4 A. At the end of 1992, the apartment was shelled and damaged;

5 therefore, during that time, until the apartment was repaired, I was

6 unable to live there, and this lasted for some two months. I would

7 occasionally stay in the apartment, both when I was vice-president of the

8 executive council and when I was president of it.

9 MR. RE: Can the witness please be shown Exhibit D27/3.

10 Q. I just want you, Mr. Lukic, please, to point out to the Trial

11 Chamber where the street is and where your apartment is on that street, or

12 was.

13 A. [Indicates]

14 Q. For the record -- just so the record is clear, you're pointing

15 to -- you're not pointing to it yet.

16 A. Here.

17 Q. Right. You're pointing to an area which is on the corner of

18 another street. Is it Ulica Edvard Kardelj?

19 A. No. Djuro Djakovic.

20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Djuro Djakovic. And so the

21 record is clear, the street you're pointing to is Ulica Ivo Lola Ribar,

22 which is the street parallel to Ulica Marsala Tita.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. You gave evidence yesterday that you were working

25 fairly long hours during the period of 1992 and 1993. When you were

1 working those long hours, how many times do you think -- or can you

2 estimate how many times you would have stayed in your apartment after

3 work, rather than going to the village?

4 A. Well, on the occasions when I stayed, I would spend the night in

5 the apartment.

6 Q. Over that period when you were working long hours, approximately

7 how many times do you estimate that you stayed there after work?

8 A. Perhaps 10 times a month.

9 Q. By 1992, you'd been working for the municipality for some 10 or 11

10 years, wasn't it?

11 A. Yes, since 1981.

12 Q. And you were a fairly senior official by that stage, weren't you?

13 A. I was director of Internal Revenue Agency.

14 Q. That's a senior position, isn't it?

15 A. Well, yes, a senior position within the administration.

16 Q. And just to clarify something from your evidence yesterday or the

17 day before, when you -- following the elections in 1990, the multi-party

18 elections, what were you doing between then and 19 -- April 1992? I just

19 want you to tell us what your job was between then and 1992.

20 A. I was an official without a portfolio. I was an official that had

21 not been assigned to any particular department. And I was pursuant to the

22 law on state administration.

23 Q. What were you actually doing as an official without a portfolio?

24 What did your job involve?

25 A. I continued to work in the Internal Revenue Agency; however, I was

1 not authorised to sign documents.

2 Q. Had you been authorised to sign documents before as the head of

3 the internal revenue section?

4 A. Yes, all tax documents.

5 Q. So was this in effect a demotion for you?

6 A. Yes. I was removed from office, yes.

7 Q. The political party that you had supported, I think you said, had

8 got three seats -- only three seats on the assembly.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You think it was a result -- or was it a result of your membership

11 of that political party or support for that political party that you lost

12 your position as the head of the Internal Revenue Agency?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So after 10 years you'd reached the -- a senior position in the

15 council. There was a change of government, and you were demoted for what

16 you consider political reasons. Is that a fair summary?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And your -- I'm sorry. In effect, your career was going nowhere,

19 while you maintained your membership with Ante Markovic's party; is that

20 correct?

21 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe that is calling for speculation, what

22 would happen in future with his career. It's pure speculation what would

23 happen.

24 MR. RE: The witness has already given evidence that as far as he

25 was concerned he was demoted because of his association with the

1 political party he was in.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And I think it's -- the question can be

3 answered by the witness. It's not so much speculation, considering the

4 context in which the incident occurred regarding employment.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Pursuant to the law on state

6 administration, officials without portfolio could keep that status for six

7 months. And I cannot now say what would have happened had I not been

8 re-elected Chief of the Internal Revenue Agency. Perhaps I would have

9 been appointed director in some municipal enterprise. I don't know.

10 However, I was not appointed to a position in the executive council.

11 MR. RE:

12 Q. So it was at that stage when you were an official without a

13 portfolio -- it was a fairly smart political move to switch to another

14 party, wasn't it?

15 A. No. I was appointed Chief of Internal Revenue Agency before I

16 became a member of another political party.

17 Q. Why did you lose your job, then?

18 A. Well, at that time there was something that the majority of the

19 parties that held power in the municipal assembly decided upon.

20 Q. The three main parties were, of course, the HDZ, the SDA, and the

21 SDS; correct?

22 A. [No audible response]

23 Q. Did the -- and you're nodding to that.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did the SDS support your retaining your position as head of the

1 Internal Revenue Agency?

2 A. In November of 1992 -- no, I'm sorry, of 1990, no.

3 MR. RE: Is this a suitable time, Your Honours? It's 3.45.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll take our break now and continue our

5 proceedings at 16.15.

6 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Pantelic, you have an explanation.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. I do apologise. My colleague --

10 just one clarification with regard to the issue which was raised by His

11 Honour Judge Lindholm. In fact, yes, our internal number, document RH27,

12 regarding the office time of the municipal organs was introduced in our

13 bundle of documents in order to be introduced as an exhibit. But after

14 verification, we found that under the RB4 is the same document with the

15 same numbers and everything, and this document, RB4, was tendered into

16 evidence and now it's D75/1. And I do apologise for this inconvenience,

17 and I wish to thank Judge Lindholm for this instruction. Thank you.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Cross-examination continues.

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: I do apologise to the Trial Chamber, and to my

20 learned colleague. We are not receiving the transcript on our laptops,

21 none of these three laptops. So if someone from the technical booth could

22 come. I mean, I don't want to interrupt the trial.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are aware of the problem. I've

24 already requested a technician to verify what went wrong during the

25 break. Thank you.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. We can continue, since the screens are

2 recording.

3 MR. RE:

4 Q. Before the break, when Mr. Pantelic was asking you questions, he

5 asked you about songs you might have heard in the town, and your answer

6 was you often heard songs coming from the TO headquarters building. And

7 then you said, "After work hours, I lived in a village which was 11

8 kilometres away." Now, in light of your response to me just before the

9 break, that you actually spent about 10 days a month after work living

10 in -- staying at your apartment in town, do you want to amend your

11 answer?

12 A. No. Occasionally I went home several times, but at least 10 days

13 were spent in the apartment.

14 Q. But you said -- you said 10 days a month. Now, the reason I ask

15 you -- I want to ask you that is in relation to the songs. You

16 understand?

17 A. I heard the singing during the working day. My apartment is about

18 600 or 700 metres away from the TO headquarters.

19 Q. To get to your apartment, you had to walk out into the street and

20 walk very close, maybe 20 metres or so, from the TO building from where

21 the songs were coming, didn't you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And the songs, of course, were coming, I suggest, every night in

24 the first -- in the first few months after April the 17th.

25 A. I heard the songs during work hours and not continuously, not

1 during the whole day, only occasionally.

2 Q. And the songs, as you say "songs," not "song" included -- one

3 called "From Topala to Ravna Gora," correct?

4 A. Yes. I heard that song too.

5 Q. And there's another one called, "General Draza's guards are

6 standing all around."

7 A. I don't understand.

8 Q. You don't know the song or you don't remember hearing it, "General

9 Draza's guards are standing all around"?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You know the song.

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: Maybe I can assist my colleague. This is one very

13 same song. It starts -- it is actually the same song. It starts with

14 from --

15 A. Those are the words of that song, "from Topala to Ravna Gora."

16 Q. Well, how about this one: "Oi, Balija, we're going to slit your

17 throats." Do you remember hearing that one?

18 A. No.

19 Q. "Balija" is an offensive term to Muslims, isn't it?

20 A. Yes. It's a derogatory name for Muslims.

21 Q. And what about "Hello General Mihajlovic"? Is that a song you

22 heard coming from the TO building?

23 A. I don't know which song this is.

24 Q. Well, in your own words, apart from "From Topala to Ravna Gora,"

25 which includes the words "General Draza's guards are standing --"

1 A. Are all General Draza's, yes.

2 Q. Well, what other Serb songs did you hear being sung from the TO

3 building?

4 A. That song was sung most frequently. There was also the song,

5 "Over Kraljevo." I can't remember, but they were old Serb songs from the

6 old times. I don't know which ones.

7 Q. When you say "old times," are we talking World War II and the

8 Chetniks?

9 A. They are Serb traditional songs. The Serbs sang those songs. I

10 don't know when they were written.

11 Q. They were -- they were nationalistic and patriotic Serb songs,

12 weren't they?

13 A. Patriotic songs.

14 Q. You knew at that point that non-Serb prisoners were being detained

15 in the TO and SUP buildings, didn't you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And it was obvious to you that it was the prisoners who were

18 singing these songs, wasn't it?

19 A. Yes. With the guards, certainly.

20 Q. But the prisoners weren't -- the prisoners were Muslim and Croat,

21 weren't they?

22 A. I heard that -- yes, that was so.

23 Q. You wouldn't expect them to be singing Serb patriotic and

24 nationalistic songs voluntarily, would you?

25 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honour. It's a pure speculation.

1 What the witness can say what the other persons would expect or not.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't see that question as asking for

3 speculation. It's a proper question, and the Prosecution will continue.

4 MR. RE:

5 Q. The question was: You wouldn't expect Croat and Muslim prisoners

6 to be voluntarily singing Serb patriotic and nationalistic songs, would

7 you?

8 A. Yes, you wouldn't expect that.

9 Q. At that stage, in May -- April/May 1992, you'd risen to the

10 position of being one of the top half dozen or so civilian officials in

11 Bosanski Samac, hadn't you?

12 A. No.

13 Q. By the end of May 1992, you were the vice-president of the

14 executive council, which was working closely with the Crisis Staff;

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you name half a dozen officials who were higher than you in

18 Bosanski Samac by the end of May of 1992?

19 A. At the time I was the director of the Internal Revenue Agency, and

20 the vice-president of the executive council. Above me was the president

21 of the executive council. As far as the executive council was concerned

22 then there was the secretary or the chief of the MUP, the chief for

23 National Defence, and naturally the Crisis Staff.

24 Q. How many were --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Council for the Prosecution, can you speak slowly,

1 please.

2 MR. RE: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I will speak more slowly.

3 Q. All right. So if it wasn't a half dozen, would you say that you

4 were one of the top dozen civilian officials in Bosanski Samac by the end

5 of May 1992?

6 A. No. I was among the higher officials but not among those six.

7 Q. I said "dozen." I went up from a half dozen to a dozen. Would

8 you agree you were in the top dozen?

9 A. I wasn't counting, but among the 15, yes.

10 Q. You had some fairly significant powers yourself, including the

11 authority to enter into contracts and legal relations for the

12 municipality, didn't you?

13 A. Regarding the finances, yes.

14 Q. You had the power to sign contracts and legal documents for the

15 municipal authority, didn't you?

16 A. For the executive council, yes.

17 Q. You also had a power of attorney, didn't you?

18 A. Yes. That's implied.

19 Q. One of the reasons you had these was because of your legal

20 qualifications; correct?

21 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

23 MR. PANTELIC: I do apologise. It is not an objection. In 30 --

24 page 36, line 17, the question was: "You also had a power of attorney,

25 didn't you?" Well, I received the translation that it was not actually

1 precise word of "power of attorney" in English. So could my colleague can

2 clarify, if the power of attorney was a document for certain action or

3 certain sign or contract or whatever or it's something else, because the

4 witness and all of us who are receiving B/C/S translation, it's something

5 different that we got in our earphones. So maybe in a few details maybe

6 my colleague can clarify that.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution can clarify that with the

8 witness.

9 MR. RE: Simply a power of attorney to act on behalf of the

10 municipal -- sorry, the executive council and the municipal assembly.

11 A. In the area of finances.

12 MR. PANTELIC: And again, Your Honour, in this question we have

13 two terms, "executive council" and "the municipal assembly." So I don't

14 think -- what exactly my colleague means, whether it means executive

15 council or municipal assembly. It's a two-folded question, I believe.

16 Yes, thank you.

17 MR. RE: It comes from a document Mr. Pantelic provided the

18 Prosecution with. It's sitting over there. He knows what it is. I'm not

19 going to put it to the witness at the moment.

20 A. The executive council.

21 Q. Thank you. Your -- the situation in March 1992 for you was that

22 you were an official without portfolio on the council -- sorry, the

23 municipal assembly while simultaneously you had been elected to the

24 executive council of the parallel municipal authority for the Serbian

25 authority; correct?

1 A. If you're thinking of the Assembly of the Serbian People.

2 Q. Yes. The situation is that you were simultaneously working at the

3 elected municipality as an official without portfolio, while at the same

4 time you had been elected an executive member -- sorry, a member of the

5 executive council of the Serbian Assembly of Bosanski Samac. That's

6 correct, isn't it?

7 A. The membership in the municipality of the Serbian -- the Serbian

8 municipality in the committee did not function.

9 Q. The fact is that you were elected and you were a member of the

10 executive council at the same time that you were working -- sorry, the

11 executive council of the Serbian parallel institution at the same time

12 that you were working as a paid employee of the Bosanski Samac Municipal

13 Assembly; correct?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. And on the 6th of March, 1992 you attended a meeting with Colonel

16 Nikolic from the JNA, Mr. Blagoje Simic, Mr. Dragan Lukac, Mr. Milos

17 Bogdanovic in the police station, didn't you, in Bosanski Samac?

18 A. I don't remember.

19 Q. It was about -- if I could jog your memory, it was about

20 roadblocks in Donja Crkvina. Does that assist your memory?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you attended that meeting, didn't you? The answer is yes?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. In what capacity did you attend the meeting of --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, what's the problem?

1 MR. PANTELIC: I do apologise. Could -- my learned friend can

2 give the reference of the page number of the transcript with regard to

3 this event, because I'm not so sure that --

4 MR. RE: [Previous translation continues] ...

5 MR. PANTELIC: It was the work of Colonel Nikolic or the other

6 persons.

7 MR. RE: T1577.

8 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Thank you.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can continue cross-examination.

10 MR. RE:

11 Q. As you were at the time an officer without portfolio, what was the

12 reason why -- for what reason did you attend this meeting?

13 A. I remember that the president of the executive council authorised

14 me on behalf of the executive council as an official without portfolio to

15 go to that meeting.

16 Q. You also attended a meeting with General Mladic in the autumn of

17 1992 in the municipal building with Mr. Blagoje Simic, didn't you -- I'm

18 sorry, Mr. Milan Simic.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And General Mladic came to the municipal building and stayed there

21 for several hours with his bodyguards standing outside the door, didn't

22 he?

23 A. Spent about 40 minutes maybe.

24 Q. And what was the purpose of the meeting with General Mladic in

25 autumn 1992 in the offices of the municipal building?

1 A. I remember that I worked in the office and somebody came in and

2 said, "General Mladic is in the municipal building." And I went outside

3 and I saw the general, and then he entered my office. There was no

4 invitation. He didn't give any reason, nor did he announce himself for

5 this meeting. He was probably just passing through.

6 Q. But you said you spent 40 minutes speaking to General Mladic.

7 What did General Mladic want to tell you? What did he say to you in this

8 meeting?

9 A. We talked about the work obligation, about the functioning of the

10 economy, how much the municipality was assisting the army. These were the

11 main questions that he had, and I reported to him on all of these

12 questions.

13 Q. How many other meetings did you have with General Mladic after

14 that?

15 A. Never again.

16 Q. I'm sorry?

17 A. Never again.

18 Q. The Crisis Staff in 1992 took the place of the municipal assembly,

19 didn't it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I'm sorry, the municipal assembly wasn't meeting, so the Crisis

22 Staff was performing all the functions of local government, wasn't it?

23 A. Yes. The municipal authorities or whatever the assembly is

24 doing -- the assembly authorities.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Just an intervention to the transcript. The

1 witness said not "the municipal authorities" but the "assembly

2 authorities" in terms of what the scope is for the assembly. Otherwise

3 municipal authorities is something larger and it does not reflect

4 correctly what the witness said. So maybe my learned friend can clarify

5 with that the witness, what was his explanation.

6 MR. RE: The answer --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

8 MR. RE: In my submission speaks for itself. The witness said,

9 "Yes, the municipal authorities or whatever the assembly is doing -- the

10 assembly authorities." Meaning, I thought, that they were doing

11 everything the municipal authorities or assembly was doing before.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The answer seems to imply that, yes.

13 MR. RE:

14 Q. The municipal -- I withdraw that.

15 The Crisis Staff had a very important role in life in Bosanski

16 Samac in 1992 and 1993, didn't it?

17 A. It substituted for the work of the assembly.

18 Q. It also liaised with the National Assembly and the national --

19 sorry, the Republika Srpska government, didn't it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And the Crisis Staff -- I withdraw that. One of the jobs of the

22 Crisis Staff, or one of its roles, was to implement government policy,

23 that is, Republika Srpska policy; correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And government policy was communicated to the Crisis Staff and the

1 executive board through a variety of means, such as national assembly

2 decisions, government decrees,

3 presidency decrees.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. It was very important for the Crisis Staff and the executive

6 council to know what decisions the presidency and National Assembly were

7 making in that period 1992/1993, wasn't it?

8 A. I know about the executive board too, and I know about the Crisis

9 Staff, but I wasn't in the Crisis Staff, so I can't give you a precise

10 answer.

11 Q. The executive council was very concerned to know what the

12 decisions -- sorry, what were the decisions -- sorry, to know of the

13 decisions of the presidency and the National Assembly; correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Because it was your role to implement those on the ground, if you

16 like, in Bosanski Samac.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And the National Assembly and the War Presidency -- the Presidency

19 of the Republika Srpska communicated its decisions and policies by

20 publishing them and sending them to local organisations such as the

21 executive council and the Crisis Staff of Bosanski Samac; correct?

22 A. They sent their regulations or laws through the Official Gazette,

23 decrees.

24 Q. You also received decrees before they had been published in the

25 Official Gazette, didn't you?

1 A. Some. If we were in the government and the decision was already

2 ready for publication, then somebody would be able to bring it back, so it

3 was available to them earlier.

4 Q. Liaison between the Crisis Staff and the National Assembly was

5 quite important in those times of war, wasn't it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And each local Crisis Staff or Serbian assembly had

8 representatives which it sent to the National Assembly; correct?

9 A. No.

10 Q. All right. I'll put it another way. Each Serbian local assembly

11 in the SAOs had representatives nominated to go to -- to attend National

12 Assembly meetings; correct?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Your own Serbian Assembly, Bosanski Samac, nominated Dr. Blagoje

15 Simic and Mirko Dragic or appointed them as representatives to the Serbian

16 People in the Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia-Herzegovina;

17 correct?

18 A. No.

19 Q. That's incorrect, is it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Are you saying that Dr. Blagoje Simic and Mirko Dragic were not

22 appointed representatives to the National Assembly from the Serbian

23 municipality in which you resided?

24 A. I explained this yesterday. The National Assembly would always

25 invite some of the representatives to monitor the work of the session in

1 their capacity as observers. I don't know what National Assembly session

2 you're talking about, but sometimes they attended a session of the

3 National Assembly to monitor its work. But here we are talking only about

4 one session and not a number of sessions.

5 MR. RE: Could the witness please be shown P124.

6 Q. I just want you to turn to item 4. I don't know what page it is

7 on in the B/C/S version. And a decision -- where it says, "Decision," the

8 second one. Have you found it?

9 A. Yes. I've found it.

10 Q. Do you agree now it's a decision of the 28th of March, 1992,

11 number 1-3/92, saying, "Dr. Simic and Mirko Dragic are appointed

12 representatives of the Serbian people from the territory of the Serbian

13 Municipality of Bosanski Samac and Pelagicevo under formation in the

14 Assembly of the Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina"?

15 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what it states.

17 MR. PANTELIC: We're not receiving video evidence on our

18 displays.

19 MR. RE: Because it wasn't on the video.

20 MR. PANTELIC: None of us, so -- something about it --

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Was it on the ELMO?

22 MR. PANTELIC: Now it's okay. Now it's okay. Thank you.

23 MR. RE:

24 Q. All I'm asking you: That is the official decision appointing them

25 as representatives to the National Assembly; correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 A. But let me just tell you, the National Assembly had requested for

4 the municipalities to send them the names of the people who would

5 sometimes, from time to time, attend the National Assembly meetings as

6 observers. And our municipality provided them with those names. When the

7 National Assembly of Republika Srpska thinks it necessary to call to

8 attend one of its sessions some of our -- some of the representatives from

9 our municipalities, then they would come. But they were not permanent

10 deputies to the assembly.

11 MR. RE: Thank you.

12 Q. They may not have been permanent deputies, but they were entitled

13 to attend as representatives; correct?

14 A. Upon invitation.

15 Q. Dr. Simic was --

16 A. When they received adequate accreditation.

17 Q. Dr. Simic was wounded in 1992, July 1992. Do you remember when

18 Dr. Simic was shot?

19 A. I heard about that, but I don't know the details.

20 Q. He was shot or wounded on the 24th of July, 1992. Has that helped

21 jog your memory?

22 A. From the president of the executive council I heard that he had

23 been wounded, but I don't know the reasons. He never told me the details

24 of his wounding.

25 Q. He was in hospital until the 30th of July, that is, some five --

1 five or six days. Do you accept that?

2 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

3 Q. If he was in hospital, he wouldn't have been able to attend a

4 National Assembly meeting held on the 25th of July, 1992, would he?

5 A. Well, if he was in hospital, surely he was unable to attend. But

6 it is also possible that he was never invited to attend this particular

7 session.

8 Q. On the 25th of July, the War Presidency at a decision signed by --

9 decision number 177/ -- sorry -10/92 authorised Stevan Todorovic to attend

10 the National Assembly meeting held on the 25th of July, 1992.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I believe that it would be fair for

12 this witness if we are speaking about any of the documents which are

13 tendered as exhibits to have a look on that and then to make a comment.

14 Otherwise, if, you know --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

16 MR. PANTELIC: Whatever, it's 177-10/92, who knows about that.

17 Thank you.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. In fairness to the witness, since he has

19 discussed so many document, perhaps the Prosecution would handle that part

20 of questioning like that. Show him the document and then ask the

21 question.

22 MR. RE: Of course, I was actually going to, Your Honour. In case

23 my friend is worried.

24 Could the witness please be shown P113.

25 MR. PANTELIC: In the meantime, if you'd be, my friend, so kind --

1 you said transcript 1577, but there are -- there is five digits in the

2 transcript. Could you please be so kind to repeat because we are not able

3 to find.

4 MR. RE: Page 1577, the 24th of September, 2001.

5 MR. PANTELIC: That's impossible because -- 2001. Sorry. Because

6 I thought that you were referring -- thank you.

7 MR. RE:

8 Q. Mr. Lukic. You've seen the document that's in front of you.

9 A. [No audible response]

10 Q. Do you agree that that's an authorisation of the War Presidency

11 for Stevan Todorovic to attend -- sorry, to represent an act for Bosanski

12 Samac at the National Assembly on the 25th of July, 1992 at a time when

13 Dr. Blagoje Simic, who was the nominated representative was in hospital?

14 Correct?

15 A. This means that Dr. Blagoje Simic was invited. But instead of

16 him, the War Presidency sent someone else.

17 Q. Thank you. The executive board or executive council was regulated

18 by a decision on -- decision dated -- decision 30th of May, 1992,

19 139-10/92. You may have discussed it. And it's set out in some detail

20 the rights, duties, and obligations of the municipal board. You know the

21 document, don't you? It's P112, and you discussed it in evidence

22 yesterday.

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. RE: Perhaps the witness could be shown P112.

25 Q. I'll take you to Article 1, the second paragraph, where it says,

1 "The executive board shall report to the assembly, that is, to the Crisis

2 Staff, on the situation in all aspects of social life, the implementation

3 of policies, decisions and other regulations of the assembly, that is the

4 Crisis Staff of the Serbian Municipality of Bosanski Samac."

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... of the executive board, that

7 is to report on all aspects of social life, as written there; correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And --

10 A. In the area of the competencies of the executive council. Social

11 life is a rather white category.

12 Q. I'm only reading back to you what it says in this document, which

13 was signed by Dr. Simic on the 30th of May --

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. Over the page it -- at Article 7, entitled, "Rights and

16 obligations," it says, "When discharging its responsibilities set out in

17 the constitution," that that of course is the constitution of Republika

18 Srpska, isn't it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. "And other regulations of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

21 Herzegovina, the executive boards have the right and duty to, one, monitor

22 the situation of all the aspects of human activities and take measures to

23 resolve issues related to those activities." That's what it says, doesn't

24 it?

25 A. Yes, in accordance with the law on state administration.

1 Q. The keywords are "all aspects of human activities and take

2 measures to resolve issues related to those activities." It's written

3 there in black and white, isn't it?

4 A. Yes, it is.

5 Q. Your board had responsibilities for things such as welfare, didn't

6 it, of the community?

7 A. Yes. Yes, as far as social policy is concerned.

8 Q. Housing?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Employment?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Education?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Transport?

15 A. Economy, yes.

16 Q. Agricultural policies?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Public safety?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Fire?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. It was basically your business to know what was happening in

23 Bosanski Samac, wasn't it?

24 A. Whatever falls within the competencies of the executive council,

25 yes.

1 Q. It was your business to know about the welfare of people in

2 Bosanski Samac, wasn't it?

3 A. Through the centre for social work.

4 Q. It was under your jurisdiction, wasn't it?

5 A. No. It was the financial affairs that were under my jurisdiction,

6 the budgetary matters.

7 Q. I'm talking about the jurisdiction of the executive board or

8 executive council.

9 A. Oh, yes. Yes. In that case, yes.

10 Q. They were quite wide ranging, weren't they?

11 A. In accordance with the decrees issued by the government.

12 Q. Welfare of the citizens of course includes Serbs, Croats, Muslims,

13 and others, doesn't it?

14 A. Yes, it does.

15 Q. And in 1992, the schools were closed, weren't they?

16 A. No. The schools actually started working in October.

17 Q. All right. Between April and October 1992, the two -- the two

18 school buildings were closed to school children, weren't they, in Bosanski

19 Samac?

20 A. The school year was finished on the 15th of April.

21 Q. Are you saying you have a six-month school vacation in Bosanski

22 Samac in 1992?

23 A. No, no. It was on the 15th of April that the previous school year

24 ended, and in October the government issued a decision in the beginning of

25 the new school year in those municipalities where it was such that it

1 could be organised, that the work of the schools could be organised.

2 Q. The two schools in Bosanski Samac, the elementary school and the

3 high school or technical school, as you call it, could not be used between

4 April and October 1992 because they were full of Muslim and Croat

5 prisoners; correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And prisoners there were being detained without trial or charge,

8 weren't they?

9 A. I don't know that. Because this was within the competencies of

10 the police. The police had requisitioned these two facilities at the

11 time.

12 Q. At the time you were the vice-president of the executive board.

13 You were a person with legal qualifications. You were on a board that was

14 entrusted with monitoring all aspects of social life, including welfare in

15 the municipality of Bosanski Samac. Are you seriously telling this Trial

16 Chamber you don't know whether people were detained there without trial or

17 charge?

18 A. Well, I do not have information to that effect, so I couldn't give

19 you a precise answer.

20 Q. The elementary -- the two schools were several hundred metres from

21 your office and from your -- the place you stayed in several nights a

22 week; correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you were aware that there were several hundred Muslim and

25 Croat prisoners being held there; correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Why did you think they were being held there?

3 A. I said that I had talked to the police commander, and in response

4 to my question, he told me -- I wanted to know who those people were and

5 why they were there. Anyway, he told me that they were being processed.

6 What he meant was that there were indications that they had carried

7 weapons or had been engaged in planning a rebellion, and it was to that

8 effect that the police were conducting proceedings, their proceedings

9 there. However, that was not within the competencies of the executive

10 council.

11 Q. As the vice-president of the executive council and a lawyer, did

12 you ask him whether they were being -- whether they had been charged or

13 were being lawfully detained?

14 A. Yes. He said that an investigation was being conducted.

15 Q. The document which I just referred to you and you have there

16 refers to the constitution of the Republika Srpska. And as you know,

17 unlawful deprivation of freedom is unlawful under the constitution which

18 was in force at the time.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What steps did you take to find out as a person entrusted with the

21 monitoring of all aspects of human activities in Bosanski Samac to find

22 out whether or not these people were being lawfully detained?

23 A. That fell within the competencies of the public security centre,

24 that is, the MUP.

25 Q. So you're basically saying you did nothing; is that correct?

1 A. This was not within the jurisdiction of the executive council.

2 The public law and order is part of the competencies and the authority of

3 the Ministry of Internal Affairs. It is only the MUP that can deal with

4 it when it comes to the civilian population.

5 Q. Would you as a lawyer and vice-president of the executive council

6 and a citizen have been concerned if hundreds of people were being

7 detained without charge or trial and tortured or beaten in school

8 buildings which were under the control of the Crisis Staff and your

9 council?

10 A. This is what I told the police chief, the police commander. I

11 told him that I was concerned and that I would like to see this

12 investigation to be completed as soon as possible. But as a member of the

13 executive council, in that capacity; not as a person who had any kind of

14 authority in that regard.

15 Q. Did you ever think to ask to inspect the facilities of the

16 elementary school or the technical school for yourself?

17 A. No, I never went there.

18 Q. Now, Milan Simic, who was the president of the executive board, of

19 course went there in his official capacity, didn't he?

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: I object to this question. First of all, this

21 witness cannot know if Milan Simic -- well, maybe he does know, but first

22 he needs -- our colleague has to ask him if he knows whether Milan Simic

23 was going there or not going there. Then in what capacity, official or as

24 a private person. This is a double-barreled question.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: The question is clear. The witness knew who Milan

1 Simic was, and he can answer.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the persons who returned to

3 Samac after 1996, having read the indictment, I heard and I realised that

4 Milan Simic had been in these detention facilities, but I didn't know that

5 and he didn't go there in his capacity of the president of the executive

6 council, because he did not have any authority to that effect. But I did

7 hear that he had visited these detention units with Stevan Todorovic.

8 MR. RE:

9 Q. When did you hear that he had visited these facilities with Stevan

10 Todorovic?

11 A. 1996 and 1997, from the persons who had returned to Samac.

12 Q. Do you know how Milan Simic as president of the executive board

13 had access to the primary school in his official capacity?

14 A. I heard that whenever he visited these detention facilities, he

15 was accompanied by Stevan Todorovic. And according to what I heard from

16 those who had returned, very often he was there -- actually, both of them

17 were there in an inebriated state.

18 MR. RE: Could Your Honours just excuse me for one moment.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

20 MR. RE: Thank you.

21 Q. The situation was that before April the 16th, 1992 there was a

22 democratically elected local government in Bosanski Samac, wasn't there?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And the democratically-elected government was elected -- the first

25 multi-party elections was in 1990 in Bosnia?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. It resulted in three parties -- three main parties and some minor

3 parties gaining seats in the municipal assembly.

4 A. Three main parties.

5 Q. As of the 17th of April, 1992 that municipal assembly was no

6 longer functioning, was it?

7 A. Not in that composition, no.

8 Q. It wasn't functioning at all, was it, in any composition?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. It wasn't functioning because it had been overthrown or taken over

11 by Serb forces; correct?

12 A. It could not be convened because those deputies were no longer

13 there. Part of them were no longer there. And then emergency state was

14 declared and the assembly no longer functioned.

15 Q. You would agree, would you not, that the definition of a military

16 coup d'etat is when the military takes over the government in a town,

17 city, state, or country and replaces the elected government with one of

18 its own, either civilian or military, wouldn't you?

19 A. Theoretically, yes.

20 Q. And on the night of the 16th/17th of April, 1992, Serb

21 paramilitaries in the JNA took over the town -- the municipality of

22 Bosanski Samac, didn't they?

23 A. I wasn't in Samac at the time.

24 Q. Which soldiers were patrolling the streets on the 17th of April --

25 17th and 18th of April, 1992 when you did reappear, Mr. Lukic? Were they

1 Croatian soldiers, ABiH soldiers, or Serbian soldiers?

2 A. On the 18th of April, upon my return, there were soldiers of the

3 Yugoslav People's Army patrolling there.

4 Q. That is, of course, after Bosnia had been recognised as an

5 independent state by the EU and the United States on the 6th and 7th of

6 April, wasn't it?

7 A. Yes, it was recognised then.

8 Q. And of course after a majority of the citizens of the country had

9 voted for independence from Yugoslavia; correct?

10 A. Yes. There was a referendum.

11 Q. I'll take you back, then. On the 16th of April, a multi-party --

12 I'm sorry, the municipal assembly was comprised of a number of

13 democratically elected representatives. On the 17th of assembly [sic] it

14 was no longer existing and the streets were being patrolled by JNA

15 soldier, you say. How do you say that the JNA soldiers had not taken over

16 the town and replaced the democratically-elected municipal government with

17 it own?

18 A. I'm not claiming that they were not patrolling. On the 18th of

19 April, I saw the soldiers of the JNA, and I didn't claim that they were

20 not in town and not patrolling.

21 Q. That's not what I'm asking you, Mr. Lukic. On the 16th of April,

22 there was a democratically-elected municipal assembly, which was

23 controlling the municipality; correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. On the 17th of April, it was no longer in existence; correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. It had been replaced by the Serb Assembly of Bosanski Samac;

3 correct?

4 A. On the 19th of April, the Crisis Staff was declared, which means

5 then there were Serbian authorities then.

6 Q. Okay. We'll put it that way. The 16th of April,

7 democratically-elected government. 19th of April, Serb Crisis Staff.

8 Correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In between, JNA soldiers, Serb paramilitaries, took over the town;

11 correct?

12 A. They controlled the town together with the police.

13 Q. They didn't control the town on the 16th of April, when the

14 democratically-elected assembly was in control, did they?

15 A. Yes -- no, they didn't control.

16 Q. So I put it to you again: What else could that be other than a

17 forcible takeover or a local military coup d'etat?

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour, this is calling for a legal

19 conclusion. Let's leave this to the Trial Chamber.

20 MR. RE: That can't be a serious objection.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Mr. Lazarevic. It's a question which the

22 witness can answer, considering his level of operation and his level of

23 education.

24 MR. RE:

25 Q. Do you remember the question? The question was: What else

1 could -- just let me finish it. The question was: What else could have

2 happened other than a forcible takeover or a local military coup d'etat?

3 A. I don't know the reasons for what happened that day. That's why I

4 can't tell you whether it was a forcible takeover or a non-forcible

5 takeover. There had been information -- this is a military matter, and

6 I'm not a military serviceman, so I can't give you an exact answer. But

7 it is true that on the 18th, there were JNA troops in the streets. I saw

8 them.

9 Q. There could be no reason for JNA troops to be in the streets at

10 that point after the declaration of independence, could there? I withdraw

11 that.

12 There could be no -- I'll rephrase it. There could be no

13 legitimate reasons for JNA troops to be in the streets controlling the

14 town and vital facilities after Bosnia's recognition as an independent

15 state by the EU and the US, for example, could there?

16 A. Certainly not.

17 Q. The declaration of the state of emergency was a very, very serious

18 step for the Crisis Staff to take, wasn't it, Mr. Lukic?

19 A. I don't know what declaration you have in mind.

20 Q. I'm talking about the declaration of the state of emergency in

21 Bosanski Samac.

22 A. Oh, yes.

23 Q. It was a very, very serious step for the Crisis Staff to take in

24 relation to control of the municipality, wasn't it?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. The declaration -- the announcement -- just a moment.

2 MR. RE: Just excuse me for one moment.

3 Q. A state of emergency could only be declared in very, very extreme

4 circumstances, couldn't it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And only as a result of a threat to the people of the

7 municipality; correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... made upon very sound advice?

10 A. Based on a very firm assessment.

11 Q. And if the assessment was wrong, the state of emergency should be

12 revoked, shouldn't it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And if the stated reasons for declaring the state of emergency

15 turned out to be wrong, there would be no reason for the state of

16 emergency to continue, would there?

17 A. Then the state of emergency should be terminated.

18 Q. And it should be terminated immediately, shouldn't it?

19 A. As soon as there are no more reasons for it to exist any more, it

20 is immediately terminated.

21 Q. And if the reasons were wrong to start with for proclaiming it, it

22 should never have been proclaimed in the first place -- one should never

23 have been proclaimed in the first place. Would you agree with that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The stated reasons for proclaiming the state of emergency in

1 Bosanski Samac on the 19th of April, 1992 were, considering the difficult

2 situation on the territory of the municipality --

3 MR. PANTELIC: Same suggestion, Your Honour. If we are speaking

4 about a particular document, it would be fair for the witness to have the

5 document in front of himself, not to have quotation, please.

6 MR. RE: P89. Could the witness please be shown P89.

7 Q. I'll read it to you to save time while it's coming. The preamble

8 says, "Considering the difficult situation on the territory of the

9 municipality particularly in the town of Bosanski Samac where a

10 paramilitary formation entered the municipality in order to carry --"

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please slow down when

12 reading.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please, slow down. The interpreters have to

14 follow you.

15 MR. RE:

16 Q. "Where a paramilitary formation entered the municipality in order

17 to carry out an organised campaign of terror against the innocent

18 population in the town and surrounding area, the Crisis Staff of Bosanski

19 Samac municipality has made a decision on the introduction of a state of

20 emergency on the territory of the municipality."

21 Have you seen what I'm reading from?

22 MR. PANTELIC: Could -- I do apologise. Could we have a B/C/S

23 version on the ELMO because of our clients and also for the other members

24 of the Defence team, please. Thank you.

25 MR. RE:

1 Q. Have you read that, Mr. Lukic, the preamble?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, of course, the information was wrong. The state of emergency

4 should never have been proclaimed, should it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And the truth is that the only paramilitary formation which

7 entered the municipality to carry out an organised campaign of terror was

8 Serb paramilitary forces; correct?

9 A. That's not what it says here.

10 Q. I know that's not what says, but that's not what I'm saying to

11 you. I'm saying that the only -- the truth is that the only paramilitary

12 formation that ended the municipality in order to carry out an organised

13 campaign of terror against the innocent population were in fact Serb

14 paramilitary forces; correct?

15 A. When the Crisis Staff passed this decision, it was probably guided

16 by some information it had at its disposal. I don't know. I wasn't

17 present there, so I can't comment on this.

18 Q. The first thing you did when you came back to work on the 18th of

19 April was to go to the 2nd Posavina Command, wasn't it?

20 A. 2nd Detachment, yes.

21 Q. The 2nd Detachment. You went straight to the army when you came

22 back to work, didn't you?

23 A. I went to work, or I started to my office, and then I stopped by

24 the 2nd Detachment to see what the situation was in town and to know where

25 the president of the executive council and the entire executive council

1 were, because my war assignment was in the executive council. So it was

2 just by accident that I stopped by the 2nd Detachment, because it was on

3 the way from my house to the municipal building.

4 Q. When you say "executive council," are you referring to the

5 Bosanski Samac Serb Municipality or the democratically-elected one?

6 A. My war assignment -- wartime assignment was in the executive

7 council, and I meant the democratic one, the one that had been elected

8 previously.

9 Q. When were you elected to the executive council of the democratic

10 one -- the democratically-elected one?

11 A. On the 6th of April, 1991, if I remember correctly.

12 Q. With your legal qualifications, did you draft the decision on the

13 introduction of a special wartime tax? I'm asking, were you one of the

14 drafters of the decision on the special wartime tax?

15 A. I was one of the participants, one of the authors of the draft.

16 MR. RE: Can the witness please be shown P102.

17 Q. Just while I'm on that issue of drafting, you, of course, had

18 legal qualifications and had been working for the council for -- the

19 assembly for some 10 years at that stage. Did you draft many documents of

20 a legal type while working for the assembly?

21 A. From the domain of the Internal Revenue Agency, yes, because I was

22 Chief of Internal Revenue Agency, and I was authorised to propose drafts

23 to the executive council and the municipal assembly only on that subject

24 matter.

25 Q. Okay. What about for the Serbian Municipality of Bosanski Samac?

1 Did you have a role in drafting legal-type documents for the assembly --

2 I'm sorry, for the municipality?

3 A. In 1992?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. In 1992 there was the Crisis Staff and the War Presidency.

6 Q. Well, what about for the War Presidency and the Crisis Staff? Did

7 you assist by drafting legal-type documents, such as decisions, for the

8 War Presidency and the Crisis Staff?

9 A. In the area of finance, and the other topics were covered by other

10 secretariats, Secretariat for Economy, for Health, Education, and Housing.

11 Q. I think you said yesterday that it was the executive council which

12 proposed the special wartime tax; is that correct?

13 A. To the Crisis Staff, yes.

14 Q. Because you were working -- that's you, the executive council, was

15 working fairly closely with the Crisis Staff at that time, weren't you?

16 A. In the domain of this subject matter, yes.

17 Q. The special wartime tax basically is drafted in relation to work

18 obligation -- sorry, applies to work obligation and applies to the payment

19 of tax, doesn't it? It's actually in two -- it's actually directed in two

20 different things.

21 A. No. Special wartime tax was paid by those who worked abroad,

22 meaning outside of the former Yugoslavia, and who did not respond to the

23 general mobilisation call-up. The government of Republika Srpska gave a

24 recommendation that a special wartime tax could be imposed on the salary

25 of these individuals because prior to that salaries were taxed and the

1 revenue thus collected went into the budget of the municipalities. A few

2 months after that this revenue was redirected into the budget of the

3 republic and the republic government, so the tax remained but it's end

4 user was changed.

5 Q. In line with the evidence you've given earlier, this, of course,

6 applied to all peoples of all ethnicities, didn't it? Serb, Croat,

7 Muslim, or whatever.

8 A. Those who came to Samac, because that was the only way we could

9 collect these taxes, levy and collect. So all of those who came to Samac,

10 those who lived and worked abroad, would pay this tax when they came back

11 to Samac. The collection of this tax was conducted by the financial

12 police at the border crossings at entry points into Republika Srpska.

13 Q. I'm sorry, you're answering a completely different question to the

14 one I asked. I asked you whether it was applied to people of all

15 ethnicities. The answer is either yes or no.

16 A. Yes. But there were 99 per cent Serb there and 1 per cent of

17 others.

18 Q. Article 2 says, "The taxpayer of the special wartime tax is an

19 individual whose residence is on the territory of the Serbian Municipality

20 of Bosanski Samac, et cetera, and who is currently on temporary employment

21 abroad and in possession of valid work and residence permits, which were

22 issued to him by the competent bodies of the country where he is

23 staying." Do you follow?

24 A. [No interpretation]

25 Q. It applies on its face to people who have left the municipality

1 but who were in residence there; correct?

2 A. It applied only to those who came to Samac municipality and who

3 were present in Samac municipality throughout the entire time. Those

4 individuals who left the municipality did not pay wartime tax. Not a

5 single such individual was expected to pay such tax, and we have records

6 to prove this.

7 Q. Am I misreading, Mr. Lukic, am I misreading Article 2 where it

8 says, "an individual whose residence is in Bosanski Samac currently on

9 temporary employment abroad"? Am I misreading what it says there? Are

10 those the words I'm reading from the paper?

11 A. But only -- or rather, if they left their residence, they were not

12 subject to income tax. If they left the territory, they were not required

13 to pay income tax.

14 Q. I'm sorry, we're obviously at cross-purposes here. I'm just

15 quoting to you what the document says. Do you understand?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Article 2 says --

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel.

19 MR. RE: Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Is it not clear that -- I think it's a question of

21 language here. The witness is trying to say that those persons who had

22 left the country, who didn't return each time they worked abroad and

23 returned to Bosanski Samac. I'm sure it doesn't mean that people were

24 commuting from the Balkans to other countries on a daily basis.

25 MR. RE: Your Honour, I'm not -- I'm just taking the literal

1 meaning of it, which says, "An individual whose residence is in Bosanski

2 Samac and who is currently temporarily working abroad." That's all it

3 says.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

5 MR. RE: I'm just asking him to agree that that's in fact what it

6 says.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: So the witness is explaining that those who had

8 left --

9 MR. RE: Yes.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: -- weren't subject to tax.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were not. That's exactly what

12 I'm saying.

13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Lukic, is it perhaps -- Mr. Re has read out

14 what the text says, so presumably for those persons who left the

15 municipality of Bosanski Samac and, for example, stayed resident in

16 Germany and never came back, even though the letter of the law would seem

17 to apply to them, it would have been a question of not being able to

18 enforce it. So it's a question of the enforceability of the legislation

19 for those who never returned back to Bosanski Samac. Would that be

20 correct do you think?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, precisely so.

22 MR. PANTELIC: If I may add, Your Honour, this is a matter of

23 interpretation, so one is a literal approach and the other is the witness

24 to try to explain how that was in reality. I mean, that's the basis of

25 this discussion. So I think that my dear colleague shouldn't push this

1 line strictly on the literary interpretation and leave the witness to

2 broadly explain this issue. Thank you.

3 MR. RE: Well, thank you. But the witness just told us that he

4 drafted the document.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. But I think we have discussed it sufficiently,

6 and he has answered what in practice how the law -- how that particular

7 law worked.

8 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Of course, Mr. Lukic, should the person not pay the tax or fail to

10 return, Article 3 says, in capital letters, "He will never be allowed to

11 return to his country again and his entire movable property and real

12 estate assets will be confiscated." That's what it says, doesn't it?

13 A. Yes. But that was never enforced. This was more of a

14 psychological nature.

15 Q. You drafted a document, a law -- a document with the status of law

16 in Bosanski Samac saying that individuals who failed to return could have

17 their entire movable property and real estate assets confiscated, didn't

18 you?

19 A. That's what it says here. However, that was never enforced, no.

20 Q. The answer is yes, that you drafted it; correct?

21 A. The executive council did, yes.

22 Q. Of which you were the vice-president and presented it to the

23 Crisis Staff; correct?

24 A. President of the Crisis Staff presented it -- the president of the

25 executive council presented it to the Crisis Staff.

1 Q. Of course, the people who had left Bosanski Samac at that point

2 were Muslims and Croats, weren't they?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So this decision or this Article 3 could only have been pointed

5 to -- directed towards Muslims and Croats who had left the territory;

6 correct?

7 A. No.

8 Q. A moment ago you said that there were 99 per cent Serbs in town at

9 that point; correct?

10 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honour. The witness never said

11 that. The witness said that the persons who paid this tax was 99 per cent

12 Serbs, and he explained that the payment was on the border. So he didn't

13 say that the population of Samac was 99 per cent of Serbs and the 1 the

14 rest. So I kindly ask my dear colleague to keep --

15 MR. RE: I will just check the transcript reference before I

16 withdraw, if I may do that.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please do check the transcript. I think the

18 explanation by Mr. Pantelic appears to be what was in fact said by the

19 witness.

20 MR. RE: I take Your Honours to -- and Mr. Pantelic, of course, to

21 page 64, at line 11.

22 Q. I'm sorry, you're answering a completely different

23 question to the one I asked. I asked you whether it was

24 applied to people of all ethnicities. The answer is

25 either yes or no.

1 A. Yes. But there were 99 per cent Serb there and 1 per

2 cent of others.

3 MR. RE: The answer, in my submission, is fairly clear and is on

4 the record.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But this applied to people who were

6 temporarily working abroad.

7 MR. RE: I can't take it further. The answer -- there was an

8 answer given, there were 99 per cent Serbs there, and I interpreted it in

9 good faith that that was what he meant. If he means something and wants

10 to tell us there was a smaller number of Serbs --

11 MR. PANTELIC: Another problem, Your Honour, we are suffering

12 inconsistence with our notebook computers, laptop computers. We have only

13 33 pages. It's contrary to the official transcript on the display, which

14 has 69. So we could -- we could not even find the page. So maybe in --

15 during the break the technical booth can help us. Because if I -- if I

16 try to find page 64, it's impossible, because on my laptop I have only 33

17 pages.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: It's not working.

19 MR. PANTELIC: The same story.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll take our break and come back at 18.05.

22 --- Recess taken at 5.48 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 6.09 p.m.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. If I may, I wish to thank to our

1 colleagues from the technical unit. Now all our computers are in order,

2 and every one of us can follow the transcript.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

4 MR. PANTELIC: That's one thing.

5 Another thing, I would like to reiterate that -- reading the page

6 64, where this issue was raised, it is not fair for the witness and it is

7 not fair for the proceedings if our learned friend is taking out of

8 context certain portions of the answer.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Mr. Pantelic, in fact, the Trial Chamber has

10 decided that the witness will be given an opportunity to explain.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. Thank you.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Because we want evidence to be correctly recorded.

13 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: And to be understood by all parties, including the

15 Trial Chamber.

16 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: So can the witness explain this tax and how it was

18 implemented, to whom it applied.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And as Judge Williams is telling me, the 99

21 per cent of the Serbs, because that's what is causing confusion. Was it

22 of the people who were going abroad -- which may mean that the Croats and

23 Muslims may not necessarily have left the territory but may not have been

24 working abroad, or it could mean that they were not -- the Muslims and

25 Croats had perhaps already left permanently, in which case their

1 properties were subject to confiscation. So can you please explain this

2 whole scenery about this tax, who paid it, what was happening on the

3 ground.

4 MR. RE: Your Honour, before he does, there was some confusion

5 earlier when I was asking some questions about -- about the document, and

6 I was talking about it being in two places.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

8 MR. RE: And I talked about work obligations. The document is in

9 two parts. Article 3 at the bottom refers to someone returning to carry

10 out work obligations. The other part of the document refers to the

11 payment of a wartime tax. That's what I was getting at.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

13 MR. RE: It was my -- I omitted to use the word -- to take the

14 witness right to the words "work obligation," so there may be some

15 confusion there.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

17 MR. RE: Because as I was saying, it's clearly directed to two

18 things, one work obligation and, two, the tax. So maybe there should

19 be some clarification on that.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Let the witness clarify.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I must say that the wartime tax was

22 paid by persons who were temporarily employed abroad. And "abroad" means

23 countries outside of the former Yugoslavia. Who are these persons? They

24 are persons who, while this decision was in effect, happened to come to

25 town. How did they come? At the entry to Republika Srpska, the financial

1 police, which was under the jurisdiction of the finance ministry,

2 controlled or checked whether they had a receipt about paid income taxes,

3 taxes on their salaries. After they come to the municipality, come to the

4 town, they report in and then pay this tax. No one had their property

5 confiscated ever, not any kind of property. And when I said that this

6 applied to Serbs 99 per cent, what I meant was that during the war most of

7 the people who came to the town or to the municipality were Serbs, and

8 they were the ones who paid this duty.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

10 MR. RE:

11 Q. Mr. Lukic, what I was asking you before was Article 3 applies to a

12 person failing to return in order to carry out his work obligation. I'm

13 just reading what the document says, Article 3. The last words of Article

14 3 "or other competent body in order to carry out his work obligations."

15 You see, it's about a person failing to return from abroad to perform a

16 work obligation within 30 days. Do you follow?

17 A. The government of Republika Srpska declared a general

18 mobilisation, and it stated that those persons who were temporarily

19 employed abroad or who are working in one of the western countries did not

20 have to report to the general mobilisation call because then they would

21 lose the status of workers in those countries or those companies, and that

22 is why that is stated here.

23 Q. All I'm asking you is: Reading this article, it is directed on

24 its face, literally, at a person working abroad who fails to return within

25 30 days to carry out work obligations; yes or no?

1 A. Yes, you're right. That's what it states. But it applies to the

2 persons that I mentioned earlier. This means that a man who is

3 temporarily working abroad and does not wish to pay the wartime tax, then

4 he had to come to the municipality and report and receive his military

5 call-up.

6 Q. I'm not asking for your interpretation --

7 A. He was able to choose.

8 Q. Please stop. I just asked you if that's what it said. If I wanted

9 an interpretation, I'll ask you for it. And if I don't, I'm sure Mr.

10 Pantelic will raise it.

11 A. It does.

12 Q. Directed at people who don't return. The sanction is, and it's in

13 capital letters is, "Confiscation of all property"; correct? That's what

14 it says?

15 A. Yes, it states that.

16 Q. And of course, in June 1992 most of the people who had left the

17 territory of the Bosanski Samac were Croats and Muslims; correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... residents of Bosanski Samac

20 before they left, weren't they?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And many Muslims and Croats left Bosanski Samac, leaving behind

23 their property, didn't they?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The work obligation published by the government and locally

1 applied to all people regardless of ethnicity, didn't it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And when Croat and Muslim people left the territory of Bosanski

4 Samac, other people, mainly Serb, moved into their property, didn't they?

5 A. In accordance with the regulation on abandoned property.

6 Q. Of course, there is nothing in this document which says it only

7 applies to Serbs who have left Bosanski Samac, is there; yes or no? Just

8 in the document. Yes or no? Do you mean no?

9 A. No. But let me explain.

10 Q. No explanation. I'm just asking you if there's anything in the

11 document the answer is no. That's correct, isn't it?

12 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, it's not fair. I mean, it's --

13 finally, this is a legal document. I mean, we have to see what is the

14 interpretation of it. What does it mean, yes or no? We cannot work with

15 this -- maybe we can work with the facts. But if we're speaking about

16 interpretation, it's not enough, yes or no, so I think the witness is

17 entitled to explain that.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: No. The Prosecutor have an explanation -- or if the

19 Trial Chamber thinks it's necessary, the Trial Chamber will direct an

20 explanation. But the sequence of questioning and answering is all right.

21 If you want it explained, you can do that in re-examination.

22 MR. RE:

23 Q. Of course, at the time this was published, the Serbs, Croats, and

24 Muslims were at war with each other in varying combinations, weren't

25 they? The 15 of June, 1992 -- sorry, 13th of June, 1992.

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And the Republika Srpska of course was not recognised

3 internationally or by the Muslims and Croats in the Federation; correct?

4 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honour. We have to know which

5 period we are speaking about and --

6 MR. RE: I just said the 13th of June, 1992.

7 MR. PANTELIC: And by whom it was recognised.

8 MR. RE: I just said the 13th of June, 1992. How much clearer can

9 I be?

10 MR. PANTELIC: And another part is by whom it was recognised --

11 Bosnia was recognised. Because you firstly said it was European Union

12 country and United States, and now what you're referring for? How many

13 countries are recognised? So let's be specific.

14 MR. RE: I think there was one at the time. It was Serbia.

15 Although you could -- Republic of Yugoslavia. I think Mr. Pantelic knows

16 that.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you just ask the question again so that the

18 witness can be clear and give us an answer.

19 MR. RE:

20 Q. The Republika Srpska was recognised internationally by no other

21 entity than Yugoslavia at that point; correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. There would be no reason for Muslims and Croats to return if they

24 were abroad to answer a work obligation gazetted by the Republika Srpska

25 during a time of war with their own people, would there?

1 A. Yes, it didn't apply to them.

2 Q. It would be absurd to think that Muslims and Croats would return

3 to answer a work obligation to fight against or to work against their own

4 people, wouldn't it?

5 A. There were many Muslims in town who lived there throughout the

6 whole war. I don't know.

7 Q. I'm talking about people returning from abroad, especially those

8 who left perhaps as refugees. You would agree it would be absurd for

9 them -- for the Republika Srpska to expect them to return to answer a work

10 obligation, wouldn't you?

11 A. It wasn't asked, no.

12 Q. And on its face, this document is directed at Muslims and Croats

13 who have left Bosanski Samac and are unable to return, isn't it?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Moving to the wartime -- the tax. Someone who fails to pay the

16 tax in Article 11, again in capital letters, within the period stated,

17 "Shall never be allowed to return to the territory of the municipality

18 and all his movable property and real estate assets shall be

19 confiscated." Do you see that? Article 11.

20 A. I see it.

21 Q. It's your words and you drafted them; correct?

22 A. No. This was an added part of the text which was added when the

23 final text was being adopted.

24 Q. Also for psychological reasons?

25 A. Probably. Because it was never implemented.

1 Q. On its face it is legalised exiling of people who have left the

2 territory and haven't paid a wartime tax, isn't it, on its face?

3 A. This decision applies to people who worked abroad before the

4 breakout -- the outbreak of hostilities, and this is what I've been trying

5 to say the entire time.

6 Q. What do the words -- what could the words "he shall never be

7 allowed to return to the territory of the municipality" be other than

8 legalised exiling of someone who has failed to pay a wartime tax? On its

9 face, what could it be other than legalised exiling?

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please speak slowly.

11 A. Article 3 states that within 30 days, they can return.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, please speak slowly.

13 MR. RE: If Your Honours pleases.

14 Q. I'm talking about Article 11, Mr. Lukic. The words I read to you,

15 please concentrate on those.

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. Is the answer yes, then? "Should a taxpayer fail to make regular

18 tax payments following the expiration of the deadline stated in Article

19 9 - that's two months - of this decision, he shall never be allowed to

20 return to the territory of the municipality and all his movable property

21 and real estate assets shall be confiscated." I'll stop there. My

22 question is the following: On the face of what is written there, this

23 could only be -- the words "he shall never be allowed to return to the

24 territory of the municipality" can only be seen as legalised exiling, what

25 is written there.

1 A. That's what it states. But if you read the whole decision, that

2 is not the conclusion that you could draw from that.

3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... decision, Mr. Lukic, and I'm

4 asking you about Article 11. And we move on, "And all his movable

5 property --"

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. "And real estate assets shall be confiscated." On its face as

8 written it can only be legalised confiscation without compensation of a

9 person's entire property for failing to pay a wartime tax"; correct?

10 A. That's what it say, yes.

11 Q. Did you have a hand in the drafting of the statute of the

12 municipality of the -- sorry, the Assembly of the Serbian People of

13 Bosanski Samac and Pelagicevo?

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear what the witness

15 said; yes or no.

16 MR. RE: He said no.

17 Q. When you -- I withdraw that. You gave evidence earlier to

18 Mr. Pantelic in relation to the massacre at Crkvina. I think your

19 evidence was that you heard about it the next day. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You would have heard that Crni was one of the perpetrators,

22 wouldn't you?

23 A. No, Lugar, according to the information that I have, according to

24 what I heard.

25 MR. RE: Excuse me for one moment, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

2 MR. RE:

3 Q. The work of the Crisis Staffs was regulated by the government of

4 the Republika Srpska, wasn't it?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. RE: Could the witness please be shown P128. And I'll

7 continue.

8 Q. You were aware when you became the vice-president of the executive

9 council that hundreds of people were being detained in facilities in

10 Bosanski Samac, weren't you?

11 A. Yes, I knew that. I had heard about that.

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 THE REGISTRAR: May I ask counsel to provide the witness the

14 B/C/S version as I seem not to have it on me at the moment. Thank you.

15 MR. RE: Can do.

16 Q. I think Mr. Pantelic showed you that document yesterday or the day

17 before, didn't he?

18 MR. PANTELIC: I didn't.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about this document.

20 MR. RE:

21 Q. It's an order of the prime minister dated the 26th of April, 1992,

22 Prime Minister Branko Djeric, setting out the instructions for the work of

23 the Municipal Crisis Staffs. I just want you to look at Article 3, where

24 it says, "The Crisis Staff coordinates the function of authorities in

25 order to ensure the defence of the territories, the safety of the

1 population and property, the establishment of government and the

2 organisation of all other areas of life and work. In so doing, the Crisis

3 Staff provides the conditions for the municipal executive committee to

4 exercise legal executive authority from the economy and other areas of

5 life." Now, that sets out at the highest level of the Republika Srpska

6 what the Crisis Staffs were supposed to be doing; correct?

7 A. Yes, that's what it says.

8 Q. And it establishes also the relationship between executive

9 committees such as yours and the Crisis Staff, doesn't it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could you turn to paragraph 10, please, which says, "The

12 non-fighting population and the wounded must be treated in the most humane

13 fashion and in accordance with the ICRC. Prisoners of war also must be

14 treated humanely and in accordance with the laws of the Serbian Republic

15 of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

16 The question I want to ask you is: What did the Crisis Staff,

17 executive committee, the board of which you were a member, do to ensure

18 that the non-fighting population and the wounded were treated in the most

19 humane fashion and in accordance with the ICRC in Bosanski Samac?

20 A. The executive council based its activity on the work of the

21 economy, on the way the economy functioned. And I explained this two days

22 ago. But I cannot give you any comment as to the Crisis Staff.

23 Q. Paragraph 13: "War profiteers, gangs of looters, and similar

24 shall be arrested and delivered to the investigating judicial organs of

25 the Serbian Republic." My question is: What did the Crisis Staff or the

1 executive committee, of which you were a member, do to ensure that war

2 profiteers, gangs of looters, and similar were arrested and delivered to

3 investigating judicial organs?

4 A. The supplies to the Crisis Staff.

5 Q. The question I asked you is: What did the Crisis Staff or your

6 committee do to ensure the arrest of looters, war profiteers, and

7 similar?

8 A. The executive council adopted several decisions, that is, made

9 proposals for several decisions to be adopted from this area of work. And

10 I discussed them yesterday and the day before. These decisions were in

11 accordance of the government decrees, and I cannot give you any comment on

12 the Crisis Staff.

13 Q. So the answer is nothing that you know of; is that correct?

14 A. The executive council did undertake steps.

15 Q. All right. Well, if the executive council did, what were the

16 steps that the executive council undertook to ensure the arrest and

17 delivery to investigating judicial organs of war profiteers, gangs of

18 looters, and similar?

19 A. This was not in the jurisdiction of the executive council. The

20 executive council could not take any of those measures. They couldn't

21 arrest people or prevent any such behaviour. This was in the jurisdiction

22 of someone else. The executive council was simply an executive body, but

23 only insofar as the economy and social work is concerned. It was not

24 involved in all problems pertaining to the area of the municipality.

25 Q. A moment ago you said the executive council did undertake steps.

1 What did you mean when you said "did undertake steps"?

2 A. We issued an order whereby companies who were buying cattle were

3 ordered not to buy the cattle in respect of which there were no adequate

4 papers and ownership records.

5 Q. Your evidence has been to the effect that you don't encourage or

6 condone discrimination -- ethnic discrimination; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you don't favour ethnic discrimination.

9 A. No.

10 Q. One ethnic group taking over the municipality -- taking over the

11 organs of government could be -- I'm sorry. I withdraw that. One ethnic

12 group taking over a municipal government for itself would discriminate --

13 I'll start again.

14 The question I want to ask you is in relation to one ethnic group

15 taking over a municipality. It would be discriminatory, would it not, for

16 one ethnic group to take over the organs of government and not allow other

17 ethnic groups to participate in the government, wouldn't it?

18 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honour. This is a highly

19 hypothetic and speculative question. Maybe my learned friend can go

20 directly. Do you think that the Serbs from Samac in 1992 -- what does it

21 mean? I mean, otherwise we are in theory, in the level of theory. It

22 does not help the proceedings here.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Mr. Pantelic, you won't direct the Prosecution

24 how to cross-examine. The Prosecution is in order. They can go ahead.

25 MR. RE:

1 Q. It would be discriminatory, would it not, for one ethnic group to

2 take over the organs of government and not allow other ethnic groups to

3 participate in the government; wouldn't it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And that would not be something that you would participate in;

6 correct?

7 A. I was not involved in personnel policy, but no, probably not.

8 MR. RE: Could the witness please be shown P124.

9 Q. We already know that on the 28th of March, 1992 you were elected a

10 member of the executive council of the Serbian Municipality -- Serbian

11 Assembly of Bosanski Samac. We already know that. It's in evidence

12 here.

13 I want you to turn to Article 5 of the constitution -- I'm sorry,

14 of the decision to establish an Assembly of the Serbian People. That's

15 the first decision inside the document. Article 5, "The assembly of the

16 Serbian People of Bosanski Samac, et cetera, shall consist of the deputies

17 of the Serbian Democratic Party of Bosanski Samac, Gradacac, Orasje, and

18 Odzak. Other deputies of Serbian ethnicity shall also become deputies of

19 the Assembly of the Serbian People of Bosanski Samac and Pelagicevo upon

20 signing a statement of secession to the assembly." Have you read that?

21 Now, that, of course, was the statute of the -- or that, of

22 course, related to the body which took over government in Bosanski Samac,

23 didn't it?

24 A. Not at this moment.

25 Q. This was published in the gazette on the 3rd of June, 1994, year

1 1, number 1.

2 A. This is probably a mistake. I don't know how this could be

3 published in 1994, because the decision dates back in 1992.

4 Q. Well, whatever -- whatever its publication date, this article only

5 allows for, "Deputies of the Serbian Democratic Party and other deputies

6 of Serbian ethnicity to participate -- or sorry, to become deputies of the

7 assembly, doesn't it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The document does not contemplate Muslims, Croats, or people of

10 other ethnicities to become deputies of the Serbian assembly, does it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And of course, this was the assembly which was in power in the

13 town -- sorry, in the municipality after the takeover, wasn't it?

14 A. This was the assembly that was held in December 1992.

15 Q. It was also the assembly that was held in December -- I withdraw

16 that. 1992.

17 So in 1992, the assembly did not allow non-Serbs to participate in

18 it, did it?

19 A. This decision. In the course of 1992, until the 17th of April,

20 there was only one assembly which was official. That was the multi-ethnic

21 assembly.

22 Q. You just referred to an assembly in December 1992. That assembly

23 was held as a result of this decision, wasn't it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And that -- this decision does not allow non-Serbs to participate

1 as deputies in the assembly, does it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. It is a discriminatory document, isn't it? It discriminates

4 against non-Serbs on its terms, doesn't it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In Article 9 of that decision, it says, "Distribution of assets

7 and liabilities and the takeover of public -- sorry, of property, public

8 books, and other documentation shall be carried out via mixed commissions,

9 composed of representatives of the municipality of the Serbian People and

10 representatives of existing assemblies." That's what it says, doesn't it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And this article is directed at the Serbian Assembly of Bosanski

13 Samac taking over the assets, liabilities, public property books, and

14 documentation of the existing democratically-elected municipality --

15 Municipal Assembly of Bosanski Samac, isn't it?

16 A. Yes, if a division of assets and liabilities takes place.

17 Q. Well, of course the existing democratically-elected Assembly of --

18 Municipal Assembly of Bosanski Samac wasn't consulted before this decision

19 was made in Article 9, was it?

20 A. I did not participate in its work, but probably not.

21 MR. RE: Can the witness please be shown P71.

22 Q. You, Mr. Lukic, handed over -- I withdraw.

23 Mr. Lukic, you are aware, are you not, of the numbering of Crisis

24 Staff decisions, weren't you? Mr. Lukic?

25 A. You're referring to the number?

1 Q. Look at me, not the document. You are aware, are you not, of the

2 numbering order of Crisis Staff documents, weren't you?

3 A. No. They had a protocol of their own.

4 Q. From your work, working with the Crisis Staff, you were aware of

5 the numbering of their decisions sequentially, just like the executive

6 committee did, weren't you?

7 A. That's how it should be.

8 Q. One, two, three, four, five, six, and so on.

9 A. [No interpretation]

10 Q. The document you have in front of you is number 95-10/92, isn't

11 it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In 1998 -- I'm sorry, in December 1996 Tribunal investigators

14 visited you in your office in Bosanski Samac in relation to documents,

15 didn't they?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you told them -- you told them that you had some documents but

18 some were with someone's counsel in Belgrade.

19 A. I don't remember saying that, that some of the documents were with

20 someone's counsel. I remember that the investigators were there and that

21 I had given them all of the documents that were at my disposal. Ms. Nancy

22 visited me and Ms. Maria Velinkonja [phoen] as far as I remember.

23 Q. Yes. And in April 1998, Mr. Pisarevic handed over a large number

24 of documents which you had produced or you had found relating to the

25 Crisis Staff and the War Presidency.

1 A. I gave documents only to Ms. Nancy and Ms. Maria.

2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honours. I don't

3 know where this comes from, what my colleague is saying, that I received

4 documents from Mr. Lukic and the documents that he had from some other

5 sources. No, we never received any document from Mr. Lukic.

6 MR. RE: I can't take that any further. If that's -- if I'm wrong

7 about that, I withdraw it and I apologise.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I was just wondering about counsel giving

9 evidence on that point.

10 MR. RE: It was information I was given. It may be incorrect.

11 Q. You signed a receipt on the 11th of June, 1998 for the receipt of

12 several hundred Crisis Staff documents.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In those documents you handed over Crisis Staff documents --

15 A. I signed this for whom?

16 Q. To the Tribunal. It acknowledged the receipt of --

17 A. Oh, I see. Yes.

18 Q. There's a handwritten --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... several hundred documents.

21 The document in front of you, P71, wasn't one of those, was it?

22 A. I don't know. I handed over all the documentation that I had

23 received, that is, the documentation that was in the archives of the

24 municipal assembly, but I don't know whether this one was amongst those.

25 I cannot remember.

1 Q. Do you remember seeing that document before?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Is it a decision you're familiar with, the isolation of Croats?

4 A. No. I only see this decision here, but I've seen it with the

5 counsel.

6 Q. Which counsel was that?

7 A. I'm referring to Mr. Pantelic.

8 Q. On the 30th of June, 1993 you were awarded a Vidovdan award,

9 weren't you, that's a St. Vitus Day award.

10 A. On the 30th of June. It's possible, yes, because I received

11 similar awards in 1997, 1998, 1999. So it's quite possible.

12 Q. And on the 30th of June, 1993 you received an award with Blagoje

13 Simic, Milan Simic, Stevan Todorovic. You received a decoration for your

14 "selfless contribution to the struggle for freedom and the defence of the

15 Republika Srpska."

16 A. It was not a decoration. It was a kind of commendation which was

17 given to me by the assembly, by the municipal assembly. The assembly

18 could issue -- could honour someone by giving him or her commendations,

19 honorary plaques, and so on.

20 Q. I'm reading from the Official Gazette of Bosanski Samac, which is

21 in evidence here, item 35.

22 MR. RE: Perhaps the witness could be shown Exhibit P126. 126.

23 Q. Turn to Article 35, please.

24 MR. RE: I have translations here for the -- which I've handed out

25 which I can possibly tender.

1 A. Excuse me. Which decision?

2 Q. 35. Paragraph 35.

3 A. Of which decision?

4 Q. It's Article 35 of the --

5 A. Of which decision, please, on municipal awards.

6 MR. RE: Could I just have a look at that for a moment.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The witness is seeking clarification.

8 MR. RE: Could I just have a look at the document.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Maybe we could be of assistance. It's page 4 --

10 it's page 4 of this Official Gazette, and the number for this decision is

11 35, on the top left-hand corner.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.

13 MR. RE:

14 Q. Do you see it now, Mr. Lukic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Article 5, where you -- Mr. Simic -- the two Mr. Simics and Stevan

17 Todorovic were all jointly awarded decorations for your selfless

18 contributions for the struggle for freedom and defence of the --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please slow down.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Re, the -- whenever you are reading or you are

21 speaking please do slow down because of the interpreters.

22 MR. RE: I will.

23 Q. "For their selfless contribution for the struggle of freedom and

24 the defence of Republika Srpska." I just want to ask you: What was

25 Mr. Blagoje -- Dr. Blagoje Simic's selfless contribution for the struggle

1 for freedom and the defence of Republika Srpska?

2 A. This is a decision adopted by the assembly. It was the assembly

3 that adopted this decision. I could not comment on the position taken by

4 the commission for decorations.

5 Q. What was your own selfless contribution to the struggle for

6 freedom and the defence of the Republika Srpska?

7 A. I received a decoration for my work, for my work in the executive

8 council in the field of economy and social work.

9 Q. Well, that's not what it says. It says for your selfless

10 contribution to the struggle for freedom and the defence of Republika

11 Srpska. It doesn't say for humanitarian work, does it?

12 A. In the decision on decorations, it is specified. This is just a

13 general provision. I know that the commendation states that I was

14 decorated for my work in the field of economy and social work.

15 Q. What about in Article 2 with Crni?

16 A. Yes. There are other names here as well.

17 [Prosecution counsel confer]

18 MR. RE: Your Honour, I note the time. I have almost finished.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: So?

20 MR. RE: I'm just noting the time.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: This is the last question?

22 MR. RE: For today?

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Because you are saying you've almost finished, so

24 I'm asking what that means.

25 MR. RE: It may take me another ten minutes or so -- or five to

1 ten minutes. That's all I'm saying.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Since there's going to be re-examination anyway,

4 we'll adjourn until tomorrow.

5 Tomorrow we are starting our session at 0930 hours and we'll sit

6 in the afternoon as well. So the court will rise.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

8 at 7.02 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

9 the 28th day of November, 2002, at 9.30 a.m.

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