1 Friday, 14 March 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. Case number IT-95-9-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic, you're continuing.

10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Good morning, Your

11 Honours.

12 WITNESS: RADOVAN ANTIC [Resumed]

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Examined by Mr. Pisarevic: [Continued]

15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Antic. Can you hear me?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Very well. Thank you. Yesterday we talked about your media

18 appearances related to the 4th Detachment, et cetera. Now we're going to

19 move on to another subject. It has to do with events that occurred

20 between the end of 1991, all the way up to the 16th and 17th of April,

21 1992. So all of this has to do with that particular time period.

22 Tell me: What do you know about the things that were happening in

23 the town of Samac and around the town of Samac, all those things that, in

24 a way, complicated the security and political situation in the

25 municipality?

1 A. I know, I know very well the situation in that period, that is to

2 say, from the 5th of January onwards, from when the 4th Detachment was

3 established as a regular unit of the Yugoslav army. Things were happening

4 very quickly. Practically every day made things even more complicated

5 from a political point of view and also from the point of view of the

6 security of the town itself and the municipality as a whole. There was an

7 increase in ethnic tensions that was expressed through the activity of

8 political parties, through different forms of arming citizens for various

9 reasons. Many incidents occurred, such as arson, various diversions, the

10 destruction of various buildings, torching religious buildings, destroying

11 transmission lines. In a word, all this threatened with the danger of

12 impairing interethnic relations in general and also the danger of possible

13 conflicts was looming over.

14 Q. Thank you. Do you know about the following: That a civilian

15 passenger car was being shot at, and in that car were persons who happened

16 to be members of the 4th Detachment?

17 A. I remember very well that something was launched by the SDA.

18 Ethnic Muslims, members of the 4th Detachment, were called various

19 derogatory names in this leaflet. They were called traitors.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, before the witness launches

21 into this description of this event, it's not at all clear whether the

22 witness was present, is talking from the point of view of an eyewitness,

23 or whether he is relating hearsay, whether he has been informed this is

24 what happened. It's important for you to know that particular aspect.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: The basis.

1 MR. DI FAZIO: The basis of what he's saying, otherwise you can't

2 evaluate what he's saying. So that should be clarified before he launches

3 into a description of it.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic. I'm sure you understand the

5 point the Prosecution is making.

6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 Q. Did you have the opportunity of seeing that leaflet?

8 A. Yes. In the command we had this leaflet in our hands.

9 Q. And what was on the leaflet?

10 A. I've already said that members of the 4th Detachment who belonged

11 to the Muslim people were called traitors, and they were called upon to

12 leave the 4th Detachment. But this was only one of the forms of pressure

13 against the members of the 4th Detachment who were not ethnic Serbs.

14 There were other things that were happening. My men complained to me

15 about all these circumstances, so I have full insight into what was the

16 intention of this leaflet.

17 Q. Was any kind of ultimatum presented in this leaflet, in terms of

18 leaving the 4th Detachment?

19 A. Yes. At the end of this leaflet there was an ultimatum that, by

20 the 6th of April, I think -- by the 6th of April, yes, that they should

21 leave the 4th Detachment. We at the command, as we analysed this leaflet,

22 believed that this was not too serious a matter, but the event that

23 followed on the very next day pointed out that this was a very serious

24 threat.

25 Q. What happened on the next day?

1 A. Next to a coffee bar, in the evening hours the next day, a

2 passenger car was driving by, and three members of the detachment wearing

3 civilian clothes were in the car. I wish to point out that there were two

4 Muslims and one Serb in the car. If necessary, I can give their names.

5 Q. Please do.

6 A. The members of the detachment who were in this civilian car were

7 Mersad Mesic, who was a butcher in Samac. He was a very well-known person

8 in Samac. There was another man, Nizam Ramusovic, who was also a member

9 of the 4th Detachment. His nickname was Tota. And the third person in

10 that car was Vitomir Danilovic, who is a Serb.

11 Q. Thank you. Do you know, do you have any information, as to who

12 fired these shots at the car in which the members of the 4th Detachment

13 were?

14 MR. DI FAZIO: No objection to the evidence, but you have to know

15 the source that this witness is relying upon to relate this to you. Is

16 he -- something that he read in the papers, that he was told by people who

17 were there, something that he saw with his own eyes? Only by getting that

18 information can you then assess this evidence. But again, I have no

19 objection to the actual content of the evidence; it's just the source that

20 this witness is using to relate this.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, if you can lay the basis of his

22 knowledge.

23 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I have understood these

24 instructions.

25 Q. How did you find out about the shooting, and who actually did the

1 shooting?

2 A. Since Samac is a small town, people find out very quickly about

3 anything that happens. We found out about that practically the same

4 evening, perhaps within an hour or so. We found out about this from the

5 people who helped them at that moment. We at the command, as we analysed

6 this incident, we asked the public security station in Samac to get

7 involved immediately, to see who the perpetrators were, because it was not

8 all the same to us as to what happened to our members. We at the command

9 were duty-bound to take care of their safety and security.

10 A few days later, the station informed us who the perpetrators

11 were, and they said that the perpetrators, the perpetrators -- just a

12 minute, please. Let me remember. Izetbegovic, Adis. He had been a pupil

13 of mine at school. He is the son of one of the vice-presidents of the

14 Party of Democratic Action in Samac. Izet Izetbegovic.

15 The second perpetrator was a man by the last name of Srna. I

16 think his first name was Safet, Safet Srna, also from Samac, also a member

17 of the party of democratic action.

18 Q. Thank you. Are you aware of the fact -- actually, in what

19 capacity were they acting then?

20 A. Do you mean the members of the 4th Detachment?

21 Q. No. I'm referring to the perpetrators.

22 A. I know that the Party of Democratic Action did patrol town. Very

23 often they were armed. This incident also showed that in these activities

24 they carried weapons.

25 Q. Do you know anything about what happened at the Valentino Cafe?

1 Just tell me whether you know about it.

2 A. Yes, I do, because my apartment is right by that cafe. It's about

3 30 metres away only, so I'm quite aware of this incident.

4 Q. All right. That evening when this incident occurred, on the 14th

5 of February, 1992, were you by any chance in front of the public security

6 station of Bosanski Samac?

7 A. At the moment when that happened and when people found out about

8 this event, people started gathering spontaneously in front of the

9 supermarket, and the supermarket is right by that cafe. I noticed that

10 for the most part, the people gathering there were ethnic Muslims. This

11 gathering of citizens, it was a protest, in my assessment. These people

12 moved to the police station, most probably wanting to establish the truth

13 related to that incident.

14 Q. I asked you whether you were there.

15 A. Yes, I was, in front of the police station, with these citizens,

16 and people were shouting out slogans, if I can put it that way, or

17 actually, these were insults addressed to the Serb people, or rather, they

18 were blaming the 4th Detachment for what had happened.

19 Q. How did this gathering end?

20 A. After a brief period of time, the man named Hadzialijagic came out

21 of the police station. I think his nickname was Coner. He was actually

22 the brother of the father of one of those young men who had been killed.

23 He spoke to the people gathered there. He appealed for tensions to calm

24 down, and after a while the people dispersed.

25 Q. Do you know anything about the setting up of barricades at the

1 entrances to the town of Bosanski Samac?

2 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pisarevic. Before you move on to

3 that question -- that issue, rather: I don't find that Mr. Antic has

4 clearly answers the questions that you have put to him. On page 5, line

5 25, you asked Mr. Antic: "Do you know anything about what happened at the

6 Valentino Cafe? Just tell me what you know about it." Mr. Antic

7 answers: He knows about it because his apartment is right by the cafe.

8 But at the time of the incident, pursuant to your other question, it

9 appears that he's in front of the SUP building at the time of the

10 incident. So it's not exactly clear. So if you could just clarify that

11 before you move on to the barricades issue.

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Honour.

13 Q. This event -- you understand the question?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Please answer, then.

16 A. Of course, I was not actually in the coffee bar, but according to

17 our information, two boys, or rather, two young men, aged about 18, 17 or

18 18, were having fun and toying about with a hand grenade. They would

19 throw it to one another and catch it. And at one point, one of them

20 probably made a mistake and the grenade was activated. It exploded. And

21 those two young men were killed. An ambulance arrived, which took them to

22 the hospital, but afterwards we found out that they had died. When they

23 were wounded and killed, another girl of Serb ethnicity was seriously

24 injured.

25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: And just one little follow-up question: How did

1 you, therefore, find out about it? You say "we had information." The

2 question is: In order to recount this scenario to us, you should tell us

3 where your information came from, being that, as you say, you were not

4 present in the cafe at the time.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely, I was not physically

6 present in the coffee bar. However, it was just under my window that the

7 people had gathered, so that's how I found out about what had happened.

8 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Sorry to belabour the point. Last question on

9 this: So at the time the incident occurred, you were in your apartment,

10 which is 30 metres away from the cafe; you were not in front of the SUP

11 building?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. First people started gathering

13 outside the coffee bar. I saw this through my window and I came out of my

14 building. I saw the people gathered there. After a brief while, this

15 group of people started moving down the street towards the SUP building

16 and I joined them.

17 JUDGE WILLIAMS: That clarifies it. Thank you very much.

18 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. We're coming back to this incident now. Do you know that after

20 the incident there was a gathering of citizens at the local cinema? Do

21 you know who went to the meeting outside the 4th Detachment?

22 A. I don't think I can speak about that particular event, because I

23 wasn't present.

24 Q. My question -- previous question was related to the barricades.

25 What do you know about the barricades that were set up at the entrances to

1 the town of Samac in March?

2 A. In view of the tasks faced by the command of the 4th Detachment,

3 in view of its implementation and monitoring duties, we reviewed the

4 security situation in the town, and we found out that during that period -

5 it was a Saturday, more specifically - barricades had been set up at two

6 entrances to the town of Samac. You can reach Samac from two directions

7 only, two main roads, roads leading into the town. At the entrances to

8 Samac, barricades had been set up by the SDA, and these barricades were

9 mostly manned by SDA members. When we found out about this, we at the

10 command reported to our Superior Command, and we were told, that is,

11 ordered, that the 4th Detachment should not get involved in this, because

12 it was no task for the 4th Detachment. We assessed the situation

13 ourselves and we believed that this was endangering the safe flow of

14 traffic and that it was up to the secretariat of the interior to take care

15 of that.

16 Q. Very well. Thank you.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Before we continue, can I please ask the registry

18 assistant to inform the people, whatever they are drilling, they are

19 making a lot of noise for our proceedings.

20 Yes, please continue.

21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Do you know how the barricades were eventually removed?

23 A. In the afternoon hours of that same day, the barricades were

24 removed. However, the event affected the citizens of Samac in a very

25 negative way, because many people could not receive medical assistance.

1 Many people could not leave town, and so on and so forth.

2 Q. Very well. All these events, finding out who the perpetrators

3 were, and other activities that were being done, which of the state

4 organs were in charge of all these things?

5 A. These tasks were to be carried out by organs, or rather, bodies of

6 internal affairs.

7 Q. What do you know, and how did you find out about the arrival of

8 two helicopters in the village of Batkusa, in the area of the Bosanski

9 Samac municipality?

10 A. We found out that in the village of Batkusa, which happens to be

11 where I was born, two helicopters had landed, and that persons came out of

12 these two helicopters who were wearing camouflage uniforms and they had

13 their faces painted. A short while later, we found out that those were

14 volunteers from Serbia.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Again, if Your Honours please, this is the sort of

16 issue that it's, in my submission, absolutely crucial for you to know the

17 source of this witness's information. He says "we found out." You should

18 know how he found out, when he found out, who told him, what was the

19 source of information, whether it was a document that he read, whether it

20 was spies in the field, the activities of Mr. Zaric, or who knows what

21 other source of information it was that allows him now to give this

22 evidence. It's very important, in the Prosecution's submission, for you

23 to know that.

24 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness has not

25 even completed his answer. My question was: What does he know, and how

1 does he know what he knows. So I think we should allow the witness to

2 complete his answer first.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry if my objection was premature.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Continue, please. How did you find out about this? Who told you,

7 and so on?

8 A. I learned about this event from the locals. Anyone who comes

9 along from Batkusa knows me or knows my family. They know me in

10 connection to certain events. The following day, I believe, I had

11 occasion to see for myself what had happened, because my father-in-law's

12 house was actually a hundred metres from the football pitch in Batkusa.

13 Q. Can you please tell us exactly: You say that you had an

14 opportunity to see for yourself that they were present there. How did

15 that happen exactly?

16 A. I drove with my family to the village, to visit my relatives.

17 Outside the communal hall in Batkusa, the building of which I had

18 initiated, I was stopped by two men with painted faces. One was standing

19 on the one end and the other on the other side of the road. They looked

20 at my documents. They checked the boot of my car. So I had a personal

21 run-in, or rather, encounter, with these men.

22 Q. Did you receive any information from the command of the 17th

23 Tactical Group or from your intelligence officers from the detachment?

24 A. Of course, we did have all the information. As the commander of

25 the 4th Detachment, whose area of responsibility was Samac, and Samac

1 only, was in no position to take any steps with respect to that particular

2 event.

3 Q. Did you find out who met those people in Batkusa on that day?

4 A. I was informed that they had arrived and at the same time I was

5 told that they had been met at the football pitch by Stevan Todorovic.

6 Q. Very well. Thank you. Did you have any other additional

7 information about the people who had arrived at that time?

8 A. I had information that, in addition to the volunteers who had

9 arrived from Serbia, there were a number of citizens there from the area

10 of Samac municipality.

11 Q. Do you know in what capacity they were there?

12 A. I heard -- I merely heard; I did not personally witness this, nor

13 do I have any information on anything that had gone on before, but I heard

14 that those were people from the area of Samac municipality and that those

15 people had been sent for training, over to Serbia.

16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pisarevic. You asked the

17 question, on page 11, line 22, how the witness -- or you asked the

18 witness: "Did you receive any information from the command of the 17th

19 Tactical Group or from your intelligence officers from the detachment?"

20 And the witness simply answered: "Of course, we did have all the

21 information," but he didn't answer your question. Was it from the 17th

22 Tactical Group? Was it from his own people, maybe Mr. Zaric, maybe

23 somebody else in the 4th Detachment? So it's the same. And it also, with

24 respect to your last question too, the witness simply says, concerning a

25 number of citizens also there with the volunteers from Samac, he says, he

1 heard, he merely heard, but he doesn't say how he heard.

2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. You have understood the question?

4 A. Yes, indeed I have. I said my personal information, but we also

5 had information that we had obtained down the chain of command, that is,

6 the 17th Tactical Group, intelligence and security information. And

7 Mr. Zaric, my assistant, had the same information, and he told me about

8 it.

9 Q. Who did you hear from about this group of people from Samac

10 municipality who had been sent to a training programme?

11 A. At the command, we were informed about this group of citizens.

12 Mostly those were young people in their late teenage who had not yet gone

13 to their regular military service, or a number of them who had already

14 served in the army. We heard that those men had been sent for training.

15 But personally, I had no information as to who had gathered them, who had

16 sent them there, or who had trained them.

17 Q. Who specifically told you that that group of young men had been

18 sent to training, you at the command? Because you keep saying "we at the

19 command." I'm asking you specifically. Who at the command told you this?

20 A. Mr. Zaric is in charge of intelligence and security, and he was

21 the one who always informed the commander about these matters.

22 Q. Which means you found out from Mr. Zaric?

23 A. Yes, from Mr. Zaric, at the command, I had personal information.

24 Q. Do you know anything about the activities carried out in Samac

25 municipality with regard to preventing the outbreak of hostilities and

1 helping to allay the tensions? Who did you send to those meetings on

2 behalf of the 4th Detachment?

3 A. The basic policy of the command of the 4th Detachment was to

4 prevent ethnic strife and allay the tensions between the ethnic groups.

5 We wanted at all costs to prevent Samac from war destruction, Samac, the

6 town, as well as its citizens. For that reason, the command was very keen

7 on attending all the meetings that were taking place throughout the local

8 commune, meetings with whatever parties were organising the meetings. We

9 always had our own proposals. We would always put forward proposals as to

10 how the situation was to be -- was to improve. In terms of my personal

11 duties at the command, I allowed Mr. Zaric to go to these meetings and

12 attend them on behalf of the 4th Detachment.

13 Q. After these meetings were held, did Zaric brief you as his

14 commander about everything that had been discussed?

15 A. With regard to everything that happened, Mr. Zaric informed the

16 commander of the 4th Detachment. As a matter of fact, he informed us

17 about events that were of a broader significance. But he also informed us

18 about requests of specific political parties, notably, the SDS [as

19 interpreted], because we were under great pressure, namely, that the 4th

20 Detachment, as a regular unit of the Yugoslav People's Army, should be

21 involved --

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: Just one correction in the transcript while the

23 witness is still answering. It's on page 14, line 18. It was SDA, not

24 SDS.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Perhaps that can be corrected with the

1 witness.

2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. The pressure you mentioned came from which party?

4 A. The pressure of the SDA, that the 4th Detachment, as a regular

5 unit of the Yugoslav People's Army, should be involved in the newly

6 established Territorial Defence in town. This was an impossible request,

7 because Simo Zaric or I, or my superior, ever ordered me to do anything

8 like that. So this was an impossible request that was put forth by that

9 party.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Again, if Your Honours please, no objection, but I

11 submit that you would be helped if you knew if the witness is saying that

12 this was an ongoing policy or this happened at a particular occasion at a

13 particular time, that the SDA adopted this view that the 4th Detachment be

14 involved in the newly established Territorial Defence, whether it was a

15 one-off occasion or whether it was an ongoing policy.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Counsel can --

17 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Now I'm going to put that

18 question. Yes, by all means.

19 Q. This request of the Party of Democratic Action, when was it put to

20 the 4th Detachment, or rather, that the 4th Detachment should join the

21 newly established Territorial Defence in town? Can you remember the day

22 when this meeting was held, where this request was put forth?

23 A. I wish to say that the 4th Detachment was under certain pressure

24 all the time, all the time. We are not talking about a given point in

25 time or a single event. This request was the culmination in terms of what

1 the 4th Detachment constituted in the town of Samac. This was put forth

2 on the 16th of April, that is to say, on the eve of those events. It

3 involved -- Mr. Zaric was very worked up when he informed the command of

4 the 4th Detachment about this.

5 Q. Can you say when this new TO was established, the one that the 4th

6 Detachment was invited to join?

7 A. This was, to the best of my recollection, three days before the

8 events in Samac. I personally observed members of the Territorial Defence

9 staff leaving. Some carried rifles. I saw one carrying a submachine-gun.

10 They were carrying rucksacks and they were carrying equipment in

11 tarpaulins on their backs. I saw that personally.

12 Q. When did you find out who was appointed the new commander of the

13 Territorial Defence staff and who was appointed Chief of Staff of the

14 Territorial Defence?

15 A. The Chief of Staff of the Territorial Defence was a person, I

16 think he held the rank of captain, and this appointee was Marko

17 Bozanovic.

18 Q. What is he in ethnic terms?

19 A. He's a Croat.

20 Q. The other person?

21 A. The other person was Alija Fitozovic, an ethnic Muslim.

22 Q. I asked you when you found out about that.

23 A. We found out about that, I think, right after this Territorial

24 Defence staff was established.

25 Q. All right. Thank you. Now we are going to move on to the 16th

1 and 17th of April, 1992. You remember that night?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Tell me: Did the 4th Detachment, or rather, the command of the

4 4th Detachment, take any special measures that night? Did you, as

5 commander, order anything?

6 A. I, as commander of the 4th Detachment, did not have any

7 information that anything could be happening during that night. We had

8 regular activities on the 16th. I already said that Mr. Zaric was at the

9 meeting, and he informed the 4th Detachment, and we went home to bed.

10 Q. And what happened? What happened that night between the 16th and

11 the 17th?

12 A. I was in my apartment. I was asleep. And at one moment, I heard

13 occasional shooting. I mean, a gunshot or two would be heard, and then

14 there would be a lull, and then the shooting would start again. I woke

15 up, I looked at the clock, and I saw that it was 3.00, after midnight.

16 When I heard that, I knew that something was going on. I called the

17 person who was on duty by telephone immediately, because we always had a

18 person on duty at the command. So I telephoned this person, this duty

19 officer at the command, and he said to me, because he found out from our

20 patrols that had been agreed upon earlier at local commune level -- well,

21 this duty officer found out from this patrol that there was fighting going

22 on in town. I ordered the duty officer to call the command immediately,

23 the entire command staff to come to the Sit building.

24 Q. Did you come to the command too?

25 A. Yes, I did. I came to the command. Most of the members of the

1 command had already arrived. They came a bit before I did, because their

2 apartments are right by the command, whereas my apartment is a bit further

3 away, towards the Sava River.

4 When we gathered there at the command, the duty officer gave us

5 more detailed information, because the other members of the command did

6 not know what was going on, because the duty officer had informed me about

7 what had been going on. So he informed us about what he had found out

8 from our patrols that were on duty during that night, every other night,

9 for that matter, and they were patrolling our area of responsibility.

10 When I found out about that, I ordered my signalsman to establish

11 communications with the command. I ordered him to establish a link with

12 my Superior Command, that is. He did that. And I informed my commander,

13 Lieutenant Colonel Stevan Nikolic, about what was going on in Samac.

14 Q. All right. Let's just take it one thing at a time. Let's explain

15 these patrols that you mentioned, that functioned on the basis of the

16 agreement reached at the Samac local commune. What were their tasks, and

17 where did they patrol, actually?

18 A. Our patrols patrolled along the line of the area of responsibility

19 of the 4th Detachment, that is to say, the right bank of the Bosna River,

20 the right bank of the Sava River, up to the bridge, and some patrols also

21 towards some important facilities, so that sabotages would not take

22 place. These patrols had been agreed upon at local commune level.

23 After an event -- I mean, I would call it an incident, when the

24 military police patrol disarmed a group of SDA members. In order for

25 these incidents not to take place any longer, all parties -- or rather, I

1 don't know whether it was all parties that agreed, but anyway, agreement

2 was reached at local commune level, and through our regular activities, we

3 established these patrols and we gave them this assignment to patrol the

4 area, in order to prevent any incursions from armed groups from

5 elsewhere. But these patrols could also collect information for the

6 command of the 4th Detachment.

7 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the SDA also had its own patrols

8 that were carrying out a similar function but within the town itself,

9 within Bosanski Samac itself?

10 A. Yes, the SDA had organised its own patrols. I said that one of

11 these patrols was disarmed during one particular incident. However, I

12 personally experienced the following thing: The members of the SDA, all

13 of whom I knew personally, followed me around town, everywhere I went.

14 Q. Thank you. And who disarmed this SDA patrol?

15 A. They were disarmed by the military police of the 17th Tactical

16 Group.

17 Q. Did the 4th Detachment have a military police of their own?

18 A. No. According to its very establishment, the 4th Detachment did

19 not have a military police.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Before you move on: When was this incident where

22 the 4th Detachment disarmed the SDA patrol? Was it between the 16th or

23 17th, or before the 16th of April?

24 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Let's just clarify something: When did this event occur? When

1 did the military police of the 17th Tactical Group disarm the SDA patrol?

2 A. I think it was as far back as February.

3 Q. So this was not between the 16th and 17th of April?

4 A. No. No.

5 JUDGE LINDHOLM: I have a question here. I beg your pardon. On

6 page 18, about lines 24, 25, you talk about the patrols established by the

7 4th Detachment, and they were established in order to prevent any

8 incursions from armed groups from elsewhere. What do you mean by those

9 words "groups from elsewhere"? Were also, for instance, the so-called

10 volunteers coming to Batkusa included in that concept?

11 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. The Honourable Judge put a question to you. Let's just clarify

13 this. Could you just clarify this: What were the tasks of that patrol?

14 Did that patrol, for example, prevent the group from Batkusa from coming

15 in?

16 A. The patrols consisted of three persons respectively. Usually they

17 comprised two Serbs and one Muslim, or two Serbs and one Croat. Sometimes

18 it was different. The patrols were not strong enough to act against any

19 armed group physically. As the word itself says, they were patrolling the

20 area. They were collecting information. They were observing various

21 facilities, et cetera. That is to say that they were not capable of

22 opposing any kind of armed formation.

23 Q. Now you've given a more comprehensive answer, but you did say

24 where the patrols did their work.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. But tell us: Did such patrols exist on the southern entrance into

2 town and the eastern entrance into town? Where did these patrols go?

3 A. The patrols covered all of town, the entire town, from the south

4 and from the other side, because the entire town of Samac was our area of

5 responsibility.

6 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pisarevic. I'm not sure whether

7 Judge Lindholm's question has been answered in entirety, being that Judge

8 Lindholm was asking these patrols, inter alia, were responsible for

9 preventing any incursions from armed groups from elsewhere, and Mr. Antic

10 has now said that "they were observing facilities, that is to say, they

11 were not capable of opposing any kind of armed formation." So I don't

12 find this very clear. If one of their objectives was to prevent any

13 incursions, but they weren't capable of opposing any kind of armed

14 formation, it doesn't follow. Maybe you could clarify it. It's not

15 really making that much sense.

16 JUDGE LINDHOLM: That was exactly the meaning by my question.

17 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Can you please clarify this to the Trial Chamber: What tasks,

19 specifically, did these patrols have? To oppose or different tasks? You,

20 as their commander, what tasks did you assign to them, those patrols that

21 were patrolling facilities, or the town in general, what tasks were they

22 given? What instructions did you provide? What were they supposed to do

23 in case of incursions by armed groups?

24 A. The command gave these patrols the task to observe the lines of

25 responsibility, to gather intelligence. But by no means did they have

1 approval for armed combat or to get involved in any armed conflict.

2 Q. Does this mean, for example, that in case of an incursion by an

3 armed group, they did not have the authority to open fire or to use the

4 weapons, whatever weapons they had?

5 A. That's true. They had no authority to do that.

6 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Well, I'm grateful for the answer, but it's not,

7 so to say, in -- there is some kind of conflict between what was said by

8 the witness earlier, that the patrols were responsible for preventing any

9 incursions from armed groups from elsewhere. So this is now modified.

10 Their main task was to patrol and report about what they had seen, not to

11 take part in any armed combat?

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Can you please clarify the following: A moment ago, you said that

14 their task was to prevent. What exactly did you mean? Is it what you've

15 just told us?

16 A. Yes. Their duty to prevent -- the meaning of their duty to

17 prevent, in such a case, with such developments, would have been to report

18 the command of the 4th Detachment. The patrols could not take any action

19 of their own, but they gathered intelligence, they gathered information

20 for the command of the 4th Detachment; their members did.

21 Q. Let me get this straight. They would provide information on

22 possible incursions by armed groups, or appearances of armed groups, and

23 then report this to the command; that was all in terms of prevention, as

24 far as they were concerned?

25 A. That's exactly what the patrols did, in terms of preventing

1 incursions by armed groups. They would simply gather information.

2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] A moment, please. I need to

3 consult with my colleague.

4 [Defence counsel confer]

5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. The president of the Trial Chamber asked you a question that we

7 have not yet answered. The question was: When did the patrol of the 4th

8 Detachment disarm the patrol of the SDA? Did it ever happen that the

9 patrol or the 4th Detachment disarmed any patrol belonging to the SDA?

10 A. No. The 4th Detachment never disarmed any patrol of the SDA.

11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pisarevic and Mr. Antic. You did

12 say that a patrol disarmed a group of armed SDA members. So if they

13 didn't disarm an SDA patrol, they still disarmed a group of armed SDA

14 members; is that correct?

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: I apologise. Maybe I can assist, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Because I was following here the transcript. I

18 believe that there is one misunderstanding. What the witness said is that

19 the military police of the 17th Tactical Group disarmed, and after that, a

20 follow-up question by Mr. Pisarevic was whether there was any military

21 police within the 4th Detachment, and he answered no. So if I understand

22 correctly, those were not the 4th Detachment who disarmed the SDA patrol;

23 those were members of the 17th Tactical Group from military police.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you for that explanation. I think the

25 evidence was given along those lines by the witness.

1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] So much for that question. Very

2 well. Thank you.

3 Q. Let's now go back to you, being at the command of the 4th

4 Detachment at the Sit building. You told us that radio communication was

5 established with the commander of what you referred to as your Superior

6 Command. Can you please tell us: What was your Superior Command,

7 specifically, the Superior Command of the 4th Detachment of the JNA? Can

8 you please tell us the name of that unit and the name of the commander?

9 A. Superior Command to the 4th Detachment is the command of the 17th

10 Tactical Group. Its commander is Lieutenant Colonel Stevan Nikolic.

11 Q. Why did you call him by radio? Why did you use the communications

12 equipment that you referred to yesterday as RUP 2?

13 A. I used this equipment to call the commander of the 17th Tactical

14 Group, because in the JNA, that was the usual way to get in touch. I can

15 also add that very often in our town, the phone lines were down.

16 Q. Can you remember: When you were at the command, were the phone

17 lines functioning?

18 A. I think not.

19 Q. This RUP 2 machine, these were not Motorolas or anything like

20 that?

21 A. No, not Motorolas. Those were portable radio sets which a

22 qualified communications officer carries with him. And then as soon as he

23 receives an order, he establishes a link or communication, as ordered by

24 the commander. It's the usual equipment used by our units.

25 Q. Can you please tell us: What does it look like, this machine? If

1 you could fill us in with some technical details. How much does it weigh?

2 A. It weighs between 7 and 8 kilogrammes. It's the size of a small

3 suitcase.

4 Q. Where exactly do you carry it?

5 A. On your chest. It's attached to your chest. You have the

6 earphone and you have the speaker.

7 Q. Once you had spoken to the commander, what did you tell him? How

8 did you inform the commander of the 17th Tactical Group, Lieutenant

9 Colonel Nikolic, about what was going on in the town of Samac?

10 A. I conveyed to Commander Nikolic what we at the command knew. We

11 knew that armed fighting was going on in town, or rather, sporadic fire.

12 But as soon as you had the use of firearms, it was automatically some sort

13 of low-level fire-fighting, focusing on a number of facilities or

14 buildings inside the town itself. When I told the commander about this,

15 he ordered me, as commander, and Simo Zaric, as my assistant, to

16 immediately come to the command of the 17th Tactical Group.

17 Q. Very well. Thank you. After you were ordered this, what did you

18 do?

19 A. We drove straight to the command of the 17th Tactical Group. We

20 reached the command about half past 5.00 in the morning.

21 Q. Who received you at the command of the 17th Tactical Group? Who

22 met you there?

23 A. The commander received us, but with him at the command were also

24 his assistants, or chiefs of operational activities, and so on and so

25 forth.

1 Q. Can you please remember any of the names of the people who were

2 present when you met the commander there?

3 A. Yes. Chief Brajkovic was there, and chief of intelligence and

4 security, Maksim Simeunovic, was also present.

5 Q. What did you learn then? What did the commander tell you? And

6 what further orders did he give you?

7 A. As soon as we entered the command building of the 17th Tactical

8 Group, Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic told us that he had already been

9 informed about what was going on, that he had been informed by Mr. Blagoje

10 Simic, and that he had been informed that the Serb police and the

11 volunteers had taken over the town, and that a Crisis Staff of the Serbian

12 municipality of Bosanski Samac had been established.

13 Q. What else were you ordered?

14 A. As commander of the detachment I received orders to mobilise the

15 4th Detachment. From the command where I was, I immediately called my

16 assistant, or rather, deputy, Captain Jovo Savic, who had stayed back at

17 our command. I called him and I told him to immediately carry out the

18 order on the mobilisation of the 4th Detachment.

19 Q. Did you ask for some more detailed instructions from the

20 commander, how you should act in this new situation?

21 A. Yes. As commander, I sought instructions, in view of what was

22 going on, as to how the 4th Detachment should behave in view of the newly

23 established situation. Commander Nikolic ordered us -- ordered me,

24 rather, to go back to the command of the 4th Detachment, to mobilise the

25 detachment, and not to start any other activities.

1 Q. Tell me: You, as commander of the detachment, the 4th Detachment,

2 how did you take such an order, namely, that the detachment should remain

3 on the sidelines?

4 A. As commander, and as a soldier, I'm duty-bound to carry out the

5 orders of my commander of the 17th Tactical Group. I had to accept such a

6 decision.

7 Q. Does that mean that regardless of your personal position, you

8 could not in any way take any action apart from the orders of the

9 commander of the 17th Tactical Group?

10 A. Yes. I cannot take any action. I'm not authorised to take any

11 action related to the engagement of the 4th Detachment if this went

12 outside the orders of my superior officer.

13 Q. And when you returned to Samac, to the command of the 4th

14 Detachment?

15 A. Yes. In view of the distance involved, we returned to the command

16 around 8.00 in the morning, of the 17th, that is, and a number of members

17 of the 4th Detachment had already gathered at the command of the 4th

18 Detachment, because this is where their call-up locality was.

19 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Excuse me. With your permission, I would like to

20 ask a question.

21 I understand very well that you, as a soldier, had to obey the

22 orders given by a superior, but you had, of course, I can assume, a

23 personal opinion and a personal reaction. Were you surprised, taking into

24 account that the task of the 4th Detachment was to defend the town of

25 Bosanski Samac, that you received an order to do nothing, although both

1 your commander Lieutenant Colonel Stevan Nikolic and you were aware that

2 the town had been taken over.

3 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Did you understand the question of His Honour Judge Lindholm?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So can you please answer it now.

7 A. As an officer, it is my duty to carry out orders of the Superior

8 Command. If some other order had been given, I would have had to take the

9 appropriate measures, if I'm a responsible person and if I accept the

10 Yugoslav People's Army to be my own regular army.

11 Q. I shall assist you, so that you would give an answer to the

12 Honourable Judge's question. How did you take this order not to do

13 anything? As a person, as an individual, not as an officer any longer,

14 but in terms of the objectives and the tasks of the 4th Detachment that

15 you spoke about, that they would defend the town of Samac, et cetera,

16 et cetera. This order of the commander, did it surprise you? Did it in a

17 way not live up to your expectations? Did you find it hard to take in a

18 way?

19 A. As person, I was hit hard by everything that was going on in

20 Samac. The entire command of the 4th Detachment felt that way. In a way,

21 this was not in keeping with the objectives of the 4th Detachment. We at

22 the command wanted to prevent any kind of conflict, any kind of formations

23 entering town. That is what I say as a person, as a human being. But as

24 a commander, I had to obey the orders issued by my superior officer.

25 Q. You said that you found a certain number of members of the 4th

1 Detachment who had already come there. On that day, did you get a new

2 order from the commander of the 17th Tactical Group, Lieutenant Colonel

3 Nikolic?

4 A. At that first moment of mobilisation, about 100 members of the 4th

5 Detachment came. According to our estimates, that is not a high call-up

6 response percentage. However, at that moment, many of our members were

7 out of town; others could not have been informed; some simply did not dare

8 leave their houses, out of fear. So that is my explanation for why so few

9 people showed up.

10 Q. Can you give us a percentage as to how many members of the 4th

11 Detachment responded to call-up?

12 A. Since the 4th Detachment had 450 members, if 100 appeared, a bit

13 over a hundred, then that's about 25 per cent.

14 Q. Can you tell us, since you are an officer, when a unit is

15 mobilised according to these military criteria, when is this mobilisation

16 considered to be successful, according to military criteria?

17 A. According to military standards, any call-up response that goes

18 below 95 per cent is considered to be unsuccessful.

19 Q. It is your assessment that this was unsuccessful, the call-up

20 response, the mobilisation of the 4th Detachment?

21 A. At that moment, it was unsuccessful. However, in view of the

22 number of members of the 4th Detachment, the 4th Detachment did have to

23 carry out its task.

24 Q. So what kind of orders did you receive, if any, from Commander

25 Nikolic, from the 17th Tactical Group, and when did this happen, if so?

1 A. What followed soon was an order of the commander of the 17th

2 Tactical Group, Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic. This was around 9.00. The

3 order said that the 4th Detachment should go to the line of its area of

4 responsibility, and that is the right bank of the Sava River, from the

5 bridge to the mouth of the Bosna River into the Sava, and also the right

6 bank of the Bosna River.

7 Q. Are those the embankments protecting the town of Samac from

8 floods?

9 A. Yes, these are embankments. When the water level is high, then

10 they protect Samac, because its level is practically below the level of

11 the water. So it is these embankments that protect the town from floods.

12 Q. And what did you do, as commander, after you received such orders?

13 A. As commander, I personally took the members of my detachment to

14 the line, or rather, to these embankments. As the members of the 4th

15 Detachment were being deployed along this line, we had our first combat

16 experience; namely, one of our members was seriously wounded by sniper

17 fire from a position on the other side of the Sava River, that is to say,

18 from the Republic of Croatia.

19 Q. When did you manage to get the 4th Detachment to this borderline

20 of the area of responsibility of the detachment, and also of the town

21 itself?

22 A. During the day, our members -- other members of our detachment

23 kept coming in, those who were informed about the mobilisation, and until

24 the evening -- by the evening hours, we managed to get to this defence

25 line.

1 Q. Parallel to that, did the 4th Detachment take any other measures?

2 If so, tell us what was done and in what way, and so on.

3 A. Every combat unit and every command has to take care of their

4 members in situation of combat. Right by the embankment, there are

5 apartment buildings where citizens of Samac live. We were ordered that

6 the command should secure the rear of its ranks. Therefore, in that

7 zone - this is only about ten metres or less behind us - we took all

8 measures to collect weapons from citizens who illegally possessed weapons.

9 We were afraid that there might be casualties.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that this

12 would be the right moment to take a break.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll continue at 1100 hours.

14 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

15 --- Upon commencing at 11.04 a.m.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Before we proceed with the evidence, the Trial

17 Chamber has been informed that the accused Mr. Simo Zaric has an

18 appointment with the doctor, in which case, he wouldn't be able to sit in

19 the afternoon, because otherwise it will be late for him. In those

20 circumstances, we will proceed with our normal programme and continue with

21 our proceedings up to 1345 hours.

22 Mr. Pisarevic, you can continue.

23 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

24 Q. Before the break, we spoke about the collection of arms and

25 weapons. Tell us, please: Which specific orders did you give regarding

1 the collection of weapons? How was that to be done? Can you tell us

2 about it, please.

3 A. My order regarding the collection of weapons was very decided. It

4 was that while weapons were being collected, citizens were not to be put

5 under any kind of pressure. The order was that weapons would be collected

6 only from those citizens who decided to hand over their weapons of their

7 own free will. It was not allowed to enter residential buildings, flats,

8 or private houses. Weapons were to be collected in such a way that

9 citizens would bring their weapons outside, to a collection point or to

10 their own garden, and then members of our detachment were to collect these

11 weapons and proceed in keeping with their orders.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, you would be able to

13 understand this better if you knew where this order came from. The

14 witness has said -- it's gone off my screen now, but: We were ordered

15 and then went on to describe something about the collection of weapons.

16 And then has said at page 32, line 2: "My order regarding the collection

17 of weapons was very decided." Just so that the Chamber is clear, we

18 should know where this order for collection of weapons came from; namely,

19 whether it was from further up in the command or whether it emanated from

20 this witness.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sure counsel will be able to clear that.

22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. You've explained how this collection of weapons was done and what

24 the reasons were. Where did you receive the order from to collect

25 automatic weapons?

1 A. We got this order from the command of the 17th Tactical Group, and

2 I forwarded this order and provided detailed instructions as to how I had

3 received this order from the command.

4 Q. Very well. Thank you. How long did this collection of weapons go

5 on for? How many days?

6 A. This began on the 17th, in the afternoon, and was continued on the

7 18th. Because on the 17th, we first took up defence positions along our

8 line of defence, towards the River Bosna. On that afternoon, positions

9 were taken up along the embankment on the River Sava, and then we spread

10 towards the line of defence and in an even broader area on the following

11 day, that is, the 18th.

12 Q. Did you issue any instructions regarding the control of this

13 activity? How was it done exactly?

14 A. Naturally, the order also said -- that is, I specified who would

15 be in control of that. I personally controlled that. But this was being

16 done in a broader area. So I gave the same orders to Mr. Zaric and to

17 Mr. Tadic.

18 Q. Thank you. Were there any violations of this order of yours? Did

19 you receive any information concerning possible violations? And would you

20 have known had there been any violations of your order?

21 A. This collection of weapons went smoothly, without a single

22 incident. I'm able to say that, to confirm that, because no citizens came

23 complaining about anyone acting in a way contrary to my orders.

24 Q. Thank you. What was the order, exactly? Where were these

25 collected weapons to be stored and handed over?

1 A. In the order, I also instructed Mr. Tadic, as the logistics

2 officer, together with the list of the weapons collected, and I believe

3 that we managed to collect about a hundred different pieces. So in

4 addition to this list, this was handed over to the warehouse at the TO

5 staff building, across the road from the police station.

6 Q. You said that various kinds of weapons had been collected. What

7 specific weapons?

8 A. Most of those were long-barrel weapons owned by citizens for

9 various reasons. A number of hunting weapons were also handed over.

10 There were carabines. Citizens believed that that was what they should

11 do.

12 Q. Were there any automatic weapons that people were not allowed to

13 keep?

14 A. Yes, there were a number of automatic weapons, rifles. According

15 to regulations, citizens were not allowed to keep those.

16 Q. Once you had taken members of the 4th Detachment to the line in

17 those areas, during that night, did you issue any orders regarding

18 insignia?

19 A. We were supposed to take care of the safety and security of all

20 our members. So from our superior commander, we received orders that we

21 should in some way mark off our own members, give them distinctive marks,

22 on the 17th, in the evening, because during the night there was supposed

23 to be a changeover of shift. And this would be done in order to avoid

24 clashes with police members who were patrolling the town. We decided to

25 make our members wear white armbands, which they would wear on the left or

1 right shoulder strap, or on their sleeve.

2 Q. Can you please tell us whether all members of the 4th Detachment

3 were wearing JNA uniforms, or were there also members of the 4th

4 Detachment who were not wearing JNA uniforms?

5 A. Precisely because a significant, considerable number of members of

6 the 4th Detachment had not signed for regular uniforms, they would go to

7 their shift wearing their civilian clothes and carrying military weapons.

8 That's exactly why there was a likelihood of an incident taking place, and

9 that was precisely why we decided to give our own members distinctive

10 marks to wear.

11 Q. People in civilian clothes, members of the 4th Detachment, where

12 were they placed, this band?

13 A. They wear this band, this armband, on their upper left arm.

14 Q. What occurred the next day, on the 18th of April, 1992? Did the

15 command take any steps regarding the command post and so on?

16 A. We at the command assessed the situation and came to the

17 conclusion that in view of what was happening, it was no longer safe for

18 the command to remain at the Sit building, which was a prefab building.

19 So a simple shell, a simple mortar shell, could destroy the building and

20 cause a tragedy or, rather, casualties among the members of the command.

21 We took a number of steps to move the command of the 4th Detachment to a

22 different location. We found a building that we believed was suitable.

23 It was a very solid building and it had a reliable shelter. This was a

24 building belonging to a Serb named Dusanovic, Jovo.

25 Q. Was this building in a part of town usually referred to as Sljivak

1 [phoen]?

2 A. Yes, precisely. The distance between the original command post

3 and the new one is between three and four hundred metres.

4 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pisarevic, before you move on. I

5 just want to clarify one thing with Mr. Antic. Just before we had our

6 break, Mr. Antic mentioned, on page 31, line 7, and I'll quote. He said:

7 "We took all measures to collect weapons from citizens who illegally

8 possessed them." And now after the break -- he's obviously talked in more

9 detail about weapons, but I don't seem to now see any reference to the

10 adjective "illegal." So my question, for clarification, is: Was it only

11 illegally possessed weapons that the 4th Detachment was ordered to collect

12 from citizens in Samac?

13 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.

14 Q. Mr. Antic, you understood the question?

15 A. The precise wording of the order was to collect illegally

16 possessed weapons, illegally possessed weapons. However, there were a

17 number of citizens who were in legal possession of weapons but still

18 decided to turn it over. We did not refuse to collect such weapons.

19 Q. When you say "legally possessed," what exactly does that mean,

20 according to the regulations?

21 A. Legal or lawful possession of a weapon is only in such cases where

22 the secretariat of the interior has issued a special approval or permit.

23 This is usually about short-barreled weapons, meaning a handgun or hunting

24 weapons.

25 Q. As you were the chief of the SUP, can you please clarify to the

1 Trial Chamber: Did the secretariat of the interior in any way have the

2 authority to issue permits for the possession of automatic military

3 weapons? Was that possible at all?

4 A. According to the law governing the work of the secretariat of the

5 interior, no such permit could be issued, military weapons. The

6 secretariat certainly did not have the authority to authorise possession

7 of automatic military weapons, and citizens were not allowed to keep

8 those.

9 Q. In practical terms, does that mean that every person who owned

10 automatic military weapons owned these weapons illegally or unlawfully,

11 with the exception of members of the JNA?

12 A. Yes, precisely.

13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

14 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. You, as commander, on the 18th, did you have any contact with the

16 Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality of Samac? Did you entertain any

17 kind of contact, and with whom, basically, on that particular day and over

18 the following days?

19 A. As commander of the 4th Detachment, in those days I had no contact

20 with the Crisis Staff, nor did the Crisis Staff ever get in touch with

21 me. Throughout that period, my only contacts were with my superior

22 commander, the commander of the 17th Tactical Group, Lieutenant Colonel

23 Stevan Nikolic.

24 Q. Very well. If you can please tell us, if you can remember: Did

25 you ever hear about any announcement published by the Crisis Staff of

1 Samac municipality?

2 A. I heard about the announcement and about its contents over the

3 Bosanski Samac local radio station. This was an announcement by the

4 Crisis Staff that was published, I believe, on the 18th of April.

5 Q. When you heard the announcement, what was your conclusion?

6 A. The announcement was about the following: Every citizen was

7 supposed to comply with orders issued by the Crisis Staff.

8 Q. Very well. Thank you. What was the overall situation? What

9 information did you have as to what was going on in the town of Samac?

10 Were people being arrested and so on?

11 A. I did have quite a lot of information regarding the situation in

12 Samac, primarily regarding expropriation of property or misappropriation

13 of property belonging to citizens of Samac regarding citizens' vehicles

14 being seized, machines or property in. There were many cases of abuse and

15 maltreatment of citizens. In one word, the tensions were high. There

16 were also a number of cases where weapons had been taken from members of

17 the 4th Detachment, by my own unit. Some arrests were made later on.

18 They were arrested and they were taken away from the line.

19 Q. We'll get to that. Who carried out these arrests in the town of

20 Samac?

21 A. Arrests were carried out by members of the police.

22 Q. Are you aware of a single case of the members of the 4th

23 Detachment or members of the Yugoslav People's Army having arrested a

24 single person in the town of Samac?

25 A. I assert with full responsibility that not a single member of my

1 detachment took part in any incident whatsoever or could have any one of

2 my members arrested any citizens in Samac.

3 Q. What did you do when you found out that certain members of the 4th

4 Detachment had their weapons taken away from them and that they were

5 detained at the police station in Bosanski Samac?

6 A. We were -- we felt very bad about this, because we knew that

7 members of the police could not arrest soldiers of the Yugoslav People's

8 Army.

9 Q. Did you inform the commander of the 17th Tactical Group, Commander

10 Nikolic, about that?

11 A. Yes, especially along security lines, Mr. Zaric reported to his

12 superior about these cases.

13 Q. And were these members of the 4th Detachment finally released?

14 A. There were cases that they were released and there were cases when

15 they were detained further, to reasons that were inexplicable to us.

16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pisarevic. Just to clarify

17 something. Mr. Antic, you are saying here that some members of the 4th

18 Detachment were arrested and taken to the police station in Bosanski

19 Samac, but you said a little bit earlier, on page 38, lines 13 to 15, that

20 "there were a number of cases where weapons had been taken from members of

21 the 4th Detachment by my own unit." I'm uncertain as to what "by my own

22 unit" means or whether it's simply an error in translation. Do you think

23 you could clarify that, Mr. Pisarevic? Because by the way -- from the way

24 it reads right now, it sounds as though members of the 4th Detachment were

25 arresting other members of the 4th Detachment. Thank you.

1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. There was probably a

2 misinterpretation, because that's not the way the witness had put it at

3 all.

4 Q. I think you were talking about weapons being taken away from the

5 members of the 4th Detachment. So could you please use these adjectives

6 less -- I mean "my," "mine," et cetera, would you just say "members of the

7 4th Detachment" so that we can be clear.

8 A. Members of the police took away weapons, army weapons, from

9 members of the 4th Detachment, for which they had appropriate documents,

10 permits for carrying such army weapons.

11 Q. Some members of the 4th Detachment were detained; is that right?

12 A. Yes. Some members of the 4th Detachment were detained. So out of

13 a feeling of personal protest, I went to prison myself and took them out

14 personally, until I was told at one point in time that I could personally

15 lose my life due to that.

16 JUDGE LINDHOLM: If you permit me, I have another question about

17 the point which is a bit unclear to me. You said that -- or the witness

18 confirmed that arrests were carried out in the town of Samac, not only

19 referring to members of the 4th Detachment but arrests in general, and as

20 an answer to your question, the witness said, word by word -- it's on page

21 38, line 19: "Arrests were carried out by members of the police." What

22 do you exactly mean by those words "members of the police"? Who were

23 those carrying out those arrests?

24 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Did you understand the question put by the Honourable Judge?

1 A. Yes. Members of the police were persons wearing police uniforms.

2 So they were members of the organs of the interior.

3 Q. Please --

4 JUDGE LINDHOLM: If I may put a follow-up question. So when you

5 are talking about members of the police, those are members of the police

6 already in that position before the outbreak of the hostilities, or are

7 they -- do you mean people taking on police uniforms after what happened

8 during the night between the 16th and 17th?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A number of members of the police

10 were from the peacetime period, and another number of police members - I

11 don't know how many - were engaged in the police after these events.

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Was this a new police, in essence? And whose was it?

14 A. That is the police that was the organ of the civilian authorities.

15 Q. Who was the chief of that police?

16 A. The chief of that police was Mr. Stevan Todorovic.

17 Q. When you spoke a short while ago about detentions, about

18 appropriation of property, et cetera, who was it that was doing this?

19 A. This was being done by volunteers from Serbia, for the most part,

20 but also by members of the police.

21 Q. To the best of your knowledge, under whose command were these

22 volunteers from Serbia?

23 A. To the best of our knowledge, the volunteers from Serbia were

24 under the leadership of the civilian authorities.

25 Q. Who was personally and directly their superior?

1 A. The organ of the civilian authorities that led or, rather, carried

2 out authority was the civilian authority of the municipality of Samac.

3 Q. So that was the organ. But who was the person commanding these

4 persons? Were they within the police or were they within the Yugoslav

5 People's Army or were they within some third formation, if any?

6 A. These volunteers were not under any command of the army. They had

7 nothing to do with the army. They were supposed to be, supposed to be,

8 under the leadership and control of the authorities of the interior, and

9 the chief of the interior was Stevan Todorovic.

10 JUDGE WILLIAMS: So, in fact, that maybe answers the question, but

11 just to make sure: Mr. Antic, you were saying that these volunteers from

12 Serbia were under the leadership of the civilian authorities. And if I

13 understand you now correctly, you're saying the civilian authorities were

14 in the form of Mr. Todorovic. Is that correct? Civilian -- by "civilian

15 authorities," are you talking about the police authorities or are you

16 talking about other civilian authorities in Bosanski Samac? I think it's

17 an important point. We need to get it clearly what you actually mean.

18 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. You have heard the question put by Judge Williams. Please tell us

20 whether, for you, the police is the civilian authority that you've been

21 referring to. When you say "the civilian authority," are you referring to

22 the police?

23 A. According to all regulations, the police is the organ of civilian

24 authorities.

25 Q. Thank you. So when you say this was under the command of the

1 civilian authorities, you mean that it was under the command of the

2 police; right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Since you said a while ago that the situation was very tense and

5 very complex, what did you, as the commander of the 4th Detachment, and

6 what did the command of the 4th Detachment do, and did you, in a way,

7 address the citizens of Bosanski Samac? Did you address them by way of a

8 proclamation or something?

9 A. In view of the developments in Samac, in view of all these events

10 that I have been speaking about, the command of the 4th Detachment had a

11 totally negative attitude. We thought that this was impermissible, and

12 therefore, in the command of the 4th Detachment, we decided to address the

13 citizens, asking them to join us, as many of them as they could, not to be

14 deceived by various provocations, and simply to make it possible to

15 resolve certain situations in a positive sense.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please put before

18 the witness D21/4 ter.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, while that's being done, I

20 raise this issue with you: The witness has just said that "the view of

21 the 4th Detachment was that all of these events were impermissible." Now,

22 you might like to know what he's referring to. Is he referring to arrests

23 of the 4th Detachment only, arrests generally, the political events, if

24 you want to call them that, that occurred on the night of the 16th or

25 17th? What did the 4th Detachment think was impermissible? A little

1 precision in that might be useful to you in order for you to understand

2 this witness's answer.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sure that the witness has heard what the

4 Prosecutor has said, so he can go ahead and explain.

5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Antic, could you please answer.

7 A. When I use the term "impermissible," I mean that the 4th

8 Detachment was against any arrests, arrests of soldiers, members of the

9 4th Detachment, and also against arrests of civilians, against lootings,

10 against the appropriation of other people's property, and against

11 everything that infringed upon human dignity.

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe that -- I can see that it's a map, but

14 this is definitely not what Mr. Pisarevic was intending to use.

15 If I may approach the registrar just for one brief second.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

17 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] D28/4 ter.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic.

19 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Please, Mr. Antic, would you take a look at this document. Are

21 you familiar with this document? If so, how come, and what do you know

22 about this document?

23 A. This document is the pride of the 4th Detachment. On the 19th of

24 April, via radio, we addressed the citizens of Samac and we put the

25 contents of this document to them.

1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please put the document

2 on the ELMO so that the accused in the courtroom can see this.

3 Q. Is this a document of the command of the 4th Detachment of the

4 Yugoslav People's Army, whose commander you were?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who drew up this announcement? Who wrote this announcement by

7 which you addressed the citizens of Bosanski Samac?

8 A. This document reflects the mood that was prevalent at the command

9 of the 4th Detachment. The whole command took part in this. Mr. Zaric

10 was in charge of the style and the wording of the document, and I approved

11 it.

12 Q. Had you not approved this document, this document would not have

13 been published?

14 A. No, by no means.

15 Q. Can you please read who this document is addressed to.

16 A. Citizens of Bosanski Samac, Muslims, Serbs, Croats, Yugoslavs, and

17 others.

18 Q. Very well. Thank you. Muslims, Serbs, Croats. We know who they

19 are. Why is there mention of Yugoslavs following the names of these three

20 ethnic groups?

21 A. Well, the ethnic make-up of the 4th Detachment included mainly

22 citizens of Yugoslav conviction, that is, they were members of one of

23 these three ethnic groups, but they considered Yugoslavia as their home

24 and homeland.

25 Q. What about these others?

1 A. Yes, precisely. It is a well-known fact that in addition to those

2 mentioned so far, there were also Albanians, ethnic Albanians, Roma

3 people, as well as members of other ethnic groups.

4 Q. Thank you. You certainly know that this announcement was

5 published or broadcast in the media and the Bosanski Samac radio station.

6 A. Yes, indeed. I gave approval for this announcement to be read out

7 publicly over the Bosanski Samac radio station so that everyone gets a

8 chance to learn about it.

9 Q. This announcement reflects the attitude of the command of the 4th

10 Detachment concerning everything that was going on in Bosanski Samac?

11 A. Yes. This announcement reflects the mood of the command of the

12 4th Detachment and all its members. We were convinced, however, that it

13 also reflected the views of the vast majority of other citizens who were

14 not members of the 4th Detachment but who accepted the 4th Detachment as

15 such.

16 Q. I can see that this announcement is a call to equality, peace,

17 freedom, and equal rights. Were these elements upon which you based your

18 attitude, the JNA and the 4th Detachment, in relation to the different

19 ethnic groups in Yugoslavia?

20 A. It was precisely on these elements that the 4th Detachment was

21 based. The very structure, the very make-up of the 4th Detachment, also

22 reflects this.

23 Q. I see here that you condemned nationalists on all sides, and the

24 nationalistic policies. Was that also a faithful reflection of the views

25 of the 4th Detachment?

1 A. Yes. What the 4th Detachment believed is that any divisions among

2 citizens along religious or ethnic lines were inadmissible for the 4th

3 Detachment.

4 Q. I've just remembered another question which I wish to ask you.

5 What was the attitude of the parties throughout 1991 and 1992, the SDS,

6 the HDZ, the SDA, towards members of the 4th Detachment and the command of

7 the 4th Detachment? How did they view the very existence of the 4th

8 Detachment of the JNA?

9 A. The command of the 4th Detachment was forced to defend its own

10 legitimacy all the time, again and again. We were under attack from all

11 the different national parties, the SDA and the HDZ, for the reason that

12 Muslims and Croats were members of the detachment. And the SDS attacked

13 us because we were a mixed detachment, including all the different ethnic

14 groups.

15 Q. Which means that you did not enjoy the support of any of the

16 nationalist parties, then?

17 A. Yes, that's precise. None of the nationalist [as interpreted]

18 parties liked us.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Objection for the transcript and for the

20 translation. This witness said "national parties," and we heard -- and we

21 have in the transcript, we have another word, "nationalist." So it's just

22 a correction to the interpretation. Because the witness said "national

23 parties," not "nationalist." So ...

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic can correct that with the witness.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Page 47, all should be redacted. Thank you.

1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Did you say that those were the views of the national parties or

3 nationalistic parties?

4 A. I said national parties.

5 Q. Any other corrections to be made? The question which I asked was

6 incorrectly reflected in the transcript. I said towards the end of 1991

7 and in 1992, what was their attitude or their view? You spoke about

8 1992.

9 A. Yes. I spoke about 1992, as far as the establishment of the 4th

10 Detachment is concerned.

11 Q. Very well. Thank you.

12 The members of the command - I will no longer be needing this

13 document, thank you - what were the consequences for members of the

14 command after this document was published in the media and over the Samac

15 radio?

16 A. After this announcement by the 4th Detachment was published, and

17 after what had gone on before that, very difficult times followed for the

18 command of the 4th Detachment.

19 Q. What happened to the members of the command of the 4th Detachment?

20 A. After the announcement was published, my friends let me know that

21 one of the volunteers was looking for me about town, one of the volunteers

22 from Serbia, known as Lugar. His real name was Slobodan Miljkovic.

23 Q. What did you do then?

24 A. The thing struck me as strange, but I was not surprised, in view

25 of my views and attitudes that were well known, in view of the way things

1 had developed. I made a decision, on my own, to speak the next day - I

2 think it was a Tuesday, the 21st or the 22nd - to the commander of the

3 police station and to ask what the whole thing was about and whether I

4 could count on his protection.

5 Q. Could you please tell us who the commander was of the police

6 station. And did you actually go to see the commander, and what happened

7 there?

8 A. The commander of the police - his office was at the department

9 store - when I told him about this, there was very soon a phone call. He

10 merely said "yes." In the meantime, he told me that he could offer no

11 protection, and then Slobodan Miljkovic, in a very energetic manner,

12 entered his office. That was the first time I met him, and the first

13 thing he did, he hit me on the face. He broke my temple bone. He

14 insulted me. He maltreated me. He called me a communist. He said:

15 You're the commander of a communist detachment. We'll make sure you

16 remember us. And so on and so forth.

17 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pisarevic. The witness didn't

18 actually answer your question as to who the commander of the police was.

19 I mean, I think we know, but I think we need the witness to answer that

20 directly.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The police commander was Savo

22 Cancarevic.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel's microphone please be turned

24 on.

25 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Can you tell us what happened after that?

2 A. I was badly beaten and I was disarmed. I was put into a passenger

3 vehicle, escorted by three volunteers. They took me to a place I didn't

4 know. We reached a forest eventually, known as Arandzicka. Lugar, who

5 was driving, pulled over. He pulled down the window, and a man appeared

6 through the window into the car. He was wearing a police cap. I

7 recognised Stevan Todorovic. He told me: Oh, it's you.

8 After that, they exchanged some whispered remarks and then we

9 continued our journey.

10 Q. Where did they take you?

11 A. They took me to the village of Obudovac. They told me that this

12 was a prison. They locked me up in some sort of a toilet and left me

13 there.

14 Q. How long did you stay there locked up like that in the toilet?

15 A. I stayed there for a day, and then a messenger came and said that

16 they would take me back to Samac. When I returned to Samac, I immediately

17 went to the command. I informed the command what had happened to me. I

18 informed the command about what had happened to me, but not only to me,

19 also Mr. Zaric [Realtime transcript read in error "Todorovic"] told about

20 his own experience at the police station, something he suffered on the

21 hands of another volunteer. He told us --

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: One correction for the transcript. Also Mr. Zaric

23 told about his own experience. Here it says "Mr. Todorovic," on page 50,

24 line 16.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It will be corrected. Because we heard the

1 name Zaric in the interpretation.

2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Can you proceed, please? What did Mr. Zaric tell you?

4 A. At the command, Mr. Zaric spoke about his own experience, that he

5 was being threatened, that a gun had been put into his mouth. Naturally,

6 everyone at the command was taken aback by this sort of behaviour, the way

7 members of the command were being treated. So naturally, we informed our

8 superior commander about that.

9 Q. Let us just clarify this. Did Mr. Zaric tell you about his own

10 experience before you had the incident at the police station?

11 A. As I had already spent a day at the prison in Obudovac, Mr. Zaric

12 told me at the command, he told me and he told all the other members of

13 the command.

14 Q. Very well. Who took you back from Obudovac?

15 A. A volunteer from Serbia took me back. He drove me back to Samac.

16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pisarevic. Mr. Antic didn't

17 actually answer your question as to when Mr. Zaric told Mr. Antic about

18 the experience with the gun in the mouth and so on. Was it before what

19 occurred to Mr. Antic had taken place or was it subsequent thereto.

20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. You heard all this, Mr. Antic, and my question. Can you please

22 answer that question. Were you informed by Mr. Zaric about his own

23 experience prior to your own experience at the police station?

24 A. I believe I personally heard this at the command.

25 Q. Was that before your own experience? We are not doubting the fact

1 that you heard this at the command, but was that before you had your own

2 experience at the police station or after that?

3 THE INTERPRETER: May counsel please be asked to speak into the

4 microphone, for the sake of the interpreters.

5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. If you can remember.

7 A. I'm sorry. I can't remember. Essentially, what I told you is

8 what happened.

9 Q. What did you do then? What steps did you take after you informed

10 the commander of the 17th Tactical Group?

11 A. Naturally, as a human being, and as commander, I could not accept

12 that. That was why I left, or rather, I told the command, when we were

13 informing each other, that I couldn't accept that, that I couldn't bear

14 that, and that most probably I would resign as commander of the 4th

15 Detachment.

16 Q. What did members of the command tell you then?

17 A. In addition to being very sad about it, they had a hard time

18 accepting it. They pleaded with me to stay in my position as the

19 commander of the 4th Detachment.

20 Q. So what did you do then?

21 A. Despite all, I couldn't take the humiliation. I went to the

22 command of the 17th Tactical Group the next day. I told the commander

23 about everything that had happened and I resigned.

24 Q. What did the commander do then, after he heard your story and your

25 reasons? Did he try to convince you to stay?

1 A. Yes. The commander of the 17th Tactical Group tried to persuade

2 me to stay, tried to convince me to continue in carrying out the tasks and

3 aims of the 4th Detachment, but I remained adamant.

4 Q. So what was his final decision?

5 A. He accepted my irrevocable resignation and he passed an order

6 appointing my deputy, Jovo Savic, as commander.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'm not objecting. Could

8 we get a date, if possible, on this resignation.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic.

10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Could you please give us the date when you stopped being commander

12 of the 4th Detachment and when this duty was taken over by Captain Jovo

13 Savic.

14 A. I think this was the 23rd of April.

15 Q. What did you do after that? Where were you assigned? To which

16 unit? And what tasks were you given?

17 A. Of course, as an officer, I put myself at the disposal of the

18 command of the 4th Detachment. As I was an expert in defence lines, I was

19 given the task to secure the line that was taken on the embankments on the

20 Bosna and Sava rivers, or rather, to place concrete bunkers there.

21 Q. Could you please clarify this a bit. Where did you place these

22 bunkers? Who worked on the placement of these bunkers? And generally

23 speaking, on carrying out this task.

24 A. The 4th Detachment wanted very much to make this line safe for its

25 members who were guarding that line, and that is why they decided to

1 establish such facilities from the bridge on the Sava, along the right

2 bank of the Sava River, to the mouth of the Bosna River, and along the

3 embankment of the -- along the Bosna River. So as I was carrying out this

4 engineering work, I made about 60 bunkers. Can I proceed?

5 In order to carry out this work, I got appropriate mechanical

6 equipment and an appropriate labour force. As far as mechanical equipment

7 is concerned, I got two diggers. A Serb worked on one of these, because

8 before the war, he had had diggers in his own company. As for the other

9 digger, I can give you the name of the other person who operated that.

10 This other digger operators name was Bogdanovic Predrag [as interpreted].

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear the counsel

12 Pisarevic.

13 A. As for the other digger, a Croat was operating it, Tomislav

14 Nenadic. I think that is his name. He was an ethnic Croat.

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: Just one correction. I believe that I heard the

16 name of the previous one, Goranovic Predrag, and here it says Bogdanovic

17 Predrag. It's on page 54, line 6.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel can --

19 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Counsel can correct that and --

21 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

22 JUDGE MUMBA: And Mr. Pisarevic, remember to wait for the -- yes.

23 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Would you just pause for a second. What was the name of the

25 person who operated the digger?

1 A. The name of the person who operated the digger was Predrag

2 Goranovic.

3 Q. What about the other person?

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear Mr. Pisarevic

5 again.

6 A. The other person was Nenadic. I think his first name is Tomislav.

7 He is an ethnic Croat.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, make sure that you're speaking close

9 to your microphone. Twice the interpreters haven't been able to hear what

10 you're asking the witness. And also avoid overlapping the witness.

11 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly. I'll do my best.

12 Q. You said that this other person was Tomislav Nenadic, an ethnic

13 Croat. Did he work with this construction machinery before as well?

14 A. Yes. The man who operated that machine before the war, in his own

15 company, worked with that very same machine.

16 Q. The third person?

17 A. The third person who worked with this equipment, actually, with

18 the fork equipment, was a Muslim. His last name was Dumonjic. And before

19 the war, in his company, Mebos, he operated the same kind of equipment.

20 Q. Try to describe this briefly to us. What did this -- how was the

21 bunker made? What did other people do? Just do it nice and slowly,

22 please.

23 A. These are concrete bunkers that fall within the establishment, and

24 they were built in a construction company that made such goods even

25 previously, that is to say, such construction equipment. The forklift

1 brought these elements in, or rather, four concrete elements were required

2 to build a bunker.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, we don't need these details. I think

4 the interest for this Trial Chamber is to find out the labour force, who

5 were the labour force, where did they come from, in view of the work

6 obligations issues.

7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. In addition to the equipment, there were also a labour force?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How many were there? What were they by ethnic background, and how

11 did they come to carry out these duties?

12 A. The labour force for carrying out this work was assigned by the

13 secretariat for National Defence, and through Dzemal Kapetanovic, their

14 own employee, they assigned a maximum of up to ten people, who were

15 involved in this technical work. The work that they did consisted of the

16 following: They would keep holding these elements until the forklift

17 placed them in an appropriate position.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, just on that issue that the

19 President of the Chamber just raised.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Regarding the concrete. Of course the method of

22 construction and so on is not important. That's not the significant

23 thing. But there has been some evidence in the case regarding who made

24 the concrete pieces for use later in the bunkers, and I don't know, but

25 the Chamber may be interested in that, or it might be of significance to

1 Mr. Pisarevic. I don't know. But I just raise that for your attention.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That can be -- the witness can give evidence

3 on that.

4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. The witness said that these

5 concrete elements were made by a company that was involved in the building

6 of these concrete elements before the war too. Of course, before the war

7 crimes they were not used for bunkers, but they worked on concrete --

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot follow this, because

9 both speakers are speaking at the same time.

10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. When this kind of work is carried out, what was the degree of

12 security provided for you personally and for the people who were engaged

13 in this work?

14 A. Of course, since the work was being carried out at the defence

15 line itself, there was the danger of wounding, either by small arms on the

16 other side of the Sava River or from a mortar shell. I personally, as I

17 supervised these operations, I made sure that nothing happened to any one

18 of these men. As soon as I would hear a shell flying through the air,

19 they would have to go into the shelter and I would be the last person to

20 go in.

21 Q. Did it ever happen that anyone, while these operations were being

22 carried out, the ones that you supervised, did anyone ever get wounded or

23 was anyone ever hurt in any way?

24 A. These operations went on for about a month, and throughout this

25 time, not a single worker sustained even a minor scratch.

1 Q. Can you just tell us what the ethnic background was of the other

2 auxiliary workers, so to speak, in addition to the digger operators, et

3 cetera.

4 A. They were Muslims.

5 Q. Thank you. After that, what did you do? You said that this went

6 on for a month.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When you finished this work, what did you do then, in the units of

9 the army of Republika Srpska, which was already established by then?

10 A. When this work was completed, successfully so, there was a high

11 degree of security and safety for all the persons involved. The command

12 sent me to assist the military medical units at the line in the village of

13 Grebnice, where I drove a van, where I got the wounded out of the

14 trenches, took them by ambulance, by this van, to the village of Donja

15 Slatina, where the medical centre was.

16 Q. Thank you. Do you know about anything related to the crime that

17 was committed in the village of Crkvina? When did this happen? Who did

18 it?

19 A. Yes, I know about these events, about the unheard of crime that

20 was committed in the village of Crkvina. I was there where the facilities

21 were being built, and we heard about it, because people were talking about

22 this at the line. They were saying that this crime had been committed.

23 And it was said that this was carried out by the same person who had

24 maltreated me, and that is Slobodan Miljkovic.

25 Q. Thank you. Do you know when the army of Republika Srpska was

1 established?

2 A. Yes. The army of Republika Srpska was established on the 12th of

3 May, 1992.

4 Q. Do you know when the Yugoslav People's Army left the territory of

5 the 17th Tactical Group, or rather, the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

6 A. I know that the Yugoslav People's Army left the territory of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 19th of May.

8 Q. What kind of military units were established then in the territory

9 of the municipality of Bosanski Samac?

10 A. In view of the situation, that is, that the army of Republika

11 Srpska was being established and that the Yugoslav People's Army was

12 departing, a reorganisation was carried out, a reorganisation of units.

13 Instead of the 17th Tactical Group, the 2nd Posavina Brigade was

14 established, and the 4th Detachment was reorganised, and it grew into the

15 5th Battalion.

16 Q. Do you know at which localities in the town of Samac there were

17 persons who were detained?

18 A. I know the persons were detained in the police station, at the

19 Territorial Defence headquarters, at the gym of the high school, where I

20 had worked for a long time, and in the remains of the elementary school,

21 because the elementary school had burned down but the gym was left, so

22 they were kept at the gym.

23 Q. Thank you. Do you know who was appointed commander of the 2nd

24 Posavina Infantry Brigade?

25 A. Colonel Mico Djurdjevic was appointed commander of the 2nd

1 Posavina Infantry Brigade.

2 Q. Do you know how long he stayed in that position?

3 A. He stayed in that position for a very short time. I'm not

4 familiar with the reasons why he stayed in the position of commander for

5 only seven days.

6 Q. Do you know who replaced him as the commander of the 2nd Posavina

7 Infantry Brigade?

8 A. I think he was replaced as commander of the 2nd Posavina Brigade

9 by Dragan Djordjevic, also known as Crni.

10 Q. Do you know who was appointed chief of the brigade?

11 A. Another volunteer was appointed to that position, a volunteer from

12 Serbia. His name was Srecko Radovanovic, nicknamed Debeli.

13 Q. They were both members of the group that had arrived --

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. They were, to all intents and purposes, your commanders too at

16 that time, weren't they?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. After your involvement with the medical unit, what was your next

19 assignment? What else did you do in the army?

20 A. After that duty, which lasted for about two months, out of my own

21 personal revolt, which was my natural reaction to what was going on, I

22 left and went to stand guard at night in a bunker, as a common soldier.

23 Q. How long did you stay there?

24 A. For about eight months.

25 Q. When peace was finally brokered in Bosnia-Herzegovina, which

1 position did you hold?

2 A. Some people understood that I was not to be kept in the trenches,

3 being an officer, and I was transferred to another unit for anti-tank

4 defence, anti-armour defence, in the village of Obudovac I was appointed

5 assistant commander for morale.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 A. And that was the end of the war.

8 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this concludes my

9 examination-in-chief. Thank you.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours, can I just very briefly raise a

12 matter of procedure with you?

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Before Mr. Krgovic starts his cross-examination?

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: You recall that yesterday we had the issue arise of

17 you wanting to know the Prosecution's attitude towards the 92 bis

18 statement of Mr. Ramusovic, and -- would Your Honours just bear with me?

19 [Prosecution counsel confer]

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: And we indicated -- you indicated that you wanted

22 to hear from us today. Do you want to do that --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Since you're already on your feet, can you just go

24 ahead.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, Mr. Weiner is going to do it, and that's the

1 only reason I ask, so that he can --

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Let him do it. Let's have it done.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Let's have it done. Very well. Thank you.

4 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, the statement appears to satisfy the 92

5 bis requirements. We only have two objections to it. In paragraph 17,

6 the last sentence of the paragraph: "This generally disturbed all

7 citizens because nothing like this had ever happened in Samac." This is

8 his personal opinion. There's no indication that he took any sort of poll

9 or went out and polled citizens or there was any vote. It's strictly his

10 opinion and should be stricken.

11 And also in paragraph 24, there's some discussion of a family

12 feud. It's our argument -- that's the last two sentences, or -- pretty

13 much, pretty much most of the paragraph concerns a family feud. It's not

14 relevant.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: The whole of paragraph 24?

16 MR. WEINER: No. Just after - let's see - after the second

17 sentence, it's all family feud. I don't feel it's relevant.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you just spell out the beginning of the words of

19 the part which you object to?

20 MR. WEINER: "My brothers, except Izet, also visited me. Izet

21 never came to see me. He was an SDA member when I was wounded."

22 JUDGE MUMBA: The rest of it.

23 MR. WEINER: That's all. That portion there. It's not relevant,

24 in our opinion.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

1 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: We shall take our break for 20 minutes.

3 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

4 --- Upon commencing at 12.54 p.m.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic. Oh, sorry. It was

6 Mr. Krgovic.

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Krgovic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Antic. My name is Dragan

9 Krgovic. I'm speaking here on behalf of Mr. Tadic's defence. I will ask

10 you a number of questions related to the answers you gave Mr. Pisarevic.

11 You answered Mr. Pisarevic's questions about the make-up of the

12 4th Detachment, and you said that Miroslav Tadic was assistant commander

13 of the 4th Detachment for logistics; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In your answers to Mr. Pisarevic, you have described the way in

16 which the 4th Detachment was armed, how weapons were signed for, and how

17 equipment was signed for. In view of your explanations, I'm inclined to

18 conclude that Miroslav Tadic, as assistant commander for logistics and in

19 view of the situation that you had no warehouse and no proper logistics,

20 his logistics unit did not actually take part in this arming, did it?

21 A. Well, yes. Mr. Miroslav Tadic, as assistant commander for

22 logistics, in terms of arming the 4th Detachment, as this was done from

23 the warehouse of the 17th Tactical Group, Miroslav Tadic had no specific

24 duties in relation to that.

25 Q. Mr. Antic, you have described your movements during the night

1 between the 16th and 17th of April. You told Mr. Pisarevic that in the

2 morning of the 17th, you went back to the command of the 4th Detachment

3 from Pelagicevo. Did you say that?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Do you remember Miroslav Tadic reporting to the command, asking

6 whether he needed to be involved and whether he should come on the same

7 day? Do you remember that you told him that there was no need for him to

8 be involved for the time being and that he would be called upon when

9 necessary?

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic, don't give the answers to the witness.

11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am merely stating

12 the view of my client, what he said during his examination.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but you're asking this witness. Let him say

14 what happened or what he knows.

15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, indeed.

16 Q. Can you tell us, please, Mr. Antic: What happened when you came

17 back on the 17th?

18 A. When I ordered the duty officer at the command of the 4th

19 Detachment to inform all members of the command of the 4th Detachment

20 about that, when we reached the command of the 4th Detachment, which was

21 at the Sit company building, we were all there together, members of the

22 command, but I remember that Mr. Tadic, assistant commander for logistics,

23 reported and asked whether his presence was required. Given that the

24 operational section of the command had to be there, had to be present, I

25 told him that he was not needed at that moment, that his presence was not

1 required.

2 Q. Thank you very much. Mr. Antic, the next day, did you issue any

3 order to Mr. Tadic in addition to the one you spoke about on controlling

4 the collection of weapons? Did you issue Mr. Tadic any other orders?

5 A. On the next day, the 18th of April, the assistant commander for

6 logistics had some specific tasks in addition to the tasks that he had

7 already been given concerning collection of weapons, he was given another

8 specific task, namely, for the command post to be moved to a different

9 location, which means that equipment had to be taken care of and moved to

10 the new location so the command post could move there and continue

11 operating. Furthermore, I ordered him to set up a kitchen for the 4th

12 Detachment, which he did, as ordered.

13 Q. Mr. Antic, where was this kitchen set up?

14 A. The kitchen was set up on the premises of the Tekstilac company,

15 which is adjacent to the Sit company. Prior to these events, there had

16 been a kitchen there, a big one, for the employees of that company.

17 Q. Mr. Antic, was that the only kitchen set up by Mr. Miroslav Tadic

18 that you had ordered?

19 A. Yes, that was the only order that I gave him in terms of setting

20 up kitchens.

21 Q. Mr. Antic, can you tell me, please: The same day, on the 23rd of

22 April, when you ceased to be commander of the 4th Detachment, do you know

23 that Miroslav Tadic also left the 4th Detachment and assumed another

24 position?

25 A. Yes. He did take up a new position, a different position, but the

1 only thing I'm not sure about is whether it was on the very same day.

2 Q. Mr. Antic, thank you very much.

3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

4 questions.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic?

6 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, just one -- before

7 Mr. Pantelic starts. There's a slight ambiguity that may be important.

8 The last question asked by Mr. Krgovic -- I'm sorry. I withdraw that

9 objection.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honours. I do apologise. I

12 just have to, for a second, to organise my papers. Thank you for your

13 understanding, Your Honours

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Pantelic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Antic. My name is Pantelic.

16 I defend Mr. Blagoje Simic.

17 Can you please tell me: You know Dr. Blagoje Simic, don't you?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. How long have you known him for, as you were a teacher? Do you

20 know him from your days at school?

21 A. No, not from that period, but I met him when he came to work as a

22 doctor in Samac.

23 Q. Mr. Antic, how do you see Mr. Blagoje Simic as a man, as a human

24 being? You did live in the same town, after all. Just very briefly, your

25 personal view.

1 A. It was only very seldom that I was in a position to talk to him

2 personally. I do know that he worked as a physician. In a small town

3 like Samac, all doctors, all physicians, are some sort of authority.

4 Q. Was he a riotous person or an indecent person? You were after all

5 chief of police in Samac at that time. What would you say about his

6 behaviour as a citizen in his spare time? I'm not talking about him as a

7 professional now?

8 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: The witness has said that he doesn't know him. He

11 came to -- he knew him -- when he came to live -- work in the town as a

12 doctor, saw him in a position to talk to him personally. So we've got

13 no -- he can't provide an answer to that particular question, I would have

14 thought.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. With regard to his character.

16 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours --

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Unless the question is directed to some sort of

18 public persona of Dr. Blagoje Simic. Then I would have no objection. But

19 it's got to be clearer, and the way it stands at the moment, that aspect

20 is not very clear.

21 MR. PANTELIC: I mean, let me explain the way why I would like to

22 have personal knowledge of this witness of behave of Dr. Blagoje Simic.

23 Because he lived in the same town. It's not New York city, it's not

24 Tokyo, not Paris. He says he doesn't know him as a pupil, as a student,

25 but when he came as a physician in the town he made some contacts. Just

1 briefly I would like to explore this matter, because this witness is a

2 former chief of police in Samac.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well, Mr. Pantelic.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Antic let's neglect this debate with the

6 Prosecution. In his free time, what do you know about Blagoje Simic? Did

7 he go to pubs? Did he spend nights on the tiles? Was he a loud person?

8 A. No. Mr. Blagoje Simic is an intellectual. I was not informed

9 that he displayed any kind of indecent or riotous behaviour.

10 Q. Thank you very much. You were a person with a lot of experience,

11 teaching experience, but also a man who held certain posts and offices.

12 In the former system you were chief of police in Samac. You had completed

13 the military school for reserve officers. You attended a number of

14 military trainings and exercises in peacetime. You will, I hope, agree

15 with me if I say that you're a person with an above-average knowledge of

16 military theory and practice, but also as concerns police work. Do you

17 agree with me on that?

18 A. It is out of modesty only that I would call my knowledge and my

19 skills average merely.

20 Q. I fully understand that, but you did organise a number of military

21 drills prior to 1992, during peacetime, in Samac?

22 A. No, I did not personally organise those military drills. It was

23 done by the command of the TO staff. I was an officer at that command.

24 My last duty at the TO staff was assistant commander of the municipal

25 staff for morale.

1 Q. Very well, Mr. Antic. We'll take your modesty into account. I

2 think that's beyond suspicion. But your knowledge was still above that of

3 an average soldier, wasn't it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You certainly knew more than an average policeman, because you

6 were, after all, chief of police, weren't you?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. You will agree with me - I'm a layperson myself, but please

9 correct me if I'm wrong - in the army, there is a doctrine that's still

10 applied, even nowadays, a principle, I think Mr. Pisarevic asked you about

11 that, the principle, namely, of subordination.

12 A. Yes. In all the armies of the world there are some principles

13 which are accepted all over the place. That's singleness of command and

14 subordination. There's a man who issues orders, but then up the chain of

15 command, he is subordinated and responsible to his superior officer.

16 Q. As concerns the police forces, was there a hierarchy there too?

17 First comes the municipal police station, and who is above them? Can you

18 just tell us very briefly, please.

19 A. I can explain this from the way it was organised in peacetime.

20 The secretariat of the interior was responsible for its work up the chain

21 of command to the public security station, established at regional level,

22 and then down the same chain of command, further upwards, to the

23 republican Ministry of the Interior.

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: Just one small correction. It's a matter of

25 accuracy of the transcript. On page 69, line 18. The witness was

1 referring to the public security centre established at regional level.

2 The station is in the municipality. Then there is the regional centre.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think the witness can correct that.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.

5 Q. [Interpretation] I understood you perfectly, your explanation.

6 But for the sake of the transcript, we need to deal with this. So we're

7 talking about the local police station. So who was above that?

8 A. The public security station at regional level. More specifically

9 in the case of Samac, it was based in Doboj. And then the republican

10 secretariat of the interior at republic level.

11 Q. My apologies, Mr. Antic. There is no luck with the transcript

12 today. Can you tell us: What is the lowest level in this chain of

13 command of the police? What is the lowest level?

14 A. The municipal secretary of the interior.

15 Q. What comes next above the municipal secretariat?

16 A. Public security centre at regional level.

17 Q. In the case of Samac municipality, who was the superior?

18 A. The Doboj public security centre. It was based in Doboj.

19 Q. And then above the Doboj regional centre?

20 A. Above the Doboj regional centre, there was the republican body of

21 the interior.

22 Q. Thank you very much. I hope we've got this clarified now. The

23 first time around you gave an accurate answer, but -- [In English] I see

24 my learned friend on his feet.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

1 MR. DI FAZIO: My problem, just as far as the full clarity is

2 concerned, I assume that the witness is talking of this chain of command

3 that existed pre --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: In peacetime.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry. I missed that. In that case, I'm sorry

6 for my interjection.

7 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. That's beyond dispute. That was in peacetime. Can you please

9 tell me, in terms of this hierarchy or chain of command: What was it like

10 during the war, in the Republika Srpska? What was the hierarchy like, in

11 terms of the municipal station and then the region, the level above? Were

12 there any differences? Tell us, please, if you know.

13 A. During the war, instead of Doboj, as public security centre, I

14 think Samac was subordinated to the centre in Bijeljina.

15 Q. And then above Bijeljina, who was above Bijeljina?

16 A. The republican level.

17 Q. Very well, Mr. Antic. The 17th Tactical Group had about five

18 detachments, didn't it?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. Can you please tell the Court: How many military conscripts all

21 together were under the command of the 17th Tactical Group, if you can

22 remember, please? These five detachments, how many people did they

23 include?

24 A. This should be calculated according to the establishment, how

25 many. The 4th Detachment numbered about 450 men. Therefore, the

1 remaining four detachments, about as many, I suppose. So there you have

2 the overall number of conscripts.

3 Q. As part of the 17th Tactical Group, was there also an armoured

4 battalion or an armoured brigade?

5 A. Yes, but I'm not particularly familiar with the structure of that

6 unit. I'm an infantryman myself.

7 Q. Can you please tell us what kind of weapons the 17th Tactical

8 Group had. Just an example. I'm not talking about numbers. Can you

9 please tell us generally about the weapons at the disposal of the 17th

10 Tactical Group. Did they have any Zoljas, hand-held rocket launchers?

11 Did they have any tanks, did they have automatic weapons? I mean, you are

12 a high-ranking officer.

13 A. Yes, the 17th Tactical Group had all those weapons that you refer

14 to.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: In fact, Mr. Pantelic, we've got this evidence

16 already from one of the earlier witnesses.

17 MR. PANTELIC: If it's not in dispute, no problem.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: It's already on record with our evidence.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. I agree. Thank you. Thank you.

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Antic, can you tell me, please: Do you have

21 any personal information on the atmosphere prior to mid-April 1992? I'm

22 talking about February and March, in the villages surrounding Samac, in

23 Prud and so on and so forth. Specifically, what I want to know is: Do

24 you have any information concerning certain military structures of Croats

25 in the surroundings of Samac, and did you perhaps personally witness

1 people arming themselves? Were people digging bunkers or anything along

2 these lines? Your personal experience, please. Tell us briefly.

3 A. According to our intelligence information, we did have information

4 that, in the village of Prud, there was a unit of the Croatian Defence

5 Council.

6 Q. Can you please tell me, Mr. Antic: What was your information,

7 your knowledge, as commander of the 4th Detachment, concerning the

8 movements by enemy groups in the surroundings of Samac? What I want to

9 know specifically: Prior to mid-April 1992, several weeks earlier, did

10 you have any knowledge or information concerning a possible attack on

11 Samac? If so, please tell us the source. And if you knew about the

12 attack, who, what were you told the attack have come from? Please, only

13 your personal information.

14 A. When I received the order of the commander to position the 4th

15 Detachment at the defence line within my area of responsibility, my

16 personal assumption was, and the first thought that came to my mind,

17 was --

18 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: No objection to this line of questioning, as long

21 as the witness is not talking about his assumptions, but his direct

22 knowledge. It's important for you to know that, and important for him to

23 speak of what he knows, what he heard, what he saw and observed, not his

24 own conclusions or assumptions or opinions.

25 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Mr. Antic, let us perhaps subdivide this subject into a few.

2 During March and the first half of April, do you know about the formation

3 of some kind of Crisis Staff of the HDZ and the SDA in Samac? Did you

4 have any information about that?

5 A. I have no knowledge about any such thing.

6 Q. Tell me: What is your personal knowledge regarding possible

7 attacks against Samac before the 16th of April, 1992? Do you have any

8 knowledge about that?

9 A. I did not have any knowledge. But one of my men, just before the

10 conflicts between the 16th and the 17th, told me personally that there was

11 an enormous concentration of the military in the area of Slavonski Samac,

12 because he had passed there and seen it for himself.

13 Q. Could you please be so kind as to tell me the name of the man who

14 told you that, and also when he told you that.

15 A. His name is Diko Simic, and he told me about seven days before

16 these events.

17 Q. So around the 10th of April?

18 A. Possibly.

19 Q. At the level of the 4th Detachment, at the level of the command of

20 the 4th Detachment, did you discuss that particular piece of information

21 that major troops were being built up in the area of Slavonski Samac?

22 A. No, we didn't discuss that.

23 Q. Did you personally perhaps discuss this at the level of the 17th

24 Tactical Group?

25 A. Every meeting with our Superior Command that we had, we always

1 discussed these events and we always presented information about

2 everything. So I conveyed this piece of information that I had to my

3 commander.

4 Q. That was Lieutenant Colonel Stevan Nikolic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And at the level of the command of the 17th Tactical Group, this

7 information was discussed, I assume.

8 A. I'm not aware of that.

9 Q. All right. Tell me, please, Mr. Antic -- let me just have a look.

10 Mr. Antic, did you have any personal knowledge about the plebiscite of the

11 Serb people in Bosnia-Herzegovina and the topic of this plebiscite? Did

12 you personally take part in it?

13 A. I am aware of the plebiscite. It had to do with stating our views

14 on whether we wanted to live in Yugoslavia. I personally did take part in

15 this plebiscite.

16 Q. Do you happen to know from the newspapers, or on the basis of your

17 personal knowledge, what the outcome was?

18 A. A vast percentage voted in favour of a life together.

19 Q. In January and February 1992, did you personally hear that the

20 Republika Srpska was established, or rather, at that time the republic of

21 the Serb people in Bosnia-Herzegovina? Did you know about that?

22 A. Yes. That was a well-known thing.

23 Q. Did you know that sometime around then, the constitution of

24 Republika Srpska had been passed?

25 A. It is logical. When a decision is reached, then it should be

1 translated into law.

2 Q. Since you said that the army of Republika Srpska was established

3 on the 12th of May, 1992, do you happen to know when the ministries of

4 Republika Srpska were established? I'm specifically interested in the

5 Ministry of the Interior, when it was established. If you know.

6 A. I don't know about those dates.

7 Q. Tell me, Mr. Antic: You spoke about a meeting on the 16th of

8 April that was attended by your assistant commander for intelligence and

9 security matters, Mr. Zaric. This was in the local commune in town; is

10 that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you remember having said that to my colleague Mr. Pisarevic by

13 way of an answer?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you know that in the town of Samac, that is to say, in the

16 local commune in town - I'm not referring to the villages now - that a

17 Crisis Staff had been established by the inhabitants there, the members of

18 various political parties, in order to ease tensions? Did you know about

19 that? Specifically, what meeting had he come from? Was that a meeting of

20 the Crisis Staff of the local commune in town?

21 A. No. This was no Crisis Staff meeting. This was a meeting of the

22 representatives of political parties only. They presented some of their

23 own requests, and the radical request related to the 4th Detachment. Our

24 representative did not have the authority to make such a decision, or

25 could he have made such a decision.

1 Q. All right. But if Mr. Zaric says that such a Crisis Staff did

2 exist within the ranks of the Croats and Muslims, you would have no

3 doubt -- no reason to doubt that, because he's a man who is well informed?

4 A. No, I'd have no reason to doubt that, but this is what I know.

5 Q. All right. Tell me -- oh, yes, yes. Oh, the 4th Detachment.

6 Yes, that's what we're discussing. Let me just find this. Yes.

7 Within the 4th Detachment, tell me, Mr. Antic: How many companies

8 were there? So lower-level units, right? How many were there?

9 A. Four companies.

10 Q. I'm sorry. I'm a layman, so I don't know whether we are talking

11 about unit leader or a unit commander.

12 A. Unit leader.

13 Q. All right. The leader of the 1st company, was that Milan

14 Celikovic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And the leader of the 4th company, was that Milan Vujic?

17 A. No.

18 Q. So who was it?

19 A. Milan Vujic was --

20 Q. Oh, leave aside Milan Vujic. Do you know who the leader was?

21 A. Rajko Dragic.

22 Q. And who headed the 2nd Company?

23 A. Dzemal Jasenica.

24 Q. And who headed the 3rd Company?

25 A. Ramusovic, and I think his first name was Naser.

1 Q. All right. And who was commander of the Scout Squad within your

2 4th Detachment?

3 A. By its very establishment, the 4th Detachment did not have a scout

4 squad.

5 Q. All right. And tell me: What was the position held by Mr. Ilija

6 Ceranic -- Cerianovic [phoen], sorry. Ilija Cerianovic?

7 A. In the 4th Detachment, Ilija Cerianovic held no position.

8 Q. Was he a member of the 4th Detachment? If you can't remember,

9 just say "I can't remember."

10 A. Well, I have to go through 450 men now.

11 Q. Don't worry. Never mind. What about Dimitrije Ivanovski? Was he

12 in the 4th Detachment?

13 A. Yes, he was.

14 Q. He's an ethnic Macedonian, isn't he?

15 A. Yes, he is.

16 Q. So this is this broad ethnic composition that you were explaining.

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. Fadil Topcagic was in the 4th Detachment, wasn't he?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did he have a particular position?

21 A. No.

22 Q. What about Mr. Ivanovski?

23 A. He was by the telephone at the command.

24 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I believe that there are some matters

25 to -- my colleagues would like to address the Chamber, and I was informed

1 by Madam Registrar that it's about our time to stop the examination today.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, with the witness, yes.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the witness be led out of the courtroom, please.

5 [The witness stands down]

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: Maybe I will address first and then Mr. Lukic.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: It has to do with Mr. Zaric and our trials on

10 Monday. Mr. Zaric has a scheduled medical examination, but not with the

11 problem that we have recently seen he does. But it has something to do

12 with his optometrical examination, and it is scheduled for Monday at

13 11.00. That's the only term that this could be scheduled. And if he

14 misses this examination, the next would be within the next three months.

15 So he really doesn't feel that he should miss this examination. I

16 discussed this issue with him and he's ready to waive his right of being

17 present on Monday at the morning session until he completes his

18 examination, and he was just asking for assistance that he should be

19 brought immediately after this examination is completed in the courtroom.

20 That's the only issue that we would like to raise.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. I will ask the registry assistant to see

22 that the relevant units are informed, that he will be brought to the

23 courtroom immediately after his examination.

24 Yes, Mr. Lukic.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have received the

1 Prosecutor's response related to the last two statements, the 92 bis

2 statements, D185/3 ID and 284/3 [as interpreted]. I would appreciate it

3 if I could give a response too. Since the weekend is coming up --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we just correct the second document? It's not

5 284, is it not 184/3?

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Yes. Can we

7 move into private session, please, because what the Prosecutor also said

8 is confidential.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we'll move into private session.

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5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

6 to be reconvened on Monday, the 17th day of

7 March 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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