1 Tuesday, 5th October, 1999

2 [Rule 77 Hearing]

3 [Open session]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.37 p.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Will the Registrar call the

7 case, please?

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your

9 Honours. Case number IT-95-9-R77.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, we were to

11 continue this afternoon with the cross-examination of

12 Witness Agnes.

13 Are we in private session?

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9 [Open session]

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. We'd

11 call Mirsad Sahanic.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the

14 solemn declaration.

15 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

17 truth.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 WITNESS: MIRSAD SAHANIC

21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

23 Q. Mr. Sahanic, I understand, sir, that you were

24 born in Zvornik, in the Republic of Bosnia and

25 Herzegovina; is that correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you tell the Court when you were born?

3 A. On the 25th of June, 1970.

4 Q. I see. Can you also tell us what your ethnic

5 background would be, sir?

6 A. A Muslim.

7 Q. Now, before the war began in the former

8 Yugoslavia, sir, were you employed?

9 A. I was.

10 Q. What was your occupation?

11 A. I was a policeman.

12 Q. Where were you stationed as a policeman?

13 A. Immediately before the war, I was working in

14 Bosanski Samac.

15 Q. Yes. How long had you been employed as a

16 policeman prior to the war in 1992?

17 A. For about four months.

18 Q. While you were stationed in Bosanski Samac,

19 did you meet a young woman by the name of Jasna?

20 A. I did.

21 Q. How long did you know her before the war?

22 A. Well, roughly for about two months before the

23 war began.

24 Q. Just so that the Court is clear about what

25 we're talking about, when the war began, can you give

1 us the date that you're referring to as to when the war

2 began? What date was that?

3 A. I am thinking of the date when Bosanski Samac

4 was attacked; that is, when the war began in Bosanski

5 Samac.

6 Q. Yes. Do you happen to remember what date in

7 April of 1992 that may have been?

8 A. I'm not quite sure. I think it was the 16th

9 or 17th of April. It was a Saturday morning or,

10 rather, the night between the Friday and Saturday.

11 Q. We'll return to that, but before we do, I'm

12 going to ask -- there is a folded white piece of paper

13 to the left of the desk in front of you.

14 A. I see it.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Mr. Usher, could you show the

16 witness the name written on that piece of paper?

17 Q. Do you recognise the name written on that

18 piece of paper?

19 A. I do.

20 Q. Yes. From now on, when I refer to a person

21 by the name of Mr. Agnes, that is the person to whom I

22 am referring, the person written on the piece of

23 paper. Do you understand that, sir? You're nodding

24 your head, indicating yes.

25 A. I understand.

1 Q. Hopefully, sir, in your replies to any of my

2 questions, I would ask that you refer to the person by

3 the name of Mr. Agnes and not by the name written on

4 that piece of paper. Do you understand that?

5 A. I do.

6 Q. Prior to the war beginning on the 16th or the

7 17th of April, 1992, did you become familiar with a

8 person to whom I will refer as Mr. Agnes?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. How long had you known Mr. Agnes prior to the

11 war?

12 A. Well, for about two and a half months. I'm

13 not quite sure, but I think it was that long.

14 Q. Perhaps now, sir, in your own words, would

15 you share with us your relationship with Mr. Agnes and

16 with the woman I referred to as Jasna? Can you just

17 tell us, in your own words, how well you knew those

18 people and under what circumstances?

19 A. Well, I met Mr. Agnes, as he had a room in

20 the hotel in Bosanski Samac where I was staying while I

21 was employed, and that is how we met. We were together

22 several times.

23 As for Jasna, I met her a little later in a

24 cafe in Bosanski Samac.

25 Q. Do you recall how you met Jasna in a cafe in

1 Bosanski Samac?

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 Q. Mr. Agnes was there at the same time, was he?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. RYNEVELD: Excuse me one moment, please.

9 Q. Now, I must remind you again, sir, that when

10 we speak about Mr. Agnes, we refer to him by that name,

11 all right? That's important.

12 So you met Jasna --

13 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes,

14 Mr. Ryneveld, the witness has actually given another

15 name, and I think it will disappear from the

16 transcript.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.

18 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] In

19 connection with this hotel, the witness tells us,

20 Mr. Sahanic, that he was working that night. Was he

21 living in Bosanski Samac and spent the night in the

22 hotel? Because he said he met him at the hotel. Could

23 he tell us how did it come about that he was in the

24 hotel when he was already working in Bosanski Samac?

25 A. I was working in Bosanski Samac, but that is

1 where we were staying. We were accommodated in the

2 hotel.

3 MR. RYNEVELD:

4 Q. Just so that I'm clear, while you were a

5 policeman, you were staying at the hotel in Bosanski

6 Samac; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. While you were staying as a guest of that

9 hotel, you occasionally ran into the person known as

10 Mr. Agnes; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. All right. Now, on the night when you met

13 Jasna, were you working? Were you on duty that

14 evening?

15 A. I think I was.

16 Q. Your recollection is that Mr. Agnes was

17 present that night when you first met Jasna; is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did that first meeting result in a further

21 relationship with Jasna? Did you get to know her

22 better over time?

23 A. Well, one could say we did, yes.

24 Q. Perhaps you would share with us what

25 relationship, if any, developed after your first

1 meeting with Jasna.

2 A. Well, from our first meeting, as she was

3 living in Bosanski Samac, we would frequently see each

4 other, and I think the relationship became stronger,

5 closer.

6 Q. How close a relationship -- I don't mean to

7 pry, sir, but how close a relationship did you develop

8 with Jasna, and up to the point of the outbreak of the

9 war?

10 A. I don't know what you mean.

11 Q. Did you become friends?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How close friends did you become?

14 A. We were close, so close that we didn't really

15 see each other every day but almost every day, and we

16 went out.

17 Q. Would it be fair to ask if you had become

18 boyfriend and girlfriend?

19 A. Yes, one could call it that.

20 Q. Now, sir, you've mentioned earlier in your

21 testimony that -- when I asked you about when the war

22 started, you indicated that something happened the

23 night of the 16th or 17th. Did something happen to you

24 that particular night or morning of the 17th of April,

25 1992?

1 A. On the first day after the beginning of the

2 war in Bosanski Samac, I was captured.

3 Q. When you say "captured," exactly what do you

4 mean, sir?

5 A. It means that on that day, I think it was in

6 the afternoon, I was taken into custody in the street

7 by paramilitary units and taken to the police station

8 in Bosanski Samac.

9 Q. These paramilitary units, could you identify

10 what kind of units these were? Were they wearing

11 uniforms of any kind?

12 A. Well, to judge by their speech, they were not

13 from those parts. I think they were not from

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina. To judge by their accent, I would

15 say that they came from Serbia. At that moment, I

16 didn't notice any insignia, except that they were

17 wearing very worn uniforms and they had black woollen

18 caps on their heads.

19 Q. Where exactly were you when you were, as you

20 put it, captured?

21 A. At the moment I was captured, I was right

22 next to the hotel.

23 Q. Were you alone or was someone with you?

24 A. I was with Mr. Agnes at that moment.

25 Q. Do you remember approximately what time of

1 day it was that you were captured?

2 A. It was in the afternoon, maybe around 2.00 or

3 3.00, or maybe even 4.00 in the afternoon.

4 Q. Do you remember how you were dressed; i.e.,

5 were you in uniform or in civilian clothing?

6 A. I was in civilian clothing.

7 Q. The two of you, Mr. Agnes and yourself, were

8 right beside the hotel; is that correct?

9 A. Yes. At that moment, we were right beside

10 the hotel.

11 Q. Can you tell us what you had been doing up

12 until the point in time that you were captured? I

13 don't mean you to go back that far, but how was it that

14 you happened to be outside the hotel with Mr. Agnes at

15 the moment you were captured? Where had you been?

16 What had you been doing?

17 A. We were outside, and Mr. Agnes and I wanted

18 to seek shelter near the banks of the River Sava, to

19 wait for nightfall, and then to get out of there

20 somehow, but something happened.

21 Q. Why were you looking for shelter? Shelter

22 from what?

23 A. We were afraid of these people who arrived in

24 Bosanski Samac, captured the police station. We heard

25 shooting from the bridge, so we thought it would be

1 best to lie low and wait for the right moment to get

2 out.

3 Q. Prior to that afternoon -- that is, the

4 afternoon of the 17th of April -- when had you last

5 seen Jasna?

6 A. It was just before that, before the attack on

7 Samac, which means during the night, the night of the

8 attack.

9 Q. Under what circumstances had you been with

10 Jasna, and how did you leave her?

11 A. I think that evening we were in a discotheque

12 that was close to the hotel. I don't know exactly what

13 time it was when I saw her home, and that was the last

14 time I saw her.

15 Q. When you saw her home, had there been an

16 outbreak of fighting yet?

17 A. No. I returned to the hotel after that and

18 fell asleep. I don't know for how long I slept. I was

19 awakened by banging on my room's door by the

20 receptionist who was working at the hotel there.

21 Q. Just so that I'm clear in my mind, sir, so I

22 understand what you've said, you were out with Jasna

23 for the evening, you saw her home, you went to the

24 hotel, went to sleep, and were awakened by the

25 receptionist. Is that correct?

1 A. Yes, that is correct.

2 Q. Do you know approximately what time of day it

3 would have been that you were awakened by the

4 receptionist?

5 A. I don't know exactly, but it could have been

6 about 2.00 a.m., something like that.

7 Q. Why were you awakened by the receptionist?

8 A. She woke me up because she knew I was working

9 in the police station there, and probably for security

10 reasons she woke me up so that I would be awake. I

11 think she did it for security reasons.

12 Q. At this point, was it clear that the war had

13 started?

14 A. I think it was clear by then, because that is

15 how it started in most other cities. There were many

16 towns in which the war started in the same way, so that

17 it was clear to the people in this town, too, that the

18 war had begun.

19 Q. Sir, you weren't originally from Bosanski

20 Samac; is that correct?

21 A. No, I was not.

22 Q. Do you know why it was that you were

23 stationed at Bosanski Samac as part of your police

24 duties?

25 A. Well, I worked in Bosanski Samac within the

1 frameworks of a sort of subcommand. That is to say, it

2 was before the beginning of the war in Bosanski Samac.

3 There were problems there with regard to the crossing

4 of a bridge there across the Sava River, and I was sent

5 there. It was a sort of special unit to provide

6 security for the bridge so as to avoid any conflict.

7 Q. That was one of your duties as a policeman

8 when you were sent to Bosanski Samac; that is, to guard

9 the bridge?

10 A. Well, one of the main tasks was that one,

11 although we had other duties as well, the kind of work

12 that people in my profession do.

13 Q. Yes. Now, Mr. Sahanic, after the

14 receptionist awakened you, what happened next?

15 A. Immediately after she woke me up, I heard

16 strong shooting from the direction of the bridge and,

17 later on, from the direction of the police station in

18 Bosanski Samac.

19 Q. What actions, if any, did you take?

20 A. I went downstairs to the reception desk, and

21 there were many other guests there who had been

22 spending the night in the hotel. I suggested that it

23 would be best for us to take shelter in a room that was

24 not turned towards the police station and bridge,

25 because I thought that there might be some sort of

1 bombing or shelling and that we would be safer, the

2 people there would be safer, those people who had been

3 in the hotel during the night.

4 Q. Among these people did you see Mr. Agnes?

5 A. Mr. Agnes was present as well, yes.

6 Q. Without going into a great deal of detail

7 about what you did in the hours after being awakened, I

8 take it, though, that you and Mr. Agnes spent some time

9 together after you assembled -- after being awakened by

10 the receptionist.

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. Between that time and the time that you were

13 captured together outside the hotel, did you ever see

14 Jasna again?

15 A. I don't think I did.

16 Q. I'm going to skip over some of the details of

17 what happened, sir, but you told us that you were

18 captured; and by "captured", do you mean actually

19 physically arrested?

20 A. Well, if by "physically arrested" you mean

21 when someone comes in front of you with a rifle and

22 orders you to put your hands up and run to the police

23 station, then it could be said to be physically

24 arrested or as you yourself termed a moment ago.

25 Q. All right. So that was the way in which you

1 were told to go to the police station, the way you've

2 just described, at rifle point?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. Was Mr. Agnes with you at that time?

5 A. Well, yes, he was. We were together. Both

6 of us had to put our hands up and go to the police

7 station.

8 Q. Now, I don't want to go through this in

9 detail, sir, but I'm going to ask, where were you

10 taken? Perhaps you could trace it for us very

11 quickly. You went from being captured to a location

12 and, I understand, to a number of other locations over

13 a period of time. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. Could you, in a summary form, tell us where

16 you went and where you eventually ended up?

17 A. Well, while I was made to run towards the

18 police station, they put me into one of the cells that

19 were there for provisional detention, and I spent that

20 night there, and I think already the next day that I

21 was transferred to another premises across the road

22 from the police station. This was a smaller building

23 that was called the Territorial Defence building. I

24 think that I spent some seven to ten days there. I'm

25 not quite certain exactly how long. But afterwards I

1 was transferred to Brcko by them, to the barracks

2 there, the army barracks at Brcko. I spent only a few

3 days there. After that, I was once again transferred

4 to Bijeljina, from Bijeljina once again, after some

5 five or six days -- I'm not quite sure how long -- they

6 took us to Ugljevik, and at Ugljevik I spent some five

7 or six days. I was returned to Bijeljina. Several

8 days later, back to Bosanski Samac, where I stayed

9 until the 5th of November.

10 Q. Thank you, sir. During all of the time that

11 you were transferred from place to place, as you

12 outlined for us, do you know where Mr. Agnes was?

13 A. Mr. Agnes spent the whole time, except the

14 several days that I spent in Ugljevik. He was in the

15 group with me, in fact.

16 Q. When you indicated you went from place to

17 place to place and ended up back at Bosanski Samac,

18 Mr. Agnes was with you for most of that time?

19 A. Yes, that's right.

20 Q. When you returned to Bosanski Samac, where

21 were you detained?

22 A. As soon as I returned, we were detained for

23 one night in a hall next to the large gym/sports hall

24 of the elementary school, and then we were transferred

25 to the gym of the elementary school. That's what it

1 was called, the gym hall.

2 Q. The elementary school or the primary school,

3 is that the building you're referring to?

4 A. Yes, that's right. I mean the sports and gym

5 hall attached to the elementary school.

6 Q. Yes. Now, sir, you have outlined to us that

7 you were captured on the 17th of April, and you've

8 outlined again for us where you went for a number of

9 days. Is it safe to assume, from what you've told us,

10 that it's now May of 1992 when you ended up at the

11 elementary or primary school?

12 A. I think it was May.

13 Q. At the elementary school, this gymnasium, was

14 Mr. Agnes detained with you?

15 A. Yes, Mr. Agnes was also detained with me on

16 the premises of the gymnasium of the elementary school.

17 Q. While you were detained with him, while you

18 were jointly prisoners there, did your relationship

19 with Mr. Agnes continue? I mean did you become friends

20 over that period of time?

21 A. Well, immediately before the war broke out in

22 Bosanski Samac, we were friends, and I think that

23 everything we experienced in our joint detention made

24 us even stronger friends perhaps.

25 Q. I do not at this time intend to ask you any

1 details about your detention. I'm not going to get

2 into that. But while you were detained with Mr. Agnes

3 at the elementary school after May of 1992, did you

4 have occasion to see the person I've referred to as

5 Jasna?

6 A. On one occasion, I did. She came there; I

7 think she brought some sandwiches or something to eat.

8 So I saw her once while I was in the gym hall of the

9 elementary school.

10 Q. She brought you some sandwiches, did you say?

11 A. I think it was a sandwich or something else.

12 Anyway, something to eat.

13 Q. I said I wouldn't get into any of the

14 details, but I have to ask something in order to put

15 this into perspective. Was it customary for people to

16 bring you food from outside the detention camp?

17 A. Well, it was not permitted, but if somebody

18 before the war, of the people living in Samac, had a

19 good relationship with the guards, then they were able

20 to bring in some food.

21 Q. Are you able to tell us, generally speaking,

22 what the ethnic background of the guards was? Do you

23 know whether they were Bosnians or Croats or Serbs?

24 Are you able to say?

25 A. Apart from one Serb, all the rest were

1 Muslims or Croats; in detention, that is.

2 Q. That is the guards.

3 A. I'm thinking of the detainees.

4 Q. Yes, I appreciate that from your answer. I'm

5 sorry that I didn't make myself clear. Do you know the

6 ethnic background of the guards? If you don't know,

7 just say you don't know, but I wondered whether you

8 knew.

9 A. Well, I think most of them were of Serb

10 ethnicity.

11 Q. Did you know what Jasna's ethnicity was?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Would you tell us?

14 A. I think she was a Catholic, a Croat.

15 Q. Was Mr. Agnes around when Jasna brought you

16 the sandwich?

17 A. I don't remember whether he was around when

18 she brought the sandwich, but he was on the same

19 premises where I was.

20 Q. Would he have been in a position to see or to

21 know if she had brought you the sandwich?

22 A. I'm not certain whether he was in a position

23 to see, but later on, he was in a position to know. I

24 told him.

25 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] I think,

1 Mr. Ryneveld, that the witness could surely go a little

2 quicker through your questions.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Because some

5 of the things, surely, can be done more expeditiously

6 to economise with the time of the Trial Chamber,

7 because I think to go into such detail is not so

8 helpful. So I think that the examination should be

9 conducted in a way as to go directly to the facts.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Fine, Your Honour. I will

11 certainly expedite matters. I thought some of these

12 matters were of significance, but I have Your Honour's

13 point.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think in that regard,

15 Mr. Ryneveld, you should consider whether you could

16 lead in relation to matters that are not in dispute.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: I contemplated that, Your

18 Honour, but not having had an opportunity to determine

19 which of these issues is contentious and which are not,

20 I thought it would be best if I took the cautious route

21 and not exceed the bounds of leading evidence. I know

22 it's leading in chief, but I didn't know I could lead

23 in chief.

24 JUDGE HUNT: But surely it's a question of

25 whether they are relevant, not whether they are

1 contentious. It's very difficult to see what this has

2 to do with what we are investigating here.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. I have Your

4 Honour's point. I will move on and I will take heed to

5 your instructions.

6 Q. Mr. Sahanic, I understand, sir, that there

7 was a second occasion as well when you saw Jasna, is

8 that correct, while you were still detained with

9 Mr. Agnes?

10 A. Yes, that's right.

11 Q. I understand, sir, that in fact Jasna had

12 arranged for you and Mr. Agnes to leave the detention

13 centre and work for one of the guards; is that correct?

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. After that second incident, did you see Jasna

16 again, or was that the last time you saw her?

17 A. That was the last time.

18 Q. Sir, I also understand that you continued in

19 detention with Mr. Agnes until the 5th of November of

20 1992; is that correct?

21 A. Until the 5th of November, 1992, correct.

22 Q. At that time, sir, you were exchanged, as

23 they call it, and you got to leave the institution or

24 the detention camp; correct?

25 A. That's right.

1 Q. When you left, to your knowledge, Mr. Agnes

2 remained behind; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. Since leaving Mr. Agnes behind on the 5th of

5 November of 1992, have you seen him again?

6 A. No, I have not.

7 Q. Sir, after you were exchanged, I understand

8 that you went to Tuzla, where you dated other women and

9 you met and married your present wife; is that correct?

10 A. For a short space of time, I stayed near

11 Orasje, and then I went to Tuzla, yes, and I did see

12 other women, dated them, yes.

13 Q. You ultimately met and married your wife, is

14 that correct, your present wife?

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. Did you work as a policeman after being

17 exchanged?

18 A. After the exchange, until I went to Germany,

19 I worked as a policeman.

20 Q. You went to Germany in August of 1995; is

21 that correct?

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. I understand, sir, that you did not hear from

24 Mr. Agnes until -- well, for the next six years after

25 you last saw him; is that correct?

1 A. That's correct, yes.

2 Q. Now, in the autumn of 1998 -- I'm taking you

3 to Germany and it's now the autumn of 1998 -- did you

4 continue to have regular telephone conversations with

5 your mother, who lived in Tuzla?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. On one of those occasions, sir, I understand

8 that you went to a pay phone and telephoned your

9 mother; correct?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. At that time, in addition to your usual

12 discussions with your mother, she told you something

13 that was new and interesting to you; is that correct?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: I choose not to lead in this

16 area, if I may.

17 Q. Can you tell us what your mother told you

18 that is of interest to the Court today?

19 A. Well, she told me that a few days before I

20 called her up, in her house where she lives in Tuzla,

21 that a young man and a young girl came and that the man

22 introduced himself, although she forgot the name he

23 said, but he said he knew me. He said he had been

24 detained with me together in Bosanski Samac.

25 My mother invited them in for a cup of

1 coffee, as is customary. They went in, had a cup of

2 coffee. The young man and the young woman were

3 interested in knowing where I was. My mother said I

4 was in Germany, she showed them my pictures from the

5 photo album, and the young man asked for one of those

6 photographs, my photograph, which my mother gave him.

7 She even gave them my telephone number and address in

8 Germany because he said he'd like to hear me.

9 They left. The girl went towards the car

10 that was parked there, the car in which they had come,

11 and the young man stayed behind. He was busy putting

12 on his shoes, and when he went away, he told my mother,

13 "Well, let me tell you something. I want to disclose

14 a secret. The girl with me used to be Mirsad's

15 girlfriend in Bosanski Samac," and that was what that

16 meeting was about.

17 Q. So your mother told you this on the

18 telephone.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. At the time your mother told you this, had

21 you ever heard from Jasna since you last saw her when

22 you were detained?

23 A. No, I had no news from her.

24 Q. Now, after speaking to your mother

25 sometime -- oh, do you know exactly when it was you

1 spoke to your mother?

2 A. I can't be sure, but it could have been in

3 mid 1998.

4 Q. All right. Sometime after speaking to your

5 mother about that incident that you've just told us

6 about, did you get a call in the early morning hours

7 from Mr. Agnes?

8 A. You mean after the girl had been to see my

9 mother?

10 Q. Correct.

11 A. Yes, Mr. Agnes phoned me after my

12 conversation with my mother. It was sometime at the

13 end of 1998 or the beginning of 1999, perhaps even

14 February 1999. I'm not quite sure as regards the exact

15 date.

16 Q. You're not sure as to when these phone calls

17 happened; is that correct?

18 A. Well, I couldn't say for sure, couldn't give

19 you the exact month.

20 Q. Can you tell us a bit about the first

21 telephone call from Mr. Agnes? What was said by whom?

22 A. That night, Mr. Agnes phoned me up, late at

23 night -- it was sometime around 2.00 a.m. or 1.00 a.m.

24 -- and during the conversation, Mr. Agnes throughout

25 -- that is to say, I thought that Mr. Agnes blamed me

1 for the fact that he stayed on in detention, and he

2 thought that after I had been exchanged, I could have

3 possibly taken him out, got him out, and he said his

4 life was finished, that he was in a wheelchair, that he

5 wasn't able to move around. That whole conversation

6 boiled down to his accusations of me for not having

7 pulled him out of prison, and he thought that after I

8 had been exchanged, that I could have done that

9 perhaps.

10 Q. Was that the first time you heard from

11 Mr. Agnes after you had seen him last on the 5th of

12 November of 1992?

13 A. Yes, that was the first time.

14 Q. What was your reaction to getting a phone

15 call from him?

16 A. At the beginning, I was happy to hear from

17 him after so many years, but afterwards, it was rather

18 unpleasant. I was sorry that he was blaming me for not

19 pulling him out of prison. And he didn't realise what

20 the situation was like, because it was absolutely

21 impossible to pull anybody out of gaol, even if you did

22 have connections.

23 Q. That call was in the early morning hours; is

24 that correct?

25 A. Yes, that's right.

1 Q. You were awakened from a sleep by that call?

2 A. Yes, I was sleeping when the phone rang.

3 Q. How long did the phone conversation last,

4 approximately?

5 A. It lasted a long time, perhaps some 40

6 minutes even.

7 Q. Did you hear from Mr. Agnes again?

8 A. Yes, I did hear from him again, once more.

9 Q. Approximately how much later after that first

10 early morning phone call?

11 A. I'm not quite sure. Perhaps one or two

12 months after the first call.

13 Q. Can you tell us briefly what transpired

14 during that second telephone call from Mr. Agnes?

15 A. During the second phone call, the

16 conversation changed a little bit. Mr. Agnes did not

17 put so much blame on me for not getting him out any

18 longer, and we spoke about regular things. He asked me

19 how I was doing and, as I was married, he asked about

20 my children. So it touched more on regular things. It

21 was not a conversation in which he was accusing me of

22 not getting him out of prison, as was the case in the

23 first conversation.

24 Q. During your telephone conversation with

25 Mr. Agnes, was he the only person you spoke to in that

1 phone call?

2 A. During the second phone call, I first talked

3 to Mr. Agnes, and then he asked me, "Do you know who is

4 next to me?" I could assume, I thought it was Jasna,

5 and so I said so, and then I continued to talk to

6 Jasna.

7 Q. Was there a reason why you assumed that Jasna

8 was next to him?

9 A. I thought that it was him who had visited my

10 mother with Jasna, and so I assumed that she may have

11 been there with him.

12 Q. Did you subsequently find out whether or not

13 that was true?

14 A. Later on, I learned that it was not true.

15 Q. How did you find that out?

16 A. Jasna told me so during one of our

17 conversations. She said it was Mr. Agnes and she said

18 it was one of her friends, and she mentioned a name but

19 I did not remember the name.

20 Q. In any event, in your conversation with

21 Mr. Agnes, you, in response to this question, "Do you

22 know who's next to me?" you guessed it was Jasna and

23 you turned out to be correct; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What happened next?

1 A. The remainder of the conversation I spent

2 talking to Jasna.

3 Q. What was the conversation about?

4 A. We spoke for the first time then about some

5 regular things. I asked her what was new with her, and

6 she asked me what was new with me, how I lived and so

7 on. During this second conversation when Mr. Agnes

8 called, my conversation with Jasna was very brief.

9 Q. At the end of that conversation, was it clear

10 to you why she wanted to speak to you?

11 A. Well, I thought, the first time I talked to

12 her, that is, that after everything that we had before

13 the war, that she wanted to talk to me. And she said

14 it would be nice if I came to Bosnia so we could see

15 each other, and I thought at first that it was her wish

16 to see me again and to talk with me.

17 Q. Did she make it clear to you that she wanted

18 to see you again?

19 A. Not that clear, but in the course of the

20 subsequent conversations, the gist of all these

21 conversations was that she wanted me to come back to

22 Bosnia and to see me again.

23 Q. Now, you've referred to subsequent

24 conversations, so we'll go to those in just a moment.

25 How long did this conversation that was started by

1 Mr. Agnes, and the phone handed off to Jasna, how long

2 did that telephone conversation last?

3 A. I'm not sure. It could have been about half

4 an hour.

5 Q. Do you know where she was phoning from or

6 where Mr. Agnes was phoning from?

7 A. That I wouldn't know exactly, where they

8 called from.

9 Q. Now, did you hear from Jasna again?

10 A. After that conversation, I had perhaps

11 another four calls.

12 Q. All right. From whom?

13 A. [No audible response]

14 Q. Let me rephrase the question. You said that

15 she called you again on subsequent occasions; is that

16 correct? When was the next call; do you know?

17 A. The next conversation may have been two or

18 three weeks later, after the call when I talked both to

19 Mr. Agnes and to her.

20 Q. What was the conversation about?

21 A. Well, we talked about this and that. She

22 kept repeating, "When are you going to come, when am I

23 going to see you," and she said, "Well, you got married

24 and made promises to each other." But for the most

25 part, she wanted me to say firmly when I would come

1 back to Bosnia. I said that given the memories of my

2 last days in Samac, I wasn't sure that I wanted to go

3 back there any time soon, and she said that I shouldn't

4 worry about it, that she was in charge there. I don't

5 know what she meant about that, but she gave me firm

6 guarantees that I would be perfectly safe if I came

7 back there.

8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

9 Mr. Ryneveld, could we learn from the witness where

10 these phone calls were made, where he received those

11 phone calls?

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Certainly, Your Honour.

13 Q. Where were you when you got the phone calls?

14 A. I received those telephone calls on my mobile

15 telephone which I had at the time. Sometimes I was in

16 different locations. I may not have been home all the

17 time. I may have been in town. But they all came --

18 they were all made to my mobile phone when I was not at

19 home.

20 Q. Thank you. Did you give her your mobile

21 number?

22 A. During the conversation with Mr. Agnes and

23 Jasna, it was then that I gave them my mobile phone

24 number.

25 Q. Now, let me see if I understand, sir. You're

1 married and you have two children?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did your wife then know about Jasna?

4 A. She knew of my previous relationship with

5 her, but she did not know of the subsequent calls.

6 Q. Did you want Jasna phoning you at your home?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Is that why you gave your mobile number?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So how often would she phone you?

11 A. I'm not sure, but she may have called up to

12 twice a week. Then perhaps there would be a pause of

13 seven to ten days, and then there were again a couple

14 of calls a week and so on.

15 Q. And so on. And this went between what period

16 of time?

17 A. It may have lasted for over a month, perhaps

18 less than two months. I'm not so sure.

19 Q. What was the general theme of the phone

20 calls? What was it that Jasna wanted you to do, if

21 anything?

22 A. From what I could gather, she wanted -- she

23 became resigned to the fact that our relationship could

24 not go on because I was married and that perhaps we

25 should become more like friends, and she wanted to see

1 me. She always asked me to come, and to give her some

2 firm promise as to when I could come, and so on.

3 Q. When she called you, how long were these

4 phone calls, generally speaking? Were they short,

5 long, intermediate?

6 A. You could describe them as very long.

7 Q. Do you know the cost of telephone calls from

8 Bosanski Samac to Germany?

9 A. I don't know exactly how much it costs from

10 Bosanski Samac, but a minute of conversation from

11 Tuzla, which is very close to Samac, costs somewhere

12 between two and three German marks per minute.

13 Q. Did you ever comment to Jasna about the price

14 of the phone calls that she was spending on you?

15 A. On one occasion during these first few

16 conversations, when I saw that the conversation was

17 going on and on, I asked her who was going to pay for

18 this, that maybe we should hang up and she could call

19 again a few days later. She said that it wasn't

20 material, how long it took, when it concerned me. And

21 then I don't know whether she had money to pay this,

22 but obviously she was not particularly concerned, how

23 much she was going to pay for it and how long the

24 conversations were going to last.

25 Q. In the course of your conversations with

1 Jasna, did she tell you what she did for a living now?

2 A. She didn't tell me what she was doing

3 exactly. I did ask her, though, what she did, and she

4 was a bit secretive. She said that she was working,

5 that she travelled a lot, but she wouldn't tell me

6 specifically what exactly the nature of her job was.

7 Q. You told us earlier that when she was trying

8 to persuade you to come to Bosanski Samac, she had

9 indicated something about her being an important

10 person? Those are my words now, but perhaps you could

11 tell us what she said about that.

12 A. In that regard, during the conversation when

13 I said that I feared coming back to Samac to see her

14 again, she said that she was in charge there, that

15 nobody would touch me, that she had some people who

16 were important, who were in high positions, and I don't

17 know what she meant by that.

18 Q. Now, I'm going to back up to something that I

19 neglected to ask you a moment ago, and we'll come back

20 to this, but did you hear from Mr. Agnes again during

21 the course of these various telephone conversations

22 with Jasna?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you ever discuss Mr. Agnes with Jasna?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Can you tell us, sir, the discussions that

2 you had with Jasna about Mr. Agnes?

3 Perhaps I should -- first of all, did you

4 have any discussions with her about her getting any

5 identification from Mr. Agnes?

6 A. I'm not sure exactly what you meant by

7 "identification."

8 Q. All right. Perhaps you could explain to us

9 this way: During the course of her explaining to you

10 that she was an important person in Bosanski Samac, was

11 there any discussions about requests Mr. Agnes may have

12 made of her that she would assist in arranging?

13 A. When we spoke about Mr. Agnes, I asked her

14 what he did. She said that he would come for a few

15 days and then disappear again. And he mentioned a case

16 when he requested that she provide him with some

17 documents -- I think it was a personal identity card in

18 the police station -- and she said that he was a bit

19 upset that she couldn't provide it to him so fast, even

20 though she commented that he received it much faster

21 than was the regular procedure. Then we also talked

22 about some additional things.

23 Q. I'm going to back up again for a moment.

24 In these telephone conversations with Jasna,

25 you told us earlier that she told you, in a later call,

1 that she, in fact, had gone to visit your mother with a

2 friend and that it was not Mr. Agnes; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that is correct.

4 Q. Did she ever tell you how it was that she

5 knew where your mother lived?

6 A. She said that she was wandering about Tuzla

7 for two days, going from one police station to the

8 next, and even went to the police headquarters in

9 Tuzla, and she asked to be received by the chief of

10 police. I don't know if she succeeded in that, but she

11 received information, because previously I had worked

12 at that police station, and thus she was able to first

13 receive the information regarding the address and then

14 the phone number subsequently.

15 Q. So she went to various police stations to

16 track you down; is that correct? That's what she told

17 you?

18 A. Yes. In her own words, she said that she had

19 got the whole police force going in order to locate me.

20 Q. And, of course, since you worked for the

21 police, you had some records there about where your

22 mother lived. Is that how the information became

23 available?

24 A. Of course, there is information.

25 Q. Now, in your discussions with Jasna, where

1 she wanted you to meet with her in Bosanski Samac, did

2 you ever agree to go to Bosanski Samac, in particular?

3 A. I never told her a precise time because I

4 myself did not know. The situation is difficult for

5 the refugees to travel from Germany; some are lucky

6 enough to get a visa to travel, but some never do. I

7 said that perhaps I would come in August, but I never

8 considered that I really had to go there so fast and

9 meet her. I had contemplated going to Bosnia that fall

10 with the family, and I never told her exactly when. I

11 said August, September, and then she said, "Well, you

12 said August," and then another time, I would

13 say, "Maybe September, October."

14 Q. Now, just so that I'm clear, when were you

15 having these telephone conversations with Jasna? Was

16 it in 1998 or 1999 that you were talking to Jasna?

17 A. This was in 1999.

18 Q. So when you're talking about coming in the

19 fall of 1999, that would have been just last August, is

20 that what you're saying; last September, last August,

21 two, three months ago?

22 A. Yes. I apologise. I may have misspoken

23 about mentioning 1998. What I had in mind was to come

24 back to Bosnia in 1999, around this time.

25 Q. I see. These conversations with Jasna

1 happened until when? When was the last time you spoke

2 with Jasna on the telephone?

3 A. I'm not sure. It could have been May 1999.

4 Q. May 1999. All right. Had you discussed a

5 tentative meeting at some village near Bosanski Samac

6 at any point?

7 A. When I said that I feared coming back to

8 Bosanski Samac, she said that it didn't matter, that if

9 I didn't want to come there, that we could have met any

10 other place within the federation, Tuzla or some other

11 place, but the important thing was for me to come back

12 to Bosnia.

13 Q. Yes. Now, I'm going to back you up a little

14 bit. A couple of months after your second telephone

15 call from Mr. Agnes, okay, not the first call in the

16 middle night but the second call from Mr. Agnes,

17 sometime after that, after you had first spoken to

18 Jasna, did you get another call in the middle of the

19 night from an unknown person, not Mr. Agnes?

20 A. Well, yes, and it was also late. I don't

21 know what time, but let's say around midnight, I

22 received a call from a person. The conversation lasted

23 a very short time. When I picked up the phone, he

24 said, "Why aren't you calling Bosnia? You know who is

25 there." And while I sort of came to and sort of asked,

1 "Who is this?" he said, "Go back to sleep" and also

2 some swear words. So it was a very brief

3 conversation.

4 Q. You say there were some swear words. First

5 of all, let me break this up a little bit. Did you

6 know who the person was?

7 A. No. No, I could not recognise the voice.

8 Q. Was it male or female?

9 A. It was a male voice.

10 Q. Are you sure that it was not Mr. Agnes?

11 A. I'm 90 per cent certain it was not his

12 voice. My first impression when I heard the voice was

13 that it was not his.

14 Q. This person, whoever it was, woke you up in

15 the middle of the night.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Called you an insulting name.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And then said something about, "Why aren't

20 you calling Samac," words to that effect, is that

21 correct, "Do you know who you have there?"

22 A. I don't know if he said specifically, whether

23 he said, "Why don't you call Bosanski Samac?" I don't

24 recall whether he said "Samac" or "Bosnia," because I

25 was not fully awake. Then he said a few additional

1 insulting words, and then he said, "Go back to sleep."

2 Q. Did you understand why you were being called,

3 sir, as a result of that telephone call? Did you

4 understand why you were being phoned?

5 A. At first, I thought that Jasna perhaps

6 expected me to call her sometime and that she perhaps

7 was sitting somewhere, in some cafe with some friends,

8 and that she may have asked them to call me. So at

9 first, I thought that it was all her doing.

10 Q. Did you ever call Jasna?

11 A. You mean after that?

12 Q. Ever.

13 A. No, never.

14 Q. It was always her phoning you.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In mid May, did you get another call from

17 Jasna, mid May of 1999?

18 A. There were several additional conversations,

19 the last one of which was, I believe, in May.

20 Q. The very last telephone call you got from

21 Jasna, whenever that was in May, can you tell us what

22 that was about?

23 A. Well, we talked about all kinds of things,

24 but again, it all boiled down to my coming there, that

25 I would be safe there. The last time, I asked her what

1 she did, and believe that during that very last

2 conversation, she mentioned she was looking for a piece

3 of clothing. There was nothing in Samac that she

4 liked, so she was talking about going to Tuzla because

5 there were more boutiques there where she could find

6 that kind of stuff.

7 Again, the conversation centred on her trying

8 to have me commit to a particular time when I would

9 come there. Then she also said that an occasion could

10 be created for us to see each other somewhere else and

11 that this could be perhaps -- and she mentioned the end

12 of August, early September, that she was waiting for

13 someone to tell her about some, I believe she called

14 it, business trip to the Netherlands and that she could

15 arrange for this man to maybe help her cross the border

16 and that I could come to the Dutch border myself and

17 that we could meet there.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, we're going to

19 take the break at 4.00, so when you come to a

20 convenient point.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, I'm nearly finished, but

22 I wouldn't mind consulting with my colleagues. Perhaps

23 this would be a convenient time for the break, and I

24 should only be, I would say, no more than five minutes,

25 unless you wish me to do it now.

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, I understand

3 that you'd prefer to have the break now.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: No, not really, Your Honour.

5 If you wanted the break now, I could. This would be a

6 convenient time. I'm quite happy to ask about five

7 more questions and be done, but it's up to you.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will go ahead. Judge

9 Hunt wants to ask you a question.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Ryneveld, this may be

12 something you can deal with after the break --

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE HUNT: -- but I'm curious to know where

15 all this evidence fits in.

16 I understand, having looked at the

17 statements, that you seem to be suggesting that

18 Mr. Avramovic lined all this up through Jasna and that

19 Mr. Agnes was involved. Whereabouts is it in, if I may

20 so call them, the charges? You see, these documents

21 were filed after the scheduling order.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.

23 JUDGE HUNT: The charges are in fairly

24 specific terms. They are based upon the statements

25 that have been filed up to that time, or at least those

1 parts of them that was thought should be included, but

2 none of this is in any of the charges. Is it put

3 forward as some sort of similar fact evidence?

4 MR. RYNEVELD: It's certainly being put

5 forward as a body of evidence from which this Court may

6 have to decide the issue of credibility of the main

7 witness.

8 The main witness has put forward

9 allegations. Those allegations, of course, depend on

10 credibility. Insofar as parts of his testimony are

11 capable of corroboration, it is incumbent on us to lead

12 evidence of those elements that are capable of

13 corroboration, and it is for this Chamber to find

14 whether or not you are satisfied about the witness's

15 credibility or reliability about those areas where

16 there is some possibility of corroborating his

17 evidence.

18 Needless to say, many of these other matters

19 are done in such a situation that it would be a

20 "he said/he said" kind of situation. So this evidence

21 is clearly relevant to the issue of the credibility of

22 the main witness, and I will, of course, be happy to

23 try to expand on that, but insofar as --

24 JUDGE HUNT: No, no, you've made it clear.

25 You're not seeking in any way to expand the charges.

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Not whatever, no. The charges

2 are rise and fall on the basis of Mr. Agnes's

3 testimony, but it's clearly relevant for this Court to

4 make the ultimate determination as to what, if any, of

5 Mr. Agnes's evidence you will believe by virtue of

6 looking at the other issues where there is some

7 capability of corroboration.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, I understand that point.

9 Thank you.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm not clear now whether you

11 wanted me to proceed or whether we should have the

12 break.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

15 Q. Now, talking, if we may, just about that last

16 comment about her travelling, did I understand you

17 correctly to say that she indicated to you that she was

18 coming to the Netherlands in August or September of

19 1999? That was the plan?

20 A. Yes, she said that she would travel to the

21 Netherlands with a man, she didn't know exactly when,

22 but she believed it was late August, early September,

23 and that we could arrange somehow -- that she could

24 arrange with the man for her to be taken to the

25 Dutch/German border and that I could come to the German

1 border too and that we could meet there somehow.

2 Q. Now, this is in May of 1999; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, I think that this conversation took

4 place -- that this took place during my last

5 conversation with her.

6 Q. Have you ever heard from Jasna again, since

7 mid May of 1999?

8 A. No, I never did.

9 Q. During one of your conversations with Jasna

10 about her travelling, did she ever indicate to you what

11 she was doing for her livelihood, what her business

12 was, what she was doing?

13 A. Through the conversation, I learned that she

14 had a coffee bar in Bosanski Samac and that she

15 intended to buy another one, that she also travelled a

16 lot with people, but she did not specifically tell me

17 what she did actually.

18 Q. She said she owned this cafe herself, this

19 cafe or coffee bar.

20 A. Yes, she said so, and her boyfriend -- I

21 don't know whether they owned it together or whether

22 they just worked together there, but that she was at

23 least a part owner of that coffee bar.

24 Q. So she told you she had a boyfriend.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Did she ever give you the telephone number of

2 the cafe?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. During the various telephone calls that you

5 had from her, could you ever tell whether she was

6 calling from the cafe?

7 A. Whenever she called, most of the calls that

8 she made, I believe, were not from the cafe, based on

9 what you could hear as background noises, because this

10 conversation took a long time. There were one or two

11 conversations that were made from the cafe because you

12 could hear background noise, and also she put down the

13 receiver to go and get some drinks. But several times,

14 I could gather that she wasn't calling from the cafe

15 because there was silence in the background.

16 Q. At the time that you spoke to Mr. Agnes and

17 he handed the phone off to Jasna, could you tell

18 whether that was one of those silent backgrounds or

19 whether it was a noisy cafe background?

20 A. I'm not sure with respect to that

21 conversation.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Excuse me one moment, if I

23 may, just to consult with my colleagues.

24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

25 Mr. Ryneveld. Before consulting your colleagues, I

1 should like you to ask the witness whether he himself,

2 throughout this period, did he ever call Jasna

3 directly? Did he take the initiative and call her?

4 MR. RYNEVELD: I believe I did ask that

5 question, but I'll ask it -- maybe I misunderstood.

6 Q. Did you ever telephone Jasna yourself,

7 Mr. Sahanic?

8 A. I never personally called Jasna to talk to

9 her. Even though when she called, several times, I was

10 working in Berlin at the time, and if she called when I

11 was at work, I asked her to call later; and if I was

12 finished with work, I just called her and let the phone

13 ring once or twice, and that was a signal for her to

14 call me, but I never made a call to her to talk to

15 her.

16 Q. So each time you spoke to her, she was the

17 one who originated the call.

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: Excuse me one moment, if I

20 may.

21 [Prosecution counsel confer]

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Mr. Sahanic. Those

23 are my questions.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. We'll take the

25 adjournment now and resume at half past four.

1 --- Recess taken at 4.07 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 4.30 p.m.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll continue. I ask

4 whether there is any cross-examination from any of the

5 concerned parties.

6 MR. BRASHICH: None on behalf of Todorovic,

7 Your Honour.

8 MR. PANTELIC: None on behalf of Mr. Tadic,

9 Your Honours.

10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] None on

11 behalf of Mr. Zaric either, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes?

13 MR. HAYNES: Your Honour, I have no

14 cross-examination either.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: In the circumstances, we'll

18 take the adjournment until tomorrow afternoon. At the

19 commencement of those proceedings, we will have the

20 head of the Victims and Witnesses Unit come to provide

21 whatever information he can in relation to the matter

22 at hand.

23 So we adjourn now until tomorrow afternoon at

24 2.30.

25 Ms. Paterson, yes.

1 MS. PATERSON: Yes, Your Honour. I just

2 wanted to bring to your attention, we do have another

3 witness ready to testify today, if you would like to

4 proceed with him. He's a short witness, and we believe

5 we could conclude him quite easily within an hour or

6 less. So we would be happy to proceed with him, if you

7 would like, or if you prefer, we could bring him back

8 tomorrow.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Who is that witness?

10 MS. PATERSON: The investigator, Tore Soldal,

11 from the Office of the Prosecutor.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Paterson, call

14 Mr. Soldal.

15 MS. PATERSON: Yes, Your Honour. Then we're

16 finished with Mr. Sahanic, and the Office of the

17 Prosecutor would call Investigator Tore Soldal.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 MR. BRASHICH: Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Brashich.

21 MR. BRASHICH: Before we break, would the

22 Court entertain a speaking motion?

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: In relation to what?

24 MR. BRASHICH: With regard to the Court's

25 decision of July 27th.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: What decision is that?

2 MR. BRASHICH: That was the decision on the

3 Prosecution's ex parte application which was unsealed

4 by Your Honour's order of October 1.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Brashich, that is not a

7 matter that is related to these proceedings.

8 MR. BRASHICH: None at all, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: We are not disposed to hear

10 it.

11 MR. BRASHICH: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: The witness will make the

14 solemn declaration.

15 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

17 truth.

18 WITNESS: TORE SOLDAL

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Paterson.

20 Examined by Ms. Paterson:

21 Q. Yes, Mr. Soldal. Will you please state your

22 full name and spell your name for the Court?

23 A. Tore Soldal. T-O-R-E, S-O-L-D-A-L.

24 MR. HAYNES: Can I just say this witness can

25 be led, so far as I'm concerned.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm sure you'll take account

2 of that, Ms. Paterson.

3 MS. PATERSON: Yes, Your Honour. I

4 appreciate the Court's desire to expedite the

5 proceeding, and I can assure you we will get through

6 Mr. Soldal's testimony as quickly as possible.

7 Q. Can you please inform the Court, Mr. Soldal,

8 where you currently work and what position you hold?

9 A. I'm an investigator at the OTP, team 5.

10 Q. I would like to direct your attention,

11 Mr. Soldal, to the 6th of May, this year, 1999. On

12 that date, did you have an occasion to meet a man who

13 has been referred to for this proceeding as Mr. Agnes?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. PATERSON: I would like to ask the clerk

16 to show you this piece of paper. If you would just

17 look at the name on this paper, Mr. Soldal.

18 MR. HAYNES: I think this has been

19 established by now, hasn't it?

20 JUDGE HUNT: Let's just get on.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think we can move on.

22 It's not an issue.

23 MS. PATERSON: I appreciate moving on, Your

24 Honours, but we're also appreciative of trying to make

25 a record. Should there ever be an appeal in this

1 proceeding, we would like the record to be full and

2 clear.

3 JUDGE HUNT: There has been no dispute at any

4 time about any of this, Ms. Paterson.

5 MS. PATERSON: Very well, Your Honour.

6 Q. Mr. Soldal, is the person who's named on that

7 piece of paper the man that you know as Mr. Agnes?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Would you describe for the Court, briefly,

10 the circumstances under which you came to meet

11 Mr. Agnes on the 6th of May, 1999?

12 A. It was on mission in Tuzla. I got a phone

13 call from our Sarajevo office, and they told me that an

14 American army camp outside Brcko had called them and

15 said that they had a person who had information about

16 possible war crimes in Bosanski Samac.

17 Q. Did you then proceed to the SFOR base and

18 meet Mr. Agnes at that location?

19 A. This was in the afternoon, and I called my

20 team leader in The Hague. She told me to go to the

21 army camp the day after, so I brought my interpreter

22 and went to the camp the next morning.

23 Q. When you met Mr. Agnes at the camp, how did

24 he introduce himself to you? Did he show you any

25 identification?

1 A. No, he didn't show me any identification when

2 he was introduced to me because all his papers were

3 taken care of by the camp officers.

4 Q. At any point in time, did you see an

5 identification from Mr. Agnes?

6 A. Yes. I asked the intelligence officer in the

7 camp to show me all the documents he brought.

8 Q. Were those documents all in the name that was

9 on that piece of paper that you looked at before?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When you met Mr. Agnes at the SFOR base and

12 in subsequent conversations, did he inform you that he

13 was also known by another name?

14 A. He told me that in Serbia, he used a Serbian

15 name.

16 Q. Can you please tell the Court what that name

17 was?

18 A. Damir Jankovic.

19 Q. And did he explain to you why he used this

20 different name?

21 A. He told me that it was after a suggestion

22 from his uncle, and he had told him that he could live

23 an easier life in Serbia with a Serb name.

24 Q. Did he ever show you any identification in

25 the name of Damir Jankovic?

1 A. He told me that he had identification but he

2 didn't brought [sic] it to the camp.

3 Q. Would you please describe to the Court the

4 demeanour -- the behaviour of Mr. Agnes when you first

5 met him at the SFOR camp in May?

6 A. He was very nervous, and when I asked him to

7 give us an interview, he told me that he was afraid for

8 his life and for his relatives in Serbia. So he wanted

9 actually protection in the army camp before he was

10 willing to talk to me.

11 Q. Was it your impression that Mr. Agnes was, in

12 fact, afraid at that point in time?

13 A. For me, he seemed very afraid.

14 Q. At some point in time after you met him, did

15 you take a formal written statement from Mr. Agnes?

16 A. In the beginning, he wasn't willing to give

17 us a statement because he wanted to know whether he

18 could stay in the camp or not, and I discussed that

19 with him. The agreement was that I could interview

20 him, I could type it, but he wasn't willing to sign it

21 before he knew whether he could stay in the camp or

22 not.

23 Q. Did he ask anything else of you in return for

24 giving you a statement?

25 A. No, he never asked for anything else than

1 this protection from the army camp.

2 Q. Did he ever ask you for money?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did he ever ask you to be relocated to

5 another country?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did he ask you to be provided with a job?

8 A. No.

9 Q. So the only thing he asked you for was

10 security; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you then, in fact, take a written

13 statement from Mr. Agnes that he agreed to sign?

14 A. Yes. This happened during several days. We

15 started in the army camps for two days. Then my team

16 leader in The Hague told me to take him to Sarajevo,

17 and I stayed together with him in an apartment there

18 until it was decided what to do. He actually signed

19 the statement before he knew anything about the future.

20 Q. During the statement that you took from him,

21 did he tell you about an incident in which he

22 acquainted him and accidentally discharged his gun, and

23 a young woman had been shot as a result of this?

24 A. Yes, he told me that when I interviewed him

25 in the camp.

1 Q. Did he tell you that as a result of that

2 shooting incident, he was subsequently placed in gaol

3 in the Republika Srpska?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did he tell you that at some point in time,

6 his uncle assisted him to get out of gaol by making

7 some money payments to some people?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. After you took that first statement from

10 Mr. Agnes, did you take other statements from him as

11 well?

12 A. Altogether, I took five statements.

13 Q. Now, did he explain to you at some point in

14 time that the first statement he gave you, he may not

15 have been completely forthcoming in the information

16 that he had to provide, that he perhaps had left some

17 things out of that first statement?

18 A. The first statement, after he signed it, I

19 went back to The Hague two days after he signed it, and

20 he come one week after me to The Hague. And then we

21 had a meeting, and he told me that he had some more

22 information but he couldn't tell it because he was

23 afraid of the safety for his family.

24 Q. When you took a second statement from him,

25 what was the substance of that statement about?

1 A. The night after he told me that there was

2 more to the story than he had said in the first

3 statement, he called the witness unit and told them

4 that it was important that he see me the next day. So

5 I met him the next day, and he said that he was willing

6 to tell more, give me more information in a statement.

7 Q. So in each of the subsequent statements that

8 you took from him, did he, in fact, tell you more

9 details that he had not given you in the first

10 statement?

11 A. I'm sorry. I don't want to make a mistake.

12 We are now talking about a third statement, and that

13 was just some small clarifications that the team

14 lawyers asked me for. I was thinking about the fourth

15 statement, where he came with more information.

16 Sorry.

17 Q. Let's do this in order, then. The first

18 statement you took from him was after you had returned

19 here to The Hague, or was that still in Sarajevo?

20 A. The first statement was held in Sarajevo.

21 Q. So the first statement had to do basically

22 with the general events that had happened to him in

23 Bosanski Samac and the people that are accused in this

24 proceeding; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. What did the second statement deal with?

2 A. The second statement was about a phone

3 conversation that we taped, when he called Branislav

4 Avramovic.

5 Q. Would you briefly describe to the Court the

6 circumstances under which that phone call was made and

7 why that phone call was made?

8 A. After he told me that he had to call the

9 Defence lawyers every two weeks or 15 days, I asked,

10 "When is the next time you are supposed to call them?"

11 and he told me that he should have called them by now.

12 I asked if he was willing to do a phone call and let me

13 tape it and let me direct what to say in the phone

14 conversation. He was willing, and I got permission

15 from The Hague to do the taping. I told him to tell

16 them that he was in Banja Luka because of the NATO air

17 strike and ask them for money.

18 Q. Did you then, in fact, make this phone call?

19 A. At first, it was very difficult to get

20 through to Serbia, but the first time we got through,

21 he reached Igor Pantelic and he told him to call

22 Avramovic later on. I think we tried for two days --

23 one or two days before we managed to get in touch with

24 Avramovic.

25 Q. Would you then explain to the Court what

1 happened when you finally did get in touch with

2 Mr. Avramovic?

3 A. Then the witness told him that he was in

4 Banja Luka, asked about money. The rehearsal was

5 discussed, I think. I'm not quite sure, but I think

6 so. We had some problems with the tape recorder; we

7 could see it stopped, so the interpreter was listening

8 to the phone conversation, and afterwards, I let the

9 interpreter translate for me what the two persons said,

10 and then I interviewed the witness and he signed the

11 statement.

12 Q. So would you please explain to the Court what

13 your goal was in having him make this phone call? What

14 did you hope to accomplish by making this phone call to

15 Mr. Avramovic?

16 A. The first call was if Avramovic didn't know

17 him at all, we could stop the case or there was no

18 reason to discuss it, to go any further, and if they

19 had information about money, things like that, it could

20 be in evidence.

21 Q. Now, continuing on to the third statement

22 that you took from Mr. Agnes, you said that this

23 basically was a clarification of some issues that the

24 lawyers had asked you to put to him; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. The fourth statement that you took from him,

2 what, in essence, did that statement focus on? What

3 was that about?

4 A. That was after he told me that he had some

5 more information that he didn't want to give me because

6 he was afraid for his relatives. As I said, he called

7 the evening after to the witness unit and asked them to

8 pick him up so he could meet me the next day, and then

9 he said that he had met Milan Simic.

10 Q. So it was in this fourth statement that he

11 first told you that he had actually met Milan Simic; is

12 that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did he explain to you why he had not told you

15 this previously?

16 A. He told me that he was afraid of Milan Simic

17 and that he had a lot of power in the Samac area, and

18 also he was afraid of the Defence lawyers. So he

19 feared what could happen to his family.

20 Q. Then, just briefly, what was the fifth

21 statement about? What was the general subject that was

22 in that statement?

23 A. The fifth statement -- after he signed the

24 fourth statement, he told me he had still more, but if

25 he gave that information, he would also make problems

1 for non-Serbs living in Bosanski Samac, so he couldn't

2 give it to me.

3 Then I had several meetings with him and

4 tried to explain how important it was that he told

5 everything. After a while, he agreed to give us the

6 story, but we were not allowed to write anything while

7 he was telling the story and we were not allowed to use

8 the information. He said that he had met Milan Simic

9 several times in Bosanski Samac, also the Defence

10 lawyers, he told about Mirsad Sahanic, and not so many

11 changes in the main story, but there had been many more

12 meetings and so on.

13 Q. When you took all these statements from

14 Mr. Agnes, how was he in dealing with the issue of

15 dates and being specific as to when certain events

16 occurred?

17 A. The date was all the time a problem. He

18 didn't remember which month it was, and certainly not

19 which day the meetings happened. We had a different

20 definition of meetings. What I referred to as meetings

21 was maybe not a meeting for him, so there were

22 misunderstandings. So all the time I had to use a

23 special criminal intelligence software, where we

24 created time lines so he could put the meetings in the

25 right positions.

1 Q. Did you also have some other meetings with

2 Mr. Agnes since he has been here in The Hague, during

3 which you did not discuss statements or the events that

4 happened in Bosanski Samac?

5 A. Yes. In my summer vacation, I think I had

6 met him once or twice every week since he arrived in

7 The Hague.

8 Q. What would go on during those meetings?

9 A. It was quite strict. When we had a social

10 meeting, we never discussed the case. So you always

11 knew when we were discussing the case or when we just

12 were socialising, drinking coffee, smoking, walking on

13 the beach, whatever.

14 Q. Would you describe, just briefly, what you

15 saw as his emotional and psychological condition during

16 the time that he has been here in The Hague?

17 A. He didn't like the Netherlands at all. I

18 think many times he wanted to go back to Serbia or

19 Bosnia. He didn't speak the language, he was nervous

20 for the future, and he felt or meant that he had to

21 wait too long to testify. So it was always a problem

22 to deal with him. He could be in a bad mood one day

23 and an excellent mood the next day. You never knew

24 which mood he was in.

25 Q. Did you have the sense that it was --

1 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

2 Ms. Paterson, could we learn from the witness how long

3 he stayed in The Hague? Mr. Agnes, how long did he

4 stay in The Hague before testifying in court?

5 A. He arrived the 19th of May.

6 MS. PATERSON:

7 Q. Has he been here in The Hague since then?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Throughout

10 that time, was the witness in contact with Mr. Agnes?

11 A. I was in contact with him every week.

12 MS. PATERSON:

13 Q. Did you have a sense of how it affected him

14 to have to talk about these events that had happened to

15 him, both in 1992 in Bosanski Samac and the recent

16 events he was describing?

17 A. He didn't like to talk about it at all. It

18 was hard for him. I could see he became nervous when

19 we started talking about the case, maybe more about the

20 camp period in Bosanski Samac, but also nervous when we

21 discussed this case.

22 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

23 Ms. Paterson, if I understand well, Mr. Agnes has been

24 here since the 19th of May, which is a long period of

25 time now, a little over four months perhaps. Was this

1 a period required by Mr. Agnes himself, for reasons of

2 security, or did he stay here for so long because that

3 was required of him by your office?

4 MS. PATERSON: Would you like me to answer

5 that question, Your Honour, or would you like me to ask

6 Mr. Soldal that question?

7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] You answer,

8 if you can.

9 MS. PATERSON: Mr. Agnes was brought here to

10 The Hague for the sole purpose of testifying in this

11 proceeding. He has been here since the 19th of May

12 ready to testify in this proceeding and has simply been

13 waiting for the hearing to be scheduled, and he has

14 been kept here during that time for his own safety and

15 security. Once the hearing concludes, he will be

16 relocated to another location that we will obviously

17 keep confidential.

18 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

19 Ms. Paterson, he was kept here for reasons of his own

20 security, waiting to testify; is that so?

21 MS. PATERSON: Yes, that's correct, Your

22 Honour.

23 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 MS. PATERSON: If I can just have one moment,

25 Your Honour.

1 [Prosecution counsel confer]

2 MS. PATERSON: I have no further questions of

3 this witness, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Any

5 cross-examination from any of the concerned parties?

6 MR. BRASHICH: Not on behalf of

7 Mr. Todorovic, Your Honour.

8 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] The same on

9 behalf of Mr. Tadic, Your Honours.

10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] None on

11 behalf of Mr. Zaric.

12 MR. HAYNES: Just so the Trial Chamber is

13 clear as to my position, I will ask this witness a few

14 questions now, but I would ask that he be returned for

15 further cross-examination should we hear any more from

16 Mr. Agnes.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Haynes:

19 Q. Firstly this, Mr. Soldal: During the course

20 of your investigation into these matters, did you ever

21 look into the question of whether Mr. Agnes had

22 criminal convictions in any of the countries of the

23 former Yugoslavia?

24 A. We know about this incident with the girl,

25 and we haven't checked him otherwise.

1 Q. So you made no check as to whether he has

2 criminal convictions in Bosnia, Republika Srpska, or

3 Serbia.

4 A. No.

5 Q. Why not?

6 A. We usually don't do that with witnesses.

7 Q. Other than what he says about it, have you

8 investigated the shooting of the girl in April of 1993?

9 A. No, we haven't investigated that, and I don't

10 think that that's part of the OTP's jurisdiction.

11 Q. Oh, why not?

12 A. It's as he explained it. There was no reason

13 to think it was a war crime.

14 Q. Sorry. It was as he explained it, and you

15 took that at face value, did you?

16 A. No. It was also information about that

17 incident from other sources.

18 Q. You have information from other sources?

19 A. I know about that before. I talked to him.

20 Q. Did you know whether he faced any criminal

21 charges in relation to that?

22 A. I know there were some proceedings in the

23 military court in Bijeljina.

24 Q. What were the charges?

25 A. I don't know.

1 Q. You don't know?

2 A. No.

3 Q. So there were charges, but you don't know

4 what they were.

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you know whether the girl died or not?

7 A. Only the information I have from the

8 witness. He told me that he was told she died, but

9 later on, somebody had told him that maybe she hadn't

10 died.

11 Q. So you haven't really looked into it at all,

12 have you?

13 A. No.

14 Q. It's quite possible, isn't it, that he was

15 charged with murder?

16 A. Yes, it's possible.

17 Q. He told you that he escaped custody for that

18 offence by the use of bribery of a public official.

19 A. He told me that his father had -- uncle had

20 paid somebody to get him released from the prison, and

21 he had to stay in the army.

22 Q. So it's possible he could be a fugitive from

23 a charge of murder.

24 A. I have no information to answer that, but

25 it's a little bit strange that he went to be arrested

1 in Serbia if he was wanted by the authorities in

2 Republika Srpska.

3 Q. Sorry. Would you answer the question? Is it

4 possible that he's a fugitive from a charge of murder?

5 A. It's possible.

6 Q. I'm going to move on a bit now to the end of

7 June.

8 At the end of June, Mr. Avramovic and

9 Mr. Simic filed documents setting out the nature of

10 their defence to these charges. Did you see them?

11 A. End of June? I think so. I didn't see the

12 latest one, but the end of June, I saw them.

13 Q. Were the contents of those documents

14 discussed with Mr. Agnes?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Not at all?

17 A. Not at all.

18 Q. Not in one of the conversations you had with

19 him when you told him it was important he should tell

20 everything?

21 A. Never.

22 Q. Just one more thing. You took his first

23 statement over the course of two days, I think, on the

24 5th and 6th of May, at Camp McGovern.

25 A. Yes. Yes and no. We continued in Sarajevo.

1 Q. You continued the first statement in

2 Sarajevo, did you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When? On the 10th of May? I may have said

5 June earlier on. I'm very sorry. I meant May, if I

6 didn't say that.

7 A. Yes, I continued -- it was signed the 10th,

8 and he was interviewed in the period between the 6th

9 and the 10th of June.

10 Q. So the first statement that we have is the

11 product of how many days' interviewing?

12 A. I think four, because he wasn't interviewed

13 every day. He was very tired, and we did this through

14 phone calls and so on.

15 Q. On the first day, according to your

16 declaration, you interviewed him for five hours.

17 A. Yes, and stayed in the camp with him for five

18 hours, so it's difficult to ...

19 Q. And on the second, for four and a half

20 hours.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And there was further interviewing on the

23 subsequent two days; is that what you're now saying?

24 A. We -- I interviewed him in the camp, I got

25 the whole story in the camp, and then we stayed

1 together in -- yes, until the 12th of May, and in the

2 period between the 7th and the 10th, we were working on

3 some details, especially dates. He had problems with

4 dates.

5 Q. The method of your interview, was it by you

6 asking him questions and then recording the answers

7 where they were relevant?

8 A. Yes, I was asking him questions, yes, but he

9 was also speaking freely for quite a long time.

10 Q. Right. So it's a combination of voluntary

11 disclosure by him coupled with questions from you and

12 answers from him.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. During the course of those four days, did you

15 ask him whether he had met Milan Simic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I assume, from the contents of that

18 statement, he said no.

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. Then you interviewed him again in The Hague

21 on the 25th of May.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was the method of interview the same?

24 A. No, because then it was a few details I

25 wanted, so I asked him questions.

1 Q. You asked him questions?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you ask him about his contact with Milan

4 Simic?

5 A. No, I don't think I asked that question

6 during that interview, but I can't be 100 per cent

7 sure.

8 Q. You can't be 100 per cent sure. Do you have

9 any notes of the interview?

10 A. No.

11 Q. But you asked him how many times he spoke to

12 him on the phone, didn't you?

13 A. Yeah.

14 Q. You asked him whether he had ever met him?

15 A. I could have asked him, but I don't think so,

16 because then I hadn't any reason to believe that he had

17 met Milan Simic.

18 Q. The third interview, that's the 25th of May

19 interview, can you give us some idea how long that

20 took?

21 A. Normally, he met me around 1.30, so it could

22 have taken three, four hours.

23 Q. Now, on the 7th of June, you interviewed him

24 again in The Hague, didn't you?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Over what length of time?

2 A. The same.

3 Q. Again on the 7th of June, you asked him

4 whether he had ever met Milan Simic?

5 A. The 7th of June statement, he told me that he

6 met Simic.

7 Q. Yes. How many times?

8 A. One.

9 Q. When?

10 A. I'm sorry, I don't remember the date.

11 Q. Well, I'll help you. April 1999.

12 Then on the 20th of July, you interviewed him

13 for a fifth time in The Hague?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Again over a number of hours?

16 A. Yes. Then we interviewed him the 20 --

17 Q. I haven't come to that yet. I'm sorry, I

18 have. The 20th of July, you interviewed him a fifth

19 time?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The length of time?

22 A. Four hours or something.

23 Q. Four hours?

24 A. And a readback the next day.

25 Q. And on that occasion, you asked him about

1 meeting Milan Simic?

2 A. It wasn't me that asked him; it was he that

3 told me or let me interview him about the story he told

4 me some days before.

5 Q. Right. Can we take it that there was no

6 perceptible difference in his demeanour between the

7 interview taking place in May, the interview taking

8 place on the 25th of May, the interview taking place on

9 the 7th of June, and the interview taking place on the

10 20th of July?

11 A. Sorry, I don't understand the question.

12 Q. Yes. I mean did he look and behave much the

13 same on the occasions of all of these interviews?

14 A. More or less, he looked and behaved the same,

15 but of course he knew me much better in late June than

16 in the beginning of May.

17 Q. Did you think he was telling you the truth

18 between the 6th and the 10th of May?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you think he was telling you the truth on

21 the 25th of May?

22 A. The 25th of May, yes, because then I didn't

23 ask a question about other things than some details.

24 Q. And the same on the 7th of June?

25 A. The 7th of June, he told me immediately after

1 he signed that there were more, so of course then I

2 know that it wasn't the truth, the whole truth.

3 Q. Is it your belief that the 20th of July is

4 the whole truth?

5 MS. PATERSON: Your Honours, can we just

6 correct the record, that that statement was not taken

7 on the 20th of July; it was taken on the 20th of June,

8 if we could just correct the record.

9 MR. HAYNES: I'm sorry, you ought to look at

10 your own documents. You've corrected that in a

11 document that you filed with the Chamber, because we

12 raised the question of the dates on that statement.

13 Your own document confirms it's the 20th of July.

14 MS. PATERSON: I'll let Mr. Soldal explain

15 that.

16 MR. HAYNES:

17 Q. It's your belief, is it, that the 20th of

18 July is the whole truth?

19 A. You're asking me the question?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. I think that's almost the whole truth. There

22 can be more details that he means is not important for

23 the case, but I think it's the truth.

24 Q. Well, let me see if you agree with this as a

25 summary of what he told you on the 20th of July: A

1 handful of meetings with Mr. Simic and the lawyers?

2 A. Yeah.

3 Q. Did he say to you at any stage that he had

4 met them up to ten times a month?

5 A. That he met the lawyers or Milan Simic?

6 Q. Either that he had meetings with the lawyers

7 or Mr. Simic up to ten times a month. Did he ever say

8 that?

9 A. Not that I remember, but he described --

10 tried to describe every meeting and placed them on a

11 time line.

12 Q. Can you help us as to how we can tell when

13 he's telling the truth and when he isn't?

14 A. I can help you how? Sorry, can you --

15 Q. Yes. You thought he was telling the truth in

16 May, but he wasn't?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Is there anything about his demeanour in May

19 that indicated to you he was lying?

20 A. No, but I didn't know him well then.

21 Q. You knew him a lot better by the end of May,

22 didn't you? Was there anything about his demeanour on

23 the 25th of May, when you spent several hours with him,

24 that indicated to you that he was lying?

25 A. No, because, as I already have told, I only

1 asked him some details. You can see there are not such

2 big differences between the statement signed the 10th

3 and the statement signed the 25th.

4 Q. Well, let's go straight to the 20th of July,

5 then. If it be his account now that there were many,

6 many, many more meetings than he described to you, was

7 there anything about his demeanour on the 20th of July

8 that indicated to you that he was lying?

9 A. No.

10 Q. So if it wasn't the truth on the 20th of

11 July, you, who knows him better than anybody in this

12 courtroom, couldn't tell?

13 A. Of course, I can't tell when people are

14 telling the truth or not.

15 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, Mr. Soldal.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Re-examination.

17 MS. PATERSON: Just very briefly, Your

18 Honour.

19 Re-examined by Ms. Paterson:

20 Q. Mr. Soldal, I want to direct your attention

21 to this fourth statement that was taken on the 7th of

22 June. Do you recall that statement?

23 A. Yeah.

24 Q. In that statement, Mr. Agnes made some

25 reference to going to a meeting in Bosanski Samac in

1 April of this year. Do you recall that part of the

2 statement?

3 A. Yeah.

4 Q. Have you since been able to determine whether

5 or not that date at the beginning of April this year

6 is, in fact, correct, or was that somehow a

7 misunderstanding between you and Mr. Agnes?

8 A. When I had finished the statement, I put it

9 into an analyst's notebook, this analyst programme we

10 use at the OTP, and made a time line and showed it to

11 him; and he, when he read the time line, he said, "This

12 meeting is wrong because it was before the air strike."

13 Q. So when you talked with him about it

14 subsequently, he corrected himself and --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. -- said that meeting did not happen in April;

17 is that right?

18 Mr. Soldal, Mr. Haynes has just asked you

19 whether or not you believed Mr. Agnes, whether you

20 thought he was telling you the truth. Do you recall

21 that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Could you tell the Court what it is that you

24 rely on in making your assessment that Mr. Agnes has

25 been telling you the truth, other than the fact of his

1 demeanour, as Mr. Haynes was asking you? What are the

2 points that, to you, convince you that Mr. Agnes is

3 telling the truth?

4 A. First of all, he has never asked me for

5 anything. He has never been -- never asked me to take

6 him out of the country, he never asked me for money,

7 for a job, so I can't understand why he should lie.

8 For me, there is no reason for that.

9 Secondly, when you read a statement, you can

10 see that, yes, he has lied, but it was always a

11 reason. He wanted to protect family, friends, and so

12 on. He lied when he said that he hadn't met Milan

13 Simic. He lied about how he came to Bosanski Samac

14 this evening before the war started.

15 The next statement where he told -- or the

16 fourth statement where he told he had met Milan Simic

17 only once, he told me immediately after he had signed

18 the statement that he had much more information, but he

19 wouldn't tell it because it was too dangerous for

20 people living in Samac. So in some ways, I can

21 understand why he gave the story this way.

22 MS. PATERSON: I have no further questions,

23 Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Soldal, thanks for your

25 testimony. You're released.

1 [The witness withdrew]

2 MR. RYNEVELD: Those are then all the

3 witnesses we have to adduce at this time.

4 You indicated you would take the adjournment

5 when we indicated that we had this further witness.

6 Those are our witnesses.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much,

8 Mr. Ryneveld.

9 As I indicated before, at the commencement of

10 tomorrow's session at 2.30, we will hear from the head

11 of the Victims and Witnesses Unit. The Registrar is

12 required to pass on that information to the Victims and

13 Witnesses Unit.

14 We take the adjournment now until 2.30

15 tomorrow.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

17 5.20 p.m., to be reconvened on

18 Wednesday, the 6th day of October, 1999,

19 at 2.30 p.m.

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