Page 519
1 Monday, 29th November, 1999
2 [Rule 77 hearing]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.35 p.m.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Will the Registrar call the
7 case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your
9 Honours. Case number IT-95-9-R77.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes, we are
11 continuing with the presentation of your case. Your
12 next witness?
13 MR. HAYNES: Your Honour, I call Goran
14 Neskovic.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours?
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes?
17 MR. ZECEVIC: May I be allowed to address the
18 Chamber before the witness is brought in? In
19 accordance with the ruling of the Trial Chamber of the
20 5th of November, on a closed session, during the
21 testimony of Mr. Vukovic, as the former Defence counsel
22 of Mr. Milan Simic, I would request that the validity
23 of that decision be expanded to include Mr. Neskovic as
24 a former attorney of Mr. Simic, and Mr. Avramovic, a
25 former Defence counsel, too, because it is normal to
Page 520
1 expect the questions to affect the attorney/client
2 privilege, and for this reason it would be better to
3 hold it in closed session.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld?
5 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honours. Last day,
6 when this matter was raised with respect to
7 Mr. Vukovic, I anticipated, in fact, that the type of
8 questioning would well be along the lines that counsel
9 was concerned about, and accordingly the Prosecution
10 took no position with respect to the application.
11 At the end of the proceedings, it was clear
12 that there was nothing whatsoever about the questioning
13 in chief and/or in cross which could possibly have
14 warranted the concern expressed by counsel, in my
15 respectful view, and accordingly, I would like to make
16 a submission that on this occasion, that we proceed in
17 open session until such time, perhaps, as an issue
18 arises, which would only be known to the Defence as to
19 whether or not the issue arises, and then perhaps
20 submissions could be made on the point. But to simply
21 give a blanket closed session to these proceedings
22 would, in my respectful view, be contrary to an earlier
23 ruling made by this Chamber concerning the balance of
24 the proceedings being in open session except for the
25 evidence of Mr. Agnes.
Page 521
1 Those are my submissions.
2 [Trial chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we think there is merit
4 in Mr. Ryneveld's submission. Proceedings are, by the
5 Rules and by the Statute, to take place in open
6 session. I think all interests can be protected in the
7 manner suggested by Mr. Ryneveld. When a point comes
8 up which involves some exposure of the witness in the
9 manner raised by Defence counsel, then an application
10 can be made for us to go into closed session, but I
11 think we must proceed in open session until such time.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the
14 solemn declaration.
15 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
17 truth.
18 WITNESS: GORAN NESKOVIC
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes?
21 Examined by Mr. Haynes:
22 Q. Is your full name Goran Neskovic?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I think you were born on the 21st of April of
25 1955, and you are thus 44 years of age; is that
Page 522
1 correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And I think you currently live in Doboj?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So far as your professional career is
6 concerned, were you a judge of the municipal court of
7 Teslic between 1978 and 1985?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you work for the office of the public
10 prosecutor between 1985 and 1992?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Between 1992 and 1993, were you president of
13 the high court of Doboj?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And between 1993 and 1995, an assistant
16 minister of justice for the Republika Srpska?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Between 1995 and 1998, were you a deputy
19 minister and also the liaison officer between the
20 Office of the Prosecutor here in The Hague and the
21 government of Republika Srpska?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I want to ask you about the 28th of September
24 of 1998. Do you remember where you were on the 28th of
25 September of 1998?
Page 523
1 A. On the 28th of September, 1998, I was in
2 Belgrade.
3 Q. Did you leave Belgrade that day?
4 A. No, that day I was working on my visa, which
5 I needed to travel to Holland, and in the afternoon I
6 did leave Belgrade to go to Sremska Mitrovica.
7 Q. With whom did you go to Sremska Mitrovica?
8 A. I went to Sremska Mitrovica in the afternoon
9 with Mr. Avramovic, at his request. This is about an
10 hour's drive from Belgrade to Mitrovica. We went to a
11 village near Mitrovica.
12 Q. Do you remember the name of the village?
13 A. No.
14 Q. When you got to the village, where did you go
15 to?
16 A. In that village, we stopped in front of a
17 house, and we were welcomed there by two men. One of
18 them was a young man, the other an older man; I think
19 he was fair, quite heavily built. And we were sitting
20 at the terrace of that house.
21 Q. So far as you understood, what was the
22 purpose of your going there?
23 A. Mr. Avramovic told me that he needed to talk
24 to a witness in that village, but I didn't know that
25 witness.
Page 524
1 Q. How long were you at the house in total?
2 A. It is hard to say exactly, but about one hour
3 and 15 minutes, or one hour 10 minutes.
4 Q. And when you first arrived there, you say you
5 were welcomed. Where did you initially sit at the
6 house when you arrived there?
7 A. We sat on the terrace, on the kind of porch.
8 You go up a few steps. And we spent some time there
9 and we talked about some private matters. Since the
10 elderly man and I myself learnt through conversation
11 that we had a common acquaintance, so we spoke about
12 him.
13 Then there was quite a lot of talk about the
14 arrest of Stevan Todorovic, who had been arrested the
15 previous day, so that all the media in Yugoslavia and
16 Republika Srpska had published this item. So those
17 were the topics discussed.
18 Q. How many people were sitting on the terrace?
19 A. A total of four. Myself, Avramovic and these
20 two men.
21 Q. Did all four remain on the terrace when you
22 were at the house?
23 A. No. We sat there for a while on the terrace,
24 and after that Mr. Avramovic and this younger man went
25 into the sitting room that you go into from the
Page 525
1 terrace. And they sat at a dining table. And I stayed
2 on the terrace with this fair man, as the subject
3 didn't interest me, as I was about to leave to defend
4 Stevan Todorovic.
5 Q. How long did you remain on the terrace?
6 A. Maybe about half an hour. I know that when
7 we were about to leave, because I was in a hurry, I sat
8 next to Avramovic for about 10 minutes and asked him
9 that we should hurry up and leave.
10 Q. Did you go inside the house?
11 A. Yes. Yes. The last ten minutes I went in to
12 ask him to leave.
13 Q. When you went inside, can you tell us what
14 Mr. Avramovic and the young man were doing?
15 A. They were briefly discussing Samac, and I
16 think they also mentioned Brkco. But I didn't really
17 pay any attention, so I can't really remember.
18 Q. Did you see a tape recorder in the room when
19 you went into the house?
20 A. No. No. I don't remember. I saw some files
21 from the Prosecution in front of them, binders.
22 Q. While you were in the company of the younger
23 man, that's before he went in and when you went in at
24 the end, what was the atmosphere of the conversation
25 that was going on between him and Mr. Avramovic?
Page 526
1 A. Normal atmosphere. They knew one another.
2 Q. Did you yourself do anything to intimidate or
3 frighten this young man while you were at the house?
4 A. No. No.
5 Q. And did you ever see that young man again?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Neskovic.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is that Ms. Hayden?
9 MS. HAYDEN: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Cross-examined by Ms. Hayden:
11 Q. Thank you, Your Honours.
12 Good afternoon, sir, my name is Suzanne
13 Hayden. I have a few questions for you.
14 You indicated that you never saw this young
15 man again, but had you ever seen him before?
16 A. No, never.
17 Q. That was the first time that you had ever
18 seen Mr. Agnes?
19 A. The first time.
20 Q. Have you ever worked with Mr. Avramovic on
21 this case, with the exception of your involvement with
22 Mr. Agnes?
23 A. Yes. I worked for two months on the case,
24 for two months, in July and August -- no, August and
25 September. Until the 29th of September.
Page 527
1 Q. And you were working in a partnership of some
2 sort with Mr. Avramovic? Were you working in some sort
3 of partnership with Mr. Avramovic during this time?
4 A. You mean did we have a joint office? You
5 mean on the case? I was the investigator on this case,
6 and that's how we worked together.
7 Q. And you were investigating all of the
8 individuals involved; is that correct?
9 A. No. In August and September, in the case
10 against Milan Simic I was the investigator. And if you
11 are thinking of a partnership in the form of an office,
12 I have my own office in Doboj, and that is where I
13 worked.
14 Q. Did you work at some point with Mr. Avramovic
15 on behalf of Blagoje Simic?
16 A. Oh, no. At the request of Blagoje Simic, the
17 request was that two attorneys request to visit The
18 Hague Tribunal in connection with his indictment. This
19 was in August. And that was just one act that took one
20 day.
21 Q. Thank you. Have you read Mr. Agnes'
22 statements surrounding this hearing?
23 A. The statements he made in Court here?
24 Q. That's correct.
25 A. No.
Page 528
1 Q. Have you read the statements that were
2 submitted to the Court, sworn statements?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Have you reviewed the statement you wrote on
5 behalf of Mr. Simic?
6 A. Yes. I made a statement on the 18th of July,
7 this year, to Mr. Avramovic. That statement, yes. I
8 read it. It is my statement.
9 Q. And what else have you reviewed before coming
10 here today?
11 A. I took notes and I reviewed in specific
12 terms, I can show you, my passport to show that the
13 visa was issued on the 28th. And that is how I can
14 remember the event. This is my old passport. Because
15 the previous night I hadn't been assigned as counsel
16 for Stevan Todorovic.
17 Q. You misunderstand me. What I am asking you
18 is in preparation to come here today to talk about
19 anything, or to know about this case, did you review
20 anything other than your passport?
21 A. I reviewed my statement and my notes, the
22 notes I had taken to remind myself.
23 Q. And these were the notes that you made
24 contemporaneously with your interview on September
25 28th; is that what you are saying?
Page 529
1 A. No. No. No, notes that I took to remind
2 myself of the course of events. After that interview,
3 these things I have just told you, these are my own
4 personal notes on a piece of paper.
5 Q. When did you make the notes?
6 A. This month.
7 Q. I'm sorry, I couldn't hear that.
8 A. In July. I'm sorry. In July. Three months
9 ago I made those notes. The 28th was a Monday, that on
10 that day I was picking up my visa; that the 27th was a
11 Sunday, I remember speaking to Stevan Todorovic in the
12 evening; that on the 26th, in the evening, Stevan was
13 arrested. I remember on that day that I was in Banja
14 Luka. Those were the notes that I took down to remind
15 myself.
16 Q. Let me ask you about your duties as an
17 investigator for Mr. Avramovic. Did you take notes
18 while you were being an investigator?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you make notes of the meeting on
21 September 28th?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And did you make those notes ever again?
24 A. No. No. As investigator, I regularly
25 reviewed my notes, both in September and in August,
Page 530
1 because as an investigator I sought to take down notes
2 as reminder of the event. And about 10 days prior to
3 this visit I reviewed my notes and tried to compile a
4 statement about the overall situation in Samac.
5 Q. When was it that you compiled the overall
6 statement about what happened in Samac that you just
7 described? When was that?
8 A. I made the statement on the 18th of July.
9 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this. You just said,
10 "And about 10 days prior to this visit I reviewed my
11 notes and tried to compile a statement." Ten days
12 prior to what visit is this visit?
13 A. Oh, I see. I understand what you are asking
14 me. We were in Mitrovica on the 28th of September. As
15 an investigator, in September I was constantly
16 reviewing Avramovic's notes. I reviewed his notes
17 precisely regarding the circumstances of what this
18 witness had told him before that. You don't understand
19 me?
20 Q. Let me go on just a little bit. And we'll
21 come back to that. Since you have reviewed your
22 statement, let me ask you a few questions about it. In
23 your statement you said that Mr. Avramovic informed you
24 on the necessity for attainment of a conversation with
25 Mr. Agnes. Why was it necessary?
Page 531
1 A. Yes. He didn't explain why he needed to talk
2 to him. He just told me that he needed to talk to him,
3 because he had talked to him already prior to that.
4 Q. So you had no conversation with Mr. Avramovic
5 about why you were going on a trip when you were trying
6 to get ready to go to The Hague to represent another
7 client?
8 A. He asked me to accompany him to Mitrovica so
9 he wouldn't go alone, because he needed to talk to a
10 witness. That was the only reason why we went there.
11 My reason, was my reason for going there.
12 Q. But the fact of the matter is, according to
13 your testimony, that you were busy getting ready, you
14 had no interest in going, and you didn't even sit and
15 talk to this witness?
16 A. That is correct. We just spoke about
17 personal matters or general matters, the arrest of
18 Stevan Todorovic, but not about the case. I didn't
19 discuss that with him.
20 Q. Could you be a little more specific about who
21 "him" is? Are you talking about Mr. Agnes? Are you
22 talking about the blond man? Are you talking about
23 Mr. Avramovic, that you didn't discuss any details
24 with?
25 A. I'm talking about the younger man, who is
Page 532
1 called Agnes.
2 Q. You had no -- let me just be clear on this:
3 You had no substantive conversation whatsoever with
4 Mr. Agnes during this meeting; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Were you aware that he had been in Samac,
7 detained in Samac, Mr. Agnes?
8 A. No. I assumed he had been, because I had
9 read Avramovic's previous notes.
10 Q. And yet your testimony is today that this
11 witness didn't interest you, you didn't pay attention,
12 you had no interest, even though he was a witness that
13 might have information about the client you were going
14 to The Hague for tomorrow?
15 A. No, I don't know at all that he had any
16 information about my client. I didn't know that. I
17 wasn't aware of it.
18 Q. My point precisely. So if you didn't know
19 that he had information about your client, but you knew
20 from Mr. Avramovic that he had information about a
21 co-defendant, wouldn't it normally be your practice to
22 ask a few questions to see if this could be a witness
23 that was helpful to you?
24 A. No. I didn't -- it never even occurred to me
25 that I could use him as a witness.
Page 533
1 Q. Well, in your statement, you seem to have
2 recalled that he was a Muslim and had been in Samac
3 during the war; now, did you forget that today?
4 A. Quite simply, I didn't like to use the word
5 "Muslim" in front of the Court, so I used -- I
6 referred to him as a younger man.
7 Q. Well, sir, I would suggest that we've
8 probably all heard that word before, and it might be
9 more helpful to be specific, because I would assume
10 that there are young men of many races, creeds, and
11 colours.
12 MR. HAYNES: Is that a question?
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's a comment,
14 Ms. Hayden. Let's move on.
15 MS. HAYDEN:
16 Q. You indicated that Mr. Avramovic was showing
17 Mr. Agnes documents. Can you tell us what kind of
18 documents those are?
19 A. I can't tell you because I didn't pay any
20 attention. They were just binders.
21 Q. Well, I believe that you testified on your
22 direct that they were Prosecution binders, so I was
23 going to ask you how you knew.
24 A. Yes. Yes, they have special files, binders,
25 and our ones have very poor paper in them, but these
Page 534
1 were nice files with a metal wiring to the end of
2 them. Glossy paper.
3 Q. When you left with Mr. Avramovic, did you
4 discuss what had just taken place?
5 A. What period are you thinking about? The
6 events here in court?
7 Q. I'm thinking about when you left with
8 Mr. Avramovic on September 28th after your meeting with
9 the young man and his uncle.
10 A. Yes?
11 Q. Well, as you got into the car and drove away,
12 did you talk?
13 A. Oh, no. No. No, not at all. I wasn't
14 interested in anything like that. I was on my way to
15 The Hague, and I wasn't interested in that case.
16 Q. Let me clarify one thing. On September 28th,
17 your job as an investigator was over; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And your job representing Mr. Todorovic had
20 just begun; is that correct?
21 A. Just begun, yes. It started the following
22 day, in fact.
23 Q. Did you have any conversations -- let me
24 start over.
25 Have you had any conversations with
Page 535
1 Mr. Avramovic about Mr. Agnes since September 28th?
2 A. No, only when he told me that he could be a
3 potential witness, and that was in July this year --
4 that I could be a potential witness, I beg your
5 pardon.
6 Q. Did he tell you the nature of the
7 proceedings?
8 A. No, he just asked me whether I remembered the
9 event; that is to say, when we went to Mitrovica, just
10 that, the two of us.
11 Q. In your capacity as an investigator, did you
12 submit bills for your work on this case?
13 A. I only kept records of the work that I did,
14 and the chief lawyer would send in the bills, submit
15 bills.
16 Q. What kinds of records did you keep?
17 A. Well, for example, my trip to the Samac
18 municipality, the review of documentation, my trip to
19 the Defence Ministry, my conversation with
20 such-and-such a witness and preparations in that
21 respect. The kind of work that investigators do. My
22 trip to Banja Luka, to the military court there, the
23 judge and so on, that kind of thing.
24 Q. But not this particular trip; is that
25 correct? The particular trip on September 28th?
Page 536
1 A. The trip to Mitrovica, you mean?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. No, that was not one that was scheduled in
4 advance, and I went out of friendship with my
5 colleague, not as an investigator. So it wasn't a trip
6 that was scheduled in advance.
7 Q. Well, was it the practice of the firm to
8 submit bills for such trips as this?
9 A. If you have a trip scheduled to some
10 particular place, and if that is the job you're doing,
11 then it would be normal to submit a bill for the work
12 you do, because you have incurred costs and expenses.
13 MS. HAYDEN: If I might just have one moment,
14 please.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Hayden, are you going to ask
16 him directly, was he paid for this particular trip?
17 That's what you are after, isn't it?
18 MS. HAYDEN: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Were you paid for this trip, sir?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You indicated in your statement that you
22 spent an -- that the four of you spent an extended
23 period of time as well as other issues related to a
24 mutual acquaintance. And can you tell me what "an
25 extended period of time" is?
Page 537
1 A. About half an hour. Half an hour,
2 thereabouts. Because you have one hour to go to
3 Mitrovica; if you have to spend an hour coming back and
4 an hour there, that is three hours. And it was in the
5 afternoon, and I was in a hurry, because my departure
6 for The Hague the next day was at 5.00 a.m.
7 Q. I think you misunderstood my question. I
8 simply wanted a definition for your idea of an extended
9 period of time discussing the method of Stevan
10 Todorovic's arrest. Do you think that was about
11 30 minutes? 45 minutes? An hour?
12 A. Well, about 30 minutes -- or, no, we spent
13 30 minutes on private discussions, not about the
14 arrest. It was the first time the arrest took place
15 outside Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it was interesting to
16 everybody to discuss it. And we discussed other
17 matters: our mutual friend, and so on.
18 Q. I'm simply addressing the issue of the time
19 that you spent during this meeting. Now, if I could, I
20 will tell you that you said that the four of you sat on
21 the terrace and spent an extended period of time
22 discussing the method of Stevan Todorovic's arrest.
23 This is your words. Afterwards, they left, "I
24 continued to confer --"
25 A. That's right.
Page 538
1 Q. And so how long do you think this lasted?
2 A. About another half hour. My conversation was
3 another half hour with the host before he went into the
4 kitchen.
5 Q. And then you joined Mr. Avramovic and
6 Mr. Agnes, and you heard them conferring about Samac.
7 You were sitting down watching Mr. Avramovic take
8 something down in a notebook. How long do you think
9 this lasted?
10 A. I was there ten minutes. The two of them had
11 previously been speaking together for about half an
12 hour, perhaps an hour.
13 Q. Sir, when you were the deputy minister of
14 justice in the Republika Srpska, you were aware that
15 Mr. Todorovic had been arrested, had you not -- I'm
16 sorry, indicted.
17 A. Oh, no. No. I was the liaison officer with
18 The Hague at the time when he was indicted. I think it
19 was in 1996. I'm not quite sure.
20 Q. So you were not aware that he had been
21 indicted at that time? At the time you were the deputy
22 minister, you were not aware he had been indicted?
23 A. Well, I was -- in 1993 and 1994 I was an
24 assistant, and Stevan Todorovic was indicted in 1996,
25 as far as I recall, which was when I was the deputy
Page 539
1 minister and liaison officer with The Hague, and I was
2 an assistant from 1993 to 1995.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Neskovic.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Re-examination.
5 Re-examined by Mr. Haynes:
6 Q. Just two questions. Did you have prior
7 authority to travel to Sremska Mitrovica so far as the
8 United Nations Registry was concerned?
9 A. No. No.
10 Q. And the other one is: Who took you to the
11 airport to fly to The Hague?
12 A. In the morning?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. A taxi.
15 MR. HAYNES: Thank you very much. I have no
16 further re-examination.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Neskovic, that concludes
18 your testimony. You are released.
19 [The witness withdrew]
20 MS. PATERSON: While we have this break,
21 could we just ask the Court to move the ELMO. It
22 blocks our view of the witnesses when they are sitting
23 here.
24 If they could just disconnect it and move
25 it.
Page 540
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Registrar, could you
2 have that attended to, please.
3 Mr. Haynes, your next witness.
4 MR. HAYNES: Jasna Marosevic, Your Honour.
5 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
7 truth
8 WITNESS: JASNA MAROSEVIC
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes.
10 Examined by Mr. Haynes:
11 Q. Is your full name Jasna Marosevic?
12 A. Yes. Yes.
13 Q. And how old are you, Ms. Marosevic?
14 A. I'm 26 years old.
15 Q. Were you born in a town called Gradac?
16 A. Gradac, yes.
17 Q. And --
18 A. Gradacac.
19 Q. Thank you. I think that's about 50
20 kilometres away from Bosanski Samac, isn't it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Have you lived in Samac all your life?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you currently live with your father and
25 your brother?
Page 541
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What happened to your mother?
3 A. My mother died last year.
4 Q. Can you tell us something about the state of
5 health of your father?
6 A. Well, my father is ill. He suffers from
7 asthma.
8 Q. And just so that we are clear, what religion
9 are you?
10 A. I am a Croat.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Could you have that
12 clarified.
13 MR. HAYNES:
14 Q. Do you mean that you are a Catholic?
15 A. Yes. Yes. That's right.
16 Q. And in terms of people in Bosnia, that makes
17 you a Croat, doesn't it?
18 A. I don't quite understand your question.
19 Could you repeat that, please.
20 Q. [Microphone not activated] -- a Croat and a
21 Catholic?
22 A. Yes. Yes.
23 Q. Now, were you residing in Bosanski Samac when
24 the war started in April 1992?
25 A. Yes.
Page 542
1 Q. Had you been living in Samac long when the
2 war started or had you been away somewhere?
3 A. Well, I was in Germany for a year before the
4 conflict in Samac broke out.
5 Q. And when did you come back?
6 A. One and a half months before the war.
7 Q. Just so that we are clear, how old were you
8 when the war started?
9 A. Nineteen.
10 Q. When you came back to Samac, did you meet
11 Mirsad Sahanic?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What job was he then doing?
14 A. He was a policeman.
15 Q. And where did he live?
16 A. He lived in the Hotel Plaza, which is called
17 the Hotel Serbia today.
18 Q. And was he your boyfriend?
19 A. Yes. Yes.
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 543
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 MR. HAYNES:
15 Q. So far as you were concerned, where did
16 Mr. Agnes live?
17 A. In the Hotel Plaza, which today is called the
18 Hotel Serbia.
19 Q. Now, just briefly, what else did you know
20 about him? Where did he originate from? What did he
21 do for a job of work?
22 A. (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 Q. Now, when the war began, what was it that
25 made you first aware that war had started?
Page 544
1 A. Mirsad and Mr. Agnes in the morning at about
2 4.00 a.m., came to see me armed, and they said that the
3 war had started and that I should go to the shelter.
4 Q. Where had you been the previous evening, and
5 with whom?
6 A. We were in the discotheque, I myself,
7 Mr. Agnes, Mirsad and Mr. Agnes's girlfriend.
8 Q. And when they came at 4.00 in the morning,
9 you say they were armed. What sort of arms were they
10 carrying?
11 A. Mirsad had an automatic rifle and so did
12 Agnes. He also had an automatic rifle.
13 Q. What were they wearing?
14 A. Mirsad was wearing a flak jacket and a police
15 uniform and Mr. Agnes only had a flak jacket on.
16 Q. Did you go with them?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you go alone or did you go with other
19 members of your family?
20 A. I went with my mother, my father and my
21 brother.
22 Q. Where did you go to?
23 A. They took us to the shelter in the next door
24 house.
25 Q. Were there other people there?
Page 545
1 A. Yes, there were.
2 Q. How many others?
3 A. Well, about 10, 15 people.
4 Q. And how long did you remain there?
5 A. Several days.
6 Q. What could you hear outside while you were
7 inside the shelter?
8 A. How do you mean?
9 Q. Well, did you eventually leave the shelter?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. When did you next see Mirsad?
12 A. In the TO building.
13 Q. And that was how long after he had taken you
14 to the shelter?
15 A. About 20 days later.
16 Q. Had he visited you while you'd been in the
17 shelter?
18 A. Yes, once.
19 Q. And what about Mr. Agnes?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So when you emerged from the shelter, you saw
22 Mirsad again in the TO building. Do you remember that
23 meeting?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you take anything to him?
Page 546
1 A. Not the first time. The second time, when I
2 went the next day, he told me to take him a change of
3 clothing and some food.
4 Q. Did you see Mr. Agnes on either of those
5 visits?
6 A. Yes. On the second occasion when I took him
7 food.
8 Q. Did you take Mirsad food on a number of
9 occasions?
10 A. Yes, several times.
11 Q. Did he remain in the TO building or did you
12 see him somewhere else in Samac?
13 A. He wasn't in the TO building all the time.
14 They transferred them to the primary school after that.
15 Q. Did you see Mirsad in the primary school?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What about Mr. Agnes?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you remember the last time you saw each of
20 them? I should emphasise, at that time.
21 A. I can't remember.
22 Q. Where was it?
23 A. At the primary school.
24 Q. And from that time to this time have you seen
25 Mirsad Sahanic since?
Page 547
1 A. No.
2 Q. What about Mr. Agnes, when did you next see
3 him?
4 A. In 1993, in May.
5 Q. Where did you see him?
6 A. He came to the cafe where I work, the Lotos
7 coffee bar.
8 Q. How did he look when you saw him?
9 A. He came wearing a uniform, with a rifle, a
10 camouflage uniform. He had binoculars with him.
11 Q. Did he tell you what the uniform was?
12 A. It's a camouflage uniform belonging to the
13 army of the Republika Srpska.
14 Q. Now, just to deal with a different topic
15 briefly. During 1992 were you ever detained yourself?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. For how long?
18 A. Seven days.
19 Q. Was your father ever detained?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. For about how long?
22 A. Three months.
23 Q. And after his detention, did you decide to
24 remain in Bosanski Samac?
25 A. Yes.
Page 548
1 Q. Now, after you'd been detained, did you start
2 work?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Where did you work?
5 A. In the Lotos Cafe bar. First in the
6 municipality in Samac.
7 Q. Well, in the municipality, what job did you
8 have there?
9 A. We made coffee.
10 Q. Is that where you first met Milan Simic?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Would you make his coffee?
13 A. Yes. For everyone.
14 Q. Would you describe him as a friend?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Is he somebody you are frightened of?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Have you been put under any pressure to come
19 and give your evidence here today?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Can we go back to Mr. Agnes, please. After
22 you saw him in 1993 in the cafe, when he was wearing
23 the uniform, when next did you see him?
24 A. Last year after the death of my mother; a
25 month and a half after that.
Page 549
1 Q. When did your mother die?
2 A. On the 21st of June last year.
3 Q. Where did you see him?
4 A. He came to the coffee bar where I was working
5 and then he came to my house.
6 Q. Did he tell you what the purpose was of his
7 visit?
8 A. Yes. He wanted to visit my mother's grave
9 with me.
10 Q. He knew your mother, did he?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And did you visit your mother's grave?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What did you learn about the life he was
15 living at that time?
16 A. He told me that he had gone to Serbia, that
17 he was living there now with relatives because he was
18 afraid to go back to Bihac where he comes from.
19 Q. Did he explain why he was afraid to go back
20 to Bihac?
21 A. Allegedly because he had been in the army of
22 Republika Srpska.
23 Q. Other than Serbia, did he give any greater
24 particulars about where he had been living?
25 A. No.
Page 550
1 Q. Did he mention any towns?
2 A. Leskovac, Mitrovica.
3 Q. Was he working?
4 A. In Serbia, yes.
5 Q. As what?
6 A. He said that his uncle had a private firm and
7 that they were working together.
8 Q. Did he stay at your house the first time that
9 you saw him in 1998?
10 A. Yes, he spent the night, and then he left
11 immediately.
12 Q. Did you see him again after that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How long after was it that you next saw him?
15 A. A couple of days. He would come and go.
16 Q. The next time that you saw him, how long did
17 he stay?
18 A. Two or three days. Then he left to visit
19 friends in Banja Luka, and then he came back again for
20 a day or two.
21 Q. Now, you first met him just before the start
22 of the war, that's right, isn't it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When he came on that or any other visit, did
25 you discuss what had happened in the war?
Page 551
1 A. Yes. Well, yes.
2 Q. Did you ask him whether he knew Milan Simic
3 in one of these conversations?
4 A. Yes. Yes.
5 Q. Do you remember whether he said he did or he
6 didn't?
7 A. He told me that he knew him by sight, because
8 Mr. Simic was in a wheelchair. So everyone knows him.
9 Q. Did you tell him that Milan Simic had been
10 accused of war crimes in relation to what had happened
11 in Samac?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What was his reaction to that?
14 A. He told me that as far as he knew, Mr. Simic
15 hadn't done anything bad, and he would tell anyone who
16 asked as much.
17 Q. Did you tell anybody that he had said that?
18 A. Not then.
19 Q. Did you tell Milan Simic that he had said
20 that?
21 A. I don't remember whether we talked about
22 that. But I think I did.
23 Q. Did you ask Mr. Agnes whether he was prepared
24 to talk to Mr. Simic's lawyers?
25 A. Yes.
Page 552
1 Q. And was he?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you do anything to put him in touch with
4 them?
5 A. With Mr. Simic? I don't understand.
6 Q. Did you do anything to put him in touch with
7 Mr. Simic's lawyers?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you have a telephone number for any of
10 Mr. Simic's lawyers?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you remember where you got it from?
13 A. I asked for the number from Mr. Simic.
14 Q. This is the point I'm trying to establish.
15 Do you remember how it came to be that Mr. Simic gave
16 you the number of his lawyers?
17 A. I asked for it.
18 Q. Well, I've asked you this question before. I
19 want you to think about it again. Do you remember
20 whether you told Mr. Simic about Mr. Agnes?
21 A. I can't remember exactly.
22 Q. Well, what was it that made you request or
23 take the telephone number of his lawyer from Mr. Simic?
24 A. I asked him to give it to me in case I spoke
25 to anyone. Then I should able to get in touch with the
Page 553
1 lawyers.
2 Q. Very well. Did you arrange a meeting between
3 Mr. Agnes and one of Mr. Simic's lawyers?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Where did that take place?
6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Haynes,
7 I should like to ask the witness -- actually, you asked
8 her whether she organised a meeting between Mr. Agnes
9 and the counsel of Mr. Simic. I should like to ask the
10 witness whether she organised that meeting at her own
11 initiative, or whether someone had asked her to do it.
12 A. I asked. Nobody told me anything. I called
13 up the attorney.
14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) I would like
15 to put another question to the witness.
16 Why did you take this initiative?
17 A. Just like that, because I wanted to help
18 Mr. Simic, because I know he hadn't done anything
19 that ...
20 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Thank you.
21 MR. HAYNES:
22 Q. How many conversations did you have with
23 Mr. Agnes about meeting Mr. Simic's lawyers?
24 A. I just asked him, and he said that he was
25 willing to see the attorneys. And then, afterwards, he
Page 554
1 told me he had told the attorney everything and that he
2 would in future be in touch with him.
3 Q. Did he seem at all worried about meeting
4 Mr. Simic's lawyers, or did he seem quite keen to do
5 it?
6 A. He was willing, keen, yes.
7 Q. So can we move on to the meeting. Did
8 Mr. Agnes come to your cafe again after you had
9 discussed with him talking to the lawyers?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you tell him you were going to contact
12 the lawyers and tell him he was there and willing to be
13 spoken to?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did he raise any objection to that?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Who did you telephone?
18 A. Mr. Drago Vukovic.
19 Q. Do you remember when that was?
20 A. In mid-August last year.
21 Q. And do you know where Mr. Simic was at that
22 time?
23 A. Yes, he was in a spa.
24 Q. Just so we're clear, not in Bosanski Samac?
25 A. No, not in Samac.
Page 555
1 Q. Did Mr. Vukovic come to the cafe that day?
2 A. Yes, the same day.
3 Q. Did you introduce him to Mr. Agnes?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you remain with them?
6 A. No, they left. I stayed on alone.
7 Q. Just so that we're clear, how many times did
8 you meet Mr. Vukovic?
9 A. That time.
10 Q. Any other?
11 A. I don't remember.
12 Q. Do you remember any other occasion when
13 Mr. Vukovic and Mr. Agnes were in your cafe together,
14 or that you ever saw them together?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Now, when next did you see Mr. Agnes after
17 that meeting?
18 A. I think in March this year, it was, I think.
19 Q. Well, can I be clear: We're talking about
20 August of last year when you introduced Mr. Agnes to
21 Mr. Vukovic at the cafe.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you see Mr. Agnes again in August?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So that we have the picture, from August of
Page 556
1 last year, how often would you see him, Mr. Agnes?
2 A. Maybe two or three times. I can't remember
3 exactly how many times.
4 Q. And did he usually stay at your house?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. The next time that you saw him after the
7 meeting in the cafe with Mr. Vukovic, did he talk about
8 what he had told Mr. Vukovic?
9 A. No. He just told me that in future he would
10 be in touch with him; that he had told the lawyer
11 everything; and that he would keep in touch with him in
12 the future.
13 Q. Did he seem worried about being in touch with
14 Mr. Vukovic?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Now, do you remember when you first learned
17 that Mr. Simic's lawyer was to become Mr. Avramovic?
18 A. In October, I think. I think it was in
19 October.
20 Q. Had you by then met Mr. Avramovic?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you have a discussion with Mr. Avramovic
23 about what Mr. Agnes had told him?
24 A. He told me, Mr. Avramovic told me that he had
25 spoken to Mr. Agnes and that he would get in touch with
Page 557
1 him. I know he referred to an event, that Mr. Agnes
2 had told him that he had been travelling through
3 Samac. I found that strange because I knew that he had
4 stayed at the hotel. And I said that that was not
5 true.
6 Q. You told Mr. Avramovic that, did you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you see Mr. Agnes in Samac after you'd
9 had that conversation with Mr. Avramovic?
10 A. I can't remember.
11 Q. Well, after October did he ever stay at your
12 house again?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you recall how many times?
15 A. A couple of times. I can't remember exactly
16 how many times.
17 Q. Did you talk to him when he stayed at your
18 house?
19 A. Yes. Yes.
20 Q. And what impression did you get then of his
21 position; what he was doing, where he was going, that
22 sort of thing?
23 A. He wasn't doing anything in particular. He
24 went out, he went to cafes, he came back. He went to
25 see some friends.
Page 558
1 Q. What about work?
2 A. He wasn't working at all, in Samac at least,
3 no.
4 Q. Now, did you and he ever discuss Mirsad
5 Sahanic?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you discuss getting in touch with him?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did Mr. Agnes want to get in touch with him?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Was he able to?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. How was he able to?
14 A. I gave him his telephone number.
15 Q. And before that he didn't have it?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you call Mirsad Sahanic during 1998 and
18 1999?
19 A. Yes. I and Mr. Agnes called him together.
20 Q. How many times did you call him?
21 A. Once or twice. I can't remember exactly.
22 Q. Why did you want to speak to him?
23 A. Well, we had known each other. I wanted to
24 see how he was, what he was doing.
25 Q. Did Mr. Sahanic ever call you?
Page 559
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. How many times did he call you?
3 A. A couple of times. Four times. I don't
4 remember.
5 Q. When you first called him, what number did
6 you use?
7 A. Mr. Agnes called him at home. He dialled his
8 home number.
9 Q. Did you continue to call him on that number,
10 or did you use a different number?
11 A. I used his mobile number.
12 Q. Did Mr. Sahanic give that to you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you ever call him at his office at work?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did he give you that number as well?
17 A. [No audible response]
18 Q. Did you, during the course of your
19 conversations with him, try and arrange a --
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter
21 apologises.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: We didn't get that
23 interpretation.
24 MR. HAYNES:
25 Q. Ms. Marosevic, I asked you whether Mirsad
Page 560
1 Sahanic gave you his office telephone number. What's
2 the answer to that, please --
3 A. The telephone number was the number of his
4 mobile telephone, which he carried to work.
5 Q. Thank you. During your conversations with
6 him, did you discuss meeting him?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Where did you discuss meeting him?
9 A. Somewhere, perhaps in Tuzla or somewhere
10 else.
11 Q. Did it matter to you where you met him?
12 A. No.
13 Q. And why did you want to see him?
14 A. Like that, I wanted to talk to him, and he
15 too wanted us to meet.
16 Q. Now, when you called him, from where were the
17 telephone calls made?
18 A. From the coffee bar where I was working.
19 Q. Did you ever make a telephone call to him
20 from Mr. Simic's office?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Were you ever present when a telephone call
23 was made from Mr. Simic's office to Mirsad Sahanic by
24 Mr. Agnes?
25 A. No.
Page 561
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15
16
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18
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Page 562
1 Q. Have you ever seen Mr. Agnes in the company
2 of Mr. Simic?
3 A. No.
4 Q. The telephone calls you made to Germany, as
5 we know it to be, were they too expensive for you to
6 afford?
7 A. No.
8 Q. How many do you think there were in total?
9 A. A couple of calls. I don't remember exactly
10 how many.
11 Q. Did there come a time when Mirsad told you
12 not to call any more?
13 A. Yes. He didn't tell me that exactly, but,
14 rather, he said he would call me because his wife had
15 noticed that the two of us were talking, and she was
16 creating problems. And that is what he said.
17 Q. Did there come a time when he stopped calling
18 you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, when was the last time that you saw
21 Mr. Agnes?
22 A. In April this year.
23 Q. And where was that?
24 A. In my house.
25 Q. Did you see him in March of this year?
Page 563
1 A. Yes. Yes.
2 Q. Did he talk to you about the impending NATO
3 bombing of Serbia?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What did he say about that?
6 A. He came prior to the bombing, a couple of
7 days before. He said that the police had been looking
8 for him to mobilise him. He was afraid that he would
9 be sent to Kosovo, and so he fled over here to
10 Republika Srpska.
11 Q. Now, the last time you saw him in April, did
12 he stay at your house?
13 A. I don't quite understand. What do you mean?
14 Q. When you last saw him, where was it?
15 A. In my house.
16 Q. Was that just a quick visit, or had he been
17 there for any length of time?
18 A. He stayed for a while.
19 Q. How long did he stay for?
20 A. From March until the end of April. But he
21 went to see a friend in Banja Luka for a couple of
22 days.
23 Q. During the time he was staying with you, did
24 he, to your knowledge, meet Mr. Avramovic?
25 A. I don't remember. I don't remember. I think
Page 564
1 yes.
2 Q. Do you remember ever seeing Mr. Agnes with
3 Mr. Avramovic?
4 A. Yes. Yes, I do remember.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes, we are at about
6 the time to break, if it's convenient.
7 MR. HAYNES: I should say it's very
8 convenient.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll break for 20 minutes.
10 --- Recess taken at 4 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 4.20 p.m.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Haynes.
13 MR. HAYNES:
14 Q. Now, just before we broke, Ms. Marosevic, you
15 were telling us that you recall an occasion when
16 Mr. Avramovic had met Mr. Agnes, or you had seen them
17 together. Do you know the name Spasoje Pisarevic?
18 A. Spasoje Pisarevic, yes.
19 Q. Have you ever seen him in the company of
20 Mr. Agnes?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Once, or more than once?
23 A. Once.
24 Q. And were there just the two of them there, or
25 was somebody else there as well?
Page 565
1 A. Mr. Avramovic, Pisarevic, and Mr. Agnes.
2 Q. Where were they?
3 A. In the cafe where I work.
4 Q. How long were they there?
5 A. A short time. We had a drink and they left.
6 Q. I'll come back to that. Do you remember when
7 that was, that meeting that you were describing?
8 A. I can't remember exactly when it was, but
9 perhaps it was March. I can't remember exactly.
10 Q. Do you mean March of this year, 1999?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. And when you say "we had a drink," were you
13 sitting with these men?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And how long were the four of you together?
16 A. 10, 15 minutes. We just had something to
17 drink.
18 Q. And who was it that left?
19 A. Mr. Agnes, Mr. Avramovic, and Mr. Pisarevic.
20 Q. Now I want to come on to the last time you
21 saw Mr. Agnes. Where did you understand he was going
22 when you last saw him?
23 A. He told me that he was going to visit friends
24 in Pelagicevo.
25 Q. And had he stayed the previous night at your
Page 566
1 house?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You may have already given evidence about
4 this, but how long had he been staying at your house,
5 on and off, by that stage?
6 A. Several times he would come, and then go and
7 see some friends, then he would come back. Several
8 times. I can't remember exactly how many, but ...
9 Q. Did you expect to see him again when he left
10 and said he had gone to Pelagicevo?
11 A. Yes. Yes, he said he would be back.
12 Q. When did you realise he wasn't going to be
13 back?
14 A. After some 15 days or so. I don't know
15 exactly how long.
16 Q. Did he leave anything behind at your house
17 after he left that time?
18 A. Yes, yes, he did. He left his things.
19 Q. How were they contained?
20 A. In a bag, in a travelling bag.
21 Q. And where was that left?
22 A. It was left in my house.
23 Q. Do you remember in particular where you
24 discovered it?
25 A. In a part of the cupboard where I keep some
Page 567
1 things.
2 Q. I'm going to show you a bag and see whether
3 you recognise it.
4 Does that look like the bag that you found in
5 the cupboard at your house?
6 A. Yes. Yes.
7 Q. When you first discovered it, what sort of
8 state was it in? Was it zipped up, like it is now, or
9 in some other state?
10 A. No, it was open, and the things were jumbled
11 up inside.
12 Q. What did you do with it, immediately that you
13 found it?
14 A. His towels were in the bathroom, and they
15 were his. I took the towels and put them in the bag
16 and closed the bag up and left it in the cupboard.
17 Q. Did you, on that occasion, see what was
18 inside the bag?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Why was that? Did you reorganise the stuff
21 in the bag?
22 A. Yes, they were all scattered about, so I had
23 to reorganise them in order to be able to close the
24 bag.
25 Q. What did you see inside the bag when you
Page 568
1 reorganised it and repacked it?
2 A. There was some T-shirts and trousers, a
3 jacket, the jacket was next to the bag, socks. There
4 was some documents, things like that.
5 Q. Do you remember now any of the documents that
6 were inside the bag when you first discovered it?
7 A. Yes. There was an army booklet. There was a
8 paper from the Red Cross and some visiting cards.
9 Q. Now, did you hand that bag to anybody else?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Who did you hand it to?
12 A. To Mr. Avramovic.
13 Q. Do you remember when that was?
14 A. It was in September. September. That's when
15 it was. It was my birthday, the 16th of September.
16 Q. Other than the towels that you put in it, did
17 you put anything else in that bag?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did anybody else in your family or otherwise
20 put anything in that bag?
21 A. No.
22 Q. And when you took it to Mr. Avramovic, where
23 did you take it to?
24 A. To the office of Mr. Pisarevic.
25 Q. And who was there when you took the bag?
Page 569
1 A. Mr. Avramovic and Ms. Tatjana.
2 Q. Just so we are clear, that's the lady sitting
3 to my left, is it?
4 A. Yes. Yes.
5 Q. And when you took the bag there, what did you
6 do?
7 A. I opened the bag and showed them the stuff
8 that was inside.
9 Q. Did you take the items out one by one?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And as you took each item out, did you
12 describe it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What was Ms. Tatjana doing?
15 A. She was writing on the computer, making a
16 note of the things that were in the bag. She was
17 making a record of it.
18 Q. Was a document produced by the computer that
19 day?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you read that document?
22 A. I did.
23 Q. Did it accurately record the items that had
24 been taken from the bag?
25 A. It did.
Page 570
1 Q. And did you sign it to say that it did?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I am going to show you a document, and you
4 can use it to refresh your memory.
5 MS. PATERSON: Your Honours, may we have a
6 copy before it's shown to the witness.
7 MR. HAYNES: In English or Serbian?
8 MS. PATERSON: Which do you think,
9 Mr. Haynes? We prefer the English, thank you.
10 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Haynes,
11 after this series of details, could you ask the witness
12 whether the contested document was in the bag, because
13 there is no challenge as to the clothing. Could you
14 ask the witness directly so that we can make progress,
15 that is focus on the point that is a cause of problem,
16 whether there was a document, specifically a passport.
17 Could you please proceed more directly to speed things
18 up.
19 MR. HAYNES: Yes. I believe, actually, with
20 respect, she's actually already answered that.
21 JUDGE HUNT: She hasn't. What she said was
22 there were some military documents --
23 MR. HAYNES: Well, I think she said a
24 military passbook, but I am taking this carefully
25 because of the question of provenance.
Page 571
1 Q. Can I just make the position clear. You are
2 about to be handed documents. I have no objection to
3 that, but at the moment I think this only has the
4 status of a memory refreshing document, and if anybody
5 wants to object to you seeing that, they should say so
6 now. But it may make matters a lot shorter if we just
7 have the document in front of all of us.
8 Mrs. Marosevic, is that the document you
9 signed that day?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now that everybody has a copy of this, I am
12 not going to take you through every item. But can you
13 go to the third page. Is there a heading there that
14 says the bag also contains the following documents?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What was the first document that was drawn
17 from the bag?
18 A. It was the army booklet.
19 Q. Now, I want you to see Defence Exhibit D1
20 now, please. Is that the document that you took out of
21 the bag?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And just so that we are clear, there is a
24 photograph in there. Can you see it? Can you have a
25 look at it?
Page 572
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Who is it in the photograph --
3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Haynes,
4 I should like to ask the witness whether finding the
5 document in the bag -- whether you looked at it? Did
6 you look at the document? Did you open it when you
7 found it in the bag?
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Why did you
10 open it?
11 A. Well, just so I could see what it said in the
12 army booklet.
13 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] And when you
14 opened it, you read what it said?
15 A. Yes. Yes.
16 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] You read
17 everything?
18 A. Well, not everything, but just the first
19 page.
20 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Only the
21 first page?
22 A. Yes, the first and second pages.
23 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] The first or
24 the second?
25 A. Both.
Page 573
1 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] So you read
2 the first two pages?
3 A. Yes.
4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] And you
5 recognised the document that you found?
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] The one you
8 have in your hands is the one you found?
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 MR. HAYNES:
12 Q. Just so we are clear about this, do you
13 remember whether you counted the number of pages in the
14 booklet before you described it to Ms. Tatjana?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, you were just looking at the
17 photograph.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you recognise the man in that photograph?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Who is it?
22 A. It's Mr. Agnes.
23 Q. And you knew him in 1992, and you saw him in
24 1993? Are you able to help us about when that
25 photograph would have been taken, from your knowledge
Page 574
1 of him?
2 A. Well, in 1993, because he's wearing a uniform
3 of the army of the Republika Srpska, and you can see
4 that on the photo. You can see that he's wearing a
5 uniform.
6 Q. When you knew him in 1992 and 1993, how did
7 he wear his hair?
8 A. He had longer hair, in strands.
9 Q. Did he have any colour in it?
10 A. As far as I know, no.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes, I just want to
12 have established how much time had elapsed between the
13 time when the bag was left there by Mr. Agnes and the
14 time when she took out the military document.
15 MR. HAYNES:
16 Q. Certainly. Do you know the precise date when
17 Mr. Agnes left your house for the last time?
18 A. I don't know the exact date, but I do know
19 that it was at the end of the April.
20 Q. When did you first look in the bag?
21 A. About 15 days later.
22 Q. Did you see that document, the army booklet
23 you are looking at now, then?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And the one you have in your hands is the
Page 575
1 same one you saw sometime in May probably?
2 A. Yes, of course.
3 Q. Now, do you remember when it was that you
4 took the bag to Mr. Pisarevic's office?
5 A. In September, on the 16th of September, or
6 17th.
7 Q. And the document you pulled out then, was
8 that the one you have in your hands now?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And did you recognise it as the same one
11 you'd seen in May?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. Now, just one more topic,
14 please. You live with your brother and your father?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Are you close to your father?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. If anything troubled him, would he talk to
19 you about it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Has your father ever met Milan Simic?
22 A. Only in passing.
23 Q. Has your father ever met Drago Vukovic?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Branislav Avramovic?
Page 576
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When was the first time he met Branislav
3 Avramovic?
4 A. I can't remember exactly, but I do know that
5 it was in the coffee bar where I work. My father
6 happened to come along, and Mr. Avramovic was there.
7 Q. Well, can you help us: Was it recently, or
8 was this a long time ago?
9 A. Not a long time ago.
10 Q. Well, can you be more precise? Was it this
11 year?
12 A. Yes, this year.
13 Q. Within the last month, two months, three
14 months? How long?
15 A. Perhaps two months.
16 Q. And this was not a meeting by arrangement;
17 this was a chance encounter?
18 A. A chance encounter, yes.
19 Q. Now, I want you to think about this: Has
20 your father been put under any pressure to make false
21 witness statements by any lawyer or on behalf of Milan
22 Simic?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Would he have told you if he had?
25 A. Yes.
Page 577
1 Q. Just one more question which I'm asking
2 because I'm told the transcript originally was wrong.
3 On the night before the war started, you told us you
4 went to a discotheque?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Who did you go with?
7 A. There was myself, Mr. Agnes, Mirsad, and
8 Agnes's girlfriend.
9 Q. Thank you, Ms. Marosevic.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Paterson?
11 MS. PATERSON: Yes, Mr. President. Before I
12 begin asking the witness questions, I would like to
13 clarify just a couple of matters.
14 First of all, it's come to our attention that
15 we, myself and Mr. Haynes, the Office of the Prosecutor
16 and Mr. Haynes, were under the impression that all of
17 the witness statements and all the documents that had
18 been submitted to the Court before this hearing began
19 had, in fact, been brought to Your Honours' attention
20 and that you had read those documents before the
21 hearing began. Can we clarify, is that a correct
22 understanding on our part, or are we to assume that
23 those documents are not in evidence and need to be
24 introduced into evidence now as new documents that have
25 not been considered as potential evidence?
Page 578
1 JUDGE HUNT: We've certainly got them, but
2 should you not tender them to make it formal?
3 MS. PATERSON: That is what I'm just trying
4 to clarify. This is a --
5 JUDGE HUNT: It's no good just leaving them
6 up in the air on the basis we've read them. I must say
7 I assumed you would be tendering them all. I thought,
8 in fact, they had been tendered, but --
9 MS. PATERSON: Well, that's all I'm trying to
10 clarify. There was some misunderstanding on what the
11 status was of those documents.
12 Can I also clarify, then, and perhaps I can
13 get a statement from Mr. Haynes regarding this. This
14 document that he has just presented, that Ms. Marosevic
15 has just testified to, is entitled "Witness Statement,"
16 and it's dated the 17th of September. We did receive a
17 signed statement from Ms. Marosevic dated the 13th of
18 June, but this statement was never brought to our
19 attention. Can I clarify that this statement was never
20 brought to the Court's attention as well, and that this
21 is the first time it's being tendered, and is there
22 some explanation why all the other statements were
23 brought to our attention and this one was not?
24 JUDGE HUNT: I would guess that it's an
25 evidentiary statement rather than a witness statement,
Page 579
1 because she said that she checked the list as it was
2 typed out, that it was correct as to the contents of
3 the bag. That means it's not a witness statement; it's
4 a document from which she can refresh her recollection,
5 and in accordance with the Rules of this Tribunal, it
6 would become evidence in hearsay.
7 MS. PATERSON: Yes, I understand that, Your
8 Honour, but the document clearly is entitled "Witness
9 Statement."
10 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, well, that may be. I have
11 never seen it before.
12 MS. PATERSON: Okay. I just wanted to
13 clarify that fact, that it has not been brought to our
14 attention or the Court's.
15 Finally, I would like to clarify that before
16 we began this proceeding, Mr. Haynes asked permission
17 for Ms. Tatjana -- I'm sorry, I don't remember her last
18 name now -- to be present in court. Can we confirm
19 that at that time, Mr. Haynes did not inform us or the
20 Court that Ms. Tatjana could be a potential witness
21 before this proceeding, as now appears apparent from
22 the testimony of Ms. Marosevic? That might have
23 affected our agreement as to whether or not she should
24 participate in this proceeding.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes?
Page 580
1 MR. HAYNES: Yes, I'll be perfectly frank. I
2 only knew the manner in which this list was compiled
3 yesterday.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE BENNOUNA: Mr. Haynes, I would like to
6 ask you to clarify, please, this document, because
7 we -- I did not notice that it is titled "Witness
8 Statement," which is not the correct title. Because if
9 I understood what you said, it was an exhibit, a sort of
10 computer document by Ms. Tatjana. Have you, in
11 Serbian, the original?
12 MR. HAYNES: Yes, Ms. Marosevic has the
13 document in Serbian, and it bears her signature.
14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: At what time was this
15 document -- I don't know how it is in Serbian. Was it
16 typed by Ms. Tatjana? Or can you clarify this for us,
17 please?
18 MR. HAYNES: It's a matter of evidence. This
19 witness has said that as she produced each item from
20 the bag, she described it, Ms. Tatjana, at the time,
21 was sitting at a computer, and that paper subsequently
22 came out of the computer which she read to herself and
23 assured herself were the accurate descriptions of the
24 items in the bag, and then she signed it. The fact of
25 this bag and where it was recovered from was put to
Page 581
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4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
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14 the English and French transcripts
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 582
1 Mr. Agnes, I think on the second day he gave evidence.
2 I take the view that the scheduling order
3 invited me to submit then witness statements from those
4 upon whom I was going to rely, and Ms. Marosevic was
5 one of them. This came to light subsequently. When I
6 looked at it, I thought it's not an exhibit, it's a
7 memory-refreshing document, and I would invite her to
8 use it in that way.
9 I had been under the impression until
10 yesterday that there must have been a manuscript
11 version of this. I hadn't realised that the thing had
12 been immediately computer-generated and signed at the
13 time, and that explains -- and I didn't know
14 Ms. Tatjana was there when the --
15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: But you know that really,
16 you had to produce this document and to inform, I
17 think, the representative of the Prosecutor. Since it
18 is right, you had to inform the Prosecutor and the
19 Court of the existence of this document at the normal
20 time; that is, it is not normal that you produce it
21 now. But now it is here, and we can move on, I think.
22 MR. HAYNES: Yes.
23 MS. PATERSON: I don't want to belabour this
24 point, but can we just clarify for the record. If
25 Mr. Haynes didn't find out about this until yesterday,
Page 583
1 certainly Ms. Tatjana and Mr. Avramovic knew about this
2 when it was signed on the 17th of September. Can we
3 confirm that --
4 MR. HAYNES: That's not what I am saying.
5 That's not what I am saying. What I am saying is I
6 didn't realise that the manner in which a document I
7 had regarded as a potentially memory-refreshing
8 document had been created with the assistance of
9 Ms. Tatjana Cmeric. I didn't know that until
10 yesterday. And I had taken the view that as a
11 memory-refreshing document I had assumed wrongly there
12 must be a manuscript version and it should be sought.
13 I enquired about that yesterday and I was told how this
14 document was created.
15 Now, it would not be right to suggest I
16 didn't know about the document before yesterday. I
17 knew about it probably when we were first here, but I
18 took the view that the scheduling order had been
19 complied with in terms of witness statements upon whom
20 I rely being called, and that this was a document that
21 could be properly used as a memory-refreshing
22 document. And that's all I ever intended it to be used
23 as. I didn't --
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Haynes. Will
25 you proceed now, Ms. Paterson.
Page 584
1 Cross-examined by Ms. Paterson:
2 Q. My name is Nancy Paterson, and I am going to
3 ask you a series of questions. Please let me know if
4 you don't understand any of my questions. I'll be
5 happy to rephrase them for you.
6 I'd like to just clarify, I know you
7 testified to this previously, but you are a 26 year
8 old -- 26 years old; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you've lived in Bosanski Samac your
11 entire life?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And what is your educational background? Did
14 you graduate from high school? Did you attend any
15 college courses?
16 A. I graduated secondary catering school. It
17 was a course given by the catering school.
18 Q. And, as you stated, your mother is -- has
19 passed away, but you are living with your father and
20 brother; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you said your father is ill. Is he able
23 to work and provide any support for the family?
24 A. No, he is not working.
25 Q. What about your brother, is he working? Does
Page 585
1 he provide support for the family?
2 A. Yes, he is.
3 Q. Okay. And you stated that you continued to
4 live in Bosanski Samac throughout the years that the
5 war was going on, 1992 to 1995; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, you stated that you are a Croat, that's
8 your ethnicity; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. But it's a fact, is it not, Ms. Marosevic,
11 that a large number, as a matter of fact the majority
12 of the Croats left Bosanski Samac during the war years;
13 is that not true?
14 MR. HAYNES: There is no evidence of that.
15 How can that be put in these proceedings?
16 JUDGE HUNT: She can ask the question.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: She can ask the question.
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. PATERSON:
20 Q. Many Croats left, did they not?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, Bosanski Samac today is still in the
23 area that's called Republika Srpska; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And the Republika Srpska is an entity that's
Page 586
1 controlled primarily by Serbs; is that not correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And the current government of Bosanski Samac
4 is primarily controlled by Serbs; is that not true?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, I would just like to clarify, before you
7 came to testify here, you stated that you had several
8 conversations earlier with Mr. Avramovic. Did you
9 discuss with either Mr. Haynes or Mr. Avramovic the
10 testimony of other witnesses who have already testified
11 in this proceeding?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Are you aware, for example, that Mr. Agnes
14 has already testified in this proceeding?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were you informed of the substance of his
17 testimony, things he had said when he was here in
18 Court?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And Mirsad Sahanic, were you aware that
21 Mr. Sahanic has testified here?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were you informed of the substance of what
24 Mr. Sahanic said?
25 A. No.
Page 587
1 Q. Were you ever informed that both Mr. Agnes
2 and Mr. Sahanic had prepared several written witness
3 statements that were provided to the Court, and did you
4 ever have an opportunity to see those statements?
5 A. No.
6 Q. And you yourself prepared a written
7 statement, did you not, that I believe was signed on
8 the 17th of June 1999; is that correct?
9 A. Yes. Yes. Yes.
10 Q. And before you signed that statement, did you
11 have an opportunity to read it over to confirm that
12 everything in the statement was correct and true as
13 best you could recall?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And were you informed when you prepared this
16 witness statement the purpose this statement was going
17 to be used for; that it was going to be brought to the
18 Judges' attention in this proceeding?
19 A. I asked Mr. Avramovic what it was for. He
20 told me that he couldn't tell me; that all I had to do
21 was say what I knew about Mr. Agnes.
22 Q. But did he ask you to give a full and
23 complete statement, everything that you could remember
24 that you thought was important about your interaction
25 with Mr. Agnes?
Page 588
1 A. Yes, everything I know about him.
2 Q. And you also included everything that you
3 could remember about your contacts with Mirsad Sahanic;
4 is that correct?
5 A. With Mirsad Sahanic?
6 Q. Yes. You made some references to Mirsad in
7 your statement; is that not correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And so you put everything that you could
10 remember about your contacts with Mirsad in this
11 statement as well; is that not true?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, you've stated that you are currently
14 employed at a cafe bar in Bosanski Samac called the
15 Cafe Lotos; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How long have you been working at that cafe?
18 A. Since 1993.
19 Q. So did you ever work at a cafe called the
20 Jetset?
21 A. No.
22 Q. In your current job at the Cafe Lotos, could
23 you tell us what you do there? Are you basically a
24 waitress, do you serve drinks and coffee? What exactly
25 do you do?
Page 589
1 A. Drinks, coffee, everything we serve.
2 Everything.
3 Q. Do you have any other jobs or
4 responsibilities outside of working at this cafe bar?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Can you tell me how much you earn a month,
7 every month, from working at the cafe bar,
8 approximately?
9 A. 250 to 300 German marks.
10 Q. Do you ever have occasion to travel, to
11 travel to other towns or cities in Bosnia, or to even
12 other countries in Europe?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you ever do that in relation to your work,
15 or is that just for personal reasons?
16 A. For personal reasons.
17 Q. Now, do you own this Cafe Lotos, or do you
18 simply work there?
19 A. No. I just work there.
20 Q. Who owns the cafe?
21 A. Alexandar Jankovic.
22 Q. Is he also known by the nickname Aco?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. How long have you known Mr. Jankovic?
25 A. Since '93.
Page 590
1 Q. How would you describe your relationship with
2 Mr. Jankovic? Is it purely professional or is there a
3 personal nature to the relationship?
4 A. Purely business.
5 Q. Do you know if there is any relationship, a
6 personal relationship between Mr. Jankovic and Milan
7 Simic?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And what is that?
10 A. Mr. Simic is Mr. Jankovic's son-in-law or
11 brother-in-law.
12 Q. Perhaps brother-in-law? Would that be
13 correct? It's the sister of Milan Simic's wife who is
14 married to Mr. Jankovic; isn't that correct?
15 A. Aco's sister is married to Mr. Simic.
16 Q. Mr. Jankovic's sister is married to Milan
17 Simic; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Are you aware of what Mr. Jankovic did during
20 the years of the war in 1992, before you started
21 working for him in 1993? Did he have another job
22 besides working at the cafe?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Were you aware that there was a period of
25 time when Mr. Jankovic was the bodyguard for Blagoje
Page 591
1 Simic?
2 MR. HAYNES: What has this got to do with
3 anything?
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Paterson, what's the
5 relevance of this?
6 MS. PATERSON: I think it's highly
7 significant, that there is a close relationship between
8 Milan Simic and the owner of this cafe bar where
9 Ms. Marosevic works. I am just trying to explore the
10 extent of that relationship, the reasons why there
11 might be some connection between all these people.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Go ahead.
13 MS. PATERSON:
14 Q. Could you answer that question,
15 Mr. Marosevic --
16 MR. HAYNES: That question is about Blagoje
17 Simic, who is a different person.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.
19 MS. PATERSON:
20 Q. One more time. Were you aware that
21 Mr. Jankovic for a period of time worked as the
22 bodyguard for Blagoje Simic?
23 A. No. Not as far as I know.
24 Q. But you know who I am referring to when I say
25 Blagoje Simic; the man who used to be the mayor of
Page 592
1 Bosanski Samac?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, you said that you worked for a period of
4 time in the municipality building, is that correct,
5 before you started working in the cafe?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And that's how you first met Mr. Simic; is
8 that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So you would have also met Blagoje Simic, I
11 assume, since he also worked in the municipality; is
12 that not true?
13 A. I knew Mr. Blagoje from before the war.
14 Q. Working in the municipality building, did you
15 also meet Mr. Todorovic, Mr. Zaric and Mr. Tadic back
16 in 1992 and '93?
17 A. Mr. Zaric, I knew from before the war.
18 Mr. Tadic, I also knew from before the war. I met
19 Mr. Todorovic during the war.
20 Q. Now, you said during your direct examination
21 that you met Milan Simic when you were making coffee at
22 the municipality building. Could you explain in a bit
23 more detail the kind of relationship you have with
24 Milan Simic?
25 A. We are friends.
Page 593
1 Q. Would you consider yourself good friends?
2 A. Well, yes.
3 Q. Did you spend a lot of time with Mr. Simic
4 when he was in Bosanski Samac? Were you spending time
5 with he and his wife?
6 A. Not much time, but we would see each other.
7 Q. But you testified that you made some efforts
8 to help Milan Simic in this case before the Court, to
9 try and locate witnesses that might testify on his
10 behalf. Isn't that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And why is it that you are making this
13 special effort for Mr. Simic, to help him find these
14 witnesses, to assist him in this way?
15 A. Milan is a friend of mine. Why not?
16 Q. Now, you described earlier in your testimony
17 the relationship that you had with Mirsad Sahanic and
18 the man we are referring to as Mr. Agnes. Now, you met
19 them both approximately, you said, I think, about six
20 weeks before the war broke out on the 17th of April
21 1992; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And during that time you got to become, shall
24 we say, the boyfriend of Mirsad Sahanic? Would that be
25 a fair description of your relationship? Girlfriend.
Page 594
1 I'm sorry.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So during those six weeks you would go out
4 occasionally to the coffee bars, the discos, spend time
5 together; is that right?
6 A. Yes, every day.
7 Q. Well, at some point, I assume, Mr. Sahanic
8 was working? He was working as an active policeman at
9 the time, wasn't he?
10 A. Yes. Yes.
11 Q. And he was responsible for protecting the
12 bridge across the river? That was a very important
13 link from Bosnian to Croatia? He had a very important
14 job, didn't he?
15 A. I don't know exactly what he was doing. I
16 know he was working in the police. What he was
17 guarding, I don't know.
18 Q. You spent almost every day with him, but he
19 never told you what he was doing; is that what you are
20 saying?
21 A. Yes, that's what I am saying.
22 Q. But would it be fair to say that you had come
23 to become quite fond of Mirsad Sahanic, that you cared
24 a great deal about him?
25 A. Yes.
Page 595
1 Q. If the war had not broken out and he had not
2 been arrested, is it fair to say you would have
3 continued your relationship?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So you cared a great deal about Mirsad and
6 what was happening to him; did you not?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Particularly, after the war broke out, when
9 you found out that he was being detained in one of the
10 detention camps, you were concerned for his welfare,
11 weren't you?
12 A. Yes, I was sorry.
13 Q. You yourself had been detained for a period
14 of time, so you knew what it was like to be detained in
15 these camps, didn't you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And your father was also detained for several
18 months, under very difficult conditions, wasn't he?
19 A. For three months, yes.
20 Q. And your father was being detained in camps
21 being run by the Serbs who were controlling Bosanski
22 Samac at the time; isn't that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And would it be fair to say that during those
25 six weeks before the war broke out, you had also become
Page 596
1 good friends with Mr. Agnes, not in a romantic way, but
2 good friends nonetheless?
3 A. Yes. Yes.
4 Q. And you also cared about his welfare and what
5 was happening to him when he was detained in the camps;
6 isn't that right?
7 A. Yes. Yes.
8 Q. Now, when Mr. Haynes asked you about the
9 night that the war broke out in Bosanski Samac, which
10 was, I believe, the night between the 16th and 17th of
11 April 1992, you said you were at home that night; isn't
12 that correct?
13 A. No. We were in the disco that night. We
14 were in the disco.
15 Q. Yes, but you didn't stay out the entire
16 night, did you? At some point in time you went home
17 and went to sleep, I assume?
18 A. Yes. Yes. Around 9.00.
19 Q. And you went to your own home where you
20 stayed with your father? You did not go with Mirsad
21 back to the hotel and spend the night with him in the
22 hotel, did you?
23 A. No. I went to my own home.
24 Q. And when the war broke out, when the fighting
25 broke out, it was pretty obvious, wasn't it? There was
Page 597
1 a lot of shooting going on, there was some shelling,
2 there was a lot of confusion in the streets? You knew
3 immediately that something was wrong, didn't you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, you've stated that about 4.00 that
6 morning, when the fighting started, that Mr. Agnes and
7 Mirsad appeared at your house, dressed in uniform, with
8 guns, and that they led you and your family to a
9 shelter; is that right?
10 A. Yes, Mirsad was in uniform. And Mr. Agnes
11 only had a bulletproof vest and a rifle.
12 Q. So it's your testimony that as soon as the
13 war broke out, literally within minutes, within the
14 first hour after the fighting had started, the very
15 first thing they did was jumped into uniform, grabbed
16 their guns and ran to your house; is that what you are
17 saying?
18 A. Yes, that is how it was. They came to my
19 place.
20 Q. So when both Mr. Agnes and Mr. Sahanic say
21 no, that wasn't their first concern, their first
22 concern was for their own security, to find shelter
23 within the hotel, they would be incorrect?
24 A. I don't know. But they came to my place.
25 Q. Are you aware of the fact that both Mr. Agnes
Page 598
1 and Mirsad were arrested that very day that you claim
2 they came and led you to the shelter?
3 A. They came the next day, in the morning, to
4 see me in the shelter, and after that, I didn't see
5 them again. I didn't know that they had been arrested
6 immediately.
7 Q. But that's what they testified to here
8 before, so there's no reason to question the fact that
9 as far as you know, that when they say they were
10 arrested that day, they're telling the truth?
11 A. I don't know. I know what happened when they
12 came to see me.
13 Q. Now, you said that you stayed in the shelter,
14 you estimated, for maybe as much as 20 days after the
15 war broke out; is that correct?
16 A. Some ten days.
17 Q. Ten days, not 20 days. I think you
18 testified --
19 A. I said ten. I said ten.
20 Q. Maybe that was my misunderstanding.
21 So then you said that the next time you saw
22 Mirsad, he was in the TO, the Territorial Defence
23 building; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you know when that was? Was that still in
Page 599
1 April, or was it in May? Do you recall?
2 A. I think it was in May, in May.
3 Q. You're pretty sure it was sometime in May,
4 sometime after the 1st of May, perhaps?
5 A. Well, I can't be quite sure, but I think it
6 was in May.
7 Q. Well, are you aware that Mirsad, Mr. Agnes,
8 and several other men that were detained in the
9 Territorial Defence building were transferred to Brcko
10 at the end of April, and that they were not even in the
11 Territorial Defence building in May?
12 A. I know they went somewhere, but I don't know
13 where, and I cannot remember exactly when. I don't
14 know whether it was Brcko.
15 Q. Okay. Now, you said that on one occasion,
16 one or two occasions, you took them a change of
17 clothing and some food; is that right?
18 A. I took Mirsad the change of clothing, yes,
19 and some food.
20 Q. And was that when they were detained at the
21 TO, or at the primary school building?
22 A. Once to the Territorial Defence, and another
23 time to the primary school building.
24 Q. Okay. And again, these detention camps were
25 being guarded by Serb guards, were they not?
Page 600
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So you had to get permission from the guards
3 to be able to give these sandwiches to Mirsad and to
4 Mr. Agnes?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And the primary school is right next door to
7 the secondary school, where your father was being
8 detained; is that not correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, I believe in the statement that you gave
11 in June, you said that -- and I'll read from the
12 statement, from the English translation: "I saw Mirsad
13 and Mr. Agnes again at the elementary school building
14 about ten days after." This means ten days after you
15 learned that they had been arrested. "I was bringing
16 them food every day. Sometimes I would deliver the
17 food to them personally and sometimes through the
18 guards. That lasted until July or August 1992, when
19 Mirsad was exchanged."
20 Now, you just told me that you only took them
21 food once, so you didn't take them food every day, as
22 you said in your statement, you just took them once; is
23 that correct?
24 A. Once to the TO, and later on, when they were
25 in the primary school, or elementary school, I would go
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Page 602
1 to take them food frequently.
2 Q. Maybe I should actually read the paragraph
3 that precedes that, because it's referring to that time
4 at the TO. You said that you learned from Gojko
5 Ostojic that your boyfriend Mirsad was detained at the
6 TO building; is that correct? Is that who you found
7 out --
8 A. Yes. Yes.
9 Q. "About ten days after, Gojko took me to see
10 Mirsad. I spoke to him on that occasion, and he took
11 me to bring him some things to change his clothes. The
12 next day when I took some clothes and food to Mirsad, I
13 saw Mr. Agnes too." Is that all correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And then the next line is, "I saw Mirsad and
16 Mr. Agnes again at the elementary school building about
17 ten days after." So this implies this was ten days
18 after you had seen them in the TO building. Is that
19 correct, that sequence of events?
20 A. Well, I can't remember exactly when, after
21 how many days, but I do know ...
22 Q. Okay. Are you aware of the fact that from
23 April until approximately the end of May or the
24 beginning of June, both Mirsad and Mr. Agnes were
25 detained in Brcko and Bijeljina, Ugljevik, and other
Page 603
1 locations before they were ultimately returned to
2 Bosanski Samac --
3 MR. HAYNES: Hang on a minute. They called
4 Mirsad Sahanic, who confirmed the stories about food
5 being taken to him. You can't impugn your own witness
6 like this.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Continue, Ms. Paterson.
8 MS. PATERSON:
9 Q. My point is, are you aware that Mr. Agnes and
10 Mirsad were out of Bosanski Samac for almost six weeks
11 from the time you saw them in the TO before they were
12 returned to the primary school?
13 A. Yes, I had heard, but I don't know exactly
14 how long they were away. I can't remember the period
15 of time, exactly how long it was.
16 Q. And as you said in your statement, did you
17 bring them food every day, or just one time when they
18 were at the primary school you brought them food?
19 A. Yes, I would take them food frequently.
20 Q. And you said you continued to take them food
21 until July or August 1992, when Mirsad was exchanged;
22 is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, this is Mirsad, the man who you
25 considered your boyfriend, who you've just said you
Page 604
1 cared a great deal about; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You were paying attention to what was
4 happening to him, how he was being treated; you were
5 concerned about his condition, weren't you?
6 A. Well, I couldn't do anything about it there.
7 I was sorry.
8 Q. Well, I'm not implying that there is anything
9 that you could do. I realise there was nothing you
10 could do. I'm just trying to confirm that you cared a
11 lot about Mirsad and were trying to stay in touch with
12 what was happening to him; isn't that right?
13 A. Yes, as far as I was able to.
14 Q. So this man that you cared about, when you
15 say he was released in July or August of 1992, would
16 you be surprised to learn that in fact he was released
17 in November of 1992? Not July or August, but November,
18 several months later?
19 A. Well, as I say, I can't quite remember when
20 it was. It was thereabouts. A lot of time has gone
21 by.
22 Q. So what happened after July and August? You
23 just stopped seeing Mirsad, you stopped taking him
24 food, you didn't care any more about what happened to
25 him? From August to November, that was it; you didn't
Page 605
1 go see him again?
2 A. No.
3 Q. But that's what you say in your statement, so
4 this part of your statement, then, is not correct?
5 A. Well, I didn't see him after that. When he
6 was exchanged, of course I didn't see him after he was
7 exchanged.
8 Q. No, that's not what I'm saying,
9 Ms. Marosevic. I'm saying before he was exchanged. He
10 was exchanged on the 5th of November. You said he was
11 exchanged on July or August. You sort of have
12 overlooked September and October, when he was still
13 detained.
14 A. Well, I said I can't remember exactly the
15 month when he left, but I do know that up until that
16 time, I did go and visit him.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think you must move to
18 another point now, Ms. Paterson.
19 MS. PATERSON: Yes, Your Honour.
20 Q. Now, you said that you never had contact with
21 Mirsad Sahanic after he was exchanged in November 1992;
22 is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So you never had contact until you spoke to
25 him on the telephone in 1998; is that right?
Page 606
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, this is the man that you've just told us
3 was your boyfriend and you cared so much about. You
4 made no attempts, then, between 1992 and 1988 [sic] to
5 get in touch with Mirsad, to find out what happened to
6 him after he left?
7 A. Well, it was war. There was no possibility
8 of doing so.
9 Q. Well, it was war, but many people were
10 concerned about their friends and relatives and went to
11 great lengths to find out what had happened to them.
12 You did not try to find out what had happened to
13 Mirsad, did you?
14 A. I didn't know where he had gone.
15 Q. Okay. Now, you said on your direct
16 examination that you did, in fact, make a few phone
17 calls to Mirsad Sahanic in 1998 and 1999; is that
18 correct?
19 A. Yes, myself and Mr. Agnes.
20 Q. But I took time over the weekend to read
21 through your statement several times, and nowhere in
22 these five pages do I find any reference to the fact
23 that you had phone calls with Mirsad, all these phone
24 calls with Mirsad, except one reference to the fact
25 that Mr. Agnes had told you he was talking to Mirsad,
Page 607
1 but not that you had had any contact with Mirsad. Is
2 there a reason why you left that out of the statement?
3 A. No, quite simply -- well --
4 Q. You just didn't think it was important for
5 anybody to know that you had made all these phone calls
6 to Mirsad?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, Mirsad insists that it wasn't just two
9 or three phone calls, as you said, but he's said there
10 were many, many phone calls over the months, and that,
11 in fact, it became a problem that you were calling so
12 many times. Is Mirsad not telling us the truth about
13 that?
14 A. I called a couple of times. I don't know how
15 many times exactly, but not once, not twice, several
16 times. But exactly how many times, I don't know.
17 Q. And you said that you were actually the one
18 who gave Mirsad's phone number to Mr. Agnes; isn't that
19 correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you got Mirsad's phone number by going to
22 Tuzla and talking to his mother and getting that phone
23 number from his mother; isn't that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And when you went to Tuzla, you even went to
Page 608
1 the local police and asked their assistance to help you
2 locate Mirsad; isn't that right?
3 A. Yes, I asked for the address, where he was.
4 Q. And this was well before Mr. Agnes ever even
5 expressed an interest in getting in touch with Mirsad,
6 wasn't it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So you just coincidentally, out of the blue,
9 in the summer of 1998, this man you haven't seen since
10 1992, you don't know what happened to him, you don't
11 even know if he is alive or dead, all of a sudden you
12 decide to go to Tuzla, look up his mother, go to the
13 police, and look up his address and phone number? Is
14 that what you're saying?
15 A. I asked around where he was, and through a
16 friend in Sarajevo, I learned that he was in Tuzla, and
17 then I went to Tuzla to look for him.
18 Q. Why were you so intent on finding Mirsad?
19 A. Well --
20 Q. You just thought of him again one day, hadn't
21 thought of him in several years and just thought, "Boy,
22 I'd like to get in touch with Mirsad"?
23 A. Well, not like that. I was thinking about him
24 all the time, but I didn't have occasion to go there
25 and to find him.
Page 609
1 Q. But when you went to Tuzla and spoke to his
2 mother, his mother informed you that he was married and
3 had children, didn't she?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In fact, you even saw pictures of he and his
6 wife and children, didn't you?
7 A. Yes, with children, yes.
8 Q. But despite the fact that he was married,
9 obviously had a new relationship, you still were quite
10 intent on getting in touch with him, weren't you?
11 A. Yes. Why not?
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Paterson, I'm sorry to
13 interrupt you. How much longer will your
14 cross-examination be?
15 MS. PATERSON: Well, it will -- it won't be a
16 great deal longer, but it will probably go at least
17 another half an hour.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes, may I inquire
19 from you, what is the state of your case? How many
20 more witnesses do you have?
21 MR. HAYNES: I should have thought two.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: We're going to take the
23 adjournment now.
24 Ms. Marosevic, you will return tomorrow at
25 2.30. In the intervening time, you are warned not to
Page 610
1 discuss your evidence with anybody.
2 We take the adjournment now until 2.30,
3 hopefully in less humid conditions.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
5 5.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
6 the 30th day of November, 1999, at
7 2:30 p.m.
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