1 Tuesday, 30 November, 1999

2 [Open session]

3 [Rule 77 Hearing]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 [The witness entered court]

6 --- Upon commencing at 2.32 p.m.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Will the Registrar call the

8 case, please.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your

10 Honours. Case number IT-95-9-R77.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Paterson.

12 Ms. Marosevic, you remain subject to your solemn

13 declaration.

14 WITNESS: JASNA MAROSEVIC, Resumed

15 [Witness answers through interpreter]

16 Examined by Ms. Paterson:

17 Q. Ms. Marosevic, I have a few more questions I

18 would like to put to you today. When we stopped

19 yesterday, we had been talking about a trip that you

20 made to Tuzla to speak to the mother of Mirsad Sahanic

21 and get his phone number. Do you recall that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you recall the date that you made that

24 trip to Tuzla? Do you recall what month that was?

25 A. No, I can't remember.

1 Q. It was sometime last year in 1998; correct?

2 A. I think so, yes. At the end of '98.

3 Q. At the end of '98, you mean like November or

4 December?

5 A. I really can't remember.

6 Q. You said yesterday that you are the one that

7 gave the phone number to Mr. Agnes, so that Mr. Agnes

8 could call Mirsad. So obviously this trip to Tuzla

9 took place before Mr. Agnes called Mirsad?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did this trip take place before you

12 introduced Mr. Agnes to Mr. Avramovic, or to

13 Mr. Vukovic?

14 A. Before. Before.

15 Q. As a matter of fact, this trip to Tuzla took

16 place before Mr. Agnes had even told you, according to

17 your version, that he was willing to testify for Milan

18 Simic, didn't it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So before you had even discussed the

21 possibility with Mr. Agnes of his testifying for Milan

22 Simic, and also discuss that maybe he should call his

23 friend Mirsad, you had already gotten in your mind that

24 you should get in touch with Mirsad and get his phone

25 number, hadn't you?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. It wasn't Mr. Agnes who suggested you get in

3 touch with Mirsad; it was someone else, wasn't it?

4 A. I did myself at my own initiative.

5 Q. Now, the reason that you had to go to Tuzla

6 to get this phone number from Mirsad's mother is that,

7 obviously, Mr. Simic couldn't travel to Tuzla, could

8 he?

9 A. No.

10 Q. It probably would also be awkward for

11 Mr. Avramovic to travel to Tuzla as well, wouldn't it?

12 A. Well, we didn't talk. There was no need for

13 him to go. I asked for the number for my own benefit,

14 not because of Mr. Simic or Mr. Avramovic.

15 Q. So your getting in touch with Mirsad had

16 absolutely nothing to do with trying to get Mirsad to

17 agree to testify for Milan Simic?

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. Just a total coincidence that this came up,

20 after you had discussed it with Mr. Agnes, and

21 Mr. Agnes pointed out that perhaps Mirsad could be a

22 witness as well? Just a coincidence all this happens;

23 is that what you are saying?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, when Mirsad Sahanic testified here, he

1 told the Court that during one of your phone

2 conversations, that you had mentioned to him, if he

3 couldn't meet you in Bosnia, that you were going to be

4 travelling on a business trip to the Netherlands, and

5 perhaps you could meet at the German border. Could you

6 tell the Court what business it is that you had in the

7 Netherlands that would cause you to travel to this

8 country?

9 A. Well, I have some relatives here, and I was

10 going to go and stay with them.

11 Q. Okay. Didn't have anything to do with the

12 fact that the Tribunal is located in the Netherlands?

13 Again, just an interesting coincidence?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. Now, let's move on, then, to another

16 subject. Also during your phone conversations with

17 Mirsad, Mirsad told you that, understandably, having

18 been detained in prison camps, he was reluctant to

19 return to Bosanski Samac. He was concerned about his

20 safety. Do you recall discussing that with him on the

21 phone?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you told him, according to Mirsad, that

24 he shouldn't worry -- this is Mirsad's words -- because

25 you were in charge, and you could guarantee his safety

1 if he went to Bosanski Samac. Do you recall telling

2 him that?

3 A. Everybody was going to Bosanski Samac,

4 without any problems. So there was no need for anybody

5 to be afraid of coming to Samac.

6 Q. Everybody was going to Bosanski Samac, the

7 witnesses who are --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

9 MS. PATERSON:

10 Q. I'm sorry. You said everybody was going to

11 Bosanski Samac. I can list at least 50 or 60 people I

12 know who were prepared to come and testify here, who

13 are not going to Bosanski Samac because they are

14 concerned about their safety.

15 A. Well, some people are even going back home to

16 Bosanski Samac. I don't know why they would be

17 concerned.

18 Q. But Mirsad did express to you his own

19 concerns about his safety in not wanting to return to

20 Bosanski Samac, didn't he?

21 A. How do you mean that he did not want to go

22 back?

23 Q. Well, didn't Mirsad say something to you to

24 the effect that he had reservations about going to

25 Bosanski Samac because he didn't know if he would feel

1 safe?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And he didn't think he would feel safe

4 because during the war he had been arrested and

5 detained and beaten and otherwise mistreated, for

6 several months, so of course he didn't want to return

7 to that town, did he?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. But you told him that there was no reason to

10 be afraid, and that you could guarantee there was no

11 reason that he should be afraid; isn't that right?

12 A. Well, there wasn't any reason. I didn't say

13 that I could guarantee anything. I just said that

14 there was no reason for him to be afraid of going to

15 Bosanski Samac.

16 Q. Now, Ms. Marosevic, you also said that you

17 saw Mr. Agnes in Bosanski Samac in May of 1993, when he

18 was in the army of the Republika Srpska. Do you recall

19 that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, in your conversations with Mr. Agnes,

22 did he tell you that he had been involved in an

23 accidental shooting, where a young woman was shot when

24 his gun discharged? Did he tell you about that?

25 A. I heard that afterwards, but not from

1 Mr. Agnes.

2 Q. Well, Mr. Agnes did tell the Court about

3 that, and he explained that that happened a few weeks

4 after he joined the VRS, which was in late December,

5 1992. So in May of 1993, Mr. Agnes was in gaol in

6 Pelagicevo, on charges of shooting this young girl. So

7 how could you have seen him in Bosanski Samac in May,

8 if he was in gaol in Pelagicevo?

9 A. Because I know that my boss opened the cafe

10 in March, 1993, and two months later Mr. Agnes came.

11 Q. But, according to Mr. Agnes, and essentially

12 according as well to Mr. Haynes and the questions he

13 put to him, he was in gaol for most of 1993 and didn't

14 get out until October. So is it possible your

15 recollection of the dates is incorrect?

16 A. No. If he was in prison, he was in a

17 detention centre, pre-trial, and you stay there for 15

18 days.

19 Q. Okay. Now, you also said that at no time, so

20 far as you know, did Mr. Agnes ever meet Milan Simic.

21 Is that correct?

22 A. No, he never met him.

23 Q. But you testified earlier that it was when

24 you were having a conversation with Mr. Agnes, during

25 the course of the conversation you mentioned to him

1 Milan Simic and the fact that he was charged with

2 having committed crimes; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And during that conversation, Mr. Agnes, out

5 of the blue, volunteered that he would be willing to

6 testify for Milan Simic, didn't he? According to you.

7 A. When we spoke, he said that he knew Mr. Simic

8 from sight, by sight, and that Mr. Simic had done

9 nothing wrong, and that he would help, and he would

10 tell anybody to help him.

11 Q. And you then at some point in time told

12 Mr. Simic, "By the way, Milan, I've got a man who is

13 willing to come and testify for you; isn't that

14 great?" You probably had a conversation along those

15 lines, didn't you?

16 A. No, I asked Mr. Simic for the telephone

17 number of his lawyer, Drago Vukovic, and he gave me his

18 phone number, so that Mr. Simic had no contact at all

19 with Mr. Agnes.

20 Q. But that's not my question. You told Milan

21 Simic that Mr. Agnes was willing to testify on his

22 behalf, did you not?

23 A. Well, I don't actually remember the

24 conversation we had, exactly. Perhaps. I don't really

25 know.

1 Q. Don't you think it's something you might have

2 mentioned to Milan Simic, that you had come across a

3 person that was willing to come to The Hague and

4 testify for him?

5 A. Well, I don't know. I can't remember. Maybe

6 I did.

7 Q. Well, let's assume, then, for the sake of

8 argument, that at some point in time you told Milan

9 Simic that Mr. Agnes was willing to testify for him.

10 Wouldn't it be logical that Mr. Simic would be quite

11 grateful to Mr. Agnes and might want to meet him and

12 shake his hand and say "Thank you very much, Mr. Agnes,

13 for agreeing to testify for me"? You're saying that

14 nothing like that ever happened?

15 A. No, nothing like that happened.

16 Q. Now, you said that -- going back to this

17 first meeting that you just mentioned between

18 Mr. Vukovic and Mr. Agnes, you said that you actually

19 introduced them; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And this was at the cafe where you were

22 working?

23 A. No, it was in the Jetset Cafe.

24 Q. And was there some reason why this meeting

25 took place at the Jetset instead of the Cafe Lotos, as

1 all the other meetings had?

2 A. No, it was just by chance.

3 Q. And are you familiar with a company call Nova

4 Forma? Have you ever heard of a company by that name?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. It's a business that exists in Bosanski

7 Samac; right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And to your knowledge, did Milan Simic ever

10 have any business interests in that company?

11 A. I really can't say.

12 Q. So as far as you know, it is possible that he

13 might have had some business interests in that company?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. And just to clarify, you obviously didn't

16 spend every minute of every day with Mr. Milan Simic,

17 did you?

18 A. Well, no.

19 Q. So it's not impossible that at some point in

20 time, unbeknownst to you, Mr. Agnes might in fact have

21 had a meeting with Milan Simic, and you just didn't

22 know about it?

23 A. Well, I don't know about it. But I do

24 believe that Agnes would have told me, had he had a

25 meeting with Mr. Simic.

1 Q. Now, I asked you when you started your

2 testimony yesterday if you had ever discussed the case

3 with Mr. Avramovic, and I believe that you said you had

4 not discussed the case with Mr. Avramovic. What is the

5 correct answer to that? Have you discussed the case in

6 any detail with Mr. Avramovic?

7 A. With Mr. Avramovic, I only spoke to him when

8 he came to ask me to tell him everything I knew about

9 Mr. Agnes.

10 Q. So he did talk to you, then, about Mr. Agnes?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And he told you what Mr. Agnes had said to

13 him?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Well, how could you have a discussion about

16 Mr. Agnes, then, if he didn't tell you anything about

17 Mr. Agnes?

18 A. Mr. Avramovic came to me and asked me whether

19 I would be willing to say everything I knew about

20 Mr. Agnes.

21 Q. Okay. Well, Ms. Marosevic, I just want to

22 clarify something. Yesterday, and I'm referring to

23 page 556 of the transcript, line 22; I'm going to read

24 a question and an answer to you, Ms. Marosevic.

25 Question -- this was put to you by

1 Mr. Haynes: "Did you have a discussion with

2 Mr. Avramovic about what Mr. Agnes had told him?"

3 Your answer: "He told me, Mr. Avramovic told

4 me that he had spoken to Mr. Agnes and that he would

5 get in touch with him. I know he referred to an event,

6 that Mr. Agnes had told him that he had been travelling

7 through Samac. I found that strange because I knew

8 that he had stayed at the hotel. And I said that that

9 was not true."

10 Do you recall that question and answer?

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes?

12 MR. HAYNES: I think this question ought to

13 be clarified, because of course that question relates

14 to 1998. The question that Ms. Paterson began with was

15 a question asking this witness whether she has ever

16 discussed this case with Mr. Avramovic. So I think the

17 witness may be confused, and I think Ms. Paterson ought

18 to clarify what it is she is asking about, whether she

19 is asking about the Bosanski Samac case in general or

20 the Rule 77 proceedings.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Paterson?

22 MS. PATERSON:

23 Q. Well, Ms. Marosevic, let me ask you: Did you

24 understand my question, or do you not understand my

25 question?

1 A. No.

2 JUDGE HUNT: I would like to know, too, I'm

3 afraid, Ms. Paterson. Could we have an answer? Which

4 one are you referring to?

5 MS. PATERSON:

6 Q. Did Mr. Avramovic ever tell you any of the

7 facts that Mr. Agnes told him about what happened in

8 Bosanski Samac during the war, and particularly

9 involving Milan Simic?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did Mr. Avramovic ever tell you anything

12 about conversations he had with Mr. Agnes about any

13 subject?

14 A. Yes, he mentioned that Mr. Agnes had told him

15 that he was passing through Samac on the way to

16 Vienna. This was strange to me, because we all know in

17 Samac that Mr. Agnes lived in the hotel.

18 Q. Okay. But my point is that Mr. Avramovic, on

19 at least one occasion, discussed with you details of

20 what Mr. Agnes had told him; is that not correct?

21 A. Well, that's all he told me, what I just told

22 you.

23 Q. Now, Ms. Marosevic, I'd like to go to the

24 famous blue bag that we've seen on several occasions

25 here that Mr. Agnes admitted was his bag and which you

1 claim was left at your house when he left to come and

2 get in touch with the Tribunal. Do you know the bag

3 I'm referring to?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, you said that you found that bag in your

6 house in May of 1999; is that right? Or sometime after

7 Mr. Agnes --

8 A. Yes, yes, yes.

9 Q. And you did not turn the bag over to

10 Mr. Avramovic until September; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So for five months, that bag sat in your

13 house; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And the bag was not locked, was it? It

16 didn't have a lock on it?

17 A. No. No.

18 Q. You didn't put it in a cabinet and lock the

19 door, did you?

20 A. Well, I put it in the cupboard, but I didn't

21 lock the cupboard door.

22 Q. And obviously you're not the only person that

23 lives in your house and enters your house, are you?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. Your father lives there, your brother lives

1 there, and I imagine from time to time you have friends

2 and company that comes to visit, don't you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So it's entirely possible that any time

5 during those five months, any one of those people could

6 have come and opened that bag and taken things out, and

7 put things in, and taken them out, and put things in,

8 so there's really no way we have of knowing, other than

9 your word for it, what was in that bag when you found

10 it in May, do we?

11 A. Yes, but my friends don't go looking into my

12 cupboard for them to be able to put something in there,

13 friends that come to visit me.

14 Q. But you put something in that bag, didn't

15 you?

16 A. Yes, his towels.

17 Q. Okay. So everything that was in that bag was

18 not exactly as it was when you found it, was it? You

19 added something: You added the towels.

20 A. Yes, Agnes's towels, because everything was

21 jumbled up in the bag.

22 Q. For all we know, you added the ID card, and

23 the letter from the ICRC, and any of the other items in

24 there, you could have added or anyone else could have

25 added during that time; isn't that true?

1 A. But where would I get his army booklet from,

2 or anything else?

3 Q. Now, there's a good question, Ms. Marosevic.

4 I was going to ask you that question myself.

5 You said earlier that you agreed that a large

6 number of Croats, and for that matter Muslims, had left

7 Bosanski Samac during the war; isn't that right?

8 A. Yes, but many people stayed, too.

9 Q. Yes, but many left, and many were quite

10 desperate to get out of town, weren't they?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you wouldn't be surprised to learn that a

13 lot of those people used false identification and false

14 IDs to get out on occasion; they had to go and get

15 false IDs to get out of town? You probably know some

16 people that did that, don't you?

17 A. I don't know that.

18 Q. It probably wouldn't come as a surprise to

19 you that it's not hard at all on the black market in

20 Bosnia and Bosanski Samac to obtain false

21 identifications; that doesn't come as a surprise to

22 you, does it?

23 MR. HAYNES: We are entering into the realms

24 of fiction and moving away from the realms of the

25 evidence in this case. She says she doesn't know

1 people like that. I don't think that entitles

2 Ms. Paterson to make a speech on her knowledge of

3 general practice in Bosnia.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: I agree, Ms. Paterson; I

5 think you are going a little too far.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Why don't you put it to her

7 expressly that she put that document in the bag?

8 That's what you're really after, isn't it?

9 MS. PATERSON: Well, that and some other

10 things, Your Honour.

11 Q. But Ms. Marosevic, in answer to the Judge's

12 question, did you put that identification card in the

13 bag?

14 A. No. The army booklet was in the bag.

15 Q. Did anyone ever come and ask you to get false

16 identification for them? Mr. Agnes or anybody else?

17 A. I don't understand your question.

18 Q. At any time, did anyone -- Mr. Agnes, any of

19 your other friends or acquaintances -- ever come to you

20 and ask you to help them get false identification?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Well, did you tell Mirsad Sahanic something

23 to that effect in one of your phone conversations, that

24 Mr. Agnes had asked you to get him some false ID?

25 A. No. Mr. Agnes asked me for an ID card, how

1 he could get an ID card in Bosanski Samac, and I told

2 him that he had to register and then get the document

3 in that way.

4 Q. Okay. Well, I think Mr. Sahanic told a

5 somewhat different version of that, but I'll leave that

6 to the Judges to compare the two versions of that

7 conversation.

8 Now, Mr. Agnes, before he left your house,

9 and again I am accepting, just for the sake of

10 argument, your version of the facts, that Mr. Agnes was

11 staying at your house and left the blue bag there. I

12 don't concede that. We'll just say that for sake of

13 argument. He never told you that he was planning to

14 leave and come to get in touch with the Tribunal, did

15 he?

16 A. No, he never told me that.

17 Q. And that probably came as a big surprise to

18 you, when you found out that he had contacted the

19 Tribunal; isn't that correct?

20 A. Well, I don't know.

21 Q. You don't know?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You weren't at all surprised when you found

24 out that Mr. Agnes had contacted the Tribunal and told

25 the Tribunal that Mr. Avramovic and Mr. Simic were

1 trying to force him to testify for Mr. Simic? That

2 didn't surprise you?

3 MR. HAYNES: That's about four questions.

4 Could it be broken down, please.

5 MS. PATERSON: Gladly.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Paterson.

7 MS. PATERSON:

8 Q. Did it surprise you that Mr. Agnes came to

9 the Tribunal?

10 A. Well, I didn't think about it really much.

11 Q. Did it surprise you to learn that Mr. Agnes

12 told the Tribunal --

13 MR. HAYNES: You better establish that she

14 did learn that.

15 MS. PATERSON:

16 Q. Ms. Marosevic, do you know why we are here

17 today, the purpose of this hearing?

18 A. Yes, I am hearing it.

19 Q. No. Do you know why you are here to testify

20 before the Court?

21 A. All I know is that I have to say everything I

22 know about Mr. Agnes.

23 Q. Did anyone ever tell you that Mr. Avramovic

24 is charged with forcing, attempting to force Mr. Agnes

25 to testify on behalf of Milan Simic?

1 A. I don't remember.

2 Q. Well, do you know that or not? Did you know

3 that before you came to Court today, Ms. Marosevic?

4 Did you know what Mr. Avramovic was charged with?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you know that Mr. Milan Simic is charged

7 with trying to pressure Mr. Agnes into testifying

8 before this Court in favour of Milan Simic?

9 A. Yes. I heard that here in this courtroom.

10 Q. You didn't know that before you came to Court

11 yesterday?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When did you first find that out, that

14 Mr. Agnes had accused Milan Simic of trying to force

15 him to testify before this Court?

16 A. When I came here to The Hague.

17 Q. So why was it, then, that you took the blue

18 bag to Mr. Avramovic that Mr. Agnes left behind? What

19 interest could it have been to Mr. Avramovic?

20 A. Well, when we spoke, I mentioned the fact of

21 the bag being at my place, and Mr. Avramovic asked me

22 about the bag, and I said, "Well, if you need it, here

23 you are. Here is the bag." That's it.

24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

25 Ms. Paterson, the witness has just told us that she

1 learnt that there was pressure on the part of Milan

2 Simic on Witness Agnes, for him to testify in his

3 favour. The witness has just told us that she learned

4 that upon arriving in The Hague, that is, before

5 appearing in Court, before appearing in this Trial

6 Chamber. I should like you to ask the witness from

7 whom she learnt that.

8 MS. PATERSON:

9 Q. Ms. Marosevic, did you understand the Judge's

10 question? He would like to know who told you about

11 these charges against Milan Simic. How did you learn

12 of that?

13 A. I don't remember. In one of the

14 conversations, when we were sitting together, somebody

15 mentioned it. I don't remember exactly who it was.

16 Q. You don't remember if it was Mr. Avramovic

17 that told you?

18 A. No.

19 Q. You don't remember if it was Milan Simic that

20 told you?

21 A. I didn't see Mr. Simic until I came here

22 yesterday.

23 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] In that

24 case, Ms. Paterson, Ms. Marosevic could tell us whom

25 she saw when she arrived at The Hague, because she said

1 it was during a conversation. Who was she talking to

2 when she arrived in The Hague and before she appeared

3 in Court?

4 A. With Mr. Peter. I spoke to Mr. Peter. He

5 asked me questions, and I provided answers.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Who is Mr. Peter?

7 MS. PATERSON:

8 Q. So by "Mr. Peter," you mean Mr. Haynes, the

9 attorney for Mr. Avramovic and Mr. Simic?

10 A. Yes. Yes.

11 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Does that

12 mean that Mr. Haynes told you that there were charges

13 against Mr. Milan Simic?

14 A. I don't remember exactly who it was, but

15 somebody said it. I don't know who.

16 MS. PATERSON:

17 Q. Now, Ms. Marosevic, that military ID card

18 that you referred to that you claim you found in that

19 blue bag, are you aware of the fact -- did you take any

20 time to read that closely?

21 A. Not very closely, but I did look through it.

22 Q. And can we have the ID card, have it shown to

23 the witness, please.

24 Okay. You have that ID card in front of you,

25 Ms. Marosevic; is that correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So when you, as you claim, took it out of the

3 blue bag, did you read through the entire document?

4 MR. HAYNES: On which occasion are you

5 putting?

6 MS. PATERSON:

7 Q. Ever. Any time. The moment you took it out,

8 any time since then, have you ever read through that

9 entire document?

10 A. Not the whole document, but I did look at

11 it.

12 Q. And you looked at the first couple of pages;

13 is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you can see from those first couple of

16 pages that some things on that document have been

17 changed, can't you? It's quite obvious to anyone that

18 some things have been changed there?

19 A. It was in this condition when I found it.

20 Q. But, as you said, you didn't read through the

21 entire document, so you have no way of knowing whether

22 the information in that document is accurate and

23 correct, do you?

24 A. Yes, but I read the first and second page.

25 Q. But you didn't read the other 36 pages? You

1 explained yesterday there were 38 pages to the

2 document.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. But you are not in any position to know

5 whether the information in there is correct or not, are

6 you?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Thank you. That's the only question I have

9 about that.

10 Now, Ms. Marosevic, you said that you stayed

11 in Bosanski Samac throughout the war years and right up

12 until the present. That's correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And during that time did you stay in your

15 family apartment, the apartment that your family was

16 living in in 1992?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is that the same apartment you are still

19 living in today?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And except for that period of about seven

22 days, when you said you were detained at the beginning

23 of the war, did you live in that apartment since 1992?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you are a Croat; correct, Ms. Marosevic?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Ms. Marosevic, are you aware that there was a

3 decision issued on the 15th of May, 1992, by the

4 municipal crisis staff of Bosanski Samac, in which it

5 was ordered that all people of Croatian nationality on

6 the territory of the Serbian municipality of Bosanski

7 Samac should be isolated and taken to vital facilities

8 in the town and villages? Are you aware of that

9 decision that was issued in 1992?

10 A. I'm not aware of any such decision.

11 Q. And you weren't forced to move out of your

12 apartment, were you?

13 A. Only for those seven days while we were

14 detained. And after that we returned to our apartment.

15 Q. So all the other Croats, except for you, had

16 to move out of their houses?

17 MR. HAYNES: How can she possibly know that?

18 A. Not all of them.

19 MS. PATERSON:

20 Q. Well, are you aware that many people were

21 forced, many Croats were forced to move out of their

22 houses, were moved to villages such as Zasavica?

23 A. I don't know whether they had to, but

24 everyone didn't go.

25 Q. But a number of people did, didn't they,

1 Ms. Marosevic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you and your family didn't, did they?

4 A. No, we didn't. Nobody was forcing us to go.

5 We didn't have to go anywhere.

6 Q. And that's because you are good friends with

7 many of the people who run the town of Bosanski Samac

8 and who were running it back then; isn't that true?

9 A. No. I wouldn't have been detained for seven

10 days if that was the case. My uncle stayed as well,

11 and some other people also stayed on.

12 Q. Now, you said that you first met Milan Simic

13 when you were working in the municipality building; is

14 that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you were serving coffee there? Am I

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you explain what -- was there some sort

20 of a small restaurant or cafe there, or how did this

21 work that you served coffee in the municipality

22 building?

23 A. There was a canteen, a kitchen in the

24 municipality building, and that is where we were

25 working.

1 Q. And how did you get that job? Did you know

2 somebody that was working there, or how did you start

3 working at that position?

4 A. There were some people in Samac -- I can't

5 remember the name now. I can't remember the name

6 exactly -- and they were assigning people to various

7 posts.

8 Q. So you were assigned to work at that job?

9 A. Yes. I wanted to work somewhere.

10 Q. And did you have a choice or did you have to

11 work at that job?

12 A. No, I asked to work there. I wanted to work.

13 Q. You were not forced to work at that job, were

14 you?

15 A. No.

16 Q. But isn't it a fact, Ms. Marosevic, that

17 many, if not most, of the Croats and Muslims that

18 remained in Bosanski Samac had to do forced labour and

19 had to do other types of work?

20 MR. HAYNES: I am going to ask that you

21 direct that she doesn't answer that question. When we

22 started these proceedings, Ms. Paterson undertook that

23 the scope of the Prosecution evidence and

24 cross-examination would be limited to matters relevant

25 to the Rule 77 proceedings. Very little of what she's

1 putting is substantiated by any evidence in this case,

2 and it's simply a question of her making a series of

3 political speeches and putting them to the witness.

4 And all these matters affect the trial and indictment.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Paterson, can you

6 explain the relevance to these proceedings of that

7 question?

8 MS. PATERSON: Yes, Your Honour. I think

9 that the reason why Ms. Marosevic is cooperating with

10 Mr. Simic and Mr. Avramovic is that she's obviously

11 close friends with them, has an association with them,

12 and has received certain special privileges as a result

13 of her relationship, one of which is that, unlike many

14 of the non-Serbs in Bosanski Samac, she did not have to

15 do forced labour projects.

16 I can't change the facts. Those are the

17 facts as happened in 1992, Your Honour. I am

18 attempting, as best as possible, not to get into the

19 facts. We are not getting into any charges alleged

20 against these defendants. But that is a fact.

21 MR. HAYNES: Well, I'm afraid it's not. It's

22 not a fact in these proceedings, and if all that is

23 sought to be put to this witness is that she is a

24 friend and well connected with defendants on the

25 indictment, then all that has already been put. If the

1 Prosecution wanted to seek to establish details about

2 what happened to non-Serbs in Bosanski Samac, they

3 could have served us with drafted admissions in

4 relation to this. I don't have the case papers in the

5 trial and indictment. I don't know whether I can

6 accept any of these assertions or not. And they are

7 not relevant to whether Mr. Agnes has told us the truth

8 about contact he had with lawyers and Mr. Simic.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

10 MS. PATERSON: Your Honours, I could perhaps

11 frame the question in a different way. That might

12 solve the problem. But if you want to discuss it --

13 JUDGE HUNT: You are entitled to seek to tie

14 her in, if I may put it that way, with the people who

15 ran Bosanski Samac. You are entitled to attempt to do

16 that. And so far as you are putting that she was able

17 to work in a cafe and everything, haven't you made your

18 point? If we have to have this fact admitted, then it

19 may be better if it was put a little bit more carefully

20 than you've put it so far.

21 MS. PATERSON: If you would let me, Your

22 Honour, I will just put two more questions to her, and

23 I'll try and rephrase it in a way that should be

24 acceptable.

25 Q. Ms. Marosevic, you said that a number of

1 Croats did move to the village of Zasavica, is that

2 correct, during the war in 1992?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you ever have to go to Zasavica and work

5 in the fields and collect the food that was being grown

6 in the fields?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you ever have to go to Zasavica and kill

9 the animals and prepare food for the army?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you ever have to sweep the streets of

12 Bosanski Samac?

13 A. No. I was working in the municipality.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Paterson, the Chamber

15 feels that you have exhausted this point. Move on to

16 another point.

17 MS. PATERSON: I have no further questions,

18 Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Judge Hunt will ask some

20 questions before re-examination.

21 JUDGE HUNT: You've told us that you were not

22 friendly with --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your

24 Honour.

25 JUDGE HUNT: You told us that you were not

1 friendly with the people who ran the town of Bosanski

2 Samac, and you've also told us that you were able to

3 take food very regularly into Mirsad when he was in

4 detention. Who allowed you to do that?

5 A. The guard. Everyone could carry food. The

6 policeman who was on guard at the prison.

7 JUDGE HUNT: The policeman was the one who

8 let you in with the food; is that right?

9 A. Not inside. They would come out to the

10 steps. We would see each other for a while, and we

11 would give them food.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Did you see other people doing

13 that?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 JUDGE HUNT: How often?

16 A. I can't say exactly, but I saw some other

17 women from Samac carrying food.

18 JUDGE HUNT: I want to take you back, if I

19 may, to the blue bag. When you saw that bag at your

20 home, you immediately thought that it belonged to

21 Mr. Agnes, didn't you?

22 A. Yes. He brought it with him.

23 JUDGE HUNT: And you would have assumed,

24 would you not, that its contents belonged to him?

25 A. Yes.

1 JUDGE HUNT: Would you tell me why you were

2 so interested to read through this military book that

3 you saw inside?

4 A. Just like that, out of curiosity.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Simply curiosity; is that all?

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 JUDGE HUNT: And the other matter I wanted to

8 ask you about: You were asked a number of questions

9 yesterday afternoon as to why it was out of the blue

10 that you went to see Mirsad's mother at Tuzla. Do you

11 remember those questions?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 JUDGE HUNT: And you told Ms. Paterson that

14 you had been thinking about Mirsad all this time, it

15 wasn't just out of the blue. Do you remember that?

16 A. Yes. Yes.

17 JUDGE HUNT: What your answer was, was this:

18 "I was thinking about him all the time, but I didn't

19 have occasion to go there and to find him."

20 Do you remember giving that answer?

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE HUNT: What was the occasion that led

23 you to go on this particular -- at this particular

24 time?

25 A. A friend of mine was going with me. First I

1 went with a friend from Sarajevo, who was looking for

2 the address to inquire whether he was in Tuzla. I

3 didn't know whether he was in Tuzla. Then the friend

4 from Sarajevo checked that he was there, and then I

5 went to look for him.

6 JUDGE HUNT: This was the first that you'd

7 heard that his mother was at Tuzla, or that he was at

8 Tuzla?

9 A. His mother has a sister in Samac, and then I

10 heard from a neighbour that they may be there, and then

11 we called this gentleman in Sarajevo for him to check.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes.

13 Re-examined by Mr. Haynes:

14 Q. Just a few questions, Ms. Marosevic. Can we

15 go back to 1992, please. Can you please remind us what

16 age you were at the start of the war?

17 A. Nineteen. Eighteen, nineteen.

18 Q. And your father, what did he do for a

19 living?

20 A. He was working in Mebos, a company

21 manufacturing boilers, water heaters.

22 Q. Was he a powerful man, your father?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Has he been out of work for a number of years

25 now?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is that through his health?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Has he ever been politically active?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Now, what training had you had prior to the

7 war starting?

8 A. Catering school.

9 Q. So what sort of job were you looking for in

10 1992?

11 A. Something to do with catering.

12 Q. Did the job in the municipality building seem

13 to you a good opportunity?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And I want to be clear about this. Did your

16 family stay willingly in Bosanski Samac?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you have Croat friends still in Bosanski

19 Samac who stayed after the war?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, I want to move on to events after the

22 war started. I think we are all agreed that the war

23 started on about April the 16^th or 17^th in Samac?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, yesterday Ms. Paterson suggested to you

1 a number of things which she said arose from the

2 evidence of Mirsad Sahanic. I am going to invite you

3 to comment on what Mirsad Sahanic in fact said in his

4 evidence. So that everyone can follow this, page 187

5 of the transcript, lines 9 to 15.

6 It was suggested to you yesterday that you

7 couldn't possibly have taken food to Mirsad Sahanic in

8 the elementary school in May because he was detained in

9 Brcko at that time. In fact, his evidence is that he

10 was detained in the elementary school in May. Is it

11 your evidence that you took food to him in the

12 elementary school in May?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. It was suggested to you yesterday that having

15 obtained Mirsad's phone number, you made many, many

16 phone calls to him. In fact, his evidence, page 200,

17 is that you made four or five phone calls to him. Do

18 you think you may have made that many phone calls to

19 Mirsad, four or five?

20 A. I said that I had called him several times,

21 yes.

22 Q. Well, I want you to see if you can put a

23 number on it. I think you said yesterday, at some

24 stage, "a couple." Do you think it may have been as

25 many as four or five phone calls?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 After you got his phone number, how long was

4 it before you made the first phone call?

5 A. Quite a long time went by. I don't know

6 exactly how long.

7 Q. Well, are we talking about a few weeks, or a

8 month or so?

9 A. I really can't remember exactly, but quite

10 some time went by.

11 Q. Now, it was suggested to you yesterday by

12 Ms. Paterson that you began these phone calls in the

13 summer of 1998. In fact, when asked when the phone

14 calls were, page 207, Mirsad Sahanic said all the phone

15 calls from you were this year, 1999. Might that be

16 right?

17 A. I can't be quite sure, but ...

18 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Haynes, this is a curious

19 way of re-examination, if I may say so. I know that

20 Ms. Paterson asked the witness to comment at times upon

21 the evidence given by Mirsad; there was no objection to

22 it. But she was cross-examining. You're meant to be

23 asking non-leading questions. I cannot imagine

24 anything more leading than the nature of the questions

25 you are putting. There's been no objection to it, but

1 if you want us to place some value upon her answers,

2 may I suggest you simply ask her the questions without

3 giving her the hint of what Mirsad has already said?

4 MR. HAYNES: I'm simply seeking to create --

5 to repair questions that were asked in a wholly

6 misleading form yesterday.

7 JUDGE HUNT: But that's something that you

8 can do in address; but it doesn't help me, anyway, to

9 have evidence from the witness who is being prompted in

10 the way in which you are prompting her.

11 MR. HAYNES: Thank you. I shan't proceed any

12 further on that particular topic.

13 Q. Now, just one or two other things, please.

14 Did Agnes ever say to you that he was going to get in

15 touch with Mirsad Sahanic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. The identification pass: Do you know what

18 name Agnes was using in 1998 and 1999?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What was it?

21 A. [redacted]

22 Q. When you first saw that identification pass,

23 the army pass, what name did it have in it?

24 A. [redacted]

25 Q. The bag: It was in a cupboard. Did you see

1 it every day?

2 A. Well, yes.

3 Q. When you put the towels in, where did you put

4 them?

5 A. In the bag, and then the bag in the

6 cupboard. I zipped it up and put it in the cupboard.

7 Q. But whereabouts in the bag did you put the

8 towels?

9 A. I don't understand the question.

10 Q. Did you put them on top of the other stuff

11 that was already in there?

12 A. I had to take things and put them in order

13 and fold them up, so I don't remember exactly whether I

14 put the towels on top or not.

15 Q. When you next opened the bag, in September,

16 did it appear to be in the same state as it was when

17 you had packed it up?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. It hasn't been suggested to you, but I'm

20 going to invite you to comment: Did you put the army

21 pass in the bag at any time after Mr. Agnes left your

22 house?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you put anything else in the bag after

25 Mr. Agnes left your house?

1 A. No, except the towels.

2 Q. Thank you very much.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Marosevic, that

4 completes your testimony, and you are released.

5 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes?

8 MR. HAYNES: The next witness is

9 Mr. Avramovic.

10 MR. AVRAMOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

11 before I start my testimony, may I be heard with a

12 request, or an appeal?

13 Actually, at the last hearing, Mr. Zecevic

14 asked the Trial Chamber for the testimony of Mr. Drago

15 Vukovic, Mr. Neskovic, and my own testimony to be heard

16 in closed session, and he gave the reasons. I know

17 that such a ruling was made with reference to Mr. Drago

18 Vukovic, but I learnt yesterday that it was rejected

19 with regard to the testimony of Mr. Neskovic.

20 In view of the fact that I am the lead

21 counsel for Mr. Milan Simic and that, through my

22 testimony, I will certainly have to mention things

23 linked to the strategy of defence of Milan Simic and

24 other relevant matters which may affect the indictment

25 case, it is my view that I should draw attention to

1 this fact, that in this case, too, the same principle

2 should apply as in the contempt hearing for Mr. Vujin,

3 which was also held in closed session for the same

4 reason.

5 So I just wish to offer this additional

6 argument, hoping that I could appeal to you to

7 reconsider this request and hold the hearing in closed

8 session during my testimony.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Avramovic, I listened to

10 you and I heard you, but in actual fact,

11 representations of that kind should really be made by

12 your counsel, Mr. Haynes. We'll consider it.

13 Mr. Ryneveld, what is your view on this?

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Our position is exactly the

15 same today as it was yesterday. I might only say that

16 the issue having been brought before the Chamber

17 yesterday, and my request that you deal with the matter

18 when issues arose, it's interesting to note that

19 despite the fact that they indicated there should be a

20 blanket, no issues arose.

21 I pass that titbit of information on for the

22 Court's consideration, but our position remains

23 identical to yesterday.

24 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber will adhere to

1 the ruling that it gave yesterday. If, in the course

2 of testimony, there is an intimation that something

3 might be disclosed which would warrant a closed

4 session, a closed hearing, then the Chamber will hear

5 representations to that effect from counsel.

6 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

8 truth.

9 WITNESS: BRANISLAV AVRAMOVIC

10 [Witness answers through interpreter]

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Haynes.

12 MR. HAYNES: I wonder, before I begin

13 examining this witness, whether the Trial Chamber might

14 give me some indication of when we might take the

15 mid-afternoon adjournment, because it would assist me

16 as to --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we'll take it at about

18 4 p.m.

19 MR. HAYNES: Thank you very much. That's

20 very helpful.

21 Examined by Mr. Haynes:

22 Q. Your full name is Branislav Avramovic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I think you are 45 years of age?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. You are a married man?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You have two children?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you are an attorney at law in private

6 practice?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Have you been in private practice since 1992?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Prior to which you worked in the law since

11 1978?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I think you've been employed as a lawyer in

14 the Ministry of Internal Affairs?

15 A. Yes, you could put it that way.

16 Q. I think you've worked for the prosecutor's

17 office?

18 A. Yes, if by that you mean work within the

19 Ministry dealing with affairs relating to prosecution

20 and people committing offences within the Ministry;

21 that is to say, the employees of the Ministry. Then

22 the answer is yes.

23 Q. And I think you've been a lecturer in

24 criminal law and procedure?

25 A. Yes, I had assignments of that kind, too,

1 within the scope of my work.

2 Q. Since 1992, have you worked in an office that

3 contained three attorneys?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Have they always been the same people

6 involved in that office?

7 A. Yes, from the beginning of my own private

8 practice.

9 Q. And we heard a little about this from

10 Mr. Vukovic, but perhaps you can tell us: Is that a

11 cooperative, as it were? Do you all operate the same

12 practice, or does each of you have a separate law

13 practice?

14 A. No, we each have separate law practices, but

15 we just use the premises, the physical premises in

16 which we sit, and we each contribute to the costs. But

17 we all have separate practices with our own clients.

18 Q. I have to ask you this: Have you ever been

19 charged or convicted of any criminal offence in your

20 life?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Now, in March of 1998, did you first become

23 involved in the Bosanski Samac case?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. At whose invitation was that, and in what

1 capacity were you first involved?

2 A. At the request of Mr. Drago Vukovic, and I

3 acted as his legal assistant.

4 Q. Were you assigned to be lead counsel to

5 Mr. Milan Simic on the 7^th of October of 1998?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When you were employed as a legal

8 assistant -- that is, between March and October of

9 1998 -- can you tell us briefly what sort of work you

10 were involved in?

11 A. In the first period, I worked -- I studied

12 and read about the subject matter and problems in

13 relation to the Tribunal, the Rules of Procedure of the

14 Tribunal, because this was my first case, and it

15 demanded that I get to know the Rules of Procedure

16 better.

17 In the second phase -- that is to say from

18 May, or somewhat later on -- I took a more direct

19 involvement in preparing the defence case for Mr. Milan

20 Simic, in the sense of helping Mr. Drago Vukovic with

21 regard to some concrete tasks in the investigating

22 process and in the collection of evidence.

23 Q. It may be obvious, but who was in charge at

24 that time?

25 A. At that time, the lead counsel was Mr. Drago

1 Vukovic.

2 Q. Did you do things on your own initiative, or

3 under his direction?

4 A. No, never on my own initiative; always under

5 his directions, the directions and guidelines given me

6 by Mr. Drago Vukovic.

7 Q. Now, we know that Mr. Vukovic resigned as

8 lead counsel for Milan Simic; do you recall when you

9 first learned that he might do that?

10 A. I think it was perhaps the second half of

11 August or the first half of September, but at any rate,

12 when the indictment against Mr. Milan Simic was

13 expanded to include persecution, and when it was

14 obvious that the work of the Defence Counsel was

15 becoming more complex, with the numerous new activities

16 which emanated from this and would do so in the period

17 to come. So that is how I came to see his line of

18 reasoning. But from the beginning of September, he,

19 himself, decided to step down and to leave the defence

20 to me as counsel. Of course, Mr. Milan Simic made the

21 final decision on that.

22 Q. When did you first hear of the witness

23 Mr. Agnes?

24 A. I first heard of Witness Agnes for the first

25 time at the end of September -- or that is to say the

1 end of August; I'm sorry, or the beginning of

2 September, in one of the conversations that I had with

3 my colleague, Mr. Vukovic, because we would frequently

4 discuss the subject matter, the problems involved. But

5 I didn't have occasion to see the witness or get to

6 know him, because he had contacts with the witness.

7 In fact, Drago Vukovic conveyed to me the

8 fact that he had had a contact with -- contacts with

9 two or three individuals who, in the meantime,

10 contacted Mr. Vukovic. And Mr. Vukovic conveyed to me

11 briefly information that he received from those

12 individuals with whom he had had talks. And for two or

13 three weekends I was out of Belgrade, and, as far as I

14 was able to understand, he had these contacts with

15 these individuals in precisely that period.

16 One of those individuals was Mr. Agnes. And

17 I remember that very well because he happened to

18 mention some of his observations in that regard, and

19 told me certain facts which were, for me, rather

20 interesting. For example, he mentioned the fact that

21 it was an individual who had a dual identity, who had

22 two names; an individual who, according to what he

23 said, had been in the army of the Republika Srpska; and

24 that that particular gentleman, Mr. Agnes, had some

25 problems. He was in prison, in fact, concerning some

1 killing that occurred in a detention.

2 So that I remember all these things, and he

3 told me those facts in relation to that particular

4 individual. Whereas he himself, Mr. Vukovic, was

5 particularly interested; that is to say, he knew that I

6 knew questions related to the state of citizens. And I

7 remember that he asked me on the occasion whether it is

8 possible for a refugee from the Republika Srpska to

9 have -- go by another name; whether, according to our

10 rules and regulations, this was at all possible.

11 And I told him that this was absolutely

12 impossible, in conformity with the laws of Serbia or

13 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia which were in force

14 at the time, and that this was a fact which was quite

15 certainly, if it was done, was not done in conformity

16 with the rules and regulations.

17 Mr. Vukovic also drew my attention to other

18 details linked to this particular individual, and those

19 details referred to what he learnt from him. He told

20 me that he had had a short conversation with him and

21 that this came about via Ms. Jasna Marosevic. He told

22 me that, for the most part, his testimony referred to

23 the events in the primary school, and his claims that

24 he had never seen Mr. Milan Simic. And basically he

25 gave me a relatively negative picture of that

1 particular individual, his discussion with him, and any

2 possible future activities in this regard with respect

3 to the defence of Mr. Milan Simic and our work on the

4 Defence team.

5 In September, mid-September, when Mr. Drago

6 Vukovic decided to step down, he passed on all the

7 documents concerning the case to me, because this was

8 the stage in which I took up my role as lead counsel in

9 the case. And so with Mr. Vukovic, as I say, I took

10 all the documents he had to give me and took over the

11 contacts that I did not have. And, amongst others, I

12 remember that I talked about contacts with Mr. Agnes.

13 But he told me at the time that he did not

14 have -- he was not in touch with him because he had not

15 left him any forwarding address, but that he would

16 probably be contacting him, phoning him, and that he

17 would probably be in touch in some way, if I was

18 interested in getting to know him ultimately.

19 The reason, apart from a formal one of

20 getting in touch with him, regardless of the knowledge

21 that Mr. Vukovic had, was that I should talk to this

22 individual because, in the meantime, he could give me

23 information on a persecution that was a topical

24 subject, and one that hadn't been discussed by him with

25 Mr. Vukovic, and to give me additional information

1 linked to an identification of certain individuals who

2 had been detained in the primary school building and

3 who could be possible witnesses. According to

4 Mr. Vukovic's assessment, that Mr. Agnes did know and

5 could let us get into contact with certain individuals.

6 I had lists of individuals of this kind, and

7 this was a good occasion to have a conversation with

8 him about all of that. So in that sense our contact

9 did come about. Mr. Agnes phoned Mr. Vukovic, and

10 Mr. Vukovic agreed upon a meeting, because we had

11 already discussed this matter previously.

12 This all took place in the space of several

13 days, and it was relatively near Belgrade. It was a

14 good opportunity for me to get to meet that man.

15 Q. Can you tell us about the first occasion that

16 you met Mr. Agnes, how it was arranged, where it took

17 place, and what transpired on that occasion?

18 A. That meeting took place in the town of

19 Sremska Mitrovica on the 22^nd of September, 1998, in

20 the afternoon hours, just like according to the

21 arrangement made by Mr. Vukovic after he had

22 established contact and after having introduced me as

23 the new counsel for Mr. Simic.

24 We had agreed to meet in town across --

25 opposite the court in a sports hall, where there is

1 several coffee bars. This was easy for both of us to

2 find, and for us, because we had been to the courts.

3 And at about 2 or 3 p.m. we arrived there, as

4 agreed.

5 I remember that we had to wait for quite a

6 while for Mr. Agnes to turn up. I didn't know where he

7 lived, nor did Drago Vukovic have any information as to

8 his whereabouts, either his address or any other

9 possibility of getting in touch with him, apart from

10 waiting there, as we had agreed to do.

11 So we waited for him for almost an hour,

12 after which he turned up with a relative of his, and I

13 got to know this on the occasion, and a boy, a 10 or

14 12 year old boy, I don't know who he was, but I thought

15 at the time that it might be the son of the relation.

16 So we sat down in the coffee bar. The coffee

17 bar's name is Bingo and it is opposite the law courts.

18 We had a brief conversation, discussing general

19 subjects not related to the case. It was a general

20 sort of talk, getting to know one another.

21 And then Mr. Vukovic and myself got up with

22 Mr. Agnes and we went for a walk, a stroll in the park

23 nearby, so that we could discuss some matters linked to

24 the case; that is to say the kind of conversation that

25 Mr. Drago Vukovic had already had with him. Because we

1 didn't want to discuss these matters in front of his

2 relation and the little boy that we had met for the

3 first time that day.

4 And that's what we did. We spent -- we

5 walked around for some half an hour, or 45 minutes.

6 Drago Vukovic introduced me to Mr. Agnes. He said who

7 I was. He said that I was on the Defence team for

8 Mr. Milan Simic, that I had already been on the team

9 for some time, and that I wanted to have some talks

10 with him, and that I would like to keep in touch with

11 him. And he agreed to this. He said there was no

12 problems and that he didn't mind.

13 He gave me some of the information that he

14 gave to Mr. Drago Vukovic as well, relating to his

15 general observations and the circumstances in 1992, and

16 his whereabouts and movements in 1992; that he was

17 detained at one point, and that during his detention in

18 Brkco, Bijeljina, and then in the primary school

19 building, and that he had joined up in the army of the

20 Republika Srpska. But all this was very brief, because

21 it was not an occasion to have an in-depth conversation

22 about all of these things.

23 So at the end of that meeting we decided to

24 meet up again. This was perhaps Monday or Tuesday, and

25 we decided on a meeting the following Monday, the

1 following week. And he said that that was all right.

2 Because I said that I would like to talk to him about

3 certain things that Mr. Drago Vukovic hadn't discussed

4 with him, and if he had more information to give me.

5 He said that there was no problem and that we could go

6 -- that we could have this meeting at the house of his

7 relative. He gave me the address and told me how to

8 find the house.

9 And I found out that it was a house in the

10 village of Martinci, which is about five or six

11 kilometres away from the town of Sremska Mitrovica

12 itself.

13 We parted, and myself and Drago Vukovic

14 returned to Belgrade, whereas Mr. Agnes, with his

15 relation and that boy, went their way.

16 And that was the meeting that we held on the

17 22^nd of September in the town of Sremska Mitrovica.

18 MR. HAYNES: I am going to move on now to the

19 next meeting. I am wondering if this is a good

20 moment. This is a significant part of the case. I am

21 perfectly happy to move on to it now, but ...

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take the break now for

23 20 minutes.

24 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 4.20 p.m.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Haynes.

2 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Now, Mr. Avramovic, you've told us about the

4 meeting that took place on the 22^nd of September in

5 Sremska Mitrovica. Was that a meeting in which you

6 took any note of what Mr. Agnes had to say?

7 A. In the course of the meeting on the 22^nd, I

8 did not take any particular notes on the spot,

9 contemporaneously, but I took down the address that he

10 gave me, because it was not technically possible to

11 take notes, because most of the conversation took place

12 while we were walking around and sitting on a bench

13 very briefly in the park, so the whole conversation

14 lasted perhaps a half an hour.

15 Q. Giving you his address, did you exchange any

16 other contact details?

17 A. No, except for the address and some general

18 very brief information about the case itself, or rather

19 his knowledge linked to events in 1992, there was no

20 other discussion. The discussion centred on the matter

21 that I was taking over the defence of Milan Simic and

22 that I would like to have a lengthier discussion with

23 him on the subject of the events of 1992.

24 Q. Did Drago Vukovic have anything to do with

25 the case after that date?

1 A. After the 22^nd, Drago Vukovic in effect no

2 longer worked on the case, in terms of any contacts or

3 activities in the field. As far as I can recollect

4 that transitional period from the 22^nd of September

5 until my formal appointment as Defence counsel for

6 Milan Simic, I can't really recollect the details, but

7 I think that Drago Vukovic already then was withdrawing

8 completely from the case, and he was focussing his

9 attention on the office. If he dealt with the case at

10 all, it was in his office, until he actually formally

11 withdrew on the 7^th of October.

12 Q. Now, so far as the next meeting was

13 concerned, did you set a date on the 22^nd of September

14 for when that was going to be?

15 A. Yes. I have already said that we had fixed

16 that date at the meeting on the 22^nd. Why? Because

17 that was a Monday, and this may have been a Tuesday or

18 a Wednesday, so we said could we meet again next

19 Monday; and Mr. Agnes said there would be no problems,

20 that that suited him, that he would be at the home of

21 his relatives, and he gave me the address and explained

22 how I could get there and reach his house.

23 Q. So did you go to his house on the 28^th of

24 September?

25 A. Yes. I reserved that date for that

1 conversation in my mind, and on Monday, without any

2 announcement, as this had been arranged previously, I

3 decided to travel to the village where he was living

4 with his relatives.

5 I remember that day very well, because

6 Mr. Neskovic was in the office, and it was very lively

7 because of his impending engagement as Defence counsel

8 for Mr. Todorovic, and linked to his journey, which, as

9 far as I can remember, was to take place the very next

10 day.

11 Bearing in mind the fact that Mr. Neskovic

12 was formally the investigator in the Defence team for

13 Milan Simic, and on the other hand, not wishing to

14 travel alone to Martinci, I suggested to Mr. Neskovic

15 that we go together. He was opposed, because he was

16 preparing to leave, and he needed to do some additional

17 things in connection with his visa, and he wasn't very

18 keen regarding my suggestion that he come with me.

19 However, just before I was about to leave, I

20 saw him in the corridor and asked him once again to

21 come with me, and he agreed, but on condition that we

22 come back as quickly as possible. I told him that I

23 didn't intend to stay for long, and that I, too, wanted

24 to come home before dark -- before evening, rather.

25 Q. Did you find Mr. Agnes's address easily?

1 A. No. The problem was mainly that even though

2 there are streets with names in the village, the people

3 in the village don't know the names of their own

4 streets, so it was quite difficult to find that street,

5 and we lost quite a bit of time to get to the address.

6 Finally we arrived there, we entered the

7 yard, and as far as I remember, I saw Mr. Agnes in the

8 yard, in fact. I parked the car. He met us. I

9 introduced Mr. Neskovic to him, because he didn't know

10 him, and he led us into the house, which was 20 to 30

11 metres from the yard.

12 We sat on the terrace of the house, and his

13 relative was there, whom I had already met on the 22^nd

14 of September in Sremska Mitrovica. We sat at a table

15 and started an informal conversation. I remember that

16 well, because the conversation started in connection

17 with the arrest of Mr. Stevan Todorovic, because the

18 press had reported on it on that day, as well as the

19 other media, so that everyone was aware of this event,

20 and Mr. Neskovic said that he would be travelling to

21 The Hague in that connection.

22 This was an interesting subject because of

23 the way in which the arrest had taken place, and the

24 place, it being Serbia, and there were some comments

25 exchanged on that topic. Then we went on to another

1 topic, and I did not take part in that discussion.

2 Mr. Neskovic and Mr. Agnes's relative started talking

3 about some common acquaintances that they had from

4 Bosnia, as his relative, as I learnt from the

5 conversation, had lived for a time in Bosnia.

6 As it was clear that we were wasting time, I

7 suggested to Mr. Agnes that we go into a room where we

8 could talk alone, and he said that there was no

9 problem, he agreed, and we went into the dining room,

10 where there was a big table. And, as I said a moment

11 ago, I took with me the documentation, because I wanted

12 to discuss some facts which Drago Vukovic had not

13 discussed with Mr. Agnes, and to elucidate those facts

14 if Mr. Agnes had had any knowledge about them. So I

15 placed these documents on the table, and we started the

16 conversation.

17 Regarding the conversation itself, regarding

18 the events in the elementary school, I can say that he

19 was very brief. In actual fact, Mr. Agnes reiterated

20 to me what he had told Mr. Vukovic, that he had never

21 seen Milan Simic in the elementary school, and he

22 briefly told me about his own movements during his

23 detention and his subsequent joining the army of

24 Republika Srpska, which I had heard about at the

25 previous meeting.

1 What I was interested in, and why I wanted to

2 have this talk, was his knowledge linked to the charge

3 of persecution and facts linked to persons who were

4 detained in the elementary school. I showed him some

5 evidence that I had in my possession as Defence

6 counsel, and these had to do with persons who, in the

7 course of 1992, during their employment, had received

8 salaries, trying to learn from him whether he knew what

9 the situation was like in 1992 in the area of

10 employment for the citizens of Samac.

11 He proved to have very little knowledge about

12 it, because in that period, he had not been in Samac,

13 but was in the army, and he had no knowledge about

14 those facts. He had no knowledge about Odzaci, or some

15 other aspects of persecution, so that I quickly went on

16 to another topic which I was interested in, and that

17 was trying to get his assistance in identifying certain

18 documents which I had in my possession and which

19 contained names of persons detained at certain

20 locations in Bosanski Samac.

21 Q. Was he able to assist in that?

22 A. He was able to assist me only partially,

23 because he mainly knew the people by their nicknames

24 rather than their proper names, and the lists I had

25 were informal; I was not able to identify which people

1 had been detained in the elementary school. And that

2 is why I sought his assistance regarding those names.

3 He helped me only partially. He gave me some

4 information, but he mostly remembered people that he

5 knew in person. And then he repeated to me what Drago

6 Vukovic had already intimated, and that is that he

7 could perhaps link me up as counsel for Milan Simic

8 with those persons, because he either knew or assumed

9 he knew where they lived.

10 And it was then that he mentioned some

11 particular names. He mentioned Mirsad Sahanic; he

12 mentioned Almir or Amir from Gradacac; Senad Osad, I

13 can't remember exactly now, from Sanski Most; and he

14 told me quite openly that he could get in touch with

15 them if I was interested, and that he would try to do

16 that. I told him that for me, as Defence counsel, this

17 would be very helpful, but that I would leave it up to

18 him to decide whether he wanted to do that or not.

19 Towards the very end of that conversation,

20 Mr. Neskovic joined us. I must say he was rather

21 nervous, because time was passing and he needed to go

22 back to Belgrade. I had every understanding for him.

23 I cut short the conversation, and very shortly after

24 that, we left the house in the village of Martinci.

25 We returned to Belgrade, and our

1 conversation -- that is, my conversation with Neskovic

2 on the way down and on the way back -- mostly centred

3 on his trip to The Hague, because that was for him an

4 entirely new experience, and he wanted to hear some

5 things from me linked to the actual procedure at the

6 Tribunal, because I had already attended a couple of

7 Status Conferences that had been held in the case of

8 Mr. Simic. And we also discussed his trip, because I

9 think that was -- I think it was the first time he was

10 leaving Belgrade. I don't remember all the details,

11 however.

12 Q. Now, at the meeting on the 28^th of September,

13 did you write anything down?

14 A. Yes. It was appropriate that I do so then,

15 and concerning the actual course of the meeting, I took

16 down the substantive information conveyed to me by

17 Mr. Agnes; but regarding the events in the elementary

18 school itself, there was nothing new that I learnt in

19 relation to what I had heard from Drago Vukovic, but I

20 did take notes down on that occasion.

21 Q. In what did you record the notes?

22 A. I had my own notebook which I used in my

23 conversations with various persons I had contact with,

24 and which contained, in the order in which I had those

25 conversations, notes about those interviews with

1 witnesses, persons giving me contacts, and so on.

2 Q. Did you take a tape recorder with you to that

3 meeting?

4 A. No. I didn't have a tape recorder of any

5 kind.

6 Q. When you left the meeting of the 28^th of

7 September, what arrangements did you make for future

8 contact between you and Mr. Agnes?

9 A. We weren't specific about any arrangements.

10 We agreed that if Mr. Agnes gets in touch with the

11 persons he had mentioned, that he could call me up in

12 the office and inform me about it.

13 We didn't schedule any other meeting, nor was

14 there any need to do so.

15 Q. Now, I want to ask you just briefly, what was

16 it that he was able to say to you about his knowledge

17 of events in Bosanski Samac in 1992?

18 A. His knowledge about the events in 1992 were

19 mostly reduced to the period when he was detained in

20 the elementary school, and his trip from Samac to Brcko

21 and Bijeljina, and his return to the elementary

22 school. This was very limited information, very

23 concise. There is no detail, no scope in the

24 information, no breadth. But with respect to Milan

25 Simic, the information I received from him bore down to

1 two or three sentences, which were as follows: "I

2 never saw Milan Simic in the elementary school. I do

3 not know that Milan Simic ever came to the elementary

4 school." That is the brief information I received from

5 him.

6 Q. Was that of potential assistance to your

7 client, Milan Simic?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Why not?

10 A. His testimony was not significant. I

11 realised then that what Drago Vukovic had told me, and

12 bearing in mind what I had heard directly from

13 Mr. Agnes, his testimony was quite insignificant for

14 the defence of Milan Simic. I took the definite

15 decision about it very shortly after this meeting, only

16 a few days later; I definitely decided that this

17 meeting and this contact I had had would be used in the

18 future exclusively for any contact that he could give

19 me; that is, to use him as an informer of the Defence

20 in the future.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes, the witness said

22 that he realised then what Drago Vukovic had told him.

23 I'd like to hear what it was that he had been told

24 specifically by Vukovic.

25 MR. HAYNES:

1 Q. Yes. You've said quite a lot about this

2 already, but can you just briefly summarise what Drago

3 Vukovic said to you about this witness, Agnes?

4 A. Drago Vukovic conveyed to me his own

5 impressions about the testimony and the witness. His

6 impressions were based on a few facts regarding both

7 the contents of what he said and the personality of the

8 person. And this could be summarised as follows, what

9 Drago Vukovic told me: Dual identity; the fact that

10 while he was in the army he had committed a criminal

11 offence. At that point in time this had not been

12 proven, but he himself told us that he had been charged

13 with a murder and had been in custody on that basis.

14 Furthermore, Drago Vukovic conveyed to me his

15 personal impressions about the personality of the

16 witness, his behaviour, generally his manner. And I

17 realised that what he had said was correct, though

18 talking to me, he was absolutely willing to talk and he

19 didn't demonstrate any kind of nervousness or

20 reservations, nor did he refuse answering any of my

21 questions. But apart from the events in the school,

22 and the possibility he had of identifying certain

23 persons, he had no detailed knowledge.

24 Q. Thank you. I want to just focus your mind on

25 this: Was a witness who said that Mr. Simic had never

1 been to the elementary school, so far as he knew, any

2 use to the defence of Milan Simic?

3 A. No, he wouldn't be of any use for the

4 defence, for a very simple reason, and that is his

5 testimony is in direct contradiction with the testimony

6 of my client, because my client stated, when

7 surrendering to this Tribunal and being interviewed by

8 the Prosecution, that he was in the elementary school;

9 that on one occasion he was there.

10 Q. Thank you. So when you left on the 28^th of

11 September, did you think you might ever use him as a

12 witness?

13 A. No.

14 Q. But I think you were just saying that some

15 further event made your mind up. What was that?

16 A. Precisely. I beg your pardon, but I hastened

17 with my answer. I made up my mind about the future

18 status of Mr. Agnes immediately after that meeting.

19 This was after a trip I made to Bosanski Samac, very

20 shortly after the meeting I had with Mr. Agnes.

21 Q. Who did you meet there that affected your

22 final decision?

23 A. I have to say that I had several contacts in

24 connection with this witness in Samac itself, but the

25 person that I knew for sure knew him very well was

1 Ms. Jasna Marosevic. I knew that in a sense she had

2 connected Mr. Vukovic with Agnes, and that he was her

3 acquaintance or friend from earlier on. In a talk that

4 I had with her on that occasion, I mentioned that I had

5 had a meeting with Mr. Agnes and that I had discussed

6 with him the events of 1992. I did not convey to her

7 any details of the conversation, but I did mention that

8 in 1992 he happened to be passing through Bosanski

9 Samac. She reacted to this comment with astonishment,

10 saying, "He's lying to you. He's lying over certain

11 quite insignificant matters." "What is the truth?"

12 And she told me he was living in Samac for a month and

13 a half or more. I don't remember exactly. She had

14 known him for a month and a half or more, and she had

15 seen him on a daily basis.

16 Q. Was that the information that finally made

17 your mind up, that he was no use to you as a witness at

18 all?

19 A. No. That was not the point that made me

20 finally decide, but it was a very important point,

21 which I learnt from Ms. Jasna Marosevic, who had known

22 him well.

23 In the course of my stay in Samac, I had some

24 other contacts as well with persons who had known him.

25 In those contacts I obtained other information which

1 pointed to some facts that I had not been aware of

2 until then. Among other things, a highly relevant fact

3 is the following: He had, during his detention, while

4 in custody, was on bad terms with other persons

5 detained in the elementary school.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. I can't

8 help but -- sorry. I can't help but note that up until

9 now he has attributed the source of the information

10 upon which he relied, it was either Mr. Vukovic or

11 Jasna, but now we are suddenly faced with other

12 persons. And with respect, although I realise that

13 hearsay may be considered and given certain weight, a

14 bald assertion that other persons told me "X" certainly

15 is not the kind of evidence which, we would submit,

16 would be appropriate to be led in the manner in which

17 it's being done, and I would object to this evidence

18 being put forward in the way that it has.

19 JUDGE HUNT: But it's not hearsay. He says

20 he acted upon information given to him. It's the fact

21 that it was said, not the fact that it was true.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Well, I appreciate what Your

23 Honour is saying. However, certainly, in order for

24 there to be any weight to this evidence, there had

25 better be some indication as to the veracity of the

1 evidence, and the fact that it was said at all. Never

2 mind whether it's true.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: In any event, Mr. Ryneveld,

4 it's a matter on which you can cross-examine, and

5 ultimately it will be for us to assess the weight.

6 You can proceed now, Mr. Haynes.

7 MR. HAYNES:

8 Q. To cut matters short, what was the other

9 information you received that caused you further to

10 doubt Mr. Agnes' credibility?

11 A. It was the fact, and I repeat, that he was on

12 bad terms with detainees who were locals in Samac. He

13 was in conflict with them during detention, and that

14 there were several incidents which took place between

15 him and other detainees. Because a number of those

16 persons in the elementary school, from the elementary

17 school, are witnesses of the Prosecution. Then this

18 certainly impressed upon me the fact that such a person

19 who had, as I was told, reported on other people, was

20 highly questionable as a credible witness.

21 Of course also the event linked to the

22 killing was also a very significant factor contributing

23 to my decision, to use that person, from October

24 onwards, only if that person is ready to do so, as an

25 informer, as a person who could get me in touch with

1 other people.

2 Q. Now, after the meeting of the 28^th of

3 September, or in fact at the meeting of the 28^th of

4 September, did you make arrangements for how you would

5 get in touch with one another?

6 A. We had already exchanged our telephone

7 numbers, and I already knew his address, where he

8 lived. And the agreement was that he should call me up

9 if he had any information linked to any contacts that

10 he mentioned he would be making. And we did not make

11 any arrangements at that time. There was absolutely no

12 reason to do that.

13 Q. Did you hear from him again?

14 A. After that meeting on the 28^th that I have

15 just described, the next time I was in touch with him,

16 we heard each other and then saw each other immediately

17 after that, sometime in November, a month and a half or

18 two later, when he called me up in the office by

19 phone.

20 Q. Was that the first phone call you received

21 since the 28th of September?

22 A. Yes, it was the first phone call after the

23 28^th of September. And he asked me whether I was going

24 to Bosanski Samac. I said that I was planning to do

25 that shortly. And he asked me, when going to Bosanski

1 Samac, to drop by at his place. I never spoke to him

2 on the phone about the actual issues about the case

3 itself, and so I didn't ask him for the reasons on that

4 occasion either. And as that was one of the possible

5 routes I could take to go to Samac, I said that I would

6 come in a couple of days. And he told me, "I am

7 staying with my relatives, so drop by when you go there

8 on your way there."

9 And that is what I in fact did several days

10 later. When I was on my way to Samac, I stopped at his

11 relative's house. I found him at home. That was the

12 first time I saw and met the wife of his relative, his

13 aunt, actually. I briefly conversed with them, had a

14 cup of coffee, and left with him to the motel situated

15 in that village called the Mimoza Motel. Because he

16 suggested that we shouldn't talk there, but that we go

17 to a place, and he knew it. That was this motel in the

18 village.

19 That was for me the first time to go to that

20 facility with him. And when we got there, we had a

21 very brief conversation. And the reason and gist of

22 the whole conversation was his wish to learn from me

23 about certain things linked to witness protection in

24 the hearings in this Tribunal.

25 He explained to me, very briefly, that he had

1 told me that he would get in touch with certain

2 persons; that this was a rather delicate matter, those

3 contacts; and that people would ask him how they could

4 be protected, should they wish to get in touch with me

5 and to be potential witnesses.

6 I explained to him, very briefly, what I knew

7 about protection. We had a drink and I continued on my

8 journey after driving him back home. We said goodbye

9 and that was the meeting that we had on that occasion.

10 Q. When did you next hear from him?

11 A. After that, the next contact, telephone

12 contact, between me and him was prior to the Christmas

13 of 1998; that is to say December 1998. I am quite

14 certain of that because he told me over the phone that

15 he would perhaps be in contact with Mirsad. In fact,

16 he just told me briefly that he had had information

17 that Mirsad Sahanic was to come to Tuzla over the New

18 Year's and Christmas holidays and that he would try and

19 talk to him.

20 I said, "Okay; if you do get in touch with

21 him or talk to him, call me and tell me." And as far

22 as I recall, that conversation was very brief, too. He

23 wasn't interested in anything else.

24 He called me next time after the holidays.

25 This was in January 1999; that is to say this year.

1 And on that occasion, he just told me briefly that he

2 had not succeeded in getting in touch. He said that he

3 had information that Mr. Mirsad Sahanic did not go to

4 Tuzla as he had thought, as he had heard that he would

5 be; and I said, "Well, okay, very well; no problem

6 there." And he said, "I'll call again if I have any

7 additional information." So that was another brief

8 conversation.

9 And so, as I say, those were the two

10 telephone conversations that I had in that regard.

11 Q. Did you call him at all?

12 A. I did not call him, not a single time, right

13 up until the month of April. It was the beginning of

14 April. And once again, this came after a telephone

15 call from him to me, and I'll explain about that later

16 on.

17 The fact is that when I and Drago Vukovic

18 went to Sremska Mitrovica on the 22^nd, we were not able

19 to establish contact by phone with him; he had a mobile

20 phone which was not accessible in that particular zone,

21 so that I do know that it is practically impossible to

22 get that number when you dial it from Belgrade, because

23 it is on the borderline, the signal accessibility

24 borderline. Of course, this isn't a reason for me not

25 to phone him, had I had a reason to do so, and had I

1 needed to get some information from him.

2 Q. When was the next time that you had any sort

3 of contact with him at all after the phone call you've

4 just described early in the New Year?

5 A. The next telephone call came from him at the

6 end of March, or perhaps the beginning of April; I

7 can't quite remember, nor did I make a note of it. But

8 I know full well that it did take place, because he

9 said he was in the Republika Srpska and that the NATO

10 bombing had already started, and that he was in fact in

11 Banja Luka, staying with his relatives in Banja Luka,

12 and that he would like to see me.

13 He left me a telephone number of his

14 relatives, and he said that I could phone him to tell

15 him when I would be coming to Samac. And I told him

16 that I couldn't say exactly when I would be going,

17 because I was supposed to travel to The Hague -- that

18 is why I think it was before that journey -- but that I

19 would try and call him as soon as I had decided when I

20 would be travelling.

21 Upon my return from The Hague, I think this

22 was sometime in mid-April, I tried to phone him, but

23 when I asked for [redacted] -- which was short for

24 [redacted], and which was his nickname and the way he

25 introduced himself -- the answer I got was that that

1 individual did not exist at that address and at that

2 telephone number. And it was only when I finished the

3 conversation that I came to realise that that was a

4 mistake; that I shouldn't have asked for him by that

5 name. And I assumed that if these were some friends of

6 his, or some relations, then they probably knew him

7 under his real name.

8 So I tried several times to reach the number

9 but did not succeed, and I gave up. But immediately

10 after that, one or two days later, he phoned me. I

11 told him that I would be in Samac in the next few days,

12 and that we could have a meeting, and he said, "All

13 right. I'll be there. I'll be at the Lotos coffee

14 bar, at Jasna Marosevic's, and we can be in touch

15 through her."

16 And that's how it was. Two days later or

17 three days later, when I went to Samac, I called

18 Jasna. I went to my investigator, Mr. Spasoje --

19 Mr. Spasoje Pisarevic, the investigator, had gone to

20 Samac several days earlier, but he went on a trip. And

21 I had a meeting with him, and we left together for the

22 meeting. The meeting took place in the Lotos Cafe.

23 Jasna Marosevic was present, I myself was there, and

24 Mr. Spasoje Pisarevic was there, who was the

25 then-investigator on the Milan Simic Defence team.

1 The conversation was very short, at least

2 with respect to the conversation in the restaurant

3 itself. He was interested in knowing first of all

4 about the bombing in Serbia and how we experienced it,

5 in view of the fact that he was in the Republika

6 Srpska. So we exchanged a couple of sentences along

7 those lines, and he started telling us about his own

8 problems.

9 As there were some other people who came up

10 to us to join our table, we left the restaurant -- that

11 is to say I asked him to step outside and continue our

12 conversation out there, which he accepted, and so I

13 myself, him, and Mr. Pisarevic continued our discussion

14 during a stroll outside the restaurant.

15 We walked along a very long street, right up

16 to an embankment on the Bosna River, and on our way

17 back towards the Lotos Cafe, when we concluded our

18 conversation, he said that he would be leaving, he

19 would be going to Jasna, whereas I myself and

20 Mr. Pisarevic went to Mr. Pisarevic's office.

21 The contents and substance of that

22 conversation was expressed in percentages: 90 percent

23 of the time referred to the problems that he was

24 encountering in the Republika Srpska and whether or not

25 I could help him in solving those problems. The

1 problems were problems related to his livelihood, to

2 his existence. He complained that he didn't have a

3 job, that he didn't have an income, that he didn't have

4 any way to live, and that quite simply, he did not have

5 any money to live on, and that if possible, could I

6 help him in that respect?

7 I told him that what I could do for him was

8 to make inquiries and see if I could get him a job

9 anywhere, but that as I was not from the Republika

10 Srpska and did not know many people there, I was not

11 sure whether I would succeed. And second of all, I

12 said that I could not do anything along the lines of

13 what he had suggested.

14 The conversation then turned to what he had

15 promised me; that is to say, possible contacts,

16 potential contacts, with certain individuals. Now, why

17 I started this whole conversation was that I thought it

18 was the right opportunity to do so, because we were

19 seeing each other for the first time after a long

20 break, he had not been informing me, not told me

21 anything, and I also told him that I was ready to pay

22 for the expenses of his trips, his per diems or

23 something; if he was able to come by some potential

24 contacts, that I would reimburse him for his expenses,

25 travelling expenses or any similar expenses, in the aim

1 of establishing contacts with individuals.

2 But he was dissatisfied. He was not

3 satisfied with my answers, and he did not like the fact

4 that I was not able to help him in any way. Those are

5 my impressions, at least; that is the impression I

6 gained from that conversation that I had with him in

7 Bosanski Samac.

8 Q. How did you leave him? Was he happy?

9 A. I mentioned a moment ago that his mood was --

10 that he was depressed, and I had the impression that he

11 expected me to give him some hope, in the sense of

12 finding a job for him or making promises, helping him

13 in material, financial means, to overcome the problems

14 that he was quite obviously encountering. But when he

15 saw that my answer was -- that my answer was modest, he

16 was disappointed, disillusioned, and in a way,

17 depressed, when we parted. That was the last time we

18 saw each other and my last personal contact with him.

19 Q. Did you have any telephone contact after that

20 date?

21 A. Not up until his phone call on the 10^th of

22 May, and that phone call was recorded as a telephone

23 and is attended here in the material, and that

24 telephone took place under quite unusual circumstances

25 -- unusual for me, at any rate -- both with regard to

1 the substance of the conversation and my own

2 circumstances when this telephone conversation with him

3 took place. I can explain that if you want me to, if

4 that is necessary.

5 Q. Where did you receive the telephone call?

6 A. I received the telephone call in my office at

7 about 12 on the 10^th of May, and I recall full well

8 the substance of that telephone conversation.

9 At that particular point when the

10 telephone -- when my secretary passed the telephone

11 connection to me, I was just about to leave my office,

12 and I was getting ready for a trip to Bosanski Samac

13 with my lady colleague; we were to go to Sarajevo the

14 next day to meet my colleague, Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan,

15 who is the co-counsel, and we had arranged for me to

16 come and collect him in Sarajevo.

17 The bombing was very intense at that time,

18 and the border crossing was open until 7, whereas

19 usually at 1 or 2, the air-raid sirens sounded

20 the alarm, and I remember that I was very worried

21 whether I would be able to cross the border in time

22 before they closed the bridge, and as it was a general

23 alarm, I would have had to stop. And so that is when

24 that telephone conversation came, and as I say, I was

25 just on the point of leaving my office.

1 The substance of that conversation was quite

2 surprising for me, because for the first time, the

3 conversation turned to a subject that had not until

4 then been a subject of our conversation, his and mine.

5 I remember the conversation very well, because his

6 first or second question, straight away, was, "I need

7 money urgently. I've got nothing live on; I have

8 nothing to pay my lodgings with."

9 And as the conversation started in that vein,

10 whereas I had never discussed anything of the kind with

11 him before, I told him, without wishing to have him cut

12 off the conversation, I said, "We'll keep in touch.

13 I'm coming to Samac. Go to Jasna Marosevic's. You

14 know where her coffee bar is situated, and I'll be able

15 to find you there, and then we'll talk about those

16 questions."

17 That was the gist of our conversation, and

18 let me state once again that the conversation, both

19 with regard to the circumstances it took place in and

20 with regard to the substance, was quite different than

21 all the previous conversations that he and I had had.

22 Q. Had he ever mentioned you giving him money

23 before?

24 A. No. You mean in the telephone conversation

25 we had?

1 Q. In the previous telephone conversations or

2 any of your meetings.

3 A. No, never.

4 Q. Other than what you said about the previous

5 meeting in April, at the Lotos, had you ever talked to

6 him about giving him money?

7 A. No. Never. It was never the topic of our

8 conversations, nor did he ever ask for it, nor did I

9 ever offer him anything of the kind, nor was that ever

10 the subject of our conversations.

11 Q. Did you say in the course of that telephone

12 conversation that you would send him anything?

13 A. No. I told him, "I'll call you when I come

14 to Samac," because I was precisely leaving for Samac.

15 I was at the door of my office, leaving my office for

16 Samac at that particular point, so there was nothing

17 for me to send, so I didn't know what to send, what sum

18 of money he had in mind, and I saw no reason for that,

19 for me to send him anything by anybody, because I

20 myself was just about to leave for Samac. I was on my

21 way. And that's why I said, "I'll contact you when I

22 get to Samac, and you stay in touch with Jasna, or be

23 in the Lotos Cafe, and we'll get in touch."

24 So that was the content of my conversation

25 with Mr. Agnes.

1 Q. Just briefly, can you tell us what you were

2 involved in, working on, in May of 1999 when you

3 received this telephone call?

4 A. In May, 1999, perhaps of all the time that I

5 was involved, I worked -- I had the most work to do

6 then. One of the reasons for that was that Mr. Milan

7 Simic, on the 7^th of June, was to appear in the

8 detention unit, and I worked to prepare conditions for

9 his accommodation, and I had extensive correspondence

10 with the registry and the warden of the detention

11 centre with respect to the conditions and circumstances

12 for the accommodation of Mr. Milan Simic. And I had

13 numerous contacts in that sense as well with my

14 colleague, Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan, who was present here

15 in The Hague and who assisted me in that sense.

16 I was very worried whether Mr. Milan Simic

17 would receive the kind of conditions for accommodation

18 that I had been agreeing upon in the previous months

19 with the Registrar and the warden of the detention

20 unit. And hand in hand with that, I was also working

21 on the case itself, because this was the eleventh hour

22 for a contact with Mr. Milan Simic with respect to his

23 sojourn in Samac, to look into some facts which were

24 essential in that period in May. And the fact that at

25 that time I had a visit from my co-counsel and we

1 worked intensively on our defence in the course of that

2 month.

3 So that was the -- more or less, those were

4 my activities in May.

5 Q. When did you first learn of the allegations

6 that Mr. Agnes has made against you?

7 A. I first learnt of that, I think it was the

8 evening before the Status Conference which had been

9 called for -- I think the 9^th of June it was. And in

10 my locker -- this is how it came about -- in my locker

11 in the Tribunal building I received an ex parte motion

12 from the Prosecution referring to the subject matter

13 that you have just mentioned.

14 Q. Did you instruct your own counsel to

15 represent you in those proceedings, once you knew of

16 the allegations?

17 A. Well, when I learnt of these allegations,

18 already the next day at the Status Conference I was

19 ready to present everything that I have just said

20 before this Trial Chamber. And on the occasion at that

21 Status Conference, the Trial Chamber cautioned me and

22 said that it was the stand of the Trial Chamber that it

23 would be better not to present my views on that but to

24 prepare, in writing, a written submission. And I

25 accepted the ruling, so that I did not present my views

1 orally on that day regarding the allegations that I had

2 received the previous evening in writing.

3 I apologise. There was no question of a

4 Defence counsel that day. The question arose later

5 on. And several weeks later I decided -- I think

6 that's how it was -- to engage Mr. Morrison to assist

7 me in the proceedings which had in fact already been

8 launched at that particular Status Conference.

9 Q. And through Mr. Morrison initially, did you

10 file a response to the accusations dated the 23^rd of

11 June?

12 A. Yes. Mr. Morrison signed the response and

13 filed it with the Court on the 21^st of June. Yes.

14 That was my response.

15 Q. Now, following your instruction to

16 Mr. Morrison, did you, at his instruction, begin to

17 gather evidence for your Defence of these proceedings?

18 A. Yes. I briefly informed Mr. Morrison; that

19 is to say I told him everything, that is to say

20 everything that I have just testified here, and in

21 general terms we plotted a strategy for the gathering

22 of evidence to substantiate what I had told him.

23 We did not discuss this in detail, simply

24 because I personally considered it my right to see to

25 my own defence and to gather the necessary evidence, in

1 keeping with the ruling of the Trial Chamber which

2 followed very shortly after that.

3 Q. Now, you've heard from three witnesses for

4 the Defence in this case. Let's deal with them one by

5 one. Did you take a witness statement from Jasna

6 Marosevic?

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes, we are coming up

9 to the time for the adjournment. It's half past five.

10 MR. HAYNES: Yes.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Could you just let me know

12 how much longer your cross-examination will be? Sorry,

13 your evidence in chief, rather.

14 MR. HAYNES: Yes. I know I've fallen foul of

15 that accusation too many times in these proceedings.

16 It may well be that it would be safer to

17 adjourn now, because I may want to review whether there

18 is any tidying to be done in the morning. But it will

19 not be very long. The only item of substance will be

20 the continuity of custody of the blue bag. That is the

21 most substantial item I have left to deal with, and I

22 would have thought my examination of this witness will

23 not last more than another 10 or 15 minutes.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. We take the

25 adjournment.

1 Mr. Haynes, I am reminded, the document which

2 was the subject of discussion yesterday, entitled

3 "Witness Statement," should be tendered as an exhibit,

4 if we are to make use of it.

5 MR. HAYNES: Yes. I confess to having had my

6 attention drawn to that much earlier this afternoon,

7 and having neglected to do while Ms. Marosevic was in

8 the witness box. I do now seek to move that into

9 evidence.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Will the Registrar give it a

11 number, please.

12 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be numbered

13 D5.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Avramovic, during the

15 adjournment you are reminded not to discuss your

16 evidence with anybody.

17 Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Just two housekeeping matters,

19 if I may. In discussions with Ms. Paterson yesterday,

20 whether there was discussions about whether all of the

21 documents were to be tendered as exhibits, I believe

22 the exchange was, "Yes, I would have thought you would

23 have done that." May I actually make the formal

24 application to move all the documents that the Court

25 has had filed before it into evidence. I don't know

1 whether we in fact managed to accomplish that objective

2 yesterday, other than discussing that it would be a

3 good idea. I am now formally asking that all of the

4 documents that have been filed be made part of the

5 record and evidence which this Court, this Chamber, can

6 consider in its deliberations.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. The Registrar will see

8 to that. As a matter of tidiness, though, when the

9 Registrar does that, the Registrar should inform the

10 Chamber so that we can have an overview.

11 We take the adjournment until 2.30 tomorrow.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

13 5.31 p.m., to be reconvened on

14 Wednesday, the 1^st day of

15 December, 1999, at 2.30 p.m.

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