1 Monday, 25 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. Before I continue with the

8 examination-in-chief of the present witness, Halil Morina, I thought I

9 ought to inform the Court and my friends that, with the Court's

10 permission, we propose to change the order of the next two witnesses, to

11 reverse them. Mr. Agron Berisha, who is a specialist, a medical doctor,

12 who has been here since the beginning of this trial, is concerned to get

13 back to his patients, and so we've let the amici know of our proposed

14 change in order, so that he will follow the cross-examination of this

15 witness. So that just number 7 and 8 are being reversed. That is, with

16 the Court's permission.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

19 WITNESS: HALIL MORINA [Resumed]

20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 MR. RYNEVELD: Is it necessary to remind this witness that he's

22 still under oath? Have we done that or ...

23 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps you would like to remind him.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Thank you.

25 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld: [Continued]

1 Q. Mr. Morina, just before we start, I want to remind you, sir, that

2 you have taken a solemn declaration to tell the truth in these

3 proceedings. Do you understand that, sir?

4 A. Yes. Could you say that again, please?

5 Q. Now, Witness, last Thursday you had told us some things leading up

6 to the fact where you and your family decided to hide by a stream near

7 your house. Do you recall telling us that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And I believe you also told us that the stream was located fairly

10 close to your home, and from there, you could see what was going on; is

11 that correct?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. Sir, could you tell us what was happening to the inhabitants of

14 your village, of Landovica?

15 A. On the 26th, there was murder and the houses were burnt down.

16 Q. And the other villagers of your community -- you and your family

17 hid. What did the rest of the people who were not killed, what did they

18 do, if anything?

19 A. They left the village. Some of them remained, but part of them

20 left towards Srbica and Povjanik.

21 Q. Can you explain to the Court, if you would, please, could you

22 describe the method by which they left? Was it an organised, slow

23 arrangement or did they leave in haste, or what? How did they go?

24 A. When the firing started, there was alarm in the population.

25 Q. And what effect did that have, if any, on their departure?

1 A. There was no particular -- there was nothing particular. They

2 just left. They just went away. There was nothing particular.

3 Q. Did they have luggage with them or were they --

4 A. No, only the clothes they had on their bodies. They couldn't take

5 anything else with them.

6 Q. How much time elapsed between the beginning of the shelling and

7 the departure of the villagers?

8 A. The bomb -- the shelling was from 11.00 until 3.00.

9 Q. And when did the people start to leave?

10 A. From 9.00 until 10.00.

11 Q. Now, sir, while you were in your hiding place, can you describe to

12 us, after the shelling stopped, what happened next?

13 A. The -- the jeep, a military vehicle, came a few minutes after the

14 shelling, and I was with my brother and my -- and his wife. He came with

15 me. And there was shelling going on and firing into the air.

16 Q. You've told us on Thursday afternoon that a number of infantry

17 troops and police arrived; is that correct?

18 A. That is correct. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. Did anyone appear to be in charge of these police and soldiers?

20 A. I couldn't tell who was their chief. I saw them coming to the

21 village and setting fire to it from the Gypsy neighbourhood.

22 Q. You speak Albanian. Do you understand any Serbian?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. Did you ever, from your vantage point, hear any Serbian being

25 spoken by anyone?

1 A. Yes. I heard, when they came to set fire to my own house and to

2 the neighbouring house, speaking Serbian.

3 Q. Do you recall hearing anyone giving orders of any kind?

4 A. When they first came to shell the village, I heard them.

5 Q. Are you able to give us any particulars of what you heard?

6 A. Yes. I heard them coming.

7 Q. On Thursday, I believe you told us, and I believe you repeated it

8 again this morning, that they were killing people. Do you remember a

9 particular incident whereby people in your village were killed?

10 A. Yes. I saw them while they were burning the village. They killed

11 a Gypsy. And when they came down, they killed Avdi Gashi, an Albanian.

12 And a paralysed woman, they set fire to her in her own home.

13 Q. When those killings occurred, could you overhear anything at all?

14 A. I heard fire shots. I could hear the automatic shots.

15 Q. How long did the troops stay in your village?

16 A. Until 7.00.

17 Q. Had you and your wife and brother remained in your hiding spot

18 until that time?

19 A. We stayed about three hours, two or three hours.

20 Q. And what time did you leave your hiding spot, if at all, and where

21 did you go and why?

22 A. We left the hiding spot about 4.00. I can't be more precise.

23 Q. Where did you go?

24 A. We went to a nearby brook where the house of a neighbour was.

25 Q. Yes. What then?

1 A. Then we went to see what was happening, what had happened in the

2 neighbouring houses. Then I went -- we went to our home. We saw that it

3 was burnt.

4 Q. Your own home had been burned?

5 A. Yes. Two homes were burnt. Two Drama, two cars.

6 THE INTERPRETER: "Two Dramas," he says, "two cars."

7 A. Only the livestock remained. Everything had been razed to the

8 ground.

9 MR. RYNEVELD:

10 Q. And this is about your own personal property you're speaking

11 about?

12 A. Yes. Yes.

13 Q. When you say it was razed to the ground, were you able to occupy

14 your home any more at that point?

15 A. There was nothing left to use in my own home. In my brother's

16 home, yes.

17 Q. So where did you go?

18 A. We went to my brother's home.

19 Q. That late afternoon, early evening, did you notice the condition

20 of the mosque?

21 A. No. It was on the next day that I noticed it. On the 27th.

22 Q. All right. I assume that you and your wife and brother stayed at

23 your brother's house that night. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. Early the next morning then, sir, did you go looking around the

1 village?

2 A. Yes, I did. First I went to the neighbouring house and I saw

3 there 13 dead bodies lying on the floor. Then we went to search in other

4 houses of the village to see if there was anyone left. We didn't find

5 anyone. And then we returned back home. No: First we went to bury -- we

6 went to search for our family. Thirty-nine members they were. We didn't

7 find them. Until 11.00, we looked round in the fields, in the brook,

8 everywhere. We didn't find them. They had left for Prizren.

9 Q. Now, you say you found 13 bodies. Did you notice any other bodies

10 as you went around the town?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you know any of the bodies when they were alive?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you tell us who, if anyone, you can recall having been killed?

15 A. The day that they were killed, Ismet Gashi was the first, then his

16 mother. You have written the names in my statement: Suzana, Fatime,

17 Nikmini, one and a half years old.

18 Q. Yes, Witness. Just because you have given a statement listing

19 those names, until you tell this Court about them, the Court isn't going

20 to know, so I have to ask you the names. I can't assist you with that.

21 So please tell us. Just because it's in your statement doesn't mean that

22 we know about it until you tell us today, okay?

23 A. Now I don't remember the names. Three years have passed. Ismet

24 Gashi, Fatime, I remember.

25 Q. All right, sir. I'm not asking you to remember all of the names,

1 but you knew the people who were killed; is that correct?

2 A. Only two I didn't know. They were guests from Kukes. I didn't

3 know them by name or otherwise. The 11 others, yes.

4 Q. All right. Now, sir, as you went around the village, you earlier

5 told us that there was about 120 houses in your village before the attack;

6 is that right?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. Are you able to give an estimate to this Court as to how many of

9 those houses were destroyed as a result of this attack?

10 A. Seventy-five per cent were burned and destroyed.

11 Q. Now, I asked you earlier about the mosque. You told us you saw it

12 the next day, the 27th. We're on the 27th. Was it at this time you saw

13 the mosque or was it later?

14 A. I saw it on the 27th, at 11.00. We came from the field and went

15 back home. Then a group of soldiers came and examined the corpses, and

16 three of them went to the mosque. They entered the mosque. They had

17 white ribbons on their arms and they started to fire at the mosque, to

18 shell it. In ten minutes, I heard the explosive, a blast, and the minaret

19 fell.

20 Q. All right. Now, perhaps you could explain exactly what you saw.

21 You said they started to shell it. Can you explain to us what you saw

22 before the explosion? Describe to us what occurred.

23 A. They went there by car. They got down out of the car, they

24 entered the mosque, they placed the mine, and I heard the explosion, and

25 then I saw it toppling down. Nothing else.

1 Q. All right. So when you say "shelled," you don't mean with a tank;

2 you meant that they carried something inside? I think you said it was a

3 mine or something?

4 A. Mines. They had something -- they were carrying something in

5 their hand. No, they didn't use tanks.

6 Q. I see. All right. You had used the word "shelling," so I thought

7 I'd ask you to explain what they meant by that. They carried something

8 into the mosque; is that correct? Did the soldiers leave then?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And how long after they left the mosque did you hear the

11 explosion?

12 A. Well, ten minutes.

13 Q. And as a result of that explosion, you then saw the minaret fall

14 onto the roof of the mosque; is that right?

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. Now, when you say "soldiers," again, sir, just for sake of

17 clarification, how did these soldiers arrive? What kind of vehicles and

18 what were they wearing from which you could deduct that they in fact were

19 soldiers?

20 A. They came by Pinzgauer cars, and there was a Zastava car. Before

21 they shelled the mine, they came and examined the corpses. Then they

22 shelled the mine. They came back and borrowed a private Zastava, on which

23 they loaded the bodies of the dead people.

24 Q. All right. Now, I understand -- we'll get to that in just a

25 moment, but the purpose of my earlier question, sir, was: You've

1 described these people who arrived as soldiers. What were they wearing

2 that made you to believe that they were soldiers? Could you describe

3 their clothing for us?

4 A. The army uniforms, no other uniforms.

5 Q. All right. And these were regular army uniforms, were they, sir?

6 A. Yes. That was my impression.

7 Q. I tried this on Thursday. I don't believe I got an answer. Can

8 you tell me today, do you remember what colour those uniforms are?

9 A. The usual Serb army uniform, that colour.

10 Q. I see. All right. Now, you told us -- now, these soldiers had

11 arrived at about 11.00, I think you told us. Did they stay, or did they

12 go away and come back?

13 A. They stayed awhile, examined the bodies that were up in the house

14 on the hill, shelled the mosque, and left. Again they came at around

15 12.00.

16 Q. All right. And just so that we're clear, when you say "shelled

17 the mosque," you're now giving that expression to what you've told us

18 earlier about going into the mosque and setting off an explosion. There's

19 no additional shelling going on.

20 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.

21 Q. So at about 12.30 or so on the 27th of March, soldiers returned or

22 more soldiers arrived; is that correct?

23 JUDGE MAY: Before you leave there --

24 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Yes. Thank you.

25 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment.

1 It may be helpful, to see if we're more successful with this, to

2 know what a Pinzgauer is.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Thank you. Might I have Exhibit 17, please.

4 Might the witness be shown Exhibit 17.

5 Q. Witness, you'll recall on Thursday you were shown a series of

6 photographs - I think it was four pages with numbers - of what appear to

7 be vehicles, from 1 to 15. I would like you to look through those 15

8 photographs very carefully, and if you could, tell the Court what you mean

9 when you say a Pinzgauer, if a Pinzgauer is shown in any of these 15

10 photographs comprising the four pages of Exhibit 17.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: So just -- perhaps, Mr. Usher, you could show the

12 witness personally first before we put it on the ELMO. Just let him have

13 a look at it up close. Show him all four pages so that he can make a

14 selection.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the Pinzgauer.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: All right. The witness has selected one of the

17 photographs. I'm waiting for --

18 Q. Now, sir, you have instructed the usher to put a photograph which

19 contains 5, 6, 7, and 8. Do you see what you mean as a Pinzgauer by

20 number on this photograph? Could you tell us what number it is and point

21 to it. Could you take the pointer, Witness - thank you - and if the

22 Pinzgauer is on the set of four photographs from which you've selected --

23 A. This here.

24 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

25 A. This here. This is what I meant.

1 Q. You're pointing to what looks like number 7; is that correct?

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, he's pointed at 7.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

4 JUDGE MAY: For the record, is that a troop carrier? Would you

5 describe it as that?

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. It's a large lorry or a truck. "Troop

7 carrier," that's probably the best way to describe that.

8 Does that assist the Court? May I move on?

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you very much.

11 Q. Now, sir, you've told us that at about 12.30, soldiers returned;

12 is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And what, if anything, did you see them do when they returned at

15 12.30 on the 27th of March?

16 A. They didn't do any harm, only took away the corpses.

17 Q. And again, the people that came back at 12.30, were they again

18 army?

19 A. They were carrying light weapons.

20 Q. And were they the same kind of uniforms that you told us about

21 earlier, or different?

22 A. The same uniforms.

23 Q. Did anybody appear to be in charge?

24 A. They had a komandir. I didn't know who he was. A commander.

25 Q. Yes. And could you hear the commander give any instructions to

1 the soldiers?

2 A. They went to that house where the dead were, and I heard him

3 telling them, "Come with me. Let's go to that house where the bodies

4 are," and they went there.

5 Q. What did you see them do? Did you see them collect the bodies?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. And did they do it slowly or was there any particular method by

8 which they collected these bodies?

9 A. Very quickly. They quickly pulled out the bodies.

10 Q. All right. Now, sir, that's the 27th. The bodies were

11 collected. Did the soldiers return later that day or the next day or was

12 that it?

13 A. They didn't come back.

14 Q. Did you and your wife and brother stay in Landovica?

15 A. We stayed there until the 30th.

16 Q. 30th of March?

17 A. Yes, of March.

18 Q. And what happened after that?

19 A. Then we didn't have anything to live on, and then we went to

20 Srbica and then Skenderaj, and then we stayed there.

21 Q. You told us earlier that your -- that the villagers had fled, and

22 you were looking for members of -- the 39 members of your family. Did

23 they return at that point?

24 A. No, they did not. They went to Prizren.

25 Q. Now, you said you had nothing to live on, is that correct, back in

1 Landovica?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. And you went to Srbica?

4 A. Before going to Srbica, we let the cattle go to the pastures to

5 eat something because we didn't have anything to feed them, and then we

6 went to Srbica.

7 Q. All right. Did you find your family there?

8 A. No. No, no, I didn't.

9 Q. Where did you stay?

10 A. Srbica.

11 Q. When you got to Srbica, were there any other refugees there?

12 A. Yes. We found there about 800 inhabitants of Pirana.

13 Q. Now, this Pirana, that's the village that you told us about on

14 Thursday that was three kilometres away that had been attacked before your

15 village; is that right?

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. So those villagers left Pirana and you found them in Srbica when

18 you arrived on the 30th of March?

19 A. In Srbica, yes, Srbica.

20 Q. All right. Now, you stayed in Srbica, I take it, for some time,

21 did you?

22 A. For a while, yes. And in Srbica, there were Serbs and Albanians

23 together.

24 Q. Yes. And I take it at some point you left Srbica. How did that

25 come about?

1 A. The Albanian -- the Serb neighbours told the Albanians to get rid

2 of the HOS of the Albanians, because they might fare by being troubled,

3 and they brought buses there. In an hour, we got on the buses and went to

4 Albania. My brother went to his family in Prizren.

5 Q. Who arranged for the buses?

6 A. The Serbs.

7 Q. Did you want to leave?

8 A. What could we do? There was no other way.

9 Q. So what did you do?

10 A. We got on the buses. The police were accompanying the

11 buses -- before the buses from Podrum of Landovica to granica was -- we

12 travelled. There was a long convoy of people, with tractors, Dramas, and

13 stuff.

14 Q. Let's stop there for a moment. There were a number of buses that

15 were prepared -- they were brought by the Serbs, and who got on those

16 buses?

17 A. We Albanians, the refugees from Pirana and Landovica. We were the

18 ones.

19 Q. And did you get to choose where the buses were going to take you?

20 A. There were two or three buses.

21 Q. Let me restate my question. Did you have a choice as to where

22 these buses were going to take you?

23 A. They wanted to take us to Albania, and then we could go wherever

24 we wanted from there.

25 Q. But you were told you were being taken to Albania; is that right,

1 sir?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. En route you say you saw a convoy. Can you tell us how long that

4 convoy was that you passed with your buses?

5 A. About 25 kilometres long.

6 Q. And could you tell the ethnicity of the people that were in that

7 convoy? You've told us tractors and trailers. Were there people on foot

8 as well?

9 A. They were all Albanians.

10 Q. Were some of them on foot?

11 A. Yes, some of them were on foot. They had little wagons with them.

12 Q. In your evidence, sir, you told us earlier that the police did

13 something. I wasn't quite sure what you meant by that. What were the

14 police doing?

15 A. No, they didn't do anything.

16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Ryneveld --

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Morina, before we move -- you said that the Serbs

19 arranged for the buses. Who do you mean by "the Serbs"? Are they Serb

20 neighbours or Serb armies or Serb policemen?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They weren't -- it was not the

22 neighbours. No. They were civilians.

23 JUDGE KWON: Civilians. Thank you.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: I'll clarify that issue.

25 Q. Do you know why it was that the civilians arranged for the buses?

1 How was it that that came about?

2 A. The army gave the orders for the refugees to leave, because of

3 their neighbours. So that their neighbours wouldn't be damaged because of

4 all the bombarding, they should leave. Serb neighbours that helped the

5 Albanians because they had been living there together for so long. They

6 didn't want the Albanians to get hurt. That's why they helped.

7 Q. All right. And you say it was the Serb army that gave the orders?

8 A. I didn't see them give the order, but villagers from my village

9 told me that we have to leave because the Serbs had taken orders to get

10 rid of the refugees. They came and let us know that we had to leave the

11 village.

12 Q. I see. You've told us that you saw police along the way. Where

13 was it that you saw police?

14 A. From the entrance to Prizren, they didn't do anything up to Zhur,

15 to the buses. They just opened the way. When we arrived in Zhur, we got

16 off the buses and then we had to walk.

17 Q. And how far was Zhur from the Albanian border?

18 A. I can't be very precise. Maybe three, four, maximum five

19 kilometres. I can't be accurate.

20 Q. All right. Did you want to go to Albania?

21 A. We didn't want, but we had to.

22 Q. What happened at the border, if anything, sir?

23 A. They took away our IDs, our passports.

24 Q. How did that happen? Who took away your IDs and passports?

25 A. The police.

1 Q. Can you describe to us -- so you get to the border, and can you

2 describe what happened personally, what happened to you?

3 A. We arrived at the border. We lined up and then we handed over our

4 IDs. I handed over mine and my wife's. And then that's it. Nothing

5 happened.

6 Q. Why did you hand it over? Was it requested of you?

7 A. Yes. They asked us to.

8 Q. And what did they do with the ID, if anything?

9 A. They threw them in a pile on the ground.

10 Q. Were they ever returned to you?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Just a couple more questions, sir, before I'm through. Backing up

13 to the beginning, sir: At any time when you were in Landovica, are you

14 aware whether there had been any NATO bombing of your village?

15 A. No, there wasn't.

16 Q. Why did you leave your village?

17 A. Because the houses were burnt. Everything was burnt down. There

18 was nothing to live on. If they find that we were out in the streets,

19 they might kill us, and so we had to leave.

20 Q. Did you want to leave your village?

21 A. How could I want to leave the house? We had no other choice.

22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Morina.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: I believe I have no further questions at this

24 time.

25 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Mr. Milosevic.

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

2 Q. [Interpretation] You said at the very outset that Landovica is a

3 purely Albanian village, that there are no Serbs in it.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Later on, at the insistence of the Prosecutor, you corrected

6 yourself, and you said that there were a few Romany houses too.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. According to the information I have, Landovica was a village that

9 was half Albanian, half Romany. Is that right?

10 A. No. That's not true.

11 Q. Percentage-wise, how many Romany were there?

12 A. There were 20 houses in all who were Roma.

13 Q. Do you live in Landovica nowadays?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Where are those Roma now?

16 A. Some of them are in the village, and some of them are not there

17 any more.

18 Q. How many of them are there in the village now?

19 A. Half of them are there, and half of them are gone.

20 Q. You said that on the 26th, you were watching from the hills and

21 you saw Pirana, the village of Pirana, being burned.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And that Pirana is three kilometres away from your house or,

24 rather, from that hill.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. On that morning, when were you on the hill?

2 A. I would ask the Judges to give me permission to talk. I -- I have

3 someone from Pirana who has five children, and we went to get the children

4 so they wouldn't be killed. And we went down the road to Srbica, and then

5 we took the children with us, all of them, by car. And that's where we

6 saw it.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Answer the question, Mr. Morina. The question

8 was: "On that morning, when were you on the hill?" Can you tell us

9 approximately what time you were on the hill that morning?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About 9.00.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. And when you got off the hill, then you went down to collect these

14 relatives from Pirana; right?

15 A. The children, yes, children.

16 Q. How much time do you need to descend from the hill to your house?

17 A. Five or six minutes.

18 Q. Could you see from the hill that Pirana was burned?

19 A. On that day, it was -- part of it had been burnt. Part of it, not

20 all.

21 Q. But what did you see from the hill?

22 A. I saw smoke and flames.

23 Q. And you came to the conclusion on that basis that Pirana was on

24 fire?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Did somebody tell you that?

2 A. No. No, no one did.

3 Q. On that hill, when you were up there to watch, were there any

4 military men there?

5 A. With all the smoke and the flames, you couldn't see anyone at all,

6 neither military people nor civilians.

7 Q. I'm talking about the hill that you were on.

8 A. We were alone there.

9 Q. But on the hill there was the army.

10 A. No. No, nowhere.

11 Q. When you collected these relatives from Srbica, where did you go?

12 A. Back home.

13 Q. What did you do with your relatives?

14 A. They were not relatives. They were my children, my wife and my

15 children. And there was an uncle there. At an uncle's -- an uncle's

16 house.

17 Q. You are talking about peasants from Srbica, from Pirana, that they

18 were down there and that you went to collect them. That's what you said

19 awhile ago.

20 A. We went to Pirana to fetch the children, but they were not in

21 Pirana. They had left Pirana and had gone to Srbica. That's why we went

22 to Srbica. I took five of my nephews, along with my daughter-in-law.

23 Q. Are you talking about the village of Gornja Srbica, or is it Donja

24 Srbica?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And what is the distance between Landovica and Donja Srbica?

2 A. About two, three kilometres. I can't be so precise.

3 Q. Did I understand you correctly? From the hill, you descended to

4 Donja Srbica, and you picked up your acquaintances and relatives; is that

5 right?

6 A. From the hill, I went home. I got my car to go to Pirana first.

7 And they told me, "Don't go to Pirana. There is nobody there. Your

8 children, your grandchildren are in Srbica." That's why we were there.

9 Q. And how long did you spend in Srbica?

10 A. Two, three minutes. Just picked up the children and left.

11 Q. And you went back home?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Were all these children with you at home?

14 A. Yes, they were all at home.

15 Q. And you were not watching what was going on outside?

16 A. Nothing. No, I didn't.

17 Q. And how much time did you spend in the house with the children

18 before you heard the shooting?

19 A. Five minutes. Then I heard the shooting.

20 Q. However, five minutes before that, when you walked into the house,

21 you did not see anyone; right?

22 A. No, I didn't see anything.

23 Q. So at 9.00, you were on the hill, and from the hill you saw that

24 Pirana was on fire. You are claiming that there were no military men on

25 the hill. And then -- let me just see whether I have understood correctly

1 what you have said. Then you went home, took the car, went to Donja

2 Srbica, picked up your children. You say that Donja Srbica is three, four

3 kilometres away. You picked up your children, you returned from Donja

4 Srbica to your house, and then you did not see anything; and then, five

5 minutes later, you heard shooting. And everything you described happened

6 within one hour. Isn't that -- is that right?

7 A. Please allow me to explain. Pirana was burnt on the 25th, one day

8 before us, before our village. So everything happened on the 25th. On

9 the 26th, then they started to burn our village.

10 JUDGE MAY: That, in fact, was his evidence when he was giving

11 evidence on Thursday.

12 THE ACCUSED [Interpretation] During the examination-in-chief, I

13 heard that he came home from the hill, that he saw from the hill that

14 Pirana was on fire, that he came home, and that at 10.00 he heard

15 shooting.

16 JUDGE MAY: No. His evidence was that on the 25th, he saw the

17 village on fire from the hill, and then on the 26th, the incident happened

18 in Landovica itself when there was the shooting.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. And when were you in Donja Srbica; on the 25th or the 26th?

21 A. On the 25th.

22 Q. A minute ago, you said that with your children, you came from

23 Donja Srbica five minutes before the shooting started. You came to your

24 house five minutes before the shooting started.

25 A. It's my mistake. Maybe I didn't give you the right date or the

1 date for that. I should have given the date.

2 Q. Yes. But I asked you how much time you spent in the house with

3 your children, whom you brought from Donja Srbica, before the shooting

4 started, and your answer was that the shooting started five minutes upon

5 your entry into the house, when you came back from Donja Srbica with your

6 children?

7 JUDGE MAY: He said that that was a mistake.

8 Which day, Mr. Morina, so we have it right, which day was the

9 shooting on in the village?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What is the aim? On the 26th.

11 JUDGE MAY: So on the 26th there was the shooting. Mr. Milosevic,

12 I think we'll save time if we move on to the 26th, unless there's anything

13 else you want to ask about the 25th.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do have something else to ask.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Since it is clear that things do not seem to match here, the

17 question is: When did you bring your children from Donja Srbica to your

18 house? On the 25th or on the 26th?

19 A. On the 25th.

20 Q. How could the shooting start five minutes later, then?

21 JUDGE MAY: No. He's answered that question. Let's move on from

22 there.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He answered that he did not say the

24 truth.

25 JUDGE MAY: You can comment on that in due course. Now, let's

1 move on.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Did you hear that on the 25th - that is to say, the day when you

4 say that part of Pirana was set on fire - did you hear that on the 25th,

5 NATO had hit the gasoline station Fatani, in the village of Pirana?

6 A. No. I don't know.

7 Q. And do you know the gasoline station Fatani, in Pirana?

8 A. Yes. Yes, I know that.

9 Q. On the 25th, when NATO was bombing, they hit the gasoline station

10 Fatani and this caused a fire. Nobody told you anything about that?

11 A. No. I don't know anything about that.

12 Q. A few minutes ago, you said that all the time while you were in

13 Landovica and in Srbica, you did not hear anything about NATO bombing;

14 isn't that right?

15 A. No, I didn't hear anything about it, no.

16 Q. And you did not see airplanes or bombings of any of the grounds

17 near your village all the while while you were there?

18 A. I didn't see anything, no. I was at home and didn't see anything.

19 Q. Do you know that from the 24th of March until the end of March,

20 the time that you were there, NATO bombed the area in which your village

21 is located, as well as Prizren and the environs, several times a day? Do

22 you know about that or not?

23 A. For Prizren, I know, but I didn't see it myself. I know about

24 it. I hadn't -- I didn't see it directly myself, and I can't tell if I

25 didn't see it myself.

1 Q. But you heard the bombing, I assume.

2 A. To tell you the truth, I didn't hear it, no.

3 Q. You didn't hear the bombing either?

4 A. No.

5 Q. All right. Let's go back to the 26th, then.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, let me clarify something. I

7 believe in answer to a question that you asked, he said that he didn't see

8 it himself - that's the bombing - but he had heard of the bombing.

9 Is that right?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's exact. That's exact.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: From whom did you hear? From whom did you hear

12 about the bombing?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't tell who was doing the

14 bombing, whether it was from NATO or from the Yugoslav side. There was

15 bombing, but I didn't really see it with my own eyes.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did somebody tell you about the bombing?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Continue, Mr. Milosevic.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. You said that in Landovica it was calm on that particular day when

21 the four soldiers entered the village.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And then suddenly you heard shooting?

24 A. I heard shooting when we were in the house eating, having a meal.

25 Q. Where were those four soldiers when you heard the shooting?

1 A. They were in the centre of the village; descended down the

2 mountain, went to the centre of the village. I didn't see them either

3 alive or dead with my own eyes.

4 Q. Is there a shop in the centre of the village?

5 A. There was a small shop.

6 Q. Did the soldiers go to the shop?

7 A. I can't lie. I didn't see anything.

8 Q. But you thought about it, because you're talking about it now.

9 A. I don't understand what you mean. Can you repeat the question,

10 please?

11 Q. You said you didn't see, but you're talking about an event which

12 you didn't see, so I can only assume that you gave the matter some

13 thought, as you're telling us about it now.

14 A. I see what happened. I'm telling you about what I saw, the damage

15 inflicted on us.

16 Q. I'm asking you about your opinion. What, in your opinion, was the

17 reason -- what do you think the reason was that members of the KLA began

18 shooting at those four soldiers? Why did they do that, do you think?

19 A. There were no KLA soldiers in our village.

20 Q. Who did the shooting? Who shot at the soldiers, then?

21 A. The person who got killed.

22 Q. You said that a civilian was killed in the centre of the village

23 on the occasion and that his name was Hajim Gashi.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you now claim that that civilian shot at those four soldiers?

1 A. I told you: I didn't see them either alive or dead, but I heard

2 that he killed them.

3 Q. And they killed him?

4 A. That's right, yes.

5 Q. So you say that nobody else did the shooting, just the man who got

6 killed himself?

7 A. I'm telling you again: I didn't see it with my own eyes. I don't

8 like to lie. That's not my habit. Since I didn't see or hear anything, I

9 heard he was killed, and that's it.

10 Q. And that three out of the four soldiers were killed; you heard

11 that too, did you?

12 A. Yes, I heard.

13 Q. But you heard the shooting?

14 A. No, I didn't.

15 Q. You didn't even hear the shooting?

16 A. We didn't hear the shooting either, no. Because I told you: We

17 were at home. All our family was eating then. We were at home. We

18 didn't hear anything.

19 Q. How far is your house from the centre of the village?

20 A. About one kilometre and a half. I can't be precise.

21 Q. And from one and a half kilometres away, you weren't able to hear

22 the shooting?

23 A. No. You can hear the shots, but the television was on, the

24 children were there. We were a lot of people at home. There was a lot of

25 noise. Even if there was a cannon, I wouldn't hear, not a rifle shot.

1 Q. Later on, did you learn, later on, from which houses they opened

2 fire on the soldiers?

3 A. You mean those who got killed or the other soldiers?

4 Q. At those who were killed.

5 A. They were killed there in the middle of the village. I told you.

6 Q. Yes. But where -- did you happen to learn where the shooting came

7 from? From which houses did the shooting come when they were killed?

8 A. The houses of Tahir Berisha. But I don't know how true that is

9 that they fired from that house. I didn't see anything myself.

10 Q. Apart from the shooting that was done from Berisha's house, did

11 you happen to hear of any other house from where the shooting came?

12 A. What can I tell you? I think I am telling you the truth. We were

13 eating, having our lunch.

14 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Morina, there's no need to repeat what you've

15 said. If you didn't -- if you know of any other house from which there

16 was shooting or you heard of any other house from which there was

17 shooting, just say so. If you haven't heard of any other house, just say

18 you haven't.

19 Is that right? You haven't heard of any other house?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't hear of any other house.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Do you know the name of any -- of the other people who owned

23 houses in the centre of the village?

24 A. There are several houses in the centre of the village.

25 Q. And it was -- the shooting only came from Berisha's house; is that

1 right?

2 JUDGE MAY: That's what he said, as far as he knows or as far as

3 he was told. Yes.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. You said that there were no members of the KLA in the village.

6 A. No, there weren't. Even if there were, they would have left.

7 They would have told the people to leave. We didn't have any KLA soldiers

8 in our village.

9 Q. That means that this KLA group came to Landovica from some other

10 village. What village did that group come to Landovica from?

11 JUDGE MAY: He's said that they didn't have any KLA in the

12 village. Now, that's his evidence. If you dispute it, Mr. Milosevic, you

13 can call evidence of your own on the subject, but there's no point arguing

14 it.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm asking him whether he knows

16 where they came to Landovica from, and that's quite a legitimate question,

17 Mr. May.

18 JUDGE MAY: It's not when he has said that there weren't any.

19 Now, if you want to make a point about the shooting, of course you can,

20 but he says that there were no KLA in the village. Now, there's no point

21 then asking him where they came from when he said there weren't any.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, four soldiers coming to a

23 village, to a shop to buy only juice are killed by shooting from the

24 houses of that village, not by phantoms but by members of the KLA. Now, I

25 am asking where these members from the KLA came from.

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes, you can make the point as you have made it to us,

2 and you can make it in due course and you can call evidence about it, but

3 there's no point asking this witness where they came from when he says

4 there were none. Now, unless you've got a different question about that,

5 I suggest that we move on. You can ask him, if you wish, how it was --

6 yes. Go on.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Did you hear - because you say you saw nothing - did you hear that

9 when they killed the three soldiers, they went up to another one that

10 still showed signs of life and shot a round of gunfire? Did you hear

11 about that?

12 A. To tell you the truth, I did not hear anything. And in the

13 evening, my family left the house and took to the mountain. If I heard

14 anything, I would have left also with the others.

15 Q. But did you hear that after they had killed those soldiers, they

16 covered them with an Albanian flag? Did you hear about that event?

17 A. No. To tell you the truth, no.

18 Q. How long did the fighting go on between the soldiers and the KLA

19 before the KLA entered the village?

20 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour, with respect --

21 JUDGE MAY: It's the same point. He's denied that the KLA were

22 there. You could put to him that he's wrong about that, but we can't

23 really take it any further.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said that there was no

25 heavy shelling. That's one point he made.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. And the second point which you said was that it lasted from 11.00

3 until 1500 hours. So that means from 11.00 until 3.00 in the afternoon.

4 Does that mean that the army targeted facilities from which they were

5 being shot at or does it mean something else? It lasted a full four

6 hours.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So the army targeted facilities from which they were being shot

9 at; is that right?

10 A. I'm not very clear.

11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, just a second, please.

12 Mr. Morina, I just read your statement offered by the

13 Prosecution. Did you once tell the Prosecution that the soldiers were

14 killed by KLA and you changed your statements later? Is it true?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I have never said that KLA was

16 there. I can't tell you who killed them; I didn't see it.

17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Ryneveld, could you clarify on this?

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. As I indicated in that proofing,

19 that in his original statement, there was reference to the soldiers having

20 been killed by KLA. At the proofing session, this witness indicated that

21 that was a mistake, that that was not what he said, and that's why I put

22 in the proofing session that he amended his statement during the proofing

23 session. I made it very clear so that that would not be hidden from the

24 amici, the Court, or the accused that there was a previous statement

25 wherein the witness did refer to KLA. But in that same statement, in

1 fairness to the witness, he did indicate in that statement that there were

2 no KLA in the village. So all I can conclude from that is that the

3 witness told me that that was an error when the statement was taken,

4 because consistently in that statement, later on in the same statement, he

5 said there were no KLA. So for -- but in fairness to everyone, I thought

6 I had to put in the proofing -- in the summary to the Court that that

7 happened.

8 JUDGE KWON: That's quite clear. Thank you.

9 MR. KAY: Can I just raise one matter, because it might assist

10 Your Honour Judge Kwon on the matter? The statement said that it wasn't a

11 haven for the KLA and never had been, which might be a different matter as

12 to the origination of the KLA in relation to this incident. I just raise

13 that out of completeness, the Prosecutor having raised the matter.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think, Mr. Ryneveld, we accept the explanation

17 that you have given and also what the amicus has said. You will have an

18 opportunity to re-examine. The evidence must, of course, come from the

19 witness.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: Absolutely. I might also indicate, this matter

21 having been raised by the Court, would it be of assistance to the Court

22 under these circumstances that you have the witness's entire witness

23 statement?

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: It's a matter of weight for the Court, and

1 therefore, in fairness, the Court may be assisted by having a copy of that

2 statement.

3 JUDGE MAY: I think normally it would be made an exhibit.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Then I have copies of that statement

5 here, and that's K0209157 is the ERN number, and I believe the amici and

6 the accused have got copies of the statement, of course, that having been

7 previously disclosed.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P19.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: Does that become an exhibit or not? I don't know.

10 It does?

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. You were asking about the

14 shelling on the 16th.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, and the witness has answered.

16 He said that the army shot at the houses from which they were being shot

17 at.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Now I have another question and it is this: Before, previously,

20 did you ever go into the house? And let me tell you which one I mean.

21 Across the stream, 200 metres away from the shop. That's the house I

22 mean, in which the KLA had its headquarters. So across the brook or

23 stream, 200 metres away from the shop, in the centre.

24 JUDGE MAY: Did you understand the question? What is being

25 suggested is the KLA had headquarters in the village, 200 metres from the

1 shop, and you were asked if -- well, first of all, if you agree there was

2 a headquarters, and if so, did you go there.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What headquarters? I don't

4 understand.

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, I think we're going to get no further

6 with this. Yes.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked whether he had ever gone

8 into that house which was 200 metres from the shop, across the stream, in

9 which the KLA had its headquarters. He did not give me an answer to that

10 question.

11 JUDGE MAY: He didn't understand. He denies they had the

12 headquarters. So let's move on to another question.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Did you hear -- did you happen to hear, perhaps, if you didn't

15 see, what the soldiers found in that house: maps, ammunition? What else?

16 Did you hear about that?

17 A. No, I didn't hear anything.

18 Q. Do you remember - now, you must have heard this with your own

19 ears - do you happen to remember that from the 25th until the end of

20 March, NATO bombed the area your village is located in six times? Did you

21 hear that bombing?

22 A. We didn't have any NATO bombing in our village.

23 Q. So you could neither see it from the village nor hear it from the

24 village?

25 A. There was no NATO bombing in my village. We heard on television

1 that the Landovica school was hit by NATO, but when we came to the

2 village, the school was intact. It was misinformation.

3 Q. And where, then, was the population from your village and the

4 surrounding villages fleeing?

5 A. They went to various villages before going to Albania. Half the

6 village went in the direction of Srbica, and then Petrova and Prizren. In

7 Prizren, they stayed one month.

8 Q. Were they fleeing across the Verbnice Pass?

9 A. Yes. I didn't see them, which way they took. I didn't escort

10 them.

11 Q. But you crossed the Verbnice Pass yourself. You mentioned that.

12 You didn't mention the actual pass, but you said, "From Zhur, we went on

13 to --" and most of the refugees exited through that crossing, through that

14 pass; is that right?

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. Now, we're not talking about your village, but we're talking about

17 the fleeing of the refugees from Verbnice Pass. Did you hear that some

18 members of the KLA went that way too?

19 A. I told you, I don't know anything about the KLA. They were all

20 civilians. They took to the mountains. They followed that road. I don't

21 know. I didn't see them myself. I just heard that the people passed

22 through those routes.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes. It's now 11.00. We'll adjourn for half an hour.

24 Mr. Morina, remember, again, not to speak to anybody about your

25 evidence, please, during this adjournment.

1 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. In response to the Prosecutor's question what happened with the

6 population, you answered, "Nothing in particular. They simply left." Is

7 that correct?

8 A. Yes, that's exact.

9 Q. The Prosecutor insisted that you say how much time after the

10 shelling started the villagers started to leave. You said that they left

11 before the shelling. Is that correct?

12 A. We left before. It was five, five or six minutes before the

13 shelling started that we got out, my family.

14 Q. In response to the question when people started to leave and when

15 did they leave, you answered, "Between 9.00 and 10.00," and you said that

16 the shelling started at 11.00.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How come 13 were then killed in the shelling if they left before

19 10.00 and the shelling started at 11.00?

20 A. They were at home like I was, with my family, with Ismet Gashi, a

21 lawyer, and we didn't see anything. They were -- people were all in their

22 homes.

23 Q. You spend your entire life in Landovica; right?

24 A. I stayed in Landovica from the 26th to the 30th.

25 Q. But you lived in Landovica before that for many years; right?

1 A. Yes, yes. All my life I spent there, with the exceptional time I

2 did my military service, which was two years.

3 Q. Precisely. That's just what I asked you. You spent your entire

4 life in Landovica, and you said today here this morning that you do not

5 remember a single name out of 11 of your fellow villagers for whom you

6 claim were killed.

7 A. Some I remember. I said -- the adults, yes, I remember, but the

8 young, the children, I don't remember.

9 Q. But you did not mention a single one except for Gashi.

10 A. I can tell you Ismet Gashi; his mother Fatime, the wife of my

11 cousin, was killed. Zanja, the daughter of my cousin; and the child about

12 one year and a half, two years old.

13 Q. You said, in addition to them, that one Roma were killed and one

14 Albanian. So including that Roma and that Albanian, did you see who

15 killed them?

16 A. The infantry troops killed them. When they burned the houses,

17 they also burnt two bodies inside the houses.

18 Q. Did you see who killed them, though?

19 A. No, I did not, because we saw the dead bodies on the next day.

20 Avdi Gashi, we saw him dead in his own house.

21 Q. So what did you infer? What killed them?

22 A. I think because of the killing of the four military soldiers, and

23 the police and the army burned the village and killed them.

24 Q. You did not see that, how they got killed?

25 A. No, I did not.

1 Q. You said that you left the village around 4.00.

2 A. I don't -- I'm not clear. What do you mean by "4.00"?

3 Q. Around 4.00. When you look at your watch and you see that it is

4 4.00 in the afternoon. It was my understanding that you said that you

5 left the village then.

6 A. We left on the 30th of March, around 4.00, yes.

7 Q. Yes. And immediately after that, you said that the army remained

8 in the village until 7.00.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How come you know that they stayed until 7.00 if you left at

11 4.00? Who told you that they stayed until 7.00?

12 MR. RYNEVELD: With respect, Your Honours --

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: In fairness to the witness, I believe that the

15 question, the previous question and this question are at cross-purposes.

16 I believe that the witness has referred to the 30th of March, whereas the

17 accused is now asking about the 26th of March. I just -- for

18 clarification purposes, I didn't want this to go on. In fairness, the

19 witness ought to be asked what date they're talking about.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

21 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. You said that in Landovica there were no members of the KLA, and

24 now I'm asking you whether any of the citizens of Landovica was a member

25 of the KLA.

1 A. I don't know of it. I don't know of any one of them being a KLA

2 member. Maybe there were some. I don't know. But they didn't tell me.

3 Q. And how do you explain, then, that after the war, in Landovica,

4 the monument to Boro and Ramiz was destroyed? Wasn't it destroyed?

5 A. Yes, it was.

6 Q. And what was put in place of this monument to Boro and Ramiz?

7 A. With dead soldiers of KLA.

8 Q. From Landovica?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How could a monument be built to the dead soldiers of the KLA from

11 Landovica if there weren't any in the first place?

12 A. The KLA -- I don't know. The KLA must have done that. I don't

13 know.

14 Q. Thank you. You said that the army, on the 27th, shelled the

15 mosque.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Afterwards you corrected yourself. You said that it had not

18 shelled the mosque but that an explosive device had been planted there.

19 A. The minaret fell.

20 Q. Only the minaret? If an explosive device had been placed

21 underneath the mosque, how could the minaret only have fallen?

22 JUDGE MAY: Can you answer that or not? If you can't, say so.

23 A. Yes. All of the minaret fell over the top and destroyed the top

24 of the mosque too, the roof. It is a very thick layer. It's 40

25 centimetres thick.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Very well. You said that the army, when it returned on the 27th

3 to the village, did not cause any damage to anyone.

4 A. No.

5 Q. I heard you. You said: When they returned, they did not harm

6 anyone.

7 A. No. Only on the 26th and the 27th. Nothing has happened during

8 the other days.

9 Q. Very well. Then we've clarified these dates, that when the army

10 returned, they did not cause any damage to anyone. You said that you

11 found in Srbica 800 inhabitants from Pirana.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And how many of you were there from Landovica?

14 A. Three: myself, my brother, and my wife.

15 Q. Only the three of you from Landovica?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And 800 from Pirana?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And then you said that all of you together went to Albania and

20 that there were two or three buses there.

21 A. There were more than three. Five or six.

22 Q. You said two to three.

23 A. No. Six, seven, I think. I can't be very precise. And my

24 brother went to Prizren to take care of his family and I went to Albania.

25 Q. Very well. Then two or three buses or six or seven buses. How

1 did 800 of them, together with you, fit into even six or seven buses?

2 A. But not everybody got on the buses. We were many.

3 Q. You said that these buses were organised by civilians.

4 A. Yes, but on the orders of the army, who had threatened them either

5 to get rid of us or they would be held liable. Then they came to us and

6 told us, "You have to leave Srbica, because we too will suffer."

7 Q. You said that, after that, you saw a convoy 25 kilometres long.

8 A. Yes. From Podrum of Landovica to the granica - trucks, cars,

9 trailers, a lot of people, Albanians - to the border.

10 Q. You said that they were evacuated. I'm quoting your words: They

11 evacuated them so that there would not be any damage due to the bombing,

12 so that they would not be harmed by the bombing.

13 A. I don't know what their purpose was, but I know that everybody

14 left the village.

15 Q. But the explanation that you gave that they were evacuated so that

16 there would not be any damage due to the bombing, that is your

17 explanation. How is this explanation possible if there was no bombing at

18 all?

19 JUDGE MAY: Well, that's a comment.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] All right.

21 Q. In addition to the refugees that you were watching, were there any

22 medical teams there as well who were helping people who were injured due

23 to the bombing?

24 A. There -- there were some in Prizren. Some went to Albania.

25 Q. Did you see medical teams that were helping refugees? When these

1 convoys were going, were they going by the convoys?

2 A. I didn't see anything.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, before you go on, you put to the

4 witness earlier that the explanation that he gave was that they were

5 evacuated so that there wouldn't be any damage due to the bombing,

6 presumably so that they would be safe from the bombing. When did the

7 witness give that explanation? Was it in examination-in-chief?

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, during the

9 examination-in-chief, I should say, because that's the only thing we've

10 heard here.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. I just wanted to be clear.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I assume. Or he said it during the

13 course of the morning here. But at any rate, you certainly have this on

14 the tapes, that he gave this explanation.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much. Mr. Ryneveld may want to

16 deal with that later. Thank you.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Are you aware of the activity of the dervish order in Prizren,

19 Djakovica and Orahovac?

20 A. No. I don't know anything about that.

21 Q. You've never heard of the dervish in Prizren, Djakovica, and

22 Orahovac?

23 A. I think this is empty talk. I haven't seen anything, so I can't

24 take it for granted.

25 Q. And did you hear of the establishment of Mujahedin groups related

1 to the activities of the dervish order in your area, in Prizren, for

2 example?

3 A. No, I have not.

4 Q. On which day did the refugee column start moving towards Verbnice

5 near Zhur?

6 A. We didn't have any information means. We saw convoys driving

7 along the way on the 26th, 27th of March, 28th, 30th.

8 Q. So it starts the 26th; right?

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. So from the third day of the bombing onwards.

11 JUDGE MAY: He doesn't accept and doesn't know anything about the

12 bombing, so he can't answer that question.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. You said that you recognised the army of Yugoslavia because you

15 also did your military service.

16 A. Yes. Yes. Because I did my military service 40 years ago. And

17 my four sons also did their military service in the Yugoslav army.

18 Q. Do you know how many different ethnic groups there are in the army

19 of Yugoslavia?

20 A. I don't know. I can't remember them.

21 Q. Do you know that there are Hungarians, Romanians, Bulgarians,

22 Slovaks?

23 A. Slovenes, Croats.

24 Q. Do you know about all these ethnic groups that are also members of

25 the army?

1 A. Yes, because there was unity, fraternity. There was no

2 distinction as to ethnicity or other distinction.

3 Q. All right. Now, in the army of Yugoslavia in 1998 and 1999, do

4 you know that all these different ethnic groups that I mentioned - for

5 example, Hungarians, Romanians, Bulgarians, Slovaks, Ruthenians, et cetera

6 - were also in the army of Yugoslavia?

7 A. Yes, they were. When the war broke in Croatia, my fourth son did

8 his military service in Titograd. I don't remember; 1992 it was or 1993.

9 Q. All right. I'm talking about 1998 and 1999, quite simply. So you

10 do have an idea about this, that there are different ethnic groups in the

11 army of Yugoslavia.

12 A. Yes, I know, but I've never been interested in them. I just have

13 been a farmer.

14 Q. I am asking you because I'm interested in why you call this army

15 the Serb forces.

16 A. Because only Serbia and Montenegro remained, and Vojvodina.

17 Q. But in Serbia there are 27 different ethnic groups.

18 JUDGE MAY: I think you've made the point, Mr. Milosevic. We've

19 heard it.

20 No need to answer that question.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wanted to ask you [sic] who

22 told him to call this the Serb forces, but since you won't allow that --

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Did anybody tell you to refer to the forces as

24 the Serb forces?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is how we called them, "the

1 Serb army," because everybody referred to them as the Serb army.

2 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. The vineyards of Landovica, do they belong to the enterprise of

5 Kosovovino from Mala Krusa?

6 A. Sometimes it belongs to Krusha e Mahde. We -- now we don't have

7 anything now. Nothing is left of these vineyards.

8 Q. And why is nothing left of these vineyards?

9 A. Because there is nobody to work there in those vineyards.

10 Q. Did you see these vineyards when they were bombed, those in

11 Landovica?

12 A. Yes. I have seen them after I came from Albania.

13 Q. And what do you think? Why were the vineyards bombed?

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours.

15 JUDGE MAY: Let him answer. Let him answer.

16 A. Because the army was deployed there for two years. Probably they

17 thought that soldiers are still there and they have bombed, shelled them.

18 JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Milosevic, are we going to be very much

19 longer with this witness?

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope that we won't be very long.

21 I still have a few questions to ask him. I can't tell you exactly because

22 I'm asking him straight after hearing his answers.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. I think that they bombed the vineyards, too, because they were

25 bombing the army in the vineyards. We agree on that point.

1 The Prizren area, during the war, 342 airstrikes were launched,

2 that is to say, five a day, and you claim that you never saw a single

3 airstrike or heard it.

4 JUDGE MAY: He's answered that. He said he didn't.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Not a single one of all those hundreds. Very well. Were you in

7 Prizren after the bombing of Prizren?

8 A. No.

9 Q. You weren't.

10 A. I was in Albania.

11 Q. In the bombing of Prizren, did any of your relatives lose their

12 lives or somebody who you know or somebody from Landovica? Do you know

13 anything about that? Was anybody killed that you know?

14 A. No, nobody that I know of.

15 Q. Let's go back for a moment to the day you started talking about.

16 You said that after the army entered the village, you went with your wife

17 five or six hundred metres away from the house, to see them burning the

18 houses; is that correct?

19 JUDGE MAY: We've been over this, and I don't think we can allow

20 you to go over it again, Mr. Milosevic. Now, is there anything new that

21 you want to ask the witness?

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is also a question, Mr. May.

23 JUDGE MAY: I think we've been over this thoroughly, over that

24 day. Now, if you've got nothing else, we'll conclude the

25 cross-examination.

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do have some more questions.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Do you have any knowledge whatsoever about the following: How

4 many people were killed in Landovica, Pirana, Srbica, Suva Reka, by the

5 KLA during these operations? Did you hear anything about that?

6 A. I have heard nothing, because I am not a politician and was not

7 interested to follow up developments. I was a farmer.

8 Q. All right. But among those 72 men that were killed by the KLA,

9 there were 19 Albanians and one Roma. Were you not interested in that?

10 A. No. To tell you the truth, no, I don't know.

11 Q. You don't know. Very well. Did you move along the road between

12 Srbica and Stimlje?

13 A. What did I have to do with Shtime? I did not need to go there.

14 Q. You never took the road and went between Srbica and Stimlje?

15 A. What Srbica do you mean? That of Kosova or of Prizren?

16 Q. I'm precisely referring to the Srbica you were in. Between Srbica

17 and Stimlje, do you happen to know where Klecka is along that road, where

18 the place called Klecka is, on the road between Srbica and Stimlje?

19 A. No, I don't know.

20 Q. You've never heard of Klecka?

21 A. No, never. Never heard of it. Never.

22 Q. So you didn't hear about the massacre that took place there when a

23 lot of Serbs were killed by the KLA, precisely in this place called

24 Klecka?

25 A. No, I don't know. I don't know where that Klecka is.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts. Pages 937 to 947.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 Q. All right. Very well. Do you remember that in the village of

2 Pirana - because you mentioned Pirana all the time. It's a village that

3 you make frequent reference to - in December 1998, a policeman, an

4 Albanian, was killed. His name was Xhafiqi, Imer Xhafiqi, and he was an

5 employee of the SUP and he was killed by the KLA.

6 A. Yes, I used to know him. I don't know who did that.

7 Q. In 1998, he was a policeman.

8 A. He was not a policeman. He was an employee of the SUP in

9 Prizren. He was not a policeman. He worked in the SUP.

10 Q. All right. He worked in the SUP. His name was Xhafiqi. In 1998,

11 he was an employee there, and he was killed by the KLA in that year. Do

12 you know about that, in 1998?

13 A. I know that he disappeared. I heard about that when I came from

14 Albania, but I don't know anything about his whereabouts. I don't want to

15 lie here.

16 Q. All right. Do you happen to remember when Najit Hasani, from the

17 village of Randobrava, attacked Professor Papovic, rector of the Pristina

18 university --

19 JUDGE MAY: We are getting some way from the witness's evidence in

20 chief --

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. -- the assassination attack --

23 JUDGE MAY: -- and we should get back to it, Mr. Milosevic. If

24 there's matters you want to call evidence about, you can do it and put it

25 that way in front of us.

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, the witness claims he never

2 heard anything about the activities and crimes committed by the KLA. I am

3 now asking him about a concrete crime, concrete crimes that took place in

4 the villages that he mentioned, and he would have to have been informed

5 and aware of them, and his answer that he knows nothing about them

6 represents an answer.

7 JUDGE MAY: You mustn't misrepresent the evidence. The evidence

8 about the activities of the KLA related to the 24th of March and that

9 period, and he said the KLA weren't in the village then. You can ask him,

10 but let's try and deal with this briefly, whether there was any evidence

11 of the KLA activity before that. In fact, I will ask him.

12 Mr. Morina, was there any KLA activity in your village before the

13 time you've been telling us about, the 25th of March?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, there were not, because the

15 army was close to the village, so the KLA could not come. The army was

16 deployed less than 100 metres away from the village. I had six sons, and

17 none of them was a member of KLA.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. And do you remember when the KLA killed three Albanians - Zajim

20 Turajushi [phoen], Zefe Hasani, and Seftar Shumar, as well as the Serb

21 Blagoje Jovanovic - precisely in your neighbourhood, also in 1998? Did

22 you hear about that, just like you heard about Imer Xhafiqi?

23 A. No, I didn't hear about that later. I used to know.

24 Q. All right. I'll skip over the next few questions, which related

25 to some of the things that the witness must have known, in my opinion.

1 But I don't want to pursue the point and go on with those questions,

2 because I claim that he -- I question that he does not know anything about

3 these activities.

4 Do you remember the attack on the police station, four attacks,

5 between the 7th and 15th of June, 1998, with mortars -- in July 1998,

6 between the 7th and 15th of July, in the villages around you?

7 A. No, I don't remember.

8 Q. Did you happen to see or do you happen to remember that in July

9 1999, from Prizren to Brezovica, on the road, the KLA marked all Serb

10 houses with yellow paint? Because you say you had returned by that time.

11 A. I don't remember.

12 Q. And do you know what happened to them afterwards?

13 A. No, I don't know anything.

14 Q. All right. Quite obviously you know nothing of what I'm asking

15 you.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to say -- I must say,

17 gentlemen, that you're bringing in witnesses of this kind to ill-treat me.

18 JUDGE MAY: That's a comment. Now, unless you've got some new

19 topic -- just a moment. Just a moment. You can make comments to us in

20 due course, but this isn't the moment.

21 We are going to bring this cross-examination to a close. The

22 witness says he knows nothing about the things you're putting.

23 Mr. Milosevic, you will have a chance to put your evidence in front of the

24 Chamber in due course, but it's pointless asking this witness about things

25 which he knows nothing about.

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, according to your Rules and

2 Regulations, evidence and proof for what is claimed and for what I stand

3 accused here must be presented by the Prosecution, as I understand it.

4 Evidence must be put forward by them. But I see that somebody who is not

5 guilty has to prove that he is not guilty here, and not the person that

6 claims somebody is guilty, that the burden of proof is on them. These are

7 false witnesses, Mr. May, and they are being used to pull out the pieces

8 from the mosaic of war in Yugoslavia.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have one more question, if I may.

11 You don't wish to allow me to ask him anything else.

12 JUDGE MAY: No. Just a moment, Mr. Milosevic. We must make it

13 quite plain: There's no question of you or any other accused here having

14 to prove their innocence. There is, however, a duty on the Trial Chamber

15 to ensure that trials are expeditious, and this means that time is not

16 wasted. Now, in our judgement, you have put your case very fully to this

17 witness. He said frequently that he doesn't know anything about it. It

18 is therefore pointless to continue, and time is being wasted. For that

19 reason, we're going to bring this cross-examination to a close, as we will

20 any others in which we judge time to be wasted. As we've said many times,

21 you will have the opportunity to put your evidence in front of us which

22 contradicts what the witness said.

23 Now, that concludes the cross-examination. Mr. Ryneveld, do you

24 have any questions?

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Judge May.

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] May I just say a few words to

3 clarify matters? I'll be brief.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes

5 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

6 Q. [Interpretation] As far as I was able to understand you, on that

7 day, the 26th of March, you say you don't know who shot at the soldiers,

8 and you did not see, on the 26th of March in the village before 10.00

9 a.m., a single soldier in the village; is that right?

10 A. No, I saw no soldiers of the UCK, of the KLA. There were military

11 people around, but I don't know what their purpose was.

12 Q. I don't think you understood me. Not a single soldier belonging

13 to the Yugoslav army. I'm asking you whether you saw any member of the

14 Yugoslav army on that particular day before 10.00 a.m. That was my

15 question.

16 A. I didn't see anything, no.

17 Q. On the 24th and 25th of March, in your village, did you happen to

18 see any members of the Yugoslav army?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Am I right in saying that the army appeared in your village only

21 after those three soldiers had been killed?

22 A. That's true.

23 Q. Thank you. You also stated that on the 27th of March, at 1230

24 hours, the army arrived, and as you yourself said, and I quote your own

25 words: "The soldiers took away the bodies of the people who had been

1 killed, quickly."

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You have also described in great detail what happened on the 26th

4 of March, and I don't want to go back to that. However, on the 27th of

5 March, 1990 [sic], at 8.00, you, your brother Ruzhdi Gashi, also a local

6 man, went to see the bodies of the people who had fallen victim.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You saw them?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Then you went to look for some of the young people of the village,

11 "to help us to bury them, but we found nobody and we had to leave them

12 where they were. We covered them with sheets and blankets." Is that

13 correct?

14 A. That's exact.

15 Q. It was only on the next day, the following day, that members of

16 the Yugoslav army arrived.

17 A. On the 27th of January [as interpreted].

18 Q. Or, rather, that same day but several hours later; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. On the 3rd of April, you left the village with your

21 wife and your brother; right?

22 JUDGE MAY: That's the 30th of March.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 30th. 30th of March.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm asking this, Judge May,

25 because in this statement of his which you have before you, he said the

1 3rd of April. The date he gives is the 3rd of April.

2 JUDGE MAY: Well, you can put that to him.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We went to Srbica.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. You said earlier on that you left the village on the 3rd of April;

6 is that right?

7 A. Maybe it was a mistake. On the 30th of March. The 30th of

8 March.

9 Q. All right. And you went to the village of Srbica.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know how far the village of Srbica is from Nogovac and

12 Celina?

13 A. From Celina to Nagafc, you mean?

14 Q. No. From Celina and Nogovac - these are neighbouring villages -

15 up to Srbica where is where you went.

16 A. No, they're not near to one another. Maybe 15 kilometres. Ten,

17 12. First Pirana, Krusha e Vogel, Krusha e Mahde, Nagafc, and then comes

18 Celina. It's quite a ways away.

19 Q. In the night of the 2nd of April, did you hear two explosions or

20 not?

21 A. Yes. In Srbica, yes.

22 Q. You heard them?

23 A. I heard them.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 Re-examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Two very brief matters for clarification, if I

2 may. The first one, Your Honours, at the Livenote transcript page 30,

3 lines 20 to 25 of the Livenote that you have available, the question from

4 Mr. Milosevic to the witness was: "So the army targeted facilities from

5 which they were being shot at; is that right?" The witness then gave an

6 answer, and then there was an exchange by counsel and the Court and

7 Mr. Milosevic, and then the next question the accused stated something

8 which needs clarification, if I may.

9 Q. Sir, you were asked a question verbatim: "So the army targeted

10 facilities from which they were being shot at; is that right?" Your

11 answer was: "I'm not very clear."

12 Do you remember being asked that question and giving that answer?

13 Do you know what we're talking about?

14 A. Could you repeat the question, please?

15 Q. Yes. Under cross-examination from the accused, he asked you: "So

16 the army targeted facilities from which they were being shot at; is that

17 right?" Your response on the record is: "I'm not very clear."

18 Do you recall being asked that question and giving that answer?

19 A. The army made the problems. It shot at the houses.

20 Q. All right. You will recall that there was then an exchange

21 between the Court and -- and Mr. Milosevic and myself, and then the

22 accused said something to the effect of: "Yes, and the witness has

23 answered. He said that the army shot at the houses from which they were

24 being shot at."

25 Did you say or did you mean to say that the army shot at the

1 houses from which they were being shot at? That was suggested that was

2 your response. Did you say that?

3 A. There were other houses, and they killed innocent people there.

4 Q. All right. The second area I want to clarify, if I may, sir, is

5 that -- is as a result of a question by the accused, Judge Robinson wanted

6 something clarified about what the army -- why it was that you were being

7 told to leave Srbica by the local Serbs. Do you know why you were being

8 put on the buses and who gave what order?

9 A. The army came. I didn't see them. I was in the house. They said

10 to the Serbs that -- "Get the refugees out of Srbica within the next 24

11 hours or we're going to liquidate you, all of you." So they organised, as

12 the villagers themselves, Serb villagers, they said -- "Leave," said the

13 Albanians to the refugees, "Leave the village. Otherwise, we are going to

14 be damaged."

15 So they organised buses, and we got onto the buses and went to --

16 left for Albania. Some went to Prizren. Some remained there, the ones

17 left over, and the others continued.

18 Q. Thank you. In the -- were you ever told anything about bombing as

19 part of an explanation as to why it was you had to leave?

20 A. No. No.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: I have no further questions in re-examination.

23 Thank you.

24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Morina, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

25 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

4 MS. ROMANO: The Prosecution calls Agron Berisha.

5 JUDGE KWON: While we are waiting for a witness to come, I have --

6 I'd like to request this thing to the Prosecution: It's about the summary

7 of the witness statements. As Judge May pointed out earlier, that the

8 Chamber is very grateful to your efforts to produce the statements in

9 advance, but however, given the complexity of the case, I'd like to ask

10 one thing more. I wonder, is it possible for you to add a line, when

11 submitting the statements of the crime-base witnesses, add the line which

12 indicates what specific facts and, namely, the paragraphs in the

13 indictments or the counts in the indictment which this statement is

14 related to?

15 MS. ROMANO: Just clarification. You would like this in the

16 summary?

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, in the summary.

18 MS. ROMANO: Yes. Just a second.

19 [Prosecution counsel confers]

20 MS. ROMANO: Okay. We will try that.

21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you very much.

22 MS. ROMANO: You would prefer to have the full statement?

23 JUDGE KWON: No. No, in the summary. Just the line "This witness

24 is related to paragraph 78, count 4," something like that. Thank you.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: I might say, Your Honour, we'll certainly do that

1 for the ones that we have yet to prepare. The next one, of course, won't

2 have that, but I'll try and tell the Court orally before I call the next

3 witness, if that is of assistance. I'll do that during the break. We

4 hadn't put that in previous summaries, but I will certainly comply.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

9 JUDGE MAY: If you would like to take a seat.

10 WITNESS: Agron Berisha

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 Examined by Ms. Romano:

13 Q. Mr. Berisha, can you please state your full name for the Chamber.

14 A. My name is Agron Berisha.

15 Q. Sir, you were born in Suva Reka on the 10th of October, 1963; it's

16 correct?

17 A. Yes, that's true. I was born on the 10th of October, 1963, in

18 Suhareka.

19 Q. You are married and have three children?

20 A. Yes, that's true.

21 Q. What's your ethnicity?

22 A. I'm Albanian.

23 Q. Do you have any military training or experience?

24 A. I did my military service in 1982, 1983, in Vranje.

25 Q. Mr. Berisha, you graduated from the University of Pristina, and

1 you completed your medical training in 1998. You spent from October 1997

2 to June 1998 in Belgrade. Is it correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And since June 1998, you have worked as a gynaecologist in Suva

5 Reka; it's correct?

6 A. Yes, that's true.

7 Q. Where is Suva Reka located?

8 A. Suhareke is a little town with about 15.000 to 20.000 inhabitants

9 in the middle, the southern part of Kosova, not far from the town of

10 Prizren. It has about 50 villages around it, with 60.000 inhabitants in

11 the region.

12 Q. What was the ethnical composition of Suva Reka before March 1999?

13 A. Before the war, in Suhareke, there was the following ethnicity,

14 approximately: Ninety-five per cent of the population was Albanian, and

15 the other portion was mostly Serbs, and a few Montenegrins and Roma.

16 Q. Mr. Berisha, how did you find the situation in your town, Suva

17 Reka, after you came back in June 1998?

18 A. I graduated at the end of June of 1998 and returned immediately to

19 Suhareke. The situation in Suhareke was very difficult, very -- a lot of

20 tension. In the streets of Suhareke, there were very few people.

21 Everyone was afraid. Most of the stores were not open, or if they opened,

22 they only opened for a few hours in the morning, when the people, mostly

23 women and children, left their houses to do their basic shopping, to get

24 basic foodstuffs.

25 Q. Mr. Berisha, let me interrupt you. You say it was very tense and

1 it was very difficult. Foodstuff what was causing this tension?

2 A. I think the tension in the population came from -- it was a result

3 of the fear that the people had of the police and the army, the Serbian

4 police and army.

5 Q. Do you remember seeing the army in your town at that time?

6 A. Which army are you referring to?

7 Q. Any army.

8 A. Yes. I saw the soldiers of the Yugoslav armies, which were

9 wandering around with automatic rifles.

10 Q. And can you describe if they wore uniforms at that time?

11 A. Yes. The soldiers that I saw had mostly military uniforms, but

12 they were mostly in vehicles -- in green uniforms. They were mostly in

13 vehicles. They didn't walk around on foot in Suhareke. They usually

14 drove through in buses -- in military vehicles, buses, various types of

15 vehicles, trucks.

16 Q. Mr. Berisha --

17 MS. ROMANO: I will ask the usher to show the witness Exhibit

18 number -- first number 18.

19 Q. Mr. Berisha, can you look at those photos and can you indicate if

20 you see any uniforms similar to the ones you saw at that time in your

21 village -- in your town, sorry.

22 A. Do you mean the police uniforms or the army uniforms?

23 Q. First the army uniforms.

24 A. I don't think that was translated.

25 MS. ROMANO: No, I didn't hear anything. I don't have a

1 translation.

2 JUDGE KWON: Army uniforms, not the police uniforms.

3 A. Military uniforms, which are in the first picture.

4 MS. ROMANO:

5 Q. So the photo 1?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. ROMANO: Mr. Usher, can you please put the photo on the ELMO,

8 photo 1. That's the one the witness indicated.

9 Q. You also said that you saw police officers at that time. Can you

10 also look at the same set of photos and indicate if they have similar

11 uniforms to the one you saw.

12 A. Could you repeat the question, please?

13 Q. The question is that you said that you saw army and you saw

14 soldiers and police at that time in your village when you came back in

15 1998. So you identified some of the -- the photo with the army. I'm

16 asking you to identify, if possible, any uniform that you saw at that time

17 belonging to the police officers.

18 A. No, there isn't -- I think they are in number 6, photograph 6.

19 Q. Thanks.

20 MS. ROMANO: Mr. Usher, can you just put it on the ELMO, number

21 6. Thank you.

22 Can I have the witness shown -- yes, I will need it later, but

23 right now can I have the witness be shown the Exhibit 17.

24 Q. Mr. Berisha, you also said that when you saw the army, they were

25 in vehicles, you saw them in tanks and cars. Can you please also look at

1 this set of photos and indicate if you recognise any of the vehicles that

2 you saw at that time, and can you name it if you know the name of the

3 vehicles.

4 A. Yes. I saw vehicles, military vehicles. They are in photograph

5 2, and then in number 3.

6 Q. Do you know the name of the vehicles, by any chance?

7 A. And then number 7 perhaps. Well, in number 3 -- in number 3,

8 there are armed transport vehicles, armed, not with wheels but with -- I

9 don't know what you call them. Like with chains, they had.

10 Q. Only if you know the names by your previous military experience.

11 But if you don't know, it's not a problem.

12 A. I don't know exactly really.

13 Q. Thank you. So coming back to your testimony, can you please

14 repeat what was causing the situation of fear or terror at that time in

15 your village when you came back in June 1998?

16 A. I think the reason for the fear in the population at the time was

17 the violence, the police violence which was being exercised on the

18 Albanian population from the police, from the Serb police, that is.

19 Q. Can you give the Court examples of this violence?

20 A. Yes, I can give you a couple of examples. This violence was

21 really very brutal. The day I returned from Belgrade, when I graduated

22 there, the day after that, we were mistreated walking down the street. We

23 were -- one where we were coming by bus from the town of Shtime, which is

24 about 30 kilometres away from Suhareke, and before we got out of the town

25 of Shtime, we were stopped. There were seven or eight policemen who

1 stopped our bus and got us all out of the bus and beat us up, all of us.

2 Q. Did you -- sorry, Mr. Berisha. Did you witness, apart from that

3 beating that happened to you, did you witness anybody else being

4 mistreated?

5 A. Yes. Yes. All of us. They gave us all a blow. Two young boys

6 who were coming from different areas of Serbia, I don't know exactly where

7 they were coming from, but they had their private affairs to tend to.

8 They were young guys.

9 Q. Mr. Berisha --

10 A. There was really no reason, no pretext, no reason at all for the

11 beating. They checked us, and they didn't find anything on us. We were

12 civilians, travellers, simply. But they beat us all up.

13 Q. And in your town, do you remember any incident that happened where

14 police or soldiers mistreated the population at that time?

15 A. Yes. It was really a problem to go out on the street at the time,

16 on foot or by car. The son of my uncle, Fatoni [phoen], he had a car, a

17 good car, a BMW, and he was stopped by the police in the centre of

18 Suhareke. And they said, "This is not a type of car you should be

19 driving. This is a type of car we should be driving." The car was okay.

20 It was in order. It had been gone through customs, it was in a good

21 state, and the boy had all the documents he needed. He had his driver's

22 licence and the papers for the car.

23 Q. What happened?

24 A. But he was taken to the police station. The car was confiscated

25 for a few days. He was beaten up and he was sent home.

1 Q. Mr. Berisha, was the KLA in your town at that time?

2 A. I didn't see any UCK, KLA members in and around Suhareke, or their

3 activities.

4 Q. Were you or your family associated to the KLA?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Can you describe the feeling among your neighbours? Were they

7 feeling safe to go out all the time?

8 A. No. I would say not at all. People rarely went into town. I

9 went every day, out every day, but in the morning I had problems, and I

10 always thought of: How am I going to get to my job? And when I was at my

11 job, I was wondering all the time: How will I possibly get home? There

12 was really a lot of tension.

13 Q. Do you remember hearing or seeing shooting at that time?

14 A. Yes, there was shooting. They were rare when I went into the town

15 of Suhareke, but there was shooting from time to time. At my house, which

16 is situated near the police station, or was at the time situated near the

17 police, I heard shooting, which I think came from the police station.

18 They shot towards my house, towards the house of Ahmet Berisha, two times,

19 on two evenings. On two separate evenings, there was shooting.

20 Q. Were any of your neighbours shot or suffered from the shooting?

21 A. Not at that moment, fortunately, but as my neighbour told me, one

22 of the bullets whizzed right beside his body, past him, and there were

23 bullet holes in the windows, and there was a second impact on the wall.

24 So you could see the trajectory of the bullet and you could see from the

25 trajectory that it came from the police station. I'm quite sure that some

1 policeman was just trying to show what he could do, how far he could

2 shoot.

3 Q. Did you see policemen or did you see anybody shooting? Did you

4 see who was shooting?

5 A. No, I didn't. It was in the late afternoon.

6 Q. And do you have any recollection, were people -- they were shot

7 while they were in their houses?

8 A. Yes. People were not -- they did not shoot the people, I said.

9 It was only fire shot I heard, aimed at my neighbour's home, but nobody

10 got killed or injured. It was not aimed at the persons, fortunately.

11 Q. At that time, Mr. Berisha, are you able to remember if you heard

12 or if you saw any propaganda or any speech made against the Kosovar

13 Albanians, again, before March 1999?

14 A. Yes, I do. I remember -- I'm not sure whether I read it or heard

15 it on television --

16 Q. What was that?

17 A. I heard that Vojislav Seselj, the chairman of the Radical Serb

18 Party, said that we will drive all Albanians behind the Mountains of the

19 Damned. For Your Honours, for your information, your distinguished

20 Honours, Albania lies behind these Mountains of the Damned. Then he

21 mentioned some words about a corridor that Albanians should go through,

22 the way they should be driven out by the then-chairman of Macedonia,

23 Gligorov.

24 Q. This was on the TV, or do you remember where have you seen that?

25 A. I can't be precise where I heard it, whether I saw it on

1 television or I had read it. I'm not sure.

2 Q. Mr. Berisha, after the Holbrooke agreement in October 1998, did

3 the KVM arrive in Suva Reka?

4 A. Yes. After the agreement, yes, the agreement signed between

5 Holbrooke and the Yugoslav negotiator. KVM mission came to Suhareke too,

6 and they settled in the house of my neighbour, most of them, the

7 main -- the staff was there, actually, for the region of Suhareke.

8 Q. Okay. We'll get there.

9 A. Nexhat was his name.

10 Q. We'll get there, Mr. Berisha. For right now, I want you to tell

11 the Court if the situation improved or not after the establishment of the

12 KVM in your town.

13 A. I may say that after the arrival, the situation changed

14 radically. It became calmer, more relaxed. People began to go out of

15 their homes more freely in the streets, began to return to their jobs.

16 Most of the shops reopened. Generally life resumed its -- a more relaxed

17 pace, I would say.

18 Q. And what happened after the withdrawal of the KVM?

19 A. As far as I remember, they stayed there for about six or seven

20 months, the KVM, and then they withdrew suddenly sometime -- a week before

21 the NATO airstrikes began against the former Yugoslavia. After the

22 withdrawal, the situation became grave again. It became worse than it was

23 prior to the arrival, prior to the summer of 1998.

24 Q. Was there any deployment or increase in the police or the military

25 presence at the time?

1 A. That week, I have seen military and police, Serb military and

2 police forces, who were patrolling the main streets. I didn't know where

3 they were heading, what they were doing there.

4 Q. And they were the same forces, wearing the same uniform that you

5 described before, or they were different?

6 A. The same uniforms.

7 Q. Were you in Suva Reka on the 24th of March, 1999, when the NATO

8 bombing started?

9 A. Yes, I was. I remember the NATO airstrike against the former

10 Yugoslavia and Kosovo began on the 24th of March, 1999. Because of the

11 grave situation prevailing then two days before that date, I did not

12 report to work. The strike began around 20 hours of that date. We, the

13 population in general, we were very excited. We were expecting something

14 important to happen.

15 Q. Why do you say you were excited?

16 A. Because I heard, as I said earlier, from the words of Seselj, that

17 there was a plan prepared deliberately for us, and we were scared for our

18 lives, because we were just simply civilians shut in our own homes.

19 Q. And Mr. Berisha, you said you didn't go to work during the days

20 before that. Were you afraid at the time? That's why you stayed at

21 home?

22 A. Yes, I was scared. I could not go. On the last day, three days

23 before that date, when I was returning from work, the police stopped me

24 four times, and they spoke to me in a very harsh way. They searched me.

25 It was good that I knew Serbian, otherwise it was a problem, if you did

1 not speak Serbian, to communicate with them.

2 Q. Mr. Berisha, coming back to the day of the NATO bombing, you said

3 you were at home. Do you remember if Suva Reka was affected in any way by

4 the bombing? Was Suva Reka bombed?

5 A. I was in Suhareke up to the 27th of March, 1999, at 6.00 in the

6 afternoon. Up to that moment, I did not hear of any bombs being dropped

7 from NATO planes there.

8 Q. And coming back to your expression, Mr. Berisha, that you said you

9 were excited. That means you were -- what was the feeling? You were

10 afraid? You were happy? Can you just say what was -- what "excited" --

11 can you be more specific what is the term "excited"?

12 A. It was a mixed feeling, a feeling of joy and of fear. We were

13 happy, that we hoped that NATO bombs would bring us freedom so that our

14 people would breathe freely. We saw the freedom of the Albanian people of

15 Kosovo were very close to us, but at the same time, we were scared for our

16 lives. We were scared because we were afraid that the Serbian police and

17 the army would take revenge, retaliate against us innocent civilians who

18 were shut in their homes. Unfortunately, the next day we saw that the

19 second came true, the fear, that is.

20 MS. ROMANO: Your Honour --

21 JUDGE MAY: That would be a convenient time to stop. We're going

22 to adjourn now.

23 Mr. Berisha, would you remember in this break, and any others

24 there may be in your evidence, not to speak to anybody about your evidence

25 until it's over. And that also includes members of the Prosecution team.

1 Half past two.

2 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Romano.

3 MS. ROMANO: Thank you.

4 Q. Mr. Berisha, before the break, you finished your testimony by

5 saying that, unfortunately, the next day you saw that the second came

6 true, the fear came true. So I will ask you some questions right now

7 about what happened on the 25th of March and the day after the NATO

8 bombing. Mr. Berisha, the next day you were at home; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. ROMANO: I will ask the usher -- just a second, Mr. Berisha.

11 I will ask the usher to please show the witness the document, the

12 photograph that has been marked OTP reference K399, photograph 2, and I

13 have copies here. Mr. Usher, can you just put the photo on the ELMO.

14 Q. I will ask Mr. Berisha to look at the photo and tell the Court if

15 you can see your house there.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me. The document will be marked

17 Prosecution Exhibit 20.

18 MS. ROMANO: 20. Okay. Thank you.

19 A. Yes. This is part of the neighbourhood where I lived until 24th

20 of March, 1999. My house is this one here, this one here.

21 Q. Mr. Berisha, can you -- if you find a red pencil or pen, can you

22 please mark on the photo where is your house, where your house is

23 located.

24 A. Yes, I can do that.

25 MS. ROMANO: It doesn't matter. Black or -- which one is better?

1 Red or -- you can't see it?

2 Q. Can you please use the black one, because I think we cannot see

3 with the red.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Mr. Berisha, you were in your house on that day, in the morning.

6 What did you see or hear on that day?

7 A. That day, in the morning, I was woken up early in the morning, at

8 5.30, by my mother, who was very scared, because she had seen a large

9 group of policemen going from the police station to the Reshtani village

10 of our municipality.

11 Q. Can you please, Mr. Berisha, show again in the photo where did you

12 see the policemen?

13 JUDGE MAY: Sorry. Was it you who saw the policemen,

14 Mr. Berisha? Did you see the policemen or was it your mother?

15 A. It was my mother who saw the policemen earlier, because I was

16 sleeping. And she came, scared, and woke me up from my sleep. And then I

17 saw the situation from the window and saw with my own eyes a large number

18 of policemen, about 70 policemen, who were walking on this road, from this

19 part, in this direction.

20 MS. ROMANO:

21 Q. Mr. Berisha, can you describe, if you can, if you could see at

22 that time how they were dressed?

23 A. Yes, I remember. That day the soldiers were dressed

24 in -- police. In fact, they were police, not soldiers. If I said

25 "soldiers," I apologise. It was a lapse. They were dressed in police

1 uniforms, camouflage uniforms. On the left arm, each of them had a white

2 band.

3 MS. ROMANO: Can I have the witness shown Exhibit 18.

4 Q. Mr. Berisha, can you look at the set of photographs that you've

5 seen before, and if you can, can you identify the uniform or a similar

6 uniform that you saw, that you referred?

7 A. The policemen were dressed in the uniform that I see in photo

8 number 6.

9 MS. ROMANO: And just for the record -- can we have the record

10 show that the witness indicated number 6.

11 Q. Mr. Berisha --

12 A. A few of them wore helmets. Most of them wore hats.

13 Q. And the helmet is the same one that you saw in the picture number

14 6?

15 A. No. They had cloth. Not metallic, cloth hats. Sheleme [phoen],

16 we say. They wore caps, police caps.

17 Q. Mr. Berisha, do you remember seeing any -- if they were armed?

18 A. Each of them was carrying an automatic rifle.

19 MS. ROMANO: Just a second. I have here also that I would like to

20 have the witness shown. It has been marked OTP reference number K2767,

21 and it's a sheet displaying several photos of weapons, and I have copies

22 here.

23 JUDGE MAY: You're going to prove this in due course, Ms. Romano?

24 MS. ROMANO: Yes. Exactly the same -- in the same line as the

25 uniforms and the vehicles.

1 JUDGE MAY: Would the Senior Legal Officer come up, please.

2 [Trial Chamber and Senior Legal Officer confer]

3 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be marked Prosecution

4 Exhibit 21.

5 MS. ROMANO: Thank you.

6 Q. Mr. Berisha, when you referred to the weapons awhile ago, you

7 referred to automatic -- I think it was "automatic rifle." Can you see

8 any -- in any of these photos a similar weapon as the one that you are

9 referring to?

10 A. Yes. I can see it in photo number 1.

11 JUDGE KWON: We have two number ones.

12 MS. ROMANO: That must be a mistake here. Can we renumber? Maybe

13 we can -- maybe we can --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Number 1 which is in this photo that

15 is on the screen.

16 MS. ROMANO: Just to clarify, maybe we can -- we can number this

17 sheet number 1 and the second one number 2. So it is number 1 and sheet

18 number 1. Is this too confusing? Or by the --

19 JUDGE MAY: A and B. A and B.

20 MS. ROMANO: A and B. Okay. So this will be A1, photograph 1.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, that's right.

22 MS. ROMANO:

23 Q. Yes. Thank you. Coming back to your testimony, you said that you

24 saw these policemen, and can you, just for the record, state where was the

25 route -- where was the road where they were?

1 JUDGE MAY: He's pointed that out.

2 MS. ROMANO: I just would like a description if he knows the name

3 or it's close to anything. Just a direction to stay in the record, if

4 possible.

5 Q. What's the problem? I think it's not on the ELMO. The photograph

6 is not on the ELMO.

7 A. The policemen that morning were going from this place to this

8 direction that I'm showing with my arrow.

9 Q. And so --

10 A. From here to here, in this direction.

11 Q. And what did they do after that?

12 A. They walked. Apparently they were set out for an action. A small

13 group of four, five policemen turned back and went to the house of my

14 cousins, to the house of Faton Berisha and Nexhat Berisha.

15 Q. Could you point in the same photo where the houses of Faton and

16 Nexhat Berisha are located?

17 A. Their house is here. A large house, three-storey house with two

18 entrances. One entrance across my house where Faton lived. On the right

19 side lived Nexhat with his family.

20 Q. Can you again, Mr. Berisha, with a black pen, mark the house that

21 you're referring to.

22 A. This was their house.

23 Q. Mr. Berisha, how far were you away from this house? How far was

24 your window from the houses?

25 A. It was, at the most, ten metres away.

1 Q. And what did you see from your window?

2 A. I saw a group of policemen heading towards the entrance to the

3 main door of Nexhat's house, and some policemen left for the entrance to

4 Faton's house or Faton's share of the house. I saw four policemen heading

5 in both directions.

6 Q. Could you identify any of the policemen?

7 A. No. No, none of them.

8 Q. And what did they do after they approached the house?

9 A. They knocked on the door and entered inside the house, in the

10 corridor.

11 Q. To whom belonged that house?

12 A. It was a house, as I said, with two entrances, where two families

13 lived. In one part lived Faton and his family; on the other part, Nexhat

14 Berisha and his family.

15 Q. And which house did they enter, did the policemen enter?

16 A. From what I saw, they entered Faton's house. I saw the

17 police -- the other group heading towards Nexhat's entrance, but from my

18 house I could not see that part. I didn't see when they knocked on the

19 door and when they entered inside, because I couldn't do that from the

20 position of my window.

21 Q. So what did you see that happened after that?

22 A. I saw that the police did not stay long there, maybe about ten

23 minutes. Then they left. They left the house.

24 Q. Do you know what they did inside the house?

25 A. I cannot say what they did inside, because I couldn't see it, but

1 from what I heard later through a telephone conversation with Shyhrete,

2 Nexhat's wife, is the following: that the policeman had beaten Nexhat up

3 and they had taken from Shyhrete about 3.000 Deutschmarks to save her

4 husband from being killed.

5 Q. Did they take anything away from the house, the policemen?

6 A. I saw the policemen carrying a TV set, a small TV set.

7 Q. That you were able to see from your window?

8 A. Yes. That was all I saw for the moment.

9 Q. And do you know if they took anything else from the house?

10 A. After about 20 minutes, in front of their house, a white car of

11 Niva brand parked, and I could see that various items, household items,

12 were being taken out of Nexhat's house; piles of papers, documents which

13 the international observers had left behind when they left Kosova.

14 Q. Mr. Berisha, at that time, were you able to see what was happening

15 in the other areas of the town or nearby?

16 A. In about ten minutes, I heard fire shots, automatic fire shots,

17 coming from the suburban part of Suhareke, and I saw fire and smoke,

18 flames and smoke, coming out of the houses.

19 Q. Mr. Berisha, do you know who was responsible for this looting and

20 this firing?

21 A. I am certain that it was the Serb police who did that. That day,

22 in the afternoon, their action lasted up to 4.00 in the afternoon. That

23 day, about 40 people got killed in that part of the village, and many

24 houses were torched. I heard --

25 Q. We'll get to that. I will stop you, Mr. Berisha, just a second,

1 because we'll get there. This was on the 25th of March. On the 26th of

2 March, you were -- can you tell the Court where were you, the 26th? Were

3 you still at home?

4 A. I was at home, together with my family, because it was impossible

5 to leave the house.

6 Q. And that day, did you hear or see anything?

7 A. Until midday, about 12.00, I did not see or hear anything of

8 importance that is worth mentioning at this trial. At 12.00, quite

9 suddenly, groups of 30 to 40 policemen surrounded the houses of Faton and

10 Nexhat, that is, this house that I have pinpointed in the document, in the

11 picture.

12 Q. Mr. Berisha, again I will ask you to describe the policemen that

13 you saw. Were they wearing the same or different uniforms?

14 A. They had the same uniforms, that is, blue camouflage uniform with

15 a white band on the left arm.

16 Q. So you can continue. What happened next?

17 A. They surrounded this house, this large house I told you about, and

18 the next house, where Vesel Berisha and his sons were living.

19 Q. How many people were in the houses, approximately?

20 A. Approximately 25 persons. All were in the second house, not in

21 the large house I spoke about, but in the second house, adjoining house.

22 From what people saw during the previous day, people were scared of

23 staying in their own home which is close to the street and had taken

24 refuge in their neighbour's house, that is, Adversare's house, their

25 uncle, to spend the night there, and they were there at 12.00 on the 26th

1 of March, all together, as a group.

2 Q. And what happened after the policemen surrounded the house?

3 A. I saw that at the entrance of Faton and Nexhat, I saw three

4 policemen going inside.

5 Q. Did you recognise any of these policemen?

6 A. One of them I did, the policeman who entered the house of Faton

7 broke the door, the main door, and entered inside.

8 Q. Who is the policeman that you recognise? From where did you know

9 him?

10 A. I knew him because he was a Serb from Suhareka who worked in an

11 organisation. He was a -- he was not an active police but had become

12 active those days. I know him because we are of the same age, and I used

13 to know him since we were very young.

14 Q. And that was -- that was common at that time, that people who were

15 not policemen became policemen?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And how did that happen? Can you describe how was that, how'd

18 that happen, if you know?

19 A. People used to work in different organisations, and in this

20 situation, we were put into police uniform.

21 Q. So what did the policemen do after they approached the house?

22 A. Two groups of three policemen entered the two entrances of the big

23 house and began to shoot inside. You could hear the guns firing

24 sporadically, and within a few seconds, I would say, smoke and flames came

25 out of the windows of the house.

1 The other group of police which had drawn up to Vesel's, the old

2 man's house, a larger group of police went to Vesel's house, and I noticed

3 that Vesel's elder son, Sedat, going out and talking with them.

4 Q. Mr. Berisha, I will interrupt you just awhile. Do you know the

5 time you could see this from your window?

6 A. This happened at about 12.00 noon. It was good weather, and I

7 could clearly see what was happening from my window in my yard.

8 Q. And you said that you saw the houses on fire or the smoke from the

9 houses. Do you know what happened? How did they come on fire?

10 A. I don't know. I don't know. But after the police went in, after

11 30 seconds or one minute later, the house was enveloped by smoke and

12 flame. It seems that the police had a special kind of weapon to set

13 houses alight. And I did not see this weapon and don't know anything

14 about it.

15 Q. And after the houses were on fire, what happened to the people who

16 were inside the house?

17 A. There was nobody in the first house. As I said, they were all in

18 the house of Uncle Vesel. Sedat, who went out to the door and talked with

19 the policemen, the police started shouting to Sedat.

20 Q. And could you hear what they were saying?

21 A. No. No.

22 Q. What happened after that?

23 A. After this, I saw how the members of the family who were inside,

24 members from several families, from Faton's family and Nexhat's family and

25 the families of Vesel Berisha's sons, I saw how they came out in a rush,

1 at great speed. They couldn't even put on their shoes. Some were wearing

2 shoes and some were barefoot, running from this house along the road,

3 coming out onto the main road, and some of them came between my house and

4 the house of Faton and Nexhat.

5 Q. Mr. Berisha, the policemen, did they hurt or did they harm any of

6 the people?

7 JUDGE MAY: Just ask him what happened.

8 MS. ROMANO: Yes. I'm just trying -- yes.

9 JUDGE MAY: Just ask him what happened without leading him on that

10 point.

11 What happened? The people ran away, then what happened?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vesel's third son, Bujar, was the

13 last to run, and the policeman called to the elder son, Sedat, calling,

14 "Sedat, come here." I was able to hear this from inside because they

15 came up close to my house. At that moment, after Bujar and Sedat had come

16 together, a group of about ten policemen started to shoot at Bujar and

17 Sedat with automatic weapons. The policemen emptied all their magazines

18 into the bodies of Bujar and Sedat.

19 MS. ROMANO:

20 Q. Did you see -- did you see that from your window? Did you see the

21 policemen shooting at Sedat and Bujar?

22 A. I saw this scene very clearly with my own eyes. I saw Bujar and

23 Sedat fall about two or three metres from the rear of the house of Nexhat

24 and Faton.

25 The gunshots continued. And groups of six policemen had also

1 entered Vesel's house, which they also set on fire. There was shooting on

2 all sides. There was also shooting in the yard and inside the houses.

3 After a few moments, after a short time, I saw how the police

4 coming out of the front of the large house which I have encircled, I saw

5 them dragging the bodies of four people, and I was able to identify the

6 bodies as those of Nexhat, the body of Hava Berisha, the body of Faton,

7 and of Faton's mother, Fatime. These bodies were brought up close to the

8 bodies of Bujar and Sedat.

9 At that moment, the great house was enveloped by flames. It

10 covered the roof of the house, the rafters, and the rafters began to fall

11 on the bodies which were enveloped by flames. So the bodies were burned.

12 It seems that the criminals had this as their daily business and

13 they were well trained, and they knew where to leave the bodies so that

14 they would be burned up.

15 Q. Mr. Berisha, you said that approximately 20 people or more were in

16 that place. What happened to the others?

17 A. The others, I said, ran away, women and men, in the direction of

18 the centre -- of the shopping centre and the trade centre.

19 These two shops, which I'm indicating with my pointer, were not

20 there before the war. They were built after the war. And this

21 photograph, which I realise because I live in Suhareka, was taken after

22 the war.

23 And more or less when I went to the window where you see from the

24 front of my house, I saw -- more or less at this point I saw Nexhmedin,

25 the son, the youngest son of Vesel, who was more or less my age, I saw him

1 seriously wounded, and he was crawling and trying to walk along the ground

2 with the help of one hand. He was being helped by his pregnant wife

3 Lirie.

4 Q. Mr. Berisha --

5 A. Lirie managed to drag Nexhmedin, wounded as he was, and to remove

6 him behind the first shop of the shopping centre. From that moment, the

7 members of the family which I had mentioned, never -- were unable to see

8 anybody because nothing more could be seen from my house.

9 Q. Mr. Berisha, I know that you could not see from your house, but do

10 you know what happened to these people, the people who went to the trade

11 centre?

12 A. Before answering this question, I want to tell you about another

13 detail, something that I saw a few minutes -- moments after the last time

14 I saw the wounded Nexhmedin being dragged away by his pregnant wife

15 Lirie. A policeman who was at the bus station - the bus station of

16 Suhareke is just there. That's the fence around the bus station - and he

17 passed through the little door there, and looking at the ground, and I

18 imagine that he was following the bloodstains that came from the body of

19 the wounded Nexhmedin.

20 Q. Mr. Berisha, coming back to my previous question, I know that you

21 haven't seen -- what you're testifying right now, you saw it?

22 A. Yes. Yes.

23 Q. And even not having seen what happened to the trade centre, do you

24 know what happened to the rest of the family?

25 A. The police pointed this entire group of unarmed civilians - women,

1 men, children, including, as I said, the pregnant Lirie - and they

2 directed them towards the premises, a pizzeria or cafeteria belonging to

3 the Shala [phoen] family from Suhareke, and they shot them up in this

4 pizzeria. On these premises, besides members of my own family, there were

5 also people from the family of Hajbin Berisha, the family of Avdi Berisha,

6 from Suhareke. In all, there were about 40 to 50 people.

7 Q. Mr. Berisha --

8 A. Later --

9 Q. Do you --

10 A. Do ask.

11 Q. Wait a minute. I will ask it. Did there come a time when the

12 police came to your house?

13 A. No, fortunately.

14 Q. And where were you on the 27th of March?

15 A. Please allow me to tell you something about the fate of the people

16 in the pizzeria.

17 Q. Mr. Berisha --

18 A. In one sentence.

19 Q. Okay, but you haven't seen that?

20 A. I will tell you what I have heard.

21 Q. Okay. In one sentence, briefly.

22 A. In one sentence. As they told me, as I have been told by people

23 who saw it and experienced it, experienced that terror, groups of several

24 policemen shot pitilessly, with automatic weapons, and threw grenades at

25 them. All of them were killed in that pizzeria. Then trucks came and

1 loaded up 40 to 50 bodies and took them towards Prizren.

2 Q. Who told you this, Mr. Berisha?

3 A. Witnesses who were inside the pizzeria and fortunately survived

4 told me of what happened. These witnesses jumped from the truck carrying

5 the bodies along the road to Prizren.

6 Q. Thank you, sir. Coming back on the 27th of March, where were you

7 on the 27th of March, 1999?

8 A. On the 27th of March, 1999, I was inside my home with the members

9 of my family. At about 6.00 in the evening, three policemen came to my

10 house. They kicked at the front door.

11 Q. Can you tell how they were dressed?

12 A. The policemen were wearing blue uniforms, camouflage, but they

13 didn't have the white strip on their arms.

14 Q. Were they armed?

15 A. Yes. Yes. They were in groups of three and going to every house

16 in the neighbourhood. They were setting alight to the houses, and as soon

17 as they went in, they would shoot, and smoke and flame would come out of

18 the houses.

19 They had come up to my house, no doubt to set it on fire too. It

20 was a group of three policemen. And they started to beat at the door, and

21 I saw from the window what they were going to do. And I told the members

22 of my family not to say anything but allow me to go and talk to the

23 policemen, reach an understanding with them, and soften them somehow. I

24 told them in Serbian, "Please, we are unarmed civilians here inside. Now

25 I will open the door," and I went up and I opened the door.

1 Q. Mr. Berisha, could you see their faces?

2 A. Yes. I talked to them.

3 Q. Could you -- but they wore masks or anything, they had their faces

4 covered?

5 A. They did not wear masks, any of them. I saw them. I saw some

6 going into other houses with masks, but the ones who came to my house to

7 set it on fire were without masks.

8 Q. And did you recognise any of the policemen?

9 A. I didn't, but my brother recognised one of them. He was a person

10 who was of the Muslim nationality, known as the Gorani, from Dragas. His

11 name was Ramiz.

12 Q. So what happened?

13 A. The police came into the house, although what the policeman said

14 at the doorstep: "Whoever owns this house, let them go on their knees."

15 But I asked the police to go inside and to talk as human beings. They

16 seemed to behave more gently, and came inside, and we started to talk,

17 normally. Of course, they were shouting, but we -- they talked to my

18 brother, and the two policemen who were behind me talked to my brother and

19 they asked for money from my brother, and we were scared because we

20 thought we would have the same destiny as our cousins. And my brother

21 took out a thousand German marks and gave them to the policeman. However,

22 the police were not satisfied with this, and they told us to go into

23 another room and to give us all your money. And Bardhyl called me,

24 saying, "Come here and tell me what the policemen wanted." And I decided

25 not to give them more money, because we didn't have any more. And I told

1 Bardhyl that they will do their job whether we give them money or not.

2 And I went out and told them this, and then the police seemed to accept

3 this, and said, "Well, in that there are all you people in there, with

4 children and women, we will let you off this time. However, we advise you

5 not to stay at home, because you are not safe, and other groups of

6 policemen will come and kill you, and we advise you to get into your

7 car - you've got your car there outside - and head for Prizren and Albania

8 immediately." And we did what the police did [as interpreted], at great

9 speed, and we got into the car, went out onto the main road --

10 Q. How many people left with you?

11 A. I fit all the members of my family into the car. There were 11 of

12 us.

13 Q. And from your house, you left, and where did you go?

14 A. We set off for Prizren. I started driving fast, because there

15 were a lot of policemen in the town of Suhareke, and almost all the

16 buildings in the house [as interpreted] were on fire. There were flames

17 coming. Fine rain was falling. And I drove fast through the centre of

18 Suhareke, driving towards Prizren. We reached Prizren without any great

19 difficulty, in about 15 minutes, and I went straight to the house of my

20 aunt in Prizren.

21 Q. How long did you stay in your aunt's house?

22 A. I stayed four days in my aunt's house.

23 Q. And did you leave again?

24 A. It was there that, four days later, I took the most serious

25 decision of my life and decided to leave Kosova. And one morning, the

1 morning of 1st of April, we left for Albania.

2 Q. Why did you decide to leave, Mr. Berisha?

3 A. I decided to leave for Albania for several reasons. It was very

4 dangerous to remain in Kosova at that time, because I could have had the

5 same fate as my cousins. Also, it was said that the police were going

6 from house to house in Prizren, and the people whom they found who were

7 not from Prizren were being deported by the police to the Albanian border,

8 along with members of their family. And I didn't want any harm to happen

9 to my aunt, so I left for Albania.

10 There was a third point which impelled me to go to Albania and

11 that was fear that they might discover that I was an eyewitness of what

12 had happened in Suhareka.

13 I want to say that -- just allow me for a moment to say

14 something. One thing that impelled me to go to Albania was that near the

15 bus station here is the petrol station of Suhareka --

16 Q. Mr. Berisha, just to clarify, right now we're talking about the

17 time that you were in Suva Reka. What did you want to tell us?

18 A. Yes. I've backtracked a little bit, Suhareka, to explain a detail

19 which is connected with my decision to leave Kosova. And this is that on

20 the 26th of March, at the petrol station, Jasher Berisha, my cousin, was

21 working at the petrol station, and he was taken by certain unknown people

22 and simply disappeared. We still don't know anything about what happened

23 to him. And it seems that these events are connected, and it seems that

24 Jasher was an eyewitness of what happened in the pizzeria belonging to the

25 Shala family. And to obliterate traces, the evidence, he was taken by

1 unknown people. And I was frightened that I would suffer the same fate,

2 and so I decided to head for Albania.

3 Q. So --

4 A. We went to Albania --

5 Q. Yes. After you left Prizren, how did you get to the border?

6 A. This was the 1st of April, 1999, in the morning, at about 9.00

7 when we set off. Eleven members of our family. We set off to the border,

8 and we managed easily to get to the village of Zhur where there was a long

9 column of people waiting to cross the border. The column was about six or

10 seven kilometres long.

11 On that day, people were being carried by bus from Prizren to the

12 end of the column, and there they were unloaded round near Zhur. And this

13 column went through the villages of Opoje from where the Albanians were

14 also being deported, and it was -- in fact, it was a Golgotha, a river of

15 people leaving Kosova.

16 Q. Mr. Berisha, do you know who provided the buses? How did the

17 people get the buses?

18 A. I don't know. I don't know. Somebody organised it.

19 Q. There were many buses?

20 A. A lot. There were buses belonging to Kosovatrans and to private

21 firms, carrying people from Prizren and from other towns and unloading

22 them in Zhur.

23 Q. Do you remember who was driving?

24 A. No.

25 Q. So when did you get to the border?

1 A. I managed to reach the border round about 4.00 in the morning on

2 the 2nd of April. There was a Serbian policeman at the border, and he

3 ordered me to gather the identity documents of -- my own documents and

4 those of the members of my family, that is my passport, identity card,

5 driving licence, vehicle registration documents and licence plates from my

6 car. And I did as the police told me, gathered them all together and

7 handed them over. He threw them into a large basket which was filled with

8 these documents that I mentioned and which had been taken from people who

9 had crossed the border before me.

10 Q. So the documents were being taken from everybody who was crossing

11 the border?

12 A. From everybody.

13 Q. And did they ever return the documents to the people?

14 A. No.

15 Q. And again, when you said "Serbian policeman," can you again tell

16 me, if he was dressed in a uniform, what kind of uniform was that?

17 A. Which Serbian policeman do you mean? At which point?

18 Q. The one who was asking you to gather the documents.

19 A. It was only one Serbian policeman, who was wearing an ordinary

20 police -- an ordinary blue police uniform.

21 Q. It was not a camouflage?

22 A. Not camouflage.

23 MS. ROMANO: And can I again have the witness shown Exhibit 18?

24 Q. Again, Mr. Berisha, can you look at the photos and can you tell

25 the Court if you identify any of the uniforms as similar to the one that

1 the policeman was wearing at the border?

2 A. Can I see a little more closely? The uniform was similar to that

3 in photograph 4. It's closest to the uniform in photograph 4.

4 Q. And did the policeman, did he have a sign, an insignia as well, as

5 this photo is showing?

6 A. There wasn't a band, but I don't remember what patches he had.

7 Q. Mr. Berisha, with you were your family. How old were your

8 children at that time?

9 A. My eldest son is now ten. This happened three years ago, and he

10 was seven. Aditi [phoen] is four, and my youngest was six months old. My

11 brother's children, my brother's three children, were approximately the

12 same ages.

13 Q. And how long did it take for you to cross the border, stay in the

14 line and cross the border?

15 A. About 18 hours. From the morning of the 1st of April to the

16 morning of the 2nd, when I crossed the border into Albania.

17 Q. Mr. Berisha, the last question: Did you leave your town because

18 you were afraid of the NATO bombing?

19 A. No, not at all. We saw the NATO bombing as a hope that might

20 bring freedom to Kosova.

21 MS. ROMANO: No more questions.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] You said that you studied in Belgrade.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Did you study in Belgrade throughout? Where did you study before

2 that?

3 A. I graduated from medical faculty in Pristina and went on to

4 specialise in gynaecology at Belgrade.

5 Q. When did you graduate at the medical faculty of Pristina?

6 A. I graduated from Pristina on 20th of April -- 20th of February,

7 1990.

8 Q. When did you go to Belgrade for your specialist training?

9 A. I -- I was in Belgrade for the nine last months of my special

10 training, of the special training, which lasted four years. And the first

11 part was in Prizren, and I was there from 1997 to 1998.

12 Q. That means that in Prizren in 1997 and 1998, you worked as a

13 physician, doing your specialist training.

14 A. I worked in Prizren from 1995 to 1997. From 1994 or 1995 to

15 1997.

16 Q. And when did you begin your specialist training?

17 A. In 1994 or 1995. It was 1994 or 1995.

18 Q. And in the meantime, you were a doctor, an intern, since the time

19 you graduated to the beginning of your specialist training. Where did you

20 work at that time?

21 A. I didn't understand that sentence.

22 Q. You said that in 1990 or 1991, you graduated from the faculty of

23 medicine in Pristina.

24 A. I graduated from the medical faculty in Pristina on 20th of

25 February, 1990.

1 Q. And after you graduated, where did you work until you started

2 doing your specialist training in Prizren? Where were you working up

3 until 1994?

4 A. After graduating, I was an intern for one year at the hospital in

5 Prizren. Then I was employed in the health centre at Malisheve, where I

6 worked for three years, approximately.

7 Q. While you were studying, and before you graduated in Pristina,

8 were there many other students, Albanians, there at university?

9 A. I didn't understand that sentence.

10 Q. You studied in Pristina, I believe, at the faculty of medicine

11 there. How many colleagues of yours studied medicine at that time with

12 you?

13 A. I don't know the exact number. There were a lot of them.

14 Q. They were mostly Albanians, weren't they?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you or any of your colleagues have any problems, experience

17 any problems during your studies because you were Albanians?

18 A. I don't know what kind of problems you mean.

19 Q. Well, any kind of problems which you could ascribe to -- that is

20 to say, that you thought you weren't treated equitably, equally, like

21 everybody else at the university of Pristina?

22 A. We had problems of a material nature, because as Albanians, we

23 came from among the poorest regions of Yugoslavia.

24 Q. I'm asking you about other problems. All students have financial,

25 material problems.

1 A. Generally, we had a good time there.

2 Q. By what you have just told us, you got a job straightaway in

3 Prizren and later on in Malisheve; is that right?

4 A. No. I didn't find work right away. In Prizren, I worked as a

5 voluntary, interim doctor. At that time, it was customary for an interim

6 doctor to be paid 70 per cent of his salary, of the salary of a doctor, of

7 a general practitioner, to which I was entitled at that time, but I and

8 two other friends of mine from Suhareke were the first not to be paid that

9 percentage of our salary.

10 Q. In view of the fact that these were your colleagues, do you know

11 that a large number of medical graduates throughout Serbia works on a

12 volunteer basis, in the same way you did?

13 A. I know that, but my Serb colleagues with whom we worked then did

14 receive salary. I didn't.

15 Q. And when did you start receiving a salary, actually?

16 A. After I finished my internship, which lasted about a year, I found

17 employment in the health centre of Malisheve, and there it was that I

18 started to receive my salary.

19 Q. Internship usually lasts for one year anyway?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In Malisheve, were you the only doctor or were there more doctors?

22 A. There were several doctors in Malisheve.

23 Q. And they were all Albanians, were they?

24 A. Yes, they were.

25 Q. And all of you together received salaries on a regular basis for

1 the work you did?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. When you decided to start your specialist training, you said that

4 you decided to specialise in gynaecology. Was it easy for you to be

5 accepted for this specialisation in gynaecology at the Prizren hospital?

6 A. Relatively easy, I would say, but to be admitted there, I had to

7 continue the specialisation training on a voluntary basis too.

8 Q. How long did you do your specialist training as a volunteer?

9 A. About three years.

10 Q. And then you moved to Belgrade, did you?

11 A. Yes. Then I went to Belgrade.

12 Q. Very well. You said you started your specialist training sometime

13 in 1994, I believe.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. That means that you went to Belgrade in 1997 or later on?

16 A. I went to Belgrade in 1997. October, it was.

17 Q. And from October 1997 until --?

18 A. Until June 1998.

19 Q. Where did you specialise in Belgrade?

20 A. In the Narodni Front gynaecological clinic.

21 Q. And how were you treated at the Narodni Front gynaecological

22 clinic?

23 A. Relatively well.

24 Q. You know that the Narodni Front clinic is a university clinic, in

25 fact? Together with you, were there other doctors doing their specialist

1 training, from Kosova and Metohija?

2 A. A few.

3 Q. Did they all complete their specialist training successfully?

4 A. No, not all of them.

5 Q. Why not all of them?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. At your specialist training in Belgrade, did you have many

8 colleagues who were Serbs or from some other ethnic group?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How did they behave towards you?

11 A. Relatively well.

12 Q. And what about the hospital administration and your bosses? Did

13 they behave well towards you too?

14 A. They behaved very well.

15 Q. Where were you living during your specialist training?

16 A. I lived in a rented apartment which I was sharing with a colleague

17 of mine.

18 Q. Was that in an apartment building with other apartments, in a

19 residential block?

20 A. Yes, it was.

21 Q. Did you have good neighbourly relations with your neighbours from

22 the building, and generally, people that you came across? Were you

23 friendly?

24 A. The people you are referring to, I didn't know any one of them. I

25 believe they didn't know me either, because we didn't have any relations

1 whatsoever. We didn't introduce ourselves to each other.

2 Q. You spent most of your time doing your specialist training in the

3 hospital and in the company of your colleagues, your fellow specialist

4 trainees.

5 A. I'm sorry, I didn't get you. What do you mean?

6 Q. Well, you lived there. You had friends. Did you make friends

7 with the other people doing their specialist training, Serbs or people

8 belonging to other ethnic groups apart from the Albanians? Did you

9 socialise?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. And did you have good relations with these people?

12 A. Yes. We had relatively good relations.

13 Q. Throughout the time you spent in Belgrade, did you ever hear of an

14 Albanian having problems in Belgrade because he was an Albanian?

15 A. To tell you the truth, for as long as I stayed there, after the

16 time I was compelled to stay in the clinic, the remainder of the time I

17 spent in my apartment where I used to study the subject for which I went

18 there.

19 Q. As you spent your time in Belgrade up to 1998, did you have

20 frequent communication and contacts with your native -- with your native

21 town and friends from there and relatives? Did they visit you? Did you

22 exchange letters? Did you talk about your daily lives?

23 A. I used to communicate with my own family, my close family, through

24 telephone talks.

25 Q. During that time, that is to say from the beginning of 1998 or,

1 rather, the end of 1997 until the middle of 1998 when you completed your

2 specialist training, in that time period, did you hear anything about the

3 KLA in Kosovo?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Your friends and the members of your family didn't tell you

6 anything about that?

7 A. No, they didn't.

8 Q. So you heard nothing about that over the television, over the

9 radio, in the newspapers and so on?

10 A. No. I don't remember anything.

11 Q. So right up until mid-1998, you had heard nothing about any kinds

12 of attacks, killings, kidnappings, or anything about the KLA in Kosovo at

13 all?

14 A. No.

15 Q. So nothing about the attacks either on civilians or the police,

16 army, et cetera?

17 A. No.

18 Q. When did you arrive in Suva Reka exactly? What was the date when

19 you went back to Suva Reka?

20 A. One day after my graduation, which is 26th of June, 1998.

21 Q. Did you then at least, when you arrived in Suva Reka, hear that on

22 the 22nd of June, 1998, five kilometres away from Suva Reka, in the

23 village of Trnje, a policeman was killed, an Albanian? His name was

24 Ilijas Vranovci. Did you hear about that?

25 A. The fact that Ilijas Vranovci was taken from his home I heard

1 after I returned from Belgrade.

2 Q. Yes. He was kidnapped and killed.

3 A. I know that he was kidnapped, only that.

4 Q. And you didn't hear later on that he had been killed?

5 A. No.

6 Q. What do you think the motives of the KLA were to kidnap Ilijas

7 Vranovci?

8 JUDGE MAY: He can't answer that.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Two months later in Suva Reka, when you were there, more exactly

12 on the 17th of August, 1998, another policeman was killed. This time it

13 was a Serb. His name was Dragan Stojanovic. Do you remember that?

14 A. No.

15 Q. You don't remember?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You were in Suva Reka at the time, in August 1998?

18 A. I don't remember to have heard anything about this incident.

19 Q. How big is Suva Reka? How many inhabitants has it got?

20 A. It has about 20.000 inhabitants, the main centre.

21 Q. Yes, but Suva Reka proper.

22 A. Only Suhareka proper.

23 Q. So it's a relatively small town, and that's why I'm asking you.

24 How come you didn't hear of a policeman being killed in such a small

25 town? How come you didn't get to hear of it?

1 A. I don't know how come that I didn't. In fact, I did not hear

2 anything about the murder of the police that you mentioned.

3 Q. All right. Did you hear about the following event when on the

4 road from Suva Reka to Musutiste, Boban Vuksanovic was killed? He was the

5 municipal president and director of the medical centre. And three other

6 persons who were in the car with him were also killed.

7 A. I heard about that from people who were refugees in Albania. When

8 this event happened, I was in Albania myself. I was deported to Albania

9 by force.

10 Q. Did you know Boban Vuksanovic yourself?

11 A. Yes. Yes.

12 Q. Did he give you a job when you came to Suva Reka?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How did he behave towards you?

15 A. Relatively correct.

16 Q. Were you sorry when you heard that he'd been killed?

17 A. Not at all.

18 Q. What kind of a man was he, in your opinion; a good one or a bad

19 one?

20 A. A very bad man.

21 Q. But his conduct towards you was proper and correct, as you say?

22 A. I said relatively correct.

23 Q. Did you know any of the other three men -- three people who were

24 killed together with him in the car?

25 A. No, I didn't. I don't know how many people got killed. I heard

1 only about Boban, who got killed somewhere about -- near Sopija [phoen],

2 but I don't know the circumstances under which he was killed because, as I

3 said, I was in Albania, a refugee, myself. I heard about his killing only

4 from other refugees who used to come from Kosova to Albania, from my

5 municipality, and it was from them that I heard about this event. I don't

6 know the circumstances of his death.

7 Q. Did you hear that immediately after his killing, when an

8 investigation was carried out and when the authorities and investigating

9 judge went out on the spot to conduct an investigation, that the

10 investigating judge was also killed, and his name was Judge Janicijevic,

11 while he was on site, carrying out the investigation?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the accused is asking

13 me questions about the things that happened during the time when I was in

14 Albania. Of course I am unable to explain these things.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Witness can't help us to that.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that these questions are

17 essential, because otherwise the witness has been speaking about things

18 that he heard about and did not see himself. So it is logical for me to

19 ask him whether he heard about these brutal killings such as the head of

20 the health centre, the municipal president, and so on and so forth,

21 because I consider that that is my right.

22 JUDGE MAY: He's dealt with that. Now, can we move on, please?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. All right.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Did you hear and were you informed of the large number of

1 casualties that took -- that happened during the bombing of the convoy of

2 Albanian refugees near Prizren? On the 14th of April that was.

3 A. I heard about this event, but when it happened, I was a refugee in

4 Albania. I can only tell you about things that I learned from television

5 and can't -- don't think that anything I can say about this will help the

6 Court.

7 Q. I'm asking you this because, among other things, you said that you

8 considered NATO bombing -- the NATO bombing to be a welcome thing.

9 JUDGE MAY: Well, that's a comment.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher to show

12 these photographs, please.

13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, what are these photographs of?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The photographs show the victims of

15 this event for which the witness merely says that he has heard of it.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. He can't help us about it. You can show us the

17 photographs in due course and you can call some evidence about it, but

18 this witness can't help us. He was in Albania at that time. There's

19 nothing he can say useful about it.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness can give a de facto

21 judgement, but he can make a value judgement too. I am testing the value

22 judgement of the witness, who states that the NATO aggression and bombing

23 was welcome, and I should like him to take a look at these photographs so

24 that I can ask him whether he still considers this to be a welcome thing

25 or not.

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE MAY: No, Mr. Milosevic, we're not going to allow you to put

3 these photographs to the witness. He was in Albania at the time. He can

4 say nothing useful about it. The way to get these photographs, if you

5 want to put them into evidence, is to call evidence about them, and you

6 can adduce them in that way, but we're not going to allow you to put them

7 to the witness.

8 We'll adjourn now. It's after 4.00. We'll continue in the

9 morning.

10 Mr. Berisha, would you remember what I said earlier about not

11 speaking to anybody about your evidence until it's over. Would you be

12 back, please, at half past 9.00 to conclude your cross-examination.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I receive a technical

14 clarification? It has nothing to do with questions to the witness. I'd

15 like to get some technical things clear.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Briefly, please.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very briefly. It has to do with the

18 visit by my family. Mr. Christian Rohde explained to me that the fact

19 that I was not able to receive a visit when it was scheduled was going to

20 be compensated by the fact that I would have approval for a visit of the

21 7th of March, in the afternoon, a visit on the 7th of March, in the

22 afternoon. He told me that the Court would be sitting up until 1.00 on

23 the 7th of March, so I would have the 7th of March, that is to say,

24 Thursday afternoon, free, and then Friday, Saturday, and Sunday as well,

25 although, as you know, Sunday is always a short -- there's always a short

1 time for Sunday visits. Now, can I count on receiving that visit or not?

2 JUDGE MAY: We'll look into that and we'll see if the timetable

3 can be rearranged or not, and we'll let you know, Mr. Milosevic. Let us

4 consider it overnight.

5 We'll adjourn.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.07 p.m.,

7 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 26th day of

8 February, 2002, at 9.30 a.m.

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25