Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Public Non-Redacted Version of Previous Private Session Transcript of Witness Testimony by Order of the Trial Chamber

Page 14092

1 Monday, 9 December 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 WITNESS: MILAN BABIC [Resumed]

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

11 Q. Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Mr. Babic, during cross-examination, Mr. Milosevic spoke with you

14 about Dusan Jovic, TO commander in Glina appointed by you, and the exhibit

15 was actually tab 118 of Exhibit 352. Did Mr. Jovic actually fulfill his

16 position and did he command the TO units in Glina during any military

17 operations in 1991?

18 A. Mr. -- Dr. Dusan Jovic was appointed at the end of July 1991, but

19 he was not able to take up his positions, perform his duties, because of

20 the obstructions that were going on, first of all, in the structures in

21 Dvor, Kostajnica, Petrinja, or rather, the North Banija division. He

22 performed the function as president of the municipal Assembly of Glina.

23 That was the authority and competence he had.

24 Q. And who obstructed him taking up the position of TO commander;

25 which organisations?

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1 A. All the structures, the commander of the Central Banija, Bojan

2 Bajagic, and then the JNA units and police units in the area.

3 Q. You also appointed, on the 4th of October, 1991, Major Cupovic and

4 other reserve officers to be -- to form the TO staff in Glina.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And that's tab 134, Your Honours, from the

6 same exhibit.

7 Q. Did they actually fulfill and take up the position or were they

8 also obstructed? Do you know?

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness come closer to the microphone.

10 Thank you.

11 A. I don't remember exactly how it happened, what the events were.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

13 Q. Can you come a little bit closer to the microphone so that the

14 interpreters can hear you better.

15 Mr. Milosevic also spoke with you about Dr. Radovan Markovic, and

16 he referred to a letter to Arkan.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And this document was not tendered so far,

18 Your Honours, and therefore I would like to put it to the witness and also

19 tender it.

20 Q. Witness, please have a look at the Serbian version of this

21 document. It is a letter from Dr. Markovic to Arkan in Belgrade of the

22 25th of November, 1991, in relation to the participation of Arkan's unit

23 in the defence of Petrinja, and it says here: "We agree with the

24 proposition that members of the Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan's unit,

25 participate in fightings on the JNA and TO positions in the municipality

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1 of Petrinja. The unit will be commanded by a senior officer, and the unit

2 will be part of and under the command of the commander of the 2nd

3 Motorised Battalion of the 622nd Motorised Brigade." And I would like to

4 know from you who made this proposition that Arkan's unit participate in

5 the fighting on the JNA and TO positions. Do you know that?

6 A. I don't know. As far as I can see from here, it is Dr. Radovan

7 Markovic, president of the Municipal Assembly of Petrinja who gave his

8 permission for that and agreed to it, in fact.

9 Q. And there is also mentioned the 622nd Motorised Brigade. Is that

10 a JNA brigade or a TO unit? Do you know that?

11 A. It's a JNA brigade.

12 Q. And do you know who commanded this brigade?

13 A. I don't know exactly, but Slobodan Tarbuk was there. Whether he

14 was the commander of the brigade or the whole garrison in Petrinja, I'm

15 not quite sure. Colonel Slobodan Tarbuk, whether he was commander of the

16 brigade or the garrison, I'm not quite sure, I don't know exactly.

17 Q. There is a Bogdan Ercegovac mentioned in this letter. Do you know

18 whether he was a JNA officer or what his position was?

19 A. He was a JNA officer, I know that. As far as I know, he was

20 appointed commander of the TO in Petrinja for one particular detachment in

21 Petrinja, or rather probably. It was renamed the motorised battalion.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to speak into

23 the microphone, thank you.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

25 Q. The interpreters still have difficulties to understand you.

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1 Please speak into the microphones.

2 Did Arkan actually take part in the fighting in Petrinja in

3 November 1991, do you know that?

4 A. I don't know about that.

5 Q. In relation to this 622nd --

6 JUDGE MAY: If we are moving from the document, we should give it

7 an exhibit number first.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Prosecutor's Exhibit

9 352, tab 172.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

11 Q. In relation to the 622nd Motorised Brigade, I would like to put to

12 the witness another exhibit which is also not yet tendered.

13 It is an order of the Commander Spiro Nikolic of the 1st

14 Operational Group Command, dated 19 October, 1991, and it's placing TO

15 units under JNA units. And we have here the mentioned in this order the

16 622nd Motorised Brigade. Witness, looking at the document at the head,

17 the header and the format and the signature, is that an authentic

18 document?

19 A. Yes, at least according to what I can see here.

20 Q. And Major General Spiro Nikolic, was he the commander of the 1st

21 Operational Group Command, and where was this group command?

22 A. Yes, that was the command at Samarica.

23 Q. Mr. Milosevic, during cross-examination, put to you that you

24 forced Colonel Trbojevic to effect mobilisation in Gracac and Donji Lapac

25 and to expel all Croats from Gracac. You have already addressed the

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1 mobilisation of volunteers for the 1st Light Brigade, and we would not

2 have to comment on this any more. But my question is were Croats expelled

3 from Gracac, and if so, did you order this, or who?

4 A. From the Gracac region, the Croats were expelled, yes, during the

5 combat and fighting with the 1st Partizan Brigade and previously through

6 the operations led by Frenki Simatovic, and Mile Martic.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the last phrase.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

9 Q. Could you repeat the last phrase. The interpreters didn't hear

10 you.

11 A. Operations led by Milan Martic, and before the 1st Partizan

12 Brigade went into operation to deblock the warehouses in Svetilok [phoen],

13 and in the Gracac area, the Croatian village of Lovinac they did go into

14 operation. Frenki, or Franjo Simatovic as he was known in Gracac, and

15 Milan Martic with mortars -- with a mortar unit. They were the first to

16 open fire on the village of Lovinac, and thus expel the Croats from the

17 Gracac area, municipality.

18 Q. Were Croatian villages including Lovinac set on fire? That's what

19 you discussed with Mr. Milosevic. Were they set on fire and who did it?

20 A. Yes. The villages were set on fire. They were looted, and this

21 was done by those structures, the structures that attacked them.

22 Q. And which structures did attack them? Is that what you just

23 mentioned, Frenki?

24 A. Yes. Right.

25 Q. In relation to Kijevo, Mr. Milosevic questioned to you and put to

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1 you that there was no coordination between General Mladic and the Martic

2 police. And I would like to put to you a document.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The document which is also not yet an

4 exhibit. And it is --

5 JUDGE MAY: Do you want the last one exhibited or not, Ms.

6 Uertz-Retzlaff?

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be marked Prosecutor's

9 Exhibit 352, tab 173.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And the next exhibit that I would like to be

11 exhibited is the 16th Session of the Assembly of the Serbian People in

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina held in Banja Luka on the 12th of May, 1992.

13 JUDGE MAY: What is this?

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It is an --

15 JUDGE MAY: It's an enormous bundle of paper.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, and I only want to discuss with the

17 witness page 46 of the English, of the translation, and page 35 of the

18 Serbian version. It's just about Kijevo and what Mr. Mladic himself on

19 this session said about Kijevo. It's 37, page 37 [sic], and there's just

20 one quote.

21 Q. And Witness, for you, it's marked. And it is Mr. Mladic speaking,

22 General Mladic speaking, about what happened in Kijevo, and he says the

23 following: "The Knin Corps was successful because under a single command

24 in the zone of the Corps were the JNA, the Territorial Defence forces, and

25 Martic's police. Isn't that right, Martic? And because he --

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1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is it marked in the English at page 46?

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Page 47.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: I thought you said 46.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Sorry, page 47.

5 Q. Okay. And I continue: "And because he and I, I call him and say,

6 give me 40 policemen here at Kijevo, and you took part in the fighting,

7 isn't that right, Milan? And we did what we had planned, and we planned

8 -- and we will have artillery here, and this artillery acts."

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, from the whole document, you

10 can see that also Mr. Milan Martic is present during the Assembly meeting

11 in Banja Luka. And so General Mladic refers to him.

12 Q. Witness, were you aware that such an Assembly meeting took place

13 in Banja Luka?

14 A. I heard about it.

15 Q. And did this quote from General Mladic, did it actually reflect

16 what happened in Kijevo?

17 A. Yes, it did.

18 Q. Both in your -- I want to move now to another chapter.

19 JUDGE MAY: Exhibit this document.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Prosecutor's

21 Exhibit 352, tab 174.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

23 Q. Witness, both in your examination-in-chief and while questioned by

24 Mr. Milosevic you spoke about the appointment of the TO main staff in

25 October and November 1991 and the arrival of the officers Maksic, Kasum,

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1 and Vuletic in Knin. And Mr. Milosevic put to you that those officers

2 actually volunteered to serve in the TO. And I would like to know from

3 you when they came, when they came to Knin, did they continue to be

4 members of the JNA, or did they quit their service in the JNA?

5 A. They were on the payroll of the JNA, or rather, they were in the

6 JNA.

7 Q. And did they transfer back to the JNA or VJ at a later point in

8 time?

9 A. They went back to the army of Yugoslavia. They were transferred

10 there.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher in this relation,

12 I would like to put to the witness another document. And it is an order.

13 It's an order by Gojko Krstic, the chief of the personnel administration

14 of the VJ headquarters of the 22nd April, 1992, addressed to the TO of the

15 RSK on the deployment of 72 officers.

16 Q. And, Witness, when you look at the position, there is -- there are

17 72 people listed in this document. And on position 1, you see Kasum

18 Dusan, and on position 5 you see Aleksandar Vuletic. Are these the people

19 that arrived, and are they still on the JNA members, or rather VJ?

20 A. Yes, those are the two people.

21 Q. And looking at the document at the format, including the header

22 and the person who signs it, is this an authentic document?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And Major General Gojko Krstic, in which administration was he

25 chief? Do you know which administration of the VJ it is?

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1 A. Personnel administration.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to have this exhibited.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Prosecutor's

4 Exhibit 352, tab 175.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

6 Q. In relation to this matter, I also would like to have to the

7 witness the Exhibit -- a new exhibit as well.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] This previous document, I'd like

11 to indicate in it that it is not signed by Gojko Krstic. The signature

12 here is by somebody who says that he is a sergeant first class who is

13 signing, and not the signature of Major General Gojko Krstic. I don't see

14 Gojko Krstic's signature there, so I don't know whether the witness says

15 he recognises the signature of the sergeant first class. He can't

16 recognise the signature of General Gojko Krstic because he hasn't signed

17 his name there.

18 JUDGE MAY: We'll take note of that, Mr. Tapuskovic.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, but the witness didn't say he identifies

20 the...

21 The next document is a list of military staff of the VJ

22 temporarily deployed in the RSK TO submitted by General Torbica, commander

23 of the RSK headquarters, to Colonel Medakovic of the VJ personnel

24 administration of the 19th October, 1991.

25 Q. And looking at the document, can you comment on its authenticity?

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1 A. Yes, it is authentic. Milan Torbica was indeed the commander.

2 Q. If you look at the first person listed, it is Milan Torbica; and

3 on the first page, the 15th person listed is Dusan Kasum; and on page 3,

4 under the units in Kordun we have the first person listed as Cedomir

5 Bulat, whom you had mentioned previously as a JNA commander; and listed

6 under Lika on page 7 is Milan Suput, the person that you also mentioned

7 previously.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can that be exhibited.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Prosecutor's Exhibit

10 352, tab 176.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

12 Q. Witness, in relation to Colonel Djujic, my question would be, was

13 he also, despite his position in the TO, was he paid by the JNA?

14 A. General Djujic, I don't know exactly.

15 Q. In relation to General Mrksic, Mr. Milosevic questioned you about

16 his origin. And my question to you is despite the fact that General

17 Mrksic had family roots in the RSK, before he was appointed RSK army

18 commander, was he in the VJ, and did he continue to be a VJ officer? Do

19 you know?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In relation to the Kertes intercept, the intercept Braco-Radovan

22 Karadzic, it's tab 28 of Exhibit 352, Mr. Milosevic put to you that the

23 Vojvodina was the bread basket of the former Yugoslavia, and that you

24 cannot conclude that they were speaking about anything else than food and

25 deliveries of medicine. My question is: Was Mihajlo Kertes, whom you

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8

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12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

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1 described as the member of the MUP, Serbia, involved in eight deliveries

2 of humanitarian character? Do you know whether he ever dealt with such

3 deliveries?

4 A. I don't know about that.

5 Q. When you received humanitarian aid, who would usually organise

6 that?

7 A. It would come in through different channels, through

8 individuals --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Institutions, not channels. Interpreters'

10 correction.

11 A. -- in different ways.

12 Q. Would the MUP Serbia be involved in it, in these kind of

13 deliveries?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Given the date of the intercept, that's June 1991, did you in the

16 Krajina receive medicine, food, and blankets from Vojvodina? Do you know

17 that?

18 A. I don't remember.

19 JUDGE MAY: Can we move from there, for the record, it should be

20 noted it's not Exhibit 352. The Registry point out it's Exhibit 353, tab

21 28.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, that's correct. I'm sorry, then, I

23 misspoke.

24 Q. In relation to other -- Mr. Tapuskovic actually put to you that in

25 relation to intercepts in July and August 1991 when Mr. Karadzic and Mr.

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1 Milosevic spoke about steps to be taken and plans, he said that at that

2 time, Slovenia and Croatia were already independent and therefore why

3 should they speak about plans. My question to you is at that time, was

4 there a moratorium agreed upon so that Slovenia and Croatia postpone their

5 declaration of independence until October?

6 A. That's right. It was the Brioni agreement with the

7 representatives of the European Community, and the moratorium held true

8 for three months.

9 Q. In relation to the Mirkovci oil wells, you said to a question of

10 Mr. Milosevic that oil was produced in Mirkovci and then processed in

11 Pancevo. Pancevo, is that in Serbia near Belgrade?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. Who was in charge of the Pancevo refinery? Do you know that?

14 A. I don't know exactly who was the manager. It was a state-owned or

15 socially owned company, oil refinery.

16 Q. Of Serbia?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. You mentioned that quotas of the processed oil for RSK and RS

19 existed. Who decided about the quotas?

20 A. As far as I know, Mikelic, Stanisic, or rather, the DB and

21 Mikelic.

22 Q. And that is the dispute they had you referred to during your

23 testimony about the quotas?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. Mr. Milosevic put to you in relation to the army, the involvement

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1 of the JNA in Croatia, he put to you that in relation to the involvement

2 of the JNA in Croatia, the JNA intervened only for two matters, that is,

3 to separate the clashing parties, and to deblock their own barracks. Is

4 this a proper description of their conduct in the Serb-controlled regions,

5 in the SAOs?

6 A. The JNA intervened in the first place in order to deploy in the

7 SAO regions, and then beyond them, and to keep that territory in the state

8 that was being created by Milosevic.

9 Q. Was the JNA in summer 1991 a neutral force that protected both the

10 Serbs and the Croats equally, or did it side with one side?

11 A. It was on the Serb side; that is, on the side of Milosevic.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, I see my half hour is over.

13 JUDGE MAY: Are you asking for a little longer?

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No.

15 JUDGE MAY: You aren't. Good. Thank you very much.

16 Mr. Babic, that does conclude your evidence. Thank you for coming

17 to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go now.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, there are two technical matters

21 left open. Two exhibits that Mr. Milosevic wanted to tender were marked

22 for identification, and it's, first of all, the list, the list with the

23 5.000 names. And the problem that the Prosecution has with this list, it

24 is actually the following: You cannot see from the list who produced it,

25 when, and on which basis, what is the foundation of this list. And I

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1 think it should be only marked for identification until this foundation is

2 laid.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we'll certainly do that.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And in relation to the book, I have to say

5 that also the Prosecution would like to tender in the course of this trial

6 a few books without the author being present. And I would say if

7 Mr. Milosevic would accept that, too, we are willing to accept this book

8 as well. But it would be -- we wouldn't do it without any discussion on

9 this matter.

10 JUDGE MAY: I think we have doubts about books because of what

11 they contain and the difficulties of saying what status they should have.

12 It may be convenient if we mark it for identification, and at a suitable

13 time, when you have the books that you have in mind, we can perhaps look

14 at them all together, apply the same principles to them all.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honours. That's convenient.

16 MR. NICE: Our next witness has protection, and accordingly, may

17 we go into closed session briefly. And when we have gone into closed

18 session, there's a couple of short administration matters that I'd like to

19 raise as well.

20 [Private session ordered for public release,18 December 2002 (D18520-D18519)]

21 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session for now.

22 MR. NICE: Thank you, Your Honour. As I say, the next witness has

23 protection, so the appropriate arrangements will have to be made before he

24 can be brought in. But it comes as no surprise to you to know that I am

25 very concerned about the timetable position, and you may be assisted to

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1 know that I am preparing a report with some proposals that I hope to have

2 available for you, if not today, tomorrow. I am going to serve it

3 initially confidentially in order not to publicly prejudge any issues, but

4 of course, the contents of the document, or most of the contents, can, if

5 the Chamber so decides, be made public.

6 I'm going to be taking evidence from now on obviously as quickly

7 as I can, to some degree omitting anything that isn't absolutely relevant

8 but would otherwise be part of the background. And I hope that's going to

9 be acceptable, but it's necessary in view of the time pressures that

10 exist.

11 With that in mind, and subject to our having to interpose

12 Mr. Blewitt if we run out of evidence -- and I don't want to do that

13 because he's actually rather unwell today, but it may be possible to do

14 that if we run out of evidence today, for example. With that in mind, the

15 witness after this, who comes from Helsinki Watch, is a witness whose

16 statement of, I think, 15 or 16 pages is coherent, logical, chronological,

17 and in reality better than any summary could be. And on this occasion, I

18 would ask the Chamber to consider reading the statement in full. It's

19 different than the statement of most witnesses which lack coherence and

20 chronological logic, and I would ask you to take the statement in advance

21 as the summary. And if you're prepared to do that, or at least consider

22 doing that, it would then, I think, enable me to deal more swiftly with

23 her evidence simply by dealing really with the exhibits that she produces

24 which are both reports from her organisation and also correspondence to

25 and from the accused or those representing him, all of which, of course,

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Page 14108

1 go to the issue of notice.

2 JUDGE MAY: Can you help us with the name, please.

3 MR. NICE: Laber.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, described as the next witness. What you are

5 proposing is that we would read the statement.

6 MR. NICE: Yes.

7 JUDGE MAY: So the sooner you provide us with a copy, the better,

8 please.

9 MR. NICE: That can be done, I think -- that will be done by the

10 break.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. And then we would read that, and then you would

12 simply be taking part of it --

13 MR. NICE: Absolutely. I mean, some -- this could apply to some

14 other statements. It doesn't apply to most, because most statements from

15 the fact witnesses simply cannot be prepared at the time with an eye to

16 these proceedings efficiently, and they lack logic and chronology. But

17 this one, professional, as it were, witness -- professional person

18 , rather --

19 JUDGE MAY: So it wouldn't be a summary on this occasion.

20 MR. NICE: It's not.

21 JUDGE MAY: Simply have the statement -- I'm sure we could do

22 that.

23 MR. NICE: Thank you very much. As to this forthcoming witness,

24 it may help, since we are turning to a new area, if we look at the map -

25 I'll place it on the overhead projector in due course - page 23 is what's

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1 most helpful. If I just hold up my copy, it's there, right-hand page,

2 top. You can see Baranja written across the area. And as the witness

3 will explain to us - and I hope he's going to be brought in - there's a

4 triangular area in which we are interested marked by the border with

5 Hungary at the north, the Danube on the east, and then the Drava on the

6 south. And we'll see the significance of all this in due course. On the

7 eastern edge, there were only the two bridges that existed, the one Batina

8 in the north, and then the one at Erdut on the southeast, east of

9 Osijek. And that really defines the area.

10 JUDGE MAY: What is the northern one?

11 MR. NICE: Batina. It does actually show that the bridges cross.

12 On the Drava there was, until it was destroyed, a bridge at Osijek, and

13 you can see that marked on this map.

14 The witness has the benefit of voice distortion, and we will have

15 to be very careful about this witness because, as his summary reveals, he

16 still lives in the area. Your Honours can see the area is a very confined

17 one.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes, let the witness take the declaration.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

21 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Take a seat.

23 WITNESS: WITNESS C-025

24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 MR. NICE: Would the usher be so good as to show this piece of

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Page 14110

1 paper to the witness.

2 Examined by Mr. Nice:

3 Q. Witness, would you look at this piece of paper, please, and say

4 yes if the details on it are correct.

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. NICE: May the witness be known throughout these proceedings

7 as C-025.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be marked Prosecutor's

9 Exhibit 356 under seal, confidential.

10 MR. NICE:

11 Q. A short opening passage in private session, with the Court's

12 leave, and then a passage in open session.

13 Witness C-025, are you Serb by ethnicity, born in 1959 in Knezevi

14 Vinogradi? Did you do national service, did you have university

15 education?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Between July and October 1991, did you serve in the Territorial

18 Defence of Knezevi Vinogradi dealing with security matters? And in

19 October 1991, did you join the DB or state security in Beli Manastir --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- staying there until May 1993?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You then got a job as a guard in the natural reserve in Baranja.

24 You were mobilised in the Baranja SVK intelligence centre in Beli

25 Manastir. During the conflict you were called up to serve as a military

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1 policeman. But in January 1996, did you start to work for the RSK

2 customs, and did you continue to work for the customs notwithstanding

3 reversion to Croatian control? Do you work there still living in the

4 region?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. NICE: May we now go into open session.

7 [Open session]

8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

9 MR. NICE: May I explain, now that we're in open session, that

10 this witness is Witness C-025, who has already taken the solemn

11 declaration. And although I think the witness has yet to look at this

12 particular map, may I invite him please to be shown on the overhead

13 projector page 23 of our atlas, Exhibit 336. And it's the right-hand

14 page, and it's the top left-hand half of the right-hand page, please.

15 That's perfect. Thank you very much. Little bit to the left. A bit

16 further to the left. Perfect. Thank you.

17 Q. Witness C-025, you're looking at a map with which you may not be

18 familiar, having prepared to give evidence with a different map. But look

19 at this map, please. Does this map show the area of Baranja? Do we see

20 it to be bordered at the north by the boundary with Hungary; to the east

21 by the boundary with Serbia marked substantially by the Danube River; and

22 to the south through Osijek by the Drava River?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. At the material time with which we are concerned, when the

25 boundary with Hungary was closed, were there two bridges passing into

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1 Serbia on the east, one at Batina in the north, and the other one at Erdut

2 immediately east of Osijek to the south of this area of Baranja?

3 A. Yes, but not in Baranja. Erdut is not in the area of Baranja.

4 Q. Thank you. Was there at one stage a bridge at Osijek? Did it

5 become destroyed? If so, when?

6 A. Could you please clarify the question. Across which river?

7 Because Osijek had a bridge across the Drava River.

8 Q. Yes, across that river.

9 A. There was a bridge. It was destroyed by the Croatian police or

10 army sometime in the summer of 1991.

11 Q. Paragraph 3: Before the conflict, C-025, was the multi-ethnic SDP

12 popular in Baranja?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did the SDS party grow in influence over time, and did that match

15 in any way the growth of the HDZ on the Croatian side?

16 MR. NICE: Could the usher just leave the map on the overhead

17 projector. Thank you very much.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was this area visited by any radical Serbian politicians; and if

20 so, can you name them?

21 A. Among the radical politicians, there was Vojislav Seselj who came,

22 and Mr. Paroski would also come.

23 Q. What, if any, influence or effect did their visits have on

24 interethnic relations?

25 A. The very purpose of their visit was national awakening among the

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Page 14114

1 Serbian people in Baranja.

2 Q. Did that have any effect on the non-Serbs in the area?

3 A. At that very point in time, that is, during the visits themselves,

4 not so much. But later on, during the conflict, yes.

5 Q. By the first half of August 1991, what measure of control did

6 Serbs have over the area of Baranja?

7 A. Most of Baranja was in the hands of the Serbs. A village in the

8 immediate vicinity of Osijek, Bilje, was still not under Serb control.

9 Q. Was there a meeting of the Serb Territorial Defence in Jagodnjak,

10 which we can see south of Beli Manastir and north-west of Osijek?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you learn of what happened at that meeting; and if so, what

13 was the rank or position, but do not name the person, the rank or position

14 of the person who informed you?

15 A. I learned about that meeting from the commander of the local staff

16 of which I, too, was a member. The meeting was held in Jagodnjak.

17 Representatives of all TO staffs from Baranja and representatives of the

18 SDS attended that meeting.

19 Q. What was the discussion at the meeting? What influence, if any,

20 did the political party the SDS have at the meeting?

21 A. The meeting was linked to the organisation of the attack on the

22 village of Bilje. So it was of an operative military nature, whereas

23 representatives of the SDS, that is, two representatives of the top

24 leadership of that party, attended the meeting purely to get information

25 and to familiarise themselves with the operation and to assist in the

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1 organisation as sufficient men needed to be recruited to participate in

2 the operation.

3 Q. Okay. We'll find Bilje on the map just a little north of Osijek.

4 At the time of this meeting, could you estimate what percentage of

5 local Territorial Defence commanders were members of the SDS party?

6 A. Percentage-wise, perhaps around 80 per cent of the staff

7 commanders were in the SDS party.

8 Q. I want to turn to another topic, Crisis Staffs. But before I do

9 so, in summary, please, the ethnic composition of Baranja before the

10 conflict and the ethnic composition by estimation by mid-1991, please.

11 A. Baranja is a multi-ethnic region with three ethnicities

12 represented, the Croatian, Serbian, and Hungarian having roughly an equal

13 share. After the outbreak of the conflict, this ratio was changed in

14 favour of the Serbs, which means that the non-Serbs left Baranja.

15 Q. Would you be in a position to estimate the percentage of the

16 population that was Serb by that time?

17 A. As the non-Serbs left Baranja, so the Serbs from the Osijek area

18 came in to Baranja so that the percentage of Serbs -- there were 30 per

19 cent to begin with. But the percentage increased more and more

20 afterwards.

21 Q. The Crisis Staffs, the Chamber may be familiar with this, but in

22 case they are not, a word from you about them. Did Crisis Staffs have a

23 peacetime and proper function? If so, what was it?

24 A. The Crisis Staffs were set up in peacetime, and their task was to

25 give assistance to the population and citizens in case of elemental

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1 disasters such as floods, droughts, et cetera. So to assist the

2 population in jeopardy.

3 Q. By the time of and in the conflict, did the SDS have any say or

4 influence over the appointment of presidents of local Crisis Staffs?

5 A. No.

6 Q. I may come back to that. But let's move on to this: As non-Serbs

7 were leaving the area, did decisions have to be made about their real

8 estate and other property? If so, who dealt with it?

9 A. Yes. The property that was left behind was placed at the

10 disposal, or rather taken over by the Crisis Staffs, and the procedure for

11 this was as follows: The immovables were sealed and the property was

12 listed, recorded.

13 Q. How was it allocated, and were there incoming Serbs from other

14 parts of Croatia who had to be accommodated?

15 A. Yes. That same property, the property that had been sealed and

16 listed, was given to other Serbs from Croatia who came in to the area.

17 Both individually and in organised fashion.

18 Q. Did this influx of Serbs from elsewhere and the allocation of

19 property to them result in any consequences or anxieties for the non-Serbs

20 remaining in the area?

21 A. The greater influx of Serbs from Croatia took place towards the

22 end of 1991. Western Slavonia, that is, from Western Slavonia, the Serbs

23 were coming in to Baranja. And as I said, they were accommodated in the

24 houses that had been left empty and facilities. There were villages in

25 which these Serbs, Serb refugees, became the majority, the majority

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1 population. And that is where the problems arose with the long-standing

2 locals, non-Serbs, who had remained in those places. Usually they were

3 elderly persons whose children had left and gone to Croatia and they had

4 stayed on to look after the property.

5 Q. Insofar as those people suffered any problems, whether of

6 harassment or worse, did the local Serb authorities take any steps to

7 protect them or to control such harassment or whatever?

8 A. For the first few months, no, they did not. The first few months

9 in which these sort of clashes occurred, violence was tolerated.

10 Q. Turning now to the Territorial Defence and very briefly, as the

11 ethnic composition changed, was there a change in the chain of command or

12 the effective chain of command of the Territorial Defence for Baranja?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was it originally responsive to authorities in Zagreb? Did that

15 position change?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did it indeed cease to become responsive to Zagreb; and if so, to

18 whom was it responsive thereafter?

19 A. The Territorial Defence of Baranja, on its territory, received a

20 superior command, and that was the JNA.

21 Q. Was there any pattern of replacement of local Territorial Defence

22 commanders on political grounds?

23 A. Well, the pattern was that the most suitable individual would be

24 looked for to implement the policy. It wasn't essential whether they had

25 any previous military knowledge or education; it was purely based on

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1 political rating.

2 Q. And political acceptability being judged by what approach to the

3 problem? What was required of these military commanders by the political

4 leadership?

5 A. Talking about the local commanders, the commanders of the local TO

6 staffs, which meant that the basic prerequisite was for the person to be a

7 Serb or rather a member of the SDS.

8 Q. In the course of the conflict generally, was war activity in

9 Baranja itself very limited, and if so can you tell the learned Judges at

10 which sites there was real fighting, site or sites?

11 A. Well, there was real fighting on two occasions in the Baranja

12 region. First, the first battle was fought over the place called Bilje,

13 which is where the Serbs attacked in order to take control of the village

14 of Bilje. And this took place at the end of August 1991.

15 At the beginning of 1992, however, the Croatian army launched a

16 breakthrough operation on the Baranja territory along the axis and in the

17 direction of the village of Torjanci, which was the second battle that

18 took place in Baranja, along with a few other incidents and attempted

19 attacks on border huts along the border north-west of Baranja, in the area

20 -- or rather, towards the Hungarian border and the Drava River.

21 MR. NICE: Your Honours, Torjanci is just visible on the overhead

22 projector because it's on the fold of the page, and it's immediately to

23 the left of Petrovo Selo, top, left-hand corner of the area we're

24 concerned with.

25 As always, it's in the fold of the map. Places always are.

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1 Q. Apart from those incidents of fighting, Witness C-025, was there

2 any sporadic or regular looting of property in this area?

3 A. There was looting of property, yes. At the beginning, it was more

4 intense and it lessened afterwards as the situation calmed down and as the

5 property was listed. The looting lost its strength.

6 Q. What part, if any, did local Territorial Defence commanders play

7 in the looting?

8 A. There were individual cases where the commanders were involved

9 because they had at their disposal the means of transport which, under

10 those circumstances, was vital. I'm talking about trucks and similar

11 vehicles. So that when the first front lines were taken, in the villages

12 where they were accommodated, in the houses and property that had been

13 left behind when the people had left, they would take it away, take that

14 property away.

15 Q. Can I deal now with the degree to which local Serbs in the Baranja

16 area were armed. Was there a pattern of local Serbs obtaining weapons?

17 If so, when and from whom?

18 A. Yes. That's right. Arming systematically started when the

19 Plitvice Lakes events took place, and the occurrences in Borovo Selo,

20 which means sometime in May 1991 onwards. And illegally, through illegal

21 transports, weapons were brought into the village of Jagodnjak, and then

22 further distribution of weapons was conducted through the members of the

23 SDS, and it was distributed in the other places.

24 MR. NICE: The Chamber can find Jagodnjak north-west of Osijek and

25 effectively due south of Beli Manastir.

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1 Q. Did you yourself, Witness C-025, obtain a weapon? If so, from

2 what category of person? Don't be specific as to any location.

3 A. I received it from a member of the SDS. I was invited to go to

4 his home and fetch the weapon.

5 Q. When you went there, did you see any other weapons? If so, what

6 types of weapons did you see?

7 A. Yes, I did see weapons. Usually infantry-type weapons with a few

8 hand-held Zolja-type rocket launchers.

9 Q. From where did you understand those weapons to have come?

10 A. Apart from those rocket launchers, all the other weapons were out

11 of date, outdated weapons. That is to say, weapons that had been

12 manufactured at some previous date from some military stockpiles. They

13 weren't up-to-date state-of-the-art infantry weapons; they were

14 old-fashioned mostly.

15 Q. If not from Baranja itself, from which region or state had this

16 collection of weapons come, to your understanding?

17 A. It came from Yugoslavia, or rather, from Serbia.

18 Q. I'll return to paragraph 14, if and when we next go into private

19 session.

20 Paragraph 15: By the end of July 1991, was there any JNA presence

21 in the Baranja area? If so, where?

22 A. Yes, there was. The JNA was present in two locations. It was

23 permanently stationed -- there was a unit permanently stationed in Beli

24 Manastir, and another unit on the bridge between Baranja and Serbia, or

25 rather, in the village of Batina; on the bridge itself and up above the

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1 village as a protection to the bridge.

2 Q. The unit based in Beli Manastir, what sort of unit was that and

3 where did it come from?

4 A. That was a unit which provided security along the state border

5 towards the Republic of Hungary.

6 Q. Do you know where the -- what sort of unit was it? Was it a

7 mechanised brigade or something different?

8 A. It was an infantry unit, but when the conflict broke out, it was

9 reinforced with some armoured personnel carriers and so on.

10 Q. And from where had they come? Do you know?

11 A. They had come in from Yugoslavia.

12 Q. By "Yugoslavia," do you mean Serbia?

13 A. Yes, I mean Serbia, that's right. At that time, to all intents

14 and purposes, the country was still Yugoslavia.

15 Q. At the end of September 1991, was the local Serb Territorial

16 Defence commander a man Borivoje Dobrokes, or Dobrokes?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Just yes or no, did you discover or see him to be assisted by

19 officers from outside Baranja? If so, how many, give us their rank and

20 origins.

21 A. Yes, I did. There were officers from the Yugoslav army, or rather

22 the JNA as it was at the time. And they dealt with organisational

23 problems for the TO staff and headquarters in Baranja itself. They were

24 high-ranking officers, and their rank was colonel.

25 Q. From which town had they come?

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1 A. I know that one of them was from Belgrade and that he was a

2 lecturer at one of the high military schools in Belgrade.

3 Q. Following the Vance Plan and the withdrawal of the JNA from

4 Baranja, were any JNA or Serbian-origin officers left in the area?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did they serve in any sense or way with the local Serb Territorial

7 Defence?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did they have any other connection with Baranja itself?

10 A. Well, perhaps a small portion of it did, either family ties or

11 others. But most of them did not have any connection.

12 Q. We've now dealt with various component parts of the way of life as

13 affected by the conflict. Could you in a few sentences, for the learned

14 Judges, help us with what life was like. You've told us about the two

15 areas of real conflict. Was life normal? Did businesses go on? Did

16 farming get done throughout the period of the conflict, or not?

17 A. As for life at that time in Baranja, we couldn't say that life was

18 normal because of the circumstances themselves. War was looming, and it

19 was autumn. Baranja is an agricultural area, a farming area. So it was a

20 time of crop collection. And the conflict escalated at that time so that

21 this made things rather difficult and the crops were taken in late. And

22 it was not done properly. And this was later reflected on the situation

23 in the whole region. Supplies were only possible through the bridge in

24 Batina. That was the only physical link with Serbia and the other

25 territories, and that is where goods came and went from mostly.

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1 Q. Water and electricity, what was their availability?

2 A. As for electricity, the lines went towards Croatia. A compromise

3 was struck between the TO staff in Baranja and the Croatian side so that

4 electrical power could come in. And they promised not to attack the

5 economic facilities or touch the economic facilities, those that were in

6 the reach of the JNA or Serbian army.

7 Q. And finally, a couple of homey as it were examples, with the

8 change of ethnic composition, would people still be able to meet on a

9 multi-ethnic basis in public places like bars, or would there be any

10 change in behaviour? And socially, did people change their behaviour so

11 far as dealing with other ethnicities is concerned?

12 A. Now, whether we can say generally speaking that this took place,

13 well, we could, but that depended on the environment itself. And as we

14 said that Baranja was a multi-ethnic area, in the areas in which the Serbs

15 had become the vast majority, situations of that type did arise from time

16 to time. But in the other areas where the population remained mixed, this

17 was not as evident. There was not so much evidence of polarisation on an

18 ethnic basis.

19 MR. NICE: May we go into private session for paragraphs 14 and 18

20 to 20.

21 [Private session ordered for public release,18 December 2002 (D18520-D18519)]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session.

23 MR. NICE:

24 Q. Reverting to the business of arming the Serbs of Baranja, when you

25 were in due course a DB operative, did you discover there information that

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1 told you more about the circumstances in which that arming had taken

2 place?

3 A. Yes. I did learn more about it. Quite a lot more with respect to

4 arming and weapons.

5 Q. And where had the arms come from, who had organised their supply?

6 A. The arms were coming in from the Yugoslavia across the Batina

7 bridge in illegal transports, illegal shipments, with some less attractive

8 goods. What happened was that it was sent in the feed, animal fodder and

9 similar products. And the people it was sent to in Baranja was, according

10 to my later information when I became aware of what a collaborato meant,

11 these persons were linked to KOG, the KOG. And it turned out that they

12 were all former associates or collaborators of the KOG

13 counter-intelligence group, and they had the privilege of having the

14 weapons addressed to them so that they should continue distributing them

15 further.

16 Q. Linked to KOG, but who had actually been sending the weapons? Did

17 you know that?

18 A. If we're talking about KOG, then we're talking about military

19 weapons, weapons originating from the military, that is to say, from

20 Yugoslavia.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Why are we in private session now?

22 JUDGE MAY: [Previous interpretation continues] ... identify the

23 witness as to who he was because of his connection with this organisation.

24 Is that right, Mr. Nice?

25 MR. NICE: Yes, it's to do with his role in the DB which I'm

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1 turning to in paragraph 18.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

3 MR. NICE:

4 Q. The information you've just been giving us, C-025, came from your

5 work for the state security centre of Beli Manastir, the DB, which, as you

6 have already explained to us, started in October 1991. When you started

7 working for the DB, did it exist or was it a complete new and fledgling

8 organisation?

9 A. Yes, it was.

10 Q. When it started, what sort of people were recruited, apart from

11 yourself, to work for it? Were they people of good character or

12 otherwise?

13 A. Well, there wasn't a cliche according to which people were

14 selected. Some of them imposed themselves, others were called to become

15 members. There were different structures, from criminals up until

16 well-intentioned, honest men.

17 Q. How many criminals and how serious criminals were involved at the

18 start, to your knowledge?

19 A. There were two serious criminals, actually; they were murderers.

20 But there were petty criminals, too, thieves who, when the service was

21 filtered later on, they were thrown out.

22 Q. The role --

23 A. When the service was scanned, they were thrown out.

24 Q. The role of the DB that you joined and that was being formed, what

25 was its function, for example, in relation to Osijek, and what was its

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1 function in relation to or in conjunction with Yugoslavia border guards?

2 A. Well, the role of the service itself was to collect information

3 from the territory of Croatia, collecting intelligence, and everything

4 that could assist and which was linked to the movements of the Croatian

5 army with respect to mobilisation, dismissals, and so on. All this was

6 vital information, vital intelligence, that we collected by working in the

7 field. And it was my task to follow the movements and collect

8 intelligence on the citizens of Baranja who were communicating with their

9 families or parts of their families, family members who had left Baranja,

10 fled from it.

11 Q. Did your work take you outside Baranja to work in Serbia at the

12 border between Serbia and Hungary, which we may not see on this map but

13 you can indicate where it is.

14 A. Yes, it did. My work was mostly conducted on the border crossing

15 of Backi Brijeg between Serbia and Hungary which is where there was the

16 greatest frequency of people crossing who were interesting to us.

17 Q. And we can see that on the map. It's just at the top just east of

18 Baranja itself but in the territory of Serbia so which access would have

19 to be gained by crossing the bridge, I think, at Batina.

20 Can you tell us, please, Witness C-025, was there a basically

21 two-way movement of people, those leaving Serbia going out through Batina

22 and around through Backi Brijeg, and then anti-clockwise through Hungary

23 back to Croatia, and was there movement going the other way clockwise

24 through Hungary and through Backi Brijeg in to Baranja?

25 A. The movement of persons was virtually one way, from Baranja to

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1 Hungary, or according to our information from Hungary to Croatia.

2 However, the coming of persons from Croatia to Baranja was very rare. A

3 few persons did travel to the territory of Yugoslavia, but to Baranja

4 itself, because of the possibility of the escalation of the conflict, they

5 didn't come, they didn't stay.

6 MR. NICE: I see the time, Your Honour. I will see if

7 Mr. Blewitt's going to be fit to give evidence, because I think we will

8 reach him, and I'll see if the statements are yet available for the next

9 witness.

10 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

11 MR. NICE: That will be done at the end of the break.

12 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now for 20 minutes. Witness C-025,

13 don't speak to anybody, please, during your evidence about it until it's

14 over, and that includes members of the Prosecution, too. We'll adjourn

15 now.

16 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

19 MR. NICE: Your Honour, we are, I think, still in private session.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.

21 MR. NICE:

22 Q. Last sentence of paragraph 18, Witness C-025, were other members

23 of the DB from Beli Manastir working in Vojvodina? If so, what were they

24 doing?

25 A. Mostly all operatives had the possibility to move around within

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1 the territory of Vojvodina as well as the operatives of the Sombor centre

2 in Baranja, and they were mainly investigating matters linked to the

3 accommodation of refugees and collecting information from persons who had

4 settled in the territory of Vojvodina and who had fled from Croatia.

5 Q. Turning, paragraph 19, to the Sombor Serbia DB representatives,

6 did those DB feature extensively in your area?

7 A. They did work intensively.

8 Q. As to the chain of command or reporting, was there any reporting

9 from the DB centre of Beli Manastir to Belgrade? If so, to which

10 ministry?

11 A. The centre of state security in Beli Manastir did cooperate with

12 the centre in Belgrade. There were physical contacts between the two.

13 Our reports, both written and oral, were carried by Mr. Rade Kostic from

14 Beli Manastir to Sombor and from Beli Manastir to Belgrade.

15 Q. We'll turn to Mr. Kostic in a minute. First, equipment: Did you

16 receive any equipment, your DB, from outside the territory? If so, from

17 where?

18 A. We received a tape recorder to intercept secret conversations.

19 Some were left behind on our territory, sealed, and we also received a

20 small Uher tape recorder from operatives of the KOG, the

21 counter-intelligence group.

22 Q. Had Radoslav Kostic been born in Baranja?

23 A. I'm not sure about that.

24 Q. At the time that he became significant, was he from Serbia or from

25 somewhere else?

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1 A. Just before the outbreak of the war itself, Radoslav Kostic worked

2 in the MUP of Croatia. And he was relocated from the village of Darda,

3 where he was commander of the police station, to Belgrade.

4 Q. How influential a man was he? What activities was he known to be

5 engaged in?

6 A. He was highly influential. He took part in the arming of certain

7 individuals, that is, people who were ranked highly in the politics and in

8 MUP with rare weapons, such as automatic Hecklers, with silencers, with

9 optical sights and expensive pistols and revolvers. He would come to the

10 territory of Baranja very frequently in luxury cars, in heavy-duty

11 vehicles which often had police registration plates. He would enter

12 Baranja without any special permission. When the regime of permissions

13 was introduced, he didn't need any such permission to be able to move

14 freely. So he was ranked very highly among the politicians and in MUP

15 circles.

16 Q. He subsequently died, I think, in Velika Kladusa. Did you

17 discover anything about the circumstances of that death?

18 A. I learned that he was killed, that he was hit in spite of -- right

19 next to his flak jacket.

20 Q. Was this in the course of a named operation?

21 A. I'm not sure I know the name of the operation, but he headed a

22 team of mercenaries who were waging war in the service of Fikret Abdic

23 against the 5th Corps.

24 Q. Finally, this part of closed or private session testimony, the

25 military intelligence centre in Beli Manastir sent reports where and

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1 received orders from where?

2 A. The centre of the military intelligence service in Beli Manastir,

3 through the division command, would send coded messages to the second

4 administration in Belgrade.

5 Q. Was there any connection --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

7 MR. NICE:

8 Q. Was there any role in the reporting or receiving of orders for the

9 Slavonija Baranja Corps in Vukovar?

10 A. Through them, we would receive responses to our written reports

11 that were addressed to Belgrade, and via Vukovar we would receive replies

12 because Vukovar was our superior command.

13 Q. Did you or your boss or both of you go to Belgrade for meetings at

14 all? If so, with whom did you meet?

15 A. My boss usually went. I went with him on one occasion. And we

16 Lieutenant-Colonel Knezevic who was the chief of the centre in Knin. We

17 met in Belgrade in connection with certain arrangements, in connection

18 with me signing a contract, a professional contract, with the army of

19 Krajina.

20 MR. NICE: Can we go briefly into open session.

21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

23 MR. NICE:

24 Q. In the second half of 1991, was there a pattern of non-Serbs in

25 Baranja being arrested? If so, in what circumstances and for what

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Page 14132

1 reasons?

2 A. At the beginning of the conflict, arrests were very frequent.

3 There were no special criteria or rules in that respect. People --

4 non-Serbs were mostly arrested for various reasons, among others, their

5 wealth or their affiliation with the HDZ, or because of certain unsettled

6 accounts from the past of a legal nature or purely personal nature.

7 Anyone who carried weapons would arrest others. And then towards the end

8 of September and the beginning of October, as time went on, these arrests

9 were reduced. Actually, a state -- the rule of law was established in the

10 area.

11 Q. Until the return to that rule of law, where were these people

12 detained? How were they treated?

13 A. The arrested people were taken to a Detention Centre in the SUP

14 building in Beli Manastir where more or less all of them were mistreated

15 physically and mentally. And then from that Detention Centre, they were

16 sent to Dalj or Borovo Selo to be exchanged for captured persons on the

17 Croatian side.

18 Q. That exchange, where it occurred, would have involved passage over

19 one or other of the bridges at Batina or Erdut. Would that be correct?

20 A. The question isn't quite clear to me. Exchange? There were never

21 exchanges on any of those bridges.

22 Q. Very well. My error. You've spoken of the exchange of these

23 people. In the course of the exchange, would they have had to pass over

24 one or other of those bridges in transports?

25 A. During the transport from Beli Manastir to Dalj or Borovo Selo, at

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Page 14134

1 Batina, at the Batina bridge, they had to leave Baranja, and then to

2 enter the eastern parts of the territory of the Republic of Srpska

3 Krajina and on to Dalj and Borovo Selo. They had to cross the bridge

4 twice at Erdut the second time.

5 Q. At each of those bridges, were there representatives of Yugoslavia

6 or Serbia who would have been in a position to see the transports and to

7 discover what was on the transports?

8 A. In view of the fact that both bridges were protected on the

9 Krajina side, by the Krajina police, and on the Yugoslav side, by the

10 Yugoslav police, which also controlled the crossing of each persons. So I

11 think that they were able to see what was going on.

12 Q. Approximately how many people, to your knowledge, were arrested

13 and transferred or intended to be transferred in that way?

14 A. According to my information, which is not too precise, about 50 to

15 80 people were arrested and transported for the purpose of exchange during

16 that period.

17 Q. Of those people, 50 to 80, were there any who were subsequently

18 not accounted for and not seen again?

19 A. Yes. Quite a large number of the people intended to be exchanged

20 were never exchanged.

21 Q. Did you obtain information later as to what happened to them?

22 A. Later we learned that those people were executed. Or rather, some

23 were thrown into the Danube River; some were buried in mass graves.

24 Q. And finally on this topic, what was the particular vehicle or type

25 of vehicle in which they were transported?

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Page 14135

1 A. The vehicle was adjusted -- it was really used for the transport

2 of forestry workers, like a lorry, which instead of a tarpaulin had a kind

3 of container like a minibus, something like that.

4 MR. NICE: May we go into private session for the last time to

5 deal with matters between paragraphs 23 and 28.

6 [Private session ordered for public release,18 December 2002 (D18520-D18519)]

7 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session.

8 MR. NICE:

9 Q. Witness C-025, because you were a local person and because people

10 were known to you, are you able to give us the names of some of those

11 people who to your knowledge were transported but who have not been seen

12 since?

13 A. I know about Karlo Raic, Erne Baca, from Kotlina; Rudolf Jukic,

14 from Bilje; Mihajlo Simun, from Knezevi Vinogradi; Zelember Ivan, from

15 Batina. There may be some others whose names I cannot recall just now.

16 Those were people that were arrested and transported to be exchanged but

17 never were exchanged, in fact.

18 Q. I'll ask you about one more family name; Zemljak.

19 A. Yes, Pavao Zemljak and his son, they are from Beli Manastir. The

20 man was a secondary school teacher.

21 MR. NICE: Your Honour, paragraph 24 is something that I'm going

22 to deal with without producing a document. But it seems to me important

23 for reasons that I'll come to in another setting that material of this

24 type should probably be referred to by us on certain occasions lest it's

25 overlooked by the accused.

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1 Q. Just yes or no, please, to this, Witness C-025: In the course of

2 being prepared to give evidence, have you been shown a document which

3 identifies one of those missing people, Simun Mihajlo, and associates his

4 arrest with a commander of the Knezevi Vinogradi Territorial Defence

5 bearing your name? Just yes or no.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In fact, did you have anything to do with the arrest or detention

8 of Simun Mihajlo?

9 A. No.

10 Q. I turn to Vukovar Ovcara.

11 JUDGE KWON: Before that, could you help us that how the witness

12 came to know the missing persons, like Zelember, in what way? How did you

13 know they were arrested and transferred to Dalj or Borovo Selo?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were several reports about the

15 arrest of these people and their transfer. And I learned about them when

16 I started working in the Centre for State Security. In those days, we had

17 a lot of contacts with persons from virtually all the villages in the area

18 of Baranja who would come to see us either to complain or to seek

19 assistance. And in those conversations, we learned a lot about the

20 persons who had been arrested. We also learned about this through

21 operative work in the area of Hungary where families would unite, Buhac

22 [phoen], a place in Hungary, through the Red Cross. People were being

23 searched, reported as missing, so families were inquiring about the

24 destiny of such persons that were missing.

25 JUDGE KWON: Did you read the reports about these persons, missing

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Page 14137

1 persons, including Zelember, Zemljak, Jukic?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

3 JUDGE KWON: So you heard about them from their families or

4 relatives, not from your people?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the question.

6 The people I worked with. I don't quite understand your question when you

7 said "your people."

8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, people who worked with you. You heard the --

9 from those people, not from the victims' relatives.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Knowledge of this kind and

11 information about the missing persons was exchanged usually in the morning

12 at our workplace amongst ourselves. There was an exchange of information

13 among the people employed in the state security centre.

14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

15 MR. NICE:

16 Q. Perhaps I can amplify the answer, or you can amplify the answer in

17 respect to one particular of these witnesses. Simun Mihajlo, can you help

18 as to one of your sources of information about his disappearance?

19 A. Regarding the disappearance of Mr. Simun, I know about it because

20 I was in the staff, in the premises of the staff in Knezevi Vinogradi when

21 he appeared. There was a conflict linked to a vehicle as, by occupation,

22 he was a driver. And in his work organisation, he drove a VW, and he

23 drove it to Osijek. And after a certain period of time, he came back to

24 Knezevi Vinogradi and reported to the staff.

25 In the staff premises with me at the time was the head of the

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Page 14138

1 rolling stock, or that is, his superior, Milos Markovic, who asked him

2 what happened to the vehicle. "Where is that vehicle now"? After that

3 conversation, Mr. Simun was arrested. Actually, I didn't witness his

4 actual arrest, and I don't know when it happened exactly.

5 Q. As for his disappearance subsequently, did a relation of his speak

6 to you about that?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Vukovar Ovcara, then. Did you go to Vukovar for the first time in

9 January 1992, and when there, did you hear anything of alleged killings in

10 the Ovcara farm?

11 A. My first trip to Vukovar dates back to the beginning of 1992. We

12 were there on business in the premises of colleagues from the state

13 security of Vukovar, which was at the time stationed in Dalj. Among other

14 things, reference was made to the event in Ovcara, and the comment was

15 that the JNA had arrested all the people in the hospital, and later on,

16 the TO liquidated all the detainees from the hospital, though I have to

17 say that, at the time, this didn't interest us too much as we considered

18 Vukovar to be a great victory of ours in those days.

19 Q. Who, not necessarily by name but by rank or position, who gave you

20 that information about the JNA arresting and the Territorial Defence

21 liquidating the people from the hospital?

22 A. A colleague, an operative officer, in the Vukovar centre in Dalj.

23 Q. I turn now to Grabovac, which the Chamber will find on the road

24 running north from Osijek, slightly to the east of Beli Manastir and

25 halfway between the two. That is, halfway between Beli Manastir and

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Page 14139

1 Osijek.

2 In May 1992, Witness C-025, did you learn of something involving a

3 white mini-van and its activities in the area of Grabovac?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Can you tell us, please, what you learned.

6 A. During the working day, I received information with respect to the

7 disappearance of a number of people from the village of Grabovac. And I

8 should like to say that there were killings that had occurred previously

9 in the village of Grabovac, too, but they were individual cases. Now, I

10 was interested in what had actually happened because among the people that

11 were mentioned, and I knew most of them, either them or somebody -- some

12 of their family members, and I heard about Mr. Nadj. When I came back

13 from my work in Beli Manastir, I decided to go and see what had happened

14 of my own accord. And I went to the workshop in Grabovac where I came

15 across two locals. They were both Croats and had been living there for a

16 long time. And in talking to them, I learned what had happened the

17 previous evening.

18 They described how a white closed mini-van without any

19 registration plates coming and visiting -- going from house to house and

20 taking people out and putting them into the van. And they were actually

21 taken off nobody knows where later on. The next day, once again, when I

22 was at work and exchanging information with my colleagues, I said to my

23 boss, my superior, I told him of the case. And he said that I shouldn't

24 meddle in it. I should leave it alone.

25 Later on, I noticed this same vehicle at the petrol pump in the

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Page 14140

1 Beli Manastir facilities and building. And it was stocking up on petrol.

2 And I was -- everything became clear to me then. It belonged to the

3 anti-terrorist unit, in fact, which was located in Tikves, and

4 logistically speaking, it relied on the Beli Manastir SUP. That's where

5 it got its fuel from. This was also a white mini-van closed with no

6 registration plates. They had that -- an identical van.

7 Q. Very well. Very well. So there's an anti-terrorist unit of which

8 you're going to tell us in open session. Did they go by any name or

9 nickname, this anti-terrorist group, that you became aware of?

10 A. Well, according to the caps they wore, they were known as the Red

11 Berets.

12 Q. And they apparently had been involved with this white mini-van in

13 collecting a number of people. You've given us the surname of one, Nadj.

14 Can you please tell us how many altogether and give us the names of those

15 whom you can help us with.

16 A. There were five of them, two women and three men. There was a

17 Mr. Jumic, Lilek -- then there was a Mr. Lilek, there was Andja Vlahovic.

18 I can't remember the other one. There was another woman. I can't quite

19 remember her name now. But I wasn't able to apply logic here and

20 understand why it was these particular people, whether it followed any

21 logic or not.

22 Q. Nadj's first name was?

23 A. Stevan Nadj, and we called him by the nickname of Pista.

24 Q. Jumic's first name was?

25 A. I don't know his first name. I know his nephew by the name of

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1 Milenko. So as I say, some I know personally and some of them I know by

2 their family members.

3 Q. Lilek's first name?

4 A. I'm not quite sure. I think his first name is Ivan.

5 Q. May I suggest another last name for you, Grofec or Grofec?

6 A. Yes, Ruza Grofec.

7 Q. [Previous interpretation continues] ... a woman, as was indeed be

8 Andja Vlahovic who you've already spoken about?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I think you may have told us, but the boss to whom you reported

11 and who told you not to meddle, his name was?

12 A. Nenad Beljic.

13 Q. Paragraph 28 --

14 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Mr. Witness, you said that you are

15 sure that the mini-van, white mini-van, was the same mini-van which took

16 the five persons. Could you give the reason again. Specific reasons why

17 do you believe those two vans are identical ones.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, at that time, there weren't

19 many vehicles of that type in Baranja. And apart from that, all the

20 vehicles had to have license plates, registration plates. And this

21 particular vehicle did not have registration plates. And the two men from

22 Grabovac whom I talked to happened to mention that their vehicle did not

23 have a registration plate and it would be seen round about without any

24 registration plates. It never had any.

25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

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1 MR. NICE:

2 Q. Although the evidence may come from elsewhere, just to assist the

3 Judges at this stage, did you learn in due course whether bodies of those

4 five people had been found elsewhere; and if so, where?

5 A. According to what I learned later on, those bodies were found not

6 far from the place called Tikves in a forest, in the woods.

7 Q. Have you in the course of -- paragraph 28 -- have you, in the

8 course of preparing to give evidence, been shown a missing persons

9 questionnaire in respect of Stevan Nadj which, where the report is given

10 of his arrest by a unit under the command of somebody bearing the same

11 name as yourself, have you been shown such a document?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to why your name appears on that

14 document?

15 A. I have seen the document, but I do not know why I'm mentioned

16 therein.

17 MR. NICE: Open session, please.

18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

20 MR. NICE: May we have a map, please, which is much like the map

21 we have at the moment but this is one that the witness can mark. And it

22 will be... Thank you very much. Exhibit 326, tab 12.

23 JUDGE KWON: I think we need to exhibit it first.

24 THE REGISTRAR: That's the correct tab, Your Honours.

25 MR. NICE:

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Page 14144

1 Q. If you can take a pen, please, on this map because we can't mark

2 -- a bit further up, please. That's fine, thank you very much.

3 You've referred to a place called Tikves. Is that also something

4 connected to somewhere called Tito's castle?

5 A. The residence, yes.

6 Q. Can you just mark on this map roughly where it is. And also I

7 think there's a national park of which this is a part.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. And that's the area of Tikves, is it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In that area, what did you see of an anti-terrorism unit?

12 A. That unit was in Baranja on two occasions, twice; when the

13 conflict broke out and sometime in 1995 as well. It was always located in

14 -- within the compound of this residence of Tito's.

15 Q. On the first occasion -- and you haven't given the year, but on

16 the first occasion, what was it doing, apparently?

17 A. When this unit turned up, or rather, the first contacts with the

18 unit, were in the building itself, the MUP building in Beli Manastir.

19 That was the first time that I saw the members of that particular unit,

20 and they were wearing the red berets and different types of uniform,

21 different to the ones we would see in our area most commonly. Some of

22 them slept in the MUP building in Beli Manastir itself because there are

23 dormitories in the building. And some of them would spend the night there

24 and they would come into our office for a cup of coffee or tea or

25 whatever. And when we talked to them, we learned why they were there, why

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Page 14145

1 they had arrived.

2 In the Beli Manastir town itself at that time, certain groups of

3 individuals terrorised the populace, if I can put it that way. There were

4 problems that arose with respect to the division of the property that had

5 been left behind; facilities, coffeeshops, pastry shops, et cetera. And

6 this Red Beret group intervened several times over the next few days, and

7 it shamed the local heavy men. They felt threatened with the arrival,

8 with the advent of this unit, and how they were going about their business

9 in Beli Manastir itself. It put to shame these thugs and bandits, local

10 ones.

11 Q. And where had this group of men wearing red berets apparently come

12 from?

13 A. They had come from Yugoslavia.

14 Q. When in Tito's residence or castle, how secure or sealed was that

15 location?

16 A. Because of the specific features of the property itself, it lies

17 in a physical area of forest, several hundred hectares. There are

18 entrance gates or ramps which it is easy to control. And these units did

19 control the area and permitted entry or banned entry into the property.

20 Q. Two other details about these troops: With what weapons were they

21 equipped and what method of interpersonal communication did they have?

22 What sort of radios and so on?

23 A. They had automatic rifles. That was standard. However, what was

24 specific was that the rifle wasn't worn on a belt across the shoulder, but

25 it was carried in the person's hand. And they also had communication

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Page 14146

1 devices, Motorolas, et cetera, to be able to communicate amongst

2 themselves, which was rather -- which only the TO and JNA -- which was

3 very rather in TO and JNA units at that time.

4 Q. The second appearance of this group or men similarly attired was

5 in 1995. What did they do then? Where did you first encounter them?

6 A. Well, in that particular year, they tried to sort of reeducate the

7 people, if I can put it that way. They engaged in terror, intimidating

8 the population. Because the Serbs had also left Baranja. Now, to prevent

9 this from going on in the future, that unit sowed terror amongst the

10 population, and they wanted the people to calm down, to stay put, and to

11 train the young men who were of military age and who had not undergone

12 military training. So there were training centres for soldiers. And

13 there was another activity that the unit engaged in, and that was to

14 legalise different vehicles, passenger vehicles, heavy duty vehicles.

15 That means to do all the paperwork because those vehicles had arrived into

16 the area through unlawful means. And so they did all the paperwork to

17 make them -- to legalise them. And then they left the territory.

18 Individuals -- there was a racketeering going on where extortions were

19 made from the rich well-to-do Serbs in the area. They were blackmailed.

20 Q. Was there a Colonel Vasilje Mijovic, who was involved?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Exactly what did he do?

23 A. He was the direct commander of the unit. The unit's immediate

24 commander.

25 Q. Did the unit have anything to do with local criminals?

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1 A. Yes, it did.

2 Q. Well, in particular?

3 A. In particular, they tried to have the better-trained criminals

4 work under them. So there were professionals for different things, like,

5 for example, for stolen vehicles. This man Zeljko, nicknamed Gavro, was

6 in change of them. Then there was Predrag Radetic, nicknamed Brada or

7 "beard." There were weapons, professionals.

8 Q. You've touched on this already, but just to complete this part of

9 your testimony, was there a transfer of property, as well as a seizing of

10 property, was there a transfer of property out of the Baranja area; and

11 if so, what part did these Red Berets have to play in that?

12 A. There was transfer of property both private and what was known as

13 socially owned property. At one point in time, the Red Berets were the

14 ones who controlled this going and coming of property and persons at the

15 Batina bridge. And they had their own checkpoints that they set up on the

16 communication lines along the roads running into Batina.

17 Q. There was in fact one other question that I ought to have got by

18 way of detail. Did Colonel Mijovic establish two training centres? If

19 so, where were they?

20 A. Yes, he did set up a training centre for young soldiers in the

21 Baranja Petrovo Selo area and in the Knezevi Vinogradi.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please, Mr. Nice.

23 MR. NICE: Thank you, I'm sorry. The first can be seen towards

24 the top left of the map on the overhead projector at the moment, and

25 Knezevi can also be seen pretty well above and to the left of the blue

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Page 14148

1 mark.

2 One exhibit for this witness to deal with. May we have a look at

3 it, please.

4 Your Honour, it's a document that I hope to produce formally

5 through another witness, and therefore I invite this witness's comment

6 upon it. If the usher could be good enough to show the -- display the

7 original, first of all, on the overhead projector, that is, the original

8 in Cyrillic so that we can see what it is. The report page, which is

9 about three pages from -- four pages from the back, just look at that, see

10 what it is or what it appears to be. It's headed "Explanation" and it's

11 called "Abuse of positions by members of the anti-terrorist operations."

12 And if you now, please, Mr. Usher, detach the original and hand that to

13 the witness and place the English version on the overhead projector. And

14 I'll just read it, or some of it, and ask for comment.

15 Q. Witness C-025, this document in English reads, and you can follow

16 it in the original: "The attached documentation shows some of the

17 abuses on the part of the commander of the ATD, Colonel Mijovic, and other

18 officers in smuggling, resale and taking of cars from Baranja."

19 Next paragraph: "Through our sources, we have obtained access to

20 a part of the documentation indicating and proving the illegal

21 registration of vehicles most frequently stolen in European countries and

22 brought to Baranja where their papers were legalised in something as an

23 authorised service. There is no information in the safes about previous

24 owners."

25 And then next paragraph: "Based on talks with a source, Mijovic

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Page 14149

1 has so far taken away 25 to 27 vehicles."

2 Next paragraph but one: "Besides this through his man, a member

3 of his unit whom they called Brada, or 'beard', Mijovic twice seriously

4 threatened the head of the car registration service not to stick his nose

5 into the papers too much. The man went to Mijovic's for treatment and is

6 very frightened."

7 And then it goes on to make further allegations in general. You

8 needn't look at it in detail, you've seen the document in preparation.

9 Does the matter recorded here fit with, or not, your own experience of

10 what this unit was doing?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you very much.

13 MR. NICE: Your Honour, may that be exhibited. It's promised to

14 be established in due course.

15 JUDGE MAY: Mark it for identification. Get the next exhibit

16 number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 357, marked for

18 identification.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do not have the document. May I

21 be given a copy.

22 MR. NICE: Sorry it didn't find its way to the accused already.

23 JUDGE MAY: It's at the bottom of your package of documents you

24 got. But have another one.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, only if it was handed over

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1 this morning, but I don't think so.

2 MR. NICE:

3 Q. Finally, paragraph 34, were you aware, Witness C-025, of killings

4 in the region by men dressed in the uniform of milicija?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were those killings investigated? Did anything ever happen to the

7 perpetrators?

8 A. The perpetrators were never punished. I can't say 100 per cent

9 that nobody was held accountable. The police did go to conduct

10 on-the-crime-site investigations, and all the operations necessary in

11 proceedings running up to bringing charges against the perpetrators.

12 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm not going to trouble with paragraph

13 35, although should anybody want to ask the witness about it, I would ask

14 that it be done in closed session, for obvious reasons. In case there was

15 an error or similar as a result of the way I asked a question, can I just

16 go back to paragraph 8 on page 2.

17 Q. Remember, Witness C-025, we were talking about Crisis Staffs at an

18 earlier stage, and I asked you about the appointment of the presidents of

19 Crisis Staffs. Thinking back to that period of time, to your

20 recollection, did the SDS party regularly or from time to time take any

21 part in appointing the leadership of the Crisis Staffs?

22 A. This is how it was: When the conflicts broke out, the commanders

23 of the Crisis Staffs were in those posts, according to the statutes of the

24 local communities. When the conflict escalated or with the passage of

25 time, and as the situation in Baranja changed, so did proportionately the

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1 influence wielded by the SDS party itself in all segments, and among

2 others, this applied to the nomination and appointment of members to the

3 Crisis Staffs, and they themselves would elect their president, or rather,

4 their commander.

5 Q. Thank you, Witness C-025.

6 MR. NICE: That's all I ask.

7 JUDGE KWON: Then, Mr. Witness, why did you say previously that

8 SDS had no influence over Crisis Staff? You remember the question asked

9 by Mr. Nice, and you said no. Why was that?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because I consider that we have

11 two periods; the period prior to the breakout of the conflict and the

12 period after the conflict had broken out, because the Crisis Staffs

13 existed in peacetime before the war, as they did afterwards.

14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The registrar.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the marked map, the Prosecutor's

17 Exhibit 326, tab 12, the marked map will be tab 12.C-025.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. C-025, is it true that you were given

21 instructions as to the way you should testify here in The Hague?

22 A. I don't understand the question. I received in writing a piece of

23 paper as to the way one testifies. It's in the witness room, how one

24 should behave here. I don't understand your question. What kind of

25 instructions are you referring to?

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1 Q. Let me clarify my question. Apart from receiving instructions

2 regarding behaviour in the courtroom, you're telling us that you did not

3 receive any other instructions about the way you should testify here. Is

4 that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Very well. And is it true that you had previous contact with

7 representatives of POA, or the counter-intelligence agency from Zagreb?

8 Do you know anything about that?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And do you know that the man you contacted -- his name is

11 Snajder.

12 A. No, I don't know anyone by that name.

13 Q. You don't know Snajder from the counter-intelligence agency of

14 Croatia?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Do you know his assistant, Vatroslav Vrdoljak?

17 A. No.

18 Q. So you didn't meet with him either?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Were there any conversations in which an operative of the centre

21 of this counter-intelligence agency of theirs, that is, the security

22 service of Osijek, Milenko Pekic and Josip N - so he's from your area -

23 you never had any contact with him? You never saw him?

24 A. I do know Pekic.

25 Q. Who do you know?

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1 A. I know Pekic.

2 Q. Only Pekic.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You don't know Josip.

5 A. No.

6 Q. And was this conversation over your preparations for testifying in

7 The Hague?

8 A. Where? What do you mean? Where was this conversation?

9 Q. There was a conversation?

10 A. I'm asking you where. Can you be more specific.

11 Q. Do you assume there is information about that and tapes of those

12 conversations? You probably don't know that.

13 A. No.

14 Q. Then please answer the following questions with precision. Is it

15 true that on Wednesday, the 23rd of October, 2002, you received a

16 telephone call by -- from Milenko Pekic who made an appointment with you

17 for the next day at 7.45, that you should meet near the centre for the

18 counter-intelligence agency in Osijek because you needed to go to Zagreb

19 for a meeting with the bosses of this agency to discuss your coming to The

20 Hague? Is it true that he phoned -- that Pekic Milenko phoned you on the

21 23rd of October, made an appointment with you for the next day, and from

22 there, you were to go to Zagreb?

23 A. No.

24 Q. As in those days, the plan was for you to go to The Hague at the

25 beginning of November. Is it true that he told you that you had to report

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Page 14155

1 to the OTP on the 6th of November, 2002, and that you would be staying

2 there until the 11th of November, 2002?

3 A. No.

4 Q. No, fine. Very well. Who asked Pekic to do this and who asked

5 some influence to be brought to bear on you, we'll come to that later. Is

6 it true that on Thursday, on the 24th of October at the appointed time, in

7 front of the centre of the security service, now called the

8 counter-intelligence agency, you met with Pekic and a certain Josip, on

9 the 24th of October, 2002? Please be very precise and try and refresh

10 your memory.

11 A. I meet Mr. Pekic very frequently because we go fishing together.

12 As for Mr. Josip, no.

13 Q. And did you meet this Pekic that you meet often on the 24th of

14 October in front of the centre where he works in Osijek?

15 A. No.

16 Q. You meet often, but you're sure that you didn't meet on that

17 particular occasion?

18 A. Because I don't go to that building. We meet because we both have

19 boats tied close to one another.

20 Q. Very well. And did you go to Zagreb in an official vehicle, a

21 Golf IV vehicle, with Zagreb license plates, and that during the trip, you

22 were told that in Zagreb you would be talking to the bosses and that these

23 would be good people and that you were free to ask them anything you want

24 and that you should not be cautious about anything, that you can talk to

25 them freely? Do you remember that conversation?

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Page 14156

1 A. No.

2 Q. And is it true that upon arriving in Zagreb, you went to the

3 brewery called Medvedgrad not far from the Vatroslav Lisinski concert

4 hall, where two persons were waiting for you?

5 A. No. I went to Sesvete, to a motel to spend the night there.

6 Q. So you went to Sesvete to a motel there. What its name?

7 A. Antunovic. There's a petrol station and a motel right next to one

8 another.

9 Q. Were two people waiting for you there?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Well, why did you go to that motel in Sesvete?

12 A. To spend the night there for the trip to come here because I had

13 an early flight.

14 Q. And is it true that this person who travelled with you introduced

15 you to his boss and said that his name was Snajder, and then to his

16 assistant who introduced himself by the name of Vrdoljak?

17 A. No, I don't know them.

18 Q. So you didn't meet with them?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And is it true that after a brief introduction, Snajder addressed

21 you and thanked you for agreeing to testify and for your overall efforts

22 and said that he was aware of your work and the assistance you were giving

23 the service?

24 A. I don't know anything about any such meeting.

25 Q. And do you know that you are here under oath to tell the truth?

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Page 14157

1 A. Yes, but I don't know those people you are referring to.

2 Q. And is it true that on that occasion, this boss told you

3 that he was aware of the problems you had at work, but that you should

4 forget those problems because they wouldn't be repeated?

5 A. I have to say no once again.

6 Q. So you didn't talk to anyone about this?

7 A. Those people that you are mentioning, I don't know.

8 Q. Well who did you talk to?

9 A. When?

10 Q. On that occasion in that motel and on your way to Zagreb and when

11 you spoke about the preparations for coming here.

12 A. I didn't talk to anyone linked to preparations and to coming

13 here.

14 Q. And is it true that later on, Snajder said that he had read your

15 whole statement given to the investigators and that he would suggest that

16 should there be a chance that you should emphasise that the preparations

17 for the aggression started as early as 1989 by the JNA against the

18 Republic of Croatia?

19 A. I don't know what you're talking about.

20 Q. Was a suggestion made to you to speak about certain operations,

21 Proboj 1, 2, 3, et cetera? Did you talk about these things with anyone at

22 all?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you remember that there was one linked to Slovenia?

25 A. I'm not aware of those operations that you are mentioning.

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Page 14158

1 Q. Very well. And did anyone suggest to you that you should say that

2 it was quite clear some time ago that the crisis could not be resolved by

3 peaceful means and that the JNA started arming and contacting Serb

4 extremists and party leaders long ago? Was that suggestion made to you or

5 not? Just say yes or no.

6 A. I don't know what you're talking about. No one made any

7 suggestions of any kind to me.

8 Q. And did they tell you that as a witness, you will not be talking

9 about specific cases but that you should highlight the chain of command,

10 that is, give examples how Mijovic's unit was under some sort of

11 administration in Belgrade and received orders from it? Were you told to

12 say that?

13 A. No. No one talked to me in connection with my preparations.

14 Q. And who drove you to the Zagreb airport?

15 A. I went in my own car. In my own car.

16 Q. You drove there yourself?

17 A. Yes, and it's parked at the airport.

18 Q. Very well. And Pekic didn't go with you?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Was this on the 6th of November?

21 A. I don't know the exact date now. But anyway, I drove in my van,

22 my own car.

23 Q. And they didn't leave you their telephone numbers or e-mail

24 address or anything for contact?

25 A. I do have Mr. Pekic's telephone number. But that is on a private

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Page 14159

1 basis.

2 Q. So privately, you do mix, you do socialise. Is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And what is his position?

5 A. I don't know exactly his position. I know the work he does.

6 Q. And what kind of work does he do?

7 A. He's working in the former state security; that is, SZU.

8 Q. So in the current state security as well, but it's no longer

9 called that. It's called the counter-intelligence agency?

10 A. Yes. SZU with the new name that it now has.

11 Q. And were you told then that Pekic had been given instructions to

12 provide counter-intelligence protection for you, and he also gave

13 instructions to give misinformation should your identity be disclosed?

14 A. I don't know anything about that.

15 Q. And that that misinformation should be made public through the

16 media and through radio Glas Slavonije. Did he tell you anything along

17 those lines?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Then how, or rather let me correct myself. In what way do they

20 take part in providing protective measures? You're a protected witness,

21 and you're living over there. So how does the service we're referring to

22 participate in providing protective measures for you? Is it just through

23 Pekic or do you have contacts with any other people in connection with

24 those protective measures?

25 MR. NICE: Your Honours I'm very concerned about this line of

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Page 14160

1 cross-examination bearing in mind the witness is corrected.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, doesn't seem to be of any relevance anyway. So

3 move on to another topic, Mr. Milosevic.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I think that with regard to

5 credibility of this witness, it is indeed relevant whether he had first

6 been instructed by the Croatian intelligence service regarding his

7 testimony.

8 JUDGE MAY: He's denied that. Now what you can't ask, because it

9 may compromise his own security, is details of that security. It's not

10 relevant. What you can ask is what connection, if any, he has with that

11 state security service. You can ask him that if you want.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. And did they tell you when you left the country your passport

15 would not be stamped so there wouldn't be any traces, and if they do stamp

16 your passport here that you would have to have it exchanged when you got

17 back?

18 A. No. And there is a stamp in my passport.

19 Q. Very well. But let me ask you quite precisely: Is it true that

20 most of the information you have given in your testimony is actually

21 information of the Croatian service, especially the information regarding

22 some criminal offences of which you had mostly heard about, as you said in

23 the examination-in-chief?

24 A. No. The information comes from my own life, my own memory, and

25 from my operational work during that period.

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1 Q. Yes. But you were not able directly to collect such information

2 through your direct work in the area.

3 A. These are all persons from my surroundings, most of whom I knew.

4 Q. Very well. So you're claiming in your statement on page 2, last

5 paragraph, that the SDS influenced the activities of the TO in Baranja.

6 Were you a member of the SDS?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Then how can you assert that when you were not a member or a

9 member of the SDS leadership? How do you know to what extent they were

10 influential over certain institutions?

11 A. I knew people who were in the SDS that I collaborated with

12 closely.

13 Q. So you heard this from people in the SDS?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And was there any other party in Beli Manastir?

16 A. In that period - in 1991 - no, later yes.

17 Q. Well, in 1990, there was the League of Communists of Croatia as

18 far as I know, and later it was renamed the SDP. And most of the

19 population voted for the League of Communists of Croatia in 1990. Isn't

20 that right?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. And later, was the socialist party formed in Beli Manastir?

23 A. I'm not sure about that. I don't remember.

24 Q. How come you don't know? You were working there?

25 A. There were attempts for parties to develop, but the SDS took a

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Page 14162

1 decision that all this should be stopped until better times, that the SDS

2 should remain as the only party. And then later on others could be

3 formed.

4 Q. Very well. Let us now go on --

5 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the question at 11.12.06.08 transgresses

6 the rule about closed session. We've got to be very careful in this

7 case.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know why this mystery,

10 Mr. May, because this witness is not saying anything that he himself saw.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. So very well. The SDS had the greatest influence. And evidence

13 on that is on your second page, the meeting of local staff of the TO at

14 Jagodnjak at which two from the SDS leadership from present. When there

15 was a discussion about the Bilje operation. Is it true that you were not

16 present at that meeting?

17 A. Yes, that's true.

18 Q. Since you were not present at that meeting, how do you know what

19 was discussed and who was present?

20 A. Because the commander of my staff was there. And I learned about

21 it from him, talking to him.

22 Q. So the commander of your staff briefed you about everything that

23 happened at that meeting where they were discussing some sort of an

24 operation?

25 A. About the most important points, that one of my task and that of

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Page 14163

1 him and some other people was to try and find 40 men to take part in that

2 operation.

3 Q. Very well. And on the basis of what did you come to the

4 conclusion that apart from the presence of those two SDS officials, that

5 they were giving instructions to the TO commanders what they should do, or

6 were they among themselves agreeing on what should be done to strengthen

7 the defence of Baranja?

8 A. I didn't hear about the operative part of the meeting, nor was

9 that of any interest to me. That is actually what they agreed on at the

10 meeting.

11 Q. So you don't know what competencies were determined at that

12 meeting; you're just saying that two SDS officials were present at the

13 meeting?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So you don't know what their role was, nor whether they gave

16 instructions for that operation or not?

17 A. Yes, that's right.

18 Q. Very well. Thank you.

19 Tell me, please, in connection with this allegation that you made

20 again on page 2, last paragraph, regarding the conflict between the TO and

21 the Croatian paramilitary grouping in Bilje, in August 1991, is it true

22 that Bilje was a stronghold of the MUP and the National Guards Corps, the

23 Zengas, ZNGs, in those days?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. This concentration of the guards, the Croatian guards, and the

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1 MUPs, was it a threat to the population in the area?

2 A. I'm not sure you could say that outside the village of Bilje since

3 there was a kind of separation line already around the village of Bilje.

4 Q. So what they were doing, they did on their side of that separation

5 line?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So they didn't breakthrough your line of separation?

8 A. No.

9 Q. So there wasn't a single case of that?

10 A. There may have been sporadic exchanges of fire, but no

11 breakthrough or any serious operations.

12 Q. What does exchange of fire mean? Did they open fire at you?

13 A. Yes, there was shooting from both sides.

14 Q. And is it correct to be more specific about this event that it was

15 there a conflict occurred between local Serbs and Croats in Bilje?

16 A. I'm not sure I know what you're referring to.

17 Q. In August 1991, was there an attack by the Croatian National

18 Guards Corps and the MUP on the Serbs in Bilje or not?

19 A. There were attacks, but several Serbs entered the village of

20 Bilje. And as they recognised one another, their identities were

21 disclosed, and then fire was opened. And two or three Serbs were killed

22 in Bilje.

23 Q. I see, two Serbs were killed in Bilje.

24 A. Yes, because they entered from other villages to enter Bilje, and

25 they knew that the separation line was there and that the Zengas and the

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1 MUP were in Bilje.

2 Q. I see. So they knew they were there, and because these two Serbs

3 entered the village, they were killed there?

4 A. Yes, but they entered armed. One was even wearing a MUP uniform,

5 that is, the uniform of the Croatian police, and he was a Serb.

6 Q. And those two, did they go there to attack Bilje?

7 A. I don't know what their intention was. They went there on their

8 own initiative. They didn't report to anyone.

9 Q. Why did the two of them go to Bilje? Surely those two didn't go

10 to attack Bilje when there was such a concentration of MUP and Zengas in

11 Bilje. They didn't expect, I suppose, anyone to shoot at them.

12 A. Possibly because they were wearing this uniform they didn't expect

13 to be recognised.

14 Q. They wore uniforms just as the others were wearing uniforms, they

15 were working in the police, were they not?

16 A. Yes, but they came to Serb territory.

17 Q. No you said they came to Croatian territory?

18 A. Let me put it this way: They were staying in a territory over

19 which the Serbs had control, and then they entered a territory under

20 Croatian control.

21 Q. What were they by profession?

22 A. One was an inspector in the Croatian MUP, and the other one, I

23 don't know.

24 Q. He was a policeman?

25 A. I'm not sure. I know about this one.

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1 Q. So you know about this one. And let's leave the other one aside,

2 that you're not sure about. But this one you know about was an inspector

3 in the Croatian MUP?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And he was wearing the uniform of the Croatian MUP so he didn't

6 put on anybody else's uniform. He wore the uniform of the institution he

7 was employed in.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And he was killed because he was a Serb. Isn't that right? Or

10 because he attacked Bilje all on his own?

11 A. Before he attacked Bilje himself, he had left the Croatian MUP.

12 He had crossed over into the other territory.

13 Q. And then he attacked Bilje alone? I see. And did you hear that

14 on the 17th of August, 1991, Milos Zivanovic was killed in Bilje?

15 A. I'm not aware of that.

16 Q. You don't know anything about that?

17 A. No.

18 Q. How many Serbs were living in Bilje?

19 A. Well, maybe some 20 per cent.

20 Q. And how many would that be, 20 per cent Serbs in Bilje?

21 A. Well, Bilje has about 4 to 4 and a half thousand inhabitants.

22 Q. Fine. If that is the population, 20 per cent would be shall we

23 say 4.800. Is that right?

24 Did the Zengas and MUPs terrorise the Serbs?

25 A. Yes, most Serbs had left. Some did stay behind. But I can't be

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1 more precise in telling you exactly the number of Serbs that stayed and

2 the number that fled.

3 Q. Why did they flee Bilje?

4 A. Why did the Croats flee from Baranja? Nobody was hurting them.

5 Q. I know that no one was hurting the Croats in Baranja. But just a

6 moment ago, I'm glad you have confirmed that. A moment ago you said that

7 where the environment was more or less purely Serb, there was more

8 demonstration against, and more chaotic, and where there was a mixed

9 population, the situation was -- the relationships were more tolerant. So

10 in mixed environments, people were not aggressive towards each other, and

11 they led a normal life.

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE MAY: The time has come for a break. We'll adjourn now for

14 20 minutes.

15 --- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 12.39 p.m.

17 JUDGE MAY: You have an hour and ten minutes, if you want it,

18 Mr. Milosevic, with this witness.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, in the information which I

20 received for this witness, it said that the opposite side plans to

21 have -- to conduct its examination-in-chief for six hours. Now quite

22 suddenly, that examination-in-chief was radically reduced so that I have

23 many more questions than would be possible for me to put in the hour and

24 ten minutes you've just allotted me.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes, well, you make a start, and if necessary, we'll

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1 review the position at the end.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I shall continue

3 according to the notes I have made.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Witness, you spoke about the Crisis Staffs. Is it true that the

6 existence of the Crisis Staffs was pursuant to the laws prevalent in

7 Yugoslavia at that time?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And is it also true that the Crisis Staffs commanders were members

10 of the local government authorities, that is to say, as a rule, the

11 presidents of the executive councils of those municipalities would be

12 members of the Crisis Staff?

13 A. Are you asking before the conflict took place or after the

14 conflict.

15 Q. I am talking about how it was pursuant to the law and how the de

16 facto state was.

17 A. The presidents of the local communities as a rule were Crisis

18 Staff commanders.

19 Q. Well, did they continue to do later on, the presidents of the

20 local communities?

21 A. No, the beginning of August or rather the end of September, the

22 military and civilian functions were separated. Crisis Staffs for civil

23 matters were set up and Crisis Staffs for military matters were set up.

24 Q. And do you know that on the 17th of August, 1991, a meeting was

25 held of the Crisis Staff in Beli Manastir at which were present in

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Page 14170

1 addition to the members of the Crisis Staff all the former presidents of

2 the Municipal Assembly of Beli Manastir and the former deputies and most

3 of them were Croats, deputies of the Croatian parliament?

4 A. No.

5 Q. All right. Do you happen to know that the kommandir, the MUP

6 commander, head, or chief, whatever you'd like to call him, in Beli

7 Manastir was Prdogut Ante, a Croat, and after the Crisis Staff meeting was

8 held on that same day, the 17th of August, in Beli Manastir, said quite

9 literally the following, I understood the contents of the meeting

10 differently, I expected you to give me permission to raze Jagodnjak to the

11 ground, and Jagodnjak is a fairly large Serbian village otherwise with

12 many Serb inhabitants. And he asked that he be allowed to raze it to the

13 ground, and he said he would be able to complete this within a space of 24

14 hours, that he had the strength and power to do that. Do you know

15 anything about that?

16 A. No, I do not know.

17 Q. And is it true that the command of the Crisis Staff in Beli

18 Manastir was Lazar Brnovic, who did not take up that position following

19 the chain of the Serbian Democratic Party but was nominated by the

20 official Croatian organs and he otherwise was of Montenegrin by ethnicity?

21 A. Yes, before the war, the TO municipality Crisis Staff.

22 Q. I see. The TO municipality Crisis Staff, you say. Very well.

23 Now, in view of the fact that you yourself dealt with the organisation of

24 the TO during the examination-in-chief, you also mentioned the

25 relationship with the JNA and with the JNA. Do you know that the Yugoslav

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Page 14171

1 state presidency, following a proposal of the federal Secretariat for

2 National Defence, already in 1986 passed a decision to reform the command

3 of the army into the command of the military districts under whose command

4 was the TO in the district, on that territory?

5 A. No.

6 Q. So you don't know that that was done because during the mass

7 movement Croatia attempted to arm --

8 MR. NICE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... no point in

9 going on.

10 JUDGE MAY: No, I agree. Let's move on.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Now, do you know that the republican staffs of Territorial Defence

14 were subordinate to the federal Secretariat for National Defence?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So the republican staffs of the Territorial Defence were not, by

17 the same token, under the competencies of the presidents of the Republics

18 or the governments of Republics, but they came under the federal

19 government and its institution the Secretariat for National Defence, isn't

20 that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is it also right that the municipal Territorial Defence was

23 responsible to the Territorial Defence in Zagreb right up to the creation

24 of SAO Krajina, Baranja, and Western Srem?

25 A. Yes.

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Page 14172

1 Q. And that republican staff was subordinated to the federal National

2 Defence Secretariat. Right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And is it also true that the weapons from the Beli Manastir

5 Territorial Defence staff was transferred to the barracks in Beli Manastir

6 for security purposes exclusively?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You're talking about the Garrison, you mentioned the garrison, and

9 you were asked about the presence of the JNA and where the JNA had come

10 from, come to be there. Is it clear that the JNA didn't come from

11 anywhere because the JNA was on the territory as a regular army throughout

12 a period of 50 years?

13 A. I said in my presentation that there was a stationed unit of the

14 JNA in Beli Manastir, and that a portion that was not linked to Baranja

15 was in -- at the Batina bridge.

16 Q. So the Beli Manastir garrison was a border garrison that catered

17 to the border huts along the Yugoslav state borders between Yugoslavia and

18 Hungary. Isn't that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And this was entrusted to the army to protect and defend because

21 there was a danger of the uncontrolled use of weapons on the part of the

22 local inhabitants. Isn't that right?

23 A. Probably.

24 Q. And do you know that at the beginning of 1990, there were attempts

25 to turn the TO of Croatia into a Croatian army?

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Page 14173

1 A. Through the media, what I was able to learn that way.

2 Q. And do you know or did you hear about the fact that General

3 Spegelj, in his book "The Recollection of Soldiers" noted himself that in

4 Croatia what came to be understood was that the TO of Croatia was in fact

5 Croatian army?

6 A. I have not read the book, but I saw the tape linked to

7 Mr. Spegelj, the footage of that.

8 Q. All right. And do you remember that the idea to turn the TO of

9 Croatia into a Croatian army was not an original concept of those

10 present-day people, but at the beginning of the 1970s, the leaders of the

11 mass ^ epoch, the mass movement, endeavoured to form the youth units and

12 the republican organs would have all the power and authority over them. I

13 assume you know about that?

14 A. Well, I know something about that.

15 Q. And do you know that in those 1970s, the public prosecutor of the

16 Republic of Croatia proposed that any chauvinistic outbreaks --

17 MR. NICE: Your Honour, can I, while I'm on my feet, make this

18 point: The accused seems to think that because there was an estimate of

19 six hours at some stage, presumably based on the length of the witness

20 statement, that gives him some right to six hours. The entitlement of an

21 accused person is to cross-examine on the basis of the evidence in chief

22 prima facie. We would resist any suggestion that he's simply entitled to

23 a figure that was an original estimate. His cross-examination must be

24 responsive, broadly speaking, to the examination-in-chief.

25 JUDGE MAY: That's a matter for the Trial Chamber. This is an

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Page 14175

1 accused in person. He must be entitled to some latitude facing, as he is,

2 extremely serious charges. On the other hand, there is most certainly a

3 limit, as he knows, on the time which he will have available. It most

4 certainly won't be six hours. Try and finish in the time that we've

5 suggested, Mr. Milosevic.

6 I'll consult.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we can sit until 2.00, and we'll give

9 you until then to deploy your cross-examination. So you should aim to

10 make your main points fairly early on to ensure that they are covered.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. May, it is very difficult

12 for me now at this juncture to restructure my questions while I'm

13 conducting the cross-examination itself.

14 JUDGE MAY: You do not -- don't be misled by any of the time

15 estimates which the Prosecution give. Sometimes they are out on the

16 grounds that they are far too short, and other times they are too long.

17 But move on. It would be helpful, rather than general questions, some of

18 which can be proved by evidence and some of which are matters which we've

19 heard about before, if you concentrated on the specific questions which

20 you can ask this witness which he's likely to know about of his own

21 knowledge.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. Fine.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Is it true that the main staff of the Territorial Defence of

25 Baranja had handed out weapons to the local TO units pursuant to the laws

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Page 14176

1 that were in force at the time? And you have this on page 3, last

2 paragraph of your statement.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You mentioned the fact that individuals frequently looted and that

5 property was taken.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did the police take any steps to prevent this, to stop this, and

8 was it indeed halted?

9 A. Gradually, yes. At the very beginning of the conflict, it was

10 impossible to prevent this from happening. However, as time went by and

11 until the end of 1991, this was reduced to some legal frameworks and

12 perpetrators were prosecuted.

13 Q. So when the atmosphere was one of chaos at the very beginning of

14 the conflict, it wasn't possible for them to stop this, but then later

15 measures bore fruit and that unlawful acts were stopped. Is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And did you personally see anybody taking off somebody else's

18 property anywhere?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. What did you see, for example? Tell us.

21 A. Well, on several occasions, I saw furniture being taken away,

22 appliances, household appliances, and even tractors, sewing machines,

23 livestock.

24 Q. And where did the people take all this off to; home?

25 A. Yes, they took it to their own homes.

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Page 14177

1 Q. This was the local population that did that, wasn't it?

2 A. Yes, the population, the inhabitants.

3 Q. All right. Is it true that in Baranja after the elections held in

4 1990, a referendum was organised at which most of the population voted for

5 the option that if Baranja proclaimed itself to be independent, that it

6 should remain within Yugoslavia nonetheless?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is it true that none of you at the time spoke about any kind of

9 Greater Serbia; people wanted to live in Yugoslavia, isn't that right?

10 A. Yes, and we stated our views through the referendum.

11 Q. This was a multi-ethnic environment, and most of the population of

12 different ethnic groups reacted in that way?

13 A. Yes, the majority won the referendum.

14 Q. So not only the Serbs.

15 A. That's right, not only the Serbs.

16 Q. I'm now going to skip over a few questions which I don't feel are

17 indispensable, in view of the curtailed time that I have, although they

18 are all important questions, you said on page 3 of your statement,

19 paragraph 4, that after those first elections, the Serbs became afraid

20 that Croatia would proclaim its independence. Why were the Serbs afraid

21 of that independence on the part of Croatia?

22 A. Well, I don't know. It was a kind of popular opinion, opinion

23 held by the majority of Serbs. And I'm sure this has its historical

24 roots.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours, I

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Page 14178

1 think it would be highly beneficial if Your Honours did have a copy of the

2 statement given to the investigators for the Prosecution because

3 Mr. Slobodan Milosevic has referred back to the statement several times.

4 It is dated the 10th of March, 2001. That was the date of the interview.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Well, you said that there was some sort of fear. Tell me, did the

7 expulsion of the Serbs from the constitution of Croatia as a constituent

8 peoples in 1990 and the abolishment of the Cyrillic script, and schools

9 for Serb children, the discriminatory laws, and the series of events that

10 followed, were those reasons why the Serbs feared living in an independent

11 Croatia?

12 A. I think so, yes. But in view of the referendum, it wasn't only

13 the Serbs that took part in the referendum, I think that others shared

14 that opinion, too.

15 Q. Well, that's what we're talking about, it was precisely in that

16 multi-ethnic environment that we had great support for Yugoslavia, not

17 only the part of the Serbs but on the part of the Hungarians, Croats, and

18 other ethnicities living in the area. Isn't that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you happen to know that in only four months, June, July,

21 August, and September of 1990 in Croatia, over 10.000 Serbs were dismissed

22 from their jobs?

23 A. No, I don't know that.

24 Q. And do you know when the decision was made to set up the Croatian

25 National Guard Corps, and how this formation of the Croatian National

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Page 14179

1 Guard Corps affected the general mood that prevailed amongst the

2 population, not only Serbs but all the inhabitants living in Baranja?

3 A. Well, I don't know the details about its establishment, but I

4 refer back to the referendum. I assume it was formed on the basis of some

5 sort of groundwork.

6 Q. All right. And is it true that the decision taken by the Croatian

7 leadership to import weapons from abroad illegally and to withdraw what

8 was in the hands of the police force with Serb police members, did this

9 affect the deterioration of the political situation in Croatia?

10 A. Possibly, yes. I don't really know.

11 Q. And is it true, do you happen to remember a decision taken by the

12 Yugoslav State Presidency at the beginning of January 1991 to disarm the

13 paramilitary units, among which the Croatian National Guard Corps was the

14 first, so-called Zengas, that was never put into practice and the Zengas

15 were never disarmed. But do you remember that decision?

16 A. Well I don't recall the decision but I do know that kind of topic,

17 this issue, was written about by the information media.

18 Q. And is it true that the HDZ policy became more radical as time

19 went by, and that the elements found their inspiration in the former

20 independent state of Croatia had come to the fore?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And do you know about Tudjman's statement that there would only be

23 5 per cent Serbs in Croatia in the final analysis?

24 A. Well, this was bandied about by the media.

25 Q. And was the fear that the population felt in Baranja precisely for

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Page 14180

1 all these reasons the proclamation of independence, et cetera, was it the

2 reason for which the SAO Slavonia, Western Srem and Baranja was

3 proclaimed?

4 A. Quite possibly, but the decision was to remain within the

5 frameworks of Yugoslavia itself.

6 Q. And what about the proclamation of the region? Did it mean that

7 these regions de facto had separated and seceded from Croatia?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And is it true that those regions had their own organs,

10 institutions, government, police force, army, et cetera?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And those regions were de facto and de jure regions outside

13 Serbia. I don't suppose that's in dispute?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. Is it also true that in the Territorial Defence for Slavonia,

16 Baranja, and Western Srem, were only local inhabitants who actually lived

17 in the area, they were members of that body?

18 A. There were some volunteers too, from Vojvodina.

19 Q. Volunteers you say who had family ties?

20 A. Well, family ties or ties of friendship, ties of that kind.

21 Q. Well, you're just saying what I said a moment ago. You say it on

22 page 3, paragraph 2, of your statement, and in the last paragraph as well

23 of page 4, paragraphs 1, 2, and 3 of your statement you say precisely

24 that, that there were only locals living in the area.

25 A. Well, most of them, the vast majority were. All military able men

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Page 14181

1 from the ages of 18 to 60 --

2 JUDGE MAY: [Previous interpretation continues] ... the statement.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to the law in force at the

4 time all able-bodied men between 18 and 60 years of age responded to the

5 mobilisation call.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Very well. You joined the TO in Knezevi Vinogradi in July 1991 as

8 a local, did you not?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And do you know that on the 25th of August, 1991, there was a

11 session of pro-Yugoslav parties --

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice.

13 MR. NICE: The question at 13.02.53 transgresses the rule.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes. Mr. Milosevic, don't ask questions like

15 that except in private session, please.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This does not reveal the identity of

17 the witness, Mr. May. There's so many people here from the area.

18 JUDGE MAY: It may reveal where he comes from. Anything that's

19 liable to do that, you should be aware of.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Do you know that on the 25th of August, there was a meeting of

23 pro-Yugoslav parties? This was their coordinating committee, with several

24 members of the staff of the TO of Baranja. Are you aware of that meeting

25 held on the 25th of August, 1991?

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Page 14182

1 A. No, I don't remember.

2 Q. No?

3 A. I don't remember.

4 Q. And are you aware of a meeting at which a decision was taken on

5 the appointment of the executive council of Beli Manastir, the secretary

6 of the SUP, and various other appointments were confirmed for the

7 commanders of the TO in Baranja and agreement reached on the distribution

8 of positions, those responsible for civilian affairs, the TO towards the

9 border with Croatia, all these things were discussed at the meeting that

10 was held on that date? You don't know anything about that?

11 A. I don't remember that meeting, but I do remember when these

12 appointments were made.

13 Q. And do you know that on the 30th of August, there were talks

14 between representatives of the authorities, the SUP and the TO of Beli

15 Manastir and Valpovo, Valpovo which is in Croatia? And their main

16 options, the options of the meeting, were to create conditions of life

17 free of conflict, free of violence, the aim being to ensure conditions for

18 the peaceful life of all the inhabitants of the region. Do you remember

19 that?

20 A. No. I don't know about that meeting, but I assume in my earlier

21 testimony I did refer to something linked to electricity supply. And that

22 was linked to that meeting, I think. Should electricity be cut, a

23 countermeasure could be action against economic enterprises.

24 Q. And do you know that on the 30th of August, over Beli Manastir

25 radio, it was announced that all citizens who had sought refuge, and the

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Page 14183

1 majority were Croats, could return to their homes and that they are free

2 to harvest their fields and gardens, that they can sow wheat normally, and

3 a special call was made to those from the Belje agricultural combine

4 because there was a lot of work to do on the fields. Do you remember

5 that?

6 A. No, I don't know. I didn't hear that report, though the situation

7 was such as to warrant such measures.

8 Q. And do you know that on that same day, that is, the 30th of

9 August, when over Beli Manastir radio, there was this call for the

10 refugees, Croatian refugees to return, that members of the Zengas opened

11 fire on the Serbian villages of Jagodnjak and Poljeman [phoen]?

12 A. There were frequent exchanges of fire. I can't tell you the exact

13 dates, but there were frequent exchanges of mortar fire in that area.

14 Q. And do you know that on that same day, a sabotage group of the

15 Zengas with 60-millimetre mortars and rifle grenades, and it was headed by

16 Stevo Kitak [phoen], a policeman, attacked the Jelen estate, that is, the

17 Djitica [phoen] plant, which is also known as Pustara?

18 A. There were several such sabotage actions, planting of trip mines,

19 and anti-armour mines, and they came too close to our positions because

20 the line itself was quite unusual, there was a no man's land covered with

21 thick woods and brush.

22 Q. And do you know that members of the Zengas on the 2nd of September

23 kidnapped Savo Sekanic, a Serb, a peasant from Jagodnjak, and that the

24 International Red Cross was informed about it?

25 A. Yes.

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Page 14185

1 Q. And do you know or had you heard that on the 3rd of September,

2 1991, from the Croatian leadership through Glavas, an order was issued for

3 the collective emigration of the Croats from Bilje but that only the men

4 of military age should stay behind. Do you remember that order of theirs?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Very well. Can we agree that in Baranja in general, there was

7 very little military activity?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You mentioned in your examination-in-chief KOG. What is KOG,

10 K-O-G?

11 A. Counterintelligence group engaged in counterintelligence in the

12 field, and it may also cover civilians, because according to the law of

13 National Defence, all men of -- able-bodied men of military age are

14 subject to that law on defence and can be covered by KOG. The military

15 service was divided into operatives outside the barracks which were in

16 plainclothes and people in uniform in the barracks.

17 Q. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I misheard you, please correct me if I

18 did. You mentioned that KOG armed the Serb population. Did you say that

19 or not?

20 A. The associates of KOG would receive truckloads of weapons. When

21 I say associates, those associates became associates after they were

22 armed. I knew who were the men who obtained weapons, but I didn't know

23 what they represented.

24 Q. And did you get weapons from that group that you mentioned?

25 A. No.

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Page 14186

1 Q. And were you ever present when KOG armed anyone?

2 A. No, I wasn't present. Physically I was not present there.

3 Q. And you say that the counterintelligence group supervised the

4 reserve JNA force. What kind of supervision do you mean? You mention

5 this on page 41 but last paragraph in the sense of counterintelligence

6 protection, they were able to apply all methods, informative interviews,

7 technical methods and so on.

8 Q. So you mean that the service was collecting intelligence

9 information which is its normal work, isn't it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. On page 4, you mentioned that somebody called Dragisa Radic,

12 Stojan Sekanic, and Damir Zuzic, Rajko Mrdja, all from the area. One is

13 from Darda, the other from Knezevo, the other from Batina,

14 from Beli Manastir, that they were collaborators of the KOG. Did you

15 personally see them engaged in any specific activities as part of that

16 collaboration? What is the grounds for you to say that?

17 A. Through subsequent work in the field, we would meet. Operatives

18 of the state security and operatives of KOG on the same assignments.

19 Q. And is it true that in June 1991, I will not mention the name of

20 the local inhabitant because this could reveal your identity or be

21 considered to reveal your identity, you received an M48 rifle, a rifle

22 that was no longer in use in the JNA. Is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was he an SDS activist?

25 A. Yes.

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Page 14187

1 Q. Was he a leader?

2 A. No, because his professional duty was something else.

3 Q. Very well. You say that the JNA in June or July 1991 captured the

4 Batina bridge. And on the 25th or 26th of July, 1991, it captured Knezevi

5 Vinogradi, or took control of it. Is there any dispute that in the period

6 you're referring to, the SFRY was still in existence at the time the

7 president of the Presidency was even Stjepan Mesic? So what kind of

8 capture are you talking about? You mean that it controlled the bridge and

9 the area?

10 A. One could accept such a change of the wording.

11 Q. And is it true that the JNA came to the areas where there were

12 conflicts between Serbs and Croats, precisely those areas?

13 A. Could you clarify that question, please.

14 Q. Is it true that it came to the areas where there were clashes

15 between Serbs and Croats, in order to separate the two sides and to

16 prevent conflicts between them?

17 A. In Baranja, there was only one such example, though in Baranja,

18 there were virtually no conflicts during the takeover. The only conflict

19 was in Beli Manastir between MUP units and armed Serbs which was stopped

20 through the activity of armoured vehicles which didn't open fire but were

21 set in motion.

22 Q. I see. So the army started the vehicles in order to preempt a

23 conflict between the MUP of Croatia and the Serb territorials. It didn't

24 even open fire, but as soon as the vehicles appeared, things calmed down

25 and there were no conflicts. There were no other conflicts, were there?

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Page 14188

1 A. No.

2 Q. I'm glad we've cleared that up. So what that means is the JNA did

3 not interfere in those conflicts but prevented them on both sides?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Very well. And do you know that on the 6th of September, 1991,

6 the inhabitants of Baranja formed two brigades and one artillery division

7 because they were dissatisfied with the failure of the JNA to engage? Is

8 that right or not?

9 A. I don't know about the date, but what you said is right, is true.

10 Q. And do you perhaps know - though this is not in Baranja itself,

11 that's why I'm asking you whether you may know, perhaps - that a JNA unit

12 was positioned in Borovo Selo on the 2nd of May, 1991, between the

13 clashing parties, virtually saved the Croatian police and paramilitary

14 groups from total defeat and much greater casualties that could have

15 occurred, that in that case, too, it acted to appease the tension and to

16 put a stop to mutual fighting.

17 A. Yes, it immediately stopped hostilities.

18 Q. Shall I leave that question out?

19 You started working where you worked on the 1st of October, and

20 where you collected all this information you're testifying about. Is that

21 right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In 1991?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In your statement, you say that in September, some representatives

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Page 14189

1 of the state security from Sombor came to your region. How do you know

2 that they in particular came when it was later in time that you were

3 engaged in those affairs?

4 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues]...

5 JUDGE MAY: We'll go into closed session for this.

6 [Private session ordered for public release,18 December 2002 (D18520-D18519)]

7 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. So in your statement, you say that in September 1991,

11 representatives of the DB from Sombor came to your region. And how do you

12 know that they specifically came when you started working for the DB of

13 Beli Manastir in October 1991?

14 A. The work I did as of the 1st of October, I also did before the 1st

15 of October for the staff, for the TO staff in Knezevi Vinogradi.

16 Q. Oh, I see.

17 A. And in the first contacts, when they made inquiries, they

18 addressed me.

19 Q. Well, is it true that the DB of Beli Manastir was formed after the

20 Croatian police had left the region in July and August 1991?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You talk about the links between the DB of Serbia and the DB of

23 SAO Eastern Slavonia. And I have jotted down your words. You talked

24 about cooperation; isn't that true?

25 A. Yes, cooperation. Their arrival on our territory, so operatively

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Page 14190

1 speaking, they worked towards -- with individuals for whom we had

2 information about. And the archives remained in MUP Beli Manastir.

3 Q. MUP Beli Manastir, I see. Now, are there -- is there a lack of

4 logic there with respect to this kind of cooperation, or was it the

5 normal, standard form of cooperation between neighbouring services,

6 municipalities, and so on?

7 A. It was normal, regular cooperation.

8 Q. You mentioned a moment ago during the examination-in-chief - to

9 try and ask you some questions in private session - that you went to

10 Belgrade for a meeting just once but that you didn't have a meeting there

11 with any representatives of the DB of Serbia but that you went to a

12 meeting with your boss from Knin who had come from Knin and so Belgrade

13 was a good spot for you to meet. Isn't that right?

14 A. Yes, that was in 1995.

15 Q. But that was the only time you went and had any contacts in

16 Belgrade. Isn't that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. That's when you met your boss from Knin. Right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And those DB members in Sombor in this normal communication, they

21 didn't go there to fight for anything but just to gather intelligence.

22 Right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right. You say on page 6, you mention a name, Radoslav

25 Kostic. And you say that he was responsible to Belgrade and that he

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Page 14191

1 wielded great influence, that he appointed individuals and that he

2 censored information that went out from Beli Manastir to Sombor and

3 Belgrade. How do you know all this? Were you close to him?

4 A. Not me, but my superior.

5 Q. So on the basis of that, you were able to draw those conclusions,

6 were you?

7 A. Not only the basis of that. It was clear to all of us on the

8 basis of the written documents that were sent physically via Mr. Kostic.

9 To Mr. Kostic, right.

10 Q. Did you see him receive orders or send in or receive reports from

11 Belgrade?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You did not, right.

14 Now, from your sketches here, you say that the DB Beli Manastir

15 had a chain of command towards the MUP in Belgrade of some kind.

16 A. Not a direct chain of command, no. It was a chain by which

17 information was exchanged, or rather, if they required some information on

18 persons living in our area, then we would report back to them. And as

19 regards some people who had left Baranja and were in Serbia, we had to

20 receive information about them through them.

21 Q. So you exchanged information and intelligence. What they asked

22 you for, you would send to them, and if you asked them for information,

23 they would send that information to you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So this cannot be defined as a chain of command in any way, just

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Page 14192

1 as cooperation between two services?

2 A. Yes, on the basis of information.

3 Q. Right. We've clarified that, then. So the only crossing, the

4 crossing that was most frequently used and closest to you was the crossing

5 between Hungary and Yugoslavia, the border crossing at Backi Brijeg, isn't

6 that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I understood you to say that you worked out that border crossing

9 as a DB operative of Baranja, right?

10 A. Yes, that's right.

11 Q. I also understood you to say that it was your task to see if there

12 was anything interesting intelligence-wise, interesting persons crossing

13 over that border crossing and people who could infiltrate into Baranja.

14 A. Yes, communication between the inhabitants of Baranja and the

15 inhabitants of Croatia went via that particular border crossing.

16 Q. Yes, so you would collect intelligence in order to protect the

17 security of Baranja, not in order to protect and defend the security of

18 Yugoslavia or Serbia; just Baranja, right?

19 A. Yes, no.

20 Q. So you were going about your business, doing your job, in the only

21 place where those who could be interesting for you intelligence-wise would

22 be able to cross. Right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You were then asked about certain individuals specifically who had

25 been arrested. Right?

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Page 14193

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You were also asked specifically whether those individuals --

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do not think we

4 need remain in private session for these questions.

5 JUDGE MAY: Certainly; we're dealing with intelligence. Yes.

6 Yes, go on, Mr. Milosevic.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. As I was saying, these individuals who were arrested, you spoke

9 about a certain number of people, I think I heard you say 50, 50 persons.

10 And they were taken from the territory of the SAO Krajina to the territory

11 of SAO Krajina. Right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And they were not able to take the road any other way because

14 there were no communication lines. They had to cross the Batina bridge

15 and then that other bridge nearer Erdut. Isn't that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So this was no - how shall I put this? - no entry into Yugoslavia

18 or any treatment in Yugoslavia or Serbia. All it was was the crossing of

19 police vehicles from one territory of the SAO Krajina to another portion

20 of the SAO Krajina territory. Isn't that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So it wasn't up to the Yugoslav authorities to control the police

23 force of SAO Krajina when people are crossing from one part of the

24 territory, its territory, to another part of its territory and this being

25 a transit road using the only course available to them in view of the fact

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1 that the Croats had blown up the other bridge?

2 A. Well, I don't know about the competencies of the police in

3 Yugoslavia and how far it extended.

4 Q. All right. You also mentioned another individual by the name of

5 Simun.

6 A. Mihajlo.

7 Q. Yes, you said he had been killed.

8 A. He is listed as missing. I'm not sure whether he has been

9 proclaimed killed or whatever.

10 Q. But you said that five bodies were found subsequently, one of

11 which was his.

12 A. No, not Simun Mihajlo. That wasn't the man. Nadj Stevan was the

13 man in question. Nadj Stevan -- Stevan Nadj, that's who I mentioned.

14 Q. That's why I took a look at your statement and saw that he was

15 listed as missing and that the report dates to the year 2000.

16 A. Simun Mihajlo, that was the man, but he wasn't amongst the five

17 persons we discussed earlier on. He was among the 50 people that I

18 mentioned.

19 Q. How do you know that approximately 50 persons were taken into

20 custody and taken away? If you say that they were taken off to be

21 exchanged, how, then, can you claim that somebody killed them? Did you

22 actually see anybody kill anybody there?

23 A. Well, no, as I wasn't physically on the territory from which these

24 persons were taken away.

25 Q. How, then, do you assume that some of these people were killed?

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Page 14196

1 A. On the grounds that they were on the list. Of the persons taken

2 away, some bodies were later recovered.

3 Q. All right, then. How many persons do you know were arrested on

4 the territory of Baranja who later fell victim under whatever

5 circumstances?

6 A. Well, apart from these persons who were going to the exchange,

7 there might have been approximately 20 similar cases, for example, in the

8 area of the Darda police station, because Baranja at that time was divided

9 into three police station areas; Darda, Beli Manastir, and the Bakin

10 frontier one. So it was on the Darda police station territory that there

11 were considerable killings that had taken place, and whole families were

12 even exterminated.

13 Q. All right. And how -- what is your personal knowledge? Who do

14 you know personally who was killed?

15 A. Apart from the people that were exchanged?

16 Q. All right. Those people who went for an exchange, they were

17 probably exchanged at some point.

18 A. Unfortunately, a smaller number was actually exchanged.

19 Q. Well, according to your knowledge, how many were killed?

20 A. Well, it's difficult to assess that now, to say that. But I would

21 say at least 35 to 40 people.

22 Q. You say 40 people.

23 A. Yes. On the basis of this exchange system.

24 Q. But you said that there were 40 casualties.

25 A. Those who were exchanged -- who were killed and not exchanged,

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Page 14197

1 those are the ones I'm talking about.

2 Q. Do you know who actually killed them? Do you have any knowledge

3 about that?

4 A. No. They were killed in those centres to which they were

5 transported for exchange purposes.

6 Q. Well, how, then, do you know that they were killed in those

7 centres to which they were transported?

8 A. In some of those centres, some bodies emerged, appeared. The

9 Danube River at Dalj threw up some bodies because there's a lot of

10 stagnant water on a particular curve of the river, and that's where the

11 bodies floated up to the surface.

12 Q. How many such cases were there?

13 A. Well, I wasn't there to establish those facts, but I know from my

14 own environment, I know the people who had left to be exchanged.

15 Q. So you just know that people left to be exchanged?

16 A. Some of them came back, but most of them did not.

17 Q. All right. Very well. Is it true that it was your task within

18 the DB service up until every Thursday of each week that you would take in

19 requests from people asking to leave the region, and after that, a

20 committee made up of three members, a three-member committee, would

21 actually decide who would be allowed to leave and who would not. Is that

22 right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Who were these people mostly?

25 A. These were mostly people who had relatives, friends, children,

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Page 14198

1 living elsewhere and who left the Baranja territory to go to Hungary or

2 Serbia or Croatia. So these were people from the whole of the former

3 Yugoslavia and also from Hungary as well.

4 Q. Why did you have to give your permission? For example, how would

5 you define the category of persons you denied permission to leave the

6 area?

7 A. Those were people who, during that period of time, were due for

8 call-up, mobilisation, because it took different stages according to the

9 different --

10 Q. So it was just the military recruits that you didn't give

11 permission to leave, is that right, and as for others they were free to

12 go?

13 A. Yes, with our permission. So the women, we applied our rules to

14 the women, too.

15 Q. All right. Is it true that you yourself left the DB of Beli

16 Manastir, the State Security Service, after an incident that took place in

17 Bilje because you refused to draft a written report pertaining to the

18 incident. Is that right, correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And is it true that this incident consisted of the covert

21 entrance, secret entrance, from Bilje of a certain person called Zoltan

22 Cickaj for whom you claim was introduced into your area by Radovan Kostic

23 and that this led to the indignation of the local Serbs who protested, and

24 then the police had to intervene and so on?

25 A. Yes.

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Page 14199

1 Q. And what was the problem?

2 A. The problem was that that same gentleman, Kostic, without

3 anybody's knowledge or permission brought a person in from Hungary. He

4 took him over Backi Brijeg and brought him into Baranja without stopping

5 at the checkpoint, the border crossing provided for in order to control

6 the entrance of persons into the country. So that was something

7 peripheral that happened. But the main reason for the conflict really, or

8 rather for my leaving the DB, was the fact that my boss wanted to make me

9 write a report about the event. I reported orally. I made an oral

10 submission, as I knew who Rade Kostic was, and my boss at the time was

11 subordinated to Rade Kostic in the Darda police station. They had been

12 friends for a number of years, for many years. I reported orally but

13 didn't want to write it down. He insisted that I make a written report.

14 When I refused, this is what happened.

15 Q. All right, I understand. Now, why did the arrival of this man

16 Cickaj upset the population?

17 A. Because he went to Osijek. He lived in Osijek, actually, and he

18 left Bilje when the people from Bilje left, and he returned because his

19 friend, or rather his daughter is married to this man, the man whose house

20 he appeared in.

21 Q. So it was a local occurrence of somebody going to Osijek and

22 returning from Osijek, and he was a sort of suspect and led to doubts and

23 that's why the incident broke out?

24 A. Yes, and they stoned the house and the neighbour's house who knew

25 about all this, so the police had to intervene.

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Page 14200

1 Q. All right. And you left the DB then, didn't you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And when was that?

4 A. I think that my last working day was the last day of April.

5 Q. Which year was that?

6 A. 1993.

7 Q. 1993. All right. So when you left the DB, you worked in the

8 Sumarija, the forestry administration in Vrginmost is that right?

9 A. It was the Vrginmost administration, yes.

10 Q. Then you said you joined the intelligence service of the police

11 force in Beli Manastir?

12 A. That was badly formulated. When I left the DB, the law on

13 mobilisation, I was subject to the law on mobilisation. So before I

14 worked in the forestry administration, I was mobilised for seven days and

15 I was off for seven days. And the same thing happened when I worked in

16 the forestry department of Krajina, as a military policeman I responded to

17 the mobilisation call.

18 Q. Tell me, is it true that in 1992 you worked in some kind of

19 paramilitary intelligence service?

20 A. No, not in 1992. From 1991 until 1993, I was in the DB, the State

21 Security Service.

22 Q. All right, fine. And is it true that some members of your

23 service, of the DB, were arrested by that same service because they were

24 suspected of working for the Croatian service?

25 A. When you say DB, what do you mean?

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Page 14201

1 Q. I mean the DB of Beli Manastir, Baranja.

2 A. I don't know about arrests, but they were checked out, information

3 was investigated when the operatives from Vojvodina were important ones.

4 Q. Is it true that there were doubts concerning you, you were a sort

5 of suspect?

6 A. I don't know about that.

7 Q. So you were not?

8 A. I don't know about having been a suspect.

9 Q. And is it true, just say yes or no, that your cousin Stojan

10 Tetravic [phoen], who found you the job in the Brestovac plant was an

11 active member of the HDZ?

12 A. No.

13 Q. I see. Let me just see what I can leave out to save time.

14 Please, tell me this: I don't know whether this is for private session,

15 Mr. May. On page 8 in the last paragraph of your statement, you say that

16 you were meant to go with some units of the Republic of Serbian Krajina,

17 Republika Srpska, and Fikret Abdic's troops to participate in the

18 operation around Bihac. But that the operation never took place because

19 of a shortage of fuel, as you put it. Is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is this for a private session,

22 Mr. May?

23 JUDGE MAY: [Previous interpretation continues] ... it concerns

24 his own activities.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

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Page 14202

1 Q. When I read this, at least, and when I hear it, it sounds rather

2 strange if not rather funny. You talk about a major operation that has

3 been planned and then nothing comes of it because there's no fuel.

4 A. Unfortunately that was how it was. Convoys with fuel would start

5 out, and on the way they would get lost in Bosnia.

6 Q. Well, in that connection, there's no fuel, and you don't engage.

7 Isn't it true to say that the JNA or the Republic of Serbia have

8 absolutely nothing to do with that?

9 A. They don't.

10 Q. And was it your duty within the framework of that operation to

11 examine prisoners of war, that is to do your job, your intelligence work,

12 and to collect intelligence information? Was that your task that you were

13 meant to perform?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And how, then, did you get any information as to the reasons which

16 resulted in the operation not taking place as you had no other role in

17 that operation except to collect intelligence?

18 A. Well, we had frequent mutual contacts with officers in the troops

19 who were on the ground.

20 Q. And tell me, please, on the basis of what it says here, you were

21 in the region of Knin between the 8th of July and the 3rd of August, 1995.

22 Is that right? Is it true that, during that period, it became clear to

23 you that the Croats were preparing an offensive?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And did you know in advance the day when they would attack?

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Page 14203

1 A. Not the actual day.

2 Q. So you were not there when the shelling of Knin started?

3 A. The shelling became quite frequent five or six days before the

4 launching of the actual operation by the Croatian army, but not the town

5 itself but the front lines around Knin that could be seen from the town

6 itself.

7 Q. And then, as a person who was well-informed, had intelligence and

8 military information and others, are you familiar with the results of the

9 Operation Storm? How many people were killed and how many were expelled

10 from Krajina? What do you know about those events?

11 A. I can't give you the precise data, but I do know that this was --

12 this had a disastrous outcome for the Serb people.

13 Q. Do you have any idea about it?

14 A. It involved hundreds of thousands of displaced persons, and

15 probably thousands of people killed.

16 Q. And in view of the work you did, did you have any information

17 about the participation of American instructors and generally the

18 involvement of foreign armies in the preparation and implementation of

19 Operation Storm?

20 A. Some knowledge regarding the participation of the agency Iparis

21 [phoen]. It's a professional agency providing services from the

22 organisation to the planning of operations.

23 Q. And do you know anything about the destruction of the radar and

24 anti-rocket defences from the air?

25 A. We had subsequent knowledge about direct attacks on those

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Page 14205

1 facilities.

2 Q. And who carried out those direct attacks?

3 A. Croatia didn't have the means to destroy radar installations, the

4 airport at Udbina and the like.

5 Q. You've already spoken about the chaos at the beginning, which

6 later settled down, the rule of law was established and started

7 functioning. Did you personally arrest anyone or were you personally

8 present when someone was arrested?

9 A. No, I didn't arrest anyone, and I'm not sure that I was present

10 either when an arrest was made because I mostly had interviews either in

11 my office in the building or when I was at the crossing points.

12 Q. Very well. Can we conclude, then, that your testimony about such

13 arrests are based only on what you heard, based on rumours, and not on

14 your personal knowledge?

15 A. The information of my colleagues I couldn't really call rumours.

16 Much of that was later confirmed as being truthful.

17 Q. But you did not have any personal knowledge of these things.

18 A. Direct participation, no.

19 Q. And did you mention that the reasons for arrest in some cases were

20 revenge?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What kind of revenge?

23 A. Well, there may have been some property problems between people.

24 This is an agricultural area, land boundaries. There were disputes of

25 that kind.

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Page 14206

1 Q. So local disputes were sometimes abused as an excuse for arrest?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Very well. And since you mentioned that some of those persons who

4 were arrested were also mistreated, do you know how they were mistreated?

5 A. They were beaten.

6 Q. I see, beaten.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And were you ever personally present when someone was beating an

9 arrested person?

10 A. No, but I would see them in the MUP yard when they would be forced

11 to load coal, timber, wash vehicles, and then on their faces you could see

12 that they had been physically mistreated.

13 Q. I see. So those persons were used to load coal, timber, and to

14 wash vehicles?

15 A. Sometimes, yes.

16 Q. Very well. I won't ask you about these missing persons as you

17 already told us about that. Just tell me, please, who is responsible for

18 the disappearance of these people. I don't want to name them. Just tell

19 me who is responsible. Can you give me the names of the people

20 responsible?

21 A. I already said in my testimony; whoever carried weapons arrested

22 people.

23 Q. So whoever carried weapons?

24 A. Yes, whoever carried weapons could arrest or mistreat those who

25 didn't have weapons, especially if they were not of the same ethnic group.

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Page 14207

1 Q. As far as I understood you, this happened at the beginning; later

2 on, this was not possible?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Which period are you referring to, the chaos at the beginning of

5 the conflict? How long this lack of -- lawlessness lasted?

6 A. Well, for about a month and a half, up to two months.

7 Q. So the first two-month period of chaos, anyone with weapons could

8 engage in violence. After that, some kind of rule of law was established?

9 A. Yes, and all violence happening in the street was sanctioned in

10 most cases except in exceptional cases.

11 Q. So you say that whoever wore weapons, some people because a piece

12 of land, others for some other reason - we can't list all the reasons -

13 but is it true that those who were engaging in such violence had nothing

14 to do with the JNA or any authorities in Serbia?

15 A. They didn't have anything to do with them.

16 Q. And since you had knowledge about this, did you report to a

17 competent authority the persons who were engaging in violence?

18 A. This was done by the public security service to some extent. I

19 mean, the police. I've already pointed out that inquests, on-the-spot

20 inspections, were done. But why nothing was done, I can't say. I can't

21 say anything about that. I don't know.

22 Q. Very well. But the government of SAO Baranja, I see on page 10,

23 paragraph 5, had its ministers, its Minister of Justice, of Internal

24 Affairs, and so on. So as far as I understand it, or do I understand you

25 correctly, they endeavoured to establish order, and finally, eventually,

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1 succeeded?

2 A. Yes, one could say from October, November onwards, this form --

3 these things were normalised and these institutions started functioning

4 and the rule of law started to function.

5 Q. Very well. You were in Vukovar in January 1992, I see, from your

6 statement. And you then heard about the killings at Ovcara?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is it true that you didn't know who killed those people, nor on

9 whose orders? What did you learn about that? What is your knowledge

10 about that? Please tell us quite freely what your sources are.

11 A. The first information, unofficial, after the fall of Vukovar

12 didn't interest us much because in that operation, we considered ourselves

13 to be the winners, having conquered Vukovar. And everything linked to

14 Vukovar had a very high rating.

15 Later on, my first visit to the area at the beginning of 1992, we

16 met with colleagues from the state security of the centre in Vukovar which

17 was dislocated to Dalj. And during a conversation, Ovcara was mentioned,

18 or rather, that the TO had liquidated the people captured in the hospital,

19 the prisoners from the hospital. To be quite sincere, even at that point

20 in time, this didn't interest me much. We were still celebrating the

21 victory at Vukovar.

22 Q. Who were those prisoners from the hospital?

23 A. Who happened to be in the hospital. I'm saying I wasn't

24 interested in the details, whether they were people who had sought shelter

25 in the hospital, whether they were the wounded, whether they were the

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Page 14209

1 hospital staff; I can't tell you.

2 Q. And is there any dispute that that happened as part of the

3 arrangements made by the local inhabitants in Eastern Slavonia, Baranja,

4 and Western Srem, or can responsibility be attributed to the JNA for this?

5 A. I said that the information I had was that the TO, that the

6 Territorial Defence had liquidated those people.

7 Q. Did you have any data at all, any information that the JNA had

8 anything to do with that?

9 A. The JNA had taken control of the hospital and taken captive the

10 people there.

11 Q. How, then, did the local authorities get hold of them? Do you

12 know how many convoys were organised by the JNA precisely to save a

13 certain number of those Zenga members and Redarstveniki from the fury of

14 the local citizens and then send them back to Croatia via Yugoslavia?

15 A. I do know that the JNA evacuated a large number of civilians

16 towards Yugoslavia who were later returned, but I'm just passing on the

17 information that I heard there linked to the hospital specifically.

18 Q. Very well. So you do not have any information about this, so

19 there's no point in dwelling on that in any detail. I just want to check

20 something that I have here. But in view of the limited information at

21 your disposal, you obviously would not be the best person to ask about

22 this. But let me just see if I have any information here about which I

23 could ask you a direct question.

24 I won't dwell on that. I won't spend any more time on it. It's

25 not sufficiently specific in view of what you are saying in the level of

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Page 14210

1 information that you have about the event. But you do know that Ovcara

2 was not within the jurisdiction of the army when the event occurred?

3 A. Yes, that is the information I received.

4 Q. Since you mentioned that some Croatian families disappeared from

5 your area, I want to ask you whether you know that in the course of 1990,

6 Branimir Glovac [phoen], the Osijek Jupan on behalf of the HDZ --

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this really is not

8 for private session in my opinion.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I really also think that this is not

10 for private session.

11 JUDGE MAY: We'll go to open session.

12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Since you mentioned that some Croatian families went missing from

16 your immediate vicinity, I should like to ask you whether you know that in

17 the course of 1990, Branimir Glovac, the Osijek Jupan, or "count," on

18 behalf of the HDZ, distributed in the municipalities of Slavonia very

19 powerful military explosive called Vitezit. And the Croatian press

20 reported about this, among others. Do you know anything about the blowing

21 up of Serb houses? Do you know that some people even changed their first

22 and last names, and do you know how many houses were blown up? Do you

23 know anything at all about those events?

24 A. Yes, I do have some knowledge linked to such events, ranging from

25 the blowing up of Serb houses, business premises owned by Serbs, the

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Page 14211

1 political newspaper offices, et cetera. There were such events.

2 Q. Do you know exactly where they occurred?

3 A. In the area of Osijek. This was closer to me and I was more

4 familiar with the situation there.

5 Q. And are you familiar with the expression that was in use by -- I

6 don't know how else to call them but terrorists or extremists in Eastern

7 Slavonia, and members of these Ustasha formations which openly call

8 themselves Ustashas and carried the letter "U" on them? Had you ever

9 heard of them?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Yes or no.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You had heard about them. And do you know the expression they

14 used from that time and from that area, that the Serbs had floated down to

15 Serbia. Does that mean along the Danube?

16 A. In our case, along the Drava.

17 Q. Of how many cases had you heard?

18 A. I heard of some more prestigious Osijek doctors, physicians.

19 Maybe I heard of seven or eight such cases, of more prestigious Serbs in

20 Osijek.

21 Q. I see. So Serbs who were prestigious, who were not members of any

22 kind of militant structure or who could not be accused of any kind of

23 militant attitude were killed and thrown into the Drava?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Are you aware that only from the Beli Manastir municipality alone,

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Page 14212

1 57 persons were killed and went missing in the period 1991 to 1993? I'm

2 talking only about Serbs now.

3 A. Are you talking about the municipality of Beli Manastir or Beli

4 Manastir itself?

5 Q. Municipality of Beli Manastir.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. There is also data of Veritas. I suppose you had occasion to

8 see them?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And do you know that members of the Zengas, across the Hungarian

11 border, with the permission of the Hungarian authorities, crossed into

12 Baranja on two occasions, the first time on the 30th of September, 1991,

13 and the second time the 30th of November, 1991?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And what happened?

16 A. This is an area that we've already mentioned, around the village

17 of Torjanci which it was very difficult to control because of the swamp

18 land there. And the Croatian army, across Hungarian territory, crossed

19 over with the aim of taking control of the frontier posts in the area.

20 Q. And do you know that each and every one of them were captured

21 precisely by the Territorial Defence and then handed over via the JNA to

22 the Croatian side again? In other words, they were released, to return to

23 their homes unscathed?

24 A. Yes, I'm aware of that. They entered a mine field, and they

25 surrendered so as to avoid getting killed.

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Page 14213

1 Q. But nobody got killed. Is that right?

2 A. No, no one did.

3 Q. Is that true?

4 A. Yes, it is true.

5 Q. And do you know that on the 30th of November, 1991, in the village

6 of Torjanci in Baranja, members of that same army, the National Guards

7 Corps, slaughtered a number of gypsies?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What do you know about that event? This was also in Baranja?

10 A. I know that they entered, and these were mostly locals who had

11 left the village. They came back and spent the night in their own

12 village. And during the night, they killed some people among whom most

13 were non-Serbs. And again, there was an attempt to capture the border

14 post and to stop a lorry transporting bread to that border post and to use

15 that truck for that purpose, but they didn't succeed, though there were

16 casualties.

17 Q. So the Croatian forces killed 25 persons in the village of

18 Torjanci. Do you know that?

19 A. I'm not sure about the number, but there were victims. I think

20 that the number 25 occurred in another operation on the 3rd of April,

21 1992.

22 Q. That's precisely what I'm talking about. This is a second

23 operation. When they slit the throat of these gypsies, this was a

24 previous operation in the same region. And then on the 3rd of April,

25 1992, they again attacked the same area and killed 25 persons.

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Page 14214

1 A. Yes, this time also they came through the territory of Hungary.

2 They used some anti-armour vehicles and came behind the back of the

3 separation lines.

4 Q. Are you aware of their killing Zeljko Negovanovic on the 21st of

5 August in the factory of cattle feed? He was working, he wasn't armed, he

6 was an ordinary worker there, and he was killed because he was a Serb.

7 A. I'm not aware of that particular detail.

8 Q. And do you know that in the police station yard in Darda, they

9 killed Milivoj Stojakovic on Saint Elias Day, on the 2nd of August, 1991?

10 A. No, I don't know about that.

11 Q. And do you know that in that period, an assassination attempt was

12 made at Ilija Djurkovic from Beli Manastir, who succumbed to his wounds on

13 the 5th of September, and Nedo Tomic was seriously wounded?

14 A. Nedo, a man. Yes, I do know about that. I'm aware of that

15 incident. And it provoked the Serbs to organise themselves in Karanac, in

16 Knezevi Vinogradi immediately after that incident, and the villages were

17 closed with checkpoints.

18 Q. And do you know that on the 7th of September, 1991, a sabotage

19 group of the National Guards mined the region around the Serb village of

20 Balma. It's a Serb village. And four members of the defence of Baranja

21 were killed, four TO members.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was that how it was?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And do you know that on the 14th of September, a sabotage group

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1 came to the Jelen agricultural estate and killed two unarmed workers on

2 the estate who were Serbs?

3 A. Yes, I do know of that.

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you can have five minutes more, until

5 10 past, and then you will have had much longer than the Prosecution, and

6 we shall bring your cross-examination to a close.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. It is very

8 difficult for me to ask all the questions I would like to ask.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. But without enumerating, many of these events you know about.

11 People died from the constant onslaughts by the black-shirt groups of men,

12 the extremists. All those events are events you know about. Isn't that

13 right?

14 A. Yes, most of them.

15 Q. So throughout that time, while you were working, did the Serbs

16 ever attack any Croatian settlements or conduct crimes of this kind

17 against a village, against the inhabitants of a village, against workers,

18 citizens, or anybody else?

19 A. No. In that period of time, the Serbs were exclusively oriented

20 towards Defence, towards defending the lines taken, towards defending

21 Baranja.

22 Q. All right, fine. Then I need not question you any further on that

23 score.

24 I should just like to clarify one point, as our time is up and I

25 have many more questions to ask, but the collective answer to all the

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1 questions, let's clear up one point, and that is concerning the document

2 that I looked for a moment ago and wasn't able to find amongst all my

3 documents. It is the document which speaks about the alleged abuse of a

4 position on the side of the anti-terrorist ATD and the SUP in Baranja.

5 This document is, in fact, titled "Explanation" and then it goes on to say

6 "Abuse of position by members of the ATD, anti-terrorist operations, and

7 the SUP, Secretariat of the Interior, in Baranja," and there is no

8 signature to the document. So I don't know what value this document has

9 at all.

10 And does it mean anything to you as a witness?

11 A. The document, as such, as a document, is one I saw for the first

12 time here. However, the events that are described in the document mean

13 something to me. I think that this is only a portion of the events that

14 have been described in this document, not everything that happened.

15 Q. All right. Tell me, please, as we noted a moment ago that the

16 situation there was calm and that the Serbs were just defending

17 themselves, protecting themselves, that there were no other - how shall I

18 put this? - no other incidents, so what has it got to do with the Serb

19 authorities at all, or with any conduct on the part of the organs and

20 institutions of Baranja, Eastern Slavonia and Western Srem, the fact that

21 somebody was stealing vehicles, for example, and selling those vehicles

22 elsewhere or engaging in any other activities of that kind? What has that

23 to do with any of the authorities in this trial and anything to do with

24 this trial here? In view of the job you had, I'm sure you know how much

25 the police of Serbia did to prevent all this happening, to prevent theft,

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1 looting, that it confiscated vehicles if perpetrators were engaged in

2 unlawful import of such vehicles, that they had set up checkpoints and so

3 on.

4 Now, what has that got to do with our proceedings here and what we

5 are discussing?

6 JUDGE MAY: We must bring this to an end. We will allow the

7 witness to answer. It's not for him to answer what it has to do with the

8 proceedings, that's for us to decide because that's a question of

9 relevance. But you can deal with two questions:

10 Do you know any connection between this sort of activity, Witness

11 C-025, under various authorities there may have been, apart from Colonel

12 Mijovic, of course? You can answer that, if you would.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there was an interconnection

14 in view of the fact that the units of Colonel Mijovic was not linked along

15 the chain of command to the territory in which it was active, however

16 Colonel Mijovic did have an influence on the leadership of the then SUP in

17 Beli Manastir. Rather, they were the ones who carried out his orders.

18 JUDGE MAY: The other thing that was put is that efforts were made

19 to stop this kind of activity going on. Can you help on that or not?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were. But all this went

21 on in bouts, in different periods. And it depended on what was going on

22 in the realm of politics. For example, there were some periods in which

23 this form of activity, when registration -- the re-registration of

24 vehicles was allowed, and there were periods when it was not allowed, this

25 attempt to register the vehicles without registration plates.

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1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Are you trying to say that the authorities in Serbia ever allowed

3 this take place?

4 A. I'm not talking about Serbia. I'm talking about Baranja, the

5 Baranja territory.

6 Q. All right. We've clarified that. One more question now: In your

7 statement on page 10, and you also spoke about this during the

8 examination-in-chief, you spoke about the May 1992 incident when allegedly

9 from the village of Grabovac five persons went missing. Now, for this

10 crime, you in your statement point your finger at the members of some sort

11 of anti-terrorist unit because - and I deduced this myself --

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes, go into private session. This is the last

13 question.

14 [Private session ordered for public release,18 December 2002 (D18520-D18519)]

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is no matter for private

16 session.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. It says that they drove a white mini-van without registration

19 plates. Isn't that so?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was it only on that basis, because a white mini-van without

22 registration plates was seen in the vicinity, you ascribe that to the SUP,

23 or rather the milicija or police from Darda? Isn't that right? You first

24 of all thought it was the police from Darda that did this, and then on the

25 basis of the fact that you had heard that there was a white mini-van in

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1 question, you linked that fact up to the fact that you had seen yourself a

2 white mini-van at some petrol station.

3 A. I should like to state that in Darda, or rather in the area that

4 came under the police station of Darda there were quite a number of

5 killings, and in the Grabovac area as well. However, these were

6 individual cases, or what happened, for example, a husband and wife were

7 killed. Now, these people weren't killed. People had disappeared.

8 People went missing, which means somebody collected them from their homes

9 and quite simply they disappeared, all trace of them was lost. And

10 another indicator which I accepted was that this vehicle did not have any

11 registration plates. However, another signal to me was instructions from

12 my superior not to meddle and interfere in this. So these are not

13 concrete pieces of evidence, but it was quite enough for me to stick to my

14 boss's instructions.

15 Q. Did he tell you that after you had made guesses yourself? Perhaps

16 he knew nothing about it, he wanted you to get on with more important

17 business, and he didn't know about it, or do you think that he knew about

18 it and thus instructed you not to interfere?

19 A. Well, I'm not certain whether he knew about it, but he did lead me

20 to conclude that it would be best if I didn't interfere, if I left it to

21 one side.

22 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Now, Mr. Tapuskovic, have you got any

23 questions?

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have seven or eight minutes'

25 worth of questions, if I may, Your Honour, please.

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1 JUDGE MAY: It's too late really to go on now. We'll do that in

2 the morning.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, may I be given a list of

5 witnesses to appear --

6 JUDGE MAY: Wait a minute --

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Who are going to appear next.

8 JUDGE MAY: -- let's go into open session, first.

9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes, list of witnesses next, please. There is a list.

12 MR. NICE: The last witness list is I think still valid, save for

13 the fact it was made clear last week that Mr. Blewitt, even without his

14 medical problem, would be used as a -- is to come after witnesses coming

15 from outside --

16 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps you could just remind us the order we've got

17 them coming up.

18 MR. NICE: Yes, it would be Witness Laber next, followed by C --

19 yes, Poljanic is next.

20 JUDGE MAY: Laber, Poljanic and --

21 MR. NICE: If we get to it, I think it will be K-2.

22 JUDGE MAY: K-2. And Mr. Blewitt.

23 MR. NICE: Probably now not this week I should think because we've

24 only got until Wednesday.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may, with

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1 respect to the cross-examination conducted by Mr. Slobodan Milosevic, in

2 case Mr. Nice in the event that Mr. Nice has no questions, then I will

3 refrain from asking my questions and not keep the witness any longer, on

4 condition that Mr. Nice has nothing further to ask the witness either.

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, have you got any questions? I mean, we have

6 to keep the witness -- I'm afraid we have to.

7 MR. NICE: I have questions. I'm not sure about the propriety

8 about that.

9 JUDGE MAY: It's totally improper. But nonetheless, have you got

10 any questions?

11 MR. NICE: I do.

12 JUDGE MAY: You do. So that's the answer. You must come back,

13 I'm afraid, tomorrow morning but it won't be for very long, Witness C-025.

14 9.00 tomorrow morning, please.

15 [The witness stands down]

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

17 at 2.16 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

18 the 10th day of December, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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