1 Thursday, 22 September 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE KWON: Judge Robinson cannot be with us today due to an

7 urgent matter, so Judge Bonomy and myself will be sitting today pursuant

8 to 15 bis.

9 There's one matter of housekeeping before we go on, which arises

10 out of yesterday's hearing in relation to the exhibits. Judge Robinson

11 noted that a bunch of Prosecution exhibits which had been used during the

12 cross-examination of Mr. Delic would be admitted, but there was some

13 confusion and some certain modification is necessary. So we'll deal with

14 it at the end of Mr. Delic's evidence, together with some remaining

15 Defence items.

16 MR. NICE: I'm grateful.

17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, continue your examination, please.

18 WITNESS: BOGOLJUB JANICEVIC [Resumed]

19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Janicevic, do you have any direct knowledge

22 about what you only mentioned yesterday in response to the previous

23 question about mass demonstrations of Albanian separatists in Kosovo in

24 1981?

25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please start answering again.

1 His microphone was not on.

2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Janicevic, could you repeat your answer again.

3 Could you start again.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said yes, of course. I personally

5 took part in breaking up the hostile demonstrations in 1981. Those

6 demonstrations started on the 11th of March. Their motto was to resolve

7 the social welfare problems of the students, and they went on all the way

8 up to the 5th of April.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. In what capacity did you take part in this?

11 A. I was a policeman of the provincial SUP at the time.

12 Q. What was the nature of these demonstrations, and what were the

13 messages of the demonstrators? You mentioned a few moments ago that

14 purportedly that was due to the dissatisfaction of the students due to

15 some problems that they were having.

16 A. The nature of these demonstrations was extremely nationalist and

17 separatist. They were cheering for Albania and Enver Hoxha. Their

18 slogans were: We are Albanians and not Yugoslavs. Furthermore, their

19 slogans included the following: We are the children of Skenderbeg and the

20 army of Enver Hoxha. From the 3rd to the 4th of April, these

21 demonstrations turned into an armed rebellion, because in addition to the

22 methods they used so far that could jeopardise people's health, they

23 resorted to firearms as well.

24 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. Milosevic.

25 Can I ask, Mr. Janicevic, whether you are reading from something.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. These are just my preparations

2 from the hotel. I'm just -- I'm not reading this, I'm just sort of

3 glancing at it. Would you like to see this?

4 JUDGE KWON: Do you need that in answering the questions?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I need it by way of a

6 reminder, to jog my memory.

7 JUDGE KWON: So you prepared it at your hotel room yesterday?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's been a long time. Yes, last

9 night in my hotel room. If you like to, you can check this.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, please go on. You could have

12 clarified that kind of thing in advance.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I talked to the witness rather

14 briefly about all the subjects that I wish to ask him about. I assume

15 that, bearing in mind these subjects, the witness sort of jotted down what

16 I wanted to ask him. If it bothers you if he looks into his notes, the

17 ones that he wrote in his hotel room, as he said, he doesn't have to do

18 that.

19 JUDGE KWON: Let's go on.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. A few moments ago you said that the demonstrators, since these

22 demonstrations were violent, as you said, even resorted to firearms. Were

23 there any casualties in these demonstrations?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So to the best of your recollection and to the best of your

1 knowledge, what was the outcome?

2 A. There were nine victims. Eight demonstrators and one policeman

3 were killed. Ibrahim Abazi, an ethnic Albanian, was the policeman who got

4 killed. He worked for the provincial SUP. Further on, there were 205

5 wounded persons, out of which 130 were policemen. The rest were

6 participants in the demonstrations.

7 Q. Well, it seems that there were twice as many injured policemen

8 when compared to the demonstrators.

9 A. Precisely.

10 Q. Tell me now: In view of your professional work, what was the

11 security situation in Kosovo and Metohija after these demonstrations, from

12 1981 onwards, throughout that decade, from 1981 until 1990?

13 A. From 1981 until 1989, the political and security situation in

14 Kosovo and Metohija was very complex and difficult. It was complex and

15 difficult because pressures exerted by Albanian separatists and

16 nationalists against Serbs and all other non-Albanians were on the rise

17 and were even more pronounced than before.

18 May I just mention that in this period, from 1981 until 1988,

19 28.000 Serbs were practically expelled from Kosovo. Serbs only.

20 Q. Can you give some examples of the crimes that you referred to just

21 now, those that happened after these demonstrations in 1981?

22 A. There are many examples, but I'm just going to mention two.

23 The first example is the murder of Danilo Milincic, in the village

24 of Samodreza, near Vucitrn, on the 2nd of June, 1981.

25 And the second example is the murder of Miodrag Saric on the 3rd

1 of July, 1982, in the village of Mece near Djakovica. These are the most

2 impressive examples.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Janicevic, can you tell me how you managed to

4 remember these dates?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the book -- well, I was a

6 policeman and I retired as a policeman only six or seven months ago, or

7 rather, eight months ago, on the 31st of December, 2004. Every day we

8 received bulletins and reports about what was going on in the territory of

9 the province. These are the most impressive examples, and any citizen

10 could remember these.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: So you have a personal recollection of these dates,

12 have you? You didn't need to check anything, you have a personal

13 recollection of them?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I checked these dates, but I know

15 that it was in 1982.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Why didn't you tell me you had checked them?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've already said: I did not

18 recall the exact date, but I knew the year. Is it that important that

19 I've checked the date?

20 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry, you didn't say you didn't remember the

21 exact date; you said the exact opposite of that. But let's move on.

22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, do we need to dwell on these events in

23 1980s? Please move on. Bear that in mind, please.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very briefly. But, as you've heard,

25 Mr. Janicevic was a policeman and a public official for a while. He was

1 president of a municipality. So his testimony can be quite authentic in

2 terms of what happened and how the situation developed.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Janicevic, since you spent your entire career as a policeman

5 in Kosovo and Metohija, do you have any other information about crimes,

6 about the form they took, perhaps about some statistics of everything that

7 happened to the detriment of Serbs, Montenegrins, and other non-Albanians

8 in Kosovo?

9 A. I'll just give a few examples. For example, in the period from

10 1982 until 1984, ten rapes were committed, and there were 11 attempted

11 rapes of Serb women by Albanian men. There were 286 crimes against Serbs

12 and 1.249 misdemeanours where Serbs were the victims.

13 MR. NICE: I don't think we need ask the witness --

14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nice.

15 MR. NICE: -- answer to the question whether he's done this from

16 memory or from a record. He obviously has referred to a record, and to

17 pick up the point that was concerning His Honour Judge Bonomy, if records

18 are going to be relied upon or to have been relied upon, they should have

19 been made available to us so that I can deal with their authenticity and

20 accuracy. As it is, I shall be cross-examining somebody who has turned to

21 records not available to me, or they may now be coming available. A

22 briefcase is being opened.

23 JUDGE KWON: Setting aside the value, he can speak from his

24 personal memory, can't he?

25 MR. NICE: He can of course speak from his memory if it's

1 relevant, but here we've seen a fairly -- a very precise listing of

2 numbers, and it obviously comes from a record.

3 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: What is the source of these statistics,

5 Mr. Janicevic?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The source of these statistics that

7 we've referred to is a publication called "Kosovo, the Past and Present."

8 It was published in 1989 by Medjunarodna Politika, a publishing house in

9 Belgrade.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: So can I take it that you've used the book, written

11 notes out on a piece of paper, and now you're reading from a piece of

12 paper to us?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not everything, just the

14 figures. I cannot recall the exact figures after 20 years.

15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, by now you should know how to lead a

16 witness. Let us move on.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: I personally would like to move to something

18 relevant to this trial about which this witness has personal knowledge.

19 Can we not get up to date?

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Janicevic, what you've just been saying, without entering into

22 precise figures because you didn't count all this, but do you have any

23 personal knowledge yourself dating back to those days about the things

24 which you're testifying here; that is to say, the rapes, the killings, the

25 destruction, the destruction done to cemeteries, and everything else that

1 you mentioned? Is that based on your own knowledge or did you learn it

2 from books you've read?

3 A. Of course it's on the basis of my own personal knowledge. I have

4 spent 33 years working in the Ministry of the Interior, mostly in the

5 police force and involved in public security, law and order.

6 Q. All right, Mr. Janicevic. Now, for your testimony here, it's not

7 vital that we quote precise figures. What is more important is to

8 describe what went on, the kind of things that happened. So we don't need

9 to hear exact numbers, figures. So you can limit yourself to your own

10 personal knowledge and experience about the matters in hand here.

11 In tab number 2, we have a brief contribution, a video, which

12 testifies to what you said a moment ago. So may we show that footage?

13 [Videotape played]

14 MR. NICE: There should really be translation.

15 JUDGE KWON: Could we pause there a minute. Stop the video. Yes,

16 Mr. Nice.

17 MR. NICE: There should be a transcript or translation.

18 JUDGE KWON: Yes. It's not actually audible.

19 Can you deal with it at this moment, with this? Do we need to

20 view more?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What you were able to see on the

22 video is the date. There was a "2" at the end. Was it '82, 1982? May we

23 see the video again? And you can also see a Serbian Orthodox cemetery

24 which has been destroyed.

25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, it is a very leading question. Ask

1 questions to the witness instead of you saying everything in advance.

2 Mr. Milosevic, how long are you going to plan to have this

3 witness? You said ten hours?

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is a rough estimate.

5 JUDGE KWON: Only for your examination-in-chief?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE KWON: Can we not move on to 1990s right now? And you can

8 deal with the 1980s, if necessary, at the end of it.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I think it is necessary,

10 because this is a very important witness. However, if you insist that we

11 move on ...

12 JUDGE BONOMY: What is the point you're trying to make about the

13 1980s?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The point that I'm trying to make is

15 the continuation of violence against Serbs, Mr. Bonomy, which is ongoing

16 today as well, with the help of those people of yours who issue orders,

17 and your own state, Mr. Bonomy.

18 MR. NICE: Entirely domestic --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Nice.

20 MR. NICE: Those remarks -- my microphone is not working.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm satisfied that there is no legitimate forensic

22 purpose for this, in light of the remarks made to support the leading of

23 this evidence, and I, for one, am certainly opposed to any further

24 evidence about the 1980s. We've heard plenty of the historical background

25 already, and we don't need it.

1 JUDGE KWON: Let us hear the evidence in relation to 1990s, in

2 particular 1999, and let's deal with it later, 1980s. Please move on.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Fine. I shall go back to these

4 questions, or perhaps I can just go through them now with respect to the

5 exhibits that have been provided here for you, Mr. Kwon.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation].

7 So let's move on and look at the most important points in the

8 testimony of Mr. Janicevic, and then later on I'll go back and pick up the

9 questions that I consider need to be asked in the examination-in-chief,

10 and there are a series of exhibits here related to those matters.

11 So just let me consult my notes.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Janicevic, in preparing for this testimony, we discussed the

14 activities of the KLA and your knowledge thereof and the formation and

15 establishment of that so-called Nerodimska zone, or area, and the KLA

16 brigade which was within its composition.

17 Tell us when and where you arrived at information about the

18 Nerodimlje zone and the brigade, the terrorist KLA brigade, which was

19 within its composition.

20 A. Well, I'd first of all like to say when we first learnt about the

21 formation of some terrorist group, or rather, one terrorist group in the

22 SUP Urosevac area.

23 At the end of 1997, that was, when there was a terrorist attack

24 against a police point in Grlica and the killing of a member, of an

25 Albanian named Dugoli, on the 28th of November 1997. That was performed

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13 English transcripts.

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1 by a terrorist group which had been established by Shukri Buja and it was

2 active in the area of Lipljani up to the gorge of Crnojevska.

3 In January 1998, the first staff was established, the terrorist

4 KLA staff, in the Urosevac area, in Jezerce to be exact. However, even

5 before that, there were intimations, or rather, attempts to establish a

6 paramilitary staff which at that time was not called the KLA staff. It

7 was called the paramilitary staff for the defence of Nerodimlje, and this

8 Nerodimlje zone and joining up all the terrorist organisations active in

9 the Urosevac area took place somewhat later on, in the second half of

10 1998.

11 Q. Very well. Tell me, please, Mr. Janicevic: In tab 10, take a

12 look at tab 10 in the documents you have there - and I think we all have

13 those documents before us - whether they are indeed documents about the

14 Nerodimlje operative zone. And tell us what those documents contain and

15 whose documents they are, their origin and the time they date back to.

16 JUDGE KWON: Do we have a translation of this? I'm afraid not.

17 There's no translation. If we could put the tab 10 on the ELMO so that we

18 can follow.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I begin?

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Yes. Go ahead. Put the documents in their order on the ELMO,

22 please. They are mostly diagrams, schematics, and I think it will be easy

23 to follow them. Just briefly, let's go through them.

24 JUDGE KWON: What is an RDB, first of all, Mr. Janicevic?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] RDB is the sector for state security

1 of the Republic of Serbia, which came under the Ministry of the Interior

2 at that time.

3 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Go on.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. This is a document of the state security; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And what date is it?

8 A. This document of the state security dates back to 1999.

9 Q. Could you explain to us, please, what this first diagram is all

10 about, the one we can see there.

11 A. It is the operative zone of Nerodimlje, with the brigades and

12 staffs. The commander of the so-called operative zone of Nerodimlje was

13 Shukri Buja, and his nickname was Sokol, or falcon. He was called Gazetar

14 previously but came to be known as Sokol. And the deputy commander was

15 Ymer Gazi, and his nickname was Fehmi. Then we have Zoran Filmi [phoen];

16 Cari Lutara [phoen], called Kuri; Xhemajl Xhemajl [phoen], nicknamed

17 Hadzija; Emir Acica [phoen], nicknamed Petrik; Sadiku Ismet, who was the

18 first, in 1996, to set up a sort of paramilitary staff. Then there was

19 Vica Saban [phoen], nicknamed Mudzahedin; Samir Hajrudin, nicknamed Selma,

20 Jashari Milajm [phoen], nicknamed Professor; Fehmi Hajrunahu [phoen],

21 nicknamed Fehma; and a man named Kospat or rather, his nickname was Spat,

22 but we weren't sure of his real name.

23 Now, within the composition of the Nerodimlje Operative Zone, we

24 have the brigade names: The 161st, Ahmed Medziku [phoen] was named later

25 on, after January 1999. And the commander of this brigade was Ramusilje

1 Imi [phoen], nicknamed Granite.

2 Then we have the 162nd Brigade of Agim Bajrami, and it received

3 its name, took the name of the deputy commander who lost his life in

4 fighting the Serb security forces in August 1998. The commander was Iljas

5 Djamil [phoen], and he died fighting the security forces and was replaced

6 by Commander Zarko Cabil [phoen], nicknamed Cori [phoen].

7 Then we have the 163rd Brigade, or rather, there was the 163rd

8 Brigade with Commander Eli Ziriza [phoen], and it was just a brigade on

9 paper. Ahmed Kaciko [phoen] was the commander who died fighting against

10 the Serbian police, but the commander later on was Eli Riza [phoen], as I

11 said, and he was a former policeman.

12 Q. Very well.

13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Janicevic, I don't think you have to read all the

14 documents in that detail. But how can we recognise that this document is

15 a RDB document which dates back up to 1999, without any stamps or without

16 any date?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a document which was

18 compiled on the basis of gathered information during 1998 and 1999. They

19 are operation reports and work in the field, on that basis. I have a

20 piece of paper here which I received, so compiled by the state security

21 sector.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness speak into the microphone,

23 please.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In preparing for this trial, the

25 lawyers gave me this piece of paper to show to the Trial Chamber, to show

1 that the documents here are original, and this was issued from the state

2 security on the 22nd of June, 2005. So this is just a diagram. In the

3 documents of the operative zone of Nerodimlje, and there are quite a few

4 of those - I think several tabs here, in fact, deal with that matter -

5 have the dates on them, the dates of the documents, when they were

6 compiled and on the basis of what information. But this testifies to

7 their authenticity.

8 JUDGE KWON: That kind of letter should have been included in this

9 exhibit and translated. Does this letter say that this document, this

10 very RDB document, is included in that bunch of documents offered by the

11 state security?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE KWON: I'd like to have this letter translated and

14 exhibited.

15 Mr. Nice?

16 MR. NICE: Certainly. It's obviously a document we should see. I

17 don't know if it's been provided to us in any other way. I don't know if

18 the material contained or said to be identified in this letter is material

19 that's been subject to requests by us or by other teams.

20 It's a totally unsatisfactory way of dealing with evidence,

21 because basically, as yesterday with another witness in another section,

22 this witness is trying to produce material that is basically produced by

23 other people.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I'm obviously behind everyone here, because

25 I've forgotten what the witness has told us was his connection with the

1 State Security Service.

2 Mr. Janicevic, can you tell me your link with the State Security

3 Service.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The RDB was in a ministry until a

5 few years ago, until 2001. Therefore, the links were firm, close. All

6 the information that the public security received, all their operative

7 reports and everything with respect to the actions of terrorist groups in

8 the area, that is to say, in the area of my own secretariat, were sent in

9 to the State Security Service, which then, on the basis of that

10 information and those facts, compiled reports and made their estimates of

11 the security situation on the basis of that material. They issued

12 collective reports.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that, but how do you happen to have

14 the reports, or the documents?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Please let the witness answer my question.

17 How do you happen to have the document?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Belgrade, while I was being

19 proofed, the lawyer gave them to me, the lawyer who proofed me. He gave

20 me copies of the document.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, at the moment, I don't see any link between

22 you and these documents. But perhaps it can now be clarified by questions

23 and answers.

24 JUDGE KWON: Who were the lawyers that gave you these documents?

25 You mean associates of the accused?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE KWON: So it is not you but they who got these documents

3 from the security service? Am I right?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course it was they. They were

5 provided at their application, at their request.

6 JUDGE KWON: So this letter was addressed to those lawyers?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE KWON: I think now I understand.

9 Mr. Milosevic, if you clarify this matter further, if necessary.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just had a brief look while it was

11 on the overhead projector. I saw that the letter was addressed to

12 Mr. Raicevic, who is one of my associates in Belgrade, just as Ognjanovic,

13 Tomanovic, and Rakic are my associates who regularly come here. They

14 filed an application, as they are entitled to, for RDB documents to be

15 provided to them.

16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, the first thing you have to do when

17 producing a document is to lay foundation of it; how you got possession of

18 it and how can you prove the authenticity of that document, et cetera. So

19 you should have laid that foundation first of all. Let us go on.

20 Just a second. Judge Bonomy.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: It's the link between this witness and the document

22 that really matters, and we don't seem to have that at the moment. How is

23 it that he in his professional life would come across this document?

24 That's what we need -- at least, it's what I need to know.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You just took the words out of my

1 mouth, Mr. Bonomy. I was about to say that when I was interrupted.

2 Mr. Janicevic was chief of the Secretariat of the Interior, that

3 means the highest place, leader of the police.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues]... from you, I

5 want to hear it from the witness, and I don't want to hear it from the

6 witness through leading questions. I want a genuine, spontaneous response

7 from the witness.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, you already got that

9 answer at the very beginning, when this witness was talking about his

10 career record. And this is one of the things --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Get on with asking the questions, bearing in mind

12 that I obviously have not, probably through my weakness, made the

13 necessary link. Please make it for me again.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Janicevic, did you used to be chief of the Secretariat of the

16 Interior for Urosevac?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. In which period were you chief of Urosevac SUP?

19 A. 15 June 1995 to 15 April 1999.

20 Q. Does this information relate to your territory, the area of

21 responsibility of your Secretariat of the Interior?

22 A. Absolutely.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Have I established the link

24 sufficiently, Mr. Bonomy?

25 JUDGE BONOMY: No. You've shown no basis for his using these

1 documents during his professional life.

2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Janicevic, when did you see this document first?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was common practice while I was

4 chief of the Secretariat of the Interior to have daily briefings involving

5 chiefs of sections and chiefs of SUP. We had a representative of the

6 state security sector in our area, and we exchanged information that was

7 collected on a daily basis.

8 JUDGE KWON: That's not an answer to my question. My question

9 was: Is it when you were proofed that you had seen this document for the

10 first time, or did you see this document in 1999?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this form, I saw the document for

12 the first time during proofing, but I know about 99.99 per cent of the

13 contents from the time when I worked in the area earlier.

14 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues]... relevant. He could

15 have given evidence without the aid of a document and we needn't be

16 burdened by a document the providence of which is entirely uncertain.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: And all it becomes is a form of leading question,

18 because this is material produced by someone else that the witness is just

19 reading from.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, can we move on to matters which the

22 witness can deal with with his personal experience.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly, but I assert that this is

24 also something that the witness can talk about from his personal

25 experience, because without any leading questions on my part, the witness

1 explained a couple of minutes ago that he personally, and his subordinates

2 in the SUP of Urosevac, collected information on the ground, passed it on

3 to the State Security Service, and the State Security Service exchanged

4 information with them. And this document is one of many documents, one of

5 many reports, compiled by the State Security Service based on the

6 information provided by his organs. I don't see what's unclear.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: The last bit is the bit we don't know. He's only

8 seeing this for the first time because he's involved in these proceedings.

9 There's nothing about this document to indicate that it's official.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is a document that was provided

11 from the archives of the State Security Service at the request of my

12 associates, or rather, the institution that is named -- that has been

13 renamed Documentation and Information Agency. So this document in this

14 form --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: What is it, this document? Is it somewhere in this

16 -- is it described somewhere in the letter? It's not in English, so I

17 can't read it and make any -- I can't understand it as it is, and there's

18 nothing on it to indicate it's official, and I don't know if there's

19 something in this letter that tells us with some authority what it was and

20 how it was compiled and in what circumstances. Now, if that's all there,

21 then please bring it out. And if not, let's move on to something that you

22 can authenticate.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that's precisely what I asked

24 for, for the letter to be given to me to have a look, because I don't have

25 the letter at this moment before me. The witness has it. I only saw it

1 on the overhead projector. I didn't have time to deal with these

2 technicalities with the witness. Can I get the letter to see it?

3 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Hand it over to the accused.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is from the Council of

5 Ministers of Serbia and Montenegro, National Council for Cooperation with

6 the ICTY. So my associates went through the regular channels they had to

7 go through, this council, and it is addressed to attorney-at-law Moma

8 Raicevic, who is a member of my team, and it says: "Please find enclosed

9 the documentation requested on the 24th of May, 2005. This documentation

10 relates to the activities of the KLA, its crimes and its activities in the

11 Nerodimlje zone. We herewith enclose 65 statements, collected materials

12 of studies, documentation related to murders," and so on and so forth,

13 structure of the KLA, manuals, written orders, et cetera. All this

14 documentation is listed. All of it is signed by the secretary of the

15 National Council -- of the Ministerial Council, rather, through which my

16 associates had to make this application.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: So what does it say this document is?

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is a document that says: "We

19 herewith provide documents related to the Nerodimlje zone." That means

20 all the documents available to them related to the KLA activities --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: It's obvious you don't know what this document is,

22 so let's move on to something sensible that the witness can actually speak

23 about and authenticate.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, you may put questions very briefly in

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1 relation to this document. We'll mark the very tab for identification,

2 pending the authenticity is proved. Please go on.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I just wish to add that,

4 according to my information, Mr. Nice has all these documents in his

5 possession, because before anything was given to my associates, everything

6 was provided to Mr. Nice's office.

7 JUDGE KWON: That's not an issue. Please get on with the

8 evidence.

9 MR. NICE: Probably not correct. And it's not the first time that

10 these observations get made and I have to devote some resources to see

11 whether they're accurate or not and it leads nowhere. We may have been

12 provided with this material elsewhere, I simply don't know, but it doesn't

13 seem to be helpful to raise it now.

14 JUDGE KWON: Let's move on with your question.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Janicevic, you have shown us the first page where we see this

17 diagram. In 1998, when this Nerodimlje zone, and in 1999, when this

18 Nerodimlje zone was established, did you know about this data or did you

19 just find out from the lawyer who provided you with this document?

20 A. We knew about every brigade, about every staff, before they were

21 actually established.

22 Q. Let us not go into all of these details. Turn to page 6, or 7

23 maybe, titled "Village Staffs."

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you please put it on the

25 overhead projector.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Have you seen this? What does it say? Village Staffs attached to

3 the 161st Brigade.

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Let us disregard all the other staffs. What is written in the

6 middle column, number 3?

7 A. "Staff of Racak village, commander Bilali Afet, nicknamed Qofa.

8 Q. So it says: "Racak, commander, Afet Bilali Qofa, also known as

9 Qofa. Is Rance also listed?

10 A. Village of Rance is also there

11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Janicevic, could you indicate the part with your

12 pointer.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Number 3. This isn't numbered, but

14 it's in the middle column. Number 3 is village Racak staff.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Tell us: Which of these villages are in the immediate vicinity?

17 A. Rance, three kilometres to the west of Racak. Laniste, four

18 kilometres south-west of Racak. Zborce, two kilometres to the north of

19 Racak. Crnoljevo, a kilometre and a half from Racak. Karacica is a bit

20 further away, about five kilometres from Racak. Petrovo and Krajmirovce,

21 seven and a half kilometres. Manastirce, seven to eight kilometres away.

22 Malopoljce, three kilometres away. Burnik is a bit further away. Jezerce

23 is eight kilometres from Racak.

24 Q. So this 161st Brigade covers Racak and the surrounding villages?

25 A. Correct. Correct. The headquarters of the staff of the 161st

1 Brigade was in Rance.

2 Q. Which one?

3 A. Rance.

4 Q. A kilometre and a half or two away from Racak?

5 A. Right. All these sub-staffs, as they were called, or village

6 staffs, were linked to the command of the 161st Brigade.

7 Q. This was tab 10. We won't deal with it any more. Turn to 10.1.

8 What does it depict? What do we see under tab 10.1? It is a series of

9 photos.

10 MR. NICE: Two points, please, if I may. If we look back to the

11 sometimes it may be thought artful method of questioning by the accused,

12 we see that he says at line 14 on page 21, Have you seen this? What does

13 it say? Village staffs attached to ... The answer is Correct. And then

14 we've gone through the chart, it being quite unclear to me whether the

15 witness is giving any evidence himself now of these matters or if he's

16 simply reading the chart out.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: He's reading the chart.

18 JUDGE KWON: My understanding is he confirms the content of it.

19 We can clarify.

20 MR. NICE: Well, I'm sorry to be difficult, but I reviewed --

21 incidentally, I reviewed the first four pages of yesterday's evidence

22 overnight and it was striking to me again how easily we are -- not we are

23 allowing, but how easily the accused gets away with effect leading

24 questions time and again because we just can't be resisting them on every

25 occasion. But the rule against leading questions does have a value and it

1 has value because you the Court need to know what is the evidential status

2 of the answers being given. And at the moment it's clear, for example, on

3 this last passage, that there is uncertainty amongst the professional

4 lawyers and judges in Court as to what is actually happening.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: The point about that uncertainty, Mr. Nice, is that

6 it will be held against the questioner. The whole point about the rule

7 against leading questions is that the answers are of little value. And

8 therefore, if evidence is extracted in that way, then it will be weak

9 evidence so far as the questioner is concerned. And I, for one, am just

10 exhausted trying to make the point, because it just never gets taken. And

11 there's a limit to how much you can do to try to persuade someone

12 conducting his own case to try to do it with a modicum of common sense.

13 MR. NICE: I understand Your Honour's position. I'll try to be

14 conservative in my objections. But on the other hand, I am troubled by

15 what I read or reread of yesterday's evidence.

16 JUDGE KWON: There's merit in Mr. Nice's point. Let us move on,

17 bearing that point in your mind.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Kwon, that has -- that's

19 pointless, because in lists of documents, Mr. Kwon, I just identified the

20 document that I want the witness to comment upon and to say whether that

21 is correct or incorrect. I read what it says at the top, that these are

22 the village staffs of the 161st Brigade. That is what is written there,

23 in order to identify the document. And then he was the one who was

24 enumerating them, explaining where they are, how far away.

25 JUDGE KWON: I think we have made the point very clear. Let us

1 move on with the questions.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. All right. Mr. Janicevic, what is this photo documentation, these

4 photo files in tab 10.1? What does it represent?

5 A. The photo documentation in tab 10.1 is part of the on-site

6 investigation conducted on the 28th of September, 1998 in Jezerce.

7 MR. NICE: Before we put these pictures on and I can see what

8 they're like, relevance. What's the relevance of this to this trial? If

9 it's going to be suggested that the KLA did bad things in 1998, it may

10 well be this isn't challenged. But what's the relevance of this material

11 at this trial at this stage?

12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I don't want to lead, so let's

14 look at these pictures. We don't have to look at the first page, but

15 let's look at the next page. Just put it on the ELMO. You don't want me

16 to lead, I shouldn't put leading questions, so just have a look at the

17 next page. What have you got on that? What are these photographs? Let

18 the witness tell you. Because if you let me put the question, then you're

19 going to say: Ah, did I ask him whether it's a church or a mosque or

20 whatever.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Let me ask the witness: Were you part of the

22 on-site investigation?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not personally, but my staff workers

24 were. My crime technicians and scene-of-crime officers.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: When did you first see the photograph?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Immediately after the on-site

2 investigation. I cannot remember the exact date, but say two or three

3 days later.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: In my view, these are relevant, and I don't see any

5 objection. In the face of the failure of the Prosecution to concede these

6 events, then the accused is entitled to prove them.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Janicevic, we won't put the first photograph on the overhead

9 projector, but please put the second photograph on. Let me not say

10 anything about what is on the photograph. Then the third one.

11 Put the second one first on the ELMO. Can you see that?

12 A. I can see it.

13 Q. What are these photographs? This is a set of four photographs.

14 What is depicted there?

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness's microphone please be

16 adjusted. The interpreters cannot hear him.

17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Janicevic, could you speak into the microphone,

18 please, when you speak.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the first photograph, in the

20 upper left-hand corner, is a trench that the terrorists dug at the

21 entrance to Jezerce from the direction of Nerodimlje.

22 On the second photograph, in the lower left-hand corner, there is

23 yet another trench that was dug as an extension of the upper trench, in

24 the direction of Nerodimlje, next to the road.

25 The third photograph, in the upper right-hand corner is a barrier

1 on the road, or rather, it's a hole that was dug and then planks were

2 placed over it. It was supposed to prevent the police from entering the

3 village, because if vehicles tried to get in, they would fall into the

4 hole.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Janicevic, what were these trenches used for? And do you have

7 some knowledge of your own from the relevant time what they were used for

8 and what kind of activity was carried out from there?

9 A. Assaults on police patrols in the area, and possibly for defence

10 from the police that would take measures in order to arrest the terrorist

11 groups that were in the area.

12 Q. Could you please look at the next page and tell us very briefly,

13 what are the photographs on the next page? Again, there is a set of four

14 photographs.

15 A. The first photograph in the upper left-hand corner is a bunker.

16 The second one is again an obstacle on the road.

17 Q. Similar to --

18 A. Yes, to what I showed a few moments ago. In the upper right-hand

19 corner it's the same thing, before it was removed. And the last

20 photograph is a terrorist who was killed in a clash with the security

21 forces.

22 Q. Can uniforms be seen on the photographs where the killed persons

23 are?

24 A. Yes. In these photographs, we can see their uniforms too, with

25 insignia of the KLA.

1 Q. Could you please take a look at the next photograph. What is on

2 that photograph? You can see part of a red vehicle here, unless I'm

3 leading when I say that you can see part of a vehicle.

4 A. It's a Lada Niva. Rockets can be seen there for a hand-held

5 rocket launcher. And there are also two hand-grenades and some ammunition

6 of 7.9 millimetres. On the right-hand side is a rifle, Chinese-made.

7 That can be seen.

8 Q. Look at the next photograph, the next page, rather. What can be

9 seen on these photographs?

10 A. On the first photograph, in the upper left-hand corner, you can

11 see equipment that was found at their headquarters, as well as uniforms

12 and caps with KLA insignia. On the left-hand side, in the bottom, is part

13 of the body of a killed terrorist. On the right-hand side is a bunker in

14 the lower left-hand corner.

15 Q. Look at the next page, please. There are only three photographs

16 there.

17 A. There's a trench on the first photograph, from which the

18 terrorists attacked members of the police and army, and from there they

19 also kidnapped citizens who were moving along that road.

20 In the middle photograph there is a parapet in the rocks.

21 And on the third one is a machine-gun, behind which we can see the

22 parapet.

23 Q. Are all of these photographs from the on-site investigation after

24 the terrorist action that was carried out on your territory that you saw

25 immediately after they were made, and does this have to do with the

1 investigation that was carried out?

2 A. This is only part of the photographs that were taken.

3 Q. But the ones that we showed, did you see all of them at the time?

4 A. Yes, I saw all of them at the time.

5 Q. To the best of your recollection, how many brigades were there in

6 the Nerodimlje area?

7 A. To the best of my recollection, the so-called operational zone of

8 Nerodimlje had two brigades and one brigade that was being established;

9 161, 162, and 163 was only on paper, because it didn't function because

10 there weren't enough interested people in the territory of the

11 municipality for which it had been established.

12 Q. Now tell us where and when you came to this information about the

13 establishment of the Nerodimlje zone and those units that they honour by

14 calling them brigades.

15 A. We got this information through operative work, through police

16 work on the ground, through friendly connections, through persons who

17 collaborated with us and who were part of the top echelons of these

18 organisations in October 1998.

19 Q. Is there any information contained in tab 11 which speaks of this

20 Nerodimlje Operative Zone of the KLA, including names? And what do you

21 know about this information? What does it constitute?

22 A. Tab 11?

23 Q. Yes, tab 11.

24 MR. KAY: [Previous translation continues]... be an exhibit?

25 JUDGE KWON: Yes. The same thing can be said in relation to tab

1 11 as tab 10. You didn't see this document in 1999; instead, you saw this

2 document for the first time only recently?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please. Recently I saw the document

4 in this form. However, the information that is contained here, I don't

5 know whether you have a translation, but there's information here about

6 the brigades and then the text reads as follows --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please be asked to slow down.

8 JUDGE KWON: I think I know the answer.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: But the -- can you help us by telling us what the

10 document actually is and how it was compiled?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know how it was compiled before,

12 but it was probably compiled the same way now too. All operative

13 knowledge, all information that members of the public and State Security

14 Service collect are sent to a single point.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: But you say that this information was in a

16 document, and now it appears in this Court in some other form, in a

17 different document. Is that the position?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This information was sent in its

19 original form to the person who processed all the information and who

20 compiled this document. This has to do with the establishment and

21 functioning of this so-called operational zone of Nerodimlje. So this

22 document was compiled on the basis of several documents that were

23 collected during 1998 and 1999.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: So who compiled this document, then?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The state security sector. Probably

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1 they're people who work in analysis.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: I have to say it sounds to me as if you're

3 speculating about what happened, you don't actually know, because you've

4 never seen a document in this form before.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw this document during my

6 preparations, but over the past 30 years, I saw perhaps 300 such

7 documents, this type of document, that is.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: So have you any idea why we're not looking at the

9 ones that you were working with in your professional life?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What do you mean by saying why you

11 are not looking at something that I had not prepared? I don't understand

12 the question, really.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: You were familiar with documents which gave the

14 sort of information which is in this document. This is one you've never

15 seen. And what I'm wondering is why we haven't got the ones that you

16 normally saw in your everyday, professional life. Have you any idea, or

17 is that something you can't help with?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The documents that I saw during my

19 professional career - let me repeat what I said a few moments ago - were

20 all submitted to a higher instance. As far as terrorism is concerned, in

21 this situation, the higher instance is the state security sector, and all

22 relevant information was sent to them, indicating that there were

23 terrorist groups that were active, that they were engaged in criminal

24 activity, et cetera. Everything that had to do with them was sent further

25 on to the state security sector, or a particular department in this case.

1 Then they would send it further up to their top echelons of the state

2 security. And then, on the basis of all the documents that they would

3 obtain from a particular area, they would compile a comprehensive piece of

4 information containing descriptions of everything that was going on.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, prior -- yes, I understand. Prior to being

6 proofed for this case, had you ever seen such a document, one of these

7 comprehensive documents?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw many such documents, but I saw

9 this particular document too. If I could --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: You saw this one when?

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear the witness.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: We didn't get the answer to that. You saw this

13 document when?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During my preparations for this

15 trial.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: We're going around in circles here, and I

17 appreciate -- unproductive circles, but it demonstrates at the moment a

18 lack of understanding on your part of what this document is. If you, in

19 your everyday, professional life, saw comprehensive compilations, compiled

20 within the State Security Service office, what I would like to know is why

21 we're not working from them and why we're working from a document that you

22 never saw in your professional life and you actually don't know how it was

23 compiled. Now, can you answer that question? And if you can't, just say

24 so.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document was compiled on the

1 basis of information that members of the service collected. I repeat:

2 Even my information is contained here, information that I personally

3 compiled. That is contained in this document. And I don't understand --

4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Janicevic, you may not understand the rule of

5 evidence. Let's move on, briefly. We'll treat these tabs equally, the

6 same way as we did in relation to tab 10.

7 Move on, Mr. Milosevic.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Janicevic, you said just now that in this document we find

10 information that you personally provided to a superior authority, either

11 to your colleagues in the RDB or elsewhere; is that right?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. Well, you said that a moment ago. Now, what information did you

14 have at that time which is contained in this document, what information

15 did you have at your disposal at the time when these events took place?

16 A. This is information of the initial stages of the forming of

17 terrorist groups in the Urosevac area, Likud 2, and this is a summary of

18 the information received, information about the establishment of the 161st

19 Brigade staff and the 167th Brigade staff, their overall activity in the

20 area covered by the secretariat. The way they were financed, for

21 instance, the way they collected money for the purchase of weapons, how

22 they sent out their terrorists to Albania in order to procure weapons, for

23 instance.

24 Q. Very well. Now, to what extent do you have direct information,

25 you yourself, collected by your staff and your collaborators, are

1 contained in this comprehensive report?

2 A. Well, over 80 per cent, I'd say.

3 Q. So that is information from your own area which you amassed in the

4 line of duty, your professional duty?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And what about the source information that was sent out to higher

7 instances, the DB, for example, and other ministries?

8 A. The source information, original information, was sent out and a

9 copy of that piece of information would stay in the RDB or the MUP.

10 Q. Very well, thank you. Tell me, please: Where was the staff

11 located? So I'm not asking about this document any more, because, as

12 Mr. Kwon said, we would deal with it in the way he stated, once we

13 establish whether it is an authentic document or not. Tell me: Where was

14 the staff of the 161st Brigade and its headquarters located, and who was

15 its commander?

16 A. The staff and headquarters of the 161 Brigade of the KLA was in

17 the village of Rance. In the initial stages of its inception that's where

18 it was, and for one month after it had been established, that's where it

19 was. The commander of the staff was Muzilica [phoen], nicknamed Cecica

20 [phoen]. And towards the end of 1998, the headquarters of the staff was

21 moved to the village of Petrovo which is also in the Stimlje municipality.

22 Q. Tell us about the municipality of Stimlje. Is it part of the

23 territory of the collection of municipalities covered by the SUP of

24 Urosevac, at whose head you were?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Including all the villages, all the villages that you're

2 mentioning now, does it come under your area of responsibility as chief of

3 police for the area?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. This terrorist brigade, was it active only in your own area or was

6 it active partially in other areas as well?

7 A. From time to time, it was active in Lipljani and Suva Reka, those

8 two areas.

9 Q. And where was its action focussed on?

10 A. Predominantly in the Stimlje municipality and that general area,

11 or rather, in the area of the Crnoljevska gorge, which is where the main

12 road running from Pristina to Prizren lies, via Stimlje, in 1998. And in

13 1998, we had almost daily provocations and attacks along this road which

14 was used by military vehicles, police patrols, military transport,

15 civilian cars as well, passenger vehicles, and so on. There were many

16 casualties, a lot of vehicles damaged, and so on.

17 Q. All right. Let's move on and be even more specific. Tell us

18 where the sub-staff of this brigade was located in the village of Racak

19 that you just mentioned.

20 A. The sub-staff of the brigade was located in the house belonging to

21 Mustafa Mehmed [phoen], I think that's what the proprietor's name was, in

22 the village of Racak.

23 Q. And who was the commander of that staff in the village of Racak?

24 A. Afet Bilali, nicknamed Qofa,

25 Q. Tell us now, please, Mr. Janicevic -- or rather, take a look at

1 the following tabs, that is to say, tab 12 -- let's take them in their

2 order. Tab 12 first, which is a report compiled by -- who compiled the

3 report? You read it out to avoid me asking leading questions. What does

4 it say at the top? What does it say in the upper left-hand corner?

5 A. May I just take a moment to find the document.

6 Q. It's tab 12.

7 A. Yes. The report was compiled --

8 Q. Take a look at what it says in the upper left-hand corner. It

9 says: "Republic of Serbia MUP, Urosevac SUP." The fact that it says

10 Republic of Serbia MUP and Urosevac SUP, is that the SUP that you headed?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Is this a document we've seen already?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, it is. However --

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Why are we going over it again with this witness?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Because the most responsible police

16 official is here, under whose leadership these people collected this

17 information.

18 MR. KAY: It's tab 216 in the Jasovic binder. If we could sort

19 out tab 11 at this stage. Is it going to be MFI'd, Your Honour?

20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, pending the authenticity is resolved and pending

21 translation.

22 MR. KAY: Yes.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Janicevic, as head of the Secretariat of the Interior and the

25 number-one man leading these authorised personnel, can you confirm the

1 authenticity of the contents of this report and the legality in which it

2 was compiled?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: How do you do that? Tell me how you do that. Were

6 you there when the report was being compiled?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This report was being -- was

8 compiled in November 1998 and I read through it personally and sent it on

9 for further work to be done.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Would this kind of report have to be shown you? Did it have to be

12 shown you?

13 A. Yes. That was the general obligation. Every piece of

14 information, every report, even reports of lesser importance, had to come

15 to me.

16 Q. In tab 13, do we have another report by authorised personnel

17 belonging to your SUP, the SUP that you headed?

18 JUDGE KWON: I guess this has been already exhibited.

19 MR. KAY: 221.

20 JUDGE KWON: I beg your pardon?

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Kay.

22 MR. KAY: 221.

23 JUDGE KWON: 221.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Can you confirm that this report was compiled in keeping with the

2 rules of service governing your Secretariat of the Interior, or rather,

3 the Ministry of the Interior, and that the information contained therein

4 is exact and true?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. NICE: I do have to observe the formulation of the last part

7 of that question. It's getting by, but ...

8 JUDGE KWON: Having dealt with this matter already with

9 Mr. Jasovic, I don't think it's necessary, but let us move on.

10 What's the question, Mr. Milosevic?

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Did you, as head of the Secretariat of the Interior -- or to avoid

13 asking you a leading question, let me put it this way: Once you receive a

14 report of this kind, did you undertake any steps to check out the

15 information provided, to attempt to look at another source to check out

16 the information or to check out the information contained on the spot, in

17 the actual location?

18 A. Of course that every report was checked and investigated and

19 verified through a number of sources, and each operative, every member of

20 the State Security Service, had his associates and friendly ties and

21 informants as well. For this kind of report to be written and compiled,

22 it had to be checked out according to many sources and many times. And

23 this kind of report was sent on to the State Security Service.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Tell me how you did that, when you got this

25 report. What would you do to check out its accuracy?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before a report of this kind is

2 compiled, is written out --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no. Once you've got it, what was it you did,

4 you personally, as the chief, to check out its accuracy?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm trying to explain the process to

6 you. Before such a report is ever compiled, the operative workers dealing

7 with each subject or problem, if you like, write an official report, a

8 short official note about what they're doing and how far they have come.

9 And then that is verified through a number of sources, through the State

10 Security Service's sources. And then, once they have been verified and

11 checked, this kind of report is compiled, which is sent on to the State

12 Security Service ultimately.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Give me a concrete example. What sort of thing

14 would happen when the original note was written here? What check would

15 you personally carry out? Because it's you that's saying that you carried

16 out the checks to vouch for the accuracy and truthfulness of this

17 statement.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A report compiled in this way was

19 sent out to the State Security Service, the State Security Service

20 department, and then they carried on with their verification of this

21 information. Although, before, it was already checked out and verified

22 before it was compiled in this way, and that was done by higher instances

23 than me; the chief of police or the chief of the crime prevention

24 department. So it had to pass by three or four levels before it reached

25 the head of the SUP. And this is the ultimate stage, which is then sent

1 on up above.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Tell me to whom this would go, this -- or the

3 previous -- I don't know now which -- I thought you wanted me to

4 concentrate on the previous, the earlier draft, the first note. Who would

5 it go to to be checked before the report was written?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before the report was written, it

7 was verified by the commanders of the police stations, the heads of

8 department, and the heads of the administrative departments. And each

9 operative --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues]... before it was

11 ever written. Who would it go to and which police offices before it was

12 written?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Leading policemen; the chief of the

14 police stations or deputy chiefs of police stations in charge of this kind

15 of thing.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Your staff are working in a police station. So

17 which other police stations would this go to before it became a report?

18 How many other police stations would it have gone through to be checked,

19 according to you?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think you understood me.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Obviously not.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The policemen, policemen, when they

23 go in the field and talk to the operatives, when they come back, they

24 write a report or what is known as an official note. That official note

25 is sent out to the assistant or deputy commander. The deputy commander

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1 then assesses whether the official note should be sent on or whether it

2 should stay there. If he has information saying that it is accurate, it

3 stays. If not, it is rejected. If it is sent on, it is sent on to the

4 inspectors in charge of the lines of work that check it out further still.

5 And if they confirm its accuracy, then they go on to write this kind of

6 report, which is sent to the chief of the department and then sent up to

7 the chief of SUP.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay. So we've now established that this all

9 happens within the one police office, I think. Now, what sort of check

10 would an officer, a more senior officer, make on the note --

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Please don't interrupt.

13 What sort of check would the next officer up from Mr. Jasovic make

14 before processing the matter further?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's like this: Operative

16 work is a very complex job, to gather and amass information. For

17 instance, this piece of information, the officer in charge of that police

18 officer, he has his operative positions on the ground. And for every

19 information that comes in, every paragraph, for example, here Zejn Osmani

20 is mentioned. He goes on the spot in the field to check out whether this

21 man Zejn Osmani is really there, what he does, what he's doing.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Jasovic's superior, when he gets the note, he will

23 go out to check that this person is actually there; is that what you're

24 saying?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not the superior Jasovic. The SUP,

1 the Ministry of the Interior, there is a line of work according to the

2 crime in the area, whether we're dealing with theft, killings, terrorist

3 acts or whatever the type of crime. There are different categories of

4 crimes, I don't want to have to enumerate them all now. And every piece

5 of information, every official note, goes to the source, to the operative

6 worker there, who checks this piece of information out. In this case,

7 Jasovic and --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm asking you to take this concrete example and

9 tell me who, after Jasovic compiled his first note, would actually do

10 something to check it out and what he would do.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Jasovic did not compile the first

12 official note. Jasovic worked as an inspector. Jasovic received

13 information from the policeman on the ground, and then he verified and

14 checked out that information. And on the basis of the information he

15 gained and the official note, he would compile, go on to compile this kind

16 of report. This report was then sent on up --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: So you're saying Mr. Jasovic did not obtain the

18 information which is contained in this report. Have I got that correct?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Partially correct. He did

20 partially. He checked out the information he received. And on the basis

21 of confirmation of that information, compiled this report.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I would be very grateful if someone at the

23 break will identify where in Mr. Jasovic's evidence he told us that that

24 was the way in which he went about his work.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just before we break, one question,

1 if I may.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Janicevic, Mr. Bonomy mentioned a police station. Tell us:

4 How many police stations were there within the frameworks of your

5 Secretariat of the Interior?

6 A. Four police stations.

7 Q. I didn't hear you. Could you repeat.

8 A. Four.

9 Q. So you say four police stations came under your Secretariat of the

10 Interior; is that right?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Janicevic, do you have tab 13 in front of you,

14 report by Mr. Jasovic?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE KWON: After Mr. Jasovic produced this document, there was

17 no further mechanism to check the veracity of this document; am I right?

18 This is the final report on the part of that police station?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the final -- Jasovic wasn't

20 in the police station. Jasovic worked in the department for crime

21 prevention. He was an inspector there. This report was sent on further

22 to the State Security Service, the RDB, for further processing.

23 JUDGE KWON: That's the answer I like to hear. This is the final

24 report.

25 We'll adjourn for 20 minutes.

1 --- Recess taken at 10.41 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nice.

4 MR. NICE: Simply to respond to the question of His Honour Judge

5 Bonomy shortly before the break. I haven't been able to find a passage of

6 the kind he wondered if we could identify. My recollection is rather to

7 the contrary, and indeed I have found, although I've now temporarily

8 misplaced a passage where he gave an explanation that the Chamber may

9 recall of people either coming voluntarily or being brought to the police

10 station for him to speak to, and the clear implication from his evidence

11 as a whole was that it was all personal contacts from him and others at

12 the police station in an interview setting. He never gave -- to my

13 recollection, he never gave evidence to a contrary effect or to the effect

14 that he was relying on derivative information.

15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Nice.

16 Mr. Milosevic, please proceed.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Janicevic, you just said that your Secretariat of Interior in

19 Urosevac had four police stations.

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. One of those four police stations -- in fact, was one of them the

22 police station in Stimlje?

23 A. Yes. We had police stations in Stimlje, Urosevac, Strpce and

24 Kacanik.

25 Q. How many people worked in the Stimlje police station?

1 A. Around 50, together with the senior personnel.

2 Q. How large a territory is covered by Stimlje police station?

3 A. The entire municipality of Stimlje, about 20 or so villages,

4 including Stimlje.

5 Q. Did policemen who worked at that police station move around the

6 entire municipality of Stimlje, including all the villages?

7 A. Yes, until 1998. Until mid-1998, I should say.

8 Q. And afterwards, what happened?

9 A. After mid-1998, terrorist actions and activities began. Some

10 villages were held by terrorists and clashes occurred, threats,

11 provocations. It was not safe for the police to enter all the villages.

12 Q. A moment ago Mr. Nice quoted Witness Jasovic as saying that he

13 interviewed people who had been brought to the police station. Who would

14 bring those people to the police station, on what account, and how would

15 they end up being interviewed by Jasovic?

16 A. People would pass through police checkpoints, and some of them

17 would behave suspiciously, some would be suspected to be KLA terrorists,

18 some would be suspected of being wanted for various crimes and offences,

19 and they would be brought in, taken into custody. Not only Jasovic, but

20 all the other officers were involved in the work of elucidating these

21 crimes.

22 Q. On what grounds would those people be brought in? On the basis of

23 what information? Would that be an order issued by the police station

24 commander or operative information?

25 A. A list of suspects would be drawn up based on operative

1 information. There would be a list of persons suspected of having

2 committed a criminal offence or being involved in a terrorist group. IDs

3 would be checked, and those people would be brought in for interviews.

4 Q. Those interviews would then be conducted by police inspectors at

5 the headquarters of the secretariat?

6 A. Yes, and they were not limited to Jasovic and Sparavalo.

7 Q. How many inspectors were there?

8 A. In the department for crime prevention, there were a number of

9 inspectors. All of them were involved in this work, including Jasovic and

10 Sparavalo.

11 Q. This information under tab 13, is that an original document of

12 your Secretariat of the Interior?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. Did you read this report at the time when it was drawn up?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Did each of these reports have to be submitted to you for your

17 consideration?

18 A. Yes, all of them had to be submitted to me, and I decided to what

19 authorities they would be forwarded, whether to the State Security Service

20 or the staff of the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia, or

21 elsewhere.

22 Q. You mean the staff in Serbia, the ministry staff in Serbia?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. We'll move now to tab 14. We have a statement here. Is that an

25 original document of your secretariat?

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE KWON: [Previous translation continues]... Jasovic binder?

3 MR. KAY: 133.

4 JUDGE KWON: Which was admitted already?

5 MR. KAY: Yes.

6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Kay.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Did you have occasion to read this statement at the time when it

9 was taken from the person signed?

10 A. Yes. I think -- in fact, I am certain that I read this statement.

11 JUDGE KWON: You should have a translation, then. Could the court

12 deputy find out. Let us proceed.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Does this statement make reference to any terrorist activity or

15 the presence of people involved in terrorist activities in the village of

16 Racak?

17 A. The person who gave this statement claims that they saw Afet

18 Bilali, Rifat Imeri and Nusret Musliu wearing KLA uniforms. All of these

19 people were natives of Racak.

20 Q. Would you please read paragraph 4. I don't want to spend too much

21 time on this. What does he say? The paragraph begins with the words:

22 "In the month of December ..."

23 A. "In December this year, in the village of Racak, I saw Afet Bilali

24 Rifat Imeri and Nusret Musliu wearing uniforms with KLA insignia and

25 carrying automatic rifles. I was in Racak for the last time on the 18th

1 of December, 1998, where, on the road leading to the mosque in Racak, I

2 saw four persons wearing KLA uniforms, or uniforms with KLA insignia, and

3 carrying automatic rifles. I recognised Isljama Imeri from Racak

4 village."

5 Q. Now, on the basis of similar statements, would you establish the

6 composition, the strength, and the type of activities engaged in by the

7 KLA in a particular area?

8 A. Yes. But also on the basis of other types of information we would

9 receive, not only in the statements.

10 Q. Very well. Look at tab 15. Do you see there a statement that is

11 another document from your Secretariat of the Interior?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE KWON: Is it not also admitted through Jasovic? If so,

14 what's the point of going all over it again?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The point is that Mr. Janicevic, who

16 was chief of that Secretariat of the Interior, might confirm whether this

17 is an authentic document of his Secretariat of the Interior in view of the

18 information contained.

19 JUDGE KWON: Ask specific questions which Mr. Janicevic could

20 answer with his personal knowledge and which cannot be dealt with through

21 Mr. Jasovic. Time is very precious.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. Janicevic, did you read this statement at the time when it was

24 taken?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Did it have any importance to you, as chief of the secretariat?

2 A. Of course it had importance. We had a number of terrorists whose

3 presence was established in the village of Racak, headed by the commander

4 of the Main Staff.

5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Kay, could you give us a comprehensive knowledge

6 how much it's duplicated with Jasovic exhibits?

7 MR. KAY: We've tracked -- tab 15 is 1.55 in Jasovic. Tab 16 is

8 tab 1.8 in Jasovic, and that's as far as it goes. We haven't been able to

9 find any more.

10 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Please let us know as soon as you find out.

11 MR. KAY: Yes.

12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

13 MR. KAY: There is a translation of tab 14 in the Jasovic binders.

14 Ms. Higgins has done copies.

15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Let's move on very quickly. We dealt

16 with these statements and report already.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In that case, I will be asking only

18 short questions.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Janicevic, under tab 16 there is another statement. Is that

21 an authentic document of your Secretariat of the Interior? Please look at

22 the statement.

23 A. I'm looking at it now. It is an authentic document.

24 Q. Did you read it at the time when it was drawn up?

25 A. Yes, I did. It was taken together with members of the state

1 security sector.

2 Q. On what basis do you claim that?

3 A. Because among the signatures we see the signature of Srboljub

4 Vojinovic, who was representing the state security sector in Urosevac.

5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, did we not deal with all the

6 statements or reports taken by or written by Mr. Jasovic? Did we? And

7 this should have been included in Jasovic exhibits or in Stevanovic

8 exhibits, given the number tab 305. You should be aware of this.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but I have in front of me the

10 former chief of Urosevac SUP, and I'm seeking confirmation of authenticity

11 of documents originating from his secretariat, his former secretariat, and

12 I'm asking him whether he had seen them at the time.

13 JUDGE KWON: Move on very quickly and get to Racak event as soon

14 as possible.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. I would ask you the same request about the statement in tab 17:

17 Is that an authentic document of your secretariat?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 MR. KAY: No record in Jasovic of tab 17, as far as we can see.

20 JUDGE KWON: How about Stevanovic? Please do so, yes. Thank you.

21 Next question, Mr. Milosevic.

22 MR. NICE: Just pausing there. Tab 17, unless others have it,

23 there is no translation.

24 While I'm on my feet: The translations that have been given out

25 this morning I gather mean that we now have different translations of that

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1 document. I think this morning may be different from the one in the

2 Jasovic binder. It's a small point, but it's something to have in mind.

3 But in any case, no translation for 17 and we haven't seen this document

4 before. I haven't yet been able to check whether the names are apparently

5 significant.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: You're saying that there are translations given to

7 you for which ones?

8 MR. NICE: I think it was 16.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Nice.

10 MR. NICE: 16, and I think -- 15, I beg your pardon. 15. We've

11 now got two different translations.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, are they materially different?

13 MR. NICE: I don't know yet, I haven't checked, but we're not

14 being provided the same document. More significant, 17, no translation,

15 is the problem for us.

16 JUDGE KWON: We don't have it either, but that can be sorted out

17 later, whether they were the ones exhibited already or not.

18 Let us move on.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Under tab 17 are persons listed from the village of Racak who are

21 said to be members of the KLA?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What is the date?

24 A. 22nd November 1998.

25 Q. Have you already confirmed the authenticity of this document from

1 your secretariat?

2 A. Yes. It is an authentic document.

3 Q. Could you narrow down the area where this terrorist brigade was

4 active?

5 A. The so-called 161st Terrorist Brigade of the KLA was active in the

6 area of Stimlje and the area of Urosevac. The area of Stimlje covers the

7 following villages: Racak, Petrovo, Belince, Crnoljevo, Laniste, Topilo,

8 Devecak, Malopoljce, Muzicane, Racince [phoen], Petrovic, Gornje Godance,

9 Donje Godance, Zborce and Petrastica. And of course Crnoljevo and the

10 Crnoljevo gorge, the entire gorge.

11 Q. You just mentioned a moment ago that from the Crnoljevska gorge

12 you see the road to Prizren.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In which area was this brigade of the KLA active?

15 A. Municipality of Kacanik and municipality of Strpce.

16 Q. Where were its headquarters?

17 A. In the village of Ivaja, area of Kacanik. The commander was Ibri

18 Razi [phoen], also known as Bardi [phoen]. He also died in a fight with

19 our security forces. He was replaced by Dzabir Zarko.

20 In addition to that base of the brigade, which was in Ivaja, the

21 brigade had its sub-staffs in villages. Vodenica, Bob, Icevac, Kovacevac,

22 Dubrava, Slatina, and other villages where they also had their sub-staffs

23 but with a smaller number of members.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: I think there's something missing from the

25 transcript. Are we now dealing with a different brigade?

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I put a question that had to do with

2 the 162nd Brigade, and a few moments ago we were dealing with the 161st

3 Brigade. And what the witness said now --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: It doesn't appear in the transcript that you've

5 moved on to the 162nd [Realtime transcript read in error "161nd"] Brigade,

6 although it's obvious from the answers that we're dealing with something

7 different. And indeed, the transcript is now compounded it by calling it

8 the "161nd Brigade." It should be the 162nd Brigade.

9 JUDGE KWON: That having been clarified, let's go on.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Janicevic, please look at tab 18, or rather, 18, 18.1, 18.2,

12 and so on. What kind of documents are these? Please look at 18.1. It is

13 a statement taken from Adem Salahu, from the village of Bicevac,

14 municipality of Kacanik. Jasovic and Sparavalo took the statement, as

15 well as Nebojsa Djordjevic, who works for state security, and it was done,

16 therefore, together with the RDB, the state security of the Republic.

17 In this statement, we have a long list of KLA members, because

18 they say that the following members took part in the KLA activities.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So this arrested KLA member gives a list of his colleagues from

21 the KLA on several pages of this statement.

22 A. That's right.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you tell us the circumstances in which this

24 person came to give the statement?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This person was brought in to

1 custody by the police, or rather, brought in for an interview.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: For what?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The suspicion was that he was a

4 member of the terrorist organisation of the KLA. Later on, as he made his

5 statement and gave his interview, that proved to be true.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: And was action taken against him?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure. I cannot remember

8 now, but I think that he was remanded into custody and handed over to the

9 investigating judge.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

11 JUDGE KWON: Is it usual for your inspector to take a statement

12 together with a person from state security?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When terrorism is concerned, there

14 were cases when statements were taken together, and it was advisable,

15 because members of the State Security Service had more information about

16 the terrorist organisations, groups, and individuals who were active in

17 that way. That would make the statement proper and in that way the

18 statement could lead to proceedings being initiated against such persons.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. At the time when this statement was taken, did you have the

21 opportunity of seeing it, reading it?

22 A. Yes. I had the opportunity of seeing it, reading it,

23 familiarising myself with its content, and it was also sent to the MUP

24 headquarters, in addition to being sent further on to the State Security

25 Service.

1 Q. Tell me now, Mr. Janicevic: What does the document contained in

2 tab 18.2 relate to?

3 MR. KAY: Can tab 18.1 be an exhibit?

4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

5 MR. KAY: And can tab 17 be --

6 JUDGE KWON: No. Was it not included in the Jasovic binder?

7 MR. KAY: I haven't been able to find it.

8 JUDGE KWON: We have to deal with it. We have to hear from

9 Mr. Nice on this matter.

10 MR. NICE: 18.1 is, to my recollection, clearly new. I could be

11 wrong, but I simply don't recall seeing any kind of statement with a list

12 of names of that length. I don't at the moment recall and can't find the

13 person named Adem Salahu being dealt with. We don't have a translation

14 and it may be that this one should be marked for identification at most at

15 this stage. But I would also ask the Chamber to consider requiring of the

16 accused to identify any of these names on the list that he says are of

17 particular significance. Of course, we can go through the names and

18 calculate for him which, if any, of these names he now says are of

19 significance, but he should, frankly, be doing that for us. And simply to

20 come to that at the end of the whole exercise of the case and find that

21 these names are drawn out would not be very helpful.

22 JUDGE KWON: What would you mean by saying that to mark for

23 identification? Until what? Until when?

24 MR. NICE: Well, certainly until we've got a translation but

25 possibly also until I've asked questions about it, because I don't know

1 what I'm going to say yet about this statement or its reliability. How

2 can I?

3 JUDGE KWON: No further objection?

4 MR. NICE: No, but that objection is --

5 JUDGE KWON: Subject to your inquiry.

6 MR. NICE: Yes, of course.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification, as was suggested.

9 And if Mr. Milosevic could identify important names among this list.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask the witness,

11 Mr. Janicevic, to look at tab 18.1, which contains the statement made by

12 this KLA member who was brought in by the police and interviewed to

13 indicate certain names that he considers to be important on this list, the

14 persons who are mentioned as members of the KLA, that is.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One of the most important names is

16 Camilj Iljazi, nicknamed Barli, who was commander of the 161st Brigade.

17 After all, all of these names are important because all these people were

18 members of a terrorist organisation that operated in the area, together

19 with their commander.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. All right. Look at tab 18.2 now. This is an official note which

22 does not come from the Ministry of the Interior. What is this? What does

23 this pertain to? Please be so kind as to explain.

24 A. This note pertains to the area of the villages of Ivaja and

25 Kotlina. I received information from the MUP staff of the Republic of

1 Serbia that allegedly a massacre had been committed in the area against

2 civilians. Since this was an area where the military was in charge, I

3 asked the commander of the 243rd Brigade to inform me as to whether there

4 was anything going on there that would be of security interest, and I also

5 asked whether a massacre had been committed at all. My request was

6 responded to by way of this note. I think there's a translation here.

7 Yes, there is.

8 Q. What was it that you found out from this note that you received

9 from Lieutenant Colonel Djurovic? I see that he signed it. Or rather,

10 somebody else signed on his behalf. I can't read the signature, though.

11 A. I found out that in the area of Ivaja and Kotlina, there was a

12 mop-up operation. The Siptar terrorist gangs were mopped up within a

13 five-kilometre area. The 243rd Motorised Brigade took part in it, and

14 also the PJP, the special purposes unit from Urosevac. And some members

15 of the police station in Kacanik. The action was carried out according to

16 a plan of the 243rd Brigade, or rather, the border battalion of that

17 brigade. They informed me that they do not have any information about the

18 loss of life of a large number of civilians in the area.

19 Q. You've explained just now that you were actually checking

20 information that you received from the MUP staff.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you sought an explanation from the military commander in

23 charge of the area?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. So the answer was negative?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janicevic.

3 JUDGE KWON: In the passage I note that there were three young

4 women who were armed and partly dressed in uniforms. Did you know that at

5 the time?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew about it as soon as I

7 received this official note. Three younger women who were armed and

8 partly dressed in uniform.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Would there be an on-site investigation of these

10 events?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: What can you tell us about that?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After every anti-terrorist action

14 carried out by the MUP or the military in the area of the secretariat

15 where I was head of secretariat, always - and I emphasise always - an

16 on-site investigation was carried out. The investigating judge and the

17 scene-of-crime officers always went there and documented it by photographs

18 and video as well. Everything that happened.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Did that happen in relation to the event of the 9th

20 of April?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: So there must be a report of the on-site

23 investigation.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There must be.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: So why did you have to ask the army?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because in the reports that I

2 received, there was no information like the kind the staff was seeking

3 from me, so I wanted to double-check to see whether something had been

4 omitted, whether there was any omission on the part of the persons who

5 were there. The scene-of-crime officer who was there had not informed me

6 that a large number of civilians had lost their lives, so I was wondering

7 whether there had been an omission, whether something had been done in

8 that way. I don't know whether I'm being clear.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: That is clear, but by the 8th of May, when this

10 report was written, there had already been an investigation by your

11 officers and an investigating judge had been to carry out an on-site

12 investigation; have I got that correct?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The investigating judge went out the

14 same day when the terrorist action was over. Our report to the MUP staff

15 went on the same day when the action was completed, or rather, when I

16 received the report of the on-site investigation from the scene-of-crime

17 officers. This report probably went through some other channels, or

18 rather, this report about the killing of a larger number of civilians

19 probably went through the Verification Mission. So already on the next

20 day, the 9th or the 10th, I cannot recall the exact date, I wrote to the

21 commander of the 243rd Motorised Brigade, asking him whether he had any

22 information to that effect. It was only on the 8th of May that I received

23 a reply, a reply to my request.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: So it took him more than three weeks to reply to

25 you? Rather unsatisfactory. Anyway, thank you.

1 JUDGE KWON: I note several statements taken by Mr. Jasovic are

2 following this tab, so this -- so I take it that this official note was

3 based upon those investigations by Jasovic. Is it right? From tab 18 --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what number you're

5 referring to exactly.

6 JUDGE KWON: From 18.3 until 18. -- I don't know how long it goes.

7 A number of statements.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know which particular note

9 you're referring to, I beg your pardon. The one that we've been dealing

10 with until now?

11 JUDGE KWON: The official note, tab 18.2, was written on 8th of

12 May, 1999. The following tab, which was not dealt with yet by the

13 accused, is a statement taken by Mr. Jasovic on 1st of May. So when you

14 referred to on-site investigation, do you mean this kind of investigation

15 by Mr. Jasovic?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me just have a look at this.

17 18.2 has nothing to do with what Jasovic did.

18 JUDGE KWON: If you could take a look at 18.3.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see no similarity here, nor do I

20 see any link between this note compiled by Lieutenant Colonel Djurovic and

21 the one taken -- the statement taken by Jasovic.

22 JUDGE KWON: I'll leave it to the accused.

23 Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

24 MR. KAY: Can 18.2 be an exhibit?

25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

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1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. While we're still dealing with 18.2, what does 18.2 say towards

3 the end of the second paragraph? It says that investigators from the MUP

4 of Urosevac carried out the on-site investigation. That's what you said a

5 few moments ago.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So on the basis of the on-site investigation and all the

8 information you received, you did not know of the loss of lives of many

9 civilians; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Then you say that from the MUP staff, you were asked to resolve

12 the question whether this information about the killing of civilians was

13 correct.

14 A. Yes, that's right. And since I could not deal with the issue

15 through my own people, who were on the ground, because they told me that

16 no civilians were practically killed, I sought additional information. I

17 asked the military to tell me whether it was the situation or not.

18 Q. And the military told you that it was not correct?

19 A. Yes, it was, with a bit of a delay, but the military told me that

20 what was contained in that other information was not correct.

21 Q. All right. The statement that we have in tab 18.3, taken by

22 Jasovic, Sparavalo and Zoran Djordjevic -- Jasovic and Sparavalo we have

23 encountered on several occasions, Jasovic testified here, but who is

24 Djordjevic Zoran?

25 A. He was a member of the State Security Service of the Urosevac

1 department.

2 Q. So that is another example where they took the statements

3 together. Now what does this statement refer to and is this an authentic

4 document of your secretariat?

5 A. Yes, it is an authentic document and it relates to the

6 identification of individuals who were members of the terrorist

7 organisation of the KLA in the Kacanik area. The villages mentioned are

8 Nika, Kovacevac. That's all I can see here.

9 Q. Did you have an opportunity of reading the statement at the time

10 it was taken?

11 A. Quite certainly I did, but it's been six or seven years since

12 then, so I can't remember all the details of it.

13 Q. All right. Fine.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you know the circumstances in which the person

15 came to give the statement?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It doesn't say here. It doesn't

17 state the circumstances, but probably they were taken into custody by the

18 police who were in the checkpoint at that time.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: And does it follow you won't know what happened to

20 him afterwards?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After giving the statement, the

22 person was probably allowed to go home.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

24 JUDGE KWON: All you can say is that this is authentic document?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

1 JUDGE KWON: Did you bring this document with you when you came to

2 The Hague?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE KWON: How did you get this document?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I got the document from the forward

6 command post of the Urosevac SUP in Leskovac -- relocated command post.

7 And part of the documents were given me by the MUP, from the KiM document,

8 Kosovo and Metohija document, the group determining responsibility and

9 accountability of both Albanians and Serbs for the events in Kosovo. And

10 they amass all the relevant information and evidence in order to process

11 the matter further one day.

12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Tab 18.4 is a very brief statement. Who is this third person that

15 signed the statement?

16 A. Darko Amanovic, a member of the State Security Service.

17 Q. So this is a statement taken together by the public and State

18 Security Services; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What is this one about? What does it refer to?

21 A. It refers to persons who had collected money for the needs of the

22 so-called KLA, for its functioning or for the procurement and purchase of

23 the weapons, pursuant to an order by Rufki Suma from the village of Dimce.

24 Q. And then it says which KLA members he knows; is that right?

25 A. Yes. Rufki Suma was also the commander of the local staff for

1 Palivodenica.

2 Q. Is this again an authentic document by your secretariat?

3 A. Yes, it is an authentic document.

4 MR. KAY: Can tab 18.4 be made an exhibit?

5 JUDGE KWON: Any observation from Mr. Nice?

6 MR. NICE: Your Honour, in relation to all this material, I --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

8 MR. NICE: In relation to all this material, I've laid out

9 principal objections earlier and the Chamber has made its ruling about in

10 principle admissibility. I'm not going to repeat those.

11 Where there are no translations, I obviously make the objection

12 that I made earlier on this morning. And as to the documents that are

13 admitted, should of course the Chamber find itself in a position following

14 cross-examination to take the view that documents, once admitted, should

15 be -- should not have been admitted, it's always in a position to change

16 its mind.

17 So the best thing is that, save for those that aren't translated,

18 if we just allow them in on the basis that the Chamber has been allowing

19 them in.

20 JUDGE KWON: Of course the matter -- the weight is for the Chamber

21 to decide later. We'll admit 18.3 and 18.4.

22 MR. KAY: Tab 17 is still an outstanding --

23 JUDGE KWON: 17 and 18.1 would be marked for identification. Can

24 we deal with it? Let us move on.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Mr. Janicevic, in tab 18.5 we have a document which I'm also going

2 to ask you about to ask you whether it is the authentic document of your

3 secretariat and what it refers to.

4 A. Yes, this is an authentic by my secretariat and it relates to

5 persons who collected -- or rather, persons who joined up with the KLA and

6 who engaged in mobilisation, the mobilisation and recruitment of new

7 members for that same organisation.

8 Q. The document in tab 18.6 is another short statement. Is that an

9 authentic document of your secretariat as well?

10 MR. KAY: Can 18.5 be made an exhibit?

11 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll deal with it after 18 is over,

12 comprehensively. Thank you.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Very well. In 18.6, the person giving the statement, and it was

15 given on the 14th of April, 1999, he says that at the time there were over

16 500 KLA members in that particular village.

17 A. That's the information we had at the time, yes.

18 Q. Now we come to 18.7A. Is that once again a document of your

19 secretariat?

20 A. Yes, that is another secretariat document.

21 Q. Do we have stipulated here members of the KLA in the Slatina and

22 Ivaja area?

23 A. Yes. There were seven individuals here who were members of the

24 terrorist KLA organisation in Krivaja.

25 Q. The next one is 18A. Is that an authentic document?

1 A. Yes, this is an authentic document.

2 Q. It relates to the Kacanik municipality?

3 A. Yes. And it is about an attack -- or describes an attack on

4 members of the police station of Kacanik, or rather, the commander, and

5 who might have been in the group -- the perpetrators of the group, and

6 also it refers to the funeral of one of the attackers, Asim Hetem -- Asaj

7 Hetem.

8 Q. It is a statement with respect to a terrorist operation and the

9 perpetrators thereof; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you arrived at that information by interviewing the person who

12 gave this particular statement; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. It was within the frameworks of the investigation that was

15 conducted with respect to the terrorist attack; is that right?

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. And that is also an official document of your secretariat; is that

18 right?

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. Thank you. And now we can go on to tab 18.9, which is another

21 statement which should come from your secretariat. The date is the 6th of

22 April. Do you know about this statement?

23 A. Yes, I do. It is a document belonging to my secretariat, and it

24 refers to members of the terrorist KLA organisation who, without uniforms

25 -- were active without uniforms, bearing weapons, wearing civilian

1 clothes in the area.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Janicevic, this is described as a preliminary

3 interview. What is that?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An informative interview. Perhaps

5 the translation is wrong, because here it says -- it uses the usual term,

6 "informativni razgovor," the customary term for "interview." So perhaps

7 that's a matter of the way in which the document was translated.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I ask the interpreter whether that one begins

9 in exactly the same way as tab 18. The translation of tab 18 is: "On 13

10 April 1999 an interview was conducted ..." and this one starts --

11 JUDGE KWON: Could we put the 18.8 and 18.9 together, or the

12 interpreter could note that.

13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes that the same term,

14 "informativni razgovor," was used in both statements, which equals

15 "interview."

16 JUDGE KWON: I thank the interpreters for their effort. That has

17 been clarified. Thank you. Let's proceed.

18 Mr. Janicevic, when your inspectors take a witness statement from

19 a witness, do they produce the statements in Cyrillic letters or in

20 alphabet?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It depends on the typewriters they

22 had. Some had Cyrillic-script typewriters, others had Latin-script

23 typewriters. Jasovic mostly used the Latin script.

24 JUDGE KWON: So I don't think I saw witness Jasovic's statements

25 written in Cyrillic letters.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Jasovic's typewriter was a

2 Latin-script typewriter.

3 JUDGE KWON: So that's why I'm asking. Let's go on.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Very well. 18.10 is the next one. What does that tell us? And I

6 can see that it is a statement which was typed out in the Cyrillic script

7 on the 26th of March, 1999. Is that an authentic document of your

8 secretariat?

9 A. Yes, this is another authentic document by the Secretariat of the

10 Interior of Urosevac. It talks about an interview with Ljaci Naser from

11 the village of Pustenik in the Kacanik municipality. And he goes on to

12 say in his statement that in the village of -- in Kacanik municipality,

13 the 161st Brigade was formed, led by Camilj Iljazi, nicknamed Barli, and

14 another person. And they say that in certain hamlets or villages in that

15 municipality, a number of village staffs were established.

16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Janicevic, how can you say this is an authentic

17 document? I note Jasovic's and Sparavalo's signatures are missing here.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, since this has been

19 photocopied a number of times, maybe you can't see the signatures, but the

20 document is authentic 100 per cent. I'm quite sure of that.

21 JUDGE KWON: We can note the witness's signature, while we cannot

22 see the signatures of the inspectors.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. They're not visible here. But

24 probably it was signed. But as I say, because of the photocopying, you

25 can't see the signatures. But the document is 100 per cent authentic,

1 because we see here members of the KLA, persons who were members of the

2 KLA. For example, in line 6 or 7, his nickname was Era, and he is in

3 prison at the moment in Pristina for having committed the crime of murder,

4 and the International Court in Pristina, in March this year, tried the

5 case, and many others too from the Kacanik area.

6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Let's go on, Mr. Milosevic.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Is it of any importance, this fact that Mr. Kwon pointed out to

9 us, that is to say that, for the most part, or most of the statements so

10 far taken by Jasovic were typed out in the Latin script, whereas this one

11 was typed out in the Cyrillic script. Is that of any importance?

12 A. No, not really, because our service used both official scripts.

13 The Cyrillic and Latin were both official scripts, so it depended on the

14 typewriter that people had. And Jasovic probably was in the Kacanik area

15 when taking this statement and this kind of typewriter happened to be

16 there, so he had to type the statement out on that particular typewriter.

17 Q. All right. Fine. Now, what about the statement in tab 18.11? Is

18 that an original document of your Secretariat of the Interior, and what

19 does that one refer to?

20 A. This is another authentic document of the Secretariat of the

21 Interior of Urosevac, signed by Jasovic and Sparavalo, and it is about the

22 fact that the villagers of the village of Ivaja left their houses. And a

23 local, Halati [phoen], took to the forest. And it mentions an individual

24 whom he met in the forest with an automatic rifle, and that members of the

25 MUP carried such rifles, which meant that Alji Ljuta had seized the rifle

1 from one of the MUP members who had probably been killed in the fighting

2 against the terrorists.

3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janicevic. Now we move on to tab 18.12, where we

4 have another statement. Is that also an authentic document of your

5 secretariat?

6 A. Yes, this is an authentic document of the Urosevac SUP. The

7 statement was taken by Jasovic and Sparavalo, and it is about Rafiz --

8 yes. Members of the KLA. Azem Elezi, who mobilised some members of the

9 KLA. Sometimes that mobilisation was done forcibly, with threats issued,

10 under duress.

11 Q. And this person giving the statement was said to be -- was accused

12 of being a Serb spy; is that right?

13 A. Yes, that's right.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you know how this person came to be in the

15 police office?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He probably came on his own, of his

17 own accord, from what I can read in his statement.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Under tab 18.13, we see a statement related to the murder of the

21 commander of the police station of Kacanik, who was killed at the entrance

22 to the Gajre village, Kacanik municipality. Is this an authentic

23 statement and a document of your secretariat, dated the 20th March, 1999?

24 A. Yes, it is an authentic statement from the SUP of Urosevac. This

25 one was also taken by Jasovic and Sparavalo. It was given by Izahir

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1 Mulaki. He describes the way in which this murder was planned. They

2 called the commander on his cellphone and told him that Riza Kiki, a

3 person from the local security, had been kidnapped. The commander did not

4 suspect anything. He went out to check this information, he was ambushed

5 on the road and three members of the police who accompanied him were also

6 killed.

7 Q. Was this the gravest incident just before the NATO aggression in

8 your area?

9 A. Yes, it was the most serious one, not only in my area, but in the

10 area of Kacanik until then.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you know, Mr. Janicevic, what proportion of

12 these various people giving statements could speak Serb, the Serb

13 language?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 99 per cent of them. 99 per cent of

15 all persons who have given these statements speak Serbian. Over 80 per

16 cent of the overall ethnic Albanian population in the Urosevac area speaks

17 Serbian.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: And in what language would most of them actually

19 give the statement?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those who did not understand Serbian

21 would give their statements in Albanian. Those who understood Serbian

22 would give their statements in Serbian, on a case-to-case basis, whatever

23 the interviewee asked for.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, if you could tell us where this

1 evidence leads us. Suppose that they all -- the content of all these

2 documents, statements, are true. What does it prove? Does it have any

3 bearing in relation to the specific event referred to in the indictment or

4 as in Racak case? These names appear in the Schedule L of the Kosovo

5 indictment?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Kwon, Kacanik is part of what

7 you call the indictment, and this attests to the fact that -- sorry. The

8 indictment alleges that a certain number of civilians were killed by the

9 state security forces, whereas these documents speak about great presence

10 of the KLA in that area and very intensive terrorist activities, including

11 murders and attacks on policemen, soldiers, civilians. This absolutely

12 refutes all the claims about the terrorising of civilians in the area of

13 Kacanik municipality, as you have already seen. The witness we have

14 before us, former chief of Urosevac SUP, verified the information that he

15 would receive from outside. He did not rely on each piece of information

16 he would receive. He would sometimes seek additional confirmation even

17 from military authorities.

18 JUDGE KWON: My question was specifically whether any of these

19 alleged KLA members appear as victims in the indictment. Schedule L deals

20 with the victims in relation to Kacanik municipality. So you're not

21 alluding to that.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I did not compare that schedule with

23 all these statements, because my time is very limited, but I will do so.

24 In fact, I will ask one of my associates to cross-check to see if any of

25 the persons mentioned in the statements are on the list. My point is, and

1 my assertion is, that neither the police nor the army committed any

2 crimes, in that municipality or in any other.

3 JUDGE KWON: Then we can deal with these documents much faster.

4 Let's go on.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I would like to draw your

6 attention to the claims made by a number of witnesses who testified here,

7 very authentically, who spoke about the number of Albanians killed in this

8 period by the KLA. That is an aspect that is given short shrift here from

9 the word go. More of them were killed from June 1999 onwards than in the

10 preceding period, many more, in the period when there were no police or

11 army left.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Janicevic, what do we see under tab 18.14? I see it's an

14 official note, but I won't go on, in order to avoid leading you.

15 A. This is an official note drawn up by authorised officer Boban

16 Krstic. It mentions persons who are members of the KLA who were active in

17 Bob and Ivaja villages. Reference is made to their names. Rahim Elezi,

18 Adami Zekerija, the son of a certain Imer Gasi, et cetera. This is also

19 an authentic document of the secretariat in Urosevac.

20 Q. Thank you. What is the official note under 18.15 about? Is it an

21 authentic document of your secretariat? In fact, it says here "Republic

22 of Serbia, Ministry of the Interior, Secretariat in Urosevac, Kacanik

23 Police Station."

24 A. This official note was submitted by the deputy commander of the

25 Kacanik Police Station, to the effect that a certain Sulejman Loki from

1 Kotlina village came of his own accord to this police station, and he

2 stated that a group of four armed men in camouflage uniforms and hoods on

3 their heads, with KLA insignia, came and took his hunting rifle. That

4 means that in the period before the war, the terrorists used to disarm all

5 the people, Albanian people, who possessed weapons legally. We had

6 hundreds of such cases.

7 Q. This is also authentic as a document?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you say the same about tab 18.16? I mean about authenticity.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The authorised officers are different in this statement.

12 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues]... questions and

13 answers, leading or otherwise, about authentic. It may be that we should

14 know what is being meant by "authentic." Does it mean that the witness

15 produced them himself or is positively affirming that they are documents

16 which come from a certain source, or does it mean something else? I'm not

17 sure what it means. I'm not particularly being difficult, I just want to

18 know what is being meant.

19 JUDGE KWON: I take it that the witness brought with him these

20 documents. Am I right in so understanding?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

22 JUDGE KWON: And it was in the official archive in Urosevac police

23 -- SUP Urosevac?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was in the official archive

25 of Urosevac SUP and the area of the police station itself.

1 JUDGE KWON: You saw these documents contemporaneously at that

2 time?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in 1998 and 1999.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE KWON: Let's go on, Mr. Milosevic.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Kwon just raised an issue concerning these documents that you

8 brought and that are being kept in the archives. Were all the documents

9 preserved or were a part of them destroyed, lost?

10 A. Only a small portion of all the documents were preserved. The

11 greatest part of them were destroyed or they were left behind in the area,

12 in the localities of the particular police stations or the Urosevac SUP.

13 After the withdrawal of the police, following the agreement, our police

14 force handed over their building to KFOR, and we don't know what happened

15 to the documentation that was left behind. Some documents were destroyed

16 in April 1999, when the SUP building was bombed. The entire building

17 burnt down.

18 Q. When the MUP building in the centre of Pristina was destroyed by

19 the bomb, were other buildings around it also damaged or destroyed?

20 A. Many other buildings were destroyed. The municipality building,

21 part of the provincial Assembly building was destroyed, a great number of

22 enterprises and factories, the Orthodox Christian cemetery, et cetera.

23 Q. Did you also mention the post office?

24 A. The post office building was among the first to be bombed in the

25 area.

1 Q. I know you said that, but it's missing from the transcript. I

2 think you should speak more distinctly, and speak up, generally. If the

3 interpreters don't hear you, it won't be on the record.

4 A. I don't want to speak too loud, not to offend the Judges.

5 Q. I heard you.

6 JUDGE KWON: If it's a convenient time. I note the time. We'll

7 adjourn for 20 minutes.

8 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.

10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Janicevic, in document 18.6, there is an official note. What

13 does it refer to? Is it another document of your secretariat? What is it

14 about? What are the events concerned? Let me draw your attention to the

15 effect that there is a link between 18.16 and 18.17.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It seems to be 18.16.

17 There is no microphone for the witness.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The official note was drawn up on

19 the premises of SUP Urosevac regarding the kidnapping of Agim Idrizi from

20 Laniste village, Kacanik municipality. That person was kidnapped by six

21 members of the terrorist KLA who came to his house by night, dragged him

22 out of his bed, handcuffed him, and took him away, telling his mother that

23 they were taking him to fight against the Serbs.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. When did this happen?

1 A. On the 5th of March, I believe. Yes. On the 5th of March, at

2 9.00 p.m., in the area of Kacanik.

3 Q. In this official note in 18.16, it says the person is still

4 suffering from depression, is unable to remember everyone he had seen, and

5 then there is an additional statement, a supplementary statement, under

6 18.17.

7 A. After the kidnapping, that person was taken to the KLA prison in

8 Ivaja village that was attached to the headquarters of the 161st Brigade.

9 After the anti-terrorist operation of the 8th of March, 1999, some of the

10 persons who had been kidnapped were freed. However, this person, together

11 with some others, were taken, transferred to an auxiliary prison. They

12 were taken from village to village, ending up in Raka. And then a vehicle

13 came to pick them up from Raka and take them to the central KLA prison in

14 Lapusnik. I'm not reading from this, I am recollecting that on the road

15 to Llapusnik, he and four other persons, somewhere around Kosin village,

16 because that's the only place where there is a crossing over the river, he

17 fell out from that jeep, together with another person, Nezir -- I can't

18 remember exactly.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there a particular relevance to all this,

20 Mr. Milosevic? It just seems to me to be wasting time.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us establish just one more

22 thing, Mr. Bonomy. It is relevant that the KLA terrorised Albanians at

23 the time, very intensively so.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Look at page 2, towards the bottom. It says: "On the same night,

1 half an hour later, they took us to Bicevac village, where I saw 50

2 members of the KLA and recognised Dzevat Belja carrying a weapon and a

3 certain Hajrulah, nicknamed Butcher." Then these people were taken to the

4 headquarters. All this happened in mid-March 1999.

5 Then he speaks about the torture they were subjected to. On the

6 next page, he says -- they ask him whether he was from the State Security

7 Service. "I answered that I sold firewood. And after that, he put a hook

8 through my nostril and started beating me. And then again caught me with

9 a hook on my lower lip."

10 There is reference to all sorts of terror imposed on Albanians in

11 the area from which this witness comes from.

12 Let us not waste any more time. What do we see under tab 18.18?

13 Reference is made to some important person, a commander or something.

14 A. It is about Rufki Suma, who was the self-styled commander of the

15 KLA staff for the territory of Pustenik, that is, the local community of

16 Djeneral Jankovic, Kacanik municipality.

17 Q. Did you know anything about that KLA commander?

18 A. Rufki Suma was the commander of the KLA staff for Pustenik

19 village. Yes, yes. We had prior information about him, that he was

20 engaged in hostile -- organised hostile activities and had made public

21 appearances. In 1998, when the State Security Service identified the

22 first illegal staff of the KLA for Kacanik, Rufki Suma was in the group

23 that was arrested, but under circumstances that had not been clarified

24 until the end, he managed to escape. Eventually, criminal proceedings

25 were instigated against him.

1 Q. Under 18.19, do we see another statement? Is it authentic? It

2 was given by Baskim Celaki.

3 A. Yes, it is an authentic document. Baskim Celaki was a member --

4 in fact, he was suspected to be a KLA member, but it was never proved.

5 Q. All right. In 18.20, we see another reference to Rufki Suma. It

6 says: "This staff was formed by Rufki Suma, from Dimce village, Kacanik

7 municipality."

8 A. Yes. I've already mentioned this.

9 Q. To what extent was the KLA present in Kacanik municipality?

10 A. Almost until the end of 1998. The KLA was present in Kacanik

11 municipality without being active, without taking any actions against the

12 army, the police, or civilians. The intensity of their activity started

13 to grow in the beginning of January. That happened with the first

14 kidnappings of Albanians who did not support KLA policies and did not

15 support their cause.

16 Q. Very well. What about these documents in 18.21, 22, and 23?

17 These are statements by Busi Refik, Brava Sehat and Busi Zajedin. They

18 all date back to March 1999 and relate to KLA activities. Are they among

19 the authentic documents from your secretariat?

20 A. They are all original and authentic documents of Urosevac SUP.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender these

22 collectively, Mr. Kwon. You said you would deal with that after we finish

23 with tab 18. It is my request that these documents be exhibited.

24 JUDGE KWON: All tabs will be admitted except for tab 18.13 and

25 18.19, which were not translated, and will be marked for identification,

1 pending translation. And I note tab 17 was translated and handed over to

2 the Chamber, so that can be admitted as well.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Kwon.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Janicevic, as briefly as possible, what do you know about

7 163rd Brigade? You mentioned 161st and 162nd, with an emphasis on the

8 161st. What do you know about 163rd?

9 A. That brigade of the KLA was formed only on paper. A commander was

10 appointed. That was Ahmed Kaciko [phoen], who got killed in fights with

11 the state security forces -- security forces, rather. And for a long time

12 after that, until just before the war, they did not have the commander,

13 and then they got a commander who used to be a deputy commander of the

14 police station in Strpce.

15 Q. When did the first serious attacks on the area -- in the area of

16 Urosevac SUP happen?

17 A. In 1987 [as interpreted], in November, when David Dugoli was

18 killed, or rather --

19 Q. Who?

20 A. Dalip Dugoli, an Albanian.

21 Q. What was the background of his liquidation?

22 A. The background was that he did not want to join this terrorist

23 organisation, he did not pay the so-called tax to them. He was an active

24 socio-political worker, or official, and he used to say that the

25 terrorists, those people who went to the woods, are the worst kind of

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13 English transcripts.

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1 criminals. And he said that in every gathering with his friends, and even

2 before his enemies.

3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, are we hearing the events in 1987?

4 Can we move on to 1999?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't ask a question linked to

6 1987. I asked when the first more serious terrorist attacks took place in

7 the Urosevac SUP area, and the witness's answer was that was the killing

8 of the Albanian at the end of 1997. Now, whether that was intensified in

9 1998 and 1999 --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: There's a mistake in the transcript. There's a

11 mistake in the transcript that's causing the problem.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. And what happened, then, in 1998 and 1999?

14 A. In 1998, the attacks became more intense and there were

15 preparations for more serious terrorist attacks at the beginning of

16 January, when an explosive was used to attack a house in which a member of

17 the State Security Service, Rajko Dodik [phoen], was living, belonging to

18 the Urosevac SUP. He was a lodger there. That was in January. Then in

19 April, another explosive device was launched against another policeman,

20 traffic policeman, Miljam Veljkovic [phoen] his name was, and the attack

21 became intensified on the road running from Stimlje to Suva Reka, in the

22 Fermilje [phoen] gorge, in mid-1998. And from that time, in fact, the

23 terrorist acts and provocation in the area became constant.

24 Q. Now, what do the documents in tabs 19 and 20 relate to? Perhaps

25 we can take a look at them together. They date to the second half of

1 1998, as far as I can see, the statements.

2 A. These are the minutes or records taken from individuals who were

3 interviewed by the State Security Service for having prepared terrorist

4 attacks, and they are individuals who organised the first terrorist staff

5 in the Urosevac area.

6 Q. Both these two statements, the one in tab 20 and the one in tab

7 19, do they both relate to the same activity, to the same action?

8 A. Yes. Both relate to the same thing.

9 Q. Of course, the people giving the statement are different.

10 Different people gave the statement.

11 A. Yes, that's right. But otherwise, the event was the same, the

12 subject matter was the same.

13 MR. NICE: Your Honour, a new problem with these statements, I

14 suppose, these documents, at any event. Before I come to that point, I

15 ought to just make one point that I've been meaning to make earlier. I

16 haven't taken objection to the, in principle, to the production of the

17 earlier documents coming from Jasovic and Sparavalo because they were

18 admitted not only through Jasovic but also at the hands of one or two

19 other witnesses. But of course, it is, on topics of weight, a matter of

20 concern that these weren't dealt with when Jasovic was here himself. I

21 just put that on the record.

22 So far as 19 and 20 are concerned, 19 has not only the problem of

23 being untranslated but of being significantly, I think, illegible. One

24 does one's best. I think it's going to be tricky to read that text, and I

25 don't know what the translators will make of it. From my point of view,

1 it's also unfortunate that the names of the officials taking the statement

2 are not at present identified, or maybe they are, but I'd be very much

3 assisted by knowing who it was who did take them, because at the moment

4 the names are, I think, illegible.

5 JUDGE KWON: Let us ask the witness whether he can identify the

6 authorised official who took these statements, both of them, 19 and tab 20

7 as well.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In tab 19, one of the signatories

9 was the official Srdjan Rosic, authorised official, the second one. I

10 can't make out the first.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. And who is Srdjan Rosic?

13 A. Srdjan Rosic at that time was the operative worker of the state

14 security department of Urosevac.

15 Q. Is that a document of your secretariat?

16 A. No. This is the State Security Service document which was sent to

17 us to keep us informed.

18 Q. Yes, but in your area?

19 A. Yes, Urosevac.

20 Q. All right. And what about tab 20? Tab 20 I can see has been

21 translated. Tab 20. Let's just have a look. I think that the signatory

22 was Dragan Djordjevic. Once again, a worker of the State Security Service

23 department.

24 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. Milosevic. Judge Bonomy has a

25 question.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: What action was taken against these people once

2 they had confessed?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since they confessed, a criminal

4 report was raised against them and there were orders to arrest them from

5 the investigating judge.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Then what would happen to them?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then they would go to prison.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: But do you not know what actually happened? Was

9 there a trial?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that. By handing him

11 over to the investigating judge, along with the papers, that's where the

12 Ministry of the Interior's work ceases. We handed everything over. If

13 the person was sentenced, then we would receive a judgement with the

14 sentence back to us and it would be recorded in the SUP archives.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: And after June 1999, were you in a position to

16 receive such reports back?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After June 1999, for Kosovo and

18 Metohija, there were no court cases at all, as far as I know, so we did

19 not receive any reports of that kind back. All the cases that were tried

20 in Kosovo and Metohija in the courts there remained in the courts, and the

21 cases that were with the prosecutor remained there, the pending cases in

22 the secretariats remained in the secretariats of the interior, the

23 analysis department, and it was the position that no documents should be

24 taken away and out of the buildings in which the work was done.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: When was it you had to move from your office in

1 Urosevac?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 17th of April I moved to

3 Pristina. The paper was dated the 15th, but I handed over my duties and

4 left Pristina on that date. I didn't have an office there because the SUP

5 building was bombed and completely destroyed.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: And does that mean that, by that time, no report

7 had come back of any action taken in court against either of these two

8 persons who gave the statements?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, while a court case is pending,

10 it is not -- they're not duty-bound to inform the Ministry of the Interior

11 what is happening to the accused and whether they did stand accused. I

12 repeat: It was our task and job to see that persons who were dealt with

13 by the crime technicians and criminal reports filed and arrested, and then

14 all the papers were given -- handed up to the investigating judge, who

15 then decided whether the individuals were arrested and remanded in

16 custody. There would be a deadline 30 days, 60 days, depending on the

17 crime committed.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. It would be very helpful to me to have

19 this sort of thing followed through so that I get a complete picture of

20 what actually happened to people who made such confessions of involvement

21 with the KLA.

22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Janicevic, I take it that all you know in

23 relation to this document is that this statement was sent to you from

24 state security, so you do not know the situation how this witness was

25 taken to the custody of state security and what happened to this witness

1 later on.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know what happened because there

3 was a uniform system for the criminal reports filed and written out in the

4 secretariats and then sent to the investigating judges, courts, and

5 prosecutors. They go via the public security system, which is a joint

6 service, a communal service.

7 JUDGE KWON: That is just speculation as well. But did you bring

8 these documents with you in person as well?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

10 JUDGE KWON: So that is a copy which is sent from the state

11 security at the time?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Janicevic, you said a moment ago that the criminal report

16 itself is filed by the Secretariat of the Interior.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Which is your organ; right?

19 A. The Secretariat of the Interior sends on the criminal report to

20 the competent investigating judge of the prosecuting office.

21 Q. So that document, formally speaking and officially speaking, must

22 pass through your organs?

23 A. Yes, it must pass through my organs.

24 Q. Thank you. This related to the intensification of terrorist

25 attacks in 1998. Tell us, please: Terrorist attacks of this kind, did

1 they continue in 1998?

2 A. Yes, they did. In the second half of 1998, there was not a day

3 that went by without terrorist action and provocation, especially in the

4 Stimlje area.

5 Q. And what was the situation like -- what was the situation like

6 after the establishment of the Verification Mission, at the end of 1998?

7 A. In the middle of 1998, a number of anti-terrorist actions were

8 launched in which the combat capabilities of the KLA were eliminated

9 throughout Kosovo mostly. Those forces were routed. Some of them were

10 dispelled, dispersed, some were arrested. What remained took to the hills

11 and mountains, and I'm talking about the area covered by my secretariat

12 there. They went to villages which were almost inaccessible, such as

13 Devetak, Topilo, and the upper part of the village of Jezerce.

14 After the establishment of the Verification Mission, and when it

15 started working, that is to say, sometime up until the end of October

16 1998, there was a repeated takeover of positions where the terrorists had

17 been previously, up until the end of the anti-terrorist operations. Those

18 positions were taken up again, as were the positions held by the army of

19 Yugoslavia and the police up until then. Because, pursuant to no

20 agreement with the OSCE, we had to withdraw and to retain only a portion

21 of those defence positions in the area. For example, for the area of

22 Stimlje, Crnoljevska gorge, there were six observation posts and nothing

23 more, except for the regular police stations, for instance. That's as far

24 as the police is concerned. The army had one Combat Group on Canovica

25 hill, right near Stimlje, and two separate combat groups with just a few

1 soldiers manning them, and they were protection for the unit and

2 protection for the settlement of Stimlje itself. One -- on a curve

3 between Belinac and Racak on the road there, that was one, and another

4 Kostanje hill behind Stimlje.

5 Q. You said that when the verifiers arrived, the Verification Mission

6 arrived, the attacks became intensified. What were the targets of those

7 attacks in particular?

8 A. The attacks were targeted at the police forces, the army,

9 citizens, Serbs, Albanians who were not -- or did not want to collaborate

10 with the terrorist organisation and did not wish to offer their

11 assistance. The attacks were also geared against the lines of

12 communication, the roads running to Prizren, or rather, the road from

13 Stimlje to Suva Reka, for instance. So those attacks were such that it

14 was a hit-and-run job from an ambush. They would shoot, kill, and flee

15 from an ambush.

16 After mid-1998, up until the 10th of January, 1999, in that same

17 area, that is to say, the Stimlje area alone, 25 soldiers and civilians

18 were killed; and seriously wounded, 25 soldiers and policemen, or rather,

19 soldiers, policemen, and civilians, which makes a total of about 50

20 casualties.

21 Q. Take a look at tab 21 now, please, which is a dispatch. It has

22 its number. Just tell us the date of it and what it says in the upper

23 left-hand corner.

24 A. The dispatch or telegram is dated the 28th of February, 1998 [as

25 interpreted]. It is sent by the SUP of Urosevac. I signed it, as head of

1 the secretariat. And I'm informing the MUP of the Republic of Serbia and

2 the staff of the MUP in Pristina that on the 22nd of February, 1999, there

3 was an attack on a patrol which was checking out a piece of information

4 whereby a person was reported kidnapped. And during that attack, the

5 commander of the police station was killed, Captain Bogoljub Staletovic

6 was his name, and some people were wounded: Jankovic Slobodan,

7 Milosavljevic Djordje, and Sladjan Jovanovic. They were wounded on the

8 occasion. In a later attack, in order to pull out the killed commander,

9 Radi and Djuric Zoran, from another part of the unit, was wounded.

10 Q. Where did this actually happen, did you say?

11 JUDGE KWON: Just for the record, the transcript refers to this

12 document as dated 28th of February, 1998. But instead it should be 1999.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1999, yes.

14 JUDGE KWON: Please answer the question.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This occurred at the entrance to the

16 village of Gajavica, which is five or six kilometres away from Kacanik,

17 along a stream. On the road, across the stream.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Which of these formations in response to the previous questions

20 were in the area? You mentioned it was the 102nd --

21 A. 162nd Brigade of the KLA.

22 Q. They were members, those members contained in these documents that

23 we went through in tab 18; is that right?

24 A. Yes, that's right.

25 Q. So this is your dispatch, the MUP dispatch. Now take a look at

1 tab 22, please. This is also one of your documents, is it not?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. Is that your signature?

4 A. Yes, it is. My document and my signature.

5 Q. And to whom is the document addressed? They're all abbreviations,

6 so what are they?

7 A. The Ministry of the Interior headquarters, the department of

8 administration for the police operative centre, the staff of MUP for

9 Kosovo and Metohija in Pristina. And with this document, I inform the

10 superior command that all measures have been taken to seek out the

11 perpetrators of a terrorist attack on a group of policemen which had gone

12 out to check out the accuracy of the information where Captain Bogoljub

13 was killed and all the measures that were taken, and in which direction

14 that terrorist group had pulled out. I should just like to mention that

15 one of the terrorists in the clash itself, that is to say, the clash with

16 the commander of the police station who was killed on the occasion, was

17 also killed.

18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janicevic. Now take a look at tab 23A. I have 23A

19 first, followed by 23. I don't know whether that is the case in the rest

20 of the binder as well.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So 23A is first. And as far as I can see -- yes, indeed, 23A is

23 the English translation and 23 is the document itself. And I can see your

24 signature there too. Is that indeed your signature?

25 A. On tab 23?

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13 English transcripts.

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1 Q. Yes, that's right.

2 A. Yes, that is my signature on tab 23, and it describes the event

3 itself. The dispatch is sent to the administration, the crime police,

4 police administration, the operation centre, and the staff MUP of

5 Pristina. And it describes what I talked about earlier on; the day,

6 month, and time of the event, what actually occurred, when they opened

7 fire on the patrol and why the patrol had gone to the village in the first

8 place. Gajre is the name of the village, and which the casualties were,

9 who was wounded.

10 Q. And what is in the document that is numbered tab 24? To whom is

11 that addressed? Those same addressees, is it? And who sent this

12 document?

13 A. This document was sent to the same addressees on the 8th of March,

14 or rather, the 9th of March, 1999. And it is a dispatch informing the

15 authorities, the crime police administration, the MUP staff for the

16 province, about the results of the investigation and search for the

17 terrorists. And it was signed by the head of the department instead of

18 me. The head of the crime prevention department, Debeljkovic Branislav.

19 It says, "By authority -- by authorisation." Yes, that's right, because I

20 was away.

21 Q. So you say that on the 8th of March --

22 A. Yes: "8th of March at 0530 hours, members of the Urosevac SUP and

23 Gnjilane SUP, together with members of the Yugoslav army, launched an

24 operation to clear the villages of Straza, Ivaja, Gajre and Kotlina,

25 Kacanik municipality, of the terrorist gangs which have carried out

1 terrorist operations in this area with attacks on members -- terrorist

2 operations in this area with attacks on members of the police and VJ and

3 the kidnapping of rural citizens from the Siptar ethnic minority.

4 "During the course of the operation, members of the Urosevac and

5 Gnjilane SUP PJPs encountered strong armed resistance from the terrorist

6 gangs in the sectors of all the villages listed above, and two members of

7 the police were injured, as we informed you in our dispatch number 1510 of

8 the 8th of March, 1999. Three members of the VJ were also injured when

9 their reconnaissance vehicle drove over an anti-tank mine in Dasevcova

10 Mahala in Kotlina village sector. The army and police suffered no

11 casualties."

12 Q. In the village of Ivaja, what happened there? What do you say

13 happened there?

14 A. "The members of the army smashed a large terrorist group and

15 destroyed the staff of their so-called 162nd Brigade. In the process, a

16 large amount of mines or MTS -" or materiel technical devices - "were

17 seized."

18 Let me just mention that over 400 sleeping-bags were seized on the

19 occasion, for example, from the warehouse belonging to the staff. And

20 quite a lot of infantry weapons, hand-held rocket launchers, ammunitions,

21 two all terrain vehicles, and other military equipment was captured.

22 "A large amount of medical material was also seized, as well as

23 documentation indicating the organisation of the terrorist groups and

24 their operations. That was seized too. The operation to clear the

25 terrorist groups in these villages was completed at 1730 hours on the 9th

1 of March, 1999, when the PJP members returned to base.

2 "Over the course of the operation, about 150 people were brought

3 into custody. They were identified as people suspected of involvement in

4 acts of terrorism. 22 people were detained for further processing and the

5 rest were released. The results of the tests for the presence of

6 gunpowder particles are expected."

7 Q. So that is your report. That is already March 1999?

8 A. Yes, the 9th of March.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Kwon, could this please be

10 admitted into evidence?

11 JUDGE KWON: From 21 to 24 will be admitted. But 21 is not

12 translated; we'll mark it for identification.

13 MR. KAY: Have we done 19 and 20?

14 JUDGE KWON: If we follow the Chamber's precedent in relation to

15 Jasovic binder -- I'll have to consult with Judge Bonomy.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE KWON: We'll admit them as well, with 19 being marked for

18 identification, pending translation.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just say something else in

20 relation to this report?

21 JUDGE KWON: Very briefly, please.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says here that 22 persons were

23 kept for further proceedings. They were found in the area of terrorist

24 and anti-terrorist actions. They were interviewed and those are the

25 statements that you are seeking in terms of how these persons came to give

1 the statements. These 22 persons were released, and three days later, the

2 MUP of the Republic of Serbia sent us a report that the paraffin glove

3 tests were positive, and we never looked for them again. That is what I

4 wish to add.

5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Janicevic, could you please look at document 25 now. This is

8 a statement which was compiled where?

9 A. At the Kacanik MUP, or the police station of Kacanik, on the 12th

10 of March, 1999.

11 Q. What does this statement pertain to? What does it indicate?

12 Please tell us as briefly as possible.

13 A. This statement indicates events that occurred on the 28th of

14 February, before the commander of the police station in Kacanik, Captain

15 Staletovic, was killed.

16 Q. When did that happen?

17 A. On the 28th. So the person who was interviewed. Before the

18 commander of the station managed to reach the stream where he was killed,

19 and he wanted to check the information that Riza Kiki had been kidnapped,

20 he came across a group of terrorists who were expecting the police to come

21 because, before that, they telephoned the commander of the police station,

22 stating that Riza Kiki had been kidnapped by terrorists. The person

23 describes what he was told, to leave the vehicle, to flee, and so on, and

24 everything else that happened.

25 Q. I'm sorry. Did you want to add something else?

1 A. Yes. Just go ahead, ask your question.

2 Q. Is there a reference here to 400 members of the KLA in the village

3 of Ivaja?

4 A. Yes. Yes. We knew about them from earlier on. That's in the

5 second part of the statement.

6 Q. That is also a document of your Secretariat of the Interior?

7 A. Yes. That is also a document of the Secretariat of the Interior.

8 This was done in Kacanik, not at the Urosevac SUP, by Inspectors Jasovic

9 and Sparavalo.

10 Q. Now let's move on to document number 26, please.

11 A. In this document, tab 26, it is important to say that in the area

12 of Pustenik, municipality of Kacanik, there were about 200 persons who, on

13 orders by a person who later became local commander, had to leave their

14 homes and go into the woods in order to portray this as a humanitarian

15 catastrophe to the international monitors. The rest doesn't really -- or

16 rather, the terrorist group that was established in this village received

17 weapons from the staff in Ivaja.

18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Janicevic, do you recognise the authorised

19 officials who took this statement?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot recognise the signatures,

21 but I'm sure that they are employees of the State Security Service, as

22 this was submitted to us. But that can easily be checked and verified.

23 JUDGE KWON: How? How can you verify that?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A copy of this statement has to

25 exist at the DB of Urosevac headquarters that is now in Leskovac. So it

1 will be very easy for us to check.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Kwon, will you allow the witness

3 now, over the weekend, to check this with the headquarters of the

4 Secretariat of the Interior, or rather, the organ in charge, so that he

5 could give you this particular information, namely, the names of the

6 authorised officials who took this statement and whose signatures are here

7 on this sheet of paper.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Let's do so. Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. This statement contains rather important information. Could you

13 please be so kind as to look at page number 2, Mr. Janicevic, where there

14 is reference to the verifiers. Can you read that? Can you read what it

15 says here? Could you start from the second paragraph from the bottom, but

16 the middle. The sentence starts with: "The team of verifiers ..."

17 A. "The team of verifiers, in addition to Acif was joined by Ljaci,

18 who, at the suggestion of the interpreter of the OSCE, forced the women

19 and children to cry in order to pretend that the situation in the

20 settlement was very difficult and that it constituted a humanitarian

21 catastrophe. In addition to that, I personally saw in Kotlina,

22 municipality of Kacanik, on one occasion, a group of verifiers of the OSCE

23 who came in their own vehicles. According to what Acif said, the

24 verifiers, in addition to different kinds of supplies, brought in

25 camouflage weapons, as well as a certain number of -- a certain quantity

1 of medical equipment. In that way, we received --"

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please stop before the

3 interpreter finishes translating the passage.

4 JUDGE KWON: The interpreters have difficulty following you.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do I have to read it again?

6 JUDGE KWON: Would you start again after --

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. And a bit louder, please. Even I cannot hear you.

9 JUDGE KWON: After the medical equipment. "In that way ..."

10 Start from there.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "In that way, as for our settlement

12 -" he's referring to Kotlina, actually - "supplies were received, that is

13 to say, food and medicine, and it was Saban Beca and Ajet Ljaci who

14 brought in this food and this medicine on horseback. The village of Ivaja

15 was the main centre for the distribution of food and other supplies

16 received from international humanitarian organisations. According to the

17 comments made by Acif Ljaci and other villagers from Mahala Ljac who

18 visited the village of Ivaja every day, the -- Ivaja, municipality of

19 Kacanik, I found out that on the 28th of February, 1999, in the mentioned

20 village, the Main Staff of the KLA for the area of Kacanik was located in

21 the mentioned village."

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Just a moment, please. I did not hear you read out the word

24 "from," "From the 28th of February ..."

25 A. "From the 28th of February, the Main Staff of the KLA for the area

1 of Kacanik was located in that village. The staff was located in the

2 house of Ibrahim Ljute, whose son, Redzep Ljute, was a member of the

3 Socialist Party of Serbia in Kacanik and a member of the local security in

4 the village. And he had previously been kidnapped by members of the KLA.

5 The commander of the Main Staff is Camilj Iljazi and in the village of

6 Ivaja at that time, there were about 300 members of the KLA. Their number

7 was on the rise because, allegedly, new members of the KLA were coming in,

8 persons who were temporarily employed abroad. So the number was supposed

9 to go up by an additional 3.000."

10 "In addition to that, the hospital was in the house of --"

11 Q. I think that will do. Please just have a look at the one-but-last

12 paragraph.

13 A. Let me finish.

14 Q. Where were the sub-staffs of the KLA established?

15 A. Let me just finish saying that the hospital was in the house of

16 Ramusa Kodraljiu, whose son had also been kidnapped, and that was in the

17 local staff of the KLA.

18 Now, we're looking at the one-but-last paragraph? I can also say

19 that, in addition to the Main Staff in the village of Ivaja, members of

20 the KLA established sub-staffs of the KLA in the villages of Gornja and

21 Donja Kotlina, as well as Brav and Bus Mahala, that belonged to the

22 village of Pustenik, municipality of Kacanik.

23 Q. And who was commander in Kotlina?

24 A. In the village of Gornja Kotlina, the commander was Seljman Kuci,

25 father's name Mina, and the sub-staff is in the elementary school. The

1 commander of the sub-staff of the KLA of the village of Donja Kotlina is

2 Miljaim Ljoku.

3 Q. All right. We've heard that name several times by now. There is

4 additional information here that has to do with weapons that were brought

5 in and also specific names of KLA members are referred to.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. As well as the names of persons who were abducted in the area.

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janicevic. Since Mr. Kwon allowed this, could you

10 please check the names of the persons who took this statement. Because we

11 have three illegible signatures here. So could you please do that?

12 A. Could I please just take the last page of this statement,

13 Mr. President? Can I just take the last page where the signatures are?

14 Q. I think that should not be a problem.

15 A. [In English] Thank you.

16 MR. NICE: Your Honours, I see we may be reaching the time when

17 the Court may decide to rise.

18 JUDGE KWON: We can sit a bit further than the usual time.

19 MR. NICE: Can I make my very small administrative point now, and

20 it relates to this witness and also forthcoming witnesses.

21 In reverse order, we have no notice of which witnesses are coming

22 next after this witness. We've been preparing for one particular witness,

23 of course, on and off now since the spring, Bulatovic, but I don't think

24 he's coming. Maybe never, I'm not sure. But we would be assisted by

25 knowing who is coming next.

1 As to this witness, the material he's producing has been available

2 in part but entirely unsorted from before the summer break. And when it's

3 unsorted, it's pretty well valueless. It needs to be in some form of

4 order before we can work on it. In any event, we didn't have resources to

5 work on it, frankly, from the time it arrived. So that it comes in now

6 effectively fresh just right now. It constitutes some 90 tabs, many, if

7 not most of which, are reports of one kind. We aren't in a position to

8 obviously respond to them immediately. I hope very much that it won't be

9 necessary to apply for any adjournment to deal with this evidence. And

10 I'll do what I can. But there's a great deal of detail here, and if it's

11 relevant, I'm going to have to do something to state a position on it.

12 I mention all that so that the accused and those assisting him may

13 have in mind the possibility that when this witness finishes his evidence,

14 which I suppose in chief will be sometime next week, for one reason or

15 another it might be necessary to have another witness available then.

16 I'll obviously do everything I can to deal with him as soon as his

17 evidence finishes.

18 JUDGE KWON: That's just notice.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Kay.

21 MR. KAY: Admissibility of tab 25 we need to resolve. Tab 26 is

22 obviously pending.

23 JUDGE KWON: Those are not translated. Yes. So we'll mark them

24 for identification. Thank you. The Chamber does not have the

25 translations.

1 Mr. Milosevic, are you in the position to tell us who the next

2 witnesses are after Mr. Janicevic? I think you are under an obligation,

3 pursuant to our order, that you have to produce by the next week's

4 statements -- schedule of next week's witnesses.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I assume that that obligation has

6 been met, that the next witnesses are already on their way. Mr.

7 Ognjanovic asked for them to be called. The next witnesses are Josan and

8 Vukovic.

9 As for the list of witnesses -- or rather, before that, I would

10 just like to make a remark, and then I will have to ask for closed session

11 for 30 seconds only, in terms of the list of witnesses.

12 Mr. Nice said that perhaps he will ask for a delay of the

13 cross-examination of this witness. Please bear in mind that I never asked

14 for the delay of any cross-examination, and my modest resources cannot

15 even be compared to Mr. Nice's resources, as well as all the other

16 services that are there to assist him. This is already become regular

17 practice, that he asks for a delay between the examination-in-chief and

18 the cross-examination. I don't think that that is customary, not even in

19 your systems that you keep referring to time and again. And I think that

20 it is Mr. Nice's duty to carry out the cross-examination. What would that

21 be like if I asked for that kind of delay for each and every witness? And

22 I would usually get a million pages to read overnight, and you never

23 allowed me any delay, let alone in cross-examination. I believe that this

24 is an approach of extreme discrimination. And now, in relation to what he

25 said about the witness list --

1 JUDGE KWON: It is not a correct description when you said we

2 never allowed a delay. The Chamber was minded to allow at any time any

3 delay when requested.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: I would also like to know who are all the witnesses

5 whose cross-examination by the Prosecution has been postponed. You say

6 it's a regular practice. Apart from Jasovic, who else?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, look at Delic, for instance.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Delic came back because you hadn't completed your

9 re-examination. And the further work is --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Milosevic please speak into the

11 microphone, thank you.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: The further delay is due to the way in which the

13 material is produced. You should also bear in mind that all that has

14 happened so far is Mr. Nice has given an indication of an application he

15 might make, and if it's based on resources, the way in which he addressed

16 it at the moment, he would certainly get no sympathy from me.

17 MR. NICE: I'm sorry about that. But just also to tidy something

18 up. Delic's cross-examination was postponed at the order of the Court

19 because of the protective measures issue. Nothing to do with the

20 Prosecution.

21 And I hear what Your Honour says about resources. My decision has

22 to be whether I take these documents seriously as a whole or individually

23 and I'm in a position to respond to them. And resources to deal with 90

24 different detailed reports of police officers would strain any system.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: But your point was that you got them before the

1 summer break, and really, we've -- you know, there is a time-scale here

2 that has to be met, and that seems to me a not unrealistic notice to give

3 you of these documents.

4 MR. NICE: I think I'd better make the point clear, because I

5 think sometimes the Chamber is unaware of realities. First of all, we got

6 some of them before the summer break. When they're disclosed by the

7 accused they're delivered in a batch, untranslated, unsorted, and

8 impossible to deal with, save by an enormous exercise of sifting first by

9 Ms. Dicklich and her team. Their resources are not infinite. At the same

10 time as that material was coming in, material was coming in for other

11 witnesses. There is simply a limit to what is possible. And the Chamber

12 can be quite sure that the available resources are fully deployed in

13 working in what we hope is the best ordered way and the most rational way

14 on the material as it comes in. And there are occasions when -- am I in a

15 position to deal with 90 police reports in detail? I'm not.

16 JUDGE KWON: Let's deal with that when it arises.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Kwon, could I just remind you of

18 one thing, you personally, because Mr. Bonomy was not present at the time,

19 that while Mr. Nice's exhibits were being shown about Kosovo, 600.000

20 pages were given to me. And when I asked several times when I would be

21 given time to read this, I would invariably receive an answer from Mr. May

22 that you would look into the matter. As you know, I never got that time.

23 And I think that it is wholly inappropriate for Mr. Nice to ask for some

24 time and to have any kind of understanding for such requests on his part.

25 And now in relation to what he had to say about the witness list,

1 could we just move into private session for 30 seconds, please?

2 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Private session.

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10 [Open session]

11 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

12 MR. NICE: If the Chamber has not get shredded -- or had shredded,

13 for want of space, its Jasovic files of one kind or another, it might be

14 worth retaining them, because they may, of course, become valuable, or

15 useful, in any event, as tools in the cross-examination of this witness.

16 But I know there were a large number of files produced by both sides.

17 JUDGE KWON: And how long do you expect your cross-examination of

18 Mr. Delic would last?

19 MR. NICE: Assuming on the basis -- not assuming. On the basis

20 that I would be granted leave to cross-examine on three topics, I would

21 have still hoped, subject to his response to my questions, to deal with it

22 in one session. Because the Ashdown point, I think, I'm going to be in a

23 position to put very succinctly, were I granted leave, assuming we're on

24 the basis of -- we're allowed to proceed on the basis of parts only of the

25 video, the whole video having been made available to the parties by then.

1 The other topics, I suspect, will be capable of being dealt with pretty

2 swiftly. And it's certainly my intention to deal swiftly in the case of a

3 witness who comes back for further cross-examination, even if the initial

4 requirement that he come back for further cross-examination at a postponed

5 date was not mine but a decision of the Court.

6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Nice.

7 Mr. Janicevic, we'll adjourn for today and for the week, and we'll

8 resume on Wednesday next week. But due to the circumstances of this case,

9 we have to hear the evidence of Mr. Delic, with your evidence being

10 interposed. So I think we may be able to begin your evidence again in the

11 second session or in the third session. If you could make yourself

12 available at that time, please. So at least at 10.30.

13 We'll adjourn.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.02 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 28th day of

16 September 2005, at 9.00 a.m.

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